#clojure – 2010-02-08

2010-02-08

01:51	ajazz	hello, I have map {:a 2 :b 4}, how I can multiply each value on 3 to get {:a 6 :b 12}? I have solution but it's ugly.
01:51	ajazz	http://pastebin.com/d76128f06
02:09	hoeck	ajazz: I don't think your solution is ugly
02:17	hoeck	ajazz: however, if you're interested, here are two other ways: http://pastebin.com/m3136c152
02:18	hoeck	ajazz: and, by the way, predicate taking functions have usually the function as the first argument and the sequences, maps, whatever as the second argument in clojure
02:41	LauJensen	Good morning
03:05	ajazz	thank you
04:44	ned	http://pastie.org/814387 does anyone know why that would happen?
04:44	ned	it was working fine previously, the exact same code, and now it doesnt seem to work
04:49	LauJensen	Are you sure that you evaluated process-line ?
04:50	LauJensen	And if you're running this from the REPL, make sure you're actually in the tokenize namespace
04:52	ned	LauJensen, that was it. thank you sir.
04:52	LauJensen	np
04:56	spariev	LauJensen: hi. Could you shed some light on state of reworked ClojureQL API ? Is it ok to use it now or I'll be better off with stable version
04:58	LauJensen	sec
05:00	LauJensen	spariev: I am currently reviewing and extending on Meikels work on the 2.0 Frontend - I hope to complete that process within a couple of weeks. Once thats done, it will be the preferred version to work with, but now its not adviseable
05:01	spariev	laujensen: ok, thanks
05:03	LauJensen	np
05:23	ordnungswidrig	hi, all
05:25	LauJensen	yo
05:26	achew22	Is there a good tutorial on getting started with clojure?
05:28	vu3rdd	does completions work for java classes in slime? It doesn't seem to work for me.
05:29	LauJensen	achew22: setting up IDE or actually coding?
05:29	achew22	I'm interested in writing code
05:30	LauJensen	achew22: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/blog/
05:30	achew22	I'm having difficulty writing a function that does more than just return a single value
05:30	achew22	that is, I would like to check 4 or 5 if statements
05:30	LauJensen	Thats my blog, there are many easy to follow tutorial style articles, if you have questions shoot them off in here - myself or someone else will be able to answer
05:30	achew22	and I don't exactly understand how to "return" something from a function
05:30	achew22	quotes because I'm not sure that's the best way to think of it, I have seen some stuff about "yielding"
05:31	LauJensen	ok
05:31	LauJensen	http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/02/clojure-list-comprehension/
05:31	LauJensen	Start with that one, shows you how to build lists using the for loop, mimics yielding
05:32	achew22	LauJensen: I also really liked reading the article on the reddit clone when it hit HN a few weeks ago
05:32	achew22	maybe more recently than that
05:32	LauJensen	Then try this one: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/beating-the-arc-challenge-in-clojure/
05:32	LauJensen	Also super simple
05:32	LauJensen	achew22: Great :)
05:32	achew22	keep it up, that article was why I started looking at clojure over CL or straight lisp
05:33	LauJensen	And finally this one, which shows a lot of diversity http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/rosetta-serving-dish-4/
05:33	LauJensen	Ah really? Great - I'm glad to hear it!! :)
05:34	achew22	also, keep submitting it to HN or else I won't read it ;)
05:34	achew22	that's equally important
05:35	LauJensen	I never do
05:35	achew22	hrm... then someone is doing you a favor. You might try submitting it yourself then you will be able to read the feedback from those guys
05:37	LauJensen	When I start getting a lot of traffic, I usually drop by to check out the comments
05:40	achew22	Would this make more sense if I had a lisp or java background?
05:46	LauJensen	That I don't submit links to HN? :)
05:46	achew22	No, Clojure as a general idea
05:47	LauJensen	For Java Interop, a Java background helps of course. Lisp takes a while to learn, but the main principles are extremely simple - So practice gets you far
05:47	LauJensen	The functional mindset takes a while to acquire, but is supremely important - this is where the actual work is
05:47	achew22	Okay, well I've been looking for a while. How do you typecast something to a string?
05:47	LauJensen	#¨String s
05:47	achew22	really?
05:48	somnium	achew22: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html << might be useful
05:48	LauJensen	Thats not casting as much as adding a hint, which many times is what you want
05:48	achew22	but the documentation talks about hinting
05:48	achew22	and it only has stuff for basic types (int, float, bool) excluding strings
05:48	LauJensen	,(apply str [\a \b \c])
05:48	clojurebot	"abc"
05:48	LauJensen	achew22: what I showed you first was a hint
05:48	LauJensen	Second was characters to string
05:48	LauJensen	(str \a)
05:49	achew22	Is that a double quote after the #?
05:49	LauJensen	No
05:50	achew22	do you have a preferred codepad?
05:51	LauJensen	codepad?
05:52	achew22	pastebin
05:52	LauJensen	~paste
05:52	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
05:52	Chousuke	the reader macro for type hinting is #^, not #¨ :P
05:52	achew22	Okay, is this absolutely insane http://codepad.org/8dfzxain ?
05:53	LauJensen	ah, sorry I hit the wrong key
05:53	Chousuke	I think there's an odd? predicate already
05:53	Chousuke	,(doc odd?)
05:53	clojurebot	"([n]); Returns true if n is odd, throws an exception if n is not an integer"
05:53	LauJensen	achew22: Read up on cond and condp
05:53	LauJensen	,(condp = 5 even? "Its even" odd? "Its odd" :else "huh?")
05:53	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: 5
05:54	Chousuke	I really can't tell what those ands are doing there
05:54	LauJensen	Chousuke: Its a homemade cond
05:54	somnium	wouldnt that be nested ifs?
05:54	Chousuke	but it returns true if all of those return true
05:55	Chousuke	also, (int x) is not for converting strings to integers
05:56	Chousuke	you'll want Integer/parseInt
05:56	avarus	hello
05:58	achew22	Okay, so you said that #^String hints something to a string
05:58	TheBusby	Arg, so "(use 'clojure.contrib.http.agent)" now throws a state exception "bytes already refers to: #'clojure.core/bytes in namespace: user" in 1.1.0
05:58	achew22	but it says that an Integer can't be cast to a clojure.lang.IFn
05:59	TheBusby	works fine in 1.0, but is bugged in 1.1.0 ?
06:00	TheBusby	can anyone else replicate this please?
06:00	tomoj	replicated
06:00	tomoj	,(doc bytes)
06:00	clojurebot	"([xs]); Casts to bytes[]"
06:00	tomoj	if you like you could hide that
06:00	TheBusby	tomoj: do tell
06:00	TheBusby	ahh, :only?
06:01	tomoj	I haven't ever needed to do this yet, but I believe in your ns declaration use (:refer-clojure :exclude (bytes))
06:01	tomoj	something like that
06:01	somnium	,(require '[clojure.contrib.http.agent :as http])
06:01	clojurebot	nil
06:01	somnium	http/bytes
06:02	somnium	or like that
06:02	tomoj	that's what I've been doing
06:02	TheBusby	so then http.http-agent?
06:03	tomoj	/
06:03	tomoj	or, like you say, you could :use :only to pick out what you need
06:03	TheBusby	I guess my lazy-ness regarding including everything is catching up to me
06:03	TheBusby	still that's kind of a nasty surprise
06:03	tomoj	I kind of like that or :require :as better since it makes it easier to tell where a function is coming from
06:03	opqdonut	any indentation guidelines?
06:03	tomoj	though M-. is amazing
06:03	TheBusby	ah, good point
06:04	tomoj	clojurebot: style?
06:04	clojurebot	style is http://paste.lisp.org/display/81021
06:04	tomoj	hmm
06:04	tomoj	clojurebot: style guidelines?
06:04	clojurebot	Huh?
06:04	konr	I need to write a program that generates a pdf file, but Clojure's startup time makes a stand-alone program dedicated to that unacceptably slow. What are the alternatives? I'm considering creating a server, containing this and possibly other utilities, to minimize the problem.
06:04	TheBusby	nailgun
06:04	TheBusby	http://martiansoftware.com/nailgun/index.html
06:05	tomoj	opqdonut: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
06:05	TheBusby	tomoj &　somnium: thanks!
06:05	konr	TheBusby: hmm, the same used by vimclojure, it seems... thanks!
06:11	avarus	konr: if the pdf is simple you could use lout
06:11	avarus	konr: that would be fast only with simple documents :)
06:12	avarus	or embed jetty!
06:12	avarus	and wait for a request :)
06:13	avarus	you could use compojure as a web framework...makes embedding probably easier
06:13	AWizzArd	yes, the pdf producing code could be a RESTful webservice.
06:14	AWizzArd	Then your shell tool can make a http request to your localhost or a google apps application which generates in Compojure the pdf.
06:16	tomoj	facebook developer wiki has been down for.. must be at least 48 hours now :(
06:30	avarus	guys...clojure-mode is fine :)...I did the step and learned some emacs basics
06:43	raek	I want to make a subclass of Exception, (how do\|should) I do it in clojure?
06:54	raek	hmm, what happened to gen-and-load-class?
06:56	hoeck	raek: its gen-class now, preferably used within (ns :gen-class <gen-class-args>)
06:57	hoeck	raek: for instant interface implementation, deftype is the way to go (in the latest 1.2-master branch)
06:58	raek	"When not compiling, does
06:58	raek	nothing."
06:58	raek	is this true for :gen-class too?
07:00	hoeck	raek: yes, you have to compile in order to generate a working .class
07:01	raek	maybe deftype will simplify this...
07:02	ordnungswidrig	does anybody know about a validation lib for clojure?
07:05	hoeck	raek: it greatly simplifies implementing interfaces, and creates a named type when its AOT compiled
07:14	esj	tomoj: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/d090b5599909497c
07:26	tomoj	esj: cool, thanks
07:26	tomoj	avarus: great!
07:44	avarus	it's really awesome how clojure-mode works
07:44	caljunior	,(let [boing (atom nil)])
07:44	clojurebot	nil
07:44	avarus	that's not comparable to gedit, textmate etc...
07:44	tomoj	"Use (:property foo) to access objects, but (foo :property) to reach into collections. The difference communicates what you think foo is."
07:44	tomoj	can someone say that in different terms?
