#clojure – 2010-01-19

2010-01-19

00:00	defn	seen _ato?
00:00	defn	clojurebot: seen _ato?
00:00	clojurebot	no, I have not seen _ato
00:00	defn	on freenode you can do a nickserv info on the nick
00:00	derrida	defn: well, i can't create one using that swank-project command
00:00	defn	derrida: create one?
00:00	derrida	defn: so i just used an existing project i downloaded
00:01	derrida	http://sprunge.us/VZMU
00:04	defn	derrida: get rid of the repositories line in the file, as well as that 2nd :dev-dependencies [[lein-clojars...]] line
00:04	defn	that shouldn't be necessary
00:05	derrida	defn: thats the one you told me to add?
00:05	defn	no i told you to add the swank-clojure line
00:05	defn	not the other one
00:05	derrida	ohhhh
00:06	defn	change org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT" to "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
00:06	defn	run lein deps again
00:06	defn	rinse, repeat
00:07	derrida	hm
00:07	derrida	still not working
00:08	derrida	is it a problem that clojure 1.0 is being used with 1.1 contrib?
00:08	derrida	woah this is the java line starting the repl: java -classpath /home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.jar:/home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar:/home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-slim-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.jar:/home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-slim-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar:/home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-slim.jar:/home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-sources-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.jar:/home/derrida/.clojure/clojure-sources-1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar:/ho
00:13	derrida	defn: i think i found it
00:16	derrida	nah. same stuff http://pastie.org/784329
00:16	derrida	oh well, it's been fun
00:26	alexyk	somnium: I recompiled the heck out of clojure/contrib/leiningen congomongo and can no longer use it :(
00:27	alexyk	says can't locate somnium/congomongo.clj on the classpath
00:27	alexyk	I see that congomongo.jar has src/clj/congomongo.jar
00:27	alexyk	how is it being added to classpath as somnium/congomongo.clj?
00:30	defn	derrida: wish i could be of more help, but im not sure what you're trying to accomplish
00:30	derrida	i want to use clojure tha way i use clozure
00:31	defn	im not familiar with clozure so you'll need to be more explicit
00:32	derrida	did you ever use slime prior to clojure?
00:33	derrida	i use it as an integral part of my development process where i'm really interacting with my code (as i code/while i code)
00:33	alexyk	derrida: http://data-sorcery.org/2009/12/20/getting-started/
00:33	derrida	afaict, this is just a clojure repl inside of emacs?
00:34	derrida	alexyk: that sounds very promising from the first sentence :>
00:34	derrida	alexyk: i assumed that had to be the case which is why i'm feeling a bit unraveled by the whole thing
00:35	alexyk	yeah, stick to your current editor or use a careful setup guide
00:35	derrida	defn: more specifically, i will compile a file (derrida.lisp) [C-c C-k]
00:35	derrida	alexyk: ? i love emac
00:35	derrida	s
00:35	alexyk	ah ok, sry
00:36	derrida	defn: then, from the slime-repl, i'm able to access the running code
00:37	derrida	defn: currently, this is not happening and beyond just not happening emacs goes into a state of "constant polling" where it seems to just be endlessly trying to connect to the repl
00:38	technomancy	derrida: how are you launching slime?
00:38	derrida	when i hit [C-c C-k] for .1 second i see it say [Not Connected] in the minibuffer
00:38	derrida	M-x slime
00:38	technomancy	derrida: what's the content of ~/.swank-clojure?
00:39	derrida	the three jars that were installed by elpa (which didn't work) so i tried adding the root folder of swank-clojure in there also and had the same result
00:39	derrida	currently looks like this: clojure-1.1.0-master-20091202.150145-1.jar clojure-contrib-1.1.0-master-20091212.205045-1.jar pom.xml README src/ swank-clojure-1.1.0.jar target/
00:40	technomancy	derrida: are you on an older build of Emacs maybe?
00:40	hyp3rvigi1ant	derrida: i was having the same problem with slime...sometimes it would eventually connect after it polled for a few dozen times, but most of the time it would poll for hundreds of times with no results
00:40	derrida	git pull
00:40	derrida	technomancy: ^^
00:41	derrida	(about the git pull)
00:41	derrida	hyp3rvigi1ant: i wasn't going to say but i could have sworn it's connected a few times here too :)
00:42	derrida	i just assumed ihad accidentally started clozure instead
00:42	technomancy	derrida: all your deps seem to be in place, but maybe you could try just rm -rf ~/.swank-clojure and try again?
00:42	derrida	sure
00:42	technomancy	using swank-clojure and slime from elpa?
00:42	derrida	yeah, everything from elpa
00:42	hyp3rvigi1ant	i just tried it again now, and it's polled almost 250 times already, with no connection...but when i start swank using lein, and i connect to it from emacs, it works fine
00:42	derrida	i totally wiped emacs to get a clean slate
00:42	technomancy	hmm... I can't repro
00:43	technomancy	never heard of that problem before
00:43	derrida	google cropped up some results
00:43	derrida	no answers
00:43	derrida	hyp3rvigi1ant: well, that's very interesting
00:43	technomancy	not finding clojure.lang.RT means it's a problem with Clojure, not with Swank or Emacs
00:43	hyp3rvigi1ant	I'm on Ubuntu using GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.18.3)
00:43	hyp3rvigi1ant	of 2009-11-10 on vernadsky, modified by Debian
00:43	hyp3rvigi1ant	Ubuntu 9.10
00:44	derrida	how do you start swank from lein?
00:45	derrida	i have added nothing to my .emacs btw?
00:46	alexyk	somnium: pinggg
00:46	derrida	technomancy: what are you saying?
00:47	hyp3rvigi1ant	derrida: lein swank
00:47	hyp3rvigi1ant	you need to have [leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0"] and [swank-clojure "1.1.0"] as dependencies in your project.clj file
00:48	derrida	so you would do this for each project you were working on?
00:48	hyp3rvigi1ant	that's what i do...i've been using lein since earlier today, though, lol...not a pro
00:49	derrida	:)
00:51	hyp3rvigi1ant	i do have swank-clojure jar-path, jar-home, and classpath set in my .emacs file...not sure if i have it set correctly or anything, though
00:52	derrida	technomancy: afaict that error is not saying it can't find clojure.lang.RT .. it's saying it can't find the swank class
00:53	derrida	technomancy: it's the standard ClassNotFoundException
00:56	technomancy	derrida: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/RT (swank.clj:0)
00:56	derrida	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/NoClassDefFoundError.html
00:56	derrida	is this a different error?
01:03	derrida	hyp3rvigi1ant: would you mind showing me those lines from you .emacs
01:05	hyp3rvigi1ant	derrida: here's what it is currently: http://pastie.org/784366
01:06	derrida	thank you
01:06	hyp3rvigi1ant	np
01:14	alexyk	technomancy: how do I tell lein to start swank on a specific port?
01:22	technomancy	albino: it should accept it as a command-line argument
01:22	albino	okay
01:22	defn	Streaking
01:23	defn	lol, oops
01:36	wooby	hello, i can't seem to get leiningen to recognize the 'swank' task
01:36	tomoj	did you add lein-swank to the dev-dependencies?
01:37	wooby	i've added swank-clojure to dev-deps, would anyone happen to know if there's something else i need to do?
01:37	wooby	aha
01:37	tomoj	yes, see the README.md in lein-swank/ for the details
01:37	tomoj	though, back when I tried it last (which was a while ago) it didn't work right
01:38	tomoj	when I slime-connect'd, the classpath wasn't set up right, so that I couldn't compile with C-c C-k
01:38	wooby	ah
01:38	tomoj	that may have been a problem with my setup or it may have been fixed since
01:39	wooby	i had it working at some point myself
01:43	wooby	wee, took some tinkering but it's working now
01:43	wooby	thanks again tomoj
01:46	tomoj	sure
01:46	tomoj	I should try it again sometime
01:46	tomoj	there is a small probability that I might get to use clojure in the wild for backend processing :D
01:46	tomoj	(I currently prefer haskell or erlang :/ but those are even smaller probabilities)
01:47	replaca	Q: how do I get clojure-mode/slime to indent a macro's body form without telling it explicitly? I thought if I sent the macro to the slime buffer that would do it
01:48	technomancy	replaca: that's not implemented in the clojure backend currently, only for CL
01:49	technomancy	replaca: the correct answer is "name your macro with-*"
01:49	technomancy	=)
01:49	replaca	technomancy: ahh, ok. memories from the old days :-)
01:50	replaca	with-* would be a bad name for my macro :). It's a variant of for that makes maps
01:50	replaca	sparing me infinite into {}s
01:51	replaca	suddenly this week (for ...) and (merge-with ...) are my best friends
01:51	technomancy	merge-with is awesome
01:52	replaca	indeed. I'm in the midst of gluing multiple two-level maps together into three level maps
01:53	replaca	trying to figure out what's happening with thousands of our machines after they leave our factory
02:10	wooby	hm, anyone ever get "java.lang.Error: can't load apple.laf.AquaLookAndFeel" with swing on mac?
02:41	defn	wooby: sorry no -- someone did a tutorial on swing + mac not too long ago
02:41	defn	check disclojure.org -- that's probably your best bet
02:43	wooby	defn: thanks, i managed to fix it... custom swank stuff conflicting with elpa
02:43	wooby	elpa's swank that is
02:45	defn	wooby: ah
02:45	wooby	now i'm cookin' ;)
02:45	wooby	thanks anyways, and goodnight
03:25	LauJensen	Anybody putting in work on clojure-android?
03:49	quizme	If i have a string like "{:a 1, :b 2}" how do I read that string as data?
03:49	quizme	i want to say something like (def x (eval "{:a 1, :b 2}"))
03:51	quizme	i want that Java string to be converted into a hashmap.
04:00	LauJensen	,(read-string "{:a 5 :b 10}")
04:00	clojurebot	{:a 5, :b 10}
04:01	unfo-	cool! didn't know that
04:01	unfo-	it's good to hang out here :)
04:01	spariev_	quizme: also see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1885448/how-do-you-evaluate-a-string-as-a-clojure-expression
04:01	quizme	ok thank you
04:03	quizme	read-string ... that's what i wanted. thanks
04:05	LauJensen	np
04:14	defn	just a note to anyone who has been dragging their feet: The Joy of Clojure is absolutely the Book to Buy
04:15	defn	it doesn't try to be "learn clojure in 24 hours", which is sort of how I felt while reading through pragprog's clojure book
04:16	defn	chouser is undoubtedly the guy to be writing a book on clojure -- absolutely awesome job
04:16	esj	defn: agreed its a knockout
04:17	esj	really helping me understand the Tao of Clojure
04:18	gko	Is Joy of Clojure for 1.0 or pre-1.1 ?
04:19	defn	not sure where it's at -- they have about 4 chapters done, and the first four chapters is better than anything ive read
04:20	defn	100+ pages for 4 chapters, with a TOC that boasts 14 IIRC
04:20	defn	it's going to be a monster reference
04:22	esj	what am I misunderstanding here:
04:22	esj	,((set '(1 2 3 4 5)) 3)
04:22	clojurebot	3
04:22	esj	,((sorted-set '(1 2 3 4 5)) 3)
04:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
04:22	esj	:(
04:23	esj	why can a sorted-set not be used as a predicate for its members ?
04:32	dnolen	,((sorted-set 1 2 3 4 5) 3)
04:32	clojurebot	3
04:32	dnolen	esj: ^
04:32	esj	interesting ! thanks.
04:33	euwyn	defn: thanks for the heads up on the joy of closure. was just working through pragprog.
04:33	dnolen	,((apply sorted-set '(1 2 3 4 5)) 3)
04:33	clojurebot	3
04:44	esj	,(class (sorted-set 5 1 4 2 3))
04:44	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeSet
04:44	esj	,(class ( sorted-set [5 1 4 2 3]))
04:44	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeSet
04:45	esj	so this is a laziness effect in constructing the sorted-set, I guess.
04:54	maacl	Is there a swank-clojure command to execute tests? I am using swank-clojure-project
04:57	technomancy	maacl: sure, clojure-test-mode
04:57	technomancy	it's another library to get from elpa
04:57	maacl	Ah - thanks
04:58	technomancy	you might run into a bug installing it; if so just rm -rf ~/.emacs.d/elpa/swank-clojure before installing clojure-test-mode and it will reinstall swank-clojure
04:58	technomancy	I've fixed the package.el bug, but it hasn't made it out to the repos yet
04:59	maacl	technomancy: thanks - it will work from the actual code buffer - or do I have to switch to the buffer that contains the tests?
