#clojure – 2010-02-09

2010-02-09

00:00	JonSmith	so it would be something like (get array value) or something?
00:01	arohner	I'm trying to look up the javascript syntax for it
00:01	arohner	I know it's possible in scriptjure, I don't remember how
00:02	ninjudd	i noticed that it isn't efficient to get the size of a PersistentQueue, because counting the number of elements in the front list requires O(n) time
00:02	JonSmith	okay
00:02	JonSmith	i will do some research
00:02	JonSmith	just wanted to know it was possible :-)
00:03	JonSmith	is a really nice library btw
00:03	arohner	thanks
00:03	arohner	:-)
00:03	ninjudd	i can submit a patch to fix it
00:11	JonSmith	ah
00:12	JonSmith	i think the solution is to just use dot notation
00:12	arohner	JonSmith: how?
00:14	JonSmith	arrays are just like objects bc objects are associative arrays
00:14	JonSmith	so i think if i do
00:14	JonSmith	array.index
00:14	JonSmith	should be similar to array[index]
00:15	arohner	maybe this doesn't work after all
00:15	arohner	if you don't figure it out, file a bug
00:19	JonSmith	okay
00:22	hiredman	,(counted? clojure.lang.PersistentQueue)
00:22	clojurebot	false
01:02	wdouglas	incanter's chrono is so nice <3
01:11	DeusExPikachu	I'm getting some weird behavior trying to modify swank.clj in lein-swank. I modifed it, built it with lein jar, installed it to local repo with lein install, then made a new project to test it, added it as a dev-dependency, lein deps, and lein repl'd the new project, when I enter the namespace and (doc swank), I get the old definition, even though the modified lein-swank jar exists (with modifications) in lib and it is
01:11	DeusExPikachu	in the class path, what's going on?
01:21	wdouglas	is the old one in the classpath too? Might you have another swank around in ~/.swank-clojure?
01:24	DeusExPikachu	well at least in lib, theres only the modified lein-swank, I'm checking the whole class path, its a pretty big list
01:25	DeusExPikachu	crap, it is in there... hmm seems like order is important in this case
01:26	DeusExPikachu	is there a way to specify which definition you would like to be used?
01:42	TheBusby	so is it still possible to write scripts with clojure by having #!/usr/bin/clj at the top of the script? Clojure 1.1.0 doesn't seem to like the old clojure.lang.Script syntax...
01:42	TheBusby	er, I mean #!/usr/bin/env clj
01:43	TheBusby	nmind, answered my own question must supply "-" as a CL arg...
01:44	hiredman	don't use Script
01:44	hiredman	clojure.main replaces Script and Repl
01:44	TheBusby	main with what options though?
01:45	hiredman	as far as I know there is no canonical script for starting clojure, so just saying 'clj' doesn't tell anyone anything about how you are starting clojure
01:45	TheBusby	I mean using a bash script called clj which sets up the classpath and executes the java command
01:46	TheBusby	evidently the switch to clojure.main has changed the execution syntax
01:47	TheBusby	it appears to be $JAVA_EXEC clojure.main $1 $@
01:47	hiredman	TheBusby: sure, but as I said, since I have no idea what is in your clj script or where you got it, just saying 'clj' doesn't tell me a lot
01:48	hiredman	passing $1 and $@ together like that is weird
01:48	hiredman	$@ contains $!
01:48	hiredman	er
01:48	hiredman	$1
01:49	TheBusby	hiredman: you're correct. I assumed most people were using something similiar http://pastie.org/815870
01:49	TheBusby	$1 so that java reads the script file
01:49	TheBusby	$@ so that clojure can see the script name it came from
01:49	TheBusby	argv[0] = program name
01:49	TheBusby	not necessary?
01:51	hiredman	hmmm
01:52	hiredman	,(doc file)
01:52	clojurebot	"; The path of the file being evaluated, as a String. Evaluates to nil when there is no file, eg. in the REPL."
01:53	TheBusby	I guess it depends if you want it as file for (first command-line-args)
01:54	TheBusby	/for/or/
01:54	hiredman	well you asked if it is necessary
01:56	TheBusby	yep, thank you
01:58	TheBusby	any thoughs on the best way to spawn off one million http-agents efficiently?
01:59	TheBusby	was hoping simply using map would leverage chunked seq's to do 20-30 at a time...
02:01	hiredman	,(doc seque)
02:01	clojurebot	"([s] [n-or-q s]); Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer."
02:03	TheBusby	excellent, I can't wait until I get more of these tools under my belt
02:11	rrc7cz	assuming I have a seq like ["one" "two" "three" "four" "five"], is there a fn in core or contrib for (split-at "three" coll)?
02:11	hiredman	,(split-at (partial = "three") ["one" "two" "three" "four" "five"])
02:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$partial__5034$fn__5036 cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
02:12	hiredman	oh
02:12	hiredman	right
02:12	hiredman	,(split-with (partial = "three") ["one" "two" "three" "four" "five"])
02:12	clojurebot	[() ("one" "two" "three" "four" "five")]
02:12	hiredman	,(split-with (partial not= "three") ["one" "two" "three" "four" "five"])
02:12	clojurebot	[("one" "two") ("three" "four" "five")]
02:15	rrc7cz	thanks hiredman
04:15	triyo	I'm in the process of learning defmacro handeling in Clojure. I wrote this trivial snippet: http://gist.github.com/299036 ... All it does is check if object is in the list of give choices.
04:16	triyo	macroexpand expands the macro to: (let* [insym__2791__auto__ 1] (clojure.core/or (clojure.core/= insym__2790__auto__ 1) (clojure.core/= insym__2790__auto__ 2) (clojure.core/= insym__2790__auto__ 3)))
04:16	triyo	its obvious in the expantion whats wrong
04:17	triyo	The insym is not being picked up from the let binding.
04:18	triyo	is it because binding of insym is quoted and hence delayed for runtime. Should it be bound outside the back-quoting?
04:19	hiredman	because of the unsyntax-quote and re-syntax-quote
04:19	hiredman	auto gensyms are only the same inside the same instance of syntax-quote
04:20	triyo	Ah, that explains the different auto id
04:23	triyo	hiredman: thanks for your reply. How would you structure my macro to overcome the multiple syntax quote issue and still have the gensymed binding?
04:24	triyo	if you dont mind assisting. Just trying to get my head around it. thx in advance.
04:24	hiredman	I wouldn't write a macro
04:25	hiredman	,(some #{1} [1 2 3])
04:25	clojurebot	1
04:25	hiredman	,(some #{4} [1 2 3])
04:25	clojurebot	nil
04:25	LauJensen	hehe
04:25	LauJensen	hiredman: the guy is trying to learn HOW to write Macros, not WHEN
04:26	triyo	haha very funny
04:26	triyo	Thanks LauJensen
04:27	hiredman	the least amount of change would be an manual gensym
04:28	triyo	oh and I called my macro now in? as its more of a predicate. (And I know you could probably do this few ways event without use of macros, but I'm trying to learn Clojure macros a bit)
04:28	hiredman	,(cons 'or (for [x (range 10)] (list '= x 5)))
04:28	clojurebot	(or (= 0 5) (= 1 5) (= 2 5) (= 3 5) (= 4 5) (= 5 5) (= 6 5) (= 7 5) (= 8 5) (= 9 5))
04:28	hiredman	triyo: writing that as a macro is a bad idea
04:29	hiredman	(ins? 1 (range 10)) ; will be false
04:30	triyo	hiredman: sure because it would not expand the range in the map.. I see
04:31	esj	Lau: do you have jline running in your emacs slime ?
04:31	AWizzArd	Moin
04:32	esj	AWizz: wotcha
04:32	LauJensen	hejs, no
04:32	LauJensen	-h
04:32	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Hola
04:33	esj	Lau: so what do you use for command history ?
04:34	esj	i'm having to scroll up an down in the repl provided by (swank-clojure-project) and its become tiresome
04:34	esj	been randomly poking at swank and slime .el files, but to no great sucess
04:34	LauJensen	C-up C-down
04:35	esj	where are those bindings defined ?
04:35	esj	i'm on OSX, so C-arrow is globally bound to switch desktops
04:36	LauJensen	I don't have access to Emacs right now, so I'm weak and withered, I cant help you... sorry....
04:36	LauJensen	:)
04:36	ordnungswidrig	esj: you mean C=Command or C=Control?
04:37	triyo	hiredman: manual gensym worked. http://gist.github.com/299036 . I know what you mean by why its a bad idea. thx again
04:37	LauJensen	I think my brain has transferred all knowledge of Emacs to my fingers - I really struggle to tell you what the keys, let alone the bindings are, but ask me again tonight, or check out my .emacs on my blog
04:37	esj	Lau: no problem
04:37	esj	thanks for your help
04:37	esj	by fiddling i've found the meta-p and meta-n do the trick too.... emacs!
04:37	esj	ordnugnswidrig: yeah.
04:37	esj	C=Control
04:39	LauJensen	C-h k and C-h b are great helpers
04:41	esj	annoyingly those throw: wrong type argument: symbolp, (quote normal)
04:41	esj	thanks, what you told me will get me going though
04:44	LauJensen	Haven't seen those
04:47	esj	OK, I found the functions in slime-repl.el
04:47	esj	slime-repl-next-input and friends
04:48	AWizzArd	Hi fatrow
04:48	LauJensen	Maybe we should hurry up and port Emacs to Clojure
04:48	Chousuke	:P
04:55	esj	Lau: Genius !
04:59	LauJensen	I'll create 'cmacs' on Github straight away :)
04:59	LauJensen	or 'clabango-macs', thats _even_ more catchy
04:59	AWizzArd	I have a macro which expands into defn. I support doc-string? and attr-map? as defn does. I merge them (if they are provided) into a map 'meta-data'. How do I attach this to my defn? `(defn #^~meta-data ~name ...) won't work because the reader macro changes my form before the macro can touch it.
05:00	Chousuke	`(defn ~(with-meta name blah) ...)
05:01	Chousuke	ie. you just need a symbol with the appropriate metadata as the name.
05:01	esj	emacj
05:01	AWizzArd	Chousuke: oki
05:02	dsop	is there a web framework for clojure?
05:03	AWizzArd	dsop: Compojure
05:04	LauJensen	dsop: Check out my blog for some examples using compojure, http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/blog
05:04	AWizzArd	g
05:04	LauJensen	Just trying to help out
05:05	dsop	LauJensen: just a joke. thanks, I'll already browsing it :)
05:22	gstratton	I'd be really grateful if someone could explain what's happening here to me: http://paste.lisp.org/display/94620
05:24	triyo	is there a case form in Clojure like in CL?
05:24	hiredman	' is quote, not syntax quote
05:25	gstratton	hiredman: But why does my function behave differently from + when passed as an argument?
05:26	hiredman	what version of clojure?
05:27	gstratton	1.1
05:27	LauJensen	~source +
05:27	LauJensen	triyo: You're looking for cond, condp, cond*
05:27	simplechat	heyyas
05:27	AWizzArd	triyo: did you try case?
05:27	simplechat	is there any sane install method?
05:27	simplechat	that doesn't involve pulling from git/etc?
05:28	triyo	AWizzArd: no case form....however found clojure.contrib.fcase
05:28	triyo	has case function
05:28	triyo	case macro I mean in clojure.contrib.fcase
05:28	AWizzArd	triyo: then you have an older version of Clojure.
05:28	LauJensen	simplechat: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojure-101-getting-clojure-slime-installed/
05:28	triyo	1.1
05:28	AWizzArd	If you wish you can download a freshly compiled dev version here: http://build.clojure.org/
05:29	AWizzArd	clojure-version ==> {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 2, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
05:29	AWizzArd	,clojure-version
05:29	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
05:29	hiredman	gstratton: if you look at the definition of + you see it defines an inlinable version of the function, which is what I think causes the difference
05:29	triyo	hehe thats ver I'm running like clojurebot
05:30	triyo	I can switch latest
05:30	gstratton	hiredman: Right, thanks very much. I've spent hours trying to figure that out!
05:30	AWizzArd	triyo: I am always working with the newest development version. This may be 'dangerous', as it might break something. Anyway, you always get the newest features that way :)
05:30	AWizzArd	triyo: and also you can support development this way, by filing bug reports.
05:31	JayM	there are 666 people watching clojure on github
05:31	simplechat	lol
05:31	triyo	I'm experiment a lot at the mo in the Clojure space, so wouldn't hurt me to switch to master from sourcse
05:31	simplechat	is it considered better to use the git versions of clojure?
05:31	krumholt_	gstratton, i don't have the problem you described with clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
05:31	simplechat	or are those unstable?
05:32	AWizzArd	simplechat: you will find a freshly compiled git checkout here: http://build.clojure.org/
05:32	simplechat	is that what i want tho?
05:32	AWizzArd	you can compile it yourself, you will need Maven tho and thus download 88% of the internet for compilation ^^
05:32	AWizzArd	simplechat: i think you want that
05:32	simplechat	AWizzArd, atm i have the ubuntu package clojure
05:32	simplechat	but i'm unsure if i want to stick with that or grab a newer version
05:33	simplechat	or if the newer versions are unstable/etc?