07:45	tomoj	I don't understand what it means by "access objects" vs "reach into collections"
07:45	caljunior	(let [boing (atom nil)] (swap! boing assoc 1))
07:45	tomoj	avarus: :P told you you'd see the light
07:45	caljunior	,(let [boing (atom nil)] (swap! boing assoc 1))
07:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$assoc
07:46	avarus	hehe
07:46	tomoj	I didn't know you could assoc nil
07:46	avarus	can clojurebot also do swing guis? :P
07:46	caljunior	how do I swap the value of the atom?
07:46	Chousuke	tomoj: in the former case, foo represents something opaque, while in the latter case it's just a collection (and you're allowed to mess with its contents freely)
07:47	caljunior	tomoj: you can if nil is in a vector or a set.
07:47	tomoj	hmm, how is it things become able to be passed as the arg to a keyword function?
07:48	tomoj	,(assoc nil :foo :bar)
07:48	clojurebot	{:foo :bar}
07:48	tomoj	that's what I meant
07:48	Chousuke	tomoj: keywords are functions of associative things.
07:48	Chousuke	,(ifn? :foo)
07:48	clojurebot	true
07:49	tomoj	so besides collections, that would be.. datatypes?
07:49	Chousuke	I think the things need to implement IAssociative
07:49	somnium	wow, you can assoc onto nil, is that accidental (seq {}) or something?
07:50	Chousuke	somnium: I guess nil is just treated as an empty map.
07:50	tomoj	I'm just trying to think of examples where you're doing (:property foo) and foo is not a collection
07:50	AWizzArd	somnium: convenience functionaliy
07:50	AWizzArd	+t
07:50	Chousuke	tomoj: the difference between an object and a collection is purely logical
07:51	Chousuke	tomoj: you might have {:foo bar} represent an object so you would access it as (:foo ...)
07:51	tomoj	oh, "what you think foo is", I see
07:52	tomoj	on the other hand you might have a map of ids -> objects or the like, which would be (foo :an-id), then?
07:52	tomoj	I think I understand now, thanks
07:56	avarus	mhmh...
07:56	avarus	"clojure.contrib.sql/with-connection dbc (clojure.contrib.sql/transaction" <-- is there a "way" to make that short? :P
07:56	tomoj	caljunior: you mean just reset it, ignoring what it was before?
07:57	tomoj	swap! wants a function to call with the value of the atom as a first arg
07:57	tomoj	in your example, assoc takes at least 3 args and you only have 2 (nil and 1)
07:57	tomoj	,(let [boing (atom nil)] (swap! boing assoc 1 2))
07:57	clojurebot	{1 2}
07:58	tomoj	and,
07:58	tomoj	,(doc reset!)
07:58	clojurebot	"([atom newval]); Sets the value of atom to newval without regard for the current value. Returns newval."
07:59	Chousuke	avarus: (require '[clojure.contrib.sql :as sql])?
07:59	caljunior	tomoj: I just want to reset it.
07:59	avarus	Chousuke: oh! thx :)
07:59	avarus	haven't thought about that :=)
08:00	caljunior	tomoj: I guess reset! would work.
08:04	tomoj	if you just want to reset it, why are you guessing?
08:04	tomoj	that's exactly what reset! does, in the simplest way I can imagine
08:14	caljunior	tomoj: yes. I guess your right :-)
08:15	caljunior	you're
08:34	jeffmess	whats the correct way to install a clojure library? I ran mvn install which resulted in a clojure-http-client-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.jar file, I placed the file in my classpath but in clj when I run (use 'clojure.http.client) I get a java.io.FileNotFoundException. However this is definitely in my classpath, i can use clojure.contrib lib fine.
08:35	jeffmess	clojure noob, so im not sure if i'm meant to run another build tool on the lib?
08:36	chouser	FileNotFound is not what I'd expect -- can you paste the entire stack trace somewhere?
08:36	chouser	lisppaste8: url?
08:36	chouser	hm.
08:36	jeffmess	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/http/client__init.class or clojure/http/client.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
08:36	chouser	oh. I guess that is what I'd expect. :-/
08:38	jeffmess	hmm, the jar file is in my .clojure file in the same dir
08:38	chouser	the .jar itself needs to be named on your classpath, not just the directory where the .jar is.
08:38	tomoj	jeffmess: lein :)
08:39	jeffmess	hmm, okay
08:43	avarus	I love lein
08:43	avarus	lein jar, thank you, let's go on!
08:46	a_strange_guy	hi there
08:46	avarus	hi a_strange_guy
08:46	a_strange_guy	I need some advice
08:47	a_strange_guy	trying to write a pattern matching macro
08:47	a_strange_guy	like http://www.brool.com/index.php/pattern-matching-in-clojure
08:47	a_strange_guy	but without the limitations
08:48	a_strange_guy	matching sequential things works already
08:49	a_strange_guy	but before releasing it, i want to add matching against asossotiative things
08:49	a_strange_guy	so that it works like the builtin destructuring in clojure
08:51	a_strange_guy	is there a fast way to check if a map(or map-like ting) contains ONLY some specified keys?
08:52	chouser	I guess I'd use 'count' to make sure the map doesn't have too many keys, then check each of the ones I want to be there -- if they all are, it matched.
08:53	a_strange_guy	hmm, does (associative? x) imply that you can (count x)?
08:53	chouser	That should be O(n log32 n) worst-case, O(1) best case. I don't think you'll get any better than that.
08:54	chouser	Hm... Probably not in the abstract, but vectors, hash-maps, and sorted-maps are all 'counted?'
08:55	tomoj	they will all respond to count, at least
08:55	a_strange_guy	and for deftypes?
08:55	a_strange_guy	no guarantees?
08:56	a_strange_guy	matching against types is a really nice usecase
08:57	somnium	a_strange_guy: deftypes could implement associative or sequential
08:59	chouser	all Associative have a .count method which (count x) will use, so at least it will work, though as I said in the abstract that could be O(n)
08:59	tomoj	just looked to see that assoc is special-cased on nil to give a new array-map
08:59	chouser	so if a deftype extends Associative it ought to implement 'count'
09:02	a_strange_guy	but only if it does implement Associative
09:03	cow-orker	it seems (Klass.) is more popular than (new Klass), any particular reason for this?
09:05	chouser	cow-orker: two reasons I've noticed. One is it feels more declarative. The other is it plays nicer with ->
09:05	a_strange_guy	cow-orker: and it's shorter xD
09:05	chouser	,(-> "5" Integer.)
09:05	clojurebot	5
09:05	Chousuke	silly use of -> though :P
09:06	a_strange_guy	thanks everybody, will post the pm-macro soon
09:07	Chousuke	I wonder if (Integer. "5") is actually preferable to (Integer/valueOf "5") nowadays
09:08	fdaoud	or even (Integer/parseInt "5")
09:09	avarus	mhh... contrib.sql makes 'nextval(''users_seq'') out of "nextval('users_seq')"
09:10	cow-orker	ok, thanks!
09:12	chouser	Chousuke: well, sure it's silly with nothing else in the pipeline.
09:12	chouser	Chousuke: replace with the appropriate combination of Reader and Stream ctors as needed to be compelling. :-)
09:13	fdaoud	,(apply str (map (comp char +) (map int "Want FP without the fuss") [-3 17 11 -84 35 38 31 74 -2 9 -15 -72 -6 -1 -77 83 -84 -7 18 69 13 -6 -6 -14]))
09:13	clojurebot	"Try Clojure it's awesome"
09:14	chouser	heh
09:15	fdaoud	:-)
09:30	LauJensen	Nice :) chouser, make the t-shirt !
09:30	chouser	hmm...
09:30	chouser	that's a lot of numbers for a t-shirt
09:31	LauJensen	(iterate fn -3) - work out what fn is then
09:31	chouser	"q ¾r}e,ns'Ç m¹nnf"
09:31	chouser	I guess that's worse.
09:33	avarus	how can I escape
09:33	avarus	oops :)
09:34	chouser	avarus: try the ductwork. Always works in the movies.
09:34	avarus	how can I escape nextval('users_seq') properly? :)
09:35	avarus	when I put it in " contrib.sql even tries to escape the '
09:35	avarus	so it looks wrong to pgsql (of course)
09:37	fdaoud	,(apply str (map (comp char +) (map int "Want FP without the fuss") [-3 17 11 -84 35 38 31 74 -2 9 -15 -72 -6 -1 -77 83 -84 -7 18 69 13 -6 -6 -14]))
09:37	clojurebot	"Try Clojure it's awesome"
09:37	fdaoud	oops sorry that was supposed to be something different
09:40	chouser	,(apply str (map (comp char +) (map int (.toUpperCase "Want FP without the fuss")) (map int "Qe_ wZS~R]E,NS' MfyaNNF") (repeat -84)))
09:40	clojurebot	"TRY CLOJURE IT'￬MZj-@OE"
09:40	chouser	heh. oops.
09:42	fdaoud	lol
09:45	chouser	,(apply str (map (comp char +) (map int (.toUpperCase "Want FP without the fuss")) (map int "Qe_ wZS~R]E,NS'\207 MfyaNNF") (repeat -84)))
09:45	clojurebot	"TRY CLOJURE IT'S AWESOME"
09:46	chouser	fdaoud: very slightly shorter, but not really better than your original.
09:47	fdaoud	chouser: guess it's just a matter of taste, whether you're a chars person or a numbers person :)
09:48	avarus	ah fuck, I create a trigger poh
09:48	avarus	the db has to set the id :P
09:49	ordnungswidrig	hmm, what is an easy way to the values of a map to a map of the mapped values?
09:49	ordnungswidrig	(map-map inc { :a 1 :b 2 }) -> { :a 2 :b 3 }
09:49	ordnungswidrig	s/easy/idiomatic/
09:50	AWizzArd	zipmap
09:50	AWizzArd	,(let [x {:a 1, :b 2}] (zipmap (vals x) (keys x)))
09:50	clojurebot	{2 :b, 1 :a}
09:50	chouser	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}] (zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m))))
09:50	clojurebot	{:b 3, :a 2}
09:52	fdaoud	,(apply str (map (comp char #(- % 1)) (map int "Qmfbtf!epo(u!txfbs!;.*")))
09:52	clojurebot	"Please don't swear :-)"
09:52	ordnungswidrig	chouser: thx
09:55	avarus	yes, my pgsql trigge is a nice workaround :)
09:55	avarus	*happy
09:56	avarus	even cleaner as there is now no specific pgsql code in the "app"
09:57	ordnungswidrig	and how would I merge to maps so that { :a 1 :b 2 } { :a "a" :c "c" } would give { :a [1 "a"] :b [2] :c ["c"] }?
