#clojure – 2010-03-18

2010-03-18

00:12	defn	hmmm...
00:13	defn	so i have an idea -- id like to make something like: (what? [1 2 3] [3 2 1]) => (reverse [1 2 3])
00:14	mikem	defn: looks like a "function inference engine" :D
00:15	defn	yeah i guess that's exactly what it is
00:15	defn	i remember seeing why the lucky stiff's "what_method?"
00:16	defn	you could do basic stuff that was similar to the above what_method?([x, y, z] [z, y, x])
00:16	defn	i wonder if it might be easier to implement something like that in clojure, that the "code is data" thing might make life a bit easier...
00:22	defn	ooohhh a fuzzy inference engine maybe?
00:25	defn	ah-ha! no way! http://vimeo.com/9843950
00:27	rubknob	defn, i haven't had a chance to look at _why's style of programming but what are your opinions on his style?
00:38	lancepantz	do you guys pronounce lein as 'line' or 'lean' ?
00:42	Raynes	lancepantz: 'line'
00:43	Raynes	Leiningen is pronounced 'LINE-ing-N', afaik.
00:45	lancepantz	thanks Raynes
01:52	defn	rubknob: my opinion on his style is that it's artsy and creative
01:56	defn	Does anyone have a working circumspec setup?
02:17	crowb4r	what is circumspec?
02:22	defn	stuart halloway's testing framework
02:22	crowb4r	defn: ahhh
02:22	defn	none it looks to be working ATM
02:22	defn	or maybe i just dont know how to set this up
02:22	defn	i havent read a single blog post or anything on it
02:22	defn	and his video shows it working, with no mention of beyond some very general information
02:22	defn	as to how
02:27	rfg	hmm, I have a macro defined in one namespace that is used in another namespace. When I compile the second namespace usually all is fine, but on OS X I'm getting "No such namespace" errors on my Java class imports.
02:42	rfg	Where I have (new BorderLayout) it gets expanded to (new java.awt.BorderLayout) but later on when I do (.add canvas# BorderLayout/CENTER), BorderLayout is not resolved.
03:15	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
03:15	clojurebot	PONG!
03:21	sunkencityryleh	.
03:22	sunkencityryleh	I don't get "lein swank" to work it just says "swank is not a task" although I have [leiningen/lein-swank "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"] as a dev-depencency
03:23	hiredman	have you run lein deps?
03:24	sunkencityryleh	yes
03:25	sunkencityryleh	it has downloaded a jar (swank-clojure-1.2.0-break-20100308.145053-4.jar) but maybe I should go with an earlier version of lein-swank?
03:35	LauJensen	Morning team
03:38	TheBusby	morning
03:40	sunkencityryleh	ok, so if I'm running leiningen 1.1.0 I cannot run lein-swank 1.2.0 ?
04:12	LauJensen	sunkencityryleh: No, not that Im aware of
04:13	sunkencityryleh	LauJensen: ok, it's weird because none of the leiningen plugs I install as dev-dependencies work
04:13	LauJensen	You mean they aren't added to the CP when you fire M-x swank-clojure-project?
04:14	sunkencityryleh	I'm trying "lein swank"
04:14	sunkencityryleh	or "lein run"
04:15	sunkencityryleh	but it just says that "swank is not a task"
04:15	sunkencityryleh	I guess I'll have to try to find a project with a working project.clj file and start from there
04:17	LauJensen	http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/02/reddit-clone-in-10-minutes-and-91-lines-of-clojure/
04:17	LauJensen	sunkencityryleh: Check out the deployment section and git clone the repo
04:18	sunkencityryleh	thnx, cloning it now
04:19	LauJensen	np
04:20	sunkencityryleh	should I be able to run "lein swank" on that?
04:20	sunkencityryleh	or do you somehow initiate the swank session from emacs through project.clj?
04:22	LauJensen	second - Ive never used lein swakn
04:25	sunkencityryleh	ok
04:26	Raynes	sunkencityryleh: You need to add lein-swank to your dev-dependencies.
04:26	Raynes	leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0"
04:27	sunkencityryleh	Raynes: I had it there, but now I think I see what's missing from the project file, needed :main as soon as I added "[leiningen/lein-swank "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"]" to dev-dependencies on LauJensens project I could run "lein swank"
04:27	sunkencityryleh	what I mean is that ":main foobar" was missing from my project.clj
04:33	sunkencityryleh	ok the problem was something completely different: dev-dependencies need to be placed in lib/ and doesn't honour :library-path directives
04:34	sunkencityryleh	now I got it running
04:34	hiredman	you might file a bug
04:35	sunkencityryleh	will do. at least they need to be there to show up as lein $TASK
04:46	sunkencityryleh	ok filed the bug. Been trying to crack that one for a while, it's a bit tedious to have to reboot the server for every change. doing the clojure appengine thing so I need to have the lib directory in WEB-INF
05:45	Raynes	I can't believe it just took me 10 minutes to write a pangram checker. :\|
05:45	Raynes	I guess when there is like 20 thousand ways to do it, and you're not sure which one is best, they kind of begin to melt your brain.
05:53	LauJensen	Raynes: use set?
05:53	Raynes	LauJensen: That's what I went with.
05:54	Raynes	LauJensen: It filters out anything that isn't a character and then turns it into a set and compares it against a set of all characters in the alphabet.
05:57	Raynes	If that isn't good enough, I'll happily admit I suck.
05:57	Raynes	inb4anotherredneckjoke
06:03	LauJensen	Didnt mean to knock you
06:11	defn	sorry to harp on this, but im really interested in playing with it
06:11	defn	has anyone successfully set up circumspec?
06:12	Raynes	LauJensen: Did you get the message I sent after you send "Didn't mean to knock you"
06:13	LauJensen	no
06:13	Raynes	LauJensen: <Raynes> You didn't. I was just putting that out there. I usually write code that sucks. I don't think I've ever written a piece of Clojure code that wasn't improved exponentially when I let someone else fiddle with it.
06:15	esj	oh oh, the instructions say to "be brave"
06:15	Raynes	esj: That's probably why they have a name that reminds everybody of circumcision.
06:28	Licenser_	greetings my lispy friends!
06:29	LauJensen	Greetings and salutations!
06:29	Raynes	Greetings, sir Licenser.
06:29	LauJensen	(too slow)
06:29	Raynes	;)
06:29	Licenser_	:)
06:31	sunkencityryleh	why do I get "IncompatibleClassChangeError" when I try to (use 'ring.adapter.jetty), I can load ring.adapter.httpcore fine.
06:42	spariev	so far, defn is the only one who's brave here at #clojure :)
06:42	esj	I heard him practicing his "FREEDDOOMM" shout earlier
06:46	Licenser_	why is defn brave?
06:48	spariev	Licenser_: he's trying to setup http://github.com/stuarthalloway/circumspec with phrase "Be brave" in README :)
06:49	zmila	my salutations and thanks to lpetit! i'm waiting for new release of CCW plugin
06:50	Licenser_	ahh sneaky
06:50	Raynes	Two words: auto indentation
06:51	Licenser_	defn: if you manage to do it make a blog post so the less brave of us can follow
06:53	zmila	auto ident is promised to be in the next CCW version
06:54	lpetit	Hi
06:54	lpetit	I confirm. I'm currently polishing it on my machine
06:54	lpetit	s/polishing/debugging/ :-)
06:54	lpetit	zmila: salutations too
06:55	Licenser_	is CCW any good? AKA better then enclojure?
06:55	lpetit	Licenser_: not as feature complete, yet
06:55	zmila	i'm using ccw for some monthes, and installed enclojure last week
06:57	zmila	enclojure has some minor advantages, but its repl uses pretty-print wich has bug - it doesn't follow print-length and displays the whole sequence
06:57	lpetit	My rationale is really not to get people migrate from other IDEs to ccw, but rather to do my best so that people used to eclipse can continue use it when migrating to clojure. If people migrate from other IDEs, great, but that's not the goal. I think every people should be able to stay on the IDE he likes.
06:58	zmila	our team for ages uses eclipse with java and related
06:58	Licenser_	lpetit: I just still look for a IDE that I like. I am not really happy with EMACS nor with enclojure
06:59	lpetit	zmila: I would be happy to get from you a thorough description of what you like and dislike about ccw
06:59	LauJensen	Hey Laurent
06:59	lpetit	Licenser_: what is it you dislike about enclojure ?
06:59	lpetit	LauJensen: Hi Lau !
06:59	Licenser_	Mostly that it is slow, that it is not so nice do interact with the REPL
07:00	Licenser_	but the NB 6.8 logo looks way cooler then the Eclipse one
07:00	lpetit	Licenser_: sure this is a great reason :-)
07:00	zmila	lpetit - i posted some feature-requsts to your project
07:00	lpetit	zmila: oh it was you ? :-)
07:00	zmila	most wanted - code folding
07:01	Licenser_	lpetit: it is! My work laptop is horrible slow I have to look at the logo 1-2 minutes I
07:01	Licenser_	need to see something nice during that time so I don"t flip and run amok
07:02	lpetit	zmila: ok. I also need to rework on the outline, it's currently based on the clojure reader, not so great for parsing potentially broken source code.
07:02	zmila	my laptop (some aser) is enough to run eclipse with bunch of plugins (gwt, scala, clojure)
07:03	lpetit	Licenser_: sorry, can't do anything for this :-)
07:04	lpetit	Time to go eat smth, cu
07:04	zmila	lpetit - now the most annoing is some vague paredit behaviour: when i type ( inside existing s-exprs, the plugin inserts ).
07:05	zmila	similar is when i try to put ), the paredit just jumps to the end of )))) to corresponding brace
07:06	Maddas	Licenser_: Time to pick up meditation!
07:06	Maddas	Every time to look at the logo, there's your mini meditation-retreat :-)
07:06	Licenser_	Maddas: I startet martial arts classes :P
07:07	Maddas	I have a feeling that shadow boxing for a minute to kill the time will not calm you down, but whatever works :P
07:07	LauJensen	Licenser_: How recently ?
07:08	Licenser_	a year ago, did it half a year then had a accident and had to pause half a year now I was allowed to start again
07:08	LauJensen	ok
07:08	lpetit	zmila: this is expected behavior, no ? paredit tries hard to keep parens correcty balanced. So if you type (without double quotes) "(defn [arg] (hello))" then at each time you will have syntaxically correct code.
07:08	esj	i have some experience of accidents in martial arts classes...
07:08	Licenser_	Maddas: but training choking techniques on my co workers does wonders!
07:08	Licenser_	esj: no no it was a work accident
07:09	Licenser_	I tore my miniscus when I was at a customers site and got attacked by network cables
07:09	lpetit	zmila: may I close issue http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/issues/detail?id=60 ?
07:10	esj	Licenser_: have mercy. I tore my meniscus, and some other stuff in the knee learning that I could in fact not fly
07:10	Licenser_	o.O
07:10	zmila	yes, this issue was due my bad mixing of versions
07:11	lpetit	zmila: but indeed there is some bug in the parser. Hopefully also corrected in the next release
07:11	lpetit	'
07:12	lpetit	Folks, if you just type counterclockwise in your local google, how far in the list do you see "counterclockwise - Project Hosting on Google Code" ?
07:12	Maddas	7th
07:12	zmila	first
07:12	Raynes	4th
07:12	lpetit	7th in England, not so bad
07:13	lpetit	first ???? Where are you located ?
07:13	lpetit	Raynes: yeah, me too, 4th in France
07:13	lpetit	That's great ! :-)
07:13	lpetit	Must really go eat smthg, cu
07:13	Raynes	I'm in the USA. :>
07:14	lpetit	Raynes: oh :-)
07:15	Licenser_	lpetit: #9
07:15	Licenser_	in germany
07:16	LauJensen	lpetit: 3.rd in DK
07:16	zmila	lpetit, what is the best way to edit "(defn [arg] (inc arg))" to get "(defn [arg] (if (odd? arg) (inc arg))" ? in any try i have to twice delete auto-inserted ) and lately put one ).
07:17	Licenser_	TM allows things like marking a region then pressing " to encapsulate it in " which I found very nice
07:24	esj	Raynes: what brand of coffee do you drink... I want some.
