#clojure – 2010-04-23

2010-04-23

00:04	livingston	slyphon: you get your code working?
00:22	mmarczyk	livingston: that's a really cool project you were describing earlier
00:22	mmarczyk	can't wait to see it :-)
00:23	livingston	thanks
00:24	livingston	well it's a lot of open problems in AI combined, so there won't be a "done" for a long time, but the research will go on for a long while
00:25	mmarczyk	I'm inclined to consider this a good side of the endeavour :-)
00:25	livingston	(we have postdoc slots open if you know of anyone looking)
00:26	mmarczyk	where at?
00:26	livingston	UC Denver - CCP (center for computational pharmacology)
00:27	livingston	Anyone here ever worked with Jena? (or RDF anything for that matter)
01:34	livingston	isn't equals: "content equals" and ==: "pointer equals" (or identity or whatever you want to call it)
01:35	livingston	disregard that, wrong channel
02:29	zkim	Does anybody have an opinion on whether it's better to return an empty list, or nil?
02:29	zkim	i.e. {:results nil} vs {:results ()}
02:29	carkh	hum let it return what it would normally return
02:30	zkim	carkh: well if it was up to you, what would you do?
02:30	carkh	looks like that's a choice i never have to do
02:31	carkh	my guess is that you're doing something wrong if you're asking that question
02:31	carkh	what's the context ?
02:32	zkim	ProcessBuilder stuff, basically I'm running a process and collecting the stdout and stderrs into a map:
02:32	zkim	for example: la -aul
02:33	carkh	anyways when you're processing the result, being a list or nil doesn't change a thing
02:33	zkim	would return {:out ("drwxr-xr-x+ 108 zkim staff 3672 Apr 23 00:32 .") :err ("")}
02:33	zkim	so I'm thinking of turning that empty err result into either an empty list, or nil
02:33	carkh	allright, and how are you getting that list ? (out)
02:33	zkim	reading it from the Process output stream
02:34	carkh	and it might return several lines ?
02:34	zkim	yeah, which I would turn into a list of strings
02:34	carkh	what function are you using to turn it into a list ?
02:34	zkim	String.split
02:35	zkim	(seq (.split (:out res) "\n"))
02:35	carkh	,(seq (.split "" "\n"))
02:35	clojurebot	("")
02:36	zkim	so that gives '("") on an empty string
02:37	carkh	,(clojure.contrib.string/partition #"\n" "")
02:37	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.string
02:38	carkh	,(require 'clojure.contrib.string)
02:38	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/string__init.class or clojure/contrib/string.clj on classpath:
02:38	carkh	,(require 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)
02:38	clojurebot	nil
02:38	carkh	ah looks like clojurebot is not on latest +P
02:38	zkim	hehe yeah
02:39	zkim	guess I'm not either, getting classnotfound on c.c.string
02:39	carkh	me neither, and now the doc is not available =/
02:40	carkh	ah got it, anyways same result
02:40	carkh	maybe we want to filter empty strings
02:40	zkim	so that would give an empty seq, correct?
02:41	zkim	,(filter (fn [] false) ["hello" "world"])
02:41	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--11080$fn
02:41	carkh	(filter #(not (.isEmpty %)) (seq (.split "" "\n")))
02:41	carkh	,(filter #(not (.isEmpty %)) (seq (.split "" "\n")))
02:41	clojurebot	()
02:42	zkim	cool
02:42	carkh	looks like en empty list is the natural way !
02:42	zkim	guess I'll go with empty list
02:42	zkim	thanks for the help carkh
02:42	carkh	anyways when you want to process it, you'll "seq" it
02:42	carkh	do i have errors ? (seq errors)
02:42	zkim	yeah, that makes sense
02:43	zkim	Nobody seems to be talking about nil handling in the community, but I'm pretty new to clojure, so maybe it's just a non issue
02:44	carkh	hum but it might be a bad idea to make a list out of your error output to begin with
02:44	zkim	feels more clojureish, instead of a block of text with newlines
02:44	carkh	if you have some error output, you're interested in the full output as a block, not in individual lines
02:45	mmarczyk	actually there is a pretty significant difference between () and nil
02:45	mmarczyk	in that the former is true in Boolean contexts
02:46	carkh	yes there is, that's why you always want to seq what could be a list
02:46	mmarczyk	also, ({:foo :bar} :quux) returns nil
02:46	zkim	hmm
02:47	zkim	I guess I could see the use case for checking for :err output by doing a (if (:err res) (do-stuff))
02:47	mmarczyk	occasionally it might be useful to do, say, (if-let [val (my-map key)] ...)
02:48	mmarczyk	you can't do that when nil is a possible value, you'd have to use find instead
02:48	carkh	zkim: how about having a function that does that check ? it's good practice
02:48	mmarczyk	(or a default return value, if you can guarantee that it in turn will not be present in the map)
02:48	zkim	carkh: yeah, good point
02:48	mmarczyk	in this case, though, when you're holding sequences of errors (or whatever)
02:49	carkh	(defn result-has-errors? [result] (boolean (seq (:err res))))
02:49	mmarczyk	and those sequences are strict anyway, since they were evaluated before being stuffed into the map
02:49	zkim	mmarczyk: wait, i think you just lost me, so the if-let would only work if the check was against an empty list?
02:49	mmarczyk	(finishing the last sentence) I'd use nil
02:50	mmarczyk	(answering that last question) yes
02:50	mmarczyk	(if-let [v nil] ...) always takes the false branch
02:50	mmarczyk	regardless of whether the nil came from not finding a value in a map or finding a nil value
02:50	carkh	,(get {:foo :bar} :quux :not-found)
02:50	clojurebot	:not-found
02:50	zkim	ah
02:51	mmarczyk	carkh: as I said, that's ok if you know for sure that :not-found is not a possible value :-)
02:51	carkh	well you should know what's in your maps =P
02:51	mmarczyk	true
02:52	mmarczyk	I'd add to that that you should know why you're putting nils in your maps, if and when you do
02:52	carkh	if :not-found can be in it, just put something else
02:52	mmarczyk	like nil :-)
02:52	carkh	i think it's bad practice to use nil as a value
02:53	zkim	so a good rule of thumb is empty seq's the default, and nil's the exception?
02:53	carkh	i mean, i never have to put a nil in a map
02:54	zkim	carkh: yeah, and I guess the thing that's bugging me is that I'm worried that an aversion to nil's a bad hold-over habit from java
02:54	zkim	actually, it's mainly a lack of info, nobody's talking about it and I'm not experienced enough with clojure to drawn my own conclusions
02:55	carkh	i think your problem comes from making a list out of something that shouldn't be one
02:55	carkh	and i actually would put a nil there
02:55	carkh	either you have an error or it is empty
02:56	zkim	empty as in nil
02:56	carkh	see that's an implementation detail you shouldn't have to worry about outside your return value building function
02:56	carkh	do it one way or the other
02:57	mmarczyk	well, for this particular case you could just do something like
02:57	carkh	but close to that building function, have an has-error? predicate
02:57	mmarczyk	(zipmap [:in :out :err] (map line-seq [process-in process-out process-err]))
02:57	zkim	,(doc zipmap)
02:57	clojurebot	"([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
02:57	mmarczyk	that would give you empty seqs for values in the map and you'd call seq when dealing with them
02:58	mmarczyk	or you could (remove empty? (map line-seq ...))
02:58	mmarczyk	and I think there's a blank? function in clojure.contrib.string (used to be called c.c.str-utils)
02:59	zkim	yeah, so for now I think I'm going to go with the empty seq, since that seems to be what line-seq would return, and make a has-error? function to deal with checking for errors
02:59	zkim	thank you both for your help
03:00	mmarczyk	(if-let [errs (seq (:err your-map))] (had-errors ...) (no-errors ...)) is a possibility too
03:00	zkim	,(doc if-let)
03:00	clojurebot	"([bindings then] [bindings then else & oldform]); bindings => binding-form test If test is true, evaluates then with binding-form bound to the value of test, if not, yields else"
03:00	mmarczyk	since seq will force enough of your sequence to determine whether it is empty or not
03:00	mmarczyk	returning nil if it is
03:01	mmarczyk	note binding-form can use destructuring safely
03:01	zkim	man, I think if-let's above my pay grade right now
03:02	mmarczyk	you'll get used to it upon using it for the first time :-)
03:02	zkim	hehe
03:34	cYmen	I have a question about leiningen..sort of
03:34	cYmen	I want this http://clojars.org/overtone/vimclojure
03:34	sexpbot	"vimclojure \| Clojars"
03:34	cYmen	but I don't get what it has to do with leiningen I thought that was a build tool
03:35	mikem	if you add that to your dev-dependencies, it will be placed into your lib/ directory. then you don't have to add its location elsewhere on your system to the nailgun classpath
03:36	mikem	cYmen: ^ that's for you :)
03:37	cYmen	aha...so basically I'm changing the project to suite the editor...that seems wrong
03:37	cYmen	but I don't want to bitch about things I don't half understand so sorry
03:37	cYmen	Can you instead tell me how to use it? :)
03:37	mikem	it's a development dependency, but you're right, if someone else who uses emacs runs `lein deps` they'll also pull down vimclojure
03:38	mikem	cYmen: I'll refer you to this blog post: http://www.deepbluelambda.org/programming/clojure/programming-clojure-with-vim
03:38	sexpbot	" Programming Clojure with Vim : Deep Blue Lambda"
03:41	cYmen	mikem: Thanks!
03:49	zmila	sexpbot
03:52	Licenser_	morning
03:57	LauJensen	Morning all
04:07	Licenser_	morning
04:14	LauJensen	mmmm coffee
04:17	Licenser_	mmm tea!
04:25	LauJensen	Are there any websites that ship some really excellent tea internationally?
04:28	uberjar	http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_gold.html
04:28	sexpbot	"Yunnan Gold Tea"
04:33	LauJensen	Thanks - I'll give it a shot
05:03	hircus	uberjar: ooh, they have several smoky teas, not only Lapsang Souchong! thanks for the link (a bit dubious about their claim that Lapsang is the same as Russian Caravan though).
05:12	Licenser_	LauJensen: hmm hmm
05:13	Licenser_	LauJensen: I buy my tea at https://www.tee-direkt.com/
05:13	sexpbot	"Document Moved"
05:14	Licenser_	but I'm not sure if they ship internationally
05:15	LauJensen	I could probably find the same on a danish site then, since we're so close. I dont
05:16	LauJensen	know anything about tea, except almost everything I've tasted I disliked, except Silver Pearl Jasmin and something called 'London' which I drank while I was in London and extremely thirsty, so I might have been tricked by my senses :)
05:23	Licenser_	LauJensen: I right now drink Dragon Pearl, it's a very nice green tea with jasmin
05:37	zmila	... changed topic to clojure tea or tea clojure
05:44	Licenser_	Clojure, the Language, the Tea, the live.
05:46	Borkdude	I prefer coffee, but when it comes to tea I like Minty Morocco, no I idea if something like it is available abroad: http://www.pickwick.nl/MintyMorocco.aspx
05:46	sexpbot	" Pickwick NL \| Assortiment \| Variatie \| Minty Morocco"
05:46	LauJensen	Borkdude: I'm 99% a coffee guy, but I have a hunch that tea might be healtier and caffeine does yield addiction
05:47	hircus	LauJensen: teaism.com is quite good too -- they run some really interesting fusion tea rooms in Washington DC. Only place so far I've seen that sells French verbena
05:48	Borkdude	LauJensen, I agree, I'm also aware of the addiction... time for my third cup of home brewn espresso now ;-)
05:48	hircus	scratch that. does not ship overseas
05:48	LauJensen	Traveling to the US might be a bit extreme for a cup of tea, but if its that good I'm open to it :)
05:48	Chousuke	tea has caffeine too though.
05:48	LauJensen	Chousuke: Not all teas, and not in a comparable measure as far as I understood
05:49	Chousuke	http://coffeetea.about.com/library/blcaffeine.htm is what I found via quick googling
05:49	sexpbot	"Caffeine Content of Coffee, Tea, Chocolate"
05:50	LauJensen	white tea is a keeper :)
05:50	Chousuke	I usually drink black tea or coffee... all without any sugar or milk :P
05:50	Borkdude	I try to avoid coffee after 7 PM
05:50	LauJensen	Cow milk is poison anyway, far beyond caffeine :)
05:51	Borkdude	then I drink tea instead
05:52	Borkdude	LauJensen, you are from Denmark right?
05:52	LauJensen	yea
05:52	Chousuke	when I was a teenager I used to put three teaspoons of sugar in a cup of coffee. :P Now the mere thought of drinking such stuff causes a gag reflex
05:53	Borkdude	There is a group from Denmark having kind of a hit here in the Netherlands, Alphabeat, it just came by on the radio hehe
05:54	LauJensen	Ah ok - I dont follow contempory music, or music in general :)
05:54	LauJensen	(or soccer)
05:55	esj	i figure, more foam in cup implies less coffee
05:57	hircus	LauJensen: don't follow soccer much either, and thankfully I've always lived in a city with a lousy local team :)
05:57	LauJensen	2) gen-class can add methods, proxy cannot
05:57	Borkdude	esj, we call café latte koffie verkeerd (coffee wrong, literally) here
05:58	LauJensen	and modify constructors
05:58	bsteuber	LauJensen: ah, ok
05:58	LauJensen	~source proxy
05:58	Chousuke	bsteuber: proxy methods just dispatch to clojure functions
05:58	esj	verkeerd is die verkeerde woord
05:58	Chousuke	bsteuber: so that they can be dynamically updated
05:58	esj	;P
05:58	LauJensen	and I think re 1) that proxy returns fns, not a literal method - though I dont want to be asked about the difference :)
05:59	Borkdude	~source slurp
05:59	Chousuke	all proxies of a single class are instances of the same proxy class.
06:00	Borkdude	unable to find...
06:00	Chousuke	they just have a different function map
06:00	bsteuber	Chousuke: but gen-class methods can ba altered as well, can't they?
06:01	bsteuber	*be
06:01	Chousuke	bsteuber: I think so yes. they dispatch to clojure functions too
06:02	bsteuber	ah, guess I just confused topics - was reading 'bout proxy's differences with reify, not gen-class :)
06:02	Chousuke	so I guess I should say that the methods themselves don't change, they just call a clojure function that can change
06:03	bsteuber	mhmm, that makes sense to me - thx to both of you :)
06:04	LauJensen	Chousuke: Thats right, also how the dynamic capabilities were achieved
06:04	esj	is there simpler way to wrap a value as a function than (fn [x] value). I often do this in (update-in my-map [my-key] (fn[x] new-value).
06:04	esj	i tried #(new-value) but it complains about arity
06:06	Chousuke	(constantly x)
06:07	Borkdude	esj, you can leave out the x in [x]
06:07	esj	superb, thanks gents.
06:07	Chousuke	no, update-in requires a function of one argument
06:07	Borkdude	really, ok..
06:07	Chousuke	but there's also assoc-in :)
06:08	Borkdude	constantly is a nice thing
06:08	esj	doh
06:11	LauJensen	(btw, Ubuntu 10.04 beta is nice)
06:15	bsteuber	how would I mutate fields in deftype? not that I hope I'll ever want to :)
06:26	bsteuber	nevermind - should just read the docs :(
06:29	cemerick	wow, those new keyword args are sooooo nice.
06:31	Borkdude	cemerick, what are those?
06:31	cemerick	,clojure-version
06:31	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
06:32	cemerick	Borkdude: clojurebot's not using 1.2, but if you are, you can specify keyword args using: (fn [a b c & {:keys [d e f]}] [a b c d e f])
06:33	bsteuber	what's wrong here? (hope 3 lines are ok to paste directly..)
06:33	bsteuber	(deftype Bar [#^{:unsynchronized-mutable true} a b c])
06:33	bsteuber	(def bar (Bar. 1 2 3))
06:33	bsteuber	(set! (. bar a) 42)
06:33	bsteuber	=> No matching field found: a for class user.Bar
06:33	cemerick	and you can call that with (foo 1 2 3 :d 4 :e 5 :f 6)
06:33	cemerick	Borkdude: ^^
06:34	Borkdude	ah like in common lisp?
06:34	cemerick	similar, yes
06:35	bsteuber	oh, overlooked it is only supposed to work in method bodies :)
06:35	Borkdude	that's useful
06:35	Borkdude	gtg
06:44	vu3rdd	LauJensen: did you try the Ubuntu 10.04 beta?
06:50	AWizzArd	~max people
06:50	clojurebot	max people is 274
06:51	zmila	(filter #(not (lurking? %)) (max-people))
06:52	AWizzArd	or --> (remove lurking? (max-people))
06:54	bsteuber	could a deftype expert correct this? http://gist.github.com/376431
06:58	cemerick	bsteuber: just use (set! a 42)
06:58	cemerick	killer error msg there though :-\|
06:59	bsteuber	cemerick: ah, thx
07:01	bsteuber	in general, unreadable error messages are clojure's weak spot IMO
07:01	bsteuber	hope CinC will help there, too
07:05	Licenser_	hmm is there a lost of core functions?
07:19	cemerick	bsteuber: of course, the deftype impl is fundamentally hosty, and I'd think not in scope for the CinC effort. But yes, I hope, too. :-)
07:19	defn	"OTOH, it makes no sense for a datatype that defines a collection like vector to have a default implementation of map, thus deftype is suitable for defining such programming constructs."
07:20	defn	that line is a bit unclear in the deftype/record documentation
07:21	bsteuber	defn: I interprete this as "you will want to roll your own map implementation, so we don't give you a default one"
07:21	defn	ah okay thanks
07:21	Licenser_	hi defn
07:21	defn	Licenser_: heya buddy
07:21	defn	im actually just about to get some sleep
07:21	defn	will talk to you later
07:21	defn	:)
07:21	Licenser_	tehn rest well
07:21	defn	gnight
07:26	bosie	anyone in here who does NOT use vi/emacs for clojure development?
07:26	cemerick	netbeans + enclojure here
07:26	bosie	ok
07:27	bosie	tried IDEA and the clojure plugin?
07:27	cemerick	No, not yet.
07:28	cemerick	We use the netbeans RCP platform for one project, so that keeps us close to netbeans. I do plan on checking out the eclipse and intellij plugins at some point though.
