#clojure – 2010-01-18

2010-01-18

00:11	tolstoy	Is there a nice way to prompt for and read in a value from the repl?
00:13	tolstoy	Ah. Hm. Maybe it's just the Netbeans repl that's the prob with (read).
00:15	tolstoy	Or maybe not.
02:36	LauJensen	Morning crew
02:47	wooby	hi all, when destructuring... how might i go about separating head and tail in an fn's arglist?
02:47	wooby	i'm aware of :as but that seems to yield the entire arg list
02:47	tolstoy	(let [[a b & rest] (some-list)]....) ?
02:48	wooby	oh duh, thanks tolstoy
02:48	tolstoy	no prob. I just learned you can do whacky map {} things that way, too.
02:50	wooby	i saw that
02:51	wooby	pretty soon my fn's won't have any bodies left :)
03:16	yangsx	it seems the problem of using swank-clojure/slime won't be resolved soon (let me know if I'm mistaken), I'm looking for using clojure on netbeans or eclipse. Anyone has any suggestions?
03:16	tolstoy	what's the problem?
03:18	yangsx	Latest versions have a problem that renders interactive using slime on clj source files impossible, but repl is OK.
03:19	tolstoy	You mean you can't eval functions or buffers into the image?
03:21	yangsx	tolstoy: that's right.
03:22	tolstoy	Yikes. I've been using the elpa package for slime / clojure mode, and then making my own standalone swank server (with appropriate classpath). Seems to work.
03:23	yangsx	tolstoy: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/92713
03:29	janmejay	has anyone experienced this problem where slime repl console doesn't
03:29	janmejay	evaluate forms on pressing return
03:29	janmejay	?
03:33	janmejay	hitting return executes slime-repl-return but doesn't evaluate the expression and doesn't return the prompt either
03:35	janmejay	inferior-lisp buffer however responds to return key and evaluates the expression
03:38	ordnungswidrig	janmejay: I remember to have encountered this behaviour but this was surely some month ago. I now use clojure-mode from elpa with a swank server started from leiningen and have no problems.
03:41	janmejay	ordnungswidrig: in my case, clojure is running as an inferior process, will try starting swank server and connect to it
03:43	janmejay	ordnungswidrig: any ideas where the problem is? any other ways to fix it?
03:44	LauJensen	janmejay, if par-edit is active in the REPL nothing will evaluate
03:46	janmejay	LauJensen: it doesn't have paredit mode
03:47	janmejay	any other gotchas?
03:47	LauJensen	Which modes are active?
03:49	janmejay	LauJensen: REPL, {user clojure} and autodoc
03:50	LauJensen	hmm... You don't need autodoc, but it doesn't appear to be a mode thats causing it. Try disabling it
03:51	janmejay	LauJensen: didn't help
03:51	janmejay	LauJensen: it responds to return key, does new lines and all that, but doesn't eval the expression and return prompt
03:57	LauJensen	janmejay: then I don't know - You could try following these instructions http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojure-101-getting-clojure-slime-installed/
03:57	LauJensen	Then I'm sure it'll work
03:58	janmejay	LauJensen: sure, will try this one
04:20	vu3rdd	yangsx: are you running Debian?
04:20	vu3rdd	I resolved the problem.
04:22	vu3rdd	yangsx: Debian's netbase package had an issue which was causing the problem.
04:23	vu3rdd	The default port being listened was an ipv6 port. You can fix it by either of the two following ways
04:24	vu3rdd	1. open /etc/sysctl.d/bindv6only.conf and make net.ipv6.bindv6only=0
04:24	vu3rdd	2. Start Java with -Djava.net.preferIPv4Stack=true
04:25	vu3rdd	either of this will work fine
04:39	jevgeni	Hi guys, I wonder, is the Clojure Google Group premoderated for new members just for the first message or is there some other logic behind?
05:10	angerman	If i have(let [t {:a {:b 1} :b {:a 2}}]) how do I get 1 or 2. ((t :a) :b)? or can I do something like (t :a :b)?
05:12	esj	(-> :b t :a)
05:13	esj	or (-> :a t :b)
05:13	angerman	thanks
05:13	esj	np
05:13	angerman	I guess (->> t :a :b)
05:14	angerman	is more "readable" :D
05:14	angerman	but i totally forgot about threading
05:14	LauJensen	->> is incredible useful and easily read
05:15	esj	yeah, I always forget that one. Feels like playing Robin Hood :)
05:16	LauJensen	Steel from the rich do you ?
05:16	LauJensen	Steal
05:18	LauJensen	Its a healthy headache though
05:18	esj	a neurogenesis headache
05:21	angerman	clojure has list comprehention, right_
05:22	esj	for
05:22	angerman	ok
05:25	Chousuke	it produces a lazy seq, though, but close enough, right? :)
05:45	LauJensen	Chousuke: lazy-seq != list comprehension ?
05:49	powr-toc	Does anyone know why add-classpath is deprecated?
05:52	lpetit	pwor-toc: because it was black magic :-)
05:54	powr-toc	lpetit: How is it black magic... other than of course
05:54	powr-toc	being classloader related :-) All it seems to do is add the jar
05:54	powr-toc	classes into the classloader clojures compiler uses
05:59	lpetit	I don't remember the exact details
05:59	unfo-	nice ctcp spam
05:59	unfo-	could somone set +R
05:59	andreas1	"nice"?
06:00	unfo-	holy fuck.
06:00	unfo-	aaaah /ignore #clojure CTCP helps a lot :)
06:00	angerman	Again. if I have a structure that looks like {:key1 {:subkey1 value}}. so the values are the leafs, can I apply a function to all leafes an get a new structure back?
06:18	LauJensen	I wonder what kind of money you make off a ctcp spam campaign
06:18	VorTechS	none, it's an attack against freenode
06:19	Chousuke	well, they might also gain some spambots
06:19	LauJensen	Oh, seems a little futile then
06:19	LauJensen	Although its surprising that Freenode didn't have some kind of mechanism in place which stopped it
06:20	Chousuke	Well, that's easy to say, but do you have any idea what that mechanism could be? :P
06:20	LauJensen	Looks like a simple IPTables rule could have stopped it
06:20	Chousuke	sure, but how do you know the network before the attack happens?
06:20	LauJensen	Or just to check if a ctcp message contains a link
06:21	Chousuke	that's too general.
06:21	LauJensen	Not really - Who needs links in CTCPs ? :)
06:21	Chousuke	Well... someone might.
06:21	LauJensen	Chousuke - You're either with us.... or against it
06:21	LauJensen	So whats it gonna be spam-lover?
06:21	Chousuke	:P
06:23	VorTechS	I understand our new daemon will prevent these attacks
06:31	powr-toc	/ignore #clojure CTCP
06:32	unfo-	powr-toc, indeed
06:57	angerman	Hmm bad network.
06:57	angerman	Sorry to ask again. if I have a structure that looks like {:key1 {:subkey1 value}}. so the values are the leafs, can I apply a function to all leafes an get a new structure back?
06:59	Chousuke	angerman: there's update-in
07:00	angerman	Chousuke: thanks, will look into
07:00	Chousuke	though if you need to apply a function on the values of the entire submap given a key, it might be better to do it "manually"
07:04	dabd	How do I pass a Map to a Clojure function from Java?
07:05	Chousuke	hmm
07:05	Chousuke	clojurefn.invoke(themap)?
07:07	dabd	Chousuke: thx
07:08	Chousuke	I haven't actually tested it, but it's something like that
07:09	dabd	however I still don't get how to create the keywords in Java so the Clojure function retrieves them as they are expected in the function signature...
07:11	Chousuke	clojure.lang.Keyword.someStaticMethod :P
07:11	Chousuke	take a look at the source
07:11	Chousuke	the java side of Clojure is not very well documented. Though I think I saw Chouser working on that.
07:12	Chousuke	I hope I didn't hallucinate
07:12	andreas1	Hi!
07:12	andreas1	Did I understand that correctly that there is no such thing as a mutable vector in Clojure?
07:12	Chousuke	Depends on what you mean.
07:13	Chousuke	the native Clojure vectors are persistent, but you can always use java things.
07:13	AWizzArd	OT: how do I say this correctly? "The user may call the web server's /xyz resource." Is it "servers" or "server's" or "servers'" or better "The user may call the /xyz resouce of the web server."?
07:14	LauJensen	andreas1: (transient []) is mutable
07:14	andreas1	Chousuke: Mh, I see.
07:14	Chousuke	LauJensen: no, it's transient!
07:14	andreas1	The difference being?
07:14	LauJensen	Chousuke: Its mutable eve nstill
07:14	andreas1	(using Java is cheating in my book...)
07:14	Chousuke	andreas1: calling it mutable might make you think you can use it like a mutable vector :P
07:15	dabd	Chousuke: it looks like it should be like this: clojure.lang.Keyword.intern(null, "name");
07:15	andreas1	Ah!
07:15	Chousuke	dabd: yeah.
07:15	LauJensen	andreas1: The difference is, that once you've worked on it, persist it with (persistent ..). That way it cant leak into your system. It has its own set of functions like conj! assoc! etc
07:15	LauJensen	Its for local mutations only, not something which is passed all around your project
07:15	Chousuke	andreas1: or I guess the correct phrasing should be "you might be tempted to use it like a non-functional data structure"
07:16	LauJensen	andreas1: http://clojure.org/transients
07:19	andreas1	Hm, transients. I see.
07:19	Chousuke	It's very important to remember that you still need to write functional algorithms if you use transients
07:20	Chousuke	They don't allow you to escape into the imperative world :)
07:20	andreas1	Hm...
07:20	LauJensen	Chousuke: If he read Richs rationale I'm sure he'll be good to go :)
07:21	andreas1	Even though I appreciate persistent data structures and functional programming, I sometimes feel like mutable data structures are a good thing, if used carefully.
07:21	Chousuke	If you need mutable data structures, the JVM's are as good as anything.
07:21	andreas1	And what if I'm using ClojureCLR?
07:22	Chousuke	then I guess you need to use the CLR's data structures :/
07:22	andreas1	That... is not a satisfactory answer. :)
07:22	Chousuke	if portability matters, you'll need to write a wrapper
07:23	Chousuke	Clojure doesn't offer you mutable data structures because you're not supposed to use them :D
07:23	andreas1	That does start to sound like the IO monad.
07:24	andreas1	btw., how can making a structure transient be O(1) if it copies said structure?
07:25	Chousuke	it doesn't.
07:25	Chousuke	Maybe some time in future Rich or someone else will come up with a way to integrate real mutable data structures into the clojure model of programming, but that hasn't happened yet.
07:27	Chousuke	the thing is, they don't work well with most of the good stuff Clojure has to offer. the STM breaks with mutable data, as do seqs. Probably some core functions presume that the things passed to them are persistent, too.
07:28	dnolen	andreas1: in the docs it says "shares structure", there's no actual copy op.
07:28	andreas1	Hrm. One could use escape analysis to get the performance of mutable data structures out of persistent structures.
07:28	Chousuke	perhaps.
07:29	Chousuke	that's up to the JVM folks for now :)
07:29	Chousuke	There isn't much interest in making the Clojure compiler very smart
07:29	andreas1	That is a huge mistake, if you ask me.
07:29	Chousuke	it just tries to produce code that's easy for the JVM to work with.
07:29	andreas1	Sure, the JVM does a lot of interesting optimizations.
07:30	Chousuke	Well, maybe someone will work on it after it gets reimplemented in Clojure
07:30	Chousuke	but for now, it's not a priority.
07:30	andreas1	But there are some things the JVM just can't do, because it lacks information the Clojure compiler has.
07:31	Chousuke	I mean, certainly no-one would object to a having a smarter compiler, but currently the cost-benefit ratio is not very good.
07:31	andreas1	Does the current compiler do any kind of type inference?
07:31	dnolen	andreas1: not really.
07:32	andreas1	The thing I would be afraid of is that there are things in the language design that make writing a good compiler intractable.
07:33	Chousuke	I don't think that will be a problem.
07:33	dnolen	andreas1: i doubt that.
07:33	andreas1	I don't have an opinion on that yet, as I don't know enough clojure yet.
07:34	andreas1	But the way multi methods work looks suspicious. One wants to have the capability to resolve dispatch at compile time.
07:35	dnolen	andreas1: look into deftype and defprotocl then.
07:35	Chousuke	but that would break dynamicity
07:35	Chousuke	and the JVM can optimise such things pretty well.
07:36	andreas1	I'm coming from a Dylan background, btw., the last attempt at a better Lisp dialect.
07:36	andreas1	dnolen: I will.
07:36	Chousuke	but yeah, multimethods are needlessly slow for the common case. that's why everyone's excited about deftype and protocols :)
07:36	dnolen	adnreas1: mikel, a dylan fan, really got into Clojure. So I assume there will be plenty in Clojure to make you happy ;)
07:37	Chousuke	but now I must leave for food. Later.
07:37	andreas1	dnolen: Clojure is certainly the first language in this millenium that I'm getting excited about. :)
07:37	andreas1	Chousuke: later!
08:01	LauJensen	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Protocols
08:03	andreas1	LauJensen: thanks.
08:04	LauJensen	np
08:05	andreas1	Although given all the research done on multimethods, I fail to see the point of introducing yet another mechanism to do about the same.
08:08	esbena	gen-and-load-class is an unknown symbol for me - what do I need to do to make it available?
08:09	dnolen	andreas: deftype and defprotocol are mostly about performance as well as being the groundwork for implementing Clojure-in-Clojure. If you want something more flexible/general multimethods are certainly the way to go.
08:11	andreas1	dnolen: if performance is the reason, somebody didn't do their homework on how to make multimethods fast.
08:27	ohpauleez	Can anyone point me to a resource that will help me hook up a clojure REPL to a maven project?
08:28	ohpauleez	or is the typical way to make a clojure script that does all the imports and starts a repl
08:39	alexyk	~maven clojure
08:40	alexyk	clojurebot: google maven clojure
08:40	clojurebot	First, out of 9260 results is:
08:40	clojurebot	talios's clojure-maven-plugin at master - GitHub
08:40	clojurebot	http://github.com/talios/clojure-maven-plugin
08:40	ohpauleez	the maven clojure plugin?