05:33	AWizzArd	I suggest you to just get the newest thing
05:33	Chousuke	simplechat: isn't the ubuntu package 1.0? That's relatively ancient already :P
05:33	AWizzArd	They are more unstable, in theory. In practice however they are not really breaking code regularily.
05:33	simplechat	so i grab clojure.jar
05:33	AWizzArd	ja
05:33	simplechat	this might be very stupid, but where do i put it?
05:33	AWizzArd	Oh, Ubuntu placed your current clojure.jar somewhere...
05:34	simplechat	yeah
05:34	simplechat	just overwrite it?
05:34	AWizzArd	simplechat: do you use emacs? Enclojure? VimClojure?
05:34	Chousuke	simplechat: in the classpath. which is specified when you start the JVM
05:34	Chousuke	simplechat: so the location does not really matter
05:34	simplechat	AWizzArd, i'm aiming to just use vim/etc
05:34	simplechat	Chousuke, but i already have one version
05:34	Chousuke	simplechat: ~/.java/ or something might be okay
05:34	simplechat	in /usr/share/java/clojure.jar
05:35	Chousuke	simplechat: you can have many. don't overwrite anything the package manager has installed.
05:35	AWizzArd	If you know Vim well then try VimClojure, and place the downloaded clojure.jar where Chousuke suggested. And edit your VimClojure config file so that it points there.
05:35	simplechat	ok
05:35	AWizzArd	(Maybe you even want to use Synaptics and uninstall Clojure from Ubuntu)
05:35	simplechat	so i then need to vimclojure?
05:35	AWizzArd	Not need. But as a Vim user this is suggested.
05:35	AWizzArd	It will help you.
05:35	simplechat	mmmm
05:36	simplechat	yeah, i wouldn't want ubuntu changing the packages out from under me
05:36	gstratton	krumholt_: Hmm, me neither. Is using the 1.2 branch recommended at the moment? I assumed 1.1 was least likely to have unexpected problems
05:36	simplechat	how would i test clojure-contrib is working?
05:36	krumholt_	gstratton, i don't know i use 1.2 and it seems very stable
05:39	simplechat	should base64 be a defined symbol?
05:40	simplechat	yeah
05:40	simplechat	ok
05:40	simplechat	i really don't get this, lol
05:43	scottj	What do you guys prefer, a config file or environment variables for telling a webapp whether it's in production or development mode?
05:44	yuuki	Is emacs the most popular editor for clojure?
05:44	scottj	yuuki: yeah, but quite a few ppl use java ide's or vim
05:44	simplechat	but yeah, how would i test that clojure-contrib is working?
05:44	simplechat	scottj, eclipse?
05:45	yuuki	java ide, meaning jedit?
05:45	tomoj	I think someone said earlier that there was a poll and about half used emacs, the other half anything else
05:45	scottj	java ide meaning netbeans, intellij, eclipse, probably in that order of popularity
05:45	tomoj	some vim as well
05:45	tomoj	oh you said that
05:47	yuuki	I'm starting to like vim for programming. I think it will help to learn to manipulate windows and buffers better
05:47	scottj	simplechat: start a repl w/ contrib on the classpath and then (use 'clojure.contrib.somenamespace) and run a function in it?
05:47	underdev	i'm using emacs, and am very impressed, but the netbeans plugin is very impressive
05:48	underdev	as well
05:48	underdev	it will code complete on the java as well as the clojure
05:50	underdev	ive used vim for about 10 years, so emacs is a big adjustment
05:50	scottj	underdev: using vipermode?
05:50	yuuki	is there a big cost to mutating references?
05:50	underdev	but too many times its been vital that i could connect to my editor remotely
05:50	underdev	like TOO MANY TIMES
05:50	neotyk	I switched for clojure from Vim to emacs as well
05:50	yuuki	vim doesn't support that?
05:51	underdev	no, it totally does
05:51	underdev	so does emacs
05:51	underdev	but emacs is so lisp-centric
05:51	neotyk	It's just better supported by emacs
05:52	yuuki	key chords make me sad
05:52	yuuki	as a dvorak typist
05:52	underdev	scottj: no, i'm really taking the plunge
05:52	neotyk	and it's so nice to get away from java ide for a while
05:52	triyo	AWizzArd: do you run 1.2.0-master-snapshot with swank? Swank-clojure-project doesnt fire up a repl if running 1.2.0. If I switch back to Clojure 1.1.0, all works fine. Is there a later Swank version that works?
05:52	underdev	yeah, viper mode is always an option
05:53	underdev	and if i had to guess, i'll probably end up using it
05:53	underdev	but i figured i'ld give emacs qua emacs a shot
05:53	underdev	but, you know, yesterday i was editing my .emacs with vim
05:53	yuuki	my vi keys are scattered all about, because I'm doing them in dvorak, but I've gotten used to them
05:54	underdev	yuuki, you are a total fucking geek :)
05:54	yuuki	haha
05:55	yuuki	if I was a total geek I would've configured my vi keys to be more sane
05:55	ordnungswidrig	yuuki: you totally missing the point with emacs :-)
05:55	ordnungswidrig	arg
05:55	ordnungswidrig	s/emacs/vi/
05:55	yuuki	haha
05:55	AWizzArd	triyo: I run indeed 1.2.0 in swank. But: I use an old version of SLIME.
05:55	yuuki	yes, my navigation keys are c, v, j and p, so it takes two hands to move around
05:56	yuuki	Several weeks of nethack cemented my navigation skills :p
05:56	ordnungswidrig	I added (test-ns ns) to my source file and now the tests are run when I compile/load with SLIME. I like that.
05:56	ordnungswidrig	However it reports NO_SOURCE_FILE:1 for every error :-(
05:56	AWizzArd	triyo: you can see however if this helps you: http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
05:56	underdev	yuuki: thats awesome
05:56	yuuki	haha
05:56	underdev	yuuki: you fucking geek
05:57	underdev	yuuki: i want to follow you on twitter
05:57	yuuki	haha
05:57	yuuki	I don't really have a twitter account
05:57	underdev	rats, oh well
05:57	yuuki	haha
05:58	yuuki	Some day!
05:58	underdev	lemme know
05:58	yuuki	I am thinking about using clojure to port a language to the JVM
05:58	underdev	tcl? tell me its tcl,
05:58	ordnungswidrig	I imagine using vi with dvorak is like typing on a rot13 keyboard.
05:59	underdev	LOL
05:59	yuuki	The language has mutable data structures, and I'm wondering if that makes clojure a bad choice for implementation
05:59	ordnungswidrig	apl
05:59	ordnungswidrig	?
05:59	yuuki	factor :p
05:59	ordnungswidrig	duck
05:59	ordnungswidrig	yuuki: not so bad
05:59	yuuki	I would basically have to use references, for each mutable object, right?
05:59	triyo	AWizzArd: strange, I'm not seing anything obvious in log. Settings look fine. I have a leiningen generated project layout that suite swank-clojure-project. And I'm running ordnungswidrig slime/slime-repl 20091016
06:01	ordnungswidrig	triyo: um, you're running me?
06:01	triyo	lol, sorry ordnungswidrig
06:01	triyo	that might be the cause of my problem
06:02	ordnungswidrig	hehe. I just checked but I did not for slime on github :-)
06:03	AWizzArd	I always used jochus swank-clojure. But one day he stopped updating his repo.
06:03	AWizzArd	A bit later slime changed something. I think they used symbol names that are not valid in Clojure or something like that.
06:04	triyo	technomancy seems to have taken over...thats the one I've been using
06:04	AWizzArd	And now some elpa stuff is needed, and technomancy made updates, etc.
06:04	yuuki	I'm thinking the best way to go is to immutable-ize the language
06:05	LauJensen	hiredman: Are you writing the scripts for CSI ? I just heard their discussion about finding some criminal where one of them says "I'll create a GUI using Visual Basic to track the IP address", lol :)
06:05	underdev	lolololol
06:05	underdev	yeah, do that
06:06	hiredman	LauJensen: huh?
06:06	LauJensen	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU
06:06	LauJensen	Just sounded like something you would say :)
06:07	hiredman	2009:Apr:09:12:30:42 hiredman : I still hate writing guis, and avoid it
06:08	LauJensen	oooh thats right, you said that back in April - I just forgot
06:09	hiredman	I just don't see how anything I've said here would lead you to belive I would say anything like that
06:09	triyo	AWizzArd: I got it to work. it was actually slightly incompatible swank-clojure version. (Was a snapshot 1.1 ver, so I switch to 1.1.0 final) + contrib 1.2.0)
06:10	LauJensen	hiredman: Just yanking your chain - Have you dissoc'ed your sense of humor?
06:12	AWizzArd	triyo: what swank-clojure do you use? technomancy's stuff? Do you also use ELPA? What version of SLIME?
06:13	triyo	slime 20091016 - swank-clojure -> lein project: :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.1.0"]]
06:14	triyo	works fine now
06:14	ordnungswidrig	clojure-test-mode is acutally nice
06:14	triyo	I had the older snapshot of swank-clojure when it didnt work with clojure 1.2.0
06:15	neotyk	anyone here planing to join tomorrows AMS.clj meetup?
06:16	underdev	what's ams?
06:16	neotyk	amsterdam
06:16	neotyk	http://bit.ly/agptrb
06:16	tomoj	wish I could
06:18	LauJensen	This is fun - I was just looking at todays referrers on my blog, and this IP pops up, running from port 8080, so I follow the link and its someone running the Reddit Clone :D
06:20	neotyk	very nice Lau, best source of clojure lessons on the market lately
06:20	LauJensen	What is your machine I connected to ? :)
06:21	underdev	Yeah Lau, i guess i have you to blame for getting interested in clojure
06:22	LauJensen	Really? Man thats great to hear!
06:22	neotyk	you do very good publicity for Clojure, I like it a lot :)
06:23	triyo	LauJensen: you started a reddit clone war few days ago. Congrats.
06:23	LauJensen	Great - Thanks guys :) I must say it's been a lot of fun starting a blog - also a good way to remember things
06:23	LauJensen	triyo: Yea I noticed - I loved the QBasic version - I'm thinking of further extending the example, with user registration, search and whatever I can think of
06:24	neotyk	natural would be to give it some clojureql love :P
06:25	AWizzArd	triyo: yeah, I use slime from 26. October
06:25	LauJensen	I know - But you have to be a little patient as we're rolling Frontend 2.0 - Its going to be great, but there's a lot of working involved - hopefully after a couple of weeks it'll be ready
06:26	neotyk	no wories
06:26	triyo	LauJensen: I think it'd be a good idea to show off how clojure can handle some of the tougher parts of the system. For istance, reddit has some fancy ways of handeling the newly generated link identifiers, etc.
06:26	neotyk	till that time i might be ready with really async http client
06:26	neotyk	one that doesn't user thread per request approach
06:28	triyo	LauJensen: reddit guys would be jealous as they loved CL but decided to switch to python when they had some deployment prod issues
06:29	LauJensen	triyo: You accidentally said that they used CL twice, but I forgive you :)
06:29	LauJensen	What exactly to you mean by new link identifiers ?
06:31	ordnungswidrig	,{0}
06:31	clojurebot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1
06:31	triyo	They don't reference URL submissions by autogen ID of any sort, they create some other form of unique identifiers. I remember looking at the source about 2 years ago. You see them in the urls http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/azkrk/you_requested_him_and_we_got_him_ask_noam_chomsky/ the "azkrk" part
06:32	ordnungswidrig	Is there a ticket for this? Or for this kind of misleading error message?
06:32	triyo	The code behind that looked pretty cool
06:32	LauJensen	triyo: that ID is looks very trivial - You'll notice from the scraper that did for the Hadoop job, that those random characters are repeated for every 20 posts
06:34	LauJensen	similar to (for [page pages id (range (count posts-on-page))]) - but instead of ints they use something random
06:34	ordnungswidrig	isn't it a autogen id in base35 encoding?
06:37	triyo	Hmm, ok you might be right, I remember looking at the source and some parts were very impressive... The good thing is that reddit is open sourced so you can see some interesting parts and how they wen about implementing them and perhaps find better ways to approach those parts. Your first tutorial is cool but that is the really trivial part in many languages today. You need Part two, where the real gems lie :)
06:38	LauJensen	Or a small series perhaps - You can make this stuff as big as you like :)
06:39	LauJensen	Generally the feedback I get, is that the Compojure docs are leaving people wanting, so I might as well try to fill the gap
06:40	triyo	I agree on the last point
06:42	triyo	LauJensen: Have you ever had a look at Django project docs? In my opinion, best I have seen in years. (Constantly updated and in informative in great depth. Their commits require full working support docs)
06:42	triyo	Would be amazing to see something like that in Clojure space.
06:43	LauJensen	No I haven't, but it sounds interesting
06:43	tomoj	seems like there isn't much to document about new compojure
06:43	tomoj	only one source file (!)
