#clojure – 2010-01-26

2010-01-26

00:35	scottj	Is there a shorter way to write (apply str (apply concat '((\1 \0) "," (\0 \0 \0))))?
00:36	hiredman	ugh
00:37	hiredman	,flatten
00:37	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: flatten in this context
00:37	hiredman	,(use 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
00:37	clojurebot	nil
00:37	hiredman	,(reduce str (flatten '((\1 \0) \, (\0 \0 \0))))
00:37	clojurebot	"10,000"
00:39	hiredman	concat, I hate the function, as I hate hell, mutable state, and shellfish
00:41	hiredman	oh lord, what if flatten uses concat, :(
00:42	scottj	it seems like there should be a way to say do apply with this seq of functions
01:39	Raynes	Is there a map for functions with side effects?
01:39	Raynes	Something along the lines of (map println ..)
01:40	Raynes	I could use doseq, but I was wondering if there is a better way.
01:40	hiredman	side-effects + keeping the return value?
01:41	Raynes	Indeed. Like println.
01:41	hiredman	uh
01:41	hiredman	the result of println is nil
01:41	hiredman	always, why would you keep that?
01:41	Raynes	I guess I misunderstood you.
01:41	hiredman	for stuff that is completely side-effects doseq is best
01:41	Raynes	In Haskell, we have mapM_ to map a side-effecty function to a list.
01:41	Raynes	All I needed to know.
01:41	Raynes	Thank you.
01:42	hiredman	if you want to keep a return value, (comp vec map) is pretty good
01:43	Raynes	I didn't intend to keep the value of println. I simply intended to map println to a list of values.
01:43	Raynes	:)
01:43	Raynes	(Just to clarify)
01:45	arbscht	fwiw, there is also dorun. but doseq is nicer imo
01:48	hiredman	for purely side-effect stuff, without a doubt doseq is nicer
01:48	chouser	should have been named dofor
01:48	chouser	hm. or maybe not
01:53	qed	chouser: i like dofor, but i think it would encourage familiar for-like usage
01:53	qed	which is probably not the best idea
01:55	qed	screen -r
01:55	Raynes	qed: Heh heh. I have a habit of tying "cd channelname".
01:56	qed	:)
01:56	qed	i will sometimes throw an ls
01:56	qed	screen -r is a new problem
01:56	Raynes	Likewise.
01:57	replaca	scottj: if you're still here - if the goal is to interpose ","s in numbers, cl-format can do that for you
01:57	qed	i often use screen -aASU
01:58	qed	screen -aASU irc irssi
01:58	hiredman	SU are new to me
01:59	hiredman	oh
01:59	hiredman	no I know S
01:59	qed	-S sessionname
01:59	qed	When creating a new session, this option can be used to specify a meaningful name for the session. This name
01:59	qed	identifies the session for "screen -list" and "screen -r" actions. It substitutes the default [tty.host]
01:59	hiredman	wait, I know U too
01:59	qed	suffix.
01:59	qed	-U Run screen in UTF-8 mode. This option tells screen that your terminal sends and understands UTF-8 encoded
01:59	qed	whoa.
01:59	hiredman	infact I have screen aliased to 'screen -U'
01:59	hiredman	and forgot about it I guess
01:59	qed	yeah i aliased 'sn' to screen -aASU
02:00	qed	sr to 'screen -r'
02:00	hiredman	♥ screen
02:00	qed	same
02:00	qed	at work it is the reason im like 40% faster than everyone else
02:01	qed	i just have open screen sessions everywhere and resume them at will
02:01	hiredman	heh
02:02	qed	whenever i log into a box it sames "do you want a screen session?" if i hit Y it nests one for me
02:02	hiredman	wow
02:02	qed	and names according to host
02:03	gregh	has anybody tried tmux (a BSD screen workalike)?
02:03	gregh	I tried it for a while but it's hard to undo 10+ years of screen muscle memory
02:03	qed	never tried it
02:03	hiredman	gregh: it's on my radar (since there has been talking of including it in the base FreeBSd system) but I tried it yet
02:04	gregh	it's got some different ideas about sessions and moving them between clients, but I didn't really explore that much
02:04	hiredman	apparently you can get configs that set it up screen like
02:04	gregh	I fired it up with the screen compatibility key bindings and it was close but not quite right
02:04	qed	the majority of boxes i touch are SuSE, RH, AIX, or Ubunru
02:05	qed	Ubuntu
02:05	qed	so i stick with screen
02:05	qed	hiredman: ever AIX?
02:06	hiredman	hmmm, no
02:06	qed	good. it sucks.
02:06	hiredman	very small amounts of hp-ux
02:06	hiredman	also sucks
02:06	qed	AIX is based on System V
02:06	qed	need I say more
02:07	chouser	anyone ever use Tru64 a.k.a. Digital Unix?
02:08	qed	no
02:08	qed	ive used Inferno-OS
02:08	qed	that's as exotic as I've gotten
02:08	chouser	that's probably more esoteric than Tru64
02:08	replaca	all this screen talk: http://xkcd.com/686/
02:08	qed	chouser: have you played with inferno?
02:09	qed	inferno..sigh..Limbo could have been Java
02:09	chouser	I was really interested in limbo, once upon a time, but couldn't get my hands on any way to try it out.
02:09	qed	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(programming_language)
02:09	qed	chouser: you're the first person I've ever met to have an interest in Limbo
02:10	qed	well, outside of that community anyhow
02:10	chouser	I don't remember how I heard about it, or what alternatives I was aware of at that point.
02:10	qed	chouser: the ceremony makes it really tedious
02:10	hiredman	obviously someone needs to target the dis vm with a lisp
02:11	qed	hiredman: google summer of code 2010
02:11	qed	let's do this
02:12	hiredman	haha
02:12	qed	that's how i learned about p9 and inferno actually
02:12	qed	GSoC 2007
02:12	clojurebot	with style and grace
02:12	hiredman	clojurebot: indeed
02:12	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
02:12	qed	clojurebot: love
02:12	clojurebot	I don't understand.
02:12	chouser	oh, I must have heard about limbo circa 1996
02:12	qed	exactly.
02:13	qed	chouser: i'd wager i'm a fair bit younger
02:13	qed	24
02:13	RaceCondition	how much does Clojure differ from Erlang?
02:13	qed	RaceCondition: a lot...
02:13	chouser	qed: not quite a decade, then. :-)
02:13	qed	chouser: :)
02:14	RaceCondition	qed: it's also incredibly similar, so I'd just like to get a better picture of how these two solve the same problems
02:14	RaceCondition	Erlang apparently doens't allow changing anything and Clojure does... like refs and atoms... so I assume that dosync/transactions thing makes up for that?
02:14	qed	RaceCondition: their concurrency models are way different, but chouser will probably correct me
02:15	hiredman	clojure is targeted at same process multi-core concurrency, erlang is for distributed concurrency
02:15	qed	(or hiredman)
02:15	qed	;)
02:15	hiredman	I haven't actually written any erlang
02:15	hiredman	wiat
02:15	hiredman	I did
02:15	qed	haha hiredman
02:15	hiredman	I did a hello world tutorial years ago
02:16	qed	"wait...wait...there is directory here which says erlang..."
02:16	qed	"okay...i've written erlang"
02:16	RaceCondition	me neither, but I know you can only assign stuff once and in order to change something, you basically make a tail-recursive call with new state built in that swaps out the old function
02:16	hiredman	yeah
02:16	hiredman	clojurebot: oo sucks?
02:16	clojurebot	http://www.sics.se/~joe/bluetail/vol1/v1_oo.html
02:16	qed	no tail recursion in clojure
02:16	hiredman	armstrong seems like a cool guy
02:17	qed	hiredman: have you read coders at work?
02:17	hiredman	of course!
02:17	qed	that's one of my favorite interviews in there
02:17	RaceCondition	hiredman: btw I just saw a nice presentation about Clojure and funprog/concurrentprog and I have to admit I was surprised by the slight bashing of OO since OO is not just about objects changing state -- its about polymorphism mostly
02:17	qed	(armstrong's)
02:18	RaceCondition	Haskell has nice OO and you can't argue Haskell isn't pure functional
02:18	qed	RaceCondition: it's about time
02:18	qed	"time"
02:18	qed	that's where the bashing of OO comes from
02:19	RaceCondition	qed: so STATEFUL OO should be bashed, not OO in general, because polymorphism, which is what distinguishes OO from procedural, is orthogonal
02:19	RaceCondition	...to statefulness
02:19	hiredman	RaceCondition: sure, but polymorphism is not only in OO, and OO general brings all this imperative junk
02:19	qed	the general OO philosophy includes stateful OO
02:19	qed	it's how most OO languages operate
02:20	hiredman	RaceCondition: have you read the rationale?
02:20	qed	RaceCondition: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
02:20	qed	RaceCondition: read the rationale or watch that video
02:21	RaceCondition	qed: I just watched one of that guys presentations
02:21	qed	"that guy" is Rich Hickey
02:21	RaceCondition	I know
02:21	qed	lol
02:21	chouser	I think it's the "orientation" rather than the "object" that is the problem.
02:21	qed	just making sure
02:21	hiredman	the rationale has set of points on polymorphism
02:22	RaceCondition	and he did cover state and time management in that other demo as well and I completely understand the rationale behind that
02:22	qed	chouser: what do you mean by orientation
02:22	hiredman	~rationale
02:22	clojurebot	rationale is http://clojure.org/rationale
02:23	hiredman	it's basically rhickey's N theses
02:23	qed	what really made me stop in my tracks
02:23	qed	was the river quote
02:23	qed	"No man can cross the same river twice."
02:24	chouser	OO is Object Orientation. Clojure has objects but isn't oriented around them.
02:24	hiredman	http://clojure.org/state has some stuff about why rhickey didn't use erlang type actors for clojure
02:25	chouser	pretty much every good and useful feature of OO is available in some form in Clojure, usually a form that is simpler and more cleanly decoupled than standard OO
02:26	qed	the abstract ideas about how a cloud, if you watch it, can become three clouds, or disappear
02:26	qed	that stuff really resonated with me
02:26	chouser	sounds like nice subject to include in a book. Maybe in Chapter two...
02:26	dnolen	is ~(symbol (str sym)) the only way to make anaphoric macros work? (I feel like I've learned this like 20x times)
02:27	chouser	dnolen: ~'foo
02:27	dnolen	chouser: I get a complaint from compiler if I use that (not the macro, but when I use it later)
02:28	dnolen	chouser: oh yeah, because it gets qualified
02:28	dnolen	how to avoid that again?
02:28	hiredman	then you aren't doing it right :P
02:28	dnolen	hiredman: i'm not sure what other where there is it do it with anaphora sir.
02:29	chouser	(defmacro foo [] `(list ~'bar)) (let [bar 5] (foo)) ; returns (5)
02:29	qed	i still dont get macros
02:29	qed	but i havent tried too hard admittedly
02:30	unfo-	qed, i can recommend Programming Clojure - it has a nice chapter on macros
02:30	chouser	as long as you're using a language that has them, you'll hardly ever have to write them.
02:30	dnolen	chouser: huh I swear that is working for me I tried that.
02:30	dnolen	that isn't working i mean
02:30	qed	unfo-: i got sort of sidetracked on programming clojure at about 125p in
02:30	hiredman	I see macros on lists of why clojure is great a lot
02:31	unfo-	qed, p. 211 :)
02:31	unfo-	qed, read from there on for the macro chapter
02:31	qed	unfo-: will check it out, thanks
02:32	hiredman	I mean, they are neat, but there are so many other features I use more
02:32	dnolen	macros: you almost never use them but when you really need one, oooh boy.
