#clojure – 2010-06-04

2010-06-04

00:08	Blackfoot	is there a faster way for developing GUI apps that doesn't involve lein uberjar every change?
00:45	konr	When I need to add methods to a class, there is no other way than using gen-class, right?
00:46	cemerick	Blackfoot: get a decent repl server library, and have your app open a repl port at startup. Then you can start it once, connect with a REPL, and code, load, and repeat iteration after iteration.
00:47	cemerick	I use enclojure and its repl server lib at the moment, FWIW.
00:47	cemerick	keeping a close eye on ccw, though
00:48	Blackfoot	cemerick: hrm ok, i will give those a try thanks
00:48	cemerick	konr: or use gen-interface/defprotocol, and include the method definition in your deftype/defrecord
02:11	bhenry	are there security issues i'm not seeing in using the password hash from a django project's postgres db and passing it to a clojure app as a private token stored in a user collection in a mongo db so users would only be required to login (and more importantly be created) one time?
02:13	bhenry	note: intranet site with mostly trustworthy employees (trustworthy in that they aren't very tech savvy to mess with security)
03:24	vIkSiT	hmm, if I have do a def like : (def a "abc") - is there a way I can get a value with two indices swapped?
03:24	vIkSiT	basically, get "acb" for instance
03:34	raek	(defn swap [coll index-a index-b] (assoc coll index-a (get coll index-b) index-b (get coll index-a)))
03:34	tomoj	can't assoc strings, though
03:34	raek	hrm, right
03:34	tomoj	but I guess you could go through seqs
03:34	tomoj	er, vectors
03:35	raek	yes, do (vec) on coll
03:35	tomoj	is it always gonna be a string?
03:38	raek	(defn str-swap [s index-a index-b] (let [v (vec s)] (apply str (assoc v index-a (get v index-b) index-b (get v index-a)))))
03:38	raek	(str-swap "foo" 0 3) => "oof"
03:39	raek	I haven't looked in the javadoc, though
04:01	vIkSiT	oooh thats a good one.. raek, thanks for the pointer
04:01	vIkSiT	tomoj, hmm, could be any seq really
04:02	tomoj	that's unfortunate
04:02	tomoj	well, maybe not, hmm
04:05	tomoj	oh, yeah, it is, I think
04:06	tomoj	if it's any seq, you don't have constant time access to the nth element
04:06	tomoj	so swapping will be difficult
04:06	vIkSiT	ah good point
04:06	tomoj	I think you could return a new lazy seq with the elements swapped, but it would have to process all the elements between i and j before returning its ith element
04:08	tomoj	(and store them all in memory at once)
04:36	LauJensen	Morning all
04:40	esj	Morning el'Lau !
06:57	rhickey	cgrand: nice blog, although it falls short of what I would consider primitive support for fns - the ability to use them with map/reduce/filter et al
06:57	rhickey	one thing I would suggest is to not overload invoke like that
07:10	cgrand	rhickey, I know it's a short-sighted solution and not what you are aiming for. Thanks for confirming my second thougts about having named the method invoke.
07:11	rhickey	cgrand: the other big problem in general is the semantic difference between operations on boxed and unboxed ints
07:12	rhickey	I'm surprised actually that the non-hinted fib isn't much slower
07:13	cgrand	I guess it's -XX:+DoEscapeAnalysis at work
07:13	rhickey	cgrand: not turned on here, plus going through different math ops
07:15	cgrand	by difference in semantics you mean the promotion of ints to long etc. ?
07:15	rhickey	cgrand: the whole boxed number tower stuff, possible promotion to BigIntegers etc
07:16	rhickey	cgrand: did you compare hfib to fib in Java on same machine?
07:17	cgrand	no but I can, wait
07:17	rhickey	I'm wondering if all the math in hfib is primitive
07:17	rhickey	and the cost of the (int 1) (int 2)
07:21	rhickey	cgrand: heh, yeah, you are not getting what you think you are getting here, yet
07:21	rhickey	i.e. this wins here for me:
07:21	rhickey	(defn fibn [n] (let [n (int n)](if (>= (int 1) n) 1 (+ (fibn (dec n)) (fibn (- n (int 2)))))))
07:25	cgrand	rhickey: java for fib(38) : around 360ms
07:25	wires	sorry, i'm just dropping in halfway, but you can work with primitives in closure? I thought everything is boxed?
07:26	rhickey	cgrand: see ^^, I don't think you are getting prim args through the recursive calls
07:27	LauJensen	wires: sure
07:28	LauJensen	wires: http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/03/functional-fluid-dynamics-in-clojure.html
07:28	wires	LauJensen: using java interop?
07:28	rhickey	cgrand: in fact, I'm wondering if the inline is in play while compiling the body
07:28	wires	LauJensen: thanks, let me check that post
07:29	lpetit	wire: s/closure/clojure/g
07:29	cgrand	rhickey: at some point I traced it to check which method was invoked, and the specialized invoke was called
07:29	rhickey	cgrand: going to breakfast here, I'm sure you'll figure it out - bbl
07:32	wires	lpetit: sorry :) i know that :)
07:32	lpetit	wires: sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
07:32	wires	lpetit: hehe
07:33	wires	lpetit: it's always good to have a few spelling nazi's in the room ;)
08:24	rhickey	cgrand: your perf problem is having to go through the var to get 'this' for the inlined call
08:25	cgrand	rhickey: thanks, I checked that a pure reify solution was around 800ms
08:26	rhickey	cgrand: definterface + deftype 400 ms here
08:27	cgrand	rhickey: something along these lines http://gist.github.com/425352 ?
08:28	rhickey	cgrand: http://gist.github.com/425352#comments
08:28	lpetit	rhickey: what about having some warn-on-protocol-impl-redef (tentative name) to help users of libraries detect that some libraries one depends upon haven't respected the "protocol rule" ?
08:29	lpetit	rhickey: ideally, the message could indicate what the current namespace was for the last redef of the protocol impl for a certain type
08:30	lpetit	rhickey: I really fear the FUD coming in a few months if subtle problems arise. I would not like this problem to become Clojure's "oh no, don't use monkey patch at all of Ruby".
08:30	rhickey	lpetit: I don't want to solve theoretical problems, let's see if we actually have this problem in practice first
08:31	lpetit	rhickey: always the same scheme. lpetit envisions an hypothetical future problem, rhickey's pragmatism wins ;-)
08:32	rhickey	lpetit: the biggest difference is people monkey patch in Ruby because they have to, no one has to have duplicate protocol defs and social pressure might be enough to keep it that way
08:33	lpetit	rhickey: yes, maybe. I feel this way because me, as a library user, can be impacted by 2 libs I depend on in a very insidious way.
08:35	LauJensen	I opensourced bestinclass.dk: http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/06/best-in-class--now-open-sourced.html
08:35	rhickey	lpetit: then it becomes a quality of implementation thing for the libs, and a coordination effort for the community, but not something forced by a technicality
08:35	lpetit	rhickey: it's not just me breaking my own rules. Nothing will break, maybe for months, because nobody will notice that data are created slightly differently by another "almost semantically correct" implementation. I don't like this feeling. I can live with less compile time errors, because there will be (almost always) immediate runtime crashes. Not so easy with protocols redefs.
08:36	rhickey	lpetit: I'll be ready to listen when you first encounter this problem
08:37	rhickey	lpetit: libs can have 'almost semantically correct' versions of their own ordinary functions right now, causing runtime crashes. Again, just a quality of implementation issue
08:38	rhickey	the crash isn't due to a second def, but a wrong def
08:44	lpetit	rhickey: ok. It's just that in case of a wrong def, on can't know in advance something's will be wrong. With protocol redef, it could be done.
08:44	lpetit	s/on/one/
08:44	sexpbot	rhickey: ok. It's just that in case of a wroneg def, one can't know in advance something's will be wroneg. With protocol redef, it could be donee.
08:44	lpetit	s/wroneg/wrong def/
08:44	sexpbot	s/on/one/
08:44	LauJensen	I favor the warning - or something at least - if anything can go wrong, eventually it will go wrong
08:50	TimMc	LauJensen: I see the github repo of bestinclass -- cool.
08:53	LauJensen	:)
08:53	TimMc	This will be good for me to paw through. I learn best from example.
08:56	cgrand	rhickey: thanks, I added a disclaimer to my post and linked to this discussion
09:26	LauJensen	Best In Class #10 on Hacker News, hooray :)
09:27	carkh	hello all, i'm giving another try to records and could not find a way to instanciate a record from another namespace easily, i need to do it this way : (cara.foo.MyRecord. "test")
09:28	carkh	is there a way to avoid fully qualifying it ?
09:28	chouser	carkh: it's "just" a class. import it.
09:28	carkh	ahh ok
09:28	carkh	let me try this =P
09:29	carkh	indeed this works, thanks !
09:37	lpetit	carkh: I guess there's also some work in progress in master fo automatically creating factory fns for records
09:38	carkh	that would definetly help
09:38	eevar2	LauJensen: how is business? clojure an easy sell?
09:39	lpetit	carkh: I cannot retrieve it in the commits. Maybe I was just dreaming :-(
09:39	carkh	heh well no big deal anyways, just a convenience thing
09:57	Licenser	smart people around, is there a reason (I mean not an implementation reason but a thought out one) that update-in does not work with [] the same way get-in does?
09:58	Licenser	defn update-in
09:58	Licenser	~defn update-in
09:58	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
09:58	Licenser	thank you clojurebot
10:01	chouser	it does seem unlikely that was intentional, doesn't it.
10:02	LauJensen	eevar2: Business is tough, selling Clojure is never an issue though
10:03	eevar2	yea, recon it's finding decent clients which is the major issue
10:04	mefesto	does `iterate` use a constant amount of memory?
10:04	chouser	iterate returns a lazy seq
10:05	chouser	walking a lazy seq without holding the head uses a constant amount of memory, though it currently churns through (probably ephemeral) garbage
10:05	mefesto	chouser: hmmm ok am i doing this wrong? http://clojure.pastebin.com/SjaFmmCy
10:06	mefesto	chouser: i get an OutOfMemoryError before i hit 6mil
10:06	chouser	you're holding the head
10:06	chouser	xs is holding the entire seq, which is cached as you walk it.
10:06	mefesto	only using default jvm settings
10:06	Licenser	I hold my head when I have headache or bumped it, did you bump your variable?
10:06	mefesto	chouser: ahhh thanks
10:07	chouser	mefesto: if you get rid of the def and do (take 1e7 (iterate inc 1)) instead, it should work fine.