07:28	nurv	There is a plugin for eclipse too: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/
07:28	sexpbot	" counterclockwise - Project Hosting on Google Code"
07:28	bosie	the intellij plugin is kind of stale
07:28	cemerick	Yeah, counterclockwise looks pretty slick these days.
07:29	bosie	high activity on counterclockwise
07:30	cemerick	bosie: you mean the pace of development?
07:30	bosie	yes
07:30	bosie	maybe not pace but at least activity ;)
07:30	cemerick	I used eclipse for years. It'd be funny if I ended up migrating back there.
07:32	bosie	anything you dislike about enclojure
07:32	nurv	Well, for Java code Eclipse is ok.
07:37	bosie	nurv: meaning it isn't for clojure?
07:39	cemerick	bosie: The code outline isn't so great, especially compared to the functionality I'm seeing in CC's screenshots.
07:39	cemerick	The documentation popups with code completion are unreliable.
07:40	cemerick	And I could live with more code highlighting options.
07:40	bosie	same problem i have with intellij
07:40	cemerick	But in general, it's a solid plugin.
07:40	cemerick	The fact that it has a separate embeddable repl server library is a huge win.
07:42	nurv	bosie: i didn't try clojure development on it i'll probably do at some point.
07:42	nurv	Although i really liked the Cusp plugin for Common lisp.
07:43	bosie	hmm
07:43	cemerick	heh, cusp was pretty slick
07:43	bosie	as long as i don't have to learn emacs ;)
07:43	cemerick	bosie: what are you using these days?
07:44	bosie	intellij idea
07:44	nurv	I use vim mostly, but there is nothing similar to slime
07:44	bosie	mainly because i use it for java development as well
07:44	nurv	so i fallback to eclipse + cups for CL.
07:44	nurv	*cusp
07:45	cemerick	bosie: yeah, it seems that eclipse and netbeans are both better off than intellij w.r.t. clojure support, at least from what I hear.
07:47	bosie	cemerick: and the gap seems to widen because the development of the clojure plugin for idea is sporadic
07:47	kzar	What's a good way to turn a list of strings into one string separated by spaces? (apply str string-list) works except it doesn't add the spaces
07:48	cemerick	,(apply str (interpose " " ["foo" "bar" "baz"]))
07:48	clojurebot	"foo bar baz"
07:49	cemerick	there's also a join fn in contrib...
07:49	cemerick	,clojure.contrib.str-utils2/join
07:49	clojurebot	#<str_utils2$join__7835 clojure.contrib.str_utils2$join__7835@120da23>
07:49	cemerick	,(clojure.contrib.str-utils2/join " " ["foo" "bar" "baz"])
07:49	clojurebot	"foo bar baz"
07:50	cemerick	str-utils2 has moved to c.c.string in 1.2 contrib though, FYI
07:50	bosie	cemerick: wouldnt apply/interpose iterate twice over the same list?
07:50	cemerick	kzar: ^^
07:50	cemerick	bosie: No. Interpose is lazy.
07:51	bosie	ah right
07:51	kzar	sweet thanks everyone
07:53	cemerick	bosie: I don't know that intellij could ever keep up with the other IDEs -- the closed-source heritage means there'll always be a smaller community around it.
07:54	bosie	cemerick: yea
07:55	cemerick	I'd love to pay for a super-polished clojure environment. I've got $500 for whoever can make it happen.
07:55	bosie	cemerick: gimme the 500 bucks... and come back in two years ;)
07:55	cemerick	heh
07:56	bosie	cemerick: but yea, depending on your view of 'super polished', that might not happen soon (see the ruby communit)
07:58	cemerick	bosie: well, NB's ruby support is pretty amazing, given the nature of the language.
07:58	cemerick	But yeah, I see your point.
07:58	cemerick	we'll see if anyone rises to the challenge: http://twitter.com/cemerick/statuses/12697662057 :-)
07:58	bosie	cemerick: amazing isn't the word i would use though
07:59	cemerick	bosie: really? Given the curve-balls that ruby throws?
07:59	cemerick	Just writing the grammar for ruby would be a scary undertaking.
08:00	bosie	hehe yea but i don't care for the curve-balls
08:01	bosie	if i include a library that extends all classes with specific functions i would like to have them show up in the completion table
08:03	bosie	i doubt you can write grammar rules for that
08:03	cemerick	Yeah, that requires a running environment for introspection.
08:04	bosie	or an understanding of ruby code
08:04	cemerick	well, building up the understanding necessary to add those fns to the completion table that you added to the string class (or whatever) would require a running environment.
08:05	cemerick	if monkey-patching were declarative, that might not be the case
08:06	bosie	cemerick: hmmm why do i need a running environment? you can only add methods with a handful of methods
08:11	cemerick	bosie: Yeah, you could probably figure out the common cases. If ruby's anything like python though, you can add or replace methods via references to classes, so a static analysis won't catch everything if you're not doing something simple as string.mymethod = ....
08:12	bosie	cemerick: i gotta go, thanks for the talk
08:17	zmila	cemerick, what are criterion of "super-polished clj env"
08:18	cemerick	rhickey: FYI, real usage of kwargs has convinced me of it entirely. Don't know how I lived without it before. :-)
08:18	rhickey	cemerick: kwargs?
08:18	cemerick	zmila: I suppose I should formalize my wishlist somewhere. :-)
08:18	cemerick	rhickey: keyword rest args
08:19	rhickey	ah, great!
08:23	borkdude	does anyone here synchronize their .emacs file with git?
08:23	rfg	borkdude: I've committed mine to memory.
08:25	fogus	borkdude: Mine is 1-line. ;-)
08:27	borkdude	fogus, tell me the line ;)
08:28	fogus	(load-library "~/.emacs.d/init.el")
08:29	fogus	:p
08:29	_ato	ls: cannot access /home/ato/.emacs: No such file or directory
08:29	_ato	borkdude: but to answer your question, yes
08:30	bsteuber	borkdude: me, too
08:30	_ato	my whole home directory is a git checkout
08:30	hircus	_ato: even music files and videos?
08:30	fogus	_ato: I have a similar error ls: cannot access ~/.vimrc: No such file or directory ;)
08:31	bsteuber	my .gitignore is very restricted, though :)
08:31	borkdude	fogus: I was hoping for: (tool-bar-mode -1)
08:31	SynrG	fogus: how did your system get so broken?
08:31	hircus	I have several git repos for ~/bin and several other dirs but not the entire home dir
08:32	_ato	hircus: nah, it's pretty selective, I keep notes, configuration, ~/bin in main home dir git. Some things have seperate repos, like emacs configuration
08:32	fogus	borkdude: I use Aquamacs
08:33	rfg	fogus: What version of Aquamacs do you use?
08:33	_ato	I use a wrapper script "hgit" which sets GIT_DIR so I don't accidentally commit stuff to my home directory git went I meant to commit to a project or something
08:34	fogus	rfg: 1.9
08:35	fogus	I'm not married to Emacs for all of my development though. I use it a lot, but for Java, Scala, and Python work I use other things
08:36	chouser	_ato: brilliant. I have all that except for the hgit script.
08:45	_ato	oh and the other bit you need is: git config core.worktree /home/ato
08:46	_ato	then you can move the .git somewhere else
08:46	_ato	and the regular git command won't find it unless you explicitly set GIT_DIR at the path you moved it to
08:48	LauJensen	vu3rdd: Yea I'm on it now
08:48	LauJensen	(ubuntu 10.4 that is)
08:48	vu3rdd	LauJensen: Ok
08:49	vu3rdd	LauJensen: I thought you were on OSX
08:49	LauJensen	No I cant stand the thing
08:49	vu3rdd	:)
08:49	vu3rdd	http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonobacon/4543428023/sizes/l/
08:49	sexpbot	"Flickr Photo Download: screenshot"
08:49	borkdude	LauJensen: I just installed Ubuntu 9.10 on this laptop, any good reasons to upgrade to 10.4 right now?
08:50	LauJensen	borkdude: No then you might as well wait until it goes out of Beta, but expect something like a 60 - 70% drop in boot time an finer social networking integration
08:51	borkdude	It looks like my webcam is turned on by default in Ubuntu, are they spying on me?
08:51	LauJensen	I dont know, are you good looking ? :)
08:51	LauJensen	I haven't experienced that behavior, though I have a built in web cam
08:52	borkdude	me2
08:52	vu3rdd	borkdude: what do you mean by turned on?
08:53	borkdude	the led is burning, I think it doesn't do that in windows
08:53	vu3rdd	ok.
08:54	vu3rdd	Usually when the driver is loaded, the led turns on. so perhaps that is what you are seeing
08:54	vu3rdd	sudo lsmod \| grep uvcvideo
08:55	vu3rdd	you can rmmod it if you are concerned
08:56	borkdude	vu3rdd: lsmod didn't return a line
08:56	vu3rdd	ok, may be your webcam is not uvc camera
09:12	mmarczyk	LauJensen: www.whittard.co.uk have good leaf teas and ship them everywhere
09:12	sexpbot	"Whittard of Chelsea - Tea , Coffee , China , Teapots , Tea Sets"
09:31	bendlas	I need an informed opinion on servers before learning a specific one:
09:32	bendlas	I want to write a webservice with comet/long-polling
09:32	bendlas	which server would you recommend as a technical basis for that?
09:34	bendlas	w.r.t clojure support, although i don't mind writing some framework of my own
09:35	bendlas	my first sample was jetty with blocking, which of course, is not very scalable
09:37	AntonyBlakey	bendlas: have you looked at Netty?
09:37	AntonyBlakey	I've used it from Clojure
09:38	bendlas	i'm aware of it's existance, but i don't know how it compares to the alternatives
09:38	bendlas	is it any good?
09:38	AntonyBlakey	It seemed so to me.
09:38	neotyk	bendlas: please check atmosphere project
09:40	neotyk	it will run comet on all servers, and if server has native api for it or supports servlet 3.0 you'll get native performance
09:40	neotyk	and we would appreciate a lot clojure support ;-)
09:40	bendlas	nice, i'll check it out
09:41	patrkris_	rhickey: just out of curiosity, are there any planned changes to the STM?
09:41	bendlas	thanks
09:43	hamza	does the agents and future objects use the same thread pool? or two seperate pools?
09:43	cemerick	neotyk: atmosphere looks interesting, thanks for the pointer
09:44	cemerick	hamza: same, IIRC
09:44	patrkris_	hamza: depends on whether you use send or send-off, I guess
09:44	chouser	futures use the send-off pool
09:44	patrkris_	yes
09:44	neotyk	cemerick: pleasure is mine, just spreading the word of project I contribute to
09:46	hamza	ohh kk, i was using send pool for some blocking actions and was wondering if futures gets blocked, then i am fine..
09:47	bsteuber	neotyk: for the less gifted ones among us, for what exactly can I use atmosphere?
09:49	bsteuber	is it some sort of high-level web application framework?
09:49	neotyk	bsteuber: comet applications, broadcasting in http, pub-sub, long polling, and ajax push
09:49	neotyk	this is framework that provides one API to do comet
09:50	neotyk	and allows you deploy to 'any' servlet container
09:50	neotyk	'any' as it makes sense to deploy to one that has comet api available
09:52	neotyk	so if you would write comet app for jetty you would not be able to run on grizzly, tomcat, jboss, you name it, by using atmo you can, plus you get higher lever functionality like broadcasting
09:52	neotyk	does that make sense?
09:53	bsteuber	neotyk: yes, at least enough to be motivated for further investigation
09:54	neotyk	cool
09:54	bsteuber	but it seems quite annotation-heavy - isn't that a problem with clojure?
09:54	neotyk	you have two ways to work with it: Jersey like and it is annotations, and api like
09:54	borkdude	it turns out my webcam isn't supported in linux yet I guess: http://linuxlaptopwiki.net/wiki/ALi_Corp_M5602
09:54	sexpbot	"ALi Corp M5602 - LinuxLaptopWiki"
09:55	borkdude	not that i want to use it, I just want to turn that damn led off
09:56	neotyk	bsteuber: you know java people like annotations a lot
09:57	neotyk	but we have it used in akka, that is scala application
09:57	bsteuber	neotyk: ic, nice
09:57	neotyk	I was thinking of integrating it as middlewere for compojure, but I lack Clojure foo
09:59	bsteuber	so atmosphere includes some javascript-generation like JWT, too?
09:59	neotyk	bsteuber: mew release should have JQuery integration, but it is not forced on user
10:01	bsteuber	mew?
10:01	neotyk	s/mew/new/
10:01	rhickey	patrkris_: I have ideas for STM - knobs for retries/timeouts etc per-transaciton, also some ideas around transaction timestamps
10:01	bsteuber	ok
10:03	patrkris_	rhickey: anything you want to share that we can maybe do some prototyping with? we're doing a little benchmarking on the stm and trying to find out the effects of different changes.
10:03	rhickey	patrkris_: no code yet
10:03	patrkris_	rhickey: ideas would be fine - we don't mind coding a little ourselves :)
10:04	patrkris_	rhickey: but if you don't have the time, that's ok - we have some papers we're looking through
10:05	rhickey	patrkris_: what do you want that it doesn't do?
10:05	bsteuber	neotyk: JQuery looks nice
10:06	patrkris_	rhickey: nothing in particular. We're just looking at the STM litterature and seeing if we can find something we could try out on Clojure's STM. Just to see the effects in a few small benchmarks we have written. Nothing fancy.
10:07	rhickey	patrkris_: one obvious area is contention-resolution, which is currently hardwired to oldest-transaction-wins
10:07	patrkris_	rhickey: cool, noted
10:14	patrkris_	rhickey: R. Mark Volkmann's page about Clojure's STM notes that you were inspired by the Robert Ennals article (noted at the section about blockAndBail). Where does he know this from? Did he just ask you, or is it described somewhere?
10:16	rhickey	patrkris_: I just mentioned it at some point
10:25	patrkris_	rhickey: just one more question, and you'll have to excuse me, because I'm a little confused: does Clojure's STM exhibit obstruction freedom or does it not?
10:25	rhickey	not
10:28	npoektop	Hi! I have a question about compojure. From flash i do file["postData"] = "sid=..."; file.upload(urlRequest, "image", true); How to get that postData in compojure?
10:31	AWizzArd	npoektop: the client (be it the browser (html&js) or flash or any other application with network access to your app) must send the data over http. There it can be encoded in the header or body. In Compojure each handler gets a request hashmap. In that you can find all data which the client sent
10:32	npoektop	AWizzArd, ok, i'll try. thank you
10:33	hugod	is there a function to return the namespace of a symbol?
10:40	wooby	i have some functions that take vectors as args
10:40	dnolen	hugod: namespace if it's a namespaced symbol, otherwise you may have to look at the metadata of the var.
10:40	wooby	and i'm dispatching based on whether one of the items is a keyword starting with a question mark
10:40	dnolen	,^#'defn
10:40	clojurebot	{:macro true, :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name defn, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 206, :doc "Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def\n name (fn ([params ] exprs)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added\n to the var metadata", :arglists ([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params*] body) + attr-map?])}
10:40	wooby	is this the sort of thing that deftype and all the new stuff are looking to simplify?
10:41	bsteuber	wooby: no, deftype etc. are for performance mostly
10:41	hugod	dnolen: thanks, I forgot about metadata
10:42	wooby	alrighty, thanks bsteuber
10:43	hugod	dnolen: but that only works if you have a var...
10:43	dnolen	hugod: then namespace should work right?
10:44	hugod	on an arbitrary symbol?
10:45	dnolen	hugod: but where is the symbol coming from? sounds like your doing something fancy with macros?
10:45	hugod	oh, it does work
10:45	hugod	dnolen: from a string...
10:58	ivenkys	gents - simple question - what is the name of the ^ symbol ? (google-fu not working)
10:59	dnolen	ivenkys: meta
10:59	ivenkys	i.e. the metadata symbol
11:00	Chousuke	note, it's deprecated
11:00	ivenkys	dnolen: thanks
11:00	Chousuke	instead of ^foo you're now supposed to write (meta foo)
11:00	ivenkys	Chousuke: meta symbol is deprecated ?
11:01	dnolen	ivenkys: in 1.2.0 yes
11:01	Chousuke	yeah, it'll eventually be changed to do what #^ does now.
11:01	chouser	yes, it's eventually going to become the set-metadata symbol
11:02	ivenkys	Chousuke: chouser: thanks
11:23	lessthantristan	ok i have some code that looks something like this: http://gist.github.com/376581 (this is the most basic version i could write that still has the problem).
11:24	lessthantristan	basically, if the recursive function finds something it doesn't like it'll throw an exception. if the exception is not a ParseException and a :catch-error element is present in the input, it will handle the error otherwise it throws it down to the stack which checks the same thing.
11:24	lessthantristan	The problem is that the exception gets wrapped in RuntimeExceptions as it goes down the stack so the = class call stops working after the initial throw. anyone got any ideas on how to fix this?
11:34	raek	I think that when lazy seqs are evaluated, checked exceptions are caught and a runtime exception is thrown
11:35	raek	if the exception is not checked (i.e. inherits from Error or RuntimeException) it will pass through, I think
11:35	lessthantristan	hmm it might be something to try (in my real code i am using custom exceptions)
11:37	chouser	lessthantristan: you probably want to use the root exception rather than the one 'catch' hands you
11:37	chouser	in your = I mean
11:38	chouser	clojure.stacktrace/root-cause
11:40	lessthantristan	ah ok i'll have a look at that too
11:41	livingston	I'm not sure of the context (I joined in the middle of this conversation), but java Exceptions also have a getCause method that you can chain through
11:41	lessthantristan	btw. i changed my exceptions to extend Error rather than exception and this makes the code run how i want
11:41	livingston	it's good practice in java if you catch and re-throw to set the cause to the caught exception
11:42	livingston	extending Java Error? i don't know about in Clojure, but in Java that's bad practice, you should extend the leaf types, like RuntimeException
11:44	lessthantristan	sure. it's probably just as bad in clojure :). i'll have a look at chouser's idea. (btw, for context http://gist.github.com/376581 description in the comments)
11:44	chouser	,(try (seq (lazy-seq (throw (NoSuchMethodException. "foo")))) (catch Throwable e (printf "Caught %s, root %s\n" (class e) (class (clojure.stacktrace/root-cause e)))))
11:44	clojurebot	chouser: It's greek to me.