02:32	qed	i dont totally get multimethods yet either
02:32	qed	which seem even more useful
02:32	hiredman	multimethods, java interop, immutable values, sequences
02:32	hiredman	~multimethods
02:32	clojurebot	multimethods seperate the 20% from the 80%
02:33	qed	hiredman: really, mmethods are 80%?
02:33	RaceCondition	btw that {} and [] thing is a read-macro thing?
02:33	dnolen	chouser: or anyone really, see anything suspicious here? http://paste.lisp.org/display/93916
02:35	dnolen	when I use ~'sym the usage of the macro throws: unable to resolve sym in this context
02:35	hiredman	qed: 20% who get it, and 80% that don't, I think is what is implied
02:35	hiredman	dnolen: you should look at the macro expansion
02:36	hiredman	that exception means there is no binding for sym in the expansion
02:36	scottj	replaca: yeah, that was the goal, after writing myself I just ended up wrapping (. (DecimalFormat/getNumberInstance) format 1000.00)
02:36	dnolen	bah ~(symbol (str sym)) is what I want, ~'sym just puts sym there :)
02:36	hiredman	…
02:36	hiredman	isn't that what ~(symbol (str sym)) does?
02:37	dnolen	no
02:37	hiredman	you want 'sym not sym
02:37	hiredman	like the unevaluated symbol sym
02:37	hiredman	'~'sym
02:37	scottj	Learning Clojure wikibook says . is never a valid symbol. What does that mean? :. seems to be, and obviously . itself isn't because symbols start with :
02:37	hiredman	scottj: no
02:38	scottj	s/valid symbol/valid keyword
02:38	scottj	s/because symbols/because keywords
02:38	dnolen	hiredman nope, that produces 'sym in the expansion
02:38	hiredman	right
02:38	hiredman	which is what you want
02:38	dnolen	no
02:39	hiredman	yes!
02:39	hiredman	you want the unevaluated symbol sym
02:39	dnolen	I'll paste the difference to illustrate
02:39	hiredman	that is what '~'sym gets you
02:40	hiredman	I understand the difference
02:40	hiredman	or not
02:40	dnolen	the macro expansion looks different
02:40	hiredman	lets see it
02:41	dnolen	'~'sym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93917
02:42	hiredman	lets see with the (symbol ...)
02:42	dnolen	~(symbol (str sym)): http://paste.lisp.org/display/93918
02:42	clojurebot	"if you never learnt Lisp, then you never learned to program" -- some rant on some blog somewhere
02:43	hiredman	you know, I don't think you want a capture
02:43	hiredman	you want the sym that is the argument macro right?
02:43	hiredman	er
02:43	hiredman	the macro argument
02:43	dnolen	hiredman: yeah
02:43	hiredman	that is not capturing that is unquote
02:43	hiredman	~sym
02:43	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
02:44	qed	all: thanks for the great talk -- have a good night
02:45	dnolen	haha: the danger of not writing making in too long a time. you forget even the most basic rules. sheesh
02:45	dnolen	not writing macros in too long a time
02:45	dnolen	hiredman: thx
02:45	hiredman	sure
02:54	G0SUB	any clojure list admins here?
02:54	hiredman	rhickey may be the only one who is an admin
02:55	G0SUB	hmm
02:55	hiredman	maybe chouser
02:55	G0SUB	I want to change my email address... but since I am using Google Apps, I can't find any way to do so.
02:56	G0SUB	So I thought may be they can...
02:56	G0SUB	hiredman: btw, is there any way to use the released version of c.c (1.1.0) with lein?
02:57	hiredman	you should be able to add it to the dependencies
02:57	qed	[clojure "1.1.0"]
02:57	G0SUB	qed: clojure.contrib
02:57	qed	oh sorry
02:57	qed	ive been using 1.0
02:57	qed	i dont know
02:58	hiredman	G0SUB: same
02:58	hiredman	the contrib builds are up in the build.clojure.org maven repo
02:58	G0SUB	hiredman: I get this -- Unable to resolve artifact: Missing:
02:58	hiredman	hmmm
02:59	hiredman	I think the seperate "release" repo is new, so you might need to add it
02:59	G0SUB	hiredman: is there any way to add repos?
02:59	hiredman	yes
02:59	hiredman	it's in the readme, I don't recall off hand
03:00	hiredman	I do remember it takes a map of names (Strings) to urls (Strings)
03:02	G0SUB	hiredman: can't find it/
03:15	hiredman	:repositories
03:35	RaceCondition	I have to admit I really enjoy those two of Hickey's presentations on InfoQ
03:35	RaceCondition	really enlightening and refreshing
03:35	RaceCondition	(I hope I won't become a Clojure worshipper after them)
03:37	G0SUB	hiredman: yep. thanks.
03:50	cgrand	G0SUB: pushed a new enlive.jar to clojars
03:50	G0SUB	cgrand: cool. many thanks.
03:50	G0SUB	cgrand: the version id is the same?
03:52	cgrand	yup
03:55	G0SUB	cgrand: works. great.
04:03	esj	cgrand: quick question - in your kata solution for devlinsf yesterday you called (sift ...) explicitly to recur, why not use recur ? Is it just because for a small solution you don't need to worry about the stack ?
04:06	cgrand	esj: let me check but I believe it was in a lazy-seq
04:06	esj	it was
04:07	esj	so that takes care of it for you
04:07	esj	yeah, I'm being stupid
04:07	esj	thanks
04:07	esj	the road to understanding, long it is.
04:08	cgrand	you can' t call recur through a lzy-seq because the lazy-seq macro wraps its body into a fn
04:10	Raynes	Lazy-seqs make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
04:11	esj	thanks
04:19	Raynes	I wrote some Python earlier. One function and I still want to hang myself. :\|
04:20	gregh	that's odd
04:29	hiredman	~python
04:29	clojurebot	python is ugly
04:30	Raynes	I concur.
04:32	G0SUB	lol
04:37	spariev_	clojurebot is sure opinionated
04:38	esj	lol
04:38	esj	~ruby
04:38	clojurebot	Chunky bacon!
04:38	esj	not to taunt or anything
04:39	spariev_	~java
04:39	clojurebot	☕
04:39	spariev_	lol
04:39	esj	~clojure
04:39	clojurebot	clojure is far closer to perfection then python
04:40	hiredman	:O
04:40	Raynes	~hiredman
04:40	clojurebot	hiredman is lazy
04:40	hiredman	~clojure
04:40	clojurebot	clojure is the bestest programming language available.
04:41	hiredman	~clojure
04:41	clojurebot	clojure is the brand
04:43	G0SUB	~java
04:43	clojurebot	☕
04:44	Raynes	~factor
04:44	clojurebot	Huh?
04:44	Raynes	:\
04:46	cypher23	~scala
04:46	hiredman	clojurebot: please tell us about scala
04:46	clojurebot	Unfortunately the standard idiom of consuming an infinite/unbounded resource as a stream can be problematic unless you're really careful -- seen in #scala
04:47	hiredman	~scala {((x: Any, y: Any) => (f: Function2[Any, Any, Any]) => f(x, y))(1, 2)((x: Any, y: Any) => x)}
04:47	clojurebot	Any = 1
04:47	hiredman	~scala work because clojurebot tries to run scala
04:47	hiredman	er
04:47	hiredman	doesn't
04:48	cypher23	ah, ok
05:13	esj	cgrand: ok, here's another silly question. If (drop-while ...) returns a lazy sequence, why wrap yours in a (seq ...) ? I notice that it nukes destructuring (to the point of killing the code) if you remove it, but can't understand why. What lorry sized hole is this in my understanding ?
05:14	esj	is is to force the lazy seq to realise ?
05:15	Chousuke	seq returns nil if the lazy seq is empty
05:16	esj	,(lazy-seq nil)
05:16	clojurebot	()
05:16	esj	,(seq nil)
05:16	clojurebot	nil
05:16	esj	funky
05:16	cgrand	esj: it has nothing to do with the "-let" (destructuring) part of the when-let but with the "when" part
05:16	cgrand	,(seq (lazy-seq nil))
05:16	clojurebot	nil
05:16	esj	gotcha
05:16	esj	glad I asked, thanks.
05:27	lypanov	well. took a while. but my insanity is over.
05:27	lypanov	clojure via gwt is the stupidest idea i had in a long time
05:27	esj	:)
05:28	esj	i love those
05:28	lypanov	porting clojure itself to js is the only way
05:28	lypanov	long showers++
05:29	esj	(inc long-showers), no ?
05:29	esj	;)
05:29	lypanov	no clue, i haven't yet written a single line of clojure :P
05:30	esj	then your insanity is far from over !
05:32	lypanov	the moment i can slime connect to a clojure instance running in chrome in order to fix a random bug in my webpages layout code
05:33	lypanov	thats when the insanity is over :)
05:53	ivan_chernetsky	Hi. I've just seen that clojure-contrib moved on to using maven exclusively, so I am curious what's behind this decision? As far as I know using clojure-ant-tasks it is gainable to have a small ant build file. I worry of it because use of maven's complicating the life of distro (at least source-based) package mantainers .
06:03	jlr	is your concern then packaging clojure-contrib projects for e.g. debian or gentoo?
06:10	angerman	cool
06:19	ivan_chernetsky	jlr: Gentoo.
06:20	alexott	angerman: there is also #clojure.de channel ;-)
06:21	angerman	I'm not so certain I want to get localized.
06:21	alexott	angerman: just fyi
06:21	angerman	alexott: thanks
06:55	Hali_303	hi!
07:19	AWizzArd	Is subseq lazy?
07:23	AWizzArd	cgrand: do you know why PersistentTreeSet does not implement java.util.SortedSet? That would allow to get .subSets of them.
07:59	Leonidas	~[6~/win 2
07:59	clojurebot	excusez-moi
08:41	jcromartie	so this is kind of odd...
08:41	jcromartie	,(clojure.set/difference (set "abc") "abc")
08:42	clojurebot	#{}
08:42	jcromartie	,(clojure.set/difference (set "abc") "abcd")
08:42	clojurebot	#{\a \b \c}
08:42	jcromartie	,(clojure.set/difference (set "abc") (set "abcd"))
08:42	clojurebot	#{}
08:42	chouser	clojure.set operations are for the most part undefined unless you pass in sets
08:43	jcromartie	ok but what about the last one?
08:43	chouser	,(doc clojure.set/difference)
08:44	clojurebot	"([s1] [s1 s2] [s1 s2 & sets]); Return a set that is the first set without elements of the remaining sets"
08:44	esj	its not symmetric
08:44	jcromartie	I see
08:44	chouser	so that's a non-commutative "subtract", not a commutative xor
08:44	esj	would be easy enough to synthesise with a union of the two differences
08:45	esj	(union (diff a b) (diff b a) i'd think
08:50	jcromartie	yeah
08:54	cgrand	AWizzArd: most methods in j.u.SortedSet return Sets while methods in Sorted return seqs, this make that interface harder to implement -- but no real reason
08:56	AWizzArd	cgrand: probably the functions in clojure.set will be helpful enough. I just thought it would be nice to have a (subset ...).
