#clojure – 2010-08-02

2010-08-02

00:14	slyrus	ah... my old friend "error: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: PermGen space (smiles.clj:311)"
00:23	cais2002	hi guys, when does the execution of the body of defmacro occur?
00:23	Scriptor	cais2002: during compile time
00:24	cais2002	-> (defmacro ++ [& exprs]
00:24	cais2002	(if (>= 2 (count exprs))
00:24	cais2002	`(+ ~@exprs)
00:24	cais2002	`(+ ~@(first exprs) (++ ~@(rest exprs)))))
00:24	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
00:25	cais2002	at compile time exprs still has no value, right?
00:25	cais2002	is this a valid macro definition?
00:25	Scriptor	cais2002: please paste code in a pastebin, like http://pastebin.com/
00:26	cais2002	scriptor: sorry, i thought it's short enough.. will do
00:27	Chousuke	cais2002: otherwise yes, but the ~@(first exprs) is wrong and the condition looks weird.
00:28	Chousuke	or hm
00:28	cais2002	scriptor: am I correct to say that I can not rely on any run time value of the parameters in macro def?
00:28	Chousuke	maybe I just misread it.
00:28	Chousuke	yes.
00:28	Chousuke	rather, you can't rely on runtime values of the parameters
00:28	Scriptor	cais2002: you can still rely on the count, I think, since it's still a list
00:29	Scriptor	but like Chousuke said, it should be ~(first exprs)
00:30	cais2002	can you guys elaborate on "rely", (count exprs) is a type of "rely" that's allowed, but (= (first exprs) 1) is not?
00:31	Chousuke	cais2002: exprs will most likely be a sequence of symbols and/or lists
00:31	Chousuke	cais2002: though IF they are literal numbers, then the latter works too
00:31	Scriptor	cais2002: remember, exprs is unevaluated
00:31	Scriptor	say you have (my-macro (+ 2 3))
00:32	Scriptor	s/my-macro/++
00:32	Scriptor	when exprs would be a list containing +, 2, and 3
00:32	Chousuke	actually not
00:32	cais2002	chousuke: but the actual value of (count exprs) varies depending on the run time value, isn't it?
00:32	Chousuke	it would be ((+ 2 3))
00:32	Chousuke	since there's no destructuring
00:32	Chousuke	cais2002: nope
00:33	Scriptor	Chousuke: ah, good point
00:33	Chousuke	cais2002: the macro expansion is done before runtime
00:33	Chousuke	cais2002: though I suppose macro expansion could be thought of as "runtime" too since the entire language is useable already.
00:35	Chousuke	cais2002: the value of (count exprs) depends on the number of parameters you pass to the macro, but the evaluated values (the ones a normal function would see) of those parameters don't matter.
00:37	Chousuke	as long as you remember you're dealing with unevaluated code in macros, you can do anything you want to the parameters though.
00:37	TakeV	Is there a way to define a struct that extends another struct?
00:38	Chousuke	you could write a C compiler macro if you wanted :P
00:38	Chousuke	just parse a string
00:38	Chousuke	and return a function
00:38	cais2002	chousuke: here is an example that confuses me http://pastebin.com/QUNBcPrY
00:39	Chousuke	cais2002: right. the parameter to testm in the first cases is a vector of numbers, so it works.
00:39	Chousuke	cais2002: but in the last case, it's just a symbol. you can't call first or rest on a symbol
00:40	cais2002	chousuke: so it's evaluated at run time, but using the unevaluated form of the parameters?
00:40	Chousuke	hmmh
00:41	Chousuke	a macro call is expanded at macro expansion time, and then the result of the macro call is the thing that's evaluated
00:41	Chousuke	so in your case, (+ 1 2 3) and (* 2 2 3) are the things that get evaluated at runtime
00:42	Chousuke	the (def a [1 2 3]) doesn't matter at all to the macro, you can remove it and the error you get would not change.
00:44	Chousuke	though IIRC if I remember clojure's evaluation model correctly, the macro could access a from itself since it's a previously defined global constant.
00:45	Chousuke	just not through the parameter. :P
00:45	Chousuke	I mean, the testm def would have to be after the def for that to work, too
00:46	wwmorgan	cais2002: the use case for most macros is syntax transformation. If you find that you need the parameter value, you probably just want a function
00:46	cais2002	wwmorgan: I figured so. but just want to make sure that I understand how it works
00:48	cais2002	chousuke: at macro expansion time, are the parameters replaced with the actual values of the parameters verbatiam?
00:54	Chousuke	cais2002: what do you mean?
00:55	Chousuke	cais2002: the macro is given the parameters you call it with, unevaluated. Then the macro does its magic, returns some code, and that code is then either further macroexpanded or just evaluated
00:58	Chousuke	what the macro returns usually depends on the parameters you pass to the macro but that need not be the case.
00:58	Chousuke	eg. the comment macro that just returns nil :P
01:01	cais2002	chousuke: thanks, let me digest a bit
01:26	notsonerdysunny	http://github.com/relevance/labrepl/issues#issue/14
01:26	notsonerdysunny	http://osdir.com/ml/clojure/2010-07/msg00977.html
01:26	notsonerdysunny	I am a newbie to netbeans-enclojure-maven thing .. and I am trying to get labrepl working .. but have trouble ..
01:27	notsonerdysunny	I see that other people have had similar problem for over a month ..
01:28	notsonerdysunny	It seems like the problem is with the maven trying to track the latest-bleeding-edge clojure-contrib stuff.. I would like some help trying to resolve this...
01:28	notsonerdysunny	It is probably some thing very simply if you knew maven
01:28	notsonerdysunny	can anybody help me?
01:29	tomoj	notsonerdysunny: I don't understand
01:29	tomoj	labrepl doesn't specify clojure-contrib 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT as a dependency
01:30	notsonerdysunny	well my latest labrepl from git-hub is doing that
01:31	tomoj	you're getting an error that says 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT isn't found? from netbeans?
01:31	notsonerdysunny	yes only for clojure-contrib
01:32	mister_m	does clojure have list comprehensions?
01:32	tomoj	oh, maybe one of labrepl's dependencies has 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT as a dependency
01:33	notsonerdysunny	http://pastebin.org/440415
01:34	notsonerdysunny	shows the complete log of the netbeans-enclojure compile output
01:34	raek	mister_m: for
01:34	raek	,(for [x [1 2 3 4]] (inc x))
01:34	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5)
01:35	notsonerdysunny	even though it shows up as a warning only .. I get an error when I try to start the repl for the project
01:36	tomoj	what's the error then?
01:37	tomoj	hmm "[WARNING] JAR will be empty - no content was marked for inclusion!" that's odd
01:38	tomoj	well, I'm stumped, sorry, I've used neither labrepl nor netbeans
01:42	raek	S = {2x \| x e N, x^2 > 3} --> (for [x (iterate inc 0) :when (> (* x x) 3)] (* 2 x))
01:42	notsonerdysunny	tomoj: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7271654/labrepl-netbeans-enclojure-start-repl-error.png shows the screen-shot of the error-message
01:44	tomoj	... are you working on clojure inside a windows VM on an ubuntu host?
01:44	notsonerdysunny	yea
01:45	tomoj	I think things are probably a lot more likely to work on ubuntu than on windows
01:45	tomoj	(not that I think windows is causing your current problem)
01:46	notsonerdysunny	k let me give direct-ubuntu a shot ..
01:48	tomoj	I really have no idea whether your current problem is caused by windows (never used labrepl or netbeans..)
01:49	tomoj	and since it's all java I guess it shouldn't make much of a difference?
01:49	raek	is this dependent on leiningen?
01:49	tomoj	looks like it's using mvn, not lein
01:49	raek	cause iirc, windows support for leiningen is still experimental
01:49	notsonerdysunny	yes it is using mvn
02:21	notsonerdysunny	outside the topic ..
02:21	notsonerdysunny	shouldn't freenode make all the irc-log available to the search engines..?
02:22	Scriptor	notsonerdysunny: freenode itself doesn't keep logs
02:22	Scriptor	they're kept by individual users
02:22	notsonerdysunny	oh ..
02:22	notsonerdysunny	if it did it would be wonderfull!!
02:23	Scriptor	some channels have official logs though kept by some bot
02:24	Scriptor	for others, I think people like not having a permanent record of what they say, especially if it's just a conversational place
02:24	notsonerdysunny	probably #clojure should have one though .. :)
02:24	brehaut	like clojure-log.n01se.net/ ?
02:25	notsonerdysunny	oh neat there is one!
02:25	notsonerdysunny	but can the searach-engines access this log?
02:26	Scriptor	yep
02:26	notsonerdysunny	may be we should mention the link where the log is available on the topic of clojure
02:28	notsonerdysunny	i meant #clojure
03:05	cobol_expert	what's the best way to force a (map) to fully execute if all you care about is the side-effects?
03:06	tomoj	dorun
03:06	cobol_expert	(dorun (map ...)) ?
03:06	tomoj	but I usually like doseq better than (dorun (map ..))
03:07	tomoj	yeah
03:07	cobol_expert	awesome, it took me forever to figure out why my code wasn't running (i.e. map is lazy)
03:08	unfo-	cobol_expert, had the same problem :)
03:08	unfo-	latest commit to my clj project:
03:08	unfo-	(map fn coll) is LAZY -- thanks #clojure @ freenode :-)
03:08	unfo-	;)
03:09	cobol_expert	haha
03:10	tomoj	,(first (map println (range 100)))
03:10	clojurebot	0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
03:10	tomoj	so.. just be careful :)
03:28	notsonerdysunny	If all I am interested in is Clojure .. should I try to learn Maven or leiningen
03:30	bobo_	notsonerdysunny: leinigen is simpler i belive. and fits more into clojure.
03:31	bobo_	but maven is probably more usefull outside of clojure. or more used atleast.
03:31	brehaut	start with lein unless you already do a bunch of java stuff
03:32	bobo_	also, with maven, you an open the project without any fuss in netbeans/eclipse/idea. if you are gonna use one of thoose
03:44	notsonerdysunny	thanks bobo_ brehaut .. I am using netbeans .. I will start of with leiningen ..
03:45	brehaut	im using eclipse and bobo_ is right that maven would be more cleanly integrated
03:46	brehaut	but id rather be learning clojure than tools
03:47	bobo_	indeed, you should use what you used before
03:48	bobo_	i used netbeans for a while, and just used the plugin. no leinigen or maven. belive its ant based
03:48	bobo_	worked fine
04:21	Bjering	What is the clojure syntax to do: new byte[] { 0 }
04:25	Bjering	Fount it I think, this: (byte-array [(byte 0)]), right?
04:29	Fossi	that's at least a way to do it
04:33	Bjering	next question. how do I call a static java method that takes variable no of arguments?
04:34	Bjering	Trying to call a static method with this signature: public static ChannelBuffer wrappedBuffer(byte[]... arrays)
04:35	Bjering	Yet (ChannelBuffers/wrappedBuffer (.getBytes "Hello" "UTF-8") (byte-array [(byte 0)])) fails, with this: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: wrappedBuffer
04:50	raek	I think java's variadic methods work a bit differently under the hood that one would suspect
04:50	raek	Bjering: try doing (show TheClass) to check what the signature really looks like
04:51	raek	(use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
04:52	raek	^-- that's where show is
04:52	raek	[18] format : Formatter (String,Object[])
04:52	raek	that is what Formatter.format(String, Object...) looks like under the hood
04:53	sid3k	morning guys
05:03	callen-nyc	would anyone like to critique my code?