06:43	tomoj	+ clout I guess
06:43	tomoj	then you need ring docs too, maybe?
06:43	LauJensen	http://compojure.org/docs
06:44	LauJensen	tomoj, you don't need to know ring to know compojure
06:44	triyo	LauJensen:here is the example: http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.1/ (note the 1.1 in the url. All previous and beta versions can also be referenced)
06:45	LauJensen	Wow
06:45	LauJensen	I wonder where they find the time
06:45	triyo	LauJensen: the forst part is amazing, well tested, tutorials
06:45	triyo	then rest is very detailed docs for all parts of the framework
06:46	tomoj	LauJensen: well, what's there to know about compojure, then?
06:46	tomoj	not much?
06:47	tomoj	I just mean that django docs may be great, but I don't think we have enough to write about :)
06:48	LauJensen	hehe, I get your point
06:48	tomoj	I hope that someday there will be lots of separate projects which can easily be plugged in
06:48	tomoj	for authentication, file uploads, etc
06:49	powr-toc	Is there an existing predicate equivalent to (complement nil?)
06:49	tomoj	most of that kind of stuff can just be plugged in by decorating with middleware, I'd bet
06:49	LauJensen	There was an attempt at porting Django at one point by danlarking, don't know what happend to it
06:50	triyo	tomoj: thats the thing. Getting people to build "plugins". Compojure has no pluggable well defined concept of what these plugins are. I know middleware is the answer, but I think there needs to be some more abstract way to register these plugins "components"
06:50	tomoj	I guess a lot of the rails plugins are model-layer stuff
06:51	tomoj	which is not compojure's concern
06:51	raph_amiard	test
06:53	tomoj	personally I kind of like the idea of just requiring the with-* function and decorating
06:54	tomoj	I think one of the goals of compojure's design was not to be opinionated like rails
06:54	tomoj	we can't make any assumptions and so can only provide functions which people can use
06:55	triyo	tomoj: sure but I think there is a need to encourage people in developing on top of compojure. And I think thats the key.
06:55	tomoj	ah, yeah
06:56	tomoj	what are some of the important things we're missing
06:56	tomoj	so far I've missed authlogic and paperclip from the rails world
06:57	powr-toc	Is that a predicate that tests for truthiness?
06:57	tomoj	no, it tests for nil-ness
06:57	LauJensen	hehe
06:57	LauJensen	truthiness? :)
06:58	tomoj	er, non-nil-ness
06:58	tomoj	there is no need for a predicate that tests for truthiness
06:58	LauJensen	(contains? truthiness? "clojure is cool" )
06:58	LauJensen	true
06:58	tomoj	by definition
06:59	underdev	truthy and falsy are now official words- too useful to not be considered proper english
06:59	LauJensen	truthy
06:59	powr-toc	I want to filter nils... At the moment I have (filter (complement nil?) [nil 1 2 3 nil]) is that idiomatic?
06:59	tomoj	(remove nil? ..)
06:59	powr-toc	ahh cool
07:00	tomoj	false will remain
07:00	LauJensen	,(filter identity [1 2 nil 3])
07:00	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
07:00	tomoj	filter identity gets rid of false as well
07:00	powr-toc	sweet
07:01	powr-toc	which of those options is more idiomatic?
07:01	underdev	language is descriptive, not prescriptive, and anyone who say different ain't right!
07:01	LauJensen	depends on what you want
07:02	LauJensen	if its just nils you want removed, (remove nil?) makes the most sense
07:02	tomoj	I like (remove nil? ..) when you don't care about false, because it is so readable
07:02	powr-toc	yeah makes sense
07:03	tomoj	are there functions for conjunction/disjunction of predicates?
07:03	powr-toc	in this case (remove nil? ..) conveys intent better... but I quite like (filter identity ...)
07:03	tomoj	I always forget
07:04	tomoj	like (remove (disjunct nil? odd?) ..) to get rid of nils and odds
07:05	LauJensen	(remove #(or (nil? %) (odd? %)) )
07:05	LauJensen	:)
07:05	tomoj	eek points
07:05	tomoj	I think I saw that there will be a section in the new book about point-free clojure
07:05	tomoj	:)
07:07	LauJensen	Meikel already blogged about it :)
07:07	LauJensen	If you want point-free, use Haskell or better yet, J
07:07	LauJensen	http://kotka.de/blog/2009/12/Pointfree_vs_Pointless.html
07:08	tomoj	but those aren't lisps :(
07:09	tomoj	I agree though, clojure isn't quite right for it
07:09	LauJensen	tomoj - I'm really hammered on time these days, but I would so so so looove to plug the J.dll into Clojure - Would be incredible
07:10	LauJensen	(defn average [coll] (j "# % +/"))
07:10	tomoj	that looks... odd
07:11	LauJensen	oops, I meant "+/ % #" ofc
07:11	AWizzArd	rhickey: is there an easy way to overwrite the public :arglists metadata for a defmacro or defn? I have a function and want its arglist to look like that of your defn, but internally (like your defn) have a different arglist.
07:11	LauJensen	+/ = sum, % = divide, # = count
07:12	AWizzArd	I could do it as you did in core.clj, but that means to repeat most of the defn code, and it feels very lowlevel.
07:13	rhickey	AWizzArd: you could alter-meta! on the var
07:14	AWizzArd	ok, good idea, thanks
07:16	tomoj	full disclojure might be the clojurecasts I was looking for
07:18	underdev	tomoj: yeah, they're great
07:32	AWizzArd	rhickey: btw, the alter-meta! doc string could mention symbols and fns too.
07:32	rhickey	AWizzArd: no, it can't, since they don't have alterable metadata
07:33	rhickey	reference types have alterable metadata, value types have value semantics for metadata (i.e. with-meta)
07:37	triyo	I am translating an example form OnLisp book into clojure (or at least trying to). CL has a case for like this http://gist.github.com/299163 I see the clojure 1.2.0 has a case form too, how does it work? Doesnt seem to be the same as CL ver.
07:38	cemerick	triyo: my CL is really rusty, but you're probably looking for condp
07:39	tomoj	case would work here, wouldn't it?
07:40	tomoj	since we're looking for literal symbols
07:40	Chousuke	(doc case)
07:40	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.fcase/case;[[test-value & clauses]]; Like cond, but test-value is compared against the value of each test expression with =. If they are equal, executes the \"body\" expression. Optional last expression is executed if none of the test expressions match."
07:41	Chousuke	hm. not the right one :P
07:41	triyo	clojurebod runnign 1.1.0
07:41	triyo	case only checked in 1.2.0
07:41	triyo	I checked ealrier
07:41	cemerick	I've not used case yet, but I didn't think it matched on symbols.
07:42	cemerick	I feel like I'm overusing bound vars lately -- e.g. offering 6 vars to be bound for a 10-fn API, instead of having each fn take a map arg or something.
07:42	triyo	cemerick: I tried now and it doesnt match on symbols, unless i'm doing it wrong
07:42	tomoj	matches on any literals, no?
07:42	tomoj	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4609
07:42	tomoj	warning, big file
07:43	cemerick	tomoj: sure seems like it shrug
07:43	Chousuke	looks like it does.
07:45	tomoj	(case 'and (and 3)) gives 3
07:45	Chousuke	in CL?
07:45	tomoj	no, clojure
07:45	tomoj	though, strange
07:45	tomoj	(case 'or (and 3) (or 4)) gives an error
07:46	tomoj	while (case 'and (and 3) (or 4)) returns 3
07:46	Chousuke	you have too many parentheses
07:46	tomoj	oh, I see
07:46	tomoj	(case 'or and 3 or 4)
07:46	tomoj	so, triyo, I think you just need to get rid of some parens
07:47	yuuki	should clojure-contrib be in the clojure directory?
07:47	ordnungswidrig	re
07:47	tomoj	and then instead of "t default-value" at the end, just "default-value"
07:47	Chousuke	yuuki: doesn't matter.
07:47	tomoj	e.g. (case 'foo and 3 or 4 5) gives 5
07:47	triyo	hehe, thank worked. I kept trying with the parans
07:48	rhickey	,(case 'b 'a 1 'b 2 'c 3)
07:48	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: case in this context
07:48	tomoj	I guess in general clojure tries to get rid of them when they're unnecessary
07:48	tomoj	clojurebot doesn't have it yet :(
07:48	rhickey	case should work with ant values with stable hashcodes
07:48	rhickey	any
07:49	cemerick	tomoj: same with cond, etc. Each case is likely to be on its own line anyway, so no need for the noise.
07:49	tomoj	yeah
07:49	triyo	rhickey: how do I specify the "default" case if none is met?
07:49	tomoj	e.g. (case 'foo and 3 or 4 5) gives 5
07:50	rhickey	triyo: "A single default expression can follow the clauses"
07:51	AWizzArd	rhickey: I could update the :arglists metadata for foo, my (defmacro foo ...). Is that a reference type?
07:51	triyo	I see, thanks.
07:51	AWizzArd	rhickey: nevermind.. "var".. ok
07:52	Chousuke	AWizzArd: I don't know what you even asked :P
07:52	triyo	A lot less parens than CL ver of case
07:52	Chousuke	triyo: you can do away with many parens through implicit grouping
07:53	triyo	Chousuke: what is implicit grouping?
07:53	Chousuke	eg. (let [a b, c d, e f] ...)
07:54	Chousuke	rather than (let ((a b) (c d) (e f)) ...)
07:54	triyo	Oh sure, I see what you mean
07:54	AWizzArd	Chousuke: it was some minutes earlier, about alter-meta!. I thought its docstring could need an update, but it doesn't. It already mentions vars, and a var's meta-data I updated. So, all fine :)
07:55	Chousuke	It does mean that you need to use do if you want multiple expressions evaluated on a condition, but that's pretty rare.
07:59	yuuki	maven is complaining about the maven-resources-plugin
08:02	tomoj	I wonder if applying constraints to functions like middleware would be a good idea
08:05	AWizzArd	tomoj: in Compojure?
08:12	tomoj	AWizzArd: I meant, copy compojure's middleware decoration idea
08:12	tomoj	but use it for applying constraints
08:13	tomoj	so (defn some-fun []) (add-constraint some-fun some-constraint)
08:13	tomoj	something like that
08:13	tomoj	except need a better way to do it so that you can apply specific preds to specific args, maybe
08:14	LauJensen	tomoj: You mean a more flexible post/pre args thing ?
08:14	tomoj	yeah, basically
08:14	tomoj	I just watched the full disclojure about constraints and he mentioned the idea of separating the constraints from the functions that use them so that the constraints can be reused
08:15	tomoj	but I think I like the idea of applying them using something compojure.control.decorate style
08:15	LauJensen	Can't recall ever having the need
08:15	tomoj	yeah, heh, I've never used constraints at all
08:15	yuuki	does clojure-contrib contain its own version of clojure.jar?
08:15	tomoj	maybe I should try to use the feature before I start dreaming up abstractions around it
08:16	AWizzArd	tomoj: you can always add constraints after you defined a function. Functional programming allows you to decorate fns with other fns (such as constraints).
08:16	tomoj	that sounds great if :pre/:post is just a shortcut for that
08:16	tomoj	and whatever it uses behind the scenes is reusable
08:18	cemerick	yuuki: no, they need to be obtained separately
08:18	yuuki	Hmm
08:18	yuuki	I did mvn package and it builded successfully without reference to clojure.jar
08:19	cemerick	that's because maven retrieves contrib's dependendies automatically
08:19	cemerick	I thought you were referring to the downloadable jars.
08:19	yuuki	Ah I see...
08:20	yuuki	So when I did maven package, clojure itself was downloaded and built into clojure-contrib.jar?
08:20	cemerick	No, clojure is not built into clojure contrib.
08:21	cemerick	They are both going to be needed by any apps you use them with downstream.
08:21	yuuki	I guess I don't understand how contrib compiled and was tested without clojure itself
08:22	yuuki	hmm...
08:22	cemerick	maven downloads the version of clojure that is required by the version of contrib you have the source for
08:22	rhickey	yuuki: maven grabbed a release of clojure for you
08:22	yuuki	Ah, I see... thanks!
08:23	tomoj	I hope a full disclojure about datatypes/protocols is on the way
08:23	triyo	How do I check what the first character of a given symbol is?
08:24	tomoj	symbols are named
08:24	tomoj	,(name 'foo)
08:24	clojurebot	"foo"
08:24	cemerick	an uberjar profile should probably be added to contrib's pom
08:24	tomoj	,(first (name 'foo))
08:24	clojurebot	\f
08:25	chouser	cemerick: that would be cool. a single jar with clojure and contrib, all ready to go...
08:25	triyo	tomoj: nice and easy, thx
08:26	cemerick	chouser: super-trivial to do. I'd do it right now, but I'm nowhere near contrib's head.
08:28	cemerick	chouser: you can badger SS about it when he gets in :-) Point at http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-shade-plugin/
08:28	chouser	"shade"?
08:29	cemerick	hey, I didn't name it :-/
08:29	cemerick	There's no collisions, so it should be as simple as adding a profile with the shade plugin bound to the package phase.
