#clojure – 2010-04-22

2010-04-22

00:16	rfg	What's the easiest way to get an infinite sequence of [0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 ...]?
00:18	hiredman	,(doc cycle)
00:18	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
00:18	rfg	Danke
01:24	johnmn3	hi
01:24	herdrick	you know what'd be nice? to make memoized functions implement IPersistentMap
01:24	herdrick	that'd be super handy
01:24	herdrick	and would make symmetric the 'maps are functions' property
01:26	Chousuke	I think it might actually be confusing
01:26	herdrick	how?
01:26	clojurebot	with style and grace
01:26	herdrick	words of wisdom, clojurebot
01:27	Chousuke	"maps are functions" makes sense and is useful, but "functions are maps (only if memoized)" just isn't :/
01:28	hoeck	herdrick: regardless wether its useful or not, with deftype, its only a few lines away :)
01:29	Chousuke	though I suppose it would facilitate a "lazy map" kind of thing
01:29	herdrick	it makes plenty of sense, and it's something i want right now
01:29	herdrick	hoeck: really?
01:30	herdrick	hmmm - i'll check out deftype
01:30	herdrick	thanks
01:30	herdrick	!
01:30	hoeck	herdrick: yes, wait a little, I'm pasting sth in a few minutes
01:30	Chousuke	note that deftype is 1.2
01:33	herdrick	Chousuke - thanks
01:33	herdrick	ouch
01:33	herdrick	i don't have 1.2 and my last clojure upgrade hurt
01:34	Chousuke	you can have two versions installed
01:36	johnmn3	was reading the irc logs, seeing rhickey's comments about creating some kind of mechanism in clojure that can mimic some of OOP's modeling... could someone give an example of how that would look in code, using 'bank accounts' for example?
01:37	johnmn3	like... would the clojure example require dereferencing of the fields or would that be taken care of by the object?
01:42	johnmn3	if dereferencing was taken care of internally, would the clojure example look essentially like the java example (hiding the "where to put the value problem")? And what would be the limitations of the clojure version compared to the java one?
01:48	hoeck	herdrick: http://gist.github.com/374865
02:00	herdrick	hoeck: thanks!
02:01	herdrick	can't try it until i get the newest clojure
02:01	herdrick	:(
02:01	herdrick	have been avoiding that
02:03	hoeck	herdrick: you can download clojure.jar from build.clojure.org, and just try it on the repl, without upgrading you other clojure environment
02:03	slyphon	so, is it possible to hand a function a var's name (like foo) and then have that function deref the var? kind of like what a macro would do in terms of delaying evaluation?
02:03	herdrick	hoeck: ok.
02:03	herdrick	or make a new swank-clojure-project using that jar, eh?
02:03	herdrick	that'd be a snap
02:04	herdrick	huh
02:04	hoeck	if it works for you, of course :)
02:05	herdrick	yeah
02:27	wooby	hoeck, that's sweet
02:33	hoeck	wooby: deftype is really nice, you can combine all the clojure interfaces to create new datastructures
02:34	wooby	hoeck, i've read a little on it but didn't realize the implications
02:35	hoeck	for example, if you implement seq and cons on your new datatype, you can map over and conj onto it as if it were a "native" clojure datatype
02:37	hoeck	you could do this all the time, maps and seqs were defined by interfaces all the time, but deftype makes it really succinct and efficient to implement them, in contrast to genclass or proxy
02:39	wooby	is defprotocol related to this capability somehow?
02:45	wooby	hm, i think ill try and write it myself :)
03:15	TheBusby	is there a simple way to check to see if something can be treated like a seq? I know (seq? [1 2]) is false...
03:15	Licenser_	morning
03:16	Licenser_	TheBusby: try coll?
03:16	Licenser_	,(coll? [1 2])
03:16	clojurebot	true
03:16	Licenser_	,(coll? '(1 2))
03:16	clojurebot	true
03:16	TheBusby	Licenser_: perfect, thank you!
03:17	_ato	,(coll? "wheeeeeee")
03:17	clojurebot	false
03:17	_ato	,(seq "wheeeeee")
03:17	clojurebot	(\w \h \e \e \e \e \e \e)
03:17	_ato	,(seqable? "wheeee")
03:17	clojurebot	true
03:17	Licenser_	and again _ato is smarter then me :P
03:18	_ato	though coll? maybe more appropriate if you
03:18	_ato	re really only interested in clojure collections
03:18	TheBusby	yep, '() [] and {} for the moment
03:18	Licenser_	(coll? {1 2})
03:18	Licenser_	,(coll? {1 2})
03:18	clojurebot	true
03:18	TheBusby	strings are have their own special level of hell reserved for them
03:19	Licenser_	^^
03:20	tomoj	just need a language where the words are integers
03:20	Licenser_	1
03:21	_ato	hellish java string fact of the day: if you take a small subsequence of a large string and then release all references the large string so it can be garbage collected, prepare to be surprised by an OutOfMemoryError
03:21	Licenser_	g
03:22	TheBusby	java strings have their fun, but everything after pure ASCII strings in C seems to have their own pain
03:22	_ato	I think it'd be interesting to try implementing strings using persistent vectors, it'd allow structure sharing but still avoid that problem
03:22	_ato	and would probably make manipulating them faster
03:23	TheBusby	I blame human language though, that's the difficult part
03:23	Chousuke	ICU is one of the few string libraries that is probably doing it right :P
03:23	_ato	or maybe they'd just be slower, dunno. Interesting to try
03:23	TheBusby	usually speed is the big problem
03:23	gregh	any problem in compute science can be solved with an other level of indirection
03:23	gregh	computer
03:24	Chousuke	gregh: including the problem of overabstraction?
03:24	TheBusby	haha
03:24	gregh	except that one, it creates other problems. :)
03:31	gregh	anyway, one could create a string class that broke up the backend representation when a substring was taken, so that freeing the large string would allow the majority to be garbage collected
03:31	gregh	you'd have to have a pretty good reason to go to all that work, though.
03:32	_ato	true that
03:33	_ato	I occasionally run into the problem when parsing lots of big data and tallying things up in hash tables, based on some smaller part of the larger text
03:33	_ato	just need to remember to explicitly copy the string before sticking it in your hash map
03:58	Licenser_	meep meep
04:02	TheBusby	er, what's the trick where you can call a function before you define it? It's not bind...
04:02	_ato	declare
04:02	TheBusby	_ato: thank you!
04:04	esj	I do declare Mr. Beauregard... !
04:05	esj	mercy, i need more coffee.... I'm turning into a ircbot
04:21	Licenser_	_ato: do you still remember the bug in clj-sandbox that let you remap a function wiht var and such?
04:22	Licenser_	you called .alterRootVar on some var and then got a eval with another name when I remember correctly
04:22	_ato	hmm
04:24	Licenser_	i think clj-sandbox fixed the issue now but I'd like to make a test to be sure :P
04:25	_ato	Licenser_: see #clojure-casual
04:53	MadWombat	Hello all
04:55	MadWombat	If I have a defstruct with 3 keys and 3 lists of items, how can I make a bunch of structs picking values from each collections?
04:57	AWizzArd	Hi MadWombat. Could you please describe what you want in other words? I am not sure that I understand what you want.
04:57	bsteuber	MadWombat: you pick values with (:your-key your-struct) - not sure if this is what you need either :)
04:58	Chousuke	(map (partial struct yourstruct) list1 list2 list3)
05:29	AWizzArd	What do you use to parse .csv files? Does Contrib have something for that?
05:31	zmila	certainly, exists some java implementation of csv-parsers
05:32	esj	AWizzArd: I think there is such a thing in Incantre
05:43	stilkov	AWizzArd: check out http://github.com/davidsantiago/clojure-csv
05:46	AWizzArd	oki
05:49	stilkov	how does one submit bug reports for the clojure documentation?
05:50	Chousuke	normally through the ticket system I think
05:50	Chousuke	there's a support tab in assembla for non-members
05:52	stilkov	thanks
06:26	npoektop	what does mean :memory here (defmethod read-session :memory [repository id] ...)?
06:27	bsteuber	npoektop: depends on the definition of read-session
06:28	bsteuber	http://clojure.org/multimethods
06:28	npoektop	bsteuber, thank you
07:03	_exterm	Is the ASM used by the clojure compiler just a repackaged org.objectweb.asm? if so, which version is it based on?
07:20	eglyph	hello, I'm following the tutorial on enlive. scrape3 isn't working. it uses html/selector which is not in enlive-html. am I missing something?
07:34	_exterm	Hey people, I'm trying to do some modifications to the Compilre to target a different Bytecode format. Is the ASM used by the clojure compiler just a repackaged org.objectweb.asm? if so, which version is it based on?
07:37	hoeck	_exterm: yes, its org.objectweb.asm, but I don't know which version
07:38	hoeck	eglyph: which tutorial?
07:39	eglyph	hoeck: the one from here: http://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/
07:40	eglyph	everything is fine until the moment i have to load scrape3.clj. i've browsed the source and couldn't find 'selector' function
07:42	hoeck	eglyph: and what about net.cgrand.enlive-html/selector ?
07:43	eglyph	is there such a function in enlive-html?
07:44	eglyph	enlive-html is :required as html, so the full name is html/selector. this is the exact thing the slime barks at.
07:44	hoeck	I don't know, I have never used enlive :P
07:44	eglyph	as i've already said there is no such function in enlive-html
07:44	hoeck	ah, okay, I first thought that there was a typo somewhere in scrape3 or so
07:45	eglyph	it seems the idea is to use partial application if i'm not mistaken
07:59	kzar	So I'm probably just being stupid here but I'm a bit confused by the clojure.http.client package. If I call the request function with the GET method and add some parameters the parameters seem to be given as post ones. (Even though the :method of the response is GET) . If I add the parameters manually to the URL they are sent as GET parameters though
08:01	AntonyBlakey	eglyph: in enlive_html.clj line 343 I see (defmacro selector ...) so it's definitely defined. This is enlive 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
08:04	eglyph	AntonyBlakey: I'm looking into git version and there is no such string. the tutorial is installed with lein. so probably enlive evolved and the tutorial is not updated.
08:04	AntonyBlakey	Check your project.clj to see what version lein specifies.
08:05	AntonyBlakey	I did the tutorial with no problems.
08:05	eglyph	enlive "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"
08:06	eglyph	i've just looked into enlive jar for the source. it's not there. wtf?
08:06	_ato	kzar: I think when you pass a map to it it always puts it in the request body, not the query string. If you want to put something on the query string add it to the URL (you can probably use url-encode on the map to format it)
08:07	AntonyBlakey	eglyph: It is in mine (along with many compiled files)
08:08	eglyph	AntonyBlakey: my jar consists two .clj files. this is weird.
08:11	AntonyBlakey	You have a later version than I do.
08:13	AntonyBlakey	Did you perchance checkout out the git head and build it?
08:14	Licenser_	hmm has anyone worked with clojure to write gui applications?
08:14	AntonyBlakey	berlin brown has a blog post on it.
08:15	AntonyBlakey	http://berlinbrowndev.blogspot.com/2009/04/practical-clojure-with-swt-junit-and.html
08:15	sexpbot	"Berlin Brown and Software Development: Practical Clojure with SWT, JUnit and Spring"
08:15	eglyph	AntonyBlakey: no, I just cloned the tutorial repo and followed all the steps listed. lein deps && lein repl
08:15	AntonyBlakey	and this for swing: http://stuartsierra.com/2010/01/03/doto-swing-with-clojure
08:15	sexpbot	"doto Swing with Clojure - Digital Digressions by Stuart Sierra"
08:15	hoeck	eglyph: it looks like the selector macro was there for "compiling" selectors
08:16	hoeck	and now selectors are just plain functions, and you don't have to compile them
08:16	eglyph	hoeck: so the tutorial won't work until fixed, right?
