#clojure – 2010-04-12

2010-04-12

00:14	asimjalis	Suppose I wanted to represent Java as sexp, what would be a good notation for this? Are there any examples?
00:15	asimjalis	I want the notation to encompass all possible Java programs.
02:38	Licenser_	morning
03:12	asimjalis	Good morning Licenser.
03:13	asimjalis	What's a way to change compile-path before calling compile?
03:15	asimjalis	(binding)
03:15	asimjalis	"binding" ?
03:16	hiredman	,(doc binding)
03:16	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before. The new bindings are made in parallel (unlike let); all init-exprs are evaluated before the vars are bound to their new values."
03:33	Licenser_	(doc compile)
03:33	clojurebot	"([lib]); Compiles the namespace named by the symbol lib into a set of classfiles. The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
03:33	Licenser_	hi Raynes
03:33	Raynes	Licenser: Hello.
03:34	Licenser_	I've played with the . replacement earlyer
03:35	dcnstrct	,(org.apache.commons.codec.binary.Base64/encodeBase64String "foo")
03:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.commons.codec.binary.Base64
03:36	Raynes	Licenser: Any progress?
03:36	Licenser_	Raynes: yes and no :P it's not trivial
03:37	Licenser_	I managed to replace all dot's with something else but it now does not like the function names since it tries to resolve them :P and I am not entirely sure how to quote them
03:37	Raynes	Hehe.
03:40	Licenser_	sucks to be me :(
03:41	TheBusby	any hints on how to use contrib's slurp* with Shift-JIS encoded HTML?
03:42	Chousuke	hmmh.
03:42	Chousuke	~def slurp*
03:42	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:42	Chousuke	meh
03:42	Chousuke	doesn't it take an encoding parameter?
03:43	TheBusby	ahh, slurp does but slurp* doesn't
03:43	TheBusby	looks like someone patched slurp https://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=121
03:46	dcnstrct	slurp and spit are awesome names btw.. I hope they don't get changed to something boring.
03:46	Chousuke	I wonder if GC already has an API to extract tickets from the issue tracker :/
03:46	Chousuke	the ticket to move them over to assembla is still open :P
03:47	bozhidar	while on the topic of files I was wondering what is the idiomatic way in clojure to work with binary records
03:47	Chousuke	dcnstrct: They also imply (correctly) that they're a bit crude :)
03:47	bozhidar	I can easily port my existing Java code, but it seems so ugly...
03:48	dcnstrct	b
03:48	dcnstrct	err
03:49	dcnstrct	ctrl-x b in the wrong terminal.. sigh
03:49	dcnstrct	if only there was a way to get irssi to run in emacs...
03:50	hoeck	bozhidar: what is your java code using? nio?
03:50	bozhidar	hoeck: yes
03:51	bozhidar	I have a set of null separated binary records
03:51	hoeck	I guess its ok to use nio then
03:51	bozhidar	that I extract and decode, since they are actually text
03:52	hoeck	you could also use seqs of bytes, but I fear that this would be horribly inefficient
03:52	bozhidar	I was just wondering is there is some more clojurish may to do it
03:52	bozhidar	well efficiency is not that of a concern
03:53	hoeck	I'm currently trying to parse the mysql binary log in clojure, and I'm using nio
03:53	bozhidar	I'm teaching free programming courses at the technical university of sofia
03:53	bozhidar	and develop some small open source projects with my students
03:53	bozhidar	to give a feel of what real development is all about
03:54	bozhidar	and this is part of one of those projects
03:54	bozhidar	elegance is more important at this point for me, than efficiency
03:54	bozhidar	hoeck: thanks for the input, I guess I'll stick to nio
03:54	hoeck	when translating your code from java to clojure, you should try to write most functions in a immutable way, e.g. not using .put on your input-buffer, or incrementing counters
03:55	bozhidar	hoeck: I'm trying, but many years of C/C++/Java haven't done much good to my functional thinking
03:56	hoeck	: ), well, its never too late to start over
03:57	Chousuke	if you need to do parsing, you might want to take a look at fnparse for inspiration. maybe
03:57	hoeck	bozhidar: but even writing functional code in c helps understanding the code and makes it more elegant
03:57	Chousuke	I think I saw a DSL library for parsing binary data into data structures somewhere too
03:58	bozhidar	hoeck: when you're mostly working on business or "enterprise" projects the code you typically write all day is - set something/ get something
03:58	bozhidar	there is not a lot of room for creativity...
03:58	hoeck	bozhidar: and if elegance is that important, and you don't need nio specifc things like .position or .order, then building a lazy seq of bytes and parse that might be an elegant solution
03:59	hoeck	I know :/
04:01	bozhidar	hoeck: I'm thinking the same thing about the lazy byte seq
04:02	bozhidar	that way I'd only need the decoder from nio
04:02	bozhidar	and code(although slow) will probably be much more clojurish
04:02	hiredman	, (read-string (binding [print-dup true] (pr-str (struct (create-struct :a :b) 1 2))))
04:02	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
04:02	hiredman	ARGH
04:02	hiredman	not even the exception I was looking for
04:06	hiredman	,(binding [print-dup true] (pr-str (struct (create-struct :a :b) 1 2)))
04:06	clojurebot	"#=(clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap/create {:a 1, :b 2})"
04:06	hiredman	and structmap has no such method as create
04:37	Licenser_	why can't I use binding to change the ns? I try to do: (binding [ns (create-ns 'bla)] (def a 1)) but it ain't working :(
04:37	Licenser_	ah found it
04:58	caljunior	anyone around who tried building couverjure recently?
05:00	caljunior	ls
05:01	caljunior	ls
05:02	caljunior	oh crap
05:21	Raynes	kzar: ping
05:32	Raynes	I feel so special. Who else here had grilled steak and sausage for breakfast?
06:54	licoresse	I am looking for an extended example of how to user the new defprotocl in 1.2
07:27	hamza	c.c.logging docs say, "Unless otherwise specified, the current namespace is used" but how can i tell it to use a different namespace so that i can get rid of #<core$ns_name__5578 clojure.core$ns_name... style junk from the logs.
07:35	sergey_miryanov	hi all!
07:36	sergey_miryanov	i have a problem with mvn clojure:repl under windows. somebody can help me?
07:38	sergey_miryanov	when i type symbols nothing prints on screen, after i press enter typed string prints on screen
07:38	sergey_miryanov	it's really annoing
07:39	AWizzArd	Hi rhickey.