08:45	ordnungswidrig	hmm, clojure-test-mode higlighting collides with my rainbow parens. any ideas?
08:46	ordnungswidrig	toggling rainbow-parens after running the test fixes this. Can I hook this in somehow?
08:46	rhickey	has autodoc fallen behind on contrib?
08:46	rhickey	I tried grabbing the latest docs from github, but are from Jan 14
08:47	chouser	I'm not sure the docs were ever being auto-updated.
08:47	rhickey	ah
08:47	AWizzArd	rhickey: is there something like swap! for with-local-vars? I found only var-set so far.
08:49	rhickey	chouser: I got the impression they were from http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/msg/836e9381f87a6515
08:49	AWizzArd	(var-set myvar (inc @myvar)) vs. (var-update inc)
08:49	cemerick	AWizzArd: swap! has semantics specific to atoms.
08:49	AWizzArd	yes
08:50	rhickey	AWizzArd: there can't be any contention for a settable var
08:50	rhickey	thread-local
08:50	AWizzArd	yes, I know
08:50	AWizzArd	just like c++;
08:50	rhickey	so, var-set is it
08:50	AWizzArd	vs c = c+1
08:50	rhickey	not like c++
08:50	AWizzArd	syntactic sugar
08:51	rhickey	bleh - why are you using local-vars?
08:51	rhickey	should be ugly and painful
08:51	AWizzArd	They are used as in-transaction value to update a DB.
08:51	rhickey	yikes
08:51	AWizzArd	The DB itself is in an atom. So I can not use swap! or reset! during the transaction, because readers outside the transaction could see that.
08:52	LauJensen	clojurebot: code-review is <rhickey> yikes
08:52	clojurebot	Ok.
08:52	LauJensen	:)
08:52	AWizzArd	rhickey: this is what chouser and I came up with as currently best solution.
08:52	rhickey	AWizzArd: ok - leave me out of it :)
08:52	cemerick	This sounds like those scary CLOS-based orthogonal persistence thingamabobs.
08:52	AWizzArd	rhickey: well, you could offer a "plugin" to dosync.
08:53	rhickey	AWizzArd: not trivially
08:53	AWizzArd	A mechanism that would allow me to do io when the transaction has in principle completed, but is not visible right now.
08:53	rhickey	also, bleh, very fragile
08:53	AWizzArd	So multiple dosyncs won't repeat the io (writing the transaction log to disk) and block each other out.
08:53	rhickey	this is why they invented transaction cooridinators
08:53	LauJensen	AWizzArd: You seem to have totally forsaken functional programming
08:53	AWizzArd	And the io part could still prevent the transaction from going live if the write to disk fails.
08:54	AWizzArd	LauJensen: nope, but there currently is no obvious mechanism for that purpose in Clojure.
08:55	LauJensen	Is the code public somewhere?
08:55	AWizzArd	not yet, but in some weeks
08:55	AWizzArd	LauJensen: when you have a dosync and want to write data to the disk just before the dosync ends.
08:56	AWizzArd	If 5 threads are running this dosync, then they can block each other, because writing to disk is so slow.
08:56	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Isn't it the case, that futures spawned within transactions only launch if the transaction is successful ?
08:56	cemerick	AWizzArd: IO within a transaction is a sure path to disaster. This is why io! exists.
08:56	AWizzArd	And if I need a lock around dosync anyway to prevent that I can use the faster atoms, as chouser suggested.
08:56	tomoj	ordnungswidrig: after advice on whatever function from clojure-test-mode you're using?
08:57	LauJensen	AWizzArd: I remember doing some trick with threads once, when I wanted to log something from the transaction
08:57	AWizzArd	cemerick: but io within the transaction is a requirement
08:57	cemerick	AWizzArd: transactions can, by definition, be repeated. You've got it backwards.
08:58	AWizzArd	nope :)
08:58	rhickey	http://java.sun.com/javaee/technologies/jta/index.jsp
08:58	cemerick	There may be some STM system that can support semantics like that, but clojure's cannot as-is.
08:58	AWizzArd	cemerick: I am talking about my db transactions here.
08:58	tomoj	is it just a lot of work to add on? or is it fundamentally wrong for clojure's stm?
08:58	AWizzArd	Inside such a db transaction, before it completes, a log entry must be written to disk. Otherwise the consistency is in danger.
08:59	cemerick	tomoj: There's nothing wrong with it, it's just not a database-in-a-box.
08:59	AWizzArd	rhickey: I will have a look at this.
09:00	rhickey	cemerick: it is a database in a box. It's not 2 databases in a box :)
09:00	cemerick	rhickey: ah, sure. I guess I should have said it's not a durable database-in-a-box. :-)
09:00	rhickey	right
09:00	AWizzArd	And I want to make it durable.
09:00	AWizzArd	So, that is why I need the io.
09:01	rhickey	AWizzArd: no, you want 2 databases in sync
09:01	LauJensen	rhickey: isn't it true that either agents or futures are only dispatched once from transactions?
09:01	rhickey	LauJensen: agent sends are held until commit, yes
09:01	AWizzArd	rhickey: well, you can say that what I have in RAM is one, and the other is what I have on disk.
09:01	LauJensen	Great - Then AWizzArd should be able to leverage that
09:01	AWizzArd	In that case I have two dbs.
09:02	rhickey	LauJensen: no, because the agent action can fail, in which case he wants to roll back the STM work
09:02	AWizzArd	LauJensen: I first wanted to use agents. But they can.. yeah, what rhickey said.
09:02	LauJensen	ah
09:02	AWizzArd	I discussed this with chouser some days ago.
09:03	rhickey	AWizzArd: these are old problems, that's why there is two-phase commit etc
09:03	rhickey	any homemade solution is going to have problems
09:03	AWizzArd	While this JTA stuff looks interesting, it seems to be very heavy compared to my homemade solution.
09:03	rhickey	until you reinvent two-phase commit
09:04	LauJensen	rhickey: two-phase commit ?
09:04	AWizzArd	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_commit_protocol
09:04	rhickey	AWizzArd: but once Clojure's STM is JTA enabled, it will sync with just about anything Java
09:04	rhickey	dbs, message queues etc
09:04	AWizzArd	well, as soon this is true I will happily use Clojures STM for that purpose.
09:04	cemerick	hah, I didn't realize that was on the drawing board.
09:04	tomoj	oh, great, so this is on the way?
09:04	rhickey	not on the drawing board
09:05	tomoj	well, at least it's feasible? :)
09:05	AWizzArd	rhickey: I just need a solution that works now. And what I have is very lightweight and I am under the impression that it will work perfectly fine.
09:05	rhickey	because I'm not sure you can truly participate in distributed transactions without a pre-commit log of some sort
09:05	AWizzArd	So, it's no problem to use var-set, I can add syntactic sugar myself.
09:06	rhickey	I'm happy to have others look into this. If possible to satisfy the semantics from an ephemeral participant like an STM, it would be great
09:06	AWizzArd	do you mean by distributed transactions those that occur over different JVM processes?
09:07	rhickey	AWizzArd: that doesn't matter - distributed just means >1 participant
09:07	AWizzArd	As in RAM and HD?
09:07	rhickey	need to succeed or fail together
09:07	AWizzArd	right
09:08	rhickey	a transaction involving more than one transactional participant needs to be coordinated
09:08	AWizzArd	Well, my plan currently is to first do the in-memory stuff. If no constraints or exception occur then I write to disk.
09:08	rhickey	AWizzArd: good luck
09:08	AWizzArd	Thanks, but it seems I pretty much solved this.
09:09	AWizzArd	And it was pretty simple, given that Clojure has these amazing fully persistent data structures.
09:09	AWizzArd	They do the hardest part.
09:10	tomoj	but.. don't you lose isolation?
09:10	AWizzArd	no
09:10	AWizzArd	the in-transaction modifications are done to a snapshot of the atom, hosted in a with-local-vars
09:10	tomoj	oh
09:10	AWizzArd	the snapshot can be modified in any way, and nobody will see that
09:11	AWizzArd	Because everything in Clojure is fully persistent thumbs up
09:11	tomoj	so, what's the downside?
09:11	tomoj	no downside? :O
09:11	AWizzArd	The downside is that I as the implementor of the DB need to use locks and w-l-v.
09:11	AWizzArd	Not as beautiful as using Clojures STM.
09:11	tomoj	ah
09:13	AWizzArd	Each insert/update/delte only modifies the w-l-v. And if that does not fail for any reason, then the w-l-v already contains the perfectly updated DB in RAM. Now only the changes get written to disk. And if that also not fails the atom will get its new value and everybody can then see it.
09:13	tomoj	I would love to see something like cassandra or hbase in clojure someday
09:14	cemerick	tomoj: you mean implemented in clojure?
09:14	tomoj	so you must ensure by locking that only one person can do this w-l-v stuff at a time, I guess
09:14	tomoj	cemerick: yeah
09:14	tomoj	starting work on thrift for clojure so that I can play with them from clojure now
09:15	cemerick	plenty of people are using both of those from clojure
09:15	AWizzArd	tomoj: yes. Without detailed knowledge it is always only possible that one thread can update a collection.
09:15	tomoj	maybe clojure wouldn't be a good fit, I dunno. I just know if it could exist, it'd be much more pleasant than java crap
09:15	tomoj	cemerick: sure, wrapping over java stuff I guess for now?
09:16	cemerick	tomoj: perhaps...though I don't see how that's bad.
09:16	tomoj	I'd rather not have to deal with java thrift in clojure :/
09:16	tomoj	maybe there is an easier way bypassing thrift
09:17	AWizzArd	Clojures stm is doing it in a similar way. If only one threads runs a dosync it will always win and do its isolated changes. If many threads are running a dosync then also only one can win, and the others must repeat. The result will be equivalent with my locks, only that no retries can occur.
09:18	AWizzArd	Sometimes it would be okay to concurently modify a collection, without locks and retries. But you can do this only when you understand what you are doing there.
09:18	tomoj	to me it's object-functional impedance
09:18	tomoj	(mismatched)
09:19	cemerick	tomoj: if that's the case, that's what a good wrapper will fix. But there's zero value in reimplementing heavily-tested and widely-used impls of nontrivial functionality.
09:19	tomoj	sure, I don't want to rewrite cassandra
09:19	rhickey	AWizzArd: "then also only one can win" above is not true
09:19	tomoj	if someone else did, I'd just be happy :)
09:20	rhickey	AWizzArd: non-overlapping transactions can both succeed without retry
09:20	rhickey	otherwise STM would devolve into a single global lock
09:21	AWizzArd	Yes, if they don't overlap it is fine.
09:21	rhickey	AWizzArd: but not true of yours, is it?
09:21	AWizzArd	indirectly it is also true for mine
09:21	AWizzArd	Because each thread would work on its own clone of the db
09:22	AWizzArd	And thus will be the only user updating it.
09:22	rhickey	which get merged how?
09:22	chouser	AWizzArd: I thought you were using one lock per db
09:22	AWizzArd	Only later, when he merges databases it will be a global lock.
09:22	AWizzArd	chouser: yes
09:23	AWizzArd	The merge is done with snapshots too, and after those are merged we see if the original db is still the same version. If yes it can get swaped.
09:24	chouser	and if not?
09:24	rhickey	it is serialized
09:24	rhickey	the STM is a parallel world view
09:24	AWizzArd	yes
09:24	AWizzArd	chouser: if the original db was changed then you can retry the merge.
09:25	AWizzArd	It may succeed, it may now run in a constraint
09:25	rhickey	AWizzArd: then just use a global lock, that's what you end up with
09:25	chouser	AWizzArd: so retries happen, but only before the write?
09:25	AWizzArd	like in a Clojure dosync, where two threads try to get mony from an account which may have a balance less than 0. One thread wins and gets the money first, the other one will fail.
09:26	AWizzArd	rhickey: I don't need a global lock, only during merges.
09:26	AWizzArd	And also then not a global lock, but just around the slave and master
09:26	rhickey	AWizzArd: but you are testing for success with a global db version, so all work is serialized - might as well do that up front
09:26	AWizzArd	All other DBs can be updated at the same time
09:27	rhickey	all right, lock per db. You aren't really leveraging STM
09:27	rhickey	doind speculative work only to fail on not-serial is a waste, just serialize the work with a lock
09:27	AWizzArd	rhickey: during a (merge db1 db2) I want to merge changes in db1 into db2. I will make a snapshot of db2 and merge that. If db2 did not change I can replace it with the merged snapshot.
09:28	chouser	AWizzArd: I thought you were taking the one lock per db up front
09:28	AWizzArd	chouser: yes, that is true for non-merge operations
09:28	chouser	the one feature over a simple lock is the thread-local version of the db to allow unlocked reads of old versions.
09:29	AWizzArd	rhickey: is dosync not doing speculative work? When I try to take money from an account in two different threads, then only one can win, because the balance my not be less than 0. 1000 is in the account, 800 both threads want to take.