11:45	chouser	oh, it doesn't let you do try/catch
11:45	livingston	again this is from Java, but catching Throwable is a really bad idea
11:46	livingston	That will catch Errors, and Checked and Unchecked Exceptions, (catching Exception is just as bad, because that traps both checked and unchecked)
11:48	lessthantristan	so i guess if you're making your own exception classes you would extend something like RuntimeException then catch that (if you're interested in just catching all your custom exceptions)?
11:49	livingston	exactly
11:50	livingston_	my stupid office blocks IRC because "only hackers use that" so I have a bad web client...
11:50	lessthantristan	chouser: that code runs in the repl. maybe clojurebot doesn't have clojure.stacktrace required?
11:51	livingston_	I don't know what i missed
11:51	slyphon	livingston_: wow, that's piss poor
11:51	slyphon	livingston_: actually, nothing :)
11:51	mmarczyk	livingston: isn't your office supposed to be a hackers' workplace? :-)
11:51	livingston_	but if you want to make your own exceptions you should extend Exception or RuntimeException
11:51	chouser	lessthantristan: clojurebot refuses to run code that includes 'try'
11:51	lessthantristan	ah ok
11:52	chouser	I had forgotten
11:52	livingston_	mmarczyk: yes, kinda it's hard when there are only a few CS people in a sea of people that know nothing about computers
11:52	lessthantristan	:)
11:53	livingston_	re exceptions, it's also preferred to use the existing ones when they do fit (there are a lot of standard ones)
11:53	mmarczyk	may I suggest that you exploit your superior knowledge to subvert the IT policy to your advantage? ;-)
11:54	livingston_	mmarczyk: it is very draconian here - there are forms to be filed to use skype, because "why wouldn't you use our conference call lines?" (which aren't free by the way)
11:55	livingston_	mmarczyk: Monday's mission is get 6667 unblocked
11:55	mmarczyk	oh, that's rather extreme :-(
11:55	dakrone	livingston_: tunnel through SSH?
11:56	mmarczyk	here's hoping you accomplish that
11:56	livingston_	dakrone: I can, I would need somewhere that would forward for me though, and I've never gotten around to setting that up
11:57	mmarczyk	,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3])
11:57	clojurebot	true
11:57	mmarczyk	is this really by design?
11:57	chouser	mmarczyk: yes
11:57	replaca	livingston_: I keep a linux machine running at home so I can tunnel from anywhere I am - it's super-convenient
11:57	chouser	,(= '(1 2 3) (range 1 4))
11:57	clojurebot	true
11:57	mmarczyk	hm, thanks, good to know
11:57	chouser	(map class '(1 2 3) (range 1 4))
11:57	chouser	,(map class '(1 2 3) (range 1 4))
11:57	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$class
11:58	chouser	,(map class ['(1 2 3) (range 1 4)])
11:58	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.PersistentList clojure.lang.LazySeq)
11:58	mmarczyk	I don't think I mind
11:58	dakrone	livingston_: I understand your situation, I have to tunnel IRC through SSH through SSL to get mine working
11:58	replaca	livingston_: also, I can use it a secure web proxy when I'm on open wireless
11:58	mmarczyk	but I do wonder about the rationale?
11:58	livingston_	replaca: yeah I might resort to that - how do you get a static address?
11:58	tcrayford	is there a function to drop every other element of a seq?
11:58	livingston_	I haven't even set up home internet yet, I just moved
11:59	mmarczyk	(actually, I seem to be experiencing a moment of enlightenment whereby this starts to make sense)
11:59	chouser	mmarczyk: clojure tries to avoid relying on concrete types as much as possible. You see that '(...) and (range ...) return different types?
11:59	mmarczyk	yes
11:59	mmarczyk	true
11:59	chouser	mmarczyk: you usually don't care that they're different, even when using =
11:59	mmarczyk	and then I seem to remember clojure.lang.Cons being used by the reader?
12:00	mmarczyk	ok, starts to make sense
12:00	mmarczyk	thanks
12:00	chouser	mmarczyk: so Clojure partitions collections into three groups for purposes of equality: lists, sets, and maps.
12:00	chouser	,(take-nth 2 (range 10))
12:00	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8)
12:00	chouser	tcrayford: ^^^
12:00	tcrayford	yeah, cheers
12:00	tcrayford	was doing something horrible with indexed
12:01	mmarczyk	,(= {0 0 1 1} [0 1])
12:01	clojurebot	false
12:01	tcrayford	tests still pass, so its good, cheers
12:01	chouser	mmarczyk: we go to lengths to explain this as best we can in Joy of Clojure.
12:01	mmarczyk	yup, I'm reading through it
12:02	mmarczyk	great reading so far, by the way
12:02	tcrayford	is work on clojure-in-clojure starting after 1.2?
12:02	chouser	mmarczyk: oh, great. early in chapter 4 then. :-)
12:02	mmarczyk	:-)
12:03	chouser	tcrayford: 1.2 is work on clojure-in-clojure, to a certain extent.
12:03	tcrayford	I guess so
12:04	chouser	I want to start poking at pieces of it as soon as this book's out of the way.
12:04	tcrayford	heh
12:04	tcrayford	the book is much better this iteration
12:04	slyphon	ok, can someone explain why ~foo# in a macro doesn't compile?
12:04	tcrayford	compared to the first one
12:04	chouser	tcrayford: ah, good. glad to hear it.
12:04	livingston_	so java has the edu.univ.lab.package ... mostly standard naming convention
12:04	hiredman	slyphon: # gensyms only work inside syntax-quote and ~ is unquote
12:04	mmarczyk	slyphon: because gensyms created with # are only valid within the syntax-quote their created in
12:05	livingston_	is clojure kinda sticking to that? or is it just the wild-west for package names?
12:05	chouser	livingston_: depends on who you talk to. I'd recommend sticking with Java conventions.
12:05	mmarczyk	livingston: most Clojure libs I use follow the packagename.core, packagename.foo convention for naming namespaces
12:06	mmarczyk	oh well :-)
12:06	livingston_	chouser: that's what I figured, probably makes java interop a hair better too?
12:06	mmarczyk	slyphon: so, have you figured out why your macro didn't work as originally written?
12:06	chouser	mmarczyk: and if someone else also uses packagename, stride out into the street at high noon and have at it.
12:06	chouser	:-)
12:07	slyphon	mmarczyk: yeah, but it turns out our version didn't work as expected outside of that ns
12:07	mmarczyk	chouser: hell yeah, the jerk should have known better ;-)
12:07	livingston_	mmarczyk: yeah but then who gets dibs on rdf or sql or whatever library standard names, etc..
12:07	lessthantristan	hah. with clj.stacktrace, the final exception becomes a java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException (e.g. my solution under http://gist.github.com/376581 below line 25). it doesn't matter if i keep using root-cause but i wonder where that's coming from
12:07	mmarczyk	slyphon: how come?
12:08	LauJensen	mmarczyk: thanks! :)
12:08	mmarczyk	livingston: first come, first to fortify one's positions ;-)
12:08	mmarczyk	LauJensen: sure thing :-)
12:09	chouser	bsteuber: yay! :-)
12:09	mmarczyk	LauJensen: I find the "Orangajuli" (spelling?) Assam to be particularly good, if they still have that
12:09	livingston_	lessthantristan: just remember if you catch Exception you will get all of them even a lot of runtime ones you might not want to trap
12:09	s450r1	tis a very good book, nice sequel to "Programming Clojure"
12:09	tcrayford	is the only difference between rest and next that next returns nil on empty seqs?
12:10	tcrayford	,(rest [])
12:10	clojurebot	()
12:10	slyphon	mmarczyk: ok, that seemed to work
12:10	tcrayford	,(next [])
12:10	clojurebot	nil
12:10	slyphon	mmarczyk: i thought i ran into trouble with it
12:10	mmarczyk	um, apparently they don't, but http://www.whittard.co.uk/store/catalogue/Tea-P2000/India-TIND/Loose-Harmutty-Gold-Tips-105668.raa is close
12:10	sexpbot	"Tea > India - Whittard Of Chelsea"
12:11	mmarczyk	slyphon: so it works now? happy to hear that :-)
12:11	livingston_	tcrayford: yeah, I was trying to sort that out too, and what's preferred, i've been seeing different descriptions that have confused me
12:11	slyphon	mmarczyk: must have been stale repl state last night...or the beer...
12:11	mmarczyk	:-)
12:13	slyphon	i think i'm still not really sure what the syntax quoting is doing, i mean, in general. it seems like a lot of macros open with a `(), and then do escaping throughout, but there are others like your solution
12:13	tcrayford	technomancy: I think there might be a bug with that xref patch I sent you
12:15	mmarczyk	slyphon: oh bother, I just realised that that macro will fairly often not work
12:15	slyphon	oh?
12:15	mmarczyk	because it assumes it's being passed a map literal for props-map
12:15	slyphon	ah! yes!
12:15	slyphon	that was it
12:15	mmarczyk	so (update-bean bs some-var-holding-a-map)
12:15	mmarczyk	won't work
12:16	mmarczyk	right, let's fix that
12:16	slyphon	why does that happen?
12:16	technomancy	tcrayford: oh, good thing I've been too busy to apply it then. =)
12:16	tcrayford	heh
12:16	tcrayford	technomancy: I think it doesn't work on any project other than swank
12:16	tcrayford	I THINK
12:16	tcrayford	I could kinda use some testing though
12:17	tcrayford	either that or I've been compiling it wrong
12:17	slyphon	so `() is kind of like "make a form that looks like this" and ~blah substitutes the value held by blah into the form?
12:17	tcrayford	yes
12:18	slyphon	ok
12:18	mmarczyk	slyphon, first see http://gist.github.com/376105
12:18	mmarczyk	for a proposed fix
12:18	slyphon	kk
12:18	tcrayford	technomancy: when I try to compile it, (even after changes), it shows that all namespaces are already compiled
12:18	slyphon	mmarczyk: ahh, yeah
12:18	mmarczyk	technomancy: Leiningen seems to be pulling two version each of ant and ant-launcher
12:18	slyphon	makes sense
12:19	mmarczyk	is this a known issue (or do I need to check my local maven repo or sth)
12:19	mmarczyk	?
12:19	livingston_	if that macro isn't taking constants in, you really should probably just be using a regular function - being a macro isn't buying you anything if there is nothing to pre-compute
12:19	mmarczyk	slyphon: the macro receives its argument "as is"
12:19	mmarczyk	livingston: you can't use a regular function here
12:20	slyphon	right right, it's not getting "the value of"
12:20	mmarczyk	because you need to expand into . forms
12:20	livingston_	slyphon: regarding macros in general the syntax quote is nothing special, it's short hand - you can write macros just fine without out. think about this:...
12:20	mmarczyk	which need to include your custom-generated symbols
12:20	mmarczyk	the shape of which depends on the map you pass in to the macro
12:21	technomancy	mmarczyk: there's probably a dev-dependency that is declaring unnecessary deps.
12:21	tcrayford	technomancy: tell a lie, I hadn't compiled it properly
12:21	slyphon	livingston_: yeah, i know it's the inverse of the 'form
12:21	livingston_	if you have the code (+ foo bar) that is just a list of three symbols if you want a macro to produce that code it's just: (list + foo bar)
12:21	tcrayford	technomancy: just tested it on all of the clojure projects I use swank on, all of them work
12:21	mmarczyk	technomancy: guess so, I'll investigate
12:21	technomancy	mmarczyk: in fact, I think the swank plugin might do that.
12:21	slyphon	livingston_: nod
12:21	technomancy	mmarczyk: could you submit an issue or patch?
12:21	mmarczyk	will do
12:22	technomancy	tcrayford: does your patch need AOT?
12:22	technomancy	we try to avoid it if possible?
12:22	technomancy	err--possible.
12:22	tcrayford	I don't think so, was just putting it as a dependancy for other stuff via lein jar
12:22	slyphon	argh
12:22	mmarczyk	incidentally, why would the swank-clojure dev dep ever be possible
12:22	slyphon	mmarczyk: "Can't eval locals"
12:22	livingston_	slyphon: so just start with an example of the code you want to come out and then think about the what you need to cons together to produce that list/tree of symbols.
12:22	tcrayford	I think I'm just being bad with terminology
12:23	mmarczyk	I never remember remember about it and yet it always works :-)
12:23	mmarczyk	slyphon: ouch, one more fix then
12:23	mmarczyk	just a sec
12:23	slyphon	sure
12:23	slyphon	hm
12:24	tcrayford	technomancy: currently it seems to be bugging out on some symbols. It works fine with defn, but not with if
12:24	technomancy	tcrayford: defn is a var, but if isn't
12:25	technomancy	it's a special form
12:25	tcrayford	ah
12:25	technomancy	so that's OK
12:25	tcrayford	that'd explain that one, seeing as I get stuff from vars
12:25	technomancy	yeah, trying to track down every use of a special form would be pretty hardcore, but we can do without it. =)
12:25	tcrayford	heh
12:25	mmarczyk	slyphon: could you test this new version?
12:25	slyphon	sure
12:26	slyphon	what's &env ?
12:27	tcrayford	technomancy: it probably needs proper error messages. Currently it'll mess up if it can't find any references (you get a char-or-stringp error from emacs)
12:27	mmarczyk	&env is an implicit argument that macro functions receive
12:27	mmarczyk	holds a map of locals
12:27	slyphon	ahh
12:28	mmarczyk	actually, I'll modify the code a little bit yet
12:28	slyphon	so (&env props-map) is kind of like (a-hash-map :key) ?
12:28	tcrayford	technomancy: and it only works after each namespace is actually loaded (as far as I can see).
12:28	mmarczyk	done
12:28	slyphon	ahhh
12:28	slyphon	right on
12:29	mmarczyk	slyphon: exactly, and (get &env props-map) is immune to NPE
12:29	slyphon	so &env is a hash of local symbols-to-values
12:29	slyphon	:)
12:29	mmarczyk	right, but will be nil if there are none
12:30	mmarczyk	basically this macro makes the assumption that props-map is either a map literal or a symbol naming either a local or a Var
12:30	mmarczyk	and locals win over Vars, as they should
12:30	slyphon	wow
12:31	mmarczyk	great, now I'll have an update-bean macro lying around
12:31	mmarczyk	for whenever I get the point of beans
12:31	mmarczyk	:-)
12:31	slyphon	this was way more involved than i'd originally thought
12:32	slyphon	mmarczyk: beans are just java's way of adding an unnecessary layer of indirection around objects
12:32	mmarczyk	sounds like fun :-)
12:32	slyphon	it's just the convention of getThatThing() setThatThing()
12:32	slyphon	to change the internal state of an object
12:33	mmarczyk	right
12:33	mmarczyk	hm, actually
12:33	mmarczyk	perhaps this could be a function if we used reflection instead of .
12:33	slyphon	to be consistent with their total contempt for elegant syntax
12:33	slyphon	mmarczyk: well, the 'bean' function uses reflection
12:33	mmarczyk	makes perfect sense ;-)
12:33	slyphon	but i didn't want to go there
12:34	slyphon	:)
12:35	AWizzArd	http://hughw.blogspot.com/2009/01/clojure-vs-javafx-script-only-5x-slower.html
12:35	sexpbot	"Messages not Models: Clojure vs JavaFX Script: only 5x slower!"
12:36	livingston_	AWizzArd: it says "after normalizing to so-and-so's machine speed" - that benchmark is pretty suspect
12:37	livingston_	same cpu? same os? same ... ?
12:38	AWizzArd	well, you can try to check tak in java vs tak in clojure on your own machine
12:38	Licenser	hmm hmmm
12:38	chouser	all the code on that page is using boxed math
12:39	slyphon	what's the function that lets you assoc into a nested map?
12:39	mmarczyk	assoc-in
12:39	tcrayford	,(doc assoc-in)
12:39	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] v]); Associates a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and v is the new value and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
12:39	slyphon	mmarczyk: thanks
12:40	slyphon	i thought so, it wasn't in the cheatsheet though :)
12:43	livingston_	there was a change made to lein so you can put some dependencies not managed by maven in a directory and they would get on the classpath.. is there docs on that anywhere (I'm having trouble finding it)
12:44	mmarczyk	livingston: whatever you put in lib/ will be on the classpath
12:44	mmarczyk	you don't need a patch for that
12:44	mmarczyk	well, actually any jar you put in lib/
12:44	livingston_	yeah but lein clean will destroy it
12:45	mmarczyk	hm, right
12:45	mmarczyk	you could work around that with a script to create some symlinks
12:45	mmarczyk	not very clean though
12:47	joshua-choi	,(doc deftype)
12:47	clojurebot	"([type-tag constructor-name docstring? attr-map?] [type-tag constructor-name docstring? attr-map? constructor] [type-tag constructor-name docstring? attr-map? constructor deconstructor]); Define a data type by a type tag (a namespace-qualified keyword) and a symbol naming the constructor function. Optionally, a constructor and a deconstructor function can be given as well, the defaults being clojure.core/identity and cloj
12:48	AWizzArd	how can I use recur in an implementation of a protocol?
12:49	AWizzArd	I have a (defprotocol Takkable (tak [t])). Now I implement (tak [this] ... (recur (Tak. ...)))
12:49	AWizzArd	Now I get a: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 0 args, got: 1
12:50	joshua-choi	I remember reading somewhere that you don't pass on the first argument.
12:50	AWizzArd	where (deftype Tak [x y z] Takkable (tak [this] ...))
12:51	AWizzArd	The first arg is supposed to be an instance of Tak
12:51	AWizzArd	not deftype but defrecord
12:51	AWizzArd	(defrecord Tak [x y z] Takkable (tak [this] ...))
12:51	AWizzArd	And tak wants to recur, with an updated instance of (Tak. ...)
12:51	joshua-choi	Ah yes, check defrecord's docs.
12:52	joshua-choi	"Note also that recur calls to the method head should not pass the target object, it will be supplied automatically and can not be substituted."
12:52	AWizzArd	Yes.
12:53	AWizzArd	So I must recur to the immutable instance with which the function started?