07:24	Raynes	esj: I drink Lipton Black Tea. ;)
07:24	esj	this seems impossible.
07:25	Raynes	But the reason I've been up all night is because I woke up at 10:00pm.
07:25	LauJensen	Raynes: you mean 2200 hours
07:25	Raynes	Yeah. That.
07:25	esj	LauJensen: No, he means 17:00:00 UTC
07:26	esj	;)
07:26	LauJensen	oh - Another american staying up all night to crash the economy...well its not the first time I guess :)
07:26	esj	oh, i thought it was already crashed ?
07:26	Raynes	Huh? Why is java.util.Date not recognizing daylight savings time. :(
07:27	Raynes	My $time command is borked because of it now.
07:27	esj	Raynes: a world of pain. Check out the Chrono project in Incanter
07:27	Raynes	<Raynes> $time
07:27	Raynes	<sexpbot> Raynes: The time is now Thu Mar 18 05:26:24 CST 2010
07:31	Licenser_	clojurebot: what time is it?
07:31	clojurebot	multimethods is what separates the boys from the men.
07:31	Licenser_	thank you clojurebot, you're helpful as always.
07:32	LauJensen	Raynes: Daylight Savings Time doesnt start here for another 3 days I think
07:32	Raynes	LauJensen: It started several days ago here, so there.
07:32	Raynes	:p
07:32	LauJensen	Im just saying, you sure your java lib knows that?
07:33	esj	if it uses tz then yes.
07:33	Raynes	LauJensen: I don't know what Date knows. I know people filed bug reports about it back in 06.
07:33	Raynes	And I think the bugs are still standing.
07:33	LauJensen	You mean THE date? I thought you knew, we're all using Joda nowadays
07:33	sunkencityryleh	it's not possible to load ring.adapter.jetty while at the same time having appengine-tools-sdk in classpath. bummer :( maybe I can start a swank-server inside the app somehow in dev mode instead.
07:33	Raynes	Joda it its.
07:34	Raynes	is*
07:35	esj	joda is wrapper in chrono
07:35	Raynes	esj: clj-time is on Clojars.
07:35	_mst	Java also ships with its own timezone files. A lovely surprise for sysadmins everywhere :)
07:49	defn	ahhhh, scotch at 7am...
07:52	defn	Mardon me padam. I fool so feelish. I'm under the alfluence of inkahol. Teny meeple pink I'm drunk but they may not think they so bad off as I am.
07:52	defn	afluence*
07:52	defn	</off-topic>
07:54	defn	haha -- im only sipping -- worked all night and missed the St. Patrick's day festivities...
08:13	defn	,$
08:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: $ in this context
08:14	defn	is $ anything in clojure?
08:14	Chousuke	no
08:14	defn	heh, is that a ridiculous question? or is it intentional?
08:15	Raynes	defn: It's my bot's command prepend. Does that count? ;)
08:15	defn	we have everything except $, %, ; -- what am I missing?
08:16	Raynes	,.
08:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: . in this context
08:16	Raynes	Oh yeah, dot is used.
08:16	Raynes	Heh.
08:16	spariev	,:-
08:16	clojurebot	:-
08:16	defn	what's that thing?! :)
08:16	Licenser_	,
08:16	clojurebot	EOF while reading
08:16	Licenser_	,:-P
08:16	clojurebot	:-P
08:16	Raynes	,()
08:16	clojurebot	()
08:17	defn	,::--PP
08:17	clojurebot	:sandbox/--PP
08:17	Licenser_	,-3
08:17	clojurebot	-3
08:17	defn	,(doc :)
08:17	Raynes	LauJensen: If that presentation pops up, let me know so I can brag to all my (fictional) friends. :D
08:17	clojurebot	Invalid token: :
08:17	LauJensen	hehe - will do
08:18	defn	;-xyz
08:18	defn	,-xyz
08:18	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: -xyz in this context
08:19	defn	(def -f 42)
08:19	defn	,(def -f 42)
08:19	clojurebot	DENIED
08:19	sunkencityryleh	in the olden days run-server would start a jetty instance and then return, but with this new run-jetty it just keeps on having control of the thread, do I manually need to start a thread?
08:19	Licenser_	no def for you
08:19	Raynes	That's a no-no.
08:19	Licenser_	,(eval 1)
08:19	clojurebot	DENIED
08:19	defn	-x works, huh?
08:20	defn	weird
08:20	defn	err (def -x 1)
08:20	Licenser_	defn: clojure bot does not allow to def stuff
08:20	Licenser_	, (set! a 1)
08:20	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
08:20	Licenser_	,(set! warn-on-reflections true)
08:20	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: warn-on-reflections in this context
08:20	defn	(def $f 1) works
08:21	Licenser_	,(set! warn-on-reflection true)
08:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: warn-on-reflection with set
08:21	Licenser_	good :) clojurebot does not break!
08:21	Licenser_	,clojure-version
08:21	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
08:22	spariev	is it ok to use keywords like :- and :+ ?
08:22	Licenser_	,(set! clojure-version {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"})
08:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: clojure-version with set
08:22	Licenser_	:D
08:22	spariev	i mean is it considered good style ?
08:22	defn	how could that be good style?
08:22	defn	:)
08:22	Licenser_	defn: like for writing parsers
08:22	defn	oh i see
08:23	spariev	I'm writing parser right now and use :-
08:23	defn	i can see some cases where it might be novel
08:23	Licenser_	see :P
08:23	Licenser_	then I
08:23	Licenser_	'd say yes
08:23	defn	spariev: could you give an example line where you use :-
08:23	spariev	ie (when (= "-(" open-paren) :-)
08:23	Licenser_	like to represent 1 + 1
08:23	Licenser_	{:function
08:23	spariev	writing parser for lucene queries
08:23	defn	very cool
08:23	Licenser_	{:function :+ :args [1 1]}
08:24	spariev	compatible with sphinxsearch syntax
08:24	defn	Gene?
08:24	clojurebot	markov chain generator is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-study-dc/browse_frm/thread/026ccdc8acb102f9?pli=1
08:24	lpetit	zmila: currently, none that is satisfactory. I also (since I'm eating my own dogfood when writing ccw) have to select a space around the bracket to be able to delete one. When paredit gets more feature (not the next release, the next - next), you will be able to "slurp" an sepxr into another, like this (consider the cursor is located where I place the pipe char \| ) : "(defn [arg] \|(inc...
08:24	lpetit	...arg))" -> EDIT -> "(defn [arg] (if (odd? arg))\|(inc arg))" -> BACKSPACE -> "(defn [arg] (if (odd? arg)\|)(inc arg))" -> SLURP -> "(defn [arg] (if (odd? arg) \|(inc arg)))"
08:25	spariev	Only with lisp you can have smilies in your code :-)
08:25	defn	,(:-)
08:25	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :-
08:25	defn	,'(:-)
08:25	clojurebot	(:-)
08:26	defn	i want to make a tshirt with that on it
08:26	Licenser_	it is cool
08:26	Licenser_	I bet you could make a smily brainfuck interpreter in clojure
08:27	defn	it's just so distinct -- i really love that about clojure -- it has a real flavor to it
08:27	defn	the java flavor was always like swallowing a rock
08:27	defn	but this is awesome
08:27	zmila	lpetit, ok. but maybe it's reasonable to make auto-insert be configurable? say i turn it off, type a lot of code, then press "reformat" (nice feature request:) or do balance by myself
08:28	defn	spariev: that's very cool you're working on lucene + sphinxsearch -- do you have any public code?
08:29	lpetit	zmila: or with another possibility of paredit, which is to encapsulate an sexpr in surrounding parens : "(defn [arg] (inc arg)\|)" -> GO TO MATCHING BRACKET -> "(defn [arg] \|(inc arg))" -> SURROUND WITH PARENS -> "(defn [arg] (\|(inc arg)))" -> EDIT -> "(defn [arg] (if (odd? arg)\| (inc arg)))"
08:29	Licenser_	lpetit: that
08:29	Licenser_	'd be awsome :)
08:30	Licenser_	I also really want a SLURP key on my keyboard now :(
08:30	lpetit	zmila: in paredit, there's a keyboard shortcut to say : insert the next character I type "as is", do not use paredit. Or you can disable paredit by going to the workbench clojure preferences
08:31	lpetit	What could be the slurp keyboard shortcut for Eclipse ? What could be the SURROUND WITH PARENS keyboard shortcut for Eclipse ?
08:31	zmila	lpetit, maybe. i can't find "select till matching paren"
08:31	defn	i really wish paredit worked properly on {}, and in slime
08:31	lpetit	defn: what do you intend by "worked properly on {}" ?
08:31	defn	slurping and spitting like () or []
08:32	lpetit	zmila: like in java editing : Ctrl + Alt + P
08:32	spariev	defn: well, it's more like lucene instead sphinx - we are moving from sphinx to lucene-backed (zoie + bobo, to be more precise) search, and I want to make as little changes in frontend as it possible
08:32	defn	err slurping and barfing
08:32	lpetit	defn: I guess there are some additions to paredit.el floating around the community. Though not integrated into technomancy's "bundle"
08:33	zmila	lpetit - C-A-P just jumps to matching brace, not selects the text inside
08:33	defn	i used the bundle as a template
08:33	lpetit	zmila: oh, "select" till matching paren, not I don't have this one right now
08:33	defn	i think it is a much better experience to learn elisp while you learn clojure
08:34	LauJensen	"learn elisp", whats to learn ?
08:34	defn	i didnt know a lisp -- or do you mean that sarcastically?
08:34	lpetit	zmila: I guess it will be like in java editing, but not named "select to matching bracket", but rather "Expand selection to enclosing element" ( Shift + Alt + Up)
08:35	LauJensen	defn: Im just saying there's not a whole lot to learn, its a homoiconic prefix notated lisp, just like clojure. the scope of its use is very simple and after a skim of the API you're good to go
08:35	LauJensen	oh course if you're drunk, its another story I'll give you that :)
08:36	lpetit	zmila: a contributor contributed this, it will be included in the next release, too. He did not make this by extending paredit, though, so the underlying implementation wil change over time, when I port it to paredit (and it will handle edge cases better as well then, I guess)
08:37	lpetit	"a contributor contributed", wow, I'm really a good writer :-)
08:37	zmila	lpetit, ok. there are also C+S+[ or C+A+( unbound (for "wrap in [" or "wrap in (")
08:38	LauJensen	lpetit: You're a frenchmen from france, its ok
08:38	zmila	new Runnable.run() :)
08:38	lpetit	zmila: I would not mind if you put an entry or this in the bug tracker, as a reminder. And then you can also "follow" the bug and see when it is implemented
08:39	zmila	ok, lpetit. I'll create new issue for slurp or wrap
08:40	lpetit	And maybe a separate one for For C+S+[ / C+S+{ / C+S+(
08:40	lpetit	oh you said "or wrap", sorry. Seperate issues for slurp and for wrap, please
08:40	lpetit	zmila: thx
08:40	lpetit	LauJensen: :-p
08:42	defn	LauJensen: I don't like how (:a \|:b :c) -> OPEN PAREN -> (:a (\|):b :c) -> SLURP -> (:a (\| :b) :c) works
08:42	LauJensen	What are we talking about now defn ?
08:42	zmila	lpetit, do you have any architectural docs for your ccw project? if i decide to try to contribute to the plugin, how do i start? besides downloading the sources
08:43	defn	bah, sorry
08:44	lpetit	zmila: alas, not yet
08:45	lpetit	zmila: you are already familiar with eclipse plugin dev ?
08:45	defn	LauJensen: Maybe I'm just not as smart as you. To me, homoiconicity, prefix notated lisp, was not something I just intuitively realized in one afternoon.
08:46	defn	homoiconic*
08:46	zmila	lpetit, not yet. but this skill is in my wish-list :)
08:46	LauJensen	defn: I dont remember how long it took me, but for Raynes it came naturally
08:46	Raynes	Homoiconicity made sense to me rather instantly.