08:16	hoeck	eglyph: can you try to just remove the html/selector calls from the scrape3 source?
08:17	AntonyBlakey	eglyph: try deleting the enlive jar from your lib directory and your ~/.m2/ repository
08:17	hoeck	eglyph: yes, but it looks like its a very small fix
08:17	AntonyBlakey	But I don't think that 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT matches git head.
08:17	hoeck	eglyph: but beware, I'm only doing a wild guess while looking at the commits
08:18	vu3rdd	_exterm: The clojure package in debian is built without the in-built asm library, as asm is already present as a deb package
08:18	vu3rdd	and it uses version 3.2 of libasm3
08:20	Licenser_	thanks fort the links
08:20	kzar	_ato: OK fair enough
08:22	eglyph	hoeck: right, selector has to be removed from the code
08:22	hoeck	eglyph: that was the commit I'm referring to: http://github.com/cgrand/enlive/commit/6d0919ef2be0f3ea1ca69335d8098ec9e3442f8f#L0R369
08:26	eglyph	i wonder why it is not working
08:55	jfields	are there any conventions around naming in clojure? obviously dashes are preferred to camel case or underscores. Anything else? For example, Stu Halloway once mentioned to me that foo->bar was idiomatic for converting a foo to a bar. Are there other things like that?
08:55	kzar	_ato: Hey you're right the url-encode function works really well, I love how you can just give it a map. It was actually really easy to make a little web-request function that behaved like I expected. Thanks
08:56	Chousuke	jfields: ? for predicates
08:57	hoeck	jfields: also: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Clojure_Library_Coding_Standards
08:57	sexpbot	"Clojure Library Coding Standards \| Clojure \| Assembla"
08:57	Chousuke	jfields: also parameter names: coll for collection, x, y, n, f, g for functions etc.
08:57	Chousuke	hm, that's unclear. obviously not x, y, n for functions :P
08:58	Chousuke	also shadowing core names is okay if the scope of shadowing is short-lived
08:59	jfields	Chousuke, hoeck: cool, thanks
08:59	Chousuke	eg. (defn reverse-map [map] (into {} (for [[k v] map] [v k]))) is okay
09:01	jfields	I've been using using name:age for maps (e.g. (def name:age {:jay 30 :bob 24}), but I was considering switching to name=>age and saving : for another option
09:05	hoeck	jfields: colons in symbols are not a good idea
09:06	jfields	hoeck: why's that?
09:07	hoeck	it looks bad, as they are usually reserved for keywords
09:09	hoeck	an idiomatic name would be name-age
09:10	jfields	hoeck: which looks good in that case, but when it's first-name-last-name you loose a bit of information. first-name=>last-name is more expressive, to me.
09:10	jfields	s/loose/lose/
09:10	Chousuke	I think it's better to name the map to indicate its use
09:11	Chousuke	though if such a naming scheme is not applicable, name=>age is pretty good
09:11	Chousuke	or name->age
09:11	hoeck	right
09:13	jfields	chousuke: name->age, really? doesn't that collide with the idea that -> is usually used for converting from one data structure to another?
09:13	Chousuke	nah.
09:13	AWizzArd	Could be a map :)
09:14	jfields	cool. I'm just learning this stuff, so thanks for the ideas.
09:14	Chousuke	the type->another is mostly borrowed from scheme
09:15	Chousuke	but in clojure most things for now are simply maps and vectors and strings and other mundane data types. there isn't much need for conversion
09:15	jfields	chousuke: sadly, most of my clojure work is tied very closely to an existing java codebase. which has me doing ->'s all the time.
09:16	Chousuke	heh.
09:16	AWizzArd	“(->” does not look similar to “(something->”
09:17	Chousuke	AWizzArd: I don't think anyone said that.
09:32	dnolen	hmm, so is it possible to augment final Java classes now with extend ?
09:36	chouser	yes
09:38	kzar	Is there a way to use clojure.xml/parse with a string or a seq of strings instead of giving it a filename to open?
09:40	zmila	kzar - xml/parse can parse InputStream
09:42	chouser	,(clojure.xml/parse (java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. (.getBytes "<foo>bar</foo>")))
09:42	clojurebot	{:tag :foo, :attrs nil, :content ["bar"]}
09:42	chouser	dnolen: yeah, that's appropriate
09:45	kzar	zmila: chouser: sweet thanks
09:45	kzar	Which html parser would you recommend that can handle badly formed html?
09:46	chouser	tagsoup
09:46	chouser	works quite nicely with clojure.xml/parse
09:46	dnolen	ok, interesting so you can't extend a protocol right ? (that is, without having to specify a list of types)
09:48	chouser	"extend" is always about filling in an implementation at an intersection between a protocol and something else.
09:48	chouser	the something else can be a record, datatype, class (even a final one), or an interface.
09:48	dnolen	chouser: so that's a no. A protocol is a bit less of dynamic thing. I can't change the protocol for everyone (a bad idea I suppose anyway), but I can extend it for a type.
09:49	chouser	oh... you mean add a new method spec to an existing protocol?
09:49	dnolen	chouser: yes
09:49	chouser	I think you can redefine the entire protocol if you want.
09:50	dnolen	chouser: sure, I meant for users of a library which defines a protocol. They want to add some methods, they have to extend all types that use that protocol, they can't jsut add a method spec.
09:54	kzar	chouser: Dumb question but how do I know what to add to my use list to get clj-tagsoup working? Usually I just add the name but with hyphens changed to periods so [clj.tagsoup] but it's not working
09:56	_ato	kzar: if it's not documented then just look at the directory structure of the library source, or read the (ns ...) line: http://github.com/nathell/clj-tagsoup/blob/master/src/pl/danieljanus/tagsoup.clj
09:57	_ato	so in this case you'd use pl.danieljanus.tagsoup
09:57	dnolen	kzar: hyphens don't become periods.
09:58	chouser	it looks like http://github.com/nathell/clj-tagsoup produces different output than clojure.xml
09:58	chouser	if you want clojure.xml output, you don't need a clojure lib, just the tagsoup java .jar
10:03	dnolen	chouser: now that I think about it, I suppose it doesn't matter really, since protocols are composable :)
10:04	Licenser	aloa
10:05	kzar	Hmm so I did try pl.danieljanus.tagsoup earlier, but no luck. At least I was onto something. It's good to know how that stuff should work even if it's not all functioning atm. I tried unziping the tagsoup jar somewhere and the structure looks like org/ccil/cowan/tagsoup so I should add [org.ccil.cowan.tagsoup] to my use list right? Well that's not working either so I'm stumped now
10:06	vu3rdd	I see something very strange with (comment .. )
10:07	vu3rdd	if I put some clojure code there, it is fine. But if I use a strange looking identifier (for example cut and paste code from dotrace), it does not compile
10:07	vu3rdd	,(comment (defn x[] "true"))
10:07	clojurebot	nil
10:08	vu3rdd	,(comment (defn x[] xyz:))
10:08	clojurebot	Invalid token: xyz:
10:08	kzar	(I have copied all of the jars from tagsoup into my classpath and restarted Clojure)
10:09	Licenser	kzar: there is already a clojure lib for tagsoup that works
10:10	kzar	Licenser: Yea I think you joined us mid convo, I was having trouble getting that loaded and it was suggested I tried the tagsoup directly
10:10	lpetit	hello all
10:11	vu3rdd	Is this behaviour with (comment) a bug?
10:13	Licenser	ah okay, kzar I used it with the lib and it worked w/o any trouble - strange
10:14	kzar	Licenser: Heh it's very probably me doing something wrong to be fair on the library
10:15	Licenser	http://github.com/Licenser/lein-search/commit/7fc3030f8d5edb0099f93ea87717673d3f6fe56f#diff-7
10:16	Licenser	actually http://github.com/Licenser/lein-search/blob/7fc3030f8d5edb0099f93ea87717673d3f6fe56f/src/leiningen/update.clj
10:17	kzar	OK I got it working, turns out killing Clojure wasn't enough to add the new jar files to the classpath. I needed to restart emacs
10:17	kzar	On the plus side I understand how things are laid out a lot better now
10:22	Licenser	:)
10:28	kzar	Oh sweet it's working really well with the inspect-tree gizmo, go to love that
10:29	kzar	Does anyone know of a good guide that explains the difference between map apply and reduce? I know it's dumb but the difference always eluded me
10:38	liebke	kzar: a one line summary of the difference is: (apply foo [1 2 3]) => (foo 1 2 3), where as (reduce foo [1 2 3]) => (foo (foo 1 2) 3).
10:39	bsteuber	and (map foo [1 2 3]) => [(foo 1) (foo 2) (foo 3)]
11:07	caljunior	so I was creating this ubercool gui. Sensibly designed it in Netbeans. :import into clojure. everything beautiful. now I want to (.add some-panel (JScrollPane. some-table)) but the ScrollPane is not showing up in the gui. Just an empty JPanel.
11:09	caljunior	all my (.addActionListnener ) code I added in clojure is working just fine in the same gui.
11:09	Chousuke	did you try forcing a repaint of the whole thing?
11:10	caljunior	no
11:10	Chousuke	or check if the scroll pane has any visibility flags
11:10	caljunior	ok
11:10	Chousuke	There's no reason code like that shouldn't work as far as I know so I'm guessing it's for some reason deciding it doesn't need to get drawn at all
11:15	caljunior	(.repaint some-panel) no effect.
11:16	caljunior	checking visibility flags on scroll pane
11:23	jfields	does anyone know if (append-spit) is thread safe?
11:24	Chousuke	~def append-spit
11:24	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:24	jfields	it's in contrib
11:25	stuartsierra	define thread safe
11:25	Chousuke	you can always ensure it's thread safe by using an agent :P
11:25	jfields	I have two threads that want to write to the same file
11:26	stuartsierra	Since it's just calling java.io methods, I would guess it is not safe to use from 2 threads at once.
11:26	jfields	okay, thanks
11:27	Licenser	I really want to write a program with agents, then I'd call them all smith
11:27	stuartsierra	ha
11:27	Chousuke	(def agent smith)
11:27	Licenser	(def smith agent)
11:27	Chousuke	except hm, yeah
11:28	Licenser	then you could use smith instead of agent
11:34	cYmen	I wrote down how I set up vimclojure in case anybody wants to try it: https://simon.a-oben.org/pages/clojurestart.html
11:36	Licenser	I really start to dislike my typo blog :( is there any nice clojure one out there? (yes I know I could write my own)
11:36	Licenser	propably would be best but I hate to do the graphics part -.-
11:38	tomoj`	"typo" blog?
11:38	Licenser	for god's sake :(
11:38	Licenser	yes it's a blog in rails
11:38	tomoj`	oh, yeah
11:38	Licenser	and I start to hate it more and more
11:38	tomoj`	naturally
11:39	Licenser	it refuses to update properly and their new editor is hell - I am scared to share the link of my latest post since it is embarrasing ...
11:40	rfg	Link please.
11:40	rfg	:)
11:41	rfg	I've been writing a blog in CL.
11:42	rfg	I would've liked to write it in clojure, but it's cgi based and so the jvm start-up speed is problematic.
