#clojure – 2010-08-03

2010-08-03

00:31	notsonerdysunny	I was looking around for sexp like serialization this morning and found
00:31	notsonerdysunny	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_S-expressions
00:32	notsonerdysunny	http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/sexp.html
00:32	notsonerdysunny	it would be nice to have clojure-based interface for it ..
00:48	notsonerdysunny	whats a good way to do clojure and java native stuff ?
00:49	qbg	JNI?
00:50	notsonerdysunny	yea I know there is JNI and JNA(supposedly newer stuff) .. but I also found a couple of clojure jn[ai] stuff on the clojars .. I was wondering if anybody had any input on which is a good one to use
02:50	slyrus	hrm... one of the differences between flet and labels in common lisp is that in the bodies of flet'ed functions, the function name isn't bound to the local function. is there a way to do similar in clojure?
02:51	slyrus	an enclosing let to squirrel away the old binding?
02:51	slyrus	works, but I don't suppose there's a more flet-y form I'm missing?
02:55	Chousuke	slyrus: can't you do just (let [foo (fn ...)] ...)
02:56	tomoj	slyrus: why does it matter? just curious, not saying it doesn't
02:56	slyrus	I sure can Chousuke, thanks!
02:57	slyrus	tomoj: if I want to locally rebind a function and be able to call the original function from the new function body, I can't using letfn.
02:57	tomoj	do you often want to do that?
02:58	tomoj	oh, I think I see
02:58	slyrus	(defn foo [x] (+ 17 x)) (let [foo (fn [x] (+ 33 (foo x)))] (foo 3))
02:58	tomoj	right
02:58	slyrus	sure, I'm adding 33 and 17 to numbers all the time!
02:58	slyrus	:)
02:58	tomoj	just never wanted to shadow like that before
02:58	tomoj	but I think I can imagine situations where it would be useful
02:59	Chousuke	slyrus: I'd rather do (let [orig-foo foo] ...). Shadowing like that is pretty confusing
02:59	brehaut	would letfn be closer ?
03:00	slyrus	brehaut: letfn doesn't work as it would just recursively call foo
03:00	brehaut	oh right
03:06	slyrus	and my nasty little hack is foiled by the fact that I can't let a qualified name. oh well, it was probably a bad idea anyway.
03:29	raek	good morning
03:30	brehaut	hi raek
03:43	brehaut	paredit bindings in counterclockwise have made my day
03:47	esj	morning all
04:04	LauJensen	Good morning all
04:05	LauJensen	(incl. esj)
04:05	brehaut	evening
04:11	sid3k	morning guys
04:12	LauJensen	Morning sid3k :)
04:14	esj	yo
04:14	xkb	yoyo
05:28	cais2002	how do I convert a str to a number ?
05:31	AWizzArd	cais2002: use the wrapper classes Integer, Long, Byte, etc.
05:31	AWizzArd	,(Integer/parseInt "55")
05:31	clojurebot	55
05:32	cais2002	-> (Integer. "55")
05:32	sexpbot	=> 55
05:32	cais2002	is there a simpler way?
05:32	cais2002	,(str 55)
05:32	clojurebot	"55"
05:32	tomoj	there's (read-string "55"), but...
05:33	AWizzArd	this is less efficient, but if you are not in a tight loop it might be okay
05:34	tomoj	how exactly is (Integer. "55") complicated?
05:34	AWizzArd	cais2002: a pretty safe way for conversion is instantiating a BigDecimal, as this can eat all your numbers
05:35	cais2002	tomoj: i thought there is some "native" function to do it
05:35	tomoj	java hater? :)
05:35	zmila	,(type (load-string "1234"))
05:35	clojurebot	DENIED
05:36	zmila	,(load-string "1234")
05:36	clojurebot	DENIED
05:37	tomoj	-> (class (read-string "1234"))
05:37	sexpbot	=> java.lang.Integer
05:37	AWizzArd	load-string is about the most inefficient way to do this
05:38	tomoj	something like (read-string "{}") will work fine until you try to use it as a number, (Integer. "{}") will properly blow up
05:38	zmila	i supose so too :) but i think it's the way, when you don't know which datatype is there in the string
05:38	zmila	it's like (eval ) ?
05:39	AWizzArd	converting 10000 strings to a number via load-string: 400 msecs, read-string: 14 msecs, BigDecimal.: 5.8 msecs, Integer/parseInt: 3.6 msecs
05:39	tomoj	huh
05:39	tomoj	why does it take so long for a number to eval to itself?
05:40	tomoj	oh, load-string isn't (comp eval read-string)
05:41	AWizzArd	right
05:42	tomoj	.. (load-string "1.234 (launch-the-nukes)")
05:42	AWizzArd	Really, if it is an int, just call Integer. on it.
05:44	cais2002	yeah, I will just use Integer/parseInt
05:44	zmila	and wrap into (catch NumberFormatExc)
05:45	cais2002	ah yes
06:26	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Did you bench Integer. vs Integer/parseInt ?
06:29	LauJensen	,(time (dotimes [_ 1e6] (Integer. "55")))
06:29	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 157.381 msecs"
06:29	LauJensen	,(time (dotimes [_ 1e6] (Integer/parseInt "55")))
06:29	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 106.514 msecs"
06:33	tomoj	that's odd
06:34	bobo_	LauJensen: hows the plans for next round of conj-labs going? saw something about trouble finding a venue?
06:35	LauJensen	bobo_: Germany has proven to be a challenge in terms of finding a good venue. We're teamed up with InnoQ who have been doing a lot of ground work, so I hope to be able to release a venue and date before long - hopefully no longer than 1 week from today
06:35	bobo_	great!
06:37	LauJensen	Yea we're really putting in some work to ensure that it indeed becomes 'great' :)
06:37	bobo_	:-)
06:37	esj	LauJensen: where is the content going to be aimed ?
