#clojure – 2009-12-18

2009-12-18

00:20	scottj_	Am I missing something or does clojureql not have an equivalent of limit?
00:21	polypus	does the order of definition of defmethods have any effect on dispatch?
00:28	alexyk	how do you compare strings?
00:30	alexyk	,(< "a" "b")
00:30	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
00:30	kylesmith	,(.compareTo "a" "b")
00:30	clojurebot	-1
00:31	alexyk	thx!
00:32	alexyk	where does compareTo come from?
00:32	alexyk	ah, ok .
00:33	chouser	polypus: no, I don't think so.
00:33	chouser	polypus: if there's any ambiguity, it must be resolved with 'prefer'
00:34	alexyk	I compare pairs of form [string vector], by longer vectors first, then ties broken by alphabetic order of strings. This works but is ugly: (sort (fn [[k1 v1][k2 v2]] (let [len1 (count v1) len2 (count v2)] (if (> len1 len2) true (if (< len1 len2) false (.compareTo k1 k2))))) coll) ; ways to improve?
00:34	polypus	chouser: ty
00:38	chouser	alexyk: did you try a default sort?
00:39	alexyk	chouser: it does the opposite: by keys and small lengths
00:39	chouser	ah
00:39	alexyk	I'd reverse it. but then alphabetic order is broken
00:39	chouser	yes
00:43	chouser	maybe (sort (fn [[k1 v1][k2 v2]] (let [len1 (count v1) len2 (count v2) c1 (compare len1 len2)] (if (zero? c1) (compare k1 k2) c1))) coll)
00:43	chouser	hardly better though, if it even works
00:43	alexyk	chouser: cutier
00:46	chouser	(sort-by (fn [[k v]] [(- (count v)) k]) coll) ?
00:48	polypus	,(doc prefer)
00:48	clojurebot	I don't understand.
00:48	chouser	,(doc prefers)
00:48	clojurebot	"([multifn]); Given a multimethod, returns a map of preferred value -> set of other values"
00:48	chouser	,(doc prefer-method)
00:48	clojurebot	"([multifn dispatch-val-x dispatch-val-y]); Causes the multimethod to prefer matches of dispatch-val-x over dispatch-val-y when there is a conflict"
00:48	chouser	there it is. sorry.
00:49	chouser	alexyk: you saw that sort-by?
00:49	chouser	biab
00:49	alexyk	hah
00:49	polypus	no worries. i was wondering about the conflict bit. are you explicitly told by clojure aout conflicts?
00:50	polypus	s/aout/about
00:50	alexyk	interesting -- will try after re-vectoring seconds, they were seqs and it takes forever for counts to get retaken every time
00:58	defn	how do you use 1.1.0 with technomancy's swank?
01:10	scottj_	defn: copy it to ~/.swank-clojure/clojure-1.0.0.jar I think
01:11	defn	wish there was a way to choose
01:11	defn	or a var to set
01:36	chouser	polypus: yes, Clojure will complain when a multimethod is called if the dispatch result is ambiguous.
01:48	alexyk	is ArraySeq usually counted?
01:50	alexyk	I did (->> ... (frequencies) (sort) as the second component above, and it takes forever to sort with my comparator above taking (count <of that>). Should I have added ... (vector)?
01:51	alexyk	Without (vector), the type is ArraySeq; with (vector), it's PersistentVector. On both toy examples say counted? => true. I wonder what happens when they come from lazy data.
01:51	alexyk	I have 3.5 million pairs with those seconds, and it takes more than an hour already to sort.
02:06	polypus	chouser: ty
03:07	defn	is freenode still acting weird?
03:40	triyo	I see there is a bean function, is there a to-bean function of some sort that does the opposite?
04:01	LauJensen1	triyo: Did you look in contrib, there's a jmx module I think
04:02	LauJensen1	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/clojure/contrib/jmx.clj
04:03	triyo	LauJensen1: hmm, that mbeans. :)
04:04	LauJensen1	oh, sorry
04:04	triyo	no wrorries
05:45	octe	i was looking at http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/1.1.x/changes.txt but i don't see anythign about defmulti.. didn't the signature for it change?
05:45	octe	between 1.0 and 1.1
06:07	triyo	I'm confused, when is the right time/place to use the "do" form?
06:12	fanatico	when you're calling a function for its side effect, and want to return a different value.
06:13	Raynes	triyo: In places like an if expression, where you want to call functions for side effects, but want to return a different value than the one those functions return.
06:15	triyo	for example like this snippet: http://gist.github.com/259443 its nothing but full of side-effects... should there be a do there
06:15	Raynes	,(if false 3 (do (+ 2 2) (* 3 3) 5)) ; Useless example.
