#clojure – 2010-07-13

2010-07-13

00:07	cais2002	is there a built-in or easy way to do transposing of matrix ? (transpose [ [1 2] [3 4] [5 6] ] ) => [ [1 3 5] [2 4 6] ]
00:08	qbg	,(apply map vector [[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]])
00:08	clojurebot	([1 3 5] [2 4 6])
01:54	TimMc	Man, debugging Clojure code stinks.
01:54	TimMc	I suspect this is mainly due to poor error messages.
01:55	TimMc	(on the part of library authors)
01:57	technomancy	TimMc: clj-stacktrace is a huge help for that
01:57	technomancy	highly recommended
02:00	TimMc	clojure.contrib.shell-out/sh assumes all arguments are strings. My code passed in an argument that was supposed to be a string, but turned out to be an int. The result? "ava.lang.IllegalArgumentException: array element type mismatch"
02:01	TimMc	The joys of dynamic type.
02:05	TimMc	So, in the case of clojure.contrib.shell-out, where does responsibility lie for ensuring all args are strings? http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/shell_out.clj
04:12	esj	(map greetings #clojure)
04:25	mikem	is it possible to add metadata to functions? at the point of definition (with defn)?
04:39	esj	mikem: try (defn ^{:doc "foo" :bar "baz"} mfoo [] :foo-bar)
04:40	esj	then (:bar (meta mfoo)) gives you "baz"
04:41	mikem	ok, it's working :)
04:41	mikem	esj: thanks
04:41	esj	np dude.
04:45	ponzao____	esj, is the meta call somehow cached. I created the function and tried (meta mfoo) -> {:ns #<Namespace user>, :name mfoo}
04:45	ponzao____	and when I redefined the function it gave me {:ns #<Namespace user>, :name mfoo, :file "NO_SOURCE_PATH", :line 1, :arglists ([]), :doc "foo", :bar "baz"}
04:45	mikem	yeah, also there's a difference in the results of (meta mfoo) and (meta #'mfoo)
04:47	ponzao____	(meta #'mfoo) seems to give up-to-date information
04:47	Chousuke	note that metadata on functions is new in 1.2
04:48	Chousuke	docstrings etc. are metadata on the var, not the function
04:48	mikem	Chousuke: ah, ok, so that's the difference between (meta mfoo) and (meta #'mfoo)?
04:49	mikem	the former is metadata of the function, while the latter is metadata of the var?
04:49	Chousuke	mikem: the latter is (meta (var foo))
04:49	Chousuke	mfoo*
04:50	Chousuke	mikem: so yes
04:50	Chousuke	mikem: the former is new stuff; it means you can now add metadata to functions you store in data structures
04:50	Chousuke	mikem: which wasn't possible previously
04:51	mikem	Chousuke: so is this the correct way to add this metadata to the function? (defn ^{:custom-metadata "stuff"} mfoo "docstring" [& args] (...)) ?
04:52	Chousuke	mikem: with defn, yes.
04:52	esj	whew !
04:53	Chousuke	mikem: for anonymous functions I think you need to use either with-meta or (fn ^{:metadata 'here} [] ...) but I'm not sure about the latter.
04:53	mikem	what happens when you call defn twice? I notice that the metadata of the function is not updated. Does this mean the var is updated, but the function object (IFn instance?) is not?
04:53	Chousuke	the function object is immutable
04:53	Chousuke	so it can't be updated
04:54	mikem	hehe of course :) hm...
04:54	Chousuke	what happens when you redefine a function is simply that the var gets a new value
04:54	mikem	so in that case, is the function object only created once, and reused in future calls to defn with the same name? that doesn't sound right
04:55	Chousuke	no, a new function object is created
04:55	Chousuke	with the same name
04:55	Chousuke	the old one is then garbage-collected if you haven't stored it anywhere
04:56	Chousuke	just like any other value
04:57	Chousuke	at least, that should happen :P
04:57	Chousuke	if it's not actually happening then something weird is going on.
05:00	mikem	it doesn't seem to be working quite as advertised: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112420
05:06	Chousuke	that looks like a bug to me
05:11	mikem	doesn't look like I'm able to create new tickets in assembla
05:21	mikem	can someone here file that as a bug? otherwise I could post it to the mailing list
05:31	bsteuber	in a mixed clojure/java project, how can I have dependencies in both directions without too much headache?
05:39	Chousuke	bsteuber: probably, as long as they're not circular
05:40	bsteuber	Chousuke: they're not, but I'm not sure how to correctly setup maven
05:40	bsteuber	I thought I read a post about this issue once - but I can't find it anymore
05:42	tomoj	are the java and clojure parts separate modules?
05:42	tomoj	I'm not asking because I think I can help you, just because I'm curious :)
05:43	neotyk	bsteuber: have you considered lein? http://github.com/neotyk/lein-javac
05:44	neotyk	bsteuber: you could try doing something like
05:44	neotyk	***
05:44	neotyk	http://github.com/neotyk/lein-javac/blob/hook/src/leiningen/hooks/javac.clj
05:44	neotyk	as long as you use lein 1.2-RC2
05:45	bsteuber	neotyk: interesting - I once made the choice for maven, but if this issue is easier using lein, I might switch over again
05:47	djpowell	i have mixed clojure/java stuff. i 'solved' it by making a base subproject of java interfaces, then clojure that compiles against them, then the main java project compiles against the clojure
05:47	djpowell	not entirely happy with that tho - doesn't seem very scalable
05:48	djpowell	seems like lots of admin if you need to change things around
05:48	neotyk	bsteuber: I've been have maven user for long time, lein takes all
05:48	neotyk	*** good parts of maven, and improves rest
05:48	djpowell	i use ant btw
05:49	neotyk	djpowell: you know that ant creator have said he is sorry for
05:49	neotyk	*** creating ant?
05:49	bsteuber	I think most use cases will be calling java from clojure from java
05:49	djpowell	i heard that, he must be more polite than the maven creator
05:49	bsteuber	so once back and forth
05:50	djpowell	yeah ant does seem vaguely ridiculous - but if you are doing basic stuff, and you have a project to copy and paste from, it isn't too bad
05:50	neotyk	djpowell: that takes some guts to admit, true
05:51	djpowell	at least I don't have to write a 'module' or whatever maven calls them to do any kind of custom task, and start writing jar files and manifests.
05:51	neotyk	bsteuber: you could create your own plugin for lein it is as
05:51	neotyk	*** simple as putting thinkgs in proper packages
05:52	neotyk	bsteuber: so you would like to build first-part-java, clojure
05:52	neotyk	*** aot, second-part-java?
05:52	bsteuber	but no matter which tool I use, I guess I have to give it the right compilation order, right?
05:52	bsteuber	so compile standalone java classes, then clojure stuff, then dependent java classes
05:53	neotyk	bsteuber: my usecase for lein-java was simple wrapper in java
05:53	neotyk	*** that clj depended upon
05:53	neotyk	I was thinking of it
05:53	bsteuber	would be nice to have an automatic resolution of this
05:54	djpowell	at the moment, my interfaces are defined in java, and the gen-classed clojure is implementation. with clojure 1.2, and protocols, interfaces are more likely to be defined in clojure, so things might need a rethink
05:54	neotyk	that should be no biggie to do with lein-javac
05:54	neotyk	bsteuber: automatic resolution is asking a lot :P
05:54	neotyk	but agree, it would be very nice
05:55	djpowell	it would be handy if you could compile gen-classed stuff in a mode that creates the java linkage classes, but doesn't worry about compiling anything else in there
05:55	bsteuber	sure, always asking for much :)
05:55	djpowell	spose that would work for gen-class, but not for deftype tho
05:56	bsteuber	how about trying to parse import statements from all clj and java files, building a dependency graph and then doint the compilation?
