#clojure – 2009-12-23

2009-12-23

00:00	technomancy	sure
00:00	defn	(anyone is welcome really)
00:00	defn	http://github.com/defn/cljex
00:00	defn	src/cljex/* -- im trying to organize it better
00:00	defn	it seems like a real mess right now
00:02	defn	i just added the controller and view directories, i think that will go a long way in cleaning some of it up
00:02	defn	i guess one of my questions is: is a config.clj ill-advised?
00:02	technomancy	gotta get your .gitignore to skip .# autosaves
00:04	technomancy	defn: project-root seems to assume that you're always running out of a checkout
00:04	defn	haha yes i was just noticing that
00:04	technomancy	IMHO it's a better idea to keep your app code in one place and your data code somewhere else
00:04	technomancy	s/data code/data/
00:04	technomancy	anyway, then it won't break if you try to run it out of a jar or a server container or what have you
00:05	defn	so would you recommend putting public and docs and such in the root?
00:05	technomancy	yeah
00:05	defn	i know you have a "resources" thing with leiningen, but im not sure how to go about using such a thing
00:05	technomancy	resources would be for read-only data
00:05	technomancy	I'd have your config file be a map serialized to disk
00:06	defn	another problem ive been having is that when im in a REPL, the output from System/getProperty "user.dir" is always wrong
00:06	technomancy	yeah, relying on that kind of stuff is troublesome
00:07	defn	mainly im just trying to get paths nailed down, but ive been having some trouble
00:07	technomancy	have a set of default config values, then check (System/getProperty "cljex.config") to see if it points to a map on disk; if it does then merge it with the default config map
00:07	technomancy	I'd say you should require the data path to be explicitly passed in
00:07	technomancy	either through an environment variable or a property
00:07	defn	ah, that's interesting
00:08	defn	how do you create such a property: "cljex.config"?
00:08	technomancy	or a command-line arg
00:08	technomancy	just launch it with java -cp [...] -Dcljex.config=/etc/cljex.clj [...]
00:08	technomancy	you can have as many -D properties as you like
00:08	defn	ah, cool!
00:09	technomancy	man... there's so many little things like this that are just not documented in the context of clojure
00:09	defn	yeah, why do you think im working on this project?
00:09	defn	;)
00:09	technomancy	you have to pick it out of java-specific docs
00:09	technomancy	heh
00:09	defn	i so do miss the ruby documentation
00:09	technomancy	well it looks like most of this is clojure-specific
00:09	technomancy	I'm talking about JVM-level quirks
00:10	defn	sure sure -- it's not the same thing, but it's along the same lines
00:10	defn	documentation is key
00:10	technomancy	especially I/O related classes; you just have to figure that stuff out for yourself
00:10	technomancy	yeah, I mean it makes sense to start with clojure functions etc
00:11	defn	i feel like a big part of the whole endeavor is just getting people to document things like this in a coherent way
00:11	technomancy	but yeah, I hope this takes off
00:11	defn	it's slow going, but i hope it does too
00:11	defn	thanks for the support :)
00:12	defn	i just sent in my contributer agreement to rhickey -- i'm hoping to dig in a bit more so I can document things as they develop
00:12	defn	the 1.1.0 stuff is cool, but so sparsely documented
00:13	defn	if you're lucky you can find 1-3 posts on the internet of people showing how they use it
00:13	defn	(chunked-seqs, transients, etc)
00:13	technomancy	I thought the docs for transients were pretty thorough.
00:14	somnium	the chunk family doesnt even have doc strings
00:14	defn	look at this: http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/transient
00:15	defn	puke
00:15	defn	wtf is that?
00:15	technomancy	oh, I meant http://clojure.org/transients
00:15	defn	oh sure, but why nothing in the API? it's unnerving to me :\
00:15	technomancy	presumably the docstring will get fixed before the release
00:16	defn	the whole reason i started this project is that guessing at the API docs is a recipe for confusion
00:16	defn	so many weird references to single character :args meta
00:17	defn	like:
00:17	defn	,(doc chunk)
00:17	clojurebot	"([b]); "
00:17	defn	wtf is b?
00:17	_mst	ChunkBuffer!
00:17	_mst	don't ask me how to create one though ;)
00:18	defn	,(doc print-doc)
00:18	clojurebot	"([v]); "
00:18	somnium	defn: at this point the chunk fns dont neem intended for users
00:18	defn	how about that one?
00:18	defn	what is v?
00:18	defn	a var?
00:18	defn	a vector?
00:18	_mst	I guessed var :)
00:18	danlarkin	use the source, young skywalker
00:18	somnium	defn: when you see doc-strings like that its time to read the source
00:19	defn	danlarkin: somnium: i can read source, that's all well and good, but it bothers me that it's not more explicit
00:19	defn	why the information-hidey-ness?
00:19	danlarkin	"patches welcome :)"
00:19	defn	haha :) i just sent in my contributer agreement :)
00:20	somnium	defn: try doing (defn foo [v]) (doc foo)
00:22	defn	somnium: sure, i know how they get there, why they're there and all, i just feel like there needs to be some more elaboration in the API documentation -- the API docs as they stand now are just these automatically generated docstrings pushed to a website
00:23	defn	im sure this is efficient and easy, but people who are new to the language with no lisp background, with no java background, they're juggling enough as it is without adding another level of complexity to the matter
00:23	defn	i shouldn't have to read and understand the whole of clojure.core source in order to write a program
00:25	defn	i mean, im not opposed to it, i think it's a great learning experience, but there are many folks who are going to give up long before they get to reading source, and i think that's a shame
00:25	somnium	I would posit that people with no java or lisp background learning clojure have enough intellectual curiosity to poke around in the source when needed
00:25	defn	somnium: right now yes, but in the future, that's likely going to change
00:26	defn	clojure has been getting a lot of attention, lots of noobs afoot
00:26	defn	myself included
00:27	somnium	I think a very thorough explanation of special forms would be good for newbs
00:27	somnium	after that clojure.core isnt hard to read IMO
00:27	defn	not hard to read no, but i am big on examples, i dunno, in general, writing good documentation to me means diversifying the methods of explanation
00:28	somnium	my main issue with core is all the java poking up into it, but maybe Ill get over that
00:28	defn	clojure currently has the core API which is very terse, and it has people who are writing blog posts about how to use it
00:29	defn	i think it could be so much more rich with an API that did some of the blogger's work for them
00:29	defn	(the documentation i mean)
00:29	defn	(extended-print-doc)
00:30	defn	:)
00:31	defn	somnium: the java bothered me without a doubt, but im slowly getting used to it -- remembering that java's garbage collection is the reason i use clojure in the first place gives me a bit of pause
00:31	somnium	defn: well, I hope your effort takes off. rdoc got me up and running with ruby very quickly
00:32	technomancy	yeah, the docstrings that just say "see http://clojure.org/special-forms" are rather ill-advised IMO
00:34	technomancy	defn: is this application meant to be read/write or just a web frontend to some hard-coded data?
00:34	somnium	its not the java per se that bothers me, all the opaque calls to c.l.RT and etc, and the java tends to have less documentation than the clojure at this point
00:34	defn	technomancy: front-end for the time being, but in the future a wiki-esque sort of thing
00:34	technomancy	cool
00:35	defn	technomancy: which do you prefer?
00:36	technomancy	I think a wiki is the right idea, but leaving it at the web I'm not so fond of. Ideally further down the road you could download a jar that would contain all the docs as well as some reader functions
00:36	technomancy	then you could do (explain chunk) from the repl to see the detailed examples
00:36	defn	that's awesome i didn't even really consider that
00:36	technomancy	that way slime and the IDEs could provide integrated help
00:36	technomancy	I'm more likely to use docs that don't involve a context switch
00:37	defn	im so new to the idea of building jars and all that i dont really know what's possible
00:37	technomancy	sure, the jar can contain mostly data
00:37	defn	kind of like javadoc technomancy?
00:37	technomancy	I dunno; I've only used javadoc in the context of a browser
00:37	technomancy	I think it's HTML-only
00:37	defn	something i would love to see done in clojure (that i just dont know enough about clojure to build yet) is something like _why's what_method?
00:37	technomancy	I'm thinking of repl-level interaction
00:37	defn	(what-makes "abc" "ABC")
00:38	slashus2	Is there already a "clojuredoc" generator sort of thing?
00:38	defn	yes
00:38	technomancy	slashus2: there is, but it's currently designed only to work with contrib and clojure itself
00:38	technomancy	hasn't really been generalized
00:38	technomancy	and it relies on good docstrings; I think defn's effort is meant to supplement the docstrings
00:38	defn	nod
00:39	slashus2	That sounds like a good idea. I found myself in the beginning reading the core source to learn about the language and how it works.
00:39	defn	maybe i should include the source on every page as well...
00:39	somnium	maybe a metadata database in something like json, then it could be consumed on and offline by whatever app
00:40	defn	(source ...) is awfully handy
00:40	defn	somnium: ! so many good ideas
00:40	slashus2	Aside from the complex macros, it is very readable.
00:41	technomancy	my favourite thing about core.clj is how the readability improves as you get further into it.
00:41	technomancy	it's like a good wine
00:41	slashus2	very true
00:41	defn	technomancy: definitely
00:42	defn	but i'd be hard pressed to disagree with any sort of reference to good wine
00:42	technomancy	actually I'm not sure that good wine is like that
00:42	defn	tbqh
00:42	technomancy	yeah
00:42	ubii	being a beer drinker myself, I am still learning to develop a taste for wine
00:42	slashus2	It was really the first language that I bothered to look at the core implementation's source.
00:42	q1	(bean ...) is good too
00:42	technomancy	maybe bad beer would be a better analogy
00:43	somnium	:)
00:43	defn	one could also be a jerk and say: "it's like women..the more beer you drink..."
00:43	somnium	clojure.core: like bad beer in a good way
00:44	defn	by line 1000 of core.clj you start to really enjoy the `~name because it's closing time, and well, you haven't written anything in a long time
00:44	somnium	,(macroexpand '(for [x (range 10)] (* x x)))
00:44	clojurebot	(let* [iter__6014__auto__ (clojure.core/fn iter__4083 [s__4084] (clojure.core/lazy-seq (clojure.core/loop [s__4084 s__4084] (clojure.core/when-let [s__4084 (clojure.core/seq s__4084)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? s__4084) (clojure.core/let [c__6012__auto__ (clojure.core/chunk-first s__4084) size__6013__auto__ (clojure.core/int (clojure.core/count c__6012__auto__)) b__4086 (clojure.core/chunk-buffer size__6013__auto__)]
00:44	slashus2	noes
00:44	defn	oi vey!
00:45	ubii	too many of the languages that I have started to hack around with are like women, in that they look good from afar, but once you get up close, they really are not that great
00:45	defn	the implemented chunks in for now?
00:45	defn	i thought it was only filter and ....
00:45	somnium	let* confused the hell out of me at first
00:45	slashus2	I think Rich did it for all of the higher order functions.
00:45	defn	cool
00:46	ubii	whoops, I should say, like some women
00:46	somnium	(doc let)
00:46	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts therein."
00:46	defn	ubii: hehe, yeah you wouldn't want to be a /gay/ nerd.
00:46	defn	(doc let*)
00:46	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
00:46	somnium	hmm, I get the special forms message at my repl
00:47	slashus2	Have you all noticed that the transient implementation could probably be moved up a little in the core? Maybe it could be used to implement a few of the other core functions? (I may be wrong about this)
00:47	defn	somnium: same here, why is that?
00:47	defn	weird...
