#clojure – 2010-06-05

2010-06-05

00:21	lancepantz	does anyone know how you would go about creating an ant task that launches a repl?
00:22	lancepantz	i expect to be able to use the Java task, but jline.ConsoleRunner as my class with the clojure.main argument
00:22	lancepantz	i can get a repl task, but it just exits after showing the prompt
00:23	tomoj	is there a good reason we can't make protocols which 'extends' interfaces?
00:23	tomoj	maybe that doesn't make any sense
00:25	tomoj	I was thinking I wanted implementers of my protocol to be required to implement Seqable
00:48	defn	http://uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=45255
00:48	defn	woops
01:37	_brian2_	noob question > trying to use contrib string utils, this doesn't work -> (require '[clojure.contrib.string :as s]) , java.io.FileNotFoundException
02:20	defn	noob mistake: leaving the channel before you get an answer
03:27	defn	i have a serialized structure that i want to allow people to query with JSON or something -- id like to create an API i suppose
06:24	bsteuber	I've got a weird issue while trying a non-ELPA swank setup
06:24	bsteuber	everything works without errors in
06:24	bsteuber	*inferior-lisp
06:24	bsteuber	*
06:24	bsteuber	argh
06:24	bsteuber	but still, I don't get a slime-REPL buffer
06:24	bsteuber	any ideas?
06:59	kensanata	Hi all. I'm a Clojure & Swing newbie and I have trouble writing a MouseListener for my app. Its mouseClicked method appears to not get called. What's wrong with my (proxy [JFrame MouseListener] (mouseClicked [e] (println e)))? My 37 line app is here: http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/2010-06-05_Clojure_Mouse_Listener
07:05	Chousuke	are you using slime or something?
07:05	Chousuke	the output might go to the inferior-lisp buffer
07:06	Chousuke	but hm, shouldn't you normally do listeners by using the .addListener method for frames etc?
07:06	_mst	kensanata: I think the only thing you're missing is that your MouseListener won't do anything until you register it with the jframe
07:06	Licenser	kensanata: for me it sounds odd to proxy a frame and a listener in one thing
07:06	_mst	yep, that :)
07:07	Licenser	<advertisement>look at clj-swing for how do do swing & clojure it has grown quite a bit now :) </advertisement note="It is open source so don't worry">
07:08	kensanata	Hehe
07:08	Licenser	kensanata: you might actually enjoy clj-swing a lot :) I gladly support you with it to when I'm around since having someone use the library is the best way to get the edges off it
07:09	Chousuke	Licenser: don't attributes go into the opening tag? :P
07:09	Licenser	Chousuke: that is XML 2.0 :P
07:09	kensanata	Ok, I'll try using addListener. I got the idea from http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html#DesktopApps where they use an ActionListener.
07:09	_mst	reverse polish xml ;)
07:10	Licenser	also since when do I care for well working XML, I hate it just the same, next time I'll use clojure syntax [:advertisement {:note "It's open sourece"} "..."]
07:10	kensanata	Licenser: I'll take a look at clj-swing once I have the very basics. :)
07:11	Licenser	kensanata: cool just drop me a query here my PC is usually on even if I'm not and I'll get back to you. Also if you got some stuff done I'll gladly look over your stuff and see how to best encoperate it with clj-swing (since it is by far not done)
07:12	kensanata	Licenser: Hehe, just read your README on github. I had to get rid of Stuart Sierra's macro because it didn't work for what I needed and I didn't know how to adapt it.
07:12	Licenser	kensanata: well it was just a base, mine can do a bit more by now :P
07:29	nirly	how can I write a string as unicode data into a file?
07:33	Chousuke	I'm not sure what you mean with "unicode data", but http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/FileWriter.html should help
07:35	Chousuke	It seems you'll need to use an OutputStreamWriter directly if you want to specify the encoding though.
07:36	kensanata	Thank you to all that suggested the addFooListener. It turned out that I needed a MouseListener because addActionListener did not exist; and it turned out that I needed to implement the entire interface, ie. (proxy [MouseListener] [] (mouseClicked [e] (edit-grid e)) (mouseEntered [e]) (mouseExited [e]) (mousePressed [e]) (mouseReleased [e])) -- but now it works. :)
07:50	raek	strings in java (and thus in clojure) are sequences of unicode characters (not bytes)
07:51	raek	OutputStream and InputStream are abstract classes for writing and reading streams of bytes
07:51	raek	OutputStreamWriter and InputStreamWriter are abstract classes for writing and reading streams of characters
07:52	raek	when you open a file, you get a FileOutputStream
07:53	raek	(correction: *Writer are not abstract classes)
07:54	raek	the constructor of OutputStreamWriter takes an OutputStream and the name of the character encoding (character to byte mapping)
07:55	raek	if you want to be able to encode all unicode characters, you'll need to use an encoding in the UTF family
07:56	raek	UTF-8 is convenient, since it's backwards compatible with ASCII (that is, all bytes with a zero in the 8th bit are ASCII)
07:57	raek	ISO 8859-1 is less good, because it can only code the first 256 characters, unlike UTF-8 which can code more than 100000 characters
07:59	raek	hope this was useful... :)
08:01	Lajla	,(car ''x)
08:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: car in this context
08:02	Lajla	,(car (list 1 2 3))
08:02	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: car in this context
08:02	Lajla	So, if I get this straight, clojure has no car and cdr?
08:02	Lajla	Ohhh, first.
08:02	Lajla	,(first ''x)
08:02	clojurebot	quote
08:02	Lajla	Yeah
08:03	raek	:)
08:03	Lajla	WAs just checkin', bro.
08:03	Lajla	I think first, second, third et cetera are ugly names for car, cadr et cetera.
