#clojure – 2010-04-11

2010-04-11

00:51	Drakeson	After deftype'ing foo, how can I create an instance with named arguments? (deftype foo [a b]) (foo {:a 1 :b 2}) fails.
00:52	hiredman	(defn foo-named [& {:keys [a b]}] (foo a b))
00:55	Drakeson	hiredman: thanks. I was hoping for a deftypek or something like that
00:58	carkh	,(let [a (fn [& {:keys [a b]}] [a b])] (a {:a 1 :b 2})
00:58	clojurebot	EOF while reading
00:58	carkh	,(let [a (fn [& {:keys [a b]}] [a b])] (a {:a 1 :b 2}))
00:58	clojurebot	[nil nil]
00:58	carkh	ok the & was an error, right ?
00:58	carkh	i hoped for a new syntaw for named parameters
00:59	hiredman	right
00:59	hiredman	if you are passing a map
00:59	hiredman	,(let [a (fn [& {:keys [a b]}] [a b])] (a :a 1 :b 2))
00:59	hiredman	,(let [a (fn [& {:keys [a b]}] [a b])] (a :a 1 :b 2))
00:59	clojurebot	[nil nil]
00:59	hiredman	bah
00:59	hiredman	clojurebot isn't running a new enough clojure
00:59	carkh	ok so that's a new syntax ? cool !
01:00	carkh	beause defnk has the problem that it's not showing a very informative parameter list in slime
01:00	hiredman	clojurebot: git 277f0235c1387ddd6247a72857597814a3e10bc3
01:00	clojurebot	add &form and &env implicit args to macros
01:00	hiredman	bah
01:00	hiredman	:D
01:01	hiredman	clojurebot: git 5772be9fc5ac9ddf92b727908c20b9aab971224a
01:01	clojurebot	gitorious mirror is http://gitorious.org/clojure/clojure
01:01	Drakeson	it is a commit of march 23
01:01	hiredman	clojurebot: github 5772be9fc5ac9ddf92b727908c20b9aab971224a
01:01	clojurebot	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/tree/master
01:01	hiredman	clojurebot: you suck
01:01	clojurebot	excusez-moi
01:01	hiredman	anyway, a patch of mine made it in
01:01	hiredman	sweet
01:02	carkh	yay for you =)
01:03	carkh	i can't wait for 1.2
01:03	hiredman	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/5772be9fc5ac9ddf92b727908c20b9aab971224a
01:59	defn	how does one "turn on" the new {} = everything syntax?
02:00	defn	{reduce + {1 2 3 4}}, etc.
02:00	chouser	??
02:01	defn	I saw an example where there are no []s or ()s, just {}s
02:01	chouser	never heard of it
02:01	defn	huh, really?
02:02	hiredman	no such thing
02:02	defn	ill see if i can find the post that mentioned it
02:02	chouser	you're sure it was clojure and not some kind of scheme?
02:02	defn	i wonder if it was on april 1st
02:02	defn	:)
02:03	TakeV	defn: That was April Fools, yeah. :P
02:04	defn	bahahaha i feel so silly
02:04	defn	who wrote that?
02:04	defn	i need to kill them...
02:06	defn	ah yes, sean devlin
02:06	defn	that monster...
02:08	TakeV	That was along with something like "Everything returns void now, so it's really easy to make all your function full of side effects. This is awesome."
02:09	defn	hahaha yes now that im watching it again i get the joke -- i was just listening along working on something else and looked over when he mentioned the "new" syntax
02:52	scottj	in joy of clojure they have (in C like languages), "a == b && b == c && a == c". Why do you need the last one? What would be a case where the first two tests being true wouldn't have the third be true?
03:01	gregh	perhaps the case where == is an overloaded operator that does not have the transitive property
03:01	gregh	== is transitive for usual data types like integers and strings
03:01	gregh	a non-transitive == operator would be highly unusual, actually :)
03:26	Raynes	,(macroexpand '(doseq [x [1 2 3]] (println x))
03:26	clojurebot	EOF while reading
03:27	Raynes	,(macroexpand '(doseq [x [1 2 3]] (println x)))
03:27	clojurebot	(loop* [seq_9167 (clojure.core/seq [1 2 3]) chunk_9168 nil count_9169 (clojure.core/int 0) i_9170 (clojure.core/int 0)] (if (clojure.core/< i_9170 count_9169) (clojure.core/let [x (.nth chunk_9168 i_9170)] (do (println x)) (recur seq_9167 chunk_9168 count_9169 (clojure.core/unchecked-inc i_9170))) (clojure.core/when-let [seq_9167 (clojure.core/seq seq_9167)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? seq_9167) (clojure.core/let [c__52
03:27	Raynes	Oh boy.
03:30	chouser	you think that's bad, you should look at 'for'
03:30	Raynes	Licenser: ping.
03:31	Raynes	chouser: For some reason, clj-sandbox isn't whitelisting that. That means that one of of the functions it uses isn't whitelisted, but it looks like everything but println is whitelisted, and println is whitelisted locally in sexpbot so I think it should be working.
03:32	Raynes	This sucks.
03:33	Raynes	$(for [x [1 2 3]] (+ x 3))
03:33	sexpbot	DENIED!
03:33	Raynes	Same problem there, looks like.
03:35	Raynes	Macros are tricky little buggers.
03:38	Raynes	chunk-buffer and chunk-append weren't whitelisted, so maybe I can get for to work. :O
03:43	Raynes	Or not.
03:54	Raynes	Oh no.
03:55	Raynes	Well, we're screwed. doseq and for both use the '.' special form. It's what's causing the problem here.
03:56	Raynes	Maybe this will be incentive to fix the . problem.
04:01	Crowbar7	time to invent a new key on the keyboard
04:10	Licenser	Raynes: pong
04:10	Raynes	Licenser: We has us a problem. :p
04:11	Raynes	Looks like several useful macros can't be whitelisted unless '.' is whitelisted. :o
04:11	Licenser	Raynes: there are no prolems there are only challanges :P
04:11	Raynes	Indeed.
04:11	Raynes	condp uses throw as well.
04:12	Licenser	hrm
04:12	Licenser	heh
04:12	Raynes	It's not telling me why condp isn't working.
04:12	Raynes	Just ().
04:12	Raynes	But, it's obvious throw is probably part of that reason.
04:12	Raynes	doseq and for both do (.nth ..)
04:13	Raynes	Which is killing us.
04:13	Licenser	,(condp = 1 1 "a" 2 "b")
04:13	clojurebot	"a"
04:13	Raynes	,(throw (Exception. "Hai"))
04:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Hai
04:13	Licenser	hrm seems I've to make this . replacement soon :(
04:13	Raynes	The sooner the better. ;)
04:15	Raynes	Well, I guess throw isn't the only problem in condp. Still didn't whitelist it.
04:15	Raynes	Maybe it's because it mentions a Java class?
04:17	Raynes	Licenser: I just pushed with some new chunk functions that I missed.
04:17	Licenser	neat
04:17	Licenser	I've an 'simple' idea for . but I'll have to give that a look later got to go sadly
04:18	Raynes	Kay. Have fun. :)
04:18	Licenser	thanks see you later
04:24	defn	hello all
04:30	defn	ls
06:02	imran_sr	Hi. I was wondering if there is an equivalent of pmap for filter? I see some references online to a clojure.parallel namespace, but I don't see that anywhere in clojure.core or clojure-contrib
06:07	Raynes	chouser: Which one of you wrote the self-licking lollipop bit in Joy?
06:11	imran_sr	Raynes: (intejecting, clojure newbie here), is there an equivalent to pmap for filter? I can't find the clojure.parallel namespace which is mentioned in Volkman's tutorial
06:11	Raynes	imran_sr: I'm not sure. :(
06:12	imran_sr	ok
06:13	patrkris	imran_sr: http://clojure.org/other_libraries - perhaps this is what you're looking for
06:13	patrkris	at the top
06:13	patrkris	but the library is deprecated
06:13	imran_sr	patrkris: thanks, I'll check that out
06:19	patrkris	imran_sr: perhaps you can do something with the partition function, pmap and filter - but maybe that'll add too much overhead
06:21	imran_sr	patrkris: you mean roll my own pfilter?