07:39	rhickey	hi
07:40	rhickey	Great phrase from http://twitter.com/therealadam - "Clojure's novel simplicity vs. Scala's familiar complexity"
07:41	rhickey	originally here: http://twitter.com/therealadam/statuses/12001324496
07:48	Licenser_	greetings rhickey
07:49	rhickey	hi
08:02	Licenser_	the more I can really code in clojure the nicer it looks
08:20	chouser	yeah, I saw that tweet. I think it overstates scala's familiarity (thinking of traits, auto-casting, type system details, etc.)
08:21	rhickey	well, is it the features that are familiar, the syntax, or the complexity?
08:30	chouser	the features and syntax are both superficially familiar I suppose
08:35	rhickey	I think the complexity is familiar too, if unrecognized. People just grok the usage rules of one feature at a time and fail to see the accretion of complexity
08:38	mfex	which of these is more clojure-ish? (apply conj '[a b] '[c d]) or (vec (concat '[a b] '[c d]))
08:39	chouser	that's a good point, and applies to features and syntax as well. no whole-hog new syntax, immutable locals, etc. as with clojure.
08:39	rhickey	mfex: neither: (into '[a b] '[c d])
08:40	chouser	and to be fair, scala led me if none too gently toward the immutable locals, lazy seqs (streams), and functional style.
08:40	mfex	rhickey: even better, thanks
08:41	rhickey	I love the quote, very succinct capturing of the issues
08:42	rhickey	and once you overcome the novelty, you are left with simplicity, while in the other case you get the familiarity right away but are left with the complexity for good
08:43	chouser	yup
08:43	rhickey	obviously anything so pithy must oversimplify things a bit
08:44	chouser	I like the framing of it too -- as an observation of the ongoing choices of programmers
08:45	rhickey	chouser: yes, and I think no matter what is said, this true nature of the thing will determine the outcome
08:45	rhickey	because you can't really talk someone into loving a programming language
08:46	chouser	very little of Clojure seems novel anymore. It's actually a bit boring.
08:46	chouser	perhaps this book is burning me out a little. heh.
08:46	rhickey	talk only gets people to try things
08:46	rhickey	very little of Clojure is novel, depending on one's background
08:47	AWizzArd	Yes. A friend who did Mozart a long time understood basically all concepts extremly fast.
08:47	AWizzArd	Thus, he found Clojure simple to use :)
08:49	chouser	rhickey: did you see my idea for a horrible hack on proxy ctors?
08:50	rhickey	chouser: no[e
08:50	rhickey	nope
08:50	chouser	clojure-dev -- I'll get you a link.
08:51	chouser	because I just know you want to see my idea for a horrible hack. :-)
08:52	chouser	groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/8ffac5eac2e1f97a
08:53	chouser	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/8ffac5eac2e1f97a
08:58	rhickey	chouser: but the problem still remains, if you needed access to any data, since that won't be there yet either
08:59	rhickey	i.e. its fields are uninitialized, maybe a non-issue as each method impl is its own closure
09:00	rhickey	but I'd hate to introduce behavior (apparent access to closed-overs) that we couldn't support in reify
09:01	rhickey	and we can't, since its closed overs will be uninitialized fields
09:01	rhickey	(should reify ever support bases with ctors)
09:01	rhickey	sorry I didn't reply earlier - I had seen it but blocked it out in horror
09:01	rhickey	:)
09:08	rhickey	I'm ok with saying - sorry, the evil class made you use gen-class
09:32	chouser	rhickey: heh, yeah, ok.
10:07	slyphon	so if i want to write a java class that implements IMeta, er, how do i do that?
10:13	dnolen	hmm, what is the idiomatic way to reset the value of an agent?
10:13	stuartsierra	dnolen: (send the-agent (constantly "foo"))
10:14	dnolen	stuartsierra: thx
10:19	chouser	slyphon: you want to write it in Java!?
10:20	esj	gents: are protocols meant to support variadics ? Mine are binding & as if it was a variable !
10:24	chouser	esj: no support for variadics in protocols (yet)
10:24	slyphon	chouser: i'm just writing a custom exception class
10:24	chouser	slyphon: have you looked at clojure.contrib.condition ?
10:24	slyphon	yeah, i'm running into trouble with the macro expansion
10:25	chouser	oh, ok.
10:25	esj	chouser: Thanks. Any idea on a timeframe for that ?
10:25	chouser	esj: haven't heard any mentioned, no.
10:26	slyphon	weird stuff, like java NPE in LispReader
10:26	slyphon	and other stuff like trying to come up with a "general catch-all"
10:26	slyphon	https://gist.github.com/9e189a0fb0b57683a778
10:26	esj	bummer. Its pretty central to a lot of stuff: (populate-type x & xs) etc etc
10:29	chouser	esj: rhickey is here, so perhaps he'll be inspired and have that fixed by lunchtime. :-)
10:30	rhickey	chouser: have what fixed?
10:30	chouser	rhickey: add support for variadics to protocols
10:31	chouser	"add" not "fix"
10:32	rhickey	ah
10:33	rhickey	probably not, but you are only a wrapper function way from having an API that is variadic. Remeber, protocols are a minimal spec for implementations, not a totality of an API for users
10:34	rhickey	away
10:34	rhickey	(defn foo [x & xs] (do-foo x xs)) (defprotocol Foo (do-foo [x xs]))
10:37	dnolen	if you call shutdown-agents how do you start things back up again?
10:44	chouser	dnolen: don't call shutdown-agents until you're done. :-)
10:50	dnolen	hmm when driving an animation if you're going to use agent I suppose you have to use send-off and Thread sleep (and hard code a value based on the expected framerate), or is there a better way?
10:50	stuartsierra	dnolen: maybe a timer?
10:51	dnolen	stuartsierra: the timer that calls send-off on the agents ?
10:54	chouser	dnolen: There's an executor for calling functions at regular intervals
10:54	dnolen	chouser: in Clojure?
10:54	stuartsierra	dnolen: I was thinking a timer that observes the state of the agent at a fixed framerate and draws the animation
10:55	dnolen	stuartsierra: sadly the agent can't just keep ploughing through, the calculations take too long.
10:55	chouser	java.util.concurrent.Executors/newSingleThreadScheduledExecutor
10:55	chouser	is what I was thinking
10:55	dnolen	agent -> agents
10:56	stuartsierra	dnolen: What I mean is, do the calculations in the agent actions, and draw your animation in a separate thread.
10:57	dnolen	stuartsierra: that's what I'm doing.