12:53	AWizzArd	I can not alter the "this" arg itself then?
12:53	vu3rdd	technomancy: did you get a chance to look at the swank-clojure patch I sent you?
12:53	Chousuke	AWizzArd: you'll need another arity for that
12:54	joshua-choi	Is there a set of naming guidelines for Clojure?
12:54	joshua-choi	Specifically, for factory functions and protocol methods
12:55	Chousuke	protocol methods are named just like ordinary funcitons
12:55	Chousuke	functions*
12:55	Chousuke	factory functions are either make-foo or create-foo I guess
12:55	joshua-choi	Yeah, but what do you name them? "make-"? "create-"?
12:55	joshua-choi	Yeah.
12:55	joshua-choi	clojure.core uses both.
12:55	hiredman	fooify
12:55	joshua-choi	clojure.core also uses "vector", "vec", etc.
12:56	Chousuke	it depends on what you're constructing I suppose.
12:56	AWizzArd	make- is closer to the Lisp family's history.
12:56	joshua-choi	AWizzArd: That's good to know.
12:57	joshua-choi	Chousuke: Something called a "State". (make-state ...) (create-state ...) (state ...).
12:58	joshua-choi	Also, what about protocol methods? If I make a "getter" method for an "answer", should I name the method (get-answer ...), (answer ...), or something else?
12:58	rsenior	hi all
12:58	joshua-choi	rsenior: Hello hello
12:58	rsenior	is anyone persisting blobs with clojureql?
12:59	arohner	didn't someone make a macro that is defn, but it takes a map, to make it easier for macros calling defn?
12:59	AWizzArd	joshua-choi: do you think you need a getter?
12:59	Chousuke	joshua-choi: is the answer a property of the object, or something that's actually computed?
12:59	joshua-choi	AWizzArd: Versus using a keyword directly on a record?
12:59	AWizzArd	yes
13:00	joshua-choi	Probably yes, because I have different types of records that implement this protocol.
13:00	AWizzArd	http://clojure.org/datatypes
13:00	joshua-choi	For some types of those records, it's not a simple attribute.
13:01	Borkdude	Has anyone got ClojureCLR working?
13:01	Chousuke	then maybe compute-answer or just answer
13:01	Chousuke	get doesn't really convey anything useful
13:01	AWizzArd	On this site rhickey wrote: "It has always been an unfortunate characteristic of using classes for application domain information that it resulted in information being hidden behind class-specific micro-languages, e.g. even the seemingly harmless employeee.getName() is a custom interface to data."
13:01	Licenser	odd compairison
13:02	joshua-choi	AWizzArd: The problem is that some records need to return themselves with this method, while others return an attribute.
13:03	joshua-choi	Chousuke: The problem with not using "get-" is that it can (and in my case does) conflict with using "answer" as a binding symbol in let forms.
13:03	Chousuke	what is it an answer to, then?
13:03	joshua-choi	But I'm not saying I have to; I'm asking if I should change it. :)
13:03	technomancy	vu3rdd: sorry, been pretty swamped recently. hopefully I can get back to swank next week.
13:03	joshua-choi	Chousuke: Oh, some parsing thing. Ignore that it's called "answer"; it could be called anything.
13:04	vu3rdd	technomancy: no problem.
13:05	Chousuke	joshua-choi: hmmh. in any case, it doesn't sound like a getter
13:05	Chousuke	joshua-choi: so maybe you can find a real function name for it
13:06	AWizzArd	joshua-choi: is it for the hound? ;)
13:06	Chousuke	apply-parser or apply-rules or whatever your object actually represents
13:06	joshua-choi	AWizzArd: It's for both the Cat and Hound. Actually, it's for the common code between them.
13:06	AWizzArd	k
13:06	AWizzArd	Chousuke: would those be methods of the Protocol?
13:07	Chousuke	AWizzArd: I don't see why not
13:07	joshua-choi	AWizzArd: I'm actually almost done...after I rewrite find, substitute, and substitute-1, I'm going to freeze the API and enter the beta stage.
13:07	joshua-choi	After that, just documentation.
13:07	AWizzArd	Chousuke: good, just wanted to be sure.
13:07	Chousuke	AWizzArd: protocols are just a collection of functions
13:07	AWizzArd	ja
13:07	AWizzArd	joshua-choi: very good, I might become one of your beta testers
13:08	joshua-choi	I'll let you know
13:08	AWizzArd	joshua-choi: do you know if the performance to fnparse 1.1 became better?
13:08	joshua-choi	I don't know for sure.
13:08	AWizzArd	We'll see.
13:08	joshua-choi	I've never rigorously tested.
13:08	joshua-choi	I'm pretty sure though
13:08	joshua-choi	Cat is a packrat parser.
13:08	joshua-choi	Hound gets rid of a certain space leak that Parsec's introductory paper talked about.
13:09	AWizzArd	mhmm :)
13:09	joshua-choi	Other than being LL(1) by default, Hound is the same as FnParse 2.x.
13:09	joshua-choi	And a ton more error features.
13:09	joshua-choi	Actually, the error handing may make Hound sometimes slower than FnParse 2 for short input strings...though I doubt it.
13:09	vegai	ok, I wanna get Leiningen to work for once. Can you guys help a bit?
13:10	joshua-choi	vegai: What problem are you running into?
13:10	etate	vegai: whats the problem?>
13:10	livingston_	vegai: once? or continuously? ;)
13:11	Borkdude	Who also the problem 'The extern alias 'MSC' was not specified in a /reference option' when trying to install ClojureCLR?
13:11	Borkdude	I put MSC at the Aliases property at Microsoft.Scripting.Core
13:13	joshua-choi	Chousuke: I guess I could try to find a better name for get-answer...no, I don't think there is one. I have plenty of other examples.
13:14	joshua-choi	(defprotocol AState (get-remainder [state]) (get-position [state]) (make-another-state [state input context]))
13:14	joshua-choi	I have two types of AStates, and get-remainder is nontrivial for one of them
13:14	chouser	if it's just doing a value lookup, you could consider implementing ILookupKeyword
13:15	chouser	er, ILookup, rather
13:15	joshua-choi	chouser: get-remainder doesn't do a value lookup for one type of AState; it has to generate a sequence using drop and stuff.
13:15	chouser	ok
13:15	joshua-choi	Otherwise, I would have just used :remainder or something.
13:16	joshua-choi	Is there a better way to name the method other than "get-remainder"?
13:17	TakeV	Is the CLI version of Clojure as up to date as the Java version?
13:18	Chousuke	I have never actually looked at it.
13:18	joshua-choi	What's the CLI version?
13:19	slyphon	joshua-choi: winders
13:19	slyphon	joshua-choi: .NET
13:19	joshua-choi	Ah
13:19	Borkdude	why isn't that called the CLR version?
13:19	TakeV	Er, yeah, sorry, misremembered the name.
13:20	TakeV	Was thinking about doing an XNA game, and Clojure is awesome.
13:20	Borkdude	TakeV: I'm just trying to get ClojureCLR to install in Visual Studio
13:20	Borkdude	but I get a little stuck
13:20	TakeV	Difficult?
13:20	Borkdude	now it can't find the namespace System.Dynamic
13:21	Borkdude	TakeV: did you get it to work?
13:22	TakeV	Borkdude: I haven't tried, most of my work is with the JVM.
13:22	Borkdude	it must be something stupid, I'll search some more
13:22	joshua-choi	Is the ClojureCLR under active development?
13:23	wooby	joshua-choi, there's nu for objective-c lisp
13:23	wooby	it's cool
13:24	Borkdude	I have no idea, but I tell everyone doing CLR to take a look at it ;-)
13:24	joshua-choi	wooby: I'll check that out, thanks.
13:24	wooby	np
13:24	TakeV	wooby: Does it work for the iPhone?
13:25	livingston_	I though Rich abandoned it? because he was sick of supporting two architectures, but maybe someone picked it up?
13:25	wooby	TakeV, last i checked
13:25	TakeV	Excellent. :)
13:25	wooby	i know there have been the recent shenanigans in that realm
13:25	wooby	so i'm not sure anymore
13:25	vegai	joshua-choi, etate, livingston_: thanks. I'll try it one more time by myself first :)
13:26	vegai	the last time I tried to build my own simple hello world on it, I got exceptions towards java.lang.String for some reason
13:26	clojurebot	what time is it?
13:27	livingston_	vegai: one "problem/feature" with lein is that it will leave jars behind in lib so if you have old clojure jars in there, and call lein deps it will leave them and you will get your jvm confused
13:27	livingston_	vegai: leain clean will flush that directory though
13:29	joshua-choi	Why does clojurebot say weird things sometimes?
13:30	vegai	livingston_: ah, now I might see my first mistake
13:30	vegai	in project.clj, I gave :main as a string
13:35	replaca	Borkdude: you need a version of .Net that supports the DLR extensions), I think this means .Net 4.0, but I'm not sure
13:36	Licenser	joshua-choi: because he's nuts
13:37	vegai	ok...
13:38	replaca	livingston_afk: Rich did stop trying to support both the JVM and CLR early in the process of developing Clojure, the current CLR project is about a year old and led by someone else with Rich's encouragement. I don't know current activity/status. I think it may be waiting on CinC at this point
13:38	vegai	so my project.clj is (defproject hello "0.0.0" :description "hello" :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0"]] :main hello)
13:38	vegai	and src/hello.clj is (ns hello) (defn -main [& args] (println args))
13:38	joshua-choi	Licenser: Who created it?
13:38	vegai	lein deps work fine
13:38	vegai	lein jar works fine
13:39	Borkdude	replaca, on the page I read smth about VS2008
13:39	Borkdude	+SP1
13:39	vegai	is it wrong to try to run the resulting jar simply by saying java -jar hello.jar?
13:39	Borkdude	I guess that is .NET 3.5
13:39	vegai	because then I get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: hello
13:40	chouser	joshua-choi: hiredman wrote clojurebot. he has a bunch of responses to specific keywords, but uses a fuzzy matcher to look them up. he sometimes chimes in with an answer to something not addressed specifically to him.
13:40	chouser	clojurebot: time
13:40	clojurebot	what time \is it? is TIME TO GIT BUSY!
13:41	joshua-choi	clojurebot: time
13:41	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boy from the man.
13:41	Licenser	what time is it?
13:41	hiredman	,(java.util.Date.)
13:41	clojurebot	#<Date Fri Apr 23 10:44:44 PDT 2010>
13:42	Raynes	$time
13:42	sexpbot	Raynes: The time is now 2010-04-23T17:48:32Z
13:42	chouser	heh. mul-time-thods
13:42	joshua-choi	There's another bot?
13:42	joshua-choi	sexpbot: time
13:44	Raynes	Why do people always try that?
13:44	Raynes	:\
13:44	Raynes	$ <-- This is the prepend. The only prepend. Every single command uses this prepend. :p
13:44	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que estás diciendo.
13:44	chouser	Raynes: because that's how you address people on IRC.
13:44	joshua-choi	Raynes: I have no idea that sexpbot existed until two minutes ago. :)
13:45	technomancy	vegai: single-segment namespaces are unsupported
13:45	Raynes	chouser: Indeed, but it usually happens after they've seen somebody else use the prepend, which is weird.
13:45	Raynes	._.
13:45	joshua-choi	What does sexpbot do?
13:45	technomancy	vegai: see the skeleton created by "lein new hello" for a better example
13:45	technomancy	~single segment namespaces
13:45	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
13:45	Raynes	joshua-choi: He spies on clojurebot. Keeps him in line.
13:45	Raynes	$dumpcmds
13:45	sexpbot	http://gist.github.com/376874
13:45	joshua-choi	$addfortune
13:45	sexpbot	An invisible fortune cookie?
13:45	Raynes	He does all sorts of stuff. He's also in #clojure-casual and #(code) if anyone wants to play with him.
13:46	technomancy	clojurebot: single-segment namespaces (foo instead of foo.core) are unsupported. they may work in a few circumstances, but you shouldn't rely on them.
13:46	clojurebot	Foo is not Baz.
13:46	technomancy	clojurebot: single-segment namespaces are unsupported. (foo instead of foo.core) they may work in a few circumstances, but you shouldn't rely on them.
13:46	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
13:46	chouser	technomancy: "is" not "are" :-/
13:46	technomancy	clojurebot: single-segment namespaces is unsupported. (foo instead of foo.core) they may work in a few circumstances, but you shouldn't rely on them.
13:46	clojurebot	Ok.
13:46	technomancy	I thought he was clever like that
13:46	technomancy	oh well
13:47	Raynes	chouser: You shouldn't have used that one.
13:47	Raynes	:p
13:47	chouser	eh?
13:48	vegai	technomancy: ah, thanks.
13:48	joshua-choi	$what
13:48	sexpbot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
13:48	Raynes	chouser: title* isn't mean to be used. $title is a verbose version of the normal title scraper.
13:49	Raynes	And the $part and $say commands are admin-only. :>
13:49	chouser	I don't know what that means, I'm just trying out the list of commands you posted for us. :-)
13:50	Raynes	More dangerous and annoying commands like say, part, and join are limited to "admins", of sorts.
13:50	Raynes	A little privilege system.
13:51	Raynes	I need to update my verbose command list with explanations as to what they actually do.
13:51	Raynes	I've been focusing on making him useful rather than making him useful to other people. :p
13:52	chouser	rhickey: blame me
13:52	rhickey	did they always?
13:52	chouser	That may be as of chunked support
13:52	rhickey	or just after chunks?
13:52	chouser	is there a better way? I wasn't sure an extra closure would be preferred.
13:53	rhickey	dunno
13:53	Borkdude	rhickey: there was some discussion here about ClojureCLR - is it still under active development?
13:53	rhickey	Borkdude: afaik, yes
13:55	joshua-choi	On the datatypes page, it says, "You should always program to protocols or interfaces." Does this mean that using keywords on datatypes should be minimized in favor of using protocol methods?
13:55	remleduff	Hi all, this is a fun one. I'm using a JNA library call javaCV, whenever an object of type "IplImage" gets printed by the repl, my whole repl crashes with an error that looks something like "Can't cast java.lang.Object to com.sun.jna.Structure". Obviously a bug in the library, but is there some way I can ask the repl to not print the value of the object, to not even look at the object. It's tedious remembering not to call any f
13:55	Borkdude	rhickey: tnx
13:56	remleduff	I've tried something like (defmethod print-method cxcore$IplImage [x writer] (.write writer "Can't print Images")), but it prints that message and then crashes anyway
13:57	rhickey	joshua-choi: using keywords on datatypes is perfectly fine for: unencapsulated information, and trusted implementation code
13:58	joshua-choi	rhickey: Thanks.
13:59	chouser	rhickey: is there any action you'd like me to take on doseq or for? propose an alternate solution? back out chunked seq support?
13:59	rhickey	chouser: no, just mentioning it, don't want to change them just before new release :)
13:59	chouser	ok
14:07	bsteuber	anyone else using paredit on a slime repl? on my emacs, it behaves quite weird there (not in files) with [ oder {
14:08	joshua-choi	rhickey: Quick followup question: should I inform the user whether attributes of a datatype are "unencapsulated" in the datatype's docstring?
14:08	fogus	Did someone say "just before the new release"? ;-)
14:08	rhickey	joshua-choi: if you are using defrecord, I don't see a need personally
14:09	joshua-choi	Okay.
14:09	chouser	fogus: heh
14:16	chouser	rhickey: is 'show' ugly by it's very existence, or is there something I could do to make it prettier?
14:39	AWizzArd	Hi stuarthalloway
14:44	technomancy	stuarthalloway: thanks for all your work moving forward with the release. glad to have another committer to help.
14:50	jweiss	bsteuber: i use paredit on the repl
14:50	jweiss	yeah, it doesn't work quite right for me either with [ and {
14:50	jweiss	especially barf/slurp
14:52	bsteuber	jweiss: ah, good to know I'm not the only one
14:53	bsteuber	so I'll file a report then - or maybe a request, as maybe repl-use is not one of the promised features
14:53	jweiss	bsteuber: i am not sure what can be done about it, i would think if anyone knows the solution they're likely to be here in this channel
14:53	jweiss	bsteuber: i don't think it behaves quite right for me in editing clojure files either
14:53	bsteuber	maybe the user> prompt confused it
14:54	bsteuber	jweiss: the newest version does behave nice in files for me
14:54	jweiss	bsteuber: where did you get the latest, from elpa?
14:55	bsteuber	jweiss: http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.el
14:55	bsteuber	this is version 22, I think elpa has 21
14:56	jweiss	bsteuber: ah i have version 20
14:57	bsteuber	ic
14:58	remleduff	How hard is it to get whoever maintains ELPA to update a package? Is anything you get through ELPA doomed to obsolescence?
14:58	jweiss	bsteuber: i tried to install again thru elpa, still got ver 20
14:58	bsteuber	ok, then I was wrong regarding 21
14:58	jweiss	i'm kind of an emacs newbie, i have no idea
14:59	jweiss	i know ver 22 says beta so it's probably ver 21 that should be in elpa
14:59	jweiss	interestingly, ver 20 is 3 years old
15:00	jweiss	even the 'beta' is almost a year old
15:01	technomancy	remleduff: in this case it's blocked on the paredit maintainer
15:01	stuarthalloway	hi technomancy, AWizzard. Sorry silent earlier, was on too many meetings at once
15:03	AWizzArd	rhickey: when I have a (defrecord Foo [x y z]) then I can have (defn foo [{:keys [x y z]}] [z y x]). But when I have a (defprotocol Foobar (foo [f])) and want to (defrecord Foo [x y z] Foobar (foo [{:keys [x y z]}] [z y x])) then ==> clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
15:03	AWizzArd	stuarthalloway: no problem ^^
15:04	rhickey	AWizzArd: no destructuring in methods yet
15:04	AWizzArd	ok
15:08	AWizzArd	Anyone has an idea if this can be done with defrecord? http://pastie.org/932033
15:09	AWizzArd	Or does this require a deftype for which the fields will be mutated, and then just (recur) is called?
15:11	rhickey	AWizzArd: you must leave out 'this' on recur in methods, i.e. you can't recur to a different object
15:13	mmarczyk	stuarthalloway: re: issue #270 on Assembla, I don't think def + fn works correctly, see http://pastie.org/932041
15:14	AWizzArd	rhickey: so could this better be done with deftype + mutable fields? Because then we could just (recur) and reuse the existing object.