05:00	technomancy	it has to be from the test buffer
05:03	maacl	technomancy: would be hard to add the capability to swank-clojure-project to run tests in /tests - it think that would be very useful
05:03	maacl	technomancy: maybe also autorun tests if anything changes in the src tree
05:06	LauJensen	technomancy: Is there a swank-clojure-bleeding-edge which clones, builds and installs ?
05:07	technomancy	LauJensen: once you have a checkout, lein install should be enough for the java side
05:07	technomancy	but coordinating the elisp side with the java side is really hard
05:07	technomancy	*jvm side
05:07	LauJensen	oh really?
05:08	LauJensen	I thought all you had to do was issue a command and wait for a return code
05:34	derrida	is it just me or does maven seem ungodly slow a lot of the time? heh
05:35	derrida	http://dpaste.com/147356/
05:35	harblcat	this is an out-of-the-blue question, but would anyone know of any board-game engines in clojure?
05:40	harblcat	or really, any sort of material at all on the subject? I've looked at something called "Zillions of Games", and the way to make a new game is to use something akin to lisp (specialized s-expressions), so it shouldn't be too hard to do the same in clojure.
05:41	LauJensen	harblcat: for all things related to gaming I recommend having a look at JMonkeyEngine
05:43	harblcat	LauJensen: it is a java library?
05:46	LauJensen	~google jmonkeyengine
05:46	clojurebot	First, out of 6440 results is:
05:46	clojurebot	jMonkeyEngine.com
05:46	clojurebot	http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/
05:46	LauJensen	Yes sir - You need to make some kind of interface, I did one ages ago
05:47	LauJensen	~sofiaba
05:47	clojurebot	sofiaba is http://wiki.github.com/Lau-of-DK/sofiaba
05:47	LauJensen	Its in a state of bitrot, but you'll see how easy it is to initialize a full 3d world with dynamic water, lighting etc
05:47	harblcat	LauJensen: thanks a lot!
05:48	LauJensen	ah I see the URL has changed http://github.com/LauJensen/sofiaba
05:49	LauJensen	Unfortunately I no longer had the screenshots - they were gorgeous
05:49	LauJensen	clojurebot: forget sofiaba
05:49	clojurebot	I forgot sofiaba
05:51	harblcat	woah, grappling hook was made in that engine. I didn't even know..
05:55	LauJensen	Somebody made a massive 12 (?) part tutorial, showing how to build a capture the flag race-game, a must-read
05:58	harblcat	I've got a lot of studying to do, I think :)
05:58	harblcat	thanks again!
06:00	LauJensen	np
06:00	LauJensen	But just to be clear, if what you just need a simple board game ala checkers - Maybe rolling your own isn't a bad idea
06:00	LauJensen	(I'd hate to waste your time)
06:22	lypanov	hey rhickey
06:22	rhickey	lypanov: hi
06:25	angerman	is it a good idea to span hundrets of agents? or should I better keep an agent pool around the size (e.g. 4 times the system's cores)?
06:25	djpowell	agents aren't threads - the functions that you dispatch to them run on a thread-pool
06:26	rhickey	angerman: depends on what they are doing, if computation, not much reason to have more than ncores
06:26	rhickey	but send takes care of that
06:27	angerman	rhickey: I'm pulling data from a database table, process it, and send it of to some writer-agents, that write the data to the according file
06:27	rhickey	send-off will create many, which makes sense if some are blocking, doing nothing
06:27	rhickey	best idea if there is some I/O in the mix is to put a knob on it
06:53	angerman	Well I used to have a dispatch agent, that was set up as watcher over all the worker agents.
06:53	angerman	and when ever a workeragents state changed, it assigned a new task to the agent, until the task queue was empty
06:56	angerman	and I was just wondering if it was simpler to just create an agent for each task and wait till all are done
07:00	angerman	maybe futures are what I'm looking at?
07:01	LauJensen	agents carry state, futures launch seperate threads, conceptually they are different
07:02	angerman	If I send multiple tasks to an agent, the agents works them down one by one, right?
07:22	LauJensen	Yes
07:26	LauJensen	At least thats how I understand http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Agent.java#L240
07:26	angerman	LauJensen: I ahve 1300 taks to be completed.
07:27	angerman	I guess a straight forward approach would be to partition them on size n
07:27	angerman	and have n agents work down those taks.
07:27	LauJensen	What are the tasks?
07:27	angerman	The issue I'm facing though is that the time for each task may vary. And thus in the end I have n-1 agents done and one agent still crunchin away for some time to be
07:28	angerman	LauJensen: read data from the database according to a query, process the data and send it off to be written out to a file
07:28	LauJensen	Are we talking 10ms tasks or 10min. tasks?
07:29	angerman	5-10min
07:29	angerman	maybe some are 1 min.
07:31	LauJensen	rhickey: What did you mean when you advised him to put a knob on it ?
07:32	rhickey	LauJensen: make the number of agents used a variable/argument to the process
07:33	angerman	rhickey, LauJensen: ok, that makes sense so far.
07:33	rhickey	angerman: the true answer to irregular task processing times is something like fork/join
07:33	angerman	I'm still not so certain how to implement a mechanism to chew down a queue in parrallel.
07:33	angerman	I'm luck though that I don't need the returnvalue.
07:35	LauJensen	I'm wondering if rhickey approach won't just result in behavior very similar to (pmap #(process-task %) tasks)
07:35	angerman	LauJensen: I guess I'm looking for a pdoseq
07:36	LauJensen	angerman: (dorun (pmap)) should do fine then
07:36	LauJensen	I think if you let 500 agents loose they'll just crater your I/O performance
07:37	angerman	Hm. But pmap does have an synchronization overhead, right?
07:38	LauJensen	~source pmap
07:39	rhickey	pmap's sliding window is pretty handy, you might need to partition first in order to create large enough work units
07:40	angerman	rhickey: so you basically mean glue 3-5 tasks together
07:41	rhickey	angerman: it depends on how much work is in one task, no need to do that unless pmap is slower than map
07:41	angerman	rhickey: each task takes between 1min and 10min
07:42	rhickey	but you still have issues with irregular task times, as pmap won't get far ahead of a slow task
07:42	rhickey	angerman: oh, then pmap overhead is nothing relative to those times
07:42	angerman	Hm. I'll try pmap
07:42	rhickey	pmap overhead can be a problem when the job is: +
07:43	rhickey	angerman: a problem with pmap for you might be that your jobs are I/O bound, not computation bound, is that correct?
07:43	angerman	well. the sql server runs locally. so it's mostly cpu bound
07:44	rhickey	well, if I/O bound you can actually benefit from having more threads than cores, to a point
07:44	rhickey	subject to your I/O system
07:45	angerman	I'll try and see how the system-meter looks
07:45	LauJensen	rhickey: since pmap will wait for a lingering task, perhaps its best just to settle on 4, 8 or 16 threads and feed them tasks as they finish, that way pmap wont just wait
07:45	rhickey	where do the tasks come from?
07:46	rhickey	LauJensen: 4/8/16 = knob
07:46	djpowell	(I have some slow IO from clojure being processed by some java, and dragging stuff through a LinkedBlockingQueue seems to work well for me)
07:47	LauJensen	angerman: How long do you expect the total processing time to be ?
07:47	rhickey	djpowell: yes, I was just about to recommend stuffing work in queue, then having a set of futures each of which loops taking one job from queue until done
07:48	rhickey	as long as the jobs come from a known place in advance, vs being the results of other jobs
07:48	angerman	LauJensen: at least a night
07:49	angerman	rhickey: no. I know them in advance
07:49	LauJensen	angerman: If this is an ever growing dataset you're working on, maybe you should consider making it a map-reduce job and running it on Hadoop ? That'll clear any scheduling concerns you might have
07:49	angerman	LauJensen: It's for now a one-shot
07:50	LauJensen	Ah ok
07:50	angerman	working with MicroArray Data is just painful at best
07:51	LauJensen	This is where Rich jumps in saying "Pain, does not exist, in this Dojo! DOES IT?" :)
07:51	LauJensen	And Chouser goes "No sensei!" :)
07:52	angerman	Hm. It's not clojure specific.
07:52	rhickey	angerman: then you can have one future fill a LBQ http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/LinkedBlockingQueue.html with a fixed capacity, and N other futures looping pulling out a job and doing it
07:53	rhickey	workflow => queue
07:53	djpowell	I guess you need to put N 'poison' objects into the queue after the data, so that the consumers can shut themselves down
07:53	rhickey	djpowell: no, they shutdown when no job to pull
07:53	angerman	If I know the size I need in advance, I can just create a queue of that size right?
07:54	rhickey	angerman: no, you probably don't want all jobs in memory at once, just use a capacity a bit larger than the number of workers
07:54	angerman	rhickey: I'm having the jobs in a list already. (?)
07:55	rhickey	lbq ctor takes a capacity, when the queue reaches that size the producer blocks
07:55	rhickey	angerman: if it already fits i nmemrory, then stick into lbq with no bound, that's fine
07:55	djpowell	rhickey: how will the consumers no that there is no job to pull? won't they just block forever?
07:55	angerman	djpowell: using poll
07:56	djpowell	s/no/know
07:56	rhickey	poll, not take
07:57	djpowell	what if the producer is dead slow though? the consumer might take the last one before the producer has added the next
07:57	rhickey	djpowell: that's not angerman's situation
07:58	djpowell	ah ok - sry - wasn't really paying attention
07:58	angerman	djpowell: using a global flag to indicate the producers state?
07:58	rhickey	djpowell: in the general case, non-infinite queues need termination messages, yes
07:59	rhickey	angerman: usually you'd try to put something in the queue
08:00	angerman	yes, that's probably a better idea ...
08:00	rhickey	then the protocol is: peek for termination, poll with timeout
08:01	rhickey	don't remove termination, leave for others
08:02	angerman	hmm. how do I block for a seq of futures?
08:02	rhickey	angerman: to know when you are done?
08:02	rhickey	use a countdown latch
08:02	rhickey	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/CountDownLatch.html
08:03	rhickey	have launcher set it up with n set to number of workers, each worker counts down when done, launcher blocks on await
08:04	angerman	thanks
08:04	rhickey	java.util.concurrent's workflow stuff is very good, and works well with Clojure. I didn't wrap it, but should, since few people know about it
08:06	djpowell	angerman: 'Java Concurrency In Practice' is a good book if you want to learn about it.
08:07	djpowell	it is a bit overwhelming otherwise, knowing what to use when
08:07	angerman	djpowell: thanks. I've had abandoned java for years.
08:07	angerman	Sometimes just using it under the hood in Matlab, to plug holes
08:15	LauJensen	rhickey: I was thinking of wrapping u.concurrent as well, but where in the eco-system does this fit compared to the fork/join stuff from par ?
08:17	rhickey	LauJensen: j.u.c is workflow (queues/latches), cache-like collections, and exectutors. Only the latter overlaps with fork/join
08:17	LauJensen	Ok, thanks
08:17	rhickey	the big utility of j.u.c. for Clojure users is in the workflow
08:18	rhickey	fork/join will be preferable to executors
08:19	defn	chouser: Your book is fantastic.
08:20	LauJensen	rhickey: I haven't digged into fork/join yet, but can their executors be combined with the workflow from util.concurrent ?
08:21	rhickey	LauJensen: they can, it's all just threads under the hood. But like any thread pool, you have to be concerned about blocking starving the pool
08:21	angerman	hm. Did the agent logic change in 1.1?
08:24	angerman	I htink this http://pastie.org/784694 did work previously
08:25	LauJensen	(send printe....) typo ?
08:26	angerman	no, those came from typing of from head
08:26	LauJensen	ah, the reader macro ^ is deprecated
08:27	angerman	but depricated doesn't mean dead. right?
08:31	_fogus	defn: On behalf of chouser, Thanks! :-)
08:55	angerman	Today is a bad day :(
08:57	AWizzArd	uh oh..
08:57	angerman	things just don't work out today for me.
08:58	AWizzArd	Are those things you have control over? Such as computer programs? ;-)
08:58	angerman	right now it's mostly clojure errors I'm having serious trouble to understand
08:59	angerman	Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword in the (ns ... block)
09:00	AWizzArd	You could delete everything from the file with the exception of the (ns ...) which is in the beginning. Then compile and see if it works.