10:57	dnolen	but I need to throttle the agents because otherwise the actions pile up really fast
10:58	chouser	and I'm suggesting that instead of having an agent that calls itself with Thread/sleep, you might consider a ScheduledExecutor to call a fn at regular intervals for you
10:59	dnolen	chouser: hmm. what I'd really like to do is stick with agents but have some way to calculate the thread sleep based on how long the last action took to complete.
11:00	AWizzArd	Is it possible to have a FileInputStream or something like that which acts on a part of a file, for example marked by a byte offset and byte length?
11:01	stuartsierra	dnolen: If you (send agent action) within an agent action, it won't get sent until the current action completes. Is that what you want?
11:01	Licenser	,(throw RuntimeException "Ruuuuuuun Forest Ruuuuuu!")
11:01	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to java.lang.Throwable
11:01	Licenser	,(throw (RuntimeException. "Ruuuuuuun Forest Ruuuuuu!"))
11:01	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Ruuuuuuun Forest Ruuuuuu!
11:01	dnolen	stuartsierra: reall? I'm actually using send-off does that apply for send-off as well?
11:01	stuartsierra	dunon
11:01	stuartsierra	dunno
11:02	S11001001	dnolen: it does, the only difference is that they use different thread pools
11:04	dnolen	hmm, (send agent action) causes poor animation, probably from coordination overhead?
11:05	S11001001	are you relying on the order of action execution?
11:05	stuartsierra	dnolen: still confused: are you drawing the animation in the action function?
11:05	dnolen	stuartsierra: no
11:05	stuartsierra	ok
11:07	dnolen	S11001001: I don't think so. The agents update the "boids" and the render loop reads out the snapshots and renders those.
11:07	dnolen	stuartsierra: hmm, it doesn't look like (send agent action) waits
11:07	dnolen	that's the problem.
11:07	dnolen	even when I stopped my render loop, the agents kept burning on through their piled up actions
11:08	chouser	doesn't wait for what?
11:08	dnolen	chouser: stuartsierra above implied that the action doesn't get sent until the current action complete if you use (send agent action)
11:08	stuartsierra	no no
11:09	stuartsierra	If you send an action WITHIN another action, it waits until the current action finishes.
11:09	chouser	if you do a 'send' or 'send-off' in an action, those don't get queued until the action you're in is done.
11:09	dnolen	stuartsierra: ahh I understand. Which explains the crazy pileup of actions and the reason I need Thread/sleep. I don't want the agent action queue to build up like that.
11:10	stuartsierra	So use the action itself to send the next action.
11:11	dnolen	stuartsierra: I'm getting confused now that's what I'm doing, http://gist.github.com/363662, you can just look at the bottom.
11:14	stuartsierra	I see. I'm not sure that send-off is the right thing to use there.
11:14	stuartsierra	Plain "send" should work.
11:15	dnolen	stuartsierra: the animation suffers with send, actions pile up and it eventually slows to a crawl.
11:15	esj	chouser, rhickey: sorry for vanishing: work called. I'll look at that suggestion, thanks.
11:15	stuartsierra	dnolen: That shouldn't happen. There's something else going on.
11:15	triyo	"Joy of Clojure" has a quote in sec 4.1.2: "It is better to have 100 functions operate on one data abstraction than 10 functions on 10 data structures. -- Rich Hickey". I thought this was a Alan J. Perlis quote. ;-)
11:16	rhickey	triyo: It is a variant of Perlis, who said one data structure
11:17	dnolen	stuartsierra: not sure what that would be, the send part of this code is tiny. Without the send stuff this code works perfectly and the update/renderloop takes about 14-18ms
11:17	triyo	oh I see "one data abstraction"
11:18	esj	triyo: the chapter starts with the Perlis quote.
11:18	stuartsierra	dnolen: huh, I dunno, then
11:18	stuartsierra	sorry
11:35	dnolen	setting up the agents on a separate thread with future and an infinite loop around send/await seems to be the simplest approach in my case, I can get rid of the thread sleep this way.
11:39	hiredman	dnolen: is there some reason you are using agents at all?
11:39	AWizzArd	Btw, what happened with the deftype issue? Are there now two deftypes? How are they called? deftype and defrecord?
11:39	dnolen	hiredman: seemed the easiest way to take advantage of multiple cpus
11:41	hiredman	are you using the stm at all?
11:41	dnolen	hiredman: not at all.
11:41	hiredman	I would look at using queues and executors directly
11:42	chouser	AWizzArd: nothing has changed yet. I think the current plan is 'defrecord'
11:43	AWizzArd	And defrecord will be what currently deftype is yes? But with implicit support for “:as this” and without having to explicitly declare clojure.lang.IPersistentMap?
11:43	dnolen	perhaps, but I was looking for a simple solution. what I can up with only required me to change a small portion of my program.
11:56	AWizzArd	Would it make sense to let all defrecords be java.io.Serializable?
11:56	cemerick	AWizzArd: I've prodded Rich on this before. I'm hoping.
11:57	cemerick	Obviously not for long- or even medium-term storage, but to make stuff like session stores and such work reasonably.
12:03	AWizzArd	why not for long-term storage?
12:07	Licenser	AWizzArd: I guess becase serialisation might change over versions
12:07	cemerick	AWizzArd: because classnames will almost certainly change across versions.
12:08	AWizzArd	Ah ok
12:08	Licenser	I personally prefare a 'neutral' format for storage, json, yaml, (if it has to be) xml or somethin that isn't directly cuppled with the code
12:09	AWizzArd	Even then the class will have to be saved.
12:10	AWizzArd	And that could be (deftype Foo [a b c]) (class (Foo 10 20 30)) ==> namespace.Foo__14052
12:10	AWizzArd	but also with some other number
12:10	cemerick	this is what print-dup is intended to resolve
12:10	Licenser	AWizzArd: depends some kind of data structure
12:16	jfields	what's the best way to convert from a string to a double?
12:17	chouser	,(Double/valueOf "5.1")
12:17	clojurebot	5.1
12:17	dakrone	what's the difference between that and (Double/parseDouble "23")
12:17	jfields	I'm actually trying to (int) Double.parseDouble(element.getAttribute("Quantity").getValue()) - and I don't care about hard casting from double to int
12:17	dakrone	?
12:17	jfields	cool, just wasn't sure if there was a nice clojure wrapper
12:17	chouser	,(Integer/valueOf "5")
12:17	clojurebot	5
12:18	jfields	,(Integer/valueOf "5.1")
12:18	clojurebot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "5.1"
12:18	chouser	,(read-string "5.0")
12:18	clojurebot	5.0
12:18	jfields	interesting, would you recommend read-string chouser?