15:14	rhickey	AWizzArd: what are you trying to accomplish that the first version doesn't?
15:15	chouser	primitives
15:15	AWizzArd	I thought this could get faster when method calls can happen directly, vs. an ordinary function
15:15	AWizzArd	http://hughw.blogspot.com/2009/01/clojure-vs-javafx-script-only-5x-slower.html
15:16	chouser	AWizzArd: but your defrecord version creates and retruns a new object each time, while your first one returns only an integer
15:17	AWizzArd	eventually both versions will return z, which is an int
15:17	chouser	AWizzArd: you might try definterface to declare a method that takes ints, then implement that in a defrecord or deftype.
15:18	wooby	has anyone written a repl applet, or otherwise know if it's possible/done?
15:18	AWizzArd	chouser: could definterfaced methods use recur and still provide the first arg?
15:19	chouser	wooby: unsigned applets can't use a custom classloader needed to load dynamically-generated bytecode, so they can't do 'eval'
15:20	wooby	ah
15:20	chouser	wooby: but you should be able to make a signed applet repl
15:20	kylesmith	I think I may be experiencing an infinite loop with swank-clojure. The problem seems to be occurring in/around the following lines: (("LockingTransaction.java" 263) ("LockingTransaction.java" 231) ("swank.clj" 29) ("swank.clj" 26))
15:20	wooby	chouser, already started :)
15:20	chouser	wooby: there's bits of swing-repl code around you could use
15:20	kylesmith	Is this a known problem, or should I keep investigating?
15:21	wooby	chouser, thanks i'll scrounge
15:22	rhickey	AWizzArd: http://pastie.org/932058
15:24	rhickey	why pastie? no thread?
15:26	rhickey	AWizzArd: note that removing the unchecked- doesn't hurt perf, please don't use unchecked unless you need truncation
15:26	AWizzArd	rhickey: oh great, this runs 3x faster. Now with the type declarations this is very much on par with JavaFX.
15:26	AWizzArd	good, thanks for this hint
15:27	remleduff	Can you guys copy that to gist by any chance? pastie is blocked for me, "disease vector"
15:28	jwr7	I've been reading chouser's "Using binding to mock out even “direct linked” functions in Clojure" (http://blog.n01se.net/?p=134) and I started wondering — he says in Clojure 1.1 most clojure.core Vars are "linked directly" into code, which I assume means avoiding Var lookups,
15:28	rhickey	remleduff: http://gist.github.com/377040
15:28	jwr7	can I do the same thing for some of my functions?
15:28	jwr7	I have code which makes lots of function calls to functions that will not change and spends lots of time looking up Vars
15:28	jwr7	(checked with YourKit profiler)
15:29	AWizzArd	remleduff: this version of rhickey allows faster functions calls. As tak() is mostly a benchmark for funcall speed this had a nice impact.
15:29	AWizzArd	Interesting to see that Clojure provides tools for doing optimizations if one really needs it.
15:31	remleduff	Nice, I really like the way deftype and defrecord code "looks", now if only it was ^int instead of #^int everywhere ;)
15:31	chouser	jwr7: first, it's worth nothing that apparently profilers prevent Var from doing some of the performance tricks it does in real life. So it may look worse than it really is.
15:31	AWizzArd	remleduff: maybe soon Emacs users will have a visible/invisible switch for type hints (and possibly other stuff, such as hiding meta data, etc)
15:32	jwr7	chouser: even sampling profilers?
15:32	jwr7	(I use YourKit in sampling mode, which I assume does not redefine functions)
15:33	chouser	jwr7: as for doig direct linking yourself, there's no supported way to do that yet
15:33	chouser	but if you namespace starts with "clojure" and you don't have :dynamic true in your var's metadata, you'll get direct linking. Abuse at your own risk. :-)
15:33	livingston	my research is taking me in a direction where I need to interface with very large back-end triple-stores for RDF and OWL etc. (like AllegroGraph)...
15:33	jwr7	chouser: ok. I've been using macros for some of the most critical stuff for now, but that seems like a hack, and I can't use them with map and the like.
15:34	jwr7	chouser: speaking of hacks :-)
15:34	jwr7	chouser: thanks, I'll try that out.
15:34	chouser	jwr7: you can also use local functions (via let or letfn) to get faster function lookups, at the cost of unfavorable code reorganization
15:34	livingston	the most direct way to talk to RDF back-ends through java/clojure seems to be Jena, but that's a holy mess. any one have any experience or have done anything with it?
15:35	jwr7	chouser: I thought of that and actually used it in some places.
15:35	chouser	livingston: http://github.com/richhickey/rdfm
15:36	arohner	I'm thinking of putting this in contrib. Does anyone see value in it? http://gist.github.com/377054
15:36	chouser	livingston: I don't know that that's actually "maintained", but it might be interesting.
15:37	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/readerII/src/clj/clojure/reader.clj re: letfn
15:38	hiredman	arohner: that is useful
15:38	hiredman	maybe in macro-utils
15:39	arohner	hiredman: thanks. The process for contrib is the same as core? write a patch, file an assembla ticket?
15:39	livingston	chouser: thanks - that has some utilities that are definitely of use
15:40	jwr7	I wish I had a (binding) that wouldn't be thread-local — that would propagate to other threads started by, say, pmap.
15:40	livingston	although as far as I can tell that library is mostly for serializing and deserializing clojure data to/from an rdf store
15:40	livingston	but I can build on it to get more general reasoning...
15:40	hiredman	arohner: I believe so, I think might want to bounce it off the mailing list before filing a ticket
15:42	livingston	since rdf uri's are namespace + resource this seems like they should just be mapped to clojure packages + symbols
15:43	hiredman	namespaces
15:44	livingston	I meant clojure namespaces - thank you
15:46	livingston	one threat of such an approach is after running through a lot of data there will be a ton of symbols hanging out in the symbol table that are no longer needed - generating memory issues
15:47	livingston	(when I did this in common lisp, I didn't actually have a real problem from that, but I'm looking at dealing with orders of magnitude more data now)
15:49	jwr7	livingston: I hit a similar problem when doing genetic programming in CL: generated random constants were interned symbols and caused performance problems. Not even because of memory consumption, but because of namespace lookup times.
15:49	hiredman	interned java strings in utf-16
15:50	livingston	jwr7: I never had a problem with that but I was using ACL and they make a very good compiler. you could also keep the symbols out of the symbol table too.
15:51	AWizzArd	hiredman: if i would like to display U+1D11E - how would I do this then?
15:52	AWizzArd	or some chinese chars, such as U+024B62
15:52	jwr7	livingston: I was using SBCL. Amusingly enough, mostly because ACL's compiler had a bug that my code triggered (and that was too difficult to report properly to Franz).
15:53	livingston	hiredman: the thing is when working with this kind of stuff, it's really nice to be able to drop into the representation language while you are coding and just cons up some expressions using lisp and rdf (or whatever) so if it's all symbols it's nice and clean, instead of these string everywhere, like you get when manipulating things like sql (yuck).
15:53	livingston	jwr7: that's a shame. they are very responsive about stuff like that, generally
15:55	hiredman	AWizzArd: I dunno, google up some java unicode docs
15:55	jwr7	livingston: oh, they WERE responsive. Franz has the best support I've ever dealt with. It's just that if they can't reproduce a problem, it might sometimes be too much work for you to narrow it down and produce an example.
15:56	livingston	jwr7: ah, that's a shame
15:57	Chousuke	jwr7: I think you can simulate the non-thread-local binding by using alter-var-root
15:57	hiredman	AWizzArd: you might checkout the javadoc on Character since it goes into more detail
15:57	hiredman	Chousuke: :(
15:57	hiredman	jwr7: don't alter vars
15:57	arohner	how do you combine ~@ and foo#?
15:58	Chousuke	don't. use an explicit gensym
15:59	remleduff	Can someone help me understand how lazy-seq works? I'm feeling kind of silly but it's stumping me
15:59	arohner	Chousuke: how do I use that in a let?
16:00	Chousuke	(defmacro ... (let [foo (gensym)] `(let [~foo (somestuff)] ...)))
16:00	mmarczyk	arohner: what would you want to use it for, anyway?
16:00	mmarczyk	~@ splices in a seq and foo# is a symbol, not a seq
16:00	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
16:00	Licenser	meep
16:01	Chousuke	~@
16:01	mmarczyk	sorry to disturb you, clojurebot
16:01	clojurebot	@ , {a b c]
16:01	Chousuke	uh
16:01	Chousuke	~@
16:01	clojurebot	@ is splicing unquote
16:01	Chousuke	~@
16:01	clojurebot	@ , {a b c]
16:01	Chousuke	looks like someone else got some garbage there too :)
16:03	jwr7	Chousuke, hiredman: just to explain — I don't want to alter vars, but I do have legitimate uses for (binding). And I just fell into a trap, because I thought I can switch any map to pmap and have it work, which is not the case.
16:03	arohner	Chousuke: thanks
16:04	hiredman	,(doc bound-fn)
16:04	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:04	hiredman	bah
16:04	mmarczyk	jwr7: see bound-fn
16:04	mmarczyk	and bound-fn*
16:05	mmarczyk	actually the latter may be more useful when you've already go a regular function
16:05	mmarczyk	and you want to transform it into one which captures bindings
16:05	hiredman	right, since clojurebot is being run from a lein repl it has been bitten by the using the wrong version of clojure bug
16:05	jwr7	mmarczyk: ahh, cool, thanks!
16:05	hiredman	since map is lazy you can have trouble with it and binding even without going multithreaded
16:05	hiredman	best not to use binding
16:07	mmarczyk	,(binding [inc dec] (map inc (range 3)))
16:07	clojurebot	(-1 0 1)
16:08	remleduff	,print-limit
16:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: print-limit in this context
16:08	mmarczyk	,(binding [inc dec] (map #(inc %) (range 3)))
16:08	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
16:08	mmarczyk	I mean
16:08	chouser	~stuartsierra has come to the conclusion that dynamic scope is a bug.
16:08	remleduff	,print-lenth
16:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: print-lenth in this context
16:08	clojurebot	Roger.
16:09	remleduff	,print-length
16:09	clojurebot	nil
16:09	hiredman	haha
16:09	remleduff	Man, I cannot type
16:09	mmarczyk	there is certainly some merit to that opinion :-)
16:09	hiredman	clojurebot: stuartsierra \|has come\| to the conclusion that dynamic scope is a bug.
16:09	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
16:10	hiredman	clojurebot: stuartsierra?
16:10	clojurebot	stuartsierra is awesome
16:10	hiredman	clojurebot: stuartsierra?
16:10	clojurebot	stuartsierra is retiring
16:10	hiredman	clojurebot: stuartsierra?
16:10	clojurebot	stuartsierra is retiring
16:10	hiredman	bah
16:10	chouser	clojurebot: dynamic scope
16:10	clojurebot	stuartsierra has come to the conclusion that dynamic scope is a bug.
16:10	StartsWithK	in art of the interpreter there is a sentance that says dynamic scope is a bug :)
16:11	hiredman	makes sense to me
16:12	livingston	in the right contexts it's hugely valuable, if you need to go through layers of some other api to get to something low that needs tweaked, binding makes sense to me
16:12	hiredman	I think the main use should be the ability to simmulate multiple returns, not resource management
16:13	hiredman	(with-database ...) sort of stuff is horrible
16:14	livingston	hiredman: why? the alternative is to have parameters to pass all over the place
16:14	jwr7	Oh, there is another use case. Say you walk a webapp tree and need to keep track of which uri-tokens are consumed and which remain (the URI path gets split into 'tokens'). Dynamic variables do half of the work for you.
16:14	hiredman	livingston: parameter passing? in functional programming? horrible!
16:14	livingston	actually usually I would have the parameters anyway with defaults, and then things like (with-foo would over-ride the defaults
16:16	livingston	it is when the parameter is some kind of state holding mess like these things are usually used for, then all kinds of state and parameters start leaking all over in your code
16:16	hiredman	leaking?
16:17	livingston	the best examples are when you have your app, talking to some library that has something else you plugged into it under the hood. now you want to change that thing under the hood, you either need to rewrite the whole library to allow that (assuming it's even your library to rewrite) or you can reach down into the thing under the hood and tweak it
16:18	mmarczyk	jwr7: or you could put an atom in a local and use a zipper to walk the tree with a function which accepts an atom arg
16:18	hiredman	livingston: I don't see how the one follows the other
16:19	remleduff	,(binding [print-length 3] [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8])
16:19	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]
16:19	StartsWithK	i don't know, i find it a mess to type (with-open [x bla] (with-out-str [y x] (fn-with-implicit-out-str)))
16:19	mmarczyk	,(binding [print-length 3] (print-str [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]))
16:19	clojurebot	"[1 2 3 ...]"
16:19	StartsWithK	when i could just pass out-str as first argument or in options map
16:19	jwr7	jwr7: amusingly enough, I actually use this technique with a zipped tree :-) I didn't think of your solution, I thought of passing more things around when walking the zipper. But I didn't want to manage popping things when moving up the tree myself — and a dynamic variable fit right in.
16:20	hiredman	if you have an api, and the api has an init state function that returns a state cookie the only things that should be directly manipulating that state cookie are the other functions in that api
16:20	remleduff	mmarczyk: Thanks
16:21	hiredman	so a change to the state cookie may require a refactor of parts of the api, but users of the api would not be effected, since the state cookie is "opaque" to them
16:21	mmarczyk	jwr7: I'd rather use an atom for that :-)
16:21	mmarczyk	in fact, I can imagine walking subtrees of a single tree in separate threads
16:22	hiredman	have I mentioned monads yet?
16:22	mmarczyk	in which case maybe a ref
16:22	mmarczyk	would do best
16:22	livingston	sometimes you can't refactor because your not calling it, for example
16:22	livingston	or not controlling the thing that is doing the calling
16:22	hiredman	livingston: that sounds like a tangled mess
16:22	mmarczyk	hiredman: no, but this conversation does make one think about them
16:23	mmarczyk	it's a fact of life, though, that monadic style is very different from the usual present-day Clojure style
16:24	jwr7	FWIW, my zipper tree walking smells of monads, but I couldn't understand them well enough to actually use the ones in clojure-contrib.
16:26	sattvik	rhickey: /who
16:26	mmarczyk	hi sattvik :-)
16:26	livingston	hiredman: frequently it can be used to overcome something done bad, but there are many legitimate uses, look at specials / defspecial in common lisp
16:27	hiredman	livingston: I'd rather not look at common lisp
16:27	sattvik	mmarczyk: Hello.
16:28	sattvik	rhickey: Does it make sense for a Vec to be comparable against a non-IPersistentVector, such as a Sequential?
16:28	Luyt	,(doc print-length)
16:28	clojurebot	"; print-length controls how many items of each collection the printer will print. If it is bound to logical false, there is no limit. Otherwise, it must be bound to an integer indicating the maximum number of items of each collection to print. If a collection contains more items, the printer will print items up to the limit followed by '...' to represent the remaining items. The root binding is nil indicating no limit."
16:29	rhickey	sattvik: yes
16:30	rhickey	sattvik: collection equality is divided into sequentials, sets, and maps
16:32	sattvik	rhickey: OK, thank you. I will implement it that way. Although it will be somewhat different than vectors, then.
16:32	sattvik	,(compare [1 2] (range 1 2))
16:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentVector
16:33	rhickey	sattvik: sorry, not comparable, just equality
16:33	rhickey	Vec should mimic vectors
16:34	sattvik	rhickey: Ah, OK. No problem. So, Vec should only be comparable against other IPersistentVectors, correct?
16:35	rhickey	sattvik: yes
16:36	sattvik	rhickey: Thank you.
16:36	hiredman	rhickey: ooo
16:37	mmarczyk	rhickey: wow :-)
16:37	Borkdude	Hmm, I have installed VS2008 SP1 now for sure, upgraded to .NET Framework 4.0 but still I keep getting this err msg
16:38	Borkdude	The Namespace Dynamic does not exist in the namespace System
16:38	sattvik	So annotations are coming to Clojure? I did some simple-class level annotations on an Clojure/EJB library, but I never tried field or method annotations.
16:38	Borkdude	and I do have references to the dlls described on the ClojureCLR page
16:39	technomancy	every time I hear about annotations, it's for use with netty; what other kinds of things are they useful for?
16:40	StartsWithK	jpa, jax-rs..
16:40	sattvik	technomancy: Most of the Java EE stuff uses annotations these days to replace XML.
16:40	StartsWithK	for jpa you would also need inner classes
16:40	livingston	technomancy: in a language without real macros you can get some macro-like things out of them
16:40	Borkdude	I have come across annotations in JUnit and GWT
16:40	Borkdude	this week
16:40	technomancy	so for various three-letter acronyms then?
16:40	technomancy	=)
16:40	rhickey	livingston: more like metadata than macros
16:41	mattrepl	Guice is another
16:41	Borkdude	so maybe for ClojureGWT ;-)
16:43	hiredman	you can put metadataish stuff on other stuff, and a processor can read the metadata and do codegen stuff
16:43	livingston	rhickey: mostly yes, but I've seen some crazy things done with them in java, for example: in a system called UIMA you build plug-in modules for text processing, when UIMA calls your module you can query it for a bunch of parameters, and there is a lot of boilerplate for that...
16:44	rhickey	livingston: that has to do with their interpretation by frameworks, the language facility is just metadata-like
16:44	livingston	.. so the thing I saw was something like @parameter String Foo or something, and it would manage all the boiler plate for requesting the foo paramater and getting it typed if it was there etc.
16:45	Borkdude	Hmm, this week someone gave me a JDO demo, it used a lot of annotations, it looked useful to me
16:45	livingston	personally I think that seems like a bit of an abomination, and they seem to make most sense as metadata
16:47	cemerick	rhickey: the protocol docs are wrong in showing parens around overloaded method signatures.
16:47	cemerick	in assembla, that is
16:48	rhickey	the assembla docs are over
16:48	Borkdude	but the same thing could be done with metadata in clojure probably
16:49	sattvik	I am guessing that if Clojure did support annotations, that might help some of the EE crowd adopt it. It would make it easier to plug into an existing system.