09:58	ordnungswidrig	I tried merge-with but I failed on the combinator
09:58	chouser	,(->> "Clojure" (map int) (map + (map int "ivatefk") (repeat -107)) (map char) (apply str))
09:58	clojurebot	"Awesome"
09:58	avarus	freak
09:58	fdaoud	lol
10:00	ordnungswidrig	chouser: you'd better switch to #haskell or even #pfhaskell :-)
10:01	chouser	yikes. In that case, I take it all back.
10:03	esj	chouser: your outburst brings me into mind of having too much coffee, so I shall go brew some now.
10:03	chouser	,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k (conj (m k []) v))) {} (concat {:a 1 :b 2} {:a "a" :c "c"}))
10:03	clojurebot	{:c ["c"], :b [2], :a [1 "a"]}
10:03	chouser	ordnungswidrig: that might work -- not sure if it's best.
10:04	fdaoud	,(apply str (map (comp char +) (map int "Haskell") [-5 11 -4 -1 16 6 -7]))
10:04	clojurebot	"Clojure"
10:04	ordnungswidrig	chouser: hmm, I just notice I need are different result: {:a [1 "a"] :b [2 nil] :c [nil "c"]}
10:05	AWizzArd	chouser: charge 50 cents per LOC ;)
10:05	ordnungswidrig	chouser: I could your result with merge-with… But I need the nil.
10:05	AWizzArd	you can explicitly insert it
10:05	tomoj	doesn't merge-with only call the function when there are duplicate keys?
10:06	tomoj	would be nice to be able to also supply a function to wrap an unduplicated value
10:06	chouser	yeah, I don't think merge-with would work for either set of results
10:06	tomoj	er, value for an unduplicated key
10:07	AWizzArd	maybe this is so specific that a hand-written reduce/loop is the best route
10:07	tomoj	ordnungswidrig: do you really need them in order?
10:07	tomoj	the vectors in the result, I mean
10:08	chouser	AWizzArd: take it back!
10:08	chouser	reduce should be sufficient.
10:09	AWizzArd	Taking back what?
10:09	chouser	your advice to use loop/recur. :-)
10:10	ordnungswidrig	(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k [(m k) v])) { :a 1 :b 2} { :a "a" :c "c"})
10:10	ordnungswidrig	,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k [(m k) v])) { :a 1 :b 2} { :a "a" :c "c"})
10:10	clojurebot	{:c [nil "c"], :a [1 "a"], :b 2}
10:10	ordnungswidrig	here we go
10:11	ordnungswidrig	In my case I need only the key are in the first map :-)
10:11	AWizzArd	chouser: I would suggest reduce, as this can pretty much solve any looping requirements. Just sometimes a loop can be more readable and less clumsy. But for this case yeah, reduce is a good choice.
10:11	ordnungswidrig	however always having a seq values whould be nice...
10:11	chouser	ordnungswidrig: gah. quit changing your requirements!
10:11	chouser	ordnungswidrig: so you're satisfied?
10:12	ordnungswidrig	chouser: this is agile dev .-) Not pair-programming but irc-channel-croud-programming.
10:13	chouser	ordnungswidrig: in that case you should have started with a test, right?
10:14	ordnungswidrig	the test was wrong. final spec: (f { :a 1 :b 2 } { :b "b" :c "c" }) -> { :a [1 nil] :b [2 "b"]}
10:17	ordnungswidrig	,((fn [m1 m2] (map (fn [k] [(m1 k) (m2 k)]) (keys m1))) { :a 1 :b 2} { :b "b" :c "c" })
10:17	clojurebot	([1 nil] [2 "b"])
10:20	ordnungswidrig	,((fn [m1 m2] (apply hash-map (map (fn [k] [k [(m1 k) (m2 k)]]) (keys m1)))) { :a 1 :b 2} { :b "b" :c "c" })
10:20	clojurebot	{[:a [1 nil]] [:b [2 "b"]]}
10:20	ordnungswidrig	ah.
10:21	AWizzArd	chouser: btw, did you see that I orgininally suggested reduce/loop? Maybe you misread it as recur/loop
10:21	ordnungswidrig	is the usage of hash-map fine, here?
10:21	AWizzArd	ordnungswidrig: yes
10:21	chouser	AWizzArd: ah, indeed I did. sorry.
10:23	AWizzArd	chouser: btw, I made progress with the transaction stuff today and can hopefully report success tomorrow.
10:24	chouser	cool
10:35	DeusExPikachu	taking a poll, how many people directly depend on the function start-repl in swank.clj in swank-clojure?
10:38	chouser	not me
10:42	DeusExPikachu	ordnungswidrig, do you just use lein swank by typing "lein swank" and don't ever call start-repl yourself?
10:42	tomoj	I didn't know there was a start-repl function
10:42	tomoj	I don't even see it
10:43	ordnungswidrig	ordnungswidrig: right.
10:44	ordnungswidrig	starting clojure as a inferior-lisp started failing for me about 3 month ago. But I am fine with slime-connect and did not mind anymore.
10:52	DeusExPikachu	ordnungswidrig, do you ever run multiple clojure lisps and switch between them?
10:53	ordnungswidrig	DeusExPikachu: umm, nope.
10:53	ordnungswidrig	DeusExPikachu: only accidentl, I assume
10:54	DeusExPikachu	ordnungswidrig, I think using the slime-connect method is actually more flexible then inferior-lisp, and I'm starting to think that its worth doing even on a local machine
11:01	LaPingvino	hello
11:01	AWizzArd	Hallo LaPingvino
11:01	LaPingvino	I am in the compojure-chat as well
11:01	LaPingvino	but everybody there seems asleep
11:02	LaPingvino	can I ask a compojure-specific question here?
11:02	AWizzArd	Try it :)
11:02	LaPingvino	are there people out here who could help me?
11:02	AWizzArd	likely
11:02	LaPingvino	well, it's actually quite stupid... I think I am missing some essentials of Compojure
11:03	AWizzArd	Though, the Compojure newsgroup is also very helpful.
11:03	LaPingvino	what is the normal way to get to the request-information?
11:03	LaPingvino	and use it in your software
11:03	AWizzArd	What do you mean by that? What is request-information?
11:03	LaPingvino	the information that is send as a request to the server
11:03	AWizzArd	Each handler that you write is a function which must take a request object (a hash-map).
11:04	Tcepsa	LaPingvino: Do you mean the Get or Post parameters?
11:04	LaPingvino	ah okay
11:04	LaPingvino	how does that look?
11:04	underdev	sexp is natural, sexp is fun, sexp is best when its one on one
11:04	AWizzArd	This is how handlers look: http://compojure.org/docs/handlers
11:05	tomoj	compojurecasts.com is available :)
11:05	LaPingvino	ah okay
11:05	AWizzArd	And the documentation here lists some things that may be available in a request: http://compojure.org/docs/requests
11:05	LaPingvino	and with defroutes?
11:06	tomoj	AWizzArd: what's the deal with returning a vector as a response?
11:06	LaPingvino	I get GET and POST distinguished with defroutes, but it seems that gets somehow in the way of passing the request...
11:06	LaPingvino	it confuses me a bit...
11:06	tomoj	I use [200 response-body], but I saw something else that had three elements
11:07	tomoj	LaPingvino: I do stuff like this:
11:07	tomoj	(GET "/locations" locations/get-handler)
11:07	AWizzArd	tomoj: http://compojure.org/docs/responses
11:07	tomoj	where locations is some other namespace and get-handler a function there
11:07	LaPingvino	sure
11:07	AWizzArd	Allowed is: map, integer and string
11:07	LaPingvino	and how to pass the request data to the handler?
11:07	tomoj	you don't
11:07	AWizzArd	that can be in the result vector, tomoj
11:07	AWizzArd	LaPingvino: this will be done by Compojure for you
11:08	tomoj	(defn get-handler [request] ...)
11:08	LaPingvino	ah okay
11:08	tomoj	the line above sets it up to pass the request to the function
11:08	AWizzArd	LaPingvino: just write functions that you want to call from a client (for example a .html page in a browser).
11:08	LaPingvino	???
11:08	somnium	I always return a map as the response {:status ... :headers ...}
11:08	tomoj	AWizzArd: map is for headers?
11:09	underdev	compojurecasts.com doesn't seem to exist
11:09	AWizzArd	List them in (defroutes LaPingos-Routes (GET "/resource1" function) (POST "/resource2" function2) ...)
11:09	tomoj	underdev: yeah, it's available
11:09	AWizzArd	tomoj: exactly
11:09	tomoj	I see
11:09	tomoj	wonder how multiple values of each type are handled
11:09	LaPingvino	right
11:09	tomoj	gotta find where compojure does this in the source..
11:09	underdev	compojurecasts.com => Oops! This link appears to be broken.
11:09	AWizzArd	tomoj: they get added if possible, last value wins
11:10	LaPingvino	and the functions you list there get called with the handler as first parameter?
11:10	tomoj	aww
11:10	LaPingvino	riiiiiiiiiight :)
11:10	tomoj	last value wins is I guess the least confusing way
11:10	LaPingvino	thanks a lot :)
11:10	AWizzArd	LaPingvino: yes, just write the hello-world function as given in the example
11:10	tomoj	I assume then that assoc-session returns a header map
11:10	LaPingvino	I will have to rewrite a bit then
11:10	AWizzArd	yes
11:11	AWizzArd	you can start with the examples, and then do a minor modification
11:11	LaPingvino	I got a nullpointererror because I had the details wrong...
11:11	LaPingvino	thanks a lot!
11:11	AWizzArd	yes, that will go away
11:11	AWizzArd	np
11:11	AWizzArd	Are you from the east of the NL?
11:11	somnium	tomoj: the sessions are what got me to always return a map
11:11	LaPingvino	AWizzArd: I am from Ede
11:11	LaPingvino	around the middle
11:12	AWizzArd	k
11:12	tomoj	er, session-assoc I meant
11:12	LaPingvino	why?
11:12	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
11:12	AWizzArd	west DE here
11:12	LaPingvino	ah cool :)
11:12	LaPingvino	which city?
11:12	tomoj	I found this way to do it somewhere: [(session-assoc :foo bar) {:status 200}]
11:12	tomoj	now I'm actually confused why that works
11:12	somnium	I wrote a tiny middleware to bind sessions/flash to dynamic vars so they can be accessed and set! downstream (doesnt work with in memory sessions)
11:13	tomoj	since {:status 200} should be interpreted as a header map and overwrite session-assoc's value
11:13	LaPingvino	someone should complete a course or write a book about compojure, as clear as Stu's book
11:13	LaPingvino	think I get it now :)
11:13	LaPingvino	will have to experiment a bit still, but you have helped me a lot :)
11:14	somnium	hopefully the sessions api will be better once they add it to ring
11:14	AWizzArd	LaPingvino: at first Compojure seems overwhelming. But it is amazingly trivial and powerful. There are just some very few core concepts which you need to learn.