06:38	LauJensen	esj: We'll aim it at the attendants :9
06:38	LauJensen	What do you mean?
06:38	esj	hahahahah
06:38	esj	i mean are you giving 1). An introduction to Clojure, 2). An exploration of certain ideas in Clojure 3). Advanced concurrency coding etc etc ?
06:39	AWizzArd	LauJensen: yes, I tried Integer. vs. Integer/parseInt, and they are virtually equally efficient
06:40	LauJensen	Its a little early to say, but I think the level will not be as high as the Brussels session (which was über advanced), but it will be more catering to people looking to acquire the skills for professional use. Since we work 'lab style' we accomodate the individual attendants though, so everybody gets challenged (a little more than they hoped for) :)
06:40	tomoj	parseInt does seem to be reliably a little tiny bit faster to me, wonder why
06:40	LauJensen	AWizzArd: I always found parseInt to be about 30% faster
06:41	tomoj	I'm seeing more like 3%
06:42	AWizzArd	LauJensen: please try (time (dotimes [i 10000000] (Integer. (str i ))))
06:42	tomoj	it must be that new is slower than . ?
06:43	AWizzArd	and (time (dotimes [i 10000000] (Integer/parseInt (str i))))
06:43	AWizzArd	,(time (dotimes [i 100000] (Integer. (str i ))))
06:43	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 58.767 msecs"
06:43	AWizzArd	,(time (dotimes [i 100000] (Integer/parseInt (str i ))))
06:43	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 58.959 msecs"
06:44	Bahman	Hi all!
06:44	LauJensen	Bahman: yo
06:44	Bahman	Hi there LauJensen!
06:44	tomoj	still ~3% faster it seems
06:45	LauJensen	Yea also a little faster locally
06:45	tomoj	wonder what new does
06:45	LauJensen	(defn new [i] (Thread/sleep 30) (Integer/parseInt i))
06:46	LauJensen	But yea, its a good question
06:46	tomoj	NewExpr has a whole lot inside
06:47	tomoj	HostExpr does too, though
07:20	jave	I'm trying to do the conjure ajax tutorial, but I'm failing. are the src for the tutorial up somewhere?
07:26	LauJensen	jave if by conjure you mean Clojure, then I am not aware of any ajax tutorial, got a link?
07:27	jave	no I mean the conjure web framework that uses clojure
07:27	jave	http://github.com/macourtney/Conjure
07:28	jave	it seems neat, but I have aparently missed to perform some step when I tried the ajax tutorial
07:29	LauJensen	Ah ok, sorry then Im blank, have never tried it
07:29	jave	np
07:29	LauJensen	Though I think your the 2nd guy this week to come in here and complain about it
07:30	jave	oh
07:30	jave	I'm not complaining mind you
07:30	LauJensen	alright - Im just saying, I dont think you're the first guy to have trouble with it
07:31	jave	yep
07:32	jave	I always wanted to do web coding in lisp, the goal is close at hand, yet far...
07:32	tomoj	every time I see that "A Rails like framework for Clojure" I get a little crazy
07:33	LauJensen	jave: A ton of us are doing web coding in Clojure, just not using Conjur
07:33	somnium	I think there's a tutorial for sproutcore + compojure somewhere
07:33	jave	cool
07:33	lenw	http://wiki.sproutcore.com/Todos+06-Building+with+Compojure+and+MongoDB
07:33	LauJensen	jave: http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2009/12/dynamic-interactive-webdevelopment.html
07:33	bobo_	i have some ajax stuff i made in compojure/ring/hiccup, if thats to any help. been meening to write something about it but havent yet
07:33	LauJensen	I did that a while ago, which is a pretty decent intro to webdev
07:34	LauJensen	jave: http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2009/12/beating-the-arc-challenge-in-clojure.html that also shows off some compojure, though its a little outdated. If you want some up to date code, you could check out the source for bestinclass.dk
07:35	bobo_	is bestinclass written with compojure?
07:35	LauJensen	bobo_: Not, Enlive and Moustache
07:35	LauJensen	s/Not/No
07:35	LauJensen	I used to use Compojure only for webdev, but when they stripped out all the guts and implemented it as ring middleware, I went with Moustache - Though I think both a fun to work with
07:38	jave	so, most of the framework uses "ring" then?
07:38	LauJensen	yes
07:39	jave	and compojure, does it have some jsquery bindings?
07:39	LauJensen	jsquery?
07:39	jave	jquery, sorry
07:40	bobo_	jave: no not realy
07:40	bobo_	not that ive found atleast.
07:40	bobo_	but you can still use it
07:40	LauJensen	Im not sure. But for one thing, jquery is pretty concise in its own right, and 2nd, it would be easy to wrap some of the syntax
07:40	bobo_	i wrote my javascript in javascript
07:40	tomoj	bobo_: hurrah
07:40	bobo_	jquery is imho great as it is.
07:40	somnium	javascript doesnt get enough love
07:41	jave	I'm a bit rusty with web dev
07:41	jave	did used cocoon a lot before
07:41	jave	I liked the continuations aproach
07:41	lenw	LauJensen: is there a good intro on using Enlive and Moustache together ?
07:41	LauJensen	lenw: I wouldn't say 'good', but I talked about it some on my site when I relaunched it
07:42	lenw	thanks checking it out now
07:42	somnium	http://box2d-js.sourceforge.net/
07:42	somnium	^^ just saw this today, is there anything like this for swing/awt?
07:42	LauJensen	lenw: http://bestinclass.dk/blog.html, post #2 and #3 talk about some of the work that went into converting a wordpress blog and relaunching it on Moustache
07:42	LauJensen	(all source is open)
07:43	lenw	LauJensen: thanks
07:43	LauJensen	np
07:43	somnium	ah, jbox2d
09:11	mister_m	does clojure support tail call optimization?