16:49	cemerick	rhickey: sorry, didn't notice the header
16:49	hiredman	Borkdude: it all ready sort of is, like with type hints, etc
16:49	hiredman	the main things annotation support is nice for are interop
16:50	Borkdude	Can someone help me build ClojureCLR and get this annoying msg out of the way?
16:50	rhickey	(deftype #^{Deprecated true Retention RetentionPolicy/RUNTIME} Bar [])
16:50	rhickey	^^ works on my machine
16:50	Borkdude	The type or namespace name 'Dynamic' does not exist in the namespace 'System'
16:50	livingston	I stand corrected, that code apparently mines the annotations to do the work that I thought just placing the annotation was doing (i thought they could behave like templates), but that's not the case at all
16:50	remleduff	rhickey: If you consider the annotation processing framework part of "annotations" it ends up being somewhat similar to a macro facility for java in some of the ways it's used, no?
16:51	rhickey	remleduff: I personally would never equate the two
16:52	remleduff	I've got a few places where there is no concrete class definition, just an interface with some methods marked up with annotations, at compile time a class is generated based on that markup
16:52	cemerick	rhickey: is destructuring going to eventually be allowed in deftype/defrecord method arg vectors?
16:53	rhickey	cemerick: maybe
16:53	rhickey	it's on an ever lengthening list
16:53	stuarthalloway	rhickey: java.util.Map for defrecord is DONE, with no Java changes :-)
16:54	stuarthalloway	https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/313-add-java-util-map-support-to-defrecord
16:54	stuarthalloway	turns out there is enough clojure-in-clojure in defrecord to do it all as one-liners
17:01	technomancy	anyone who's contributed to swank-clojure but may not be on the mailing list should weigh in on this relicensing thread: http://groups.google.com/group/swank-clojure/browse_thread/thread/3ae8f2c2ad46bbc5
17:03	remleduff	stuarthalloway: Since you're using java interop calls (.count) in your ijavamap, should the IPersistentMap switch to doing it the same way? It seems odd to me that the implementations would be different, but I'm probably not understanding something.
17:04	stuarthalloway	remleduff: I am counting on this, while it looks like IPM is counting on other things
17:12	kzar	When I try and use the lower-case function in str-utils it says the function isn't public. What am I doing wrong?
17:19	remleduff	,(clojure.contrib.str-utils2/lower-case "ABC")
17:19	clojurebot	"abc"
17:20	remleduff	Is there a function somewhere in swank-clojure that will given a class-name, give you a list of possible imports for that class (found by searching your classpath)?
17:20	kzar	Oh I got it working, I just did (.toLowerCase "Whatever") instead
17:31	rhickey	annotation syntax: http://gist.github.com/377213
17:31	rhickey	make sense?
17:34	mefesto	rhickey: i like it :)
17:35	mefesto	im guessing exactly the same at the method definition level?
17:35	sattvik	rhickey: So it's just like the standard meta map, just with Class keys?
17:35	sattvik	rhickey: How about nested annotations?
17:36	rhickey	sattvik: theoretically supported, do you know of one in standard Java 6?
17:36	mefesto	i think jpa has nested annotations (named query?)
17:36	remleduff	How do you mix annotations and type hints?
17:37	sattvik	rhickey: I know of some for EJBs... It will take a moment to look them up. I am not sure aboute Java SE.
17:37	rhickey	will look like {BlahAnnotation {:anested (NestedAnnotation {:its property})}}
17:38	rhickey	remleduff: just put both in the metadata
17:38	rhickey	remleduff: {:tag String AnnotationType blah}
17:38	carkh	\o/ annotations !
17:39	remleduff	Are you respecting default property values too?
17:39	rhickey	remleduff: yup
17:40	remleduff	Neat ;)
17:40	mefesto	looks like there are some nested annotations in the javax.xml.ws package. (ex. WebServiceRefs)
17:40	carkh	too bad i approached the jvm from clojure so i don't know anything about these.... are there annotations for methods as well ?
17:41	remleduff	carkh: There are annotations on nearly everything: on types, methods, parameters
17:42	carkh	looks like i'll spend the evebning reading about all that
17:42	remleduff	rhickey: Will the clojure or java compiler spit out a message now if you use a type's method marked Deprecated?
17:42	rhickey	remleduff: no
17:44	arohner	Chousuke: I can't get your gensym trick from earlier to work: http://gist.github.com/377226
17:47	rhickey	remleduff: thanks - nested looks like this: http://gist.github.com/377213
17:47	rhickey	sorry, sattvik - nested ^^
17:48	Chousuke	arohner: um, only lists can be spliced
17:49	arohner	Chousuke: what do I have there?
17:49	Borkdude	rhickey: what version of the DLR was used with the latest clojure-clr sources?
17:49	Chousuke	arohner: a symbol
17:49	remleduff	What is (WebServiceRef {:name "fred"}), a function invocation?
17:49	Chousuke	arohner: ~@foo makes no sense unless foo is a list or a vector
17:49	rhickey	Borkdude: you'll have to ask the ClojureCLR folks
17:50	rhickey	remleduff: a nested annotation
17:50	Borkdude	rhickey: where are they hanging out usually
17:50	Borkdude	?
17:50	arohner	Chousuke: isn't foo a symbol that resolves to a list?
17:51	rhickey	Borkdude: you could ask on ggroup
17:51	Chousuke	arohner: no.
17:51	Borkdude	k
17:51	remleduff	Just looks a little inconsistent to me, why isn't it #^{(Deprecated true) (Retention RetentionPolicy/RUNTIME)} if they're going to use lists when nested?
17:52	Chousuke	arohner: what you're doing there is generating a symbol first, binding it to the name foo, then generating code that binds the generated symbol to a list
17:53	sattvik	rhickey: Looks good. Although a map-like syntax may be slightly more natural for people coming from Java.
17:53	arohner	Chousuke: ok. So then how would I splice the generated symbol?
17:53	Chousuke	arohner: but the list is not available to you when you're actually generating the code to make the list. (think about it) ... so you can't splice it in
17:53	arohner	ah
17:54	remleduff	rhickey: I don't think it makes a big difference though, I haven't seen nested annotations enough to worry about so consider that retracted. I like it a lot :)
17:54	sattvik	rhickey: An example of nested annotations in Java: @Resources ({@Resource(name="jdbc/AdventureDB" type=javax.sql.DataSource),
17:55	Chousuke	arohner: what you can do is generate code that does something to the list; but you can't actually put the list in the generated code because that would be circular :P
17:55	sattvik	Though, in the end, exactly how it looks is rather trivial.
17:56	arohner	Chousuke: ok, thanks. I'll need to re-think this
17:56	Chousuke	arohner: though your example isn't probably the clearest about this because the list is basically a constant
17:56	arohner	one sec, I'll paste what I actually want
17:57	Chousuke	arohner: if you can think of a macro as function of its parameters, producing clojure code, that will help
17:57	Chousuke	what ` is doing is nothing more than building a list, with some templating support
17:57	arohner	http://gist.github.com/377232
17:58	licoresse	flip flop
17:58	Chousuke	you could do it entirely without using ` or ~ or ~@
17:59	Chousuke	arohner: why do you want to evaluate the args like that?
17:59	Chousuke	hmm
17:59	arohner	Chousuke: in case the input is a function call
17:59	Chousuke	what input? the 'args'? hm.
18:00	remleduff	Is there any way to make this work? (map #(import %) [java.util.zip.ZipFile])
18:00	Chousuke	what you want is probably not possible without eval
18:00	Chousuke	at least not the way you're trying to do it
18:01	Chousuke	arohner: but the important mistake here is that you're trying to splice things that are part of the generated code into the generated code itself.
18:01	Chousuke	no, wait. you're trying to splice results of evaluating the generated code into the generated code.
18:03	arohner	Chousuke: seems like I need another eval step
18:03	arohner	Chousuke: is this a case for eval?
18:04	Chousuke	now you can do something like (defmacro foo [args] (let [a (if (fn-form? args) (eval args) args)] `(defn ~@args ...)))
18:04	Chousuke	honestly, probably not.
18:04	Chousuke	it will fail if you try to pass anything but a literal fn form
18:04	Chousuke	hmhm
18:05	Chousuke	what kind of code are you aspiring to write using this macro?
18:05	Chousuke	also, should be ~@a in the example
18:06	arohner	(defmacro defn-map
18:06	arohner	"generates a defn expression, but arguments are a map, to make it
18:06	arohner	easier on macro writers. Valid keys: name, doc-string, attr-map,
18:06	arohner	params, body. If params is nil, then body is a multi-arity
18:06	arohner	expression, ([params] body)+ "
18:06	arohner	this seems to work well with eval
18:06	Chousuke	should be no need for eval for that
18:07	Chousuke	unless you want to accept non-literal maps as well
18:07	Chousuke	which would be rather evil
18:08	arohner	well I also have
18:08	arohner	(defmacro decompose-defn-args
18:08	arohner	"interprets args the way defn would, returns a map that can be consumed by defn-map"
18:08	arohner	so yes, I want to support non-literal maps
18:08	Chousuke	hmmh :/
18:11	Chousuke	I really don't think that's a very good idea.
18:12	Chousuke	you might just as well make it a function that constructs and evals a defn form then
18:12	Chousuke	no need for macros
18:14	arohner	Chousuke: why don't you think it's a good idea?
18:16	Chousuke	arohner: I guess I just don't see what that is useful for
18:16	arohner	Chousuke: it makes it significantly easier to write macros that call defn, and want to support all the extra features of defn
18:17	Chousuke	arohner: I can see explicitly naming each defn parameter being useful, but why must it work for non-literal maps?
18:17	arohner	so I can do things like
18:18	arohner	(let [arg-map (update-in (destructure-args input-args) [:attr-map] merge ...)] (defn-map)
18:18	arohner	I want to update-in whatever the user passed in
18:20	Chousuke	hmh
18:21	Chousuke	I still don't see it. you can write a parser for defn args -> map and map -> defn-args and that would be very useful for macro writers, but there would be no need for eval or any "runtime" maps as far as I can tell
18:22	fyuryu	Borkdude: I managed to get ClojureCLR to compile under VS 2008 a month or two ago. Haven't looked at it since.
18:22	cemerick	holy crap, annotations?!?
18:23	fyuryu	Borkdude: I couldn't get it to compile under VS 2010, though. Don't remember what the error was
18:24	Chousuke	arohner: I mean, if you write a (defn mydefn [argvec] ...) you can update the argvec in any way you want
18:24	Chousuke	arohner: it's still just a vector
18:25	arohner	Chousuke: yes, but defn has to support doc-string? attr-map?
18:25	arohner	I don't know which position is the attr-map unless I destructure first
18:25	arohner	or write a macro as long as defn
18:25	Chousuke	destructure?
18:26	Chousuke	well you can distill all the weird logic in defn into your defn-args -> map function
18:27	Chousuke	and when you are done manipulating the map, do the reverse and then just `(defn ~@(map-to-defn themap))
18:27	Chousuke	that way, there's no need for eval
18:28	Chousuke	your map-to-defn just needs to produce a sequence that, when spliced in, result in a valid defn form.
18:29	Chousuke	results*
18:29	MadWombat	Hello
18:29	arohner	,(doc defn)
18:29	arohner	Chousuke: inspect the args, and figure out whether there is a doc string, and whether there is a metadata map
18:29	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata"
18:30	MadWombat	I have a rather silly question. One of my files has been growing large, so I split it and used (:use [com.wombat.web util datastore]) to import the functions back into the main namespace. But now I get an error that the defun I defined in util is not available. Any obvious thing to check?
18:30	Chousuke	arohner: right?
18:31	mmarczyk	arohner: you could just lift the code from defn
18:31	Chousuke	arohner: you need a parser of defn-args -> map and vice versa
18:31	mmarczyk	leave the bindings vector in the huge let form intact
18:31	Chousuke	arohner: but that's a one-time thing
18:31	arohner	I already have the parser
18:31	arohner	that was easy :-)
18:31	mmarczyk	but instead of producing a def form, return a map of stuff extracted from "defn-like args"
18:31	mmarczyk	make that a function
18:32	mmarczyk	use in any macro which needs to provide similar functionality
18:32	arohner	Chousuke: mmarczyk : I think I understand. thanks
18:32	arohner	Chousuke: thanks for your help. I have to run
18:33	mmarczyk	MadWombat: see if util depends on sth in datastore or the other way around
18:33	Chousuke	right, so now you have a function that you can use in any macro... (defmacro foo [& args] (let [parsed (parse args)] `(defn ~(:name parsed) ...)))
18:34	mmarczyk	MadWombat: actually the other way around would be more likely given your description
18:42	MadWombat	mmarczyk: hmm... no, separately util and datastore compile fine
18:45	livingston	what's the function to change the root value of a def (I know this is dangerous - I'm debugging in the repl)
18:45	mmarczyk	MadWombat: does the error arise somewhere where use use or require the com.wombat.web namespace?
18:45	mmarczyk	^ where you use or require
18:46	mmarczyk	livingston: you mean a Var? use the .bindRoot method
18:46	mmarczyk	or alter-var-root
18:46	mmarczyk	which is like alter / swap! / send
18:46	livingston	yeah, I guess so, whatever def produces which is a var, right? so yeah alter-var-root sounds good
18:47	mmarczyk	if you're just going to type it at the repl, you can of course just use def again
18:48	livingston	good point
18:51	MadWombat	mmarczyk: I think I made a mistake in the question, to make things clear, I have 3 namespaces all starting with com.wombat.web, main, util and datastore. When I use the util from main and try to call a function it is not recognized
18:52	MadWombat	mmarczyk: figured it out, I had all functions defined with (defn-, so once they moved away from the original namespace they went inaccessible. Thought it was something silly. Thanks for the help, funny, how you answer most of my clojure questions everywhere I post them :)
18:54	mmarczyk	do I? happy to help :-)
18:55	mmarczyk	good this one is sorted out
18:55	slyphon	mmarczyk: oh, i found another bug
18:55	slyphon	(this is hard)
18:55	mmarczyk	slyphon: I was kind of thinking there might be one
18:55	slyphon	:)
18:55	mmarczyk	let's see if you've got the same one
18:55	mmarczyk	:-)
18:56	slyphon	well, &env isn't defined in some contexts
18:56	slyphon	like, when initially compiling
18:56	mmarczyk	um
18:56	slyphon	i think
18:56	slyphon	lemme try
18:56	mmarczyk	do you have a not-working example?
18:56	slyphon	make sure
18:56	slyphon	heh
18:56	slyphon	one sec
18:57	mmarczyk	incidentally, I realised that an unmention part of the contract for the last version
18:57	mmarczyk	is that if a map literal is passed in, then all the keys must be literal keywords or symbols
18:58	slyphon	hrm
18:58	mmarczyk	if symbols, they'll be treated just like keywords, meaning their names will be used
18:58	slyphon	oh, heh
18:58	slyphon	well
18:58	mmarczyk	is this a problem?
18:58	slyphon	i'm kind of willing to risk that
18:58	slyphon	;)
18:58	slyphon	nah, shouldn't be
18:58	slyphon	Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: &env in this context (utils.clj:254)
18:58	mmarczyk	good :-)
18:58	mmarczyk	hm, interesting
18:58	mmarczyk	could you paste the code which causes this somewhere?
18:58	slyphon	sure
18:59	slyphon	one sec
19:02	Borkdude	fyuryu: ah
19:02	Borkdude	I'm still wrestling with it, but can't get it to work
19:02	Borkdude	I'm almost giving up...
19:03	Borkdude	Visual Studio is so annoying: it gives hints to add a using System.Dynamic; when I remove it, and when it has added it, says: I don't know where it is
19:05	livingston	so if I have java code that gives me an Iterator, what's the easiest way to get it to be a seq in clojure? iterator-seq ??
19:05	carkh	,(doc iterator-seq)
19:05	clojurebot	"([iter]); Returns a seq on a java.util.Iterator. Note that most collections providing iterators implement Iterable and thus support seq directly."
19:06	mmarczyk	do I understand correctly that java.util.Iterator doesn't implement Iterable?
19:06	livingston	collections implement iterable
19:06	mmarczyk	so an ArrayList is Iterable, whereas an Iterator isn't?
19:07	mmarczyk	I find this somewhat contrary to my initial naive expectations :-)
19:10	rhickey	fuller annotation syntax example: http://gist.github.com/377213
19:10	livingston	mmarczyk: yes
19:11	Borkdude	hmm, I did (read-line) on the repl
19:12	Borkdude	how do I end the input to it??
19:12	mmarczyk	Borkdude: would that be the SLIME repl?
19:12	Borkdude	yes
19:12	mmarczyk	then read & Co. won't work :-(
19:12	mmarczyk	with current swank-clojure
19:13	Borkdude	it is reading
19:13	Borkdude	supposedl
19:13	Borkdude	but I don't know how to say: this is it
19:13	chessguy	is 'eval' pretty expensive to call in clojure?
19:14	slyphon	mmarczyk: http://github.com/slyphon/sly-utils
19:14	slyphon	probably doesn't warrant a proper repository, but i mean, wth
19:14	slyphon	lein repl, (require '[com.slyphon.utils [update-bean :as ub]]) will cause the barfage
19:14	slyphon	mmarczyk: if you have an account, i'll add you as a contributor
19:16	mmarczyk	I do, michalmarczyk
19:16	slyphon	mmarczyk: are you polish, perchance?
19:17	mmarczyk	yes
19:17	slyphon	ok, you're a "contributor"
19:17	mmarczyk	right
19:17	slyphon	my best friend from high school is polish, that's why i asked
19:17	mmarczyk	:-)
19:18	livingston	slyphon: the vowel to consonant ratio didn't tip you off
19:18	mmarczyk	livingston: hm? should it?
19:19	mmarczyk	slyphon: right, but do you have an actual breaking example?
19:19	slyphon	livingston: hah
19:19	livingston	mmarczyk: well that and the "czyk"
19:19	slyphon	oh
19:19	slyphon	mmarczyk: it won't even load that
19:20	mmarczyk	slyphon: oh, ok; let me see then
19:20	slyphon	http://github.com/slyphon/sly-utils/blob/master/src/com/slyphon/utils/update_bean.clj
19:20	clojurebot	() invokes the form inside, but there is an implied str call. The semantics are different inside the interpolated string, necessarily so.