06:21	patrkris	imran_sr: yeah, sort of
06:22	imran_sr	patrkris: (strip-out-nulls (pmap my-filter-func? sequence))
06:22	imran_sr	kind of like that?
06:23	patrkris	yeah, or you could use partition to divide your sequence into pieces, and each piece can be handed to your filter function, which will then filter out some elements
06:23	Chousuke	That's only useful if the filter function is really slow
06:24	patrkris	Chousuke: because the partitioning will be too slow in most cases?
06:24	dcnstrct	hi. The "lein deps" command has never worked for me with any project. I'm having difficult time I must be missing something obvious.. could anyone take a look and give me a pointer ? thanks; http://gist.github.com/362636
06:24	Chousuke	and the overhead of threading
06:24	patrkris	ah
06:24	Chousuke	and it's not like it can divide the sequence in pieces. it still needs to go over it linearly
06:25	patrkris	Chousuke: yeah, that's what I meant by it being too slow
06:25	Chousuke	so the operations on individual items much take enough time for parallelisation to make sense at all
06:25	imran_sr	btw, does using pmap have any consequences for laziness (in other words, does it somehow make it un-lazy)?
06:25	Chousuke	yes
06:25	Chousuke	it stays ahead by a few items I think
06:26	Chousuke	but it's not completely strict
06:26	imran_sr	Chousuke: but only by a few?
06:26	patrkris	Chousuke: do you happen to know whether partition works more efficiently if it detects a vector being partitioned?
06:26	Chousuke	patrkris: no.
06:26	Chousuke	as in, no, it doesn't. :)
06:26	patrkris	ok
06:27	Chousuke	There is an experimental parallel library for reducing/mapping over vectors efficiently
06:27	Chousuke	in the par branch of the git repo.
06:28	Chousuke	it works by mapping/reducing in parallel over the chunks that a vector is made of
06:28	bsteuber	dcnstruct: could you also post you project.clj?
06:28	Chousuke	But it depends on a JDK7 feature (which is available as a jar for JDK6). I guess that's why it's not merged to master yet.
06:29	patrkris	Chousuke: so what would be the ideal way to parallelize on large sequences in clojure as of now?
06:30	Chousuke	patrkris: pmap
06:30	imran_sr	Gentlemen, I have a (overly verbose, fairly dumb and brute force) solution for project euler 5, which I wanted to use a base to try out simple parallelization. Mind if I post a pastebin of it? I'm not sure how I would roll my own pfilter that would work for that
06:30	Chousuke	patrkris: sequences are inherently non-parallelisable
06:30	patrkris	Chousuke: i see what you mean
06:30	Chousuke	patrkris: they are, after all, sequences. :)
06:31	dcnstrct	http://gist.github.com/362640 <--- project.clj thanks for taking a look. the proejc tI'm trying to build is here: http://github.com/ugglan/cljaws
06:31	patrkris	Chousuke: you are right, of course
06:31	Chousuke	Hm
06:31	Chousuke	Looks like some tickets in contrib assembla should be closed ;P
06:32	imran_sr	http://clojure.pastebin.com/cJLEu3et
06:34	patrkris	Chousuke: is there any way of efficiently partitioning a vector? Maybe there is something fundamental I don't understand :)
06:34	Chousuke	patrkris: that's what the par library does
06:35	Chousuke	patrkris: internally, vectors are trees so they are very amenable to parallel processing
06:35	patrkris	Chousuke: ah ok
06:35	Chousuke	patrkris: but that fact is not exposed via a public API
06:35	Chousuke	yet.
06:36	patrkris	Chousuke: but I guess one could use arrays as an alternative?
06:36	bsteuber	dcnstruct: lein deps for cljaws works on my machine
06:37	bsteuber	dcnstrct, I mean
06:37	Chousuke	patrkris: well, arrays are sequential too, but since they're indexed I suppose they can be partitioned easily
06:37	bsteuber	so it seems like something might be wrong with your lein / maven install
06:38	bsteuber	do you happen to use windoze?
06:38	dcnstrct	ubuntu 9.10
06:38	dcnstrct	I installed lein with the install script
06:38	dcnstrct	about 3 weeks ago
06:38	dcnstrct	I can try removing it and doing that again I suppose
06:39	dcnstrct	is that what you're using ? the stable lein
06:39	bsteuber	yes, same ubuntu, same lein
06:39	bsteuber	weird
06:40	dcnstrct	well thnx for the confirmation that it's a weird problem and I didn't miss anything really obvious.. that's good enough for now :)
06:41	bsteuber	:)
06:49	Chousuke	hm
06:50	Chousuke	assembla could use some "needs approval from Rich" toggle for tickets
06:51	Chousuke	There seem to be quite many tickets that float in a limbo because they have neither been accepted nor rejected :/
08:41	mikem	~def to-byte-array
08:41	clojurebot	excusez-moi
08:59	defn	at clojure.core$seq__3538.invoke(core.clj:107) at clojure.core$map__4077$fn__4078.invoke(core.clj:1877)
08:59	defn	how do you read that?
08:59	defn	where is invoke called?
09:00	defn	is there a good resource to trace the roots of invoke?
09:02	Chousuke	it's the step function of a map
09:02	Chousuke	-a
09:03	Chousuke	clojure.core/seq calls an anonymous function defined within clojure.core/map and that throws an exception
09:06	Chousuke	invoke is the java method that actually contains the code of a clojure function, so you can just ignore it and think "function call"
09:08	defn	Chousuke: by step function are you referring to something like (map #(+ % 4 2) [1 2 3 4])
09:08	defn	Chousuke: where #(+ % 4 2) is the step function?
09:08	Chousuke	~def map
09:09	Chousuke	eh, that's out of sync again
09:10	defn	Chousuke: im reading it -- a little thrown by the lazy-seq and chunked stuff still
09:10	Chousuke	lazy-seq might create a function too.
09:10	defn	could you clarify step function? is that a piece of the lazy seq?
09:10	defn	Chousuke: ah
09:11	Chousuke	I mean just the function that gives the "rest" of the sequence
09:11	defn	Chousuke: but does not necessarily evaluate it?
09:12	Chousuke	well, of course not. except for its first element.
09:12	Chousuke	but the rest is only generated when the first element is needed so that's okay
09:12	defn	Chousuke: okay, i see, thanks
09:12	Chousuke	anyway, most likely something is wrong with the function you're passing to map
10:46	Licenser	defn: as a advice, if you encounter things like that name your anonymous functions
10:46	Licenser	use (fn function-name [] ...) instead of #(...)
11:03	Raynes	I'm strongly against naming anonymous functions. Goes against everything they believe in. ;)
11:03	Raynes	Licenser: What's your "simple idea" for '.'? :o
11:07	Ankou	hi, is there something like memfn for static methods?
11:08	Raynes	Ankou: You don't want to use memfn.
11:08	Raynes	Use an anonymous function instead.
11:08	Raynes	In both cases.
11:24	Ankou	why not memfn?
11:33	chouser	memfn predates the #() syntax -- since it's less general, it probably will be deprecated
11:35	Licenser	Raynes: beasically to alias a function to . in the namespace
11:36	Raynes	Licenser: Indeed. That would be dead simple.
11:36	Licenser	yea but I'm not sure if it works/how good it works :P
11:36	Raynes	Well, it's an idea. Ideas make me happy. :>
11:38	Licenser	^^
11:40	Licenser	hrm
11:40	Licenser	but not working
11:41	Raynes	:(
11:41	Licenser	forms take priority over functions
11:42	Licenser	so it actually is back to walking the entire form and replacing all . wiht dot or whatever
11:42	Licenser	and keep . itself blacklisted
11:42	Licenser	narf this will be horrible
11:42	Licenser	I'm not sure if this is going to work
11:42	Licenser	hmm I see a flaw here
11:43	Licenser	is there a macro that runs stuff while being evaluated?
11:45	Licenser	so defmacro is a way out
11:45	Licenser	,(defmacro x)
11:45	clojurebot	DENIED
11:45	Licenser	okay nice
11:51	Licenser	hrm
11:53	Raynes	Is there some sort of tool to count the number of lines of every file in a directory and it's sub directories recursively?