08:04	Lajla	I personally use ((string->accessor "caddddddddr") lst)
08:05	nirly	thanks raek, Chousuke
08:06	raek	(first (drop 8 lst))
08:06	raek	pretty readable too, IMHO
08:07	Chousuke	"ugly" :P
08:07	Chousuke	at least they're descriptive
08:07	raek	or simply (nth lst 7)
08:09	raek	s/7/8/
08:09	sexpbot	or simply (nth lst 8)
08:16	Lajla	Chousuke, I think caaddaadr like combinations are much more descriptive.
08:16	Lajla	At least, don't know about clojure, but in most lisps, 'fourth' is really just a composition of car, cdr, cdr, cdr.
08:16	Lajla	Ehh + cdr.
08:16	Licenser	yea but what if you don#t have a drivers licens and can't use car?
08:17	Lajla	And applying fourth to a three element list will result into a cdr-based error.
08:17	Chousuke	Lajla: I can
08:17	Lajla	Also, what if you apply cadddr to a binary tree that is not a list, but an even branched tree?
08:17	Chousuke	Lajla: I can't even read that
08:18	Chousuke	Lajla: the combinations of cdr and car are not descriptive in the least unless you've actually learned to read them
08:18	Lajla	Names like 'fourth' are only 'descriptive' for one of the most common conceptual uses of using car and cdr.
08:18	Licenser	I think it is good that clojure uses first, next, rest pposite to c[ad]+r
08:18	Lajla	Chousuke, well, they describe transparently the operation you perform.
08:18	Chousuke	whenever I see something like that I need to think what it means.
08:18	Licenser	Lajla: on lists yes on vectors no
08:19	Chousuke	whereas first and second are immediately obvious
08:19	raek	mustn't the cdr part of a cons be a sequence in clojure?
08:19	Licenser	nth too
08:19	raek	,(cons :a :b)
08:19	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
08:19	Lajla	Chousuke, well, maybe you think too much in 'ists' and not enough in 'right branching pairs that end on ()'
08:19	Chousuke	I don't understand that at all.
08:19	Chousuke	how does the structure of the list matter?
08:19	Chousuke	it's still a lsit
08:19	Chousuke	list
08:20	Lajla	Chousuke, well, lists are ad hoc in lisp.
08:20	Lajla	THey aren't primitives.
08:20	Lajla	THey're constructed from pairs and ().
08:20	Chousuke	yes, but they're still lists.
08:20	Lajla	Chousuke, they're lists the same way a struct in C that can be used to model a date is a 'date'.
08:20	Lajla	It's ad hoc.
08:20	Chousuke	the cdr/car thing is a vestigial leftover from the early days
08:21	Lajla	Well, first and second would work just as well.
08:21	Chousuke	it makes no sense unless you're actually already used to it.
08:21	Lajla	But car and cdr can be easily composed unto each other in a simple readable form.
08:21	raek	(get-in [[[:a :b] [:c :d]] [[:e :f] [:g :h]]] [0 1 0])
08:21	raek	,(get-in [[[:a :b] [:c :d]] [[:e :f] [:g :h]]] [0 1 0])
08:21	clojurebot	:c
08:21	Licenser	Lajla: I don't agree, caaddaadr is not readable :P
08:21	Lajla	Well, it makes sense if you see lists for what they are, pairs composed unto each other.
08:21	Chousuke	that's the thing, I don't consider them readable at all :P
08:21	Lajla	All you then need to know is that car revers to the first element in a pair, and cdr to the second.
08:22	Lajla	Chousuke, well, I guess you see a list as 'an ordered collection of data' uppose to 'a nesting of pairs'
08:22	Licenser	caaddaadr looks like a klingon war cry to me
08:22	hoeck	Lajla: note that there is ffirst and fnext too in clojure )
08:22	Licenser	Lajla: but aren't lists (at least in clojure) ordered collections of data?
08:22	Lajla	It looks like 'get the first of the first of the second of the second of the first of the first of the second element of a pair' for me.
08:23	Lajla	licenser, I think clojure does not implement lists as lisps traditionally do no, targeting the JVM and all.
08:23	Lajla	Traditionally in lisp, lists were just 'a binary tree'
08:23	Lajla	The one restriction is that the rightmost leave is '().
08:23	Licenser	Lajla: point is, while I can imagine caaddaadr is quite effective for a versatile lisp programmer, forst, second, nth and friends make it easyer for the rest of the world
08:24	Licenser	what I like in clojure is that it lowers the entry level to a lisp dialect to a place where it is acutally woth to get used to all the oddness of prefix notation and lists
08:24	Lajla	(((a . b) . 3) . ( a . ( ( x . y) . (2 . () ) ) ) is a list.
08:24	Lajla	licenser, well I guess clojure puts more emphasis on the functional programming that scheme brought to lisp.
08:25	Lajla	while the defining feature of most lisps is still the interchangeability of code and data.
08:25	Lajla	And that your program IS such a binary tree.
08:25	Licenser	as far as I understood that works great in clojure too
08:25	Chousuke	I've rarely had a need for anything more complex than a caddr maybe
08:25	Licenser	you're justnot forced to write caaddaadr
08:26	Lajla	Well, I sometimes see myself using ((string->accessor "caaddaadr") ... ) in liue of ((compose car car cdr cdr car car cdr) ... ) because it's shorted.
08:26	Lajla	But I guess in clojure, one doesn't use homo-iconicity that much.
08:26	Chousuke	huh?
08:26	Lajla	The fact that source code is not static, but dynamic.
08:26	Chousuke	it's used all the time :P
08:27	Lajla	Chousuke, how?
08:27	Chousuke	um, in every macro?