09:00	AWizzArd	If it does work then paste some parts of the other code back, and try again. And that way put more and more code back into the file.
09:01	angerman	http://pastie.org/784744
09:01	AWizzArd	If it does not work then you have indeed an error in the (ns ...) form.
09:01	AWizzArd	Why so many uses of :use?
09:01	AWizzArd	I suggest to have exactly one :use in the ns form
09:04	dnolen	angerman: that's probably an error in your own library your trying to include right? I removed those use exprs and it worked fine for me.
09:05	angerman	hm. I'll try to dig some deeper.
09:05	AWizzArd	you can comment out all lines and bring them in one by one, seeing at what point the error pops up
09:06	angerman	AWizzArd: will do the bisection method :D
09:06	angerman	naj. paredit doesn't want me to comment-out
09:07	chouser	#_
09:07	chouser	put that before an expression to make it "disappear"
09:08	dnolen	angerman: that should only happen on the last expr because of trailing parens, you just need to move those extra parens down
09:10	jcromartie	#_ is just weird
09:10	angerman	Thanks for all the help, there seems to be some serious issue on my side. I can (use '...) all of the libs with no problem. I'll better restart the repl
09:18	angerman	Sorry. I was editing the wrong file and thus never got any sensible difference
09:19	LauJensen	Does anybody know where _ato Alex Osbourne is camping these days?
09:33	defn	is there anything like nokogiri for clojure?
09:37	defn	chouser: i've been using #_ after reading your first few chapters
09:38	defn	chouser: great job on the book again -- it's exactly what I've been looking for
09:41	chouser	defn: we mentioned #_ in the first we chapters?
09:41	chouser	Maybe I should read that book.
09:42	esj	chouser: yeah, I learnt about #_ from your book
09:43	chouser	Anyway, glad you're enjoying it. If you ever get a chance to work on a project with _fogus, I'd highly recommend you do. :-)
09:43	_fogus	chouser: It's in the Style section ;-)
09:46	esj	a pat and run ?
09:46	chouser	drive-by back-pat
09:47	angerman	do i need any special plumbing to use future?
09:48	chouser	,(let [x (future 5)] @x)
09:48	clojurebot	5
09:48	cgrand	I've been mulling over the idea of using #_(namespaced/symbol yadi yada) as a way for tools (mainly IDEs) to add structured comments and markers. eg #_(tools.annotations/review "this is displayed as a post-it" :author "someone")
09:49	chouser	cgrand: huh!
09:49	chouser	I have a couple snippets of code with #_"comments like this"
09:49	defn	#_TODO
09:50	angerman	,(let [t (for [n (range 5)] (future n))] t)
09:50	clojurebot	(#<Object$IDeref$Future$2b9be1f9@13b2b95: 0> #<Object$IDeref$Future$2b9be1f9@1aa7618: 1> #<Object$IDeref$Future$2b9be1f9@2f4356: 2> #<Object$IDeref$Future$2b9be1f9@edd295: :pending> #<Object$IDeref$Future$2b9be1f9@19c4d4b: :pending>)
09:50	_fogus	I love using #_ in these ways which is why I added it to the comments section... but I think I should add a few extra words regarding using it alongs these lines.
09:51	defn	,(#_let #_[t (for [n (range 5)] (future n))] #_t)
09:51	clojurebot	()
09:51	defn	#_ is like a fork lift coming to take away your form
09:52	defn	maybe a snow plow
09:52	chouser	heh. nice. I like fork lift
09:52	qbg	It is a bottomless hole with a sign warning about it from the wrong side
09:52	_fogus	,(let [x (future (do (Thread/sleep 5000) (+ 41 1)))] @x) ; ... 5 seconds later
09:52	clojurebot	42
09:53	angerman	I must not mix future and loop?
09:53	defn	hi _fogus -- nice book
09:54	chouser	there's nothing wrong with that.
09:54	_fogus	defn: Thanks!
09:57	stuarthalloway	irc4019
10:01	stuarthalloway	anybody have a function that takes a lazy seq of input-streamable things and exposes it as a single inputstream?
10:02	chouser	how would you close such things?
10:03	stuarthalloway	each one closes as it is consumed
10:04	stuarthalloway	like contrib read-lines does
10:06	stuarthalloway	stop me now if I am crazy...
10:07	cgrand	something built on java.io.SequenceInputStream?
10:07	chouser	the way read-lines closes things makes me nervous
10:07	stuarthalloway	that's where I am headed
10:07	stuarthalloway	and it has the close semantics I am describing
10:08	stuarthalloway	for my use case I think SequenceInputStream will be find
10:08	stuarthalloway	the number of seqs to push together is small, but the individual seqs are larg
10:09	defn	clojurebot: skynet?
10:09	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
10:10	jkdufair	suggestions on why println on other threads does not print on stdout in clojure box on windows?
10:11	chouser	jkdufair: did you check your inferior-lisp buffer?
10:11	defn	print-readably can technically change between threads right?
10:12	defn	oops nevermind
10:13	chouser	what's a better name for a clojure-lint tool?
10:14	defn	hm
10:14	defn	flint
10:14	defn	it's functional
10:14	defn	functional lint
10:14	chouser	:-)
10:14	jkdufair	chouser: thank you!
10:14	chouser	not bad
10:15	angerman	Ok, now I'm getting a Rejected Execution Exception
10:15	defn	did you have a name in mind?
10:15	chouser	nope
10:15	ohpauleez	chouser: are you making a clojure lint?
10:15	chouser	ohpauleez: mulling it
10:15	angerman	,(def printer (agent nil :meta {:out out}))
10:15	clojurebot	DENIED
10:16	angerman	:D
10:16	ohpauleez	I've wanted one for awhile
10:16	datka	A clojure lint would be a great tool
10:16	chouser	ran into a bug in my code yesterday that took way to long to track down.
10:16	defn	chouser: glint would also be acceptable I think -- fewer google results to compete with also
10:16	defn	give out or reflect small flashes of light : her glasses were glinting in the firelight.
10:16	chouser	I'm not sure, but I think a lint-like tool would have helped (if I had thought to run it. :-/ )
10:17	datka	Clijnt
10:17	esj	ljnt
10:18	ohpauleez	CKB - Chouser\|Clojure Killin' Bugs
10:18	defn	Tijnt
10:18	somnium	Eastwood (clojure -> lint -> clint)
10:19	ohpauleez	this is looking like a Notorious BIG song, and less like tizzool :)
10:19	angerman	clojure 1.1.0 is stable right?
10:19	defn	aye
10:20	chouser	somnium: oh, nice.
10:20	angerman	what's the appropriate line for the project.clj?
10:20	somnium	chouser: in the spirit of Leiningen :) (kind of)
10:20	defn	angerman: [org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]
10:21	angerman	defn: hmm. I'm using that.
10:21	stuartsierra	1.1.0 is in maven central now
10:21	angerman	clojure-version -> {:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "alpha"}
10:21	angerman	does that match?
10:21	Raynes	(defmacro with-thread [& forms] `(.start (Thread. ~@forms))) Weeee, mah first macro.
10:22	stuartsierra	Raynes: that won't actually work
10:22	defn	angerman: try "1.1.0"
10:22	defn	bedtime
10:22	defn	night all
10:22	ohpauleez	night
10:22	angerman	defn: contrib as well?
10:22	stuartsierra	angerman: I'm working on numbered contrib releases, stay tuned
10:23	angerman	stuartsierra: thanks.
10:24	angerman	what's the supposed clojure-version string for 1.1.0?
10:26	Raynes	stuartsierra: That isn't surprising.
10:26	dnolen	how does one type hint types created by deftype ?
10:27	angerman	http://pastie.org/784871
10:27	angerman	hm
10:27	angerman	I dont' get why
10:27	Raynes	dnolen: #^Nameoftype seems to work.
10:31	spariev_	angerman: do you use emacs+slime ? if so, check the version of lein-swank, should be 1.1.0
10:32	angerman	spariev_: I found lein to load the old clojure. So I fixed that
10:32	angerman	Still I cannot use my printer agent
10:32	angerman	I'm sure it used to work
10:33	angerman	or is there an issue with my code? (http://pastie.org/784871)
10:35	angerman	I can't even execute "(pmap #(* % %) (range 0 10))"
10:36	spariev_	angerman: I was just about to suggest checking that )
10:36	spariev_	I had the similar exception trying to use pmap in slime, upgrading lein-swank in project.clj fixed my problem
10:37	spariev_	like, :dev-dependencies [[leiningen/lein-swank "1.1.0"]]
10:37	angerman	yep, that's exactly how I have it
10:38	chouser	angerman: looks like you may have already shut down your agent pool?
10:43	rhickey	aargh, this fn metadata ended up being a huge deal - now I've got to optimize compiled metadata storage, complete sidetrack
10:46	jcromartie	hmm, is (decorate ...) broken right now in compojure?
10:46	jcromartie	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'update-response' for dispatch value: class clojure.lang.Var
10:47	jcromartie	http://gist.github.com/281015
10:48	stuartsierra	Who runs the build server at tapestry.formos.com?
10:48	jcromartie	hitting any of my routes results in an the exception posted above
10:49	jcromartie	ah wait I think I get it
10:49	jcromartie	(decorate) is not meant to be used inline like that, right?
10:52	stuartsierra	~seen dysinger
10:52	clojurebot	dysinger was last seen quiting IRC, 242 minutes ago
10:53	rhickey	~seen devlinsf
10:53	clojurebot	no, I have not seen devlinsf
10:53	triddell	stuartsierra: probably Howard Lewis Ship, or hlship in irc I believe
10:53	triddell	stuartsierra: creator of tapestry and clojure fan
10:53	stuartsierra	~seen hlship
10:53	clojurebot	no, I have not seen hlship
10:54	angerman	hmm. seems like leiningen was interfering with the libs form the leiningen checkout
10:54	stuartsierra	triddell: thx
10:55	rhickey	sean's latest video, Abstraction Grafting, left me puzzled. All of the multimethods were variadic, but clearly only took one arg
11:08	stuartsierra	rhickey: just looking at the code, maybe he wants to allow variadic forms like (date 2010 1 19)
11:10	rhickey	stuartsierra: I don't understand
11:10	rhickey	won't that just convert 2010 into a time?
11:11	stuartsierra	as it's written now, yes
11:11	stuartsierra	I don't really understand either
11:13	AWizzArd	Why does Clojure not use githubs issue system? I am just curious, no criticism or suggestion to use it.
11:14	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: rhickey liked Assembla, that's all
11:15	AWizzArd	So, github is just the store for the central repositories, while assembla is for the project management, issue tracking and so on, while the official homepage is for documentation and collecting all basic information.
11:16	stuartsierra	pretty much
11:17	AWizzArd	ok
11:18	lypanov	hey headius
11:19	headius	lypanov: hello there
11:22	headius	lypanov: oh yeah? likin you some lisp?
11:24	lypanov	headius: it was either scala or clojure and rich did a neat devoxx talk, so clojure it is.
11:24	lypanov	:P
11:25	headius	well, there's certainly less syntax to learn
11:29	the-kenny	Anyone who can tell me the type of Urlencode which translates + to %252B ? (I think it's a java-thing)
11:31	_fogus	,(java.net.URLEncoder/encode "+")
11:31	clojurebot	"%2B"
11:31	the-kenny	Tried that, with every encoding mentioned in the doc
11:32	_fogus	,(java.net.URLEncoder/encode (java.net.URLEncoder/encode "+"))
11:33	clojurebot	"%252B"
11:33	the-kenny	Wow
11:33	chouser	oh dear
11:33	the-kenny	Looks like Google Wave is recursive
11:33	the-kenny	:D
11:33	_fogus	double secret encoding. ;)
11:34	lypanov	more security! we use ssl twice!
11:35	chouser	,(take 5 (iterate #(java.net.URLEncoder/encode %) "+"))
11:35	clojurebot	("+" "%2B" "%252B" "%25252B" "%2525252B")
11:35	chouser	infinite security
11:36	_fogus	Looks more like lazy security to me :p
11:36	the-kenny	lol
11:38	jcromartie	that's hilarious
11:38	jcromartie	p.s. you can include wacky things in a compojure route-param if you URL-encode it
11:38	jcromartie	like an email address
11:38	jcromartie	it's ugly as sin but it works
11:49	krumholt__	hi. how would i define a lazy-seq of all natural numbers with lazy-seq?