08:40	alexyk	yep
08:40	ohpauleez	cool, thanks
08:41	ohpauleez	I was just about to try it, I couldn't tell if it was strictly for handling clojure projects, or if I could also use it for interop
08:41	alexyk	am not sure
08:48	cemerick	ohpauleez: talios' plugin is very good, FWIW
08:48	ohpauleez	cool, thanks cemerick
08:48	cemerick	We don't use clojure projects per se -- just regular java projects + clojure-maven-plugin
08:49	ohpauleez	that's exactly what I'm looking for
08:50	cemerick	I'm not sure what a "clojure project" would be, actually. Enclojure has the concept, but as far as I can tell, that just pulls in some custom packaging mechanism (which has been rapidly subsumed by other efforts, IMO).
08:51	cemerick	ohpauleez: not sure what environment you use, but enclojure provides a 'start repl here' command for any project, which is nice.
08:51	ohpauleez	that's what I'm looking for
08:52	ohpauleez	at whatever level I'm at, I want to have a repl
08:52	ohpauleez	with all the dependencies I need
08:52	ohpauleez	so I don't have to do all the imports
08:53	cemerick	yeah, the nice thing about enclojure is that, even if you have a pure-java project that depends upon clojure (or another project that depends upon clojure), but which has no clojure code itself, the 'start repl' command will work without a hitch.
08:54	ohpauleez	cool, I'll take a look at it
08:55	andreas1	try/catch unwinds the stack before caling your exception handler?
08:58	jcromartie	so is compojure + enlive kind of a "blank slate" in terms of how you set it up?
08:58	jcromartie	like, there's no convention for how to name things or where to put stuff?
09:11	chouser	someone on the internet is wrong!
09:11	_fogus	chouser: Go get em!
09:11	chouser	:-P
09:12	dnolen	andreas1: try/catch is from java so yes. you might want to look at chouser's error-kit in clojure-contrib
09:12	andreas1	dnolen: I see, thanks.
09:13	chouser	,(fn [] (loop [i (int 0)] (recur nil)))
09:13	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: recur arg for primitive local: i must be matching primitive
09:14	chouser	look at that, a nice tidy compile-time error because i is an unboxed primitive and so nil is not a possible value
09:14	LauJensen	uuuh
09:14	LauJensen	thats new
09:14	chouser	since when?
09:14	chouser	I mean, not very new.
09:14	Chousuke	I think that's quite old, actually.
09:14	jcromartie	how do you all structure your compojure projects?
09:14	dnolen	jcromartie: no conventions, definitely blank slate.
09:15	jcromartie	maybe at least have views/ for Enlive templates
09:16	jcromartie	maybe src/ and public/
09:18	_fogus	That quote is from here: http://clojure.org/data_structures
09:18	chouser	gah!
09:18	chouser	rhickey: may I please fix that?
09:19	LauJensen	_fogus: when you say 'that quote' what do you mean ?
09:19	_fogus	The other quote is from here: http://clojure.org/runtime_polymorphism
09:20	_fogus	"Clojure does not support implementation inheritance." and "nil is a possible value of any data type in Clojure (since primitives are always boxed)"
09:20	jcromartie	what's the most up-to-date Clojure tutorial?
09:20	jcromartie	err
09:20	jcromartie	Compojure
09:21	andreas1	fogus: You seem to be reading my tweets. :)
09:21	jcromartie	(sorry parsing only this morning C.j.)
09:21	_fogus	andreas1: That would not be false. ;-)
09:22	cemerick	jcromartie: we follow maven conventions. Enlive templates are in src/main/resources.
09:22	jcromartie	ah, so you can then just deploy as a WAR?
09:22	chouser	andreas1: it looks like the official pages are a little out of date or something.
09:23	LauJensen	jcromartie: I think I have a few blogposts on Compojure, www.bestinclass.dk
09:23	cemerick	actually, src/main/webapp so they're in proper position w.r.t. css and js, but we define src/main/webapp as a resource root so that they're copied into the war as classpath-accessible resources
09:23	cemerick	jcromartie: right
09:24	chouser	perhaps just overly broad.
09:24	rhickey	chouser: fix what?
09:24	chouser	"primitives are always boxed" on http://clojure.org/data_structures
09:24	andreas1	chouser: I see... however, what is the truth in this case?
09:24	andreas1	"nil is a possible value of all data types except unboxed"?
09:25	AWizzArd	Does the master branch now include most recent updates, such as deftypes, the new agent error handling, etc?
09:25	cemerick	cgrand: is there any potential downside to using xml-resource to consume xhtml in enlive?
09:25	rhickey	chouser: ok - fixed to say what?
09:26	chouser	nil is a possible value of any non-primitive, I guess
09:27	cgrand	cemerick: no, as long as it's xhtml xml-resource is ok
09:27	chouser	or "primitives are boxed except when held in primitive locals or fields"
09:27	cemerick	cgrand: OK, that's what I figured, but your github msg got me slightly worried :-)
09:28	andreas1	Is there documentation on what primitives are?
09:28	andreas1	I think btw. that nil being a possible value for all non-primitive data types is one of the major misfeatures of Java.
09:28	chouser	LauJensen: that compile-time check of the primitive has been in place at least since Jun 1 2008
09:29	Chousuke	andreas1: well, java only really has two things: primitives and references
09:29	chouser	andreas1: it is true that Clojure is (mostly) dynamically typed, which almost necessarily brings in some of the things I think you're objecting to.
09:30	andreas1	chouser: That's not true. I can easily have a dynamic language with a type that doesn't allow nil.
09:30	_fogus	chouser: Why not just change the part in parens to "(except for primitives)" with a link to http://clojure.org/java_interop#toc37 perhaps
09:30	LauJensen	chouser: I guess I'll just have to give up my old habit of immediately dismissing the backtrace in order to look at the code :)
09:30	Chousuke	andreas1: it might be useful to have references that you can't explicitly nullify, but hm.
09:31	chouser	like "no type inference" -- it's mostly unnecessary because Clojure's dynamically typed, though there is a little bit of type hint deduction going on...
09:31	andreas1	Chousuke: it is extremely useful, because I don't have to deal with nil all over the place.
09:31	_fogus	The problem with nil isn't that it's there... it's that it plays double or triple duty
09:31	Chousuke	andreas1: but nil is also a very useful value sometimes.
09:31	Chousuke	andreas1: as "I have nothing"
09:32	chouser	andreas1: hm, maybe we're not meaning the same thing. there's no such thing as a nil vector, for example, but anything that can hold a vector (a local, a var, a ref, etc.) could also be nil
09:32	andreas1	Chousuke: type unions of your type and the canonical false value serve this purpose pretty well.
09:32	Chousuke	andreas1: what if you want the value to be false?
09:32	andreas1	chouser: and type inference is extremely useful to get performance out of dynamically typed languages.
09:32	chouser	_fogus: yeah, I like your solution.
09:33	andreas1	Chousuke: I just cons up a special magic "no such value" object.
09:33	Chousuke	or you could just use nil :)
09:33	Chousuke	I think Clojure handles nil pretty well.
09:33	andreas1	What if you want nil to be a legal value?
09:33	Chousuke	well, it is.
09:34	andreas1	Type inference in dynamic languages was pioneered by CMU CL, btw., some 20 years ago.
09:34	Chousuke	in most cases it just means "nothing".
09:34	andreas1	Yeah. However, sometimes it doesn't make sense to pass "nothing".
09:34	Chousuke	I mean, it's not perfect, but in a dynamic language there's not much use in having separate "nothing" types.
09:35	andreas1	I think this is the time to ask what exactly your definition of a "dynamic language" is.
09:36	andreas1	Because yes, it makes perfect sense to allow "nothing" values only in those places in your program where they do make sense.
09:36	chouser	andreas1: "allow" as in to otherwise prevent at compile time?
09:36	Chousuke	yes, but I think it would make no difference if the null is of type "String null" or "Keyword null" because it would behave the same in every case
09:37	andreas1	chouser: at compile time if you can, at run time if you must.
09:37	_fogus	Chousuke: I can imagine a separate nothing type being highly useful in a language with Clojure-like multimethods
09:37	andreas1	It wouldn't be "String null". It would be type union of "String" and "null".
09:38	Chousuke	so Maybe String, then? :P
09:38	chouser	currently, Clojure does to rather less at compile time than it could, but there are interesting possibilities ahead.
09:38	andreas1	(def maybe-string (type-union :String :Null))
09:38	andreas1	Why not.
09:38	Chousuke	but how is that different from Maybe Keyword, if the type is necessarily determined at runtime anyway.
09:39	Chousuke	I mean, because the language is dynamic, you can pass a Maybe Keyword to something that expects a Maybe String
09:39	Chousuke	and it'll just fail.
09:39	Chousuke	at runtime.
09:39	Chousuke	you might be able to do static compile time checks to prevent such things, but fundamentally you must not make it impossible
09:40	Chousuke	because then the language would not be dynamic
09:40	andreas1	I don't think it is a good idea to have everything dynamic anyways.
09:40	andreas1	I don
09:41	andreas1	I don't see why it should be a bad idea to write a function and declare "this function takes two strings as its argument".
09:41	Chousuke	it's not a bad idea.
09:41	Chousuke	but you should also be able to redefine that function to take two keywords
09:41	Chousuke	in a static language, that's impossible.
09:42	andreas1	And I don't see why it would be less dynamic just because I get a meaningful type error at compile time or runtime when trying to call the function with something else than a string.
09:42	andreas1	Plus, I don't mind when redefining the function signature at runtime is an expensive operation.
09:43	Chousuke	you (ideally) do get meaningful type errors at runtime in a dynamic language.
09:43	chouser	Clojure has pre/post conditions to help check things at runtime
09:43	_fogus	andreas1: You can get some of this using :pre and :post
09:43	chouser	:-)
09:43	_fogus	... or what chouser said
09:43	Chousuke	tht's the point. the types are there; whether the code makes sense is determined when you actually execute it
09:43	Chousuke	you can't add together two strings
09:44	andreas1	I prefer if the type system automatically takes care of that.
09:44	Chousuke	unless you define the + operation for them somehow, which might be possible in a dynamic language.
09:44	chouser	And I am looking forward to the static checking that datalog may be bringing.
09:44	andreas1	chouser: datalog?
09:45	Chousuke	andreas1: it's a difference in approach
09:45	chouser	andreas1: there's a datalog lib in contrib. I don't know how far away it is from providing what I'm hoping to see...
09:46	Chousuke	andreas1: that said, dynamicism doesn't completely preclude static checking
09:46	chouser	the idea is that it could be used to make deductions and assertions about your code at compile time -- just just classic types, but whatever other assertions you which to make based on facts you provide in the code at compile time.
09:47	chouser	s/just just/not just/
09:47	andreas1	chouser: that sounds good.
09:47	chouser	andreas1: I think so too, but like I said I don't know how far away it is.
09:47	_fogus	Speaking of contrib's datalog... is that actively maintained?
09:47	Chousuke	andreas1: however, I consider it important that you can just tell the compiler to shut up and let you write the code :)
09:48	andreas1	Chousuke: I second that.
09:48	spariev	hi, is there any yaml parser in clojure ?
09:48	Chousuke	andreas1: for example, with a dynamic system it's trivial to write "incomplete" systems that you know will fail if you execute a certain code path, simply because it's not implemented yet.
09:48	Chousuke	andreas1: it's very nice for incremental development.
09:48	chouser	~google java yaml
09:48	clojurebot	First, out of 187000 results is:
09:48	clojurebot	JYaml - Yaml library for the Java language
09:48	clojurebot	http://jyaml.sourceforge.net/
09:48	andreas1	I have that pet theory that the difference between static and dynamic languages is that the former throw errors at compile time, and the latter throw warnings and introduce runtime type checks.
09:49	chouser	spariev: there you go!
09:49	andreas1	Chousuke: Yes, but when I'm done hacking, I want to be able to tidy up the code and make it run fast.
09:49	andreas1	Chousuke: Without having to rewrite it all in a different language.
09:49	Chousuke	andreas1: sure, and a dynamic system can allow that.
09:50	chouser	andreas1: Clojure does some interesting things to get performance out of dynamic code, esp. post-1.1
09:50	andreas1	Chousuke: I'm coming from a Dylan background, which does have such a dynamic system. :)
09:50	spariev	chouser: thanks, I know about jyaml, I just thought there are exist pure clojure lib
09:51	chouser	spariev: oh, I see. I don't know of one, but I would recommend embracing Java libs that get the job done. :-)
09:51	andreas1	chouser: I hope you're not referring to defprotocol here...
09:52	Chousuke	andreas1: I just think that you don't need static checking to get faster code :)
09:52	andreas1	Chousuke: Let me give you an example.
09:53	chouser	andreas1: hm, don't you like defprotocol? :-) I was referring to the keyword call-site caching stuff.
09:53	andreas1	In Dylan, the for loop is a macro.
09:54	andreas1	Chousuke: in Dylan, the FOR loop is a macro.
09:54	andreas1	You write 'for (i in collection) do-something(i); end;'
09:55	andreas1	The macro expands into a call to a multimethod, that returns a number of functions to iterate across the collection.
09:55	andreas1	A local function with tail recursion is used to implement the loop, and the functions are called to do the iteration.
09:56	andreas1	Now if the compiler happens to know that 'collection' is, say, a vector, it can resolve the multimethod call.
09:56	andreas1	It can then inline the call to the specific method for vectors.
09:57	Chousuke	right.
09:57	andreas1	It can then inline all the functions that make up the iteration protocol.
09:57	andreas1	Tail recursion removal kicks in, too.
09:57	Chousuke	the JVM does stuff like that at runtime :)
09:57	andreas1	In the end, a whopping 4 assembler instructions are emitted.
09:57	andreas1	An init, an increment, a compare and a branch.
09:58	chouser	Mmmm. That does indeed sound like some good engineering.
09:58	Chousuke	it can notice that 99% of the objects passed to a certain function are of a certain type, and inline code based on that.
09:58	chouser	If you later pass in something that's not a vector, does it drop back to a slow path?
09:59	andreas1	chouser: You make a promise at compile time that this will always be a vector.
09:59	chouser	ah, so not dynamic anymore.
09:59	andreas1	No.
09:59	Chousuke	the JVM? As far as I know, yes.