10:08	chouser	except you also need to use 'next' instead of 'rest' or you loop will never end
10:09	mefesto	chouser: thanks for the help, i was baffled :)
10:10	axi	hrm, gen-class doesn't work from the repl?
10:10	chouser	nope, must be AOT-compiled
10:10	axi	okay
10:10	axi	I guess I should just stop using classes
10:11	Leafw	axi: there goes a lifetime change :)
10:11	axi	lol
10:12	Licenser	axi: I managed to entirely stay away from classes save for the clj-swing lib which needs classes to interface with the java side, it is a great live when you get rid of classes
10:12	Licenser	hell many cultures made the same experience
10:12	chouser	gen-class is annoying, but you can work with classes via proxy, reify, definterface, defprotocol, defrecord, deftype -- all of which are much less annoying.
10:13	Licenser	yes defprotocol and deftype really are nice, just since its not stable yet the documentation is kind of sparse
10:14	trptcolin	do others get this same problem? http://gist.github.com/418759
10:15	trptcolin	ticket #372 in Assembla, but it seems stuartsierra isn't seeing it on his machine
10:15	trptcolin	i was thinking maybe hash-ordering difference or something..?
10:16	Licenser	trptcolin: yes
10:16	mefesto	trptcolin: i get the same exception
10:16	Licenser	same for me
10:16	trptcolin	good, thought i was going crazy for a moment :)
10:16	Licenser	no stuart is, :P
10:16	Licenser	but in a good way I think
10:19	trptcolin	can anyone w/ assembla permissions update the ticket to reflect the fact that others are seeing it as well? i had permission to create the ticket but not add/edit
10:19	Licenser	trptcolin: It seems you have found the reason alredy, it seems that the test macro works with substitutions and also substituted the function argument
10:19	mefesto	has anyone here integrated clojure in a spring project?
10:23	mefesto	i was playing around with it but quickly felt like it was totally pointless. now im wondering if it would be better to build the "service layer" using clojure only and expose a restful interface
10:33	Licenser	chouser: nice code!
10:39	bytecoder	hello, i'm looking for something to the following, given two lists [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 1 :c 5}] and [{:a 1 :b 3}] and the key :a the result should be [{:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 1, :c 5} ]
10:39	bytecoder	basically, the elements of old data have to updated with new values.
10:41	chouser	Licenser: :-) thanks.
10:41	bytecoder	i have a farily simple implemention with me; little worried about its performance and don't want to redo if it's already there.
10:41	Licenser	I wonder if we can convince people to change update-in :P it would help me a great deal right now ^^
10:42	bytecoder	Licenser: got it
10:43	Licenser	bytecoder: hm?
10:44	bytecoder	oops.
10:44	bytecoder	got the context wrong. "update-in" kind of sounded like what i want.
10:44	Licenser	g
10:45	Licenser	bytecoder: so remove the key from the second hashmap with dissoc then map over the first and merge
10:47	lpetit	ccw users around the corner ?
10:48	bytecoder	will it work in this case [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 1 :c 5} {:a 4 :b 6}] and [{:a 1 :b 3} {:a 4 :b 100}] too?
10:50	Licenser	lpetit: I used it a bit but am back to emacs
10:51	Licenser	bytecoder: epends on what you want the outcome to be
10:51	lpetit	wanted to know if some people had tried yesterday's release ...
10:52	bytecoder	ok. thanks for info. let me try that.
10:54	Licenser	bytecoder: user> (merge-but [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 1 :c 5}] [{:a 1 :b 3}] :a) ;=> ({:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 1, :c 5})
10:54	Licenser	(defn merge-but [[ & ms] [& sub-ms] exclude]
10:54	Licenser	(map #(merge %1 (dissoc %2 exclude)) ms (concat sub-ms (repeat {})))) is the code
11:00	bytecoder	(merge-but [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 1 :c 5} {:a 4 :b 6}] [{:a 1 :b 3} {:a 4 :b 100}] :a) ;=> ({:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 100, :c 5} {:a 4, :b 6})
11:01	Licenser	bytecoder: is that what you expect?
11:02	bytecoder	nope. i'm expecting ({:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 1, :c 5} {:a 4, :b 100})
11:02	Licenser	ah I see
11:03	bytecoder	let me post my code which uses list comprehension.
11:03	bytecoder	(defn merge-data [old-data new-data key]
11:03	bytecoder	(for [i old-data]
11:03	bytecoder	(let [d (first (select #(= (key i) (key %)) new-data))]
11:03	bytecoder	(if d d i))))
11:03	bytecoder	please don't mind the var names :)
11:04	Licenser	but why would you expect in the second map b to stay_
11:04	Licenser	d
11:04	bytecoder	i don't see this to be functional at all. i'm sure it can be done better.
11:04	Licenser	o you want ONLY :a updated or anything but a?
11:04	bytecoder	i have two list of maps. wherever the key matches the right side data should just take over.
11:04	Licenser	I don't see why in map 2 :b should be 1 and not 100
11:04	Licenser	ahh then I entirely missunderstood your problem
11:05	bytecoder	sorry. should have explained my question a little more.
11:05	Licenser	so if :a in the left map and :a in the right map have the same value you want the right map otherwise the left map?
11:06	bytecoder	yes right.
11:06	Licenser	and what happens if thre is no right side?
11:06	Licenser	or the right/left side does not have the key?
11:07	Licenser	then you keep the left one right?
11:07	bytecoder	yes, right.
11:08	Licenser	http://gist.github.com/425518
11:09	Licenser	so the name is horrible for this function now :P
11:11	cemerick	chouser: anything short of clojure data structure semantics doesn't seem worthwhile. Or, at the very least, you'd be building something other than a clojure, it seems.
11:12	bytecoder	Licenser: ({:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 1, :c 5} {:a 4, :b 6}) still not ({:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 1, :c 5} {:a 4, :b 100})
11:12	chouser	cemerick: yes, but I think some people want that sometimes. see scriptjure
11:12	bytecoder	Licenser: anyway, i think i can tweak it a bit to get it working. let me try.
11:12	cemerick	Oh, sure. And scriptjure is cool, bu tit's already there. :-)
11:12	bytecoder	Licenser: thanks again.
11:12	Licenser	ah I think I still got wrong what you want :)
11:12	Licenser	you're welcome
11:13	chouser	cemerick: yes. I should have mentioned it by name -- wasn't sure he knew of it.
11:14	TimMc	I'm curious about some of the design decisions in Clojure -- for instance, why have true, false and nil by reserved names, instead of #t, #f, and (I guess) #nil?
11:14	TimMc	Do any of the books cover that stuff?
11:15	mefesto	TimMc: i think i saw something on that in a video here http://clojure.blip.tv/
11:15	mefesto	TimMc: one of the vids "clojure for lisp programmers"
11:15	chouser	TimMc: I've never heard that particular question. My guess, and that's all it is, is that the latter would have been considered uglier than necessary.
11:15	mefesto	TimMc: iirc, false is only in there for java interop
11:16	TimMc	mefesto: In at least one Scheme, false evaluates to #f. You can shadow the binding, though. :-P
11:17	TimMc	chouser: I like #t and #f because then you don't have to worry about self-evaluating symbols or whatever. '(foo bar true) is a list of symbols in Scheme, but two symbols and a boolean in Clojure.
11:17	chouser	,(map type '(foo bar true))
11:17	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.lang.Symbol java.lang.Boolean)
11:18	chouser	interesting point
11:18	TimMc	mefesto: Thanks for the link.
11:18	TimMc	chouser: It's one of my main annoyances with lisp.
11:19	chouser	TimMc: symbols aren't used much for data in clojure.
11:19	chouser	not that that really answers your question, but perhaps is why it doesn't come up much.
11:20	TimMc	chouser: True. You could easily argue that if you are trying to use 'true, you're doing something wrong -- but it does mildly violate the principle of least astonishment.
11:22	KirinDave	I've never liked the Principle of Least Astonishment.
11:22	KirinDave	Nearly every feature of every language that I really liked, I was astonished by.
11:22	chouser	heh
11:22	TimMc	:-D
11:23	KirinDave	Macros are a great example. I think most people are sort of astonished by what they represent.
11:23	KirinDave	In ruby, Eigenhacking probably as a similar woah-factor.
11:24	chouser	Actually, I think a lot of people don't understand the value of macros.
11:24	KirinDave	Hell, even lexical scope somewhat astonishing when you come from a land of dynamic scoping.
11:24	KirinDave	chouser: I meant most of the (subset of people who write them)
11:24	chouser	If they did, they'd quit inventing languages with it them.
11:24	chouser	ah
11:24	chouser	s/with/without/
11:25	sexpbot	ah
11:25	chouser	sexpbot: not helpful.
11:25	chouser	actually, s/with it/without/
11:26	TimMc	I interpreted the original statement as "stop making DSLs with macros!"... which seemed odd.
11:27	chouser	yeah, sorry. not my point. :-)
11:27	chouser	someday I'll spend some time in template haskell and see if that takes me anywhere interesting.
11:28	KirinDave	There was this article recently that the hackernewscrowd was nodding their head with about how we need to stop having tool wars and start working together.
11:28	KirinDave	I sort of think the two are not mutually exclusive.
11:28	KirinDave	So much of compsci history since 1980 has been trying to get the software industry to stop fucking around and getting software engineers to take their craft more seriously.
11:29	KirinDave	I'm not complaining about my salary, but part of the problem with these sorts of jobs is that they attract as many cash seekers as craft seekers. :(
11:31	chouser	KirinDave: I recommend making up for it by being underpaid to write a book.
11:31	cemerick	KirinDave: I don't think programming, as we understand it today, can ever be crammed into an "engineering" box that would lead to / require the kind of culture shift you're talking about.
11:32	KirinDave	cemerick: I don't know. I mean, how different is what we do from architecture?
11:32	cemerick	Hugely. The physics and patterns of architecture are well known, and irrefutable.
11:32	cemerick	Best way to build a webapp? No so much. :-)
11:32	KirinDave	chouser: Haha, after my powerset sales stuff vests I am fine with a bit of time off. I was thinking of spending 6 months as a barista for blue bottle.
11:33	KirinDave	chouser: I can make a decent latte, but I want to really get it down to a science. ;)
11:33	chouser	heh
11:33	KirinDave	cemerick: But that's more a matter of time.
11:33	cemerick	I disagree.
11:33	KirinDave	cemerick: And it's not like building techniques are locked in stone.