06:15	clojurebot	5
06:16	triyo	Raynes: if expression is the only place where I do know how to use it and where it makes sense
06:16	Raynes	If I don't /have/ to use it, I don't.
06:17	triyo	Raynes: for example, would you use it in my snippet gist above?
06:18	triyo	around the doto all way to the end
06:18	Raynes	Nope.
06:19	triyo	ok, thats the same feeling I had.. just trying to make sure I don't use it unnecessarily.
08:25	fliebel	Why doesn't Clojure have objects?
08:26	fogus	It has objects all over the place ;)
08:28	fliebel	like?
08:29	fogus	Do you mind rephrasing the question? Do you mean to ask why it's not object-oriented?
08:29	fliebel	You mean because every seq is in fact a java class?
08:29	fliebel	yea, that is more or less what I mean
08:31	fliebel	I understand it's not good from the functional immutable point of view, but I guess it would make java interop a lot easier.
08:33	karmazilla	dot-syntax is simple, calls into java are wrapper free, and it's easy to implement interfaces with proxy
08:33	fogus	RH has talked about this in many places, so I probably would not do him justice in paraphrasing. However, the basic point is that traditional OO is not conducive to concurrent programming.
08:34	fogus	fliebel: What do you see as the hard points on interop?
08:36	fliebel	fogus: Nothing specific… It's just that for me it's a pain to work with those java libraries. And since Clojure has almost no stdlib on its own, for almost any non trivial task you would have to do some java stuff…
08:39	fogus	fliebel: Without knowing your problem-space it's tough to know how interop is failing you, but I do not agree that interop is required outside of toy problems. There are countless examples of very tough problems solved by Clojure core libs alone.
08:41	fliebel	for example, this simple command: Runtime.getRuntime().exec("ls") translates into (.exec (java.lang.Runtime/getRuntime) "ls") and then I still have to find out how to create a reader to get the output…
08:42	fogus	fliebel: Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm not sure how Clojure being OO helps in this case
08:43	fliebel	fogus: not in this case, but then I never tried to write a Clojure applet…
08:43	karmazilla	fliebel: there's shell-out in contrib
08:44	fogus	What he said ^^^^^^
08:45	fliebel	karmazilla: I know...
08:46	chouser	I think Clojure not being object oriented is more about the idiomatic way to solve problems than it is about the lack of any particular feature.
08:47	fliebel	Okay, it might be a bad idea to go oo, but I do think java interop is a pain, at least for me it is.
08:49	karmazilla	"Runtime.getRuntime().exec("ls")" is more about Java inter-operating with C, isn't it?
08:51	karmazilla	so it's more like Java being a pain (and this pain leaking through in Clojure) than Java interop per se.
08:53	fliebel	karmazilla: that might be part of the problem...
08:57	fliebel	but why can't it be like ((java.lang.Runtime.getRuntime) exec "ls"), or whatever… just some more java-ish(without changing order and thinking about dot vs slash.)
09:01	fogus	fliebel: Clojure as a Lisp follows the prefix notation -- in the case of interop that function position is a method. It's a uniform syntax
09:04	Raynes	Clojure isn't supposed to be 'javaish'.
09:04	Raynes	It's quite a bit Clojureish.
09:17	murbank	Do chunked sequences make expressions no longer strictly lazy? So (take 5 (expensive-io-function-returning-seq)) might make more expensive io evaluations than strictly necessary?
09:25	chouser	murbank: possibly, but it's generally controlled by the seq-generator.
09:25	chouser	so if expensive-io-function-returning-seq knows it is expensive and laziness is important, it can simple return a non-chunked seq and all is well.
09:48	murbank	chouser: Are new "primitive" sequences chunked by default?
09:49	chouser	murbank: only a few are so far. seqs of vectors being the most notable. also 'range'
09:51	murbank	chouser: But the intention is that many more are to be added right?
09:51	chouser	I'm not sure. I wouldn't expect line-seq to go chuncked, for example. But I don't know of any specific plans one way or another.
10:14	fliebel	What is the correct way to send off some function for which I don't care about the return value? I guess it's something like an atom, agent, ref, whatever, but I don't really understand those.
10:22	chouser	fliebel: perhaps 'future'
10:23	rhickey	yes, future, just ignore its return
10:25	fliebel	thanks
10:36	rhickey	yay
10:36	stuartsierra	readme typo: missing colon after "To Run"
10:39	chouser	also in readme, under Futures "They are away" should be "a way"
10:39	stuartsierra	chouser: you mean changes.txt, right?
10:40	chouser	er. right.
10:41	stuartsierra	rhickey: mind if I fix up the formatting in changes.txt? Stuff like breaking lines at 70 characters.