09:16	dnolen_	mister_m: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/0de2afb8995c77b5
09:20	mister_m	so due to the JVM, the answer is no; use recur
09:24	LauJensen	yup
09:24	LauJensen	which works out to be quite painless
09:25	fogus	Call me crazy, but I like the explicit recur over the implicit recursive self-call
09:25	mister_m	I could do either personally, but the explicit recur does remove any ambiguity I suppose
09:25	LauJensen	fogus: thats crazy talk
09:26	mister_m	off to work I go, thanks for the link to that discussion
09:27	fogus	if we ever get generalized TCO in the JVM, then maybe we should have another special form (tail-to ...) for the tail call ;-)
09:27	fogus	mister_m: Yeah, the non-tail error is a win IMO
11:38	Bootvis	how can I manipulate array maps?
11:40	lpetit	Bootvis: I don't understand the question
11:42	Bootvis	I understand, say I get an clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap from some API and I want to no the first element
11:42	Bootvis	what should I do
11:42	Bootvis	this doesn't work
11:42	Bootvis	,(first {"foo" "bar"})
11:42	clojurebot	["foo" "bar"]
11:43	nipra	,(seq {"foo" "bar"})
11:43	clojurebot	(["foo" "bar"])
11:43	lpetit	Bootvis: sure, Maps (in general) are not sequential
11:43	LauJensen	,(vals {"one" "two"})
11:43	clojurebot	("two")
11:44	LauJensen	like lpetit said, its a different thing, its key/val based
11:44	lpetit	Bootvis: PersistentArrayMap, though, will preserve the order of the keys, based on insertion, but it's dangerous to rely on it, I think
11:44	LauJensen	,(assoc {:one 1 :two 2} :two 3)
11:44	clojurebot	{:one 1, :two 3}
11:45	lpetit	Bootvis: since the assoc, etc. functions on maps will "promote" array maps to hash-maps depending on their size
11:45	LauJensen	lpetit: Hi Laurent, hows it going?
11:46	lpetit	(LauJensen: hi ! Good, and you ?
11:46	Bootvis	ok I'm experimenting with compojure and if I POST a form it returns an array map with the name and content of the fields paired
11:46	LauJensen	Yea Im doing good thanks. Hows your path-finding in Lyon coming along?
11:46	Bootvis	so I sure hope that ordering is preserved
11:46	LauJensen	Bootvis: IIRC thats also a key value pair
11:47	lpetit	Bootvis: do you really need to know the order the pairs were inserted in ?
11:48	Bootvis	I guess so, I should know which field has which value
11:48	lpetit	Bootvis: I think you don't get what maps are. They are associative data structures: they associate a key with a value: { "key1" "val1", "key2" "val2" } .
11:49	lpetit	Bootvis: array maps are not different in this area, it's just an implementation detail that they are based on arrays internally
11:49	Bootvis	ok so that is preserved
11:50	lpetit	Bootvis: so you just call seq on your map and you'll get a seq of pairs of key/value, (the pair will be in a vector) :
11:50	lpetit	,(seq {"k1" "v1" "k2" "v2"})
11:50	clojurebot	(["k1" "v1"] ["k2" "v2"])
11:50	Bootvis	ok I thought that maybe I could access it directly
11:51	Bootvis	thanks for your time
11:51	lpetit	Bootvis: why in first place did you know that you got an array map ?
11:52	Bootvis	I used (class object)
11:53	lpetit	hmm
11:53	lpetit	,(type {"k" "v"})
11:53	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
11:53	AWizzArd	,shuffle
11:53	clojurebot	#<core$shuffle clojure.core$shuffle@1ae3e6d>
11:53	arkh	is it convention to use defn for java methods even if you don't expect the return value to change? E.g. (defn localhost [] (. InetAddress getLocalHost)) could just as easily be (def localhost (. InetAddress getLocalHost))
11:54	lpetit	Bootvis: hint = use type instead of class. It will behave the same as class for pure java objects, but it will get you the clojure type which is a more interesting value in some cases
11:55	lpetit	arkh: not necessarily, what made you think so ?
11:55	arkh	http://github.com/aberant/clojure-networking/blob/master/server/udp.clj
11:56	Bootvis	lpetit: thanks
11:56	arkh	lpetit: aberant's usage wraps methods with defn and values-only with def
11:57	lpetit	arkh: I do not have strong opinions on this. Don't know of any convention rule 'bout this
11:57	arkh	lpetit: ok - thank you for looking it over
12:30	lpetit	arkh: np
13:46	tnks	new to clojure, is there a decent date/time implementation, or should I use Jota (sp?)
13:47	tnks	I guess it's JodaTime.
13:48	technomancy	yes, don't use java.util.Date for any nontrivial calculation.
13:53	danlarkin	that's right... use chrono!!!11
13:57	tnks	danlarkin: thanks, just what we were looking for
13:58	danlarkin	oh, I was actually being facetious, I don't think chrono has seen much effort
14:34	dnolen	tnks: you should checkout clj-time, it's built on joda http://github.com/clj-sys/clj-time
14:35	technomancy	which is really just chrono with a crappier name, innit?
14:37	LauJensen	technomancy: sure, but just go with my fork instead then "timejure"
15:05	technomancy	oh snap
15:31	homie	hulloo
15:31	homie	can someone help me setup clojure for emacs ?
15:31	homie	i repeated the steps in the movie to set it up
15:32	homie	i put the clojure script in my .emacs.d folder which is on a laod-path
15:32	homie	and the script runs itself from console
15:32	homie	the part of my .emacs which tells (require 'clojure-autoload) fails though
15:33	homie	sorry i meant (require 'clojure-auto)
15:34	LauJensen	homie: which movie?
15:37	rbe	hi
15:38	homie	i get this here http://paste.lisp.org/+2FAP
15:38	rbe	i tried to use an auto-gensym in a macro like this: `(let [x# '(1 2 3)] (first x#)) but i can just access x# without a function call… why?