11:33	cemerick	Programming and software dev is far more akin to cooking than it is to engineering. If we can pull ourselves out of this primordial ooze of twiddling bits and describing how to do things relevant to the domains we're working in, then I think there's a chance.
11:34	cemerick	There's really only one way to build an arch. :-)
11:34	cemerick	(speaking of stone)
11:34	candera	It's even more like building machines that will come to your house and cook for you, actually.
11:34	KirinDave	i think the major difference between architecture and programming is that for an architect, the blueprint is the most succinct, correct representation of a potential building. For software engineers, the program they are planning to write is the succinct representation.
11:34	KirinDave	So we have this problem of being unable to build adequate specs.
11:34	KirinDave	We have to project down from high level specs to specifics.
11:34	cemerick	The program is a manifestation, not a formal representation.
11:35	KirinDave	Oh?
11:35	TimMc	I think it's easier to see bad architecture in buildings than in libraries.
11:35	KirinDave	What's the difference for thought? :)
11:35	cemerick	blueprint:building :: ????:code
11:35	KirinDave	cemerick: There is no real comparison.
11:35	KirinDave	that's the problem.
11:35	KirinDave	We can't fully spec out a piece of code without writing code.
11:35	cemerick	Exactly. :-)
11:35	TimMc	My pet peeve is that we don't have good visualization tools for large codebases.
11:35	mefesto	isn't code the blueprint and it's running state the building?
11:36	chouser	mefesto: I think that's closer.
11:36	mefesto	tdd fit into this conversation any?
11:36	KirinDave	mefesto: No, because the blueprint (if correct and complete) has all the data to specify the building. A spec for code does not.
11:36	cemerick	If we can find a way to describe things in formalities, then we can lift ourselves into a better place.
11:36	KirinDave	And I dunno if they exist for our work.
11:36	lpetit	any chance to see one day optional static type checking in clojure ? (as e.g. is provided optionally in Chi )
11:37	chouser	and engineering+construction is like service maintenance
11:37	candera	I think if you asked guys who actually hammer nails, they might have a different opinion about the blueprint having all the data to specify the building. It specifies some projection of the building into idea space.
11:37	cemerick	lpetit: you mean Qi?
11:37	chouser	cemerick: but if that formality is sufficiently precise, isn't that just code in a new language?
11:37	KirinDave	chouser: Right. For compsci it's code all the way down.
11:37	lpetit	cemerick: oh yes Qi
11:38	cemerick	chouser: It might be "code in a new language", but it would be of a sort that is unambiguously the best way to represent what will eventually be built.
11:38	cemerick	Much like blueprints.
11:38	chouser	lpetit: I doubt it will look like it does in Qi, but yes I think so. Some day.
11:38	KirinDave	candera: Well the blueprint isn't providing a how-to-build-the-building list. It's providing a representation of the finished building.
11:38	KirinDave	lpetit: If SBCL can do it, why can't we? ;)
11:39	cemerick	...and given that formalism, no one will give a shite what the thing is built in, just like most people don't care about building materials.
11:39	chouser	lpetit: perhaps datalog rules making assertions about code at compile time that encompass not just types of expressions but potentially a lot more
11:40	KirinDave	SBCL sort of shocks me with how amazing that compile ris.
11:40	mefesto	i like comparing software dev to gardening... continually growing software
11:40	candera	KirinDave: agreed. But what use is just the representation in the absence of finishing the building? I'm not actually arguing against your point. But the architecture analogy has caused (IMO) endless trouble in our profession.
11:40	KirinDave	I suppose it is the prime example of, “If You Spec It, They Will Build It.Æ
11:40	lpetit	chouser, cemerick: I'm asking because not so rarely, I can see on articles, etc., the fact that there is no static type checking as "one of the advantages of working in a 'dynamic' langage". But I really think it was first a design decision because, he, in a two-years man work, one cannot put everything !, and not having static type checking (optional one, of course) was certainly a way to...
11:40	KirinDave	candera: What does it matter if it's useful?
11:40	lpetit	...save work (and thorough thougt about the nature of types, etc.).
11:40	mefesto	doesn't the blueprint view lead one towards big-upfront-design issues?
11:41	mefesto	where as "growing" lets you build on top of small working parts and incrementally proceed to new features
11:41	cemerick	KirinDave: It simply cannot be code all the way down, or we screwed. Look at some of those fairly elaborate (and successful in their niche) application builders that are entirely graphical. They get jobs done, and no one using them knows jack about code, or cares. That's the way it should be.
11:41	chouser	lpetit: I'm not sure that's quite right. There has been much effort put into keeping Clojure as dynamic as possible without sacrificing too much performance.
11:41	candera	KirinDave: I suppose whether or not it matters it's useful is a matter of perspective. :)
11:41	lpetit	chouser, cemerick: and I've always seen this as a poor argument, even a counter-productive argument, when told in the ears of Enterprise people.
11:41	cemerick	In other words, we need to put 90% of programmers out of work. :-D
11:41	KirinDave	lpetit: Ultimately dynamic type checking provides more room for optimization and analysis. The more detail you put in your code at compile time, the less latitude a runtime environment has to profile and fix it.
11:42	lpetit	chouser: maybe I didn't make my point as clear as I intended.
11:42	KirinDave	lpetit: As trace tree optimizations become cheaper and more well-understood, we're going to see shit like magical auto-unboxing of arithmetic, etc just as a side effect of even bigger optimizations.
11:43	KirinDave	lpetit: Already what LLVM can accomplish given a codepath and some modules is _astonishing_.
11:43	KirinDave	And garbage collectors are so good now that for a lot of use patterns they are faster than manual malloc.
11:43	lpetit	chouser: I'm not complaining. I'm just thinking that we should not place so much emphasis (some times) as not having static type checking as an advantage.
11:43	cemerick	lpetit: Having worked in scala for a year (not exactly a long time, but perhaps long enough?), I'm very skeptical of rich statically-typed langs. The boxes you can paint yourself into are exquisite and very, very painful.
11:43	Licenser	what is SBCL?
11:43	TimMc	KirinDave:
11:44	chouser	lpetit: perhaps not. But not requiring static type declarations is indeed an advantage.
11:44	TimMc	KirinDave: (Sorry.) What is "Eigenhacking"?
11:44	arohner	Licenser: a Common Lisp implementation
11:44	TimMc	It is apparently ungoogleable.
11:44	lpetit	cemerick: that's why making it optional is IMHO the line to draw
11:44	Plouj	Licenser: Steel Bank Common Lisp
11:45	lpetit	chouser: not in all environments.
11:45	chouser	lpetit: if the language required it, it would be required in all environments
11:46	KirinDave	TimMc: Eigenhacking is opening up the eigenclass of ruby objects and classes.
11:46	cemerick	lpetit: Perhaps. I'm not sure what that would look like, in a day-to-day sort of way.
11:46	KirinDave	TimMc: It's my word. I'm a big enough deal to be able to do that sort of thing.
11:46	cemerick	I suppose type hinting as we have now, but then the compiler errors out if you're attempting to access an undefined key on a defrecord instance?
11:46	lpetit	chouser: in Qi, as far as I understand it, it's optional. I sometimes like to change a type in my IDE, and see instantly all the red crosses spotting all the places I need to go. :)
11:46	TimMc	KirinDave: Thanks, "eigenclass" is actually getting me some results. (I don't know any Ruby.)
11:47	lpetit	chouser: OK, I've just done this all day long, so I'm biaised today :-D
11:47	lpetit	chouser: in java of course
11:48	KirinDave	Man, if ARM would write some instructions and hardware to directly support garbage collection in phones...
11:48	lpetit	KirinDave: I don't totally follow you. I'm not thinking about optimization, but about having, optionnally, the most errors reported as quick as possible. that's all.
11:48	KirinDave	A new era
11:48	KirinDave	lpetit: Well the only type of static type checking really useful for errors is haskell's style.
11:48	KirinDave	lpetit: The java style is ultimately a red herring in error correctness.
11:49	KirinDave	err. error vs. correctness
11:49	lpetit	cemerick: haskell did that well, no ?
11:49	cemerick	lpetit: I wouldn't know -- never spent enough time there.
11:51	lpetit	cemerick: by following the Qi tutorial once, I thought it would be as easy as : emit some (start-static) form to the compiler, and from now on it does its best to fail if the information it has on types for new functions/macro clashes. Later on, emit (stop-static) and you're back in the good old "fail at runtime" environment.
11:52	cemerick	That seems a little baroque. I'd rather have a compiler flag I can set! to true, but whatever. :-)
11:52	cemerick	I'd be perfectly happy if type-hinted host interop were statically enforced. That's a reasonable first compromise, I think.
11:53	lpetit	cemerick: no because you would not break other's code at compile time. Still let it a chance to fail at runtime :-p
11:53	lpetit	must leave, thanks for the chat
11:57	The-Kenny	(doc reify)
11:57	clojurebot	"([& opts+specs]); reify is a macro with the following structure: (reify options* specs) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of the protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args] body)* Methods should be supplied for all methods of the desired protocol(s) and interface(s). You can also define overrides for methods of Object. Note that a
11:58	The-Kenny	Are the examples in the doc for reify outdated?
11:58	The-Kenny	(str (let [f "foo"] (reify Object (toString [] f))))
11:58	The-Kenny	,(str (let [f "foo"] (reify Object (toString [] f))))
11:58	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Must supply at least one argument for 'this' in: toString
12:10	carkh	,(str (let [f "foo"] (reify Object (toString [this] f))))
12:10	clojurebot	"foo"
12:11	The-Kenny	carkh: Yeah, I know. But the doc uses [] as the arglist. Looks outdated
12:11	carkh	oh ok
12:12	Licenser	coooookies!
12:43	_fogus_	KirinDave: Finally got around to reading it. Nice.
13:39	islon	I have a vector and I want to process the items 5 by 5, which is a good function?
13:42	bhenry	can i have a map of structs?
13:44	dnolen	islon: (map #(partition 5 %) (partition 25 v)) ?
13:44	dnolen	bhenry: sure
13:47	islon	dnolen: yes, thanks
13:54	djpowell	any clojure.java.shell people online?
14:12	bhenry	i need help with the error i get with this. https://gist.github.com/e4ac084bfb54a723c147
14:13	bartj	, (doc signal)
14:13	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:15	bartj	bhenry: what are signal and other functions towards the end of your script?
14:15	candera	bhenry: Might be a swank/slime problem. You tried it from a bare REPL?
14:17	replaca	djpowell: what's up?