09:59	chouser	right, so that's one interesting trade-off.
09:59	Chousuke	the fun thing is, the type check should be free
09:59	andreas1	chouser: If you have the compiler at run time, you might be able to do stuff like that dynamically.
10:00	Chousuke	because of weird out-of-order processor black magic
10:00	chouser	Chousuke: right
10:00	chouser	free. amazing.
10:00	andreas1	chouser: exactly. I can write dynamic code for my experimental hacking, and then when I'm down with it, I sprinkle a couple of type declarations over my code, and it becomes fast.
10:01	chouser	andreas1: sure, but I meant a trade-off between dynamic-to-the-end (with as much speed as possible) vs. speed via staticness
10:02	Chousuke	chouser: I don't claim to understand the details, but I think it in essence executes both codepaths simultaneously and just throws out the one that fails :P
10:02	Chousuke	chouser: black magic.
10:02	chouser	andreas1: anyway, my main purpose is not to convince you of anything, but I want to make sure you at least have correct facts about Clojure on which to base your conclusions. :-)
10:03	andreas1	chouser: This is well appreciated.
10:03	chouser	Clojure does have some things (sprecifically primitive locals) that cannot hold nil, and the compiler even does some of that checking at compile time.
10:04	Chousuke	you also get compile-time checks for tail-recursion
10:04	Chousuke	which is fun.
10:05	chouser	Clojure can be aware of the (host vm) types of things at compile time, and make very simple deductions (not sure I would call it "inference") based on those.
10:06	Chousuke	Also why I think recur should stay even if the JVM gains a TCO guarantee. And maybe for mutual recursion you could have a (recur-at somefn args)
10:06	chouser	Clojure does allow you to define objects (via proxy and now reify) that inherit implementation from host vm classes.
10:06	andreas1	I keep reading "host vm". :)
10:07	chouser	but having said that Clojure does not encourage implementation in heritence (I think rhickey considers it a misfeature) and instead encourages more of mixin approach
10:07	chouser	andreas1: yes you do. :-)
10:07	Chousuke	andreas1: There are two implementations of Clojure on two different hosts. :)
10:08	chouser	Three if you count JavaScript. Which I don't. So 2.
10:08	Chousuke	That said, Clojure on the JVM is the "standard" and ClojureCLR just tries to look like it as much as possible.
10:08	andreas1	I'm just saying that it is cheating to point to the host VM for features that I feel missing in a language.
10:08	chouser	no! not cheating!
10:08	andreas1	Especially if there are multiple.
10:08	Chousuke	Well, Clojure is very tightly bound to the host
10:09	chouser	...whichever host you happen to choose. :-)
10:09	Chousuke	That might become less true as things advance, but right now ClojureCLR and ClojureJVM are quite separate entities
10:10	andreas1	And if I got my terminology right, "mixins" do have implementation inheritance.
10:10	andreas1	The thing without implementation inheritance is "interface".
10:10	chouser	it's really a lovely idea. Maybe one day someone will create a vm designed specifically for running Clojure code, but I have a hard time believing it will be able to compete with other broader vms
10:10	andreas1	I just don't see why you wouldn't have all your language features specified independently of the host vm.
10:11	Chousuke	andreas1: well, you could. but some of those features could be a really bad fit for the host
10:11	chouser	andreas1: "mixin" may not be quite the right word. when you extend a protocol, you can reuse existing functions or groups of functions.
10:11	Chousuke	so you'd have to implement all kinds of workarounds and you'd lose the "seamlessness" that clojure provides.
10:12	Chousuke	That's the reason strings don't have metadata, among other things
10:12	andreas1	I was wondering about that.
10:13	andreas1	And I haven't made up my mind about metadata yet.
10:13	Chousuke	The tight interop is sometimes limiting, but it's still a feature. :)
10:15	chouser	I do think the JVM is probably the single biggest drawback to Clojure, as well as one of its most important features.
10:16	andreas1	Hm. You probably have a point there.
10:16	andreas1	The thing that attracts me ATM is the new approach towards concurrency.
10:17	chouser	but as yet unconvinced about the persistent collections?
10:18	andreas1	Still unconvinced. The transient thing might be the right solution, I need to meditate about that.
10:18	andreas1	I know why persistent collections are required to make concurrency work.
10:18	Chousuke	transients are just a performance optimisation for a very specific use case, though.
10:18	chouser	what about immutable locals? How does that sit with you?
10:18	andreas1	However, sometimes I don't need concurrency, but fast mutable vectors.
10:19	andreas1	Again, Dijkstra's algorithm comes to mind.
10:19	chouser	andreas1: Java has a nice suite of mutable collection types that are handy to use.
10:20	andreas1	chouser: from a language designer perspective, that's considered cheating.
10:20	andreas1	Akin to "if you want performance, use assembler".
10:20	chouser	but from a language user's perspective, it's fantastic.
10:20	chouser	nono, they interoperate quite nicely
10:20	datka	dropping to java is much different from dropping to assembler
10:20	chouser	,(for [x (java.util.ArrayList. [1 2 3])] (+ 10 x))
10:20	clojurebot	(11 12 13)
10:20	andreas1	Immutable locals... I don't see why they are needed yet. SSA transformation does exist.
10:21	andreas1	So, why isn't there a mutable array in Clojure that's implemented using a Java vector?
10:21	chouser	that's clojure's lazy-seq-generating 'for' macro walking through a mutable Java ArrayList
10:21	chouser	andreas1: why bother?
10:21	Chousuke	andreas1: what would that win you over just using the java vector? :/
10:21	andreas1	Chousuke: consistency?
10:22	Chousuke	in which way?
10:22	andreas1	No need to touch my code when porting to ClojureCLR?
10:22	chouser	ah, well. That's a whole different feature set that Clojure does not attempt to provide
10:22	Chousuke	the thing is, you couldn't allow the java things to use conj etc. because then they could get mixed with persistent collections
10:23	chouser	Clojure JVM helps you port between Windows/Mac/Linux, but what language lets you port between JVM and CLR? Certainly not Dylan...
10:23	Chousuke	which is not acceptable. :)
10:23	Chousuke	chouser: Common Lisp implementations perhaps.
10:23	chouser	Chousuke: hm, perhaps. Good point.
10:24	andreas1	In theory, I could write Dylan backends for both JVM and CLR. In practice... well... me and which army? :)
10:24	Chousuke	providing you don't use threading or anything nonportable :P
10:24	andreas1	Scheme should run on both VMs.
10:24	chouser	andreas1: right. :-/
10:25	andreas1	Ok, folks, I'm going to get lunch. Has been nice talking to you, thanks for all the information.
10:25	chouser	same applies to Clojure of course. How much effort do we want to put into rewriting mutable vectors in pure Clojure compared to getting more advanced concurrency features. or whatever.
10:25	chouser	andreas1: thanks for dropping by :-)
10:26	andreas1	I try to kick my ass intro writing a decent blog entry on all this.
10:26	Chousuke	andreas1: you could try specifying a protocol for mutable things and then implementing it on both ClojureCLR and Clojure :)
10:27	andreas1	Chousuke: Yeah, something like that. Introduce mutability into Clojure!
10:27	Chousuke	and watch as people run away from you
10:28	andreas1	Well, one day there will be a language that's close to perfect. And Clojure explores an important point in the design space.
10:28	andreas1	Anyways, cu all!
10:36	AWizzArd	I just read some parts of this discussion static vs. dynamic. One thing that I would like is optional static typing.
10:37	AWizzArd	The typing system can spit out all info about the problems it finds. And the developer can decide how many of these warnings he/she wants to remove. This could end up in a completely statically typed program, or there could be no change at all.
10:37	Chousuke	lisp can be anything :/
10:37	Chousuke	it's so malleable
10:37	ordnungswidrig	AWizzArd: hmmm, static typing plus persistence sounds a lot like haskell. You'll be soon in higher-order-type hell :)
10:38	_fogus	AWizzArd: Have you looked at Qi?
10:38	AWizzArd	_fogus: yes
10:39	_fogus	Is that along the lines of what you're talking about?
10:39	AWizzArd	I was thinking about something like that: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/7a48f48e4b197a15/9538dbdb1549f1c6?tvc=1&q=thieme+#9538dbdb1549f1c6
10:41	AWizzArd	One interesting alternative could be to extend an already existing bug detector with the necessary capabilities to do full optional static type checking of Clojure programs. FindBugs (http://findbugs.sourceforge.net/) could be such a plattform.
10:42	AWizzArd	This can (over time) become more integrated into the different IDEs, by using the API to analyse Clojure code.
10:55	jcromartie	Is this really necessary when using Enlive, currently? (:refer-clojure :exclude [empty complement])
10:55	jcromartie	it seems like a straightforwardly bad design
10:55	jcromartie	like it would be better for enlive to specify its own empty and complement fns explicitly rather than making me dance around their redefinitions
11:05	Chousuke	jcromartie: don't :use enlive :)
11:05	jcromartie	oh?
11:05	Chousuke	you should use :require instead, so you can specify an alias for enlive
11:05	Chousuke	then you can type (en/empty ...)
11:06	jcromartie	oh sorry I thought you were saying "don't use enlive" (sans ":")
11:06	jcromartie	:)
11:06	jcromartie	yeah that makes sense
11:07	Chousuke	it's a bit more typing, but should be worth it in the long run
11:08	Chousuke	I think it's also possible to import functions and rename them, but I don't remember the syntax for that.
11:08	jcromartie	yeah, I guess I was just considering repl use
11:08	jcromartie	I usually just launch a repl and (use ...)
11:09	jcromartie	then I stick things in source files when they work well enough
11:09	jcromartie	by the way, rlwrap is a real gem of an tool
11:09	Chousuke	heh.
11:09	Chousuke	you could write a custom import macro and put it in user.clj :P
11:10	Chousuke	(import-rename-conflicts ...)
11:20	Hali_303	hi! How to test that a function returns true on all element of a list?
11:20	Hali_303	something like "forall"
11:21	cgrand	jcromartie: enlive doesn't clash with clojure
11:21	jcromartie	yeah, sorry to badmouth your lib :P I am still getting my head around the idiomatic way to import libs in different cases
11:22	jcromartie	I assume that it's fine to (:use net.cgrand.enlive-html) in an ns in a source file
11:22	jcromartie	as long as I don't use empty or complement
11:22	jcromartie	(and then I can just specify which one I want)
11:22	cgrand	what's the problem with empty and complement? Which version are you using?
11:23	cgrand	:use (without :only) of any library is strongly discouraged except at the REPL
11:24	Chousuke	Hali_303: "every?"
11:25	Hali_303	Chousuke: thanks :)
12:13	osirisx11	hi
12:13	osirisx11	i want to use a clojure program but it is in source form only, clojure looks interesting but i don't have the time to learn it right now
12:14	osirisx11	please, can anyone tell me how i can compile this code? http://github.com/esessoms/gvgw/blob/master/
12:14	osirisx11	http://github.com/esessoms/gvgw
12:15	r2q2	http://github.com/zitterbewegung/blank-appengine-clj <- I made a blank slate for people to start with google app engine
12:17	osirisx11	thank you r2q2
12:17	datka	If you can get a repl with the src/ in your classpath, you could (require 'com.nubgames.gvgw)
12:17	r2q2	no problem
12:17	r2q2	i think there might be mistakes i will test it
12:18	r2q2	but basically its just following a blog post I believe it requires gae 1.2.0
12:18	somnium	arent they on 1.3 now?
12:18	r2q2	yea thats the point alot of the blog posts are from 1.2.x not 1.3
12:18	r2q2	*point/problem
12:19	osirisx11	datka: i appreciate your help, i am a very skilled web dev and i know lots of languages, but clojure is not one of them (yet), can you please provide me specific instructions on how i can compile?
12:19	datka	It's unfortunate that this project doesn't include a build file
12:20	osirisx11	it can't be inferred based on the libs and the clj files?
12:20	r2q2	somnium: I'm not sure if it actually works with 1.3 though
12:21	Hali_303	two questions: 1. how to evaluate if a list contains only unique elements? 2. how to tell if a function returns true on at least one element of a list?
12:22	somnium	r2q2: Ive been using 1.3 with no problems, though I hardly touch the sdk tbh, so no idea :)
12:22	r2q2	somnium: Okay maybe its my incompetence then.
12:23	_fogus	Hali_303: For #2, look at some
12:23	_fogus	,(doc some)
12:23	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
12:24	somnium	Hali_303: for #1, you could try (= (count coll) (count (distinct coll)))
12:25	_fogus	Hali_303: And for #1, sets always contain unique values.
12:25	datka	osirisx11: If you look at http://clojure.org/getting_started it gives you the line to start a repl, add the dirs for the libs and src to the classpath (after the -cp)
12:25	osirisx11	thanks
12:26	datka	There are many other ways of starting clojure, but that's just one way
12:27	osirisx11	i installed a binary package on my ubuntu 9.10
12:27	datka	you could probably steal one of the build.xml or pom.xml files from another project if you wanted it compiled to a jar
12:27	osirisx11	so i don't know if referencing the jar will work
12:27	osirisx11	ok
12:27	osirisx11	thanks
12:27	osirisx11	i have one handy from enlive
12:28	Hali_303	_fogus: somnium: thank you
12:29	osirisx11	wow that worked great!
12:29	osirisx11	all i did was a replace from enlive to gvgw and ran ant
12:30	osirisx11	umm ant is complaining it can't find clojure.jar yet it also said build successful and output my jar files
12:31	r2q2	i hate ant :-(
12:31	jcromartie	I'm happy to have some shell scripts to handle my builds right now.
12:32	jcromartie	my stuff is simple
12:32	osirisx11	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: //gvgw/jar Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: ..gvgw.jar
12:32	jcromartie	env vars to handle dependencies
12:32	osirisx11	so i guess it didn't compile?
12:33	jcromartie	let me take a crack at it on my system
12:34	jcromartie	osirisx11: how do you intend to use this without using Clojure itself?
12:34	jcromartie	it doesn't export any classes as far as I can tell
12:35	jcromartie	it looks like it is only intended to be used from a Clojure lib/repl as it is
12:37	osirisx11	jcromartie: i did install the packages for it, which also includes clojure.jar in /usr/share/java
12:37	jcromartie	osirisx11: yeah, but I mean what are you going to do with a clojure lib that has no Java interface?