11:14	LaPingvino	AWizzArd: I begin to see it :P
11:14	tomoj	hmm, session-assoc returns something like {:session foo}
11:14	LaPingvino	Compojure is a bit more complex than just plain clojure :P
11:14	tomoj	oh, guess the with-session middleware is changing the way that's interpreted
11:14	LaPingvino	but it is great really :)
11:16	tomoj	oi
11:16	tomoj	I'm going to wait till after the refactor to try to understand this stuff in detail
11:17	LaPingvino	tomoj: where are you from? brasil?
11:18	LaPingvino	and which languages do you speak?
11:19	hiredman	oy is yiddish
11:19	tomoj	LaPingvino: US, texas
11:19	tomoj	just english
11:20	tomoj	latin really slowly :P
11:20	somnium	tomoj: the with-session middleware looks for a :session key in the response (but in-memory sessions are broken currently, no way to invalidate a session) and then updates accordingly
11:20	tomoj	ok, but my response is a vector
11:20	somnium	ooh, spoken latin
11:20	tomoj	this is why I am confused
11:21	tomoj	er, I didn't mean spoken :(. unless writing and then reading it out loud counts
11:21	somnium	I dont get the vector mini language, I think its supposed to be sugar, but I got nothing but problems trying to use it
11:21	tomoj	I guess somebody else is turning the vector into a map before with-session sees it
11:21	tomoj	because sessions are working fine :)
11:22	AWizzArd	somnium: what problems?
11:22	tomoj	well, hadn't tried invalidation yet
11:22	AWizzArd	If you want that your handler returns 401 just return this
11:22	AWizzArd	if you want it to return 401 with more text return [401 "No auth data given"]
11:23	AWizzArd	A handler may return an int, a string or a map
11:23	DeusExPikachu	what's the inverse of hash-map?
11:23	somnium	so default is {:status :body} ?
11:23	AWizzArd	If it is an int, then this is the status code for the response
11:23	tomoj	the thing that's confusing me is I'm apparently returning [{:session ..} {:status ..}]
11:23	tomoj	both maps
11:23	AWizzArd	the string ensembles the body of the response, while the map allows you to add extra headers.
11:24	tomoj	and neither are headers :D
11:24	hiredman	rhickey: I've been digging through the compiler and as a learning exercise added a "jop" special form which lets you use java operators directly, example (jop + (int 1) (int 1)) compiles to an iadd instead of a call through Numbers.add, the latest iteration does away with jop and uses #^{:primitive true} (+ (int 1) (int 2)), I am wondering if you would be interested in this?
11:24	somnium	I ended up moving most things into middleware and just using defroutes to call fns
11:24	AWizzArd	somnium: good
11:24	tomoj	yeah, I did that too
11:24	AWizzArd	sounds good
11:24	tomoj	with my namespaces corresponding to restful resources
11:26	rhickey	hiredman: I'm interested in the facility in general, as when we move to cinc, we will need a more generic way to invoke primitive ops. I'm not sure 'jop' is it. On my todo is to run with the experiment I've proposed here to moveto Long as base type
11:26	rhickey	hiredman: be aware though that HotSpot turns the static call into the opcode so there is no perf benefit to what you are doing
11:26	hiredman	sure
11:27	hiredman	perf is not my thing generally :)
11:27	rhickey	so, is the objective just to get a guaranteed primitive op?
11:27	hiredman	yes
11:27	rhickey	because if it has to unbox and rebox, there isn't much benefit to the primitive op
11:28	rhickey	esp rebox
11:28	hiredman	if Numbers.java becomes a protocol it has to bottom out somewhere
11:28	rhickey	Number.java much be the primitive interface
11:28	rhickey	might be
11:29	rhickey	subject to inlining when there is no hotspot-like thing
11:29	hiredman	really? it would not be written in clojure?
11:30	rhickey	dunno. If it was you'd need different bodies for different platforms
11:30	rhickey	actual opcodes can't be Clojure
11:31	hiredman	opcodes being? the Ops stuff in Numbers?
11:31	tomoj	anyone interested in thrift?
11:32	tomoj	I have this vague idea that compiling thrift files to deftypes and protocols could be really awesome
11:33	hiredman	it seems like you wouldn't need different bodies, you just add #^{:primitive true} to calls you want to be primitive and the compiler would take care of what and how
11:37	rhickey	hiredman: begs the question as to what 'primitive true' means
11:37	hiredman	not a fn?
11:43	hiredman	if we are talking about clojure on many hosts it would be up to the compiler on each host to determine what it means, but if we just talk about Clojure, then primitive for + means iadd,fadd,dadd,etc
11:52	mengu_	hi. should i develop my web application with clojure? why? why not rails or why not erlang?
11:53	Chousuke	because Clojure is fun!
11:54	mengu_	that's it?
11:54	cp2	well mengu_, if we told you, we would have to kill you
11:55	nuba	what did you expect? the answers for all life's questions chewed up for you?
11:55	rhickey	hiredman: then the semantics would change, potentially
11:55	Chousuke	well, I can't give you a bullet-list of features, because taken individually almost every other language is capable of the same things.
11:55	pjackson	mengu_: It's very capable too.
11:55	Chousuke	DSL's, concurrency, the JVM, functional programming, etc...
11:55	nuba	go to #[whatever] and expect to hear [whatever] is better
11:56	Chousuke	but it's how all those things work together that makes Clojure special.
11:56	nuba	you should read and play with it a little
11:56	tomoj	one problem I have with clojure is that we don't have the kind of community that e.g. rails has, yet
11:56	tomoj	so for example I couldn't just script/plugin install something to make my compojure app take image uploads and resize them
11:56	Chousuke	Though I suppose the STM value/identity concurrency approach is somewhat unique
11:57	tomoj	yet, I'm still sticking with clojure
11:57	hiredman	rhickey: but they aren't going to be the same at that low of a level across hosts anyway
11:57	tomoj	I feel like making up for that problem is easier in clojure than it would be elsewhere, and in the long run I will be more sane with clojure :)
11:57	mengu_	Chousuke: what i am building will be a social network. so it will be all about concurrency. for example rails is fun too. and i am happy with it. but then will i be happy, hopefully, when it grows?
11:58	mengu_	i don't want to make a switch after the run. i just start with the best fitting one at the beginning.
11:58	fdaoud	mengu_: what is compelling to me personally is functional programming and Clojure's simple, consistent syntax. now, when I look at Java, Ruby, Groovy, Python code, the enormous amount of syntax jumps out at me.
11:58	Chousuke	mengu_: I wish I knew the answer. There is not enough data to say anything for certain yet
11:59	rhickey	hiredman: integer add etc certainly could be made so. But only if a decision was made to guarantee that
11:59	Chousuke	mengu_: but I think if you're looking to build something scalable, Clojure is not a bad bet.
12:00	tomoj	I'm more concerned with the health of my code
12:00	tomoj	no tentacles of state squirming around through all different parts of the code
12:00	mengu_	fdaoud: i can accept that for java & groovy but not for py and rb. however from what i have seen, clojure has a different approach to programming at the beginning.
12:02	mengu_	fdaoud: http://clojure.org/rationale that one i'm talking about by the way :9
12:02	mengu_	*:)
12:03	fdaoud	mengu_: you mean you don't accept that I think that py and rb have too much syntax?
12:03	mengu_	compared to java and groovy
12:03	cp2	i wouldn't really say too much syntax, personally i think its more of 'undesirable syntax'
12:04	tomoj	they both certainly have far more syntax than clojure, though
12:04	fdaoud	mengu_: compared to clojure
12:04	fdaoud	e.g. ruby: => , sometimes () around params sometimes not, \|x\| for blocks, do end or { }, the list goes on and on
12:05	tomoj	we have, what, [] {} and #* ?
12:05	alexyk	tomoj: (def tentacles :of-state) :)
12:06	Ober2	ruby you have too many options?
12:06	mengu_	i have another question. for example people build their applications, for say, php or django or rails. and then they say they make their front-end application communicate with a functional language like clojure or erlang. how do they do that?
12:06	Ober2	coughSOAPcough
12:06	Chousuke	Which language has more "semantics" though?
12:06	tomoj	to me it's more like, the structure of a clojure program is pretty damn simple for a computer to understand, and pretty uniform all over
12:07	tomoj	which makes editing much more pleasant
12:07	Chousuke	Clojure has few syntax elements, but each macro in effect creates a new semantic construct. :/
12:07	Ober2	reminds me of initial reviews of lisp code going "where's all the variables and state information?"
12:07	mengu_	tomoj: that got me, for example. http://paste.pocoo.org/show/175201/
12:08	Chousuke	Though in Clojure similar code elements usually mean similar things so it's mitigated.
12:08	tomoj	compared to metaprogramming in ruby, I'll take macros
12:09	somnium	and theres no macroexpand in ruby, just pain :)
12:09	Chousuke	CL suffers somewhat from the lack of different elements :P
12:09	Chousuke	you have to use lists for everything
12:09	Chousuke	so their meaning is overloaded by necessity.
12:10	tomoj	I wonder if other lisps before clojure added [] and {}
12:10	Chousuke	well, in some schemes [] are interchangeable with (), but I don't think that counts .)
12:10	tomoj	apparently elisp has [] vectors
12:11	tomoj	that doesn't really count either, it's elisp :P
12:12	Chousuke	:P
12:12	Chousuke	I got a new monitor today
12:13	Chousuke	I must say, a 24" widescreen LCD looks enormous compared to a 17" CRT
12:13	tomoj	I alternate between 24" widescreen and 10" netbook
12:13	Chousuke	still connected via vga though. the package didn't include a DVI cable. :P
12:15	Chousuke	but since it apparently can handle a fullhd signal I'll bear with it for a moment.
12:19	hiredman	rhickey: just to be clear, is what you are saying is you would like Clojure's, uh, numerical interface, to be higher level and more abstract?
12:29	cp2	Chousuke: 24" is pretty big
12:29	cp2	i use 20" widescreen lcds, and they are plenty big for me
12:29	Chousuke	cp2: yes it is.