11:42	Licenser	rfg: it is broken
11:42	Licenser	I really want to cry now
11:43	Licenser	sighs
11:47	Chousuke	rfg: have you considered using a wholly jvm-based approach like compojure with Jetty serving the pages?
11:48	zaphar_ps	rfg: I went the static site generator route and wrote it in clojure
11:49	rfg	Chousuke: It's mainly because my host was only (until recently) allowing cgi. They've started a beta for using arbitrary technologies which should allow me to do it in clojure, but I need to look into how one goes about doing that.
11:51	ivenkys	afternoon gents - i am learning clojure (and loving it) , any suggestions for code to look at for getting the idioms right
11:51	rfg	zaphar_ps: Yeah, I've seen your site.
11:52	zaphar_ps	really?
11:52	zaphar_ps	heh
11:52	zaphar_ps	not used to people having been there :-)
11:52	zaphar_ps	it's pretty low traffic
11:52	ivenkys	a small library or so would be perfect -
11:52	rfg	Actually could people have a look at my site and tell me if it is rendering nicely. www.radiofreeganymede.com
11:52	sexpbot	"Radio Free Ganymede"
11:53	zaphar_ps	ooohhhh pretty picture :-)
11:53	zaphar_ps	looks ok to me chrome on ubuntu linux
11:54	slaxor	looks fine on firefox, windows 7
11:54	rfg	I hope to have my first clojure related post up soon.
11:55	Licenser	rfg: looks good on safari http://grab.by/3VYX
11:56	dnolen	invenkys: you could look at cgrand's repo on GitHub tho his work tends to be ultra-dense. The clojure-contrib 1.2.0 libraries might also be educational.
11:56	dnolen	ivenkys: ^
11:56	ivenkys	dnolen: tkx
11:57	ivenkys	rfg : looks good in Firefox on Arch
11:57	lrenn	can you pass wild cards clojure.lang.Compile? In other words, is there a way to write an ant task that doesn't list an argument for each namespace?
11:58	stuartsierra	with a lot of ant XML foolery, yes
11:58	chouser	if you compile a namespace the 'require' or 'use's other namespaces, all those will be compiled too
11:58	Licenser	for gods sake :( this is so sad
11:59	lrenn	grr, thanks folks.
12:00	cemerick	lrenn: if you're locked into ant, but not opposed to using the maven-ant-tasks lib there, the clojure-maven-plugin supports wildcards for choosing which namespaces to compile.
12:03	lrenn	cemerick: thanks but I'm just fooling around with reimplementing lein in ant + ivy :) It's backwards compatible other than having to specify all your namespace :(
12:03	cemerick	heh, ok
12:29	ad4m	I've got a Clojure app that calls for clojure-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar, but I can't seem to find that specific version in any repositories. I have found repos with 1.2.0 snapshot jars with dates in the name, do I just grab one of those and rename it to remove the date?
12:30	Chousuke	ad4m: that name is what you get if you build from git, but renaming a maven snapshot will work as well
12:32	ad4m	Ah, so is the idea that I should have that already in my local repo by way of building it from source?
12:33	Chousuke	probably
12:33	Chousuke	though the clojure build process doesn't actually put it in a maven repo. it just produces a jar
12:34	ad4m	Ok, well I don't know much about Maven either, but I'd assume there's a way to publish things to your local repo or cache or whatever it is called
12:34	ad4m	Thanks
12:44	raek	how is clojure's = done for java arrays? identity? element-wise-=?
12:45	dakrone	raek: the doc is pretty clear about it
12:45	dakrone	,(doc =)
12:45	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
12:47	dakrone	raek: does that make sense? so they are equal if the elements are equal
12:49	stuartsierra	,(= (list 1 2 3) (seq [1 2 3]))
12:49	clojurebot	true
12:50	dakrone	,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3])
12:50	clojurebot	true
12:50	dakrone	even though one's a list and one's a vector
12:50	Chousuke	arrays have identity comparison.
12:50	stuartsierra	,(= (list [:a 1] [:b 2]) {:a 1 :b 2})
12:50	clojurebot	false
12:51	Chousuke	,(seq {:a 1 :b 2})
12:51	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2])
12:51	Chousuke	,(= (into-array [1 2 3]) (into-array [1 2 3]))
12:51	clojurebot	false
12:52	Chousuke	(this is not a bug :))
12:55	slyphon	what's the deal with the "trailing attr-map" style?
12:56	Chousuke	what do you mean?
12:57	tchalvak	Hey, it worked!
12:57	slyphon	what does it look like?
12:57	slyphon	you can do (defn blah "docstr" {:private true} [] )
12:58	slyphon	or even (defn #^{:private true} blah "docstr" [] (println "yay!"))
12:58	slyphon	there's a form where the metadata comes at the end, though
12:59	slyphon	no?
12:59	Chousuke	hm
12:59	tchalvak	So I'm trying to get started with clojure, and I'm running into problems including jars, can I do this, to test that I have the right paths, from within the repl? And if so, what's the actual syntax?
12:59	Chousuke	maybe with multiple arities?
12:59	Chousuke	(doc defn)
12:59	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata"
12:59	slyphon	maybe
12:59	stuartsierra	(defn foo ([x] ...) {:meta ...})
13:00	slyphon	ahhh
13:00	slyphon	ok, i couldn't figure out where the meta went in that form
13:00	slyphon	stuartsierra: thanks
13:00	stuartsierra	test that; I think it's right
13:01	Chousuke	tchalvak: do what?
13:01	slyphon	stuartsierra: yep, that's it, thanks!
13:02	stuartsierra	you're welcome
13:02	tchalvak	Get a jar library loaded, e.g. if I'm running the repl from a folder, and I have a blog/blog.jar file, can I include or require it from within the repl?
13:02	stuartsierra	nope
13:05	tchalvak	Ah.
13:05	raek	is there a simple way to make a hex string from a java byte array?
13:06	bsteuber	tchalvak: but you can check your existing classpath with (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
13:08	tchalvak	bsteuber: nods Ok, I guess that'll work for seeing whether the stuff that I'm trying to load is actually present, guess I'll have to load & reload the repl and test different configs. Thanks.
13:08	bsteuber	tchalvak: yes, I think so - or you can use something like leiningen or maven that sets up the right classpath for you
13:09	dakrone	raek: something like this perhaps: (map #(Integer/toHexString (int %)) [\a \b \c\ \d])
13:09	dakrone	,(map #(Integer/toHexString (int %)) [\a \b \c\ \d])
13:09	clojurebot	("61" "62" "63" "20" "64")
13:09	dakrone	you'll need to convert your byte array to a seq first
13:10	dakrone	,(map #(Integer/toHexString (int %)) (.getBytes "asdf"))
13:10	clojurebot	("61" "73" "64" "66")
13:10	dakrone	or not
13:11	bsteuber	tchalvak: but actually google gives some results for "java modify classpath runtime" - maybe you can experiment with this..
13:12	bsteuber	would be nice to do a clojure wrapper around this
13:12	stuartsierra	Clojure has add-classpath, deprecated because it doesn't work in many environments
13:12	tchalvak	bsteuber: Not to dump lots of text, but: user=> (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
13:12	tchalvak	"/home/tchalvak/sites/threadhack/www/crow-blog:/home/tchalvak/sites/threadhack/ClojureX/lib/clojure.jar:/home/tchalvak/sites/threadhack/ClojureX/lib/clojure-contrib.jar:compojure/compojure.jar:rhino1_7R2/js.jar:blog/admin.clj:blog/config.clj:blog/db.clj:blog/layout.clj:blog/markdown.clj:blog/pages.clj:blog/rss.clj:blog/server.clj:blog/test.clj:blog/tokyocabinet.clj:blog/util.clj:::/home/tchalvak/sites/threadhack/ClojureX/lib/jlin
13:12	tchalvak	So I have all these files actually loaded, so that's good.
13:12	tchalvak	I'm using ClojureX, if y'all are familiar.
13:13	tchalvak	Which allows me to push some jar paths into a .clojure file on a project to project basis, and it's apparently working.
13:13	Chousuke	tchalvak: that's not right.
13:13	Chousuke	tchalvak: you should have the root of the blog dir in the classpath, not the blog files itself
13:14	tchalvak	Now I just have to figure out how to actually access the namespaces in the jars.
13:14	tchalvak	Right, I was kinda confused by that, I'll try that then.
13:14	Chousuke	so that you can have (ns blog.pages) etc.
13:15	hiredman	tchalvak: you have some clojure files (.clj) on the classpath, that is not going to work
13:15	hiredman	I should say in the classpath
13:15	hiredman	jars and directories go on the classpath
13:16	Chousuke	ie. if it's /foo/bar/blog/some.clj, add /foo/bar/ to the classpath
13:16	tchalvak	Chousuke: that applies to both .jar files and .clj files?
13:16	Chousuke	jar files are added directly
13:16	Chousuke	they represent a directory
13:16	tchalvak	Chousuke: Ok, I'll edit based on that then.
13:17	Chousuke	they contain a /foo/bar/whatever.clj hierarchy
13:17	Chousuke	the point is that in java, and in clojure, a namespace segment corresponds to a directory
13:17	Chousuke	except the last one, which is the file/class
13:18	Chousuke	so if you have some directory or jar in a classpath, the directories under it are going to represent namespaces
13:18	Chousuke	again, a jar is essentially just the dir hierarchy packaged into a zip file. you could extract it and it'd work just the same :)
13:23	bsteuber	stuartsierra: thx for the information
13:24	stuartsierra	np
13:34	tchalvak	Chousuke: 'lright, I guess I'm part of the way there, I'll have to go back to the book now and start at the beginning.
13:34	tchalvak	Chousuke: Thanks.
13:42	joshua-choi	I've been reading http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Clojure_Compiler_in_Clojure.
13:42	joshua-choi	What does "written in Clojure" mean?
13:42	joshua-choi	As in, clojure.core and other libraries that use no direct Java and no eval?
13:42	chouser	no, that page is just about the compiler
13:43	slyphon	wow, STM FTW
13:43	joshua-choi	chouser: So it doesn't have to be in "pure" Clojure then?
13:43	chouser	which is currently clojure/lang/Complier.java
13:43	slyphon	talk about "a good idea"
13:43	joshua-choi	Well, that's written in Java.
13:43	chouser	joshua-choi: oh, I see. yeah, I think it will strive to be pretty pure
13:44	cemerick	so, I wonder who's going to knock out a far shorter/simpler version of this... http://wiki.github.com/FaKod/Circuit-Breaker-for-Scala/
13:44	joshua-choi	chouser: Does "pure" mean end-dependent on clojure.core and special forms only?
13:44	chouser	that is, the reader gives it clojure structures, and the compiler analysis phase will produce nested clojure records.
13:45	joshua-choi	Clojure records?
13:45	chouser	the step after that is to produce jvm bytecode, and of course that will use java and be java-specific.
13:45	chouser	yeah, defrecord instances.
13:45	joshua-choi	The reader would spit out raw lists, vectors, maps, and sets. What would need to be translated into records from those?
13:46	chouser	right, that's what the analysis phase of comiplation does now -- takes the raw lists, vectors, etc. and produces a tree of Java objects.
13:46	chouser	the new code would be in clojure instead, do roughly the same kind of analysis and produce a tree of records.
13:46	joshua-choi	What would need to turn into objects? Functions?
13:47	joshua-choi	Oh, I see
13:47	chouser	the analysis phase includes all macroexpansion, type inference, and the necessary gathering of data about primtives, local scopes, local-clearing (to prevent head-holding), etc.