00:47	somnium	let* is a compiler symbol
00:48	somnium	,(let* [x 1] x)
00:48	clojurebot	1
00:48	somnium	(resolve 'let*)
00:49	somnium	,(resolve 'let*)
00:49	clojurebot	nil
00:49	defn	he's choking
00:49	pdk	nothing motivates you to begrudgingly take another look at emacs as trying out 3 different ides all not wanting to work
00:49	defn	,(macroexpand-1 (let* [x 1] x))
00:49	clojurebot	1
00:50	pdk	it's as if they magically become impossible when you add clojure into the mix
00:50	defn	it's as if they were impossible to begin with
00:51	ubii	pdk: which ides did you try?
00:51	pdk	i tried the clojure plugins in eclipse idea and netbeans so far
00:51	pdk	with eclipse it flipped out and cried trying to open an individual clj file
00:51	pdk	something about one of the base classes not having a filename property
00:51	pdk	idea pissed me off with how it refuses to open individual files outside of a project window
00:52	somnium	http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2w40c9t&s=6
00:52	pdk	and netbeans just sits and stares if i try to open a file
00:52	somnium	^^ why would anyone not want to use emacs? :-)
00:52	ubii	didn't try eclipse, but had netbeans 6.8 working, before I re-installed the OS on my laptop
00:53	pdk	some of us would be perfectly happy just to have a notepad++ level editor with proper lisp indenting
00:53	defn	if it doesn't have paredit-mode
00:53	defn	i dont want to talk about it
00:54	pdk	hm true
00:54	somnium	pdk: you say that now, but you havent used paredit
00:54	defn	a lisp editor without paredit-mode is like a human being without genitalia
00:54	ubii	in other words, not that fun
00:54	pdk	ok forget the ides for tonight
00:55	ubii	pdk, I gave up and decided to just man up and use emacs
00:55	somnium	defn: Im not sure thats the metaphor I would have used, but enclojure is painful without paredit
00:56	somnium	on the unfortunate occasions when Ive needed to write .java it comes in handy though
00:57	defn	somnium: my metaphor skills are obvious
00:57	somnium	:)
00:57	somnium	defn: looking forward to getclojure.org
00:58	defn	one thing i have to say, without gushing too much I hope, is how great this community is
00:58	defn	lots of great personalities amongst us
00:58	defn	among us*
00:59	defn	^^case in point
00:59	ubii	defn: is getclojure.org going to be the home of your new app?
00:59	defn	ubii: yeah eventually, im a newb
01:00	ubii	cool
01:00	defn	ive just never been so taken by a language before. i thought ruby was cool, but the allure of a lisp, concurrency, functional programming, transients, chunked-seqs, so many fantastic ideas and new directions
01:00	defn	it's very exciting
01:02	ubii	I have always been interested in lisp, but just never got around to trying to learn it, now with clojure I have an excuse
01:02	defn	same here
01:02	defn	watching rich's talks was just mind blowing
01:02	somnium	I tried common-lisp, and I hated it
01:02	defn	his talk "Are we there yet?" and his talk with Brian Beckman
01:02	ubii	I am tired of drinking the ruby kool-aid and am looking for a change
01:02	defn	ive watched them like 100 times
01:03	ubii	hmm, haven't seen that one yet
01:03	defn	the are we there yet?
01:03	ubii	correct
01:03	defn	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
01:03	defn	you saw the beckman video
01:03	defn	?
01:04	somnium	I expect Rich's ideas will have a lot of influence beyond clojure in the years to come
01:04	defn	somnium: yeah that's why it's exciting
01:04	defn	i totally agree
01:04	defn	ive tried to explain this to friends and they think im evangelizing, but it's a total paradigm shift
01:05	defn	one of the questions at the end of the "Are we there yet?" talk is a guy basically saying rich is repeating the history of philosophy with this sort of new synthesis of ideas
01:05	ubii	what is the link to the beckman video?
01:06	defn	http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Expert-to-Expert-Rich-Hickey-and-Brian-Beckman-Inside-Clojure/
01:07	defn	ubii: enjoy. some good stuff there :)
01:07	ubii	no haven't seen that either
01:07	defn	i think you'll appreciate the are we there yet talk after watching the beckman interview
01:10	ubii	the only screencasts that I have watched so far are Rich's 90 minute An Introduction for Lisp Programmers, the peepcode clojure screencast, and a 10 part clojure screencast on youtube
01:10	defn	those are good
01:10	defn	but the beckman interview is a very conversational introduction which i enjoyed
01:11	ubii	going to watch that right now
01:11	defn	and then are we there yet talk is sort of a window into the thought process behind clojure
01:11	defn	which i think is very revealing
01:11	defn	it sort of gives you a framework to understand clojure's trajectory
01:12	ubii	though I really should be working on some ruby projects for my clients
01:12	defn	:)
01:12	defn	i spent 6 hours today at work working on clojure
01:12	defn	i should be fired tbqh
01:12	defn	i feel guilty the whole time, but I can't stop
01:13	ubii	I am a freelancer and work from home, so no big brother to worry about :)
01:13	defn	ubii: nice to meet you :)
01:13	defn	<-devin
01:14	ubii	plus, I set my own hours, so if I spent x amount of hours learning clojure and "not" working, then I can alway make it up later
01:14	ubii	though there are these things called deadlines, that I sometimes need to worry about
01:15	ubii	defn: you too
01:15	defn	ubii: did you just start clojure today?
01:16	ubii	seems like most of my clients are trying to squeeze as much as they can in before the end of the year, so the last month or so has been crazy busy
01:17	ubii	defn: I starting reading up on it and watching some screencast a couple of months ago, but I have been so busy with work lately, that I haven't been able to "officially" sit down and start learning it until this week
01:19	defn	ubii: i failed a class to work on it -- it takes time with no lisp and java experience
01:19	defn	but it's coming along
01:19	ubii	spent most of my time before, playing around with various editors/ides, including emacs, trying to decide what to use, before I got started actually learning the language
01:20	defn	learning emacs is fantastic, paredit-mode is great, slime is great
01:20	defn	and with it being elisp, you get sort of a mini clojure (lisp) education in the process of messing with your config
01:21	ubii	never really touch lisp before, but have worked with Java before, so that aspect is not foreign
01:21	ubii	s/touch/touched/
01:21	defn	ive worked with java, but never professionally, only silly academic things that didn't need to work
01:22	defn	i never had to package up a jar, or if i did, i did it unknowingly via an IDE
01:22	ubii	most of my professional java experience has been more on the project management side, with a wee bit of pair programming with one of my developer at my last job
01:22	ubii	other than that, I have several college classes on Java
01:23	somnium	ubii: you may find inf-ruby (written by Matz) and Rinari (for rails) will help the 12-step-program move along faster
01:23	ubii	though to be honest, it has been years since I have touched Java, so I am beyond rusty
01:24	ubii	yeah, I will have to check them out
01:24	somnium	inf-ruby is what originally gon me hooked on emacs
01:28	ubii	wow, Beckman is an Astrophysicst, which is another field that I have interest in
01:28	defn	somnium: i haven't used inf-ruby much
01:28	defn	somnium: what you're favorite thing about it?
01:29	somnium	defn: its like slime-lite
01:29	defn	does it link your .rb file with an irb repl?
01:30	somnium	defn: it runs an inferier irb process and you can send it whatever you want
01:31	defn	from a source file though, yes?
01:31	defn	Like C-x C-e
01:31	defn	to get a method into the inferior ruby?
01:31	somnium	defn: sure, from clipboard, from file, jruby, mri, whatever
01:32	defn	cool
01:32	defn	ill have to check that out more
01:32	somnium	I dont recall the bindings off hand, C-h b is for that
01:32	defn	i tried inf-ruby before i knew antyhing about slime
01:32	defn	M-. is the greatest function ever
01:32	somnium	mozrepl for js is cool too
01:33	somnium	nothing matches slime though
01:33	defn	i was amazed when i hit M-. on accident
01:33	defn	i thought i'd have to scroll through core.clj
01:33	somnium	defn: what is it mapped to?
01:34	defn	(slime-edit-definition)
01:34	ubii	find a tag
01:34	defn	Lookup the definition of the name at a point.
01:34	somnium	my keybindings are all over the place now with dvorak + ergoemacs
01:34	defn	why dvorak?
01:35	defn	i read up on it and it doesnt look more efficient
01:35	somnium	defn: 80% of keypresses on the home row
01:36	defn	yeah but it's not really faster
01:36	somnium	my fingers were starting to hurt from emacs so I decided to learn dvorak and switch to ergoemacs
01:36	defn	it's like if i invented a new home row that exists on the left half of the keyboard
01:36	somnium	defn: ?
01:36	defn	and then claimed it was more efficient because i put commonly used chars together
01:37	somnium	defn: a lot of research went into the design
01:37	somnium	defn: finger strength, occurence frequency, etc
01:38	somnium	anyway, my fingers never hurt now so I quite like it
01:38	somnium	but it was an awkward first week
01:38	ubii	not feeling the love on the Beckman video, as it is still caching and has not started to play yet :(
01:38	defn	ubii: download the wmv
01:38	defn	or whatever format
01:38	ubii	yeah, I should
01:38	defn	im watching it again now
01:39	defn	:)
01:39	ubii	bad enough that you sent me out to Microsoft related site :)
01:39	ubii	maybe that is why it is not working :)
01:41	somnium	defn: one question, why is semi-colon on the home row? :)
01:41	ubii	hmm 526MB download, let me try a differnt format
01:42	defn	somnium: touché
01:43	defn	somnium: ubii: i have to go -- girlfriend is giving me the eye via text message
01:43	ubii	later
01:43	defn	it was good talking to you both, ill see you around, oh and, contribute to cljex! :)
01:43	defn	lots of low hanging fruit
01:46	somnium	cheers
01:50	ubii	guess I should bail, so I can get some work done, while I am waiting for this video to download
01:51	ubii	later
01:52	somnium	ciao
03:56	astertronisticon	\help
03:57	astertronisticon	\nickserv
05:06	triyo	I have a map of key/value pairs whos keys match to my function's parameter names. How do I utilize destructuring here without needing to use something like let to bind each param individually?
05:07	triyo	I've seens examples but cat for the life of me remember where.
05:07	triyo	*seen
05:10	cark	(defn my-func [{:keys [param1 param2]}] ... )
05:10	cark	or
05:11	cark	(defn my-func [{param1 :param1 param2 :param2}] ... )
05:11	cark	i never use the second one so it might be wrong
05:12	cark	anyways the info is available there : http://clojure.org/special_forms
05:13	triyo	thx cark
05:14	cark	i think there should be a separate page on destructuring on the clojure web site
05:15	triyo	I agree
05:17	cark	there is also a defnk macro somewhere that does that plumbing for you
05:18	cark	in contrib
05:20	triyo	def api
05:24	fliebel	,(doc ->>) ;returns an error on my computer
05:24	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
05:26	fliebel	What can possibly be the problem? I'm just running Clojure 1.0 Is ->> new or deprecated?
05:26	arbscht	fliebel: newer than 1.0
05:27	fliebel	arbscht: so I need to get the 1.1 rc?
05:28	talios	'lo arbscht
05:28	arbscht	fliebel: that should help
05:28	arbscht	talios: hey
05:28	talios	how goes?
05:29	arbscht	alright. haven't written much code this month, hoping to dive into 1.1 rc before the year end :p
05:29	fliebel	Where do I get clojure-contrib for 1.1rc?
05:30	talios	they're both on build.clojure.org/snapshots
05:30	talios	(maven repo
05:34	fliebel	talios: hey, that worked!