15:38	homie	clojure on blip.tv
15:39	LauJensen	homie: I havent seen that. I have a video on my blog as well you can check if, it you reach a dead end
15:39	LauJensen	,`(let [x# [1 2 3]] x#)
15:39	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [x__501420__auto__ [1 2 3]] x__501420__auto__)
15:40	LauJensen	rbe: try (defmacro mac [] `(let [x# [1 2 3]] (first x#)))
15:40	LauJensen	then run (mac)
15:41	rbe	laujensen: thanks… i am using a list not a vector… then i get 'unable to resolve symbol x# in this context'
15:42	rbe	the list is a list of forms and i want to evaluate the first
15:42	LauJensen	rbe: also with this (defmacro mac [] `(let [x# '(1 2 3)] (first x#))) ?
15:42	rbe	works also… hm
15:46	arkh	what is the difference between nil and NIL?
15:47	cemerick	There is no NIL in clojure.
15:48	arkh	sorry ... I was reading the code for fill-queue (and seque) and didn't see this: "NIL (Object.) ;nil sentinel since LBQ doesn't support nils"
15:48	rbe	laujensen: this works but does not evaluate the form: (defmacro mac [& a] `(loop [forms# '~a] (let [f# (first forms#)] f#))) .. (mac (+ 1 1) (+ 2 2)) == (+ 1 1)
15:48	rbe	adding ~ gives unresolved symbol:
15:48	rbe	user=> (defmacro mac [& a] `(loop [forms# '~a] (let [f# ~(first forms#)] f#)))
15:48	rbe	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: forms# in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:217)
15:49	LauJensen	rbe: ~'a is a symbol defined in that namespace, ~a is your argument
15:50	rbe	but i used '~a as i want the quoted list so not all forms get evaluated
15:50	rbe	using ~a gives same error
15:51	raek	a symbol# can only be used within the syntax-quote
15:51	rbe	seems that ~(first forms#) causes the error
15:51	raek	it doesn't make sense to mix compile-time and run-time this way
15:51	rbe	raek: my macro starts with `
15:52	LauJensen	rbe: ~(first...) kills the `
15:52	raek	yes, but the second occurance is in the unquoted (compile time) section
15:52	raek	I just joined, so I did not catch what the macro should do
15:52	LauJensen	rbe: Keep in mind. Macros should be at a minimum in your code. Anything which doesnt require dynamic evaluation should be in an fn
15:53	LauJensen	raek will take it from here :)
15:53	raek	LauJensen: if you say so... :)
15:53	Chousuke	you probably want to loop over the forms in the macro, not in the generated code
15:53	LauJensen	raek well since you jumped in the middle of it, I'll assume you have more time on your hands than I :)
15:54	rbe	i just tried to implement a macro evaluating any given forms so i can play around with debugging or statistics… log any form and its execution time
15:54	Chousuke	ie, something like (defmacro foo [& forms] `(do ~@(for [form forms] `(frobnicate form))))
15:54	rbe	looks interesting chosuke
15:55	Chousuke	and if the autogensyms don't work for you, you can always use manual gensyms :P
15:55	raek	rbe: evaluate when? compile-time? run-time?
15:56	rbe	run-time
15:56	raek	if you just want to wrap some code, try making a function taking a function first
15:56	kiemdoder	what is the difference between (nth 2 [1 2 3]) and ([1 2 3] 2) ?
15:56	rbe	raek: i wanted to print the form, its result and the time … so i think it must be macro?
15:56	raek	([1 2 3] 2] <=> (get [1 2 3] 2), iirc
15:56	Chousuke	kiemdoder: no real difference.
15:57	raek	get and nth behave differently when the index is out of bounds
15:57	Chousuke	kiemdoder: however, if it's (nth x somevar) vs (somevar x) there is an obvious difference :)
15:57	raek	if you want to print the form, I would have to
16:00	raek	(defmacro time-and-print [& forms] `(do (prn '~forms) (time (do ~@forms))))
16:00	raek	maybe something like that
16:01	rbe	ok and now for every form… not the total result
16:01	rbe	;)
16:01	raek	user=> (time-and-print (+ 1 2 3))
16:01	raek	((+ 1 2 3))
16:01	raek	"Elapsed time: 0.104762 msecs"
16:01	raek	6
16:01	raek	ah
16:01	Chousuke	rbe: just add a for
16:02	raek	maybe it would be easier to make a macro that does this for one form, and then another that does it for all
16:02	Chousuke	rbe: you can just do something like (defmacro log-form [& forms] `(do ~@(for [form forms] `(do (log '~form) ~form)))))
16:04	rbe	yes… looks very good
16:04	Chousuke	which for (log-form (+ 1 2) (* 2 3)) generates (do (do (log '(+ 1 2)) (+ 1 2)) (do (log '(* 2 3)) (* 2 3)))
16:04	Chousuke	though that macroexpansion is manual so I make no guarantees :P
16:05	rbe	had to learn that ` can be used more than once ;)
16:05	Chousuke	` actually has nothing to do with macros, really
16:05	Chousuke	it's just a convenient tool when you're writing them :P
16:06	Chousuke	but all macros are possible to write without `
16:06	rbe	chousuke: why? i just started working with clojure and have to read 3 books i bought recently ;)
16:06	Chousuke	rbe: ` is a way of constructing code structures easily
16:07	rbe	ok.. what does it do?
16:07	Chousuke	I mean, (let [a 5] `(* 1 2 ~a)) constructs the list (clojure.core/* 1 2 5)
16:07	raek	user> (macroexpand-1 '(log-form (+ 1 2) (* 2 3)))
16:07	raek	(do (do (user/log (quote (+ 1 2))) (+ 1 2)) (do (user/log (quote (* 2 3))) (* 2 3)))
16:08	Chousuke	but you can do that just as well by doing (let [a 5] (list '* 1 2 a))
16:08	Chousuke	well, except hm
16:08	rbe	ah… something like a short form?