13:48	joshua-choi	Would it matter if the reader was in pure Clojure too? Or could the current Java-implemented reader suffice for the compiler?
13:49	chouser	The reader can be ported to clojure independently. The interface between the reader and compiler is very well understood, so you should be able to mix-n-match implementations.
13:49	chouser	a couple people have written more or less complete Clojure readers in Clojure now.
13:50	joshua-choi	Really? I wrote one too, but I didn't know that there were others.
13:50	chouser	Chousuke and hiredman each wrote one
13:51	chouser	that's not including things very like clojure readers that the various syntax highlighters may have.
13:51	joshua-choi	Do you know if their sources are on GitHub?
13:52	chouser	I think one of the early steps for ccinc will be to make the interface between the compiler's analysis phase and emit phase as stable and accessible as the reader->compiler interface. That will allow compilers and emitters to be developed independently as well.
13:54	joshua-choi	The difference, I think, is that the reader-compiler phase uses standard Clojure data structures, while the compiler current emits weird Java objects that I don't get. :)
13:55	joshua-choi	I don't dare to figure them out.
13:55	chouser	right, that's why I want that to change early, into nice printable records
13:55	chouser	I'm actually kinda itching to get started on that, but I have this pesky book to finish first...
13:55	joshua-choi	It's not that urgent, though, anyway, right?
13:55	hiredman	joshua-choi: http://github.com/hiredman/clojure/blob/readerII/src/clj/clojure/reader.clj
13:56	chouser	hiredman: thanks. I was getting close...
13:56	chouser	oh, I'm in readerIII ...maybe not so close.
13:56	stuartsierra	I started sketching out plans for a reader that was entirely table-based.
13:57	joshua-choi	hiredman: Whoo, that is amazing, and dense. Why did you put your helper methods in a letfn?
13:58	hiredman	joshua-choi: to avoid var lookups in the generated bytecode
13:59	joshua-choi	hiredman: Does it make it that much slower? I've always wondered if I should use let instead of def for my parser libraries...
14:00	hiredman	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_frm/thread/b20ce4b2c226ffcf/26860813d1c39ba1?lnk=gst&q=reader#26860813d1c39ba1
14:00	hiredman	it's not a speed thing it is a bootstrapping thing
14:00	joshua-choi	Ah
14:04	Chousuke	my reader is out of date now though :P
14:04	hiredman	ditto(?)
14:05	chouser	what's changed in the reader??
14:05	Chousuke	meta warnings? :
14:05	hiredman	^ deprication at least
14:06	chouser	oh
14:06	Chousuke	I think I might still be missing some obscure features
14:06	Chousuke	and to be honest this thing has basically no design :P I wrote it as I thought it
14:07	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/blob/clojure-reader/src/clj/clojure/lang/reader.clj
14:07	hiredman	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/images/syntax.png
14:08	hiredman	trace of the method for reading syntax quote stuff
14:08	joshua-choi	Did you generate that?
14:08	Chousuke	I toyed with writing a restartable reader but after I had a restartable string reader I stopped; I wish Clojure had continuations
14:09	Chousuke	oh, and yeah, syntax-quote is horror
14:09	hiredman	joshua-choi: yes
14:09	Chousuke	I tried implementing it as a macro at first but gave up after a lot of frustration
14:10	joshua-choi	Chousuke: When I wrote mine, I cheated and just used `syntax-quote.
14:10	ad4m	Is there a way to add annotations to a class created with proxy?
14:11	hiredman	well, generated as in walked through the code trying to figure out what it did
14:11	joshua-choi	ad4m: I don't think so. It is unfortunate.
14:11	joshua-choi	hiredman: Ah, I meant if you used some program to do it for you.
14:11	ad4m	What about gen-class?
14:12	Chousuke	I don't think Clojure has any support for annotations
14:12	joshua-choi	It's a commonly requested feature. But comparatively low in priority, I think.
14:13	ad4m	Is there any sort of work around?
14:13	chouser	can you use the Java reflection API to adjust annotations?
14:14	ad4m	I don't know. I don't know that much about Java.
14:14	joshua-choi	Do you have a Java library that requires them?
14:15	joshua-choi	In any case, I found http://tutorials.jenkov.com/java-reflection/annotations.html from Google
14:15	sexpbot	"Java Reflection: Annotations"
14:15	ad4m	Yes, I'm using a library named Netty
14:16	technomancy	every time people ask about annotations, it's for netty. I wonder if you could write one Java wrapper around Netty that would let it be used without annotations and be done with it.
14:16	technomancy	would probably be less work than adding annotations to clojure
14:17	technomancy	pareto principle, etc, etc.
14:17	hiredman	ad4m: have you seen http://github.com/texodus/saturnine?
14:18	ad4m	hiredman: Nope, but the one line description makes it sound interesting. I'll check it out.
14:19	danlarkin	I love this: "clojure.contrib.logging integration (is this a feature?)"
14:21	ad4m	Thanks for the various ideas
14:42	zakwilson	I am frequently impressed by the well-reasoned explanations of design decisions posted to clojure.org.
14:52	zakwilson	Is fnparse the only game in town for a Clojure parser library?
14:54	replaca	zakwilson: the only one I know about, but some folks have also used antlr
15:21	jfields	how do I change {:a {:b 1}} to {:a {:b 2}}
15:21	chouser	,(update-in {:a {:b 1}} [:a :b] inc)
15:21	clojurebot	{:a {:b 2}}
15:21	Licenser	jfields:
15:21	Licenser	what chouser sayd
15:21	jfields	cool, thanks all
15:22	jfields	,(update-in {:a {:b 1} :c {:d 1} [:a :b] inc)
15:22	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
15:22	jfields	,(update-in {:a {:b 1} :c {:d 1}} [:a :b] inc)
15:22	clojurebot	{:a {:b 2}, :c {:d 1}}
15:26	Raynes	"If the main difference between Scala and Clojure is syntax then the main difference between an F-22 Raptor and Boeing 777 is paint color." - James Iry on Twitter.
15:27	chouser	Which demands an answer to the question, which is which?
15:29	LauJensen	Incredible that the discussion is still going. Remind me to be careful what I blog about if I'm ever Head of Development anywhere, people pay attention :)
15:31	slyphon	doh, does 'binding' create a recursion point?
15:31	chouser	nope
15:31	slyphon	hrm
15:32	slyphon	chouser: https://gist.github.com/f1044271c41c0880bee6
15:32	slyphon	error: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 0 args, got: 1 (jms_internal.clj:177)
15:32	slyphon	i thought that recur would re-enter from the top of the fn
15:33	chouser	hm, that's a reasonable assumption. :-)
15:33	slyphon	ok! :D
15:33	slyphon	hooray for not being crazy
15:33	slyphon	ohhhh
15:33	dnolen	"@jamesiry and Clojure is the nimble single-seat F-22, Scala the enterprise passenger-bearing beast, right? ;)" - David Nolen on Twitter
15:33	slyphon	jta/with-user-transaction is a macro
15:34	chouser	hm, binding acts funny in a recur loop.
15:34	slyphon	ah
15:34	slyphon	no TCO for you!
15:35	Raynes	I wish that MMEmail guy would do a full on JavaMail Clojure wrapper or similar.
15:35	chouser	slyphon: you're expecting session to retain it's newly-bound value when you recur there?
15:35	slyphon	chouser: yeah, that was the idea
15:35	chouser	I think it might actually behave that way currently, though I don't know that I'd rely on that.
15:35	slyphon	i don't really need to recur there
15:36	slyphon	i can just call myself again, it's not like it's a recursive algorigthm
15:36	slyphon	er
15:36	slyphon	algorithm
15:37	chouser	oh my.
15:37	slyphon_away	chouser: ?
15:38	chouser	binding acts really weird with recur
15:38	slyphon_away	that's good to know
15:38	chouser	like 'set!' almost
15:38	slyphon_away	ouch!
15:39	chouser	oh, maybe not. weird
15:39	hiredman	recur is gnarly, really tco would make things much simpler
15:40	chouser	,(loop [a 1] (prn print-level) (when (< a 3) (binding [print-level 10] (recur (inc a)))))
15:40	clojurebot	30 10 10
15:40	chouser	,print-level
15:40	clojurebot	30
15:41	chouser	actually ... that's exactly right. 'recur' inside binding acts like a recursive call, with the original value restored on final exit.
15:41	chouser	,(loop [a 1] (prn print-level) (when (< a 5) (binding [print-level a] (recur (inc a)))))
15:41	clojurebot	30 1 2 3 4
15:45	Chousuke	chouser: I think that's a good demonstration of how dynamic scope is not "visually" intuitive like lexical scope :)
15:46	Chousuke	even though it often appears to be
15:46	stuartsierra	I've come to the conclusion that dynamic scope is a bug.
15:47	chouser	heh
15:47	Chousuke	kind of like goto is a bug
15:48	chouser	but there are so many clever tricks it can do
15:50	rfg	It makes some java interop stuff much more bearable but one can certainly feel dirty using it.
15:51	chouser	it's not really dirty until you start using 'set!' to return multiple values across multiple stack frames.
15:55	Chousuke	I did that in my implementation of read-time syntax-quote
15:56	chouser	clojure.lang.Compiler does it in several places.
15:57	Chousuke	I certainly hope the cinc compiler will avoid any dynamic binding
15:57	chouser	yeah, and mutable fields.
15:58	Chousuke	it's a bit difficult to make compiler information available to "outsiders" if it's all context-dependent and has dynamic scope :/
15:58	chouser	well, outsiders don't need to see it until it's done mutating ...but, yeah.
15:58	chouser	it shouldn't do that.
16:03	slyphon	does the CLR do TCO?
16:04	slyphon	they just rolled out F#
16:10	slyphon	anyone know what handles the channel logging/publishing in here?
16:10	kotarak	slyphon: ask chouser
16:14	chouser	slyphon: my IRC client logs everything, and then I have a clj program that converts it to html and rsyncs to the web server.
16:14	slyphon	chouser: HA!
16:14	slyphon	awesome
16:14	slyphon	way more low-tech than i expected
16:14	cemerick	The channel logs have a bus factor of 1, though. :-P
16:15	hiredman	59M #clojure.log
16:16	dcnstrct	word on the street is that Oracle will be charging for it's JRE very soon. =^o If this were to happen would it bother you folks ?
16:16	cemerick	dcnstrct: linky?
16:16	slyphon	dcnstrct: i highly suspect that's FUD
16:16	hiredman	is that the word on the street?
16:17	hiredman	I think thats the word on the "what's new" on reddit from a few days ago that didn't get enough votes to make the front page
16:17	cemerick	I doubt they're that stupid.
16:17	slyphon	anyway, isn't gcj like nearly there?
16:17	dcnstrct	http://www.sun.com/software/star/odf_plugin/
16:17	sexpbot	"Sun ODF Plugin for Microsoft Office"
16:17	slyphon	dcnstrct: yes, that's totally different
16:17	hiredman	gcj is garbage
16:18	hiredman	well, it might be good for something
16:18	dcnstrct	according to someone @ oracle's tech support many of their previously free offerings are going to be behind a paywall
16:18	dcnstrct	including the jre
16:18	hiredman	but it is not a general purpose jvm
16:18	dcnstrct	but this is just second hand info
16:19	slyphon	hiredman: i was being "arch"
16:19	dcnstrct	my question though is would it matter much to you guys ? are you perfectly happy with OpenJDK ?