12:37	jcromartie	or does it run by itself
12:37	osirisx11	thanks jcromartie, i have no clue about repls
12:37	osirisx11	i have no clue about this project either
12:38	jcromartie	k
12:38	jcromartie	well let's ee
12:38	jcromartie	see
12:38	osirisx11	thanks jcromartie
12:38	osirisx11	i'm a great programmer in other langs, but clojure and scheme is totally new to me
12:38	jcromartie	it looks like it has a main so you can in fact run it by itself
12:39	osirisx11	james@james-desktop:~/projects/gvgw$ clojure src/com/nubgames/gvgw/main.clj
12:39	osirisx11	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: defn- in this context (main.clj:7)
12:39	osirisx11	am i doing it right?
12:39	jcromartie	that's not good
12:40	jcromartie	defn- is part of clojure.core
12:40	osirisx11	lol
12:40	jcromartie	what's your script for starting gvgw?
12:40	osirisx11	just what i pasted
12:40	jcromartie	so what's clojure?
12:40	jcromartie	the command?
12:42	osirisx11	jcromartie: http://pastebin.ca/1756301
12:42	osirisx11	i also have the jar in /usr/share/java/clojure.jar
12:44	jcromartie	oh that's new to me I didn't know there was an official clojure command :)
12:44	jcromartie	where is that from?
12:45	r2q2	when i use clojars
12:45	r2q2	i feel like im in a spongebob squarepants movie
12:45	jcromartie	hah, what?
12:45	r2q2	look at the errors when you do something wrong
12:46	r2q2	Blistering barnacles! Something's not shipshape:
12:46	r2q2	Password can't be blank
12:46	jcromartie	osirisx11: I was assuming clojure was a custom shell script or something
12:46	r2q2	Password: Hunter1
12:46	jcromartie	that's hilarious
12:46	osirisx11	jcromartie: it came when i did apt-get install clojure
12:46	jcromartie	ah, fancy dancy apt user
12:47	jcromartie	nice stuff though
12:47	osirisx11	shrug everyone's got their flavor
12:47	jcromartie	so clojure.jar should already be somewhere
12:47	osirisx11	yes, as i said, /usr/share/java
12:47	osirisx11	i do appreciate your help
12:48	jcromartie	when you just run clojure, do you get a prompt?
12:48	jcromartie	you should be able to type defn- and hit enter and get some sort of message
12:48	jcromartie	other than a missing symbol error
12:49	jcromartie	"Can't take value of a macro" would be good
12:49	jcromartie	otherwise there's something seriously messed up
12:49	osirisx11	yes i got that can't take a value of a macro at the clojure prompt
12:50	osirisx11	wow i didn't think this would be so hard to compile a clojure app
12:50	r2q2	osirisx11: Its industrial strength
12:50	osirisx11	what happened to good ol' ./configure make make install?
12:50	r2q2	osirisx11: Try out incanter
12:50	r2q2	osirisx11: I mean lein
12:51	r2q2	osirisx11: Much easier than ant in my opinion
12:51	datka	osirisx11: in this case, there's no "makefile" that's the only reason it's so hard
12:51	osirisx11	datka: i made one
12:51	osirisx11	still won't compile...hmm
12:51	jcromartie	osirisx11: you generally don't just compile a clojure app
12:52	osirisx11	oh, well i'm okay with just running it
12:52	osirisx11	or however
12:52	jcromartie	yah
12:52	osirisx11	but idk how to do that either
12:52	osirisx11	lol
12:53	jcromartie	OK so the deal with this gvgw is that you need to put all of its dependencies on the classpath
12:53	jcromartie	that's lib/*.jar
12:53	jcromartie	and more, elive too
12:53	jcromartie	enlive
12:54	osirisx11	ya i have a lib folder
12:54	jcromartie	this project is not quite ready for prime time when it comes to being runnable
12:54	osirisx11	i fixed enlive, everything is good on libs
12:54	jcromartie	ok cool
12:54	hiredman	I would ditch whatever script you are using to launch clojure
12:54	osirisx11	is there not a one liner to start this sucker?
12:54	jcromartie	apparently not
12:54	osirisx11	java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main gvgw something?
12:54	hiredman	osirisx11: yes
12:55	osirisx11	what is that?
12:55	hiredman	but you also need any other required jars in the classpath
12:55	hiredman	-cp clojure.jar:whatever.jar
12:55	osirisx11	it's in the lib folder there
12:55	osirisx11	ok
12:55	osirisx11	i can't just reference the one folder huh
12:55	hiredman	nope
12:56	hiredman	clojurebot: simple?
12:56	hiredman	gah
12:56	datka	blame java, not clojure for that one
12:56	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
12:56	clojurebot	PONG!
12:56	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple
12:56	r2q2	yay pushed to clojars
12:56	hiredman	gar
12:57	osirisx11	i'm giving up
12:57	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
12:57	clojurebot	I know 528 things
12:57	r2q2	clojurebot: I <3 you
12:57	hiredman	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
12:58	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple setup is http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
12:58	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
12:58	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple setup?
12:58	jcromartie	OK I got it running
12:58	clojurebot	dirt simple setup is http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
12:59	jcromartie	incoming Gist in a few
12:59	jcromartie	http://gist.github.com/280232
13:00	jcromartie	OK that script will put together a classpath with all of the jars in lib/ and then start a repl
13:00	osirisx11	thanks hiredman, why are they skipping step VII?
13:00	jcromartie	at which point you can load gvgw
13:00	osirisx11	thanks guys
13:00	Raynes	Gist incoming!! Take your positions! FIRE!
13:00	hiredman	osirisx11: don't worry about it
13:01	jcromartie	osirisx11: I must admit this is way more work than most languages
13:01	jcromartie	but I've gotten my clj down to irb simplicity
13:01	osirisx11	i blame java for most of it
13:01	jcromartie	indeed
13:01	jcromartie	the classpath
13:02	osirisx11	yeah
13:02	osirisx11	java is so bloated and falling over itself
13:02	jcromartie	but it is supposed to be finer-grained control over what you load
13:02	jcromartie	and java is not supposed to be used for small utilities
13:02	osirisx11	so many ways to do things in java, and most of them are not the Right way
13:02	jcromartie	eh, I don't think that's really the case
13:03	jcromartie	the way to run a Java program is to specify where to find the classes in $CLASSPATH and specify the main class
13:03	ajazz	hello, how can I change default-encoding in clojure.contrib.duck-streams (http://bit.ly/7kZ3Fy)?
13:03	jcromartie	that's it really
13:03	osirisx11	rlwrap not found
13:04	jcromartie	oh, I use rlwrap
13:04	jcromartie	you should install it :)
13:04	osirisx11	just installed it
13:04	jcromartie	it makes things without readline much more pleasant to interact with
13:04	osirisx11	now getting Classnotfound on clojure.lang.Repl
13:04	osirisx11	lol
13:04	hiredman	osirisx11: use the dirt simple setup
13:04	osirisx11	i should forget the binary install from ubuntu repos i think
13:04	osirisx11	ok thanks hiredman
13:04	hiredman	it does not advocate using deprecated classes
13:05	jcromartie	oh?
13:05	hiredman	like Repl and SCript
13:05	osirisx11	any idea why they skip VII?
13:05	jcromartie	I didn't know those were deprecated
13:05	hiredman	they are
13:05	jcromartie	osirisx11: VII is for older JVMs
13:05	hiredman	clojure.main is better and has been around forever now
13:05	jcromartie	ah
13:05	jcromartie	man
13:05	jcromartie	the docs are all over the place out tehre
13:05	jcromartie	there
13:05	hiredman	this is why I said ditch the script
13:05	jcromartie	not the official docs
13:06	alexyk	I reduce a lazy seq, dumping intermediate results every N elements. I need to dump the remainder as well. One way to do it is to append a terminating element to the seq. How is it done so laziness is preserved? The seq is coming from a database...
13:07	Chousuke	concat is lazy
13:07	alexyk	Chousuke: how about conj?
13:07	osirisx11	oh man i am running open source java
13:07	osirisx11	i should be using the sun version, shouldn't i?
13:07	hiredman	openjdk is fine
13:07	osirisx11	ok cool
13:07	hiredman	gcj is not
13:07	Chousuke	alexyk: that one's not.
13:07	alexyk	ok
13:07	Chousuke	alexyk: but you can do (concat yourseq [terminator])
13:08	alexyk	good, thx
13:08	osirisx11	well the version num isn't matching for this dirt simple instructions though.. what is java ver 7.4 for openjdk?
13:08	hiredman	osirisx11: what does java -version say?
13:09	osirisx11	doh.. i..had a typo.. i'm at 1.6.. i'll keep following dirt simple
13:10	osirisx11	i've been up all night heh
13:13	osirisx11	bah
13:13	osirisx11	i can't get this
13:13	osirisx11	anyone looking for a small closure side job? :D
13:13	osirisx11	i'll paypal
13:15	jcromartie	you're not far off
13:15	jcromartie	it's just a matter of getting all of the jars on the classpath and then loading the lib and running (main)
13:16	jcromartie	do you have all of the Postgres stuff set up?
13:17	osirisx11	i dont have time to learn and do all this stuff
13:17	osirisx11	i do appreciate all the help, everyone
13:18	jcromartie	sure
13:18	osirisx11	but i am giving up on it for now
13:18	osirisx11	if anyone wants to help me for pay, pm me
13:20	lypanov	starbucks? :D :P
13:22	wilig	technomancy: http://github.com/wilig/swank-clojure
13:23	technomancy	wilig: excellent! I'll try to merge that in later today.
13:24	wilig	let me know how it works for ya. And code pointers would be graciously received. :-)
13:25	technomancy	sure thing
13:34	lypanov	do it.
13:34	lypanov	end of line spacing or just general style complaints?
13:35	Raynes	How would I zip two sequences together?
13:35	chouser	technomancy: I sympathize. :-)
13:35	lypanov	technomancy: my coworkers would hate you. i would love ya.
13:35	lypanov	well, first they will hate me, when i tell them we're switching from ruby to clojure.
13:35	Raynes	Like (zip [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) should yield (1 4 2 5 3 6).
13:35	lypanov	:))
13:35	chouser	,(interleave [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
13:35	clojurebot	(1 4 2 5 3 6)
13:36	Raynes	That'll do it.
13:36	Raynes	Thanks.
13:36	chouser	np
13:36	jcromartie	,(let [required [:foo :bar] x {:foo 1}] (every? x required))
13:36	clojurebot	false
13:37	jcromartie	,(let [required [:foo :bar] x {:foo 1}] (filter (fn [k] (not (x k))) required))
13:37	clojurebot	(:bar)
13:37	jcromartie	handy for web parameters :)
13:45	lypanov	yo LauJensen
13:45	LauJensen	Hey heey
13:45	lypanov	LauJensen: /me has arch running on his ibook now
13:46	technomancy	lypanov: mostly trailing whitespace and extra-long lines
13:46	technomancy	also mixing tabs and spaces
13:46	lypanov	all evil. i'd say enable.
13:47	technomancy	lypanov: http://www.emacswiki.org/pics/static/TabsSpacesBoth.png
13:47	LauJensen	lypanov: So are we enemies now, or are you liking it? :)
13:47	the-kenny	I thinkg highlight80+ should be enabled by default
13:48	the-kenny	s/kg/k/
13:49	LauJensen	highlight 80+ is nice, but should it be 100 nowadays? :)
13:49	the-kenny	I use 80
13:50	the-kenny	Maybe 100 is fine too
13:50	LauJensen	I remember trying to enforce the 80c rule on a PHP team once, they objected strongly because of SQL statements... of course ClojureQL fixes that for us
13:51	chouser	80
13:51	hiredman	typographically speaking the optiminal characters per line is somewhere around 60, so 80 splits the difference with 100
13:51	the-kenny	It's almost impossible to enforce the 80 rule with Java or so. But it's really easy in Lisp, in my opinion
13:52	LauJensen	Also very doable in ASM
13:52	the-kenny	heh
13:54	lypanov	LauJensen: loving it. excellent distro.
13:54	LauJensen	Glad to hear it :)
13:54	lypanov	didn't get any time whatsoever to play with clojure itself though yet.
13:54	lypanov	ppc archlinux isn't quite as easy as x86
13:55	LauJensen	Takes about 2 minz to install though
13:55	technomancy	with 80 cols you can have two side-by-side windows on a reasonably-sized laptop without squinting
13:55	lypanov	LauJensen: totalled 6 hours yesterday for me.
13:55	LauJensen	oh... I spoke to soon :)
13:55	lypanov	LauJensen: biggest complication, couldn't find a ethernet cable.
13:55	lypanov	ended up setting up network sharing via firewire.
13:55	chouser	technomancy: exactly
13:55	lypanov	trivial in the end.
13:56	lypanov	second complication, i installed twice. first time i missed out the "mount your partitions step"... reboot. and blank drives. everything was in the unionfs ;)
13:56	LauJensen	hehe
13:56	Licenser	I don't really see the reason for the 80c rule any more, screens are so big that it often is totally annoying if code only uses 1/3rd of it - at least to me
13:57	chouser	I suppose an editor with sufficiently smart wrap/autoindent functionality could eliminate the need for width restrictions, but I've never seen such a thing.
13:57	hiredman	Licenser: the point is you have multiple columns of code
13:57	technomancy	Licenser: you want to carry a 23-inch monitor with you on the subway? =)
13:58	Licenser	technomancy: I mostly use 25" ones for the subway, the 23" screens are not handy to beat people of the chairs with
13:58	LauJensen	chouser: Wouldn't be too tricky to do in Emacs
13:58	Licenser	they just don't pack the punch
13:58	technomancy	hehe
13:58	Licenser	hiredman: but why 80c then and not 'whatever fits your screen best'
13:59	hiredman	Licenser: because everyones screen is different
13:59	hiredman	if you know everything is going to be 80 columns you can adjust your setup until you get a nice fit for 80 columns
14:00	hiredman	two, three, or four side by side
14:00	lypanov	agreed
14:01	lypanov	i do prefer 100ish though.
14:06	lypanov	LauJensen: and now, together with using awesome as my wm, i no longer need anything other than a netbook..