05:03	callen-nyc	trivial, but I'd like to know if I'm violating any idioms.
05:04	esj	Good Morning Noble Colleagues
05:04	callen-nyc	esj: good morning. would you like to critique some trivial code?
05:05	esj	callen-nyc: i'm truly not qualified, but I'm happy to try help
05:05	callen-nyc	esj: you read Stuart's Clojure book?
05:05	esj	yup
05:05	callen-nyc	esj: is there a clojure pastebin?
05:06	esj	gist or pastebin
05:06	callen-nyc	should I just use lisp highlighting?
05:06	callen-nyc	ah gist.
05:06	callen-nyc	esj: you know the ellipsize he demonstrated in the book?
05:06	esj	yeah, that's fine
05:06	esj	not offhand - point me in the direction, the book is right here
05:07	callen-nyc	it drove me nuts, here's my attempt at improving on it: http://gist.github.com/504370
05:07	callen-nyc	the original generated ellipsized sentences with a space between the final word and the ellipsis, drove frakking crazy.
05:07	esj	hehe
05:08	callen-nyc	went through like 4 revisions as I was getting a feel for the different way of functioning, so to speak.
05:08	callen-nyc	that's what I came up with.
05:08	callen-nyc	you want to see stuart's version?
05:08	esj	hmmm.... first idea is that you could just (str (last words) "...") to get the non-spaced ellipse
05:09	esj	and the str join " " blah blah as before ?
05:09	callen-nyc	I'm not sure the difference you're proposing
05:09	callen-nyc	edit the gist?
05:10	esj	1 sec... need to get a REPL up in front of me
05:11	callen-nyc	(ellip-2 "test1 test2 test3 test4 test5") returns "test1 test2 test3..."
05:11	esj	sorry... I misunderstood your intent
05:12	callen-nyc	esj: anything to improve on?
05:12	esj	I would say that code is good
05:12	callen-nyc	anyone care to squish my clojure neophyte ego?
05:12	Chousuke	it looks fine to me
05:12	callen-nyc	it's 3 lines :P
05:13	esj	callen-nyc: that's not how they do it here. No squishing.
05:13	brehaut	callen-nyc: its clear and it does what it needs to do right?
05:13	esj	yes
05:13	callen-nyc	brehaut: da.
05:13	brehaut	callen-nyc: no ego needs squishing then :)
05:13	callen-nyc	I'm calling it finito and proceeding then.
05:13	callen-nyc	btw I would just like to state my undying love for leiningen and personal wish that it be replicated for all programming languages.
05:14	esj	if you're a real neophyte you might like to add an optional second argument that varies the number of words taken before placing the ellipse with a default of 3
05:14	esj	but its pretty trivial
05:14	Chousuke	The only critique I can think of is that the "sentlist" name is weird :P
05:14	callen-nyc	Chousuke: pseudo-hungarian.
05:14	callen-nyc	although it's technically not a list
05:15	callen-nyc	the re-split returns some type I don't know the name of
05:15	callen-nyc	but the literal is parens.
05:15	Chousuke	yeah but what's "sent"? :/
05:15	brehaut	what about words ?
05:15	callen-nyc	Chousuke: sentence
05:15	callen-nyc	brehaut: string
05:15	callen-nyc	brehaut: words is Mr. Stuart's nomenclature, not mine.
05:15	Chousuke	it doesn't return sentences though, does it?
05:15	brehaut	oh sorry, i missed that as an arg
05:15	callen-nyc	Chousuke: it returns strings again.
05:15	callen-nyc	Chousuke: eventually.
05:16	callen-nyc	after the (str)
05:16	Chousuke	I mean the splitting operation
05:16	callen-nyc	that's re-split which is...clojure.contrib.str-utils
05:16	Chousuke	but yeah, the function is so simple the name could be frob and it wouldn't matter much
05:17	Chousuke	yeah, and it'd return a list of words, not sentences, right? :)
05:17	callen-nyc	(defn re-split "Splits the string on instances of 'pattern'. Returns a sequence of strings. Optional 'limit' argument is the maximum number of splits. Like Perl's 'split'."
05:17	callen-nyc	Chousuke: "sentence that is a list of words"
05:17	callen-nyc	Chousuke: sentlist. technically a sequence
05:17	Chousuke	you have the words and sentence backwards there I think
05:17	callen-nyc	but I don't know the bloody difference.
05:18	Chousuke	the argument is a sentence, and splitting it produces a list of words
05:18	callen-nyc	word-seq would be less moonspeaky.
05:18	callen-nyc	would you like it to be word-seq? :P
05:18	callen-nyc	it is now word-seq
05:18	Chousuke	I think I would just change words -> string/sentence and sentlist -> words
05:19	callen-nyc	it matches the actual type, and expresses what each object returned on iteration is.
05:19	Lajla	Chousuke, menekaamme yhteen gaybariin.
05:19	Chousuke	no :P
05:19	brehaut	(defn ellip-2 [words] (str (->> words (re-split #"\s+") (take 3) (str-join " ")) "…"))
05:20	callen-nyc	oi vey finnish.
05:20	brehaut	remove the need to keep handlng the name when the ops make it clear
05:20	callen-nyc	brehaut: you made it points-free 'ish?
05:20	brehaut	yeah
05:20	callen-nyc	hoopy.
05:20	brehaut	i learn FP in haskell sorry
05:20	brehaut	its not really point free
05:20	callen-nyc	brehaut: I know not technically
05:20	callen-nyc	brehaut: that's why I said ish.
05:20	brehaut	cool
05:20	Lajla	mutta anna mun käyttää sun gaybariin, gaybariin gaybariin.
05:20	callen-nyc	brehaut: I fiddled with haskell before.
05:21	brehaut	i love haskell but it breaks my brain
05:21	Lajla	Loppukaamme gaybarilla, gaybarilla gaybarilla
05:21	callen-nyc	brehaut: haskell just isn't practical.
05:21	Lajla	brehaut, does clojure support continuation passing style?
05:21	brehaut	if clojure had an ML syntax it would a) probably not work as clojure any more and b) be totally amazing
05:21	callen-nyc	brehaut: handling IO and state composition is just cantankerous.
05:21	Lajla	brehaut, eeeewwwww
05:21	brehaut	Lajla: somewhat
05:21	Lajla	ML syntax
05:22	brehaut	there is a continuations monad for haskell
05:22	Lajla	brehaut, but I said cloure.
05:22	brehaut	but it runs into no tail call removal overflows
05:22	callen-nyc	brehaut: your version is gorgeous. please make me understand ->>
05:22	callen-nyc	brehaut: trampoline?
05:22	brehaut	err sorry ment clojure
05:22	Lajla	brehaut, clojure has monads?
05:22	brehaut	Lajla:
05:22	brehaut	yes
05:22	Chousuke	in contrib
05:22	callen-nyc	Lajla: anything with first class functions has monads.
05:22	brehaut	but they are often not idiomatic
05:23	callen-nyc	Lajla: ^^ caveat.
05:23	brehaut	javascript can have monads if you are mad enough
05:23	brehaut	http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/cont_m.html
05:23	callen-nyc	brehaut: I've used currying in js before. legitimately.
05:23	Lajla	Don't monads require a (static) type system?
05:23	Chousuke	I wrote my own monad implementation for clojure a while ago
05:23	Lajla	After all, it's just a type
05:23	Chousuke	it's just a toy though, like a couple dozen lines of code :P
05:23	brehaut	Lajla: yes and no
05:23	callen-nyc	Lajla: naw. it's just state expressed in function composition
05:23	brehaut	http://brehaut.net/blog/2010/monads_redux thats my opion of monads in clojure
05:23	Lajla	Chousuke, mikä on gaybar suomeksi?
05:23	callen-nyc	Lajla: the reification of monads in the type system in haskell is an idiom, not an absolute.
05:24	Lajla	callen-nyc, that's not really a 'monad' as in Haskell though
05:24	Lajla	That's just 'a random way to use functions to express state'
05:24	brehaut	Lajla: conceptually it is and isnt
05:24	brehaut	they obey the monadic laws
05:24	Chousuke	callen-nyc: I wouldn't say "state" has anything to do with monads intrinsically
05:24	brehaut	there is conceptually a wrapper
05:24	Chousuke	callen-nyc: state is just one of the things that monads can be used to handle.
05:24	callen-nyc	Chousuke: it doesn't, I'm just speaking on how they're used
05:24	Lajla	Ahhh, obedience brings victory, and victor yis life.
05:24	Lajla	defn, you can /
05:24	callen-nyc	Chousuke: this is #clojure not #lambda-calculus :P
05:24	Lajla	I love you
05:24	Lajla	You can never ignore me
05:25	defn	awww, lambda calculus is fun!
05:25	callen-nyc	moving right along.
05:25	Lajla	defn, noooo
05:25	brehaut	callen-nyc: re what does ->> do, it stiches the first arg into as the last arg of the second form
05:25	Lajla	You cannot ignore me
05:25	Lajla	I love you
05:25	callen-nyc	brehaut: explain ->> ?
05:25	Lajla	Like Chousuke loves child porn
05:25	brehaut	and does that recursively
05:25	callen-nyc	brehaut: or at least tell me the things bloody name.
05:25	Lajla	Like Bush loves oil
05:25	callen-nyc	Lajla: shush you.
05:25	Lajla	Like women love to be raped
05:25	Chousuke	Lajla: You really need to learn to shut up
05:25	brehaut	defn you have excellent ideas
05:26	callen-nyc	brehaut: if you tell me the name, I can google it.
05:26	callen-nyc	brehaut: I cannot google ->>
05:26	Chousuke	Lajla: If you want to be weird, do that on -casual; don't be disruptive on this channel.
05:26	callen-nyc	wait a second.
05:26	callen-nyc	t?
05:26	brehaut	callen-nyc: yeah but you can search for it on clojuredocs.org
05:26	clojurebot	callen-nyc: the fn created by future (like all fns) doesn't close over dynamicly scoped stuff
05:26	callen-nyc	brehaut: you make panda sad.
05:26	callen-nyc	Sorry, couldn't find any results for your search of '->>'.
05:26	brehaut	http://clojuredocs.org/v/1660
05:26	callen-nyc	brehaut: liar.
05:27	brehaut	yeah sorry
05:27	brehaut	i browse that sight by default
05:27	brehaut	s/sight/site/
05:27	sexpbot	i browse that site by default
05:27	brehaut	ok thats just too cool
05:27	callen-nyc	AHA
05:27	callen-nyc	brehaut: shanks.
05:27	brehaut	no worries
05:27	callen-nyc	looks like a unidirectional pipe.
05:27	Chousuke	the first example has the good old redundant #() error :P
05:27	callen-nyc	I'm sure that's a facile way of putting it.
05:27	brehaut	pretty much :)
05:27	Chousuke	or well, not an error but an anti-idiom
05:28	Chousuke	oh wait never mind, I misread it
05:28	brehaut	callen-nyc: in ML family it would be a pipe or similar
05:29	Lajla	I will never abide to your twisted sense of artificial order.
05:29	Lajla	I bow to no man, not even to you.
05:29	Chousuke	Lajla: k. Then you get ignored.
05:29	brehaut	it also has a relative -> which stiches the args into the first position of the form
05:29	Lajla	Never shall I.