05:35	fliebel	Although I'm not sure I got a compatible contib now
05:35	talios	both should be 1.1-master-SNAPSHOT I think
05:36	talios	which is what I'm using currently
05:36	talios	er 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT
05:36	fliebel	talios: I just picked clojure from the google code thing where the download link goes on the clojure website
05:36	talios	ah ok - the build.clojure.org is from the hudson continuous build
05:37	fliebel	I'll pick the other clojure...
05:38	talios	mm, I really should finnish up more of this maven DSL
05:38	talios	what are you guys using to build your clojure foo? maven? leiningen?
05:38	talios	ant? or just the REPL
05:39	fliebel	I'd like to know that as well...
05:39	arbscht	lein and ant (separately) for me
05:40	talios	fliebel - seems quite a few are using my maven-clojure-plugin, and quite a few people are looking forward to my maven/clojure polyglot work ( which looks similar to leiningen)
05:41	fliebel	I think most of them use lein… I never looked into building things yet.
05:56	fliebel	I got something strange: clj does not stop after running a file.
05:57	fliebel	It just runs this: java -classpath /opt/local/share/java/clojure/lib/*:. clojure.main $1
05:58	fliebel	It just keeps saying "Java" at the top of my terminal.
05:59	Chousuke	fliebel: maybe you need to call shutdown-agents?
06:00	fliebel	chousuke: The thought didn't even occur to me… Do I need to kill agents? :P
06:02	Chousuke	kill? well, you need to make sure they don't have an action running in an infinite loop :/
06:02	Chousuke	the jvm won't exit as long as there are threads alive.
06:02	fliebel	I never used a def on them, so when I'm done it's out of all scopes and could be garbage collected, can't it?
06:03	Chousuke	shutdow-agents closes the threadpool
06:03	fliebel	ok… I'll try that
06:03	Chousuke	the agent objects themselves don't really matter.
06:03	fliebel	ok
06:04	fliebel	Worked!
06:04	talios	doh - bug report on the clojure-maven-plugin 1.2 already :( reproducable, but not sure -why- :(
06:05	talios	grr maven
06:09	neotyk	talios: do you need some help with maven?
06:10	talios	just looking through my diffs to see what might have triggered it - for some reason my goal isn't getting test deps, even thou the mojo has "@requiresDependencyResolution test"
06:12	neotyk	talios: have you looked at generated plugin.xml ?
06:14	talios	generated plugin.xml says test.
06:14	talios	mm, actualy - I look in the one in the jar as well
06:15	talios	and that was test as well
06:17	talios	mmmm, I wonder.... I moved a bunch of things to my Abstract parent class, which doesn't has the @requiresDep... annotation. I guess thats it.
06:18	fliebel	Does anyone know a good auto pair plugin for vim? When I type "(" I automatically get ")", but it is a little "arrogant", when I just want a single ( or ) because I added some code in between I have to do some extensive fiddling to get it to do that. I'm now thinking about disabling it, but it's a great thing to have, if it works.
06:39	metoo	,(-> 2 inc dec)
06:39	clojurebot	2
06:40	metoo	,(-> 2 #(+ 3 %))
06:40	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.ISeq
06:40	metoo	,(-> 2 (#(+ 3 %)))
06:40	clojurebot	5
06:41	metoo	why here i have to add another '()?
06:41	metoo	,(-> 2 (+ 3))
06:41	clojurebot	5
06:41	metoo	,(-> 2 print)
06:41	clojurebot	2
06:42	metoo	,print
06:42	clojurebot	#<core$print__5678 clojure.core$print__5678@15e3abb>
06:42	cark	when the -> macro see a list, it applies the result to the first element (a function) of that list
06:42	metoo	,#(+ 3 %)
06:42	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__4183$fn__4185 sandbox$eval__4183$fn__4185@39a07>
06:43	hiredman	,(macroexpand '#(+ 3))
06:43	clojurebot	(fn* [] (+ 3))
06:43	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(-> 2 #(+ 3)))
06:43	clojurebot	(fn* 2 [] (+ 3))
06:43	metoo	hmm
06:45	metoo	so -> think #(..) as a list?
06:45	hiredman	it is a list
06:45	hiredman	#() is expanded by the reader to (fn* ..)
06:46	metoo	ic, but this is abit odd
06:46	hiredman	it's not
06:46	metoo	,(-> 2 (fn [x] (+ x 2)))
06:46	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
06:46	hiredman	fn*
06:47	cark	,(-> 2 ((fn [x] (+ x 2))))
06:47	clojurebot	4
06:47	hiredman	~macro
06:47	clojurebot	macro are just a game with symbols
06:47	hiredman	gah
06:47	hiredman	clojurebot: forget macro\|are\|just a game with symbols
06:47	clojurebot	I forgot macro\|are\|just a game with symbols
06:48	hiredman	~macro
06:48	clojurebot	macro are just a game with symbols
06:48	hiredman	liar
06:48	cark	it's true that it would be nicer to have it understand it the way metoo wants
06:48	cark	it wouldn't be that hard
06:48	cark	make ti a special case for (fn* and (fn
06:48	metoo	sure
06:49	cark	just for fn* actually
06:50	hiredman	cark: I prefer consistency
06:50	cark	true, let's just say it's a close call here
06:51	cark	this double parenthesis thing is quite ugly
06:51	metoo	,(fn [x] (+ x 1) 2)
06:51	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__4201$fn__4203 sandbox$eval__4201$fn__4203@1fb4a7b>
06:51	metoo	oops
06:51	fliebel	what is fn*? my doc doesn't find it.
06:51	metoo	,((fn [x] (+ x 1)) 2)
06:51	clojurebot	3
06:52	hiredman	fliebel: fn is actually not a special form, it is a macro that emits fn*
06:52	hiredman	fn* is the special form
06:52	metoo	,(-> 2 (fn [x] (+ x 1)))
06:52	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
06:52	metoo	it's not consistency
06:52	hiredman	it is
06:52	metoo	,(-> 2 (print))
06:53	clojurebot	2
06:53	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (fn [] )))
06:53	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
06:53	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (fn* [] )))
06:53	clojurebot	(fn* 1 [])
06:53	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (print)))
06:53	clojurebot	(print 1)
06:53	hiredman	completely uniform
06:54	the-kenny	,(macroexpand '(->> 1 (fn* [] )))
06:54	the-kenny	,(macroexpand '(->> 1 (fn* [] )))
06:54	clojurebot	(fn* [] 1)
06:54	metoo	,(macroexpend '(->1 print))
06:54	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: macroexpend in this context
06:54	hiredman	metoo: I just did that
06:54	fliebel	What is a ctor?
06:54	hiredman	constructor
06:56	metoo	print is a function (fn ...) also function, why act not same?
06:57	the-kenny	metoo: Where does it differ?
06:57	hiredman	metoo: print is a symbol
06:57	hiredman	-> is a macro
06:57	metoo	and (fn ..) is a list?
06:57	hiredman	it operates before any symbol resolution or function creation
06:58	hiredman	it is a list
06:58	metoo	i think ->/->> macro should know (fn..) as special form just like cark said
06:58	hiredman	(-> 1 print) generates the list (print 1) which when evaluated is a function call
06:59	hiredman	metoo: nope
06:59	the-kenny	metoo: Then you would have to implement dozens of special cases for every single macro
06:59	hiredman	(-> 1 (fn* [] )) generates the list (fn* 1 []) when evaluated this is not a valid form
07:01	cark	the-kenny : no there would be a single special case
07:01	cark	but yes i'm not sure that's a good idea
07:01	metoo	function in clojure isnot first class member just like haskell?
07:01	the-kenny	cark: and what should the special case do?
07:02	the-kenny	metoo: They are, but they are accessed through symbols
07:02	cark	check if the first element iof the list is fn*
07:02	hiredman	metoo: -> is a macro
07:02	hiredman	it operates on the datastructures generated by the reader
07:02	metoo	->/->> thread inside functions
07:03	hiredman	,(read-string "(fn [] )")
07:03	clojurebot	(fn [])
07:03	hiredman	,(list? (read-string "(fn [] )"))
07:03	clojurebot	true
07:04	metoo	so, it just a list, not others,right?
07:04	hiredman	"not others"?
07:04	metoo	this list eval to one function
07:04	hiredman	,(list? (read-string "(+ 1 2)"))
07:04	clojurebot	true
07:04	hiredman	after macro expansion
07:05	fliebel	Why doesn't this work? (-> "/path/to/file"
07:05	fliebel	(FileWriter.)
07:05	fliebel	(BufferedWriter.)
07:05	fliebel	(.write "content"))
07:05	hiredman	(fn [] ) does not become a function until after -> is done
07:05	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(Foo.))
07:05	clojurebot	(new Foo)
07:05	metoo	i got the point, but i think it 's not natural :)
07:06	hiredman	Foo. is a reader macro
07:06	hiredman	metoo: it is
07:06	hiredman	metoo: you just don't know macros
07:06	fliebel	hiredman: so I need to insert the path somewhere in the middle?
07:06	hiredman	fliebel: loose the parens
07:06	hiredman	lose
07:06	hiredman	(-> "foo" Foo. Bar. Baz.)
07:08	fliebel	hiredman: (-> "/path/to/file"
07:08	fliebel	FileWriter.
07:08	fliebel	BufferedWriter.
07:08	fliebel	(.write "content"))
07:09	fliebel	No matching method found: write for class java.io.BufferedWriter
07:10	hiredman	well check the javadocs for BufferedWriter
07:10	fliebel	the problem is this:
07:10	hiredman	fliebel: no
07:10	fliebel	,(macroexpand '(.write java.io.writer.))
07:10	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.io.writer.
07:10	hiredman	stop
07:10	hiredman	Stop!
07:11	hiredman	do not continue until you have read the java docs for bufferedwriter
07:11	fliebel	I did....
07:11	hiredman	are you sure?
07:12	metoo	Writer?
07:12	hiredman	ok
07:12	fliebel	hiredman: It inherits a write
07:13	the-kenny	fliebel: and write takes a string?
07:13	fliebel	hiredman: the problem is that .write turns into (. (java.io.Writer.) write)
07:13	fliebel	hiredman: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/io/Writer.html#write(java.lang.String)
07:14	hiredman	that is not a problem
07:14	hiredman	fliebel: works fine here
07:15	hiredman	so you must be doing something different
07:15	fliebel	hmh, I think I found it :$ I wasn't supplying a string, but a list containing a string :$
07:16	metoo	shuld work
07:17	fliebel	except that it did not write anything :( But before starting to worry, let's double check my string :D
07:18	the-kenny	fliebel: with-open?
07:19	the-kenny	,(doc with-open)
07:19	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); bindings => [name init ...] Evaluates body in a try expression with names bound to the values of the inits, and a finally clause that calls (.close name) on each name in reverse order."
07:19	hiredman	fliebel: you have to close your streams
07:19	fliebel	ah...
07:19	hiredman	metoo: go write your own language, please
07:20	hiredman	or take some time and learn clojure instead of sitting around saying "should work"
07:20	hiredman	well
07:20	hiredman	close or flush
07:20	hiredman	closing flushes
07:21	metoo	hiredman: i mean fliebel's code should work
07:21	fliebel	hiredman: so I can't use -> because write returns nothing.
07:22	hiredman	a. use with-open, b. (-> "foo" Writer. (doto (.write "x") .close))
07:23	hiredman	(with-open [w (-> "foo" Writer.)] (.write w "x"))
07:24	fliebel	hmhm
07:25	fliebel	it worked!
07:58	fliebel	What should I put in a leiningen file for clojure and clojure-contrib?
08:02	somnium	:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"] [org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]]
08:02	the-kenny	1.1.0-new-SNAPSHOT is also possible for clojure too
08:02	the-kenny	(new branch)
08:03	fliebel	what is the difference?