14:07	jcromartie	I downloaded clojure-1.1.0 and when I run it I get Clojure 1.0.0-
14:08	hiredman	where did you download it from
14:08	jcromartie	clojure.org
14:09	jcromartie	hmm, apparently it comes with a 1.0.0 jar
14:09	jcromartie	running ant results in a 1.1.0 jar
14:09	lypanov	oops
14:10	hiredman	jcromartie: works for me
14:10	hiredman	where on clojure.org?
14:10	hiredman	how did you start clojure?
14:10	jcromartie	or rather http://code.google.com/p/clojure/downloads/list
14:10	hiredman	do you have a different clojure.jar on your classpath?
14:10	jcromartie	started with java -cp and the path to clojure.jar
14:10	jcromartie	perhaps
14:11	jcromartie	hmm, no, no $CLASSPATH
14:11	jcromartie	I'm setting up clojure on a server
14:11	hiredman	I grabbed the zip and the clojure.jar inside is 1.1.0
14:11	jcromartie	hmm weird
14:12	jcromartie	not sure what happened then
14:12	lypanov	evil proxy conspiring against you!
14:13	konr	What was the list-length function called?
14:13	jcromartie	count
14:13	konr	jcromartie: thanks!
14:14	jcromartie	yay I'm good for something!
14:15	konr	haha
14:34	Hali_303	how to launch REPL giving it a directory of Java classes that I can import in REPL?
14:34	the-kenny	Hali_303: Read about the classpath
14:34	the-kenny	(java -cp)
14:35	Hali_303	the-kenny: thanks
14:36	the-kenny	Leiningen is just awesome
14:39	mitchellh	Hali_303: Here is a simple bash script if you need something quick and fast: http://gist.github.com/280294
14:39	mitchellh	oh wait dead link one sec
14:40	mitchellh	Hali_303: http://gist.github.com/280295
14:42	the-kenny	You can also use M-x swank-clojure-project if you're using emacs
14:43	LauJensen	~swank-clojure
14:54	wooby	anyone recall off hand that function that returns a swing window showing a value's structure?
14:58	mabes	wooby: you mean clojure.inspector? http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.inspector-api.html
14:58	wooby	mabes: exactly what i was looking for, thank you
15:00	mabes	np
15:09	Hali_303	I'm using the maven goal clojure:repl, however, if I specify a replScript parameter, maven exists after running the script instead of starting the REPL, any idea on this?
15:12	alexyk	can I "break" out of a reduce on a condition inside fn?
15:13	alexyk	I mean I can feed it pairs (keepgoing,realval) and eff with the keepgoing global from within fn...
15:14	alexyk	but then FPistas will ostracize me
15:14	ynniv	the idea of "break" is not functional
15:14	ynniv	thats why clojure has lazy sequences
15:15	ynniv	you keep processing them until you've had enough
15:15	ynniv	thats kind of like "break"
15:15	alexyk	ynniv: use case. reduce wrks with a humongous seq of days. Test runs must be limited to N days. In advance, we don't know how much of a seq to take.
15:15	the-kenny	This reminds me a bit of monads
15:15	ynniv	alexyk: yeah... there's no way to force something like that to break
15:15	alexyk	Or, how do we tell reduce it had enough when the fn sees a terminating case inside an element?
15:16	alexyk	ynniv: see, FP dogma breaks.
15:16	ynniv	yes, it does... thats why most useful systems aren't only FP :)
15:16	LauJensen	alexyk: if you saw my Reddit Scraper it kinda breaks :)
15:17	alexyk	LauJensen: didn't see it, how do you solve this?
15:17	ynniv	I would write your own reduce that checks the time after each iteration and stops appropriately
15:17	LauJensen	http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2010/01/hadoop-feeding-reddit-to-hadoop/
15:17	LauJensen	alexyk: Have a look, the code is posted there
15:17	ynniv	the other method is to dispatch to a thread and kill it if it times out
15:18	alexyk	LauJensen: ok
15:18	alexyk	ynniv: killing things is overkill, I'd prefer a zen approach :)
15:19	ynniv	hmm, i kind of think that killing the thread is more zen...
15:19	ynniv	its certainly more FP-like than a break equiv
15:19	Chousuke	alexyk: you might try a hybrid approach
15:20	Chousuke	alexyk: write a reduce-some function tht reduces a subseq of the sequence, then returns the result and the rest of the sequence
15:20	Chousuke	alexyk: then use that in a procedure that determines whether it should keep going.
15:20	Raynes	I has parseded XML in Clojurez.
15:21	Chousuke	alexyk: the point is not to avoid side-effects, but to keep them clearly separated from functional code :)
15:21	Chousuke	or well, the point IS to avoid side-effects, but you can't always do that :P
15:22	ynniv	Chousuke: yes, knowing exactly where side effects happen is important
15:22	alexyk	Chousuke: promising. So I have a predicate (day twit) which tells me which day is this twit from. Upon the day change, a summary stats must be run; also the thing must be limitable to N days, and the end of sequence must force day change anyways. Indeed it looks like it needs a special-case reduce.
15:23	alexyk	hiredman: how do I locate source for reduce again?
15:24	alexyk	i.e. reduce must do take-while on the seq
15:24	Chousuke	if you want to do it the quick and lazy way, then (defn reduce-some [seq n] [(reduce (take n seq)) (drop n seq)])
15:24	alexyk	Chousuke: day is hidden inside elements, so I can't know n in advance
15:25	alexyk	I can break them as soon as I fetch them
15:25	alexyk	but I fetch them lazily from mongodb
15:25	Chousuke	does it matter if you reduce a bit too much? :/
15:25	Chousuke	i guess you could just use take-while and drop-while instead
15:25	alexyk	Chousuke: it matters as each day is about 2M twits and I want tests to run fast.
15:26	hiredman	you could, you know, not use reduce if what you are doing is not what reduce does
15:26	Chousuke	alexyk: well, if you do the reducing in chunks of 1000, it's not going to be that bad.
15:26	hiredman	I really don't know why you keep insisting on a round peg in a square hole
15:27	Chousuke	hiredman: isn't collecting stats from a sequence fundamentally a reduction? :P
15:27	alexyk	hiredman: I do everything with map and reduce :) But I guess this is the case where a special-case function with recur and accumulator may be just what the Dr. ordered
15:27	hiredman	Chousuke: but if what he wants to do does match what reduce does (early termination) why shoe horn it into reduce?
15:28	Chousuke	well, the early termination is handled with take-while and drop-while I guess.
15:29	alexyk	I'd have to change the condition for -while's, so reduce would be driven by a manager anyways
15:35	jcromartie	should I be able to access a var defined in another namespace?
15:35	ynniv	alexyk: (use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils) (source reduce)
15:35	jcromartie	like if I have a lib, foo, with foo.clj doing (def bar :whatever)
15:35	chouser	jcromartie: only if you're 'use'd or 'require'd that namespace
15:35	jcromartie	hmm
15:35	alexyk	ynniv: thx
15:36	the-kenny	alexyk: Or in Emacs: M-.
15:36	jcromartie	tried that
15:36	the-kenny	It'll take you to the source of the function in Emacs
15:36	jcromartie	I have foo.clj and foo/access.clj
15:36	jcromartie	and access.clj (:require foo)
15:36	jcromartie	but I get "no such var" on foo/bar
15:37	alexyk	the-kenny: ok
15:37	Chousuke	jcromartie: are the namespaces really named like that? :p
15:37	jcromartie	no
15:38	Chousuke	if the require succeeds then it should work
15:38	Chousuke	you're not using any shorthand for the namespace in access.clj, are you?
15:39	jcromartie	which namespace?
15:39	jcromartie	in foo.clj I am doing (:use [foo.access :as access])
15:39	Chousuke	eg. if the namespace you've :required is foo.bar then you need to say foo.bar/var
15:40	jcromartie	hmm, no access.clj does (:require foo)
15:40	hiredman	that looks like a cyclical dependency
15:40	alexyk	what's the idiom to recur on a parameters elems depending on whether it's x & xs or not?
15:40	alexyk	elems is the trailing parameter out of many
15:41	Chousuke	(if (seq elems) (recur elems) (something when no elems left))?
15:41	jcromartie	hiredman: yeah it is
15:42	hiredman	jcromartie: don't do that
15:42	jcromartie	yeah
15:42	Chousuke	heh.
15:42	jcromartie	I should let foo/access.clj handle its own refs
15:42	alexyk	Chousuke: I mean the whole idiom from breaking elems to x & xs to recur; so I'd have to do (let [[x & xs] elems ...] <ahead of your stuff)) right?
15:43	Chousuke	alexyk: ah. I guess so.
15:43	Chousuke	usually it's the function parameters that are structured so, though
15:43	alexyk	in ocaml/haskell I could pattern-match on top of the function body, but if I have may parame I guess I can't do that by arity...
15:44	jcromartie	I'm wondering if I shouldn't be passing around an application instance object
15:44	alexyk	Chousuke: so would I have parameters as [a b c x & xs]?
15:44	jcromartie	something like a ref with the various bits of state
15:44	jcromartie	that would be smart
15:44	jcromartie	then I can encapsulate saving and loading it, etc.
15:46	Chousuke	alexyk: hm
15:47	alexyk	Chousuke: a b c etc. are accumulators and static limits; x & xs are elems.
15:48	alexyk	I.e. if the number of preceding things is fixed, can I do the breaking in the parameter list?
15:48	Chousuke	then it'd go something like (fn [a b c [x & xs]] (if (seq xs) (recur a b x xs) ...))
15:49	Chousuke	a b c* for the recur
15:49	alexyk	right.
15:49	Chousuke	you can also do it with let, but that's your choice
15:50	Chousuke	one common idiom is to have an inner function do the walking for you, so that you don't need to pass the static things to recur
15:50	alexyk	Chousuke: but when you said the fn is usually structured for x & xs, did you mean [x & xs] as above in the params?
15:51	alexyk	Chousuke: and the inner is defined in a (let walker (fn [a b c [x & xs]] ... (walker a b c elems))?
15:52	Chousuke	eg (fn [a b c elems] (letfn [(dostuff [acc [x & xs]] (recur (+ a b c x acc) xs))] (dostuff 0 elems)))
15:52	alexyk	ah! letfn
15:52	Chousuke	let works too
15:53	Chousuke	the point is the inner function doesn't need to take the statics as parameters because it can just close over them :)
15:53	alexyk	Chousuke: so the inner sees the outer's vals
15:53	Chousuke	yes.
15:53	alexyk	and clojures over them :)
15:53	Chousuke	c:P
15:54	Chousuke	clojuring over a function sounds weird.
15:54	alexyk	that's a good point to ask, " do you remember what the language you're programming in is called"? :)
15:54	Chousuke	We need some new closure-like object in Clojure so that we can say that something forms a clojure.
15:55	alexyk	yeah
15:58	alexyk	letfn allows, instead of a let's pair: name (fn [params] exprs), write (name [params] exprs), possibly many, and then have a body inside same [], vs let's name val pairs inside [] and then body, right?
15:58	alexyk	I sense a discrepancy: (let [...] body) vs (letfn [.....])?
15:59	alexyk	i.e. (letfn [.... body])?
15:59	alexyk	no that's not right
16:00	Chousuke	(letfn [(fnname [args] body)*] body)
16:00	alexyk	(doc letfn) is confusing: ([fnspecs & body])
16:00	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body. fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+)"
16:01	alexyk	ha, (doc ...) triggered clojurebot
16:01	alexyk	(doc google)
16:01	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:01	Chousuke	that's not too weird
16:01	alexyk	,(doc google)
16:01	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:01	ynniv	don't forget that you can rebind global vars for the duration of a scope
16:01	Chousuke	fnspecs is the vector containing fns and body is the body
16:02	ynniv	so global variables aren't as "bad" in clojure as in C or java
16:02	somnium	hmm, letfn* is a special form, is there more to it than a shortcut for (let [f (fn f* ...)])?
16:02	alexyk	Chousuke: so those []s are the params to the letfn
16:02	scode	Hmmm. WHat would be the idiomatic equivalent of (read-line) that takes a reader rather than using in? (I know I can rebind in)
16:03	ynniv	scode: heh, i was going to suggest rebinding in :)
16:03	polypus	ynniv: in java there are lots of global variables, which aren't frowned upon. they're called classes :)
16:03	scode	ynniv: ;)
16:05	ynniv	polypus: well... sure. they're still messy because a different thread can access them, and if someone overwrites them temporarily they won't necessarily restore the original value at the appropriate time
16:05	ynniv	but (binding [varname value] ...) does exactly this
16:05	Chousuke	binding is dangerous too, sometimes
16:06	ynniv	hmm. how so?
16:06	Chousuke	especially when laziness is involved
16:06	Chousuke	,(binding [+ -] (for [x (range 10)] (+ x 5))
16:06	clojurebot	EOF while reading
16:06	Chousuke	,(binding [+ -] (for [x (range 10)] (+ x 5)))
16:06	clojurebot	(5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14)
16:06	Chousuke	,(binding [+ -] (doall (for [x (range 10)] (+ x 5))))
16:06	clojurebot	(5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14)
16:07	Chousuke	hmm
16:07	ynniv	heh
16:07	Chousuke	gah
16:07	somnium	I think + is inlined on 2 args :P
16:07	Chousuke	bad example again
16:07	Chousuke	yesh
16:07	Chousuke	I always forget that
16:07	Chousuke	,(binding [+ -] (doall (for [x (range 10)] (+ x 6 5))))
16:07	clojurebot	(-11 -10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2)
16:07	Chousuke	,(binding [+ -] (for [x (range 10)] (+ x 6 5)))
16:07	clojurebot	(11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20)
16:07	Chousuke	there.
16:07	ynniv	i see where you're going tho - if a computation is returned outside your binding, the binding won't apply when its evaluated
16:07	Chousuke	yeah
16:08	Chousuke	and inlining further complicates things, as it makes binding completely ineffective ;/
16:08	alexyk	can lambda fn hace a docstring?
16:09	alexyk	have
16:09	Chousuke	no.
16:09	_fogus	yes
16:09	alexyk	discord!
16:09	Chousuke	not yet, anyway
16:09	Chousuke	since fns don't support metadata
16:09	alexyk	and those defined by letfn are plain fn's?