08:56	AWizzArd	subseq can sometimes be helpful enough though
08:59	cemerick	using require with :as is of course far cleaner and polite to those that need to read your code, but wow, using :use when you're just trying to hack something out feels so much more productive.
09:03	cgrand	AWizzArd: sure, ask rhickey if you can open a ticket
09:06	AWizzArd	cgrand: yes
09:47	jcromartie	would it be reasonable to patch duck-streams to use a temp file?
09:48	jcromartie	specifically when spitting to a File
09:50	jcromartie	I guess that's kind of specific and doesn't fit with the way it handles writers
09:51	stuartsierra	that would not be ok
09:52	stuartsierra	can't guarantee that the process has permission to write anywhere except the file it was told to write to
09:54	jcromartie	gotcha
09:54	jcromartie	well I'm very pleased with my safe atomic spit function :)
09:54	jcromartie	after losing a file
09:55	jcromartie	and after finding a half-written file
09:55	chouser	maybe an option that allows the caller to specify a tempfile name and/or directory?
09:55	jcromartie	and atomic-spit just has a nice ring to it
09:56	stuartsierra	maybe, but that should be a separate function, e.g. write-rename
09:56	jcromartie	http://gist.github.com/286894
09:57	jcromartie	I just hit some of these safety issues pretty quickly while testing my code
09:57	jcromartie	i.e. simulating lots of writes and then bringing down the server
10:11	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: why?
10:11	saml	is there a library for command line option parsing?
10:12	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: see http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/7ab69b1d43012917#
10:12	saml	command-line
10:13	stuartsierra	Thinking about making str-utils2/replace a macro that dispatches on types at compile time.
10:14	chouser	whoa
10:14	chouser	really?
10:14	stuartsierra	Well, multimethods are slow, and 99% of the time you're going to call 'replace' with literal arguments
10:14	AWizzArd	hmm
10:15	chouser	saml: clojure.contrib.command-line is there, though not terribly advanced.
10:15	saml	chouser: yup. it seems like it binds positional arguments to symbols
10:15	stuartsierra	It could fall back on a multimethod if the types are unknown at compile time.
10:15	saml	that's all i need for now :P
10:16	chouser	stuartsierra: by "unknown" you mean "symbols"?
10:16	stuartsierra	chouser: or expressions
10:16	chouser	ah, sure.
10:17	chouser	hm, and if you make it :inline instead of always a macro, it could still be used with comp for our point-free friends, map, etc.
10:18	stuartsierra	Hmm...
10:18	stuartsierra	I'd have to figure out exactly how :inline works.
10:19	saml	command-line-args this is global variable for command line arguments?
10:19	chouser	stuartsierra: won't take you long. :-)
10:19	stuartsierra	heh
10:19	chouser	saml: yes
10:19	saml	oh to get that i need to launch through command line. not in emacs
10:20	saml	silly me
10:26	saml	java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main /path/to/myscript.clj arg1 arg2 arg3 how can I get things before arg1 arg2 arg3 ?
10:26	stuartsierra	Actually, a macro could do compile-time checking for anything.
10:27	stuartsierra	Any multimethod that dispatches on type can theoretically be resolved at compile time.
10:34	chouser	stuartsierra: you mean if the args are hinted?
10:34	stuartsierra	yes
10:34	stuartsierra	or literals
10:38	stuartsierra	the tricky part is how to abstract that into a macro
10:40	saml	to read text file, do I use java interop?
10:42	grammati	,(doc slurp)
10:42	clojurebot	"([f] [f enc]); Reads the file named by f using the encoding enc into a string and returns it."
10:44	saml	grammati: thanks
10:45	saml	how do I know current working directory of the repl?
10:45	chouser	saml: but yes, anything slightly complicated and you'll probably have to fall back on interop calls.
10:46	chouser	(System/getProperty "user.dir")
10:47	chouser	the jvm doesn't let you chdir
10:47	LauJensen	(defn pf [s & args] (println (format s args)))
10:47	LauJensen	Is there some & related trickery I can do to make this work w/o using a macro
10:48	chouser	apply
10:52	LauJensen	how?
10:52	clojurebot	with style and grace
10:56	neotyk	clojurebot: are you the smartest in your family?
10:56	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:27	jcromartie	so those of you using Java IDEs... what is your preference: NetBeans or Eclipse?
11:28	LauJensen	Emacs
11:28	LauJensen	(sorry, couldnt help myself!! :P)
11:31	jcromartie	...
11:31	jcromartie	I use Emacs too.
11:32	spariev_	I tried IDEA and netbeans Clojure plugins, but Emacs is better
11:33	spariev_	I'm still the IDEA fan for java/ruby thought
11:34	jcromartie	NetBeans looks nice on SO X
11:34	jcromartie	OS X
11:35	jcromartie	it almost feels like a human being designed it
11:36	jasapp	heh
11:37	jcromartie	my concern is in having others collaborate on a clojure project that might not be quite ready for Emacs
11:38	jcromartie	zero emacs experience makes for fun times
11:39	spariev_	I believe netbean's enclojure is the most polished Clojure IDE plugin as for now
11:39	esj	don't let anybody tell you that emacs stands for esc-meta-alt-ctl-shift, entirely untrue and misleading ;)
11:39	jcromartie	hah hah
11:39	spariev_	heh
11:39	caljunior	emacs schmemacs. :-) I'm having an issue using incanter with TextMate.
11:40	jasapp	I love emacs now, don't get me wrong.
11:40	jasapp	but learning to use it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done
11:40	jasapp	after 7 or 8 years of being a vim guy
11:40	caljunior	when I try to load incanter in the repl with: (use '(incanter core))
11:41	caljunior	I get this exception: java.lang.IllegalStateException: copy already refers to: #'clojure.contrib.duck-streams/copy in namespace: user (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
11:43	lypanov	jasapp: i use viper
11:43	caljunior	is this the prebuilt incanter version (incanter-app-*.jar clashing with clojure which is actually required for running code from TextMate?
11:43	lypanov	jcromartie: netbeans. eclipse is ... yeah.
11:43	lypanov	but i'd rather suggest idea if you have the option.
11:44	caljunior	I realise this is a less than interesting issue.
11:44	stuartsierra	hey, where's my paste?
11:45	stuartsierra	Compile-time type-checking multimethods: http://paste.lisp.org/+20HG
11:46	cgrand	stuartsierra: lispbot seems aphonic since yesterday
11:46	jasapp	lypanov: I tried using viper, but that just made things worse for me
11:46	caljunior	got the answer directly from david liebke: should require not use. thanks David.
11:46	jasapp	I think it was trying to use emacs, viper, and slime
11:46	jasapp	all while trying to learn to use emacs
11:47	AWizzArd	,(instance? String "x")
11:47	clojurebot	true
11:47	AWizzArd	,(time (dotimes [i 1000000] (instance? String "x")))
11:47	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 159.273 msecs"
11:48	lypanov	jasapp: yeah. its painful. i'm just taking breaks whenever i feel like my skull might crack
11:48	AWizzArd	Interesting. This dotimes above gives on my system: (class: my/ns$eval__15603$fn__15604, method: invoke signature: ()Ljava/lang/Object;) Unable to pop operand off an empty stack
11:49	joegg	cgrand: aphonic is a great word. vocab++
11:53	esj	,(distinct '(1 2 2))
11:53	clojurebot	(1 2)
11:53	esj	,(distinct? '(1 2 2))
11:53	clojurebot	true
11:53	esj	?
11:54	stuartsierra	,(apply distinct? '(1 2 2))
11:54	clojurebot	false
11:54	AWizzArd	maybe compile time constants
11:54	esj	aaah apply
11:54	esj	thanks
11:58	esj	would it be useful to be able to attach some textual explanation to :pre and :post assertion exceptions ?
11:58	joegg	I want to write a simplex solver to help with my clojure-learning, and I'm having trouble coming with how to represent the system of equations using clojure data structures. Something like a list of maps of variables onto coefficients would probably work, but then I'm worried about the fact these structures are immutable, and I just don't see how I would interact with the thing. Can anyone point me to some knowledge?
11:59	esj	joegg: have you tried Incanter ?
11:59	esj	it backs into a bunch of numerical libraries
12:00	esj	has things like linear regressions etc, so you'll find representations such as you're looking for
12:00	joegg	esj: That's a good suggestion, and I might look to for inspiration, but (and I know this is crazy), I don't want to pull in any libraries. The whole exercise is to do it myself, it's a kata.
12:01	joegg	I will see how they represent these structures, though. Excellent suggestion.
12:01	joegg	Thanks!
12:01	esj	groovy.
12:03	joegg	technomancy: Bruce Campbell never mistakes it for a noun. :)
12:04	technomancy	joegg: perhaps if it were followed by the sound of a shotgun being loaded the ambiguity would fade.
12:04	esj	~groovy
12:04	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:04	esj	just checking clojurebot...
12:06	Mec	How come you cant chat in here as a guest?
12:06	esj	spammers
12:06	joegg	,(do (load shotgun)) (println "Groovy."))
12:06	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: shotgun in this context
12:06	joegg	Something is wrong.
12:13	the-kenny	dan
12:13	the-kenny	oops
12:15	esj	is is possible to customise the sort function applied by (sorted-map ...) ?
12:16	esj	or is that all kinds a crazy ?
12:16	chouser	sorted-map-by
12:16	esj	!
12:17	esj	thanks a ton, that's awesome.
12:17	chouser	be careful -- if you say two keys are equal, it'll only store one of them.
12:17	esj	thanks, that could be unexpected.
12:18	chouser	,(sorted-map-by (constantly 0) :a 1, :b 2, :c 3)
12:18	clojurebot	{:a 3}
12:27	Mec	I'm going to lose my mind trying to get an IDE to work
12:31	Mec	contrib is encluded in my enclojure project but it keeps telling me no contrib classes exist
12:32	stuartsierra	Mec: start with the command line, then work up to an IDE
12:44	saml	can I extend a java class in clojure?
12:45	saml	oh java_interop has section about Implementing Interfaces and Extending Classes
13:09	noidi	is there a way to refer to the current namespace?
13:09	chouser	ns
13:09	noidi	I have a function called foobar/set! and it worked fine, but now I want to refer to it from another function in the same namespace, and ns/set! doesn't seem to work
13:09	noidi	and just plain set! doesn't work because it's a special form
13:11	noidi	I get "No such namespace: ns" when evaluating the file in slime with C-c C-k
13:11	chouser	oh. yeah, I don't think you can get away with a var named 'set!'
13:11	noidi	I can as long as I don't need it within the namespace :)
13:11	noidi	but thanks, I'll rename it to set-data!
13:11	clojurebot	clojure-alpha was renamed clojure-master, and this broke most of the projects on Clojars
13:12	chouser	if it were just a macro of fn, you could get away with it, but special forms will cause you trouble
13:13	Chousuke	noidi: ns is a variable
13:13	Chousuke	noidi: you'd have to do the.namespace/set!
13:14	alexyk	how do folks structure something like .clojurerc, to be loaded into each repl?
13:15	alexyk	i.e. how do you auto-load it?
13:15	noidi	depends on how you launch your repl :)
13:15	alexyk	better not to depend on it :)
13:16	noidi	there's the -i command line flag for clojure.main, you could add that to the script than launches the repl
13:17	alexyk	ah ok
13:17	noidi	java -cp ... clojure.main -i clojurerc.clj
13:17	BrandonW	all right! class path talk!