05:30	brehaut	you could do proper point free in clojure, but it gets bogged down in calls to partial comp and #( )
05:30	brehaut	and all the overhead of being so incredibly explicit about it all defeats the purpose
05:31	sid3k	how can I add clojure-contrib directory to classpath? I'm not familiar with java stuff
05:31	callen-nyc	brehaut: yeah I did OCaml.
05:31	brehaut	sid3k: java -cp clojure-contrib.jar ?
05:31	callen-nyc	brehaut: btw, I think 2 lines is short enough for this :)
05:31	brehaut	callen-nyc: sure :)
05:31	sid3k	brehaut: it raises an exception
05:31	callen-nyc	no.
05:31	callen-nyc	just have him use leiningen
05:32	callen-nyc	one nubcake to another. just use lein.
05:32	brehaut	yeah that works too, its my prefered solution ;)
05:32	callen-nyc	brehaut: hypocrite >:P
05:32	brehaut	accidentally overly literal
05:32	brehaut	sid3k: have you heard of leiningen ?
05:33	sid3k	what should I do put in that command instead of ? sign?
05:33	brehaut	oh you dont need the question mark
05:33	brehaut	it was intended as just the beginning of your (soon to be monsterous) incantation
05:34	brehaut	are you on linux, mac os x or another *nix?
05:34	callen-nyc	brehaut: I've named ->> The Winchester. It shoots things that way ->
05:34	sid3k	linux
05:34	defn	lol
05:34	brehaut	haha
05:34	defn	"The Winchester"
05:34	callen-nyc	damned skippy.
05:34	defn	I call -> Whistler's Mother
05:34	raek	to start a repl with contrib manually, you can do java -cp 'path/to/clojure.jar:oath/to/clojure-contrib.jar' clojure.main
05:34	sid3k	btw, what's the lein way?
05:34	callen-nyc	defn: lol.
05:34	callen-nyc	sid3k: it's a shell script you put in your bash path.
05:34	raek	*path/to
05:34	brehaut	sid3k: github.com/technomancy/leiningen
05:35	defn	would -> be an inverted whistler's mother?
05:35	raek	but with lein, it's simpler
05:35	sid3k	raek: this is what I'm looking for, thanks
05:35	defn	I can't remember which way she's sitting
05:35	raek	lein new my-proj; cd my-proj; lein deps; lein repl
05:35	brehaut	sid3k: it handles project dependancies for you
05:35	callen-nyc	sid3k: you describe project dependencies/versions/libs in project.clj, run lein deps, it gets everything going locally, then lein repl to fiddle around.
05:35	callen-nyc	sid3k: personally, I run swank-clojure -> emacs slime, but that's me.
05:36	brehaut	sid3k: related is http://github.com/liebke/cljr which is based on lein and provides the repl without needing to create a project
05:36	raek	between the cd and lein deps step, instert: "edit project.clj and specifiy dependencies (clojure and clojure contrib will be filled in by default)
05:36	callen-nyc	I am a laaaaazy bastard, so I loves me some slime.
05:36	sid3k	callen-nyc: me too?
05:36	brehaut	callen-nyc: no need to scare the new guy
05:36	callen-nyc	brehaut: I was using emacs when I was 10. :(
05:36	brehaut	callen-nyc: i used emacs for about 7 years and eventually just got sick of it
05:37	brehaut	i hate futzing with my tools
05:37	callen-nyc	brehaut: I don't use it for everything.
05:37	callen-nyc	brehaut: as do I.
05:37	callen-nyc	I just grab the right tool for what I'm doing.
05:37	callen-nyc	for workaday, I'm usually in gedit because I have to deal with a ridiculous number of files.
05:37	brehaut	for workaday im stuck in .net land so i have exactly one choice :(
05:37	sid3k	raek I'm using this line "alias clj=clj-env-dir" to start clojure
05:38	callen-nyc	brehaut: ooh. I left .NET 2 years ago.
05:38	callen-nyc	brehaut: I'm in django-land now. :)
05:38	sid3k	as I understand I should change this line too
05:38	callen-nyc	brehaut: maybe F# will saves you?
05:38	brehaut	callen-nyc: i recall having this discussion the other night :)
05:38	callen-nyc	wait a tic.
05:38	callen-nyc	brehaut: I'm terribly sleep deprived, pardon me.
05:38	brehaut	callen-nyc: only one problem, my coworkers dont understand it
05:38	brehaut	no problem
05:38	sid3k	callen-nyc: try tornado, its much better and pythonic
05:38	callen-nyc	brehaut: fuck them, do all the work yourself with F#
05:39	callen-nyc	sid3k: uh, that's not how working for a company works.
05:39	callen-nyc	sid3k: they have shit. they want shit changed. you change shit as described. you don't re-implement the whole backend on a whim.
05:39	callen-nyc	sid3k: it's a backend web service, not a high traffic frontend that needs to be evented.
05:39	sid3k	callen-nyc: in my previous job, I used django for just administration panel, it's the only thing django does well
05:39	callen-nyc	sid3k: don't make lib recommendations to people when you don't have a clue what they're working on.
05:39	callen-nyc	sid3k: we don't even use the ORM, the database is couchdb. :P
05:40	brehaut	man, i totally love couch now
05:40	callen-nyc	it's actually one of the largest clusters of couch that are publicly known.
05:40	brehaut	im still getting my head around writing the views
05:40	callen-nyc	brehaut: s'okay. it's not great when you need up to the minute stats for the frontend though.
05:40	sid3k	brehaut: btw, what should I do with lein ue what they're working on. [05:40]
05:40	sid3k	<callen-nyc> sid3k: we don't even use the ORM, the database is couchdb. :P
05:40	sid3k	ERC>
05:40	sid3k	fuck, sorry
05:40	callen-nyc	brehaut: it's great for map-reduce + views
05:40	callen-nyc	sid3k: stop while you're ahead mate :)
05:41	callen-nyc	brehaut: and general ability to do processing during high-writes
05:41	raek	sid3k: in my experience, when your code needs a jar from somewhere else, you'll want to use a project management tool lile leiningen
05:41	callen-nyc	brehaut: but not so great for recent reads.
05:41	callen-nyc	raek: ie, everything.
05:41	raek	yes, eventually...
05:41	sid3k	all right, what should I do with lein? which command I need to type?
05:41	brehaut	callen-nyc: im replacing my creeking python+django site with clojure+couch+the cgrand stack
05:41	callen-nyc	sid3k: read the readme/tutorial
05:41	raek	first, do you have the lein script?
05:41	callen-nyc	sid3k: it goes over the basic project pattern.
05:42	sid3k	yeah
05:42	sid3k	I used lein before for the swank things
05:42	raek	or, first first, do you develop under windows?
05:42	callen-nyc	brehaut: personal sites are good for experimentation like that.
05:42	raek	ok
05:42	brehaut	callen-nyc: absolutely
05:42	sid3k	nope, linux
05:42	brehaut	bbs
05:42	brehaut	getting dinner cooking
05:42	callen-nyc	brehaut: that said, be aware that couchdb is terrible for ajax stuff that needs to be up to the minute.
05:42	raek	create a new project somewhere by running "lein new <project name>"
05:43	sid3k	all right
05:43	raek	that will create a directory with a project.clj file, and some subdirectories for tge source, etc
05:43	LauJensen	raek: only true, if <project name> is something technomancy approves of
05:43	sid3k	raek: created
05:43	raek	edit the project.clj file and add any dependencies you like
05:43	raek	or change the versions of clojure and contrib
05:43	sid3k	like?
05:44	sid3k	project.clj contains this line: "org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0-beta1""
05:44	raek	you could add swank-clojrue: :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1"]]
05:44	raek	that version is fine
05:44	brehaut	callen-nyc: cheers for the heads up :) up to the minute is not what my blog is about :)
05:44	raek	I think there is a RC1 version now
05:45	brehaut	raek: you are correct
05:45	raek	after you're done with that, run lein deps, standing in the project directory
05:45	sid3k	raek: I've added that
05:45	callen-nyc	brehaut: I know, just letting you know how the battle-lines is
05:46	raek	after that, just run "lein repl" or "lein swank"
05:46	callen-nyc	brehaut: up-to-the-minute type stuff is more mongo // cassie
05:46	callen-nyc	brehaut: we might be deploying a cassandra cluster for that very reason soon, since nobody at my company seems to trust mongodb, hahaha.
05:46	sid3k	raek: completed and put Copying 3 files to /tmp/test/lib
05:47	raek	lein repl, will start a repl with those 3 jar file and the src/ directory on the class path,
05:47	sid3k	which command displays classpath in repl?
05:48	callen-nyc	that's an excellent question.
05:48	brehaut	http://clojuredocs.org/leiningen/leiningen.classpath
05:49	raek	(println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
05:50	callen-nyc	I need to stop eating raw hamburger.
05:50	brehaut	there is also clojure.contrib.classpath
05:50	raek	I hope this will get you started
05:50	raek	if you need another lib, just add it to the project.clj and restart the repl
05:50	callen-nyc	raek: ahem. lein deps first.
05:51	callen-nyc	project.clj -> lein deps -> lein repl
05:51	sid3k	tyvm for help, but I get the problem now, finally
05:52	sid3k	my cli repl already has clojure-contrib directory in its classpath
05:52	sid3k	problem is in my slime backend actually
05:53	sid3k	I guess now I can fix it, thank you
05:55	callen-nyc	I'm hard at work on the internet popularizing the use of "The Winchester" for ->>
05:55	defn	callen-nyc: hahaha
05:56	defn	callen-nyc: please try to throw in "whistler's mother" for ->
05:56	callen-nyc	defn: what's the reference for that? Blade?
05:56	defn	it's a famous painting
05:56	callen-nyc	ohhhh
05:56	callen-nyc	the painting.
05:56	defn	it's sort of wrong because i think whistler's mother is more like <_
05:56	defn	<-
05:56	callen-nyc	defn: because it roughly matches how she's sitting?
05:56	defn	but the thing is, it's so lonely
05:56	defn	just like whistler's mother
05:56	callen-nyc	defn: so do you want -> to be whistler's mother?
05:57	defn	yes i do
05:57	defn	i want it with every aching beat of my heart
05:57	defn	:D
05:57	callen-nyc	defn: tweeting nao.
05:57	callen-nyc	defn: I'll start pestering people on /r/clojure about it too.
05:57	defn	haha that's awesome
05:57	defn	thanks callen!
05:58	callen-nyc	defn: I'm aiming the tweet at Hickey
05:58	callen-nyc	it's in the ether.
05:58	defn	people arent going to go for whistler's mother on the -> i dont think
05:58	defn	but they're wrong i tell you
05:58	callen-nyc	defn: I'm just going to hover over discussions of clojure (I have a yahoo pipe that feeds me EVERYTHING) and correct everyone.
05:59	callen-nyc	defn: the more people discuss ->, the more likely it'll spread.
05:59	brehaut	i'd rather not bite your app thanks very much :P
05:59	callen-nyc	my cat agrees. our nomenclature is superior.
05:59	callen-nyc	brehaut: way to watch twitter.
05:59	brehaut	thats right
05:59	defn	ive discussed this at length with my cat as well
06:00	callen-nyc	my cat has epic whiskers
06:00	defn	great minds, as they say...
06:00	callen-nyc	she looks like a double-barreled winchester.
06:00	esj	Whisters Mother - lol
06:00	callen-nyc	defn: even furry minds.