08:46	LauJensen	defn: (and I wasn't making any remakrs about your IQ, which Im sure is quite high)
08:47	zmila	now i'm in a project where the whole UI is build like eclipse: workbench/editors/views/plugins
08:47	Raynes	I think I have an IQ of 108.
08:47	Raynes	But that was a year ago.
08:48	defn	Raynes: I guess I just don't believe you just instantly understood the implications of a homoiconic language.
08:48	defn	That seems to border on certain arrogance.
08:48	Raynes	Code that writes code. I'm not sure what is ambiguous about that.
08:49	Raynes	Maybe I only think I understand it then?
08:49	LauJensen	defn: Thats out of line imho- The fact that raynes either understood, or failed to understand all of the implications does not warrent that you call him arrogant
08:49	Raynes	It's alright. Maybe I am being arrogant. I /think/ I understand the implications. Maybe I'm wrong.
08:50	defn	I think you're reading me wrong here
08:50	lpetit	zmila: maybe you can open a bug to remind me to write a wiki page on how to start with installing the ccw dev environment ? :-)
08:50	defn	What I'm trying to say is that yeah, code writing code, that's not very difficult to think about. A robot building a robot. I just don't think I understood out of the box how to apply that.
08:51	defn	i need to know what a robot is before i can use it, you know?
08:52	defn	and there again I suppose you could probably claim that, yeah, a language is composed of little pieces, and you just use them -- but again I would feel like I would be cheating a bit to say I knew all of them
08:52	zmila	lpetit, in our team exists following convention: one who asks smth, after receiving answer, must write what he get into wiki :)
08:53	Raynes	I never said I was instantly an expert on homoiconicity.
08:53	defn	zmila: haha, that is an excellent idea
08:53	Raynes	I knew about it before I learned Clojure.
08:53	Raynes	Macros came easy to me, however.
08:53	defn	Ah, not to me.
08:53	Raynes	Understanding them, that is.
08:53	zmila	so, if you tell me "how to ..." - then I write this for you (and for all new-comers)
08:53	Raynes	Writing them? Heh.
08:54	Chousuke	I find designing macros much trickier than writing them
08:54	lpetit	zmila: give me your google account, now ! :è)
08:54	lpetit	:-)
08:54	lpetit	zmila: and I open up the wiki for you :-)
08:54	defn	yeah i think maybe my definition of understanding is just including the whole application rather than just 'getting the idea'
08:54	Chousuke	I mean, for any one problem a macro can solve, there are n different macros you can write
08:54	defn	Chousuke: yeah, it is a different layer
08:55	Raynes	Well, I wasn't lying when I said that Lisp came easy to me. My only real exposure to anything else was primarily Haskell, so I didn't have much of anything else bleeding my mind dry of resources.
08:55	defn	ah-ha -- I came from Ruby. A lot of it made a whole mess of sense to me.
08:55	defn	Other things not so quickly
08:56	Raynes	Metadata is what I had trouble with.
08:56	Raynes	I could not understand what it was useful for.
08:56	Raynes	I still never really use it.
08:56	defn	I think I'm close to my 6 month mark with clojure and I feel like I'm building some muscle
08:56	defn	Raynes: oh man! it's great!
08:56	Chousuke	and you need to consider several attributes. How well does it fit with existing code or language idioms? Is it flexible enough that the user is not tempted to write the pattern manually anyway? Does it make the code clearer? ... all kinds of questions
08:57	defn	i remember being in a daniel dennett lecture and I began thinking about some very elabroate silly AI idea with metadata, you can use it for all sorts of cool purposes
08:58	Chousuke	I often hear people saying that lisp has little syntax, but what do you call all those little mini-languages that macros implement using the basic syntactic elements? :/
08:59	Chousuke	lisp can have a lot of syntax if you don't restrain yourself :P
08:59	defn	haha
09:00	defn	i love this line i heard awhile back... i think it was in code complete, about a guy "meditating for 4 hours and then emitting a single, elegant statement"
09:00	defn	something like that, anyway
09:00	Chousuke	Which is why I think macros should be designed to reuse syntactic elements so that their semantics approximate their use in other macros
09:00	defn	Chousuke: could you show me what you mean?
09:01	Chousuke	defn: eg. it would be silly to write a macro in Clojure that takes arguments in a list.
09:01	Chousuke	You should use a vector instead
09:02	Chousuke	it would be trivial to write CL-style let or defun but it wouldn't be idiomatic :/
09:02	Raynes	There still isn't anything for SOAP in Clojure-world is there?
09:06	defn	Chousuke: ahhh!
09:06	Raynes	You know... clojars.org could have been a full-fledged Clojure project forge.
09:06	chouser	github's really good at most of that
09:06	defn	it can't be still?
09:07	defn	github doesnt have let you see what the 70th most popular clojure project is
09:07	defn	i really dislike that limitation
09:07	Raynes	chouser: Github is great, but that's not my point.
09:07	defn	Raynes: i agree with you 100%
09:07	defn	err 90%, i think it still has the potential to be
09:08	Raynes	Maybe we should tell ato.
09:08	Raynes	Sadly, he isn't here right now. :(
09:08	defn	he's a busy man I'm sure
09:08	Raynes	Indeed, but we should still run it by him.
09:08	defn	that code is publicly available fwiw
09:08	Chousuke	I wish clojars.org at least had links to the official project page :P
09:08	Raynes	I don't do web-development.
09:08	Raynes	:\|
09:08	Raynes	Ever.
09:08	defn	"patches welcome."
09:09	Raynes	If he says that, we'll go get a guy name Patches to run it by him. :p
09:10	defn	ive met a starsizio, but never a patches
09:10	defn	ive also never met a bertrand
09:10	defn	but that's another story entirely
09:17	Raynes	http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Color_of_a_screen_pixel#Clojure
09:18	Raynes	Oops, wrong window.
09:46	LauJensen	defn: ping?
09:48	spariev	just received email about updates to Practical Clojure book
09:48	spariev	two new chapters on parallel programming and datatypes/protocols
09:54	rfg	spariev: they haven't sent me an e-mail :(
10:40	patrkris	is there a smart way to ad hoc suppress printing in the REPL for the evaluation of a form?
10:43	bmason	patrkris: check out with-out-str
10:44	bmason	might not be exactly what you're looking for but it's the right area of the API I'd wager
10:45	patrkris	bmason: it's fine for me, thanks!
10:47	Chousuke	you can also bind out to a dummy Writer
10:47	bmason	right... and I think with-out-str uses bind internally
10:52	patrkris	is there an easy way to get several values from a map given a set of keys and have the result as a list/vector?
10:53	patrkris	the latter in the order of the keys given
10:53	chouser	(map your-map keys)
10:53	chouser	heh
10:53	chouser	that's not very clear. vocab collision
10:53	chouser	,(map {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3} [:c :a])
10:53	clojurebot	(3 1)
10:54	patrkris	chouser: of course! I should've figured that out myself! :)
10:56	fliebel	chauser: wait… you just used a map as a function?
10:57	fliebel	*chouser
10:57	patrkris	fliebel: yes he does
10:57	Chousuke	fliebel: they are functions :)
10:58	patrkris	fliebel: which I should have known how to utilize
10:58	fliebel	uuuhm… let me see...
10:58	fliebel	,({:a 1, :b 2, :c 3} :c)
10:58	clojurebot	3
10:58	fliebel	wow
10:59	Chousuke	fliebel: associative things in general are functions of keys to values
10:59	Chousuke	fliebel: works for vectors too
10:59	Chousuke	and sets; the values are just the keys themselves.
10:59	fliebel	How about the other way around?
10:59	fliebel	,(:c {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3})
10:59	clojurebot	3
10:59	Chousuke	for keywords and symbols, yes.
11:00	fliebel	So any collection is a function that will return the value corresponding to the key?
11:00	arnihermann	Can anyone take a look at this macro: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/191133/
11:00	Chousuke	fliebel: any Clojure associative collection
11:01	arnihermann	when I expand it, I get weird fn back
11:01	arnihermann	(fn* ([] (clojure.core/for [pred__2980__auto__ state__2981__auto__ :let [[p0 p1 p2 p3] pred__2980__auto__] :when (and (= cell) (= b))] {?y 2, 2 1})))
11:01	Chousuke	fliebel: neither lists nor seqs are functions
11:01	fliebel	ok :( so I can't do ([:a :b :c] 0)
11:01	arnihermann	I meant, (fn* ([state__3078__auto__] (clojure.core/for [pred__3079__auto__ state__3078__auto__ :let [[p0 p1 p2 p3] pred__3079__auto__] :when (and (= cell) (= b))] {?y 2, 2 1}))), which looks odd (fn ([...] ...)
11:01	Chousuke	fliebel: you can. that's a vector, not a list :)
11:02	Chousuke	fliebel: it's associative
11:02	Chousuke	arnihermann: fn is a macro
11:02	Chousuke	arnihermann: expands to fn*
11:02	fliebel	uuuhm, Whats the difference between a vector, seq and a list? All of them are a bunch of values, right?
11:02	Chousuke	arnihermann: you can treat fn* as fn without destructuring
11:03	Chousuke	fliebel: a vector is an indexed collection, a seq is a list-like "virtual" collection, and a list is just a list: no indexes
11:03	arnihermann	ah
11:04	arnihermann	not sure how I fix this...
11:04	fliebel	Chousuke: which means? I can't get the nth item of a list?
11:04	Chousuke	fliebel: you can, but not in constant time
11:04	zmila	nth element from list is O(n), nth of vector is O(1), i guess
11:04	Chousuke	for the meaning of "constant" as applied to clojure collections...
11:05	esj	has anybody tried to store a set using congomongo ? I get an error it can't serialize the set, and was wondering if there is a good reason why that should be the case.
11:05	fliebel	uuuhm, okay, so why would I want to use a list or seq?
11:05	Chousuke	fliebel: why not? for a lot of your data, you don't care about the index.
11:05	esj	i mailed somnium but I think he's on holiday, probably skiing !
11:05	zmila	depends on what operations your want to perform on the collection
11:05	Chousuke	fliebel: and seqs can be lazy, unlike vectors
11:06	fliebel	I knew that one… But for the rest it's a matter of efficiency?
11:07	Raynes	I is clean, shaven, and ready to go. :D
11:07	dpritchett	I really enjoyed Ch 4 on sequences in Programming Clojure
11:07	arnihermann	Chousuke: without destructuring?
11:07	dpritchett	I have not built much with clojure yet but it certainly helped me understand
11:08	esj	Raynes - surely its bedtime by now ?
11:08	esj	youth of today !
11:08	Raynes	esj: Absolutely not! It's time to take rentals back to movie gallery and get some chow.
11:09	Chousuke	arnihermann: yeah. the code for destructuring is generated by the fn macro and fn* doesn't need to support it.
11:10	Chousuke	,(macroexpand '(fn [[a b]] [b a]))
11:10	clojurebot	(fn* ([p__6668] (clojure.core/let [[a b] p__6668] [b a])))
11:12	Raynes	,(macroexpand '(macroexpand blah))
11:12	clojurebot	(macroexpand blah)
11:12	Raynes	:D
11:13	arnihermann	Chousuke: still not following, sorry :) can you propose a solution?
11:13	arnihermann	code bit?
11:14	Chousuke	arnihermann: oh, I don't think that applies to your problem
11:14	Chousuke	arnihermann: what is your problem, anyway?
11:14	Chousuke	how does the macro fail?
11:14	arnihermann	code should be generated (fn []) but not (fn ([]))
11:14	arnihermann	notice the extra parenthesis
11:14	arnihermann	around []
11:14	arnihermann	right?
11:14	Chousuke	arnihermann: ah, that's not an issue.
11:15	Chousuke	arnihermann: that's part of fn syntax
11:15	arnihermann	hmm
11:15	raek	fliebel: it's a common clojurian practice to use vectors when you want some kind of literal sequence in you code
11:15	arnihermann	(expand-true '(cell ?x ?y b) '?player)
11:15	arnihermann	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
11:15	Chousuke	(fn [foo] bar) is just shorthand for (fn ([foo] bar))
11:15	arnihermann	I get this error
11:15	arnihermann	when calling the code
11:15	arnihermann	ok, right
11:15	arnihermann	of course
11:15	raek	so, you will mostly see vectors in example code
11:16	arnihermann	and I don't understand the error msg
11:16	Chousuke	arnihermann: why are you quoting the parameters to expand-true?