14:17	raek	bhenry: you'll have to use (:refer-clojure :exclude [type]) in your namespace declaration to avoid collision with clojure.core/type
14:18	raek	or simply rename type to something else, e.g. remark-type
14:38	bartj	is it possible to see the source code of the into function?
14:39	bhenry	raek: i had a feeling that was going to be used already
14:39	bhenry	bartj: those are part of the error in the comment. i don't know what they are, but they aren't in my function.
14:40	raek	bartj: (use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils) (source into)
14:42	bartj	raek: thanks!
14:43	djpowell	replaca: oh, i just have a few suggested fixes to it
14:44	djpowell	replaca: bufferring the io via clojure.java.io; allowing specification of input encoding; reading streams in parallel threads to prevent stderr from filling the buffer and blocking; and probably using platform default encoding rather than utf-8 as the default
14:45	djpowell	i'll get a patch together, but wanted to discuss whether they are all a good idea first
14:45	raek	personally, I don't think "platform default encoding" makes any sense
14:49	raek	if the default is UTF-8, at least one can rely on a fixed behaviour for reading non-ascii characters
14:51	raek	the encoding should be considered a part of the data format, not an implementation detail
14:52	michaeltomer	I'm a complete Java and Clojure noob, so forgive the ignorance of this question: Can you include a JAR file from within a Clojure script? Kind of like how Ruby does " require 'MyAwesomeFile' "
14:53	raek	as a swede, one gets tired of ones "åäö" turning into "Ã¥Ã¤Ã¶" or "???" at random all the time... :)
14:53	raek	</rant>
14:53	chouser	michaeltomer: not usually. generally the .jar must be on the classpath when you start the JVM.
14:53	TimMc	raek: hear, hear
14:54	michaeltomer	Will that complicate things for distributing the files to endusers who probably don't have the JDK, and certainly don't have clojure-contrib in their classpath?
14:54	michaeltomer	Sorry, I'm a Ruby programmer by trade, so I've got some biases to overcome :)
14:55	raek	you can always ship the jar files with your program (if its license allowes it, of course)
14:55	raek	just start clojure with the correct classpath
14:55	raek	and you can use what's inside the jar
14:55	michaeltomer	That sounds easy enough. Thanks!
14:55	chouser	michaeltomer: I'll try to defend the JVM here, though my heart's not really in it...
14:56	raek	michaeltomer: I recommend looking into leiningen
14:56	raek	it's a build system that, among other things, handles dependencies
14:56	michaeltomer	chouser: That's okay. I could try to defend the speed of MRI, but my heart isn't in it either :)
14:56	chouser	michaeltomer: it's not uncommon to provide a single .jar with everything you need, sometimes called an uberjar. leiningen and maven both provde ways to build these based on a list of dependencies you provide.
14:57	Crowbar7	MRI?
14:57	raek	however, when you program, you don't mention the jar file, only the things in it
14:57	michaeltomer	The canonical implementation of Ruby. Matz's Ruby Interpreter.
14:58	chouser	michaeltomer: another option is to provide a .jar with its dependencies available inside in a format that leiningen and maven can use. end-users with either can then ask for your .jar plus all its depenencies.
14:58	michaeltomer	My clumsy way of saying that Java may be rigid, but Ruby is slow.
14:58	chouser	its dependency list, that is.
14:58	michaeltomer	Sounds like I should start learning about Maven as well.
14:58	michaeltomer	I'm really looking for something simple. I'd rather not have to mess with build tools.
14:59	raek	if namespace my.random.project is in mrp.jar, you start clojure with -cp mrp.jar and write (:use my.random.project) in your namespace declaration in the file that uses the lib
14:59	raek	leiningen uses maven under the hood
14:59	michaeltomer	I like running scripts from my text editor, but it looks like I'm going to have to start running things from the command line.
14:59	raek	but only for dependency management, I think
14:59	michaeltomer	A bit of a bummer.
15:00	Licenser	michaeltomer: when you use leiningen lein-search might be nice for you since it is somewhat a frontend for the clojars webside that remotely reminds of ruby gems
15:00	raek	you don't have to run from the command line
15:00	michaeltomer	Licenser: Ah, that's what that is. That could be really handy.
15:01	michaeltomer	raek: Wouldn't I need to in order to specify the jar files to include?
15:01	michaeltomer	Unless using something like leiningen?
15:01	raek	well, you have to decide what dependencies you need to use before starting the clojure instance, true
15:02	michaeltomer	In this case, I'm doing the Mire tutorial which requires clojure-contrib
15:02	chouser	michaeltomer: for my own use, I have a directory full of jars (actually symlinks to jars) and a clojure startup script that puts them all on the classpath.
15:02	raek	but you can still configure, say emacs, to launch the repl with your jar in the classpath
15:02	raek	it
15:02	raek	it's just a matter of configuring the IDE
15:03	michaeltomer	raek: Fair enough, though it seems like overkill to configure my text editor just for one script.
15:03	raek	every project can have its own versions of its dependecies
15:03	chouser	and also all the jars that ubuntu has installed for me. So I can manually "install" a .jar by symlinking to it, or use apt.
15:03	dnolen	michaeltomer: if you want something like the convenience of gem, I'd go with lein.
15:04	michaeltomer	Like I said, these things seem easier in Ruby, but that trade comes with a massive drop in speed.
15:04	michaeltomer	That's a big part of going with Clojure. That and I've always wanted to learn a lisp.
15:05	michaeltomer	I'll check out leiningen. Thanks!
15:05	chouser	michaeltomer: I have felt exactly the same way about .jar management.
15:05	raek	I think that ruby have been designed with scripting in mind much more than clojure
15:06	chouser	Building Clojure on top the JVM is one of its biggest strengths, and also one of its biggest weaknesses.
15:06	raek	true.
15:06	michaeltomer	raek: That's a good point.
15:06	trptcolin	fwiw, i don't think the jar-loading thing is really a JVM limitation. for instance, JRuby allows you to dynamically load jars if you know the path, even if they're not on the classpath when you launch.
15:07	headius	michaeltomer: what sort of things cause a massive drop in speed on ruby?
15:07	trptcolin	i guess it's probably a difference in the way the classloader works?
15:07	chouser	(doc add-classpath)
15:07	clojurebot	"([url]); DEPRECATED Adds the url (String or URL object) to the classpath per URLClassLoader.addURL"
15:07	trptcolin	ah, interesting
15:07	Raynes	trptcolin: Clojure allowed that before, but the add-classpath function/macro was deprecated.
15:07	Raynes	Oh, too late.
15:08	headius	trptcolin: all java libs loaded from ruby code in JRuby are loaded via our own URLClassLoader
15:08	chouser	apparently it caused problems in various deployment situations. A pity.
15:08	michaeltomer	I'm thinking about using Clojure for offloading some data processing onto customer's computers. I need something that'll work on Windows, Linux, and OS X, and I would prefer it not be a nightmare to set up. Does Clojure fit that bill?
15:08	headius	pfft
15:08	michaeltomer	Hey, Charlie! A familiar face!
15:08	headius	URLClassLoader works fine when you need it...and when it causes problems...don't use it
15:08	headius	michaeltomer: hello!
15:09	michaeltomer	I'm a Rubyist treading into Java land. Slap some sense into me before I get hurt!
15:09	bartj	er, what gives?
15:09	bartj	, (doseq [entry ({:a 1} {:b 2})] (println entry))
15:09	clojurebot	nil
15:10	trptcolin	,({:a 1} {:b 2})
15:10	clojurebot	nil
15:10	candera	bartj: did you mean that to be a vector?
15:10	michaeltomer	headius: I just mean the speed in general. Ruby isn't a terribly performant language, no offense to your awesome work on JRuby.
15:10	chouser	,({:a 1} :a)
15:10	clojurebot	1
15:10	bartj	corrected...should have been - (doseq [entry '({:a 1} {:b 2})] (println entry))
15:11	headius	doseq always makes me thing of The Most Interesting Man In The World
15:11	headius	think
15:11	chouser	bartj: a vector is more idiomatic unless you have a specific reason to quote that collection.
15:11	headius	michaeltomer: ok...that's fair to say, though it's mostly due to the main implementation being fairly naive
15:11	michaeltomer	headius: Absolutely.
15:11	headius	michaeltomer: I'm pretty sure I can get jruby to thwomp any other JVM dynlang very soon
15:12	headius	at least for straight-line execution perf
15:12	michaeltomer	headius: Including Clojure? If so, then you've got my attention.
15:12	bartj	chouser: er, no reason
15:12	headius	including clojure
15:12	headius	I've just started to play with dynamic optimizations in jruby that can turn dynamic calls into static, lift boxed math to primitives, and so on
15:13	headius	by end of summer some of that should be landing in jruby 1.6
15:13	headius	but this is #jruby talk, so I'll shut up now
15:13	michaeltomer	headius: Sounds awesome. I'd be very interested in using JRuby, as my code is already in Ruby. I'd prefer not to rewrite if I can help it.
15:13	bartj	candera: yes vector would be better...
15:13	michaeltomer	headius: Sorry :)
15:13	headius	michaeltomer: feel free to talk in jruby, we can at least see if jruby handles your case faster right now
15:14	bartj	er, is it possible to group all values of a given key
15:14	bartj	something like this: ({:A 1} {:A 2} {:A 3} {:C 1} {:C 2})
15:14	bartj	to this: ({:A [1 2 3]} {:C [1 2]})
15:15	bartj	I tried:
15:15	bartj	, (into {} ({:A 1} {:A 2} {:A 3} {:C 1} {:C 2}))
15:15	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentArrayMap
15:16	bartj	I mean:
15:17	bartj	, (into {} '({:A 1} {:A 2} {:A 3} {:C 1} {:C 2}))
15:17	clojurebot	{:A 3, :C 2}
15:18	chouser	,(reduce (partial merge-with vector) [{:A 1} {:A 2} {:A 3} {:C 1} {:C 2}])
15:18	clojurebot	{:C [1 2], :A [[1 2] 3]}
15:18	chouser	hm, not quite...
15:19	pedroteixeira	,(doc group-by)
15:19	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a map of the elements of coll keyed by the result of f on each element. The value at each key will be a vector of the corresponding elements, in the order they appeared in coll."
15:21	chouser	but he only wants the values, not the maps
15:22	pedroteixeira	remember there was a reduce-by function in groups, might help?