11:50	chouser	(defn incs [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (nums (inc i)))))
11:50	chouser	(incs 1)
11:51	Raynes	,(take 5 (lazy-seq (iterate inc 1)))
11:51	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
11:51	Raynes	Was what I came up with.
11:51	chouser	Raynes: lazy-seq is doing nothing useful there.
11:51	Raynes	I just noticed that.
11:51	chouser	But of course it's better to use iterate than what I did
11:51	Raynes	,(take 5 (iterate inc 1))
11:51	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
11:52	krumholt__	ok thanks
11:52	Raynes	That's what happens when you fail to read the doc string. :>
11:52	Raynes	(defn incs [i] (iterate inc i)) ; Anyways.
11:53	chouser	Raynes: right, that's much better.
12:00	lpetit	,(take 5 (fn incs [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (incs (inc i)))))
12:00	clojurebot	EOF while reading
12:02	lpetit	grr
12:02	lpetit	,(take 5 ((fn incs [i] (lazy-seq (cons i (incs (inc i))))) 1))
12:02	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
12:03	lpetit	or as devlinfs would say : (defn incs (partial iterate inc) :-)
12:03	lpetit	argh, must really go to sleep early today
12:04	lpetit	(def incs (partial iterate inc))
12:04	lpetit	go to bed
12:24	lypanov	LauJensen: man i've lost days on this arch thing :P
12:25	LauJensen	Its good that you get some practice :)
13:02	konr	Is there a way to use a regexp to match but then return just part of it? something like (function #"value=$[0-9]*$" "\1" "<tag value=30>") => 30 ?
13:02	stuartsierra	konr: re-groups
13:08	the-kenny	If you're parsing xml, I would recommend using a xml-parser :)
13:09	alexyk	I've tried upgrading clojure, contrib and congomongo, and leiningen, and got a mess. E.g., this: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn: method <init>()V not found (coerce.clj:1)
13:09	Raynes	I thought that said circumcision.
13:10	Raynes	I parsed XML for the first time yesterday! :D
13:10	alexyk	upon trying to (ns mongol (:use somnium.congomongo))
13:10	the-kenny	clojurebot: clojure.lang.RestFn
13:10	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
13:10	alexyk	what's that error? trying 1.1.0 for clojure and 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT for c.c.
13:11	Raynes	alexyk: Last time I got that, it was because my contrib wasn't built against my clojure.
13:11	alexyk	okok
13:11	the-kenny	alexyk: Are you building clojure and contrib from source?
13:11	alexyk	the-kenny: used to, but now want leiningen to get the right ones. Which c.c. does go along with clojure 1.1.0?
13:12	the-kenny	alexyk: Sorry, no idea. But if you're building contrib from source, try "ant clean" before this..
13:12	the-kenny	Wait, I can tell you the lein-entries for one of my projects
13:12	alexyk	ok
13:12	the-kenny	[[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT"]
13:12	the-kenny	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.0-SNAPSHOT"]]
13:13	the-kenny	sorry for bad line-breaks
13:13	alexyk	the-kenny: I used to use alpha, now it's 1.1.0
13:13	the-kenny	oh wait, let me try it
13:13	alexyk	there was a message about versioning of c.c. today on build.clojure.org, but I guess lein looks at clojars
13:15	Chousuke	hmm
13:16	Chousuke	is there any quick way to use leiningen to run examples for a project? :/
13:16	the-kenny	clojure 1.1.0 (without snapshot) and c.c "1.0-SNAPSHOT" works for me (at least I can start a repl within emacs)
13:16	the-kenny	Chousuke: Write a plugin!
13:16	the-kenny	Would be useful
13:17	noidi	how can I set the value of a field of a java object?
13:18	noidi	(.field object) works for reading, but the obvious attempt at writing -- (.field object new-value) didn't seem to work :)
13:19	Chousuke	(set! (.f o) someval) I think
13:20	noidi	Unable to resolve symbol: set! in this context
13:20	Chousuke	what.
13:20	Chousuke	(doc set!)
13:20	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:21	Chousuke	hm
13:21	noidi	ah, I just checked if the function exists by typing "set!" in the repl :)
13:21	Chousuke	right
13:21	noidi	should've known it's a special form
13:21	Chousuke	it's a special form
13:22	noidi	thanks, that works
13:22	Chousuke	the syntax is pretty common lispy (in a good way)
13:23	noidi	if the (.f o someval) syntax worked, one could initialize objects with doto
13:23	Chousuke	though Clojure has little need for generic-whatever-they-call-them because of the empasis on not mutating things. :)
13:23	Chousuke	emphasis*
13:23	noidi	yup, this is for Java interop
13:24	hyp3rvigi1ant1	is there a lein plugin for searching clojars and/or mvnrepository?
13:28	alexyk	after upgrading, I can't load congomongo anymore in lein repl, getting: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate somnium/congomongo__init.class or somnium/congomongo.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1). Yet It's a dependency in project.clj. What can be the issue?
13:29	alexyk	the jar has the structure src/clj/somnium/congomongo.clj
13:29	alexyk	how does clojure know to read that out of it?
13:29	hiredman	yeah, that doesn't look right
13:29	alexyk	it also has that very project.clj in the jar
13:30	hiredman	sounds like someone jar'ed up the source tree
13:30	hiredman	instead of running lein jar
13:31	alexyk	I get this after lein install or lein jar
13:31	alexyk	why would lein be screwed up here?
13:31	hiredman	so you are generating the har?
13:31	hiredman	jar
13:32	alexyk	I was just doing lein install
13:32	alexyk	and that produced the crooked jar
13:32	alexyk	lein jar does the same src/clj
13:32	hiredman	the jar should not have the project.clj in it
13:34	the-kenny	I thin lein jar does include the project.clj too
13:34	the-kenny	I've seen some jars with it
13:37	alexyk	ah what a mess. lein repl cannot launch a specified clojure version, jars are effed, pre-cooked one has a different version and exhibits RestFn. I'm itching for a Makefile.
13:37	alexyk	and this is only because I've upgraded lein.
13:38	alexyk	how can you launch a swank server with lein on a non-standard port?
13:38	the-kenny	alexyk:hm.. I don't think so
13:38	the-kenny	But it should be easy
13:39	the-kenny	File a feature request for it :)
13:39	alexyk	my filing technique is shouting "technomancyyyyy!" :)
13:40	the-kenny	heh
13:40	hiredman	always makes me think of chrestomanci
13:50	hyp3rvigi1ant1	alexyk: try: $ lein swank <port>
13:50	alexyk	ok
13:51	alexyk	yeah
13:52	alexyk	can I also specify host? It should bind to the externally visible IP
13:53	hyp3rvigi1ant	doesn't look like you can specify the host
13:54	hyp3rvigi1ant	here's the entire lein-swank plugin source code (one function): http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/lein-swank/src/leiningen/swank.clj
13:55	alexyk	wow
13:59	the-kenny	ahhh lein swank has the port argument already?
13:59	the-kenny	didn't know that
14:02	hyp3rvigi1ant	i didn't either, until i just now looked at the source, and then tried it, lol
14:09	stuartsierra	~url
14:09	clojurebot	something
14:09	stuartsierra	~paste url
14:11	lisppaste8	stuartsierra pasted "N-element tuples with deftype" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626
14:13	cemerick	stuartsierra: sweet. Should go show that to the #scala people. http://scala-tools.org/scaladocs/scala-library/2.7.1/Tuple9.scala.html#Some%2819%29
14:16	stuartsierra	Don't know much Scala, but that looks weird all right.
14:17	alexyk	cemerick: what did I miss which is better in clojure? :)
14:17	stuartsierra	I thought about allowing type hints too.
14:17	stuartsierra	Maybe another day.
14:17	stuartsierra	alexyk: "N-element tuples with deftype" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626
14:18	alexyk	nice
14:19	alexyk	cemerick: referring to 2.7.1 dates you :)
14:20	alexyk	and scala people have real types, for the record :)
14:22	cemerick	alexyk: the point is, there's one file/implementation for each tuple arity in scala
14:22	cemerick	the types have nothing to do with it
14:23	chouser	stuartsierra: excellent. now add primitive support
14:23	alexyk	cemerick: I think the static-ness of tuples makes it necessary, same in haskell and ocaml; you can't convert to lists either.
14:23	cemerick	alexyk: see, now you're making my argument for me ;-)
14:24	chouser	I think you could do something this in template-haskell
14:24	alexyk	I remember a horrible protracted sesion on #ocaml where I'd ask how to convert a tuple to a list, and an FP dogmatic would say, "you shouldn't do that" like 20 times.
14:24	cemerick	actually, wouldn't template haskell make that possible?
14:24	cemerick	chouser: damn! ;-)
14:25	alexyk	cemerick: my haskell is very rudimentary. But this is the dynamism vs static-ness.
14:25	cemerick	stuartsierra: interesting that you capitalized the key bindings.
14:25	Chousuke	hmm, I wonder if the template macro would look any better if done using clojure.template
14:25	chouser	alexyk: no this is macros vs. not.
14:25	cemerick	alexyk: ah, I don't think so. Some better metaprogramming facilities in the scala compiler would make this possible.
14:26	alexyk	the same dogmatic, #ocaml is generally very friendly and a magic way was provided using some special magic.
14:26	Chousuke	it doesn't look like it has much actual programmatic construction of code.
14:27	stuartsierra	No, there's not much code-construction.
14:27	stuartsierra	Most of the code is the same for tuples of any size.
14:28	stuartsierra	The annoying part was ~'quoting all the method names and arguments.
14:28	rhickey	stuartsierra: awesome!
14:28	stuartsierra	rhickey: thanks!
14:29	Chousuke	hm. I think the generated case impl prevents from using template
14:30	stuartsierra	So if I add type declarations, should it be per-element or one type for the whole tuple?
14:30	cemerick	per-element, I'd think
14:30	chouser	stuartsierra: I have the same construction, and for similar reasons, here: http://tinyurl.com/yb8bggv/finger_tree.clj#LID39
14:30	stuartsierra	cemerick: That was my first thought, but at that point you're basically writing deftype again.
14:31	chouser	a macro for making types, calls to make the types, and then a multi-body fn to construct the right kind.
14:31	chouser	if I add primitive support to the finger-tree digit types, all fields would have the same type.
14:32	chouser	my digits are rather less featureful than your tuples
14:33	stuartsierra	chouser: You aren't trying to support all the Vector interfaces.
14:33	rhickey	stuartsierra: for Clojure, tuples are just specific small vectors. Vectors have uniform element type (only Object right now, but another interesting case of data-structures-as macros is vectors of longs and doubles)
14:33	chouser	right, just Indexed. ISeq for destructuring.
14:34	rhickey	should use nth, not get for tuples/vectors
14:34	chouser	plus my tree-specific stuff: DoubleSeq, Measure, Splittable
14:34	stuartsierra	rhickey: it supports both nth and get, like vectors
14:35	stuartsierra	But the examples should probably use nth.
14:35	rhickey	right, but I hate to see example code with get
14:35	rhickey	heh
14:35	rhickey	get on vectors only when supporting associative things more generally
14:36	rhickey	I'd like to get rid of the need for those ~'s
14:37	stuartsierra	rhickey: Some of them are not necessary, but it was easier to leave them all in than figure out which ones.
14:37	rhickey	hrm
14:37	stuartsierra	I can't use auto-gensyms in some cases because I have nested backquote-unquotes
14:38	chouser	I didn't need ~' for any of the method names
14:38	rhickey	so, metadata on fns is ready for public consumption. One issue right now is macro arglist metadata includes the implicit &form and &env args
14:39	rhickey	clojure.core/for
14:39	rhickey	([&form &env seq-exprs body-expr])
14:39	rhickey	I need to strip them at some point in the chain
14:39	chouser	is the fn metadata copied to the var, or... ?
14:40	rhickey	chouser: right now var to fn
14:40	rhickey	big pain having it both places, but breaking change to take off var
14:40	chouser	yeah
14:40	rhickey	with-meta works on fns
14:42	chouser	oooh
14:43	cemerick	that's pretty exciting
14:44	cemerick	this includes arities? That's probably the #1 requirement out there.
14:44	rhickey	what are people doing with runtime arity?
14:46	rhickey	in any case, it's just the arglists metadata
14:47	chouser	for what people are doing with runtime arity?
14:47	rhickey	yes
14:48	rhickey	or runtime fn metadata in general
14:48	cemerick	I'm trying to remember what my use case was... :-/
14:48	chouser	one example someone descibed was a fn that wanted to except either a one- or two-arg predicate.