08:03	the-kenny	new vs. master branch
08:03	somnium	the-kenny: I had trouble getting new-SNAPSHOT to work with swank last time I tried, have you had trouble?
08:04	fliebel	ah looks puzzled, assumes git speak
08:04	the-kenny	fliebel: yes, git branches ;)
08:04	the-kenny	somnium: Yes, I had problems too.. but I had a working setup with new in another project.. strange stuff ;)
08:04	somnium	the-kenny: I suspect it might be lein's fault
08:05	somnium	I had it working when I was doing it by hand
08:05	the-kenny	somnium: No, I had aot-problems
08:05	somnium	the-kenny: even with non-AOT swank jar?
08:05	the-kenny	somnium: hm... don't know if my swank.jar is aot'd or not
08:06	the-kenny	it's from clojars
08:06	somnium	the-kenny: theres nwo in the repo, the versioned is aot'ed
08:06	somnium	/s/wno/two
08:06	somnium	lein installs an AOT'ed one
08:07	somnium	guess swapping it with the slim should work
08:12	neotyk	Would like to use ClojureQL via Leiningen, what are it's coordinates ?
08:12	the-kenny	neotyk: http://clojars.org/org.clojars.snuxoll/clojureql
08:13	fliebel	How do I get command line arguments, like with the java main function?
08:13	the-kenny	,command-line-args
08:13	clojurebot	nil
08:14	fliebel	that was to simple… :$
08:14	neotyk	the-kenny: thanks
08:14	the-kenny	You're welcome
08:15	fliebel	Does this sort of stuff work to get the same behavior via java or clj? (defn -main [& args])
08:15	fliebel	(apply main command-line-args)
08:52	fliebel	Whoa! Calling shutdown-agents gives me a nasty error… Without it nothing happens, but the application continues to run.
08:53	fliebel	Exception in thread "main" java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException (generator.clj:0)
08:55	hiredman	you shutdown the agents, but are still sending actions
08:55	hiredman	the actions are rejected
08:55	fliebel	So? await them?
08:56	cemerick	oh, this is pretty: http://lesscss.org/
08:56	hiredman	fliebel: don't touch agents after you shutdown the agent system
08:57	fliebel	hiredman: I can't see how I do something to an agent after I call shutdown… hmmm....
08:58	hiredman	fliebel: you are
08:58	fliebel	yep, misplaced a paren...
08:58	fliebel	I indented the shutdown, but the function stopped the line before that.
09:04	fliebel	Can someone help me with a little concurrency? I got an agent vector that is appended to. At the moment I use await to wait for everything to finish. If I remove that the last few items are missing. How can I start processing those items but also make sure to get all of them?
09:05	chouser	fliebel: are you using this agent as a work queue?
09:05	the-kenny	fliebel: From where are you calling await?
09:05	fliebel	uuhm, one moment...
09:06	AWizzArd	fliebel: maybe you want http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/ArrayBlockingQueue.html
09:06	rhickey	rc2 is up: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/downloads/list
09:07	fliebel	I use send-off to append data from files into the agent vector, then from the main thread I call await and then start using the vector.
09:07	chouser	yay!
09:07	rhickey	includes fixes for sorted collections' empty and arraymap persistent!
09:08	chouser	rhickey: I saw that. What changed your mind?
09:08	fogus	the twitterverse has been notified.
09:09	rhickey	chouser: I looked more closely at the diff, decided it was minor enough to risk the fact tht it hasn't seen any use
09:09	rhickey	what I'd like to avoid is pre-release breakage
09:10	chouser	rhickey: yes, entirely reasonable.
09:10	hiredman	wow
09:10	hiredman	since when did that work
09:11	chouser	That bug's been sitting there getting almost no complaints for months
09:11	rhickey	I'm thinking also next time I'd like tests for new features to be pre-reqs for release, e.g. transients should have tests
09:12	fliebel	AWizzArd: How do I use that thing you pointed to?
09:13	AWizzArd	fliebel: okay, maybe you don't know how many elements you want to put on the queue, so a http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/LinkedBlockingQueue.html may be even better for you.
09:13	rhickey	all branches are now in sync
09:13	AWizzArd	fliebel: just call the constructor, maybe (let [x (java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue.)] ...)
09:13	AWizzArd	rhickey: oh that's good news, thank you
09:13	rhickey	i.e. new has all master patches
09:14	chouser	not too much painful merging I hope?
09:15	fliebel	AWizzArd: await takes only 20 ms, so unless it is dead simple to rip out my agent and use your list, I'm leaving it this way.
09:17	AWizzArd	The queues to which I pointed you also supports something like await and await-for. But it can also make sure that you get all elements and such.
09:18	hiredman	blockingqueue's are great because you can just start processing, and your processing function with wait until it has something to process
09:18	fliebel	how about send-off? the point of the whole thing was to go read thos files somewhere in teh future and come back to hem when needed.
09:19	rhickey	chouser: totally painless
09:27	AWizzArd	fliebel: where you now have your agent you use the queue. (def my-agent (agent [])) ==> (def my-queue (LinkedBlockingQueue.)) And instead of (send my-agent conj value) you can (.put my-queue value).
09:28	arj_	I'm having trouble with an anonymous function that returns a map. Defined as #({:id %)), if I call that on a string e.g. I get wrong number of arguments for persistentarraymap?
09:28	hiredman	arj_: #() is not (fn ...)
09:28	fliebel	AWizzArd: thanks
09:28	hiredman	,(macroexpand '#({:a 1})
09:28	clojurebot	EOF while reading
09:28	hiredman	,(macroexpand '#({:a 1}))
09:28	clojurebot	(fn* [] ({:a 1}))
09:29	hiredman	you are calling the map as a function there
09:29	arj_	aha
09:29	arj_	how would I write it then?
09:30	chouser	#(hash-map :id %) or (fn [v] {:id v})
09:30	arj_	thanks :)
09:33	devlinsf	chouser: Hey, 128 got in!
09:33	devlinsf	chouser: Thanks for cleaning it up
09:34	chouser	devlinsf: sure, thanks for the tests
09:34	chouser	so will your visitor be easier to write now?
09:35	devlinsf	Hehehehe..
09:35	devlinsf	I'm taking it to a whole new lever
09:35	devlinsf	level
09:35	devlinsf	You're gonna love it
09:36	devlinsf	I've still got to put a little polish on the new fn. I'll send you a link when it's done
09:39	fliebel	Can someone give me a little help with lein? I need to get an external jar included.
09:42	fliebel	The faq says I have to install it into ~/.m2, but I never used maven, and typing man maven gives no result, so how should I do this?
09:50	neotyk	fliebel: google for mvn artifact install
09:55	fliebel	neotk: thanks
09:55	neotyk	fliebel: http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html
09:56	neotyk	in lein what versions of clojure{,-contrib} I should use? 1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT 1.1.0-rc2?
09:56	fliebel	that is not an easy command, but I'll eventually figure out.
10:01	fliebel	neotyk: I can figure out file and version, do you have any idea about the others? that would save me a lot of time
10:01	neotyk	fliebel: np
10:03	fliebel	Especially artefactid…. no Idea what that means. For packaging I'd try jar, for group id the classpath, is that anywhere near correct?
10:04	rhickey	devlinsf: ping
10:05	devlinsf	rhickey: he
10:05	devlinsf	rhickey: Hey, thank you too
10:06	rhickey	devlinsf: Hi - saw your videos - nice. 2 nits with the transients one:
10:06	devlinsf	Sure
10:06	devlinsf	(How'd you find them)
10:06	devlinsf	(Don't post a link yet)
10:06	rhickey	transients do share structure, in fact, a new transient shares almost all of its structure with the persistent it was created from
10:06	devlinsf	Ooops
10:07	rhickey	what they don't do is offer persistence
10:07	rhickey	and when done, the persistent adots almost all of the structure of the transient
10:07	chouser	devlinsf: just saw a link to your videos here: http://disclojure.org/
10:07	devlinsf	Ah. I'll ad an adendum to the show nore
10:07	devlinsf	WOw
10:07	rhickey	a transient is more like the birthing mode of a persistent
10:07	devlinsf	Hmmm....
10:08	devlinsf	Okay
10:08	devlinsf	Good to know
10:09	rhickey	a second point, a key protection of transients is that they don't support the 'changing' interface of persistents, i.e. conj etc, so if accidentally leaked (before calling persistent!, they can't be used as a changeable persistent, even in the same thread
10:09	devlinsf	Oh yeah. Duh
10:10	devlinsf	rhickey: I'm working on 2 more now, transients & constraints
10:10	devlinsf	Eh, templates & constraints
10:10	rhickey	templates?
10:10	devlinsf	Yeah. clojure.template
10:11	rhickey	do we want to talk about that?
10:11	devlinsf	I've found a pretty cool use case
10:11	devlinsf	check the github for episdoe 3
10:11	devlinsf	http://github.com/francoisdevlin/Full-Disclojure
10:14	hiredman	neotyk: where you able to get clojurebot up?
10:20	fliebel	where is my pom.xml file? (need it for lein)
10:27	neotyk	fliebel: in lein dependencies [[groupId/artifactId "version"]]
10:27	neotyk	hiredman: not yet
10:28	fliebel	neotyk: So how can I add this? http://code.google.com/p/markdownj/wiki/Maven
10:28	hiredman	well I'm around and in a better place then yesterday
10:29	neotyk	hiredman: trying to leiningenize clojurebot
10:29	hiredman	hah!
10:29	hiredman	excellenet
10:29	hiredman	I was thinking I should do that some day
10:30	neotyk	hiredman: but we have some issues with netowork at office now (~80% packet lost) so it goes terrible slow
10:30	hiredman	:(
10:30	fliebel	neotyk: I understand that I should add org.markdownj and all that stuff, but how do I add the scala-tools repo?
10:31	hiredman	lein would be good, since clojurebot's list of deps never seems to shrink, and I never upgrade, so getting the right set of jars would be a hassel
10:34	neotyk	I really like that you can upgrade plugins without restarting bot
10:34	neotyk	if I remember right
10:36	fliebel	I found the repository keyword, but nothing about it's syntax
10:38	neotyk	fliebel: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/deps.clj
10:38	neotyk	fliebel: I think it is [[id url]]
10:38	fliebel	neotyk: I think so to since using the string or just the url fails
10:38	neotyk	fliebel: if I read it right, though I'm new to clojure
10:40	fliebel	neotyk: you're right, but it's not yet working...
10:41	fliebel	wrong version :S
10:43	fliebel	It's working now!
10:43	neotyk	fliebel: so how do you use repos?
10:44	fliebel	:repositories [["scala-tools" "http://scala-tools.org/repo-releases"]]
10:44	fliebel	cool
10:51	djpowell	what sort of applications does promise/deliver have?
10:51	fliebel	promise allows for dataflow programming… I'm trying to understand that :)
10:52	fliebel	The basic idea is that you deliver a variable, but nothing happen untill the data arrives.
10:52	chouser	I keep using it to turn callback-driven RPC into blocking calls.
10:53	CalJunior	I am trying to implement a java interface using proxy but keep getting java.lang.RuntimeException
10:54	CalJunior	(def foo (proxy [SomeJavaInterface] []))
10:55	CalJunior	java.lang.Exception: Can't resolve: SomeJavaInterface (NO_SOURCE_FILE:18)
10:56	CalJunior	I did import the interface class: (import '(com.mycompany.client.SomeJavaInterface))
10:58	CalJunior	I know this is a boring java interop for noobs question but any suggestions?