11:53	Raynes	:o
11:54	Licenser	Raynes: (for i in `find .`; do cat $i; end) \| wc -l
11:54	Licenser	or something along the line
11:55	StartsWithK	wc -l `find .`
11:55	ducki2p	find . -type f -exec wc -l {} \; \| awk '{total += $1} END{print total}'
11:55	Licenser	(for i in `find src`; do cat $i; done;) \| wc -l
11:55	StartsWithK	wc -l `find . \| grep .clj` for clj only
11:56	Raynes	:o
11:56	Raynes	Thanks, everybody. :p
11:56	Licenser	heh there are so many ways
11:56	ducki2p	plenty of choice; pick one :)
11:56	Licenser	also you could write a clojure program to do that for you
11:56	Raynes	My bashfoo is weak.
11:56	Licenser	I love for :P
11:56	ducki2p	there is also a special tool for this class of problems
11:56	ducki2p	'google' :)
11:57	StartsWithK	Raynes, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200415/
11:57	StartsWithK	to count clojure files, no empty lines and no comments
11:57	Raynes	Sexpbot is 938 lines. O.O
11:57	Raynes	StartsWithK: Cool. Thanks.
11:57	StartsWithK	.. so support for (comment ..)
11:58	StartsWithK	so=no
11:59	Raynes	884 lines. :D
11:59	Licenser	heh
11:59	Raynes	That makes it the largest project I've ever written in any language.
11:59	Licenser	I am urprised that find . -name *.clj does not go into sub directories o.O
12:00	Licenser	Raynes: heh
12:00	ducki2p	Licenser: put quotes around *.clj, so your shell doesnt expand that
12:00	Licenser	ah darn it I feel stuid now thanks ducki2p
12:01	Raynes	Of course, you have to subtract around 40-50 lines for the bf interpreter, which I didn't have the heart and courage to write myself.
12:01	Raynes	And around 20 for Rich's Norvig's spelling corrector. :>
12:01	Licenser	Raynes: it also counts newlines which are not LOC :P
12:02	ducki2p	another useful tool for this is sloccount; not sure if it natively recognizes Clojure
12:02	Raynes	ducki2p: It doesn't.
12:02	Licenser	clj-cat `find . -name "*.clj"` \| grep -v "^$" \| grep -v "^;" \| wc -l
12:02	Licenser	try this
12:02	ducki2p	darn
12:02	Licenser	coderay does that too, but also not for clojure
12:03	Licenser	I think that is a pretty good aproximation
12:03	Raynes	861
12:03	Licenser	clj-sandbox gets about 400 there
12:03	Licenser	Also I'm not sure that many LOC are a good thing :P
12:03	asimjalis	Hi
12:04	Licenser	hi asimjalis
12:04	Licenser	I personally would be glad of the sandbox code had less, well we could technically substract save-fn's since it is more a database then code
12:04	Licenser	nearly 90 LOC in there
12:06	AsimJalis	I was checking to see if I could post to the channel. Now that I can I have nothing else to say. At least for now.
12:06	Licenser	heh
12:13	AsimJalis	Are there any examples of generating Java or some other language using Clojure?
12:13	AsimJalis	I mean human-readable code rather than .class files.
12:13	AsimJalis	Or just code -- it doesn't have to be human-readable. But still actual code.
12:15	Licenser	AsimJalis: there is something that generates JS from clojure
12:15	Licenser	and it is pretty readable too
12:15	AsimJalis	Also I am not looking for a Clojure translator. I just want to define my own mini language inside Clojure and then have a translator that translates a sexp composed of this mini-language into the target language.
12:15	AsimJalis	Licenser: What is it called?
12:15	Licenser	I don't remember :(
12:16	AsimJalis	Well, at least now it's no longer an unknown unknown. So thanks for that :-)
12:16	Licenser	scryptica and scrypticus
12:17	Licenser	AsimJalis: now it's even a known to you :P
12:17	Licenser	scryptica is the up to date one it seems
12:18	Licenser	well I'm dead tired :( night people
12:18	Licenser	(doc macroexpand)
12:18	clojurebot	"([form]); Repeatedly calls macroexpand-1 on form until it no longer represents a macro form, then returns it. Note neither macroexpand-1 nor macroexpand expand macros in subforms."
12:19	AsimJalis	Neat. Thanks!
12:33	AsimJalis	Yeah, Scryptica looks more complete.
12:39	Raynes	AsimJalis: COBOL is for Cwitters!!!! :p
12:53	Drakeson	where are things like swank:pprint-eval defined? in slime or in swank-clojure?
12:57	chouser	I've got to shuffle network boxes around. Nobody say anything important... :-)
13:53	asimjalis	The recursive solution seems more flexible -- if I want to bite off different amounts each time.
13:54	kiras	When I have a line that starts with only one ; emacs indents it to column 40. This happens in elisp-mode and clojure-mode. I was told in #emacs that this is the convention in elisp and that those comments are typically used after other text and to use ;; otherwise. Is this the convention in clojure as well? In Programming Clojure, there are examples where ; is used and it's not indented in this way and at http://clojure.org/reader, it ju
13:54	kiras	Single-line comment, causes the reader to ignore everything from the semicolon to the end-of-line. with nothing about indentation.
13:55	kjellski	Hi there =)
13:56	kjellski	Someone familiar with the labrepl arround?
13:58	asimjalis	What is labrepl?
13:58	kjellski	There was an example with a "data/words" file. I wanted to get the frequencies of characters in all the words and I´m struggling with the summing part...
13:58	zakwilson	If I have maps of keywords to ints and I want to speed up (merge-with + foo bar), can I do that with type hints? Unchecked math?
13:58	kjellski	labrepl is a project from stuart halloway... it´s ment to explain clojure...
13:58	asimjalis	I asked the same question when it was mentioned on HN -- the README does not say what it is, just how to get it.
13:59	kjellski	Basically it´s a local website with some stuff to play with for leaning and exploring clojure...
13:59	asimjalis	Ok.
14:00	kiras	In vim, the comments are indented as in Programming Clojure...
14:01	asimjalis	kjellski: Ok. Thanks. Your summary should be snuck in somewhere at http://github.com/relevance/labrepl
14:02	kjellski	Excuse me, what does snuck mean?
14:02	chouser	sneak
14:02	chouser	sneaked
14:03	asimjalis	Oh, sorry. It should be inserted somewhere at http://github.com/relevance/labrepl
14:03	kjellski	Okay... I´ll try to find a good solution first ;)
14:03	dcnstrct	,(gen-and-load-class 'my.CoolException :extends Exception)
14:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: gen-and-load-class in this context
14:03	dcnstrct	hrmmm
14:04	chouser	gen-and-load-class is ancient -- been gone for ages
14:05	dcnstrct	ahhh damn ancient wikibook confused me http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Concepts#User_Defined_Exceptions
14:05	dcnstrct	what should I google then ?
14:05	asimjalis	is proxy the current way to do this?
14:05	chouser	proxy is okay except you can't really rely on the classname that it generates
14:06	chouser	gen-class is your best option, but it requires AOT compilation.
14:06	hoeck	kiras: when in doubt, consider looking at core.clj :)
14:06	kiras	hoeck: ah... i should have thought of that. ty
14:07	chouser	are you sure you need your own named exception class? I'd recommend looking at clojure.contrib.condition
14:08	hoeck	kiras: in core, I found both ; and ;; for whole-line comments
14:08	kiras	so it's being indented incorrectly in emacs?
14:09	The-Kenny	kiras: ;; is the correct comment for a whole-line comment in my and emacs' opinion
14:09	The-Kenny	As far as I remember, ; gets indented wrong by emacs
14:09	The-Kenny	(right-aligned)
14:09	dcnstrct	hrmmm now that I think about it there's no reason why I need singly-typed errors. thnx
14:10	kiras	The-Kenny: that's my experience too, but I'm wondering if emacs is right or wrong
14:10	The-Kenny	I think emacs is right. I read about this loose-convention somewhere on cliki.net
14:10	kiras	The-Kenny: since i've seen clojure ; comments formatted the other way too
14:11	kiras	The-Kenny: I was told it was correct for elisp, just would like to be sure that it's also correct for clojure
14:12	hoeck	kiras: I guess those are "standard" lisp comment conventions
14:12	The-Kenny	hoeck: I think so too. Saw it on cliki.net somewhere
14:12	asimjalis	I was reading the comments about jobs at the clojure site in a recent conversation here http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-12-14.html . . .