12:29	Chousuke	it's got about twice the screen space compared to my old 17" crt :P
12:29	cp2	haha yeah
12:30	cp2	i have some ancient dell crt around somewhere
12:30	cp2	cant stand using it =P
12:30	cp2	makes my head hurt
12:32	cp2	speaking of upgrades, i love my new keyboard
12:33	cp2	got one of those unicomp model m remakes
12:33	cp2	it kicks ass =P
12:33	esj	cool
12:34	esj	i just 'upgraded' to standing desk - tired of back pains
12:34	esj	looking forward to foot pain instead
12:34	cp2	haha
12:34	cp2	i should really get a better chair
12:34	cp2	i think my back has had enough of this one
12:35	rhickey	hiredman: no, I'm just saying it's probably premature to define the interface to low-level arithmetic bytecodes
12:41	noidi	I'd like to write a pure function that adds objects to a collection, returning the new version of the collection. I'd also like the function to return handles to the values in the collection. ...
12:42	noidi	is this something that monads are good for, or should I write a macro?
12:42	hiredman	handles?
12:42	noidi	indices to be exact
12:43	somnium	noidi: could you give an example of the desired return value?
12:43	noidi	in an OO language I'd write something like foo = coll.add(something()); bar = coll.add(something());
12:43	noidi	but doing this in a purely functional way requires me to thread the changed state of the collection through the calls
12:44	hiredman	noidi: if you are conj'ing stuff to a vector the index is (dec (count ...))
12:45	hiredman	,(let [a [] b (conj a 1) onedex (dec (count b))] [b onedex])
12:45	clojurebot	[[1] 0]
12:46	noidi	hmm.. I'll try to come up with an example
12:47	hiredman	it sounds like you want multiple returns values, which you can't have
12:48	hiredman	you could use binding to fake it
12:48	hiredman	(def return1) (binding [return1 nil] (set! return1 idx))
12:50	hiredman	,(doc binding)
12:50	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before. The new bindings are made in parallel (unlike let); all init-exprs are evaluated before the vars are bound to their new values."
12:50	noidi	http://gist.github.com/298397
12:50	hiredman	bah
12:51	hiredman	I think the docs for binding on the website explicitly talking about using binding to communicate up the stack, but it is more commonly used for implicit args
12:51	tomoj	why don't you just do (let [foo (object/new ..) bar (object/new ..)] ...) and then (conj scene foo bar) ?
12:52	Knekk	Good morning
12:53	noidi	tomoj, I don't want the objects themselves, I want handles that I can use to refer to specific objects in the scene
12:54	tomoj	oh, bizarre
12:54	tomoj	doesn't the scene know enough to project the {:foo foo :bar bar} at the end?
12:54	hiredman	why would you want handles, if not to get the objects?
12:55	tomoj	er, I don't know what word was supposed to go where "project" is
12:55	tomoj	construct?
12:55	noidi	yeah, it's all a bit weird at the moment, I'm trying to adjust to pure functional programming so I'm probably doing everything the wrong way :)
12:56	noidi	hiredman, to create a new version of the scene with one object in the scene replaced with an updated version
12:56	hiredman	ah
12:58	noidi	of course I could simply use refs for the objects, and update their values
12:58	noidi	but I'd like to try pure FP and see what the fuss is about :)
12:59	hiredman	you could return pairs
12:59	hiredman	like [[1] 0]
13:02	noidi	yeah, I thought about that
13:03	noidi	but I was hoping that this problem could be solved using monads, somehow, so that I'd have an excuse to learn them :)
13:05	noidi	I guess I'll read Konrad Hinsen's tutorials and look into clojure.contrib.monads
13:07	somnium	noidi: you could use the state monad
13:09	noidi	somnium, great, thanks
13:09	noidi	from the first hit on google, http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/statemonad.html, it appears to solve the exact problem I have
13:10	noidi	or at least I think it does, that horrible Haskell syntax always makes my brain freeze and eyes glaze over
13:12	fmu	with clojure-mode, is there an easy way to dump the result of C-c C-e (lisp-eval-last-sexp) into the file, either plain or as a comment?
13:15	fmu	hmm the mode documentation looks wrong
13:28	tomoj	fmu: eval-print-last-sexp
13:28	tomoj	oh, no
13:29	tomoj	that does elisp only, I guess
13:33	fmu	tomoj: yeah, i tried that. i think this would be a useful thing to have, in particular when demonstrating code to others.
13:33	tomoj	aha
13:33	tomoj	slime-eval-print-last-sexp
13:34	tomoj	that dumps it into the source file on the next line though, which seems odd to me
13:34	tomoj	I remember seeing something that copied a sexp into the repl and evaluated it
13:34	tomoj	but don't remember where
13:34	tomoj	er, it's slime-eval-print-last-expression
13:35	tomoj	(not sexp)
13:35	tomoj	needs slime, of course
13:35	fmu	the sexp variant is useful for stuff that is not toplevel
13:36	fmu	anyway, working perfectly now. must have put slime into some weird state previously.
13:39	tomoj	slime-pprint-eval-last-expression sounds attractive, but doesn't work for me
13:43	scottj	There used to be a function str* (not sure if it was in clojure, contrib, or compojure) that would behave like str but call name I think on arguments that were named. I can't find it, did it get removed, renamed, replaced?
13:45	arohner	scottj: as-str?
13:45	lypanov	has anyone around played with clojure/terracotta?
13:46	scottj	arohner: thanks, maybe it was renamed to that.
14:11	underdev	i laughed so hard
14:12	underdev	http://tcltk.nfshost.com/quantifiedconception.png
14:12	underdev	grabbed it from the paredit presentation
14:14	cemerick	underdev: then you see hardcore scheme impls in perl, like this, and the cycles just keep on going: http://billhails.net/Book/
14:15	tomoj	underdev: where's the paredit presentation?
14:15	cp2	cemerick: oh my....
14:16	tomoj	mudphone's?
14:16	noidi	underdev, here's the original http://xkcd.com/224/
14:17	Raynes	Ioke is painfully slow, and apparently that's expected and intended. :\|
14:17	Raynes	Which is a real mood killer.
14:17	underdev	tx
14:17	underdev	noidi, tx
14:17	underdev	http://www.slideshare.net/mudphone/paredit-preso
14:18	cemerick	Raynes: it's by no means intended to be a production language
14:18	lypanov	Raynes: same crap as the ruby guys gave for years.
14:18	cemerick	AFAIK
14:19	noidi	underdev, and, as always on xkcd, keep your mouse on the strip to see the second punchline
14:19	Raynes	cemerick: After a little discussion with Ola, his interests aren't totally academic. He just doesn't seem to care about performance over expressiveness.
14:19	cemerick	lypanov: no need to start flaming
14:19	cemerick	Raynes: that's about the point at which he'd probably say "patches welcome" :-)
14:21	Raynes	If he has a choice between speed, and more expressiveness, he'll take the latter. I doubt contributions would be very helpful for this particular language. I'm very interested in see where this goes over the next couple of years, if the project holds up.
14:21	Raynes	Even with poor performance, it's still pretty awesome.
14:21	Raynes	Needs moar concurrency.
14:21	underdev	pre-mature optimization and all that...
14:21	cemerick	everyone has different motivations shrug
14:21	underdev	and cowbell
14:27	Chousuke	:P
14:28	underdev	one things for sure, you have to be impressed with kyle oba's command of metasyntatic symbols
14:28	hiredman	bound-fn closes over dynamic scope, right?
14:31	Mec	does a jar file have to be added specifically to the classpath to use, or just the folder?
14:32	stuartsierra	Mec: named on the classpath
14:32	stuartsierra	Mec: Sun Java 6 permits -cp "folder/*"
14:37	Mec	thanks
14:45	avarus	re
14:52	Raynes	"DateTime now notice split("T") second split(":")" holy chain of messages. :>
15:18	LauJensen	To all you Americans, Best In Class is now the 98.460.th most visisted page in the US!! :)
15:22	alexyk	LauJensen: that probably makes it #1 Belgian-made website in the Universe :)
15:23	triyo	no its Danish I think :)
15:23	alexyk	and transitively Danish as well then :)
15:23	LauJensen	Its fun how many people are so ignorant of Danish - On of the first comments I got on the site was "Too dutch for me" ... :)
15:24	alexyk	Belgians got the Chimay and the Trappist preserves, which must be more popular anyways :)
15:24	triyo	When I worked for IBM I flew to Copenhagen a lot
15:24	alexyk	LauJensen: I was at a conference in Copenhagen in 2007, so I should have known
15:26	alexyk	what with all the crossed Øs...
15:27	LauJensen	well... its not too late to appologize
15:27	alexyk	LauJensen: I bow before the Danish people collectively and you individually!
15:28	LauJensen	Alright - You are hereby pardoned by the sovereign pingdom of Denmark
15:28	blakki	is there a better/nicer way to do this? http://pastebin.com/d1202e470
15:28	triyo	member:LauJensenn: I also worked for a Danish shipping company Mærsk
15:28	alexyk	LauJensen: furthermore, I promise to spell København in its original script from now on
15:29	alexyk	pingdom is something network-related, or souped-up cars
15:29	alexyk	souped-up cdr's I meant
15:29	cp2	LauJensen: what is this moonspeak? ahhh!!
15:30	alexyk	triyo: so you're the one koading all those reailway containers passing by everywhere and stacked up high next to Amazon.com in Seattle?
15:30	alexyk	must be pretty string then
15:30	alexyk	strong
15:31	chouser	ok, so that's one downside of manual CPS in clojure ... exception handling.
15:32	chouser	if you're supposed to return a value, throwing an exception is an easy and handy way to report an error
15:32	triyo	alexyk: hhehe, pretty much about 3 years ago. Also if you ever had a shipment delayed. You can prob thank me :) (Wouldn't be the first time we had a freight sent to a wrong location.)
15:33	chouser	if you're supposed to call a callback, you need a secondary mechanism to report the error -- some shared state that you set, some other callback to call instead, some return protocol instead of a simple value, something...
15:34	alexyk	triyo: somebody has to make the world interesting
15:34	somnium	chouser: the error monad to the rescue!?
15:35	neotyk	congrats Lau
15:35	LauJensen	thx :)
15:36	chouser	somnium: I guess I need to know more about monads... :-/
15:36	rhickey	anyone got a Google wave invite they'd like to send my way?
15:36	neotyk	how do I do callbacks idiomatic?
15:36	xp_prg	hi all, I am a mere mortal and I need help understand how to make clojure programs creating a dynamic language with macros etc...
15:36	neotyk	rhickey: everyone
15:37	triyo	alexyk: perishables were the funniest. Client needs it in Cape Town, South Africa and it lands up in Reo, Brazil. No rolling back that transaction.