10:59	cemerick	CalJunior: (import 'pkg.ClassName), not (import '(pkg.ClassName))
10:59	chouser	ugh. wow. that probably ought to throw something.
11:01	CalJunior	ClassNotFoundException. So it's back to the classpath drawing board again ...
11:01	hiredman	well
11:01	hiredman	(import '(foo)) is importing no classes from the foo package
11:01	chouser	right
11:02	chouser	which is useless, so almost certainly not what you meant.
11:02	hiredman	I suppose it could throw something :/
11:02	fliebel	defn: Are you reading? I succeeded in finishing the very basic functionality and built a jar. I send you an email with more information. Anyone else: check out http://github.com/pepijndevos/utterson <<< my first clojure project! :)
11:02	cemerick	I don't know that that should throw an exception.
11:02	cemerick	Maybe a warning printed to err?
11:03	chouser	if classpaths weren't tricky and a cause of newbie pain, it might be best to not warn or error out.
11:08	CalJunior	I'm quite sure I have set the classpath correctly.
11:09	CalJunior	is there a way to check this in clojure repl?
11:09	CalJunior	except for the import call returning a class not found exception.
11:10	chouser	CalJunior: how are you setting the classpath. env variable, command-line arg, or ... ?
11:10	cemerick	(System/getProperty "java.class.path") (if you set up the classpath in a typical way)
11:10	CalJunior	I've set the classpath in a shell script.
11:10	chouser	CalJunior: using CLASSPATH=... ?
11:11	CalJunior	basically I'm using the Progamming Clojure shell script from Stuart Halloway
11:12	CalJunior	(System/getProperty "java.class.path")
11:12	CalJunior	the jar is in the classpath according to (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
11:13	CalJunior	the jar includes com.mycompany.client.SomeJavaInterface.class
11:13	chouser	hm. can you look inside the .jar and see ... hm...
11:13	CalJunior	I did.
11:13	chouser	yeah
11:13	chouser	any dashes or underscores involved?
11:15	CalJunior	nope
11:15	neotyk	how do I use http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse from leiningen?
11:16	CalJunior	when I do (import '(com.mycompany.client.SomeJavaInterface)) - which would be wrong - clojure return 'nil' rather than ClassNotFoundException
11:16	chouser	CalJunior: yeah, that's essentially a no-op
11:16	CalJunior	right
11:16	chouser	,(import '(i.made.this.up))
11:16	clojurebot	nil
11:16	CalJunior	clear
11:16	chouser	,(import 'i.made.this.up)
11:16	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: i.made.this.up
11:17	chouser	CalJunior: could you lisp.paste your actual results from (System/getProperty "java.class.path") and your actual import line?
11:18	chouser	lisppaste8: url?
11:18	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
11:18	CalJunior	yes I can
11:21	lisppaste8	caljunior pasted "classpath" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92539
11:22	CalJunior	this is the actual import line: http://paste.lisp.org/display/92540
11:27	CalJunior	the first .jar contains com/ib/client/EWrapper.class file which is the interface I want to implement using proxy.
11:28	CalJunior	that would be jtsclient.jar
11:30	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
11:30	clojurebot	max people is 240
11:32	AWizzArd	chouser: last year we also peaked in late December/mid January with people here. And I think it was around January of this year when the first Clojure was released. Now we are close to the next one.
11:33	pdk	christmas break from work is the best time of year to futz with new languages apparently :p
11:33	AWizzArd	If my idea is right then in late January there will be fewer commits to the Clojure repository, and fewer people in here, and fewer postings in the group.
11:33	pdk	come to think of it didnt python start as a 2 week christmas break project
11:33	AWizzArd	hmm :-)
11:34	pdk	cal: if it returns nil as far as i know that indicates the import worked
11:35	pdk	but yeah the syntax with '() around package names is correct
11:35	CalJunior	chouser disagrees on this:
11:35	CalJunior	,(import '(i.made.this.up))
11:35	clojurebot	nil
11:36	pdk	hmm
11:36	hiredman	(importing nothing from any package)
11:36	CalJunior	I quote: "yeah, that's essentially a no-op"
11:37	CalJunior	there must be a problem with my shell script.
11:38	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple?
11:38	clojurebot	simple setup is http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
11:38	neotyk	hiredman: you can check my fork, only fnparse to sort out and all dependencies are solved
11:38	hiredman	wow
11:38	CalJunior	hiredman: thanks
11:39	neotyk	hiredman: temporary putting FnParse.jar in lib will show that it is last dep to solve
11:40	neotyk	hiredman: now I finally see errors like: "Caused by: java.io.IOException: Cannot run program "git" (in directory "/home/hiredman/clojure"): error=2, No such file or directory" which is great progress
11:40	hiredman	:\|
11:41	hiredman	yeah, and horribleness on my part
11:41	hiredman	that would be clode_lookup.clj
11:41	hiredman	code
11:41	neotyk	hiredman: I guess it's time for clojurebot.properties from my side :P
11:42	hiredman	I having a sneaking suspision that path is hard coded
11:42	hiredman	for that particular plugin
11:42	neotyk	I've already filled issue in FNParse to make it leiningen friendly
11:43	hiredman	the fnparse author was in here the other day talking about splitting fnparse into two libraries
11:43	hiredman	what I get for using something under active developement
11:43	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #92539 "searching for a class file in a jar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92539#1
11:44	chouser	CalJunior: take a look at that paste
11:45	chouser	I know you said you already looked inside the .jar, but we must be missing something. So this has Java do the checking inside the .jar, from the same repl that's failing to load the class.
11:45	chouser	maybe it'll tell us something.
11:48	CalJunior	chouser: thanks, I'm on it.
11:58	aldebrn	Been running Rich's ant colony simulation on my i720 with (def ant-sleep-ms 1) and seeing all 8 lines in System Monitor go to ~50% floods me with hope (as someone who has tried to do parallel scientific computing on generic CPUs)
11:59	aldebrn	They found all the food :-/
12:01	chouser	aldebrn: that must not be the Motorola i720 Cell Phone
12:21	CalJunior	chouser & hiredman: problem resolved. my clojure setup was busted. thanks for the pointers.
12:24	chouser	CalJunior: did the jar-entries fn help diagnose at all?
12:37	CalJunior	chouser: I got the following Exception when running the jar-entries fn: Unable to resolve symbol: ->> in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:5)
12:38	CalJunior	is it relevant I was running clojure 1.0.0?
12:38	hiredman	yeah
12:39	hiredman	->> is not in 1.0
12:39	chouser	yeah, sorry. didn't think twice about that.
12:39	chouser	CalJunior: ok, glad you figured it out anyway.
12:40	CalJunior	in 1.1.0 it returns: ("com/ib/client/EWrapper.class")
12:40	CalJunior	so it found the class file.
12:41	chouser	so what was the actual problem?
12:46	CalJunior	good question. still trying to figure that out. the problem only occurs on my desktop. I installed the latest clojure release on my laptop added the jar file to the classpath (essentially the same shell script) and it worked.
12:52	CalJunior	a telling sign might be that when I run the script it boots clojure 1.0.0 while the clojure.jar file in the classpath is most definitely a more recent version (1.1 rc2 now)
12:53	chouser	CalJunior: maybe paste your script?
12:53	hiredman	clojurebot: -cp and classpath?
12:53	clojurebot	-cp and CLASSPATH are mutually exclusive
12:53	CalJunior	good point
12:53	hiredman	I dunno, just a guess
12:55	CalJunior	paste.lisp.org/display/92545
12:56	hiredman	use clojure.main
12:57	hiredman	(I doubt that is the problem, but best not use Repl or Script)
12:57	CalJunior	yes, but that doesn't make a difference
12:57	CalJunior	in this case
12:58	hiredman	I don't think that it would
13:01	CalJunior	I deleted all clojure.jar files except for 1.1 rc2 version and it still boots 1.0.0.
13:03	chouser	maybe compojure.jar (or something) includes clojure.main?
13:03	CalJunior	I have to sign off. dinner beckons (CET). it must be my system setup, probably not clojure specific so I will try to resolve it myself. thanks again.
13:03	tolstoy	Trying running from a different user account. ;)
13:03	CalJunior	i tried removing compojure.jar. no change.
13:04	chouser	CalJunior: ok. let us know what you find, though, for when others run into similar problems.
13:04	CalJunior	different user account: good idea.
13:05	CalJunior	p.s. clojure the lang and the community is great. I happily donated to the 2010 funding drive.
13:06	chouser	CalJunior: great, thanks!
13:07	CalJunior	I donated under my real name, which I prefer to keep off the chat log due to my regularly less than intelligent questions :-)
13:08	chouser	understandable, if not very sporting.
13:08	hiredman	haha
13:09	chouser	I occasionally go back to the beginning of the logs which surprisingly coincide with me starting to ask questions here.
13:10	chouser	Reading my own questions helps from them helps to keep perspective on everyone else's questions. :-)
13:10	hiredman	nom de cancre
13:14	fogus	CalJunior: An Orioles fan?
13:14	chouser	"ah, for is in the svn" -- 7 Feb 2008
13:15	chouser	"I just thought recur would be more correct before I realized that it didn't really make sense for lazy-cons" -- 12 Feb 2008
13:17	cemerick	jeez, I was in here on 2/7/2008
13:18	cemerick	almost two years, comin' up
13:18	hiredman	2008:Nov:11:13:30:11 hiredman is this coljure swag, or libertarian swag?
13:18	hiredman	my first question
13:18	chouser	"Chouser: But I can't say I like lisp's lack of syntax. Clojure's [vectors] help a little ..."
13:18	hiredman	such wide-eyed innocence
13:19	chouser	hehe
13:21	chouser	"Chouser: hash- and sorted-maps are immutable?" sheesh!
13:22	cemerick	...and I was yammering on about an eclipse plugin back then.
13:22	cemerick	...using the sbcl eclipse plugin as a base, I think
13:23	tolstoy	When I use languages like Clojure or Groovy (or Erlang), I find I just don't need a big beefy IDE. Textmate works fine.
13:23	tolstoy	Although emacs/slime and swank work for Clojure quite nicely.
13:24	tolstoy	Is there something like (apropos "some key words") in Clojure?
13:24	hiredman	just wait for my gui repl
13:24	the-kenny	tolstoy: doc
13:24	the-kenny	oh, sorry. No
13:24	hiredman	find-doc
13:24	hiredman	(doc find-doc)
13:24	clojurebot	"([re-string-or-pattern]); Prints documentation for any var whose documentation or name contains a match for re-string-or-pattern"
13:24	tolstoy	Ah, find-doc. Okay.
13:25	hiredman	I'm going to have a write-history function that will write the repl's history to file
13:26	tolstoy	Oh, cool! Just (find-doc'd) my way to update-proxy. Might-could use that.
13:30	kylesmith	Anyone interested in giving me some feedback on my genetic algorithms / genetic programming?
13:31	Fossi	lisp just loves emacs
13:31	Fossi	especially with paredit
13:32	Fossi	takes editing to another level
13:42	pdk	kylesmith what sort of things are you using it for
13:56	wavis_	kylesmith: i'm not particularly experienced with those, but i'd love to have a look
14:29	fliebel	Why does prxml print? I'd like to have the output, not printing it.
14:29	the-kenny	fliebel: use with-out-string
14:30	fliebel	the-kenny: thanks… I was already looking at setting out myself. I hate functions that print. adding print is a small effort, caching printed stuff is harder.
14:54	LauJensen	I was looking at the Par branch last night - whats going on with that ? Still being worked on? Some of it is destined for merge with master?