16:08	Chousuke	the symbol won't get namespace qualified
16:08	rbe	when i do `(+ 1 1) i get (clojure.core/+ 1 1)
16:09	Chousuke	yeah, it does namespace resolution
16:09	raek	the symbols gets namespace qualified
16:09	raek	this is to avoid symbol capture
16:09	Chousuke	rbe: you can think of it as a convenient template syntax
16:09	Chousuke	rbe: but remember that clojure code is made of data structures, not text, so it's a template for a data structure
16:10	Chousuke	and where you need such a data structure, you can use `
16:10	rbe	8-)
16:10	rbe	thanks
16:10	Chousuke	it works with all clojure data structures too, not just lists
16:11	Chousuke	,(let [a 5] `[a b ~a])
16:11	clojurebot	[sandbox/a sandbox/b 5]
16:12	raek	,`(let [a 1] a)
16:12	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [sandbox/a 1] sandbox/a)
16:12	raek	ah
16:12	Chousuke	that would actually not work if you emitted that from a macro :)
16:12	raek	...and then the compiler refuses to do that let
16:12	raek	yes
16:13	Chousuke	yeah. It's a nice solution for the name capture problem.
16:13	raek	I was thinking if that logic was built in into syntax-quote
16:13	raek	but i see now that it does not have too
16:13	raek	very.
16:13	raek	has this been implemented in another lisp?
16:14	Chousuke	I don't think so
16:15	raek	so rich solved this ancient problem as well by himself?
16:15	raek	man, he
16:16	Chousuke	I don't know. Maybe he was inspired by something
16:16	raek	's smart
16:16	raek	clojure sure has a lot of goodies in it
16:16	Chousuke	I don't know of other lisps implementing Clojure's solution, but that doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere :D
16:17	fogus_	Let Over Lambda has a macro defmacro! (I think that was the name, I do not have my copy here) that works in a similar way
16:17	Chousuke	Yeah, that's what I like most about it.
16:17	Chousuke	lots of small things that by themselves are nothing special
16:17	Chousuke	but then it just kind of works together
16:18	Chousuke	There are warts too but every language has those :P
16:19	callen-nyc	Chousuke: the first/last/nth/rest stuff can be a wee inconsistent in nomenclature.
16:19	callen-nyc	that's my only real complaint of lae.
16:19	callen-nyc	late
16:20	rbe	so long … thanks a lot guys… i've got to sleep now
16:20	rbe	see you
16:26	kiemdoder	callen-nyc, I agree there often seem to be more than one way to do the same thing which can make it a bit challenging to learn
16:27	kiemdoder	it being clojure
16:39	triyo	Does anyone else think this is cool http://hackage.haskell.org/package/DSTM-0.1.1 a framework for using STM within distributed systems?
16:40	callen-nyc	kiemdoder: yedah.
16:40	callen-nyc	er, yeah.
16:40	callen-nyc	kiemdoder: you get past it, but it's kind of _ compared to [listy, list][slicey]
16:40	callen-nyc	or object[slice]
16:48	eckroth	how do I import/use/whatever a record (from defrecord) into another namespace?
16:55	eckroth	answer to my question: http://tech.puredanger.com/2010/06/30/using-records-from-a-different-namespace-in-clojure/
17:00	hoeck	triyo: yes!
17:02	triyo	hoeck: came across it earler today and thought that it might be something nice to see in Clojure in the future for satisfying distributed models.
17:06	cemerick	I remember suggesting a while back that require be invoked for the namespaces corresponding to each imported class. That was back when gen-class was the only game in town, so now I'd suggest adding the namespaces corresponding to the package of imported classes. Then (import 'some.package.YourRecord) would automatically attempt to require some.package.
17:25	eckroth	any opinions? is enclojure better than emacs/slime for larger projects? is enclojure stable, fast?
17:29	eckroth	enclojure does not have a paredit equivalent, I'm assuming
17:32	dnolen	eckroth: enclojure certainly seems featureful and stable. tho because of the Java GUI I don't find it particularly fast on my machine.
17:33	dnolen	eckroth: seems more compelling when you want to integrate with lots of Java libraries.
17:33	eckroth	dnolen: thanks. that's basically what I feared. I've had painful experiences with Eclipse crashing, so I generalize that to "all big IDEs crash too much"
17:33	eckroth	dnolen: ah, that could be useful; at the moment, I'm mostly thinking "big clojure project", as in, lots of namespaces and files
17:34	dnolen	eckroth: I've never had Enclojure crash on me but again I don't use it much. Overall Netbeans seems nicer to me to me than Eclipse.
17:35	dnolen	eckroth: one thing that I like about Enclojure is excellent symbol navigation
17:35	eckroth	dnolen: unfortunately, I basically use one IDE for each separate development language; I use Qt Creator for C++ projects, Eclipse for Android projects, Vim for PHP projects (on the server), and Emacs for Clojure projects
17:35	eckroth	dnolen: I noticed that in the screenshots
17:36	dnolen	eckroth: that doesn't seem that weird to me :) go with the best tools for the platform.
17:37	eckroth	dnolen: yeah but they each have their own style (key combinations, for example); keeps me multifunctional (I get to avoid the Vim vs. Emacs debate, for example) but seems a bit of a shame that I can't customize just one environment and be happy
17:37	dnolen	eckroth: three things that would make Enclojure more compelling to me: 1) eval last sexpr, 2) macroexpand last sexpr, 3) paredit
17:38	eckroth	dnolen: besides key combinations, each have their own git integration :) magit seems the best so far
17:38	eckroth	dnolen: yeah I use (1) and (3) all the time; too bad for enclojure
17:39	dnolen	eckroth: yeah magit is great. I keep meaning to learn some elisp to try my hand at improving Emacs/Clojure. too little time in the day.
17:51	flintf	I haven't been able to get enclojure working
17:52	flintf	Well I did awhile ago, but when I tried to use it recently it wouldn't work...