16:20	cemerick	dcnstrct: I think we'd have to actually see something concrete supporting the premise before thinking about much.
16:20	slyphon	i've used the mac version of openjdk, it did what i needed it to do
16:20	slyphon	not w/ clojure, but with jruby
16:20	dcnstrct	cemerick, it's just a conspiracy theory @ the moment, but it would explain why James Gosling resigned in protest.
16:21	slyphon	really? i think he might not have liked the culture @ oracle
16:21	slyphon	i mean, he'd been employed at Sun with that sr. team for like how many years?
16:21	hiredman	danlarkin says if you use the openjdk you'll run into bugs, but I have used it, and haven't to my knowledge run into such
16:22	Licenser	hmm ruby makes me sad this days :(
16:23	hiredman	pffft
16:23	hiredman	who cares, just release a jvm with tailcalls
16:23	hiredman	or fixnums
16:23	hiredman	well, I think I'd prefer tailcalls
16:24	Licenser	I want a jvm that just works
16:24	Licenser	apple should make one
16:24	Licenser	with a nice apple logo and a full metal frame
16:24	hiredman	Licenser: I have one of those
16:24	dcnstrct	yes and then they should mandate that users can only use it with the java programming language
16:24	Licenser	dcnstrct: nah I doubt it
16:25	Licenser	apple prefares objective C
16:25	dcnstrct	oh ya gp
16:25	Licenser	they'll kill java and make ojective C or ruby the main language on the jvm
16:25	hiredman	as it happens the compiler I am working on is source to source and generates java source code
16:26	Licenser	hmm I strongly doubt that oracle will make the jre payware
16:26	Licenser	it would kill it entirely
16:26	dcnstrct	unless their intention is to kill it
16:26	rfg	Anyone want to hazard a guess when dalvik will be "fast enough" for clojure?
16:26	rfg	*if/when
16:26	Licenser	dcnstrct: if I'm not mistaken their projects use java quite a lot right? At least the middleware sector
16:27	Licenser	what I fear more is that they go to neglect java
16:27	dakrone	rfg: I thought the concern was more in dalvik's garbage collector than its speed
16:27	cemerick	Their entire app business is JVM-based. Why talk about conspiracy theories?
16:27	hiredman	rfg: needs a good gc and jit, but as far as I know google's priority is battery life
16:28	stuartsierra	I thought the problem with dalvik was startup time for Clojure RT
16:28	dcnstrct	they could still run their app business while charging for manditory support for jvm downloads
16:28	Licenser	cemerick: yea but it does not mean that they will keep the 'wishes' of the comunity in mind anything like sun
16:28	Licenser	dcnstrct: but half the world would kill them for that :P
16:28	dcnstrct	hahaha
16:28	Licenser	and people would stop using the jvm as platform
16:28	Licenser	which would hurt the jvm
16:29	dcnstrct	well the openjdk stuff would just get stronger
16:29	dcnstrct	and oracle would have to spend less time thinking about the jvm
16:29	Licenser	or .net and the M thingy
16:29	dcnstrct	because it would be "pushed into the open source" more
16:30	dcnstrct	they did the same thing to solaris.. it's free but with a mandatory $90 support contract
16:30	dcnstrct	people still use solaris
16:31	slyphon	my whole shop is solaris
16:31	Licenser	wow they now charge for solaris? Since when
16:32	Licenser	downloaded it just like 2 weeks ago
16:32	slyphon	only if you're running it on non-sun hardware
16:32	slyphon	iirc
16:32	Licenser	ah okay I use it on a v440
16:32	dcnstrct	see.. they're rolling out this new policy on all kinds of stuff that used to be free
16:32	dcnstrct	week after week
16:33	slyphon	dcnstrct: are you just trying to drive Oracle's stock price down?
16:33	dcnstrct	LOL
16:33	dcnstrct	busted
16:33	mfex	hi all, how do I map a function over each value in a hash-map?
16:33	dcnstrct	sell damn you all
16:33	dcnstrct	sell
16:33	hiredman	clojurebot: ticker ORCL
16:34	clojurebot	ORCL; -0.05
16:34	dcnstrct	w00t!
16:35	cemerick	,(map inc (map val {:a 0 :b 1}))
16:35	clojurebot	(1 2)
16:35	Licenser	dcnstrct: I loved sun as a company and I'm very sad they got bought too, and oracle isn#t the same ;(
16:35	cemerick	mfex: ^^
16:35	cemerick	or...
16:35	cemerick	,(map (comp inc val) {:a 0 :b 1})
16:35	clojurebot	(1 2)
16:36	dcnstrct	licenser, care to speculate about what sun's big mistake was ? why did they end up selling ?
16:36	mfex	cemerick, I want to new values bound to the same keys in a map again
16:36	cemerick	ah
16:36	Licenser	dcnstrct: because oracle had way more money
16:36	cemerick	I think there might be a map-map fn to do just that in contrib somewhere. Otherwise, you can do...
16:36	dcnstrct	$_$
16:36	sexpbot	Command not found. No entiendo lo que est?s diciendo.
16:36	mfex	cemerick, so (?? inc {:a 1 :b 2}) -> {:a 2 :b 3}
16:36	Licenser	also I think sun's buiggest mistake was that they were always briliant with new ideas but never got to an end.
16:37	Licenser	Also MySql was a big compeditor for oracle
16:37	cemerick	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a 0 :b 1}] [k (inc v)]))
16:37	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
16:37	cemerick	mfex: ^^
16:37	hiredman	I find it hard to fathom how mysql competes with anything
16:37	mfex	cemerick, thanks
16:38	Licenser	hiredman: it might not be geniuse but it is widely used
16:38	cemerick	mfex: there is a map-map fn floating around somewhere though, that simplifies that a little
16:38	hiredman	,fmap
16:38	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@3e6962>
16:38	dcnstrct	sqlite beats it for most of the use cases I care about
16:39	hiredman	,`fmap
16:39	clojurebot	clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap
16:39	hiredman	,(fmap inc {:a 1 :b 2})
16:39	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 3}
16:39	cemerick	yeah, there you go :-)
16:39	cemerick	hiredman: you know contrib well for someone that doesn't use it. ;-)
16:40	mfex	even better, thanks
16:42	hiredman	cemerick: well, you know, you keep an eye out, snag anything interesting that floats by
16:43	lancepantz	i saw a thread in the google group that mentioned flightcaster.com as the largest site with clojure in production
16:43	lancepantz	does anyone know otherwise?
16:43	cemerick	Sounds plausible.
16:43	cemerick	Do they publicize figures of any kind?
16:43	technomancy	probably depends on how you measure it
16:43	technomancy	LOC, cluster size, team size, etc.
16:45	slyphon	is there something in contrib that does bean but can set values too?
16:45	lancepantz	i'm not sure, but their alexa rank is 330,252
16:45	cemerick	them's some hardcore metrics! ;-)
16:45	lancepantz	makes me nervous
16:46	slyphon	"How many spyware infected nop-heads can you attract to your site?"
16:50	dnolen	interesting JavaScript V8 looks like it's faster than Python 3 or Ruby 1.9. Good target for Clojure?
16:52	dcnstrct	it sure would be cool to have that be 100% clojure
16:52	dcnstrct	go ahead and get started on it would ja ?
16:53	hiredman	clojurebot: scriptjure?
16:53	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:53	hiredman	clojurebot: google scriptjure
16:53	clojurebot	First, out of 57 results is:
16:53	clojurebot	arohner's scriptjure at master - GitHub
16:53	clojurebot	http://github.com/arohner/scriptjure
16:54	dcnstrct	if you called it scriptjure people who write frameworks on top of it would use a biblical naming scheme
16:54	dcnstrct	and that could get pretty ridiculous fast
16:55	hiredman	adam begat cain and cain begat seth(?) and ...
16:55	pjstadig	hehe
16:55	rfg	Ecclejiastes
16:56	pjstadig	pjalms
16:56	dcnstrct	jejus
16:58	dcnstrct	is it plain text search for in-memory arrays ?
17:00	dcnstrct	ahh it's that plus transactions and compression.
17:03	stuartsierra	Anybody here read the RSpec book from Pragmatic ?
17:04	Raynes	stuartsierra: No, but it's on my to-read list right after War and Peace and the Common Lisp spec.
17:05	stuartsierra	umm, not exactly a ringing endorsement
17:06	dcnstrct	I like test/spec a lot better
17:07	dcnstrct	it does all the main stuff you'd need and it's 1/50th the code size
17:07	technomancy	my thoughts on rspec: http://technomancy.us/118
17:07	sexpbot	"in which a hypothetical death occurs in order that a real one may be avoided - Technomancy"
17:08	slyphon	technomancy: :D
17:09	slyphon	rspec is proof of what happens when "the void stares back into you"
17:09	chouser	40KLOC of ruby!?
17:09	slyphon	chouser: it ain't pretty
17:11	nurv	well, i worked for a comp that had about 1.2MLOC of lisp
17:11	nurv	not CL
17:11	chouser	nurv: elisp?
17:11	chouser	;-)
17:12	nurv	no no
17:12	nurv	an in-house dialect
17:12	chouser	ah
17:12	slyphon	yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeuuuuwwwww!
17:12	nurv	it "mostly" worked
17:12	chouser	heh
17:12	zakwilson	Was it the source code for the OS and all included software on a Lisp machine?
17:12	nurv	that is, until it didn't
17:13	nurv	nope, although that would be great
17:13	zakwilson	Did the people who wrote most of the code actually understand Lisp?
17:13	nurv	it ran on hp-ux and some ibm 390s machines
17:13	cemerick	technomancy: LOL @ bludgeon :-D
17:14	nurv	zakwilson, it depends on the project they were working
17:14	zakwilson	bludgeon is pretty funny. It needs more possible outputs though.
17:14	nurv	there were some great coders and some awful ones too
17:14	nurv	but at least it was challenging an fun
17:15	nurv	*and
17:15	zakwilson	Perhaps what you could bludgeon to death with a printout of the source code. (e.g. a fly, a mouse, a whale)
17:15	technomancy	=)
17:15	zakwilson	I'd enjoy working at a company that wrote lots of Lisp.
17:15	hiredman	lisp has been many things to many people
17:16	nurv	btw, rebooting...bbl
17:16	hiredman	~google the evolution of lisp
17:16	clojurebot	First, out of 24500 results is:
17:16	clojurebot	The Evolution of Lisp
17:16	clojurebot	http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.85.8331&rep=rep1&type=pdf
17:16	hiredman	bleh
17:16	hiredman	there are free pdfs if you google
17:22	stuartsierra	technomancy: bludgeon install fails for me
17:23	technomancy	=(
17:23	technomancy	yeah, looks like there's some bitrot
17:23	stuartsierra	I like the concept though
17:24	technomancy	the code is mostly there to make the joke better
17:24	mmarczyk	BLUDGEON_PAGES = 500 # TODO: is this accurate?
17:24	mmarczyk	lol :-)
17:24	mmarczyk	um, hi
17:25	stuartsierra	500 pages is only about 2.5 inches thick
17:25	dcnstrct	are we talking about text on both sides ?
17:25	technomancy	I was going for a standard ream like for a photocopier
17:25	technomancy	if you pack it tightly enough it could be deadly... maybe. further research is required.