15:00	drewr	LauJensen: I think I remember par being deprecated in favor of forkjoin
15:01	rhickey	the par branch is the new forkjoin stuff
15:01	rhickey	it will eventually be folded in
15:01	drewr	ah
15:01	LauJensen	Any docs on the 'forkJoin' stuff I can go have a lookat ?
15:01	LauJensen	+ \space
15:01	rhickey	but we need to have a conversation in the community about java 5, since it won't be supported by forkjoin
15:02	rhickey	it would be nive to put forkjoin behind agents, future etc
15:02	rhickey	nice
15:03	drewr	will that be post-cinc?
15:04	rhickey	drewr: it's unrelated, so could go before or after, more a matter of time, and focus
15:05	drewr	that's more what I meant, focus-wise
15:07	rhickey	drewr: TBD, I'm still working on what is the best path. Given deftype/protocols, the possibility exists to bring a lot of the abstractions over. At that point, many interesting things could be on the table. Primitive versions of vectors etc. Integrated par support in some of the algorithms. I also have work going on to enhance the transient support, and a possible new ref type, which interestingly go together very nicely
15:08	rhickey	cinc can use protocols for its abstractions
15:08	rhickey	there is simply a ton to do
15:09	chouser	which is amazing considering Clojure is already more than holding its own
15:10	rhickey	yes, its a good feeling that it can be both useful and growing
15:10	rhickey	without a real tension between the two
15:10	LauJensen	uuuh that sounds interesting - transients connected with refs?
15:11	rhickey	but some of these steps might be (at least temporary) disruptive
15:11	chouser	I'm thinking specifically of our codebase at work, where for any given module we can currently pretty easily choose between C++, Clojure, Java, and JRuby. Clojure doesn't feel fractionally mature compared to C++.
15:12	rhickey	many of these things go into the 'perf-enhancing' category, even par
15:12	rhickey	but that fits with make-it-right-then-make-it-fast
15:12	chouser	deftype/protocol is not entirely in that category
15:12	rhickey	LauJensen: yeah, a bit too early for me to talk about it
15:13	LauJensen	Ok
15:13	rhickey	chouser: no, definitely not, they are important for abstraction, and that was a deficit area
15:13	rhickey	chouser: ^^ that's agreeing
15:13	chouser	:-) yes.
15:14	headius	make-it-fast is an endless life-sucker
15:14	rhickey	there are so many interesting areas for Clojure. Using deftype+protocols should be an important next step
15:15	drewr	I'm looking forward to deftype/proto being canonized in clojure's core; I feel like I can't get a good head model going
15:15	rhickey	headius: micro-optimization, yes, much of this is macro
15:16	rhickey	drewr: protocols are substantially the way I used interfaces in Clojure's core JAva stuff, the mapping will be very transparent
15:16	danlei	quick question: I read that add-classpath will be removed in 1.1, what is the preferred way to change the cp dynamically now?
15:17	danlei	(repl use only, I'm aware that add-classpath shouldn't have been used in "real" code)
15:18	chouser	with protocols in place, the two areas I'd still love to see are weaknesses that come with the JVM and lack of compile-time correctness checking.
15:18	hiredman	danlei: try out http://gist.github.com/255766
15:18	rhickey	danlei: I'm hoping for a contribution that provides repl/interactive dynamic classpath using java.system.class.loader
15:18	rhickey	hiredman: I find that bewildering
15:19	danlei	thanks hiredman & rich
15:19	fogus	chouser: weaknesses? like lack of fixnum?
15:19	hiredman	yeah, I should put a newer version with nicer macros
15:20	hiredman	it's more or less http://gist.github.com/251980
15:20	hiredman	generated via asm and stuffed in a jar for your classloading pleasure
15:20	chouser	fogus: I suppose, though what hurts me more often are startup time and deployment complexity (classpaths, lein resorting to python for installation, etc.)
15:21	fogus	chouser: what I mean by that is weaknesses in that category. fixnum, tco, etc...
15:21	fogus	chouser: ahhh, nevermnd I see
15:21	fliebel	How do I set warn-on-reflection and friends? Just using def returns all sorts of errors.
15:21	chouser	I suppose a different jvm could potentially solve all those problems for a wider variety of languages.
15:21	the-kenny	fliebel: set!
15:22	chouser	...but I'm more interested in cinc, to solve all those problem and many others, if only for Clojure.
15:23	chouser	I would simply love for target platform requirements to (almost) never be a reason to not use Clojure.
15:23	fliebel	the-kenny: thanks
15:23	chouser	need to write a bit of logic in your auto-configuring browser proxy rules? Good thing Clojure compiles to javascript...
15:24	chouser	need to customize an app that is scritable only via lua? Clojure seqs and immutable collections are still handy there.
15:25	fogus	Oh I see a lot of value in cinc... and compile-time correctness checking.
15:25	fliebel	chouser: clojure = js? what is cinc?
15:26	fogus	cinc -- allowing people to complain about lack of tco across multiple platforms!
15:27	rhickey	fogus: yes, spread the blame :)
15:27	fogus	;)
15:28	notostraca	so you can get clojure to compile to JS now? using what, GWT or something?
15:28	fogus	I had an interesting question on my blog that I have not had time to think about... basically, the question was "what does :pre :post buy us above `(assert)`?"
15:28	the-kenny	notostraca: There are some small libraries.
15:29	the-kenny	Macros in clojure make translating clojure to * very easy
15:29	cemerick	fogus: idioms are good :-)
15:29	notostraca	i would like to see clojure-> haXe myself
15:29	fogus	fliebel: http://blog.n01se.net/?p=41 cinc
15:30	fogus	cemerick: ?
15:30	rhickey	fogus: also documentation, and perhaps amenable to automatic use (in test generation etc)
15:30	cemerick	fogus: :pre and :post provide standard hooks for 99.5% of all assert usage
15:30	ska2342	I keep asking myself whether Clojure will still be a Java-library, too after CINC is complete.
15:31	rhickey	ska2342: what do you mean by that?
15:31	cemerick	insofar as asserts define the "contract" of a fn, providing them in predefined slots is a good thing
15:32	ska2342	rhickey: people keep talking about how easy it is to call Java from Clojure, but the other way round (without using Compiler and Clojure-source-strings) is very interesting, too.
15:32	chouser	using assert instead of :pre is usually pretty straightforward, if you had to do it. Using assert instead of :post is a pain.
15:32	rhickey	ska2342: that will be just as easy - that's why protocols have a mapping to interfaces
15:33	fliebel	the-kenny: how does that set! thing work? (set! warn-on-reflection true) gives me an exception.
15:33	ska2342	rhickey: what about IDE support, will they need to have some Java _sources_ hanging around or are they doing everything via introspection?
15:33	fogus	all of that RE :pre :post sounds like a reasonable response. Is there anything that :pre :post provide (besides test gen, etc...) that assert cannot?
15:33	notostraca	i second fliebel's question
15:34	the-kenny	fogus: It's used exactly like this
15:34	the-kenny	(in the repl)
15:35	rhickey	fogus: potentially pre and post conditions could come from somewhere other than where the body does
15:36	ska2342	as a sidenote: I really like that line "Clojure is a library, too", sounds even better in German :-)
15:36	rhickey	ska2342: the IDEs are working with Clojure source already
15:37	fliebel	the-kenny: (set! warn-on-reflection true) is what's on the java-interop page, but that gives me a java.lang.IllegalStateException
15:38	ska2342	rhickey: I have a feeling that it would be good to maintain that feature. But then, what I do know... I do fully trust you on this.
15:39	rhickey	ska2342: there will be no reduction in interop either way
15:39	ska2342	rhickey: cool
15:39	fogus	rhickey: "somewhere other than where the body does" which is exactly what my post is meant to show... even if I couldn't elucidate it that clearly. Thanks
15:40	joshua-choi	I'm trying to figure out the new syntax for implementing protocols directly inside a deftype
15:40	joshua-choi	user=> (defprotocol A (a [x y]))
15:40	joshua-choi	A
15:40	joshua-choi	user=> (deftype B A (a [x y] [x y]))
15:40	joshua-choi	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:40	joshua-choi	Am I doing something incorrectly?
15:40	rhickey	joshua-choi: you need a vector for fields
15:41	rhickey	(deftype B [] A ...
15:41	joshua-choi	I forgot about that
15:41	joshua-choi	But it still doesn't work for me
15:41	joshua-choi	(deftype B [] A (a [x y] [x y]))
15:41	joshua-choi	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: a (NO_SOURCE_FILE:3)
15:41	rhickey	joshua-choi: now you have one too many args
15:41	joshua-choi	In deftype?
15:41	rhickey	x becomes the target object and is not in the sig
15:41	joshua-choi	Ah
15:41	rhickey	in the deftype, yes
15:42	rhickey	if you want to refer to it, use :as this
15:42	KirinDave	rhickey: So… have you written up a "When to use deftype and when not to?"
15:42	rhickey	(deftype B [] :as this A (a [y] [this y]))
15:43	joshua-choi	Excellent, thank you
15:43	LauJensen	rhickey: Out of curiosity: How much time do you find to code in Clojure these days, is it mostly Java?
15:44	fanatico	Anyone have any experience access scala code from clojure?
15:45	liebke	rhickey: you mean, you code in Java, so we don't have to :)
15:45	rhickey	liebke: both
15:46	rhickey	but the former is more paradoxical
15:47	liebke	:)
15:48	rhickey	Clojure is now poised to wrest itself from Java
15:51	LauJensen	cinc coming close to completion ?
15:51	rhickey	LauJensen: cinc coming close to beginning
15:51	LauJensen	Well excuse me for waking up :)
15:54	fogus	fanatico; yes
15:54	danlarkin	It's too bad there's no "h" we can add to the end of cinc. I would like it to be a word, that would be fun
15:54	LauJensen	curte :)
15:54	LauJensen	cute :)
15:56	fanatico	fogus: great. I'm trying to use the knockoff markdown library. How would I access a singleton from clojure?
15:57	rhickey	KirinDave: I haven't, I'm not sure there are many prohibitions at this point
15:58	KirinDave	rhickey: I guess I am still struggling to follow what problems you were trying to solve outside of an underlying method to implement some stuff in clojure that was currently in java.
15:59	fogus	fanatico: Do you mean a Scala object?
15:59	fanatico	fogus: yeah.
15:59	rhickey	KirinDave: he problems I solved with Java - how to implement abstraction such as Clojure's ISeq, Associative, Collections, IRef etc
15:59	rhickey	the problems
16:00	fogus	fanatico: what is happening when you try?
16:01	rhickey	Clojure depends on there being a high performance polymorphism substrate in the host, but didn't integrate it, instead used it directly in host lang
16:01	hiredman	for something on the surface appears be more like Java, Scala code seems to go through much more mangling durring compiling
16:02	fanatico	fogus: it can't find the class.
16:03	fanatico	a Test object would be compiled into Test$.MODULES$, right?
16:04	hiredman	fanatico: #scala might know
16:06	fanatico	hiredman: I'll ask. The scala->java bridge doesn't seem that well documented.
16:08	cemerick	it's damn scary, at least the last time I had my head in there
16:10	gravity	the-kenny: The syntax moreso than the type system?
16:10	the-kenny	gravity: Not sure.
16:10	fogus	after a year and a half of writing scala i can say that the syntax.... uhhhh, grows on you
16:11	the-kenny	gravity: I'm parentophile
16:11	gravity	heh
16:11	hiredman	like a fungus?
16:11	fogus	:p
16:11	fliebel	Why does the reflection warning stop working when you're running from a jar? When I ran a script with the warnings turned on I was able to fix them, but lein won't let me put anything in a jar with that thing in it.