11:17	raek	fliebel: (linked) lists and vectors have different performance for various operations
11:17	fliebel	I see
11:17	arnihermann	Chousuke: I don't want them evaluated
11:17	raek	it's efficient to add to the front of a list but to the back of a vector
11:17	Chousuke	arnihermann: they aren't.
11:17	Chousuke	arnihermann: parameters to macros are not evaluated
11:17	arnihermann	Chousuke: aaaa forget
11:17	Chousuke	arnihermann: they're just the plain symbols and whatever you pass
11:17	arnihermann	Chousuke: right
11:17	arnihermann	Chousuke: of course, I forgot
11:17	arnihermann	:\
11:17	raek	seqs are sequencial views of a collection (vector, list, map, java.util.Collection, etc)
11:18	raek	and not a collection type per se
11:18	Chousuke	seqs can also be constructed from simple functions, so there doesn't need to be an actual collection backing it.
11:19	arnihermann	Chousuke: (expand-true (cell ?x ?y b) player)java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: state__3440__auto__ in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:141)
11:19	psykotic	and in the airplane i wrote this hack:
11:19	arnihermann	Chousuke: the error now
11:20	arnihermann	Chousuke: but now I'm generating new symbol?
11:20	arnihermann	state#
11:20	psykotic	http://gist.github.com/336461
11:22	Chousuke	arnihermann: that would mean the generated code contains the state# symbol in some way that makes it refer to a global instead of the local variable
11:23	Chousuke	clojurebot: macro help
11:23	clojurebot	macro help is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/macro.html
11:23	Chousuke	arnihermann: could you fill in that, please?
11:27	ldp	Has anyone used vimclojure?
11:27	ldp	And is it any good?
11:27	fliebel	I do, and I like it.
11:27	ldp	fliebel: Thanks. :)
11:27	fliebel	You need to run nailgun in the background to get auto completion though.
11:28	ldp	fliebel: Explain?
11:28	fliebel	vimclojure relies on some strange java lib for a few more advanced features.
11:29	fliebel	I run it without it most of the tie unless I need to do extensive debugging.
11:29	ldp	fliebel: Ah, I see.
11:29	ldp	fliebel: Mind explaining how exactly I install vimclojure? I can't get it working. :/
11:30	fliebel	There is some strange video somewhere about it, but it took me a while as well.
11:33	Chousuke	http://kotka.blip.tv/#1894565 this one?
11:36	petrus	ldp: blog post about using vim with clojure: http://writequit.org/blog/?p=386
11:36	arnihermann	Chousuke: not sure I follow, again, sorry :)
11:37	Chousuke	arnihermann: I can help you better with the macro if you provide the information requested on the macro help page.
11:38	spariev	suppose I want iterate seq for side effects, what's more idiomatic - doseq or map wrapped with doall ?
11:38	Chousuke	I would say doseq
11:38	chouser	spariev: do you need the return value as well?
11:38	_invis	hi everyone
11:38	_invis	Hope you could help me
11:39	_invis	I want to use Emacs + CLojure... :)
11:39	arnihermann	Chousuke: thanks, will do
11:39	_invis	do all the same like here http://vimeo.com/2419596
11:39	Chousuke	hm, that's a bit old.
11:39	_invis	but When I start emacs I have message Cannot open load file, clojure-auto
11:40	Chousuke	yeah. it's outdated :(
11:40	_invis	what I should update ?
11:41	spariev	chouser: ie I need to modify some java objects and doto won't fit
11:41	spariev	chouser: so I dont need return value
11:42	spariev	doseq feels so imperative
11:42	chouser	spariev: then yes, I'd suggest doseq.
11:42	polypus	~ping
11:42	clojurebot	PONG!
11:42	spariev	chouser: thanks
11:42	Chousuke	spariev: that's the point. you're doing imperative things so make it look so :)
11:42	_invis	Guys plz help me to start emacs with clojure :(
11:43	spariev	yep, but it makes me sad :)
11:43	Chousuke	hm, I always forget what the best blog/source for installing emacs/clojure-mode is ;/
11:44	_invis	I did 90% like in this video
11:44	_invis	and all was ok
11:44	_invis	but Cannot open load file, clojure-auto WTf it mean
11:44	Chousuke	it means it's trying to load a script that no longer exists.
11:44	_invis	it was in clojure-mode.el ??
11:45	_invis	in 2008.. :( ?
11:45	Chousuke	something like that
11:45	_invis	hmm
11:45	Chousuke	_invis: I suggest you just install ELPA and use it to install the packages
11:45	_invis	so i just need to new emacs config
11:45	Chousuke	are you using the starter kit?
11:45	_invis	I trying ELPA
11:45	_invis	but it was bad
11:45	Chousuke	http://technomancy.us/126
11:47	_invis	ty, i will try
11:57	chouser	how wrong would it be for me to use lazy-seq just for its ability to synchronously produce and cache a single value?
11:58	chouser	the natural solution would involve manual locking and perhaps an atom.
12:00	ldp	fliebel: I still can't get it to work. :/
12:01	fliebel	I don't know how to help you… I just did what they said and after some trying it worked. I could pastebin the content of some files if you're in doubt.
12:01	chouser	oh! I should use a delay. that's better.
12:02	Chousuke	chouser: delays may be underused in Clojure :/
12:02	Chousuke	At least, it's all too easy to forget that clojure has them, because there are so many neater tools available.
12:03	ldp	fliebel: can I have your vim rc and the location to where you copied the vimclojure files?
12:03	chouser	bleh, I need a delay that takes args.
12:03	psykotic	well, they're heavily used through lazy-seq, but not so much manually
12:03	Chousuke	chouser: a memoized function? :/
12:03	psykotic	(doesn't lazy-seq call delay?)
12:04	Chousuke	~def lazy-seq
12:05	Chousuke	apparently not :P
12:05	chouser	no, I need to do work with args the first time its called, have the cached item avaible directly afterwards, but if the fn is called again just complain.
12:05	fliebel	ldp: I think so… but I'm not sure anymore where they are.
12:06	Chousuke	hm
12:07	Chousuke	,(let [a (#^{:once true} fn* [] (print "foo") 1) ] [(a) (a)])
12:07	clojurebot	[1 1]
12:07	clojurebot	foofoo
12:07	Chousuke	what does that actually do? :/
12:09	ldp	fliebel: ls ~/.vim perhaps? :/
12:10	fliebel	ldp: http://pastebin.com/mK72wMxW is my vimrc
12:11	fliebel	but there was more to it...
12:11	Chousuke	don't forget the local.properties file
12:12	ldp	fliebel: doesn't work. :/
12:12	Chousuke	how does it actually fail?
12:12	dakrone	I believe it should be let g:clj_highlight_builtins=1 ldp & fliebel
12:12	ldp	dakrone: Neither work
12:13	Chousuke	do you have the nailgun server running?
12:13	dakrone	okay, I'm coming into the conversation late, what's happening?
12:13	ldp	Chousuke: I don't want nailgun. :/
12:14	Chousuke	ldp: then you need to remove the clj_want_gorilla thing I think
12:14	Chousuke	it depends on nailgun
12:14	dakrone	ldp: what error are you getting?
12:14	ldp	dakrone: There's no error, it just doesn't work.
12:14	dakrone	can you describe what part doesn't work?
12:15	ldp	syntax highlighting and rainbow paran
12:15	ldp	let me check if there's something wrong with ~/.vim
12:16	dakrone	ldp: do you see the same output from this: http://pastie.org/875642
12:16	fliebel	ldp: did you add the file handler? I remember there was something to do berfore it enabled vim mode
12:16	dakrone	minus the eclim file
12:16	ldp	Yay, it works now.
12:16	ldp	I re-copied the files.
12:16	fliebel	what was wrong?
12:16	ldp	directory structure.
12:16	dakrone	must have been missing a file
12:16	ldp	Or that.
12:16	ldp	Rainbow parens are awesome. :)
12:17	Chousuke	:P
12:17	Chousuke	I don't even look at parens anymore
12:17	dakrone	they're quite useful for reading other people's code
12:17	ldp	Chousuke: I'm not used to parens, though.
12:17	ldp	Chousuke: braces, yes, but not parens. :p
12:17	ldp	Ruby has pampered me.
12:18	chouser	parens are critical in Clojure. huge difference in meaning between (foo) and foo
12:18	Chousuke	ldp: most of the time I don't need to care about where the parens are because paredit puts them in the right place. :) dakrone's point is valid though
12:18	dakrone	I was never really clear on what paredit does, does it just auto surround your code with parens?
12:19	Chousuke	dakrone: it maintains correct s-expression structure at all times
12:19	dakrone	oh okay
12:19	dakrone	there's no real good explanation of what it does for non-emacs users online that I could find
12:19	Chousuke	dakrone: unless you screw up somehow, it's impossible to write just "((" or "(let [foo))" in paredit
12:20	dakrone	Chousuke: what if you want to write ((func-that-returns-a-fn ...))?
12:20	The-Kenny	dakrone: that's no problem
12:20	Chousuke	you type ((func-that-returns-a-fn
12:20	Chousuke	and that's it.
12:21	The-Kenny	emacs insert a ) when you type a (
12:21	dakrone	okay, I thought you said it would prevent you from writing ((, or does it evaluate enough to know that it's a valid form?
12:21	Chousuke	the thing is that if you have ((foo)), you can't delete the )) before you've deleted foo
12:22	Chousuke	using only backspace that is. of course, there are more advanced s-expr manipulation commands
12:22	ldp	I just wanted to say, you guys are pretty awesome. :)
12:22	ldp	Clojure is going to be fun to learn.
12:22	Chousuke	for example, paredit has a command that allows you to move foo so that ((foo)) becomes (foo ())
12:23	miltondsilva	Chousuke: is there some tutorial that explains those commands?
12:23	Chousuke	http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html there's this at least
12:23	chouser	in standard vi, that command is dwhP
12:24	miltondsilva	yes but I have no idea how to interpet that :P
12:24	Chousuke	chouser: imagine foo is an entire form. now what do you do? :)
12:24	miltondsilva	oh forget it
12:25	miltondsilva	I can see there are keys and the examples are more sane... I read some other version that I couldn't understand
12:25	dakrone	chouser: uhh... delete-word move-left paste-word
12:25	dakrone	chouser: so essentially it brings you right back to where you are
12:25	chouser	(((foo bar baz))) --> ((foo bar baz)()) is d%hP
12:25	dakrone	oh wait, P will paste previously
12:25	chouser	dakrone: right
12:25	dakrone	so paste it to the left by one space
12:26	dakrone	I read it as dwhp
12:26	The-Kenny	enebo: Yeah, that too :P
12:26	chouser	my point is not that stock vim has 100% the convenience of paredit
12:27	chouser	but that stock vim is a 90% solution for so many situations, including editing of clojure code, that it's difficult to justify the effort required to replace it, just for that last 10% :-/
12:27	enebo	esj, The-Kenny: Yeah ^K is the shit...down with d$ :)
12:27	chouser	d$ == D
12:27	enebo	ah yeah
12:27	The-Kenny	enebo: In paredit, C-K is different to "delete to end of line"
12:28	dakrone	d$ == C
12:28	The-Kenny	In paredit, it kills sexps, not lines
12:28	enebo	heh...I joined this convo late with the accidental ping :)
12:28	esj	;)
12:28	enebo	I regularly use both vi and emacs...
12:29	enebo	but emacs is like some mother ship always orbiting my screen somewhere...vi is for quick and remote edits
12:29	Chousuke	heh, yeah
12:29	miltondsilva	emacs = O.S.
12:30	Chousuke	emacs is more like the JVM than an OS
12:30	Chousuke	it's a platform
12:30	replaca	enebo: you know about emacsclient, right?