15:22	bhenry	candera: i just had to quote each struct form
15:22	chouser	,(reduce (fn [m p] (let [[k v] (first p)] (assoc m k (conj (m k []) v)))) {} [{:A 1} {:A 2} {:A 3} {:C 1} {:C 2}])
15:22	clojurebot	{:C [1 2], :A [1 2 3]}
15:23	chouser	the use of single-entry maps is a bit odd
15:23	candera	bhenry: Glad you found it. One day I'll actually answer a question successfully here.
15:24	candera	Before anyone else. Even chouser. :)
15:24	candera	Maybe when he's asleep.
15:24	chouser	Mmmm, sleep...
15:25	bartj	chouser: perhaps, I can run this?
15:25	bartj	(zipmap (keys {:C [1 2], :A [[1 2] 3]}) (map #(into [] (flatten %)) (vals {:C [1 2], :A [[1 2] 3]})))
15:26	bartj	, (zipmap (keys {:C [1 2], :A [[1 2] 3]}) (map #(into [] (flatten %)) (vals {:C [1 2], :A [[1 2] 3]})))
15:26	clojurebot	{:A [1 2 3], :C [1 2]}
15:26	chouser	yeah, or just use the reduce expr I gave.
15:26	bartj	chouser: yes, I did not look at that...
15:27	codemonsta	i
15:27	codemonsta	i'm having trouble reading lisp / clojure code
15:27	codemonsta	my eyes don't know where to start at
15:27	codemonsta	in C++, I look from left to right
15:27	codemonsta	that doesn't seem to work here
15:27	chouser	codemonsta: right. often it helps to read from the inside out.
15:28	dnolen	codemonsta: -> and ->> help with that
15:28	dnolen	,(+ 4 (/ 5 (* 6 3)))
15:28	clojurebot	77/18
15:28	dnolen	,(-> 6 (* 3) (/ 5) (+ 4))
15:28	clojurebot	38/5
15:29	chouser	I tend to skim along from the outside in (left to right) picking up important words like 'defn', 'for', 'doseq', 'let' ... things that change the context in some way, but only keep them vaguely in mind.
15:29	dnolen	heh
15:29	candera	Here's an alternate solution. Looks cleaner, so I'm assuming that I'm missing something :)
15:29	candera	(reduce
15:29	candera	#(merge-with
15:29	candera	(partial conj [])
15:29	candera	%1 %2)
15:29	candera	[{:A 1} {:A 2} {:B 3} {:B 4}])
15:29	chouser	...then read from the inside out to get the real details, what each form returns and passes to the next.
15:29	candera	Whoops. Should have reformatted. Sorry.
15:30	dnolen	,(+ (/ (* 6 3) 5) 4)
15:30	clojurebot	38/5
15:30	candera	,(reduce #(merge-with (partial conj []) %1 %2) [{:A 1} {:A 2} {:B 3} {:B 4}])
15:30	clojurebot	{:B [3 4], :A [1 2]}
15:30	bartj	codemonsta: I found this wonderful wonderful article on Stack Overflow when I was starting out - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1894209/how-to-read-mentally-lisp-clojure-code
15:30	codemonsta	is using -> and ->> idiomatic?
15:30	codemonsta	it seems like one would want to avoid them
15:30	dnolen	codemonsta: yup
15:31	chouser	candera: that is nice. not sure what's wanted if a key shows up only once though.
15:31	chouser	,(reduce #(merge-with (partial conj []) %1 %2) [{:A 1} {:B 3} {:B 4}]){:B [3 4], :A 1}
15:31	bartj	candera: thanks!
15:31	clojurebot	{:B [3 4], :A 1}
15:32	candera	chouser: Ah, good point.
15:33	codemonsta	reading clojure code make me cry because I can read 100 of lines of C++ code in a moments
15:33	codemonsta	reading 100 lines of clojure code, however...
15:33	chouser	codemonsta: ah, but 100 lines of clojure is actually like at least 200 of C++. And possibly more like 500
15:34	bartj	codemonsta: after you learn to read clojure code, you will still cry...
15:34	Raynes	codemonsta: The 100 lines of Clojure you'd be reading would probably do about 10 times what the C++ code does.
15:34	chouser	it's more idea-dense, so don't be surprised if it takes longer to read.
15:34	bartj	codemonsta: But, those would be tears of joy and disbelief :)
15:34	trptcolin	and your mouse's scroll wheel will last much longer
15:34	codemonsta	so i shouldn't feel like a tard if I can't read clojure at the same rate I can read C++?
15:35	dnolen	codemonsta: certainly not
15:35	codemonsta	i feel like a first grader trying to read 'run spot run' over here
15:36	dnolen	that's 'map spot reduce' ;)
15:36	codemonsta	and all the other kids are laughing at me :)
15:37	codemonsta	is it possible / easy to implement a metacircular evaluator in clojure?
15:37	codemonsta	it would be nice to augment the language that way, if one were so inclined
15:39	dnolen	codemonsta: there's plenty to augment with the language as it is. macros go a looooooooooong way. you can autogenerate code from files on your disc at runtime if you want.
15:39	codemonsta	i can't hack eval then?
15:40	dnolen	codemonsta: you can, but eval is really slow, since it's not interpreted, eval just kicks in the compiler and puts that code right into the running program.
15:40	chouser	Clojure has eval. What would metacircular improve? (I'm not asking rhetorically)
15:42	codemonsta	someone was making an effort to 'port' SICP to clojure
15:42	wires	codemonsta: i'm not sure what you mean; isn't clojure itself metacircular? ie. it depends on JVM + clojure.jar to implement core functions? clojure is not an (self-) interpreter, right?
15:43	codemonsta	the concepts are not clear in my head
15:44	bartj	codemonsta: did you have a look at the SO link I pinged above?
15:44	codemonsta	I'd just like to be able to extend the language itself the same way its is done in SICP
15:44	codemonsta	yes
15:45	trptcolin	codemonsta: jakemcc has gotten the furthest i know about
15:45	trptcolin	see http://github.com/jakemcc/sicp-study
15:46	bartj	did anyone of you here do this: http://sicpinclojure.com/
15:48	codemonsta	http://blog.n01se.net/?p=41
15:50	codemonsta	i suppose i'd really want to hack the compiler instead of the evaluator
15:51	codemonsta	my goal is to work in a language that I can personally extend
15:51	chouser	macros are hooks directly into the compiler
15:51	wires	codemonsta: just start writing. macro will get you very far
15:52	codemonsta	macros transform expressions
15:52	codemonsta	but that's not the end-all
15:52	wires	codemonsta: if that's not enough, you can drop to java?
15:53	chouser	nah. macros will get you really really far
15:53	wires	indeed
15:53	codemonsta	but they're not as powerful as hacking the language
15:53	dnolen	codemonsta: there are certain things in sicp that you can't do (like implementing lazy evaluation). but if that's what you really want to explore why not hack on PLT Scheme?
15:53	wires	codemonsta: uhm. what specifically are you thinking about
15:54	codemonsta	I don't need to hack the language
15:55	codemonsta	I want to work in a language that's hackable if it come to needing it
15:55	nDuff	codemonsta, you might be surprised at how much of "the language" is actually defined through macros already
15:55	chouser	like... lazy-seq
15:56	wires	codemonsta: but what do you mean, hackable: you can write code that transforms your code, you can replace/reimplement the core implementations (which are just java), or you can add new 'elementary' functions using java interop
15:56	codemonsta	i mean I shouldn't have to drop to java to add special forms
15:56	codemonsta	but, it's acceptable if I have to
15:57	codemonsta	it's probably easier to hack the java than to hack, say, LLVM
15:57	chouser	if you really want to, you can write macros that generate java bytecode and load that right up. clojure-native actually does this, without a single line of Java.
15:57	codemonsta	still, that would only apply the JVM version
15:57	codemonsta	what if I want to deploy to .NET?
15:57	chouser	I'm sorry, what are you actually asking for?
15:57	codemonsta	I get to maintain a hack on each platform?
15:58	wires	codemonsta: start coding, then come back with concrete problem you can't do with macros
15:58	codemonsta	just asking for what lisps usually provide
15:58	chouser	is there a specific feature you'd like to add that you think cannot be done via macros?
15:58	wires	codemonsta: I was skeptical at first, but really just try it ;-)
15:59	codemonsta	I'm not skeptical, just trying to find the downsides of clojure
15:59	wires	haha
15:59	chouser	classpath
16:00	wires	codemonsta: dude, If you ask me... there are very little downsides... compared to haskell, c++, java, python etc..
16:00	wires	codemonsta: this stuff is so elegant, it's mindblowing
16:00	codemonsta	perhaps, but one still needs to know the ugly spots
16:00	zakwilson	JVM startup time
16:00	zakwilson	JVM memory overhead
16:00	codemonsta	if it were up to me, my next project would be in Clojure
16:00	wires	agreed
16:01	dnolen	codemonsta: not as fast C++, classpath, young ecosystem, JVM startup times are downsides.
16:01	zakwilson	and the fact that I can't get a parallel map to run efficiently on the Mac Pro I'm using for the heavier number crunching
16:02	codemonsta	I wonder how far along the clr implementation is
16:02	codemonsta	.net rocks much harder than the java library
16:02	codemonsta	tho I bet there's mad issues with .net libs on the clr port as well
16:03	zakwilson	How does .NET's performance compare to the JVM?
16:03	codemonsta	but you're right, I just need to start writing clojure
16:03	codemonsta	If only I had a project I could use it for...
16:03	zakwilson	Create one
16:04	shoover	codemonsta: ICFP is in 2 weeks
16:04	codemonsta	i don't have time for hobby projects, sadly
16:05	codemonsta	all I have time to do is scan over new languages and annoy said language users on IRC
16:05	shoover	well played
16:05	wires	codemonsta: idea: find some crappy implementation of a java interface and re-implement that using clojure
16:06	codemonsta	hmmm
16:06	wires	codemonsta: we did that in our product and are now slowly learning and rewrite more and more
16:06	wires	well, we = me
16:06	wires	haha
16:06	KirinDave	Is Michael Harrison here?
16:07	zakwilson	That sounds like an awful way to learn Clojure... a good way to learn the Java interop part, but I find that part of the language a neccessary evil, not one of the interesting parts
16:09	chouser	Might be a good way to learn why it is you should learn Clojure, though.
16:10	wires	zakwilson: I started with toy programs, fib, graph algorithms etc. to get the idea
16:10	KirinDave	chouser: Maybe my blog post had a major error by neglecting to mention extending primitive types
16:10	KirinDave	chouser: Or maybe the average rubyist is just not getting what I was saying...
16:10	KirinDave	chouser: But I am seeing a lot of http://www.michaelharrison.ws/weblog/?p=303#more-303
16:10	KirinDave	And I cannot parse it.