13:17	BrandonW	that is just what i came in here to ask :)
13:18	Chousuke	:P
13:18	alexyk	class of 2010
13:18	Chousuke	note that the classpath was omitted.
13:18	alexyk	the working class
13:18	Chousuke	in other news, by qnap HDD was making some nasty click noises earlier :(
13:19	Chousuke	it seems to have calmed down now though.
13:19	alexyk	Chousuke: Time Machine!
13:19	alexyk	or gibak
13:19	somnium	alexyk: if you put a user.clj on the classpath it will get autoloaded
13:19	Chousuke	alexyk: it's RAID1; and a relatively new installation anyway. there's nothing to back up
13:19	alexyk	somnium: oh! now that's autoloading indeed
13:20	BrandonW	okay, so i am going through the programming clojure book and i am currently trying to generate a java class file via clojure's :gen-class
13:20	alexyk	Chousuke: it hurts even to read of clicking noises! :)
13:20	Chousuke	alexyk: it just sucks. the hdds are about six months old
13:20	Chousuke	alexyk: I have a six year old HDD that's still going strong.
13:20	BrandonW	the start of my tasklist.clj file is (ns reader.tasklist, so it is the reader package, class tasklist
13:20	Chousuke	what's wrong with modern ones :(
13:20	alexyk	Chousuke: we need to add a few terabytes here and there, too. Did you get some cheap SATA?
13:21	BrandonW	that file is in com/reader/tasklist.clj
13:21	BrandonW	i start the clj repl in com directory (with no additional args)
13:21	BrandonW	type (compile 'reader.tasklist)
13:21	Chousuke	alexyk: I bought 2*1.5TB from a friend. he still has the receipts though so if the drives fail now I can get new ones through warranty
13:21	Chousuke	alexyk: So I'd rather they fail NOW than after two years when they're full of data and out of warranty...
13:21	BrandonW	and it says No such file or directory (tasklist:clj:1)
13:22	alexyk	Chousuke: hope just one is clicking! there's all those urban legends that RAID'ed disks fail together etc.
13:22	BrandonW	unfortunately i am coming to clojure from c# :( i had some experience with java in college, but it was academic computer science, so i didn't get much experience with jars and class path. i looked up a bit on google but i feel like i am missing something very fundamental...
13:22	Chousuke	alexyk: it should be jut one. right now, neither is making any noise, though.
13:23	Chousuke	alexyk: but it was a really nasty tick-tock noise it made earlier...
13:23	lypanov	i sometimes here that for a drivethats been going without issues for 1.5 years
13:23	lypanov	dunno why
13:24	Chousuke	hmm :/
13:24	Chousuke	now I ran aptitude and no ticking noises. hm
13:25	alexyk	ok to BrandonW's question: should the dirs with the actual files be on the classpath?
13:25	jasapp	Chousuke: maybe a little shaking would help
13:25	alexyk	I actually call my namespaces whatever with the dot and don't consider it as a path part or anything
13:25	BrandonW	from teh quick research i did on class paths, i think the directory you start java/clj from is added automatically
13:25	Chousuke	jasapp: I'll try that if the clicking resumes...
13:26	alexyk	BrandonW: did you try adding the actual directory containing the tasklist.clj file to the path?
13:26	alexyk	tools like lein repl or maven clojure:repl do that for you
13:26	jasapp	Chousuke: I meant to induce more ticking
13:26	BrandonW	and from what i've read of java classpath usage, it is supposed to be in reverse domain form (e.g. org.clojure.xxx) and it usually maps to directory structure
13:26	Chousuke	hm.
13:26	Chousuke	now it made a couple ticks again. :(
13:26	Mec	Is there a namespace tutorial anywhere? refer use require import ns head explode
13:26	BrandonW	and i could do that via clj -cp ./reader
13:27	BrandonW	right?
13:27	lypanov	BrandonW: fwiw, i don't use classpaths. lein repl takes care of all that for me. i'd suggest trying leiningen therefore if what you really want to do is learn clojure not java classpath nasties :)
13:27	BrandonW	well
13:27	BrandonW	i would like to eventually use it at work if i can
13:27	alexyk	BrandonW: I always load things by their full path, (load-file "meat/subdir/file.clj")
13:28	BrandonW	in which case i will probably have to deal with class paths anyways :P
13:28	alexyk	meat is a symlink into the maven guts, e.g. meat -> com/domain/somedir
13:28	BrandonW	when compiling though, you don't give it a full path, you gave it a package/class i think, right?
13:29	alexyk	BrandonW: I don't really compile, you load and it's compiled for you.
13:29	noidi	Mec, what do you find confusing?
13:29	technomancy	Mec: use and import is all you need to get started
13:29	alexyk	the senior comrades will correct me, but you don't really need to compile clojure
13:29	technomancy	"use" for clojure code, "import" for java classes
13:29	Mec	how do I only take a few functions from a lib without using the whole thing?
13:29	BrandonW	i'm working on the programming clojure book, on the chapter where you generate java class files in teh filesystem
13:30	alexyk	ah, ok
13:30	technomancy	Mec: it's best to have something like (:use [clojure.contrib.duck-streams :only [slurp* writer]])
13:30	BrandonW	so i could load the file, but i would still need a qualified package/class name (i think) to compile it with the compile function
13:30	alexyk	I wish that chapter would move to the end of the book
13:30	BrandonW	yeah
13:30	alexyk	to non-Java people it's confusing
13:30	Mec	ah hah, i was missing a set of braces
13:30	BrandonW	i don't know that i would ever generate java class files in clojure, so i wasn't putting much thought into it
13:30	BrandonW	if class path issues like this normally don't crop up in clojure, then i'm okay with skipping it :)
13:30	technomancy	Mec: (in your ns form at the top; it's different if you're using it outside ns)
13:30	alexyk	totally unnecessary to throw all that Java crap into the middle of the pretty gugrgling stream of FP
13:30	lypanov	heh
13:31	DeusExPikachu	anything like etypecase (from CL) in clojure?
13:31	alexyk	DeusExPikachu: sounds like the name of a protein
13:33	DeusExPikachu	alexyk: heh
13:38	alexyk	DeusExPikachu: cool nick btw :)
13:39	DeusExPikachu	alexyk: I've had it for the longest time, since 2000 I believe, came from the video game Deus Ex and you know what else
13:52	alexyk_	I notice my repl slow down significantly after some usage. I launch a 64-bit server JVM with compressed references and -Xmx30g, than see it reach 28g usage, then shrink back to 10g, and go 5 times slower on the same database load from mongo. I use transients to assemble the load back. Is there any knob to adjust?
13:52	StartsWithK	how do i compare two symbols? (declare x) (defn is-x? [s] (or (= 'x s) (= `x s)) works if i (use) namespace with 'x and 'is-x?, but if i do something as (require '[foo :as f]) (f/is-x? 'f/x) it returns false
13:53	somnium	,(= 'foo 'bar/foo)
13:53	clojurebot	false
13:54	Mec	(= (name x) (name y))
13:54	somnium	,(= 'foo (name 'bar/foo))
13:54	clojurebot	false
13:54	somnium	doh
13:54	Mec	,(= (name 'foo) (name 'bar/foo))
13:54	clojurebot	true
13:54	hiredman	but those two symbols are not equivilent
13:54	alexyk_	that's deep
13:55	hiredman	.(= 'foo 'bar/foo)
13:55	hiredman	,(= 'foo 'bar/foo)
13:55	clojurebot	false
13:55	alexyk_	somnium: did you notice mongo slowdown after usage in the same repl?
13:56	somnium	alexyk_: Its lightning fast for all my loads, which have topped out around a million entries or so
13:57	StartsWithK	it works ok if i don't use aliased name, is there a way to force 'f/x to expand to 'foo/x?
13:59	somnium	alexyk: except when I accidentally print the database without setting print length, thats when I usually go refill my coffee or kill emacs
13:59	chouser	`f/x
13:59	alexyk	somnium: if I do that. it would print the whole twitter :)
14:00	alexyk	would need three tons of coffee
14:00	alexyk	btw how do I set that print limit again?
14:00	somnium	set! print-length 42
14:01	the-kenny	somnium: You forgot the parens!
14:01	alexyk	somnium: I feel like a plumber with a blob of sh*t somewhere. It definitely gets clogged, but whether it's the server, teh JVM, the mongo or the repl, who knows
14:01	the-kenny	somnium: Did your session ran out of parens?
14:01	jasapp	alexyk: how many tweets are you up to now?
14:01	alexyk	the-kenny: can you imagine parens? :)
14:02	alexyk	jasapp: I use a research set of 100 million. I have overall a few billions I think.
14:02	StartsWithK	chouser, how do i call ` my self, as in '(f/x 1) i would like to `f/x first argument only?
14:02	jasapp	any exciting trends you've noticed?
14:03	alexyk	jasapp: a lot of small things. I need to notice something exciting by the KDD deadline!
14:03	jasapp	I played around with twitter for a week until the poor spelling and bad grammar got too depressing.
14:04	jasapp	kdd?
14:04	alexyk	I was effing with transients for a few days before I started to get my data quickly into repl.
14:04	somnium	I misplaced my father's parens for a moment
14:04	alexyk	kdd.org
14:05	alexyk	jasapp: since Oprah started using twitter in bed, you have no excuse not to
14:05	jasapp	haha
14:05	BrandonW	finally!
14:05	BrandonW	i figured out my problem :)
14:06	BrandonW	i got mildly obsessed with figuring the stupid thing out so i had to keep bashing my head against the metaphorical class path wall :(
14:06	somnium	alexyk: you should team up with these guys >> http://noosphere.princeton.edu/
14:06	BrandonW	my problem was i needed to have a classes sub-directory in the directory i started the repl from
14:06	BrandonW	and that also needed to be in the class path
14:07	BrandonW	so basically, i had to start clj like: clj -cp classes (after already making the classes subdirectory, which didn't exist before)
14:08	hiredman	so, exactly what it says to do on the page about compilation on clojure.org?
14:08	fractalis	/join #emacs
14:08	fractalis
14:08	fractalis	Sorry, ignore that.
14:09	jasapp	emacs? who uses emacs? ;)
14:09	fractalis	lol
14:10	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs?
14:10	clojurebot	emacs is an out-moded belief system
14:11	technomancy	classics never go out of style
14:11	alexyk	technomancy: ran ed on iphone. Did you run emacs on it?
14:11	BrandonW	ah hiredman that would have helped had you linked me to it earlier
14:12	BrandonW	all i had was the book and (doc compile)
14:12	technomancy	alexyk: that's against the TOS!
14:12	alexyk	try to mess up your term and not be able to find the current line. ed saves the day!
14:12	BrandonW	which gave me enough to figure it out, but took a while as a non-java programmer
14:12	alexyk	technomancy: that was before Steve Jobs told me to stop it
14:12	technomancy	I hope he asked nicely.
14:13	alexyk	BrandonW: same here. I just cook the classpath in zsh now. leiningen puts things into lib/ with lein deps, then I say: JARS=( lib/*.jar ); LIB=${(j.:.)JARS}; CLASSPATH="$LIB${CLASSPATH:+:$CLASSPATH}"
14:14	alexyk	and that's it :)
14:14	BrandonW	the classes part of the classpath are what screwed me up, i saw classes on the sample shell script of code that came with the book, but i didn't know that i actually had to create the classes directory
14:14	BrandonW	i thought it would automatically generate it for me or something :O
14:14	BrandonW	i don't mind it so much now that i understand how it works
14:15	BrandonW	while i was looking around various bits of docs i saw a reference to .clojurerc which i think will be very nice in setting up projects
14:16	BrandonW	i will check out lein though
14:16	alexyk	technomancy: in fact I repented and went back into the warm ATT fold, to sync my stuff with OmniFocus and Things.