16:11	fogus	I've found scala's syntax to suffer from C++'s 20% problem
16:11	hiredman	fliebel: the reflection warning happens at compile time
16:12	hiredman	not runtime
16:12	cemerick	fogus: i.e. you need to make sure you stay away from the 20% that is incomprehensible?
16:12	fogus	fanatico: I can't find my notes! :( Help fail
16:13	technomancy	cemerick: ... and everyone has their own 20% =)
16:13	fliebel	hiredman: but can't compile just ignore it? It not very nice to have to edit code when switching from jar to clj.
16:13	saml	how can I execute external commands?
16:13	hiredman	fliebel: what do you mean?
16:13	cemerick	technomancy: right. I worry about that in clojure when I see discussions pro and con of pointfree vs. ->> and ->
16:13	fogus	cemerick: Given that there are typically 5 ways to do anything in scala, people tend to adopt their favorite way which tends to not be "your" way
16:14	fanatico	The type system is insanely complex, but I haven't seen much production code that using the scarier parts. I wonder if it'll end up like C++, where there are a bunch of style guides that dictate which 60% of the language is usable, and they all disagree.
16:14	fliebel	hiredman: that it does not compile as long as that line is in there...
16:14	hiredman	fliebel: clojure always compiles
16:14	hiredman	clojure is never interpreted
16:14	fliebel	hiredman: huh?
16:14	gravity	Perl managed to get a set of best practices that are being widely used, and they use code analysis to enforce it. I could see Scala going that way.
16:14	hiredman	ah
16:14	hiredman	I see
16:15	fogus	fanatico: my point exactly. ;)
16:15	hiredman	I understand
16:15	hiredman	fliebel: you can only use set! if a binding has been setup for that var
16:16	hiredman	which the repl code does for warn-on-reflection
16:16	fliebel	ah...
16:16	hiredman	so loading it outside of the repl will fail
16:16	hiredman	(which compiling does)
16:16	hiredman	aot compiling
16:17	fanatico	fogus: much nicer language than C++, but yeah, "multi-paradigm" is a scary description for a language.
16:17	fliebel	hiredman: ok, now I understand… are all those something repl-only?
16:17	hiredman	fliebel: the bindings for them are setup by the repl code
16:17	fogus	I can't complain though... I've enjoyed working with Scala... it makes my work life bearable
16:17	technomancy	I noticed in duck-streams there's a :tag "java.lang.Boolean"
16:18	technomancy	apart from the java.lang being redundant, is that a mistake?
16:18	technomancy	I mean, strings don't get eval'd in that context, right?
16:18	hiredman	technomancy: they do, if I recall
16:18	technomancy	interesting. what's the reasoning behind that?
16:19	technomancy	or is it just a historical quirk?
16:19	hiredman	useful historical quirk I think
16:19	technomancy	useful?
16:20	hiredman	you could do stuff like #^"[Ljava.lang.Object;"
16:20	hiredman	before there was support for #^objects
16:20	hiredman	still can do it for arbitrary array types
16:21	hiredman	hmmm
16:21	hiredman	java/lang/Object actually
16:22	technomancy	oh, I didn't realize you could use that notation
16:22	hiredman	so maybe that Boolean is a mistake?
16:22	technomancy	it looks so hideous I assumed it was garbage
16:22	technomancy	or garbled
16:22	hiredman	there are two representations for class names used in the jvm
16:22	cemerick	that string :tag trick is super-useful for type-hinting in macros
16:23	hiredman	java/lang/Object and Ljava/lang/Object;
16:23	hiredman	a [ preifx means array of that type
16:26	technomancy	is tagging vars like default-encoding actually helpful?
16:27	technomancy	I thought it was mostly recommended for function args/return values
16:34	q1	mmm i have an ArraySeq. tips on pulling out one particular index value, say 5.
16:37	neotyk	hiredman: thanks for pulling my changes
16:37	hiredman	just into a lien branch for now
16:37	q1	this seems to work, not sure it's the gbest way: (get (vec ArraySequence) 5)
16:37	arohner	q1: by arrayseq, you mean a java array you've run (seq) on?
16:38	q1	arohner: a return value from (re-split)
16:38	arohner	,(doc nth)
16:38	clojurebot	"([coll index] [coll index not-found]); Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out of bounds, nth throws an exception unless not-found is supplied. nth also works for strings, Java arrays, regex Matchers and Lists, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
16:38	q1	thanks
16:38	q1	Heh i'm pretty new. Still learning the core api.
16:38	arohner	np
16:39	neotyk	hiredman: thanks anyway, it is nice
16:40	drewr	joshua-choi: is json.clj based on fnparse 2.2.4 or 3.beta?
16:54	LauJensen	Did a small blogpost showing off a little emacs/compojure/clojureql cocktail http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/dynamic-interactive-webdevelopment/
17:13	joshua-choi	drewr: FnParse 2.2. 3.beta.2 is completely out of date; it was before I decided to split the library; don't touch it. :)
17:13	joshua-choi	I mean, 3.beta.0 and .1.
17:19	drewr	joshua-choi: ok, thanks!
17:21	neotyk	joshua-choi: did you have a chance to look at http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/issues/#issue/1
17:21	joshua-choi	Ah, yes, sorry for not replying yet
17:21	joshua-choi	I'm going to do that today
17:22	joshua-choi	I'll let you know when I do so
17:22	neotyk	joshua-choi: awesome!
17:42	durka42	LauJensen: awesome video
17:45	LauJensen	durka42: thanks :)
17:54	arohner	whee! I crashed my JVM with an infinite loop:
17:54	arohner	Invalid access of stack red zone 0x130648ce0 rip=0x12f185900
17:54	arohner	./start.sh: line 33: 20505 Bus error
18:32	arohner	I have an add-watch causing an infinite loop. I assume that would happen if my watch function triggers a modification to the ref it's watching, but I don't think that's the case. Can anything else cause it?
18:33	arohner	my watch function doesn't update the ref it's watching, but does update other refs.
18:49	neotyk	hiredman: I get NPE in clojurebot.clj:22 clojurebot.clj:20 can you help?
18:51	jweiss	bah, i can never remember how to convert :blah to "blah"
18:51	jweiss	,(str :blah)
18:51	clojurebot	":blah"
18:51	jweiss	doesn't work...
18:52	tolstoy	,(name :blah)
18:52	clojurebot	"blah"
18:53	jweiss	tolstoy: great, thanks
18:53	hiredman	neotyk: yes
18:54	neotyk	hiredman: seems like props file is missing
18:54	hiredman	yes
18:54	hiredman	clojurebot doesn't come with the properties file
18:55	neotyk	ha, now it does with template with dummy values
18:55	neotyk	but lein is not adding resoures to classpath
18:55	hiredman	right
18:55	neotyk	i mean my fork does
18:55	hiredman	what?
18:55	neotyk	it has dummy prop file
18:56	hiredman	last I heard lein had a bug where it was not adding ./resources to the classpath
18:58	liebke`	AAAAA
18:59	liebke`	oops :)
18:59	hiredman	?
19:02	neotyk	hiredman: it has to be something with lein uberjar, as if I start manually with src and resources in classpath i have next error
19:02	hiredman	maybe the uberjar sets the classpath internally
19:04	neotyk	hiredman: I think it is dependent task of uberjar: compile that does it wrong
19:04	hiredman	oh, when building the uberjar you get the exception?
19:05	neotyk	when "lein uberjar"
19:05	neotyk	but at compilation phase
19:05	hiredman	you are going to have issues with aot'ing clojurebot to begin with
19:05	hiredman	because clojure's compiler runs every thing as it compiles
19:05	neotyk	what is aot'ing?
19:05	hiredman	ahead of time
19:05	hiredman	ahead of time compiling
19:06	neotyk	so probably leiningen was not that good idea to start with
19:06	neotyk	as part of it's build process is compilation
19:07	hiredman	well clojurebot can be alterd
19:07	hiredman	compilation is overrated to begin with
19:07	hiredman	lein needs a "just jar up the clojure src" target
19:08	neotyk	agree
19:08	technomancy	that'll be default for the jar task in the next version
19:09	the-kenny	awesome :)
19:10	hiredman	and /bin/sh right?
19:10	hiredman	:P
19:10	technomancy	sure
19:16	hiredman	neotyk: anyway, you don't actually need a clojurebot.clj to launch clojurebot, it's just how I do it
19:16	hiredman	you can also leave clojurebot.clj out of the src/
19:17	neotyk	it is very useful for me, I'm also learning clojure at-the-same-time
19:17	kylesmith	pdk: ping
19:18	kylesmith	wavis: ping
19:18	fanatico	Is there a way to get more debugging information from `import`?
19:18	wavis	kylesmith:ack
19:18	hiredman	neotyk: more or less what clojurebot was(is?) for me
19:18	hiredman	fanatico: not really
19:18	hiredman	what import does is actually very simple
19:19	kylesmith	wavis: sorry, I had to leave before. http://github.com/fakejennick/gp
19:19	hiredman	usually in a namespace a symbol foo/bar will map to var #'foo/bar
19:20	hiredman	(import '(foo bar)) maps the symbol bar in the namespace to the class foo.bar
19:20	fanatico	hiredman: http://pastebin.ca/1725466
19:21	wavis	kylesmith:thanks! can't look much at the moment, but I have to do some ga at some point in the near future so I will
19:21	hiredman	fanatico: not going to fly
19:21	neotyk	hiredman: bot got connected :D
19:21	hiredman	you had better put the class in a package
19:21	hiredman	:D
19:21	kylesmith	wavis: cool. let me know what you think.
19:22	hiredman	(import (HelloWorld)) is also not correct (but using classes that are not in packages is a bad idea)
19:22	kylesmith	wavis: I also have a wrapper for Jgap
19:22	hiredman	should be something like (import HelloWorld)
19:23	wavis	kylesmith: didn't even know about jgap. cool!
19:23	hiredman	(import (HelloWorld)) imports no classes from the non-existant package HelloWorld
19:23	hiredman	the syntax is (import (PackageName ClassName1 ClassName2))
19:31	fanatico	hiredman: thanks. got it working.
19:39	fanatico	scala interop works!
19:39	fanatico	user=> (.toString (DefaultDiscounter/toXML (DefaultDiscounter/knockoff "_hello_ world")))
19:39	fanatico	"<p><em>hello</em> world</p>"
19:44	jweiss	i could have sworn there is a shorthand for (not (nil? x)) somewhere
19:45	jweiss	not the easiest thing to find
19:45	jweiss	or maybe i am imagining it? (not-nil? x)?
19:47	chouser	usually you'd just say x
20:00	q1	any tips on applying a case insensitive regex?
20:02	danlarkin	#"(?i)foo"
20:02	q1	ah ha! thank you.
20:02	jkoppel	What's the best way to write a macro foo such that (foo a) expands to (baz (bar ~a))?
20:03	jkoppel	(defmacro [a] `(baz (bar ~~a))) gives me errors, though I think something similar works in CL
20:05	slashus2	jkantz: Would (defmacro b [a] `(baz (bar ~'~a))) work?
20:06	jkoppel	Yes!
20:06	jkoppel	Thanks!
20:10	neotyk	good night
20:45	jweiss	given a fn, is it possible to get how many args it takes?