12:18	chouser	,(map read-string (.split #" " "5.0 5 5M 2/3 foo"))
12:18	clojurebot	(5.0 5 5M 2/3 foo)
12:19	chouser	,(map #(class read-string %) (.split #" " "5.0 5 5M 2/3 foo"))
12:19	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$class
12:19	chouser	,(map (comp class read-string) (.split #" " "5.0 5 5M 2/3 foo"))
12:19	clojurebot	(java.lang.Double java.lang.Integer java.math.BigDecimal clojure.lang.Ratio clojure.lang.Symbol)
12:19	jfields	,(Integer/parseInt "5.1")
12:19	clojurebot	java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "5.1"
12:20	chouser	jfields: depends on the context. If you always want an Integer and it's from an untrusted source, I'd use Integer/valueOf
12:20	jfields	chouser: cool, thanks.
12:21	chouser	if you want to allow a different radix, different types, etc. then read-string is an interesting option.
12:21	chouser	,(read-string "2r010011000101")
12:21	clojurebot	1221
12:22	jfields	it's coming from a trusted source that will always send doubles, so I don't think there's really much difference
12:23	jfields	what about converting from double to int in clojure, any recommendations?
12:23	jfields	,(Math/round 5.1)
12:23	clojurebot	5
12:23	chouser	right, just the Java stuff.
12:23	jfields	chouser: thanks.
12:23	chouser	well, I guess if you've got a Double you can use (int ...)
12:24	cemerick	,(int 5.9)
12:24	clojurebot	5
12:45	vegai	does that clojurebot work inside some kind of a sandbox?
12:45	chouser	yep
12:46	chouser	,(System/exit 1)
12:46	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.1)
12:47	vegai	nice.
12:49	Raynes	$(System/exit 1)
12:49	sexpbot	1
12:49	Raynes	Ugh.
12:49	Raynes	I've screwed stuff up again.
12:50	vegai	huh?
12:50	vegai	$(+ 1 1)
12:50	sexpbot	1
12:50	Raynes	I've screwed stuff up should suffice as an explanation.
12:50	vegai	;)
12:50	vegai	,(+ 1 1)
12:50	clojurebot	2
12:50	vegai	ah, I'm still sane
12:50	vegai	relatively
12:54	vegai	it's hard to appreciate too much the fact that a language's name is unique
12:58	Raynes	$(+ 2 2)
12:58	sexpbot	4
12:58	Raynes	$(System/exit 1)
12:58	sexpbot	Unable to resolve symbol: S in this context
12:58	Raynes	Well, it seemed fixed.
12:59	Raynes	Oh, I see.
13:00	Raynes	$(System/exit 1)
13:00	sexpbot	Unable to resolve symbol: S in this context
13:00	Raynes	Okay, time to go into debug mode. :\|
13:03	Raynes	By golly, I've fixed it.
13:03	Raynes	$(System/exit 1)
13:03	sexpbot	DENIED!
13:03	vegai	$(+ 1 1)
13:03	sexpbot	2
13:03	vegai	funny that breaking it caused that to evaluate to 1
13:03	Raynes	It was tricky, because the $( command requires a bit of special behavior.
13:03	vegai	or was everything evaling to 1?
13:04	Raynes	vegai: I'm not sure exactly how it was parsing the expression, but it was only evaling 1 because it was the last part.
13:04	Raynes	$eval 1
13:04	sexpbot	1
13:05	Raynes	$eval 1)
13:05	sexpbot	1
13:05	Raynes	vegai: It was seeing it like this: System/exit 1), so it was only evaluating 1. :>
13:06	Raynes	$eval System/exit 1)
13:06	sexpbot	Unable to find static field: exit in class java.lang.System
13:06	Raynes	Or not. It must not have seen the first part at all.
13:06	Raynes	Odd.
13:07	drewr	Raynes: /j ##test
13:07	Raynes	drewr: I'm not testing the bot here.
13:07	Raynes	I was demonstrating what I think was wrong because he asked. If that bothered anybody, they could have said so. :)
13:08	Raynes	The bot is also in #clojure-casual for longer discussions or playtime.
13:12	Raynes	Everytime I mention #clojure-casual here, at least 2 people do a quick spy mission to see how many people are there. :>
13:14	dakrone	how many people are there? :P
13:15	Raynes	7
13:15	Raynes	Well, 6.
13:15	Raynes	It's a young channel.
13:15	Raynes	But it's a safe haven for when people like drewr and Lau Jensen ruin all your fun. :p
13:36	LauJensen	Hey team
13:36	dakrone	hey Lau
13:39	Raynes	LauJensen: Hai.
13:39	Raynes	LauJensen: I was just talking about you.
13:39	Raynes	<Raynes> But it's a safe haven for when people like drewr and Lau Jensen ruin all your fun. :p
13:40	LauJensen	What were you talking about? There's no safe haven from me and drewr ...
13:40	Raynes	#clojure-casual
13:41	LauJensen	ah
13:57	chouser	,(map inc (range 5))
13:57	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
13:57	chouser	,(binding [inc dec] (map inc (range 5)))
13:57	clojurebot	(-1 0 1 2 3)
13:57	chouser	,(binding [inc dec] (pmap inc (range 5)))
13:57	clojurebot	(-1 0 1 2 3)
13:57	chouser	why!?
13:58	chouser	shouldn't that last one return (1 2 3 4 5) again?
13:58	hiredman	pmap is eager/lazy
13:58	cemerick	chouser: no
13:58	chouser	but it still does everything in other threads, doesn't it?
13:59	chouser	where inc should no longer have its thread-local binding to dec
14:00	chouser	oh... inc is dereferenced on the outside
14:00	chouser	pmap only sees the actual fn, not the var.
14:00	chouser	ok. I can feel my sanity returning.
14:00	cemerick	chouser: welcome back :-)
14:00	chouser	oh, you're here, are you? :-)
14:01	opqdonut	,(binding [inc dec] (pmap (fn [x] (inc x)) (range 5)))
14:01	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
14:01	opqdonut	now the deref happens in each thread
14:01	cemerick	oftentimes.
14:01	chouser	right. thanks.
14:01	chouser	I just need to complicate my example a bit... :-/
14:02	cemerick	Someone tell all the clojure library writers to use the version config they have at their disposal, and stop using 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.
14:03	technomancy	people don't actually use clojure-http-client, do they? =)
14:03	ipostelnik	technomancy, why?