05:56	bsteuber	this could even resolve cyclic deps by inserting dummy methods at first
05:56	neotyk	in java there I ways to include w/o including
05:56	neotyk	Class.forName and alike
05:56	bsteuber	hrmpf
05:57	djpowell	neotyk: that wouldn't matter tho would it
05:57	djpowell	neotyk: if it isn't a compile-time dependency, then you don't need to compile it first
05:57	neotyk	djpowell: true, true
05:57	djpowell	but it isn't just include - explicitly qualified references in code too
05:59	djpowell	easiest way might be to get clojure to compile some stub classes for gen-class, deftype etc, that didn't contain implementation. then compile the java, then either recompile the clojure
05:59	bsteuber	so I guess automatic dependency resolution will never work then, right?
05:59	bsteuber	djpowell: I like that
06:00	bsteuber	would that always work?
06:00	djpowell	no idea
06:01	bsteuber	so how would I implement this, say as a lein plugin
06:02	bsteuber	I guess I'd have to macroexpand the clj files completely to make sure I'll get all gen-class etc.
06:03	bsteuber	and then replace it by dummy defs
06:04	djpowell	I suspect it would be hard
06:04	djpowell	What if the classes corresponding to the parameter types are in the java?
06:05	djpowell	was only a vague idea - probably not practical without some hacking of the compiler, and even then, I haven't thought it through
06:06	bsteuber	djpowell: I agree, too bad
06:06	bsteuber	so I'll have to give the order by hand
06:07	djpowell	would it be practical to avoid using gen-class for linkage and dynamically look up the function from java using RT
06:13	bsteuber	djpowell: maybe, I'll think that over
06:17	robtp	?paste
06:17	robtp	hi - can anyone tell me why http://gist.github.com/473695
06:18	robtp	results in clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.String
06:20	robtp	okay - then my problem actually is that clojure-http.resourcefully/get is somehow being referred in the namespace
06:20	robtp	which i don't want, and i thought i had worked my way around
06:23	esj	robtp: if that's the case then an :exclude clause in the (ns ...) should work around ?
06:24	robtp	esj: but i'm referreing resourcefully as :res, so why does it still trample on clojure.core/get?
06:25	esj	robtp: i haven't a clue :)
06:25	robtp	i can (:refer-clojure :exclude [get]), and then use clojure.core/get
06:25	robtp	i was also wondering why i variously see :use and use, :require and require
06:27	esj	robtp: I might have this wrong but I think its to do with (ns ...) being a macro and (use ...) etc being functions.
06:38	robtp	when does one use binding vs let?
06:41	esj	binding is for dynamic binding, let for lexical
06:41	Chousuke	robtp: they both do binding, but the semantics are very different.
06:41	robtp	if i were to let connect-timeout 10, and then call a fn that checks connect-timeout, would that not have an effect, where binding would?
06:42	Chousuke	right.
06:42	esj	yup
06:42	Chousuke	lexical means code that's "textually" within the scope
06:43	Chousuke	dynamic affects code that's executed within the scope at runtime.
06:43	Chousuke	though note that binding only establishes thread-local dynamic bindings.
06:43	robtp	Chousuke, esj: thanks
06:44	robtp	Chousuke: i think that's all i'm looking for
06:44	Chousuke	also laziness can bite you if you're not careful :)
06:44	Chousuke	altogether dynamic binding can be useful sometimes but it's easy to make mistakes :P
06:45	robtp	hmmm, http://gist.github.com/473714 is not right then
06:45	robtp	connect-timeout is used in res/post
06:46	robtp	but i get an error complaining "cannot resolve var ... in this context"
06:46	robtp	and then my second question is why referring resourcefully as res still causes its get to trample on clojure.core/get
06:46	Chousuke	connect-timeout is in the res-namespace isn't it?
06:46	Chousuke	without the -
06:46	Chousuke	so you need to do (binding [res/connect-timeout] ...)
06:47	Chousuke	robtp: because of :use. you want :require
06:47	Chousuke	robtp: the ns macro is kind of confusing :P
06:48	robtp	why can i write both :use and use, :require and reuqire?
06:48	Chousuke	the :keywords are part of ns structure, use and require are the macros/functions it actually uses to do the work
06:48	robtp	which is preferable to use?
06:49	robtp	hmm (:require [clojure-http.resourcefully :as res] still results in an error?
06:49	Chousuke	It shouldn't. :/
06:49	Chousuke	are you sure you properly re-evaluated everything?
06:49	robtp	no
06:49	Chousuke	if you're in a repl maybe the old stuff is still there
06:50	Chousuke	happens often with slime
07:13	r2q2	Can I generate xml with hiccup?
07:21	robtp	i have a lazy sequence of strings, what's the generally-accepted clean way to force evalutaion - i need to join that sequence - but (str-join "," body-seq) gives me c,l,o,j ... ie the class name
07:33	Chousuke	robtp: call seq on body-seq
07:37	Chousuke	robtp: btw, your annotate function has weird use of assoc
07:37	robtp	what ought i do?
07:37	robtp	this code is probably very un-idiomatic :)
07:38	Chousuke	you're doing (do (assoc options :ontologiesToExpand ontologies) (assoc options :ontologiesToKeepInResult ontologies))
07:38	Chousuke	which doesn't even work
07:38	Chousuke	options never changes.
07:38	Chousuke	it's immutable
07:39	robtp	how can i accomplish that which i'm trying?
07:39	Chousuke	I'm not sure what your intention is
07:40	robtp	set default values
07:40	robtp	so i should probably just merge another map, huh?
07:40	Chousuke	hm
07:41	robtp	wait, no, sorry, i misspoke
07:41	Chousuke	you need to restructure the code first so that you actually capture the new options map
07:41	robtp	if an :ontologies option is given, i want to set those two keys :ontologiesToExpand, ... in options
07:41	Chousuke	right. options is immutable so the way you're doing it does exactly nothing :)
07:42	Chousuke	what you need to do is (let [new-options (assoc options :ontologiesToExpand ontologies, :ontologiesToKeepInResult ontologies)] ...)
07:42	robtp	so if :ontologies is in the options map, i want to set those two keys, otherwise continue as normal
07:43	Chousuke	"set" is kind of imperative terminology
07:43	Chousuke	what you mean is you want a new map with those keys
07:43	robtp	exactly
07:44	Chousuke	the key names are pretty unidiomatic btw. Camelcase is generally avoided.
07:45	robtp	not my choice on that :)
07:45	Chousuke	I'd make a new function for dealing with the defaults
07:46	Chousuke	something like (defn ensure-defaults [options] (if whatever (assoc options :key 'default) options))
07:47	Chousuke	then you can just skip the when-let in annotate and do (let [parameters (select-keys (ensure-defaults options) ...)] ...)
07:49	Chousuke	also your uri, timeout, parse-xml let can be made more idiomatic by using destructuring: (let [{:keys [uri timeout parsexml] :or {:uri default-uri :timeout default-timeout}} options] ...) :)
07:52	robtp	so the doseq part is also ineffective, right?