09:29	rhickey	AWizzArd: but dosync overlap granularity is the ref, not the world/db
09:29	AWizzArd	Both concurrently take the 800 but then see that another thread already tried that and one needs to repeat and is now confronted with a different balance.
09:29	rhickey	aargh
09:30	AWizzArd	chouser: yes
09:30	AWizzArd	rhickey: the db could be in the ref. Not every table and index is its own ref.
09:32	rhickey	the STM world is a set of identities. transactions can encompass any arbitrary subset. transactions on non-overlapping subsets can simultaneously succeed
09:32	AWizzArd	non-overlaying subsets means: different refs yes?
09:32	rhickey	your dbs are fixed subsets
09:32	AWizzArd	Not two different key/value pairs inside one hashmap
09:33	AWizzArd	(def db (ref {}))
09:33	AWizzArd	Now two dosyncs want to assoc something onto db.
09:33	rhickey	I don't have any more time for this, sorry
09:33	AWizzArd	Can they both do it concurrently?
09:33	AWizzArd	Thread 1 adds :a 1, Thread 2 adds :b 2
09:33	AWizzArd	No retries, no speculative work, no global lock?
09:34	AWizzArd	rhickey: thanks for your time so far :)
09:38	chouser	AWizzArd: Based on the scheme we discussed with one lock per db, I don't see any value in allowing speculative work and retries.
09:38	AWizzArd	chouser: those would be only for merges.
09:39	chouser	I don't see any value in separating merges from other write work on the db.
09:40	AWizzArd	maybe that will not be needed, it is just an idea with which I am currently playing. Maybe merges will indeed have the same locking mechanism.
09:40	chouser	the reason speculative work can make sense for STM transactions is because the overlapping set of refs involved in each transaction is discovered within the transaction, and could even change on each retry.
09:41	chouser	but none of that applies to these db's, where you'll declare up front the one or more dbs you're going to touch.
09:41	AWizzArd	Yes, maybe that is not needed.
09:41	jcromartie	hmm, I seem to have lost the ability to hit C-up in my Clojure slime repl
09:41	jcromartie	oh, nevermind... stupid OS X Spaces shortcut keys!
09:41	AWizzArd	chouser: I will decide more about merges in the coming days. Currently the lock system seems to be very okay.
09:43	AWizzArd	Also it can later be updated to do more granular locking and indeed allow concurrent updates to different parts of the db.
09:43	AWizzArd	Completely separated modifications can then be divided and happen concurrently.
09:44	cemerick	_fogus_: can you move around down there yet?
09:44	_fogus_	In theory yes... in practice no
09:44	cgrand	AWizzArd: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/213-Invariants-and-the-STM
09:45	cemerick	_fogus_: and more to come, yes?
09:46	_fogus_	cemerick: Yes, another 10-20 on top of the 30 on the ground. :-(
09:46	AWizzArd	cgrand: yes, like this. And if Clojures STM supports that and io, then I can switch to that system within 1-2 days, and without breaking user code.
09:46	AWizzArd	cgrand: i only need something now, so what I do will be mostly equivalent in practice.
09:47	cemerick	What I don't understand is why I keep hearing people talk about "the northeast" getting pounded, when no notable amounts are falling north of Jersey.
09:48	cgrand	AWizzArd: use a ref of map of refs and a special-assoc fn
09:59	ordnungswidrig	Anybody uses genetic algorithms on sexps for machine learning?
09:59	tomoj	I remember someone talking about that a long time ago in here
09:59	tomoj	it may have been you? :(
10:00	AWizzArd	ordnungswidrig: yes
10:01	AWizzArd	Well, I am doing Genetic Programming, not GA.
10:01	ordnungswidrig	tomoj: no, just thought of it. there was a java chess application which did evolve an algorithm on a dsl.
10:01	tomoj	does that actually work at all?
10:01	ordnungswidrig	tomoj: somewhat, yes :-)
10:01	AWizzArd	tomoj: Genetic Programming?
10:01	tomoj	I always sort of imagined that random code would suck
10:01	tomoj	but never tried it
10:01	AWizzArd	it works very well for some problems
10:01	ordnungswidrig	if think of evolving some code for the google ai challange
10:02	tomoj	maybe particularly if you can restrict the language?
10:02	tomoj	whoever was talking about it before in here was trying it with just arithmetical functions, I think
10:04	AWizzArd	yes, in GA and GP you restrict the language.
10:07	ordnungswidrig	tomoj: airthmetic is way to unspecific. although I heard of attempts to generate formulas for certain numbers as the fine structure constant
10:15	jkdufair	anyone happen to have binaries of the CLR version of clojure? i don't have visual studio on this machine
10:21	triyo	Whats the best way to check if something is a non-sequence type? (not (coll? x))
10:22	Draggor	(not (seq? x))?
10:23	cemerick	triyo: you probably want (not (or (sequential? x) (seq? x)))
10:24	cemerick	unless you really, honestly only want non-seqs, in which case (not (seq? x)) will do as Draggor said.
10:27	triyo	cemerick: thanks, what is cool?
10:27	triyo	oops
10:27	triyo	type
10:27	triyo	typo
10:27	cemerick	,(doc coll?)
10:27	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x implements IPersistentCollection"
10:27	triyo	cemerick: thanks, what is coll? then
10:27	cemerick	,(doc sequential?)
10:27	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements Sequential"
10:27	cemerick	,(doc seq?)
10:27	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x implements ISeq"
10:28	cemerick	triyo: see http://github.com/Chouser/clojure-classes/blob/master/graph-w-legend.png for the complete view
10:29	triyo	cemerick: oh nice link, thanks
10:30	cemerick	chouser: what do the colors mean on that diagram again?
10:32	chouser	cemerick: the colors have no meaning, they're just to help to follow traces as the cross, converge, etc.
10:32	cemerick	ah
10:33	chouser	and I imagine that thing's probably out of date again.
10:35	jkdufair	if one were to add durability (via the filesystem, say) to clojure's STM, would that require a two-phase commit?
10:35	jkdufair	or just a lot of blocking, or what?
10:51	jcromartie	you know what would be good for the web? a distributed URL shortening service
10:52	jcromartie	(just thinking out loud... I know it's OT)
10:52	tomoj	ordnungswidrig: unspecific?
10:52	tomoj	I would've guessed the opposite
11:04	rhickey	cgrand: one problem with http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/213-Invariants-and-the-STM is how to avoid races? the STM no longer knows where the contention is and can't park conflicting attempts like it can at the ref level
11:08	cgrand	rhickey: you're right as usual and I would already be happy with single-ref invariants. (I over generalized the problem or the solution or both :-/)
11:09	cgrand	or do you mean "in-ref" races?
11:09	rhickey	yes, in-ref
11:10	rhickey	it's an important part of the Clojure STM design that it doesn't spin
11:11	rhickey	perhaps spinning in-ref not so bad, but I don't know
11:11	dsop	rhickey: I tried to initialize clojure classes from a jar using urlclassloader and failed
11:12	dsop	rhickey: it seems that the clojure rpl tries to use the system class loader to get the .clj file
11:12	dsop	rhickey: as the jar file is not in the classpath it doesn't find the .clj file and aborts.
11:15	cgrand	rhickey: ok, the real problem that made me think of invariants is being managing concurrent changes to a ref holding an associative datastructure.
11:15	dsop	rhickey: is that 'expected' to happen?
11:15	cgrand	rhickey: Another solution could be a commute-in fn (a mix of commute and update-in): (commute-in a-map-in-a-ref [:a :b] inc), there the STM knows both the ref and the path.
11:16	dsop	ah yes, and I gen-classed the necessary .class files for the jar
11:20	rhickey	cgrand: how is that not ordinary commute?
11:26	cgrand	commute-in would commute as long as (get-in @a-map-in-a-ref [:a :b]) doesn't change between in-txn value and commit-time. (so commute-in is a bad name)
11:28	rhickey	cgrand: that's still spin prone, as we'll allow two destined-to-conflict transactions to proceed
11:29	rhickey	I guess it could have the blocking characteristics of a write, but right now once blocked a txn is presumed failed
11:34	yuuki	are library routines with side effects marked? (like pop!)
11:34	chouser	frequently.
11:40	rhickey	dsop: can you make a simple test case?
11:41	dsop	rhickey: yes for sure.
11:42	rhickey	dsop: ok, then please attach that to a ticket on assembla - thanks
11:43	dsop	rhickey: I cannot open tickets, have to make sure first if I'm allowed to sign the cla
11:44	rhickey	dsop: anyone can create tickets via: https://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/support/tickets
11:44	rhickey	no CA required
11:44	dsop	oha, must have overseen this, thank you. will do
12:00	yuuki	(apply (peek '(+)) 2 3 ())
12:00	yuuki	Why should this not give 5 as the answer?
12:01	yuuki	(apply (peek (list +)) 2 3 ()) works
12:02	rhickey	,(class (peek '(+)))
12:02	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
12:02	rhickey	,(class (peek (list +)))
12:02	clojurebot	clojure.core$_PLUS___4518
12:03	yuuki	,(+ 5 5)
12:03	clojurebot	10
12:03	yuuki	neato
12:03	yuuki	I thought quote was a macro for (list ...)
12:04	chouser	no, they are rather different.
12:04	chouser	list is a function, so all its args are evaluated first, then passed to 'list' which returns a list object.
12:05	chouser	'foo is the same as (quote foo)
12:06	yuuki	Hmm
12:06	chouser	which causes foo, however complex and nested it may be, to remain unevaluated, returning whatever literal datastructures you have there.
12:06	yuuki	I see
12:07	yuuki	so '(+) returns a list containing the symbol + and (list +) returns a list of the definition of +
12:08	chouser	yes
12:08	chouser	,[1 (+ 2 3)]
12:08	clojurebot	[1 5]
12:08	morphling	yuuki: `(~+) would be the same as (list +)
12:08	chouser	,'[1 (+ 2 3)]
12:08	clojurebot	[1 (+ 2 3)]
12:08	yuuki	,`(~+)
12:08	clojurebot	(#<core$_PLUS___4518 clojure.core$_PLUS___4518@1b38815>)
12:08	yuuki	neato
12:08	chouser	,`[1 (+ 2 3)]
12:08	clojurebot	[1 (clojure.core/+ 2 3)]
12:09	yuuki	what is the deal with `?
12:09	chouser	that's an example from the section on evaluation and quoting in _fogus_'s book.
12:10	yuuki	interesting
12:10	chouser	` is provided to make the writing of macros more convenient
12:11	dnolen	,(let [x '+] `(~x 2 3))
12:11	clojurebot	(+ 2 3)
12:11	morphling	,(apply (peek `(+)) 2 3 ())
12:11	clojurebot	3
12:11	morphling	(apply (peek `(~+)) 2 3 ())
12:12	morphling	,(apply (peek `(~+)) 2 3 ())
12:12	clojurebot	5
12:24	underdev	anyone recommend a good sytax highlighting theme for clojure?
12:24	underdev	emacs
12:27	pjackson	There's not /really/ much to highlight. I use "arjen"
12:28	pjackson	which is part of color-theme.el...
12:28	underdev	great, ty
12:29	underdev	hard to get a straight answer about color-theme
12:29	underdev	now i know
12:33	noidi	underdev, I like zenburn
12:33	noidi	looks like this http://slinky.imukuppi.org/zenburn/ , emacs port available here http://brockman.se/2003/zenburn/
12:39	underdev	noidi: ty
12:39	underdev	pretty nice
13:21	DeusExPikachu	I'm getting more strange behavior modifying server.clj in swank-clojure, I'm passing to function setup-server the option :dont-close true, to opts. I'm printing out the value of opts before the call to start-swank-socket-server! and its set to true, but if I print out the last map {:annount ... (opts :dont-close) [by wrapping it in a let, printing, then returning], :dont-close turns to nil. The only way this is possibl
13:21	DeusExPikachu	e is if something is mutating opts, however, I don't see any code mutating opts... What's going on?
13:45	ninjudd	getting an error compiling clojure-contrib master using maven
13:45	ninjudd	Reason: POM 'com.theoryinpractise:clojure-maven-plugin' not found in repository: System is offline.
13:48	cemerick	ninjudd: are you running maven in offline mode (e.g. -o)?
13:48	ninjudd	yes
13:49	ninjudd	from the README: mvn package -o -Dclojure.jar=/Users/ninjudd/lib/java/clojure.jar
13:49	cemerick	doing that will prevent maven from obtaining the necessary dependencies
13:49	cemerick	that's only necessary if you're using your own clojure.jar, but even so, you need to let it run normally once so it can pull down the necessary plugins, etc.
13:50	ninjudd	i am using my own clojure.jar
13:50	cemerick	ok, so run mvn package so that the necessary plugins can be obtained, and then do an offline build with your own clojure jar.
13:50	ninjudd	is that the kind of thing i would know if i'd ever used Maven before? or should it be added to the README?
13:51	cemerick	yeah, that's sorta basic :-)
13:52	cemerick	in general, building offline is entirely unnecessary.