17:53	eckroth	flintf: that's the kind of annoyance that I want to avoid
18:04	defn	im so firmly embedded in emacs that another IDE wouldnt probably entice me
18:04	technomancy	not even Genera?
18:05	Raynes	defn: Didn't we argue over this a while back where you said that I would be silly to not jump at a nice Clojure IDE just because I liked emacs?
18:07	defn	yes we did
18:07	defn	i concede
18:07	defn	i play devil's advocate on that topic though
18:07	defn	simply because...well...diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks
18:08	rhudson	flintf: at some point it seemed enclojure worked with netbeans 6.8 but not 6.9 -- I don't know if that's been addressed yet
18:08	defn	technomancy: should i know that reference? I'm not familiar
18:09	qbg	Genera might be awesome if it worked with Clojure
18:09	defn	link please?
18:09	technomancy	it was before your (and my) time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_(operating_system)
18:09	defn	oh!
18:10	defn	well color me young
18:39	defn	http://bigthink.com/davidheinemeierhansson
18:39	defn	oops
19:19	slyrus	yay. SMILES parsing support completed.
19:29	gfrlog	is it possible to eval code within a different namespace?
19:29	gfrlog	particularly one created at runtime
19:45	danielfm	gfrlog: if you syntax quoted (with a backquote) the piece of code, I think should be possible because it expands the symbol names
19:46	danielfm	, `map
19:46	clojurebot	clojure.core/map
19:46	gfrlog	huh?
19:47	danielfm	, `(reduce + (range 10))
19:47	clojurebot	(clojure.core/reduce clojure.core/+ (clojure.core/range 10))
19:47	gfrlog	so you mean the code would have to be created in the namespace?
19:47	danielfm	see how it expanede the name of the symbols?
19:48	danielfm	for example, let's say that you have a namespace with a few functions in it
19:49	dsop	if I use (multimethod foo class), how cna I check against Seq?
19:49	danielfm	if you generate the form with this backquote thing, the symbols will also include the namespace that they belong to, e.g. my-ns/my-function
19:50	danielfm	that way you won't have to (use ..) that namespace in order to (eval ..) that form
19:51	gfrlog	the code and the namespace are both loaded at runtime though
19:54	danielfm	gfrlog: I think it doesn't matter since they can be resolved by the compiler
19:55	danielfm	gfrlog: can you share some code in http://gist.github.com/ or something?
19:57	gfrlog	yeah, one second
19:59	dnolen	technomancy: erg it's been so long since I hacked on leiningen, if I want to use leiningen from source can I just symlink the lein script in the repo and that will use the .clj files in the repo?
20:00	dnolen	I'm seeing an issue with my nativedeps plugin and need to investigate
20:03	tomoj	I noticed the readme for lein no longer explains how to do that, I think it used to
20:03	technomancy	dnolen: that should work. you can bootstrap self-install on snapshots now fwiw.
20:03	gfrlog	danielfm: here you go http://gist.github.com/507413
20:03	dnolen	actually, the problem isn't really nativedeps as far as I can tell but that the native path is no longer set in the latest version of leiningen
20:04	gfrlog	I decided it can work if I convert the code to a string, preface it with a (ns) call, and use (load-string)
20:04	gfrlog	but I don't know if that's the nicest way or not
20:06	gfrlog	I think I've always thought of the load functions as being just for loading definitions, not for evaluating code. But I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be used for evaluation
20:07	dnolen	technomancy: hmm, getting could not find file classpath errors, how does the bootstrap self-install work is that documented anywhere ?
20:08	dnolen	sorry classpath errors when symlinking lein script into my path
20:09	danielfm	gfrlog: okay, I'm looking into it
20:09	gfrlog	thanks!
20:12	danielfm	gfrlog: the first thing I think it can be improved here is the way you generate the code
20:12	danielfm	gfrlog: why not generate a plain list instead of a string?
20:13	gfrlog	they're both strings actually
20:13	gfrlog	sent over http
20:13	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
20:13	gfrlog	so they have to be strings at some point
20:16	tomoj	where does this "Overriding previous definition of reference to" thing even come from?
20:16	tomoj	can't find it in clojure or leiningen
20:16	danielfm	gfrlog: well, without change much what you did in the gist, the eval will work if you replace the (def code ..) with (def code '(my-ns/x 12))
20:17	danielfm	gfrlog: or you can just use that namespace before the eval
20:17	gfrlog	the first idea is what I'm trying to avoid
20:17	gfrlog	the second idea makes it hard to get the return value and change the namespace back
20:21	danielfm	gfrlog: well, you have to tell the compiler somehow how to find that function if it's another namespace... so I don't see a way out of this
20:23	gfrlog	if there were an (eval-in-ns) macro, that'd be fantastic
20:38	danielfm	gfrlog: something like (eval-in-ns code 'my-ns) ?
20:46	technomancy	dnolen: the self-install implementation is like seven lines, it's probably clearer than any docs on it could be.
20:46	dnolen	technomancy: swank-clojure just calls leiningen's eval-in-project correct?
20:46	technomancy	yeah
20:46	technomancy	well, lein swank does.
20:48	dnolen	technomancy: is leiningen-1.3.0 going to coincide with Clojure 1.2?
20:51	technomancy	dnolen: probably not, but lein 1.3.1 should.
20:54	dnolen	technomancy: it's still not clear to me what exactly I have to do to run leiningen from source, are you talking about self-install inside lein.sh ?
20:55	lancepantz	dnolen: it's actually really easy to bootstrap lein with cake
20:56	dnolen	lancepantz: how is that done?
20:56	technomancy	dnolen: there's like three ways to build from source now; check "Building" in the readme.
20:56	lancepantz	just do cake deps from your lein checkout and symlink the bin
20:56	technomancy	bin/lein self-install is just the easiest.