07:52	Chousuke	ah, yeah
07:52	robtp	the idea there is to join a sequence by commas (this is a web service, some params are comma-delimited lists)
07:53	robtp	i really need to be going, but i'd appreciate if you could leave a suggestion :)
07:53	robtp	thanks for all of your help
07:54	Chousuke	you want (into {} (map (fn [[k v]] (if (vector? v) ...) [k (str-join ...)]) parameters))
07:54	robtp	cool - thanks again
07:54	robtp	this is on tomorrow's todo list...
07:54	Chousuke	ie. for all key-value pairs in the map, return a new key-value pair, and stuff those into an empty map
07:55	Chousuke	remember, maps can be treated as a sequence of [k v] vectors
07:55	robtp	right, i vaguely recalled reading that
07:55	robtp	i'm outta here
07:56	robtp	thanks!
07:56	Chousuke	you're welcome
07:56	Chousuke	it takes a while to get used to doing things the functional way, but you'll get there :P
08:42	kib2	Hi. I have a problem with a macro: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112423
09:01	dnolen	kib2: hard to know what you are trying todo. but remember macros aren't functions. Looks like you want html-region to work like a function. Might make sense to create an fn like html-region* that explicitly takes a symbol for its first parameter. Then the macro html-region will just use that.
09:19	bsteuber	kib2: use another macro! (defmacro html-regions [[names] ...] `(do ,@(for [name names] ...
09:21	kib2	In fact I've translated this article to Clojure: http://cybertiggyr.com/lh/
10:19	AWizzArd	How can set! operate on warn-on-reflection on toplevel?
10:19	AWizzArd	Is warn-on-reflection not an ordinary Var?
10:33	Chousuke	AWizzArd: in a repl?
10:34	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes, in a repl or file.
10:34	Chousuke	AWizzArd: warn-on-reflection is dynamically bound to false by the repl function before the main loop
10:34	AWizzArd	(I typically always set this to true.)
10:48	AWizzArd	Chousuke: thanks for the tip, makes sense.
10:54	Lajla	Chousuke, olet matelijanen
12:00	mattrepl	anyone ever implement a pack/unpack capability for Clojure similar to Python's `struct` module?
12:04	rbxbx	mattrepl: http://snipplr.com/view/13559/serializing-clojure-data-structures/ perhaps?
12:05	mattrepl	rbxbx: thanks, I should've been more specific. I'd like to be able to (de)serialize between byte streams and primitive types
12:07	cschreiner	I'm want a list of n (random-color) Doing (repeat 10 (random-color)) gives me the same color repeatedly. How can I create a list of n length with different (random-color)'s?
12:09	rbxbx	mattrepl: it looks like patches have been proposed a few times, but I'm not sure if there's anything natively available in clojure to do what you'd like. Google and good luck, or maybe someone who knows what's up will chime in :)
12:09	rbxbx	cschreiner: how is random-color implemented?
12:09	mattrepl	yeah, I recall it being mentioned. think I have an opportunity to scratch the itch. =)
12:10	rbxbx	mattrepl: good on you :)
12:10	wlangstroth	cschreiner: what format are the colors taking?
12:10	cschreiner	rbxbx: (defn random-color [] (Color. (n! 255) (n! 255) (n! 255))) and (defn n! [x] (. rnd nextInt x))
12:11	cschreiner	(def rnd (new java.util.Random)
12:11	cschreiner	Color is the java.awt.Color
12:12	rbxbx	hm
12:13	mattrepl	you want repeatedly
12:13	mattrepl	(repeatedly 10 random-color)
12:13	mattrepl	repeat just returns a value n times
12:13	cschreiner	mattrepl: indeed I do, thanks
13:58	robtp	Chousuke: hey, if you're still there question re your suggestion yesterday
13:58	Chousuke	robtp: sure.
13:58	robtp	; also your uri, timeout, parse-xml let can be made more idiomatic by using destructuring: (let [{:keys [uri timeout parsexml] :or {:uri default-uri :timeout default-timeout}} options] ...)
13:59	robtp	i don't understand what that does? the first element of the vector does not even have a name?
14:00	Chousuke	it's map destructuring
14:01	Chousuke	the :keys [keys here] part is a shortcut for {keys :keys here :here} which means "from the map, bind keys to the value of :keys, and here to the value of :here"
14:01	Chousuke	and the :or supplies a "defaults" map that is merged with the actual map that is destructured
14:01	Chousuke	so if a key isn't specified, it's taken from the defaults
14:02	dsantiago	How does one import or typehint nested Java classes?
14:02	lancepantz	dsantiago: you import them like java.lang.Class$Inner
14:02	dsantiago	Ah, OK, thanks.
14:02	Chousuke	,(let [{:keys [foo bar] :or {:foo 1}} {:bar 5}] [foo bar]) like this
14:02	clojurebot	[nil 5]
14:03	Chousuke	hmm, wait.
14:03	duncanm	dum de dum
14:03	Chousuke	oh, damn, :or is only used if the map is not specified at all it seems :(
14:04	robtp	oh wowo, i missed all of that
14:06	robtp	Chousuke: so :keys is a special reserved keyword in destructuring maps?
14:06	Chousuke	robtp: yeah
14:06	robtp	Chousuke: i can just merge the defaults first
14:06	Chousuke	robtp: there's a similar keyword for :syms and :strs
14:06	robtp	to address the :or doesn't work problem
14:06	Chousuke	yep
14:07	qbg	,(let [{:keys [foo bar] :or {foo 1}} {:bar 5}] [foo bar])
14:07	clojurebot	[1 5]
14:07	dpritchett	thanks for the tip on registering, Chousuke
14:07	Chousuke	huh
14:07	Chousuke	oh! I just remembered wrong how the thing works.
14:08	Chousuke	dpritchett: I suppose it should be more prominent in the topic
14:08	Chousuke	or a chanserv notice or something maybe
14:12	robtp	Chousuke: are there docs for :keys :syms :strs anywhere?
14:12	qbg	http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--%28let%20[bindings%20]%20exprs%29
14:13	robtp	qbg: just found that, thanks
14:13	robtp	should've been obvious?
14:30	dpritchett	I realize this is a simple one but could someone critique my first code sample on clojuredocs.org? I'd like to make sure my style is consistent http://clojuredocs.org/v/1553
14:31	qbg	You have a trailing )
14:32	qbg	And with the cond forms being that small, I would put matching pairs on the same line
14:33	qbg	Indentation for the contents of defn is also larger than normal
14:35	dpritchett	i'm wrestling with some auto-indenting in vim
14:35	dpritchett	i don't remember where i got it
14:35	dpritchett	thanks for the tips!
14:40	robtp	Chousuke: in the :or part of the form, i have to use symbols, and not keywords, as the keys
14:40	robtp	meaning i can't define that default-options map earlier
14:43	Chousuke	right. So just use merge?
14:44	robtp	Chousuke: did so, but could i do it the other way?
14:45	Chousuke	if you want to separately define the defaults, then no
15:08	dpritchett	bhenry: Is it normal to remove the test output from clojuredoc exampels? I think it's instructive to see exactly what the repl spits out...
15:08	dpritchett	^examples
15:09	bhenry	i agree? did i accidentally remove something of yours?
15:10	bhenry	i don't know why i agree questionably...
15:10	dpritchett	Whoops - looks like I accidentally removed it myself and then you edited something else.
15:10	dpritchett	My bad, thanks for improving the example I posted.
15:11	bhenry	yes i like your style of posting the user=> stuff. i just displayed my output in a comment in the code sample.