16:09	Chousuke	yes.
16:09	jcromartie	ooh, even better...
16:10	Chousuke	wait, wtf.
16:10	jcromartie	,(filter (complement {:foo :bar}) [:bat :baz])
16:10	clojurebot	(:bat :baz)
16:11	Chousuke	hm, got confused about nothing for a moment
16:11	Chousuke	(it wasn't about fogus leaving)
16:11	alexyk	was it a _fogus from the future where fn's have docstrings?
16:12	Chousuke	well, you can always do (def #^{:doc "somestuff"} foo (fn ...))
16:12	Chousuke	but that's not the fn that has a docstring :)
16:12	alexyk	nah, a comment will do
16:13	jcromartie	is 'future' a decent general-purpose way to do something in a separate thread?
16:13	Chousuke	probably.
16:13	Chousuke	if you don't care about the result, just don't store a reference to the future
16:14	jcromartie	yeah
16:14	jcromartie	I've used things like (doto (Thread. (fn [] ...)) .start) before but it seems easier to just use future
16:14	Chousuke	that's basically what future does anyway
16:15	jcromartie	right
16:15	hiredman	future uses a threadpool
16:15	jcromartie	well then that's one more point for future
16:15	hiredman	indeed
16:18	alexyk	so in an if/when condition (boolean), (seq elems) is exactly the same as (not (empty? elems))?
16:20	chouser	alexyk: yep
16:21	chouser	alexyk: empty? is defined at (not (seq coll)) :-)
16:21	alexyk	:)
16:25	AWizzArd	Do we have experts in Open Source licenses here?
16:25	AWizzArd	I would like to know in very short words the differences between 1) Apache Licence 2, 2) Eclipse Public License and 3) Mozilla Public License 1.1
16:28	Chousuke	AWizzArd: wikipedia probably knows :P
16:28	janmejay	Hi, i used swank-clojure elpa install and got it working, but i can't get my old SBCL repl now. here is the error (Couldn't load "/home/janmejay/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-20091016/swank-loader.lisp": file does not exist.)
16:28	janmejay	any ideas?
16:29	the-kenny	janmejay: You have to install the sbcl-swank-backend
16:29	janmejay	i tried loading autoloads file from clojure and swank-clojure from the elpa directory without package.el, which didn't work either(i was using slime HEAD)
16:29	the-kenny	with asdf
16:29	janmejay	the-kenny: from elpa?
16:29	the-kenny	no
16:29	the-kenny	elpa only contains emacs lisp files
16:30	the-kenny	you need a common lisp file with the necessary code to run swank in sbcl
16:30	AWizzArd	Chousuke: yes right :-)
16:32	janmejay	the-kenny: i have slime HEAD and i tried preloading it, and then loading clojure-mode and swank-clojure by adding directories in load-path and loading the autoload files, but that doesn't work either(all that loads in sbcl repl)
16:32	janmejay	the-kenny: M-- M-x slime RET clojure RET doesn't work with that setup
16:33	the-kenny	janmejay: You need to understand that the "real" slime distribution ships with a bunch of .lisp files which contain the backend (swank) for many common lisp derivates
16:33	the-kenny	janmejay: The elpa-version only ships emacs-lisp files
16:33	the-kenny	You have to install the backend for sbcl by hand
16:34	janmejay	the-kenny: is the best way to do it is dumping it inside the elpa slime directory?
16:34	the-kenny	maybe.. but I would install it with asdf-install
16:34	the-kenny	asdf-install is the packet manager for common lisp
16:34	janmejay	the-kenny: sure, i let me try it using asdf
16:35	the-kenny	janmejay: http://www.cliki.net/Swank
16:36	the-kenny	janmejay: Everything should be in a checkout from the slime cvs
16:40	Chousuke	technomancy: proto-skynet
16:40	ohpauleez	hahaha
16:42	alexyk	how can I have two optional parameters, like [a & b c]?
16:42	Chousuke	alexyk: you can use destructuring, but overloading on arity is more common
16:43	technomancy	if you want them to default to nil and don't mind losing arity checks, destructuring is the way to go
16:44	Chousuke	eg. (defn foo ([a] (foo a 0)) ([a b] (foo a 0 1)) ([a b c] (someop a b c)))
16:44	Chousuke	oops
16:45	Chousuke	should be (foo a b 1) in the middle and (foo a 0 1) in the first :P
16:45	alexyk	right, I have a huge body and these things are optional, so destructuring will do
16:45	alexyk	but I'll remember arity, hard to divine a ( after function name! Java flashback!
16:46	alexyk	Jeopardy $200 questionL in which Lisp-like language, there's an opening paren after a function name?
16:46	chouser	dylan
16:47	alexyk	chouser: am not familiar with the language dylan... is it a lisp with inverted syntax?
16:47	Chousuke	also common lisp :P
16:47	Chousuke	you didn't specify what it's for.
16:47	qbg	alexyk: Javascript?
16:47	Chousuke	(defun foo (a b c) ...), isn't it.
16:47	chouser	dylan is generally considered lisp like, but with more C-ish syntax. I don't know much else about it.
16:47	Chousuke	I think dylan actually has macros
16:48	alexyk	qbg: well... :)
16:48	Chousuke	but I have no idea how they're implemented.
16:49	danm_	learn to let go of syntax and be happy
16:50	somnium	javascript should stand as a warning to all who would try to 'fix' lisp's syntax
16:52	alexyk	so if I want 3 totally optional params, I declare (defn foo [& [a b c]] ...)?
16:52	chouser	alexyk: that's one way.
16:52	arj	is there a shorter way to write (not (= X Y))?
16:52	qbg	(not= x y)
16:52	chouser	alexyk: another is (defn foo ([] (foo nil nil nil)) ([a] (foo a nil nil)) ([a b] (foo a b nil)) ...)
16:52	arj	qbg: thanks :)
16:53	alexyk	chouser: I'll stick to the first :)
16:53	chouser	alexyk: :-)
16:54	chouser	alexyk: the second may be better when you have: non-nil defaults, defaults in a different order, or need maximum speed.
16:54	alexyk	chouser: ok
16:55	chouser	alexyk: but if you just need default-to-nil in the normal order, yes destructuring is much tidier.
16:56	alexyk	I actually may need to flip order, so may come in handy
16:56	chouser	also note I said "may" -- it may also be easier to just destructure and fiddle with order or non-nil defaults. just depends
17:01	Raynes	How would I map a function to all of the values in a map?
17:02	chouser	(zipmap (keys m) (map f (vals m)))
17:02	kotarak	(zipmap (keys the-map) (map f (vals the-map)
17:02	Raynes	Thanks. :D
17:02	kotarak	hehe :)
17:02	kotarak	chouser: m was shorter. I wasted time on the-map. ;)
17:02	chouser	heh. yep.
17:05	hiredman	are keys and vals guaranteed to always return keys and values in the same order?
17:05	chouser	for the very same map, sure.
17:06	chouser	once you insert something, you have a new map with a new order
17:06	arj	has anyone seen this kind of error before? my repl gets completely filled with endless of these messages and then stops. I can't seem to see where it all starts: http://pastebin.com/m73da1552
17:06	Raynes	http://gist.github.com/280420 yayme!
17:06	chouser	since the map is immutable it would have to work pretty hard get different orderings out of it.
17:07	chouser	arj: hm, infinite recursion
17:07	hiredman	chouser: yes, but that is a by product of the implementation of map, not part of the contract of keys and vals
17:07	arj	chouser: ok, I don't really do any recursion in my code as far as I know. Maybe in some code I'm calling
17:08	arj	any idea how I can figure out where it starts?
17:08	chouser	hiredman: I believe rhickey has said it's guaranteed
17:08	Hali_303	how to make functions cascadable? by that I mean if I have functions (test1 pred coll1) and (test2 pred coll2), how to have a "master function" that takes a predicate which is like fn [x y] (test-based-on-x-and-y) I hope you get what I mean :)
17:08	hiredman	ok
17:08	Hali_303	where x is bound to something in coll1 and y is bound to an element in coll2
17:09	rhickey	hiredman: yes, will always be same order. Not much utility otherwise
17:09	Hali_303	I mean something like a nested for loop with an if inside (in an imperative language)
17:10	rhickey	but might not be adequately documented
17:10	kotarak	Hali_303: (filter #(apply test-based-on-x-and-y %) (map vector coll1 coll2))?
17:11	chouser	Hali_303: 'for' can take multiple bindings and treat them like nested loops
17:11	chouser	,(for [a [1 2 3], b [10 11 12]] (+ a b))
17:11	clojurebot	(11 12 13 12 13 14 13 14 15)
17:11	Chousuke	hmm
17:12	Hali_303	ah I see, thank you
17:12	kotarak	,(filter #(apply = %) (map vector [3 2 1 0] [1 2 3 0]))
17:12	clojurebot	([2 2] [0 0])
17:13	chouser	Hali_303: kotarak's showing you how to walk two seqs "in step" if that's what you wanted instead.
17:14	Hali_303	thank you guys, I'll try to decode that :)
17:17	Raynes	How can I get all but the last element in a sequence?
17:18	lpetit	,(doc butlast)
17:18	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a seq of all but the last item in coll, in linear time"
17:18	Raynes	Thanks.
17:20	kotarak	Wow. It's surprising how far you can get with excluded =, and, or, not, ...
17:22	jcromartie	just for anybody else who might be using it
17:23	chouser	kotarak: excluded = ?
17:24	chouser	arj: are you using 'filter' in your code anywhere?
17:25	kotarak	chouser: (ns foo (refer-clojure :exclude (= not= < <= > >= not and or nil?))) And didn't have to change a line in ca. 80 lines of code.
17:25	chouser	oh! huh.
17:25	chouser	why? :-)
17:26	kotarak	Because non of these functions were used. :)
17:26	chouser	I mean, why would you want to exclude them? Why does it matter if they were used?
17:27	kotarak	chouser: I have to provide = and friends for a DSL. http://gitorious.org/clojureql/pages/FrontendReworked
17:27	chouser	ahh
17:27	kotarak	So I have to exclude the core ones.
17:28	kotarak	I don't want the query-= hack.
17:28	kotarak	I prefer query/=.
17:28	janmejay	the-kenny: thanks for the help
17:28	chouser	any users of the lib will have to exclude those as well, then, right?
17:28	the-kenny	You're welcome
17:29	kotarak	chouser: no. (ns user.namespace (:require [clojureql.query :as q])) (q/only (q/= :table/x 5) (q/from :table)).
17:29	chouser	ah! very good.
17:29	kotarak	Only if you :use clojureql, you have to exclude them probably.
17:29	chouser	yes
17:30	kotarak	I'm a bit undecided about verboseness, though....
17:33	Chousuke	hmm
17:33	Chousuke	if you're inside a namespace, can you do (def namespace/= ..)?
17:33	Chousuke	that would get around having to exclude core = etc.
17:34	kotarak	Chousuke: don't think so.
17:34	chouser	def doesn't let you give some other namespace
17:34	Chousuke	what if it's the namespace you're in?
17:35	chouser	It would be so easy to do that I assume the inability is intentional
17:35	Chousuke	hm
17:35	kotarak	In general I design my namespace for require with :as and not for :use. But I in this case... hmm...
17:35	Chousuke	it actually works.
17:35	Chousuke	I can do (def user/z 5) in the repl
17:36	chouser	yeah.
17:36	chouser	interesting.
17:36	Chousuke	useful, too
17:36	chouser	really?
17:36	kotarak	,(name (ns-name ns))
17:36	Chousuke	well, say you need to define your own seq in terms of clojure.core/seq :)
17:36	clojurebot	"sandbox"
17:36	kotarak	,(def sanbox/= 5)
17:36	clojurebot	DENIED
17:37	chouser	Chousuke: you still need to exclude core/seq from your own ns
17:37	chouser	Chousuke: at which point you can just (def seq ...)
17:37	Chousuke	are you sure, though?
17:37	Chousuke	couldn't you just do (defn myns/seq [...] (seq (weirdstuff))
17:37	chouser	(def user/map 1)
17:38	chouser	java.lang.IllegalStateException: map already refers to: #'clojure.core/map in namespace: user
17:38	Chousuke	hm, apparently not :( damn.
17:43	Hali_303	how to or a sequence of booleans? I've tried (reduce or coll) but that does not work
17:43	the-kenny	(apply or coll)?
17:43	chouser	nope
17:43	chouser	or is a macro
17:43	the-kenny	:(
17:43	the-kenny	oh, of course it is..
17:43	chouser	,(some identity [nil false 1 2])
17:44	clojurebot	1
17:44	chouser	nah, it's a natural mistake
17:44	chouser	once upon a time (apply or coll) would return code you could 'eval' to get your answer.
17:45	chouser	,(apply #'or [1 2 3])
17:45	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [or__4472__auto__ 1] (if or__4472__auto__ or__4472__auto__ (clojure.core/or 2 3)))
17:45	chouser	heh. don't do that.
17:48	the-kenny	isn't there apply-macro, whoch no one should ever use? :D
17:49	Chousuke	clojurebot has some feature creep
17:49	Hali_303	thanks, I've used (some true? coll) this work
17:50	Chousuke	,(true? 3)
17:50	clojurebot	false
17:50	chouser	Hali_303: sounds good, but not that doesn't behave the same as 'or'
17:50	chouser	note
17:50	kotarak	,(if 3 true false)
17:50	clojurebot	true
17:50	kotarak	,(or 3 false)
17:50	clojurebot	3
17:50	Hali_303	chouser: you mean in the sens of lazyness?
17:50	chouser	no, as kotarak is showing
17:51	Chousuke	Hali_303: true? only returns true if it's argument is the literal 'true'
17:51	Hali_303	ok, that's true, but I don't need that
17:51	kotarak	,(some true? [3 false])
17:51	clojurebot	nil
17:51	chouser	ok, good enough then.
17:51	Hali_303	I have a collection of trues and falses
17:54	hiredman	Chousuke: some?
17:54	Chousuke	hiredman: :P
17:58	seths	question on deftype... is it strange to use Object as the supertype when I only want to override methods from Object?
17:58	seths	e.g. (deftype Foo [bar] Object (toString [] (str (gndn bar))))
17:59	somnium	deftypes have supertypes?