14:48	chouser	so var metadata was useless
14:49	rhickey	chouser: what's a one or two arg predicate?
14:49	rhickey	i.e. what do you pass?
14:49	cemerick	oh, right, I wanted to be able to decorate fns with arities and acceptable type tags so that candidate fns could be selected from a library/population given a set of args
14:49	chouser	He wanted both (foo (fn [a] ...)) and (foo (fn [a b] ...)) to work
14:50	cemerick	I ended up passing around [fn-info-map fn] vectors.
14:50	rhickey	chouser: I'd have to know the specifics to understand that - if you take one arg you get passed foo and if 2 foo and bar?
14:51	rhickey	cemerick: so full runtime dispatch
14:52	cemerick	rhickey: with lots of layers of indirection, backtracking as necessary, etc. But being able to describe the 'surface' of each fn was critical.
14:52	rhickey	hmm
14:53	cemerick	"signature" is too weak of a term for what we were doing, so we came to call the characterization of each function (a 'feature' in bayesian terms) its surface
14:54	rhickey	cemerick: but you didn't want to package the fn in a descriptive map?
14:54	chouser	rhickey: I think so, like (fn [a _] ...) would have worked, but is uglier.
14:55	cemerick	rhickey: that's roughly what we ended up doing, although we kept the description separate.
14:55	rhickey	chouser: I'm still unclear (and I know its not your thing you're describing) what one or two things would get passed
14:56	cemerick	rhickey: to be clear, the difference between what your doing and what you could do is very small.
14:57	cemerick	as long as we can decorate fns with metadata, I'm super-happy :-)
14:57	rhickey	note that fn equality is still identity based
14:58	cemerick	we put all sorts of stuff in our surface descriptions anyway, so leaving the :arities [1, 2, 5, [6 '&]] pair in there is fine for me.
14:58	cemerick	rhickey: is anything else really possible/
14:58	cemerick	?
14:59	rhickey	cemerick: well, it can't be behavior based, but could (but isn't) be based around same type plus equal closed-overs
14:59	cemerick	rhickey: sounds like a difficult path with little to gain from it
15:00	rhickey	two such fns would give same results given same args, and would isolate metadata
15:00	rhickey	cemerick: we'll see if people get breakage from fn != same fn + meta
15:01	cemerick	IMO, if you're comparing fn equality, you're already in rough shape
15:01	rhickey	there was never a reason to create another version of the same fn before
15:02	rhickey	meh, fns are values, can be map keys etc
15:03	cemerick	I've always thought about fns as being black boxes, quite unlike other values -- can't be serialized, can't be compared, no notion of equality, etc.
15:08	Chousuke	equality for functions is defined at least in a theoretical sense. Hmm
15:08	cemerick	Sure, in the f(x) -> y sense, but a real implementation of that is probably intractable.
15:10	hiredman	it's the halting problem
15:10	hiredman	isn't it?
15:10	cemerick	to brute-force it, yeah
15:11	rhickey	cemerick: I agree, in general, but a particular fn is = to itself in any system, yes?
15:11	cemerick	if you were to do something like aggressively normalize the source of two equivalent fns, you might get them to hash out equally, but I wouldn't bother :-)
15:11	rhickey	so, that fn with-meta should still be =, given what with-meta is supposed to do and metadata's relationship to equality
15:12	rhickey	at least one could argue that, and I expect someone will
15:12	cemerick	rhickey: Yeah, it probably should be, but meh
15:13	arohner	rhickey: one use of fn arity metadata is macros / fns that wrap it
15:13	arohner	at one point, I wanted to make a function that took another function, wrapped it, and def'd a new function with the same arity
15:14	arohner	and I wanted the old arity to stick it in the doc string of the new fn
15:14	cemerick	Hell, if I didn't know how fns were implemented under the covers, I might expect a meta-altered fn to drift in equality from the original fn anyway due to JIT recompilation.
15:15	rhickey	cemerick: really?
15:15	cemerick	rhickey: if I didn't know how fns were implemented, etc., but did know that code was being regenerated and replaced all the time.
15:17	cemerick	rhickey: if you're really worried about it, you could add an :original-fn slot to new meta on fns. :-P
15:17	alexyk	did str-utils2 remain in c.c. 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT?
15:17	ambient	btw, anyone else done any musical audio synthesis with clojure? or written a clojure-lib for realtime audio?
15:19	alexyk	I do (:require [clojure.contrib.str-utils2 :as s2]) and it gives me a class not found. Why suddenly?
15:20	hiredman	str-utils2 may have been renamed to str-utils, I forget
15:21	the-kenny	ohh and str-utils is dropped?
15:21	hiredman	possibly
15:22	hiredman	I saw some discussion of it, dunno if it actually happened
15:22	alexyk	darn, I can't find str-utils2/replace
15:23	alexyk	what can I replace replace with?!
15:23	alexyk	(replace string from to)
15:23	the-kenny	,(doc replace)
15:23	clojurebot	"([smap coll]); Given a map of replacement pairs and a vector/collection, returns a vector/seq with any elements = a key in smap replaced with the corresponding val in smap"
15:23	hiredman	,(.replace "foo" "foo" "bar")
15:23	clojurebot	"bar"
15:23	alexyk	in a string!
15:23	the-kenny	alexyk: you have to say .replace, not replace :)
15:23	the-kenny	There's a difference
15:23	hiredman	,(.replace "foo" "foo" "bar")
15:23	clojurebot	"bar"
15:24	alexyk	I used to use str-utils2 tp get rid of the . apparently... hmm
15:24	the-kenny	oh sorry, I didn't see one of your comments
15:24	chouser	str-utils2 replace is a multimethod
15:24	stuartsierra	as far as I know str-utils2 has NOT replaced str-utils
15:24	alexyk	chouser: which is what ?
15:25	alexyk	all I know that require c.c.str-utils2 used to work and now doesn't
15:25	alexyk	but, here Javaism will save the day
15:26	hiredman	ok
15:26	hiredman	then the problem is something else
15:26	alexyk	I've just spent inordinate amount of time to: upgrade leiningen and clojure; determine lein repl won't respect clojure versions; try swank and eff with firewalls, ports, and tunneling; replace lein repl with zsh: var=( lib/*/.jar ); print ${(j.:.)var}
15:27	stuartsierra	alexyk: what versions of Clojure/contrib are you using?
15:27	alexyk	stuartsierra: 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT on both
15:27	alexyk	as delivered by lein
15:27	alexyk	lein deps
15:27	stuartsierra	Oh, can't help with lein, but I expect that's the problem.
15:28	stuartsierra	They're pulling a bad build or something.
15:28	alexyk	stuartsierra: what's the latest correct coupling?
15:28	stuartsierra	I don't know, I don't use lein.
15:28	alexyk	and is it gettable via build.clojure.org maven repo? I'll use raw maven, forget lein
15:29	stuartsierra	yes, there are contrib release candidates on build.clojure.org now
15:29	stuartsierra	see my announcement on the clojure-dev list
15:29	alexyk	right, from the email this morning, correct? which clojure do they work with?
15:29	stuartsierra	alexyk: version numbers match; contrib 1.1 => clojure 1.1
15:30	rhickey	I'm not sure metadata is the right way to get arity from a fn. Arity is a property of the fn. Arglists meta is for humans
15:30	alexyk	is c.c. supposed to work with variations, e.g. both 1.1.0 and 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT?
15:30	Raynes	contrib 1.1 new snapshot seems to run with clojure 1.2 master snapshot.
15:30	Raynes	So, that's what I've been pulling down fro my stuff.
15:31	stuartsierra	If you're using snapshots, use matching branches. If you're using releases, use matching release numbers.
15:32	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #93626 "N-element tuples with type declarations" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626#1
15:33	alexyk	so is multimethod is a function with variants by arity?
15:34	hiredman	nope
15:34	hiredman	http://clojure.org/multimethods
15:34	rhickey	ok, fn metadata is up
15:35	stuartsierra	cemerick: tuples with primitives!
15:36	chouser	stuartsierra: beautiful
15:36	cemerick	nice
15:36	stuartsierra	thx
15:36	rhickey	stuartsierra: neato - now onto vectors of primitives? :)
15:36	cemerick	stuartsierra: you should add comparisons to arrays
15:37	rhickey	cemerick: that would be wrong
15:37	rhickey	mutable things should have identity-based equality
15:38	cemerick	rhickey: I'm just curious about the relative perf
15:38	rhickey	oh, make a comparison
15:38	Raynes	for* (late correction)
15:38	cemerick	right
15:38	Raynes	rhickey: Hah! We used words of the same length to end our sentences!
15:38	Raynes	You owe me a coke.
15:38	alexyk	hiredman: thanks, dreaded OO stuff.
15:39	alexyk	BenUncle uncleBen = new UncleBenUncle("Ben")
15:39	hiredman	it's polymorphism
15:39	rhickey	stuartsierra: should switch get to nth
15:39	hiredman	not OO
15:39	stuartsierra	rhickey I thought I did
15:40	stuartsierra	oh, only in the tests
15:40	alexyk	right, just mention of OO was a flashback. I read through CL CLOS once and forgot it, will see about defmulti
15:42	alexyk	my repl is finally back, lesson: don't entrust your repl to tools
15:42	alexyk	hand-made vintage repl is in your full control
15:44	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #93626 "typed tuple comparison with arrays" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626#2
15:44	stuartsierra	tuple performance does not quite match arrays, but gets very close
15:44	cemerick	that's pretty remarkable
15:45	cemerick	If the same margin applies between aset and (assoc tuple n blah), then whoa
15:45	rhickey	stuartsierra: you've got to tweak valAt
15:46	stuartsierra	rhickey: how so?
15:46	rhickey	calling interleave?
15:46	chouser	that's at compile time
15:46	rhickey	ah
15:47	stuartsierra	It generates a case expression like (case n 0 e0, 1 e1, 2 e2, ...)
15:47	rhickey	well, then you'll need case help - what are the times with condp
15:48	stuartsierra	Last week with 2-tuples, it was slightly faster with condp
15:48	rhickey	right, and will be until case gets an all-integers specialization
15:48	Raynes	Haha. People actually do the too-hot tutorial stuff. :>
15:48	rhickey	for small n condp still might be faster
15:49	stuartsierra	That's what I thought. But it was easier to write with case.
15:49	rhickey	right, but this one fn is at the bottom of everything, make as fast as possible
15:49	stuartsierra	true
15:49	stuartsierra	I'll try it
15:50	rhickey	now that I'm out of fn metadata nightmare I can look at case
15:50	rhickey	(meta map)
15:50	rhickey	,(meta map)
15:50	clojurebot	nil
15:50	rhickey	hrm
15:50	chouser	clojurebot gets new versions of clojure fairly rarely
15:51	chouser	he's on some pre-HEAD version of the "new" branch right now I think.
15:51	hiredman	no
15:51	hiredman	some lein repl version
15:51	chouser	oh
15:51	hiredman	hmmm
15:51	hiredman	unfortunate sideeffect of leinizing
15:52	rhickey	cemerick: tuples should end up faster than arrays
15:52	hiredman	mmmm
15:53	hiredman	now we just need a means of stack allocating
15:53	cemerick	rhickey: object creation is really that fast?
15:54	rhickey	yes, and an array is an object, and array access is bounds checked
15:55	chouser	heh. meta fns just broke what I'm doing.
15:55	arohner	,(clojure-version)
15:55	clojurebot	"1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
15:55	chouser	I should have learned by now not to build code on top of Compiler internals...
15:55	rhickey	chouser: what broke?
15:56	stuartsierra	rhickey: plain cond is very slightly faster, still not quite the equal of arrays
15:57	chouser	no multimethod for dispatch value Compiler$MetaExpr
15:57	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #93626 "Ever so slightly faster with cond" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626#3
16:00	stuartsierra	But array performance is more consistent; tuples are harder to benchmark.
16:00	rhickey	chouser: how are you getting that?
16:01	chouser	running my own multimethod recursively on the results of Compiler/analyze
16:01	chouser	rhickey: don't worry about it. It's all my own thing.
16:03	technomancy	lein repl is wonky with clojure versions
16:04	technomancy	I should have it print out a warning when it launches
16:04	technomancy	or just fix it, I guess
16:08	wlr	chouser: re your lint name q, howze 'bout "clintj" pronounced "clinch". (Sorry, couldn't resist :)
16:11	rhickey	urk - stuart's code is using a macro as a fn
16:12	chouser	how?