15:28	bhenry	dpritchett your example for bound? isn't a good example of how you'd use it http://clojuredocs.org/v/1947
15:29	dpritchett	I am an FP neophyte, feel free to replace it with something better
15:29	dpritchett	I'm just stubbing out some of the functions I don't know very well by testing them at the REPL
15:30	bhenry	i just lost my terminal and it seems as though only a restart will bring it back. i will try it in a bit.
15:32	Raynes	Why does clojure.java.shell/sh print out "{:out UTF-8, :dir nil, :env nil}" every time it'se called?
15:32	Raynes	it's*
15:33	technomancy	Raynes: bugzors
15:33	technomancy	clojurebot: ticket #398
15:33	Raynes	clojure.java.anything seems to be buggy. :\
15:33	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/2c4paol, :summary "Stray println snuck into clojure.java.shell/sh", :status :fixed, :priority :normal, :created-on "2010-07-08T17:28:57-07:00"}
15:34	Raynes	raek: Did you ever create an issue for that bug you found in clojure.java.io?
15:34	Raynes	Whoa, there is a clojure.string now? :o!
15:44	TimMc	Raynes: Link?
15:45	ataggart	clojure.string shows up in clojuredocs but not the official api docs
15:47	Raynes	TimMc: Link to what?
15:47	TimMc	Raynes: clojure.string
15:49	Raynes	http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/string.clj
15:49	dpritchett	Just finished adding simple explanations to all of the boolean functions I could find on clojuredocs.org
15:50	dpritchett	the ones ending in ? anyway
15:50	TimMc	Raynes: Ah, much obliged.
15:53	TimMc	Man, how come I never heard of this site?
15:53	TimMc	(Clojuredocs)
15:53	rbxbx	It's about 3 days old, for starters ;)
15:53	Raynes	Because it came out about 3 days ago.
15:53	ataggart	impressive for being so new
15:54	dpritchett	Warning: built with Rails ;)
15:54	technomancy	that's a shame; it means they can't use the reader to verify that the examples are syntactically correct.
15:55	jkkramer	there's also http://clojure-examples.appspot.com/ written in clojure ;)
15:56	jkkramer	not as featureful though
16:05	pjstadig	maybe if it's run on jruby there's a chance to clojurify
16:12	rbxbx	Does anyone have Conjure up and running on mysql with 0.7(RC1 or RC2) ?
16:19	eevar_	random question: if you wander off the beaten path and use clojure; why stick with mysql as your rdbms?
16:20	qbg	Why not?
16:20	rbxbx	agreed.
16:20	rbxbx	perhaps for relational data? ;)
16:20	lpetit	eevar_: maybe because mysql is not your current rdbms :-p
16:21	rbxbx	ah
16:21	eevar_	because it's a crappy non-standard toy-db retrofitted to something nearly-acid-compliant?
16:21	rbxbx	touche. the default one conjure uses is h2, and I don't want to use their heinous web interface for database management
16:22	rbxbx	and I was being lazy because it offers support for mysql out of the box (or at least it does in theory)
16:23	bozhidar	rbxbx: you don't have to use the web interface
16:23	rbxbx	ha! I wonder who dirtmcgirt is, anyone that likes FP and ODB is a friend of mine.
16:23	bozhidar	I use H2 heavily
16:23	bozhidar	and love it
16:23	rbxbx	no?
16:23	rbxbx	hm
16:23	bozhidar	but hate the interface also
16:23	bozhidar	so I use it from my IDE
16:23	rbxbx	I did a cursory glance of the docs and didn't see connecting via other means.
16:23	bozhidar	(insert here Eclipse/NetBeans/IntelliJ)
16:24	bozhidar	everything that has jdbc support
16:24	rbxbx	ah. is there a cli client?
16:24	bozhidar	can be used to work with h2
16:24	rbxbx	I don't use an ide :\
16:24	bozhidar	you can use http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/ I guess
16:24	bozhidar	I use Emacs most of the time
16:25	bozhidar	but for Java development I find myself forced to use an IDE
16:26	rbxbx	perhaps I'll give an IDE another chance, have heard that eclipse has decent support for Vi bindings :\
16:26	bozhidar	I wish every language had some good mode like slime, cperl, ccmode, but unfortunately that is not the case...
16:26	rbxbx	or learn emacs ;_;
16:26	bozhidar	IntelliJ has decent support as well
16:27	bozhidar	and an open source edition
16:27	rbxbx	fantastic :)
16:27	bozhidar	since several months
16:27	rbxbx	sorry for the newbish questions, the java ecosystem is still very o_O to me though.
16:27	bozhidar	and Emacs has viper-mode for hardcore vi users ;-)
16:27	rbxbx	and google just doesn't cut it sometimes.
16:27	rbxbx	I've tried emacs in viper-mode
16:27	rbxbx	it went OK-ish.
16:28	bozhidar	nothing can replace the human interaction :-)
16:28	rbxbx	:D
16:29	rbxbx	perhaps the better clojure tooling is worth taking another stab though, last time I had no real reason for trying it.
16:31	nickik	I used eclipse but the startuptime and some otherthings where bad. So I went headfirst into emacs ....
16:31	nickik	still hard
16:32	nickik	have to trie that viper-mode so I don't have to learn to mutch new stuff at once :)
16:32	rbxbx	aye.
16:32	rbxbx	I've even started learning some java in support of this clojure addiction :(
16:33	mattrepl	nickik: have you read yegge's bit on emacs? http://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs
16:36	nickik	@mattrepl "The tips in this little document are geared towards Emacs power-users"
16:37	mattrepl	nickik: heh, I never noticed that. it was one of the articles that convinced me to learn emacs
16:37	nickik	but thx I will read if as soon i have some basics. I can't even copy or cut stuff jet
16:39	rbxbx	that's actually what caused me to pursue emacs the first time (now clojure)
16:39	nickik	Can you help me with that? What are these shortcuts <cut> <copy>
16:39	mattrepl	nickik: have you become famliiar with EmacsWiki? http://www.emacswiki.com.org
16:40	mattrepl	nickik: sure
16:40	rbxbx	alt+d and ctrl+y aye?
16:41	rbxbx	er.
16:41	mattrepl	C-w (ctrl + w) is kill-region. this is roughly equivalent to "cut"
16:42	mattrepl	M-w (meta + w) is kill-ring-save which is sort of like "copy". there's more going on behind the scene, just search emacswiki for kill ring to learn more about the implementation
16:43	mattrepl	if you want to paste, C-y
16:43	nickik	mattrepl: Didn't look in any wikis so far. I spend to mutch time on tools stuff. Atm I just want to keep reading Joy of Clojure.
16:44	nickik	But I going to do the tutorial stuff that is in emacs eventully
16:44	mattrepl	and, to cut/copy a region you'll want to be able to define that reigion. Move your cursor to where you want the region to begin, hit C-Space, then jump to the end of the region.
16:45	mattrepl	yeah, that's a lot to learn at once. Lisp does seem to bring many to Emacs
16:47	nickik	I never liked the IDE stuff to mutch
16:48	nickik	Not to mention swank, paredit, slime ....
16:55	dpritchett	I'm playing in emacs with clojure-mode and viper-mode
16:56	dpritchett	I dunno if that's going to confuse me more than it helps but I feel like I'm making progress moreso than I would with vi or vanilla emacs
17:20	TimMc	Can clojure.core/for do filtering? I see :when, but I can't get it to affect anything.