20:47	hiredman	,(->> (fn []) class .getMethods (map #(.getName %)))
20:47	clojurebot	("invoke" "compare" "applyTo" "withMeta" "withMeta" "call" "applyToHelper" "throwArity" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "invoke" "run" "meta" "wait" "wait" "wait" "hashCode" "getClass" "equals" "toString" "notify" "notifyAll")
20:47	hiredman	,(->> (fn []) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(.getName %)))
20:47	clojurebot	("invoke")
20:47	hiredman	,(->> (fn []) class .getDeclaredMethods first class .getMethods)
20:47	clojurebot	#<Method[] [Ljava.lang.reflect.Method;@6b0a6a>
20:47	hiredman	,(->> (fn []) class .getDeclaredMethods first class .getMethods (map #(.getName %)))
20:47	clojurebot	("invoke" "hashCode" "getModifiers" "equals" "toString" "getName" "isSynthetic" "getTypeParameters" "getDeclaringClass" "getAnnotation" "getDeclaredAnnotations" "getReturnType" "getParameterTypes" "toGenericString" "getGenericReturnType" "getGenericParameterTypes" "getExceptionTypes" "getGenericExceptionTypes" "isBridge" "isVarArgs" "getDefaultValue" "getParameterAnnotations" "isAnnotationPresent" "getAnnotations" "setAcc
20:48	hiredman	,(->> (fn []) class .getDeclaredMethods first .getTypeParameters)
20:48	clojurebot	#<TypeVariable[] [Ljava.lang.reflect.TypeVariable;@6a21b2>
20:48	hiredman	,(->> (fn []) class .getDeclaredMethods first .getTypeParameters count)
20:48	clojurebot	0
20:48	hiredman	,(->> (fn [x]) class .getDeclaredMethods first .getTypeParameters count)
20:48	clojurebot	0
20:48	hiredman	:\|
20:48	slashus2	:-(
20:49	hiredman	,(->> (fn [x]) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(.getParameterTypes %)))
20:49	clojurebot	(#<Class[] [Ljava.lang.Class;@8bca43>)
20:49	hiredman	,(->> (fn [x]) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))))
20:49	clojurebot	(1)
20:49	hiredman	,(->> (fn [x]) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))) (apply max))
20:49	clojurebot	1
20:49	hiredman	,(->> (fn [x y z]) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))) (apply max))
20:49	clojurebot	3
20:49	slashus2	yea
20:50	hiredman	jweiss: more or less
20:50	slashus2	would first work instead of (apply max)?
20:50	hiredman	,(->> (fn ([x]) ([x y z])) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))) (apply max))
20:50	clojurebot	3
20:51	hiredman	max arity
20:51	hiredman	,(->> (fn ([x]) ([x y z])) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))) (apply min))
20:51	clojurebot	1
20:51	hiredman	min arity
20:51	slashus2	I see
20:51	hiredman	,(->> (fn ([x]) ([x y z]) ([& m])) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))) (apply max))
20:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't have fixed arity function with more params than variadic function
20:51	hiredman	,(->> (fn ([x]) ([x y z]) ([a b c & m])) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(count (.getParameterTypes %))) (apply max))
20:51	clojurebot	4
20:51	hiredman	not quiet right
20:53	arohner	you can also get the arglist from the var's metadata. Of course, that only works if the fn is def'd
21:00	jweiss	hiredman: wow, that was a lot of work : ) thanks!
21:01	hiredman	restfns implement an extra method so you can check for that
21:01	hiredman	,(->> (fn [& x]) class .getDeclaredMethods (map #(.getName %)))
21:01	clojurebot	("getRequiredArity" "doInvoke")
21:01	hiredman	huh
21:01	hiredman	,(->> (fn [& x]) class .getRequiredArity))
21:01	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getRequiredArity for class java.lang.Class
21:02	hiredman	,(->> (fn [& x]) .getRequiredArity))
21:02	clojurebot	0
21:02	hiredman	,(->> (fn [a b]) .getRequiredArity))
21:02	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getRequiredArity for class sandbox$eval__4489$fn__4491
21:02	hiredman	:\|
21:18	arohner	gah, I want :pre and :post on anonymous functions
21:20	arohner	cool, it works
21:20	arohner	((fn [x] {:pre [(even? x)]} (* x x) ) 3)
21:20	arohner	,((fn [x] {:pre [(even? x)]} (* x x) ) 3)
21:20	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Assert failed: (even? x)
22:34	quizme_	hi
22:35	quizme_	can you have immutable objects in clojure ?
22:35	quizme_	i mean
22:35	quizme_	are user defined objects immutable in the same way lists are ?
22:36	quizme_	and if not, couldn't they be?
22:41	quizme_	i guess i mean struct maps
22:49	chouser	quizme_: struct maps are persistent (immutable) just like the other Clojure map types.
22:50	quizme_	i guess the reason i'm asking is that i'm just learning closure, and i'm coming from an oop background, so i'm trying to see if you can do everything in clojure that you can in oop in a concurrency-happy way.
22:52	quizme_	like basically simulate state variables with some kind of clojure map, then make dispatch methods that would operate on those struct maps in an analogous way to changing state.
22:53	quizme_	i have the feeling i'm saying a naughty word by saying "changing state"
22:53	JonSmith	in what context?
22:54	JonSmith	changing state is ok
22:54	gravity	clojure has tools (refs, atoms, agents) to deal with state, and they can handle a struct map just fine if you want
22:55	JonSmith	thinking about it, changing state is the whole point of a big chunk of the language :-P
22:56	arohner	quizme_: people build all kinds of useful programs in clojure. there are ways to accomplish everything you'd like. There's not always a direct translation from OOP, but the tools are there
22:58	quizme_	sorry. it's just hard to shake off 10 years of OOP dogma after reading half of a book on clojure.
22:58	JonSmith	does anyone have good 'high level' examples of generating (for example) HTML + CSS + Javascript (libraries tutorials etc.)
22:58	arohner	completely understandable
22:58	JonSmith	i know about scriptjure, compojure, clj-html, etc.
22:59	JonSmith	just wondering if anyone has written a wrapper-like framework that abstracts all of that away yet
22:59	JonSmith	or if there is something in another language i could leach ideas from
23:00	arohner	JonSmith: no, not yet
23:00	quizme_	JonSmith: openLaszlo exports to DHTML.
23:01	JonSmith	oh, this is interesting
23:03	chouser	JonSmith: maybe http://www.webtoolkit.eu/jwt ... I know some people have used it from Clojure
23:04	JonSmith	yeah, i will look through JWT and lazlo
23:05	hiredman	swing really is horrid
23:06	devlinsf	hiredman: why?
23:06	devlinsf	I kinda like it
23:07	mitchellh	Can anyone recommend some clojure libs or open source apps to study to get more familiar with the language?
23:08	hiredman	devlinsf: oh and I am just trying to beat it until it repaints right now
23:08	devlinsf	Oh
23:08	devlinsf	mitchellh: What're you trying to do?
23:08	devlinsf	hiredman: Yeah, repaint can be a pain
23:09	mitchellh	devlinsf: Anything, I just want to learn more about the "right way" to do things in clojure.
23:09	mitchellh	devlinsf: I just learned the syntax and read the prag prog book last week
23:09	mitchellh	devlinsf: just trying to get more experience
23:09	devlinsf	mitchellh: Pick a text file & parse it
23:09	JonSmith	I would suggest writing something
23:09	devlinsf	mitchellh: You know excel grunt work
23:09	mitchellh	heh
23:10	JonSmith	nah
23:10	JonSmith	do like
23:10	JonSmith	a blog or a twitter client
23:10	devlinsf	hiredman: It sucks that you have to know AWT & Swing, I agree
23:10	devlinsf	hiredman: I paid that price a long time ago, so I'm used to it
23:11	mitchellh	I'm also trying to figure out the proper way clojure libs/apps are built and deployed as well, I'm new to Java other than in an educational environment
23:11	devlinsf	mitchellh: Oh, okay. What environment are you used to coding in?
23:12	mitchellh	Mac with textmate or emacs
23:12	JonSmith	http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming is an ok place to start
23:12	devlinsf	mitchellh: Okay, do you have slime?
23:12	JonSmith	has a few examples (although some might be a bit old)
23:13	mitchellh	devlinsf: I don't
23:13	mitchellh	JonSmith: thanks
23:13	devlinsf	mitchellh Ah, get that. It'll help you experiment at the REPL
23:13	devlinsf	mitchellh: That's the #1 key to learning
23:13	mitchellh	Thanks, will do!
23:14	defn	can i use destructuring to take two sequences and turn it into a map?
23:15	defn	turn /them/ into a map
23:15	arohner	defn: no
23:15	defn	i seem to remember you could
23:15	devlinsf	defn: Use zipmap
23:16	devlinsf	,(zipmap [:a :b :c] [1 2 3])
23:16	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2, :a 1}
23:16	defn	ah, rad
23:16	defn	thanks man
23:16	devlinsf	n/p
23:17	chouser	mitchellh: I'd recommend reading the sources for clojure-contrib and clojure itself, to see how things are done. And projecteuler problems to build some familiarity with how to use Clojure to solve simple problems.
23:18	mitchellh	chouser: Thanks, that's a great idea
23:19	defn	i have two directories of files. one directory of files will have all possible filenames, and another directory will have only some of those filenames. what's the most efficient way to discover which examples exist in both locations?
23:19	devlinsf	defn: define efficient
23:20	devlinsf	defn: least code or best performance?
23:20	defn	the latter
23:20	devlinsf	Ah.
23:20	JonSmith	couldn't you make two sets
23:20	defn	i was thinking about creating a map
23:20	defn	oh duh, a set makes more sense
23:20	JonSmith	and do an intersection
23:20	JonSmith	:-)
23:20	defn	yes!
23:20	defn	brilliant!
23:20	JonSmith	!
23:20	defn	hehe, thanks
23:25	defn	night all
23:32	arohner	sigh. why do ints and longs have to hash differently?
23:32	arohner	especially given Object.hashCode returns an int?
23:35	fanatico	chouser: is 1.1.0 pretty much frozen now?
23:35	arohner	fanatico: yes
23:35	arohner	very minor changes between now and 1.1 official
23:41	interferon	if i have a function, can i get its source?
23:41	interferon	say, (something (fn [x] (+ x y)), and (defn something [f] (<source> f))
23:42	devlinsf	interferon: Nope
23:42	devlinsf	interferon: You could use a custom defn
23:46	interferon	thanks
23:46	arohner	interferon: you can get it from the var, but that won't work for anonymous functions
23:48	arohner	and if you really wanted, you can get the bytecode for the function
23:48	arohner	i've considered writing that
23:51	hiredman	(let [y (.getBounds jc)]
23:51	hiredman	(-> scroll .getViewport
23:51	hiredman	whoops
23:51	hiredman	(let [y (.getBounds jc)]
23:51	hiredman	(-> scroll .getViewport
23:51	hiredman	sorry
23:52	hiredman	http://paste.lisp.org/display/91148
23:52	hiredman	thats the one
23:55	fanatico	I've updated :pre and :post to print which condition failed, and what form caused the exception to be raised.
23:55	fanatico	previously: "Caused by: java.lang.Exception: Assert failed: (= % x)"
23:56	fanatico	now: "Caused by: java.lang.AssertionError: Postcondition failed when (bad-fn 2): (= % x)"
23:56	fanatico	thoughts?
23:56	devlinsf	fanatico: Awesome
23:56	devlinsf	fanatico: I didn't like that I couldn't tell which failed
23:57	fanatico	devlinsf: same here. I remember dismissing :pre and :post when they first were added for that exact reason.
23:58	tomoj	can anyone spot the problem with this ns declaration? https://gist.github.com/3cdad726f965d4793a07
23:59	devlinsf	fanatico: I know it came up on the list
23:59	tomoj	when I try to 'lein jar' I get "java.lang.IllegalStateException: bytes already refers to: #'clojure.contrib.http.agent/bytes in namespace: clojure.contrib.http.agent"
23:59	devlinsf	fanatico: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f20a8d42b2ae9093