14:16	BrandonW	i've seen that mentioned in various places
14:16	alexyk	and, we have the leiningen field marshal here, prof. dr. technomancy
14:16	alexyk	and it's really cool, except it effs up repl still
14:17	technomancy	yup... that's due to not being able to get a hold of the original I/O streams from inside a call to clojure.main/repl.
14:17	StartsWithK	why if i do (require '[foo :as f]) (find-ns 'f) it return false, but (find-ns 'foo) return true
14:17	BrandonW	actually while i'm here, i'm curious: how many people jazz up the standard repl and use that, and how many people use an in-place repl a la swank or vimclojure or the netbeans plugin?
14:17	technomancy	next release is going to print out a warning when you do "lein repl" and suggest use of swank or nailgun instead
14:18	technomancy	unless someone comes up with a clever fix post haste
14:18	BrandonW	also, now that you have mentioend lein a couple of times and i am checking it out, how does lancet (the build tool you build in programing clojure) compare to it?
14:18	BrandonW	is lancet useful at all, or is it more of a proof of concept?
14:18	technomancy	BrandonW: lancet is useful as a library, not as a build tool.
14:18	technomancy	leiningen uses it to call ant tasks
14:18	BrandonW	ah right
14:20	BrandonW	well thanks very much for the classpath help and the pointer to lein :) have a great day
14:23	StartsWithK	uf.. (defn real-ns [s] (let [sn (symbol (namespace s))] (ns-name (or (find-ns sn) (get (ns-aliases ns) sn))))), is there a bether way to do this?
14:27	alexyk	,(set! print-limit 42)
14:27	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: print-limit in this context
14:27	alexyk	something else?
14:27	somnium	length?
14:27	clojurebot	count
14:27	alexyk	ah
14:27	alexyk	clojurebot: don't talk unless talked too, as a good Victorian servant
14:27	clojurebot	a is t
14:27	somnium	I put all the sets into a (user!) fn in my user.clj so I can forget these things
14:28	chouser	StartsWithK: s is a symbol?
14:28	StartsWithK	yes
14:28	chouser	which may have a namespace?
14:29	alexyk	,(set! print-length 42)
14:29	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: print-length with set
14:29	StartsWithK	yes, but a namespace can be in aliased form
14:29	alexyk	I was wondering if we can hack GAE, but nope
14:29	StartsWithK	like 'f/x or 'foo/x in my example
14:30	StartsWithK	i am looking in "make easier to switch between -> and ->>" patch by cgrand, as it looks like we are doing the same thing
14:31	StartsWithK	he has a line "if (and (#{'-> '->> `-> `->>} form) (not (contains? &env form)))"
14:31	StartsWithK	but that too will not work if i alias the core
14:31	chouser	(symbol (namespace (read-string (str "::" s))))
14:32	alexyk	somnium: thx mucho! the very next print I tried after setting the limit would have printed 100 million things. This user! is a must.
14:32	chouser	I think what you really want is clojure.lang.Compiler/namespaceFor, but it's private
14:32	dnolen	is there anything in contrib for converting a string into an inputstream?
14:32	StartsWithK	will that pach then have the sam problem as me?
14:32	chouser	,(with-in-str "hello" (.read in))
14:32	clojurebot	104
14:33	StartsWithK	it's easy to miss in core as you usualy don't alias it by another name
14:33	chouser	StartsWithK: I don't see how an alias for core would cause a problem for cgrand's patch
14:34	StartsWithK	`-> and '-> will not match 'core/-> if clojure.core is aliased to 'core
14:35	alexyk	how do I list the names defined so far in ns again?
14:35	StartsWithK	alexyk, (ns-interns ns)
14:36	alexyk	StartsWithK: thx!
14:36	chouser	StartsWithK: ah, I see. if you alias and then try to use the aliased name. hrm.
14:37	alexyk	now, how can I filter the result of ns-interns by whether it's a function or a value?
14:38	alexyk	...which is not a function? :)
14:38	vagif	hello, i'm reading the source code of contrib.sql.internal
14:38	vagif	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/sql/internal.clj
14:38	vagif	and i cannot find where the function resultset-seq is defined
14:39	chouser	,(map key (filter #(-> % val deref fn?) (ns-publics 'clojure.core)))
14:39	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/*3 is unbound.
14:40	chouser	vagif: it's actually built in -- clojure.core/resultset-seq
14:41	StartsWithK	alexyk, they are all Vars, if you want to check is valu of the var a function, try (map (fn [[k v]] [k (fn? (var-get v))]) (ns-interns ns))
14:42	vagif	chouser: thx
14:43	somnium	,(-> 'clojure-is fn?)
14:43	clojurebot	false
14:43	somnium	,(-> 'clojure-is ifn?)
14:43	clojurebot	true
14:43	somnium	:/
14:44	cgrand	StartsWithK: (and (#{#'-> #'->>} (resolve form)) (not (contains? &env form))) ; should be better
14:44	alexyk	StartsWithK: thx! I did this to see fns: (->> (map (fn [[k v]] [k (fn? (var-get v))]) (ns-interns ns)) (filter second) (map first))
14:44	alexyk	,(->> (map (fn [[k v]] [k (fn? (var-get v))]) (ns-interns ns)) (filter second) (map first))
14:44	clojurebot	()
14:45	cgrand	(except that resolve is defined after ->)
14:46	chouser	,(resolve '(foo bar))
14:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
14:47	chouser	rhickey is mia today. wonder what he's up to.
14:48	StartsWithK	cgrand, that works in my case too
14:49	cgrand	chouser: right, (and (symbol? form) (#{#'-> #'->>} (resolve form)) (not (contains? &env form)))
14:50	StartsWithK	alexyk, just watch for unbound vars, check each 'v with (.isBound v) or you my get a exception when you try var-get
14:51	alexyk	ok
14:51	StartsWithK	try something like (declare c)
14:52	StartsWithK	lisppaste8, help
15:08	AWizzArd	~seen rhickey
15:08	clojurebot	rhickey was last seen quiting IRC, 1835 minutes ago
15:13	chouser	oh, he apparently gave a talk at DRW today, whatever that is.
15:16	dnolen	yes
15:17	dnolen	oops, ignore that.
15:17	alexyk	,1835/60
15:17	clojurebot	367/12
15:17	alexyk	,(/ 1835 60)
15:17	clojurebot	367/12
15:18	alexyk	,(quot 1835 60)
15:18	clojurebot	30
15:19	AWizzArd	chouser: good
15:19	AWizzArd	I just watch him on Channel 9
15:19	chouser	I can't figure out what DRW is
15:20	AWizzArd	Soon we’ll know :)
15:20	alexyk	I'm getting objects from a database, then insert into a transient. How can I parallelize it?
15:20	jasapp	I thought of DSW, immediately, for some reason.
15:20	chouser	AWizzArd: link?
15:20	alexyk	I'd like to have one thread loading things and converting, and another to insert them into the transient when ready
15:20	AWizzArd	http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Expert-to-Expert-Rich-Hickey-and-Brian-Beckman-Inside-Clojure/
15:21	alexyk	"I went deep, man. Deep."
15:21	chouser	AWizzArd: ah, thanks. yeah, I've seen that.
15:22	chouser	and twitter posts saying #DRW don't help
15:23	alexyk	somnium: so there's a clear slowdown, even for the version with the cursor.
15:23	somnium	would putting a transient map in an agent and sending it things to conj! from multiple threads be reasonable?
15:24	somnium	alexyk: how many cores are you working with?
15:24	chouser	oh! DRW, Cloure funder: http://www.drw.com/
15:24	alexyk	somnium: since mongo is not parallel yet, I can have only one cursor anyways, right? 8 cores.
15:24	StartsWithK	well drw = doctor who :)
15:25	alexyk	What really bothers me is that on a virgin JVM, I do my fetch-graph version in 15 minutes; now it will go to 3 hours.
15:25	alexyk	At some point memory usage was 28g out of 31g, now is back to 12g, and fetch is going very slow
15:25	alexyk	nothing else really happened
15:25	somnium	alexyk: but you could make 7 mongods
15:25	somnium	I think
15:26	alexyk	somnium: true. Would I then divide work by issuing partitioned queries?
15:26	AWizzArd	alexyk: is that a g as in "gigabytes"?
15:26	alexyk	AWizzArd: yep
15:27	AWizzArd	is that the amount of RAM your system has?
15:27	alexyk	AWizzArd: it's a 64g box
15:27	alexyk	really need a 256g for this
15:28	somnium	alexyk: maybe ask in #mongodb if that would let you get multiple cursors
15:29	alexyk	somnium: yeah...
15:29	somnium	you could do it with one read thread and a conj! agent but I suspect the overhead would neutralize the benefit
15:29	alexyk	somnium: so any clue what may clog congomongo meanwhile? I do assoc! now instead of conj!, not to waste space twice, btw.
15:30	somnium	alexyk: hard to say whats happening
15:31	alexyk	an identical fetch slows down 10 times, kind of... I wonder whether we can profile mongo-java-driver and congomongo separately
15:31	somnium	alexyk: all the other users (who have commented to me) have said its plenty fast enough, but theyre not juggling terabytes
15:32	alexyk	somnium: it's not terabytes yet! a few puny gigabytes
15:32	somnium	alexyk: have you tried writing the bottlenecks in java? (the loads)
15:33	alexyk	the problem is the slowdown on a JVM which is well back under its Xmx, so it's something fishy. Java didn't occur to me... hmm. I'd rather unleash the agents. :)
15:34	alexyk	I did google for "ocaml mongo", but there isn't one yet :)
15:35	alexyk	somnium: the strangest thing is, as it does it slow fetch, it's decreasing the RAM! Now down to 10g from 12g.
15:36	alexyk	Can it be that congomongo/mongo-java is allocating a lot and then same things are gc'ed?
15:36	hiredman	alexyk: you seem to have theories, how collecting some evidence
15:37	alexyk	somnium: the funny part is, that each graph is mass-insert!'ed in 10 minutes each
15:37	somnium	alexyk: I have to plead utter cluelessness when it comes to jvm internals
15:37	hiredman	enable some debugging options
15:37	alexyk	hiredman: which ones?
15:37	hiredman	you could start with the one to print out GC information
15:38	hiredman	you could also grab a copy of yourkit and profile your app
15:38	hiredman	or visualvm, or whatever
15:40	somnium	alexyk: you could try just calling the java driver from clojure, the driver returns <String><Object> Hashmaps, then write a loop that hammers those into your map, (assuming you know the types in the maps, you may avoid some coercion overhead)
15:41	somnium	alexyk: the wrapper just unravels maps/lists into keyword->object persistent maps/vector trees
15:43	somnium	but I think you may as well try dropping to java if you want to get a baseline for performance
15:43	alexyk	somnium: do you mean to do it in java? I already work the cursor per your gist, still it uses .toClojure
15:43	alexyk	the thing is that the final map of maps must be clojure
15:43	AWizzArd	you put in type hints I guess
15:43	alexyk	hiredman: thx, I'll check those out
15:43	somnium	.toClojure does recursive .instanceOf calls to un-nest
15:43	AWizzArd	warn-on-reflection set to true
15:44	somnium	if you know the structure you can avoid the recursion
15:48	alexyk	somnium: ah!