17:21	kotarak	,(for [x [:Tim :Mc] :when (not= x :Mc)] x)
17:21	clojurebot	(:Tim)
17:21	qbg	,(for [x (range 3) :when (even? x) y (range 3)] [x y])
17:21	clojurebot	([0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [2 0] [2 1] [2 2])
17:23	alexyk	how do I find out teh number of CPUs avaiable for the JVM?
17:23	TimMc	Oh, so :when takes a test, not a function.
17:23	qbg	(.. Runtime getRuntime availableProcessors)
17:23	TimMc	I was using a function, which of course was always "true". :-P
17:24	alexyk	qbg: thx
17:25	qbg	(stole that from the source of pmap)
17:31	anonymouse89	anyone a vimclojure user? I'm trying to install and am confused by gradle/clojuresque etc.
17:33	dpritchett	I've tried vimclojure a few times but didn't get too far. It
17:33	dpritchett	's worth noting the stable release is nearly a year old
17:44	dakrone	anonymouse89: are you installing from a zip, or from source/hgclone?
17:46	anonymouse89	dakrone: source seems very old so I was trying source/hg but was running into trouble with clojuresque/gradle
17:46	anonymouse89	sorry zip seems old
17:47	dakrone	anonymouse89: I'd recommend trying the snapshots, they're very recent: http://groups.google.com/group/vimclojure/msg/ce3fe24b57372799
17:48	dakrone	that way you don't have to mess with gradle
17:55	anonymouse89	dakrone: that's perfect. he should update his site.
17:56	dakrone	yea, that build is an RC, so hopefully we'll see the actual release on the site soon.
17:56	anonymouse89	ah, so he just picked up work on it again (?)
17:57	dakrone	yea, check out the mailing list if you have any problems or questions
18:12	neotyk	Hi *
18:13	neotyk	do you know if aleph can be used to stream?
18:29	alexyk	I'm doing social networking research and am wondering how many folks here have a github account, and whether you guys use the same nick here and there?
18:29	alexyk	also, on twitter?
18:34	TimMc	alexyk: I do. No Twitter. I'd guess the channel as a whole is a mix, and there are a lot of people in here.
18:35	alexyk	TimMc: so far I found many who have the whole three. Which makes me ponder various data mining schemes.
18:36	TimMc	I tend to use TimMc/timmc for more professional accounts (code publishing, e.g.) and phyzome for personal stuff.
18:36	TimMc	However, both are public nicks.
18:37	alexyk	TimMc: ok
18:37	alexyk	TimMc: why no twitter yet? :)
18:37	TimMc	Technically, I have one, but don't use it. I find it utterly useless.
18:38	Raynes	alexyk: I has a github account.
18:38	Raynes	And a Twitter account.
18:38	Raynes	Github account is the same as my nick here.
18:38	Raynes	IORaynes on Twitter, because Raynes is taken.
18:38	alexyk	Raynes: as a Haskell man, you're a superior being and are not to be overunderestimated
18:39	Raynes	o.o
18:39	TimMc	alexyk: You should grab the /who list and check it against GitHub and Twitter.
18:39	TimMc	Perhaps you could even use clojure for that... ;-)
18:40	alexyk	TimMc: I found many programming language people are using twitter with a language tag to publish their own stuff or retweet others' cool ones, say with #clojure
18:40	alexyk	TimMc: yeah, clojure is good for this kind of stuff
18:40	TimMc	That will make your program even easier to write. :-)
18:42	Raynes	alexyk: You could use gotmilk to look for accounts. ;) $#google gotmilk github#$
18:42	sexpbot	First out of 11 results is: jfkw's Profile - GitHub
18:42	sexpbot	http://github.com/jfkw
18:42	Raynes	Aw.
18:42	Raynes	I figured it would be the first result.
18:42	Raynes	alexyk: http://github.com/Raynes/gotmilk
18:42	Raynes	:p
18:43	alexyk	see, he got milk first or what
18:43	alexyk	Raynes: is it a repo for facialized ads or what?
18:44	alexyk	...ah, more boring stuff :)
18:44	Raynes	Huh? O.o
18:44	alexyk	got milk ads, mind you! but, command line is very cool too
18:44	Raynes	Haha.
18:45	alexyk	dnolen: are you a contributor for Incanter?
18:46	alexyk	Raynes: so you suggest to google github nicks by repo name?
18:46	dnolen	alexyk: no
18:46	alexyk	Raynes: cool
18:46	Raynes	alexyk: gotmilk is a tool for doing github stuff without going to the github website. Such as searching for users, getting info about users and such. I was implying you could use it for that.
18:47	lancepantz	alexyk: i believe rapleaf's service does something along the lines of what you are suggesting
18:47	lancepantz	not even sure if those guys are still around
18:48	lancepantz	i use this nick for github, irc, twitter, reddit, digg, facebook, xbox live, psn
18:50	Raynes	Way to be inconsistent, Github.
18:50	Raynes	If searching repos, it returns "username" rather than "owner" which it uses for pretty much everything else repo-related.
18:51	alexyk	Raynes: very very cool.
18:52	Raynes	:D
19:51	TimMc	Ooh, I think I found a bug in clojure.contrib.sql -- how do I check if one has already been filed?
19:52	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: assembla?
19:52	clojurebot	assembla is http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure
19:52	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: botsnack
19:52	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
19:55	TimMc	Ah!
19:55	TimMc	I did a web search for Clojure bugs and nothing came up.
19:56	defn	lancepantz: get your jruby + rails + clojure bridge code online yet? :X
19:56	lancepantz	haha
19:56	lancepantz	saw your message last week, tried to get back, you were gone
19:56	defn	ah, sorry
19:56	lancepantz	but it's actually rails + clojure, not jrails
19:57	lancepantz	goes through a compojure api
19:59	TimMc	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/sql.clj#L137 <- Column names are not wrapped in backticks, so MySQL is choking on table names like "foo-bar".
20:01	TimMc	Looks like a bug, yeah? Or is there some JDBC/MySQL/etc. nonsense that I'm not aware of?
20:43	map_reduce	,(range 10)
20:43	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
20:44	map_reduce	hey, i was reading through the src code for lazy-seq and I noticed a reference to fn, but I can't find the definition for fn or reader macro. Can someone explain wheat the fn* means?
20:50	tomoj	,(contains? clojure.lang.Compiler/specials 'fn*)
20:50	clojurebot	true
20:52	map_reduce	ah, thanks :)
20:52	tomoj	it's just a primitive special form, you'd never use it I think
20:54	tomoj	not sure why lazy-seq uses it when fn is available
20:54	map_reduce	fair nuff, i'm just trying to learn by going through the source code
20:54	tomoj	I believe you should be safe pretending that the fn* there is fn, as far as understanding lazy-seq
20:54	tomoj	,((fn* [x] x) 3)
20:54	clojurebot	3
20:54	tomoj	just missing some features of fn I guess
20:55	map_reduce	gotcha, cool
20:57	tomoj	I wonder what that ^{:once true} stuff is
20:58	TeXnomancy	it's for futures and delays IIRC
20:58	TeXnomancy	kind of a low-level memoization
21:00	tomoj	,(meta (first (nth (macroexpand-1 '(lazy-seq nil)) 2)))
21:00	clojurebot	{:once true}
21:00	tomoj	,(first (nth (macroexpand-1 '(lazy-seq nil)) 2))
21:00	clojurebot	fn*
21:04	map_reduce	hmph, fn* is a Symbol, weird
21:06	tomoj	weird why?