06:01	defn	i have an idea
06:01	defn	maybe -> is iwogima
06:01	callen-nyc	HAHAHAHA
06:01	callen-nyc	no that's
06:01	callen-nyc	o\
06:01	defn	hahaha
06:01	callen-nyc	defn: get hickey to let us fuck the reader with macros so we can make o\ Iwo Jima
06:02	callen-nyc	defn: I like The Winchester because it describes what the macro does as well as what it looks like.
06:02	brehaut	i just hope nobody ever makes a nighthawks operator
06:02	brehaut	cause that would be a nightmare to type
06:02	defn	a nighthawk's at the diner operator
06:02	defn	a la Tom Waits
06:03	callen-nyc	:(
06:03	sid3k	arright, fixed finally
06:03	callen-nyc	my kitty just banged her knee :(
06:04	defn	-> is washington crossing the delaware
06:04	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context
06:04	callen-nyc	defn: no changing mind allowed.
06:04	defn	damn
06:04	callen-nyc	sexpbot: yo symbol don't exist yo.
06:05	callen-nyc	sexpbot: bad ns, bad def, bad defn, w/e
06:05	defn	i just got everyone in the office to give me famous paintings of characters facing east or to the right
06:05	callen-nyc	defn: lmfao.
06:08	defn	callen-nyc: so yes, whistler's mum and the winchester
06:08	defn	which reminds me of a cartoon i saw, looney toons from many years ago
06:08	callen-nyc	defn: righto.
06:08	defn	wherein whistler's mother pulled a winchester out from under her skirt
06:08	defn	(-> (->> ...))
06:08	callen-nyc	defn: seriously? that makes it even better.
06:10	LauJensen	Has anybody here got an idea about how to use Rings session middleware? Just decorating a handler only passes around an empty {}
06:10	brehaut	LauJensen: i've only used it via moustache
06:10	callen-nyc	defn: who's thickey? Rich's long lost evil twin?
06:10	LauJensen	brehaut: got a snippet+
06:11	brehaut	i'll make a gist or something
06:11	LauJensen	cool, thanks
06:11	LauJensen	If you have gist.el, just mark the region and hit M-x gist-region
06:12	brehaut	i dont use emacs sorry
06:12	LauJensen	np - there's a webinterface for it then
06:12	brehaut	yup
06:12	brehaut	its rough and ready http://gist.github.com/504433
06:13	defn	callen-nyc: thickey is tom hickey
06:13	defn	i believe his brother, pretty sure he did the clojure site
06:14	brehaut	LauJensen: sorry about the dreadful code, i'm only a n00b
06:14	callen-nyc	defn: fascinating. programmer or designer?
06:14	defn	callen-nyc: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4OYGjUrdllo/STNrCcmik_I/AAAAAAAAMyw/thuhBLYwhN0/s400/whistler.jpg
06:14	defn	callen-nyc: dont really know
06:14	callen-nyc	defn: hahahahaha
06:14	callen-nyc	thickey_: what are you?
06:15	callen-nyc	thickey_: and don't answer human. we knew that.
06:15	esj	callen-nyc: its Tom Hickey, as defn says
06:15	LauJensen	brehaut: the code looks alright, but Im not seeing any calls to session?
06:15	callen-nyc	esj: what not who
06:15	brehaut	oh sorry the session one in particular?
06:15	LauJensen	Yea its the session middleware which isnt behaving, everything else works alright
06:15	brehaut	ah right. sorry its late here and im getting a little daft
06:15	LauJensen	brehaut: my entire site (bestinclass.dk) is run using only enlive/moustache
06:15	LauJensen	hehe, np
06:15	brehaut	LauJensen: yup, ive read it
06:16	callen-nyc	LauJensen: that's you? nice.
06:16	LauJensen	yea
06:18	brehaut	LauJensen: you editors for clojure article was invaluable when i got sick of textmates support
06:19	LauJensen	brehaut: my editors?
06:19	LauJensen	oh that one
06:19	LauJensen	Now I remember - Glad you liked it :)
06:20	callen-nyc	LauJensen: you used the term "IDEs"
06:22	LauJensen	yea
06:22	callen-nyc	LauJensen: ooooh. you baked the site.
06:22	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I need dynamic eval demos :P
06:24	LauJensen	Yea its nice and baked. Next step is to make some fancy browsing for the content that is already there
06:25	brehaut	LauJensen: do you do all the form processing yourself or is the a lib worth investigation?
06:26	LauJensen	I did it all myself, and its all on Github
06:26	brehaut	sweet, i'll go have a read
06:26	LauJensen	Somebody submitted a much better way to handle comment/captchas in the comments on that baking article though, cool macro
06:26	callen-nyc	LauJensen: ...baked comments?
06:27	callen-nyc	hao?
06:27	LauJensen	naah, just dynamic captchas which produce lisp statements
06:27	LauJensen	But yea, actually the comments are baked in a way
06:27	callen-nyc	....eeeeeek
06:27	callen-nyc	you're dynamically producing code based on user input?
06:28	LauJensen	nope - but it was suggested, and it was good - I just didnt take the time
06:28	callen-nyc	that sounds ridiculously dangerous to me.
06:28	LauJensen	its not
06:28	LauJensen	oh wait sorry
06:29	LauJensen	I misread. The macro spits out a statement like (+ 15 (* 2 (/ 4 2))), and you supply the answer in the captcha
06:29	LauJensen	So its completely safe, and its not based on user-input
06:29	callen-nyc	oh.
06:29	callen-nyc	I misunderstood.
06:29	LauJensen	Right now my Captchas are hardcoded
06:30	brehaut	LauJensen: am i correct in my reading of the code that its flat file backed and uses a ref to hold the model in memory?
06:30	callen-nyc	LauJensen: how are the comments stored and rendered?
06:30	callen-nyc	LauJensen: what web server are you using to serve your static content?
06:30	LauJensen	sec, phone
06:31	opqdonut	what's a nice way of "calling" another clojure script
06:31	opqdonut	(use 'name.space) seems a bit ugly
06:32	callen-nyc	opqdonut: is it even possible to make it shorter than that?
06:32	opqdonut	load is okay but it wants a path. I'd rather use the name of the namespace
06:32	brehaut	opqdonut: require ?
06:32	opqdonut	require sounds better
06:32	brehaut	i'll load the other file and not polute the current namespace
06:32	opqdonut	use looks too much like an import
06:32	opqdonut	yes
06:33	callen-nyc	opqdonut: my cat agrees, use require.
06:35	defn	callen-nyc: my cat says meow
06:36	callen-nyc	defn: my cat sits in my lap when I code.
06:36	callen-nyc	defn: she likes watching my hands, especially when I'm ^ X ^ E'ing.
06:36	callen-nyc	she's sitting in my lap right now, but kinda sleepy.
06:36	callen-nyc	I've been coding all night, it's 6:36am
06:37	sid3k	callen-nyc: freelancer?
06:37	defn	She's all like "WUT THIS HOTKEY DO?"
06:37	sid3k	or remote conractted?
06:37	callen-nyc	sid3k: contractor, but it was a sunday night, I was coding for pleasure.
06:37	callen-nyc	defn: she sits her butt on my keyboard occasionally.
06:37	callen-nyc	sid3k: remote contractor, da.
06:37	sid3k	programming is the best hobbie I've know
06:37	callen-nyc	sid3k: picking up a laptop in a couple hours, then working until 8 pm
06:38	callen-nyc	and then, passing out more than likely.
06:38	callen-nyc	that or hacking moar.
06:38	callen-nyc	depends on how whiny the cat gets // wants attention.
06:38	callen-nyc	defn: :3 is now the 'kitty key'
06:39	LauJensen	callen-nyc: comments are stored directly in the html, thats the whole point of baking. NGINX is serving statics
06:39	callen-nyc	LauJensen: should've been more than 250% faster unless you have the PHP rig super-cached to hell.
06:40	callen-nyc	LauJensen: what processes the comments mate? it has to be dynamic at some point.
06:40	LauJensen	brehaut: comments are held in a memory queue and flushed once in a while to a flat-file, to avoid a race condition on the fs
06:40	LauJensen	callen-nyc: Jetty/Moustache
06:40	brehaut	LauJensen: ah right, nice
06:40	LauJensen	callen-nyc: I think it performs better under higher load, didn't press it
06:40	callen-nyc	LauJensen: was the PHP setup heavily tuned/cached?
06:40	LauJensen	callen-nyc: yea
06:41	callen-nyc	LauJensen: that explains it. regardless if you hammer nginx with high concurrency load it's going to vastly outperform.
06:41	callen-nyc	LauJensen: baking might be a better idea for any website that is mostly content.
06:42	callen-nyc	LauJensen: one potential idea, to solve race conditions, queue changesets/transactions, feed them into map-reduce on a database, dump from database into flat files
06:42	LauJensen	callen-nyc: Yea, when it dawned on me that both the html presentation and sql data, were both the very same thing, I couldnt resist fusing them. With Enlive you can browse an html file as easily as an sql database
06:42	callen-nyc	LauJensen: that'll solve your reader/writer problem.
06:42	callen-nyc	LauJensen: virtually any map-reduce capable database would work.
06:42	LauJensen	callen-nyc: all race conditions are ironed out and dont need databases. The trick is to boil the I/O down to calls to 'mv' which is atomic
06:42	LauJensen	I would really hate to have to get a database back into play
06:43	callen-nyc	LauJensen: the point is that the database is arbitrating change resolution and allowing unblocked reads (async differential dumps to statics) while writes are incoming.
06:43	LauJensen	callen-nyc: this is no different
06:43	LauJensen	you have your data in file1, then you write the next version in file2, then call 'mv file2 file1', which is atomic. Nothing blocks
06:43	callen-nyc	it's quite different, you're using mv wrapped in atomicity as a database.
06:44	brehaut	callen-nyc: http://github.com/LauJensen/bestinclass.dk/blob/master/src/bestinclass/comments.clj
06:44	LauJensen	mv is atomic, Im not wrapping :)
06:44	LauJensen	And yes, the fs is my database, thats the whole point of baking
06:44	callen-nyc	LauJensen: call me paranoid, but it's not something I'd ever do.
06:45	callen-nyc	LauJensen: baking sure.
06:45	callen-nyc	LauJensen: arbitrating changes via fs. no.
06:45	callen-nyc	not for anything even slightly important.
06:45	LauJensen	Is your attitude based on anything rational?
06:46	LauJensen	(not meant sarcastically)
06:46	brehaut	LauJensen: the only down side i can see with your code is the unlikely even that the who JVM dies and you loose 1 minute of comments?
06:46	callen-nyc	LauJensen: personal experience with hacky things I've seen before, so, anecdote, and knowledge of how VMs work such that the notion of streaming writes into anything but something like a database makes me cringe.
06:46	LauJensen	brehaut: thats right, there is no durability guaratees for in-memory storage
06:46	callen-nyc	LauJensen: frankly, I take reliability pretty seriously and if I lost data I'd be really mad.
06:46	xkb	hi all
06:46	callen-nyc	(not (.contains url ".."))) <--- nice protection :P
06:46	LauJensen	callen-nyc: Ive never lost data - This is not less secure than a database.
06:47	LauJensen	callen-nyc: hehe :)
06:47	callen-nyc	LauJensen: what do you usually work in?
06:47	xkb	What would be the most idiomatic way to retrieve JSON from a web-server?