15:50	alexyk	AWizzArd: what's warn-on-reflection set to true? :) Type hints are not there either, since I'm not sure where to start sticking them in, and everywhere doesn't seem pretty
15:50	hiredman	~performance
15:50	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc46
15:52	AWizzArd	alexyk: whenever you have a (.something ...) then it is not clear for which class the JVM should call .something.
15:52	AWizzArd	You should type hint that to avoid reflection.
15:52	alexyk	aha!
15:53	alexyk	good good
15:54	AWizzArd	if your .toClojure sits in a tight loop and is not type hinted it may run two orders of magnitude slower
15:57	alexyk	AWizzArd: indeed...
15:57	AWizzArd	ja
16:02	alexyk	hey somnium: so I'm using that http://gist.github.com/278490. Should I type hint that cursor is DBCursor, and possibly replace .toClojure by something hand-made?
16:11	somnium	alexyk: you can type hint the target as #^ClojureDBObject too
16:12	alexyk	ok
16:15	alexyk	somnium: say my collection is of the form, {"user":"John","days":{"1":2,"2":7}}. What would .toClojure be replaced with, roughly?
16:17	somnium	alexyk: have you read the source of ClojureDBObject?
16:18	alexyk	somnium: am going to now :)
16:24	somnium	you could have the default be "string" -> object, and then have #{"a" "b" "c"} -> map, and so on, sort of pattern matching on the keys in the root map
16:25	hiredman	or profile and type hint
16:25	somnium	using strings instead of keywords will avoid a little overhead too, the wrapper is aimed at convenience at the cost of a little (usually tolerable) overhead
16:25	somnium	^^
16:25	hiredman	instead of guessing and flailing your arms about
16:26	somnium	yeah, we have no idea where the bottleneck actually is afaik
16:28	saml	hey, how would you replace all \W with white space?
16:28	saml	use Java Matcher and Pattern ?
16:31	alexyk	somnium: so the reflections to avoid are, in toClojureVal, are two checks for instanceof Map/List?
16:32	avarus	hi
16:32	hiredman	are you even setting warn-on-reflection?
16:32	hiredman	are you just guessing where you might be using reflection?
16:32	somnium	alexyk: its the stack-recursion more that the type checking
16:33	alexyk	hiredman: step by step, I'm reviewing now
16:34	saml	(use contrib.str-utils) yay and re-split
16:34	hiredman	what does that mean?
16:34	hiredman	have you set warn-on-reflection and reviewing what it told you?
16:34	hiredman	have you?
16:35	saml	java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main hello.clj --execute="(main command-line-args)" can I do this?
16:35	hiredman	saml: please read the --help
16:35	alexyk	hiredman: I'm speeding-up the alg first; added a type hint for Java method already; then will see what the warning shows
16:35	saml	hiredman: oh thanks
16:35	hiredman	alexyk: stop!
16:36	hiredman	just stop
16:36	alexyk	ok :)
16:36	hiredman	set warn-on-reflection first
16:36	hiredman	adding a million type hints that you might not need is not "working on the algorithm"
16:37	jasapp	it is entertaining to watch, though
16:37	somnium	hiredman: I think theres only two places he could type hint in the loop
16:37	alexyk	hiredman: true, I mean working with somnium to avoid a generic recursive-reflective call with a hand-made
16:38	alexyk	somnium: I thought just one? #^ClojureDBObject cursor
16:38	hiredman	alexyk: have you set warn-on-reflection?
16:38	saml	it seems to be impossible to call a function defined in some.clj file
16:39	alexyk	hiredman: once the current load finishes, I will!
16:39	hiredman	saml: you are going to have to provide more context than that
16:39	hiredman	alexyk: warn-on-reflection is a compile time setting
16:39	somnium	the cursor would be #^DBObject, set warn-on-reflection true, compile the loop, and it should tell you where the reflection happens
16:40	somnium	or smthing, DBCursor
16:40	saml	hiredman: my file ends with ;(main command-line-args) I explictely commented it out so that it won't call main function when I require it or load it on repl
16:40	saml	but i also want it to be executable from command line
16:41	saml	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/973106/what-is-the-clojure-equivalent-of-the-python-idiom-if-name-main hah!
16:41	alexyk	ok, so far I just did (load-file "my-fetch.clj"); will it compile as well or need I do explicit things after warn-on-reflection?
16:41	hiredman	saml: this is in the context of your earlier question?
16:42	hiredman	alexyk: that will compile
16:42	saml	hiredman: yes. that link answered me
16:43	hiredman	alexyk: keep in mind that it will load and compile my-fetch.clj, but not anything it depends on that is already loaded
16:43	alexyk	hiredman: yep, that's ok. Lovely! oodles of info.
16:47	alexyk	so if a typehint is wrong, Clojure silently ignores it, and reflection is warned about?
16:54	alexyk	in a form, (-> cursor .next .toClojure), how can I typehint that .toClojure is called on a #^ClojureDBObject?
16:54	alexyk	cursor is already hinted as #^DBCursor outside
17:01	alexyk	i.e., the question is on how to syntactically stick a type hint in the middle of ->, or would I have to declare an intermediate var
17:02	StartsWithK	do you get a reflection warnning wothout one?
17:03	StartsWithK	(-> "string" #^String (.toUpperCase)) will preserve :tag on final form
17:04	chouser	if .next is declared to return a ClojureDBObject, you don't need to hint .toClojure
17:05	alexyk	StartsWithK: yeah, warning on .toClojure... .next returns a java DBObject, on which we need to tack on .toClojure from ClojureDBObject
17:06	chouser	Try (-> cursor #^ClojureDBObject (.next) .toClojure)
17:07	alexyk	chouser: ok
17:07	alexyk	so in the chain (-> #^TypeHint1 form1 #^TH2 form2) the hints are applied properly to their right-hand forms?
17:08	chouser	alexyk: judging by the source of ->, as long as the form is a list, yes.
17:09	alexyk	cool. hiredman: thanks for advice, java is running fast after some bitch-slapping! or it may be the fresh JVM.
17:09	StartsWithK	that kind of looks like a bug, .toUpperCase when wrapped in a list should pick up meta from .toUpperCase symbol
17:11	jasapp	alexyk: are you timing these, or just feeling better about the speed?
17:11	alexyk	jasapp: I'm timing runs and I have per-million progress throughout all of the code
17:12	alexyk	crucial for me to see progress bar or I want to kill things
17:12	jasapp	cool, so you can actually quantify how much faster it's going?
17:12	alexyk	jasapp: well I just run under (time ...)
17:13	chouser	I assume Clojure's deftype is just like C's typedef, only backwards...
17:13	alexyk	the beauty of clojure, indeed, is how easy is to time things
17:13	jasapp	what kind of speed ups are you getting?
17:14	alexyk	jasapp: you see it's hard to tell. On a fresh JVM I get 50 million records in 15 minutes; on a used one, an hour or 3 hours. Who's responsible, I dunno. It's all somnium's fault, if someone asks.
17:15	alexyk	but, seriously, somnium did a great job. Learning to work congomongo learned me some clojure for real good!
17:16	somnium	alexyk: its barely 300 lines, you could have written it
17:16	alexyk	somnium: 300 lines of clojure, that is :)
17:20	somnium	Im curious about protocols, is a protocol with sig (foo [x]) supposed to be faster than (fn [x] (cond (.isInstance SomeType x) ...)) in the general case?
17:21	chouser	somnium: yes, I think so
17:22	chouser	the latter is essentially what core fns do now (generally implemented in clojure.lang.RT) like 'seq'
17:24	hiredman	protocols are supposed to be more polymophic
17:24	avarus	mhmh...
17:25	hiredman	the clojure rationale page specificly calls out switch statements (like cond) as being too brittle
17:25	avarus	-e "(compile 'foo.bar)" would compile file "bar.clj" in directory "foo" right?
17:25	jlongster	Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out how to list all the files in a directory with clojure. Here's what I've got so far:
17:25	jlongster	(doto (new java.io.File (str ROOT "/blog/")) (listFiles))
17:25	jlongster	But it can't find the listFiles method. How should I do it?
17:25	StartsWithK	jlongster, (file-seq (java.io.File. "base-dir"))
17:26	hiredman	jlongster: you need to but a . infront of methods
17:26	hiredman	.listFiles
17:26	hiredman	avarus: make sure you read the docs on compiling clojure.org/compilation
17:26	devlinsf	Did swank-clojure change recently?
17:28	jlongster	StartsWithK: hiredman: thanks
17:28	avarus	hiredman: ah ok, so the ns thingy and defn -main is needed, thx :)
17:29	hiredman	-main is not needed to compile
17:29	hiredman	it is needed if you want to have a static main method as an entry point
17:29	avarus	ok
17:30	avarus	I have no idea, I just want to set up something I can work with to learn the language
17:31	hiredman	why us compile at all?
17:31	hiredman	why use compile at all?
17:31	hiredman	there is really no point unless you need it, and you will know if you do
17:32	hiredman	clojure always compiles code anyway, compile is just for if you need to keep the class files around
17:32	avarus	ya, I know, java -jar clojure.jar bla.clj sets me up :)
17:33	Chousuke	avarus: the easiest way to learn clojure is just to run emacs and slime and execute whatever code you want in the interactive REPL buffer :P
17:33	Chousuke	avarus: setting up emacs can take some time though, but it's worth it if you ask me :P
17:33	avarus	sure bit I hate emacs
17:33	dnolen	avarus: probably the "easiest" thing to do is setup lein, then you can just do "lein repl"
17:33	dnolen	lein comes with jline so interacting with the REPL isn't too tedious
17:34	jlongster	Is there something that splits an absolute path into a directory name, filename, and extension, or should I use regular expressions?
17:34	avarus	executing java isn't too hard either :)
17:35	hiredman	the repl can use jline and rlwrap without needing lein
17:35	hiredman	lein forces you to have project
17:35	hiredman	some times you just want to run some code
17:35	hiredman	avarus: vim?
17:36	avarus	na, gedit :P
17:36	hiredman	:\|
17:36	hiredman	anyway
17:36	avarus	I press some key and I see the output
17:36	avarus	that's good enough
17:36	hiredman	really, gedit does that?
17:36	dnolen	hiredman: only partly true
17:36	avarus	and I was experimenting with building the jar
17:36	avarus	hiredman: ya
17:36	dnolen	"lein new whatever; lein repl"
17:36	dnolen	sorry
17:36	hiredman	dnolen: so now you have a whatever directory
17:36	avarus	hiredman: it's a plugin called external tools :)
17:36	dnolen	but you can always go there for repl fun
17:37	dnolen	"lein new fun; cd fun; lein repl"
17:37	StartsWithK	avarus, did you try cream? (vim configured as normal editor, vimclojure should work with it too)
17:37	hiredman	java clojure.main
17:37	dnolen	easy to remember to.
17:37	hiredman	much easier
17:37	hiredman	works anywhere
17:37	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple
17:37	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:37	the-kenny	dnolen: You forgot "lein deps"
17:37	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple clojure
17:37	clojurebot	clojure is like life: you make trade-offs
17:38	hiredman	clojurebot: are you kidding me?
17:38	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:38	the-kenny	Or does lein that now by itself?