14:12	hoeck	kiras: eg, see http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps p. 41
14:12	kiras	as hoeck pointed out, in core.clj ; is not indented to column 40
14:12	The-Kenny	It's also described here: http://www.labri.fr/perso/strandh/Teaching/Langages-Enchasses/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/indentation.html
14:12	kiras	for example:
14:12	kiras	;during bootstrap we don't have destructuring let, loop or fn, will redefine later
14:12	kiras	(def
14:12	kiras	#^{:macro true}
14:12	kiras	let (fn* let [& decl] (cons 'let* decl)))
14:13	asimjalis	The clojure jobs I see here list it as something interesting to have with no expectation that it will be used at the job . . .
14:13	asimjalis	For example, "Interest/experience in interesting languages (Lisp, Scheme, Erlang, Scala, Smalltalk, Haskell, Forth, Clojure)"
14:13	asimjalis	This is from http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sof/1667187845.html
14:14	kiras	I was just wondering if the same conventions held in clojure... it seems kind of strange that it wouldn't be followed in core.clj of all places?
14:14	asimjalis	Are there companies using Clojure in production?
14:14	asimjalis	How does one find them?
14:16	dcnstrct	if you're good @ clojure and looking for a clojure job in the bay area check out this company
14:16	dcnstrct	http://www.runa.com/company/careers/
14:16	dcnstrct	they're running clojure in production
14:17	dcnstrct	they're the guys who made this http://github.com/amitrathore/swarmiji
14:18	dcnstrct	supposidly everything there is in clojure except one rails app.. they use swarmiji in front of hbase to power all their stuff
14:20	dcnstrct	if you get the job paypal me 10% of your first 3 months salary for the recuritment fee
14:20	dcnstrct	;)
14:23	hoeck	asimjalis: http://www.infoq.com/articles/deadline-clojure-appengine
14:23	asimjalis	Ok.
14:23	asimjalis	Heh.
14:23	asimjalis	How about 20% -- you're selling yourself short.
14:24	dcnstrct	deal
14:27	kjellski	asimjalis: This is my solution... could you have a look wethere there is a better way to do it? http://paste.lisp.org/display/97649
14:30	Blackfoot	is there a way to break out of loops? sometime the like (doseq [foo bar-seq] (if foo (println ok) (break))
14:30	Chousuke	throw an exception
14:31	dcnstrct	clojure.contrib.condition is your friend
14:31	Chousuke	of course, the better way is to filter your sequence so that it is not longer than you need it to be.
14:31	Chousuke	take-while is helpful
14:35	Blackfoot	ok, reading through those, thanks. It is not an exception in the logical sense, but it may work
14:35	lopex	(doseq [x '(1 2 3 4 5) :while (< x 3)] (println x))
14:38	Blackfoot	lopex: perfect! thank you
15:01	Hali_303	what do you use for debugging? nothing I've tried seems to be able to do single stepping or at least tracing
15:03	Hali_303	eg. cc.trace/dotrace is pretty limited (can only instrument functions which are in the form given, but not those which are called within deeper levels)
15:09	opqdonut	yeah
15:09	opqdonut	so I use prns and staring at code
15:13	Chousuke	Java debuggers should work on Clojure.
15:25	zkim	If you're adventurous there's hugo duncan's break stuff: http://hugoduncan.org/post/2010/swank_clojure_gets_a_break_with_the_local_environment.xhtml havn't tried it myself though
15:35	dcnstrct	if a certain function requires Ahead Of Time compilation what does that mean exactly ?
15:35	dcnstrct	does it mean I can't start a normal clojure repl and use it ?
15:36	StartsWithK	dcnstrct, yes, you will need to compile the namespace where that function is declared
15:36	StartsWithK	and then add compiled version to classpath
15:37	dcnstrct	argg
15:37	dcnstrct	does anyone know of a way to work with user definied exceptions in clojure that does not require AOT compilation ?
15:37	asimjalis	What's the specific problem you are dealing with?
15:37	StartsWithK	but fns don't need aot, is there a gen-class in there?
15:37	dcnstrct	I have a function that needs to be able to throw a couple different kinds of exceptions as well as return a value
15:38	dcnstrct	I have a gen-class yeah
15:38	asimjalis	Could you just throw Runtime exceptions? Or subclasses of some well-known exceptions?
15:39	dcnstrct	well my original approach was to subclass java.lang.Exception: (gen-and-load-class 'user.UserException :extends Exception)
15:39	dcnstrct	but then I found out gen-and-load-class is gone
15:39	dcnstrct	I could throw Runtime exceptions
15:40	dcnstrct	thats a good idea
15:40	StartsWithK	define all your exceltions in one package, but as java files, and stick http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200563/ something like this in your build
15:40	StartsWithK	and your done
15:41	dcnstrct	oh right.. just use java to define the exceptions.. good idea too
15:41	dcnstrct	thnx people
15:41	asimjalis	Or you could use proxy and create subclasses of Exception or some special Java Exception that is already defined.
15:45	sattvik	dcnstrct: If you are using Clojure 1.1, proxy may be your best bet, although it is a bit limited. In one project I used both proxy and gen-class within the same namespace so that I could use proxy during development and gen-class for deployment. With Clojure 1.2, you get deftype which is fairly flexible given many of the advantages of proxy and gen-class all in one.
15:47	StartsWithK	but deftype can't extend Exception
15:47	StartsWithK	or it can now?
15:49	sattvik	StartsWithK: Hmm.. not sure. I can give it a try.
15:50	StartsWithK	sattvik, i think it can only extend interfaces from java side
15:55	sattvik	StartsWithK: I think you are right.
16:11	TakeV	Hmm, so with Penumbra, is there a trick to making it be an executable jar? Using the standalone, but it still doesn't work.
16:13	StartsWithK	TakeV, not sure about Penumbra, but JLine keeps its native libs inside the jar and unpacks them to temp dir before executing rest of its code
16:13	StartsWithK	other options is something like webstart (supports jogl)
16:14	TakeV	StartsWithK: It seems to not be able to find the main class. I didn't know that clojure had main classes. 0_o
16:14	Hali_303	zkim: does that work with swank-clojure in ELPA?
16:14	StartsWithK	TakeV, everything on java must have entry point
16:15	StartsWithK	i guess, it is something you will define for your app and not something penumbra provides for you
16:15	TakeV	StartsWithK: How do I do that?
16:16	zkim	Hali_303: Not sure, I wouldn't think so unless the ELPA package is running off of swank-clojure's HEAD
16:16	zkim	It's on my list of things to look at though, I was really excited to see that post come across my reader
16:17	StartsWithK	TakeV, define one of your namespaces as (ns my.entrypoint (:gen-class :main true)) and create function named "-main" that takes no arguments in that namespace
16:17	Hali_303	zkim: I see. so println is the best thing I can have now, right?
16:17	StartsWithK	then compile that namespace with clojure.compile
16:17	TakeV	Huh, thanks.
16:17	zkim	Hali_303: AFAIK, yes. JSwat or YourKit might help also
16:18	StartsWithK	other options are, you use clojure.main -e "(require 'my.entrypoint) (-main)"
16:18	Hali_303	zkim: I tried JSwat without any luck a few months ago
16:18	StartsWithK	or custom java launcher
16:19	zkim	Hali_303: yeah, when I was starting out with clojure I was really aware of the lack of debugging tools, and as I've done more and more it hasn't been a big problem
16:19	asimjalis	Is there an easy way to deploy Clojure desktop apps? I created an app and I have it compiled into an uberjar, but my users might not have Java installed.
16:19	TakeV	Lein keeps throwing all kinds of errors now. Hmm...