12:30	Chousuke	for editing whatever editable things you can imagine
12:30	The-Kenny	Editing files in jar-files without manually extracting and re-packing is cool
12:31	miltondsilva	never thought of it that way, but now that you mentioned it it makes more sense
12:34	duncanm	i propose renaming BUT-LAST in clojure.contrib.string to something like DROP-RIGHT
12:35	The-Kenny	Emacs even has the power to create a powerful agendas, spreadsheets and full-featured gtd-setups out of text files :)
12:35	chouser	duncanm: there's drop-last also
12:35	duncanm	oh, is there?
12:36	duncanm	not in clojure.contrib.string, according to the docs
12:36	duncanm	drop-last is good too
12:36	chouser	,(drop-last 3 (range 10))
12:36	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6)
12:36	duncanm	yeah
12:37	duncanm	so s/but-last/drop-last/ and it'll be golden
12:38	ldp	can anyone explain references to me?
12:39	duncanm	ldp: did you read up on it first?
12:39	ldp	I did, and I don't really understand.
12:40	enebo	replaca: yeah
12:41	technomancy	boo... c.c.string has but-last and clojure.core has butlast. =(
12:41	duncanm	technomancy: eeew, that's even worse
12:41	duncanm	,(doc butlast)
12:41	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a seq of all but the last item in coll, in linear time"
12:41	duncanm	,(doc drop-last)
12:41	clojurebot	"([s] [n s]); Return a lazy sequence of all but the last n (default 1) items in coll"
12:41	technomancy	duncanm: what's worst is the similarities. butlast isn't a terrible name
12:41	chouser	butlast is eager
12:41	technomancy	easily discoverable with find-doc
12:42	duncanm	hmm
12:42	absalom	So I'm a bit confused about the various clojure emacs modes... I have ELPA. Which modes should I install? swank-clojure and clojure_mode? And swank-clojure relies on slime?
12:42	duncanm	the names i'm most familiar with are from SRFI-1 in Scheme, but I know that CL has its own set of names
12:42	technomancy	absalom: all you need is swank-clojure; see the swank-clojure readme on github for details.
12:42	absalom	ah, ok thanks
12:42	technomancy	the dependencies will get handled for you
13:01	crowb4r	, (doc drop-last)
13:01	clojurebot	"([s] [n s]); Return a lazy sequence of all but the last n (default 1) items in coll"
13:05	slyphon	technomancy: hey, do you know, if i want to turn on paredit mode in the slime-repl buffer, er, where do i hook that?
13:05	technomancy	slyphon: should be able to use slime-repl-mode-hook
13:05	slyphon	ah, ok
13:12	chouser	there's no way to test if a promise has already been delivered or not. oh well.
13:14	crowb4r	So, is there any good code completion for clojure. The api ref on the site is nice, but still.
13:14	slyphon	crowb4r: depends on what editor?
13:15	crowb4r	the la clojure module seems to work for intelij, but for say emacs or just anything else in general.
13:16	dnolen	crowb4r: if you're Emacs and Vim it's pretty easy to setup TextMate like snippets. slime autocomplete for symbols is pretty good.
13:24	abrenk	stuarthalloway: I just took a look at circumspec - nice!
13:25	abrenk	stuarthalloway: project.clj is missing ":namespaces [circumspec.AssertFailed]"
13:25	stuarthalloway	abrenk: thanks, hope it is useful
13:26	stuarthalloway	ah, I haven't been using lein compile
13:27	abrenk	perhaps it would be better to use a JDK provided exception?
13:27	abrenk	using circumspec in a clojure 1.1 project resulted in a VerifyError
13:28	stuarthalloway	abrenk: lein compile added to master
13:28	stuarthalloway	circumspec is targeting 1.2
13:28	stuarthalloway	it probably would not be hard to get it to work with 1.1 but I won't be doing it
13:29	abrenk	yeah, I solved that
13:29	abrenk	but being tied to a specific clojure version just because of AssertFailed is a pity
13:30	stuarthalloway	if that is the only issue just change your local project.clj to point to 1.1 and rebuild from scratch and you should be good
13:32	remleduff	I've got this simple function that I've written called files-in-dir, I have it at this gist: http://gist.github.com/336602. How would I go about making it a varargs so that it works for any number of directories passed?
13:34	dnolen	remleduff: (fn [arg1 arg2 & rest] ...)
13:35	remleduff	Yeah, I know that much, but actually using &rest is what I'm a little hazy on
13:36	wooby	remleduff, maybe something like http://gist.github.com/336610
13:36	wooby	remleduff, that has some issues (& rest conflicting with the other 2 arg definition), and i'm new to things myself
13:36	abrenk	stuarthalloway: already did that and it works, thanks. I just wanted to provoke some thoughts if perhaps it would be better to build the framework without the need for AOT compilation.
13:37	dnolen	remleduff: rest just packages up the remaining arguments into a list.
13:37	dnolen	rest -> & rest
13:38	stuarthalloway	abrenk: the issue is in run-test. If I use any preexisting exception to represent test assertions, then it complicates the logic for separating test failures from errors
13:43	chouser	that's got to be the one most reasonable driving force behind wanting to derive a named class from an abstract (non-interface) class
13:43	chouser	perhaps it would be worth a defexception in contrib that uses ASM directly so that no AOT is needed at all.
13:44	technomancy	+1
13:44	stuarthalloway	is there a way to add two type hints to the same name
13:44	technomancy	sorry, inc
13:44	stuarthalloway	and yes I have a real use case
13:44	chouser	stuarthalloway: what would that mean?
13:45	stuarthalloway	that the reference object implements two interfaces, of course
13:46	stuarthalloway	or is there a way to add the type hint to the call instead of the name.
13:46	chouser	yeah, add it to the call if you can
13:46	stuarthalloway	what does that look like?
13:46	chouser	the way compilation is done, clojure needs to know exactly one interface in order to emit the efficient calling code
13:47	chouser	(.foo #^Fooable x)
13:47	slyphon	technomancy: btw. i meant to tell you, i read the INTRO.md, good work :)
13:48	abrenk	stuarthalloway: ah, okay, I see the "catch" in run-tests. perhaps you could get away with a magic "circumspec: " string in Throwable's message?
13:49	technomancy	slyphon: great; thanks for the bulk of the text. I think it could use some more polishing wrt flow, but it's great to have either way.
13:49	stuarthalloway	chouser: right, hmm, I am doing something stupid
13:49	crowb4r	dnolen: Actually I use textmate on OS X, but the clojure bundle I found looked old and outdated.
13:49	slyphon	technomancy: yeah, i realised after writing it that you cover some of the maven-ness in another page
13:50	stuarthalloway	chouser: it doesn't appear I can add to the call unless I am calling through a symbol
13:50	dnolen	crowb4r: yeah tho it looks like people have done a lot of fork on some forks, would be cool if something new emerged. Would probably greatly increase adoption on OS X at least.
13:51	stuarthalloway	e.g. (.stuff #^SomeType (some expr)) doesn't seem to hint
13:51	chouser	huh ... couldn't callsite caching as is done for keywords work for reflective method calls too? instantly banishing all type hints?
13:51	chouser	stuarthalloway: really? that surprises me...
13:51	stuarthalloway	me too
13:52	crowb4r	stuarthalloway: I have your book, seems pretty good. I'm about 100 pages in.
13:52	stuarthalloway	crowb4r: thanks
13:52	chouser	stuarthalloway: I've got a case that works here. you must have something else going on.
13:52	stuarthalloway	chouser: yeah :-(
13:53	chouser	(defn foo [] 5) (.intValue #^Integer (foo)) ; no reflection warning
13:54	crowb4r	stuarthalloway: No problem, I might use it for the basis in a intro clojure presentation for some university computer club I'm in. I'm going to have to present it from a C# and C/++ perspective.
13:56	crowb4r	So, does anyone see a use of a clojure AIM (the instant messenger) lib. Or is the JAVA one good enough?
13:56	crowb4r	I don't know how much the language is pushing for it's own libs vs the already existing JAVA ones.
13:57	chouser	crowb4r: very close to "not at all" :-)
13:57	noidi	crowb4r, you might as well have written C/++/# ;)
13:57	noidi	sorry, C/C++ is a pet peeve of mine :)
13:57	stuarthalloway	chouser: figured it out
13:57	stuarthalloway	when extending a protocol, you get the type tag for free (expected)
13:57	chouser	ah, right.
13:57	crowb4r	noidi: I thought of that after I wrote it.
13:57	stuarthalloway	but you cannot override it (odd!)
13:58	chouser	eh? You weren't trying to use a protocol name as a hint, were you?
13:58	crowb4r	chouser: cool, then I might write a AIM lib in clojure.
13:59	Raynes	crowb4r: It's idiomatic to make direct use of Java APIs, but alternative Clojure ones are awesome. Convenience wrappers around hard-to-grok Java libraries are nice as well.
13:59	Raynes	Such as clj-apache-http.
14:00	crowb4r	I see that a lot of clojure projects and libs on git-hub. Is that the pretty much official place to put projects, libs etc?
14:00	stuarthalloway	chouser: no. what I got into was a corner case that will almost never hit anyone
14:00	crowb4r	Raynes: I have not looked at the clj-apache-http lib, what makes it nice?
14:00	Raynes	If you use Git (and you should ;) ), Github is the canonical hub.
14:00	stuarthalloway	RandomAccess is a signal interface
14:00	stuarthalloway	but the actual interface you want for hinting is List
14:00	Raynes	crowb4r: Because it's easy to use and looks pretty without dots. ;)
14:01	Raynes	Java I/O APIs are a bitch.
14:01	stuarthalloway	so extend-protocol's free behavior is not what you want in this (hopefully very rare) case
14:01	crowb4r	Raynes: I started using git actually when I wanted to start using clojure. svn and bzr were what I worked with.
14:02	Raynes	So, github is the place where most Clojure people put their projects.
14:03	noidi	there are also some projects on google code and bitbucket
14:04	stuarthalloway	in the clojure community we prefer git for its affinity for the reference model: unrelated commits are commutative :-)
14:04	Raynes	kotarak doesn't count.
14:04	noidi	stuarthalloway, isn't that true for hg as well?
14:05	stuarthalloway	noidi: yeah :-)
14:05	Raynes	Bitbucket is for bitrot.
14:05	Raynes	;)
14:05	technomancy	are there still active projects on google code?
14:05	duncanm	i like using hg
14:05	Raynes	But still, Github is the most used.
14:05	technomancy	jclouds still hosts their wiki there, but the code is moved to github
14:05	Raynes	technomancy: Doesn't CCW use it?
14:05	mabes	you can use hghub.com :)
14:06	Raynes	duncanm: Begon! EEEEEVEEEL OOONNNEEE!!!
14:07	duncanm	Raynes: why so religious?
14:07	Raynes	duncanm: I'm not. I'm just bored. :\|
14:07	duncanm	Raynes: i have to work on Windows, i find hg to work much better on Windows than git does
14:07	duncanm	i have git installed too, but i always have line-ending issues
14:08	duncanm	if git worked on windows, i could use git instead, i suppose
14:08	slyphon	argh, "windows"
14:08	duncanm	the people in my lab run windows, so that's what i use
14:09	slyphon	technomancy: ok, packaging n00b question, i have a .jks file i need to package up in my jar, how do i go about doing that?
14:09	duncanm	java (swing) runs well on windows, i find swing on OS X to be a lot less robust
14:09	technomancy	slyphon: what's a .jks file?
14:09	slyphon	java key store
14:09	technomancy	probably put it in resources/
14:09	slyphon	we have a self-signed cert for a SOAP endpoint i need to connect to
14:10	slyphon	technomancy: will that get bundled with the jar?
14:10	technomancy	ja
14:10	slyphon	wewt!
14:11	crowb4r	technomancy: You still doing telecommuting for work? Just wondered from the rudel post you did.
14:12	duncanm	i've been trying to learn more about Classloaders; I thought it's suppose to let me incrementally redefine things, but I've never seen that happen from Java
14:12	duncanm	with Clojure and SLIME, i get incremental redefinition working beautifully
14:14	technomancy	crowb4r: yeah, but we generally use screen now in order to make sharing repls easier
14:14	stuarthalloway	duncanm: classloaders allow redefinition, but not very incremental
14:17	duncanm	stuarthalloway: ah right, you wrote that book on Java, i have it ;-)
14:18	duncanm	stuarthalloway: do you know if that module work in jdk7 will make classloaders obsolete?