15:38	arohner	rhickey: sure. What's your email?
15:38	chouser	rhickey: sent
15:38	rhickey	thanks
15:39	rhickey	I noticed in the twitter stream someone was holding a clojure conference on g.wave
15:39	Chousuke	neotyk: callbacks? aren't those just functions? :/
15:40	Chousuke	xp_prg: if you need help, ask a question first :)
15:40	neotyk	Chousuke: true, but have seen agents (c.c.http.agent) used for it
15:41	neotyk	so am wandering how to write real async http client idiomatic way
15:41	chouser	rhickey: in french, apparenly?
15:41	triyo	yup french seems like it ... http://bit.ly/afD0ck
15:42	triyo	I think thats the one in paris
15:43	hiredman	http://googlewavebots.info/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page#Wave_Language_and_Translation_Bots
15:43	hiredman	:D
15:45	underdev	hmmm, anyone know how i can configure paredit-mode and show-paren-mode on by default
15:45	underdev	?
15:46	lancepantz	did the sql libs get removed from clojure-contrib?
15:46	hiredman	clojurebot: translate from fr Syntaxe imbitable et la mauvaise
15:46	clojurebot	Syntax WET and poor
15:46	hiredman	:(
15:46	chouser	heh
15:47	hiredman	clojurebot: translate from fr Je trouve la communaute Scala beaucoup plus interessante
15:47	clojurebot	I found the community much more interesting Scala
15:47	hiredman	:O
15:47	chouser	perhaps we're helpful but boring?
15:47	triyo	underdev: I have this http://gist.github.com/298569
15:48	Tcepsa	underdev: Not sure, but seems like there should be some way to do it in your .emacs file
15:48	blakki	AA
15:48	triyo	underdev that autoloads paredit-mode
15:49	underdev	Tcepsa: ty, that's what i'm trying to do
15:50	triyo	underdev: the autoload part in -> http://gist.github.com/298569
15:50	underdev	triyo: ty! this is much like the code i found on the web, but much cleaner
15:50	Tcepsa	underdev: Hehe, okay, wasn't sure how far along the path you'd gotten.
15:51	fanatico	is there a clearer way to write (reduce f (reduce f list-one) list-two)?
15:51	underdev	triyo: it also makes it more clear how to add the show-paren-mode
15:51	underdev	Tcepsa: tyvm
15:51	LauJensen	fanatico: Check out the latest post on http://clj-me.cgrand.net
15:52	underdev	Tcepsa: where would i store paredit.el so that autoload would find it?
15:52	underdev	Tcepsa: yeah, im editing my .emacs in vim :)
15:52	underdev	is that wrong?
15:53	the-kenny	underdev: Yes
15:53	chouser	underdev: it's how work gets done.
15:53	Tcepsa	underdev: The easiest place would probably be in the site-lisp folder under emacs, unless you want other users to NOT be able to use it
15:53	the-kenny	underdev: You need "alias vim=emacs"
15:53	triyo	underdev: do you have ELPA installed?
15:53	Tcepsa	underdev: As long as it doesn't garbage the file for you ^_^
15:53	cemerick	underdev: oh, that's funny :-)
15:53	underdev	Tcepsa: yeah, thats where it is by default
15:54	underdev	it was suggested i move it to ~/.emacs.d
15:54	underdev	'preciate it
15:54	triyo	underdev: if so the paredit will be already on necessary path. Then just place snippet in my link above in your .emacs, using emcs edit and not vi :)
15:55	Tcepsa	underdev: That would work as well, and ensure that only you would be able to use it (assuming you had multiple users using the same emacs installation; if you're on your own home box it's probably less of an issue)
15:55	underdev	okay
15:55	underdev	cool
15:55	underdev	thanks guys
15:55	cemerick	has anyone knocked together a FSM wrapper for agents?
15:55	Tcepsa	np ^_^
15:55	fanatico	LauJensen: I don't use list comprehension enough. Thanks.
15:56	LauJensen	np
15:58	Tcepsa	underdev: I suspect that you'll also want to add a corresponding (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook <etc.>) if you want to have it automatically activate for Clojure files. Is that right, triyo?
15:59	triyo	Tcepsa: yup spot on
15:59	chouser	that french wave seems to repeat some common misconceptions. :-/
16:00	triyo	Tceps: in the example, I have it hooked into my lisp-mode for CL dev. You'd need the clojure mode one of coruse
16:00	kotarak	french wave?
16:00	Tcepsa	triyo: Great, thanks!
16:00	chouser	though it's hard to tell for sure through the translation.
16:00	chouser	"The lists have a lot of ways, for example (first lst) returns the first element. The methods and rec conj can add an item to the end and beginning of the list, respectively."
16:00	triyo	Tceps: np
16:00	Tcepsa	triyo: (I'm also trying to set it up for my own environment ^_^)
16:00	chouser	kotarak: http://bit.ly/afD0ck
16:02	hiredman	man, I am used to using machine translation with, say, Korean, which is just terrible, the french apears to be very good
16:03	kotarak	chouser: I'm not sure I understand.
16:03	kotarak	chouser: you don't have to explain
16:03	chouser	kotarak: you don't understand what?
16:03	underdev	w00t!!!
16:03	triyo	Tcepsa: cool, have you used paredit before? Its great but can be quirky at first. Once you get use to it, you want look back :)
16:04	triyo	chouser: dont understand french :)
16:04	kotarak	chouser: "french", "wave" and "misconceptions" Is about the content of the wave at the link? Google wave in general? Some involved technology? But it's too late and I'm too tired. So I will count the as another mystery in the wide open of the plane of things I don't understand. :]
16:05	chouser	kotarak: oh, sorry. The Google Wave at that link is all in French, and as best I can tell from the machine translation to English, that content includes some innaccuracies about clojure.
16:06	kotarak	chouser: ah. Ok. I could try with my long rusty french, but I don't have access to the wave. (I think... at least it says "limited" and "get an invitation")
16:07	triyo	any current guestimate as to when Clojure 1.2 is seen to be released and will deftype and defprotocol make it into the release?
16:07	triyo	this question prob pops up a million times. (I haven't been around)
16:08	chouser	kotarak: ah, sorry. :-/ Google wave's are only readable by people with a wave account. It's a shame, though I believe they plan to open up read access eventually.
16:08	Chousuke	triyo: types and protocols will be in the next release, but I don't know of any estimates for a release date :/
16:08	avarus	good night
16:10	chouser	hiredman: are you using a wave translation bot, or something external?
16:10	the-kenny	chouser: They will, someday....
16:10	hiredman	google has some bots on xmpp for translation
16:10	dakrone	chouser/kotarak: Either of you need a wave invite?
16:10	hiredman	I am using one
16:11	hiredman	http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-12-19-n41.html
16:11	chouser	hiredman: ok. I saw someone added "Translatey" and wasn't sure how to use it.
16:11	triyo	Chousuke: been messing about with that branch, loving the additions, so was wandering when it will be in and also if it will remain, to a large degree, in form it is in now.
16:11	hiredman	no idea
16:11	hiredman	http://markfayngersh.com/post/333326632/clojure-bot-is-a-google-wave-robot-that-evaluates <-- I just added this
16:11	hiredman	(not my work)
16:12	dakrone	PM me an email address if you'd like a Google Wave invite
16:12	chouser	yeah, I saw that too.
16:12	Chousuke	triyo: I think there might still be new stuff coming :P
16:12	chouser	hiredman: it used to work for me, but hasn't recently.
16:12	hiredman	:(
16:12	Chousuke	triyo: but I'm not the best person to ask
16:12	the-kenny	dakrone: Same for me. Just PM me if you want one.
16:12	hiredman	clojurebot does xmpp, and so does appengine, so maybe I could just proxy clojurebot's xmpp over appengine
16:13	dakrone	I'm coming into the middle of the conversation here, are you talking about wave robots in clojure?
16:13	hiredman	tangentally
16:15	hiredman	a french wave was found that supposedly is about clojure, but seems to be heavy pro scala
16:15	chouser	I think something about the phrase "french wave" tends to be misleading without context. :-)
16:16	kotarak	could it be a swiss wave?
16:19	somnium	chouser: http://gist.github.com/298581 << is this similar to the kind of boiler plate for CPS exceptions you mentioned?
16:22	chouser	somnium: sure, I think that falls into the "return protocol" category I mentioned.
16:23	chouser	I think.
16:24	somnium	chouser: so, the monad just invisibly chains the protocol together, but can also make all preceding state in the chain available
16:24	somnium	I found a great video by the microsoft guy who interviewed rich
16:25	somnium	http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Brian-Beckman-Dont-fear-the-Monads/
16:25	chouser	But I don't think I can allow that invisibility. Some of my functions need to pass the callback along to other functions, or store it somewhere, etc.
16:25	somnium	hmm
16:25	chouser	though perhaps I still don't understand.
16:26	chouser	I think I have a solution for now. because of 3rd party apis, the callback takes a single arg.
16:27	triyo	talking about monads, I saw this questions few days ago on reddit "What Does Monad Mean?" and somewhat answered -> "Only possessing a single testicle."
16:27	chouser	(fn f [input done-callback] (done-callback (inc input)))
16:27	nDuff	chouser, for folks buying a prerelease of The Joy of Clojure -- are deltas available when previously-released chapters are updated?
16:27	triyo	* somewhat=someone
16:28	hiredman	#(done-callback (inc input))
16:28	chouser	actually, it's worse
16:28	kotarak	monads rock sometimes, monads suck some other times. I'm not sure which times get the bigger share...
16:29	chouser	(fn f [input controller done-callback] (if (valid? input) (done-callback (inc input)) (do (.setFailed controll "invalid input") (done-callback nil)))
16:29	chouser	but because I can control the inner layers here, I can support this instead:
16:30	chouser	(fn f [input _ done-callback] (if (valid? input) (done-callback (inc input)) (done-callback :error "invalid")))
16:30	chouser	which is at least a little less noisy.
16:30	Tcepsa	triyo: Sorry, had to step away for a bit there. I'm new to paredit, but I've heard very good things about it.
16:31	chouser	and although it's entirely legal for f to return without calling done-callback (because it has stored it for later use), it seems unlikely for f to throw an exception and then later try to claim successful completion, so I can catch exceptions thrown by it as a kind of special-case error.
16:31	triyo	Tcepsa: takes a bit of getting use to. I found it a bit tricky at first.