16:11	wires	zakwilson: We have a product and for us it made a lot of sense to rewrite some core parts in clojure, java interop hence unavoidable.
16:11	KirinDave	I thought I was very careful to mention divorcing inheritance from the issue. I think I said it at least twice.
16:12	dnolen	KirinDave: well it is a subtle thing. But yeah that post thoroughly misses the point.
16:13	KirinDave	dnolen: Look at the last example
16:15	dnolen	you can only respond to that with: huh?
16:16	codemonsta	clojure is strongly typed, right?
16:16	dnolen	on the other hand, there is a "hostiness" to protocols and types that you can only understand from "inside" Clojure. So perhaps the reponse isn't as off base as I'd like to believe.
16:19	codemonsta	so anyways, I write simulators for a living
16:19	bartj	chouser: thanks a lot!
16:19	codemonsta	and writing simulators generally involves modeling real world objects with structures
16:20	codemonsta	like struct Entity { String Identity; Vector3 Position; Matrix Orientation; };
16:21	_fogus_	KirinDave: I am perpetually perplexed by monkey-patching especially given that I know very little Ruby.
16:21	codemonsta	so that's usually my starting point
16:21	KirinDave	_fogus_: It's just class reopening.
16:21	joshua-choi	dnolen: Protocols and types are being used though to make Clojure more independent of the host, interestingly enough.
16:21	_fogus_	KirinDave: But your post seemed pretty comprehensible
16:21	joshua-choi	in contrast
16:21	KirinDave	But people seem to think Mixins and inheritance solve the problem.
16:21	KirinDave	And they do not, but perhaps that is the subtlety.
16:21	codemonsta	then I usually use inheritance to extend structures like struct Person : Entity
16:21	KirinDave	in general is-a relationships have fallen out of fashion
16:22	KirinDave	They're the most difficult kind of relationship, requiring basically full knowledge of the underlying class.
16:22	KirinDave	has-a is far more reasonable for most uses.
16:22	codemonsta	Kirin, let's not get into that just yet
16:22	_fogus_	Monkey patching seems like the bastard child of Scala's implicits
16:22	codemonsta	Is this a reasonable approach in closure?
16:22	cemerick	FYI, last call on dropping your 2¢ in the "State of Clojure" survey. It's going to get closed down around midnight tonight EDT: http://bit.ly/dCmlZL
16:22	KirinDave	_fogus_: I think it predates scala, but...
16:22	KirinDave	_fogus_: Want to really get weirded out? Check out eigenclasses
16:23	cemerick	by quite a ways, yeah
16:23	cemerick	I think the term is actually from the python side, no?
16:23	KirinDave	eigen?
16:23	KirinDave	Or monkeypatch
16:23	cemerick	monkeypatching
16:23	codemonsta	can / should one do simulation modeling in Clojure creating and extending structures?
16:23	codemonsta	'by creating'
16:23	KirinDave	mp comes from python as a pejorative. Rubyists adopted the term as a prideful thing.
16:23	cemerick	yeah, that's what I thought
16:24	cemerick	it's a big smell in the py world
16:24	_fogus_	KirinDave: I've looked into eigenclasses.
16:24	dnolen	codemonsta: yes. deftype, defrecord will do that. Though Clojure takes the "inheritance sucks" stance. Which is making more sense to me everyday.
16:25	codemonsta	I agree that inheritance suck, but in many languages, the extra indirection of has-a gets in the way
16:25	bartj	chouser: the only thing I am not sure is why you used (first p)
16:25	codemonsta	All major C-derived languages, for example
16:27	codemonsta	in C++, you'd have karen->GetPerson()->GetEntity()->GetPosition();
16:27	codemonsta	and that's really terrible
16:28	codemonsta	you could write forwarding methods at each level for each facet, but that's also terrible
16:28	codemonsta	not sure if clojure has the same issues
16:29	codemonsta	the alternative is automatic forwarding to implement is-a via has-a, and I don't recall what languages have that
16:31	KirinDave	clever fellow, that one
16:31	bartj	dnolen: any nice articles explaining that stance?
16:32	codemonsta	my summary is that is-a can always be implemented as has-a very succinctly with just a bit of sugar
16:33	codemonsta	and the problem with is-a is that it permanently bind the relationship of the two objects
16:33	MenTaLguY	is it bad that I actually don't remember what I wrote about eigenclasses?
16:33	codemonsta	whereas has-a allows the relationship to change
16:33	dnolen	bartj: most of Clojure's source and literature on clojure.org :)
16:33	KirinDave	My problem is that I am just so sick and tired of the ruby community at large
16:34	KirinDave	There is a nasty problem with the ruby community of affecting DHH and crew.
16:34	codemonsta	there's also the old and true mantra of 'prefer containment to inheritance'
16:34	KirinDave	Now those guys know what they're doing, but many rubyists are web devs who don't have nearly the skills those people have either through effort or talent
16:34	codemonsta	!ggl
16:34	KirinDave	But they take a chip on their shoulders like, "Didn't you think of inheritance?"
16:34	dnolen	bartj: multimethods do support dispatching on hierarchy.
16:34	KirinDave	Or anything :)
16:35	KirinDave	Dispatching on string length ;)
16:35	raek	alef and go-lang has and interesting approach to has-a/is-a
16:35	_fogus_	MenTalguY: most of my exposure was your frequent responses on _why's old redhanded blog
16:35	MenTaLguY	ahhh
16:35	MenTaLguY	I'm pretty angry at _why for nuking redhanded
16:35	MenTaLguY	it was a big part of our collective memory
16:35	codemonsta	the advantage of is-a is establishing semantic type relationships
16:36	codemonsta	has-a generally does not impose a type semantic
16:36	codemonsta	though I suppose that's less important in a dynamic languages
16:37	KirinDave	MenTaLguY: Can we be angry at him for a lot of things?
16:37	MenTaLguY	I wonder if the wayback machine has redhanded archived actually...
16:37	codemonsta	the difference between is-a and has-a really is semantics, so you can't discount either
16:37	KirinDave	MenTaLguY: I don't know or care what his deal was. He took a thing he only had partial ownership in
16:37	MenTaLguY	indeed
16:38	KirinDave	Also, yaml's code sucked. ;)
16:38	MenTaLguY	I'm not quite sure what the deal was with syck
16:38	codemonsta	what happened?
16:38	codemonsta	someone wiped a community code base?
16:39	KirinDave	MenTaLguY: I suspect it was designed as an elaborate prank.
16:39	KirinDave	MenTaLguY: Also I am sorta grumpy that everyone said to learn ruby through why's book. Why's book was the worst way to learn ruby for 90% of everyone who asked
16:39	KirinDave	But people loved comics so they're like YEAH!
16:39	MenTaLguY	codemonsta: roughly speaking, yes
16:40	codemonsta	and noone has a back up?
16:40	KirinDave	codemonsta: it was his blog
16:40	MenTaLguY	codemonsta: one of the major rubyists who ran a lot of key infrastructure and projects committed virtual suicide and took all of it with him
16:40	bartj	I thought there were copies on github
16:40	KirinDave	no
16:40	MenTaLguY	we managed to rescue a lot of it
16:40	KirinDave	not for redhanded
16:40	MenTaLguY	but, not of everything
16:40	codemonsta	ah
16:40	MenTaLguY	so it does seem that the wayback machine has redhanded archives
16:41	codemonsta	well, I was a bout to excoriate all of you for not having a back up of the repository, but a blog is a different matter
16:41	MenTaLguY	though unfortunately the wayback machine is pretty unreliable these days
16:41	MenTaLguY	I can't actually seem to get to the paages
16:42	codemonsta	seems to me though that clojure has best solved the general concurrency problem
16:43	onkara	hi guys I am using the CCW for eclipse and trying to create a clojure file in an existing java project and I keep getting this error "Cannot create Clojure file outside a java source folder"
16:43	codemonsta	what other language comes close to this?
16:43	onkara	though if I do that in a brand new project everything works fine
16:44	MenTaLguY	erlang, probably
16:44	MenTaLguY	not sure it's such a great language otherwise, but it does manage concurrency pretty well
16:45	codemonsta	ah, ya, actors
16:45	codemonsta	i prefer clojure's agents tho
16:45	codemonsta	doesn't scala have some concurrency semantics?
16:46	onkara	scala has erlang style actors
16:46	codemonsta	ah, ok
16:46	onkara	not sure if it has STM
16:46	codemonsta	STM FTW
16:47	codemonsta	well, cheap STM, anyways
16:49	bartj	I almost always use reduce where apply would suffice - I think
16:49	bartj	, (reduce str [\a \b \c \d \e])
16:49	clojurebot	"abcde"
16:49	MenTaLguY	STM isn't actually a good solution in most cases
16:49	bartj	, (apply str [\a \b \c \d \e])
16:49	clojurebot	"abcde"
16:49	bartj	is this frowned upon?
16:49	MenTaLguY	in that specific instance apply makes more sense
16:50	MenTaLguY	and is most likely more efficient
16:50	MenTaLguY	since you're (theoretically) not creating a bunch of intermediate string objects
16:50	bartj	is there some mental distinction I can make in this regard?
16:50	MenTaLguY	sure
16:50	MenTaLguY	in the case of apply, you're just calling str with five arguments
16:50	MenTaLguY	in the case of reduce, you're calling str four times
16:51	MenTaLguY	(str (str (str (str \a \b) \c) \d) \e)
16:51	bartj	MenTalguY: ok...got it
16:51	MenTaLguY	versus (str \a \b \c \d \e) for apply
16:51	Borkdude	,(dotrace [str] (reduce str [\a \b \c \d \e]))
16:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: dotrace in this context
16:51	bartj	yeah, when you put it that way - it looks pretty bad
16:51	Borkdude	$(dotrace [str] (reduce str [\a \b \c \d \e]))
16:51	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: dotrace in this context
16:53	onkara	MenTaLguY: in what cases does STM makes most sense ?
16:53	MenTaLguY	when transactions are small and local
16:54	onkara	so how does one handle distributed transactions
16:54	Borkdude	,(clojure.contrib.trace/dotrace [str] (reduce str [\a \b \c \d \e]))
16:54	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.trace
16:54	onkara	through Agents ?
16:54	Borkdude	$(clojure.contrib.trace/dotrace [str] (reduce str [\a \b \c \d \e]))
16:54	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.trace
16:54	Borkdude	hmm...