16:19	zkim	Hali_303: although I'd qualify that with the fact that I havn't done anything really big with the language
16:19	dcnstrct	asimjalis, yes... use jaunch4j
16:20	dcnstrct	err launch4j
16:20	StartsWithK	TakeV, can you paste what it is?
16:20	StartsWithK	lisppaste8, help
16:20	zkim	Hali_303: off topic, but 303 as in Denver?
16:20	StartsWithK	http://paste.pocoo.org/
16:20	TakeV	Exception in thread "main" Java returned: 1 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:21	asimjalis	dcnstrct: Thanks! For a second I thought jaunch4j was the Clojure version of launch4j. I'm looking at it right now.
16:21	TakeV	The rest of the error is quite long.
16:21	StartsWithK	use the paste.pocoo.org
16:22	Hali_303	zkim: no, it is just random string, so my name does not conflict with others
16:22	Hali_303	:D
16:22	TakeV	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200581/
16:22	zkim	Hali_303: ah, got it :)
16:23	asimjalis	I am almost scared of asking questions because they all get answered -- do I really want to know in some cases?
16:23	zkim	Hali_303: but yeah, I mostly use println and c.c.pprint
16:23	Hali_303	zkim: hm I've not yet used pprint, but looks nice, thanks
16:23	zkim	Hali_303: np
16:25	TakeV	StartsWithK: Would you like me to post my code and project.clj?
16:26	StartsWithK	TakeV, sure, maybe some can spot the error
16:27	TakeV	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200583/ --- Project.clj is on the top, the source file is on the bottom.
16:28	StartsWithK	what did you use as argument for -e option
16:29	StartsWithK	it looks like eval throws the error
16:29	TakeV	-e option?
16:29	StartsWithK	uf, and, just to be safe, use two segment namespace names
16:29	StartsWithK	wings.foo
16:30	TakeV	Ah.
16:31	TakeV	Not sure what the -e option is. Trying to compile it with "lein compile", after running "lein deps" and "lein native-deps".
16:31	StartsWithK	one of the problems i see
16:31	StartsWithK	is app/start
16:31	StartsWithK	its outside any function
16:31	StartsWithK	place that inside your new -main
16:31	StartsWithK	as lein compiles the namespace, clojure will execute your code
16:34	TakeV	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200586/ -- Result of running "java -jar wings-standalone.jar -Djava.library.path=native/linux/x86".
16:37	kzar	What's wrong with this? (for [[x y] (range 10)] [x y]) I'm trying to grab values out of the range in pairs
16:37	opqdonut	, (partition 2 (range 10))
16:37	clojurebot	((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (8 9))
16:38	opqdonut	that tries to do a destructuring bind
16:38	StartsWithK	TakeV, when you type jar -tf wings-standalone.jar can you see "wings/core.class" file inside your jar?
16:38	opqdonut	, (let [thing [[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]]] (for [[x y] thing] y))
16:38	clojurebot	(2 4 6)
16:39	opqdonut	that's how destructuring works
16:40	TakeV	StartsWithK: No.
16:40	StartsWithK	TakeV, hmm.. did you update :main in your project.clj to wings.core?
16:41	TakeV	Yes. Hmm... let me clean and recompile.
16:42	TakeV	Huh, still not appearing...
16:42	technomancy	dcnstrct: do you know about clojure.contrib.condition?
16:43	technomancy	it's much nicer than defining your own Exception subclasses
16:43	StartsWithK	TakeV, same error? and no .class file in jar?
16:43	TakeV	Yes, to both.
16:43	StartsWithK	is there some kind od buld/classes dir in your project
16:43	StartsWithK	can you see .class file in there
16:43	TakeV	Yes, there is a dir. But there are no files in there. 0_o
16:45	StartsWithK	TakeV, hmm
16:45	kzar	opqdonut: But what if the 'thing' isn't a vector of vectors, it's just a vector? (let [thing [1 2 3 4 5 6]] (for [[x y] thing] y))
16:45	opqdonut	kzar: then you get an error :)
16:45	kzar	heh
16:45	opqdonut	, (let [thing [1 2]] (for [[x y] thing] y))
16:45	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
16:46	opqdonut	because 1 is not a sequence
16:46	StartsWithK	TakeV, what is compile step saying?
16:46	StartsWithK	do you see something like compiling wings.core
16:46	TakeV	The only thing it prints is "All :namespaces already compiled."
16:47	kzar	opqdonut: ah ok I see, but what if I want to take items from the front of a vector each time?
16:47	opqdonut	well one answer is partition
16:47	StartsWithK	TakeV, maybe you then need to add :namespaces [wings.core] to your project
16:48	kzar	opqdonut: Ah sweet I got it working thanks
16:48	StartsWithK	is there a lein user in the house? :)
16:49	StartsWithK	it looks compile will search for :namespaces and then skip to some kind of namespace guessing
16:50	StartsWithK	by matching file names
16:50	StartsWithK	is your file in src/wings/core.clj
16:50	TakeV	No.
16:50	Fossi	yes
16:51	StartsWithK	TakeV, place the file in src/wings/core.clj
16:51	StartsWithK	clean and recompile ad you did before
16:52	asimjalis	opqdonut: "for" expects thing to be a sequence of pairs. Try this instead:
16:53	asimjalis	,(let [things [[1 2] [3 4]]] (for [[x y] things] y))
16:53	clojurebot	(2 4)
16:53	TakeV	Still just printing "all :namespaces already compiled". Also added :namespaces [wings.core] to the project.
16:53	StartsWithK	so you have wings/project.clj wings/src/wings/core.clj
16:53	StartsWithK	in your project
16:54	TakeV	Ah, didn't rename it to core. One sec.
16:55	opqdonut	asimjalis: i was demonstrating that fact to kzar :)
16:55	LauJensen	Do we have some clojure wrapper for copying a file ?
16:55	clojurebot	clojurebot has a lot of features
16:55	asimjalis	ok
16:55	TakeV	Oh good, now it's throwing errors again. >_>
16:55	StartsWithK	TakeV, aha add :namespaces :all
16:56	StartsWithK	that will search for namespaces by filename matching in your src dir
16:56	technomancy	LauJensen: give two File objects to the copy method in duck-streams
16:56	technomancy	aka c.c.io
16:57	LauJensen	thanks phil
16:57	technomancy	good old duck-streams =)
16:59	TakeV	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200598/
17:00	StartsWithK	TakeV, add another ) at the end of your -main
17:00	TakeV	-_-
17:01	StartsWithK	:)
17:01	asimjalis	opqdonut: How could this be done using destructuring recursively in a loop for example instead of using partition?
17:01	opqdonut	sure
17:01	StartsWithK	TakeV, also, its ok to place app/start inside the -main
17:01	opqdonut	there should be a higher-level construct for this
17:02	opqdonut	something like haskell's tails or common lisp's loop :on or mapcdr
17:03	TakeV	Still getting the same error. This is starting to become irritating. :P
17:04	StartsWithK	same error about missing paren?
17:04	TakeV	The EOF thing.
17:04	StartsWithK	TakeV, you are missing one ) at the end of ns too
17:04	TakeV	Oh. >_>
17:04	StartsWithK	:)
17:06	TakeV	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200599/
17:07	StartsWithK	there is no jlwgl on classpat while you are compiling
17:07	StartsWithK	try :native-dependencies [[lwjgl "2.2.2"]] adding lwjgl dep to :dependencies too
17:08	TakeV	In project?
17:08	StartsWithK	yes
17:08	StartsWithK	add [lwjgl "2.2.2."] after penubra
17:19	hamza	,(proxy [javax.swing.TransferHandler] [] (canImport [s] (println "s")) (canImport [c f] (println "c f")))
17:19	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
17:19	hamza	is it possible to somehow define two canImport calls?
17:20	Crowb4r	Speaking of proxy, is there a good example of using proxy around?
17:43	chouser	hamza: use (proxy [...] [] (canImport ([s] ...) ([c f] ...)))
17:43	StartsWithK	TakeV, any progress?
17:53	hamza	chouser: thanks that worked..
17:53	TakeV	StartsWithK: Not really. :\
17:54	StartsWithK	whats the current error?