21:09	map_reduce	I would have expected to see someting like clojure.core$fn*
21:09	map_reduce	with my limited 2 week experience of clojure.... :)
21:15	TimMc	map_reduce: I am also a beginner, but...
21:15	TimMc	fn* is a "special form", meaning it is defined by the compiler, not by calls to other Clojure code.
21:17	map_reduce	I gather so, tomoj just introduced me to clojure.core.Compiler so I'm largely talking out of my a** right now...
21:17	TimMc	Unlike "when" and "repeatedly" and such, it is one of the true primitives of the language.
21:17	map_reduce	sorry, clojure.lang.Compiler
21:18	map_reduce	still, I expected to see an underlying Java class other than Symbol but I'm sure all this will make more sense as I keep learning
21:20	TimMc	What I'm gathering is that all "names" are symbols, just that some are at the compile-time level and others at run-time.
21:20	TimMc	(Experts, please jump in to correct my educated wild-ass guesses.)
21:23	map_reduce	crud, i had to run, but I'll check the logs later to see if an expert clears this up:) thanks for the help everyone!
21:24	TimMc	Each symbol has a name and a namespace.
21:25	tomoj	hmm
21:26	tomoj	I wonder if map_reduce would have also been surprised that + is a symbol, given:
21:26	tomoj	,+
21:26	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@1643de1>
21:26	TimMc	Hah.
21:26	stuarthalloway	,(.getNamespace 'plain-symbol)
21:26	clojurebot	nil
21:27	stuarthalloway	,(.getNamespace 'org.clojure/foo)
21:27	clojurebot	"org.clojure"
21:27	TimMc	Hrm.
21:27	TimMc	So, fully-qualified symbols have a namespace.
21:28	stuarthalloway	what was the original question?
21:28	TimMc	"Why is fn* a Symbol in clojure.lang.Compiler?"
21:29	stuarthalloway	implementation detail
21:30	stuarthalloway	no deep conceptual significance
21:30	TimMc	I had claimed that it was a compiler primitive, instead of being definable in terms of further Clojure.
21:31	TimMc	...but I'm a newb with just enough compiler education to confuse other newbs. :-P
21:34	tomoj	oh, he meant FN?
21:35	TimMc	tomoj: I believe so.
21:35	alexyk	is there a "flip" function to splice ->> / -> arguments into front or back as needed?
21:36	clojay	Guys, I need some help. I'm switching from procedural and OO programming to functional programming. In particular I'm interested in Lisp dialects (especially Clojure). I'm looking for books that will help me learn how to think as a functional programmer, and how to write idiomatic Lisp/Clojure code. I'm a good programmer but I would probably struggle to write a compiler, a simple computer algebra system, or even a well written html parser.
21:36	clojay	budget is somewhat limited ($100) but I'd like to get a couple of good books that will blow my mind and help me become a better functional programmer. There are countless books out there and it's hard to pick something within my budget. What are your suggestions? I already own the available Clojure books.
21:36	alexyk	(-> "x" (apply flip get mymap))
21:36	defn	there's one that's escaping my brain right now clojay
21:36	alexyk	or something
21:36	defn	it's a book on FP algorithms IIRC
21:37	clojay	defn: purely functional data structures?
21:37	defn	yes!
21:37	defn	definitely worth a buy
21:37	alexyk	clojay: Real World Haskell
21:37	TimMc	clojay: I learned Scheme with HTDP: http://htdp.org/
21:37	tomoj	alexyk: it wouldn't work anyway
21:37	alexyk	tomoj: well how 'bout a macro?
21:38	tomoj	(-> "x" (apply flip get mymap)) is (apply "x" flip get mymap)
21:38	alexyk	tomoj true
21:38	clojay	alexyk: I'm afraid Real World Haskell would be a little too far from Clojure
21:38	tomoj	alexyk: don't ask for a macro that generalizes -> and ->> :P
21:38	alexyk	clojay: well if you want FP, than it's FP
21:38	TimMc	clojay: HtDP helps you think in terms of algebraic data structures. I suspect SICP does that too, but I haven't read it.
21:39	alexyk	tomoj: all I ask is to move the damn arg into front dammit! :)
21:39	TimMc	HDP is free to read online, though. :-P
21:39	clojay	TimMc: so is SICP
21:39	TimMc	Yay!
21:39	alexyk	clojay: and RWH too :)
21:39	clojay	TimMc: but yes, SICP and HDTP are two possible candidates
21:40	TimMc	PLT Scheme was very friendly to learn.
21:40	alexyk	clojay: skip it all and get TheJoyofClojure.com by our very own Chouser-san
21:40	TimMc	That's what they use in the freshman Fundamentals of Computer Science course at my university.
21:40	mikem	anyone mentioned Practical Common Lisp? http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
21:40	tomoj	really?
21:41	clojay	mikem: apparently CL is not very functional
21:41	tomoj	oh, I had missed that idiomatic lisp was also part of the question
21:41	clojay	alexyk: I'm planning to get The Joy of Clojure when it's finished
21:42	alexyk	clojay: or you can get the MEAP PDF and read it on screen or kindle
21:42	mikem	yeah, i sense some dislike towards PCL in this channel :) i dono, it helped me grok the Lisp approach. as well as The Little Schemer
21:42	qbg	PCL is good for CL; not so much for Clojure
21:43	clojay	I guess my bigger question is, am I mostly wasting time by reading books that are written for Scheme and CL, when I'm trying to become a kick butt Clojure programmer?
21:43	alexyk	so, a macro to move an arg to the front, going 1...
21:44	TimMc	clojay: I think the answer will partly depend on whether existing Clojure books assume you are already familiar with FP.
21:45	tomoj	I think reading scheme books is an excellent idea
21:45	alexyk	the little schemer
21:45	chouser	On Lisp is great
21:45	alexyk	or lisper
21:46	qbg	The SICP lecture videos are classics
21:46	alexyk	PCL makes for good toilet reading, pardon my French
21:46	chouser	You might not want to dig too deep into CL-specific stuff -- that's a very deep vein, but the deeper you go the less it has to do with Clojure, I suspect.
21:47	alexyk	in about 53 sittings you can finish PCL, and it's what it deserves as it's not very fun.
21:47	clojay	chouser: How about this progression? Programming Clojure + Little Schemer + SICP + The Joy of Clojure?
21:48	chouser	Haven't read the middle two, but from what I know that doesn't sound too bad.
21:48	stuarthalloway	and if you get tired before you are done at least you started well :-)
21:48	alexyk	clojay: just cut from PC to TJoC! :)
21:49	clojay	stuarthalloway: haha
21:49	stuarthalloway	clojar: I liked Little Schemer, but it will be redundant with the others
21:49	alexyk	stuarthalloway: when's the 1.2 edition?
21:49	stuarthalloway	alexyk: of what?
21:49	alexyk	stuarthalloway: of your one! :)
21:50	stuarthalloway	I am working on this 1.2 edition: http://clojure.org/downloads
21:50	TimMc	stuarthalloway: I found what I believe is a bug in clojure.contrib.sql. Do I simply file a ticket on Assembla?
21:50	stuarthalloway	TimMc: please discuss on mailing list first
21:50	TimMc	Clojure-dev?
21:50	clojurebot	clojure-dev is the eclipse plugin http://code.google.com/p/clojure-dev/
21:50	alexyk	stuarthalloway: I'll buy the 1.2-synced book of yours in 2 copies at once, paper and kindle!