14:18	chouser	stuarthalloway: so, you want to extend a protocol to RandomAccess, but then implement methods of List
14:19	stuarthalloway	duncanm: I doubt obsolete, but honestly I don't follow it
14:20	dnolen	technomancy: any good resources on setting up collaborative coding in Emacs with screen?
14:21	technomancy	dnolen: just search for multiuser gnu screen... it's pretty simple; just a few screen configs you need to tweak
14:21	stuarthalloway	chouser: no longer wanting, now doing: http://gist.github.com/336674
14:21	dakrone	dnolen: basically all you need is :multiuser on, :acladd <username>, screen -x <screenid>
14:23	duncanm	stuarthalloway: neat
14:24	crowb4r	technomancy: Screen would seem like a good way to go for sharing. a little screen -x and working together then just opening a new window in the session then being able to work on your own, but still in the same session.
14:25	crowb4r	I do like having a gui emacs though. the mouse is nice sometimes.
14:26	remleduff	stuarthalloway: What is the "nil" block where you define your actual functions in Indexed?
14:27	remleduff	Oh, just making (chop nil) return nil?
14:27	stuarthalloway	remleduff: yes
14:28	remleduff	Or is that (chop nil 5) return 5?
14:30	dnolen	technomancy: dakrone: thx, I guess the issue with screen is that only one person can control the cursor at a time?
14:30	dakrone	no, you can both type, you'll be competing with each other
14:30	lancepantz	is it possible to set an enviornment var for a task in lein?
14:30	technomancy	dnolen: yeah, that's usually what you want when you're pairing over voip
14:30	technomancy	but rudel does not have that restriction
14:31	technomancy	lancepantz: the JVM doesn't support setting environment variables =(
14:31	lancepantz	ouch
14:32	lancepantz	i have a config who's location i've been reading in from the environment
14:32	lancepantz	i also run the app from a war, so that files location changes if i'm in jetty
14:32	lancepantz	how does one go about that?
14:32	remleduff	stuarthalloway: chop returns the thing with one element removed from the end?
14:33	stuarthalloway	should so do
14:33	dakrone	technomancy: what about adding pre and post commands for leiningen tasks? then you could run a shell script
14:34	technomancy	dakrone: that's on the pipeline. setting the environment variables in a shell won't have any effect on the JVM process though.
14:35	dakrone	oh yea, that's true
14:35	chouser	stuarthalloway: ah, I see. And it was hinting the arg in the method's arg vector that didn't work?
14:36	stuarthalloway	chouser: right
14:36	crowb4r	I think it's time to write a better clojure textmate bundle.
14:37	_invis	Hi guys. I use this guide http://technomancy.us/126 but after all I want to use some functions like that (setq swank-clojure-jar-path (concat clojure-home "clojure.jar"))
14:37	_invis	(setq swank-clojure-extra-classpaths (list
14:37	_invis	(concat clojure-home "./")
14:37	_invis	(concat clojure-home "swank-clojure/")
14:37	_invis	(concat clojure-home "clojure-contrib.jar")))
14:37	_invis	(require 'swank-clojure)
14:37	_invis	But ELPA dont use slime.el How I can fix that ?
14:38	lancepantz	technomancy: couldn't you just use export?
14:39	technomancy	lancepantz: that will only affect processes spawned by that shell session. maybe that's what you want? I dunno. but to affect clojure code you'd have to export before launching the JVM.
14:40	lancepantz	yeah that would be fine in my case
14:40	lancepantz	i think hooks are a good idea
14:41	lancepantz	second thing i've been trying to do, is there a correct way to do something like an ant exec tag in lein
14:42	technomancy	lancepantz: yeah, that is probably best done with lancet
14:42	technomancy	if you want a literal ant task to be run
14:42	lancepantz	know of any example projects that do that?
14:43	technomancy	just leiningen really
14:47	lancepantz	technomancy: so i basically just make a build.clj using lancet syntax, right?
14:49	technomancy	sort of... I don't know; I've never really used written ant builds; I've only ever called it through the Java API
14:49	technomancy	maybe they amount to the same thing
14:59	remleduff	Do arrays in general not play nice with collections?
14:59	remleduff	I've been trying to concat an array to a seq for a while, and it wasn't working the way I expected :)
15:00	chouser	,(concat '(1 2 3) (into-array [4 5 6]))
15:00	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6)
15:01	remleduff	Hmmph
15:02	remleduff	OK, thanks, I'll have to blame my own code again somewhere
15:02	chouser	feel free to paste somewhere a specific example that isn't behaving the way you expect.
15:03	remleduff	I think it's my expectation of the shape stuff is in not matching the reality
15:03	remleduff	I mean, "shape"
15:04	abrenk	Should I use "with-bindings" oder "binding" if I want to set prxml-indent? I can't really see the difference.
15:05	chouser	if you know the var you want to set when you're writing your code, use "binding"
15:07	etate	is there something like parenscript in clojure?
15:08	abrenk	chouser: thanks
15:10	remleduff	Is my problem that I can't concat two lazy seqs together, maybe?
15:11	remleduff	Don't think that's it either really
15:12	remleduff	,(concat (map inc [1 2 3]) (map inc [6 7 8]))
15:12	clojurebot	(2 3 4 7 8 9)
15:14	duncanm	hmm, if i have (([a b]) ([c d])), what do i do to get to ([a b] [c d]) ?
15:14	duncanm	i tried FLATTEN in clojure.contrib.seq, but it's too aggressive and got me to [a b c d]
15:14	duncanm	hmm
15:14	duncanm	maybe just first
15:15	dnolen	,(reduce concat '(([a b]) ([c d])))
15:15	clojurebot	([a b] [c d])
15:15	LauJensen	,(map first '(([a b]) ([c d])))
15:15	clojurebot	([a b] [c d])
15:15	dnolen	duncanm: ^
15:15	LauJensen	dnolen: ^
15:15	LauJensen	:)
15:22	Fossi	hi
15:22	Fossi	ah, now the ident works again
15:28	arohner	etate: http://github.com/arohner/scriptjure
15:39	dcnstrct	I'm just now experimenting with clojure's concurrency support and I'm trying to figure out what approach I should be taking. My program needs to do long running calculations on each item in a vector. Each thread just needs to process it's chunk and write it to a file so there is no shared state at all. What clojure concurrency primitives should I be looking at ?
15:40	dakrone	dcnstrct: you could check out pmap
15:40	dakrone	for parallel map
15:40	hiredman	dcnstrct: pmap + doall
15:41	dcnstrct	ah ha
15:41	dcnstrct	I knew there had to be something else I was missing because vars, refs, and agents are all about shared state and I don't have any
15:41	dcnstrct	I'll investigate pmap thnx guys
16:11	KirinDave	Are there any good examples of architecture of systems using clojure?
16:11	KirinDave	Like, specifically when it's right to use deftype and when it's better to just use data structures.
16:14	slyphon	gah
16:14	slyphon	has anyone else been bitten by the log4j maven stupidity?
16:14	slyphon	where it tries to grab javax.jms/jms which points to a url that returns a 301?
16:17	remleduff	How do I get the equivalent of String[].class ?
16:17	Chousuke	hmm
16:17	Chousuke	,(class (make-array String))
16:17	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$make-array
16:17	Chousuke	,(class (make-array String 1))
16:17	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
16:18	bozhidar	bingo
16:18	bozhidar	:-)
16:18	remleduff	Thanks :)
16:18	Chousuke	,Class/forName("[Ljava.lang.String;") ought to work too then
16:18	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: forName in class java.lang.Class
16:18	Chousuke	....
16:18	Chousuke	except with different syntax
16:19	remleduff	,(RT/forName "[Ljava.lang.String;")
16:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: RT
16:19	Chousuke	,(Class/forName "[Ljava.lang.String;") this
16:19	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
16:22	slyphon	technomancy\|away: leiningen appears to be ignoring my :exclusions on a dependency
16:25	StartsWithK	how can i alter var's root binding from java?
16:26	Chousuke	.alterRoot or something
16:26	Chousuke	on var objects
16:26	StartsWithK	it takse a IFn
16:26	StartsWithK	takes*
16:26	Chousuke	yes. so make one :)
16:26	StartsWithK	pff :)
16:27	hiredman	or use constantly from clojure.core
16:27	StartsWithK	ok, and how can i alter a var's root binding from java using reflection api :))
16:27	hiredman	making an IFn in java is easy
16:27	hiredman	LispReader.java has examples
16:28	chouser	StartsWithK: theVar.doReset(value)
16:28	defn	Is the WTFPL too cheeky of a license?
16:29	slyphon	this log4j maven insanity is making me a little cranky
16:31	bozhidar	slyphon: what log4j version are you trying to use? I have no problems with 1.2.12, but I remember that newer versions had some crazy deps
16:31	bozhidar	at least on central
16:31	slyphon	i was trying to use 1.2.15
16:32	slyphon	i guess i'll just use 1.2.12
16:32	slyphon	i don't need any 1.2.15 functionality or anything
16:32	slyphon	bozhidar: ah, works like a charm, thanks
16:32	bozhidar	you're welcome
16:33	StartsWithK	chouser, doReset, swapRoot and bindRoot only work if i have (def foo) but if foo is already bound, it just keeps its old value
16:33	bozhidar	in case of such problems it's generally a good solution to check the deps on http://mvnrepository.com/
16:33	StartsWithK	maybe i should unbind first
16:34	hiredman	StartsWithK: the binding shadows the root binding
16:34	bozhidar	that's how I found out that the log4j deps had changed between versions
16:35	StartsWithK	hiredman, but i need to do this from java, and i realy need to reset the value to new one
16:35	StartsWithK	and i need to use reflection..
16:36	chouser	StartsWithK: doReset seems to work for me on a var that already has a value
16:37	StartsWithK	chouser, tried it from a repl?
16:37	StartsWithK	it works from me too that way
16:37	chouser	StartsWithK: yes
16:37	raek	hrm, clojure fns implement Runnable, but Runnables cannot be used as functions?
16:38	StartsWithK	but in java, using reflection, and when invoked from different classloader it dosn't
16:39	hiredman	raek: you have to implement IFn to be called as a function
16:39	chouser	StartsWithK: why are you using reflection?
16:40	hiredman	possibly when invokedynamic becomes widespread, or if IFn becomes a protocol you might be able to extend that to Runnable
16:41	hiredman	raek: have you looked at the asm clojure generates for a function call?
16:41	raek	not yet... :)
16:41	StartsWithK	chouser, i'm calling a clojure from a class that is used as interface in two classloader namespaces and one of them dosn't have a clojure loaded
16:42	raek	I'm just playing around with JVM assembly
16:42	hiredman	raek: it's just a call to one of the invoke methods on IFn
16:42	raek	ah, I suspected so
16:42	LauJensen	Tom Crayford in here ?
16:42	remleduff	Are the clojure-1.2.0-main-SNAPSHOT.jar's on build.clojure.org broken? I can't get them to open in Winzip
16:42	StartsWithK	maybe i should split that to a interface+class, so i don't have to use a reflection..
16:42	hiredman	if you wanted to allow runnables you would have to insert a branch and each call site, or do some reflection
16:43	hiredman	s/and/at
16:43	raek	I see...
16:44	remleduff	Heh, google translate thinks that http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT/ is in Irish, and helpfully offers to translate it to english for me
16:44	hiredman	for a language that depends on function application, you want application to be as fast as possible
16:46	hiredman	which, when all is said and done, means having as little code to execute as possible
16:47	abrenk	technomancy: I just finished a leiningen plugin to create .project and .classpath for Eclipse / Counterclockwise
16:48	technomancy	abrenk: cool. does it not work to generate a project from the pom though?
16:48	abrenk	technomancy: What's the best way to get this integrated? fork on github? patch by email?
16:48	technomancy	abrenk: plugins don't need to get integrated
16:48	technomancy	just push it to clojars and everyone will be able to use it
16:48	hiredman	anyway, that is why runnables cannot be called as functions :)
16:49	abrenk	right, and then just add it as a dev-dependency...