20:58	dnolen	technomancy: sorry, I'm being slow here. I haven't really messed with lein since 1.1.0
20:58	dnolen	I just needed to run lein deps
20:58	dnolen	inside the repo
20:58	dnolen	lancepantz: yeah I had basically done that
20:58	dnolen	lancepantz: technomancy: thx much
20:59	technomancy	aight; cool.
21:00	dnolen	hmmm
21:00	dnolen	lein-dev clean works, but lein-dev deps -> null pointer exception
21:03	gfrlog	danielfm: yes, that's the sort of thing I'd like
21:07	danielfm	gfrlog: take a look at your gist
21:13	gfrlog	danielfm: will that work without polluting the current namespace? i.e., are the effects of "use" temporary?
21:14	danielfm	gfrlog: unfortunately no, that (use ..) will do exactly what it does when used elsewhere
21:16	danielfm	gfrlog: but if you don't do that, you'd need to fully qualify the symbols in your expressions, e.g. (my-ns/my-fn ...), and also require it for eval-in-ns to work
21:20	bortreb	anyone here a paredit master?
21:21	bortreb	I'm wondering, let's say you have something like
21:21	bortreb	println 1 2 3
21:21	bortreb	how do you turn it into (println 1 2 3) in paredit-mode?
21:22	lancepantz	put your point at the start then type: (, C->, C->, C->, C->
21:22	danielfm	bortreb: select the whole thing and press M-(
21:22	tomoj`	huh, C-> is unbound for me
21:23	tomoj`	I'd use M-(, C-), C-), C-)
21:23	lancepantz	that should be C-->
21:23	lancepantz	as in right arrow
21:24	gfrlog	danielfm: I think load-string will do what I want, as long as I prefix a "(ns)" declaration
21:24	tomoj`	arrow keys are the devil :P
21:25	bortreb	no dice for either C-> or C-) for me, maybe you both have special bindings?
21:25	gfrlog	how can I check if a var has been defined/bound?
21:26	lancepantz	bortreb: they both work for me, are you sure your in paredit mode?
21:26	danielfm	here it works if I put the cursor before 'println', then M-(, then C--> 3x
21:26	danielfm	no special bindings here
21:26	danielfm	nice tip btw
21:27	tomoj	no special bindings here either, and both work
21:32	danielfm	a nice paredit cheat sheet: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html
21:32	bortreb	for some reason they don't work for me at all
21:33	bortreb	is there a way to see to what C-) is bound for me?
21:33	lancepantz	^C, ^H
21:34	tomoj	C-h k C-)
21:35	tomoj	bortreb: what's your C-h v paredit-version ?
21:36	bortreb	20
21:36	tomoj	from ELPA?
21:36	bortreb	yeah
21:37	tomoj	get rid of it, grab http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.el
21:37	bortreb	ah ok
21:37	nollidj	anyone here try to use with maven and penumbra together? i think i'm missing a little thing in my pom.xml that's preventing the native deps from being incorporated properly
21:37	lancepantz	fwiw, i'm on 20 as well
21:37	danielfm	tomoj, bortreb: in any case, I'm using the ELPA one and those key bindings work fine
21:37	tomoj	cool
21:38	tomoj	don't you have curly problems with 20?
21:38	danielfm	tomoj: I don't even know whatta hell is it.. :)
21:38	tomoj	clojure-mode detects paredit 21 or greater and fixes {}
21:38	lancepantz	my curlies don't work
21:38	lancepantz	and quotes are a pita too
21:38	tomoj	get the beta then
21:39	lancepantz	yeah, i'm going to try it out
21:39	lancepantz	i'm actually slowly trying to migrate off of elpa
21:39	yonatan_	gfrlog: i think it's (bound? foo)
21:39	bortreb	I've remapped my keys so that "9" and "(" are switched, and whenever I try to do C-h k C-), it just gives me the help as if I had typed C-h k C-)
21:39	danielfm	ahh yeah
21:39	gfrlog	'(bound? x)
21:39	gfrlog	,(bound? x)
21:39	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context
21:39	bortreb	it's like it can't see the Ctrl modifier
21:39	gfrlog	,bound?
21:39	clojurebot	#<core$bound_QMARK_ clojure.core$bound_QMARK_@18598b6>
21:39	gfrlog	I must have an old clojure
21:40	gfrlog	mine doesn't work
21:40	gfrlog	I'll use a try-catch
21:40	bortreb	in the latest clojure bound? doesn't work like that either
21:40	bortreb	it tries to evaulate the dubious symbol
21:40	lancepantz	bortreb: does it catch the npe now?
21:40	gfrlog	apparently it doesn't in clojure-bot either
21:41	gfrlog	,(clojure-version)
21:41	clojurebot	"1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
21:41	tomoj	here's my bit from init.el for paredit: https://gist.github.com/d426a96b5f5a5fca6cd6
21:42	yonatan_	,(bound? (var bound?))
21:42	clojurebot	true
21:42	yonatan_	,(bound? (var foo))
21:42	clojurebot	true
21:42	mister_m	clojure code looks a lot scarier than perl code I think.
21:43	danielfm	tomoj: thanks!
21:44	rhudson	mister_m: It gets a lot less scary once you get used to it. (Perl code stays scary, in my view)
21:50	pdk	the funky indentation style you see in a lot of lisp code is there to help deemphasize all the parens
21:51	mister_m	it's not the parens that bother me really
21:52	mister_m	all the extra symbols are what distract me, but as rhudson said, it just takes getting used to
21:52	mister_m	I'm still in the 'getting used to' period
21:52	pdk	by the by for folks using vimclojure here is there a command to reindent a whole block like in emacs
21:56	mister_m	I should try to start a project so I can do some actual coding with clojure
21:56	mister_m	instead of fooling with the REPL
21:57	rhudson	Good idea, except I would recommend "in addition to" in place of "instead of"
21:57	mister_m	rhudson, yes, that is certainly better
21:58	rhudson	One of the great things about using Clojure is you get to keep playing with the repl!