17:55	TakeV	StartsWithK: Same as last time. Got some lunch and just got back. :P
17:55	StartsWithK	hehe
17:56	StartsWithK	when you type jar -t wings-standalone.jar
17:57	StartsWithK	do you see opengl jars inside?
17:58	TakeV	I can't build the jar, as it will not compile.
18:02	StartsWithK	ok, are the opengl libs in your lib/ directory?
18:03	TakeV	Er, it started randomly being able to compile.
18:03	StartsWithK	that is a good sign :)
18:05	danlarkin	I'm drawing a blank, what's the best way to subsection an array
18:05	danlarkin	like subs does to strings
18:05	TakeV	Ok, yeah, the lwjgl and all required libs are in lib.
18:05	TakeV	danlarkin: Partition?
18:05	StartsWithK	,(doc subvec)
18:05	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
18:06	StartsWithK	oh, array, System/arraycopy
18:06	danlarkin	ja but an array, not a seq or a vec
18:06	danlarkin	oh there we go
18:07	danlarkin	thanks StartsWithK
18:10	carkh
18:12	TakeV	Caused by: java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no lwjgl in java.library.path (core.clj:1)
18:12	TakeV	Er...
18:12	TakeV	Caused by: java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no lwjgl in java.library.path (core.clj:1)
18:12	TakeV	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
18:12	StartsWithK	is your lib path ok?
18:12	TakeV	I don't know. >_>
18:12	StartsWithK	what your lib path?
18:13	TakeV	wings/lib?
18:14	StartsWithK	can you paste "ls -R" from the root of your project
18:15	StartsWithK	also, can you try with absolute path
18:16	TakeV	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/200632/
18:18	StartsWithK	TakeV, your java.library.path shoubl be native/<your-os-arch>/
18:20	TakeV	StartsWithK: That is what I am passing to java -jar wings-standalone.jar
18:20	StartsWithK	java -Djava.library.path=native/linux/x86_64 wing-standalone.jar
18:20	StartsWithK	?
18:21	StartsWithK	s*
18:21	StartsWithK	with the -D prefix and =
18:21	TakeV	Yeah, only x86. 32-bit for the fail. >_>
18:22	TakeV	Ah, but not in that order.
18:22	TakeV	Ok, that works!
18:22	StartsWithK	:)
18:23	TakeV	Thank you so very much. :)
18:23	StartsWithK	np
18:32	StartsWithK	what is the name of text indexing project for clojure?
18:32	StartsWithK	i remeber there was one
18:32	technomancy	lucene works fine
18:33	StartsWithK	caponia :)
18:35	StartsWithK	lucene is ~1mb, thats not so bad
18:36	TakeV	Clojure is garbage collected, right? What exactly gets collected, since there are no real variables.
18:37	carkh	there are values anyways, and all the java stuff, and persostent data structures
18:38	hiredman	TakeV: gc doesn't have anything to do with variables
18:38	hiredman	variables aren't gc, things that are referenced by variables are gc'ed
18:39	hiredman	if I create a big map of stuff, but don't keep a reference to it, the map is garbage since I can never use it
18:41	asimjalis	You can prod the garbage collector with (System/gc) if you think it's not being aggressive enough.
18:41	rlb	TakeV: ...or if you create a big sequence, reduce it, etc. The gc will collect anything that's no longer reachable, and computations allocate things with limited lifespans all the time.
18:41	asimjalis	,(System/gc)
18:41	clojurebot	nil
18:41	hiredman	asimjalis: :(
18:41	hiredman	never do that
18:41	asimjalis	Why?
18:41	clojurebot	why not?
18:42	asimjalis	hiredman: Why not?
18:44	hiredman	it negates the purpose of having a gc
18:44	hiredman	better to tune heap params
18:45	hiredman	http://java-monitor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188
18:45	hamza	AFAIK you can't force java gc to run it will only hint it.
18:45	hiredman	etc
18:54	TakeV	rlb: That makes sense.
18:56	asimjalis	I've found it useful in testing from the REPL to get some idea about the memory footprint of processes.
19:05	asimjalis	I am writing a Clojure library that lets me write Java as sexps and to use defmacro. Any good starting points?
19:06	asimjalis	Here is some code in Common Lisp I am using as a starting point: http://www.keyongtech.com/4689544-how-to-do-java-in#14
19:06	hiredman	why bother?
19:07	hiredman	I would either just write clojure, or write clojure to generate jvm bytecode via one of the bytecode engineering libraries
19:07	asimjalis	I need to deliver Java for work.
19:07	hiredman	:(
19:08	asimjalis	I know where you are coming from. I might be taking an overly circuitous solution to this problem.
19:08	asimjalis	I could switch jobs. So that's another option.
19:08	carkh	what if someone in your team makes a change to the produced java code ?
19:09	asimjalis	I'll have to quickly backport it.
19:10	carkh	also you'll be debugging java code and correcting lisp code ... this will be annoying
19:10	asimjalis	Or maybe write a Java to Jaja translator that goes backwards (where Jaja is a tentative name for this Clojure-esque Java).
19:10	carkh	error at line 45 which is line 2 of your lisp code
19:11	hiredman	deliver java code that drives a "library" that you provide as a jar
19:11	hiredman	you can call clojure's eval from java :)
19:12	asimjalis	So I own a whole module at work. No one else modifies it very much. Everyone lives in their own modules. So this kind of thing does not happen very much. Once in a while some small change bubbles across the whole system.
19:13	asimjalis	The problem is that this is a shipping product -- there is not much interest in management to add Clojure to the code-base.
19:13	hiredman	"I'd like to start replacing some of my java with a dsl"
19:13	hiredman	you've asked?
19:13	asimjalis	Maybe I just suck at selling. Anyway, I made a case and it was politely declined.
19:13	asimjalis	Yes. I actually brought it up with my manager.
19:14	hiredman	:/
19:14	carkh	if yuou leave tha company they need to find someone that will be able to take ownership on your code
19:14	asimjalis	He did say though that if there was a compelling feature that could be done with Clojure that couldn't be done with Java or would be nearly impossible with Java then I'd have a stronger case.
19:15	asimjalis	Yeah. So I see his point. They don't want to turn the code base into a Tower of Babel.
19:15	carkh	well ...closures is one
19:15	carkh	and persistent data structures
19:15	asimjalis	What's a customer-facing feature that closures could enable?
19:15	carkh	less bugs =P
19:15	hiredman	"witing java makes work so horrible that I do additional unpaid work creating frameworks to generate java code from nicer languages"
19:16	hiredman	writing
19:16	asimjalis	This captures my feelings.
19:16	carkh	what language could provide a customer-facing feature that unique to it ?
19:17	hiredman	anyway, java isn't that bad if you just ignore the type system
19:17	hiredman	do everything via runnables and callables
19:17	asimjalis	He gave me the example of ActionScript which enabled some new flashy UI features that were not possible with JSPs and Javascript.
19:17	hiredman	lots of unsafe casts everwhere
19:18	asimjalis	carkh: He gave me the example of ActionScript which enabled some new flashy UI features that were not possible with JSPs and Javascript.
19:18	carkh	it's not the language but the platform
19:18	asimjalis	True.
19:18	carkh	but yes i see the point
19:20	asimjalis	carkh: So theoretically I don't see how Clojure could provide a concrete user-level feature that Java could not provide. Although I suspect that many features will just be very complicated and hard to write in Java and might be easier in Clojure.
19:20	asimjalis	carkh: So there is a stereotype that Lispy languages are better for AI. Is this really true? Theoretically you can make decision trees and prune them in any language.
19:20	hiredman	well, you'll end up reimplementing clojure
19:21	asimjalis	We are using a C library called SVM-Light for Machine Learning.
19:21	carkh	asimjalis: lisps where used for ai because of garbage collection and list processing ....every other language has that now
19:22	carkh	maybe macros played a role too i don't know
19:23	asimjalis	carkh: Yes, it seems like you can do it in Java if you wanted to. Although I still thing the fluidity of design that Clojure gives you will make it easier to converge to a good design and solution. So the development speed and product quality and flexibility might be higher
19:23	hiredman	clojurebot: the evolution of lisp?