16:54	MenTaLguY	transactions and distribution are kind of inimical
16:54	Borkdude	actually in my REPL, this causes a StackOverflow.. wondering why
16:54	MenTaLguY	there are such things as distributed transaction managers, but they tend to be bottlenecks
16:56	onkara	yup agreed but then how does clojure handle distributed trasactions
16:56	MenTaLguY	it doesn't, nor do the clojure standard libraries
16:56	MenTaLguY	you're better off with message-passing for distributed stuff
16:57	onkara	MenTaLguY: thats the agent or reactor pattern ... right ?
16:57	MenTaLguY	well, I was thinking really distributed
16:57	MenTaLguY	zeromq or something
16:57	MenTaLguY	(I forget if that has clojure bindings)
16:58	MenTaLguY	actor/reactor pattern I guess
16:58	MenTaLguY	agents are more about mobile data in a way
16:58	MenTaLguY	with agents, you take the code to the data
16:58	MenTaLguY	with actors etc. you take the data to the code
16:58	MenTaLguY	er
16:58	KirinDave	hum
16:58	MenTaLguY	agents are more about mobile code in a way, sorry
16:59	KirinDave	Agents is a heavily loaded term in this space.
16:59	MenTaLguY	this is true
16:59	KirinDave	For example, when you say agents to me I think of systems like "aglets"
16:59	MenTaLguY	I'm thinking of agents in terms of what Clojure agents are specifically
16:59	KirinDave	Which were the very soul of code going to data.
16:59	MenTaLguY	yeah
16:59	MenTaLguY	that kind of thing also
17:00	MenTaLguY	I guess also things like the big implementations of MapReduce
17:00	MenTaLguY	in those cases you're basically farming out your map/reduce functions to where the data lives
17:01	MenTaLguY	the essential thing, though, is that if you want concurrency/parallelism, you have to farm things out to multiple physical places
17:01	MenTaLguY	whether multiple cores or nodes on a network or whatever
17:02	MenTaLguY	you can try to maintain the illusion of shared local storage (which is what STM tries to accomplish), but it breaks down after a while and you have to explicitly acknowledge the physical distance in practice
17:03	MenTaLguY	I think I'd go so far to say that STM simply doesn't scale unless you can find clever ways to partition the system (whether explicitly or implicitly)
17:04	MenTaLguY	which becomes harder the larger/less local your transactions are
17:08	onkara	MenTaLguY: I think you should blog about these limitations of STM ... and may be things will be improved upon ... FYI for the biggest selling point apart from functional and dynamic language that clj is was STM ...
17:09	onkara	i mean limitation of clj's implementation of STM
17:09	MenTaLguY	it's not a question of improving STM, it's kind of a physical laws of the universe thing
17:09	MenTaLguY	Clojure has one of the best STM implementations I've ever seen
17:10	MenTaLguY	but STM just isn't a suitable programming model for distributed computing
17:10	onkara	well i am just starting with clojure .... so I only understand things theoretically
17:11	MenTaLguY	there are places where STM is useful, for the record
17:11	KirinDave	Right, it's usefull as an underlying mechanism.
17:11	KirinDave	But as an actual solution, it's really not applicable.
17:11	MenTaLguY	pretty much
17:12	MenTaLguY	I still tend not to like it because it's hard to predict the performance characteristics under load, though Clojure again does a much better job than most any other mainstream STM implementation I've seen
17:13	MenTaLguY	I probably really should blog about this
17:20	onkara	hi guys since I am new to clojure (getting started) with CCW/Eclipse ... after trying the hello world example I want to try clojure.contrib.logging ... what jar do I need to (down)load to make that work
17:21	dnolen	onkara: the contrib jar
17:21	dnolen	if you have it just make sure it's on your classpath
17:22	onkara	dnolen: its in my classpath and this is what I am trying http://gist.github.com/425960
17:22	onkara	but I get error java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/logging__init.class or clojure/contrib/logging.clj on classpath:
17:23	dnolen	onkara:how are you starting clojure?
17:23	onkara	dnolen: what do you mean ?
17:23	onkara	you meant running the code ?
17:24	dnolen	oh yeah, sorry you're using CCW, then contrib hasn't been properly added to the classpath, or perhaps you need to restart the CCW repl (I don't use CCW so I can't say)
17:25	onkara	the clojure-contrib.jar that CCW has doesn't have logging.clj
17:26	dnolen	just get a more recent one and add the jar to your project, I would think.
17:26	onkara	dnolen: thanx will try that
17:27	TimMc	I'm having trouble getting CCW and leiningen to play well together.
17:27	TimMc	Specifically, regarding libs.
17:29	TimMc	`lein deps` puts all manner of jar files into ./lib... how do I get CCW or Eclipse to put those on the classpath?
17:31	TimMc	Urgh, never mind... this is just CCW getting itself into a bad state.
17:31	TimMc	Project -> Clean fixed it.
17:31	TimMc	(CCW was failing to see the jars, even though ./lib was on the build path as a class folder)
17:38	digash	does anybody knows why Numbers.java have no primitive implementations for short?
17:39	digash	and byte too?
17:40	TimMc	Anyone here use Eclipse + CCW?
17:40	TimMc	I'm having trouble figuring out how to invoke Clojure properly.
17:41	korre	invoke?
17:41	clojurebot	() invokes the form inside, but there is an implied str call. The semantics are different inside the interpolated string, necessarily so.
17:41	TimMc	I guess there are a couple of different use-cases.
17:42	TimMc	1) I want to run my core.clj file, which launches a ring server.
17:42	TimMc	2) I'd like a REPL that loads all the definitions from an open .clj file so that I can do some interactive programming.
17:43	onkara	hi guys I am trying a very simple logging excercise http://gist.github.com/425960 first of all I am getting this error "java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword"
17:43	korre	it excecutes the file every time you save i think
17:43	onkara	and second how can I ensure that I am using log4j and not java.logging
17:43	TimMc	Currently I'm getting weird errors, so I'm not sure if it's a classpath issue or a code issue. :-/
17:44	korre	onkara: you whant an iseq from the name of the keyword?
17:44	korre	as in (seq (name some-key-word))
17:45	onkara	korre: please bear with me I am very new to the whole clojure thing ... could you gist me an example so that I can better understand you ?
17:46	korre	so if you hawe the keyword :something and you whant a seq of the characters like (\s \o \m \e .......)
17:46	korre	is it a seq of the name you are after?
17:47	onkara	not really I am not after Seq of the name parameter
17:47	korre	o wait sorry Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword" is from the exception :D
17:48	onkara	this is a very simple code I am just trying to test the integration of logging (may be log4j) in clojure
17:48	korre	so you are passing the keyword to something expecting a seq
17:49	onkara	korre: never mind that ... i am now getting a different error http://gist.github.com/425960 on line 9
17:50	onkara	an exception is being thrown
17:50	onkara	in the function
17:52	onkara	seems that code is failing on the string concatenation
17:52	korre	(log/warn "params = " name)
17:52	onkara	yeah ... can't make out whats wrong with that ?
17:52	korre	you are intending to write (log/warn (str "params = " name)) i gess
17:53	onkara	ah
17:53	korre	name will be the second parameter to logg otherwize and it expects a throwable
17:53	onkara	interesting though that (println "something" "here") works fine
17:53	onkara	perhaps its doing (str "something" "here") internally
17:54	korre	println also adds spaces
17:54	korre	,(println "hej" "world")
17:54	clojurebot	hej world
17:55	onkara	yes it does
17:56	onkara	how do I configure contrib-logging to use log4j
17:56	onkara	or rather how do I find which logging system it is using ?
17:57	korre	im nott a java land guru :p
17:57	korre	you can check the source code on github
17:57	onkara	you from the lisp world ?
17:57	korre	.net
17:57	onkara	ah
17:57	onkara	close
17:58	onkara	BTW how does clojure perform on .net
17:58	onkara	?
18:05	korre	seams it uses the first login system it can find
18:06	korre	org.apache.commons.logging first then org.apache.log4j and last java.util.logging witch is the implementation i seam to get in my repl
18:09	riddochc	Best feature of clojure: Bringing Lisp to Java. Worst feature: Java. ;)
18:09	korre	allot of thinking is being put to fight with java api's :p
18:16	mmarczyk	riddochc: lol :-)
18:27	riddochc	I've been reading through SICP again. It seems very math-centric rather than programming-centric. I definitely understand why HTDP was written to substitute for it...
18:32	Borkdude	riddochc: same problem with Project Euler maybe
18:34	Borkdude	gtg
18:35	mmarczyk	riddochc: I don't agree at all
18:37	mmarczyk	not that SICP doesn't have it's cool math examples, but they always enter the stage so that a programming-related concept may be illustrated in an interesting setting
18:37	riddochc	mmarczyk: No? I'm not having difficulty with the math, but I think it makes it harder to focus on the programming problems.
18:37	mmarczyk	I actually find it easier to focus when there's something remotely interesting going on
18:38	mmarczyk	HtDP seems "reasonable" to me, considered in abstracto, but but when I actually tried reading it -- after SICP -- I just couldn't maintain my interest
18:38	mmarczyk	mostly because there was really no challenge
18:39	riddochc	Well, SICP is definitely more challenging.
18:39	mmarczyk	"take exactly these ingredients and put them together in precisely the following way" -- the challenge is not to yawn
18:40	mmarczyk	I don't know what happens in the later chapters, though, since I never managed to get to them... I suppose I could skip around, but by the time I was considering doing so, I'd decided to move on to another book
18:40	mmarczyk	that's about HtDP, of course
18:41	mmarczyk	all that despite my great admiration for the work of the PLT group
18:44	riddochc	Yeah, I'm pretty impressed with PLT.
18:57	arrummzen	Is Clojure a language people typically develop with an IDE (Like Java) or one people typically develop with an editor (Like Python)?
18:59	lancepantz	a majority use emacs
18:59	tomoj	that's surprising
19:01	arrummzen	hehe, I specifically formed my question to avoid the emacs vs. vim/eclipse vs. netbeans issue.
19:01	dnolen	arrummzen: both
19:10	TimMc	http://clojars.org/search?q=clojureql <-- how am I supposed to know which one I want?
19:11	TimMc	There's a [clojureql 0.9.7] pushed by laujensen... but also some 1.0.0 entries.
19:20	technomancy	TimMc: the one without the "org.*" qualifier is the canonical one
21:39	defn	arrummzen: it's really all about what you want to do, how you like to work
21:40	defn	arrummzen: lots of people are using plugins for IDEs like netbeans, lots of people like emacs + slime + paredit, some people prefer vimclojure and nailgun, etc etc
21:40	defn	arrummzen: i use emacs, but emacs is certainly not the "best" option -- it's just the one I happen to prefer
21:45	Raynes	arrummzen: I did a poll a while back. It showed that a large majority of people use Emacs and SLIME. Coming in second was Vim and VimClojure, followed by the various IDEs. Just some statistics. I use Emacs.