14:04	The-Kenny	technomancy: I think I or one library I'm using use it somewhere
14:04	Raynes	technomancy: I use clj-apache-http.
14:04	Raynes	:p
14:04	technomancy	just because I don't use it myself, but I wrote it =)
14:05	technomancy	and it's stuck in 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT-land for that reason
14:05	ipostelnik	I think http.agent uses it
14:06	ipostelnik	but I could be wrong
14:07	cemerick	technomancy: I certainly wasn't calling out anyone in particular. I just think hardly anyone writing clojure libs is particularly aware of the consequences of their versions, nevermind SNAPSHOT. There are libs that have had the same version since pre-1.1, and yet been breaking APIs like crazy and moving to some rev of 1.2's HEAD, and etc etc.
14:08	technomancy	yeah, it's only when you work on larger projects that spend 30s+ per build just checking for unnecessary snapshots that you feel the poin
14:09	technomancy	*pain
14:09	cemerick	nah, it's when you're using a different version of clojure than the lib author or when the lib breaks long-standing fn signatures that you feel the pain :-)
14:10	technomancy	well breaking long-standing fn signatures w/o bumping major version numbers isn't SNAPSHOT-specific; it's just sloppiness IMHO.
14:10	technomancy	but yeah, yuck
14:11	cemerick	well, one is ostensibly never supposed to republish any particular non-snapshot version, but yeah
14:11	cemerick	and most repo managers prohibit it by default
14:12	technomancy	breaking in bugfix or point releases is what I'm thinking of
14:12	cemerick	sure
14:35	zakwilson	,(rest "foo")
14:36	clojurebot	(\o \o)
14:36	zakwilson	,(str (rest "foo"))
14:36	clojurebot	"(\\o \\o)"
14:36	zakwilson	Anybody know how to get what I want? (that being: "oo")
14:37	zakwilson	Nevermind. subs does it.
14:38	The-Kenny	zakwilson: Yeah, either .substr, something in c.c.str-utils2 or (apply str (rest "foo"))
14:38	The-Kenny	.substr is propably the best method
14:39	carkh	,(apply str (rest "foo"))
14:39	clojurebot	"oo"
14:39	chouser	(subs "foo" 1)
14:39	chouser	,(subs "foo" 1)
14:40	clojurebot	"oo"
14:43	carkh	i like (rest "foo") it returns a nice little face =P
14:45	chouser	,(symbol (str \\ \o) "")
14:45	clojurebot	\o/
14:45	carkh	haha awesome
14:45	The-Kenny	Oo, I didn't knew about subs
14:48	The-Kenny	chouser: Hah, that's genius
14:49	technomancy	pet peeve: subs doesn't let you count from the end using negative offsets
15:01	chouser	,(list (keyword "-"))
15:01	clojurebot	(:-)
15:19	stuartsierra	What do you do about "Invalid method Code length 68926"?
15:19	LauJensen	M-x apropos Invalid method Code
15:20	stuartsierra	I know what it means; I want to know if there's a way to ignore it.
15:22	stuartsierra	It's a JVM limitation, so probably not.
15:23	chouser	split it up into multiple funcitons I suppose
15:24	stuartsierra	this is metacode
15:24	scottj	stuartsierra: do you have a bunch of data you can put in its own file and read in?
15:24	stuartsierra	it's a big macro expression
15:24	stuartsierra	I can split it up, but less elegantly
15:24	chouser	write a macro that splits it up into multiple functions. :-)
15:24	stuartsierra	It's already a macro.
15:25	stuartsierra	I think the problem is the macro is one giant expression: it fails at the compilation stage.
15:25	chouser	I'm just guessing, but if the problem is the amount of code inlined in a function, a closure should be able to pull out a chunk of it without losing your lexical context.
15:26	chouser	is it like (do a b c ... zzy zzz)?
15:26	stuartsierra	no
15:26	chouser	or more nested? or what?
15:26	stuartsierra	it's (describe ns ....every spec in this namespace...)
15:27	stuartsierra	I don't have to write it that way, but it's convenient.
15:27	chouser	but what does that expand to?
15:28	stuartsierra	(alter-meta! ns assoc :spec #:TestContainer(:children [...every spec in this namespace...]))
15:28	stuartsierra	The whole file is one big expression: that's where it's choking.
15:30	stuartsierra	If I define all the specs (unit tests) within one expression, I can reload the namespace without any old specs left hanging around.
15:30	chouser	what if 'describe' expanded to (do (alter-meta! ns assoc :spec #:TestContainer{}) (alter-meta! ns update-in [:spec :children] conj spec1) (alter-meta! ... spec2) ...) ?
15:31	chouser	dunno if that would help or not, but that's the kind of thing I would try
15:31	stuartsierra	The compiler still has to generate one lambda to evaluate that, doesn't it?
15:32	chouser	possibly. but if it can be broken down like that, then you're back to (do a b c d ... zzz)
15:32	chouser	...and then maybe you can do (do (#(a b c d)) (#(e f g h)) ... (#(zzz))) or something
15:40	stuartsierra	does 'do' compile in a special way?
15:44	stuartsierra	ok, wrapping macroexpansions in ((fn [] ...)) avoids the error
15:46	stuartsierra	thanks
15:50	zkim	Is there a way to cons onto the end of a vector other than assoc?
15:51	kotarak	zkim: conj
15:51	kotarak	,(conj [1 2] 3)
15:51	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
15:51	zkim	kotarak: ah, thanks
16:24	chouser	,(read-string (str (Exception. "foo")))
16:24	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: java.lang.Exception:
16:25	chouser	that's just a weird-looking error.
16:25	zkim	lol
16:25	chouser	we'll pretend I wasn't actually seeing that in my unit tests...
16:26	zkim	Didn't see nothin
16:35	tomsw	I'd like to set a bunch of properties on a java object (an SWT Event) from a map. Is there an easy way?
16:36	tomsw	(set! (. obj prop) value) assumes that prop is a symbol whose name denotes the field to modify
16:36	tomsw	whereas in my case its value will be a symbol whose name etc.
16:37	chouser	these are fields you want to set, not setters you want to call?
16:37	tomsw	chouser: hello, yes
16:37	tomsw	SWT Event has quite a few fields and no setter / getters
16:39	tomsw	set! isn't what I expected it to be (a clojure macro) - maybe I'd be better off with reflection
16:39	chouser	bleh. you might do best to write your own macro
16:39	tomsw	yup
16:39	chouser	you want something like (set-many! obj prop1 val1, prop2 val2, ...) ?