17:59	seths	I'm probably mixing the terms up
18:00	seths	in Java-ese, extending Object
18:01	Chousuke	in deftype's case, Object is treated more as an interface rather than a class
18:02	kotarak	chouser: (ns user.space (:use [clojureql.query :as q :exclude (= not= < <= > >= not and or nil?)])) (only (q/= :table/x 5) (from :table)) Seems to a be a compromise.
18:02	seths	q2: I'm tempted to override the factory methods, but what type of thing should I return?
18:02	seths	(defn Foo [bar]
18:02	seths	(throw (Exception. "hola!")))
18:02	seths	that works as a proof of concept, but doesn't clue me in at all
18:03	Chousuke	I don't think you should do that :P
18:03	Chousuke	hmm
18:03	seths	chousuke: which? both?
18:03	Chousuke	maybe (def old-Foo Foo) (defn Foo [] (old-Foo .....))
18:04	ohpauleez	just a sort of poll, Am I the only one who likes error-kit more than the current try/except?
18:14	the-kenny	ohpauleez: I like it, however I haven't done very much with it yet - Just saw some code in clojure-couchdb
18:14	ohpauleez	ahh cool
18:17	ohpauleez	also, congrats chouser and fogus, ch 1 was great!
18:23	chouser	ohpauleez: great, thanks! fogus is in the process of revamping it right now, along with the rest that was released in the MEAP
18:24	ohpauleez	cool, once I get this bonus for my current contract, I plan on buying a copy
18:25	chouser	we're working on a "bundle" deal: the book + 1 year clojure funding. We'll see if that actually happens...
18:25	ohpauleez	that would be awesome, my bonus is basically going to bounties, clojure, and similar efforts
18:26	chouser	cool, that's a good idea
18:27	ohpauleez	I know how it goes, PyPy was always in that situation, so now that I have more contracts, it feels only natural to give it all
18:28	seths	chouser: I would definitely do the package deal
18:28	seths	and have already funded
18:36	seths	chousuke: no dice with old-Foo. I want to sometimes remap the input value of a factory argument before it winds up as the value of a field
18:37	seths	after old-Foo my Foo is immutable
18:37	seths	er foo
19:02	konr```	What should I use to turn HTML into XML? TagSoup?
19:02	ohpauleez	konr```: enlive
19:02	ohpauleez	it's based on TagSoup
19:03	ohpauleez	http://wiki.github.com/cgrand/enlive/
19:03	ohpauleez	it allows you to apply a template to html or xml to do transformations, exactly what you need
19:04	alexyk	is (or ...) always short-circuiting?
19:04	ohpauleez	alexyk: I would assume so
19:04	konr```	ohpauleez: looks great! thanks!
19:05	ohpauleez	konr```: totally welcome
19:09	tcrayford	is there any point to unit testing macros?
19:10	seths	chousuke: I r moron. sry.
19:17	alexyk	how do you load a .clj file into repl?
19:19	seths	ants.clj uses load-file
19:19	seths	,(doc load-file)
19:19	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
19:20	alexyk	thx!
19:20	seths	de nada
19:28	derrida	Hey guys, i've been trying to have a little fun with clojure but am having some trouble shifting emacs/slime to work alongside clojure. typing clj from teh commandline works fine, i set all my env. vars in that script and the repl inside SLIME does actually work and say it is clojure but there are problems and slime never connects: http://pastie.org/784097
19:29	derrida	if anyone had any ideas I would really appreciate it :) sorry this isn't exactly clojure specific
19:39	AWizzArd	Can there be conflicts when trying to use/require a NS? A conflict such as that there is more than one NS with the given name on the classpath?
19:39	replaca	alexyk: yes, or is always short-circuiting
19:40	alexyk	ok
19:43	jcromartie	AWizzArd: there won't be any conflicts when using require
19:43	jcromartie	use, however, imports all of the defs in the use'ed namespace
19:43	alexyk	technomancy: where did $RLWRAP go from lein??
19:44	AWizzArd	jcromartie: let's say I have the dirs X and Y in my CP. Both include a file z.clj which begins with (ns z ...). How will Clojure decide which lib it will load?
19:44	jcromartie	oh
19:44	jcromartie	that's not good
19:44	jcromartie	that's why you should make detailed namespaces
19:45	Raynes	How would I remove a key from a map?
19:45	hiredman	AWizzArd: just like java, what comes first on the classpath
19:45	hiredman	AWizzArd: also, don't use single segment names
19:46	jcromartie	AWizzArd: are these third-party namespaces? if so, you should point them out
19:46	AWizzArd	hiredman: and there is no way to enforce loading a specific lib in such a case?
19:46	jcromartie	maybe the authors could fix it
19:46	jcromartie	there's no way to load the "second" one, no
19:46	hiredman	AWizzArd: not that I am aware of
19:46	Raynes	Ah, dissoc.
19:46	AWizzArd	jcromartie: I don't have the problem, but was thinking about using a single word as my namespace
19:47	hiredman	AWizzArd: don't
19:47	jcromartie	a single unique word, like the name of your very uniquely named project, for instance, is probably OK
19:47	hiredman	jcromartie: no
19:47	jcromartie	but if your project is "utils" or "game" or "app" then no
19:47	jcromartie	hiredman: want to tell it to rhickey ?
19:47	jcromartie	:)
19:47	hiredman	you should not use a single segment namespace
19:47	jcromartie	compojure
19:48	hiredman	jcromartie: compojure is broken
19:48	AWizzArd	even if i use more complex names, it will then only make it more unlikely that there will be a collision, but it can never be guaranteed
19:48	hiredman	rhickey is the one that moved clojure to clojure.core
19:48	jcromartie	is it broken in any discernible way?
19:48	jcromartie	or is it broken because it breaks the rules?
19:48	jcromartie	hiredman: I thought clojure.main was a class
19:48	jcromartie	in clojure
19:48	jcromartie	a single-segment namespace
19:49	hiredman	jcromartie: you don't know what you talking about
19:49	jcromartie	but that's just an assumption
19:49	hiredman	classes are java constructs
19:49	hiredman	namespaces are clojure
19:49	hiredman	classes don't live in namespaces
19:49	jcromartie	right but packages/namespaces use roughly the same concepts in terms of paths
19:49	hiredman	and besides, the namespace is clojure.main, not a single segment namespace
19:50	jcromartie	OK
19:50	jcromartie	I'm just going off of the various projects I've seen
19:51	hiredman	jcromartie: I was sitting here in this irc channel when rhickey announced the switch in AOT compilation schemes that made single segment namespace inadvisable
19:51	jcromartie	I believe you
19:51	hiredman	when he renamed the clojure namespace to clojure.core
19:51	hiredman	none of those projects asked me
19:51	hiredman	or I would tell them the samething
19:51	hiredman	~namespaces
19:51	AWizzArd	hiredman: is there a strategy for handling conflicts with multi-segment namespaces?
19:51	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
19:51	alexyk	how do you specify the dependency on clojure and c.c. in a lein project?
19:51	hiredman	AWizzArd: the first on the classpath wins
19:52	AWizzArd	no java tricks to rename those beasts when starting up the jvm?
19:52	hiredman	nope
19:52	jcromartie	someone should document this on clojure.org
19:53	jcromartie	at least in a more conspicuous place
19:53	jcromartie	like here http://clojure.org/namespaces
19:53	jcromartie	but as far as I can tell it's not mentioned
19:53	jcromartie	and the practices demonstrated by community projects don't help
19:54	jcromartie	maybe a warning is in order
19:54	hiredman	very true
19:55	jcromartie	this seems to be the best explanation of it http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/8618a1d93cbbf8b7
19:56	hiredman	clojurebot: logs?
19:56	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
19:56	AWizzArd	Basically someone could invest a lot of his freetime to develop an incredibly useful library and then name the namespaces like org.apache and such ;-)
19:59	AWizzArd	Well, sounds like Sun is in the position to fix this, though it seems to be very unlikely to encounter such a problem.
19:59	alexyk	why did pom.xml for clojure-contrib stayed at 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT when clojure proper inc'ed?
20:05	jcromartie	AWizzArd: well, I think Java has a simple system for loading resources, and the people in here are advocating simple guidelines to avoid problems with that system.
20:05	jcromartie	now someone tell me why I can (use 'my.lib) but not (compile 'my.lib) :)
20:05	jcromartie	I have a classes directory
20:05	jcromartie	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException
20:06	alexyk	somnium: if I want to work with clojure 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT, should I build congomongo with it, i.e. have to edit project.clj?
20:06	somnium	alexyk: hmm, yes but cant guarantee ClojureDBObject wont break
20:08	somnium	alexyk: well, it shouldnt break, but will need to recompile the .clj files I think
20:08	alexyk	somnium: is db-object now a separate projetc?
20:08	alexyk	congomongo project.clj lists it as a dependency
20:09	lypanov	whats the best way to work on a linux gui in java nowadays?
20:09	somnium	alexyk: no I just suck at ant and maven so it was easier to compile the .java separately
20:09	alexyk	:)
20:10	jcromartie	speaking of compiling
20:11	jcromartie	trying to compile from the REPL is giving me problems, namely: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: my.company.ns$loading__6327__auto____24 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:12	jcromartie	if I say (use 'foo) it works, (compile 'foo) does not
20:12	hiredman	~compile
20:12	clojurebot	the unit of compilation in clojure is the namespace. namespaces are compiled (not files). to compile a namspace the namespace needs to be on the classpath and so does ./classes/ (and the directory needs to exist) because clojure writes the class files to that directory. http://clojure.org/compilation
20:12	jcromartie	and?
20:12	AWizzArd	jcromartie: you don't have the classes dir in your namespace
20:12	jcromartie	./classes/ exists
20:13	AWizzArd	it needs to be on your classpath
20:13	jcromartie	ah... I see
20:13	hiredman	jcromartie: so follow the instructions on the website
20:13	jcromartie	I must yield to the almighty classpath
20:13	hiredman	also, unless you need to
20:13	hiredman	I would recommend against aot compilation
20:14	Guest24347	is there a way to create a seq from an Iterator (without the Iterable)?
20:14	AWizzArd	just decide for any directory on your classpath and then (binding [compile-path "/home/jaycro/hg/com/example/any/dir/on/cp/"] (compile 'my.ns))
20:14	hiredman	you trade off the dynamic for almost no gain
20:14	hiredman	,(doc iterator-seq)
20:14	clojurebot	"([iter]); Returns a seq on a java.util.Iterator. Note that most collections providing iterators implement Iterable and thus support seq directly."
20:15	Guest29961	thx hiredman
20:16	jcromartie	hiredman: how about for deploying a web app?
20:16	jcromartie	source would work there, I suppose
20:16	hiredman	jcromartie: for compojure you do need to compile a Servlet class
20:16	jcromartie	ah
20:17	hiredman	so you will need to compile
20:17	jcromartie	right now I'm running my web app from a REPL
20:17	jcromartie	even on the server
20:18	jcromartie	but it's very much under active development :P
20:18	chouser	even if you AOT compile with gen-class, you can still load new method implementations on the fly
20:19	hiredman	I am not that familiar with compojure's internals so I am not sure wha the minimum you need to compile is
20:40	Raynes	I wish I had known 45 minutes ago that Twitter blocks duplicate tweets. Would have saved me 45 minutes of trying to find a non-existent bug in my code.
20:56	janjan	i'm getting a bit confused with the import/use/refer functions
20:56	janjan	is there one that allows me to
20:56	janjan	use a java static method as a function in my namespace?
20:57	hiredman	no
20:57	hiredman	methods, static or otherwise, are not fns
20:57	janjan	bummer
20:58	qbg	What do you need it for?
20:58	hiredman	but, I imagine you are just confusing your terms
20:58	albino	can't he call it whether it's a clojure function or not?
20:58	hiredman	if you want to, for example call the static method shuffle from java.util.Collections
20:59	janjan	I wanted to import org.apache.commons.lang.StringUtils.Join as Join
20:59	hiredman	,(import 'java.util.Collections)
20:59	clojurebot	java.util.Collections
20:59	hiredman	,(import 'java.util.ArrayList)
20:59	clojurebot	java.util.ArrayList
20:59	janjan	yea, importing the class works
21:00	janjan	but I don't need all of it, and I thought it would save me some typing
21:00	qbg	If you wanted to do that for enough static methods, you could write a macro
21:00	hiredman	,(let [a (doto (ArrayList.) (.add :a) (.add :b))] (Collections/shuffle a) a)
21:00	clojurebot	#<ArrayList [:b, :a]>
21:00	janjan	need to use the :as thing I guess
21:00	hiredman	no
21:00	hiredman	use and requre are not for java classes
21:00	hiredman	require
21:00	janjan	ow
21:01	hiredman	import is for java classes
21:01	janjan	guess I missed that part
21:01	janjan	thx
21:01	janjan	I thought they were more or less interchangeable
21:01	hiredman	nope
21:02	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(Collections/shuffle a))
21:02	clojurebot	(. Collections shuffle a)
21:02	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(.foo a))
21:02	clojurebot	(. a foo)
21:03	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(foo. a))
21:03	clojurebot	(new foo a)
21:34	defn	hello all
21:35	defn	,(macroexpand-1 (
21:35	clojurebot	EOF while reading
22:00	wilig	hmm, now I've got no excuse not to start my project. swank-clojure was a nice distraction.
22:07	alexyk	technomancy: ping
22:22	alexyk	how do I print classpath in repl?
22:23	hiredman	classpath?
22:23	clojurebot	classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
22:24	chouser	that's one of them, anyway.
22:47	alexyk	how do I tell lein to ise a specific version of clojure? it seems not respecting it
22:48	chouser	alexyk: do you mean when you launch a repl using it?
22:48	alexyk	yep
22:49	chouser	I haven't tried lien yet, but I think I've heard that for the repl it uses the clojure that came with it.
22:49	chouser	Or something. Does that make any sense?
22:49	defn	alexyk: you can specify a different version of clojure by changing the dependencies entry for it
22:49	defn	and then running lein deps
22:50	alexyk	defn: is not respected
22:50	defn	so you've changed it with no results?