08:27	Licenser	Lajla: you can easiely write a function that is shorter then string->accessor
08:27	Lajla	In homo-iconicity, you'll find yourself dissassembling and assembling your source code a lot with car and cdr.
08:27	Chousuke	nah
08:27	Lajla	licenser what do you eman?
08:27	Lajla	Chousuke, also, macros are static, not dynamic.
08:27	Licenser	Lajla: if you want string->accessor
08:28	Licenser	you can write it yourself
08:28	Lajla	They are performed at compile time.
08:28	Lajla	licenser, that function have written myself.
08:28	Licenser	ah
08:28	Licenser	Lajla: you can use a macro too
08:28	Lajla	It takes a string of the form c[ad]+r and produces an accessor.
08:29	Licenser	nods as saied you can do that in clojure too ;)
08:29	Licenser	just replace car with first and cdr with second
08:29	Chousuke	Lajla: when do you actually modify code at runtime in lisp?
08:30	Lajla	licenser, ah, there you're wrong.
08:30	Lajla	second is cadr.
08:30	Chousuke	Lajla: that's very rare
08:30	Licenser	ah well what is cdr then?
08:30	Lajla	Chousuke, no, that's lisp.
08:30	Lajla	licenser, cdr applies on pairs.
08:30	Chousuke	I have to disagree
08:30	Chousuke	I've never seen it
08:30	Lajla	It's rest, when done on lists, though.
08:30	Lajla	Chousuke, what do you think CLOS does all the time?
08:31	Lajla	It changes the state of objects by manipulating their code.
08:31	Licenser	well Lajla I still think yo can do the same in clojure I just don't understand what you do :P
08:31	Lajla	licenser, well a pair is not a list of two elements.
08:31	Lajla	A list of two elements is a pair (a . (b . () )
08:32	Lajla	A list (a b c d) is (a . (b . (c . (d . () ) ) ) ), you know that, right?
08:32	Lajla	Car accesses the first element of a pair, cdr the second, not of a list.
08:32	Licenser	yes I can imagine that
08:32	Licenser	ah so cdr is rest (next) and car is first?
08:33	Lajla	Which of course means that cdr also accesses the conceptual 'rest' of a list. The main differences is that car and cdr are mainly operations on pairs, not on lists, lists are just composed of pairs.
08:33	Lajla	licenser, yeah, that's the general idea.
08:33	Chousuke	Lajla: I don't think mutating code is what makes lisp what it is. :P
08:34	Chousuke	Lajla: a CLOS-like system would be possible to create with immutable data as well
08:34	Lajla	Except that car and cdr are shorter, and cadadr like compositions can't easily be made from 'first' and 'rest' that are also that easy to read.
08:34	Lajla	Chousuke, well, why hasn't it then?
08:34	Lajla	CLOS is easily the most powerful object system around.
08:34	Chousuke	Lajla: because no-one actually wants objects :P
08:34	Lajla	Chousuke, you think it's a coincidence that lisps object system is that powerful?
08:35	Chousuke	they're all about encapsulating mutable state and that's not very clojurey
08:35	Lajla	Lisp was the first, and still the only significant homo-iconic language, and an instigator for many things that found their way into other languages that just follow from lisps homo-iconicity.
08:35	Licenser	so (map #(get {\a first \d next} %) (second (re-find #"^c([da]+)r" string-stuff))) something like that?
08:35	Chousuke	Bu Clojure is homoiconic too, being a lisp :/
08:35	Lajla	Chousuke, yap, I can imagine that. But that's also while clojure is not that homo-iconic, your program is data and can manipulate itself.
08:36	Lajla	Chousuke, sure, but it favours a more functional style.
08:36	Lajla	Though, a limited form of homo-iconicity is the apply operator of course.
08:36	Lajla	but, how would you define the factorial function?
08:36	Chousuke	see, that's what I don't get. How is homoiconicity in clojure "limited" in any way?
08:37	Lajla	Chousuke, I never said it was.
08:37	Lajla	I mean, it's all possible, I'm just saying it was more designed towards a functional style.
08:37	Chousuke	That's true.
08:37	Chousuke	I guess I don't see what your point is, anymore :P
08:38	Lajla	Chousuke, but would you define the factorial the typical way with if or would you use (apply * (cons 1 (range 2 n)))
08:38	Chousuke	either would work? :/
08:38	Lajla	Chousuke, sure, but that one is charactaristically lisp like, and a lot more performance efficient.
08:47	Borkdude	Is there something like this already in core/contrib? (defn update-map [m f & args]
08:47	Borkdude	(reduce #(apply update-in %1 (vector %2) f args) m (keys m)))
08:47	Borkdude	so you can do: (update-map {:a 1 :b 2} inc) => {:a 2 :b 3} ?
08:49	Borkdude	or: (update-map {:a 1 :b 2} + 2), {:a 3, :b 4}
08:50	Borkdude	or is this how you would use zipmap?
08:50	Licenser	hmm Borkdude I have a function that I think would allow that
08:51	Licenser	http://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox/blob/master/src/net/licenser/sandbox.clj#L14 look at that perhaps it helps you
08:51	Borkdude	(zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m))) would also work maybe
08:53	Borkdude	Licenser: tnx
08:54	Licenser	but it might not be what you want but it might help ;)
08:54	Borkdude	Licenser: can you give an example of how you would use it on a simple map?
08:55	Licenser	hmm http://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox/blob/master/src/net/licenser/sandbox.clj#L103
08:55	Licenser	it replaces . in code with dot
08:57	Licenser	do you want this to be nested?
08:58	Borkdude	Licenser: actually what I was simply searching for was a map that worked on map values
08:58	Borkdude	non-recursive
08:59	Licenser	ah okay then just use map?
08:59	Borkdude	Licenser: you mean with zipmap?