17:25	stuartsierra	not sufficiently deadly, in my opinion
17:26	stuartsierra	'cause I've tried bludgeoning the photocopier and never made a dent
17:26	technomancy	patches welcome =)
17:28	stuartsierra	well, I just bought the RSpec eBook, will report how it goes
17:28	technomancy	this is also assuming you have the advantage of surprise
17:29	stuartsierra	ah
17:29	mmarczyk	technomancy: I've read your last blog entry on submissions, very enlightening for me
17:30	mmarczyk	guess I'll be re-sending my clojure-mode patch
17:30	mmarczyk	so, just wanted to ask, would a git-prepared patch file be preferable to a pull request or does it not matter?
17:31	technomancy	mmarczyk: I have a slight preference for pull requests
17:31	mmarczyk	alright
17:31	mmarczyk	I'll make a fresh fork, put my stuff on a topic branch, then send one
17:31	technomancy	for the record, I like all kinds of submissions
17:31	technomancy	so don't stress over it. =)
17:32	mmarczyk	:-)
17:32	mmarczyk	that's about the coloured repl, btw
17:32	mmarczyk	there's also a swank bit to that
17:32	Licenser	if someone is interested I wrote togehter a little article about how to make libs nicely multy version compatible: http://blog.licenser.net/2010/04/22/on-clojure-libs-and-versions
17:32	sexpbot	"lice! : On clojure libs and versions."
17:32	technomancy	sweet
17:32	Licenser	also I fixed my blog after a day of work
17:32	Licenser	doh
17:32	mmarczyk	so... would a defadvice be ok inside swank
17:33	mmarczyk	or would that be better as an "extra recommendation" in the readme
17:33	mmarczyk	(or do I not make sense now...)
17:33	mmarczyk	hm... guess swank uses an advice on M-x slime anyway
17:33	MadWombat	hello
17:34	Licenser	hi MadWombat
17:34	MadWombat	How do you use nth-of-type or first-of-type in enlive?
17:34	technomancy	mmarczyk: sorry, don't have time to check the context on that. it's probably ok though.
17:34	mmarczyk	sure
17:37	slyphon	hrm
17:48	dnolen	MadWombat: you need an extra set of square brackets, [[:div (nth-of-type 2)]]
17:52	raek	Licenser: bookmarked
17:53	raek	honestly, hadn't thought about that stuff
17:56	kotarak	Licenser: daumenhoch for the version range tip. This should be promoted more!
17:56	Licenser	thanks :) I am glad if it helpes
17:59	Licenser	weöö bed time for me, night people!
18:07	livingston	so if I'm working with a swank project with lein and emacs...
18:08	livingston	if I want to work with a lot of source code, what's the preferred way to load it all in / manage that?
18:10	_ato	livingston: I use ido-mode for quickly switching between buffers, if that's what you mean
18:11	_ato	others use things like speedbar to show a tree of files
18:11	livingston	no i just mean loading all my source, when the project open although my classpath is set nothing is loaded
18:11	dnolen	livingston: I used desktop-save and desktop-read
18:12	dnolen	that saves all your open buffers to a file that can be read later
18:12	dnolen	no so hot for multi project setups but works well enough for me.
18:12	livingston	dnolen: oh that sounds useful (but that's another problem)
18:13	dnolen	oh, you mean loading all of your source and sending it to the repl?
18:13	_ato	livingston: if you mean loading into clojure not emacs, just have some main namespace which loads all the others?
18:13	livingston	yeah getting the code into clojure
18:14	livingston	in lisp there was a thing called asdf which managed the pacakage and file dependencies and would load and compile etc.
18:14	technomancy	livingston: in CL, you mean.
18:14	technomancy	sorry, pet peeve
18:15	livingston	i would think lein or something would help me with that too, but I haven't found examples of anything like it.
18:15	technomancy	if you (use 'top.level.ns.that.requires.all.others :reload-all) it would do it
18:15	technomancy	provided you have such a top-level ns
18:15	livingston	technomancy: prior to about 2 years ago lisp and common lisp were fairly interchangable (what else would you be using?), but yes I agree
18:16	technomancy	no love for MACLISP? come on guys...
18:16	technomancy	=)
18:16	livingston	oh, really? that's all I have to do?
18:17	_ato	does CL make things really hard or something?
18:17	livingston	that's pretty sweet, but wait how will it know what order to load all my files in?
18:18	livingston	_ato: no it doesn't, things like ASDF make managing CL pretty straightforward
18:18	nurv	MACLISP... there is an implementation for it to the JVM too.
18:18	nurv	Didn't play much with it though.
18:19	_ato	livingston: the order you specify... if namespace A use/requires B, which in turn use/requires C and then D then that's then they'll be loaded in the order C D B A
18:19	_ato	(assuming they all do so at the top of their code anyway)
18:19	livingston	that makes sense, although... what if I have the same ns in two different files? or is that really bad practice?
18:20	slyphon	gah
18:20	nurv	technomancy\|away maybe you'll enjoy this: http://github.com/hz7k-nzw/lapin
18:20	_brian2_	noob question, i am trying to use exception handler (from dnolen's enlive tutorial) http://clojure.pastebin.com/QMZeeZnq but I get "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Boolean" when i run it
18:20	slyphon	https://gist.github.com/898a45ef78d87bc521ce
18:21	_ato	livingston: then it's only going to pick up one of them, the one that's named to match the namespace (yes it is bad practice)
18:21	slyphon	i'm trying to dynamically call a set method here, but i can't seem to get the escaping syntax correct
18:22	_ato	you can probably get around that by using load-file or some such (kind of like a C #include) but normally you should have namespaces correspond 1 to 1 to files.
18:22	livingston	oh, ok, well, I should stop that then...? but it just seems if I have a lot of code for a ns that naturally falls in a few big chucks I could split the files, but then you're saying they should then have their own subordinate ns each?
18:23	_ato	that's how I think it's intended to work, yes.
18:23	livingston	_ato: ok that makes sense. in CL we could spread it out, but then you specified each file in ASDF and their file level dependancies, so I was expecting to have to do something like that
18:24	livingston	and I guess I could roll my own equivalent of that but why bother if I get it for free with some ns disipline
18:24	dnolen	_brian2_ it just looks like your try/catch syntax is wrong right? true is outside the expr
18:25	_brian2_	dnolen> ok thnks
18:25	_ato	yep, and in my opinion by having namespaces match files then it's easier to remember where stuff is defined
18:26	livingston	well that makes it more like java than CL but that's ok, I've conceeded that that's going to happen to me as I move forward with clojure ;)
18:28	mmarczyk	actually clojure.core is split into a couple of files
18:28	mmarczyk	and there's a bunch of (load "...") forms in core.clj
18:28	mmarczyk	so it's perfectly possible, if not necessarily great for readability
18:29	livingston	I guess there's no real difference from writing (load foo) vs (use foo)
18:29	livingston	and the net effect is basically the same
18:29	mmarczyk	well actually there are fairly significant differences
18:30	mmarczyk	a separate ns can be reloaded separately
18:30	technomancy	core is not always a good example to follow
18:31	mmarczyk	well that I'm entirely in agreement with :-)
18:31	livingston	you could just load one of the files though again independently, I think. but the separate ns is probably better...
18:32	livingston	although then you need a lot of "use" code everywhere to avoid having the qualify the heck out of everything
18:34	_brian2_	dnolen> I'm not sure, I'm just substituting (html/html-resource (java.net.URL. url)) into this (try
18:34	_brian2_	(Class/forName class-name) true
18:34	_brian2_	(catch ClassNotFoundException _ false)) from the book
18:34	mmarczyk	livingston: maybe see http://onclojure.com/2010/02/17/managing-namespaces/ and http://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/
18:34	sexpbot	"Managing namespaces « On Clojure"
18:36	livingston	mmarczyk: cool thanks for the pointers
18:37	mmarczyk	sure
18:37	_ato	livingston: yep, for imports within a project I tend to just 'use all the symbols rather than listing just the ones I want explicitly as is usually recommended, since it's the one project if you introduce something that conflicts you'll know immediately when you try to run it, so it's easy to fix. It's too much hassle and repetition otherwise in my opinion. Listing symbols is definitely a good idea for between projects thoguh.
18:57	livingston	so regarding our previous discussion about namespace and files... if I have a ns foo and that breaks down into foo.bar and foo.baz but there is no actual foo code anymore, I could just create a foo ns that requires (or uses) both?
18:58	livingston	and I would put that foo ns defining code in just a foo.clj file and that's it?
18:59	livingston	there seems to be a naming convention for ".core" though, what's the deal there?
19:00	rfg	This is strange. I have some code where if it reads (first thing) it hangs the repl, but changing it to (take 1 thing) it works.
19:01	mmarczyk	I believe that a namespace foo.bar corresponds to a bar class in the foo package
19:01	mmarczyk	and with a "single-segment" namespace you're putting your class into the default package, or whatever that's called in Java
19:02	livingston	mmarczyk: makes sense I was just trying to figure out how to define/name the foo ns based on best practice
19:03	livingston	there seems to be a "core" naming convention that I was trying to understand
19:03	mmarczyk	well, anyway, if you want a foo.bar.baz namespace, but no foo.bar namespace
19:03	mmarczyk	you don't need a separate .clj file for foo.bar
19:03	Raynes	mmarczyk: Thanks for that correction earlier.
19:05	livingston	I know, I want to break up my code into more files though, and based on some previous advice I think I will give each file it's own ns...
19:05	mmarczyk	Raynes: which correction? you're welcome anyway, though :-)
19:05	livingston	but then I want to create a parent ns to kinda glom it all back together
19:05	Raynes	mmarczyk: I said "vars are immutable" when that isn't what I actually meant. You corrected me.
19:06	rfg	Ah, I see what my problem was.
19:09	mmarczyk	Raynes: ah, you mean in Clojure 101
19:09	Raynes	Indeed.
19:10	mmarczyk	well, I do use the same mental picture
19:11	mmarczyk	of shadowing, I mean
19:11	mmarczyk	for locals, which I hope came across from my posting
19:13	mmarczyk	incidentally, I'm rather enjoying clj101 already :-)
19:17	mmarczyk	livingston: not sure why you'd want to do that
19:18	livingston	so that then I don't have to say :use bar baz etc.. I can just use the parent package/namespace
19:18	mmarczyk	that Google Code project of Konrad Hinsen's might help you with that
19:20	livingston	how do I get clojure to tell me what it thinks the classpath is?
19:21	livingston	mmarczyk: yeah I'll probably end up using konrad's ns+
19:21	rfg	(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
19:22	Borkdude	I also saw this somewhere: (println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
19:22	Borkdude
19:22	mmarczyk	(filter #(.startsWith (name %) "foo.bar") (clojure.contrib.find-namespaces/find-namespaces-on-classpath))
19:23	mmarczyk	though I suppose that's borderline ridiculous
19:23	Borkdude	what exactly is the difference?
19:23	mmarczyk	but you could map clojure.core/use over that
19:25	livingston	thanks. I just wanted to make sure it could see my class, turned out I had a typo somewhere else...
19:28	livingston	if I use a ns foo that itself uses a ns foo.bar don't I get all the symbols in foo and foo.bar?
19:29	arohner	does anyone have a function for elegantly handling functions with optional parameters in the middle
19:29	arohner	like defn
19:29	arohner	(defn-magic foo [a b? c])
19:29	technomancy	livingston: that's what ns+ is for
19:30	livingston	arohner: why can't you put them at the end?
19:30	technomancy	but no, nothing like that is in clojure yet. I have hopes that template namespaces will get included some day.