13:52	ninjudd	ok
13:52	cemerick	I actually don't think it'd be necessary when using a particular clojure jar either shrug
13:53	technomancy	it's pretty important if you're using mvn for tests and you have a lot of snapshot dependencies
13:53	technomancy	otherwise you can double or triple the time a test run takes
13:54	stuartsierra	Should I remove the "-o" in the command line on the README
13:54	cemerick	stuartsierra: I think so. It doesn't do anything w.r.t. ensuring that the provided clojure jar is used.
13:55	ninjudd	hmm, looks like master clojure-contrib won't compile with master clojure
13:55	ninjudd	Compiling clojure.contrib.fnmap.PersistentFnMap to /Users/justin/projects/clojure-contrib/target/classes
13:55	ninjudd	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.VerifyError: class clojure.contrib.fnmap.PersistentFnMap$loading__4759__auto____1 overrides final method meta.()Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap;
13:55	stuartsierra	ok
13:55	Ankou	hi, I have a nested map structure and want to change something in an inner map(say I have {:a {:b 0 :c 0}} and want to change c) what's the best way to achieve this?
13:55	cemerick	technomancy: I dunno -- then you're going to be (potentially) testing against stale artifacts
13:55	stuartsierra	ninjudd: that sounds like a bug in fnmap, which is obsoleted by deftype/defprotocol anyway
13:55	technomancy	cemerick: that's almost always what I want
13:56	cemerick	Ankou: try assoc-in or update-in
13:56	technomancy	I mean vs waiting 60s to make sure they're not stale
13:56	ninjudd	ankou: assoc-in or update-in
13:57	technomancy	slight exaggeration, but we have a _lot_ of snapshots, and have five repositories to check against; it adds up fast
13:57	technomancy	each snapshot must be checked in each repository
13:57	ninjudd	stuartsierra: so what should i do get it to compile?
13:57	stuartsierra	leave out the -o
13:58	Ankou	okay, thanks
13:58	stuartsierra	oh, wait
13:58	stuartsierra	ninjudd: to compile, see instructions for skipping tests in the README
13:58	stuartsierra	Wait, that won't help either.
13:58	stuartsierra	Remove the line for PersistentFnMap in pom.xml
13:59	cemerick	technomancy: I'd almost say that what you've described is a symptom of not cutting releases often enough ;-)
14:00	stuartsierra	Hudson reports no failures on latest builds.
14:01	technomancy	cemerick: probably. but in most cases we don't have control over that.
14:03	stuartsierra	Pushed 9aecba5c5133d1a5017bc52b7def9a85b2ec3cef - remove -o from command line in README
14:09	DeusExPikachu	has there existed a bug in clojure where deferencing an item in a map using keywords with hyphens in their name?
14:10	stuartsierra	DeusExPikachu: not that I can think of
14:10	stuartsierra	re your problems with swank, maybe there's an issue with how the default options get merged
14:11	hiredman	DeusExPikachu: deferencing?
14:11	cemerick	DeusExPikachu: this is a slot in a deftype instance?
14:11	DeusExPikachu	I'm not familiar with default options, at least in the definition of setup-server, I don't see any code involving defaults
14:12	DeusExPikachu	perhaps I'm not using correct terminology, but I'm referring to something like this (let [opts {:a 1 :b 2}] (opts :a))
14:13	DeusExPikachu	what do you guys use to paste code?
14:14	chouser	DeusExPikachu: http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure
14:16	DeusExPikachu	http://paste.lisp.org/+2118
14:17	DeusExPikachu	I pasted my modified version of setup-server, which includes some print statements, and the output (forgot to paste the word "setup-server but that's not relevant)
14:17	DeusExPikachu	if you look at the output, :dont-close becomes nil when I (opts :dont-close) it, but opts never changed
14:19	cemerick	DeusExPikachu: and you're getting an error when accessing opts?
14:19	DeusExPikachu	no error, just that it returns nil
14:19	Chousuke	DeusExPikachu: are you sure the code is exactly like that?
14:19	DeusExPikachu	in the code (opts :dont-close)
14:19	Chousuke	DeusExPikachu: maybe you have a typo?
14:19	DeusExPikachu	Chousuke, I just copied pasted it
14:20	cemerick	A couple months ago, I ran into a bug where deftype slots with dashes caused errors (because the java name munging wasn't in place yet).
14:20	DeusExPikachu	that's what I figure
14:21	DeusExPikachu	something of that nature must be the problem, cause the code looks fine
14:22	stuartsierra	but opts is an ordinary map, right?
14:22	DeusExPikachu	stuartsierra, correct
14:22	cemerick	oh, nevermind then
14:23	cemerick	anyway, deftype doesn't support non-java field names (at least in my current build)
14:24	stuartsierra	must be a typo
14:24	DeusExPikachu	the function start-server, creates a new map generated by this (let [opts (apply hash-map opts)] ..., start-server passes this to setup-server
14:25	DeusExPikachu	there is no typo
14:25	stuartsierra	http://paste.lisp.org/+2118/1
14:25	stuartsierra	Wait
14:25	stuartsierra	(apply hash-map opts)
14:25	stuartsierra	If opts is already a map, that won't work.
14:26	DeusExPikachu	it wasn't, opts was a vector
14:26	stuartsierra	,(apply hash-map {:a 1, :b 2})
14:26	clojurebot	{[:a 1] [:b 2]}
14:26	DeusExPikachu	(apply hash-map (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2}))
14:26	DeusExPikachu	thats basically what happens earlier
14:26	stuartsierra	,(apply hash-map (apply concat {:a 1 :b 2}))
14:26	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
14:26	stuartsierra	hmmmm
14:27	DeusExPikachu	btw, to be clear, I'm not running this function in a repl, its the output after running my modified version of lein-swank
14:30	stuartsierra	dunno, good luck!
14:30	DeusExPikachu	:(
14:31	cemerick	DeusExPikachu: try (println (keys opts)), just as a sanity check?
14:31	DeusExPikachu	cemerick, ok
14:31	cemerick	eh, that won't help
14:32	cemerick	perhaps one of the :dont-close keys has an unprintable char in it
14:33	DeusExPikachu	... I probably quadrillion checked that already
14:33	DeusExPikachu	I can't make an unprintable typo 20 times ina row
14:34	cemerick	DeusExPikachu: you've got a repl in to this code?
14:35	DeusExPikachu	cemerick, haven't called it in a repl yet, no, only grabbing output after running it as part of a larger system
14:36	cemerick	DeusExPikachu: that's your next step. Just def the opts somewhere, and then poke at the thing until you know what's up.
14:37	DeusExPikachu	thing is, I've been printing verbose information of all the function calls leading up to this call
14:40	DeusExPikachu	ok, so in the repl it works correctly, but in the system it doesn't
14:47	DeusExPikachu	so that means the problem lies not in my code
14:48	cemerick	It doesn't sound like you can infer anything from that.
14:48	cemerick	There's certainly some code that's faulty, and it's nearly certainly not clojure's map impl.
14:50	DeusExPikachu	when I say it works correctly in the repl, I mean that it prints correctly, it ultimately fails cause the other args are missing instances of classes that are made unless I simply run everything from the beginning
14:50	DeusExPikachu	just to be clear
14:51	DeusExPikachu	btw, http://paste.lisp.org/display/94652#2 I printed other ways to refer to the :dont-close item, which all return nil
14:51	LauJensen	Extended the Reddit Clone a little bit: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/02/reddit-clone-with-user-registration/
14:56	DeusExPikachu	cemerick, in the class path, there are multiple versions of clojure being used, is it possible a conflict can arise with multiple versions? That would be a problem not caused by any "faulty code" per say , but faulty configuration
14:57	cemerick	heh, that's a bad idea in general. All bets are off if you've got multiple versions of any library in your classpath.
14:57	DeusExPikachu	unfortunately, leiningen seems to setup running environments like that a lot
14:59	DeusExPikachu	or I should say, its easy to do so
14:59	DeusExPikachu	and difficult to do otherwise
15:00	cemerick	I'd try manually fixing up the classpath and seeing what happens.
15:01	cemerick	cgrand: is there any reason why I shouldn't use enlive's emit for general use? clojure.xml's emit is broken.
15:07	DeusExPikachu	hmm, tried it with no multiple versions, still have the problem
15:07	DeusExPikachu	wouldn've been great had that been it
15:21	cemerick	I wonder if anyone has any interest in a json -> XML conversion fn?
15:22	dakrone	have any for the other way around?
15:23	cgrand	cemerick: none that I can think of (apart from namespaces as usual)
15:23	cemerick	dakrone: that's a lot tougher
15:23	cemerick	so, no :-)
15:24	cemerick	cgrand: sure. Maybe rhickey can be convinced to pull yours in as a replacement. ;-)
15:25	xp_prg	anyone want to help a newbie learn some clojure?
15:25	BrandonW	that depends how newbie you are :)
15:26	BrandonW	if you are less newbie than me, then no :D
15:26	chouser	the-kenny: thanks! :-)
15:27	the-kenny	chouser: I wanted to buy it for some weeks now, but I only just figured out how to buy it with paypal w/o a credit card
15:28	chouser	the-kenny: ah, good. I didn't even realize Manning was using paypal until you mentioned it a while ago. For some reason I haven't felt compelled to buy the book. :-P
15:28	the-kenny	chouser: mh... but I think it's an interesting book, you should buy it :p
15:29	chouser	:-)
15:35	the-kenny	huh
15:35	the-kenny	"aus seinem Herzen keine Mrdergrube machen"
15:35	rhickey	rhickey: would gladly take patches to improve emit
15:36	the-kenny	"Mrdergrube" is missing an "ö" after the "M"
15:38	rhickey	what's with the run-test3369805950334031482.clj in contrib tests?
15:43	chouser	rhickey: I don't see that.
15:44	rhickey	ERROR in (can-print-json-null) (run-test3369805950334031482.clj:45)
15:44	rhickey	expected: (= "null" (json-str nil))
15:44	rhickey	actual: java.lang.NullPointerException: null
15:45	chouser	I just pulled a new contrib, and in master branch did "mvn test" ... Ran 256 tests containing 1203 assertions. 0 failures, 0 errors.
15:46	rhickey	yes, but I made a change to core that broke contrib with that message
15:46	chouser	oh, I see.
15:46	chouser	but I don't have a file named anything like that in contrib either.
15:47	rhickey	reverted it, rebuilt both, re-inserted it, now tests pass - aargh
15:47	chouser	hm, perhaps it's temporary while maven does its thing?
15:47	chouser	oh
15:47	chouser	:-(
15:47	chouser	"Multiple deliver calls to a promise"
15:48	cemerick	rhickey: that file is a temp file that clojure-maven-plugin generates to require all namespaces found in the project, and run tests over them.
15:48	cemerick	look in your /tmp (or whereever java puts temp files on your system)
15:49	cemerick	The file is uninteresting, just the root from where tests are run.
15:50	cemerick	rhickey: are you only interested in incremental patches to emit, or would you be open to a replacement?
15:51	rhickey	almost any patch would be a replacement - there's next to nothing there
15:51	cemerick	are you tied to the idea of printing, as opposed to, say, a seq of strings?
15:52	cemerick	returning a seq of strings, that is
15:53	rhickey	cemerick: strings that start and stop where?
15:56	cemerick	rhickey: e.g. enlive emits ("<" "root" "></" "root" ">") for {:tag :root, :attrs nil, :content ""}
15:58	rhickey	cemerick: to what end?
16:00	cemerick	rhickey: not following you.
16:00	chouser	so you can lazily pull from that seq instead of dancing with binding out, I assume.
16:00	rhickey	but there isn't a rule about what is in the strings or where they break, is there?
16:01	cemerick	chouser: that's nice, but not a huge deal IMO -- the real improvements would be proper content output (e.g. no inappropriate newlines, etc), basic attribute value escaping, etc.
16:01	rhickey	i.e. what else are you going to do with them but dump on a stream?
16:02	cemerick	the printing vs. seq issue is only important vis á vis API compatibility
16:02	rhickey	one can be built on the other
16:03	cemerick	true enough
16:03	rhickey	but it is more efficient to put the characters right on a stream than to allocate all those strings
16:04	cemerick	I really dislike rebinding out -- I can never remember what specific type of stream/writer/printer/whatever it's supposed to be.
16:05	cemerick	But anyway, that's neither here nor there.
16:05	chouser	pretty often those individual strings will already exist in the tree being emitted
16:05	chouser	though of course the lazy-seq objects would have to be created.
16:05	rhickey	cemerick: fair enough, but the solution there is to make it easier to do the right thing, not abandon streams
16:06	cemerick	sure
16:07	cemerick	cgrand: would you have any objection to my attempting to package up the enlive emit stuff as the basis for a new clojure.xml emit?
16:09	chouser	cemerick: fwiw, there's an emit in lazy-xml that also escapes attr values and has an option to not insert extra newlines.
16:10	chouser	looks like it does a lot of string allocating though. :-/
16:11	cemerick	hrm, quite the profusion
16:12	cemerick	it seems like one of these should get into clojure.xml for 1.2
16:12	cemerick	chouser: was the :pad option just to stay compatible with clojure.xml/emit?