08:59	Licenser	no map map
08:59	Licenser	or reduce, even easier
09:01	Licenser	(defn hash-map-map [f m] (reduce (fn [r [k v]] (assoc r k (f v))) {} m))
09:02	Licenser	do you want it map like or update like?
09:03	Licenser	because map won't take + 2
09:03	Borkdude	Licenser: that hashmap-map looks fine
09:03	Borkdude	and I could improve it to take some args
09:04	Licenser	(update-map {\a 1 \b 2 \c 3 \d 4} + 2) works with (defn update-map [m f & args] (reduce (fn [r [k v]] (assoc r k (apply f v args))) {} m))
09:05	kotarak	(zipmap (keys m) (map #(apply f %1 args) (vals m)))
09:05	Borkdude	Licenser: that's ok enough. now let me check how that destructuring works
09:06	Licenser	^^
09:07	Borkdude	kotarak: I also thought of that one, maybe it also would be more efficient?
09:08	kotarak	Borkdude: dunno
09:09	kotarak	I would expect reduce to be faster due to InternalReduce. But maybe zipmap works similar internally? ...
09:12	Borkdude	,(letfn [f [x [y z]] (+ x y z)] (f 1 [2 3]))
09:12	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
09:14	Borkdude	,(letfn [(f [x [y z]] (+ x y z))] (f 1 [2 3]))
09:14	clojurebot	6
09:15	Borkdude	wouldn't it be an idea to leave outer parens out... it seems like overkill to me ;)
09:15	kotarak	Where? in letfn?
09:17	candera	Perhaps the issue is how one would bind more than one function at a time.
09:18	Borkdude	candera: it's triples, name args and body
09:18	candera	Body can be more than one expression, yes?
09:19	Borkdude	hmhm.. makes sense
09:19	candera	I mean, I'm with you: I thought the extra grouping looks weird. But Rich is smarter than I am. :)
10:16	lypanov	any interest in riak from clojure community?
10:17	lypanov	or translation: anyone know of any libraries?
10:21	Borkdude	Does dotrace support recursive functions
10:23	Borkdude	Or maybe Clojure 1.2 does some secret optimization with recursion?
10:25	Borkdude	This only shows one call of my function: http://gist.github.com/426665
10:27	Borkdude	gtg... maybe later
11:30	arkh	anyone know off the top of their head how to take from a lazy sequence until you read nil ?
11:33	shoover	arkh: check out take-while. you can pass identity as the pred
11:34	arkh	shoover: excellent, thank you
12:35	replaca	lypanov: I know the sonian guys (like technomancy and tim dysinger) are using Riak extensively
12:37	lypanov	replaca: ah, awesome. will ping them to see what they're using whenever i get the time to transition to clojure.
12:37	lypanov	(
12:37	lypanov	(stuck on ruby)
13:24	secleinteer	hi, are there any arch linux users here? i've been trying to set up clojure on arch, and i'm having issues with both the 'clojure' and 'clojure-git' PKGBUILDs in the AUR
13:24	secleinteer	i asked in #archlinux, but no one could help
13:32	Jevgeni	hi, is it possible not to print namespaces when using macroexpand?
13:33	bsteuber	Jevgeni: namespaces are already there after reading in the code
13:34	bsteuber	so the answer is: only by walking the code yourself
13:34	Jevgeni	bsteuber: what do you mean by walking the code myself?
13:36	bsteuber	(maybe the statement with read is wrong, though)
13:36	bsteuber	well
13:36	bsteuber	you could iterate over the code yourself and just read the name of each symbol
13:36	bsteuber	,`defn
13:36	clojurebot	clojure.core/defn
13:37	bsteuber	,(name `defn)
13:37	clojurebot	"defn"
13:37	Jevgeni	ok, just stripping the part after /
13:37	Jevgeni	ahha, I see, thanks
13:42	stuarthalloway	,`~'defn
13:42	clojurebot	defn
14:32	secleinteer	hi, can anyone help me out, i can't get clojure to work
14:32	secleinteer	i'm getting "Could not find the main class: clojure.main. Program will exit." on a hello world
14:33	hamza	probably clojure.jar is not on your classpath
14:33	jdmmmmm	How are you attempting to invoke clojure? Could you paste the script in a pastie?
14:34	secleinteer	jdmmmmm: i'm running arch linux. i'm using the 'clojure' PKGBUILD from AUR. when i manually downloaded and installed clojure, it worked fine
14:34	secleinteer	i'll pastebin the bash script
14:35	secleinteer	nvm, it's available from the AUR: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clojure/clojure/clj
14:36	jdmmmmm	Does this mean the problem is gone or that you don't need a pastebin?
14:38	jdmmmmm	One idea is to just run the following and see if those env variables get set up properly: source /etc/profile
14:40	secleinteer	jdmmmmm: source /etc/profile did it, thanks a lot!
14:40	jdmmmmm	secleinteer: np
14:44	bartj	I am quite a code-style zealot but, I am finding following the Lisp code style mentioned here (http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt) extremely unclear
14:44	bartj	any pointers?
14:45	secleinteer	jdmmmmm: should i add "source /etc/profile" to ~/.bashrc to have it always run?
14:48	secleinteer	bartj: "Rationale: The parentheses grow lonely if their closing brackets are all kept separated and segregated." <-- are you sure this is supposed to be taken seriously :/
14:49	jdmmmmm	secleinteer: No, whenever you start a shell "source /etc/profile" will be implicitly run. Wwhen files are added/modified in /etc/profile.d/, (which is what I assume happens in arch linux) you'll may to run that on currently open shell windows. A newly opened shell window should work fine.