19:20	slyphon	clojurebot: huh?
19:20	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:20	slyphon	:D
19:21	mmarczyk	rhickey: so any metadata entry with a class for a key would be made accessible to Java code in the form of an annotation?
19:21	mmarczyk	wherever possible, right?
19:21	mmarczyk	livingston: guess you're right :-)
19:21	rhickey	mmarczyk: the class has to derive from Annotation
19:21	rhickey	i.e. be an annotation
19:21	mmarczyk	rhickey: oh, ok
19:22	slyphon	mmarczyk: hey, you gonna be around for a bit?
19:23	slyphon	mmarczyk: food just got here
19:23	mmarczyk	so a separate annotations collection in the metadata under a :annotations key wouldn't make much sense, because an Annotation derivee isn't likely to be used for any other purpose, so no need to wrap them
19:23	mmarczyk	slyphon: probably
19:23	slyphon	:)
19:24	slyphon	cool, i'll bbiab
19:25	Chousuke	clojurebot: forget ()
19:25	clojurebot	forget latest is 1382
19:25	Chousuke	duh. :P
19:27	scottj	I've started writing a smalltalk style method finder where you give it an example of how you'd use the method (inputs and result) and it tells you what clojure functions or Java methods in the system fit the bill. Before I get too far though I wanted to check, has anyone written this already?
19:28	Chousuke	possibly for java, but probably not for clojure
19:29	chessguy	a hoogle for clojure?
19:30	dnolen	scottj: no, that sounds pretty cool.
19:31	mmarczyk	scottj: not that I know of, and I can tell you I'd definitely want to use it :-)
19:34	mmarczyk	slyphon: I pushed a fix
19:34	chessguy	is 'eval' pretty expensive to call in clojure? e.g., i know it's discouraged in javascript. i'm just not sure if lisp is similar
19:35	scottj	chessguy: never seen hoogle, from its docs about type signatures, does it not support giving true as result and "goof" and "oo" and getting back .contains ? that's more specific than str -> str
19:35	mmarczyk	slyphon: the problem was in that you're using Clojure 1.1 and &env was added more recently
19:36	joshua-choi	Question: how should I refer to a protocol in another namespace? Both org.me/AProtocol and org.me.Protocol are defined, but one is a map and one is a class (or interface?).
19:36	mmarczyk	scottj: so would you actually go ahead and call each candidate method / fn to see if the result matches?
19:36	scottj	dnolen: I want to take the smalltalk method finder to the next level and have it come up with common combinations of functions/methods (tell you to use filter w/ a certain predicate)
19:37	mmarczyk	chessguy: not that expensive in those places where it's actually appropriate to use it
19:37	scottj	mmarczyk: that's what I'm doing right now. I made a list of functions that are dangerous to do that with :)
19:38	chessguy	mmarczyk, an appropriately vague answer for a vague question :)
19:38	mmarczyk	chessguy: see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2571401/why-exactly-is-eval-evil
19:38	livingston	how do I quote a static function in a java class so that I can apply it? this works (Triple/create a b c) but (apply Triple/create (list a b c)) doesn't
19:40	rhickey	joshua-choi: use org.me/AProtocol to refer to the protocol object
19:40	_rata_	hi
19:40	rhickey	joshua-choi: the interface is just for Java
19:40	_rata_	is there a quick starting guide for people that comes from other Lisp?
19:40	sattvik	livingston: Create an anonymous function #(. obj fn args)
19:41	sattvik	,(map #(. %1 charAt 0) ["hi" "there"])
19:41	clojurebot	(\h \t)
19:41	sattvik	Eh, that's not a static function, but should work more or less the same.
19:41	scottj	_rata_: I think wikibook clojure programming used to have a table that detailed some diffs, and rhickey gave a clojure for lisp preso that's on clojure.blip.tv
19:42	scottj	I saw a big table that compared a lot of things in emacslisp, common lisp, scheme, and clojure. It was really big, did anyone bookmark that?
19:42	livingston	that's ugly/unfortunate, but ok
19:42	livingston	scottj: http://hyperpolyglot.wikidot.com/lisp
19:43	scottj	livingston: thanks
19:43	dnolen	_rata_: I assume you already looked over http://clojure.org/lisps
19:43	livingston	I happend to have it open - i don't think it's totally great, but it'll give you a few quick pointers
19:43	sattvik	,(map #(. Integer parseInt %1) ["1" "2"])
19:43	clojurebot	(1 2)
19:43	_rata_	thank you all :)
19:43	uberjar	http://www.lisperati.com/clojure-spels/casting.html
19:44	_rata_	I have a lot to read now :)
19:44	uberjar	thats clojure's poigant guide
19:45	mmarczyk	scottj: you could still do some initial filtering based on argument & result types
19:46	scottj	mmarczyk: for java methods yeah, for clojure functions though, other than obvious arity things?
19:47	mmarczyk	you could check if there's any type hints
19:47	rhickey	initial annotation support is up!
19:47	rhickey	bulk of the work is 50 lines of Clojure - http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/fa899d22dceb531d9f5af833ac6af0d956e6bdc7
19:47	mmarczyk	cool :-)
19:47	mmarczyk	rhickey: is it possible to get at the type hints on a function's arguments?
19:48	joshua-choi	rhickey: Thanks. However, you cannot refer to a type by org.me/Type. Is this by design?
19:49	scottj	other than looking at the source :)
19:49	mmarczyk	oh, ok
19:49	mmarczyk	I found out myself
19:49	slyphon	mmarczyk: hey, did you have a chance to take a look?
19:49	mmarczyk	(defn #^String foo [#^String s] (count s))
19:50	mmarczyk	(meta (first (first (:arglists (meta #'foo)))))
19:50	mmarczyk	slyphon: yes, I committed a fix
19:50	slyphon	w00t!
19:50	slyphon	ty
19:50	rhickey	joshua-choi: I don't understand. In order to use the protocol you need to refer to the protocol object, not the type
19:50	scottj	mmarczyk: cool
19:50	mmarczyk	scottj: of course not that many things are hinted... but still
19:50	slyphon	mmarczyk: hah! nice
19:51	slyphon	thanks
19:51	mmarczyk	slyphon: btw, I also thought about how this is fundamentally broken :-)
19:51	joshua-choi	rhickey: Yes, sorry; never mind.
19:51	slyphon	hahah
19:51	slyphon	mmarczyk: oh yeah?
19:51	mmarczyk	cool, no?
19:51	mmarczyk	yeah
19:51	rhickey	joshua-choi: in any case ,no, foo.bar/baz is always a ns member or static member
19:51	mmarczyk	but just to make sure
19:52	joshua-choi	rhickey: And datatypes are no longer members of namespaces, right?
19:52	mmarczyk	what would be a simple bean I could work with...?
19:52	mmarczyk	I mean is there something in java standard libs I could test this with?
19:52	rhickey	joshua-choi: datatypes are named types, and no longer create factory fns in a ns, right
19:53	slyphon	mmarczyk: hang on, i'll check in that class i was using
19:53	joshua-choi	rhickey: Okay. It's a tad annoying, since I must now import constructors with import instead of require, but I can just create factory functions, so it's okay.
19:53	mmarczyk	slyphon: ok, I'll run a little experiment of my own in the meantime
19:53	slyphon	kk
19:54	rhickey	full example of annotations http://gist.github.com/377213
19:55	rhickey	joshua-choi: right, a factory fn in your control lets you process args, have defaults etc
19:56	mmarczyk	slyphon: right, so this will break in the following way
19:56	mmarczyk	say you want to have a Var named params holding some params to use with update-bean
19:57	joshua-choi	rhickey: In any case, though, we should probably indicate in our datatypes' docstrings the intended way to create the datatype: by constructor or a factor method, right?
19:57	mmarczyk	then you compile a function which uses update-bean and give it the symbol params as the second argument
19:57	scottj	50 lines? what happened to one line for new features? you're slipping. Didn't someone say if you can write an annotation in one line you should be able to implement annotations in one line? </sarcasm>
19:57	slyphon	symbol capture
19:57	mmarczyk	this will work just fine, BUT
19:57	slyphon	?
19:57	mmarczyk	if you then go and redefine params to something else
19:57	mmarczyk	your function will never notice
19:57	clojurebot	http://jackcoughonsoftware.blogspot.com/2009/05/teaching-functional-programming-to-kids.html
19:57	slyphon	oy
19:57	mmarczyk	and the update-bean bit will use the previous value of params
19:58	slyphon	hmm
19:58	slyphon	so this probably needs to use gensyms?
19:58	mmarczyk	obviously, since it's determined at macro expansion time
19:58	mmarczyk	um, no, that won't do
19:58	mmarczyk	actually, at this point, I'm inclined to say that this is a perfect use case for eval
19:59	slyphon	hah
19:59	slyphon	rhickey: http://github.com/slyphon/sly-utils/blob/master/src/com/slyphon/utils/update_bean.clj
19:59	slyphon	rhickey: if you have a moment
19:59	mmarczyk	though it'll still need to be a macro
19:59	slyphon	rhickey: this has presented a bit of a poser
19:59	mmarczyk	since there might be locals involved
20:00	mmarczyk	hm, actually the fundamental question to ask ourselves is
20:00	slyphon	rhickey: the use case is to update a bean, generating the method names based off of keys of a hash passed in
20:00	mmarczyk	whether this is a problem :-)
20:00	slyphon	hah
20:00	mmarczyk	or maybe reflection is fine after all
20:00	mmarczyk	with a nice bit of reflection-fu, this can be a proper function
20:00	slyphon	so it's going to change the value of a local variable behind the function's back?
20:01	mmarczyk	hm? not sure I understand
20:01	slyphon	hah
20:01	slyphon	well, i don't quite understand what would break
20:01	mmarczyk	well
20:01	rhickey	slyphon: you've looked at bean, in core_proxy.clj?
20:01	mmarczyk	notice how, when given a symbol as the second arg, update-bean calls eval
20:01	slyphon	rhickey: yes, it scared me
20:01	slyphon	i thought bean was read-only
20:02	mmarczyk	rhickey: doesn't bean return a read-only object?
20:02	rhickey	yes, it's read only, but a very similar job
20:02	slyphon	rhickey: i don't quite know how to phrase this, but what is it about '.' that makes this so challenging?
20:04	mmarczyk	rhickey: could bean be rewritten using reify, IPersistentMap and support assoc as a property-setting operation?
20:04	mmarczyk	to be used like transients, i.e. in a highly localised fashion
20:07	mmarczyk	slyphon: continuing about eval in update-bean, it only gets called once -- when the macro is expanded
20:07	mmarczyk	then that hypothetical update-bean-using function gets compiled with the result of the expansion becoming a part of its code
20:07	slyphon	ohhhhh
20:07	mmarczyk	that is, with the map hard-wired inside it
20:07	MadWombat	was defservice replaced by something else in compojure 0.4.0?
20:07	mmarczyk	by value
20:08	slyphon	mmarczyk: that's bad
20:08	slyphon	mmarczyk: do you have a CL or Scheme background?
20:08	mmarczyk	MadWombat: likely moved off to some other project, see http://formpluslogic.blogspot.com/2010/04/migrating-from-compojure-032-to-040-and_01.html
20:08	mmarczyk	slyphon: Scheme
20:08	slyphon	ahh
20:09	mmarczyk	MadWombat: it doesn't mention defservice in particular, but perhaps the dependencies list will give you a hint
20:10	slyphon	i've been thinking about looking into scheme, i tried CL a few years ago, but it was really ....overwhelming
20:12	mmarczyk	I like reading Lisp books :-)
20:13	slyphon	mmarczyk: is there a scheme book in particular you'd recommend?
20:13	mmarczyk	well, I taught myself to programme with SICP
20:13	slyphon	hah
20:13	mmarczyk	and I honestly believe it's the very best technical book I ever read
20:14	MadWombat	mmarczyk: I guess it is up to jetty to provide a way to run compojure as a war
20:15	mmarczyk	MadWombat: couldn't say with any certainty
20:15	mmarczyk	I don't know much about Java Web deployment schemes
20:15	mmarczyk	(I suppose I'd like to change that)
20:16	joshua-choi	Question. A method called clojure.lang.RT.set is raising a "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: true", and I don't know why.
20:16	mmarczyk	but I'd probably look inside ring-servlet
20:16	joshua-choi	But I do know it has something to do with the preconditions in a function.
20:16	mmarczyk	slyphon: then there's EOPL and PAIP
20:16	slyphon	mmarczyk: i have an example of programmatically setting up a servlet container w/ jetty
20:16	mmarczyk	PAIP is more a "reading list" item now, but the bits I've read so far are fantastic
20:17	slyphon	ahh
20:17	slyphon	ok, these are the clasics
20:17	mmarczyk	so they are :-)
20:17	mmarczyk	I rather think the status is well deserved :-)
20:17	slyphon	hah
20:17	slyphon	well, i'll have a go then
20:18	mmarczyk	:-)
20:18	slyphon	i read ANSI Common Lisp and that free one online
20:19	mmarczyk	slyphon: I'd like to get some initial picture of what the Java Web stack looks like
20:19	mmarczyk	for starters
20:19	mmarczyk	right now I seem to be bumping into new acronymes all the time :-)
20:19	slyphon	mmarczyk: ah, well, you take what you think about "web serving" and you hit it with a hammer, then you take all those little shards and you make them into Classes and Frameworks seemingly at random
20:20	mmarczyk	Practical Common Lisp, I guess?
20:20	slyphon	mmarczyk: that's the one
20:20	nurv	mmarczyk: Maybe you'll enjoy "Lisp in small pieces"
20:20	slyphon	i find clojure is much easier to digest
20:20	slyphon	and WAY more fun than scala
20:20	mmarczyk	nurv: I think I would, I've skimmed it a couple of times and even the short bits I read were quite enlightening
20:21	nurv	mmarczyk: Very technical sometimes but it's worth it.
20:21	mmarczyk	slyphon: totally with you on that :-)
20:21	slyphon	:)
20:21	nurv	Some discussions on different object systems and environments are pretty "aha!" moments.
20:23	mmarczyk	nurv: well, that's definitely on my list
20:23	mmarczyk	and pretty high up :-)
20:25	nurv	EOPL has a new edition, but i didn't read it.
20:25	nurv	At least the source code works on PLT Scheme and new implementations.
20:25	slyphon	woah
20:25	mmarczyk	slyphon: my hopes of getting a clear picture of said Classes and Frameworks and how they fit together are already wrapped up in lots of duct tape after having fallen apart on a number of occasions
20:25	slyphon	:)
20:26	slyphon	i went from zero to deploying a couple of core pieces of the infrastructure of motionbox.com with jruby and jetty
20:26	slyphon	it takes a lot of reading and futzing, until you know what's safe to ignore
20:26	mmarczyk	nurv: eopl3 is a bit different from 2
20:26	slyphon	b/c a lot of that javaee stuff is just over-complicated
20:26	mmarczyk	the most striking difference, to me
20:27	mmarczyk	is that it's not self-contained
20:27	mmarczyk	in that you have to get the define-datatype stuff
20:27	mmarczyk	as well as a lexer/parser
20:27	mmarczyk	somewhere
20:27	mmarczyk	and they don't help you with that at all :-)
20:27	nurv	Uhm, i remember downloading the sources and running some chapters without requiring anything else.
20:27	nurv	Mind you i've probably only tested the first ones.
20:28	mmarczyk	hm, really?
20:28	mmarczyk	well maybe I've got it mixed up with something else then, it's been a while back
20:29	scottj	sounds like you have the right thing: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/eopl/MLblurb.html
20:29	nurv	The only problem with EOPL is that the interpreters are quite inefficient for the sake of clarity.
20:29	clojurebot	Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is why a great and clear mind loves ardently and sees distinctly what it loves. -- Pascal
20:29	nurv	Heh.
20:30	nurv	But i suposse that's what LiSP and other books are for.
20:30	mmarczyk	slyphon: (-> over-complicated (#(apply @(ns-resolve 'clojure-core 'inc) %)))
20:30	slyphon	hah
20:30	nurv	Anyway, good night, going bed.
20:30	mmarczyk	nurv: there's a possible EOPL -> LiSP progression :-)
20:31	mmarczyk	see you!
20:31	nurv	mmarczyk: yes
20:31	nurv	That's mostly what i did.
20:31	nurv	SICP -> EOPL -> LiSP.
20:31	mmarczyk	nurv: well, I'm a bit past the middle of that road :-)
20:31	mmarczyk	nurv: can't wait to join you at the end :-)
21:09	remleduff	Is loading ~/.clojure/user.clj a clojure.main thing or does every repl implementation have to source that itself (if it does)?
21:13	hiredman	remleduff: I believe it's clojure.main
21:27	slyphon	uh, multimethods can have multiple arities, right?
21:28	carkh	(defmulti belh (fn [target & args] (:type target)))
21:28	slyphon	ok, thought so
21:29	carkh	(defmethod belh :type1 [a-type-1 arg1 arg2] ...)
21:29	mmarczyk	slyphon: I pushed a new branch
21:29	slyphon	mmarczyk: hah!
21:29	mmarczyk	with a proposed eval-based fix
21:29	slyphon	awesome
21:29	hiredman	they can have multiple arities, but your dispatch function needs to be able to handle every arity
21:30	mmarczyk	the previous version is still in there, commented out
21:30	slyphon	how about your methods?
21:30	slyphon	mmarczyk: ok :)
21:30	hiredman	doesn't matter
21:30	slyphon	ok, cool
21:30	mmarczyk	the methods need to handle every arity which makes sense for the given dispatch value
21:31	slyphon	that's what i thought, just wanted to make sure that was what the reality actually was
21:33	mmarczyk	slyphon: oh bother, I think I'm getting a bit tired here
21:33	mmarczyk	forgot to commit before pushing
21:33	slyphon	hah
21:33	slyphon	i have quite a few commit messages at work "doh! helps to add the file"
21:34	slyphon	(and i'm not the only one)
21:34	mmarczyk	:-)
21:34	mmarczyk	done now
21:34	slyphon	k
21:36	mmarczyk	and if you have it return doto# instead of (eval doto#), you'll get a more digestible view of what would happen with eval than with macroexpand
21:38	slyphon	uh
21:38	slyphon	what's #_ ?