06:47	callen-nyc	xkb: ask nicely.
06:47	LauJensen	callen-nyc: You mean clothes-wise? :)
06:47	xkb	I'm using readers now :)
06:47	callen-nyc	LauJensen: field, specialty, ken.
06:47	LauJensen	callen-nyc: Best In Class is my consultancy company, specializing in Clojure
06:47	callen-nyc	LauJensen: so webapps?
06:47	LauJensen	Among other things
06:48	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I appreciate that the cavalier infrastructure you're using for your blog/whatever site is working fine
06:49	callen-nyc	LauJensen: but please, for the sake of your clients, do not inflict a "filesystem as database" webapp on any of them.
06:49	LauJensen	callen-nyc: My clients usually respond best to rational arguments, based on performance, maintenance cost, development time etc, sometimes fs as db is the best, often its not
06:50	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I've done a lot of data (base) wrangling in the past, and I've dealt with hacky setups that just wrote to the fs as a means of persistence, and it was a horror.
06:50	callen-nyc	LauJensen: it's simply irresponsible.
06:50	callen-nyc	LauJensen: regardless of what you think is logical.
06:50	LauJensen	callen-nyc: I dont see how - You're afraid the fs will be corrupted? What do you think happens to a db situated on a corrupted fs?
06:50	callen-nyc	you're missing the point by a mile.
06:51	LauJensen	repeat it please
06:51	callen-nyc	you aren't grokking the myriad directions data loss can come from
06:51	callen-nyc	no.
06:51	callen-nyc	you're an axe to grind.
06:51	callen-nyc	you've got your personal roof to thatch and I'm not going to go on a crusade for sake of people whom I'm not responsible for.
06:51	LauJensen	hehe
06:51	callen-nyc	if you won't listen, it's not my angry clients.
06:51	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I don't find this amusing at all.
06:52	LauJensen	callen-nyc: I find it very funny. Im asking you to state your case, and you reply by calling me an axe and saying I wont listen :)
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I've had total data loss with 3 synced copies of data before.
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: comprende? I've seen the "worst case scenario" before
06:52	LauJensen	wow, and you're calling me irresponsible? :D
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: shut the fuck up
06:52	LauJensen	haha
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: it wasn't my setup, I inherited it
06:52	LauJensen	Come on - That was funny
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I had to do data recovery
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I don't find this funny at all, get serious or stop talking to me.
06:52	callen-nyc	LauJensen: it was a horrifying week.
06:53	callen-nyc	LauJensen: I had three hard drives of different makes and ages die at the same time, on two different computers.
06:53	callen-nyc	LauJensen: that's absurdly improbable, more so than the kinds of odds you're playing with a fs-as-database
06:53	callen-nyc	LauJensen: it's a stupid design for data you even slightly care about.
06:54	callen-nyc	I refuse to even deploy mongodb for a client with 3 machines plus a back-replication.
06:54	LauJensen	Im just not seeing where leaving out the actual database is elevating the risks? If I rsync the /bestinclass/ folder to 3 different systems - how is a database more safe?
06:54	callen-nyc	without
06:54	callen-nyc	LauJensen: your know-nothingness is not my problem. I'm done chasing the troll.
06:54	LauJensen	If anything, the database adds its own concerns
06:54	callen-nyc	back to coooode.
07:38	Bjering	I left for a long lunch-meeting, but now back and perhaps I missed a solution to my problem. Sadly it remains her on my end, how to I call a java method with this signature? public static ChannelBuffer wrappedBuffer(byte[]... arrays)
07:38	Bjering	(to-array '((byte-array [(byte 0)]) (byte-array [(byte 0)]))
07:38	Bjering	)
07:39	Bjering	gives me Object[], and it needs byte[][]
07:40	Chousuke	Bjering: first of all, you don't want to quote the list like that; you'll get an array that contains a list
07:41	Chousuke	Bjering: you want (to-array [(byte-array [0]) (byte-array [0])]) or something
07:42	Chousuke	(there's no need to convert the 0s to bytes, literal vectors can't contain them anyway)
07:42	esj	would into-array be better as it figures out the type ?
07:43	Chousuke	multidimensional arrays are horrible to use from clojure ;/
07:43	Chousuke	I think mostly because multidimensional arrays are horrible, and java just tries to hide that from you
07:43	esj	good point indeed
07:44	esj	too bad the mathmeticians are so into them :)
07:44	callen-nyc	Chousuke: alternatives to multi-d arrays?
07:44	Bjering	(to-array [(byte-array [0]) (byte-array [0])]) throws ClassCastException
07:44	callen-nyc	Chousuke: clever key names? :P
07:44	Chousuke	what byte[][] actually is in java IS a Object[]
07:44	Chousuke	and the Objects are byte[]s :P
07:44	esj	aaah
07:45	Bjering	Chousuke, what I really want todo is call the vararg method listed above, google let me thing to-array was the way todo it with clojure.
07:45	Chousuke	hmm
07:45	Chousuke	(doc to-array)
07:45	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns an array of Objects containing the contents of coll, which can be any Collection. Maps to java.util.Collection.toArray()."
07:45	Chousuke	okay so that one is not the problem
07:45	Chousuke	(doc byte-array)
07:45	clojurebot	"([size-or-seq] [size init-val-or-seq]); Creates an array of bytes"
07:46	esj	,(doc into-array)
07:46	clojurebot	"([aseq] [type aseq]); Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
07:46	esj	i've successfully used this for Java varargs functions
07:46	Chousuke	to-array should work just as well
07:47	esj	ok
07:47	Chousuke	and I can't see why byte-array doesn't
07:48	Bjering	,(to-array [(byte-array [(byte 0)]) (byte-array [(byte 0)])])
07:48	clojurebot	#<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@fc990c>
07:48	Chousuke	that looks correct.
07:48	Bjering	,(to-array [(byte-array [0]) (byte-array [0])])
07:48	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Byte
07:48	Chousuke	hm.
07:48	Chousuke	oh, right, duh
07:48	callen-nyc	static typing system biting you in the balls.
07:48	callen-nyc	why in good ole' C, it'd just let you shoot yer arm off :P
07:49	Chousuke	the casting decides which object it gets boxed at.
07:49	Chousuke	as
07:49	Bjering	now the real problem is it doesnt match this Object[] to the right overload (the byte[]... vararg one)
07:49	Chousuke	you might want to call (byte-array 1 0) instead so you can avoid the casting and vectors :P
07:50	Chousuke	Bjering: so it has multiple varargs overloads? :/
07:50	Bjering	yes
07:50	Chousuke	are there any other parameters?
07:50	Bjering	in some of th overloads yes, not in this one.
07:51	Chousuke	I have no idea how to typehint that :P
07:52	Chousuke	,(class (byte-array 1 0))
07:52	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
07:52	callen-nyc	and just a reminder to everyone why you're here instead of #haskell: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
07:52	Chousuke	,(class (byte-array 1 [0]))
07:52	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Byte
07:52	Chousuke	,(class (byte-array [(byte 0)]))
07:52	clojurebot	[B
07:54	Bjering	Chousuke: Here is the API I am trying to use, if it helps to know what overloads wrappedBuffer has: http://docs.jboss.org/netty/3.1/api/org/jboss/netty/buffer/class-use/ChannelBuffer.html
07:56	defn	callen-nyc: still awake?
07:56	esj	,(class (into-array (byte-array [(byte 0)])))
07:56	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.Byte;
07:56	Chousuke	hmm"
07:57	Chousuke	,(Class/forName "[[B")
07:57	clojurebot	[[B
07:57	Chousuke	so it looks like byte[][] is a special class after all
07:58	Chousuke	,(into-array (Class/ForName "[[B") [(byte-array [(byte 0)]])
07:58	Chousuke	looks like clojurebot got bored of arrays :P
07:59	Chousuke	,(into-array (Class/forName "[[B") [(byte-array [(byte 0)]])
07:59	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
07:59	Chousuke	,(into-array (Class/forName "[[B") [(byte-array [(byte 0)])])
07:59	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
07:59	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch
08:00	Chousuke	argh
08:01	Chousuke	(doc make-array)
08:01	clojurebot	"([type len] [type dim & more-dims]); Creates and returns an array of instances of the specified class of the specified dimension(s). Note that a class object is required. Class objects can be obtained by using their imported or fully-qualified name. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
08:02	Chousuke	I think that's your function
08:02	Chousuke	then you just need to populate it manually
08:02	Bjering	into-array works :)
08:03	Chousuke	fortunately java arrays are mostly an interop problem ;/
08:04	Bjering	yes, its not code I'll write often, but appearantly I need it sometimes.
08:04	Bjering	my finished function: https://gist.github.com/7c931dbedfb6eb488131
08:10	Chousuke	Bjering: I suggest using the sugared interop syntax instead of .
08:11	Chousuke	ie. (ChannelBuffers/wrappedBuffer ...)
08:12	Bjering	yes, nicer
08:12	Chousuke	Using . should be reserved for code generated by macros.
08:15	esj	I got one ?
08:16	noidi	,(= (double (float 0.123)) 0.123)
08:16	clojurebot	false
08:16	noidi	,(type 0.123)
08:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Double
08:16	noidi	what's up with that?
08:17	noidi	ah, rounding errors
08:17	noidi	,(double (float 0.123))
08:17	clojurebot	0.12300000339746475
08:17	noidi	man, I hate floating point :P
08:18	noidi	,(float 0.123)
08:18	clojurebot	0.123
08:18	esj	(- (float 0.123) (double 0.123))
08:18	esj	,(- (float 0.123) (double 0.123))
08:18	clojurebot	3.3974647539736225E-9
08:18	esj	so annoying
08:19	noidi	I didn't expect any error to be introduced when moving to a larger type (float -> double)
08:22	raek	floating point numbers are inherently inexact; (non-approximative) equality does not make much sense for them
08:23	raek	,(+ 1.0 10000000000000000000000000.0 -10000000000000000000000000.0)
08:23	clojurebot	0.0
08:24	esj	hahahah
08:29	xkb	If I want to use butlast from contrib, what should I require?
08:29	xkb	I keep getting errors
08:29	xkb	classpath wise
08:30	LauJensen	xkb: the butlast in core isnt good enough?
08:31	noidi	raek, in my case it sort of does, I serialize and deserialize floats so in my tests I want to check that they're read back correctly
08:31	xkb	hmm might also work
08:31	xkb	LauJensen: let me try
08:31	LauJensen	if not, you only need the contrib.jar file on your classpath, and then require the lib containing the fn, in this case its seq-utils IIRC
08:31	defn	is this a good example of val?
08:31	defn	,(map val {:a 1 :b 2})
08:31	clojurebot	(1 2)
08:31	defn	or am i missing something more idiomatic?
08:32	Chousuke	that's good I think
08:32	LauJensen	defn: looks fine to me
08:32	defn	cool, thanks
08:32	LauJensen	IIRC it only works with MapEntries
08:32	defn	im trying to fill up clojuredocs :)
08:34	defn	could someone explain force to me?
08:34	hircus	LauJensen: works for a map-style vector too -- (map val (into [] {:a 1 :b 2}))
08:34	hircus	,(map val (into [] {:a 1 :b 2})
08:34	clojurebot	EOF while reading
08:34	defn	hircus: good example
08:34	defn	may i use it?