14:49	secleinteer	jdmmmmm: it didn't work for me, that was the problem
14:49	secleinteer	i had to explicitly add 'source /etc/profile' to .bashrc
14:49	secleinteer	the files are indeed in /etc/profile.d/
14:51	jdmmmmm	secleinteer: Maybe you need to log out and log back in? If that doesn't do the trick, then I think your linux config is broken.
14:51	secleinteer	jdmmmmm: i logged out and in already as well
14:52	secleinteer	it must be something to do with my config files
14:52	secleinteer	i just created a new user and it works fine under that user
14:53	jdmmmmm	secleinteer: I would post something on the arch linux forums explaining the problem. That behavior is counter to other distros I've worked with. That said, I've never used arch.
14:53	secleinteer	ok
14:53	bartj	secleinteer: I thought that was to be taken with a huge pinch of salt? :)
14:53	secleinteer	bartj: haha ok
14:54	jdmmmmm	secleinteer: I think this may explain the problem: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=64364
14:56	secleinteer	jdmmmmm: ok, thanks for the link
14:57	secleinteer	i've distrohopped a lot, and never cleaned out my config files, so there's probably a lot of crap built up
14:57	bartj	can anyone help me with indenting code on emacs (a complete emacs n00b here)
14:58	bartj	from the above link: Run `C-M-q'(indent-sexp) on any code to ensure that it is indented correctly
14:58	bartj	I mean Clojure code of course
14:59	bartj	when I press Control and Alt and q character as mentioned above,
14:59	bartj	I get C-M-q is undefined
14:59	bartj	what gives?
14:59	jdmmmmm	bartj: I use indent-region: C-M-\
15:00	jdmmmmm	First, you can mark-whole-buffer: C-x h
15:01	jdmmmmm	Then, intent-region and everything in the buffer is indented.
15:04	bartj	jdmmmmm: when I do C-x h , I get a mark set ->possibly indicating that the buffer start position is recorded
15:04	bartj	how do I indicate that the buffer end position?
15:04	bartj	go to the close bracket and indicate it? if yes, how?
15:05	jdmmmmm	Do you have transient-mark-mode on? If you did you would see the whole buffer is "highlighted"
15:07	bartj	not sure...how to do I have it on?
15:08	jdmmmmm	Let's move to a private chat if possible. It's beyond the scope of clojure.
15:09	hsjunnesson	I have a hierarchical collection of java objects I want to turn into a map. Some of these java objects responds to .getChildren. I then want to extract a few values on each node in the tree such as the class of the object.
15:10	hsjunnesson	Can someone point me in the right direction here, I was looking at zippers, and I can create a zipper which maps to the java hierarchy fine but I don't really get how to recursively construct a new map from that.
15:22	lpetit	stuarthalloway: hello, do you know whether the second patch of cgrand in issue #358 has been applied to master ? I think not, but I may have overlooked my clojure commits inbo
15:22	lpetit	x
15:23	stuarthalloway	waiting Rich's review, should be applied by Monday
15:23	lpetit	stuarthalloway: ok, great thanks !
15:43	neoashaman	Hi, I'm trying to learn clojure - but am having some trouble with leiningen. Given the minimal project.clj (that only introduces dependencies on clojure and clojure-contrib) I get a huge backtrace when trying to do 'lein deps'
15:43	neoashaman	See: http://gist.github.com/426936
15:44	neoashaman	Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
15:46	Raynes	That's weird.
15:47	neoashaman	Indeed
15:48	Raynes	Looks like it can't find the 1.1.0 jar.
15:49	neoashaman	Yep, but the repo it says it's looking in (http://build.clojure.org/releases) appears to contain it, which is why I'm confused
15:49	neoashaman	I've tried both the leiningen I can get from 'macports' and the standalone script, with the same results
17:05	cschreiner	neoashaman: sudo?
17:18	hiredman	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Towards-a-Universal-VM <-- "just do waht rich says"
17:59	arkh	that's a cool video - is there anywhere Rich's JVM thoughts/wishes have been recorded?
18:01	arkh	one thing I've heard him say is he doesn't want them to change a thing (in the JVM) because "everything works" right now, but I'm sure there'd be some things to take advantage of with tail call optimization, other invokedynamic stuff, etc.
18:02	arkh	(Rich's statement about a desire for no change being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, then)
18:08	dsantiago	Here's an ancient email where he says Clojure will implement TCO when the JVM has it. http://osdir.com/ml/java.clojure.user/2008-08/msg00225.html
18:17	arkh	the choice quote hiredman pointed out re: Rich in the above url is at 00:43:00 (43 minutes) into the video ;-)
18:21	arkh	dsantiago: thanks
18:21	dsantiago	Sure.
18:21	dsantiago	Who knows if that's changed or anything.
18:21	dsantiago	The guy in that video says at one point that tail calls will probably make it into the JVM.
18:24	arkh	yeah, pretty cool. In fact, the whole idea of having the JVM truly accommodate non-Java languages (not just superficially) and the mechanics involved is a world I didn't know about before
18:28	hiredman	he's mentioned fixnums a few times
18:29	hiredman	a lot of benchmarks are numeric in nature, so most dynamic languages on the jvm would do better on benchmarks if they had fixnums
18:31	arkh	nice (fixnum) [ http://bit.ly/d62Lfl ]
18:33	hiredman	http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/fixnums_in_the_vm
18:39	arkh	if a cpu runs 64-bit, is it still important for "headerless objects" to fit in a single machine word of 32bits?
18:39	arkh	sorry, nvm. The article gets to that ...
18:52	arkh	hiredman: thanks! great article
19:08	Lajla	TWEY
19:08	Twey	o/
19:08	Lajla	TAAS, TAAS, TAAS OLET MUN MAAILMASESSA.