21:38	slyphon	comment?
21:39	remleduff	Yeah, completely hides the following form, as opposed to (comment) which returns nil
21:40	hiredman	in both case the stuff commented out needs to be readable
21:40	slyphon	interesting
21:41	remleduff	I've been using swank-clojure-project and am trying to switch to lein swank, but I don't seem to have any M-x slime-connect available (I do have slime-repl) installed. Any ideas?
21:41	slyphon	that's kind of odd
21:42	slyphon	mmarczyk: wait, you're nesting `() ?
21:42	slyphon	that's why the gensyms work in the inner form?
21:43	mmarczyk	remleduff: can you check if M-x slime-connect becomes available after you launch a repl with swank-clojure-project?
21:43	mmarczyk	slyphon: the autogensyms work at the same nesting level, I believe
21:43	slyphon	hrm, you're using k# on line 34
21:43	remleduff	mmarczyk: Yeah, a bunch of slime functions become available after swank-clojure-project
21:44	slyphon	remleduff: (require 'slime) ?
21:45	remleduff	slyphon: Yep, thanks
21:45	mmarczyk	slyphon: just checked and so it is
21:46	mmarczyk	http://pastie.org/932493
21:46	mmarczyk	note how the k# occurs within an unquoted form
21:47	mmarczyk	it's still syntax-quoted, but just one level, while the . is at level 2
21:47	slyphon	wow
21:48	slyphon	ok, i need to go "back to the woodshed" and study some of this stuff
21:48	hiredman	you don't need macros to use `
21:48	hiredman	,`x#
21:48	clojurebot	x__11270__auto__
21:48	mmarczyk	it could be useful to test it :-)
21:48	slyphon	ah, ok
21:48	slyphon	:)
21:49	hiredman	,(let [x '(1 2 3)] `(~@x))
21:49	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
21:49	slyphon	the macro only affects when the parameters are evaluated?
21:50	slyphon	that's the "macroness"?
21:50	hiredman	right
21:50	mmarczyk	or you could say
21:51	mmarczyk	a macro function operates on the form to be compiled
21:51	hiredman	,(:macro (meta #'defn))
21:51	clojurebot	true
21:51	hiredman	,(:macro (meta #'+))
21:51	clojurebot	nil
21:51	hiredman	that is the difference
21:51	mmarczyk	as opposed to runtime parameter values operated upon by regular functions
21:52	mmarczyk	so, a macro is a perfectly regular function, but it gets called when the code is compiled
21:52	slyphon	when i first started learning unix, someone told me "Everything is a file". It took me about 5 years until i really understood the implications of that
21:52	slyphon	i have a feeling this is something similar :)
21:52	mmarczyk	:-)
21:53	slyphon	mmarczyk: that makes sense
21:53	slyphon	and i kind of grok that, i think i just haven't had enough practice thinking about the code in that way
21:54	slyphon	the "code is data, data is code" thing that drives people mad
21:54	mmarczyk	have you ever used Scheme?
21:55	slyphon	no, but i feel that i should
21:55	mmarczyk	syntax-rules macros are cool :-)
21:55	slyphon	hah
21:55	mmarczyk	http://www.xs4all.nl/~hipster/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt
21:56	mmarczyk	there's nothing whatsoever strange about CL-style macros when you compare it with that :-)
21:56	mmarczyk	on the surface, that is, semantically I kinda feel the reverse is true
21:57	slyphon	"I have noticed that it is easy to
21:57	slyphon	find both trivial examples and extraordinarily complex examples, but
21:57	slyphon	there seem to be no intermediate ones."
21:58	slyphon	sorry, i thought that'd be one line
21:58	hiredman	mmarczyk: you could port syntax-rules to clojure
21:58	slyphon	but that's very astute
21:59	mmarczyk	hiredman: actually I was thinking of doing that
21:59	slyphon	mmarczyk: these differ from regular macros in what way?
22:00	mmarczyk	slyphon: scroll down and have a look at some of the examples :-)
22:00	mmarczyk	there's a completely different syntax
22:00	mmarczyk	that's the superficial part
22:00	mmarczyk	then they are hygienic
22:00	mmarczyk	meaning that they prevent variable capture and the like
22:01	gregh	somewhere I saw a port of syntax-rules to CL
22:01	hiredman	clojure does make it a pain to capture symbols
22:02	gregh	it'd still probably need significant work to port it again to clojure
22:02	mmarczyk	consider (defmacro aif ([pred then] (aif pred then else)) ([pred then else] (list 'let ['it pred] (list 'if then else))))
22:02	slyphon	there's an example of how to do it in the Programming Clojure book
22:02	slyphon	(symbol capture, that is)
22:02	hiredman	~'foo
22:02	clojurebot	Huh?
22:02	hiredman	I mean, it's not that much of a pain
22:02	hiredman	,`~'foo
22:02	clojurebot	foo
22:02	mmarczyk	gregh: I might google around for it then
22:03	mmarczyk	I was thinking of stealing ideas from PLT sources
22:03	slyphon	are there multiple schemes?
22:03	hiredman	yes
22:03	slyphon	like the plethora of CL implementations?
22:03	mmarczyk	slyphon: loads
22:03	hiredman	scheme is legion
22:03	slyphon	uh
22:03	slyphon	hiredman: hah!
22:03	slyphon	which one would you guys recommend?
22:03	slyphon	for someone just learning
22:03	hiredman	shrug I prefer clojure
22:04	mmarczyk	slyphon: more than one per Schemer
22:04	mmarczyk	:-)
22:04	slyphon	hah
22:04	hiredman	I think someone was writing a scheme interpreter in clojure
22:04	gregh	mmarczyk: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/mbe/mbe-lsp.html
22:04	sexpbot	"Scheme Macros for Common Lisp"
22:04	mmarczyk	MIT Scheme makes it easy to go along with SICP and the classical mechanics book
22:04	mmarczyk	Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics
22:04	hiredman	~google clojure scheme
22:04	clojurebot	First, out of 22400 results is:
22:04	clojurebot	Clojure Programming/Tutorials and Tips - Wikibooks, collection of ...
22:04	clojurebot	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips
22:04	hiredman	bah
22:05	hiredman	~google scheme in clojure
22:05	clojurebot	First, out of 23200 results is:
22:05	clojurebot	Clojure Programming/Tutorials and Tips - Wikibooks, collection of ...
22:05	mmarczyk	gregh: thanks a bunch!
22:05	clojurebot	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips
22:05	mmarczyk	I'll be taking a close look at that
22:05	hiredman	ttp://clojure.wikidot.com/scheme-interpreter-in-clojure is the real url
22:05	hiredman	with an h
22:06	slyphon	hah "Scheme 9 From Empty Space"
22:06	mmarczyk	slyphon: there's a so-called "language level" -- a customised version of Scheme -- for EOPL in PLT Scheme
22:06	mmarczyk	um, ouch
22:06	mmarczyk	I mean Racket
22:06	slyphon	still not as good as the "run plan 9 as a regular program" project "Plan 9 from Userspace"
22:07	mmarczyk	I use Petite Chez Scheme for Project Euler
22:07	mmarczyk	PLT for other stuff
22:09	hiredman	seems like a port of syntax-rule to clojure should take advantage of clojure's destructuring
22:11	hiredman	(defsyntax-rule {(foo [first & rest]) (conj (vec rest) first)})
22:11	hiredman	right needs a name
22:12	hiredman	(defsyntax-rule first->last {(foo [first & rest]) (conj (vec rest) first)})
22:13	hiredman	(first->last (list 1 2 3)) => (let [[first_12 & rest_85] (list 1 2 3)] (conj (vec rest_85) first_12))
22:13	mmarczyk	apparently there's no licence on that code
22:13	slyphon	it's free!
22:15	mmarczyk	ah, LGPL actually
22:16	slyphon	oof
22:16	slyphon	Can't embed object in code, maybe print-dup not defined: atomikos MessageProducer proxy for HornetQRAMessageProducer->org.hornetq.core.client.impl.ClientProducerImpl@75896415
22:16	slyphon	weird
22:18	hiredman	oooo
22:18	hiredman	you doing stuff with hornetq?
22:18	slyphon	yup
22:18	slyphon	way more stable than AMQ
22:19	slyphon	hah
22:19	hiredman	clojurebot was sticking messages on the queue and my laptop was picking them up over openvpn
22:19	slyphon	nice
22:19	hiredman	very enterprise
22:20	slyphon	yeah, just gotta slap a web front-end on it and you can start charging for support
22:23	_rata_	what do I have to do to make swank-clojure works?
22:24	_rata_	I've followed the instructions here http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs
22:24	sexpbot	"Getting Started with Emacs \| Clojure \| Assembla"
22:24	_rata_	but it doesn't work yet
22:24	_rata_	it says: (progn (load "/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/swank-loader.lisp" :verbose t) (funcall ...
22:24	_rata_	in the first line of the REPL
22:24	_rata_	and then: java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: progn in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
22:25	hiredman	haha
22:25	slyphon	http://technomancy.us/126
22:25	sexpbot	"in which are found tricks of the trade concerning clojure authorship - Technomancy"
22:25	slyphon	i found that guide to be quite useful
22:25	hiredman	_rata_: what exactly are you doing
22:26	hiredman	that exception says you are trying to evaluate elisp as clojure
22:26	_rata_	first I did install package.el
22:26	hiredman	woa
22:26	_rata_	then I do M-x package-list-packages and install clojure-mode, slime, slime-repl and swank-clojure
22:26	hiredman	wait
22:27	hiredman	you did (progn (load "/usr/share/emacs/site-lis... at a clojure repl?
22:27	_rata_	no
22:27	_rata_	that was what emacs did
22:27	_rata_	when I put M-x slime
22:28	hiredman	_rata_: pretty sure you don't want to install slime and slime-repl
22:28	_rata_	why?
22:28	clojurebot	why not?
22:28	hiredman	swank-clojure or clojure-mode pull in the clojure parts of slime
22:29	_rata_	ahh ok
22:29	hiredman	the slime stuff listed in epl is most likely the common lisp slime stuff
22:29	_rata_	and how do I remove them?
22:29	hiredman	darned if I know
22:29	mmarczyk	actually I thought that elpa users are expected to install slime separately
22:30	mmarczyk	but I wouldn't really know, I'm using my own checkout
22:30	_rata_	do I need paredit?
22:30	hiredman	yes
22:30	_rata_	ok
22:30	hiredman	last I heard clojure slime and upstream slime did not play well together
22:31	mmarczyk	_rata_: maybe not strictly need it, but you should definitely want it :-)
22:31	mmarczyk	hiredman: in some ways
22:31	mmarczyk	but elpa is behind upstream
22:31	hiredman	if you aren't already an emacs user I recommend you get the starter kit
22:31	mmarczyk	possibly partly for this reason
22:32	mmarczyk	as a side note, SLIME HEAD works perfectly fine for me
22:32	mmarczyk	I trust people who say that slime-autodoc doesn't work
22:32	_rata_	and do I need to set the inferior-lisp-program in .emacs?
22:32	mmarczyk	and not load it, that's all
22:33	_ato	you shouldn't normally need anything slime/swank related in .emacs when using swank-clojure
22:34	mmarczyk	oh? where does elpa put its autoloads etc. then?
22:35	hiredman	~google emacs starter kit
22:35	clojurebot	First, out of 2680 results is:
22:35	clojurebot	technomancy's emacs-starter-kit at master - GitHub
22:35	clojurebot	http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
22:36	hiredman	it's good stuff
22:36	hiredman	the only real problem is the starter kit is setup to make parens a faint gray
22:37	_rata_	I unistalled everything removing .emacs.d/elpa
22:37	hiredman	_rata_: get the starter-kit, it will make your life easier
22:37	_ato	mmarczyk: if I remember correctly elpa just activates everything that's installed (ie everything that's in ~/.emacs/elpa)
22:37	_rata_	but when I install swank-clojure again, it also installed slime and slime-repl :(
22:37	hiredman	I believe it comes with clojure-mode at least, and maybe swank-clojure as well
22:37	_ato	err ~/.emacs.d/elpa I mean
22:38	mmarczyk	_ato: I see, thanks
22:39	mmarczyk	if that means pulling everything in at startup time... oh dear
22:39	_ato	mmarczyk: activate == install autoloads, not fully load everything
22:40	mmarczyk	oh ok
22:44	_rata_	mmmm... I don't get it
22:44	_rata_	I removed my .emacs file and removed .emacs.d/elpa
22:45	_rata_	installed the starter-kit
22:45	_rata_	and now I have my emacs as it was the first day I installed it
22:45	_rata_	I don't even have the M-x package-list-packages
22:46	_rata_	thing
22:46	hiredman	_rata_: are you sure you installed starter-kit correctly?
22:47	_rata_	cd ~/.emacs.d && git clone http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit.git
22:47	_ato	ah
22:47	hiredman	:\|
22:47	_ato	you've got in a subdirectory then
22:47	_rata_	yes... that says the README
22:48	_ato	do: mv ~/.emacs.d/emacs-starter-kit ~ && rmdir ~/.emacs.d && mv ~/emacs-starter-kit ~/.emacs.d
22:48	_rata_	"Move the directory containing this file to ~/.emacs.d"
22:48	_rata_	ok
22:48	hiredman	right, not ~/.emacs.d/
22:50	_rata_	well, it's working now :)
22:50	_rata_	there were a lot of errors/warnings while compiling though
22:50	hiredman	now you just need autocomplete and rainbow parens
22:51	hiredman	thats normal, don't worry about it
22:51	_rata_	ok
22:51	_rata_	hiredman: what's autocomplete and rainbow parens?
22:52	_rata_	that sounds interesting
22:52	hiredman	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoComplete
22:52	sexpbot	"EmacsWiki: Auto Complete"
22:53	_rata_	(now, I did M-x package-list-packages, selected clojure-mode and swank-clojure from the list, and again slime and slime-repl got installed)
22:53	hiredman	shrug
22:53	hiredman	M-x slime
22:53	_ato	it's normal for slime and slime-repl to be installed
22:53	_ato	as dependencies
22:54	_ato	I have them at least anyway
22:54	_rata_	is autocomplete better than company?
22:54	hiredman	http://dishevelled.net/elisp/rainbow-parens.el
22:54	hiredman	company?
22:55	hiredman	I have nod idea
22:55	_rata_	ok
22:55	slyphon	i use autocomplete
22:55	slyphon	it's a'ight
22:56	hiredman	the company mode wiki page has some discussion of company vs. ac as does the ac wikipage
22:57	_rata_	what does rainbow-parens do?
22:58	_rata_	well, slime seems to be working now... how do I say to swank-clojure how to execute clojure? (it says clojure is not installed, but it is)
22:58	_ato	rainbow-parens is designed to burn out your eyes ;-)
22:59	slyphon	haha
22:59	hiredman	http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2urqmgl&s=6
23:00	sexpbot	"emacs rainbow-parens Pictures, emacs rainbow-parens Images, emacs rainbow-parens Photos, emacs rainbow-parens Videos - Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting"
23:00	hiredman	it changes the color of parens based on nesting level
23:00	hiredman	very handy
23:01	slyphon	wow, mit-scheme takes a long time to compile
23:07	mmarczyk	I prefer highlight-parentheses
23:07	mmarczyk	but guess it does the same ultimately
23:08	slyphon	well, one is on-demand
23:11	slyphon	jeez
23:11	slyphon	that's not meant to be a come-on
23:12	_rata_	hahahahahaha
23:13	mmarczyk	slyphon: no precompiled package for your OS?
23:13	slyphon	well
23:13	slyphon	i'm using macports
23:16	mmarczyk	http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/
23:16	sexpbot	"MIT/GNU Scheme - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF)"
23:16	mmarczyk	they've got MacOS X binaries
23:16	danlarkin	that really is annoying
23:17	slyphon	mmarczyk: well, i'll use that if ti goes from a first-degree to second-degree burn
23:18	mmarczyk	:-)
23:32	_rata_	mmmm.. there are some annoying things with the emacs starter kit... how do I get rid of that green line over the current line?
23:33	hiredman	that is most likely hl-line-mode
23:34	_rata_	hiredman: thanks :)
23:34	slyphon	oh, i always thought that was part of cedet
23:34	slyphon	oh, that's above each method decl
23:40	slyphon	wow
23:40	slyphon	that took almost an hour
23:43	_rata_	how do I inform swank-clojure where do I have clojure installed?
23:44	mmarczyk	hm, rainbow-paren has very clean sources apparently
23:45	_rata_	I couldn't make rainbow-parens work :(
23:45	mmarczyk	did it complain about not being able to find paredit or sth?
23:46	Raynes	Ew @ hl-line-mode
23:46	mmarczyk	if so, highlight-parentheses is self-contained, so you could use that instead
23:46	mmarczyk	so as to avoid the hassle of fixing things and yet have highlighted parens...
23:46	remleduff	If I quit emacs and choose to "kill the active connection and then exit", I can't M-x slime-connect after restarting emacs. Is that my fault for quitting the wrong way?
23:46	mmarczyk	but r-p's code is in fact so clean that I might be able to write a cool advice for it
23:46	slyphon	remleduff: that's odd
23:47	remleduff	It says "connection refused"
23:47	slyphon	oh, you have to restart the clojure process
23:49	Raynes	It looks like one of my dependencies is turning warn-on-reflection on, and I'm getting reflection warnings everywhere. Is there a way to force it to stay off?
23:49	remleduff	Yeah, I was thinking the whole point of lein swank was that it would survive emacs restarts
23:50	slyphon	nah, it's more that you can specify the command-line args more easily (i found)
23:50	slyphon	customize them per-project
23:54	_rata_	mmarczyk: it doesn't say anything
23:54	_rata_	but the parens are the same as before when I do (require 'rainbow-parens)
23:56	hiredman	(rainbox-parens-mode 1)
23:57	hiredman	rainbow
23:57	hiredman	(rainbow-paren-mode t) is what is in my hiredman.el
23:58	_rata_	:) thanks again
23:58	slyphon	o/` Just a box of rain, or a ribbon for your hair... o/`