08:34	hircus	,(map val (into [] {:a :b 2}))
08:34	clojurebot	3
08:34	LauJensen	,(map class (into [] {:a 1 :b 2}))
08:34	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry)
08:35	LauJensen	hircus: Its the same thing, element wise
08:35	hircus	ah
08:35	defn	ah, yeah, good point, i dont want to extrapolate on every example by providing an into i dont think
08:35	Chousuke	hmm
08:35	defn	will just get bloated that way
08:35	Chousuke	,(val [1 2])
08:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
08:35	hircus	defn: certainly. code snippets are too silly to claim copyright on :)
08:35	defn	hircus: it's polite to ask :)
08:35	hircus	you're welcome
08:35	defn	it's idiomatic in this community to ask i should say
08:35	defn	:)
08:37	xkb	Aha, the butlast in core does something else as I wanted to
08:37	xkb	but last in str does (butlast 3 "sander") => "san"
08:38	xkb	as in all but last #
08:42	n2n3	,(eval)
08:42	clojurebot	DENIED
08:42	n2n3	,(eval 'hello)
08:42	clojurebot	DENIED
08:43	hircus	n2n3: eval is dangerous :)
08:43	defn	,(read (eval 'hello))
08:43	clojurebot	DENIED
08:45	LauJensen	Chousuke: Did you work out why your call to val failed ?
08:46	raek	noidi: you might want to check whether the difference between the original value and the read value is under a certain value (or the percentage of their mean value)
08:47	raek	certain float values don't have exact decimal represenations and vice versa
08:47	Chousuke	LauJensen: in the vector case? I suppose two-element vectors aren't map entries :P
08:48	LauJensen	Chousuke: (into [] {:a 5 :b 10}) => [[:a 5] [:b 10]], sending that to map val work. Manually calling (map val [[:a 5] [:b 10]]) fails like yours did, although the class is the same.
08:48	Chousuke	LauJensen: it's not.
08:48	Chousuke	LauJensen: map entries print as vectors, but vectors aren't map entries.
08:48	raek	,(class (first (seq {:a 1}))
08:48	defn	how do i properly use the :validator option on a ref?
08:48	clojurebot	EOF while reading
08:48	raek	,(class (first (seq {:a 1})))
08:48	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
08:49	LauJensen	,(class (into [] {:a 5 :b 10}))
08:49	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
08:49	LauJensen	,(class [[:a 5] [:b 10]])
08:49	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
08:49	LauJensen	,(into [] {:a 5 :b 10})
08:49	clojurebot	[[:a 5] [:b 10]]
08:49	Chousuke	LauJensen: you're not calling val on the vector, but its contents
08:49	raek	but conj accepts both MapEntries and vectors?
08:49	Chousuke	LauJensen: which are map entries
08:49	LauJensen	Ah right - Good morning all :9
08:50	Chousuke	raek: mapentries immplement the vector interface
08:50	hircus	,(class (first [[:a 5] [:b 10]]))
08:50	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
08:50	raek	*(conj a-map a-vector/a-map-entry)
08:50	Chousuke	defn: isn't it a function of the value that the ref would hold?
08:50	defn	Chousuke: hrm...
08:50	hircus	Chousuke: so (into [] a-map) basically is a no-op, just return a pointer that's tagged as a vector?
08:51	defn	Chousuke: what does it look like though?
08:51	Chousuke	hircus: no
08:51	Chousuke	hircus: the map can only be converted into a seq of map entries, not directly into a vector of map entries
08:51	raek	,(into [] {:a 1, :b 2})
08:51	clojurebot	[[:a 1] [:b 2]]
08:51	defn	do you refer with :validator (...) somehow to the value of the ref? does it apply to the in-trans. value?
08:51	Chousuke	hircus: into transforms that seq into a vector
08:52	raek	return a vector of MapEntries
08:52	defn	is :validator like a :pre or :post?
08:52	hircus	ah ok
08:52	Chousuke	defn: only the value that would be committed
08:52	Chousuke	defn: and it's a function, it needs to take a parameter
08:53	defn	Chousuke: so (def myref (ref [] :validator (< 4 %))???
08:53	hircus	,(map val (vector (clojure.lang.MapEntry. :a 5)))
08:53	clojurebot	(5)
08:53	hircus	neat :)
08:53	Chousuke	defn: #(< 4 %)
08:53	defn	err right that's what i meant
08:54	Chousuke	defn: but yeah, just like that
08:54	Chousuke	though the initial value must of course pass the validator too :D
08:55	Chousuke	,(ref [] :validator pos?)
08:55	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
08:55	defn	Chousuke: haha yes
08:55	Chousuke	,(ref 1 :validator pos?)
08:55	clojurebot	#<Ref@a9a4f: 1>
08:55	defn	ahhhhh
08:55	defn	thanks Chousuke
09:05	cpfr	hey my code is giving a java exception that is being cutoff
09:05	cpfr	how can i pipe it so i can see the full error
09:07	n2n3	,
09:07	clojurebot	EOF while reading
09:08	n2n3	,def
09:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: def in this context
09:08	n2n3	,(println)
09:08	clojurebot
09:08	cpfr	anybody?
09:09	raek	cpfr: are you in the repl?
09:09	cpfr	raek, nope running on the command-line
09:10	cpfr	i use swank for most of my dev work
09:10	cpfr	but when actually running the code, there is pain
09:10	raek	so, the exception does not happen in the swank repl thread?
09:10	raek	where is it printed from?
09:11	xkb	hmm if I call read-json on a previously opened BufferedReader I get a class-cast exception, LazySeq cannot be cast to PushbackReader
09:11	xkb	any way to fix this?
09:11	raek	if you get an exception in the repl, it is bound to the variable *e
09:11	cpfr	raek, not sure how to get it to print
09:12	raek	but something prints it? or how do you see it cut off?
09:13	raek	xkb: are you sure that you pass the buffered reader to read-json?
09:13	cpfr	im pasting right now
09:13	xkb	raek: I take away 2 substrings before passing it
09:13	xkb	raek: does that change anything? I can paste the code in pasty if u like?
09:13	cpfr	http://paste.lisp.org/display/113066
09:13	raek	xkb: a paste would help
09:14	raek	how do you do substring operations on readers?
09:14	cpfr	I am trying to extend a class method that returns boolean[]
09:14	raek	cpfr: heh, that's the internal JVM notation of vectors
09:14	raek	[type
09:15	xkb	raek: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113067
09:15	xkb	happens on calling userbooks
09:15	xkb	its my first attempt at anything beyond hello world btw :P
09:15	cpfr	raek I used the code (into-array [true true])
09:16	cpfr	doesn't that get me to type boolean[]
09:21	xkb	raek: any tips? :)
09:22	cpfr	raek, so how do I get the risk of that exception error
09:29	xkb	hmm my problem appears to be in strip-header-var function
09:30	xkb	which should be generalized anyway :P
09:31	xkb	aha.. because drop is lazy
09:36	raek	cpfr: you're trying to use an array of boxed booleans as an array of primitive booleans
09:36	cpfr	ah, how do I stop doing that
09:38	raek	well, I'd have to see the code where you make the arrays in order to know that
09:38	cpfr	hmm will (into-array Boolean/TYPE [true true]) work?
09:39	raek	xkb: you need to do a (apply str ...) on the results to make them a string again
09:39	xkb	raek: Ok, will try, thanks
09:39	xkb	seq != String
09:40	xkb	good to know
09:40	xkb	wee cool, it worked
09:40	raek	xkb: there are some goodies in clojure.string
09:41	raek	those are preferred when working on strings
09:41	raek	,(into-array Boolean/TYPE [true true])
09:41	clojurebot	#<boolean[] [Z@ca00a>
09:41	raek	,(into-array Boolean [true true])
09:41	clojurebot	#<Boolean[] [Ljava.lang.Boolean;@ea369a>
09:42	raek	cpfr: yes, your example works
09:59	sid3k	is metadata feature of clojure is an operator overloading approach? since my attention is very distracted now, I couldn't understad it
10:00	Chousuke	overloading?
10:00	Chousuke	metadata is just metadata, what about it makes you think of operator overloading?
10:01	sid3k	lua's approach is metatables, just this naming resembling made me think of o.l
10:02	sid3k	speaking of that, does clojure support operator overloading or sth like that?
10:03	sid3k	I guess it's an impossible feature for a lisp dialect
10:03	dnolen	sid3k: metadata is one way to put ad hoc type information on supported data structures. useful when dispatching on multimethods
10:03	Chousuke	sid3k: operators don't really exist in Clojure
10:03	sid3k	Chousuke: right
10:04	Chousuke	though the generic term for the thing at the head of a list can be called "operator"
10:04	dnolen	sid3k: tho it's easy to exclude fn's like + from your namespace and define your own if that's your cup of tea.
10:04	Chousuke	that term encompasses special forms, macros and functions
10:05	sid3k	dnolen: what if we need to execute > function on different data structures?
10:06	Chousuke	sid3k: then the > function needs to be replaced with a polymorphic one
10:06	Chousuke	most likely though a new function will be introduces
10:06	Chousuke	introduced*
10:06	sid3k	you mean, clojure team is already working on that?
10:07	dnolen	sid3k: no you can do that now if you want.
10:07	Chousuke	the new protocol stuff gives you a very efficient way of doing polymorphic functions
10:07	Chousuke	but it has always been possible.
10:07	Chousuke	with multimethods.
10:08	sid3k	this is what I'm going to code now, here my first blog post comes
10:08	Chousuke	or manually via java interfaces and conditionals; eg. the "seq" function
10:08	sid3k	:)
10:09	Chousuke	seq is one of the functions that will most likely be changed into a protocol eventually
10:09	Chousuke	the API stays the same though, which is nice.
10:10	raek	sid3k: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/generic.arithmetic-api.html :)
10:11	sid3k	what I think is to code a function executing a method named "gt" by passing second element as argument
10:11	sid3k	raek: checking out
10:12	sid3k	raek: thanks this is what I was talking about
10:12	sid3k	tyvm everyone
10:27	cpfr	raek, sorry my connection is faulty, but I got it working, thanks!
10:30	otfrom	I've been frustrated by google today. Too many results and not enough answers.
10:31	otfrom	If I generate a pom.xml using leiningen, what maven command could I use to create an uberjar similar to lein uberjar?
10:31	otfrom	(I need it to work with some collaborators on windows who are clojure noobs)
10:34	noidi	otfrom, http://gist.github.com/504728
10:35	noidi	otfrom, that's a snippet from my pom.xml (hand written though, no leiningen)
10:36	noidi	oops, that was a bit too much though, that conf also generates a .zip that contains the .jar
10:37	otfrom	noidi, thanks. I'll give that a try. I might have to look at the pom task and see what is going on though. It should generate that.
10:38	noidi	http://gist.github.com/504728
10:38	noidi	I stripped the irrelevant bits
10:38	noidi	ack, still too much, the property was only used by the .zip generation
10:39	noidi	anyway, with that conf for the maven-assembly-plugin, the command "mvn package" should generate an equivalent of a lein uberjar
10:40	otfrom	noidi, cool. thanks again.
10:40	noidi	no problem
10:41	otfrom	noidi, the your.main.class will need to be the generated class name rather than the clojure namespace won't it?
10:41	noidi	yes
10:41	xkb	is spit still in clojure.contrib.duck-streams?
10:41	xkb	1.1.0?
10:43	otfrom	noidi, ok. so for my kala.core with a main it will be <mainClass>core$_main.class</mainClass> I'll give that a go. Thanks again.