17:38	dnolen	you don't need that the-kenny: just tried it, seems to work okay
17:38	the-kenny	dnolen: Oh cool
17:38	avarus	StartsWithK: no, but I read about it some time ago
17:38	dnolen	actually
17:38	dnolen	"lein repl" works no project necessary SWEET
17:39	avarus	it's ok that way...I was only confused about the compiling stuff :)
17:39	avarus	I thought that was needed
17:39	avarus	you told me it's not, I tested it, and it works :)
17:39	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple clojure
17:39	clojurebot	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
17:40	avarus	:)
17:40	the-kenny	Uh, the font is way too small here
17:40	avarus	lol
17:41	the-kenny	I like step VI
17:41	hiredman	I don't see how the font could possibly be too small
17:42	avarus	it's too big :P
17:42	Chousuke	hiredman: then it is too small, obviously!
17:42	avarus	:>
17:42	hiredman	your monitor is obviously too small
17:43	Chousuke	yes it is. also it makes a whining noise
17:43	the-kenny	hiredman: hm. Maybe I hit Cmd-- some time ago and my browser remembers this setting during visits
17:43	hiredman	at the office here two people already have 28"
17:43	Chousuke	seriously though, that font is huge :P
17:44	hiredman	it's not that big
17:44	Chousuke	well, I currently have 13.3" & 17" CRT
17:44	hiredman	it's like 12pt
17:45	the-kenny	hiredman: hm.. if it's 12pt, I must accidently typed Cmd-- some time ago
17:45	hiredman	maybe 16
17:45	dnolen	looks huge to me to
17:45	dnolen	more like > 24
17:47	hiredman	shrug
17:47	hiredman	what browser/os?
17:48	hiredman	looks fine in firefox on windows and freebsd
17:48	hiredman	also chrome
17:48	hiredman	and msie8
17:49	hiredman	do you all have macs or something?
17:49	avarus	I don't
17:50	somnium	its huu-uuu-uuge on chrome/linux too :)
17:52	hiredman	well, y'all should fix your browsers
17:52	ahamay	which library would you use to write a parser in clojure?
17:53	hiredman	clojurebot: parse?
17:53	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:53	hiredman	clojurebot: parsing?
17:53	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:53	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
17:53	clojurebot	I know 535 things
17:53	hiredman	hmm
17:54	ahamay	:)
17:55	the-kenny	clojurebot: skynet
17:55	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
17:55	hiredman	parser?
17:55	clojurebot	parser is http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/tree/master
17:55	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
17:55	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:56	ahamay	fnparse seemed a bit cryptic to me - but maybe I just need to get used
17:56	hiredman	there is at least one other parser library, fnparse is the only one I have used
17:57	hiredman	fnparse does tend to shift out from under you
17:57	hiredman	release to release it can vary significantly
17:57	ahamay	ic
17:57	ahamay	guess you mean http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/parser.html
17:57	ahamay	but the download's broken there
17:59	ahamay	ok thx, guess I'll stick to fnparse for the start
17:59	the-kenny	Uhh I'd love a parser like parsec for clojure
18:01	ahamay	yeah, that's what I was hoping for, too
18:02	ahamay	I even checked on JParsec - but to me that seemed closer to JavaCC than Parsec :(
18:02	hiredman	clojurebot uses fnparse
18:02	hiredman	(badly)
18:04	ahamay	after looking at the fnparse tutorial, it seems to do the job okay
18:04	ahamay	I just got scared by looking at the JSON example immediately :)
18:10	somnium	any monad enthusiasts on?
18:11	DeusExPikachu	what's the right way to go about this, I want to create objects for the purpose of creating identities and I want to create a tree datastructure populated with these objects using sequences and other objects, I want to be able to traverse the tree and dispatch based on the class. Now I don't think there is a way to define classes in clojure that I'm aware of, is this the time to use 'derive, thoughts?
18:12	avarus	good night
18:16	ahamay	somnium: I'm a bit into monads and this category theory stuff
18:16	ahamay	though I'm not an expert
18:18	ahamay	DeusExPikachu: won't multimethods be all you need? Or did I get something wrong?
18:19	DeusExPikachu	in case it helps with the explanation, I'm trying to write a very expressive PEG parser generator where the PEG is expressed in this hybrid form of clojure code and these objects that are identities for certain operators
18:19	DeusExPikachu	ahamay: the idea is to use multimethods and dispatch on class, but I dont' know how to define a class
18:20	ahamay	you don't need classes
18:20	DeusExPikachu	I really can't dispatch on anything else but a class cause a class in my case will be the most unique
18:20	DeusExPikachu	everything else can potentially be unintended if something else matches in the clojure code
18:21	ahamay	did you read up about ad-hoc hierarchies and stuff?
18:21	DeusExPikachu	I've been reading it but still don't quite understand the usage
18:22	ahamay	or how about having a :type field with a keyword in it?
18:22	hiredman	DeusExPikachu: I still don't see why you would dispatch on a class
18:22	hiredman	use a keyword
18:22	ahamay	{:type my-type-a :data 42}
18:22	DeusExPikachu	keywords can potentially clash
18:23	DeusExPikachu	I'd have to make it part of the contract that the user not create any code that evaluates to a map with the keyword type
18:23	hiredman	you can namespace qualify keywords
18:23	DeusExPikachu	hmmm, true
18:24	DeusExPikachu	hmm I think that solves it for now
18:24	DeusExPikachu	is that the general way to prevent clashes?
18:25	hiredman	I don't think preventing clashes completely is a good idea
18:25	somnium	ahamay: I have multimethod with sig [x y] dispatching on x, and all methods return [(f x) updated-y], and callers always merge updated-y onto y, kind of passing an environment up and down the stack
18:25	hiredman	some users may want to clash for some reason
18:26	somnium	using macros and map-destructuring to chop at the boiler-plate, but wondering if its a good spot for a monad (which I still dont really get)
18:26	DeusExPikachu	well from a developer standpoint, I don't want clashes interfering with the interface
18:26	ahamay	that indeed sounds like monad usage, yes
18:27	ahamay	though actually I haven't yet looked at the clojure module for it
18:27	ahamay	I was doing Haskell before
18:27	DeusExPikachu	excuse me, I mean interfering with my lib's interface
18:27	hiredman	DeusExPikachu: but somewhere downline the line someone using the software may want a clash for some reason, best to leave them an out somehow
18:28	hiredman	sure, prevent accidental clashes
18:28	hiredman	which namespacing does
18:28	DeusExPikachu	ok, so I guess its idiomatic enough then, thanks
18:28	hiredman	but let people clash if they really really want, even if breaks stuff
18:28	ahamay	I think http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/08/you-could-have-invented-monads-and.html helped me a lot for understanding
18:28	DeusExPikachu	well they can clash it if they want to create a fully qualified keyword now then
18:28	somnium	ahamay: thanks, will read
18:28	hiredman	DeusExPikachu: exactly
18:29	DeusExPikachu	so I think it fulfills what you are talking about in my case too
18:32	ahamay	somnium: I just found http://onclojure.com/2009/03/05/a-monad-tutorial-for-clojure-programmers-part-1/ - did you already look at these?
18:34	somnium	ahamay: yes, I think I got the principles, but havent tried using them in practice yet. maybe this is a good opportunity
18:35	somnium	right now I have a def-envfn macro and a call-envfn macro, and suspect Im reinventing something poorly
18:36	hiredman	maybe an evaluator
18:37	somnium	hiredman: the mechanism, not the application
18:37	somnium	hiredman: it is indeed an evaluator
18:40	technomancy	Raynes: JavaMail is actually very true to the spec. it's the spec that's causing those headaches; it's insane.
18:40	ahamay	if nothing else, understanding monads gave me a good feeling :)
18:42	hiredman	yeah
18:42	hiredman	email is old and crufty
18:45	technomancy	"you have to remember, this was invented twenty years ago, before people were smart."
18:45	technomancy	according to dysinger =)
18:46	hiredman	s/smart/experienced/
19:04	the-kenny	Is congomongo still the "best" client for mongodb?
19:19	Raynes	technomancy: Do you have experience with receiving email in JavaMail via Clojure, by any chance?
19:21	technomancy	Raynes: not directly via IMAP or SMTP, just parsing it from disk.
19:22	Raynes	technomancy: http://gist.github.com/287405 I'm confuzzled as to why it wont let me return mseq because I've closed the folder. I process the emails while the folder is open (mostly toStringing java objects) to stuff I can use.
19:22	Raynes	I can't figure it out.
19:23	Raynes	But I can do whatever with mseq as long as it's before I close the folder. It's confusing, because I don't actually store any Message objects or anything in mseq.
19:23	technomancy	Raynes: actually you're processing them after the folder is closed
19:23	technomancy	clojurebot: map?
19:23	clojurebot	map is lazy
19:23	technomancy	Raynes: ^^
19:23	Raynes	Oh shit.
19:23	technomancy	hehe
19:23	Raynes	Hehe.
19:23	Raynes	:>
19:24	Raynes	You've saved the day.
19:24	technomancy	last time I made that mistake clojurebot was all: map is LAAAAAZY and made me feel more like a doofus. kids these days have it so easy. =)
19:25	Raynes	:)
19:26	DeusExPikachu	technomancy: do you frequent google groups swank-clojure? I posted a bug a day ago, was wondering if you looked into it yet
19:26	Raynes	technomancy: What is the preferred way to force evaluation in this particular situation?
19:26	technomancy	DeusExPikachu: I'm just swamped... behind on all my projects. =\
19:27	technomancy	Raynes: wrap map in a doall
19:27	DeusExPikachu	technomancy: ok, just curious
19:27	Raynes	Alright. Thanks. :)
19:27	technomancy	DeusExPikachu: I will probably get to swank-clojure after I make the next leiningen release
19:28	Raynes	Yay! It works.
19:33	Raynes	technomancy: How does lein test work? It appears that it only looks for a tests.clj file, and if it isn't there, it fails.
19:35	the-kenny	Uhm.. any congomongo-developer here? Why does (databases) return a java ArrayList instead of some clojure-seq?
19:36	technomancy	Raynes: if you give it a list of test nses as CLI args it will use those, otherwise it uses every namespace in the tests/ dir
19:37	Raynes	I tried making a testsomething.clj file with ns testsomething, but it didn't see it.
19:38	Raynes	I'm new to unit testing, so I've probably done something wrong.
19:38	Raynes	I'll figure it out later. :>
19:38	technomancy	Raynes: doing "lein new" on git master will spit out something with the correct structure
19:40	the-kenny	hm.. I have to go to bed. I'll file a bug.
19:40	Raynes	technomancy: Not sure what you mean.
19:40	the-kenny	Night
20:53	dnolen	so do people agree that eval is the only way to accomplish "introspection" when writing macros? that is it's most straightforward to reflect on the current environment
20:53	dnolen	?
20:54	chouser	avoid eval
20:55	chouser	'resolve' isn't quite as bad, though still not always what you want.
20:55	chouser	now you can look at &env as well
20:55	dnolen	chouser: oh yeah, care to explain how &env works? I guess it's what I need
20:56	dnolen	in the past I used eval or resolve because I didn't really know any other to look up the value of previusly defined symbols.
21:00	hiredman	erm
21:02	chouser	a macro that depends on the value of a var or locall is suspect
21:03	dnolen	chouser: I'm reading a file's contents to produce the code for a function
21:05	dnolen	I'd like to avoid what I'm doing but I don't "see" how.