21:46	Raynes	There is no reason you shouldn't necessarily use an IDE if that's what you're comfortable with.
21:47	defn	IDE development is slow in general I think -- There might be a time in the future where I reconsider and choose a full IDE, but for the moment Emacs + paredit + slime has been good to me
21:48	tomoj	who do you think is more likely to answer a poll about editors, an emacs or vim user, or an IDE user? :)
21:49	Raynes	defn: I doubt that. Once you go Emacs, you never go back.
21:49	defn	tomoj: heh, touche
21:49	Raynes	tomoj: Don't hate on my statistics.
21:49	defn	Raynes: nah, I think that's a naive answer
21:49	Raynes	:p
21:49	defn	if we had a really incredibly refactoring code browser/IDE tailored for clojure, I bet people would switch
21:49	defn	incredible*
21:50	mabes	lol... tomoj has a point, any editor poll will be a biased sampling when left to people to volunteer
21:50	defn	there's always something better 'round the corner
21:50	arrummzen	I actually used emacs for coding for a long time.
21:50	Raynes	defn: I seriously, seriously doubt that. You're welcome to fantasize though. <3
21:50	arrummzen	But I switched to Eclipse for Java development because it did so much refactoring/code fixing for me.
21:50	mabes	I know my team would easily pay a could hundred dollars a seat for a really, really nice IDE for clojure..
21:51	mabes	er.. a couple
21:51	Raynes	defn: However, the "Once you go Emacs, you never go back." remark was just a joke.
21:52	Raynes	I use Emacs for everything. A new editor geared toward Clojure, however incredible, wouldn't get my attention. I know at least a few Emacsers who would probably agree.
21:53	defn	Raynes: either way I think it is smart to not be so sure about this particular issue (IDEs) -- I can see a plethora of reasons why one might switch
21:53	defn	Raynes: I'm an Emacser, but I might do my clojure development in a different IDE if it was better than Emacs -- I'd be a fool not to
21:53	defn	It's not inconceivable that something better could come along
21:54	Raynes	If you're familiar and comfortable with Emacs, there aren't too many reasons one would switch. You have a powerful editor that can do virtually anything you want it to.
21:55	Raynes	You're talking about an editor for Clojure. If a new fangled editor came along that was as awesome as Emacs (that includes being extensible and useful for other languages), of course I'd like inclined to switch to it.
21:55	Raynes	But I'm not going to leave my comfort zone for a new Clojure specific IDE just because. I'm productive enough in Emacs to not want to go that route.
21:55	Raynes	But that's just me.
21:55	Raynes	Let's not turn this into an argument. :p
21:55	Raynes	<3
21:57	Raynes	:D
21:59	lancepantz	what is that editing the definition of?
21:59	lancepantz	(emacs newbie here)
21:59	tomoj	M-. will even reach inside jars
21:59	Raynes	lancepantz: Yes. It jerks you to the definition of something.
21:59	Raynes	I couldn't find a function a minute ago.
22:00	Raynes	So SLIME found it for me.
22:00	Raynes	:D
22:00	tomoj	e.g. M-. on defn brings you to core.clj
22:00	lancepantz	oh, wow
22:00	lancepantz	that' is awesome
22:01	lancepantz	what is the chord that shows you a function's signature in the minibuffer?
22:05	tomoj	space :(
22:06	lancepantz	heh, correct sir
22:09	tomoj	it looks like slime-echo-arglist will just show it without inserting a space
22:09	tomoj	but it's not interactive and not bound
22:09	lancepantz	i see
22:10	lancepantz	it seems to just work for core functions?
22:10	tomoj	no, it should work for any functions that are available in the namespace you're in
22:11	lancepantz	does not for me
22:12	codemonsta	what's the best clojure ide for a visual studio user?
22:12	tomoj	you mean, if you do (defn foo [bar & baz]) at the repl, and then type '(foo ', you don't see '([bar & baz])' ?
22:14	tomoj	I'm using clojure-mode 1.6
22:14	lancepantz	i do at the repl, but if i have a buffer open that uses clojure.test, if i type '(deftest ' i don't see [name & body]
22:15	tomoj	is your repl in the same namespace as the buffer?
22:16	tomoj	I imagine it is based on where the repl is, not the buffer
22:16	lancepantz	i meant when i type in the buffer
22:16	lancepantz	it does work in the repl if i use the ns
22:17	tomoj	I know
22:17	tomoj	I'm asking if, while you're typing in the buffer, the repl is in the buffer's ns
22:17	lancepantz	no
22:18	tomoj	hmm, actually, that doesn't seem to matter, at least in 1.6
22:18	tomoj	have you compiled the functions you're testing with?
22:18	tomoj	oh, deftest. well, have you compiled the buffer?
22:19	lancepantz	ah, bingo
22:19	tomoj	it talks to clojure to figure these things out instead of doing some deep analysis of the source code
22:19	lancepantz	i see
22:21	tomoj	I want a function that automatically cleans up my ns declaration
22:21	lancepantz	yeah, that would be awesome
22:22	lancepantz	i'd like to be able to move the files in the dir structure and have the ns declarations fixed
22:22	tomoj	it's a pain to remove things, because they will still be around
22:23	tomoj	and you won't find out you removed something you shouldn't have till your next session :(
22:24	defn	@ Raynes, lancepantz : M-, returns you to your previous position after M-.ing on something
22:25	defn	fwiw
22:25	Raynes	Cool.
22:25	lancepantz	yeah
22:26	tomoj	didn't know that, thanks
22:26	tomoj	and it's a stack, nice
22:26	tomoj	chase something down the rabbit hole and come right back out with a few keystrokes :)
22:27	lancepantz	that will save me so much time
22:27	lancepantz	usually i keep a browser open to the api docs
22:27	tomoj	what other nifty tricks are there? C-c C-m is one
22:28	tomoj	I feel like there must be some I haven't discovered yet
22:28	defn	what is C-c C-m
22:29	tomoj	macroexpand the form at point in a separate buffer which goes away with 'q'
22:29	tomoj	strangely the macroexpansions I see there are uglier now than they used to me
22:29	tomoj	be
22:30	defn	cool
22:30	defn	im not sure how ill use that
22:31	defn	i still couldnt write a macro to save my life :\
22:31	lancepantz	while we're at it, if i enable clojure-mode in my repl, it insert's \n instead of \r when i press enter
22:31	defn	oh man -- using paredit and proper clojure-mode in slime is a weird problem IIRC
22:31	tomoj	in my experience it's bad to mess with the repl mode
22:32	defn	paredit alone is a pain
22:32	lancepantz	yeah, paredit acts differently too
22:32	defn	you need to explicitly define certain bindings and tell the repl what a { is, etc.
22:33	defn	C-c M-p is kind of a handy one FWIW
22:33	defn	do it in a file where you have eval'd the ns declaration
22:33	tomoj	also available as ,i when at the repl
22:33	defn	(ns foo.core)\| C-x C-e, C-c M-p
22:33	defn	whoa..cool
22:34	defn	what else can you do with ,*
22:34	tomoj	defn: ,h for example :)
22:37	tomoj	never tried +p and -p before, cool
22:40	codemonsta	I'm going to invent the next mainstream programming language
22:40	codemonsta	it will use MOP
22:40	codemonsta	'Mort-Oriented Programming'
22:40	codemonsta	it will make stupid things easy and smart things impossible
22:41	lancepantz	oh, like lein
22:41	lancepantz	sorry, sorry
22:41	codemonsta	hehe
22:41	defn	cool
22:41	defn	God I need a new project to be excited about
22:42	codemonsta	make an opengl game in clojure
22:42	defn	i dont like games
22:42	lancepantz	i like walton
22:42	defn	no desire to learn opengl
22:42	lancepantz	stay excited about it :)
22:43	defn	lancepantz: yeah i want to be, but it's all a mess and I want to redo it, but I keep getting stuck
22:43	lancepantz	know how ya feel
22:44	defn	the other thing is im sort of upset with the lack of options for doing web applications in clojure -- so ive been looking at integrating jruby + rails with ring and clojure
22:44	defn	i want to decouple the client-side part of walton from the server-side stuff
22:45	defn	and ive never built anything like that before and am kind of clueless as to where to start
22:45	defn	i want people to be able to query my server and get example data
22:45	defn	from the client-side
22:45	defn	people mentioned JSON, but again, just don't know where to start with building that functionality
22:45	tomoj	I guess the C-c C-d family is worth mentioning as well
22:45	lancepantz	yeah, i use compojure just to serve an http api
22:45	lancepantz	our front end is rails
22:46	defn	yeah you mentioned some code a week ago
22:46	defn	anything go online yet?
22:46	defn	<-cheater
22:46	lancepantz	tuesday is the big release
22:46	defn	I am scared of compojure due to lack of docs and would love to see how you do things
22:46	tomoj	moustache+ring+some json lib
22:46	defn	in fact, I'd like to give a talk about it at our local ruby group if you'd be okay with it
22:47	lancepantz	yeah ofcourse
22:47	defn	although i need to be careful
22:47	defn	i think the ruby guys are a little annoyed by my FP nazi tendencies
22:48	lancepantz	hahah
22:49	tomoj	my coworkers get annoyed too. luckily my boss is on my side :)
22:49	lancepantz	we're split
22:49	lancepantz	which is great, because i don't want to mess with the ruby stuff, and they don't want to mess with the clojure stuff
22:53	tomoj	why don't I ever use C-c C-d C-d ? :(
22:56	tomoj	I wonder how slime-who-calls and friends are implemented for CL
23:12	defn	some of them are very interested in doing FP in Ruby -- as much as they can anyway
23:12	defn	i feel that others find that it's just too arcane for them or something
23:12	defn	i sympathize with them because it took me a good 4 months to even understand how to think functionally
23:13	defn	i looked for definitions of FP and of course found all sorts of crazy ideas on what FP is truly
23:13	defn	i think the whole "no side effects" thing is totally misunderstood at first by a lot of OOP programmers
23:14	defn	one gets the sense that a lot of programmers dont even realize how many things they're mutating
23:17	ihodes	absolutely agree. i didn't get what FP was until I started doing it, and realizing how awesome it was. eventually found out that people call what I was doing "FP"...