19:23	clojurebot	my lisp machine is the jvm
19:23	hiredman	clojurebot: you suck
19:23	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
19:23	hamza	asimjalis: since in lisp code is data, it is really trivial for lisp programs to read and modify them selfs.
19:24	hiredman	I have a (pdf)copy of some memo from MIT where someone said "I ask for examples of real world uses of lisp, not ai since we all know ai isn't real, but got no responses, so obviously lisp has no real world applications"
19:25	carkh	symbols and keywords word decisive for ai too i think
19:25	carkh	word->were
19:25	asimjalis	But things like development-speed and flexibility are so fuzzy.
19:26	carkh	symbols and keyword enable the data is code counterpart to code is data
19:26	asimjalis	carkh: The data drives the code?
19:26	carkh	right
19:26	carkh	like hum ...in those html libraries for instance
19:27	asimjalis	hum? Is that a library?
19:27	carkh	you know type this : [:h1 "hello world"] and it gets transofrmed to html
19:27	asimjalis	Right.
19:27	carkh	that's a simplistic example i guess
19:28	asimjalis	Right. I know what you mean about [:html ...]. ("Hum" was just a sound.)
19:28	carkh	ah ...hehe sorry
19:29	asimjalis	The way libraries are being named right now every typo could potentially be a library or project name. Can't be too careful.
19:30	kiras	how do you know about project hum?
19:31	carkh	who doesn't ?
19:32	kiras	i see...
19:33	carkh	http://www.dcs.qmul.ac.uk/research/imc/hum/
19:33	carkh	=)
19:34	kiras	lol
19:35	asimjalis	Heh.
19:36	kiras	so is leiningen pretty much the standard build tool for clojure projects at this point?
19:36	The-Kenny	kiras: I think so
19:37	hiredman	there is a very vocal maven faction
19:38	carkh	so i'm the only one using ant i guess =/
19:38	glogic	carkh: i use ant
19:38	glogic	carkh: heh
19:38	kiras	heh
19:38	kiras	ok
19:38	kiras	good to know
19:38	glogic	kiras: ya file that away right
19:38	glogic	kiras: lol
19:38	kiras	lol
19:43	glogic	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheney's_algorithm
19:43	glogic	cheney was a crazy kind of guy
19:44	glogic	my head hurts
19:45	asimjalis	I stopped using leiningen because it wouldn't let me easily include a local jar file that was not published on git -- for example see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2404426/leiningen-how-to-add-dependencies-for-local-jars
19:45	asimjalis	I built using a straight bash script -- yeah it's very old-fashioned
19:47	tomoj	you can just install a jar into your local maven repo
19:47	tomoj	of course, no one else will be able to build the project, then, unless they also install these jars
20:05	asimjalis	Is clojure being used for machine learning or document classification by anyone?
20:05	asimjalis	Any references would be great.
20:06	hiredman	the big one would be flightcaster
20:06	hiredman	~google flightcaster
20:06	clojurebot	First, out of 2160 results is:
20:06	clojurebot	FlightCaster
20:06	clojurebot	http://flightcaster.com/
20:08	tomoj	I heard some of their ml stuff was getting into incanter
20:28	tomoj	the algorithm I'm implementing uses a global incrementing counter. I was thinking of just using gensym, as all that really matters is that the values are unique, but they need to be unique across jvm restarts
20:28	tomoj	ideas?
20:29	tomoj	fairly easy to do the same old incrementing counter with an atom, but you run into trouble across jvm restarts
20:29	carkh	store it in a file =P
20:29	hiredman	uuid
20:30	hiredman	gensyms are really not that unique
20:30	carkh	tho how slow is it to make an uuid ?
20:31	hiredman	uh, why would it be slow?
20:31	hiredman	uuidgen 0.00s user 0.00s system 67% cpu 0.006 total
20:31	carkh	i don't know never really looked intop it , surely needs a system call to get time, and maybe another to get mac address ?
20:31	tomoj	reading java.util.UUID
20:33	asimjalis	The mac address requires reading the network card.
20:33	asimjalis	So it is expensive.
20:34	asimjalis	But you could get the UUID once -- and then append your counter to it. So this way it's a one-time cost for the UUID call.
20:34	hiredman	why do you think a uuid includes a mac address?
20:34	tomoj	I can make 10000 UUIDs in 274ms
20:34	tomoj	plenty quick enough for me
20:35	carkh	Version 1 (MAC address)
20:35	asimjalis	There are 4 classes of UUIDs. If you use the MAC address you guarantee uniqueness. Version 1 uses the MAC address. The others don't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universally_Unique_Identifier
20:35	asimjalis	Wait 5, not 4.
20:36	hiredman	the javadocs don't mention mac addresses at all
20:36	carkh	looks like version 4 would be the fastest ?
20:36	asimjalis	This is what Windows does.
20:36	carkh	java's uuid aren't complete
20:36	hiredman	so?
20:36	asimjalis	But it might cache the MAC address so multiple UUIDs might not be that expensive.
20:36	asimjalis	I don't know how it's implemented.
20:36	tomoj	I'm using type 4 (pseudorandom), and I don't care :)
20:37	carkh	anyways, quick enough for tomoj =P
20:37	hiredman	I'm saying who cares about mac addresses if don't need to?
20:37	carkh	well i just discovered that not every uuid uses the mac address =P
20:38	carkh	that's why i said _maybe_
20:38	carkh	looks like not every uuid uses time either =P
20:38	asimjalis	Although the Wiki says that Java uses Versions 3 or 4: ``Java: The J2SE 5.0 release of Java provides a class that will produce 128-bit UUIDs, although it only implements version 3 and 4 generation methods, not the original method (due to lack of means to access MAC addresses using pure Java).''
20:39	carkh	anyways 10k uuids in 250ms is very slow
20:40	carkh	compared to incrementing an integer
20:40	tomoj	sure
20:40	carkh	so it all depends on the use case i guess
20:40	hiredman	persisting + incrementing an integer
20:40	tomoj	but it will allow me to focus on the important stuff for now
21:44	dcnstrct	I finally figured out the bizarre problem I had with lein that was making it never work..
21:44	dcnstrct	it boils down to this: don't do sudo lein self-install
21:44	dcnstrct	unless you intend on using lein as root
21:44	dcnstrct	I don't know why I would have done that anyways... so insecure.. I guess I wasn't thinking
21:45	dcnstrct	works great now though :)
21:54	tomoj	dcnstrct: what's wrong with lein self-install?
22:01	_ato	tomoj: he ran it with sudo, so presumably it either installed into /root or messed up the permissions on ~/.m2
22:02	tomoj	oh, I missed the sudo
22:02	tomoj	of course
22:02	tomoj	I've been wondering how you might set up a system-wide lein
22:02	Licenser	greetings
22:03	Licenser	hey _ato I'd wanted to ask for another clojars featre :P
22:03	Licenser	*feature
22:03	tomoj	lein always uses ~/.m2 ?
22:04	_ato	if you set M2_HOME it'll probably use somewhere else
22:04	_ato	Licenser: ok
22:04	_ato	Licenser: what's the feature?
22:04	Licenser	_ato: very simple thing, a hash of the current feed.clj.gz so people don't download it twice
22:04	Licenser	it's more to save clojars bandwith then for compfort :P
22:05	_ato	ah, good idea, I'm surprised that didn't occur to me
22:05	_ato	just a sec
22:05	Licenser	well must not be a hash can be anything that identifies if the feed.clj changed
22:07	Licenser	_ato: it didn't occured to you so it can be a team effort :P
22:08	_ato	http://clojars.org/repo/feed.clj.gz.md5 http://clojars.org/repo/feed.clj.gz.sha1
22:08	tomoj	etag?
22:08	Licenser	_ato: thank you :)
22:13	defn	http://floating-point-gui.de/
22:13	Licenser	_ato: with this I can make add and search automatically check for new versions and get them :)
22:14	Licenser	greetings defn :)
22:14	defn	hello sir!
22:14	defn	,(+ 0.2 0.1)
22:14	clojurebot	0.30000000000000004
22:14	defn	hehe, this is interesting...
22:15	Licenser	that is why floats are evil!