22:04	mister_m	I'm not sure if I like the Programming Clojure book very much though.
22:04	mister_m	yet
22:04	rhudson	Why not?
22:04	lancepantz	mister_m: the joy of clojure is much much better
22:05	lancepantz	i didn't like programming clojure either
22:06	mister_m	rhudson, it seems really very rushed
22:06	rhudson	I thought it was a very good intro book.
22:07	lancepantz	,(def foo (atom 0))(binding [foo (swap! foo inc)](println foo))
22:07	clojurebot	DENIED
22:08	rhudson	mister_m: what other languages do you know?
22:08	lancepantz	guess i can't def vars
22:08	mister_m	rhudson, I've used java before
22:08	tomoj	lancepantz: sexpbot will let you
22:08	lancepantz	anyways, in that above, why do i not have to dereference foo to print it?
22:08	lancepantz	sexpbot: (def foo (atom 0))(binding [foo (swap! foo inc)](println foo))
22:08	sexpbot	This command is old. Use -> now. It's a hook, so it can evaluate anything, even stuff that doesn't start with parentheses.
22:09	lancepantz	shouldn't i have to (println @foo)?
22:10	tomoj	-> (let [x (atom 0) y (swap! x inc)] (class y))
22:10	sexpbot	=> java.lang.Integer
22:10	rhudson	mister_m: I had a lot more languages, including some functional ones, before I got to Clojure, so our experience of the book is undoubtedly different.
22:11	lancepantz	so atom doesn't turn ints into refs?
22:11	tomoj	huh?
22:11	rhudson	,(println (atom 0))
22:11	tomoj	it's just that swap! returns the value, not the atom
22:11	clojurebot	#<Atom@c73a54: 0>
22:11	lancepantz	ah
22:11	rhudson	,(println @(atom 0)))
22:11	lancepantz	i see
22:11	clojurebot	0
22:12	lancepantz	right, i was misunderstanding swap
22:13	mister_m	rhudson, I'm sure that is true. I'm pretty green.
22:13	mister_m	so to speak
22:13	rhudson	mister_m: you have a lot of fun ahead of you
22:27	bortreb	how do you translate this into clojure? HttpZipLocator.class.getName()
22:28	rhudson	(.getName HttpZipLocator)
22:28	mefesto	(.getName (class HttpZipLocator))
22:29	bortreb	those are different though
22:29	bortreb	,String
22:29	clojurebot	java.lang.String
22:29	rhudson	,(.getName String)
22:29	clojurebot	"java.lang.String"
22:29	tomoj	is .class a way to get the Class object of a class? never saw that before
22:29	bortreb	,(.getName (class String))
22:29	clojurebot	"java.lang.Class"
22:29	wwmorgan	how can I do (apply concat colls) lazily?
22:30	bortreb	so which is it>?
22:30	mefesto	bortreb: rhudson is the right way to go :)
22:30	bortreb	I'll never get java and it's random bloat....
22:31	pdk	testing
22:31	mister_m	rhudson, one thing specifically I don't like about the Programming Clojure book so far, is the invocation of Java string methods while trying to teach the core language
22:31	pdk	(doc apply)
22:31	clojurebot	"([f args* argseq]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending args to argseq."
22:31	pdk	maybe you could wrap your apply form in a lazy-seq call?
22:31	pdk	(lazy-seq (apply ...
22:32	rhudson	or use lazy-cat maybe
22:32	pdk	(doc lazy-cat)
22:32	clojurebot	"([& colls]); Expands to code which yields a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the supplied colls. Each coll expr is not evaluated until it is needed. (lazy-cat xs ys zs) === (concat (lazy-seq xs) (lazy-seq ys) (lazy-seq zs))"
22:32	pdk	(doc cat)
22:32	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:32	pdk	(doc concat)
22:32	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
22:32	rhudson	... lazy-cat is a macro though, so apply won't work with it.
22:33	pdk	god damn kitty
22:33	wwmorgan	yes. And apply isn't lazy, so (lazy-seq (apply concat colls)) won't work
22:33	pdk	can't apply its talents to any work
22:35	tomoj	isn't (apply concat colls) already lazy?
22:35	tomoj	-> (take 3 (apply concat (repeatedly #(iterate inc 0))))
22:35	sexpbot	=> (0 1 2)
22:35	wwmorgan	tomoj: very interesting. I didn't know that worked :-)
22:37	tomoj	maybe that's not the laziness you're looking for?
22:38	wwmorgan	no, it's exactly right. I don't know why I thought apply couldn't be lazy
22:39	rhudson	mister_m: I don't remember that. Like where? (i have the book at hand)
22:42	tomoj`	was the lazy apply concat question answered while I was away?
22:42	tomoj	-> (first (apply concat (repeatedly #(do (println "foo") (iterate inc 0)))))
22:43	sexpbot	=> foo foo foo foo 0
22:43	tomoj	why 4 of them?
22:43	pdk	it's laughing at you
22:44	pdk	that's why it's going foo foo foo
22:44	tomoj	oh, it's because the last def for apply is ([f a b c d & args])
22:44	pdk	though im curious why this bot is different from clojurebot
22:45	tomoj	but:
22:45	tomoj	-> (first (apply concat (repeatedly (fn [] (do (println "foo") (iterate #(do (println %) (inc %)) 0))))))
22:45	sexpbot	=> foo foo foo foo 0
22:45	mister_m	rhudson, page 58 sticks out
22:45	tomoj	so isn't it already lazy enough?
23:13	mister_m	should I make some orange chicken at 10:12 at night?
23:13	mister_m	I'm tempted
23:14	mister_m	reaaaaally tempted
23:58	pdk	oh snap
23:58	pdk	how come you guys had to be meanies and not tell me about defn- earlier
23:58	pdk	i'm telling mommy
23:59	Raynes	pdk: You should just know. ;P