16:50	StartsWithK	is it posible that my var's are already resolved at call sites, so i can't see the change?
16:51	chouser	StartsWithK: does the var have the word "clojure" in its namespace anywhere?
16:51	StartsWithK	chouser, no
16:52	dnolen	technomancy: have you looked at the unicode issues around jline? It looks like this has plagued jRuby as well.
16:52	chouser	StartsWithK: then no, I don't think that's possible
16:52	StartsWithK	chouser, ist something like (def properties (into {} (Stytem/getProperties)) and only function that will use it is (defn get-property [key] (get properties key))
16:53	StartsWithK	what i have is a config file that defines several components to be loaded, each in its own classloader with fresh clojure
16:54	StartsWithK	and one of the thing config has is 'system properties' for one such component
16:54	StartsWithK	but if the clojure code is not loaded this way, i want it to default to system properties
16:54	StartsWithK	so it can work with or without this component system
16:58	chouser	sorry, I don't yet understand how multiple classloaders interact with clojure globals like namespaces and vars.
17:00	StartsWithK	ok.. this one is weird, my properties is global to jvm instance
17:00	raek	hrm, which JVM instruction does downcasting?
17:00	raek	IFns always return Objects...
17:00	chouser	don't you just invoke the thing?
17:01	chouser	I thought you had to specify the specific method to call (including the class or interface) rather than "casting" as such.
17:01	chouser	I could be way off though.
17:01	hiredman	raek: the ASM library has a user guide on their website that has a nice list of instructions
17:02	remleduff	I can't seem to download any jar from build.clojure.org except for 1.2.0 and get a valid file
17:03	hiredman	raek: if you are trying to unbox a primitive you checkcast to the corresponding reference type and then call the method on that type
17:04	raek	hrm, figured it out...
17:04	raek	was another error
17:04	raek	I thought I needed a Object -> String cast
17:04	raek	but I was going to send it to printLn anyway... :)
17:06	StartsWithK	in 20080916 Release notes, there is "added use-context-classloader, which can be bound to true to cause the thread's context classloader to be the parent of the dynamic classloader used during load"
17:07	StartsWithK	will that stop clojure from using system classloader?
17:08	raek	hiredman: do you have a link to that ASM library's website?
17:09	raek	would be interesting reading
17:09	hiredman	~google java asm
17:09	clojurebot	First, out of 269000 results is:
17:09	clojurebot	ASM - Home Page
17:09	clojurebot	http://asm.ow2.org/
17:09	hiredman	asm is what clojure uses to generate bytecode
17:11	raek	ah, ok. it's name is simply "ASM"...
17:12	slyphon	gah, clojure.contrib.logging is not finding commons-logging
17:12	slyphon	dammit
17:15	hiredman	has anyone used Couverjure? does it work?
17:21	slyphon	hiredman: what's that do?
17:22	hiredman	objective-c bridge
17:22	slyphon	ooh
17:22	slyphon	ka-wwaaaaaa-zee
17:23	slyphon	what clojure-contrib am i supposed to be using if i'm using the 1.1.0 release of clojure?
17:23	slyphon	"1.0-SNAPSHOT"?
17:23	slyphon	there's no "1.1.0-SNAPSHOT"
17:28	patrkris	slyphon: just walked in - are you using leiningen?
17:29	slyphon	yeah
17:29	slyphon	isn't eveybody? ;)
17:30	patrkris	you could add the clojure release repository at http://build.clojure.org/releases and then specify 1.1.0 for both clojure and clojure-contrib
17:30	slyphon	hm
17:30	patrkris	slyphon: see how clojars.org does it here: DmbSnI0V
17:30	patrkris	ooops
17:30	slyphon	:)
17:30	patrkris	netbank password!!!!
17:30	patrkris	no
17:30	patrkris	:)
17:31	slyphon	hahahaha
17:31	patrkris	http://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/project.clj
17:31	slyphon	ah, right on
17:32	hiredman	you should use a map
17:32	hiredman	{"repo-name" "url"}
17:35	slyphon	gah
17:35	slyphon	lein compile doesn't seem to be working for me
17:37	slyphon	hrm
17:39	slyphon	shit
17:39	slyphon	lein compile is now lying and saying "all :namespaces already compiled"
17:40	zaphar_ps	hello all
17:40	slyphon	zaphar_ps: IN OR OUT! jeez! pick one!
17:40	zaphar_ps	slyphon: having issues with irc today
17:40	slyphon	heh, apparently! :)
17:40	zaphar_ps	think I got it fixed now though
17:40	zaphar_ps	so I can ask my leiningen related question now
17:40	zaphar_ps	:-)
17:41	zaphar_ps	does it have issues with non-standard compile and library paths?
17:41	zaphar_ps	cause it seems to be having issues for me right now
17:41	zaphar_ps	lein deps works
17:41	zaphar_ps	but lein compile, lein repl, and lein swank do not
17:43	technomancy	slyphon: that's just a case of bad output
17:44	technomancy	slyphon: you haven't told it which namespaces to compile
17:44	slyphon	hrm
17:44	technomancy	and compiling all by default is bad
17:44	slyphon	ah
17:44	technomancy	"not recommended" rather =)
17:44	slyphon	how do i handle a case where one of my .clj files is dependent on another?
17:44	slyphon	i.e. i have com.foo.MyException which com.foo.main depends on
17:45	zaphar_ps	hrmmm lein clean also doesn't seem to work
17:45	slyphon	or, should i be using a proxy for that or something
17:45	tela	Is it possible to force an STM retry? It's not in the API, but I'm curious to see how you can get a hold of RetryEx.
17:46	zaphar_ps	technomancy: any insights on my question :-)
17:46	hiredman	tela: any particular reason you want to force a retry?
17:47	zaphar_ps	hrmmm lein clean also does not work
17:48	zaphar_ps	this is rather annoying
17:48	tela	at the moment, I'm just trying to abuse the transaction machinery a bit. I want it to retry not just on transaction violations, but also when the values I'm seeking aren't right.
17:48	hiredman	tela: that does sound like abuse
17:49	hiredman	why not loop around your transaction?
17:50	tela	it could be done that way, but I figured as long as I have a mechanism which follows the same structure as a transaction, I might as well use the transaction machinery I'm already invoking.
17:50	Chousuke	don't refs support validators?
17:51	tela	Hm. That could be a point to sneak a force in.
17:51	tela	I'm trying to write a bayesian graphical model sampler. It's not that values aren't appropriate, it's that sometimes a Metropolis sampling step rejects and I want that rejection to backpropagate
17:51	Chousuke	(doc set-validator!)
17:51	clojurebot	"([iref validator-fn]); Sets the validator-fn for a var/ref/agent/atom. validator-fn must be nil or a side-effect-free fn of one argument, which will be passed the intended new state on any state change. If the new state is unacceptable, the validator-fn should return false or throw an exception. If the current state (root value if var) is not acceptable to the new validator, an exception will be thrown and the validator w
17:52	hiredman	tela: I do not recommend hijacking the mechanisms of the stm
17:52	Chousuke	I wonder what happens to a transaction if the validator fails
17:53	tela	hiredman: it's a stable thing in Haskell, that's the only reason I'm suggesting it
17:53	hiredman	for example, transactions will not be retried indefinitely
17:54	Chousuke	,(let [a (ref 1)] (set-validator! a pos?) (dosync (alter a dec)) @a)
17:54	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Invalid reference state
17:54	Chousuke	aha
17:54	tela	I know. That's fine. The loop I'd optionally write would want to bail eventually, too.
17:54	hiredman	clojure's stm is still sort of a closed box, but at some point you should be able to tie stm transactions into otehr things
17:55	ska2342	tela: I can't help thinking "Exception" if I read "backpropagate" ..
17:56	hiredman	:(
17:57	tela	ska2342: yeah, it'd be similar. I'd have to reimplement machinery to reset my refs manually though, I believe. Unless you can pass the ResetEx exception to run it through the STM machinery.
17:59	ska2342	tela: I may be totally mistaken, but backpropagation has a lot of stack-unwind semantics, I think. So, recursion (the real one) and exceptions come up in my mind. However, I just skimmed the messages here and did no deeper thinking...
18:00	ska2342	tela: unless I confuse backprop with backtracking right now, that is. ?
18:02	tela	ska2342: by backpropagation in this sense, I'm doing a calculation at a certain node in a tree. To perform it, you recurse to its children and do similar calculations, then use their new values to make that calculation. In some circumstances, it might reject and that rejection needs to happen in the children as well, reseting them all back to their initial values.
18:02	ska2342	hiredman: did I step into a lesson of yours uninvited? if so: sorry.
18:03	Drakeson	How can I define metadata (e.g., for sake of documentation) for each argument in the definition of a function?
18:04	hiredman	ska2342: oh, no, please, I'm sure you know more about the specifics than I, I just don't like exceptions as flow control
18:04	hiredman	Drakeson: you put that stuff in the functions docstring
18:04	hiredman	locals don't get metadata
18:04	Drakeson	that's not good enough, I want to process that
18:06	Drakeson	e.g. (:arglists (meta (resolve 'some-function))) gives me the argument list
18:06	Drakeson	now I want to get more than just their names.
18:06	kotarak	,(:arglists (meta (resolve 'defn)))
18:06	clojurebot	([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?])
18:07	kotarak	hmmm
18:07	ska2342	hiredman: I can't say I know any specifics, so I think I'd better be quiet now. My use of Exceptions as flow control is probably influenced by CLs signals and restarts and not very Java'ish.
18:08	zaphar_ps	exactly what does one have to do to get the j2ee libs on a mac?
18:09	zaphar_ps	javax.* namespaces seem to be missing
18:09	hiredman	javax.* is not the samething as j2ee
18:09	Drakeson	zaphar_ps: give us an example
18:09	Drakeson	that is, what is missing?
18:10	powr-toc	technically speaking, what is an s-expression? Is it just a list datastructure? Or is a literal vector or hashmap classed as an s-expression too?
18:10	Drakeson	the whole javax.* ?
18:10	zaphar_ps	hiredman: using compojure basic hello world won't compile says NoClassDefFoundError: javax/servlet/ServletOutputStream
18:10	zaphar_ps	so where do I get j2ee from?
18:10	hiredman	zaphar_ps: you don't need j2ee
18:10	zaphar_ps	what do I need then?
18:10	hiredman	you just need to have the servlet stuff on your classpath
18:11	hiredman	it should come with compojure
18:11	zaphar_ps	the compojure jar is on the class path I thought
18:11	hiredman	zaphar_ps: yes, but there are a bunch of other jars compojure depends on
18:12	hiredman	if you built compojure from source they should be in the libs/ directory of the source tree
18:12	Drakeson	zaphar_ps: you probably need jetty, servlet-api, some commons-* stuff ..., you can get them from clojars
18:12	zaphar_ps	I did not I used lein with the clojars dependency that hiredman uploaded
18:13	hiredman	:\|
18:13	hiredman	that was a mistake
18:13	zaphar_ps	ahhh
18:13	zaphar_ps	ok
18:13	zaphar_ps	is there a clojars upload that I can use or do I need to build from source
18:14	Drakeson	there is one.
18:14	hiredman	zaphar_ps: if you search clojars for compojure I would pick anyone that I didn't upload and try again
18:14	zaphar_ps	:-)
18:14	zaphar_ps	ahh ok then
18:14	Drakeson	zaphar_ps: [compojure "0.3.2"]
18:14	hiredman	ato is most likely a good bet
18:15	Drakeson	assuming you are using lein
18:15	zaphar_ps	Drakeson: I am
18:16	zaphar_ps	ahhh that looks better :-)
18:16	zaphar_ps	downloading much more stuff
18:17	zaphar_ps	and we have compiled it :-)
18:25	dcnstrct	do you guys bend to Java's will and use camelCase for all the variables in your programs ? Someone who had never seen clojure before looked at my code and asked me why half of my variables were-like-this but most of the method calls wereLikeThis
18:25	powr-toc	Does anyone here know what an sexpression is, specfically?