16:12	clojurebot	with style and grace
16:12	kotarak	,#'and
16:12	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/and
16:12	kotarak	,@#'and
16:12	rhickey	2-arg version calls 3 arg version as if it was a fn
16:12	clojurebot	#<core$and__4467 clojure.core$and__4467@395626>
16:13	chouser	ohhhh... :-/
16:13	wilig	technomancy: Did the read-line fix work for ya?
16:13	rhickey	that will now fail, will be a common error I thimk
16:15	Hali_303	what are some mature frameworks for persistence?
16:15	technomancy	wilig: yeah, it looks great
16:15	Hali_303	(I mean high level, not SQL interface)
16:16	wilig	technomancy: Oh good, I'm glad it worked outside of my little environment.
16:16	technomancy	still doesn't let you call clojure.main/repl from slime-repl, but it's a good move forward
16:18	wilig	technomancy: what should that do?
16:20	cemerick	it looks like one cannot use var references in clojure.test/are ...
16:21	cemerick	bah, nevermind
16:22	technomancy	wilig: (require 'clojure.main) (clojure.main/repl) ;; <= should allow the new repl to take over the slime-repl buffer until it exits
16:22	wilig	ah
16:22	technomancy	wilig: I think it comes down to the simple fact that (read) from slime-repl doesn't work
16:23	technomancy	since it needs a pushback reader
16:23	technomancy	that might not actually be too tricky to fix now that I think about it
16:24	technomancy	maybe just proxying clojure.lang.PushbackReader instead of java.io.BufferedReader would work
16:24	wilig	hmm, I agree. changing the proxy to a pushback reader shouldn't be too hard. if I understanding the problem correctly.
16:24	wilig	exactly
16:26	hiredman	clojure's is a linenumberingpushbackreader
16:26	hiredman	pushbackreader is in java.io
16:27	technomancy	oh right
16:34	wilig	technomancy: you gonna have a go, or should I crack it back open?
16:35	alexyk	is there any tracing for the dreaded java.lang.NullPointerException (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)?
16:36	technomancy	wilig: I'll have a go possibly tonight, but if you beat me to it I'd be happy. =)
16:36	alexyk	technomancy: please please add host to lein swank! I need to bind to outfacing IP
16:37	tcrayford	al3xyk can't you just use an ssh tunnel?
16:38	chouser	could make a lein plugin for it even
16:38	cemerick	alexyk: ctrl-J prints the stack trace from the last exception in enclojure shrug
16:39	alexyk	tcrayford: my tunneling is effed up with administrative error or some such
16:39	hiredman	…
16:39	alexyk	cemerick: plain command line repl, how about that?
16:39	chouser	(.printStackTrace *e)
16:39	cemerick	alexyk: (.printStackTrace *e)
16:40	chouser	:-)
16:40	hyp3rvigi1ant	alexyk: when i was working on those patches, i noticed that swank seems to bind to 0.0.0.0 by default, which I think should allow connections from anywhere on any interface (though I haven't made sure of that yet)...i continued writing the patch to give users the option to specify the host in case they don't want it to be accessible on certain ips/interfaces
16:40	cemerick	chouser: that's 3/3, all less than a second before me! Well done. :-P
16:40	chouser	heh
16:40	chouser	I feel so useful
16:41	cemerick	now if I could just get my wife to be as clairvoyant ;-)
16:41	technomancy	alexyk: uh... I'll get to it eventually
16:41	technomancy	if you really want it soon you could implement it yourself. =)
16:41	alexyk	chouser: thx! fast and correct every time!
16:41	chouser	now if I could just be as clairvoyant with my wife ;-)
16:42	alexyk	so long as the wives are not clairvoyant...
16:42	cemerick	alexyk: amen to that
16:43	alexyk	now I appreciate a bit why Scala etc. run away from nulls as heck, and go to such lengths with Option types. Null is nasty.
16:43	cemerick	are there any publicly-known women clojure programmers out there?
16:43	alexyk	You spend a few days to craft a lovely functional program, and get a null.
16:43	alexyk	cemerick: Clair Voyant is as close to the scent of a woman as you get here.
16:43	hiredman	~women
16:43	clojurebot	women are just jealous, since lisp has nice curves. -- Chousuke
16:44	cemerick	Yeah. Unfortunate.
16:44	alexyk	think of Lady Ada Lovelace and her lovely language Ada 2005
16:44	rhickey	there you go
16:45	wilig	technomancy: Well the simple change didn't work. No error returned, just nil.
16:45	alexyk	rhickey: I really love Clojure, but I come from OCaml where Option types make it go away, I', all soft and bamm! A null per 200 lines of dense clojure. What to do?
16:45	cemerick	if we could get a -?>> to go with -?>, I'd really be all set
16:45	alexyk	what's -?> ; ?
16:46	cemerick	-?> is like ->, but short-circuits on nulls, returning null
16:46	cemerick	it's in clojure.contrib.core
16:46	alexyk	see? you said "null". :)
16:46	hiredman	alexyk: stop producing nils
16:46	cemerick	,#'clojure.contrib.core/-?>
16:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib.core/-?> in this context
16:47	alexyk	hiredman: now that's managerial! (getting back to debugging nulls)
16:47	hiredman	alexyk: how is that managerial?
16:47	cemerick	hiredman: they're a fact of life given seq, but I'm still not clear on what the problem is
16:47	alexyk	hiredman: a good phrase to tell an underproducing programmer
16:47	hiredman	alexyk: well, start producing more
16:48	alexyk	:)
16:48	alexyk	a null ate my program
16:48	Raynes	A null killed my father and raped my mother.
16:48	stuartsierra	You are likely to be eaten by a null.
16:49	rhickey	stuartsierra: you were calling a macro as a fn in your def-tuple-type (2 arg called 3 arg) - that's a no-no and new master breaks it
16:50	rhickey	should be ([NAME N] `(def-tuple-type ~NAME ~N 'java.lang.Object))
16:50	hiredman	nil is a legitimate value, clojure is a dynamic language
16:50	hiredman	what is the problem?
16:50	stuartsierra	rhickey: yes, I see, will fix
16:50	chouser	it's kinda crazy that it worked at all. depends on the fact that def-tuple-type isn't marked as a macro yet when that line is compiled?
16:51	rhickey	if there was a man who promised to keep you free from headaches, but only by continuously kicking you in the shin, would you want him to?
16:51	rhickey	chouser: yeah
16:52	alexyk	rhickey: on a day with a null, I might welcome it; but generally no. The question is, how can null be trapped easily and isolated.
16:52	hiredman	(when x (do stuff to x))
16:52	rhickey	alexyk: you could try preconditions
16:52	lisppaste8	stuartsierra annotated #93626 "fixed recursive macro self-call" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626#4
16:53	alexyk	rhickey: yep, thought of that. One kinda hopes stuff will work by itself :)
16:53	Raynes	,(+ nil nil)
16:53	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
16:53	rhickey	stuartsierra: also, your array test is not fair as it doesn't set the array elements to 3 values as does the tuple
16:53	alexyk	Raynes: scary!
16:53	Raynes	Oh noes! I has a null problems!
16:53	stuartsierra	rhickey: true
16:54	alexyk	well, now go wrap each operand in an (or..)
16:54	alexyk	I wonder if a macro can be written to magicaly wrap everything in a "must-be-not-null" check
16:54	alexyk	then it will cry out with specifics
16:55	Raynes	I had a NullPointerException yesterday. It was really null.
16:55	rhickey	stuartsierra: when you do that, 3-tuples of doubles beat arrays of doubles, but arrays of objects beat all
16:55	stuartsierra	rhickey: Calling aset-double kills performance.
16:55	rhickey	aset-double is not fast, aset is, with hints, hang on a sec
16:56	alexyk	,(inc nil)
16:56	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
16:56	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #93626 "tuples vs arrays" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93626#5
16:56	hiredman	alexyk: what's the problem?
16:57	Chousuke	,(inc "foo") makes as much sense as (inc nil)
16:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
16:57	Chousuke	and it's just as likely
16:57	alexyk	hiredman: nothin', just besting Raynes' shortest null-inducement
16:57	rhickey	stuartsierra: ^^that code is fast for arrays, but double array still requires unboxing
16:57	stuartsierra	ok
16:58	stuartsierra	A while ago I thought about implementing tuples as Object arrays.
16:59	Chousuke	As far as I can tell, even if you had types that can't be null, you could still pass nil to functions because Clojure is dynamic. And if you had no nil, you'd instead have n different objects doing what nil does, each making as much sense as nil to functions that don't expect them.
17:01	alexyk	,(let [m {:a 1} {a :a} m] a)
17:01	clojurebot	1
17:02	alexyk	,(let [m {:a 1} {:keys [a]} m] a)
17:02	clojurebot	1
17:02	alexyk	does the latter mean that :keys prepends : to its list?
17:02	alexyk	meaning varname a maps to key :a?
17:02	stuartsierra	yes
17:02	hiredman	gah
17:03	hiredman	"prepending :" is some kind of text operation on characters
17:03	hiredman	it certianly does not do that
17:03	alexyk	I know, I know. I mean naming convention here
17:03	alexyk	well somewhere it maps a to :a
17:03	alexyk	it prepends : in the eyes of the higher powers
17:03	hiredman	no
17:04	hiredman	a is a symbol and :a is a keyword, :a is not a a with a : prepended
17:04	chouser	heh
17:05	alexyk	I meant names
17:05	alexyk	apaprently a naming mapping is implied
17:05	chouser	yes, a name mapping is implied
17:05	alexyk	and names are text thingies!
17:05	chouser	there are :syms and :strs as well
17:06	hiredman	names are not text thingies
17:06	chouser	(name 'symbol)
17:07	chouser	,(name 'symbol)
17:07	clojurebot	"symbol"
17:07	alexyk	hiredman: then what are they?
17:07	hiredman	alexyk: they are an abstract concept
17:07	alexyk	hiredman: which can be expressed as text thingies :)
17:07	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#.CE.B1-conversion
17:08	alexyk	an electronic computer is a machine for manipulating bytes, i.e. text
17:08	Chousuke	the :keys [a] means the map has a keyword as a key that has the same name as the symbol 'a :)
17:08	hiredman	then please write asm
17:09	Chousuke	,(= (name :a) (name 'a))
17:09	clojurebot	true
17:09	Chousuke	same name, very different entities.
17:09	alexyk	,(type (name 'a))
17:09	clojurebot	java.lang.String
17:09	alexyk	case closed
17:09	hiredman	no
17:09	tcrayford	that's just because name returns a string
17:09	tcrayford	,(type 'a)
17:09	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
17:10	tcrayford	,(type :foo)
17:10	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
17:10	hiredman	the name function is not the same thing as a name
17:10	Chousuke	I think you're arguing useless semantics here though.
17:11	hiredman	Chousuke: since alexyk is always in here asking for help and complaing about NPE's I think a revision of his mental model via an education in semantics might be useful
17:11	Raynes	alexyk: coolest npe http://gist.github.com/281362
17:11	alexyk	ok sorry, I was bitten by a null. I'm not asking for help per se, I love to know the right idioms. :) Now I have to track the null.
17:12	Chousuke	Well, there's certainly no prepending of : or anything,
17:12	hiredman	Chousuke: exactly
17:12	Chousuke	alexyk: you said a naming mapping is implied. I think it's rather explicit, as the syntax exists just for that.
17:12	alexyk	ok
17:13	Chousuke	but really, be wary of treating clojure code as text. it's just misleading and someone might feel the need to correct you :)
17:14	hiredman	<--
17:14	Chousuke	it has a textual representation yes, but it's still important to treat it as data.
17:15	chouser	Clojure programs have non-textual in-memory representations, but sometimes it's important to treat them as text.
17:15	hiredman	to program in language X it is important to have a good mental model of X
17:16	Hali_303	does anyone use clj-record or clojureql in production? which is better choice for a green field project?
17:17	Chousuke	the code=data thing kind of changes the terminology a lot though
17:18	hiredman	it's even a code=date thing, it is confusing a concrete manipulation with semantic intent
17:18	hiredman	it's not even
17:19	Chousuke	instead of "let" having syntax consisting of an open bracket and a list of bindings, a closing bracket and a body of expressions, it instead "takes a vector of binding forms" and an arbitrary number of expressions.