21:51	stuarthalloway	TimMc: main list is fine
21:51	TimMc	Ah, OK.
21:51	stuarthalloway	main list can help rally support, if others are also feeling the pain
21:51	alexyk	stuarthalloway: specifically would like to see a concise explication of the new 1.2 features. Given there's a settled subset of those, you can start a MEAP/PragProg draft! I'll buy that right away too.
21:52	clojay	stuarthalloway: when will the new edition of your book be released?
21:52	alexyk	(even before prims are settled)
21:52	stuarthalloway	well, gosh
21:52	TimMc	stuarthalloway: The Clojure-dev page said scary things about Contributor Agreements. :-P
21:52	chouser	stuarthalloway: how can you say no?
21:52	stuarthalloway	there is no new edition in the works
21:52	clojay	stuarthalloway: oh, sorry
21:52	alexyk	stuarthalloway: until now! :) clojay: don't weaken your flank
21:52	stuarthalloway	but I have done extensive slide decks (free!) and a video
21:53	stuarthalloway	Most of the 1.2 stuff is covered at http://github.com/stuarthalloway/clojure-presentations/downloads
21:53	clojay	stuarthalloway: can you tell me how your book differs from Practical Clojure (the Apress one)
21:53	stuarthalloway	and protocols are at http://vimeo.com/11236603
21:53	alexyk	ok! cool. Still printed book feels like The Truth.
21:54	stuarthalloway	clojay: I sit next to the author of PracCloj, but I haven't read it yet :-)
21:54	clojay	stuarthalloway: Is it a parallel universe where all Clojure saints are sent to?
21:55	stuarthalloway	clojay: kind of :-) http://clojure.com/about.html
21:56	tomoj	data encapsulation is folly, huh
21:57	alexyk	how do we diff two maps?
21:57	alexyk	subtract
21:57	clojay	has anyone tried The Joy of Clojure on Kindle? Does it look good?
21:58	alexyk	clojay: reasonable
21:58	alexyk	(on teh old DX)
21:58	tomoj	alexyk: you mean take two maps, throw out the keys they share (and the associated values), and merge the rest?
21:59	alexyk	tomoj: even simpler, throw out the keys from m2 whihc are in m2
21:59	alexyk	dissoc I guess
21:59	clojay	alexyk: i may go for the ebook version then
21:59	tomoj	throw out the keys from m1 which are in m2, you mean?
21:59	alexyk	tomoj: yeah
22:00	alexyk	clojay: you'll enjoy it
22:00	clojay	If I get this right, Scheme is closer to Clojure than Common Lisp is. And Clojure is purely functional, unlike both Scheme and CL which are multi-paradigm. Scheme less so, but still is. Right?
22:00	stuarthalloway	qbg: let me know if you have questions
22:02	stuarthalloway	if anybody wants to download the 1.2 beta and tell me if they see any problems, that would be great
22:02	qbg	stuarthalloway: It says the docs are at http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/
22:02	qbg	Given the move of the repos, shouldn't that be updated?
22:03	stuarthalloway	yeah
22:03	alexyk	stuarthalloway: how are the prims settled then?
22:03	stuarthalloway	alexyk: Release.next
22:04	mikem	stuarthalloway: I had some issues with adding metadata to functions: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f2594a96860f4f91#
22:04	alexyk	ok
22:04	mikem	maybe I was doing it wrong?
22:05	stuarthalloway	,(let [f ^{:awesome true} (fn [])] (meta f))
22:05	clojurebot	{:awesome true}
22:05	qbg	stuarthalloway: get is listed twice at the end
22:05	qbg	(section 4)
22:05	stuarthalloway	thanks, fixed
22:05	qbg	So is count
22:05	stuarthalloway	mikem: that was a trivial example of doing it right
22:06	mikem	stuarthalloway: i'm not sure how to translate that properly when using defn
22:06	stuarthalloway	mikem: and yes, there are issues with fn metadata. Consider it alpha
22:07	mikem	stuarthalloway: ah, noted :) at least it's coming
22:08	clojay	How oudated is programming clojure now that 1.2 is coming out?
22:09	clojay	oudated -> outdated
22:11	stuarthalloway	clojay: almost nothing is wrong
22:11	stuarthalloway	but more could now be said
22:11	clojay	stuarthalloway: got it
22:12	stuarthalloway	the only significant chance since the book is the metadata reader macro, formerly #^ and now ^
22:16	alexyk	stuarthalloway: were you in Philly before and in Durham now?
22:16	stuarthalloway	alexyk: for some values of before :-)
22:16	stuarthalloway	but i have not lived in Philly
22:16	alexyk	stuarthalloway: I thought you were there for some reason
22:17	alexyk	(I used to live there)
22:17	alexyk	so Durham is far from anything, I bet you guys move to SF in 1 year
22:17	stuarthalloway	alexyk; not likely :-)
22:17	alexyk	stuarthalloway: Seattle then :)
22:19	alexyk	or, let's say you'll have to open an office in the Bay Area. Just a bet.
22:20	clojay	ok, I'll ask one last stupid question, and then I'll go back to my Clojure reading. Will there be Kindle editions of the Manning books about Clojure?
22:22	alexyk	clojay: I think so; but I'd buy from Manning directly as you'd get upgrades. PragProg gives you mobi and epub and PDF, and so does O'Reilly. I'd buy ebook from teh publishers since Amazon doesn't have an upgrade path.
22:23	alexyk	(and treats ebook just as a paper book for now in terms of one-off-ness)
22:23	clojay	alexyk: I thought Amazon would give you a significantly better version though (when read on a Kindle dx)
22:24	alexyk	clojay: I bought some very crappy PDF versions for DX. They get them from publishers anyways
22:24	clojay	(in terms of layout, etc)
22:24	alexyk	clojay: the best is mobi converted by publisher
22:24	alexyk	i.e. from PragProg, .mobi is better than PDF on the Kindle
22:24	alexyk	PDF is for the computer and search
22:26	clojay	alexyk: too bad Manning doesn't offer a .mobi
22:26	alexyk	clojay: they were talking about offering it somewhere/at some point IIRC
22:26	alexyk	and/or we can bug them
22:30	robtp	what does the "" denote: ([f args argseq])?
22:33	robtp	ahh, okay, varargs
22:34	robtp	so & name is end-defn varargs, name* is middle of defn? or is that completely wrong?
22:34	rhudson	Where are you seeing arg* ?
22:35	robtp	,(doc apply)
22:35	clojurebot	"([f args* argseq]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending args to argseq."
22:36	clojay	how do I "unpack" a list? If my-list is '(1 2 3) (max my-list) returns my-list. I'd like to unpack it so that I get something like (max 1 2 3).
22:36	rhudson	OK, that's notation for the usual 0-or-more meaning of * . It's not part of Clojure syntax per se.
22:36	robtp	clojay: that's what apply is for
22:36	robtp	rhudson: ahh, got it
22:36	robtp	clojay: which is exactly what i was just looking at
22:37	clojay	robtp: oh we had a similar problem then
22:37	robtp	rhudson: so the definition of apply is actually like (defn apply [fn & more]), and the seq is taken as the last element of more?
22:37	robtp	and the args are any remaining elements
22:38	clojay	(apply max my-list)
22:38	robtp	clojay: looks right to me?
22:38	clojay	robtp: it works
22:38	Raynes	apply is a macro.
22:38	rhudson	(apply f a b [c d e f]) is equivalent to (f a b c d e f)
22:39	tomoj	,apply
22:39	clojurebot	#<core$apply clojure.core$apply@1b55ca5>
22:39	Raynes	Isn't it?