19:30	arohner	livingston: cause I want it this way :-)
19:30	livingston	technomancy: oh ok, I though I got it all for some reason since the subordinate symbols do all exist in the parent ns
19:31	livingston	arohner: then you have to just use a & rest and pull off the end ones OR
19:31	technomancy	there's not really any such thing as a parent ns. the hierarchy is an illusion.
19:32	livingston	(defn foo [a c] (foo ([a default-for-b c]) ([a b c] ....))
19:33	livingston	technomancy: right, right of course, but I was referring to foo as the parent in the context of (ns foo (use bar)) ... I thought maybe if I used foo I should get all of foo and bar
19:33	livingston	because I though the use brought bar's symbols into the foo ns.
19:34	mmarczyk	arohner: how about (defn foo ([a c] (foo a default-b c)) ([a b c] ...))?
19:34	mmarczyk	livingston: use isn't transitive
19:35	arohner	livingston mmarczyk: yeah, I guess that'll work. thanks
19:35	mmarczyk	in fact, it most definitely shouldn't be
19:36	livingston	i wouldn't really think you would want it to be, but I thought I read it as actually creating the symbols and adding them to the "parent" ns
19:37	mmarczyk	not really
19:37	mmarczyk	see the refer function and the refer method on ns objects
19:37	livingston	well this certainly makes package organization more of a pain.. I think I'll definately get Konrad's ns+ now
19:50	rfg	Is anyone using 1.2 with lein?
19:51	livingston	rfg: i was, but I just broke it, I think..
19:51	rfg	I tried changing to 1.2 in project.clj but running lein deps gives errors.
19:51	livingston	what errors are you seeing?
19:52	livingston	I was running that just fine but now tried to add in ns+ from here: http://code.google.com/p/clj-nstools/
19:52	sexpbot	" clj-nstools - Project Hosting on Google Code"
19:52	livingston	but it's telling me it's missing 1) org.apache.maven:super-pom:jar:2.0
19:53	technomancy	super-pom is maven's way of saying "the current project"
19:53	technomancy	so it's missing one of your project's deps; read up higher in the output
19:54	livingston	Konrad's nstools needs 1.2 master and clojure contrib master , but I'm not quite sure how to figure out what to tell lein to make sure I have what he requires
19:56	rfg	livingston: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98174
19:57	livingston	rfg: that's very much like what i'm seeing, if not exactly
19:58	livingston	so if i'm staring at a github page, how can i figure out exactly what string I need to pass lein to get a given version?
20:03	_ato	rfg: 1.2 hasn't been released; try "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT" instead of "1.2.0"
20:04	rfg	Cheers, will give that a go.
20:04	livingston	_ato: what contrib library goes with that?
20:04	_ato	"1.2.0-SNAPSHOT" i think
20:06	livingston	that seems to work...
20:07	livingston	(except it doesn't for konrad's code I'll email him: UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap)
20:07	livingston	_ato: so how am I supposed to know what tags like "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT" are available for download? / figure that out?
20:08	_ato	the way I do it is look here: http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/ and here http://build.clojure.org/releases/org/clojure/
20:08	sexpbot	"Index of /snapshots/org/clojure/"
20:09	livingston	OH, huh
20:10	livingston	so does lein talk directly to github? or does it go there? because I was looking at tags on github, and there's one called "par" for better support of the parallelization code
20:12	_ato	lein goes there and http://clojars.org/repo/
20:12	sexpbot	"Index of /repo/"
20:12	_ato	not github
20:14	livingston	that makes sense.
20:23	livingston	well, that's unfortunate...
20:23	MadWombat	this is weird, I have an HTML page whith table based layout, there is a single table under body, that contains all the other nested tables. Yet (select page [:body :> :table]) returns 6 separate tables. Am I misunderstanding the way :> works in enlive?
20:23	livingston	I emailed Konrad about nstools, but his autoresponder told me he's out for the week
20:24	livingston	anyone have ns+ working?
20:37	dcnstrct	http://www.lisperati.com/clojure-spels/casting.html
20:37	sexpbot	"Casting SPELs with Clojure - Home -"
20:39	dcnstrct	this is not quite as psychedellic as Ruby's beginner book.. but it looks just as useful and is perhaps even easier to read.
20:40	lancepantz	referring to why's poignant guide?
20:40	dcnstrct	absolutely
20:41	dcnstrct	back in the day it was the cartoon foxes or the half-japanese docs, or the prag book
20:42	dcnstrct	I like this wizard book a little better than why_'s stuff
20:42	lancepantz	naa, i like the foxes
20:42	dcnstrct	well I don't dine on swine so maybe that's why_ I'm a little bias
20:42	dcnstrct	the chunky bacon meme got a little out of control and I never quite got it.
20:43	dcnstrct	this lisp wizard is a boozer
20:44	dcnstrct	admittedly that's probably worse for the community than chunky bacon..
20:47	dnolen	not sure if somebody's already mentioned this here, but KirinDave's podcast is pretty cool: http://www.redmonk.com/cote/2010/04/22/makeall002/
20:48	danlarkin	pretty glorious headshot there
20:58	joshua-choi	It's a shame that Why disappeared from the Internet.
21:01	lancepantz	yeah, pretty strange
21:10	livingston	what's the best way to file a bug report on the 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT build?
21:10	dnolen	livingston: is this something you built from source?
21:11	hiredman	1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT is being constantly rebuilt on hudson
21:11	livingston	there's a bug in the ns macro
21:11	livingston	no
21:11	hiredman	that is what SNAPSHOT means
21:11	livingston	oh that makes sense
21:11	dnolen	what I meant was, where did you get that from? clojars?
21:12	livingston	um, whatever lein just gave me
21:12	hiredman	that comes from hudson
21:12	hiredman	build.clojure.org
21:12	dnolen	hiredman: interesting, I did not know lein pulled from hudson.
21:13	hiredman	build.clojure.org keeps a maven repo
21:13	livingston	so where do I report the bug? assembla?
21:14	hiredman	what makes you think you have a bug?
21:16	dnolen	livingston: I think it's best to bring it up on the ML or here, have people reproduce. You may need a CA to file a bug (I forget)
21:16	livingston	this generates an exception: (ns foo "doc" {:author "livingston"})
21:17	hiredman	why wouldn't that?
21:17	mmarczyk	um, why wouldn't it?
21:17	mmarczyk	:-)
21:17	livingston	which is odd, because you would expect code like that everywhere
21:17	hiredman	have you read the docs for ns?
21:17	livingston	the docs on ns say the args are {:arglists '([name docstring? attr-map? references*])}
21:18	mmarczyk	(ns #^{:author "livingston" :doc "a cool ns to do foo efficiently"} foo)
21:19	livingston	it's not my code, it used to work that way... the ns for KonradHinsen's nstools is defined that way
21:20	hiredman	livingston: are you sure you are on the latest SNAPSHOT build?
21:20	hiredman	(works for me)
21:20	dnolen	ditto
21:20	livingston	yes. is there anyway to make the repl tell me?
21:20	hiredman	clojure-version
21:20	hiredman	,clojure-version
21:20	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
21:21	livingston	shoot - it says 1.1.0
21:21	hiredman	are you using lein repl?
21:21	livingston	damn
21:21	livingston	I'm using lein
21:21	livingston	but starting it from swank-clojure-project in emacs
21:22	dnolen	livingston: that should work, in your lib directory do you have multiple clojure jars ?
21:22	livingston	I thought that was supposed to be a safe way to avoid the fact that lein prefers 1.1.0
21:23	livingston	yes there are multiple there
21:23	dnolen	remove the 1.1.0 one
21:23	dnolen	lein doesn't really do anything in the way of cleanup
21:23	livingston	i just ran lein clean and lein deps and it's gone...
21:24	dnolen	great, yet another thing I did not know about.
21:25	mmarczyk	livingston: which exception are you seeing?
21:25	livingston	damn - ok it's all good now
21:25	livingston	it was saying it couldn't call nth on a persistent map
21:29	livingston	this is the really bad thing about the bleeding edge - every once in a while you get really cut (that was a few hours I'd like to have back)
21:30	mmarczyk	well, I'm using the very latest checkout from GitHub right now
21:30	mmarczyk	nothing seems broken
21:31	dnolen	livingston: luckily 1.2.0 is really close, lein is converging on it as well as clojure-contrib.
21:31	livingston	no it's all fine now - it was the 1.1.0 jar that was left laying around by lein
21:31	mmarczyk	ah, ok
21:31	livingston	why are you going from github?
21:31	mmarczyk	oh, by the way
21:31	mmarczyk	I was going to ask
21:32	livingston	and when will the good parallelization stuff get mainlined?
21:32	mmarczyk	does the current lein HEAD pull in two versions each of ant and ant-launcher
21:32	dnolen	livingston: ?
21:32	livingston	mmarczyk: ask me? , yeah, shoot...
21:32	mmarczyk	for other people, or is it just me
21:33	mmarczyk	livingston: I use my own jars for a play-around REPL
21:33	livingston	dnolen: ? what ?
21:34	livingston	mmarczyk: what do you mean, like your own modified one?
21:35	mmarczyk	not necessarily, just ones which I built here myself
21:35	mmarczyk	for no particular reason
21:35	livingston	oh, well, why bother? unless you like to give bug reports back
21:35	mmarczyk	I already have the sources, I build them to see if anything breaks, then it's more convenient to just use those jars
21:35	mmarczyk	then do a separate download
21:35	mmarczyk	I like to file bug reports when I encounter bugs :-)
21:36	mmarczyk	that happened once so far with c.c build process
21:36	mmarczyk	anyway, that's just something I like to do
21:37	livingston	I don't have multiple ant anythings that I can see,... but lein grabs a ton of stuff I don't ask for, I only ask for clojure, clojure-contrib and swank... maybe if I asked for ant specifically i'd get doubles on things or smethign
21:37	mmarczyk	um, no, I mean the leiningen project itself
21:37	livingston	oh -
21:38	mmarczyk	nvm, I'll bring this up when technomancy appears
21:39	livingston	I can look .. to tell you the truth, I don't even know where lein puts all it's stuff?
21:43	mmarczyk	are you using the stable version or a snapshot from GH?
21:44	mmarczyk	if the former, then I guess you need a launcher script and the rest sits in a jar in your local maven repo
21:45	livingston	me, for lein? it is the stable one there's the script to download and then it seems to like to manage itself, yeah
21:45	livingston	oh, it just runs itself right out of the maven repo?
21:46	mmarczyk	see vim $(which lein) if you're on *nix
21:48	livingston	huh, wouldn't have thought to do it that way myself, but hey less copies of stuff - which is surprising, given the lein general take on that otherwise
21:48	mmarczyk	some irony in that I suppose ;-)
21:49	mmarczyk	btw, how's your unifier coming along?
21:50	livingston	it's good the unifier is just an extremely tiny piece of what I'm ramping up to
21:51	livingston	I was hoping to be further along with a minimalist RDF interface by now
21:53	livingston	thanks for your comments
21:53	mmarczyk	not at all, that was lots of fun
21:54	livingston	it's all going to end up open source so there will be a chunk of code come out regularly, probably
21:56	mmarczyk	cool
21:56	mmarczyk	and what kind of project is it?
21:56	livingston	I do natural language understanding
21:57	livingston	actually my real interest is memory, but the NLP is in there too, since I'm interested in how memory can facilitate nlp
21:58	uberjar	I thought NLP is a way to hypontize girls into comming back to your apartment.