16:31	Tcepsa	triyo: The few things I've seen so far look neat (the autoclosing, for example; I used to hate it in Eclipse, but this implementation looks like it behaves in a way that makes more sense to me)
16:33	Chousuke	Tcepsa: it doesn't really "autoclose"... it just maintains a consistent structure, which happens to require matching parentheses
16:33	somnium	when fns have metadata it might open up some more options. anyway, just a suggestion (trying to get some value from recent haskell reading)
16:34	Tcepsa	Chousuke: Ah, that makes sense.
16:38	chouser	nDuff: I don't think we can provide anything useful like that with the version of the PDF that's up now. That content will be substantially reorganized in an upcoming release.
16:39	chouser	nDuff: However, we may have something like that later -- Manning has a system (that we're not really using for this book yet) to allow per-paragraph comments and change history.
16:41	qbg	Random question: why does let do sequential binding?
16:42	chouser	qbg: because it's no less efficient on the JVM, and people would just write macros to do sequential binding anyway.
16:43	chouser	qbg: is that a sufficient answer? :-)
16:43	triyo	I see wikipedia entry on Macros, says "It is possible to force a capturing macro expansion, but this must be done explicitly. ". Out of interest how is this possible in CLojure? In CL its implicit behavior.
16:44	triyo	Clojure wikipedia page that is -macros section
16:44	hiredman	triyo: you have to use the right combination of quote and syntax-unquote
16:44	qbg	chouser: guess so; someone else asked me that question
16:44	hiredman	triyo: you have to unsyntax-quote ad quoted symbol
16:45	hiredman	an
16:45	hiredman	a
16:45	triyo	hiredman: Oh I see, makes sense.
16:45	hiredman	so you have to really want to capture that name
16:45	chouser	qbg: I guess another answer would be to ask: what would be the benefit of simultaneous binding for 'let'? you can already do it with destructuring and function calls, so no much benefit to yet another way.
16:46	qbg	That helps even more
16:46	qbg	thanks
16:47	chouser	sure
16:48	triyo	hiredman: yup, I know what you mean. I know, 99% cases, variable (name) capture is not desired hence Clojure does the opposite of the way CL handles it. Just was curious how to go about it if need ever comes up and that there is no limitation in actually doing it.
16:54	zenoli	blakki: Here's a possible approach - http://pastebin.com/m1609944f - won't return the remainder as a chunk, though.
16:56	mabes	what is the best way to apply a hashmap into a function defined by defnk? Right now I am having to do: (apply foo (flatten (vec m)))
16:57	mabes	the above works but seems clunky
16:57	Chousuke	mabes: (flatten m) should work just as well
16:57	kotarak	(apply foo (mapcat identity m)) should do without external deps.
16:58	hiredman	kotarak: well he is already using defnk
16:58	kotarak	and he wants to apply a map there, no?
16:58	mabes	yes.. trying just flatten now...
16:58	hiredman	if he wants no deps he could use map destructuring directly
16:59	hiredman	and he could just pass the map
16:59	hiredman	no need to apply
16:59	mabes	simply passing the map does not work
16:59	ordnungswidrig	re
16:59	hiredman	mabes: if you used map destructuring directly it would
16:59	mabes	how would I use destructuring in this context?
17:00	hiredman	~destructuring
17:00	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let
17:00	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys [a b]}] [a b]) {:a 1 :b 2})
17:00	clojurebot	[1 2]
17:00	abrenk	chouser: we talked about epub's of manning's clojure books a couple days ago
17:01	mabes	hiredman: but that is when you create a function.. I am passing the map in this case.. I didn't think you could use destructuring outsite of def and let
17:01	abrenk	chouser: imagine my horror when after downloading a pdf from http://ebook.manning-sandbox.com today and checking the "manning blog" linked to on the left side of the page and it talked about replacing the PDFs with DRM protected ThoutReader format...
17:02	hiredman	mabes: I am saying if you used map destructuring directly when creating the function instead of defnk
17:02	abrenk	chouser: ...turned out it were blog entries from 2004/2005! I guess I should write them about removing those links.
17:02	mabes	ahh, I see. Yeah, I didn't write this function (using congomongo)
17:03	somnium	theres a thread on clojure-dev about unrolling keyword args being preferred style now? (or suggested as preferred)
17:03	hiredman	somnium: unfortunately
17:03	hiredman	but they'll pry it from my cold dead fingers
17:05	somnium	Ive been wondering about having a defnk derivative create a foo and a foo* where foo* just destructures a map, for this case
17:05	ordnungswidrig	re
17:06	hiredman	or just don't use defnk
17:06	somnium	so (fn foo* [opts a b & cs]) can still be overloaded on positional args
17:07	somnium	hiredman: too late in congomongo's case
17:07	hiredman	somnium: someone could file a bug
17:08	kotarak	the map argument for destructuring is not Rich's favoriute
17:08	somnium	thats like filing a bug with php for adding goto to the language :p (which has been done)
17:08	hiredman	I know this function takes a map, you know this function takes map, but it has been contrived not to take a map
17:08	hiredman	somnium: goto is good
17:09	hiredman	it will make writing a scheme to php compiler easier
17:09	somnium	just what Ive always wanted
17:09	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/php.lisp
17:10	hiredman	:D
17:10	hiredman	not scheme though
17:10	somnium	http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=48669
17:10	hiredman	somnium: the "goto considered harmful" is repeated without thought these days
17:11	somnium	hiredman: come on, that was kind of funny
17:11	hiredman	if λ is the ultimate goto, and we can't have λ's, at least let us have goto's
17:12	somnium	for compilers its handy, but I wouldnt want to see it in application code
17:13	hiredman	why not?
17:13	somnium	hmm, because it would it mean I was reading php
17:14	hiredman	I just think it's crazy
17:14	hiredman	I know I am passing a map, the function obviously takes a map
17:15	hiredman	but for some reason we want it to not take a map?
17:15	technomancy	actually, that's one thing Ruby's crazy syntax is really nice for
17:16	technomancy	if the last argument is something like :foo => "bar", :baz => 3 then it wraps it up in a map
17:16	technomancy	best of both worlds (except for the fact that you need those noisy arrows)
17:20	somnium	hiredman: part of its in the declaration too, if you take umpteen keyword args, you also have to specify umpteen default maps, and maybe an arglist too
17:21	hiredman	if you are passing umpteen billion arguments it's take to rewrite
17:21	somnium	my only complaint is defnk prevents arity overloads
17:21	hiredman	and I certainly would not want to use destructuring on umpteen args
17:22	hiredman	I haven't look at the source for defnk, but I bet it uses destructuring as well
17:22	hiredman	~defnk
17:22	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:22	hiredman	~def defnk
17:22	somnium	hiredman: it does)
17:23	hiredman	sigh
17:28	somnium	pythons args, *kwargs is nice
17:31	ordnungswidrig	Is there api doc for contrib on clojure.org somewhere?
17:31	the-kenny	ordnungswidrig: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/
17:31	ordnungswidrig	the-kenny: thanks, I didn't manage to navigate there from clojure.org...
17:32	the-kenny	ordnungswidrig: I always forget how to go to this doc. I have a bookmark for it :)
17:32	kotarak	ordnungswidrig: http://clojure.org/API links there
17:33	ordnungswidrig	kotarak: to bad that the sidebar link "API" links to http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/
17:33	kotarak	ordnungswidrig: I get two links, one for clojure, one for contrib
17:35	kotarak	ordnungswidrig: ah ok. nevermind. misunderstanding. sorr
17:35	kotarak	y
17:35	ordnungswidrig	no problem
17:46	opqdonut	somnium: no no, common lisp's keyword arguments are nice
17:46	opqdonut	i'd like to see a bit richer defn macro in clojure
17:46	neotyk	how do I list methods of java object in clojure?
17:47	hiredman	,(doc show)
17:47	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show;[[x] [x selector]]; With one arg prints all static and instance members of x or (class x). Each member is listed with a number which can be given as 'selector' to return the member object -- the REPL will print more details for that member. The selector also may be a string or regex, in which case only members whose names match 'selector' as a case-insensitive regex will be printed. Finally
17:47	neotyk	hiredman: thanks
17:48	hiredman	,(map #(.getName %) (.getMethods (class {})))
17:48	clojurebot	("seq" "withMeta" "withMeta" "withMeta" "assoc" "assoc" "valAt" "valAt" "entryAt" "without" "assocEx" "asTransient" "asTransient" "count" "iterator" "containsKey" "capacity" "empty" "empty" "create" "equiv" "invoke" "invoke" "get" "put" "hashCode" "clear" "equals" "toString" "isEmpty" "values" "size" "entrySet" "putAll" "cons" "remove" "keySet" "containsValue" "applyTo" "call" "applyToHelper" "throwArity" "invoke" "invoke"
17:51	hiredman	,(map #(.getName %) (.getDeclaredMethods (class {})))
17:51	clojurebot	("seq" "withMeta" "withMeta" "withMeta" "assoc" "assoc" "valAt" "valAt" "entryAt" "without" "assocEx" "asTransient" "asTransient" "createHT" "equalKey" "indexOf" "count" "iterator" "containsKey" "capacity" "empty" "empty" "create" "create")
17:59	seths	has anyone else using swank-clojure noticed that out points to the inferior-lisp buffer while an agent is running?
17:59	seths	disconcerting when you're expecting to see stuff at the REPL
18:00	hiredman	I don't think I've used an agent in slime/swank and I know about this
18:02	neotyk	seths: I've noticed it as well
18:02	hoeck	seths: yes, out is only bound properly in the slime-repl thread
18:11	wlr	seths: invoking (slime-redirect-inferior-output) supposedly redirects all output to the repl. can't personally vouch for all situations, however.
18:20	hoeck	wlr: didn't know about this one, thanks
18:23	wlr	hoeck: neither did i until reading one of bill clementson's blog entries. (don't have the exact one handy right now.)
18:44	hoeck	good Bill, his blogposts really helped me with my first slime setups some years ago
19:11	lancepantz	boo
19:12	joshua-choi	I'm trying to figure out how to call Clojure code from Java code, but with AOT-compiled Clojure. Is the only way to use clojure.lang.RT?
19:12	rhickey	joshua-choi: use RT.var to get the vars for any fns you want to call
19:13	rhickey	you don't need any more of the Java API than that
19:13	rhickey	i.e. you can get the var for require etc
19:13	joshua-choi	The thing I'm afraid of is compiling the code every time I call RT.loadResourceScript(someClojureFilename);.
19:14	joshua-choi	Well, I think that happens, from what I understand
19:14	rhickey	wouldn't require just work?