21:05	dnolen	thus the ^ question
21:06	dnolen	basically I'm introspecting on the contents of an HTML file to produce an Enlive template. I want the code to be pretty terse
21:06	dnolen	(templ name path)
21:16	chouser	hm. Well, examining data to produce code and then eval'ing it isn't necessarily wrong, but I don't see what that has to do macros.
21:17	dnolen	chouser: well in order to produce the proper syntax of an Enlive template I need a macro.
21:17	dnolen	basically I'm looking up all the CSS ids, and automatically generating the template to match them so they can be replaced by pass a map to the template.
21:18	dnolen	pass -> passing
21:42	mquander	what's the clojure equivalent of letrec?
21:43	mquander	that is, a let that allows me to bind one variable and then bind another based on the value of the first, hopefully without unnecessary nesting
21:43	mquander	oh, i think it's "let".
21:51	qed	why is it suddenly surprising to some bloggers that leiningen is the community's build tool of choice
21:51	qed	ive been operating under that assumption for 3 months
21:54	qed	why would you use maven or ant?
21:55	qed	how have java developers put up with them for so long?
21:55	dnolen	qed: perhaps because you want something smarter/robust? I like lein because it's simple.
21:55	dnolen	personally I think lein has some issues but I imagine they'll be worked out over the coming months.
21:55	qed	i had no java experience prior to clojure -- but it just baffles me that people used to actually write these gargantuan xml pieces of crap
21:56	qed	no thanks.
21:57	qed	lein definitely has some issues
21:57	qed	but the issue it doesn't have is making the build process a complete fucking bummer
21:57	qed	excuse my french
21:59	qed	i guess i was just surprised people didn't see lein being the standard months ago
22:00	qed	to me it was always the clear winner in build tools
22:02	qed	tbqh being a newbie to clojure and java at the same time, i dont know if i ever would have created a single tangible runnable application in clojure if it weren't for lein -- maven, ant, etc. just looked like complete crap to me, a waste of time to learn
22:03	qed	like "here, sift through this mountain of garbage to piece together a tiny working piece of distributable code"
22:03	mquander	newbie q: is there a lazy-mapcat somewhere that i can use as shorthand for (lazy-cat (map #(lazy-seq (my-real-mapping-fn %)) xs))?
22:03	qed	</rant>
22:04	mquander	er, i know i could actually just use concat there not lazy-cat
22:04	hiredman	,(doc mapcat)
22:04	clojurebot	"([f & colls]); Returns the result of applying concat to the result of applying map to f and colls. Thus function f should return a collection."
22:04	qed	there's a mapcat iirc
22:04	mquander	i just don't like having to wedge the lazy-seq into my mapping lambda
22:04	mquander	oh, yeah, i guess i can use that to shorten it on front
22:04	mquander	that's pretty good then
22:05	hiredman	you know map is lazy right?
22:05	hiredman	having lazy-seq there makes no sense
22:05	mquander	map is lazy? heck no i did not know that
22:05	qed	:)
22:05	mquander	that is awesome
22:05	hiredman	,(doc map)
22:05	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
22:06	mquander	geez problem annihilated then
22:06	hiredman	…
22:06	qed	:\|
22:07	qed	the clojure spirit sometimes wraps me up, swallows me whole, and spits me out
22:07	qed	it's like christmas, except real
22:07	hiredman	mquander: I don't think lazy-seq does what you think it does, so until you read up on it, I would pretend you hadn't heard of it
22:08	hiredman	most of the functions that operate on sequences use lazy-seq internally, so you should not worry about it at all
22:08	mquander	ok, i see. i didn't realize that.
22:08	qed	what did lazy-seq used to be?
22:08	qed	lazy-cat was it?
22:08	hiredman	lazy-seq does not magically make a seq lazy, the seq has to be constructed using lazy-seq
22:08	hiredman	qed: lazy-cons
22:09	qed	ah yes, thanks
22:10	hiredman	but that changed long ago
22:10	qed	where long ago == 4 months
22:11	mquander	if map is lazy, then why does this happen?
22:11	brweber2	,(println "hey folks")
22:11	clojurebot	hey folks
22:11	mquander	(defn expensive-operation [n] (print "foo") n)
22:11	mquander	(first (map expensive-operation [1 2 3])) ;; prints "foo" 3 times
22:12	qed	,(source println)
22:12	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
22:12	hiredman	mquander: oh, complain to rhickey about it
22:13	qed	,(doc prn)
22:13	clojurebot	"([& more]); Same as pr followed by (newline). Observes flush-on-newline"
22:13	hiredman	mquander: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Chunked_Seqs
22:14	alexyk	how do you convert a :10 to number 10?
22:15	hiredman	http://blog.fogus.me/2010/01/22/de-chunkifying-sequences-in-clojure/
22:16	mquander	i see. thanks hiredman
22:16	dnolen	,(Integer/parseInt (name :10))
22:16	clojurebot	10
22:16	dnolen	alexyk: ^
22:16	qed	alexyk: well done sir
22:17	qed	i couldnt find that
22:17	alexyk	qed: dnolen did it!
22:17	qed	oh oops
22:17	qed	dnolen: you're a champ. i love you.
22:17	qed	(alexyk is okay, too)
22:18	alexyk	qed: cheers!
22:18	qed	to clojure!
22:18	alexyk	Glenfiddich all around!
22:18	qed	so im not the only clojurist with a penchant for scotch
22:19	qed	alexyk: where are you from?
22:19	alexyk	New England. Formerly Russia...
22:20	qed	ah -- well, next time im out east i owe you a drink
22:21	alexyk	:)
22:22	alexyk	we can go visit cemerick too
22:22	qed	!!!
22:22	alexyk	in his MA hamlet
22:22	qed	not the vietnam-type hamlet
22:22	alexyk	hamlet is a processed piglet
22:22	qed	or the shakespearean hamlet
22:22	alexyk	or when-let
22:23	alexyk	(hamlet [ham (...
22:23	qed	i can get behind ham
22:23	alexyk	(hamlet (to-be ...) (or (not( to-be ...
22:23	qed	not literally
22:25	qed	(def to-be true)
22:25	alexyk	that's optimism!
22:26	qed	haha
22:26	mquander	(def the-question (or to-be (not to-be)))
22:26	mwilliams_	~seen technomancy
22:26	clojurebot	technomancy was last seen quiting IRC, 72 minutes ago
22:26	mquander	a sufficiently smart compiler would just optimize hamlet's question out imo
22:26	qed	alexyk: im trying to start up an Erdos-esque travel schedule
22:27	qed	can I come visit you with a suitcase and amphetamines in-tow?
22:28	alexyk	qed: you have to sell off all possessions then and live out a backpack. I got two small kids though which only eat healthy stuff; but the Appalachian trail passes right next to our house, and shadowy bearded types spend the nights in small tents in the snow...
22:29	qed	the trouble with computer science is you need a computer to test it
22:29	qed	i wish i could get rid of this damned thing
22:29	alexyk	qed: that's the paradox of a computer scientist. To teach the stupidest and dumbest machine to do what a 5-year old kid knows.
22:30	qed	i should write a book about doing CS for a year without a computer
22:30	alexyk	qed: well you can have iPhone with IRC and ask people to compute for you
22:30	qed	nah that'd be cheating
22:30	clojurebot	is_rhickey_a_minor_god is yes
22:31	alexyk	or you can leave sexps to be eval'ed on scraps of paper
22:31	qed	i have so many books and junk downloaded -- i just need to print it all and disconnect
22:31	alexyk	qed: printing is old, stuff it into kindle
22:31	mquander	leaving paper in public place, waiting for someone to write response on it = very lazy evaluation
22:31	alexyk	or Apple tablet coming tmrw
22:32	qed	mquander: lol,
22:32	alexyk	mquander: right, and responses might be in any FP language, like Erlang or OCaml
22:32	qed	the apple tablet is going to be a disappointment and i know it
22:32	alexyk	qed: I wouldn't be so sure
22:32	qed	if it isn't eink, i dont care about it :(
22:32	qed	i doubt they have a dual purpose screen
22:32	qed	if they do ill buy one on the spot
22:32	alexyk	qed: well, in fact I prefer to read off my iPhone instead of a Kindle DX
22:33	qed	alexyk: yes, but you're absolutely mad
22:33	qed	so who would trust your opinion?
22:34	alexyk	eink works for hours on end to read, then I do the DX
22:34	alexyk	qed: well, I'll take it as a compliment for now :)
22:34	qed	:)
22:34	qed	have you read Logicomix?
22:34	qed	(highly recommended)
22:34	alexyk	never heard of it
22:34	qed	the first and only graphic novel ive ever read
22:35	qed	http://www.logicomix.com/en/
22:35	mquander	i want device with touchscreen, hardware keyboard that folds up underneath it but can extend to a normal laptop form factor
22:35	qed	i want a device that doesnt run iphone OS
22:35	mquander	that too :X
22:35	qed	because it clearly sucks
22:36	qed	can you imagine a 10" screen covered in apps?
22:36	qed	what a waste of machine
22:37	qed	unless i can compile and run emacs23, Terminal.app, and chrome -- ill pass
22:37	mquander	i just want something light and small that i can both program on and draw diagrams on
22:38	qed	mquander: i think we're thinking alike here
22:38	qed	i played with the iphone liberally -- adding ssh to it, installing stuff on it, like GHC and such
22:39	qed	but it was never that mythical machine that this tablet could potentially be
22:39	qed	the rumors suggest it runs iphone OS
22:39	qed	which makes it completely sad
22:39	mquander	only source i saw for that one was some textbook CEO on cable news
22:39	qed	yes the mcgraw hill asshole
22:40	qed	hopefully he is wrong about the iphone OS
22:40	mquander	as if that guy can tell an OS from his rear end
22:40	qed	the mcgraw hill guy, regardless of what OS the tablet runs, needs a new rug
22:40	qed	that thing was atrocious
22:40	mquander	anyway, if it runs mac OS, i would expect them to cook up some custom UI on top of it, sort of like smartphones and like that windows media center thing
22:41	mquander	so probably textbook guy would be clueless as to what was under the hood
22:41	qed	yeah, that's to be expected, id be very happy with that
22:41	qed	but if it's just iphone OS, 10 inches big
22:41	qed	that's going to be a very sad state of affairs
22:41	qed	(until it's jailbroken)
22:41	mquander	that would be really lame, until jailbroken.
22:41	mquander	i feel guilty about buying apple products when they contribute to this lame walled garden stuff
22:41	mquander	i wish the products weren't as good as they are
22:42	qed	mquander: the next phone i get wont be apple
22:42	qed	hello N900
22:43	mquander	likewise.
22:44	qed	apple really set the stage for such a phone
22:44	qed	but it doesnt change the fact that apple is now being outclassed by their competition in features and extensability
22:45	qed	my dream: a tablet with really revolutionary tactile feedback mechanism -- a full OS with a layer of software to make it easy to use via touchscreen
22:46	qed	im big on my keyboards. im certainly the minority here i think, but im typing on a 250$ keyboard. why? feedback.
22:47	qed	the touch screens are a joke
22:48	qed	without feedback or a neural interface the'll always be substandard
22:55	alexyk	when I call (map ... <some map>), the map is seq'd. If I do (pmap ... <some map>), will it seq first or do I have to seq manually?
22:57	alexyk	I see it mostly at 100%, 400-500% inly blinks for a moment
22:57	alexyk	only
23:01	alexyk	I run pmap on a seq of pairs, then join them as a map with (into {}). Given keys don't overlap, is there a faster way?