22:15	Licenser	defn: are you using lein search already? :P I made it specially for you!
22:15	_ato	tomoj: yeah good point, I should make it only touch the file when it actually differs, then the etag and last modified will be correct as well
22:15	chouser	,(+ 2/10 1/10)
22:15	clojurebot	3/10
22:16	defn	chouser: oh of course! i didn't consider clojure's rationals.
22:16	defn	chouser: either way i was interested as I didn't know about this problem tbqh
22:16	defn	chouser: the latest edit of JoC looks great btw
22:16	clojurebot	paredit commands is http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html
22:17	defn	Licenser: where do i go to get lein search?
22:17	defn	is it in the main repo?
22:17	Licenser	defn: add [lein-search "0.2.0"] to your dev deps :)
22:17	defn	ooo!
22:17	Licenser	:)
22:17	chouser	defn: great, thanks. should be a substantial treatment of floating point numbers in there.
22:18	Licenser	JoC
22:18	defn	chouser: excellent. also i love your dr. seuss quote in there -- the one about beetle battle muddle...something like that
22:18	Licenser	?
22:19	defn	Licenser: Joy of Clojure -- chouse and fogus' book
22:19	Licenser	oh
22:19	Licenser	is it out?
22:19	defn	the first 5 chapters are so far
22:19	chouser	defn: yeah, fogus found that quote -- fit perfectly.
22:20	Licenser	it is open source or is there like a pre purchase preview?
22:21	defn	pre purchase preview
22:21	Licenser	can someone give me a link? I am curiose :P
22:21	defn	of course -- one second
22:22	defn	http://www.manning.com/fogus/
22:22	chouser	Licenser: http://joyofclojure.com/
22:22	Licenser	I mean of the purchase page not the preview of caus
22:22	Licenser	thanks mates
22:23	defn	chouser: im really excited for the types,protocols, and reify section, and the concurrency /mutation idioms section
22:23	defn	the descriptions of "when to use..." make me most excited i think
22:24	Licenser	neat
22:24	chouser	defn: I'm working on the types,protocols, and reify right now. The hard part, as always, is coming up with good examples.
22:25	Licenser	Neat
22:26	defn	chouser: i hope i dont presume too much but i am somewhat curious about using examples from JoC in my walton project. Obviously, as you just said, finding good examples is incredibly time consuming. Are there restrictions that preclude my use of the examples in JoC or Stuart's book, for instance? Is it a matter of EPL? The publisher?
22:34	asimjalis	I am reading the first chapter (the free preview). Looks pretty interesting. Looking forward to it.
22:34	asimjalis	What is the Walton project?
22:35	Licenser	walton is an awsome project to let you find example code
22:35	defn	http://github.com/defn/walton , http://getclojure.org:8080/examples/let (replace let with whatever function you'd like examples for)
22:35	defn	Licenser: you are too kind
22:35	defn	:)
22:36	Licenser	and I didn't even start :P
22:38	chouser	defn: standard copyright rules, whatever that means in your case.
22:38	Licenser	defn: it gets cooler and cooler
22:40	chouser	defn: actually, I think the source snippets from Halloway's book are all open source on github
22:41	chouser	I don't think ours are yet, though that's something I suppose we should look into.
22:46	Licenser	neat neat!
22:47	Licenser	is there something like tree-map I missed?
22:52	Licenser	hmm is there a way to 'appy' things to a form
22:52	Licenser	?
22:54	Licenser	I'd need to do something like (apply . object method args)
22:54	Licenser	hmm defn I just had an idea for walton
22:55	Licenser	since you use click to expand count the clicks on every string and sort them by the number of clicks :)
22:56	chouser	Licenser: if you don't know the number of args at compile time, you can use Reflector.
22:56	Licenser	with a special form?
22:57	chouser	no, for a method call
22:57	Licenser	or instead of .
22:57	chouser	right
22:57	Licenser	ah sneaky sneaky
22:57	Licenser	thank you chouser
22:57	chouser	there's nothing like apply that would work for arbitrary special forms.
22:57	Licenser	geez clj-sandbox will be slow :P
22:57	hiredman	you can always use eval to generate a function that does what you want
22:58	chouser	yeah, that's a good idea too
22:58	Licenser	hmm true too and a very neat idea hiredman :)
22:58	Licenser	sweet!
22:59	Licenser	but is this save or am I opening up a hole ponder
23:00	hiredman	if you wanted to be safe you shouldn't have left home this morning
23:00	asimjalis	chouser: I tried (infix 1 + 2 + 3) and it didn't work. Where is this defined?
23:00	asimjalis	,(infix 1 + 2 + 3)
23:00	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: infix in this context
23:01	chouser	asimjalis: infix is defined only in the book. It's just an example, not really meant to be used.
23:01	asimjalis	ok
23:02	Licenser	hiredman: I am sitting in my bed :P
23:02	asimjalis	Okay. I just saw that. It was on the next page.
23:03	chouser	asimjalis: ah. yeah, sometimes the example usage comes before the code.
23:04	defn	Licenser: lein search is awesome! thank you!
23:04	Licenser	defn: :) thank _ato too he's done a hell lot on the clojars side to make it happen
23:05	defn	_ato: thanks much for the work on lein search -- it's a very helpful utility
23:05	Licenser	defn: it makes it more gem like I feel :P at lest there is something neat as search and add now
23:20	Licenser	well time to go to work see you alter people
23:20	Licenser	*later
23:24	asimjalis	See ya.
23:25	asimjalis	Clojure is such a dangerous addiction. I almost wish there was a kind of warning label on it. You might not be able to go back to programming as usual after this.
23:25	asimjalis	It's too late for me now.
23:25	asimjalis	Also I am half-joking (obviously).
23:28	asimjalis	Maybe this is the difference: When I am programming in Java for a while now I have resigned myself to the realization that almost all code is one-off -- it doesn't matter how it's designed it won't be reused. But with Clojure I feel like the code is always so general that I can't imagine not reusing it again. It feels a lot more valuable somehow.
23:30	glogic	asimjalis: what's usual?
23:31	glogic	asimjalis: i'm concerned i can't go back to programming unusual
23:31	SirNick	Is there anyway to setup lein so that it works something like fsc, Scala's fast compiler, so the startup for the compiler doesn't take so long?
23:32	glogic	when people ask "what's your favorite compiler implementation" i'm going to jsut start saying "Eclipse!"
23:32	glogic	feel free to replace eclipse with whatever your favorite huge code generator / editor is
23:34	glogic	IDE etc..
23:35	asimjalis	The code bloat creates two problems: (a) it takes a lot of time to create it (b) it hides the essense of what's going on -- in Eclipse I constantly feel like I am looking for a lost child in a mall.
23:36	glogic	asimjalis: aren't you?
23:36	glogic	asimjalis: maybe, Eclipse makes you feel like you ARE the lost child in the mall
23:36	glogic	lol
23:36	asimjalis	Yes. The child is my train of thought. It's so interruptive.
23:37	albino	lost child looking for parentage?
23:37	glogic	this was pretty awesome btw: http://www.pidjin.net/2010/04/11/stop-me-if-i-can/
23:40	asimjalis	That's funny.
23:41	glogic	asimjalis: right
23:43	asimjalis	How to I mention on my resume that I only want to work with Clojure without sounding like some kind of a moron. What's a polite way to say this?
23:43	glogic	asimjalis: say you'er a java programmer, just fail to mention you program java by way of Clojure
23:44	asimjalis	It sounds kind of fanboy-ish and immature. I've always listed the languages I've programmed in.
23:44	asimjalis	I think it is fanboy-ish and immature if it was said about any other language. But Clojure needs to be an exception.
23:45	asimjalis	I realize this is all very inconsistent. Hence my dilemma.
23:46	glogic	i think the simplest thing is to do what you've always done, but add Clojure, then in interviews it will make an interesting conversation piece, which you might be able to convince new people to also use Clojure
23:46	glogic	adding it to your list ofp rogramming languags will make you sound interesting (as lame as that sounds)
23:47	tomoj	I happened to mention clojure only to discover that my CTO loves it and had done SICP in clojure
23:47	glogic	see there you go