10:43	noidi	no, it will be kala.core
10:43	noidi	if you define the namespace with (ns kala.core (:gen-class))
10:43	mefesto	Is the clojure-contrib link on the clojure.org site going to the github readme file, instead of github pages, by mistake?
10:44	otfrom	I do. OK. Thanks for that. I think you just saved me an hour of head scratching. :-D
10:44	noidi	yeah, maven's a bit of a pain when you're just getting started
10:45	noidi	but once you get the hang of the basics, it's quite nice
10:50	raek	xkb: spit will be available in duck-streams for backwards compability
10:50	raek	clojure.contrib.duck-streams became clojure.contrib.io, which became clojure.java.io
10:50	raek	since 1.2.0, clojure.java.io is the one to use for new code
10:52	raek	hrm, ok. 'spit' did not make it into clojure.java.io
10:55	AWizzArd	raek: right, it is in clojure.core
10:56	AWizzArd	But why is read-lines not in clojure.java.io?
10:58	raek	read-lines was different from line-seq, rigth?
11:02	otfrom	noidi, that gist works great. Thanks (now to figure out why leiningen isn't creating that by default).
11:04	noidi	otfrom, great!
11:05	xkb	so if I want to write I file, what should I use?
11:05	xkb	I now use spit most of the time
11:06	raek	clojure.java.io/writer could be useful
11:07	raek	if you want to write things piece by piece
11:09	xkb	and all at once, cause thats really neat with spit
11:11	fogus	cemerick: I'm totally going to steal your defrecord+defaults macro
11:13	cemerick	fogus: have at it :-)
11:13	cemerick	I think the kwarg override next step would be a big winner.
11:14	raek	when dealing with very large files, you might want to read and write in a lazy manner
11:15	raek	so that the whole file does not need to reside in memory at one time
11:15	fogus	cemerick: I was thinking more along the lines of defining invariants that the RecordRecordAbstractFactoryFactoryFunction checks, but yes, I agree with your next step
11:18	cemerick	fogus: something like slot-specific asserts/preconditions?
11:18	fogus	yes
11:19	fogus	Of course that only works if you go through the factory-fn, but I'
11:19	cemerick	fogus: I think we'd have to have interface/protocol impl mixins for that to work well (i.e. to "wrap" the default record assoc impl)
11:22	fogus	cemerick: Do you mean something that is called automatically?
11:23	cemerick	fogus: yeah, I thought that was where you were going. e.g. (assoc foo :slot some-illegal-value) -> AssertException("some-illegal-value is not within the acceptable range of [-π π]"), etc
11:24	cemerick	(along with applying the same invariants at ctor-time
11:25	fogus_	cemerick: I thought there was talk of some such factory fn capability in a future Clojure, but I am not sure if the goal was to make it such a hook
11:26	fogus_	It would be ideal if it were
11:26	cemerick	No, I don't think it was.
11:26	cemerick	Though, if some interface impl mixin facility comes to fruition, that can be used freely by any macro.
11:39	fogus_	I could always be evil and add a hook to assoc/etc. automagically :-P I might lose my Clojure membership though.
12:12	fogus_	cemerick: http://gist.github.com/504861
12:25	AWizzArd	Why does (seq (.iterator (org.apache.commons.collections.set.ListOrderedSet.))) not work?
12:26	AWizzArd	http://commons.apache.org/collections/api-release/org/apache/commons/collections/set/ListOrderedSet.html says it returns a java.util.Iterator and I thought seq can traverse such structures?!
12:26	wwmorgan	,(doc iterator-seq)
12:26	clojurebot	"([iter]); Returns a seq on a java.util.Iterator. Note that most collections providing iterators implement Iterable and thus support seq directly."
12:29	AWizzArd	wwmorgan: thanks
13:30	slyrus	hmm... I suppose in clojure the price of a map where each key has itself as its value is pretty low.
13:32	somnium	slyrus: I think those are called sets
13:32	slyrus	somnium: yeah, but if I do it this way I have the option of using a name as the key, or the value itself as the key.
13:34	slyrus	this is for keeping track of nodes in a graph. sometimes I want a node like "5". It's pretty self explanatory. 5 is the value, the name, etc... Other times I might want "carbon-atom-34" as the name. I could keep a separate map of names to objects, but it might by easiest to just do it this way.
13:37	somnium	slyrus: whatever works, works
13:40	slyrus	indeed
13:46	slyrus	somnium: and the clojure API is nice enough that if I just use conj I can let the user decide which to use. even better!
13:58	therealni	is there a way to distribute access to the STM across a network? Like can STM be used an in-memory database.
14:04	gigamonkey	Are Clojure's proxies a separate mechanism from java.lang.reflect.Proxy?
14:06	slyrus	hey gigamonkey
14:08	gigamonkey	Yo, slyrus.
14:10	dpritchett	Hey I was just rereading Steele's chapter in Coders at Work this morning. Do you have any new books on the way?
14:11	gigamonkey	dpritchett: no books but I'm working on this: http://www.codequarterly.com/
14:11	gigamonkey	More at http://codequarterly.wordpress.com/ and http://twitter.com/codequarterly
14:12	dpritchett	That's new to me, thanks for sharing the link!
14:13	gigamonkey	Feel free to spread it around! (And we're always looking for writers. And we pay!)
14:13	gigamonkey	(How much, exactly, TBD.)
14:14	gigamonkey	ObClojure--I've got a guy working on a Q&A interview with Rich Hickey.
14:14	AWizzArd	gigamonkey: yes, Clojures Proxies are a bit different
14:14	gigamonkey	AWizzArd: any particular reason?
14:14	gigamonkey	I notice you can subclass which you can't with j.l.r.Proxy.
14:14	AWizzArd	yes
14:15	AWizzArd	under the hood Clojure uses Classes from the j.l.r package
14:15	gigamonkey	But to make a subclass it must cons up a .class on the fly, no?
14:15	AWizzArd	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_proxy.clj
14:16	gigamonkey	Based on the occurence of ClassWriter, I'm guessing what I just said is true.
14:16	AWizzArd	yes
14:17	gigamonkey	And so is the ability to subclass the reason for doing it that way? Or are there other benefits?
14:18	AWizzArd	There was the need for being able to subclass and to implement interfaces. That was before reify was added to Clojure.
14:18	AWizzArd	Proxy is very general, while reify is working on Interfaces, but more efficient.
14:30	Drakeson	how can I wrap a call with System.exit trapped?
14:34	AWizzArd	(System/exit 15)
14:36	AWizzArd	(Class/staticMethod arg1 arg2 ...)
14:38	pjstadig	is it possible to dispatch a multimethod on the types of its arguments, where one of those types is a primitive array?
14:38	pjstadig	,(second (map type [ "test" (byte-array [ (byte 1) (byte 2) (byte 3) ]) ]))
14:38	clojurebot	[B
14:39	pjstadig	how could I do (defmethod something [String [B ] @body)?
14:40	AWizzArd	(defn foo [^String s, ^"[B]" x] ...)
14:40	AWizzArd	"[B"
14:40	AWizzArd	without the closing ]
14:40	pjstadig	k thanks, i'll try that
14:41	pjstadig	wait no
14:41	pjstadig	that won't work, i want to do a multimethod
14:41	pjstadig	i want to dispatch based on the type of the args
14:43	_fogus_	pjstadig: (defmethod foo (Class/forName "[Ljava.lang.String;") [a] ...)
14:44	_fogus_	pjdstadig: (defmethod foo (Class/forName "[[[[I") [a] ...) ;; for prim int
14:44	pjstadig	_fogus_: thanks, that looks like it might work, i'll try
14:45	_fogus_	pjstadig: That last example was a 4-d array however. ;-) "[I" would be a 1-d
14:48	LauJensen	_fogus_: You got that book wrapped up yet ? :)
14:49	_fogus_	mostly. the indexing is torturous but we hand it off to production, and the technical reviewer, in 1-2 days
14:50	LauJensen	Cool
14:50	replaca	_fogus_: wow! congrats. The parts I've read so far are very cool.
14:50	_fogus_	replaca: thank you
15:19	defn	'lo all
15:24	slyrus	hmm... could there be a bug in multi-arg dispatch for protocol methods implemented by records where a record in a different ns attempts to implement a protocol method from another ns?
15:24	slyrus	single arg functions seem fine
15:26	slyrus	I suppose it's more likely that I've screwed something up
15:31	jarodluebbert	would clojure be a good choice for writing a web crawler?
15:33	qchamaeleon	Hi all... Got a question regarding import of java classes/interfaces.. Is it possible to import a java interface that happens to be inside a java class? Haven't had any luck with it at all.
15:33	qchamaeleon	The particular case I'm looking at is creating a proxy for an interface in Piccolo2D, edu.umd.cs.piccolo.activities.PActivity.PActivityDelegate, where PActivity is a class containing the interface PActivityDelegate.
15:39	_fogus_	qchamaeleon: Try something like this: (import 'java.util.Map$Entry)
15:40	qchamaeleon	Ah. Thank you. Using $ worked. Have I missed it in the docs somewhere?
15:40	_fogus_	Not sure where to find it.
15:40	qchamaeleon	Apparently I have. Found it on the java_interop page..
15:41	_fogus_	hmm, I guess that would make sense. :-)
15:41	qchamaeleon	Thanks a bunch for the insight. Been driving me nuts.
15:43	cemerick	_fogus_: nice addition. A lot simpler than what I was thinking of initially, aligning the kw vals so that they go into the ctor instead of the default expr.
15:44	_fogus_	i went down that path at first
15:44	cemerick	It'll make a lot more sense if one were to add support for lexical ctor arg references as in hugod123's flavour.
15:45	_fogus_	I haven't seen that version
15:46	cemerick	_fogus_: http://github.com/hugoduncan/atticus/blob/master/src/main/clojure/atticus/factory.clj
15:46	_fogus_	I started playing around with my version in trammel but got sidetracked.
15:46	_fogus_	oh cool, thanks
15:47	_fogus_	I'll try to digest this later
15:48	cemerick	The downside of that impl is that (IIUC), an instance of the record is essentially reduced through the non-default args, which would be a perf killer for me.
15:51	defn	Here is a picture of Whistler’s mother with a Winchester: (-> (->> ...))
15:53	_fogus_	defn: That reference just shot over my head
15:56	defn	_fogus_: which one?
15:57	_fogus_	-> ->>
15:57	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/->>
15:57	defn	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistler's_Mother and http://web.blogs.clarin.com/lenovision/files/winchester1200.jpg
15:58	_fogus_	Well, I know what the words mean, but not put together like that
15:58	cemerick	I saw it kicking around twitter this morning. I don't get it either.
15:59	defn	it might not actually make sense
15:59	defn	but im enjoying calling them that
15:59	defn	:D
16:08	slyrus	d'oh! bit by the fields aren't accessors notion again.
16:25	arkh	do I need to be in a non-default namespace if I want to import java classes at a repl?
16:28	arkh	nvm - even within a namespace I get the following when trying to import a java class: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.net (NO_SOURCE_FILE:6) Why?
16:30	arkh	,(import 'java.util BitSet)
16:30	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util
16:30	danielfm	I think it's (import '[java.util BitSet])
16:31	arkh	danielfm: that was it - thank you
16:32	danielfm	I have a silly question about function naming convention, maybe you guys know the answer
16:32	danielfm	there are some functions that ends with an exclamation mark, e.g. 'swap!', because such functions have side effects, right?