21:58	uberjar	Neuro-linguistic programming
21:59	livingston	yeah it's odd, they can both share a lot of the same concepts too, like memory, etc. makes googling a pain
22:00	mmarczyk	livingston: in this case I'll definitely be reading your code
22:00	mmarczyk	should be of interest to me
22:01	livingston	what do you do?
22:01	uberjar	livingston, how do you do parts of speech tagging ?
22:01	mmarczyk	I'm a logician, mostly
22:01	uberjar	do you have a big dictionary of words and their parts of speech ?
22:02	livingston	uberjar: no and yes...
22:02	livingston	so bottom up approachs to NLP take things through pipelines that almost always start with POS tagging
22:04	livingston	I use a top-down approach to language (because I believe NLP isn't bottom up) and can leverage other things like memory and context which is important to understanding everything
22:04	livingston	the approach I use is called DMAP (Direct Memory Access Parsing)
22:05	livingston	where patterns of text and memory references are mapped to other memory references -- basically.
22:05	livingston	so if the patterns use POS information we look it up and try to leverage it, but there's nothing about the approach that requires it
22:06	uberjar	interesting
22:06	lancepantz	uberjar: most words have more than one sense that have multiple possible parts of speech
22:06	uberjar	where do you get your lexicon file for when you do look it up ?
22:06	uberjar	is that right word for it ?
22:06	livingston	(also I'm punting a little because I'm rewriting it from scratch so I don't have all the details for the new one yet - this is my second DMAP)
22:07	lancepantz	the "best" way to solve the problem is using an iterative rule based tagger, look up the brill tagger
22:07	lancepantz	the most complete lexicon is wordnet
22:07	livingston	lancepantz: yes there is a lot of ambiguity in language - it's everywhere
22:08	lancepantz	word sense disambiguation :)
22:08	livingston	which is why we focus on meaning and integrating with the underlying memory right away, since that's what it's all about anyway
22:08	livingston	if we get information from a POS tagger or whatever along the way, great
22:09	livingston	uberjar: there will be some form of lexicon you have to know what things mean
22:09	livingston	but that's kind of what the patterns are too - "if you see this input it means this"
22:10	lancepantz	i don't thinkg meaning doesn't really has any implications in nlp, what is important is quantifying conceptual similarity
22:10	lancepantz	that's all that meaning really is
22:10	lancepantz	i worked alot on measuring word similarity at a previous job
22:11	livingston	talk to the biologists I work with ... things mean things to them ;)
22:11	uberjar	the only NLP problem I've ever been up against was back in my spamming daze when I needed to build an autoresponder that could try to extract first names out of incomming messages. I ended up just trying to match every captialized word against a first name wordlist.
22:11	livingston	it's not just about words though - it's the whole utterance in context that meaning can be derrived from
22:11	livingston	even who's saying it can change the meaning
22:11	uberjar	then I would try 3 different POS taggin libraries to rule out words.. when too many made the cut
22:12	uberjar	the problem was the larger my first name wordlist the more false positives
22:13	hamza	gents, is there a func anywhere in contrib that can tell me if a val is with in a given range?
22:14	mistra	hi
22:14	mistra	Clojure and Java
22:14	qbg	,(<= 2 5 7)
22:14	clojurebot	true
22:14	livingston	aren't < and > n-ary?
22:14	lancepantz	livingston: in my case it was always trying to measure the similarity of one collection of words to another
22:14	lancepantz	granted, i was working on search though, so the problem may be different from yours
22:14	livingston	yeah ok, that's what I thought (re: < and >)
22:15	livingston	lancepantz: I'm actually trying to understand the text - extract information from it
22:15	slyphon	argh
22:15	lancepantz	can you share an example?
22:15	mistra	it compiles to jvm bytecode
22:15	slyphon	who here is good at macroexpansion?
22:16	uberjar	,(println "I am")
22:16	clojurebot	I am
22:16	slyphon	uberjar: :)
22:16	mistra	it compiles to jvm bytecode
22:16	livingston	lancepantz: biologist publish 2,000 journal-level quality articles a day they can't keep up
22:16	mistra	watchign the videos on youtube
22:16	mistra	search clojure
22:17	livingston	lancepantz: we are trying to say extract what proteins interact with what other proteins, or partisipate in a given funcational pathway, or...
22:17	lancepantz	interesting
22:18	mistra	no want...statement
22:18	mistra	have coffee and have video on subject.... = me happay
22:18	uberjar	mistra, yes.. think of java as a turtle.. clojure is what happens afer the turtle had mutagen for breakfast. It is still a turtle underneath but now it can do more.
22:18	livingston	slyphon: the best thing to do is start with an example of what you want to produce and then write code that cons it up like data
22:19	slyphon	livingston: well
22:20	slyphon	sorry, one sec
22:20	mistra	ok uberjar
22:20	livingston	by the way clojurebot should have answered your question, that he is good at macroexpansion - better than all of us ;)
22:20	uberjar	he did!
22:21	mistra	uberjar you mean 100 times as slow as C?
22:22	uberjar	it's pretty fast
22:22	uberjar	for something that takes out it's own trash
22:22	livingston	lol i totally missed that, very cute
22:23	uberjar	;)
22:23	mistra	and processors seem to have moved along quite smartly in the last fifty years uberjar
22:26	slyphon	https://gist.github.com/29aaebed045617f5d595
22:27	uberjar	mistra, processors were getting smarter, but some programming technologies were getting dumber.. at least for a while
22:27	slyphon	i can't understand how to escape things properly so that at line 11, it treats the value in setter# as the sym
22:28	mistra	which ones however are smart? uberjar
22:28	slyphon	instead of taking the autogenerated symbol name literally
22:28	livingston	so you should always have an example of the input and the code you expect to be produced...
22:29	slyphon	i'm looking at the expansion
22:29	mistra	which ones however are smart? to go with modern quad, octal and other processors uberjar
22:29	uberjar	mistra, the ones with Lots of Irritating Superfluous Parentheses
22:29	uberjar	mistra, functional languages.. ones that avoid mutable state
22:30	mistra	okay
22:30	mistra	so AmigaE is out
22:30	livingston	what you probably want ...
22:30	slyphon	livingston: i just updated it with the macroexpand
22:30	uberjar	mistra, you can do it in C.. it's just painful
22:31	livingston	is setter currently contains a string of the name and you acttually want the symbol, call symbol on that
22:31	slyphon	hmm
22:32	livingston	the macro expand is helpful, but you really want an example of just the plain code you expect your macro to produce
22:32	slyphon	No matching method found: symbol for class mbox.harpo.errors.BogusSetter
22:32	slyphon	i think '.' is doing something evil
22:32	mistra	uberjar How old are you anyway?
22:32	livingston	then you start building a macro up that generates that exact code
22:32	uberjar	mistra, you want one that makes meta-programming easily
22:33	uberjar	mistra, my first CPU was a 486
22:33	mistra	but is too smart not to know ars technica jeremy reimer..... amiga info
22:33	mistra	yes
22:33	mistra	language, irc bot that is realistic leading to one that is useful
22:33	mistra	I like blot
22:33	mistra	I like hEx
22:34	livingston	presuming the map is fixed set of stuff, i would have the macro write it out not produce the doseq bit - if the map isn't fixed, but set at runtime then there is very little reason for you to do that with a macro, just use a function
22:35	mistra	who's te other one....Z?
22:36	livingston	if you are going the macro route I would expect the output of your macro to be simply (do (. obj set-foo 8) (. obj set-bar 9)) so make your macro produce that list of stuff
22:36	uberjar	mistra, ask the wizard http://www.lisperati.com/clojure-spels/casting.html
22:36	sexpbot	"Casting SPELs with Clojure - Home -"
22:37	livingston	slyphon: I'd normally gladly stay and keep helping but I'm so hungry I'm shaking I have to go... good luck. if i'm on later, I'll check in
22:38	slyphon	cool, thanks anyway
22:38	slyphon	good suggestions
22:38	livingston	later everyone and thanks for all the fish, I mean, help.
22:44	mmarczyk	slyphon: why not just make it a function?
22:44	slyphon	mmarczyk: i'm workin on it
22:51	mmarczyk	slyphon: actually I just realised why this perhaps should be a macro, d'oh
22:51	mmarczyk	anyway
22:51	mmarczyk	http://gist.github.com/376105
22:51	mmarczyk	would this work?
22:51	slyphon	yeah, . is a special form
22:52	slyphon	i could try that :)
22:52	mmarczyk	please do :-)
22:52	slyphon	yeah it's the ~@(map ) bit that i don't really know
22:54	slyphon	doh
22:54	slyphon	brb, baby just woke up
22:54	mmarczyk	:-)
22:55	slyphon	oh, cool
22:56	slyphon	I Did Not Know That
22:56	slyphon	hrm
22:56	mmarczyk	:-)
22:56	mmarczyk	~@ splices whatever comes next into the sequence it occurs in
22:56	clojurebot	@ is splicing unquote
22:57	mmarczyk	thanks, clojurebot :-)
22:58	slyphon	yeah, it's kind of like, it makes sense when you use it to splat a bunch of forms that are handed to the macro, but it kind of confuses me when you're generating it inside the macro
22:58	slyphon	hmm
22:58	slyphon	Wrong number of args passed to: core$map
22:58	mmarczyk	argh
22:58	slyphon	yeah, i see it
22:58	mmarczyk	right, of course
22:58	mmarczyk	I'll fix the gist too
22:58	slyphon	so you zip that?
22:58	mmarczyk	(done)
22:59	slyphon	:)
22:59	slyphon	oh, right
22:59	slyphon	map takes multiple args
22:59	slyphon	(duh)
22:59	slyphon	oof
22:59	slyphon	Malformed member expression
22:59	mmarczyk	btw, where are the camelize and upcase functions coming from?
22:59	slyphon	oh
22:59	slyphon	one sec
22:59	slyphon	i ported them from rails, basically
23:00	mmarczyk	oh, ok
23:00	mmarczyk	ok, I see one more thing to fix
23:01	mmarczyk	just a sec
23:01	slyphon	http://gist.github.com/376119
23:01	slyphon	that's the other bits
23:02	slyphon	mmarczyk: ^^
23:02	slyphon	oh
23:02	slyphon	gah
23:02	mmarczyk	make that two things
23:03	mmarczyk	done now, updated the gist
23:03	mmarczyk	should work
23:03	mmarczyk	(macroexpand-1 '(update-bean bs{:foo-bar 7 :byte-property 8}))
23:03	mmarczyk	(clojure.core/doto bs (. setfoo-bar 7) (. setbyte-property 8))
23:03	mmarczyk
23:03	mmarczyk	(with my stand-ins for as-str, camelize, upcase)
23:03	slyphon	:)
23:03	slyphon	http://gist.github.com/376119
23:04	mmarczyk	cool, thanks! :-)
23:04	slyphon	sure
23:04	slyphon	now i just have to put your code at the bottom
23:06	slyphon	mmarczyk: it works!
23:06	slyphon	hooray!
23:08	mmarczyk	:-)))
23:13	slyphon	mmarczyk: ok, now to figure out what the hell this is doing :)
23:15	mmarczyk	yup, that would be the next step ;-)
23:16	mmarczyk	oh, only I might mean it in a different way, since this has just reminded me how I don't really get the Java beans stuff
23:16	slyphon	hah
23:17	slyphon	yeah, i just wanna learn why this works and the thing i did didn't
23:17	slyphon	brb
23:29	mmarczyk	(added a slightly different version to the gist, moving the map outside of ~@; doesn't matter much)