16:41	tomsw	basically. I ended up with an Event factory with the various field names as keyword args, crap like (when keyCode (set! (. keyCode ev) keyCode))
16:41	chouser	oh, you said from a map
16:42	chouser	will it always be a literal map? (set-many! obj {:prop1 val1, :prop2 val2}) or do you want to support (set-many! obj a-map)
16:42	tomsw	well that was the other thing, keyword args in Clojure seem to be used (func {:arg1 v1 :arg2 v2}) instead of (func :arg1 v1 :arg2 v2)
16:43	chouser	nah, each is preferred by a different set of Clojurites.
16:43	chouser	I think rhickey is in the latter camp. :-)
16:43	tomsw	i better find out how to do the latter because I'm in that camp too, CL baggage I suppose
16:44	chouser	if you do it the latter way, it's clear you can't just pass in a map at runtime, which can allow you to do some clever performance things at compile time.
16:46	tomsw	well a (set-many! obj :prop1 v1 etc) macro would be a lot easier to write than a (set-many! obj map) one
16:51	tomsw	I suppose the (set-many! obj prop-val-map) version would have to use eval?
17:01	StartsWithK	tomsw http://paste.pocoo.org/show/201170/
17:04	carkh	StartsWithK: did you have any success with fuzzy matching of java methods in clojure-mode ?
17:04	carkh	or swank-clojure really
17:05	StartsWithK	i never used emacs
17:05	StartsWithK	wrong nick?
17:05	carkh	oh hum sorry .... must be someone else !
17:06	carkh	it was the-kenny =P
17:06	carkh	second word starts with k anyways
17:07	The-Kenny	carkh: Not really, sorry. I just played a bit around, nothing really serious.
17:07	carkh	no big deal, i was just curious
17:50	esj	excuse me clojure-bot...
17:50	esj	,(rem (nth ((fn fibo
17:50	esj	([]
17:50	clojurebot	EOF while reading
17:50	esj	(concat [0 1] (fibo 0 1)))
17:50	esj	([a b]
17:50	esj	(let [n (+ a b)]
17:50	esj	(lazy-seq
17:50	esj	(cons n (fibo b n))))))) 1000000) 1000)
17:50	esj	hmm.... that won't save you for long...
17:51	esj	,(rem (nth ((fn fibo ([] (concat [0 1] (fibo 0 1))) ([a b] (let [n (+ a b)] (lazy-seq (cons n (fibo b n))))))) 1000000) 1000)
17:51	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:51	The-Kenny	esj: You can query clojurebot. That won't spam this channel
17:51	esj	actually it was all leading to a question
17:51	esj	that code shouldn't cause a Heap overflow
17:52	esj	according to http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/57a12f1a0dab5e1b/cb3db6e6ac94092f?#cb3db6e6ac94092f
17:53	esj	but it does on my machine. If I understand things, clojure should be GC'ing the seq as the calculation rolls along, but on my machine in getting a Heap overflow. What stupidity has trapped me this time ?
17:54	carkh	do you have any idea on the size of the bigint you're making ?
17:55	esj	carkh: what you're saying is that its a single number that's overflowing the heap ?!
17:56	carkh	hum looks like it isn't
17:56	carkh	it's working here
17:58	Chousuke	nth shouldn't hold the head either I guess
17:58	Chousuke	,(nth (range 10000000) 10000)
17:58	clojurebot	10000
17:58	carkh	thos my java process is now 1.6gb =P
17:58	Chousuke	hmm
17:58	Chousuke	,(indexed? (range 10))
17:58	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: indexed? in this context
17:59	Chousuke	,(instance? (range 10) clojure.lang.Indexed)
17:59	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Class
17:59	Chousuke	,(instance? clojure.lang.Indexed (range 10))
17:59	clojurebot	false
17:59	Chousuke	meh
18:01	esj	carkh: I guess your GC figure it didn't need to run, so hasn't yet.
18:01	esj	but what's exercising me, is that mine should have, but couldn't, apparently.
18:03	carkh	does it work with the fib-naive2 that's a bit lower int he thread ?
18:06	esj	carkh: that did work !
18:07	esj	so the number can be represented, but something in the lazy-seq is going awry
18:08	carkh	~def nth
18:09	lancepantz	can anyone make out what is wrong with this route? (defroutes actions (POST (route-compile "/:id/:action" {:id #"\w+-\d+" :action #"\d+"}) [id action] "hi"))
18:10	lancepantz	i get symbol cannot be cast as charSequence
18:10	lancepantz	it works just fine in a repl with the clout function only, only breaks when i put it in the defroutes
18:20	lancepantz	looks like that is a now fixed bug
19:16	programble	how do i tell if, for example, :foo is in a seqence?
19:16	programble	[:foo :bar :baz] returns true
19:17	programble	[ :bar :baz] returns false
19:17	arbscht	,(.contains [:foo :bar :baz] :foo)
19:17	clojurebot	true
19:17	arbscht	,(.contains [:bar :baz] :foo)
19:17	clojurebot	false
19:17	arbscht	that's one way
19:17	programble	ah
19:17	programble	thanks
19:18	programble	no more clojure-y way?
19:18	arbscht	that is clojure-y -- clojure is a hosted language ;)
19:19	technomancy	(contains? (set my-vec))
19:19	arbscht	,(some #(= :foo %) [:foo :bar :baz])
19:19	clojurebot	true
19:19	arbscht	and so on
19:20	arbscht	,(clojure.contrib.seq/includes? [:foo :bar :baz] :foo)
19:20	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.seq
19:21	arbscht	,(require 'clojure.contrib.seq)
19:21	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/seq__init.class or clojure/contrib/seq.clj on classpath:
19:21	arbscht	hrm
19:21	arbscht	anyway, that's neater than some, if you don't mind the dependency
19:24	programble	urgh
19:24	programble	clojure needs a re-split
19:25	technomancy	it's in contrib's str-utils, but yeah
19:25	technomancy	and regexes need to be callable =\
19:25	programble	clojure.contrib.str-utils/re-split ?
19:26	arbscht	it's 'split' in the new string lib
19:30	programble	eh, ill just use (.split #"regex" s)
19:31	programble	was writing a function to collapse whitespace
19:31	programble	(defn collapse-whitespace [s] (->> s (.split #"\s+") seq (interpose " ") (apply str)))
19:32	programble	it works
19:34	tomoj	do you think a better syntax could make this usable? https://gist.github.com/43e7d7d5248e6d639eea
19:35	tomoj	I just don't like having to choose between -> and ->> :)
20:17	SynrG	hm. where do patches to the 'clj' script included in ClojureX go?