22:50	alexyk	yep
22:50	defn	from what to what
22:50	alexyk	I see CLOJURE_JAR hardcoded in lein
22:51	alexyk	which it's using for itself
22:51	defn	i remember tricking it awhile back into using 1.1.0 by just overwriting .clojure/... with the newest version, same name as the old
22:51	defn	you could change that env var in the script i suppose as well
22:52	defn	but lately i seem to remember just setting the dep to a more recent version and then running lein deps
22:52	derrida	i'm struggling witht his too
22:52	defn	that gave me the most recent version in a swank session
22:52	defn	derrida: that's because you are named derrida
22:52	derrida	;>
22:52	defn	everything will be inherently more complex for you as a result
22:52	derrida	it's the story of my life :)
22:53	defn	I suggest changing your name to Foucault
22:53	defn	you might have a better experience ;)
22:53	derrida	his friend is my altnick ;>
22:53	defn	<chomsky> will probably have the best chance at solving problems in clojure
22:53	derrida	hahaha
22:54	defn	although it will likely involve a lot of mentions of hegemony, anarcho-syndicalism, etc.
22:54	defn	(defn anarcho-syndicalism)
22:57	derrida	when i start slime, it continuously polls ... swank? but never connects
22:57	defn	derrida: add :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.1.0"]] to your project.clj
22:57	defn	then run lein deps
22:59	derrida	defn: ahh project.clj, i kept seeing that as package.el for some reason :)
22:59	defn	:) did it work okay for you?
23:00	defn	hmmm, i need to implement an anarcho-syndicalism function with agents
23:00	derrida	hm
23:00	derrida	seems to have the same result
23:01	derrida	is there a systemwide project.clj?
23:01	defn	derrida: no
23:01	defn	derrida: pastie your project.clj somewhere and let me take a look
23:02	defn	i might step away for an hour, but ill take a look when i get back
23:02	derrida	my problems actually occur without a project.clj at all, when i start slime this is the output: http://pastie.org/784269
23:03	derrida	no problem i'll be here :)
23:03	derrida	i'll take the opportunity to grab food
23:03	defn	derrida: how are you starting slime
23:03	derrida	M-x slime
23:03	defn	ah okay, i thought you were running swank-clojure-project
23:03	defn	and then selecting the project root dir
23:04	defn	M-x swank-clojure-project
23:04	derrida	oh? :)
23:04	defn	are you using elpa?
23:04	derrida	yes
23:04	defn	do you have slime, slime-repl, swank-clojure, and clojure-mode installed?
23:04	derrida	yep
23:05	derrida	i removed everything emacs on my whole system in fact hehe
23:05	defn	hmmm, do you have a ~/.clojure/ dir?
23:05	derrida	yes, which is one confusing part of the whole thing for me
23:05	defn	brb derrida -- keep up the deconstruction until i get back
23:05	derrida	emacs wanted to install to ~/src
23:05	derrida	defn: ;)
23:06	derrida	I did M-x clojure-install ~/.clojure
23:06	derrida	which seemed to work :)
23:07	derrida	except that things arent really working hehe :)
23:13	joegg	I'm just getting started with clojure (and lisp) but not java or programming. Can anyone offer some suggestions on http://paste.lisp.org/display/93599?
23:13	joegg	I don't know agents and such yet, and will expand into that soon.
23:14	joegg	For now, I'm looking for even more basic things, like I just discovered if (instead of cond) a few minutes ago; and I'm not really thrilled with all the dotos.
23:15	joegg	The code above "(def spiro ..." is more library-ish, and the rest is using the very simple library.
23:21	technomancy	alexyk: that method of getting the classpath only gets you the classpath Java was launched with, not the classpath of the nested classloader
23:21	technomancy	alexyk: I need to document that better for the next release and include a function to get the nested classpath
23:22	technomancy	but you should be using the correct (project-level) version of clojure
23:22	alexyk	technomancy: forget classpath! how do I make lein respect clojure version from project.clj?! :)
23:23	alexyk	I get the prompt for Clojure 1.1.0 even when desirous of 1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
23:23	technomancy	derrida: M-x clojure-install is deprecated; see the swank-clojure readme
23:23	alexyk	the latter is dutifully moved into libs/ by lein deps
23:23	alexyk	yet the prompt is 1.1.0
23:23	technomancy	alexyk: oh... one further bug is that the lein repl task is the only one not to use the subclassloader
23:24	technomancy	tests, compilation, and launching the swank server should all work correctly
23:24	derrida	technomancy: i saw that but the readme's advice seemed a bit ..
23:24	technomancy	but there are issues with clojure.main not setting in correctly
23:24	alexyk	technomancy: are you saying I'm out of luck with repl?
23:24	alexyk	what if I hack git checkout to use 1.2.0...?
23:25	derrida	i'm using 1.2.0 now
23:25	alexyk	derrida: apaprently not in repl?
23:25	derrida	repl shows 1.2
23:25	alexyk	repl from lein repl?
23:25	derrida	only if i install manually htough
23:25	derrida	oh
23:25	derrida	sorry :)
23:26	technomancy	alexyk: it's easiest to use lein-swank or lein-ng
23:26	derrida	o O
23:26	derrida	this is really getting crazy
23:26	alexyk	an hour ago I could do work. Now I decided to upgrade clojure, contrib, and some deps, and it's a horrible mess since clojure people don't version by clojure version!
23:27	technomancy	you can't use clojure 1.2.0 with contrib right now
23:27	technomancy	since contrib is still compiled using 1.1.0 =\
23:28	alexyk	ah ok. So I'll rollback. Still, clojure people, do version by clojure version, please! :)
23:28	technomancy	yes
23:28	technomancy	=(
23:28	technomancy	contrib is a bit of a mess right now
23:29	hiredman	secretly?
23:29	derrida	i agree, there needs to be more seperation if it causing this.
23:29	technomancy	hiredman: don't tell anyone
23:29	alexyk	technomancy: lein hardcoded LEIN_JAR to $HOME/.m2/... and CLOJURE_JAR to same repo, not to the checkout!
23:29	alexyk	that's the bin/lein from git.
23:29	technomancy	alexyk: yes, that's the version of clojure that lein uses, not the version that your project is loaded with
23:30	alexyk	shouldn't LEIN_JAR point to the checkout?
23:30	technomancy	(except for the bug in the repl task as noted in the readme)
23:30	technomancy	oh, the checkout of leiningen?
23:30	alexyk	yeah
23:30	euwyn	working my way through the pragmatic bookshelf book. any suggestions on a good first clojure project. have some experience with functional languages (ml) from college, but rusty.
23:31	technomancy	alexyk: well the checkout of leiningen has its src/ on the classpath in front of LEIN_JAR, so it will take priority
23:31	derrida	what precedent does leiningen follow?
23:31	alexyk	technomancy: one massive problem remains: no respect for settings.xml
23:31	alexyk	my ~/.m2/settings.xml specify the repository in /opt/m2/repository
23:31	technomancy	alexyk: it's on the roadmap
23:32	alexyk	ok
23:32	derrida	it's hard to know what to equate it to, is it inteded to function like cabal?
23:32	alexyk	derrida: it's simply lipstick on a pig of maven
23:32	alexyk	clojure lipstick on a maven pig
23:33	derrida	i'm getting discouraged too :(
23:33	alexyk	it installs into maven repo and drags jars to a local libs/ to fool old-time tools
23:33	alexyk	I'm in fact encouraged and applaud technimancy
23:33	derrida	have you used cabal?
23:33	technomancy	derrida: it's a lot easier to write a package manager in a language that allows you to alter the load path at runtime
23:34	alexyk	derrida: not much better than CPAN for that matter
23:34	derrida	technomancy: i bet
23:34	alexyk	nothing wrong with maven, really :) and lein avoids XML, so it's just fine
23:34	derrida	cpan is pretty excellent
23:34	derrida	maven is just driving me mad
23:34	alexyk	it's the clojure people who should straighten up and version properly
23:35	technomancy	yes
23:35	technomancy	stuart is doing the right thing with the release of contrib 1.1.0, it's just taking a while
23:35	technomancy	since it's a 1-man volunteer show
23:35	derrida	well, the key to getting more volunteers is getting more users
23:35	alexyk	well, around the new year, I'm not surprised
23:36	derrida	if we can't use it we're not going to be able to contribute
23:36	alexyk	technomancy: so, to sum up, there's no quick and dirty way to force lein repl to behave?
23:36	technomancy	derrida: contrib has had a bit of an aristocratic vibe to it for a while
23:36	technomancy	alexyk: yeah, it's really hard to get a subclassloader working without screwing up in
23:36	alexyk	I'm on a paper deadline and to revive my Emacs with elscreen and sidebar would be too obssessive
23:36	technomancy	alexyk: have you tried nailgun?
23:37	technomancy	I think that should be more straightforward than swank
23:37	derrida	what is nailgun?
23:37	alexyk	technomancy: once or twice. Can I drive it from any editor?
23:37	derrida	similar to MrED?
23:37	alexyk	clojurebot: google java nailgun
23:37	clojurebot	First, out of 1820 results is:
23:37	clojurebot	Nailgun: Insanely Fast Java
23:37	clojurebot	http://martiansoftware.com/nailgun/index.html
23:38	derrida	that sounds interesting
23:38	technomancy	alexyk: vimclojure uses it, you can also use it with clojure-mode (without slime) by setting inferior-lisp-program
23:38	derrida	does vim-clojure work better than swank?
23:38	technomancy	never tried it
23:38	derrida	i'm more than happy to use vim for a while
23:38	derrida	damn
23:38	derrida	:)
23:39	hiredman	vimclojure has its own set of issues
23:39	derrida	i'm one of those sickos that likes both
23:40	derrida	so .. how are people writing clojure code? :)
23:40	technomancy	tbh swank-clojure is not great
23:40	derrida	not slime quality?
23:40	technomancy	I haven't been able to give it the attention it deserves
23:40	alexyk	derrida: I do it all in repl and paste back into textmate, then eval in repl what I need.
23:41	derrida	alexyk: you've gotta be kidding me?!
23:41	alexyk	my textmate has a snippet to send it to iterm.
23:41	alexyk	it's so damn compact, you can write 5 lines an hour and get it done by the EOD
23:42	alexyk	hiredman: how's vimclojure then? what are the issues?
23:42	hiredman	the dynamic features of vimclojure require it to eval every buffer you open
23:42	derrida	on open?
23:42	hiredman	which is annoying if you have something like (iterate inc 0)
23:42	hiredman	yes
23:43	derrida	bleh
23:43	hiredman	so i have that part turned off
23:43	derrida	it turns off you had to excise?
23:43	alexyk	hiredman: how do you turn them off?
23:43	hiredman	the highlighting and indentation is pretty good
23:44	derrida	my vimrc is like 500 lines :s
23:44	hiredman	""let g:clj_want_gorilla=1
23:44	hiredman	so without that line
23:44	derrida	omg 560 lines ...
23:44	hiredman	I haven't really kept my vimclojure install up to date
23:44	hiredman	mine is only 220
23:45	hiredman	my .emacs.el is only 127
23:45	derrida	560 is insane, i'm embarassed, i knew it had gotten long but ..
23:45	hiredman	that is a lot of vimscript :(
23:45	alexyk	"my chomsky is bigger than yours" :)
23:46	derrida	560 is more like being obese than having a big .. :>
23:47	hiredman	I used notepad++ to do a few euler problems with clojure
23:47	derrida	:(
23:47	alexyk	I can never remember how to save things into buffers and then recall them properly in vim. Emac sis easy
23:47	derrida	:h @
23:47	derrida	it's really easy in vim
23:47	hiredman	:wq
23:47	hiredman	:tabn
23:47	derrida	i dont think thats what he means
23:48	derrida	but maybe it is!
23:48	hiredman	tabs are sweet
23:48	derrida	i just use buffers, never tried tabs
23:48	hyp3rvigi1ant	when i started to learn vim years ago, i found reaching for Esc and then doing a Shift+colon all the time to be extremely annoying...never used vim much...more recently have started using emacs a lot, and like it much better
23:49	derrida	hyp3rvigi1ant: everything new takes getting used to
23:49	hyp3rvigi1ant	true
23:49	alexyk	I mean cut and paste
23:49	hiredman	I have < and > mapped to tabp and tabn
23:50	derrida	< > indent though :(
23:50	hiredman	get errors in emacs because M-: is eval elisp and w isn't bound
23:50	derrida	hiredman: i do that constantly haha
23:50	derrida	or ZZ in the middle of documents lol
23:51	derrida	hiredman: gg=G reformats the entire docuement btw
23:52	derrida	alexyk: anything you delete goes into the buffer
23:52	derrida	alexyk: so, dd - deletes a line
23:52	derrida	alexyk: p - will paste that line
23:52	derrida	alexyk: you can deliberately copy with 'y' for yank
23:52	alexyk	derrida: that I know. I use it for years for sysadmin tasks, and can never remember reching back into the sequence of yanks
23:53	alexyk	in emacs it was easy
23:53	derrida	alexyk: yeah, thats not easy in vim
23:53	alexyk	scroll through yanks to pick one
23:53	derrida	alexyk: hehe sorry for the lesson :)
23:53	alexyk	np, thats a few basics which is enough
23:54	alexyk	I cound lines etc. I used ed even on the iphone
23:54	derrida	hehe
23:54	derrida	that's hardcore ;)
23:54	alexyk	vi on the iphone was really cool, in a tiny term
23:55	derrida	technomancy\|away: one thing that would be really helpful is a screenshot of a succesful swank-clojure launch so we know what we're shooting for
23:56	derrida	my reply does work for simple evals
23:56	defn	derrida: get it figured out yet?
23:56	derrida	defn: :)
23:56	derrida	defn not quite hehe :)
23:57	defn	derrida: where you at now?
23:58	alexyk	clojars search is so broken, oh man
23:58	derrida	i ran lein deps after adding that line to the project.clj of one of my projects
23:58	defn	alexyk: yeah :(
23:58	defn	alexyk: it's best to just use the repo view
23:59	defn	http://clojars.org/repo/
23:59	derrida	defn: it downloaded several jars but i still get that same http://pastie.org/784317
23:59	alexyk	is _ato around generally?
23:59	defn	derrida: did you paste your project.clj file?
23:59	alexyk	how do you ask irc when a person was seen last again?