19:14	joshua-choi	Is require a method in RT?
19:14	underdev	rhickey: its really cool that you are answering questions on the irc channel. ty.
19:14	joshua-choi	I'm looking at a tutorial (I can't find the API of RT).
19:14	joshua-choi	Yes, it is really cool.
19:15	rhickey	joshua-choi: no, use RT.var to get the var for require
19:15	joshua-choi	Ah.
19:15	underdev	im very interested in this topic
19:15	rhickey	you can call any clojure fn that way
19:16	joshua-choi	So, RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(clojureClassFilename); instead of RT.loadResourceScript(clojureScriptFilename);.
19:17	rhickey	well, require would take (at least) the ns as a symbol
19:18	rhickey	joshua-choi: but in general, if you know a clojure fn that does what you need, RT.var it then invoke
19:18	joshua-choi	Do you mean after loading a script or requiring a class?
19:18	rhickey	some RT and other Java API things can make that easier, but you don't need them
19:19	rhickey	joshua-choi: what would you do in Clojure code?
19:19	scottj	With congomongo, is there a way to fetch a record based on it's id as a string not an ObjectId object?
19:19	joshua-choi	(require name.of.namespace) as long as name/of/namespace.clj or .class is findable
19:21	ninjudd	if i have a long running loop with recur, will previous persistent copies of data structures be garbage collected, or does that only happen after the loop is finished?
19:22	Raynes	I think I want to code something in Io now.
19:22	joshua-choi	@rhickey: So: RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(clojureClassNamespace);, as long as the Clojure class is in the classpaths?
19:22	rhickey	Var symbolFn = RT.var("clojure.core", "symbol");
19:22	rhickey	Var requireFn = RT.var("clojure.core", "require");
19:22	rhickey	requireFn.invoke(symbolFn.invoke("name.of.ns"));
19:22	joshua-choi	Okay. I see now; thank you very much.
19:23	rhickey	sure
19:31	ninjudd	if i have a long running loop with recur, will previous persistent copies of data structures be garbage collected, or does that only happen after the loop is finished?
19:32	rhickey	ninjudd: should be collected
19:32	rhickey	if in the loop locals
19:33	ninjudd	ok, specifically, i'm using clojure.lang.PersistentQueue
19:34	ninjudd	it seems like the loop is getting slower and slower, and i wanted to rule out clojure as the problem
19:34	rhickey	ninjudd: with pqueue your productions/consumption ratio will affect collection
19:35	somnium	scottj: no, not if its a mongo-generated id. (ObjectId. "id-string") is all thats needed. (the reason is that :_id can hold anything, mongo-ids are just the default)
19:36	ninjudd	rhickey: right, the queue should never get bigger than a couple of thousand entries, but i'll look into it more
19:40	scottj	somnium: sweet, thanks
19:58	xp_prg	anyone want to tutor me on clojure?
20:10	Tcepsa	I'm attempting to do an implementation of Conway's Game of Life such that each cell is aware of (has a set containing) its neighbors.
20:10	Tcepsa	That way, to determine what state each cell should be in, it can quickly check its neighbors' states.
20:11	Tcepsa	Do I need to use refs to refer to the neighboring cells so that when they change state (from alive to dead or vice versa) their neighbors can see that change instead of still looking at an unchanged version of the cell?
20:11	chouser	if you're going to go that route, yes.
20:12	Tcepsa	chouser: Thanks
20:14	Tcepsa	In that case, do I need to do something special to ensure that all of the cells change state at the same time? I don't want to update a cell before its neighbor knows what its state used to be.
20:16	seths	if I use (last (partition _ coll)) is that going to realize the whole collection? in linear time?
20:20	seths	err, I guess the linear time is mentioned in the docs for (last), sorry
20:20	seths	still curious about realizing everything tho
20:21	ulfster	Tcepsa: you could do a two-phase update und synchronize that
20:21	Tcepsa	ulfster: You mean, store the next-state on the first pass and then make a second pass that copies that into the current state?
20:22	ulfster	exactly
20:22	ulfster	that will work
20:22	Tcepsa	ulfster: Awesome, I was just setting up to try that. Thanks for the confirmation! ^_^
20:22	ulfster	i am not sure if you can do it easier
20:23	Tcepsa	~nods~ I'm not thrilled about walking the list twice, but at least it's still linear time.
20:30	scottj	How do you undefine a function? Say you've defined a fn and you move it to a new namespace, in order to use that namespace now you need to undefine the original (or restart clojure).
20:31	xp_prg	so nobody wants to tuor me?
20:31	hiredman	,(doc ns-unmap)
20:31	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
20:31	scottj	thanks
20:33	seths	xp_prg: some good offline resources are http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure and http://clojure.org/getting_started
20:40	Tcepsa	xp_prg: Most of the people here seem happy to help out with specific questions when they can, but there are lots of good resources on the web for learning the basics and getting your feet wet.
21:11	Tcepsa	If I'm inside a transaction, and I attempt to get the value of a ref that has been changed within that transaction, will the value returned be the value before the change, after the change, or will it throw an error?
21:11	Tcepsa	s/error/exception
21:12	rhickey	Tcepsa: you will see your own changes inside a transaction
21:14	Tcepsa	rhickey: Okay, thanks ^_^
21:15	chouser	,(let [r (ref 0)] (dosync (alter r inc) (prn :now @r)))
21:15	clojurebot	:now 1
21:16	Tcepsa	chouser: Ah, I see.
22:05	Tcepsa	Is there a way to use destructuring when passing a ref to a function (and/or is there a reason why that would be a bad thing to do?)
22:07	arohner_	Tcepsa: no there is not a way. I suppose it's possible, but a bit weird
22:08	Tcepsa	arohner: Thanks
22:11	drewr	Tcepsa: you mean to deref straight to a lexical?
22:14	Tcepsa	drewr: Say I have a reference to a map with :fname and :lname keys. Rather than using something like (let [fname (:fname @map-ref) lname (:lname @map-ref)] body) I'd prefer to just have those bound to the scope of the function when they're passed in.
22:14	Tcepsa	I'm still unclear enough on exactly what "lexical" binding means to know whether that's what I just described ~wry grin~
22:15	drewr	in that case you could do (let [{:keys [fname lname]} @map-ref] ...)
22:16	Tcepsa	Ahh, thanks, that's better than nothing ^_^
22:16	rads	what is the advantage of using the upcoming deftype over a hash map? performance?
22:21	drewr	that, and abstraction
22:22	drewr	I'm not sure how much faster it is over map access though
22:23	drewr	I think the main performance pain point deftype addresses is multimethod dispatch
22:24	rads	coming from an OO background, I'm not sure when to create a new type and when to leave it as a hash map
22:25	rads	in the context of functional programming, that is
22:27	drewr	I'm still developing a mental model myself
22:27	danlarkin	I haven't had occasion to use deftype myself :-/
22:27	danlarkin	Still looking out for the use case though
22:27	drewr	I've found it helpful to think in terms of protocols
22:27	drewr	what kinds of things do I want to do
22:28	drewr	map out the methods, then add types as they encapsulate components
22:31	rads	isn't the use of objects discouraged in clojure?
22:33	drewr	you have to go out of your way to create objects that contain mutable state
22:33	drewr	well, not that far out of your way
22:37	rads	I can understand using deftype like a struct, since defstruct is deprecated, but why would you add methods to a type in clojure when you have namespaces?
22:38	drewr	think of it as multimethods where the most common usage, dispatching on type, is given some perf and sugar
22:40	rads	is it mostly for the clojure-in-clojure stuff? it seems much more complicated than what is already there
22:43	drewr	yes, that was the primary catalyst
23:17	DeusExPikachu	I'm reading the definition for -main in core.clj in leiningen and I'm unsure why -main's argument list is as it is. What is the difference between [& [task & args]] and [task & args]?
23:18	chouser	[task & args] will throw an exception if you pass fewer than 1 arg
23:18	DeusExPikachu	ah, ok
23:18	chouser	[& [task & args]] will bind both task and args to nil and not throw any error if no args are passed in.
23:27	TheBusby	anyone using "Electric Ret" with Paredit (for emacs)
23:27	TheBusby	great screen demo of it here, http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9479/openparen.gif
23:30	boyd	All it seems to do is put the closing parens in the wrong place
23:30	TheBusby	er, well yes, on the following line
23:31	boyd	... which is great for, say, C
23:31	TheBusby	definitely a preference then
23:32	boyd	Sure. But closing parens on a seperate line is quite un-idiomatic in lisps
23:33	_mst	hitting the close paren moves the paren back off its own line, I think
23:33	TheBusby	notice at the end of the demo though
23:33	TheBusby	you just hit ) repeatedly to clean it up and make it look like normal lisp
23:33	boyd	Yes, but then why put them down there in the first place
23:33	boyd	?
23:34	TheBusby	make it a little more clear while you're typing
23:34	TheBusby	I find it useful...
23:35	boyd	I can see the appeal. I think I am in the habit of watching the highlighted open parens when I close, so they seem a bit superfluous.
23:36	TheBusby	I'd like to integrate "Electric Ret" w/ paredit, but am unsure how to do so though
23:41	TheBusby	added the code snippet to ~/.emacs.d/$(USER).el but no luck
23:44	wlr	TheBusby: Are you experienced with paredit? Seems to me, if you were, you'd declare Electric Ret functionality superfluous.
23:45	TheBusby	wlr: I've used it quite a bit, but I'm still far from having mastered it
23:46	TheBusby	is there some paredit feature that makes electric ret superfluous
23:47	TheBusby	I use ")" quite a bit to pull close-round to end of line, but find having the "mountain of parens" easier to navigate when adding code in a hierarchy
23:49	wlr	TheBusby: just a gut feeling. the focus in paredit is on editing the structure/form of the program and only incidentally on the textual aspects.
23:51	wlr	i'm close to the point where old lispers say "What parentheses?" when newbies complain about Lotsa Irrelevant Stupid Parens.
23:52	TheBusby	wlr: I don't mind the parens, beginning to love them with paredit in fact, but you need to pay attention of them to determine which part of the code hierarchy you're in though
23:54	TheBusby	by the sound of it I just need more practice with paredit as is ;)
23:54	TheBusby	wlr & boyd: thanks for the help!
23:55	JonSmith	hi
23:56	JonSmith	is there a way to do array access in scriptjure?
23:58	arohner	JonSmith: you mean javascript array access?
23:59	JonSmith	yup
23:59	arohner	off the top of my head, I think you can use the function call syntax for arrays