16:33	danielfm	so, why 'alter' doesn't end with an exclamation mark? Am I missing something?
16:37	dnolen	danielfm: probably because they must appear inside of dosync
16:38	danielfm	dnolen, yeah, I misunderstood the docstring
16:38	danielfm	"Must be called in a transaction. Sets the in-transaction-value of ref to..."
16:38	danielfm	that "sets the in-transaction-value" answers my question
16:39	arkh	there's also io!, which is called in a transaction but given an ! for "opposite" reasons
16:39	danielfm	, (doc io!)
16:39	clojurebot	"([& body]); If an io! block occurs in a transaction, throws an IllegalStateException, else runs body in an implicit do. If the first expression in body is a literal string, will use that as the exception message."
16:40	arkh	that's a horrible explanation
16:41	danielfm	arkh, yeah, the function itself doesn't have any side effects, but it avoids that you do some nasty stuff inside a transaction, which may be replayed several times
16:41	arkh	it should be something like "If IO occurs within io!, within a transaction, throw an IllegalStateException, etc.
16:42	rhudson	See http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Clojure_Library_Coding_Standards
16:42	rhudson	"Use the bang! only for things not safe in an STM transaction."
16:42	arkh	rhudson: you get +1 clojure credits for finding the canonical explanation ; )
16:43	danielfm	rhudson, thanks!
16:43	tomoj	arkh: but wouldn't that be incorrect?
16:43	dsantiago	io! is your declaration that something in the body is doing IO.
16:43	tomoj	->(dosync (io!))
16:43	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
16:44	tomoj	err
16:44	arkh	oh ..
16:44	tomoj	,(dosync (io!))
16:44	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: I/O in transaction
16:44	arkh	I sit corrected :)
16:44	tomoj	of course, an io! block with no IO would be kinda silly..
16:45	danielfm	tomoj, in this particular case, even if the io! function itself is safe, the function it wraps is not
16:45	danielfm	so I understand why this function ends with a !
16:47	danielfm	tomoj, but I got your point :)
16:48	tomoj	seems like io! is only useful if you use it every time you do IO
16:48	dsantiago	I think it's for writing libraries.
16:48	dsantiago	So you can help people keep troublesome functions out of their transactions.
16:48	tomoj	that makes sense
16:48	tomoj	does anyone actually use it, though?
16:49	danielfm	dsantiago, indeed
16:53	danielfm	I don't see much use for io! because according to the coding conventions, is enough to just mark unsafe functions with a !
16:54	danielfm	io! just makes sure that such functions can't be used inside dosync
16:55	danielfm	but that's a whole another discussion...
16:55	rhudson	The only uses of io! in core.clj are in await and await-for
16:59	danielfm	hm, that's what dsantiago told about avoid the misuse of certain functions inside transactions
16:59	danielfm	so probably 'io!' is not the best name for such function..
17:01	danielfm	i don't know :P
17:01	rhudson	fwiw (dosync (spit "/tmp/foo" "foo")) executes without exception
17:02	tomoj	if you always put io! around every bit of code that does IO, you will never accidentally do IO in a transaction
17:02	tomoj	that's the use I see
17:03	tomoj	but no one does that, so..
17:06	danielfm	tomoj, I actually didn't know about that function, but indeed its use is something to consider
17:06	danielfm	specially in libraries
17:07	danielfm	thank you all!
18:46	defn	how would you rework this: http://gist.github.com/505467
18:47	confounds	i'd move the download link a little to the right
18:48	confounds	and maybe change the background to an off-white
18:51	tomoj	defn: why dorun?
18:52	tomoj	and why (let [rec (read r)] rec) instead of (read r) ?
18:52	clojurebot	click
18:52	tomoj	guess those aren't the kind of comments you're looking for, sorry :(
19:31	defn	tomoj: no very good ty
19:57	gfrlog	,clojure.core.json
19:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.json
19:57	gfrlog	,clojure.core.json.read
19:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.json.read
19:58	gfrlog	,clojure.contrib.json.read
19:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.json.read
19:58	gfrlog	,clojure.contrib.json
19:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.json
20:11	TakeV	Is there a way to extend a struct, so that I have, say, Struct02 with all the keys of Struct01, as well as it's own keys?
20:16	notsonerdysunny	is there a binary file format write s-expressions?
20:16	dnolen_	TakeV: not really, though you could write some macros, I did that once. But I'm not convinced there's much advantage to just merging two maps.
20:17	notsonerdysunny	I am sorry I typed that in a hurry ... is there a binary file format to store s-expressions? I intend to use s-expressions to store large simulation data ..
20:19	TakeV	dnolen_: Hmm, a macro would work nicely. Thank you.
20:21	dnolen_	notsonerdysunny: I haven't heard of anything like that.
20:21	notsonerdysunny	I just found out from the #lisp that there is something called cl-store .. which has a binary backend ..
20:22	notsonerdysunny	I am still looking for a clojure equivalent ...
20:22	brehaut	notsonerdysunny: i believe the clojure core structure types all support java's serialisability
20:23	brehaut	i cant speak for the quality of that
20:23	brehaut	but it might be half way to what you want?
20:24	notsonerdysunny	I am new to serialisability thing .. but is there something like binary-serializable .. which would make reading large "serialized-data" really quick
20:25	brehaut	notsonerdysunny: no idea sorry, ive never wanted to look at javas serialisation support
20:31	qbg	I can read in a serialized list of 10000 integers in 138 msec on my machine
20:34	qbg	The downside of serialization is that you shouldn't serialize functions/closures
20:34	qbg	That includes lazy sequences
20:36	brehaut	notsonerdysunny: the other caveat re:serialization is that it is intended to be used with short term storage only
20:36	brehaut	notsonerdysunny: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/281?page=1#comment%3A17
20:39	notsonerdysunny	qbg: I only intend to use serialization for storing data
20:39	notsonerdysunny	qbg: so what you are saying is a non-issue .. I want to be able store large simulation-related data as s-exps .. since it is a simple extendable way of doing it
20:41	brehaut	notsonerdysunny: do you want the data to be able to survive releases of clojure?
20:42	notsonerdysunny	yes .. I want it as a file format which can be easily read into clojure that is all...
20:42	brehaut	notsonerdysunny: then plain java serialisation is not for you (as per link above)
20:42	KirinDave	notsonerdysunny: Write a function to read a line, then make a lazy sequence out of a file.
20:43	KirinDave	notsonerdysunny: Clojure makes lightweight formats like tsv as easy as any lightweight text processing lang i've ever seen. Especially if you adopt clojure literals.
20:44	KirinDave	Has anyone written a yaml-clojure yet?
20:45	notsonerdysunny	KirinDave.. I don't want simple ascii .. since I intend to store large uniform array-like simulation related data ...
20:45	apage43	http://github.com/lancepantz/clj-yaml
20:45	notsonerdysunny	it needs to be binary
20:45	lancepantz	oh don't look at that
20:45	lancepantz	that was my learning clojure project :)
20:45	apage43	xDD
20:45	KirinDave	;)
20:45	technomancy	pssh--back in my day we only had one value for a bit.
20:45	brehaut	if its uniform and array shaped, why not just write a reader using javas binary IO layers
20:46	lancepantz	that just deserializes anyways
20:46	apage43	you could ostensibly use most java yaml libraries with relative ease
20:46	KirinDave	apage43: Bleck tho.
20:46	brehaut	technomancy: haha
20:46	lancepantz	right, the clojure wrapper isn't even neccessary
20:46	KirinDave	Yeah but eff those.
20:46	lancepantz	just use snakeyaml directly
20:46	apage43	http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnyaml
20:46	apage43	fnparse yaml
20:47	lancepantz	i always either use clj-json or protobufs
20:47	KirinDave	let me look at snakeyaml. C# has taught me to distrust static typing implementations of heterogenous serialization formats.
20:47	lancepantz	json is human readable enough imho
20:48	KirinDave	json is great.
20:48	KirinDave	But yaml is less of a pain to type.
20:48	KirinDave	That can be an important consideration.
20:48	lancepantz	fair point
21:47	mister_m	how do I make sure somethign is in my classpath, so I can (load x) it
21:47	mister_m	or (require )
21:48	mister_m	from the REPL
21:50	tomoj	are you asking how you can see what your classpath is?
21:52	mister_m	tomoj, and I guess how to add a folder to it
21:52	tomoj	don't add folders to your classpath
21:52	tomoj	well.. how are you starting the repl?
21:53	tomoj	from the repl you can see your classpath with (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
21:53	mister_m	I just type clojure at my command prompt
21:53	tomoj	..where'd you get that 'clojure' script?
21:53	rhudson	mister_m: Check out cljr -- that makes it very easy to control your repl classpath.
21:54	rhudson	http://github.com/liebke/cljr
21:56	tomoj	jeez, I need to get cljr just for clojars searching
21:56	lancepantz	there is also a lein plugin
21:57	lancepantz	don't remember what its called
21:57	tomoj	but then you have to add it to all of your :dev-deps, eh?
21:57	lancepantz	right
21:57	KirinDave	Why is add-classpath still around? I thought it was deprecated?
21:58	rhudson	It's still deprecated
21:59	mister_m	tomoj, you know I don't even know
21:59	tomoj	cljr looks like the way to go until you start making projects with lein
21:59	mister_m	where I picked up running the repl with 'clojure', probably through my trying to get it to work with emacs or soemthing
22:01	tomoj	for emacs you'll want `cljr swank`
22:02	KirinDave	Didn't java-utils or repl-utils used to have a classpath convenience function?
22:03	KirinDave	Oh it's just classpath now. Haha, shows how often I have to do stuff w/out lein ;)
22:10	mister_m	thanks for the cljr tip guys
22:12	qbg	github question: Is there any way to reopen a closed issue without create a new one?
22:14	lancepantz	heh, is it the read issue? :)
22:14	qbg	That worked
22:14	lancepantz	yay!
22:15	qbg	But I still can't read if I just (flush)'ed before hand
22:15	qbg	For example, (do (print "> ") (flush) (read))
22:18	tomoj	in what context? just curious
22:18	qbg	If I run 'cake repl' and try to evaluate that, the problem presents itself
22:19	tomoj	ah, cake
22:20	lancepantz	qbg: ninjudd reopened it
22:20	qbg	It seems weird; Clojure's repl seems to work fine...
22:21	ninjudd	qbg
22:21	ninjudd	qbg: looking into it
22:21	qbg	Okay
22:22	ninjudd	i think you can reopen on github with the "Actions" menu
22:23	ninjudd	qbg: cake's repl is much more compilcated than clojure's because it uses sockets to communicate with the persistent JVM
22:23	qbg	But shouldn't the clojure repl be doing essentially the same thing under cake as I am?
22:24	qbg	I'm not seeing an "Actions" menu
22:24	ninjudd	qbg: i guess it is only for the repo owner...
22:27	qbg	The project that I'm testing this on works fine under my nailgunized clojure repl
22:27	ninjudd	qbg: i reopened the ticket for you
22:28	ninjudd	qbg: yeah the issue is actually with readline. working on a fix
23:41	ninjudd	qbg: i just checked a fix in to github. let me know if it works when you get a second
23:42	qbg	Yay! It works!
23:42	qbg	Thank you ninjudd
23:42	ninjudd	sweet!
23:43	ninjudd	qbg: thanks for finding that bug. it was a tricky one