20:22	cheezey	so how would i go about making a lexer in clojure? :p
20:22	slyphon	hrm
20:24	cheezey	hrm =__= so like i would prefer it being recursive, or something ;x
20:24	cheezey	i think most lexers are.. ?
20:24	carkh	you mean a lexer lexer or a parser ?
20:24	slyphon	gha
20:25	carkh	i mean, do you need a lexer specifically ?
20:26	cheezey	carkh: lexer im fairly certain. tokens and stuff right? :P
20:26	carkh	what's the goal ?
20:26	cheezey	carkh: lexing some maths. like 2+3+5
20:26	slyphon	maths!
20:26	carkh	i'd go for a full blown parser =P
20:26	carkh	using fnparse
20:27	carkh	http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse
20:27	cheezey	hm.. well so there's no easy way of doing this without the library?
20:28	carkh	a lexer will only go to a point
20:28	cheezey	well i mean i think i need a lexer eventually so that's why i'd like to learn it :o
20:28	carkh	there is a hierarchy in a math expression, a lexer won't proide you with that
20:28	carkh	provide*
20:28	cheezey	carkh: yeah i know. the parser will do that portion =XXX
20:28	cheezey	so future question: how do i write a parser LoL
20:29	carkh	that second question, there are book written about it
20:29	carkh	booksss
20:29	slyphon	the dragon!
20:29	slyphon	beware the dragon!
20:29	cheezey	carkh: i mean in clojure =_=
20:29	slyphon	the underlying principles are the same
20:29	cheezey	sorry im still new to functional so :\
20:29	carkh	well, even if you want to do it yourself, i'd skip the lexer part and go directly for a recursive descent parser
20:29	carkh	that's the easier to do
20:30	cheezey	i just dont know if im missing some command that would simplify it
20:31	carkh	but it's a lot of work with lots of edge cases, way easier to use an existing library
20:33	zakwilson	Should (clojure.contrib.duck-streams/spit "foo" a-map) produce output readable with (read-string (slurp "foo"))? I'm having a problem where the read throws "java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: :"
20:34	carkh	try replacing a-map with (with-out-str (prn a-map))
20:35	carkh	or pr instead of prn
20:37	carkh	,(read-string (with-out-str (pr {:a "blah"})))
20:37	clojurebot	{:a "blah"}
20:38	zakwilson	Looks usable. Let's see if it breaks when fed a 26,000 item map.
20:38	carkh	ahwell then you should directly print to a stream
20:38	carkh	instead of passing through a string representation
20:39	zakwilson	I bought a machine with 4 gigs of RAM so I could properly abuse it!
20:39	cheezey	LoL
20:41	zakwilson	I'm just glad Clojure's maps are more space-efficient than Haskell's.
20:42	carkh	oh they are ?
20:44	zakwilson	A map of keywords to ints seems to use less than half the space of a Data.IntMap of 32-bit hashes to ints.
20:44	zakwilson	And a Data.Map String Int is even bigger.
20:44	zakwilson	Map operations in Haskell are faster though.
20:46	cheezey	this is probably a really dumb question but why can't i do (cond (true)(true))? o_O
20:46	zakwilson	Because true isn't a function.
20:47	zakwilson	,(cond true true)
20:47	clojurebot	true
20:47	cheezey	ya i am dumb lulzzz
20:57	TheBusby	my favorite error message;
20:57	TheBusby	,(let [count 5 mylist [1 2 3]] (count mylist))
20:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
20:58	hiredman	with invokedynamic you could inject the IFn interface into Number to name Numbers work like (0 [1]) => 1
20:59	Raynes	Would anybody find title-scraping of links useful? programble and I just added title scraping to sexpbot, but I didn't want to enable it here unless anybody thinks it might be useful.
20:59	Raynes	It only scrapes the titles of a maximum of 3 links in a message.
21:01	Raynes	Well, I have to go. I'll check back on that.
21:03	Raynes	As a quick example, I'll leave this here http://github.com
21:03	sexpbot	Secure source code hosting and collaborative development - GitHub
21:03	zakwilson	(with-open [wtr (BufferedWriter. (FileWriter. "foo"))] (.write wtr (with-out-str (pr a-map)))) results in an empty file. That's... not what I expected. Should I just get some sleep?
21:04	zakwilson	Oh, wait... no it doesn't. I was looking at the wrong file. That settles it. I SHOULD just get some sleep.
21:04	scottj	Raynes: I think that's very useful.
21:05	_ato	probably want to turn it off for gists and pastebins and such though, that'd just get annoying fast
21:05	scottj	Raynes: I'd most like it on google groups and youtube links
21:13	Raynes	_ato: That would take a little redesigning, but turning it off for specific links is definitely doable. Good idea.
21:38	slyphon	argh
21:38	slyphon	variadic macros are eating my brane
22:01	webwanderer	how do i get the index of a sequence i'm mapping through?
22:02	tomoj	clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed I think
22:03	webwanderer	cool
22:03	tomoj	,(for [[i x] (map vector [:foo :bar :baz] (iterate inc 0))] [i x])
22:03	clojurebot	([:foo 0] [:bar 1] [:baz 2])
22:28	TheBusby	anyone have any experience using java's CookieManager to access website content that requires login?
22:46	lancepantz	is there a neater way to write this?: (-> blob (get 1) (get 2) (get "edges") (get 0) (get "to_id"))
22:50	tomoj	,(get-in [:foo [:bar :baz {"edges" [{"to_id" 10}]}]] [1 2 "edges" 0 "to_id"])
22:50	clojurebot	10
22:50	tomoj	I'd be interested to hear how you're modeling graphs, if that's what you're doing
22:50	lancepantz	oh, perfect man
22:50	tomoj	clojure style is to use keywords instead of strings
22:50	tomoj	:edges instead of "edges" I mean
22:51	hiredman	to-id vs to_id
22:51	lancepantz	yeah, i do in most places, this is just a test thats loading a blob from sql
22:51	tomoj	ah
22:51	lancepantz	and this is my graph library: http://github.com/ninjudd/jiraph
22:51	sexpbot	ninjudd's jiraph at master - GitHub
22:55	tomoj	lancepantz: very interesting
22:55	tomoj	thanks
23:07	technomancy	oh man... I saw a thread titled "removing parentheses" on the mailing list... I was sure it was going to be about "let's make clojure use indentation instead of parens so the newbies will love it like Python!"