19:09	Lajla	Sulla on vain haskel, lisp on minun, itse on minun.
19:10	Twey	No, I claim them all.
19:10	Twey	:)
19:11	Lajla	Twey, to be honest, I'm less enthusiastic about closure than I originally was.
19:12	Lajla	A lot of things are strange to me in the end, such as that (set "abcde
19:12	Lajla	")
19:12	Lajla	returns a set of five characters.
19:12	tetron	makes sense to me ;-)
19:12	Lajla	Also, licenser here actually didn't know what the difference between second and cdr was. =(
19:13	Lajla	They think in 'lists' here, not in 'binary trees of cons cells'.
19:16	tetron	I haven't gotten very far with clojure, but one key realization I had was that it isn't a intended to be a pure language, it is a pragmatic language, which means among other things you tend to use the java standard librray a lot for bread-and-butter operatinons like string manipulation
19:17	_brian2_	Hi, I'm trying to use print-dup to write a lazy sequence of clojure types (clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap) , but seems to fail http://www.clojure.pastebin.com/YgM9xVfr
19:19	_brian2_	Lajla : could you explain t a beginner why that makes a difference?
19:20	Lajla	_brian2_, well, (second x) is identical to (car (cdr x))
19:20	Lajla	That's all.
19:20	Lajla	cdr accesses the second item of a pair.
19:20	Lajla	A pair is different from a list of two elements.
19:20	Lajla	A list (a b) is (a . (b . ()))
19:22	_brian2_	I take it thats more how lisp people think?
19:22	Lajla	_brian2_, I thought so, until today.
19:22	Lajla	_brian2_, clojure seems to treat a list a 'just an ordered colletion of elements'
19:23	Lajla	I personally use things like cadadr, short for (car (cdr (car (cdr ...
19:23	Lajla	THey use second, or third.
19:23	Lajla	I realize today that they think in reverse, they think 'I have to get the fourth element of the list, hmm, let's think, that would be the car of the cdr of the cdr of the cdr'
19:24	Lajla	I'm more 'I have to get the car of the cdr of the cdr of the cdr of the pair, hmm, that would be uuhhmm, the fourth element of the list.'
19:24	tetron	well, clojure treats lists as a particular type of sequence, most things operate on sequences instead of lists
19:24	raek	the sequence library, which is a big part of clojure, assumes car=first and cdr=rest
19:25	raek	of what I have seen, the binary tree usage is simply not very common
19:25	raek	in clojure, that is
19:25	hoeck	,(nnext [1 2 3])
19:25	clojurebot	(3)
19:25	Lajla	raek, yap, but in Scheme it is.
19:25	Lajla	I find myself using (cddaar x) a lot.
19:26	Lajla	So deep does it go at times that I've written a string->accessor function so that I can (string->accessor "cddaadddaaddadadaar") to get
19:26	Lajla	the right composition
19:26	Raynes	I think cdr is 'next', not rest.
19:26	Raynes	I think that's what The Joy of Clojure told me, anyway.
19:27	raek	hrm, yes. that's probably more accurate.
19:28	raek	in clojure, there's more data structures to choose from
19:28	tetron	Lajla: using constructions like (cddaadddaaddadadaar x) seems unmaintainable
19:28	Lajla	raek, quite true, so to adress all this, naturally, I'm designing my own langauge.
19:28	raek	so one could use vectors of size 2 as pairs
19:28	Lajla	tetron, well, that one is extremely deep.
19:28	Lajla	But readable.
19:28	Lajla	Just pay attention to the d's and the a's.
19:28	Lajla	a is first, d is second.
19:28	tetron	also clojure has destructuring which is relatively clearer
19:29	Lajla	of pairs, that is.
19:29	ceptorial	is anyone using viper mode with emacs? i have (setq viper-mode t) in my init.el but anytime i start the repl or do debugging it switches back to emacs mode. does anyone know how to permanently turn on viper mode across all buffers?
19:29	Lajla	raek, well, the idea is that lisp syntax itself is made up of pairs and '()
19:29	_brian2_	Any congomongo users out there who can tell me how to save a collection to a file and read into a clojure program?
19:30	hiredman	clojure doesn't have (exposed) pairs
19:30	hiredman	e.g. cons doesn't return a pair
19:30	Lajla	hiredman, well, I guess.
19:30	Lajla	same in haskell.
19:31	Lajla	This is one of the reasons I decided not to switch to clojure, despite it being promising at first.
19:31	Lajla	But encorporate the good parts into my own design.
19:31	hiredman	Lajla: so why are you here?
19:31	Lajla	hiredman, well A: helping people. B: checking if twey didn't follow me. C: off topic. D: talking finnish. E: autojoin, actually, it was THAT promising.
19:32	Lajla	hiredman, I have actually amassed some clojure knowledge while I tried to learn it.
19:32	hiredman	helping people?
19:33	Twey	Lajla: cdr is called ‘rest’
19:33	Lajla	hiredman, sure, when people join and ask some things that even I know.
19:33	Lajla	Twey, next actually.
19:33	hiredman	all I see is evidence of D
19:33	_brian2_	hiredman : I think it might be good to have people with different points of view
19:33	Lajla	But there are no pairs, they only work on lists.
19:33	hiredman	it's fine, it's just annoying to have someone going on and on about caddadaddaadr
19:34	Twey	Lajla: What's the difference between ‘rest’ and ‘next’, then?
19:34	Lajla	hiredman, well, I did already explain the difference between cdr and second to some-one, that's a real pitfall to people trying to work with linked lists, many don't realize at first that a pair is different from a list of two elements.
19:34	Twey	Lack of car/cdr creeps me out a bit, too :þ
19:34	Lajla	Twey, that rest doesn't exist, I think.