22:39	Raynes	Oh. It isn't.
22:41	rhudson	,(apply map + [[1 2 3], [10 20 30]])
22:41	clojurebot	(11 22 33)
22:43	robtp	rhudson: whoa, i thought map took one fn argument, *args, and an argseq
22:43	robtp	how is having that + in there legit?
22:44	tomoj	*args can be [+]
22:44	rhudson	map takes 1 or more seq arguments, and applies the function to elements in the same position until the shortest seq is exhausted
22:44	rhudson	(map + [1 2 3] [10 20 30])
22:46	clojay	so apply basically removes one set of parenthesis?
22:46	rhudson	(map vector [:a :b :c] [1 2 3] [4 5])
22:46	rhudson	That's one way to think of it.
22:47	rhudson	,(apply max [3 1 4 1 5 9])
22:47	clojurebot	9
22:47	cemerick	clojay: that sort of shorthand is going to trip you up eventually
22:48	robtp	rhudson: that (apply map + double-vec) is still freaky
22:48	cemerick	apply invokes the provided fn with the provided arguments
22:49	clojay	cemerick: ok, but that doesn't explain this one: (apply map + [[1 2 3] [10 20 30]]) So apply invokes map to the provided arguments which are?
22:50	robtp	rhudson: so behind the scenes, what does (apply map + [[etc] [etc2]]) look like
22:50	robtp	clojay: the provided arguments are + and [[vec] [vec2]]
22:50	tomoj	no, +, [1 2 3], and [10 20 30]
22:50	cemerick	clojay: that's functionally equivalent to (map + [1 2 3] [10 20 30])
22:51	robtp	which i think becomes (+ (1 2 3) (10 20 30))
22:51	tomoj	eh?
22:51	robtp	tomoj: apply doesn't seem to give any special treatment to a + in that pesition
22:51	tomoj	there is no special treatment indeed
22:51	tomoj	+ is just passed to map the same way apply passes args to any function
22:51	cemerick	The point is, the fn and the arguments are data that do not need to be coincident with the apply usage.
22:51	robtp	tomoj: oh, i think we agree, i read "no, +, [1 2 3] and [10 20 30]" wrong
22:52	robtp	cool, thanks all
22:53	cemerick	e.g.:
22:53	cemerick	,(let [some-data [(range 10) (range 30 50)]] (apply map + some-data))
22:53	clojurebot	(30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48)
22:54	robtp	cemerick: so (range a b) attempts to match the other given range?
22:54	cemerick	,(doc range)
22:54	clojurebot	"([] [end] [start end] [start end step]); Returns a lazy seq of nums from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive), by step, where start defaults to 0, step to 1, and end to infinity."
22:54	robtp	wait, nevermind
22:54	cemerick	,(range 5 10)
22:54	robtp	math issues
22:54	clojurebot	(5 6 7 8 9)
22:56	rhudson	Note that the first range has 10 elements, the second 20, and the result (using map) has 10
22:56	robtp	yeah, i got that now. math is tough!
22:56	cemerick	This might help, insofar as it is very clear about the args going into apply having nothing to do with literals:
22:57	cemerick	,(apply + (take 10 (repeatedly rand)))
22:57	clojurebot	4.596899040906102
22:59	clojay	wtf... we have a repeatedly function?
22:59	cemerick	remarkably useful
22:59	clojay	fantastic
22:59	scgilardi	oh yes, it's very nice
23:00	cemerick	scgilardi: hi Stephen, long time no chat :-)
23:00	scgilardi	heya chas. good to see you too.
23:00	cemerick	what are you up to these days?
23:01	scgilardi	working on fun stuff at Sonian... (avengers and all that)
23:01	clojay	I know it's a Lisp but to be honest Clojure looks a bit like Haskell to me
23:02	cemerick	right, right; forgot you were there, sorry. You're the quiet one. ;-)
23:02	defn	Then you don't know Haskell ;)
23:02	scgilardi	fell behind on mailing list and chat, but trying to catch up
23:02	danlarkin	it's impossible
23:02	danlarkin	there's too much
23:03	scgilardi	6000 message backlogs are daunting
23:03	cemerick	clojay: there's lots of influences
23:03	defn	you could probably finish it all in a few days
23:03	cemerick	I manage to keep up for a while, fall behind for around 5K, and then just dump and start over.
23:03	defn	lots of it you wont care to read anyway
23:03	danlarkin	my clojure ML backlog is 22445 :)
23:03	scgilardi	dan wins again!
23:04	danlarkin	lazy execution wins again!
23:06	wdouglas	Is there an idiomatic way of getting for with two seqs to return a dot product instead of all combinations of the seqs?
23:08	qbg	If it doesn't need to be in for, you could use map
23:08	clojay	by the way thoughts on Clojure in Action? (it looks like it will be completed in 2011 but the MEAP give us access to a bunch of chapters already)
23:08	wdouglas	I was having a tough time making map work for my case
23:09	rhudson	wdouglas: (map dot seq1 seq2) didn't do it for you?
23:09	wdouglas	I think I can do it but goodness it'd be really easy with for
23:09	qbg	,(for [x (map vector [:a :b :c] [:do :re :mi])] x)
23:09	clojurebot	([:a :do] [:b :re] [:c :mi])
23:10	wdouglas	qbg: oh
23:10	cemerick	clojay: Joy of Clojure is more my style, but YMMV.
23:10	wdouglas	qbg: Very nice
23:11	clojay	cemerick: I was thinking AND more than OR
23:11	cemerick	shrug :-)
23:12	clojay	cemerick: got it
23:12	tomoj	just use (map vector ..) unless you need the for for some other reason
23:47	Bahman	Hi all!
23:47	qbg	Hello Bahman
23:47	Bahman	Hi qbg!
23:52	miltondsilva	ok... so I want to disprove the whole "the right tool for the job" thing with some empirical evidence... but before I make a proposal(on clojure group), I would like to discuse some ideas... anyone up for this? maybe several people?
23:53	tomoj	what is the whole "the right tool for the right job" thing?
23:53	jhawk28	use a hammer when you need a hammer or a screwdriver when you need a screwdriver
23:53	jhawk28	makes you more productive
23:54	tomoj	so miltondsilva wants to prove that you would be more productive using a screwdriver when you need a hammer?
23:54	tomoj	seems unlikely..
23:54	miltondsilva	hmmm...
23:55	miltondsilva	ok so... I think that there is a better programming language... something like a silver bullet
23:55	miltondsilva	yes yes.. ridicule
23:55	miltondsilva	but
23:55	miltondsilva	the think is.. I can't find any paper.. study or something like that... that studies this
23:56	miltondsilva	the thing*
23:56	technomancy	you don't need a study to tell you that you can't use a language with a 2MB runtime for embedded work.
23:56	technomancy	nor a language that relies on persistent data structures in an environment without a good GC
23:57	jhawk28	sometimes its a good sales technique to get your management to let you use a bunch of different tools
23:57	miltondsilva	but why can't you use a common descriptor to express your ideas? and have it compile to whatever you want?
23:59	jhawk28	different dynamics of languages produce vastly different results
23:59	jhawk28	and everyone has their opinion about each one
23:59	jhawk28	after all, text editors all to the same thing, but try convince someone that emacs is better than vim or vice versa
23:59	miltondsilva	yes! it's all about opinion.. so I would like to get some facts...