17:19	hiredman	if I have a function F that produces :a when applied to 'a the intended meaning is a mapping of symbols to keywords
17:20	hiredman	confusing that a possible concrete method for creating that mapping is bad
17:20	hiredman	that with
17:20	Chousuke	yeah. though I think this was blown out of proportion a bit :P
17:21	hiredman	is F a mapping between values or a procedure for pretending :
17:21	chouser	the name of a symbol is a string
17:21	hiredman	prepending
17:28	alexyk	I have two files: a big one with (ns ...) on top, and a fun I factored out and killed null in. I pasted the big file into repl, then was fixing the factored-out fun and did (load-file "it.clj") until it works. Now If instead of pasting I do (load-file :bigfile.clj") the ns doesn't change and small fun cannot find stuff from it. Pasting just the ns header works. How can I change the bigfile so its ns header is injected into repl as if pasted?
17:30	tcrayford	use :reload
17:30	tcrayford	maybe?
17:30	qbg	When you load the file, the namespace will be updated, but your ns won't change
17:30	qbg	Why not just switch to that namespace?
17:31	tcrayford	via (in-ns 'new-ns)
17:31	alexyk	qbg: right... How do I switch to it from repl?
17:31	alexyk	ah ok
17:31	qbg	(in-ns 'your-namespace)
17:31	alexyk	lovely
17:31	alexyk	and beautifully, on a defn from a file, a line is printed where null occurs. That solves the Clojure Null problem. :)
17:35	rikthevik	let's say i have a map (structure) and i do a map (function) on it. what's the best way to assemble that list of vectors back into a map (structure)?
17:35	hiredman	(into {} ...)
17:35	hiredman	(apply conj {} ...)
17:37	rikthevik	ah, beautiful. i usually have a good idea of what i want to do, but i have trouble figuring out the exact function i need. thank you
17:40	ts00000	anyone clueful with compojure that can show me how a javascript should be declared in (html)?
17:42	arohner	ts00000: you just make your string an attribute in a script element
17:42	arohner	ts00000: you can also use scriptjure, but that compiles down to a string, and you use it in the same place
17:42	ts00000	I tried [ :script "test.js" ] but I don't think that does the right thing
17:43	hiredman	ts00000: um
17:43	arohner	if you want to include a js file, you can use the include-js function provided by compojure
17:43	hiredman	ts00000: how do you include javascript in html? (hint: it is an exact map to compojure's [:tag] style)
17:43	tcrayford	aye
17:44	ts00000	hiredman: what I want is to do a script src
17:44	ts00000	but I think arohner might have it
17:45	arohner	which would be [:script {:type "text/javascript" :src "foo.js"}]
17:45	arohner	if you wanted to do it "by hand"
17:45	ts00000	thanks arohner, I was trying something wrong and forgot about the curlies
17:45	ts00000	still learning syntax
17:46	ts00000	programming clojure goes through it so fast it's hard to keep track of :-)
17:47	ts00000	so I can just use include-js inside the html/
17:47	ts00000	?
17:48	tcrayford	(html (include-js "foo.js")) works fine
17:48	ts00000	finally just found a good example
17:48	ts00000	thanks folks
17:48	tcrayford	user=> (html (include-js "foo"))
17:48	tcrayford	"<script src=\"foo\" type=\"text/javascript\"></script>"
17:48	tcrayford
17:49	ts00000	http://www.pgcon.org/2009/schedule/attachments/96_visualizing-postgres-2009-05-21.pdf has way more examples than i'd seen so far
18:02	the-kenny	I love the xkcd comic in the pdf
18:02	tcrayford	is there an easy way to get clojure regex to match newlines?
18:03	hiredman	,(re-find #"\n" "\n")
18:03	clojurebot	"\n"
18:03	tcrayford	say I have a string "foo\nbar", and I want something like #"^foo.*" to match it
18:03	the-kenny	tcrayford: Take a look at RegexPattern javadocs
18:03	hiredman	oh
18:03	hiredman	you have to use a flag
18:03	hiredman	?s maybe?
18:03	tcrayford	does that mean dropping down to java?
18:03	hiredman	no
18:03	tcrayford	or just at the start of the pattern
18:04	hiredman	,(re-find #"(?s)*" "\n")
18:04	clojurebot	Dangling meta character '' near index 4 (?s) ^
18:04	hiredman	,(re-find #"(?s).*" "\n")
18:04	clojurebot	"\n"
18:04	ts00000	?s is the flag
18:04	ts00000	like
18:04	hiredman	,(re-find #"(?s)foo.*" "foo\nbar")
18:04	clojurebot	"foo\nbar"
18:04	ts00000	"(?s).+?(?:\n\n\|$)"
18:04	hiredman	,(re-find #"(?s)foo." "foo\nbar")
18:04	clojurebot	"foo\n"
18:04	hiredman	,(re-find #"(?si)foo." "FOO\nbar")
18:04	clojurebot	"FOO\n"
18:11	dabd	methods are supposed to be documented with metadata #^{:doc "...." ?
18:12	dabd	it would be nice if the defmethod macro also supported documentation strings
18:14	hiredman	dabd: where do you put the docs?
18:14	tcrayford	cheers for that hiredman, problem solved
18:14	jcromartie	what are the implications of putting lots of jars on your classpath?
18:14	dabd	hiredman: well I put the multimethod doc string in defmulti
18:14	jcromartie	does it really matter if you don't use the libs/classes?
18:14	dabd	hiredman: but it would be nice to be able to document also the methods
18:15	arohner	jcromartie: not really
18:15	ts00000	how can you get find-doc and repl-utils/source to return private methods?
18:15	ts00000	or can you?
18:15	hiredman	dabd: the docstring is not just suspended in space, it is hung on the var
18:15	hiredman	where would you have it for defmethods?
18:15	hiredman	how would you look it up?
18:15	jcromartie	how about (doc multimethod type)
18:16	hiredman	jcromartie: that does not solve the "were to put it problem"
18:16	tcrayford	(defmacro is=
18:16	tcrayford	([expr val] `(is= ~expr ~val ""))
18:16	tcrayford	([expr val msg] `(is (= ~expr ~val))))
18:16	dabd	hiredman: I see
18:16	tcrayford	wondering if its worth adding that to clojure.test
18:16	dabd	hiredman: is there any way to add documentation specific to a method?
18:17	hiredman	dabd: if the behaviour of the multimethod is so out of line with the documentation from the defmulti you might consider making it a seperate function
18:18	hiredman	you can always make comments
18:18	jcromartie	I think if you have to document each defmulti you should probably break it up.
18:19	jcromartie	err
18:19	jcromartie	defmethod
18:19	dabd	hiredman: the specific case is a multimethod that performs queries either in SPARL or SQL so the result set is different in each case and I wanted to document that. However code comments are only useful for developers and they cannot be inspected with the REPL or programmatically
18:19	jcromartie	I'd just document the two result sets in the defmulti
18:20	jcromartie	but if your return values are different between two defmethods for the same defmulti then it doesn't really seem like a good use for multimethods
18:20	jcromartie	or at least if you can't use the return value in the same way
18:21	dabd	jcromartie: the return value is a seq over the result set. So I use it as a sequence abstraction
18:39	hiredman	clojurebot: git 277f0235c1387ddd6247a72857597814a3e10bc3
18:39	clojurebot	add &form and &env implicit args to macros
18:39	hiredman	neat
18:40	jcromartie	are there any problems using symlinks to jars?
18:41	wilig	anyone know how to call a super method from a proxy?
18:41	jcromartie	like if I have a directory full of symlinks to the jars I want to use, and I specify them in the classpath with something like "$HOME/.clj/jars/*" I can't seem to use or require any of the libs
18:43	jcromartie	oh, hmm
18:46	hiredman	wilig: proxy-super
18:46	jcromartie	maybe I should be using hard links
18:47	hiredman	jcromartie: * when expanded by the shell does not work in the classpath
18:47	jcromartie	I know
18:47	jcromartie	I think the problem is with my links
18:47	jcromartie	they carry the exact path source file path that I specified... not an absolute path to the source file
18:47	hiredman	jcromartie: it also only works for java 6+
18:47	jcromartie	so they are only relative
18:48	jcromartie	yah I'm on 6
18:48	jcromartie	it works with hard links or real jras
18:48	jcromartie	jars
18:48	jcromartie	but my symlinks have the wrong source file
18:48	hiredman	well, I've never had problems with symlinks
18:48	jcromartie	if I do ln -s ./foo/bar bat
18:48	jcromartie	then bat is a symlink to exactly ./foo/bar
18:49	jcromartie	meaning it will still be ./foo/bar wherever I access it from
18:49	jcromartie	so the full path must be specified
18:55	jcromartie	I guess hard links are probably better for this than symlinks.
18:55	krumholt_	i want to traverse and find the first element to fullfill some condition how would i do that?
18:55	jcromartie	I dunno... you all probably just copy the freaking jars :)
18:56	jcromartie	krumholt_: first, filter
18:56	jcromartie	or some
18:56	krumholt_	jcromartie, ah ofcourse thanks
18:57	jcromartie	,(some even? [1 3 5 6 7])
18:57	clojurebot	true
18:57	hiredman	,((comp first filter) even? [1 3 5 6 7])
18:57	clojurebot	6
18:57	jcromartie	,(first (filter even? [1 3 5 6]))
18:57	clojurebot	6
18:57	jcromartie	ooh, fancy with the comp
18:58	jcromartie	but you made it bigger :)
19:05	jcromartie	some is fun for maps and sets
19:05	jcromartie	,(some {:foo 1 :bar 2} [:bat :baz :foo])
19:05	clojurebot	1
19:17	zmyrgel	how can I make hash map out of two lists?
19:18	zmyrgel	I'm trying to make hash map of hex chars, like :11 points to b
19:18	Chousuke	zipmap might help
19:18	Chousuke	map keys don't have to be keywords either
19:19	zmyrgel	zipmap was just the thing
19:21	zmyrgel	I'm trying to learn clojure by converting one of my java projects to it
19:24	zmyrgel	this would be easier if I hadn't forgotten my copy of halloway's book at my parents house
19:24	Chousuke	zmyrgel: A good idea, but it's also a double-edged sword. You may end up writing Java in Clojure if you're not careful :)
19:24	zmyrgel	true that
19:25	zmyrgel	but I guess it takes time to learn the 'flow' of different language
19:25	Chousuke	though I suppose that's a good experience as well.
19:25	Chousuke	yeah
19:25	Chousuke	especially since Clojure outright abandons most concepts familiar to Java programmers :P
19:26	zmyrgel	true that
19:27	Raynes	Bleh. More code to change.
19:27	zmyrgel	I could do my bachelor's thesis about clojure if I can't ooze myself into any real job
19:27	Raynes	I was doing (apply hash-map (interleave blah blah)). :\|
19:27	Chousuke	~def zipmap
19:28	Chousuke	hmm
19:28	Chousuke	off sync it seems
19:52	janjan	Is there a max-seq or something like that? so I can do (max-seq [1 2 3]) as (max [1 2 3]) doesn't work
19:53	jcromartie	do you just want the maximum value in a seq?
19:53	janjan	,(max [1 2 3])
19:53	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
19:53	janjan	jup
19:53	jcromartie	,(apply max [1 2 3])
19:53	clojurebot	3
19:53	jcromartie	,(apply max (range 1 20))
19:53	clojurebot	19
19:54	janjan	hmm, guess I'm still thinking too much in Python
19:54	janjan	thx
19:54	jcromartie	there are other ways that are perhaps more traditional
19:55	jcromartie	,(reduce max [3 4 2 6 7 3])
19:55	clojurebot	7
19:55	janjan	I'd say the apply one is more traditional than using reduce :)
19:56	jcromartie	really? I see reduce more than apply
19:56	jcromartie	apply seems to be more of a lisp thing
19:56	janjan	yea, but reducing with max is not something I'd find intuitive
19:56	jcromartie	I suppose not
19:57	jcromartie	but reduce is usually in the "intro to FP" curriculum if you know what I mean
19:58	janjan	I know it, but i'm used to use it with the traditional operators like + and *, but it works equally well with max I guess
19:59	janjan	though I usually program Python, and there you mostly don't use any of apply, reduce, map, etc.
20:02	jcromartie	it works great with all sorts of wacky things in clojure
20:03	jcromartie	you could use a map or set as a predicate for reduce
20:03	jcromartie	or any number of things
20:03	jcromartie	anything callable
20:03	konr`	I wish I could use github's search engine to find interesting examples
20:04	seths	,(map (partial nth (seq "abc")) [0 2])
20:04	clojurebot	(\a \c)
20:04	konr`	but "(apply " returns all sorts of things
20:04	konr`	including "this applies to ..."