19:34	Lajla	Or let me see
19:34	hiredman	,(doc rest)
19:34	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a possibly empty seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument."
19:34	Lajla	,(rest '( 1 2 3))
19:34	clojurebot	(2 3)
19:34	Lajla	Ahh, okay, alias.
19:34	Twey	Ooh, bot.
19:34	Lajla	I learnt it with next
19:34	hiredman	no
19:34	Lajla	Yeah, but.
19:34	Twey	,(doc next)
19:34	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil."
19:34	tetron	,(doc next)
19:34	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil."
19:34	hiredman	next is not the same as rest
19:34	Twey	Somewhat different
19:34	Lajla	Yeah, I see.
19:35	Lajla	next is truly cdr, except that pairs don't exist.
19:35	Twey	,(next '(1))
19:35	clojurebot	nil
19:35	Twey	,(rest '(1))
19:35	clojurebot	()
19:35	Lajla	Or ehh
19:35	Lajla	rest is cdr.
19:35	Twey	They can both be said to be cdr
19:35	raek	I think the motivation for rest/next is lazy sequences
19:35	Lajla	nil is different from ()
19:35	Twey	Because () isn't nil, yeah
19:35	Lajla	Twey, nil is null.
19:35	Lajla	void
19:35	Lajla	A thing I took over to my own design, I like it.
19:36	hiredman	before rich made seqs lazier than they used to be, there used to be no such thing as an empty seq
19:36	raek	rest yields something that might not have decided if it's gonna be nil or not
19:36	hiredman	there were seqs with things in them, and there was nil
19:36	raek	calling seq on it forces it to make up its mind
19:37	raek	(next sequence) is equal to (seq (rest sequence))
19:38	Twey	,(seq (rest '(1)))
19:38	clojurebot	nil
19:38	Twey	Interesting
19:38	Twey	So you consider () to be a sort of future?
19:38	hiredman	no
19:38	hiredman	but it might not be
19:39	hiredman	if you have X and X is a lazyseq
19:39	raek	first and rest operate on various implementations
19:39	raek	conses is one of them
19:40	hiredman	,(cons 1 2) ;in, say, scheme, this would return (1 . 2)
19:40	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
19:40	tetron	well there is a difference between () [] {} and nil, which isn't the case in classic lisp since you only have () as a first class type
19:40	Twey	Hmmm
19:40	Twey	Lajla:
19:40	hiredman	tetron: classic lisp?
19:40	Twey	,(cons 1 (cons 2 nil))
19:40	clojurebot	(1 2)
19:41	raek	,(lazy-seq (if (zero? (rand-int 2)) nil (list :foo)))
19:41	tetron	I'm thinking common lisp
19:41	clojurebot	(:foo)
19:41	raek	(lazy-seq (if (zero? (rand-int 2)) nil (list :foo)))
19:41	raek	,(lazy-seq (if (zero? (rand-int 2)) nil (list :foo)))
19:41	clojurebot	(:foo)
19:41	hiredman	tetron: lisp has been a plurality for a long time, and many lisps treat these things differently
19:42	hiredman	infact it was a huge debate in the process of standardizing cl
19:42	Lajla	Twey, this is what I also think is annoying about haskell,t hat cons only works on lists.
19:42	tetron	hiredman: fair enough :-) my experience is limited to common lisp, elisp and a bit of scheme
19:42	Lajla	I don't like 'restrictions'.
19:42	Twey	Lajla: That's… not really an accurate description
19:43	hiredman	Twey: that works because in many cases nil is still treated as a empty seq
19:43	Twey	,(cons 1 (cons 2 ()))
19:43	clojurebot	(1 2)
19:43	Twey	hiredman: I see
19:43	hiredman	,(into nil '(1 2 3))
19:43	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
19:43	Twey	Lajla: Consing doesn't only work on lists. Consing is lists.
19:43	hiredman	,(into #{} '(1 2 3))
19:43	clojurebot	#{1 2 3}
19:43	Lajla	Twey, explain?
19:43	Twey	(and it wouldn't make sense to have it work on anything else)
19:43	Twey	Lajla: Well, maybe in #haskell
19:43	Lajla	Twey, that's the point
19:44	Lajla	'makes no sense'.
19:44	Lajla	I want to make up my own sense.
19:44	hiredman	in haskell I believe the implementation of cons is the way it is because of the type system
19:44	Lajla	Where people see 'addition', I see a shifting of bits, it's all about interpretation.
19:45	hiredman	the type of cons cells says they have two slots, a slot that holds a thing of a type X and a thing of a type List (or cons cell)
19:45	hiredman	so the only thing you can cons onto is a list/cons cell
19:45	Twey	Lajla: It's all about specification. ;)
19:46	Twey	hiredman: It's not really to do with typing… more to do with data-types.
19:46	Lajla	Twey, I disagree, a processor stores natural numbers and has some operations on them, that's it.
19:46	hiredman	Twey: I don't know much haskell, but from what I have seen I would say there is no real difference
19:46	hiredman	datatypes are constructed from types
19:47	Lajla	However, you can also interpreted 2^32 - 1 as -1, if ytou like.
19:47	Twey	Lajla: Sure, but if you're limiting yourself to the capabilities of the processor, you're missing out and should go back to ‘coding’ by bashing wires together. :þ
19:48	Lajla	Twey, I'm talking about C style langauges right now.
19:48	dnolen	(cons 'a {:foo 'bar})
19:48	Lajla	C is ugly, C-- is awesome.