16:12	chouser	cemerick: yes
16:13	jimt	Is there a standard/best way to do serial port communication with clojure? Just use Java/rxtx? Or is there a more lispy wrapper?
16:14	ordnungswidrig	re
16:15	cemerick	perhaps a better idea would be to build a clojure-xml->DOM fn that produces java DOM elts, and feed that into the xerces/xalan stuff in the JDK to emit XML. There's a perf hit, but otherwise someone's going to be reimplementing all the escapes, pretty printing, blah blah blah.
16:16	chouser	perf hit + 3rd party lib to avoid escapes that have already been translated to clojure (a few times) doesn't seem worth it.
16:16	chouser	cemerick: I would draw the line at pretty-printing, though. If you want more complex kinds of transformations then by all means use a java lib that does it for you.
16:17	cemerick	chouser: what 3rd-party lib? All that stuff is baked into the JDK.
16:17	chouser	xerces/xalan is? oh, is that JDK not JRE?
16:17	cemerick	There's also the issue of emitting namespaced xml eventually, as well as non-UTF-8 encodings.
16:18	cemerick	sorry, I shouldn't have said xerces/xalan -- the JRE/JDK starting with 1.4 or 1.5 includes an XSL transformer, which ropes in all this serialization stuff.
16:19	cemerick	I don't actually know what the specific impl is.
16:19	chouser	oh. if it's included, that sounds like a good route.
16:19	chouser	to me. though if rhickey was concerned about allocating string, allocating DOM objects may be right out.
16:20	cemerick	chouser: yeah, javax.xml.transform and friends are all there.
16:22	cemerick	XML serialization doesn't seem like a perf-sensitive thing to start with, but reimplementing all that can go into it seems a little crazy regardless.
16:24	rhickey	I'm definitely for the path of least wheel-reinventing
16:26	cemerick	The only issue is that this would be the first step out of the java.lang/io/util packages...which doesn't matter to me, but makes things just a little harder for someone porting to another host.
16:49	rhickey	cemerick: but some all-clojure things already exist (enlive)?
16:51	rhickey	did anyone aver submit a patch for inline bit shifts?
16:51	rhickey	ever
16:52	cemerick	rhickey: enlive is very good in my experience so far, but it has no pretty-printing option, I don't know what one would do if emitting non-UTF-8 was required, and even once clojure.xml/parse and friends support namespaces, serializing them properly is wickedly difficult.
16:53	rhickey	cemerick: still seems like a proper subset of the final solution, what/whenever that may be
16:53	cemerick	rhickey: you mean something like enlive?
16:53	rhickey	yes
16:54	cemerick	hrm
16:54	rhickey	unless it is doing something that will become wrong in the future
16:54	cemerick	I'm quickly becoming convinced that having an easy clojure.xml <-> DOM bridge is critical in general, and if that exists, why bother having a clojure-based emit?
16:55	rhickey	makes sense - have you got a clojure.xml -> dom thingy?
16:55	cemerick	um...no :-)
16:56	rhickey	because there's a sense in which that can become more generic, even though the DOMs might differ per host, we just cover to/from host DOM
16:56	cemerick	yeah
16:57	replaca	rhickey: I have to apologize. Autodoc is broken on post-1.1 clojure & contrib (the prob of using code to document itself)
16:57	rhickey	except everyone knows DOMs are unusable pigs sometimes
16:57	rhickey	replaca: no problem
16:57	replaca	rhickey: I've not had too much time to work on it because we just had a baby and that's kind of all consuming, but I should be thee soon :-)
16:58	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, this is purely a library leverage strategy
16:58	rhickey	replaca: congrats!
16:58	replaca	rhickey: thanks :)
16:58	lancepantz	how can i get the exception message from a catch? i'm trying (catch Exception e (foo (.getMessage e)))
16:59	replaca	now that the baby is actually born, I'm taking some time off and while she's napping (a lot) I should have some time to get things put back together
16:59	rhickey	cemerick: no one would look askance at a to/from DOM option
16:59	lancepantz	which returns null
17:00	cemerick	rhickey: FYI, all the DOM stuff is interfaces, but they're pretty hairy and super-mutable, and I wouldn't rule out a nightmare scenario where transformers have implementation-specific dependencies, etc.
17:00	StartsWithK	lancepantz, can you paste a bigger code snippet?
17:00	cemerick	but, I'll take a stab at it soon-ish. :-)
17:00	cemerick	rhickey: do you have any idea as to how namespace support might work out in clojure.xml/parse, etc?
17:01	lancepantz	http://www.pastie.org/817149
17:01	lancepantz	this is my first clojure project, so don't laugh :)
17:02	StartsWithK	rhickey, in clojure.xml you use Keyword/intern to convert string to keywords in parse, and not keyword, can you explain why?
17:03	StartsWithK	i just finished json parser on jackson, and keyword vs Keyword/intern is something like 4x speed up
17:03	StartsWithK	if i use intern
17:04	rhickey	StartsWithK: probably because keyword didn't exist yet
17:04	replaca	going back over today chatting: the reason enlive returns a seq of strings is because it builds things up from small chunks with function applications and Christophe wanted to avoid building up successively larger strings at each layer
17:05	replaca	instead you just assemble the parts at the end
17:05	StartsWithK	rhickey, any reason why keyword has a instance check for keyword?
17:05	lancepantz	anyone mind taking a look at my exception handling code, i'm trying to get the message from the exception: http://www.pastie.org/817149
17:05	rhickey	replaca: understood, but not really important to the consumer
17:05	StartsWithK	i don't think that is a main reason for such a drastic difference in speed
17:06	StartsWithK	but it looks out of place
17:06	rhickey	StartsWithK: do you see this difference in master?
17:07	StartsWithK	rhickey, yes, i am on 1.2, and when converting jsonk string keys to keywords i get 4x bether performance with Keyword/intern, i also checked with c.c.json, and it can get up to 2x only by changing keyword to Keyword/intern
17:07	StartsWithK	but if i wrap Keyword/intern in a function, problem returns
17:08	StartsWithK	i wanted to do something like (read json-stream :key keyowd) so user can pass a covertor function
17:08	DeusExPikachu	technomancy, I've got a two part patch that depends on each other for both leiningen and swank-clojure to extend lein-swank to accept more arguments and pass them to start-repl, how should i send them to you, email? mailing-list for clojure/leiningen/swank-clojure?
17:08	StartsWithK	but now i'm stuck at :key true/false, sending anything but identity will trash performance
17:12	StartsWithK	rhickey, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/175941/
17:12	technomancy	DeusExPikachu: thanks. I prefer being given a git url to pull from to patches. the mailing list for leiningen would be fine.
17:15	StartsWithK	and if i do (def make-keyword (fn [#^String s] (clojure.lang.Keyword/intern s))) (time (dotimes [i 100000] (make-keyword (str i)))) i get almost the same results as Keyword/intern
17:15	chouser	it seems plausable that the org.xml stuff in java may provide a away to emit xml from a stream of SAX events instead of a DOM. Ought to be more efficient and probably no less simple to implement than converting clojure.xml to a dom.
17:19	StartsWithK	rhickey, (defn make-keyword2 [name] (if (keyword? name) name (clojure.lang.Keyword/intern #^String name)))
17:20	StartsWithK	with added typehint it works just like a direct call
17:21	StartsWithK	maybe the hint should go inside the symbol too
17:21	cgrand	cemerick: feel free to borrow any of my code
17:22	chouser	perhaps using javax.xml.transform.Transformer and providing something that implements SAXSource on a clojure.xml structure
17:25	StartsWithK	is this http://clojars.org/repo/nstools/nstools/0.2.0/nstools-0.2.0.pom a good template for creating a pom?
17:25	rhickey	StartsWithK: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/175950/
17:26	StartsWithK	rhickey, yeah, that works, can you do the symbol too
17:27	rhickey	?
17:27	StartsWithK	symbol function is missing type hints at the same places as keyword
17:28	rhickey	StartsWithK: doesn't need them
17:28	rhickey	keyword had a reflection warning, symbol doesn't
17:28	StartsWithK	oh, your right
17:31	rhickey	StartsWithK: ok, fixed on my machine, will go up with next push - thanks for the report!
17:31	chouser	that looks like it should do it. should give you options like encoding, indent, xml-declaration, media-type, entities...
17:32	StartsWithK	that will speed up c.c.json/read-json by 2x :)
17:33	StartsWithK	other problems i found in c.c.json are, it consumes stack while reading (and in write, but that is not such a big deal)
17:34	replaca	rhickey: (sorry, jumping around) you're right, of course, but the issue was that there's no difference between the inside and the outside and Christophe didn't want to create an extra layer that was just (apply str ...) and duplicated the whole mechanism of deftemplate.
17:34	StartsWithK	and it will parse invalid json like "1" "[1,,,,2]" "{\"a\":::::2}" ...
17:36	romanroe	emacs/slime always asks to save the files when I eval the buffer etc. Is it possible to set something like autosave=true?
17:43	fro0g	I'm looking for a sparql interface for clojure
17:43	fro0g	agraph-java-client seems to contain one, but is it only for allegro graph ?
17:52	DeusExPikachu	technomancy, I'm sending you the pull request via github's pull request, I don't know how to link a pull request manually. Is that ok?
17:58	technomancy	that's fine
17:58	technomancy	DeusExPikachu: if you can keep work in a topic branch you get bonus points
17:59	technomancy	but if it's on master that's OK too
17:59	DeusExPikachu	hmm, next time I suppose, I sent them
18:00	technomancy	I should write up a post about best practices for submitting patches to the projects I maintain. =)
18:00	DeusExPikachu	the changes are simple, but it took me forever to test it to make sure it worked... the print not printing quotation marks really got me, it would've saved me sooooo much time
18:01	technomancy	yeah, that's put me off hacking swank more myself; it's so annoying to test manually =\
18:01	DeusExPikachu	what sucks is I wanted to use lein swank, and slime and all that goodness I"m used to, but couldn't cause thats the thing I'm actually working on
18:03	DeusExPikachu	technomancy, I agree a brain dead simple guide would expand the people who would submit patches to you :) Maybe a new video from in the works sean devlin?
18:03	technomancy	oh, that's a great idea
18:42	ninjudd	if i want to submit a patch do i still need to fill out the contributor agreement and mail it in?
18:45	neotyk	,(doc proxy)
18:45	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provide
18:45	neotyk	does proxy work with generics?
18:46	neotyk	like "interface I<T> ..."
18:50	neotyk	right, generics are compile time, so I don't really care, thanks :)
18:58	raek	hmm, if I add a class into the classpath after the start point of a clojure program, can I use it without having to restart the program?
19:02	technomancy	raek: if you add a .class file to a directory that's already on the classpath it should work
19:09	raek	aww, I realized what where wrong...
19:09	raek	I'm using swank on my server and slime on my laptop
19:09	raek	I only have the class-file on my laptop...
19:32	raek	can I re-import a class if I have changed it?
19:35	rhickey	raek: not without restarting the jvm, no
20:12	raek	Why does LazySeqs catch exceptions and wrap them in RuntimeExceptions?
20:32	qed	http://www.infoq.com/interviews/hickey-clojure
20:32	qed	i missed that one
20:41	xp_prg	anyone want to teach a newbie some clojure?
20:42	qed	xp_prg: anything in particular
20:42	qed	xp_prg: im sort of a noob myself, but maybe i can help
20:42	xp_prg	how to make a custom programming language with it
20:43	qed	xp_prg: like a DSL?
20:43	xp_prg	what is that?
20:43	xp_prg	Domain specific language?
20:43	qed	like CSS
20:43	xp_prg	like a cascading style sheet?
20:43	qed	yes
20:44	xp_prg	that is what DSL means?
20:45	xp_prg	qed be my friend right now
20:47	xp_prg	am I talking to myself?
20:48	xp_prg	qed just be my friend right now, no biggie
20:51	xp_prg	qed?!!!!!!!!
20:51	qed	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language
20:52	xp_prg	ok so how do I do that in clojure then?
20:52	qed	xp_prg: very carefully
20:52	qed	xp_prg: it's best to learn clojure before trying to do things with it
20:52	qed	;)
20:53	xp_prg	right, so help me to learn it then do a DSL
20:53	qed	i dont think i will be doing that
20:53	xp_prg	and remember to be nice as I am new
20:53	xp_prg	qed? :(
20:53	qed	if you have specific questions id be happy to offer some help, but the request you are making right now is rather unreasonable
20:53	xp_prg	how come?
20:54	xp_prg	are you a playa hata?
20:54	qed	dont hate the player, hate the game
20:54	xp_prg	right
20:54	xp_prg	I want to learn the game don't hate on a playa
20:55	xp_prg	so you gonna hate on me?
20:56	qed	xp_prg: if you have a specific question about implementing something in clojure that is not as vague as creating some vague DSL, then I can help you more, but like I said, you're asking something which has many answers, could require every core clojure feature available, etc.