18:25	powr-toc	in Clojure as opposed to Lisp
18:26	dcnstrct	he said "why not just use camel case for all your variables if that's what java is using... after all this language is supposed to mix nicely with java..
18:26	powr-toc	dcnstrct: No, absolutely not. Use foo-bar style for clojure code, and camelCaseForJavaMethods... It helps visually highlight when you're hitting java, and probably dealing with state
18:27	dcnstrct	I scoffed at him, but now I'm starting to wonder.
18:28	dcnstrct	ouuhhh good point.. state is supposed to stick out... it's a feature!
18:29	dcnstrct	clojure doesn't force you to wrap it in an ugly monad to make it stick out instead you just seeTheCamel
18:29	powr-toc	dcnstrct: Also, it helps for knowing where to look for docs...
18:30	powr-toc	Like wise for ClassNames etc...
18:30	powr-toc	leave java syntax for java
18:31	powr-toc	I mean java-style (not syntax)
18:31	dcnstrct	yeah I suppose one day we'll have so many nice clojure libs that a clojure programmer won't even need to see that many camels.
18:57	hiredman	remleduff: it's based on arity
18:58	hiredman	the compiler looks at the (foo 1 2) and compiles to, in java, foo.invoke(1,2);
18:58	remleduff	How can that work in the case of apply though?
18:59	hiredman	apply doesn't use invoke
18:59	alexyk	technomancy\|away: are you away?
18:59	hiredman	~def apply
19:00	alexyk	may be others would know: when doing lein deps in a directory with user.clj, where that has (use 'x) and x is to be downloaded by lein deps, lein chokes!
19:00	alexyk	is there a simple way to make lein ignore user.clj?
19:01	hiredman	no, because clojure loads user.clj, not lein
19:02	alexyk	hiredman: yeah, but I was still wondering for some hack.
19:03	hiredman	there is no way, unless you want to try and avoid loading user.clj all together
19:03	KirinDave	So, if I use deftype to replace a defstruct, will it still play nice in refs and such?
19:03	KirinDave	Is there an increased cost to using those things in refs and whatnot?
19:04	alexyk	man, an \|away person leaves! ghosts!
19:07	alexyk	how do you abbreviate: (use 'long-x) (alias 'x 'long-x)
19:08	Chousuke	(use '[foo :as bar])
19:08	KirinDave	What's the point of :as in (use ...)?
19:08	alexyk	kk
19:08	Chousuke	though you should use require :P
19:08	KirinDave	yeah seems pointless.
19:09	KirinDave	(use '[foo :as bar]) ; In which we lie in a way we are sure to regret later, for no other purpose than to prove we can.
19:09	alexyk	so what's the current clojure version? :)
19:09	alexyk	which folks are using?
19:10	Chousuke	I suppose you should target 1.1 if you don't need features from master
19:10	alexyk	Chousuke: and the master is 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT?
19:12	Chousuke	yeah
19:14	alexyk	so the world moves slowly
19:14	alexyk	good
19:18	polypus	i've got a defmulti, and i'd like one of my methods to convert any list or sequence into a vector. vectors should go through unchanged, and maps should not be handled. how should i proceed?
19:33	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/337053
19:33	hiredman	it's really the little things that make me love clojure
19:36	TalkingHead	Hi all, noob question
19:37	TalkingHead	I'm running through a sequence like so: (doseq [cell row]
19:37	TalkingHead	and then getting the contents of each cell: (let [c (.getContents cell)]
19:37	TalkingHead	how do I put all these values back into a Vector or list?
19:38	hamza	use map instead? (map #(.getContents %) row)
19:39	hamza	will return a sequence
19:43	arohner	TalkingHead: or you can use 'for' as well
19:50	dcnstrct	is there a way to get an append version of clojure.contrib.duck-streams/write-lines ?
19:50	dcnstrct	if not then what is the most idiomatic way to append a line to a file ?
19:50	dcnstrct	if I use append-spit how do I add the newline ?
19:51	TalkingHead	arohner: How would you use the 'for' macro? I was looking at the documentation, but not comprehending yet.
19:52	arohner	TalkingHead: it looks exactly like your doseq call, except the body must have only one expression. It returns a seq of the return value of each call in the body
19:52	arohner	(for [cell row] (.getContents c))
19:55	zaphar_ps	argh
19:55	zaphar_ps	http://pastie.org/876452
19:55	zaphar_ps	why oh why would this error keep happening
19:56	zaphar_ps	it obviously compiles the class
19:56	zaphar_ps	but then says it's not there
19:57	hiredman	why are you referencing the class?
19:57	hiredman	can you pastebin start_this.clj?
19:57	zaphar_ps	http://pastie.org/876455
19:57	zaphar_ps	there ya go
19:58	dcnstrct	so there is no nice way to append a line to a file is there ? Does this mean if I write an append-write-lines function I can possibly get my code into contrib ?
19:58	hiredman	- are not valid in java class names to being with
19:59	zaphar_ps	hrmmm
19:59	zaphar_ps	ok
19:59	hiredman	I don't know what your file names are
19:59	TalkingHead	arohner: thx, think I got it
19:59	zaphar_ps	they use underscores
19:59	hiredman	but clojure translates from - to _ when going from namespaces to files
19:59	zaphar_ps	that I new
20:00	zaphar_ps	but can I still use the dashes in the clojure code?
20:00	zaphar_ps	I can rename the stuff just fine
20:01	hiredman	zaphar_ps: yes
20:01	hiredman	what is this "servlet" on line 10?
20:02	zaphar_ps	I thought it was part of compojure?
20:02	zaphar_ps	I'm following some tutorials or trying to anyway
20:02	hiredman	have you looked at any compojure examples?
20:03	zaphar_ps	hrmmm renaming the classes without dashes worked
20:03	hiredman	I have not written a lot of compojure but I don't think that is right
20:03	zaphar_ps	hiredman: I'm following a compojure example right now
20:03	zaphar_ps	with slight modifications
20:04	hiredman	ok
20:07	zaphar_ps	well I get the servlet to launch now.
20:07	zaphar_ps	but I've got a whole host of other stuff to work through now :-)
20:10	Drakeson	I don't know if this has been reported ... lein deps copies stuff and then sits there apparently forever.
20:11	Drakeson	reverting the last two commits gets back to a usable state
21:16	Bira	Hello! I'm trying to install swank-clojure on my emacs 23, using ELPA as described in the documentation. But after it downloads the jars, I get an exception saying it couldn't find clojure/main.
21:16	Bira	(when I try to run M-x slime)
21:16	Bira	Is there something I'm doing wrong?
21:22	danlarkin	Hi there Bira :)
21:24	danlarkin	Bira: nothing comes to mind, I recommend waiting for technomancy
21:25	scgilardi	Hi Bira, I don't know why it's not working, but that symptom means it can't find the clojure jar in the classpath.
21:25	Bira	Hey there :).
21:27	Bira	Well, I had installed clojure through ClojureX a while ago, but I'm not sure it's influencing the process here.
21:27	Bira	swank-clojure downloaded clojure.jar, clojure-contrib, and its own jar into ~/.swank-clojure
21:27	scgilardi	does the contents of the inferior-lisp buffer show the classpath or any more detail?
21:28	Bira	One moment.
21:29	Bira	http://pastie.org/876544
21:29	Bira	That's the content of inferior-lisp, and the names of the jars downloaded by swank-clojure
21:29	Bira	They look a little strange, I think/
21:35	scgilardi	I just did M-X slime for the first time on my laptop, it downloaded those exact files, and then worked. Are you running emacs 23? You might also try moving your .emacs and .emacs.d out of the way (if you have them) and pointing .emacs.d (using a symlink) to a git clone of phil's emacs-starter-kit.
21:39	Bira	scgilardi: My .emacs.d is a clone of phil's emacs-starter-kit :).
21:40	clowbar	is it possible to get clojure 1.2 to work with slime?
21:40	Bira	I did make a few customizations, though, so I'll try to move those aside.
21:40	zaphar_ps	clowbar: is there some reason you think it wouldn't?
21:40	scgilardi	Bira: ok. are you on linux? ubuntu?
21:42	bmason	isn't there a macro that takes a sequence and unwraps it into an existing sequence?
21:42	bmason	e.g. [:div (unwrap [[:foo] [:bar]])] -> [:div :foo :bar]
21:42	Bira	gentoo. Emacs 23.
21:43	clowbar	zaphar_ps: I'm new to slime
21:44	slyphon	what? for has a :let modifier
21:45	Bira	Hm... same thing on a clean emacs-starter-kit. I guess I'm going to have to dig a little further.
21:56	brandonw	i can't seem to find the docs for it (if it exists), but is there a way to use a namespace foo.bar.baz so that you can do 'baz/a' and 'baz/b' but not 'a' or 'b'?
22:01	bmason	brandonw: like :rename? http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/refer
22:03	bmason	brandonw: this page is great for general namespace/use documentation: http://clojure.org/namespaces
22:03	scgilardi	(require '[foo.bar.baz :as baz]) or, from within an ns form, (:require [foo.bar.baz :as baz])
22:03	brandonw	okay, thanks
22:04	brandonw	that works perfectly
22:04	scgilardi	you're welcome
22:17	brandonw	okay that was good
22:17	brandonw	that finally forced me to read the documentation for refer/require/use carefully, instead of just using use :)
22:47	dakrone	anyone done any work on redefing REPL stuff to print in color before?
22:56	remleduff	What causes clojure.main to get loaded? I see clojure.core getting loaded in RT#doInit, but haven't found clojure.main anywhere
22:56	arohner	remleduff: my guess would be the command line
22:57	sattvik	dakrone: I don't know of any such thing, but that would be really neat.
22:57	arohner	java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main
22:57	arohner	dakrone: I imagine it's fairly straight-forward. Just make the repl output the right characters
22:57	dakrone	sattvik: would be really awesome if you could colorize output based on return class and such
22:57	dakrone	like people do with IRB
22:58	hiredman	remleduff: I would make sure you are looking at a recent checkout of the source
22:58	hiredman	I seem to recall doIt just having a comment saying "you don't need to call this" in it
22:59	remleduff	That's true hiredman, but I'm trying to reflectively call RT in a separate classLoader
22:59	hiredman	you don't call RT
22:59	hiredman	you just load the class
22:59	slyphon	in soviet russia, RT calls YOU
22:59	hiredman	it has a static initializer block
22:59	slyphon	sorry
23:00	remleduff	I need to call RT.var("clojure.main", "repl")
23:00	remleduff	And then invoke that
23:00	hiredman	just do it
23:00	remleduff	It'll get loaded in the wrong classloader
23:01	hiredman	((IFn)RT.var(...)).invoke(...)
23:01	remleduff	I have say, a clojure 1.1 classloader that is started by lein, and I've created a new one with trunk clojure in the classpath
23:01	remleduff	So I have to (Class.forName "clojure.lang.RT" true newClassLoader) to get the right RT
23:02	hiredman	are you sure you are loading a new RT?
23:02	remleduff	Yeah, I have it working if I call the method clojure.main.main
23:03	remleduff	But I want to call a clojure function instead
23:08	slyphon	hrmf
23:09	slyphon	if i have [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 3}] and i want to transform that to be {1 {:a 1 :b 2} 2 {:a 2 :b 3}}, er, how do i do that in a non-stupid way?
23:11	hiredman	,(apply hash-map (interleave (iterate inc 1) [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 3}]))
23:11	clojurebot	{1 {:a 1, :b 2}, 2 {:a 2, :b 3}}
23:12	slyphon	well
23:12	remleduff	Woohoo!
23:12	slyphon	it's more that i want to create an index of the values of :a
23:18	hiredman	,(reduce (fn [b {:keys [a] :as m}] (assoc b a m)) {} [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 3}])
23:18	clojurebot	{2 {:a 2, :b 3}, 1 {:a 1, :b 2}}
23:19	hiredman	,(reduce #(assoc % (:a %2) %2) {} [{:a 1 :b 2} {:a 2 :b 3}])
23:19	clojurebot	{2 {:a 2, :b 3}, 1 {:a 1, :b 2}}
23:20	slyphon	brilliant
23:21	slyphon	hiredman: winnar!
23:21	slyphon	thanks