19:48	dnolen	,(cons 'a {:foo 'bar})
19:48	clojurebot	(a [:foo bar])
19:48	hiredman	,(cons 'a (seq {:foo :bar}))
19:48	clojurebot	(a [:foo :bar])
19:48	hiredman	,(seq {:foo :bar})
19:48	clojurebot	([:foo :bar])
19:50	Raynes	Lajla: Clojure isn't Common Lisp or Scheme, and I don't think it's necessary to assume that all Clojure programmers are also Scheme or Common Lisp programmers, and would know the difference between cdr, cre, cklgnerjergi or whatever other cryptic names those languages use.
19:50	Raynes	In Licenser's defense, that is.
19:50	Raynes	The only reason I know the difference is because I worked on a toy Lisp that programble was writing a while back.
19:51	programble	car and cdr make sense
19:51	programble	btw
19:51	programble	when explained as a linked list
19:51	hiredman	shrug
19:52	Lajla	Raynes, yeah, probably, I stand corrected
19:52	Lajla	Clojures lists are probably not 'linked'
19:52	hiredman	the names are from registers that machines people are using these days don't even have
19:52	hiredman	they are
19:52	hiredman	the nodes just aren't exposed for direct manipulation
19:52	hiredman	lists and seqs are not the same thing
19:52	programble	car is like linkedlistnode->data
19:53	programble	cdr is like linkedlistnode->next
19:53	hiredman	lists just happen to be their own seqs
19:53	Raynes	Car is what I drove home 30 minutes ago.
19:53	rfg	heh
19:53	hiredman	programble: I think everyone is familar with what linked lists are, and the needed operations to traverse them
19:53	programble	Raynes: it means something, an acronym
19:53	Twey	‘My other car is a cdr’
19:53	programble	something register
19:54	hiredman	right
19:54	Twey	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR
19:54	hiredman	it's named after register in a machine no one uses
19:54	hiredman	clojurebot: lisp machine?
19:54	clojurebot	my lisp machine is the jvm
19:54	dnolen	,(first (first {:foo 'bar}))
19:54	clojurebot	:foo
19:54	raek	(defn cons [a d] (fn [f] (f a b)))
19:55	raek	(def car [c] (c (fn [a d] a)))
19:55	raek	(def car [c] (c (fn [a d] d)))
19:55	raek	s/car/cdr/
19:55	sexpbot	(def cdr [c] (c (fn [a d] d)))
19:56	programble	blurgh
19:57	raek	apparently, I cannot type. I'm aware of the typos. :)
19:58	hiredman	~scala {((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
19:58	clojurebot	Any = 1
19:59	dnolen	foldr and foldr considered harmful: http://research.sun.com/projects/plrg/Publications/ICFPAugust2009Steele.pdf, the days of cons are over. hello conc.
19:59	raek	scala, I really should look more into that language soon
19:59	dnolen	foldl and foldr i mean
20:01	hiredman	raek: why?
20:01	raek	ah, I see. this is related to why there is no 'preduce' in clojure
20:01	raek	curiosity, mostly
20:01	chouser	but clojure vectors are trees, not unlike Steele's structures there
20:02	hiredman	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commits/par
20:02	raek	ah, misinterpreted
20:02	chouser	so they could support efficient parallel operations.
20:02	raek	every reduce step is dependent on the previous
20:02	chouser	regular reduce on a seq, yes.
20:03	raek	even though + is associative, reduce cannot assume it
20:03	hiredman	raek: it can, it will just be up to the programmer to make sure they use associative functions
20:04	chouser	hm... subvec gives efficient access to slices of vectors. I wonder if it's overhead is low enough to build parallel ops on top of.
21:01	ceptorial	hey chouser, did you ever have any luck getting jvi to work with the enclojure repl?
21:02	chouser	Yes, but that was ages ago -- a very different version of enclojure.
21:03	ceptorial	i see.. any thoughts on how to get it working today?
21:05	chouser	no, I haven't looked at it recently.
21:06	chouser	let me know if you make any progress on it though.
21:06	ceptorial	alright, thx. did you move to emacs?
21:06	chouser	I need to find some sane way to extend my editor using Clojure.
21:06	chouser	nope, vim for me.
21:08	ceptorial	got it... vimclojure/nailgun?
21:09	chouser	ScreenRepl.vim
21:15	chouser	http://agriffis.n01se.net/skel.hg/index.cgi/file/fe1c0bdb217b/vim/plugin/ScreenRepl.vim
21:17	ceptorial	how does debugging work?
21:20	chouser	printlns and repl experiments are usually quite sufficient. I've tried to use jswat a couple times to step around.
21:23	ceptorial	i've found it more challenging to figure out where to put println's in clojure vs. imperative language..
21:25	dnolen	nice nonblocking telnet chat server in 11 lines of Clojure, http://github.com/texodus/saturnine
21:26	dnolen	ceptorial: you put there pretty much in the same places I find
21:26	dnolen	s/there/them
21:27	hiredman	(doto foo println)
21:27	ceptorial	but does that return foo or nil
21:27	dnolen	,(println (println "foo"))
21:28	clojurebot	foo nil
21:28	hiredman	it returns foo
21:28	hiredman	,(doto :foo println)
21:28	clojurebot	:foo
21:28	clojurebot	:foo
21:28	ceptorial	oh nice
21:28	ceptorial	ok cool
21:28	hiredman	,(doc doto)
21:28	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the from of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put \"a\" 1) (.put \"b\" 2))"
21:28	ceptorial	right
21:28	ceptorial	cool
21:29	dnolen	,(do (println "foo") 5)
21:29	clojurebot	5
21:29	clojurebot	foo
21:29	dnolen	,(do (let [x 5] (println "foo") x))
21:29	clojurebot	5
21:29	clojurebot	foo
21:30	ceptorial	got it
23:53	hiredman	http://www.cufflinks.com/silver-2gb-usb-flash-drive-cufflinks.html
23:53	hiredman	er, mischan