23:07	technomancy	we're about overdue for that, aren't we?
23:07	technomancy	luckily it was about flattening nested lists
23:07	kiras	lol
23:08	kiras	although, now that you mention it...
23:08	danlarkin	but... but.. everyone /knows/ the problem with lisp is the parens!
23:21	technomancy	clojurebot: botsmack is <reply>clojurebot evades successfully!
23:21	clojurebot	c'est bon!
23:22	technomancy	that way it'll randomly choose between the two, right?
23:22	technomancy	,botsmack
23:22	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: botsmack in this context
23:22	technomancy	~botsmack
23:22	clojurebot	Owww!
23:22	technomancy	~botsmack
23:22	clojurebot	clojurebot evades successfully!
23:22	technomancy	~botsnack
23:22	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
23:24	kiras	lol
23:25	hugod	what is the idiomatic way of going from {:a 1 :b 2} to [:a 1 :b 2] - (apply concat (seq {:a 1 :b 2})) ?
23:28	carkh	why the seq call ?
23:28	carkh	(apply concat {:a 1 :b 2})
23:28	dnolen	,(into (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2}))
23:28	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$into
23:28	dnolen	,(into (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2})))
23:28	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$into
23:28	carkh	,(mapcat identity {:a 1 :b 2})
23:28	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b 2)
23:28	technomancy	,(read-string (apply str (replace {\{ \[ \} \]} (pr-str {:a 1 :b 1}))))
23:28	clojurebot	[:a 1 :b 1]
23:28	technomancy	(just kidding)
23:28	dnolen	,(into [] (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2}))
23:28	clojurebot	[:a 1 :b 2]
23:28	dnolen	erge
23:29	carkh	,(vec (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2}))
23:29	clojurebot	[:a 1 :b 2]
23:29	dnolen	does vec use transients?
23:30	carkh	i don't know, look at the source =P
23:30	carkh	~def vec
23:30	carkh	not very telling
23:31	dnolen	doesn't look like it.
23:31	dnolen	i think (into [] ...) is the expected pattern for converting things back to vectors quickly
23:31	hugod	thanks all, I can go back to my glass of wine now
23:32	technomancy	as long as you haven't had enough to take my suggestion seriously =)
23:33	hugod	enough to have trouble typing it, even if I did
23:36	technomancy	what exactly is the point of the cons class?
23:36	technomancy	~(list? (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)))
23:36	clojurebot	Huh?
23:36	technomancy	,(list? (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)))
23:36	clojurebot	false
23:36	technomancy	,(list? (cons 1 nil))
23:36	clojurebot	true
23:36	technomancy	this boggles me
23:37	hiredman	you use cons to build lazy seqs
23:37	technomancy	it's also used in some other places
23:37	technomancy	if you call a macro inside a macro, some of the code comes through as conses instead of lists
23:38	hiredman	sure
23:38	hiredman	syntax-quote tearing through things
23:39	technomancy	I guess all that to say: never use list?, because it will betray you
23:39	technomancy	since it doesn't return true for some kinds of lists
23:39	technomancy	(conses and lazy seqs)
23:39	hiredman	,(doc list?)
23:39	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentList"
23:40	technomancy	sure, but conses and lazy seqs are both persistent lists
23:40	technomancy	they're just not Persistent Lists
23:40	hiredman	shrug
23:41	technomancy	seems like a leaky abstraction
23:42	hiredman	,(doc list?)
23:42	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentList"
23:43	hiredman	IPersistentList is Counted
23:43	hiredman	they are not lazy
23:44	technomancy	I guess conses aren't counted either
23:45	hiredman	right, and the tail of a cons maybe lazy or not
23:45	technomancy	I just can't think of any situation in which you'd care about IPersistentList over listiness
23:45	technomancy	since we've already got counted?
23:46	hiredman	shrug*
23:47	technomancy	hiredman: dude, shrug* is for internal use only.
23:47	dnolen	is it possible to check if something is lazy?
23:47	hiredman	hey, I having three conversations here, and I don't even have an stm
23:48	jcowan	How can you be sure you don't?
23:48	technomancy	dnolen: if it's a seq?, it's not counted?, and it's not a cons it might be lazy
23:48	technomancy	or it might be some crazy new seq somebody reified out of thin air
23:49	jcowan	Huh. The topic hasn't changed since I set it two years ago? Wow.
23:49	hiredman	no ops
23:50	tomoj	coi ui doi jy
23:50	tomoj	didn't know you were involved
23:50	technomancy	jcowan: yeah, I think we've all been waiting for you to return =)
23:50	jcowan	I was back then. Haven't been for a long time, thinking about getting involved again.
23:50	dnolen	jcowan: it's a whole different world now.
23:51	technomancy	dnolen: well, mostly. there's still no canonical shell script. =)
23:51	technomancy	other than that it's all rainbows and unicorn marshmallows though.
23:51	technomancy	oh, and people still get confused by contains? I guess.
23:52	tomoj	I never hear people complaining about tail recursion
23:53	jcowan	Perhaps that will be my contribution, then. :-)
23:53	tomoj	I wonder if it's bad that I never find myself wanting it
23:53	technomancy	there is a build of openjdk 7 that enables it IIRC
23:53	technomancy	if I were really bored I would try to hunt that down
23:53	jcowan	It's a way of thinking. If you don't have it, you don't miss it.
23:54	dnolen	you also have laziness which lets you do a whole other set of interesting recursive tricks.
23:54	jcowan	Quite so.
23:54	jcowan	And if you want both, then there's shudder Haskell.
23:55	tomoj	hah
23:57	technomancy	ok... riddle me this then: why does PersistentHashMap use Util.equals instead of Util.equiv
23:57	technomancy	since it looks like Util.equiv behaves sanely in the presence of longs vs ints, etc
23:57	dnolen	it's finally beginning to dawn on me the ridiculous power of persistent data structures + dynamic typing, now I want them everything.
23:57	hiredman	because PHM implements j.u.Map
23:58	technomancy	,(clojure.lang.Util/equals 1 (long 1))
23:58	dnolen	everything -> everywhere
23:58	clojurebot	false
23:58	hiredman	and the contract for j.u.Map's .equals is not the same as Util.equiv
23:58	technomancy	ouch
23:59	technomancy	how can they fit so much awesome into such close proximity with so much bustedness?
23:59	tomoj	wow
23:59	technomancy	the JVM is amazing
23:59	tomoj	I never realized that