20:56	xp_prg	even for a simple little example?
20:57	qed	xp_prg: if you have a specific question about specific code i can help, otherwise i suggest you google around
20:57	xp_prg	but how about a simple little DSL?
20:57	xp_prg	I learn quick I have CS, MSCS, and MBA
20:57	qed	so surely you could pick up a book...
20:58	xp_prg	ya, that is the hard way to do it
20:58	qed	it is the correct way to do it
20:59	xp_prg	ya I guess I am just too overwhelmed, oh well
20:59	qed	xp_prg: i felt the same way, but there is no substitute for diving in
20:59	qed	you will be glad you did
20:59	xp_prg	I have stuided some stuff
21:00	qed	i suggest projecteuler.net
21:00	qed	start doing some problems with clojure -- it will get you a bit more comfortable
21:00	underdev	xp_prg: google sicp, breaze through that, you'll be able to make a dsl
21:01	qed	shouldnt take you more than 2-3 hours ;)
21:01	danlarkin	stop with this dsl nonsense
21:01	danlarkin	what you mean is "library"
21:06	underdev	lisps are great for dsls
21:06	underdev	xp_prg: read some paul graham essays, grep for "bottom up"
21:06	xp_prg	dude I have cs degree I am not a fool
21:06	xp_prg	I just want someone to hold my hand for a while
21:07	underdev	graham
21:07	underdev	seriously
21:07	qed	xp_prg: i dont think anyone is calling you a fool
21:07	xp_prg	actually I am a fool :>
21:07	xp_prg	but I am a fool with two cs degrees
21:07	qed	xp_prg: one cannot ask meaningful questions without knowing the problem they need to solve first
21:08	underdev	i have a degree in philosophy, and i've read some paul graham essays
21:08	xp_prg	well the truth is I just want to understand why clojure is so cool
21:08	qed	xp_prg: read http://clojure.org/rationale
21:08	qed	that should sum it up
21:09	underdev	yeah, for "whats cool", get some of the videos, grab them locally, and play them at 2.5x in vlc
21:09	underdev	blow your mind, not take a lot of time
21:09	qed	xp_prg: here's a good video to watch
21:09	xp_prg	sweet passive learning
21:09	xp_prg	that is how I am now, I am too old to be like all active learning and stuff
21:09	qed	xp_prg: http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Expert-to-Expert-Rich-Hickey-and-Brian-Beckman-Inside-Clojure/
21:09	xp_prg	especially when this is just for fun
21:10	ninjudd	xp_prg: check out http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Clojure-Pragmatic-Programmers-Halloway/dp/1934356336/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265767791&sr=8-1
21:10	ninjudd	xp_prg: there is a section in there about writing your own DSLs
21:10	underdev	i put the flvs (or that case mov) throuugh winFF and listen to them on my mp3 player while doing chores
21:11	underdev	that first one is streamed, so it takes a long time to capture it
21:11	xp_prg	sweet man
21:11	qed	very sweet.
21:11	xp_prg	I am humbled by your ways
21:11	underdev	i think his keynotes are really great for whats cool
21:11	qed	rich is a great presenter
21:12	underdev	stm mvcc data structures
21:12	underdev	yeah he is
21:12	qed	i liked "Are we there yet?"
21:12	qed	it's all the clojure you need, without the clojure
21:12	tomoj	the philosophy stuff really made me happy :)
21:12	qed	tomoj: im a philosophy guy as well
21:12	underdev	rt
21:12	underdev	had a few issues with it, but you know...
21:12	underdev	it applys to the concrete
21:13	underdev	implementation stuff
21:13	qed	nod
21:14	tomoj	I guess most of my previous exposure to language evangelism was about accidental stuff
21:14	qed	i loved the commenter at the end of are we there yet who talks about rich capitulating the history of philosophy
21:14	qed	sort of synthesizing the two halves of philosophy
21:14	tomoj	like "oh the syntax is so nice and we have features XYZ"
21:14	tomoj	rather than "nearly everyone else is fundamentally wrong" :)
21:14	qed	haha yes
21:14	underdev	ANW FTW!
21:16	underdev	i think there was a bit of conflating epistemolgy with metaphysics in there
21:16	qed	yeah
21:16	underdev	but im a jerk about such things
21:16	underdev	an orinthologist having some issues with birds
21:17	underdev	as it were
21:17	underdev	but hey, he implemented clojure, i'm on day two of configuring emacs
21:17	underdev	so who should you listen to? :)
21:18	chouser	cemerick: looked at emitting xml any more since this afternoon?
21:20	cemerick	A little. Producing DOM node impls looks possible, but the interfaces are pretty hairy, and I'm scared that stuff like the transformer has hidden dependencies on some default implementation in the accompanying DOM parser(s).
21:20	chouser	cemerick: I think it can be done without a DOM
21:20	cemerick	Either way, I'm very convinced that a clojure.xml <--> DOM conversion process is the way to go for a lot of stuff.
21:20	cemerick	chouser: Oh?
21:21	chouser	cemerick: I'm not quite sure yet, but it looks like transformers might be able to take as input a thing that's delivering sax events
21:21	cemerick	I was hoping for that too, but I don't think so.
21:22	chouser	oh
21:23	cemerick	everything related to sax grounds out in an InputSource, which must be backed by an inputstream or a reader.
21:24	cemerick	I'm certain we could implement a sax event source for a specific parser impl (like xerces), but that's a no-no.
21:24	chouser	cemerick: I'm looking at this. it seems so close... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1977504/what-is-the-most-memory-efficient-way-to-emit-xml-from-a-jaxp-sax-contenthandler
21:27	cemerick	chouser: hrm, that does look promising. I'll have to go trolling some more tomorrow. :-)
21:27	chouser	it's just like snapping together Lego bricks.
21:27	chouser	Lego bricks that are giant misshapen lumps with wildly incompatible surfaces.
21:28	cemerick	heh
21:28	cemerick	g'night :-)
21:38	qed	k
21:42	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
21:45	hiredman	oh, whoops
21:47	qed	'http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/jmc.lisp -- what is the purpose of the dots after function names?
21:47	qed	evcon. assoc. eval. etc.
21:53	tomoj	is it just me or are compojure requests stateful
21:53	tomoj	I mean, not values
21:54	tomoj	e.g. get-multipart-params from compojure.http.multipart seems to only work once
21:54	tomoj	is this for efficiency, or was it just convenient to use java crap, I wonder
21:59	TheBusby	So what's the clojure/java way of handling getopt?
22:00	chouser	TheBusby: there's a weak simple little thing in contrib: command-line
22:01	TheBusby	chouser: thanks! will look there first!
22:01	qed	tomoj: my guess re: efficiency vs java is that it's a little of both
22:05	tomoj	oi
22:05	tomoj	the problem is with the java code anyway
22:05	tomoj	so I guess compojure's statefulness in this case is not actually so bad
22:05	tomoj	was annoying to debug thoug
22:06	tomoj	now, though, the problem is inside apache commons
22:06	tomoj	which I really don't want to hack up with debugging crap
22:16	tomoj	hah
22:17	tomoj	a few hours wasted because the objective-c code my partner copied from the internet had two extra hyphens in a string literal
23:05	JonSmith	arohner: I have a patch for scriptjure that makes array access possible
23:17	yuuki	is there a function to show the definiton of a function?
23:19	chouser	yuuki: clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source
23:19	yuuki	thanks!
23:19	chouser	though it's a bit of a hack -- requires the function be named by a var and the definition be in a source file that's on the classpath.
23:20	devlinsf	And it must be Tuesday
23:20	chouser	it actually reads the source from the clj when you ask, so it could theoretically be out of date.
23:20	yuuki	hmm
23:20	chouser	devlinsf: right! use it quick, before midnight...
23:20	yuuki	I thought that functions might carry around their source
23:21	chouser	they do no
23:21	chouser	not
23:21	tomoj	yuuki: using emacs yet?
23:21	yuuki	nope, vimclojure
23:21	tomoj	oh, maybe they have something?
23:21	yuuki	I was hoping to inspect the definition of m-bind
23:22	tomoj	emacs has yelled at me for trying to compile files that are in jars, and I guess I'm thankful
23:22	tomoj	not sure what I was thinking really
23:22	chouser	yuuki: should work. (source m-bind)
23:22	yuuki	(defsymbolmacro m-bind m-bind)
23:23	chouser	heh. that's what it said?
23:23	tomoj	@def m-bind
23:23	tomoj	how do you do it
23:24	tomoj	ah
23:24	tomoj	m-bind doesn't really have a definition, does it?
23:24	yuuki	I don't know?
23:24	yuuki	I was hoping clojure would tell me :)
23:25	tomoj	I think it did
23:25	tomoj	in a strange way
23:25	somnium	yuuki: try (source monad)
23:27	tomoj	I guess I should try to learn how to use clojure's monads sometime
23:27	yuuki	I am trying to understand the idea of monads
23:27	tomoj	for me, clojure tutorials I read were confusing
23:27	tomoj	made more sense in haskell
23:27	tomoj	but I guess it's just a confusing subject
23:28	somnium	the fact that clojure fns are typeless makes it still harder to reason about (for me)
23:29	devlinsf	I get the impression that they aren't required as much in Clojure
23:29	yuuki	the idea of using monads to do I/O without side effects reminds me of plausible deniability for mob bosses
23:29	yuuki	"What if Johnny were to ... disappear?"
23:30	devlinsf	:)
23:31	JonSmith	you could write a macro to put the source in metadata
23:31	JonSmith	but it might be inefficient
23:32	devlinsf	JonSmith: And you lose it when you partial
23:32	JonSmith	right that would be bad
23:32	tomoj	somnium: yeah, when I played with some monad clojure tutorial code, I just got back fns
23:32	tomoj	with their ugly names
23:32	tomoj	and no way to tell their types
23:33	tomoj	then gave up :(
23:33	somnium	Ive been experimenting with a deftype that implements ifn and has :source and :type fields, could extend it to partias args too
23:33	somnium	I think metadata on fns will really come in handy
23:33	devlinsf	It can be dangerous, though
23:33	JonSmith	would be neat if you wanted to do reflection
23:34	devlinsf	That's exactly what you don't want to do
23:34	chouser	fns support metadata now
23:34	JonSmith	well yeah, most of the time :-)
23:34	tomoj	devlinsf: are you the full disclojure person?
23:34	devlinsf	chouser: Oh, that's new
23:34	chouser	devlinsf: yes
23:34	yuuki	is being purely functional important in clojure?
23:34	devlinsf	The same
23:34	somnium	Id just like to be able to do (:type (*comp f g h)) and get back (seqable -> seqable -> seqable) or something similar
23:35	JonSmith	but if you had a specific purpose like code that bugfixes itself, it could be neat
23:35	chouser	,(meta (with-meta take {:my :meta}))
23:35	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException
23:35	devlinsf	somnium: What about (comp f identity g)
23:35	chouser	ah, well, that works in master
23:36	somnium	devlinsf: ah well, the types would have to live in the type-system defined by *comp I guess
23:36	tomoj	somnium: isn't that anti-clojurian?
23:36	somnium	oh, its in master already? time to upgrade
23:37	devlinsf	somnium: Granted, in some respects I'd like that too. It would be nice to define a protocol that guarenteed a certain type
23:37	somnium	tomoj: its just an experiment
23:37	somnium	I was playing with a multimethod that could compose fns of various types safely
23:37	devlinsf	somnium: Really? That'd be cool to see.
23:37	devlinsf	Link?
23:38	somnium	hmm, I can put some in a gist I guess
23:38	devlinsf	somnium: If you get a chance
23:39	somnium	ah, found it
23:40	somnium	http://gist.github.com/300031
23:40	somnium	was just playing with at the repl (a week or two ago), no idea if I left it broken or not
23:41	tomoj	devlinsf: I'd pay for an episode on datatypes/protocols
23:41	tomoj	:)
23:41	devlinsf	somnium: Just checking out new ideas
23:41	devlinsf	$100 :-p
23:42	devlinsf	tomoj: They are so on the list. I'm just waiting to get closer to a release of 1.2 I don't want to cover something while Rich is still working out his own ideas.
23:43	tomoj	good thinking
23:43	devlinsf	I'm thinking to seriously start work when 1.2 is in late beta/RC1
23:47	somnium	compojure handlers are like (m -> m), and middleware is like ((m -> m) -> (m -> m))
23:49	somnium	but sometimes middleware operates on m1 or m2 or both, wondering if there's some way to make that composition more explicit/transparent
23:54	somnium	devlinsf: btw, I really liked your & and p aliases, started using them myself
23:55	devlinsf	somnium: I noticed :)
23:55	devlinsf	somnium: People love 'em or hate em
23:57	devlinsf	somnium: Interesting code. I'll have to sleep on it to fully get it. That, and I need to get a basic unstanding of Haskell
23:59	somnium	Ive only solved euler #1 and read monad tutorials in haskell so far :)
23:59	devlinsf	Oh, okay. Then where do your A,B,C... types come from?