20:09	jcromartie	Google code search... now if only it had some interesting Clojure code :P
20:12	konr`	It would be cool to be able to search for code using queries like "(reduce $FN ...) where $FN != +"
20:17	janjan	Funny, in another (older) part of my code I had had the same problem of 'how do I apply this func to that seq', the func being + in that case. I also didn't think of 'apply', but I did come up with reduce. But with the max case that didn't come up in my mind.
20:23	hiredman	I do believe max and + both internally use reduce for more than two args
20:23	rhickey_	waddya think - is Clojure the borg? http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg
20:25	jcromartie	aw man, that is a riot
20:25	jcromartie	I love Forth vs Factor
20:25	jcromartie	they're all brilliant
20:25	konr`	hahahaha
20:27	jcromartie	Clojure is Captain Picard as a Borg, that's gotta count for something
20:28	hiredman	I think it is import to keep in mind that is supposed to represent the view of a common lisp programmer
20:28	janjan	Apparently CLers are afraid of clojure 8-]
20:30	hiredman	I think it's http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 in in picture form
20:31	rhickey_	hiredman: I thought that was the "zombie-reanimated corpse of a dream" guy
20:31	hiredman	yeah
20:31	hiredman	well, what else is a borg?
20:31	hiredman	I guess you get the groovy head gear
20:31	rhickey_	it's very funny in any case
20:38	Raynes	The PHP and Haskell ones are hilarious.
20:45	wilig	hiredman: Thanks exactly what I was looking for.
20:46	Raynes	"You’re looking at it wrong. It’s not meant to be a serious Lisp. It’s only cosmetically descended from McCarthy’s original idea. It’s an attempt to terraform the wasteland of the JVM. It fails, of course, but it does make it at least somewhat less likely that geysers of molten arsenic will pour through your floor at 1AM." Eh.
20:48	hiredman	kind of poetic
20:51	hiredman	the serious (common) lisp almost killed lisp completely
20:53	jcromartie	Raynes: is that from that Loper OS guy?
20:53	Raynes	jcromartie: No.
20:53	Raynes	It was from a guy who was trying to defend Clojure, and ended up doing so with misinformation.
20:55	jcromartie	hah
21:15	chouser	I look forward to seeing how such arguments get adjusted once clojure starts maturing on other VMs.
21:20	jcromartie	Clojure on LLVM will be a great day.
21:20	jcromartie	But this guy has me thinking: how about building a "clojure machine?"
21:20	jcromartie	"clojure-all-the-way-down"
21:21	jcromartie	with the major caveat that Java is OK
21:21	jcromartie	and the OS that Java runs on
21:22	jcromartie	let's say Linux and a JVM and then everything else implemented in clojure
21:22	jcromartie	it's most just UI at that point
21:23	jcromartie	but you could start replacing the lower parts of an operating system with clojure code
21:23	hiredman	there are jvms that run without an os
21:23	jcromartie	well there we go
21:23	hiredman	~google maxine java
21:23	clojurebot	First, out of 16000 results is:
21:23	clojurebot	Maxine VM
21:23	clojurebot	https://maxine.dev.java.net/
21:23	jcromartie	You could eventually build something like Genera but for Clojure.
21:23	hiredman	~google guest os java
21:23	clojurebot	First, out of 493000 results is:
21:23	clojurebot	Virtualbox guest OS networking on WinXP host : Tao's Sun Blog
21:23	clojurebot	http://blogs.sun.com/tao/entry/virtualbox_guest_os_networking_on
21:23	hiredman	bah
21:24	jcromartie	I mean obviously you're never going to have something like a "Lisp machine" that has hardware built to run Lisp.
21:26	jcromartie	it's too bad practicality and productivity have to get in the way of lofty goals and idealistic outlooks
21:26	jcromartie	:)
21:26	jcromartie	(not really)
21:54	limux	in the lastest release lein.bat 1.1.0, it required leiningen-1.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone.jar, but there is not that file at all, except the leiningen-1.0.1-standalone.jar, why?
21:56	devlinsf	liebke: Hey, trying to get those fixes in chrono
21:57	defn`	Are there any HTML/CSS parsers for clojure?
21:57	alexyk	what's a good lazy way to write nondecreasing? predicate for a seq?
21:58	liebke	devlinsf: Great, I really like your api design (and your screencasts)
21:58	defn`	im looking for something like nokogiri
21:58	devlinsf	liebke: thanks. What build tool do you use?
21:58	liebke	maven
21:58	devlinsf	Ah
21:58	devlinsf	Okay, installing
21:59	liebke	sorry to do that to you :)
21:59	defn`	i guess the next logical question i have is, if there isnt a good XPath/CSS parser for clojure, what would you recommend in Java?
21:59	alexyk	nothing like maven to get your juices going at night!
21:59	devlinsf	liebke: Eh, I haven't used it yet. I'll write this one off as a "Learning Experience"
21:59	devlinsf	liebke: :)
21:59	alexyk	oh, the rage! oh, the evil monstrous energy!
22:00	liebke	devlinsf: oh, you're in for a good time :)
22:00	devlinsf	Great
22:00	liebke	devlinsf: the existing incanter.chrono pom.xml file should work for you, you might not have to do anything
22:00	devlinsf	With a little luck
22:04	cemerick	alexyk: nondecreasing?
22:05	alexyk	cemerick: yeah!
22:05	alexyk	lazy one
22:05	alexyk	I have a reduce-driven one, but aint' lazy
22:05	devlinsf	alexyk: How about partition, map & some?
22:06	cemerick	alexyk: I'm not sure what you mean by 'nondecreasing'
22:06	devlinsf	[1 2 3]
22:06	alexyk	cemerick: ok, simply increasing? will do.
22:06	cemerick	(iterate inc 0)
22:07	alexyk	nondeacreasing? means for any subsequent x y, x <= y, increasing? means x < y
22:07	hiredman	he somehow wants a predicate to tell him that a seq only has values that increase in order, without actually looki ng at the seq
22:07	hiredman	madness
22:07	alexyk	the predicate checks an existing seq lazily and at any moment says true or false
22:07	alexyk	basically it bails once it feels violated
22:07	hiredman	that is not a predicate
22:07	alexyk	,used and betrayed by the seq
22:07	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: used in this context
22:07	hiredman	that is map
22:08	hiredman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4 0]] (map > x (rest x)))
22:08	clojurebot	(false false false true)
22:08	hiredman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4 0]] (map < x (rest x)))
22:08	clojurebot	(true true true false)
22:08	devlinsf	,(every? #(apply < %) (partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4 3]))
22:08	clojurebot	false
22:08	devlinsf	There you go
22:08	defn`	anyone have a recommendation on a good xpath/css html parser for clojure? java libs suggestions welcome
22:09	cemerick	alexyk: there's take-while if you want to consume until a predicate fails, but you have to look at a seq in order determine anything about it.
22:09	devlinsf	every? is lazy, is it fails fast
22:10	alexyk	devlinsf: looks good, hope it's lazy...
22:10	devlinsf	Every is eager, but it fails quick
22:10	devlinsf	Add a call to Thread/sleep to see
22:10	rhickey_	devlinsf: I had a question about your latest video - why are all the multimethods variadic?
22:10	alexyk	devlinsf: easy to check, lemme load 100M twits
22:11	devlinsf	rhickey_: Ah. Check my work in incater
22:11	rhickey_	?
22:11	devlinsf	http://groups.google.com/group/incanter/browse_thread/thread/4d678e226b3a1f0a
22:12	alexyk	hiredman: yours is good, but does all seq, while I need to fail asap
22:12	devlinsf	It lets you optionally pass stuff, like a keyword to the string parser
22:12	hiredman	alexyk: you cannot do that lazily
22:12	devlinsf	rhickey_ Granted, the multimethod could use some polish
22:13	hiredman	you want something to look at the whole seq, and yet some how not look at the seq
22:13	alexyk	hiredman: well I want to consume the seq lazily and stop doing it once I see it fails the test
22:13	rhickey_	I still don't understand - to-ms takes and uses only one arg
22:13	chouser	defn`: you're looking for a way to query/filter/lookup things in an html document?
22:13	devlinsf	rhickey_: I'm going to re-implement it as a protocol eventually, I'm too lazy to optimize now.
22:14	hiredman	,(let [x [1 2 3 4 0]] (take-while true? (map < x (rest x))))
22:14	rhickey_	devlinsf: I just think it's confusing, a newcomer to multimethods would be baffled
22:14	clojurebot	(true true true)
22:14	defn`	chouser: filter out specific xpaths, depending on whether a regex matches the content therein
22:14	defn`	and compose a new html doc from that information
22:14	defn`	i was trying to use enlive, but i dont know if it's well suited to my needs
22:14	devlinsf	Eh, yeah, you might be right.
22:14	chouser	defn`: enlive and zip-filter are the two most clojury solutions I know of.
22:14	defn`	im playing with htmlparser right now, but was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions
22:15	kmurph79	why is there a dot after File in this ex: (.listFiles (File. "."))
22:15	devlinsf	rhickey_: I was going for power, not easy to understand
22:15	defn`	im not clear on how to get the HTML of the tagsoup that enlive creates
22:15	chouser	kmurph79: (Foo. x) is the same as (new Foo x)
22:15	kmurph79	chouser: thank you
22:16	defn`	im doing something like (at (html-resource (as-url "http://...")) [:div#blah :p :b])
22:16	rhickey_	devlinsf: I don't see the power, you don't ever use the rest args
22:16	defn`	this returns a big ole mess of tagsoup -- anyone know how to turn that back into HTML?
22:16	alexyk	hiredman: nice, thx!
22:17	devlinsf	rhickey_: I have another version where the :default uses (into {} params)
22:17	devlinsf	keyword input
22:17	chouser	defn`: I think there's an "emit" fn there somewhere.
22:18	defn`	chouser: ill keep playing -- thanks though
22:18	chouser	you might be able to use clojure.xml/emit -- sorry, I'm not sure.
22:18	rhickey_	devlinsf: also to-ms-dispatch, very strange
22:18	devlinsf	Yeah.
22:18	devlinsf	It's an early mm
22:19	devlinsf	Hmmm... maybe I shoulda polished it a little more
22:19	rhickey_	devlinsf: I thought the example was good, but those details make it very confusing
22:19	rhickey_	especially, people often make mistakes with custom dispatch functions, essentially doing some of the dispatch there, but rendering the multimethod 'closed'
22:20	devlinsf	True. I;m not quite sure how to dispatch on an abstract class
22:20	ohpauleez	is stuart halloway in here, I forget what he uses for his IRC handle
22:21	devlinsf	Hence I'm looking forward to the protocol version
22:21	rhickey_	devlinsf: you can use class as your dispatch and the abstract class or interface as the dispatch value - it just works
22:21	devlinsf	Oh
22:21	devlinsf	Well, that should clean some stuff up.
22:21	rhickey_	because multimethods use isa matching
22:21	devlinsf	not equality?
22:21	rhickey_	right
22:21	devlinsf	Good to no
22:21	devlinsf	know
22:22	devlinsf	Sounds like I have correction #2 next week
22:22	rhickey_	devlinsf: the video series is a great idea
22:23	devlinsf	Glad to help
22:24	alexyk	hiredman: take-while piles on "true"s, I only need one
22:25	hiredman	alexyk: uh
22:25	alexyk	every? on top?
22:25	hiredman	no
22:26	hiredman	you need to figure out what you actually want so that you able to clearly explain it. by that time you should be able to write it
22:31	chouser	,(every? true? (apply map > ((juxt rest seq) [1 3 4 6 7])))
22:31	clojurebot	true
22:33	alexyk	nice
22:34	alexyk	now for strings, is there anything better than replacing < by (< (.compareTo x y) 0)?
22:45	chouser	(< (compare x y) 0)
22:46	chouser	not much better. :-P
22:48	alexyk	chouser: but generic for any types, right?
22:49	alexyk	chouser: also, devlinsf has every? <seq>, and you have every? true? <seq> -- same?
22:52	chouser	'every?' takes two args
22:57	alexyk	ah right
23:16	defn`	hmm, how do i convert from hex to a string
23:17	defn`	I have the groupings ((\6 \4) (\7 \D) ...)