10:42	rhickey	stuartsierra: no, go ahead, thanks
10:42	stuartsierra	ok
10:48	rhickey	stuartsierra: could you also add that add-watcher and remove-watcher are gone, but can be implemented in terms of add-watch and remove-watch?
10:48	stuartsierra	rhickey: sure
10:48	rhickey	thanks
10:49	chouser	Repl and Script are missing from Deprecated
10:51	stuartsierra	chouser: ok, will mention that too
11:07	stuartsierra	Can I associate a commit with multiple tickets?
11:11	chouser	I think so. Just list them all in the commit msg
11:11	stuartsierra	ok
11:12	stuartsierra	rhickey: done, #229 ready to test
11:55	efarrar	hello
11:55	rhickey	stuartsierra: your patch file seems to include some of my patches
11:56	stuartsierra	oh, drat, I patched from master, didn't I
11:56	rhickey	ah, yup
11:56	stuartsierra	ok, trying again...
11:56	rhickey	I've touched 1.1.x, so make sure you have the latest
11:57	stuartsierra	got ti
11:57	stuartsierra	got it
11:58	stuartsierra	rhickey: ok, new patch up
12:04	rhickey	stuartsierra: applied and pushed - thanks!
12:04	stuartsierra	You're welcome!
12:41	cemerick	stuartsierra: I must be missing something about the complexity of integrating JUnit <-> clojure.test. Isn't it just a matter of generating one JUnit testcase that straps up clojure.test?
12:43	stuartsierra	cemerick: If you only want a single pass/fail for all your Clojure tests, yes.
12:44	cemerick	oh, you're aiming for full correspondence in the resulting report
12:45	stuartsierra	Otherwise, what's the point?
12:46	cemerick	well, the OP in that thread was just looking to have the clojure tests invoked as part of the default test run. I didn't think proper correspondence was an objective.
12:46	stuartsierra	I suppose so.
12:46	chouser	I'm useing clojure.test inside a junit suite in clojure
12:47	stuartsierra	chouser: how?
12:47	chouser	top-level java file for the annotation stuff
12:48	chouser	then a macro that does gen-class for one junit test per clojue.test fn
12:48	stuartsierra	Ah, I see.
12:48	chouser	the reports aren't terribly pretty
12:48	chouser	I've been hoping to look at the new junit stuff for clojure.test
12:48	stuartsierra	It's in 1.1; haven't played with it much myself.
12:48	cemerick	I guess I have really low expectations for test reporting. :-)
12:49	jasapp	does anyone know if there is anything like CL's hyperspec-lookup for clojure?
12:49	the-kenny	jasapp: (doc fun)
12:50	stuartsierra	Not quite the same.
12:50	stuartsierra	There's a javadoc lookup function in contrib.
12:51	jasapp	I have the javadoc lookup, and it's nice
12:51	jasapp	I was just looking for something similar for clojure
12:51	stuartsierra	(doc f) gets you the same thing as the Clojure API docs, except for special forms.
12:51	clojurebot	Excuse me?
12:52	jasapp	ok
12:52	jasapp	I'm not sure why I didn't think of that
12:52	replaca	jasapp: find-doc also exists
12:52	replaca	when you don't know the exact form
12:52	cemerick	this is interesting: http://code.google.com/p/terrastore/
12:52	replaca	*symbol name
12:53	replaca	rhickey: are you in channel?
12:54	rhickey	replaca: yup
12:55	replaca	rhickey: so I was thinking that since autodoc doesn't support branches yet, I could do a stopgap by putting the 1.1 doc up on tomfaulhaber.github.com/clojure and then we'd have poor man's branch support
12:55	replaca	how's that sound?
12:56	replaca	(not that master and 1.1 have diverged yet) :)
12:58	rhickey	replaca: the API doc was always advertised as being about the latest, I'm ok with that until we have branch support
12:59	rhickey	we can work on putting metadata for :introduced-in for 1.2+
12:59	hiredman_	I thought the api was always advertised as being about the release
13:00	replaca	rhickey: ok, cool. I'll relax about that then. I think I'm about a month away from branch support (I'm doing some cleanup and trying to turn autodoc into a library that others can use right now)
13:00	replaca	hiredman_: I'm not sure we made any declaration at all :)
13:00	chouser	replaca: I noticed that the namespace is in both the path and the fragment of the doc urls
13:01	rhickey	the clojure.org API page always said latest
13:01	replaca	chouser: I don't understand what you mean?
13:01	hiredman_	ok
13:01	replaca	chouser: oh, yeah I do. Yeah, that's probably unnecessary
13:02	replaca	"for historical reasons"
13:02	replaca	:-0
13:02	replaca	:)
13:04	replaca	rhickey: I should probably add some words to the top of the API page emphasizing that this documents the master branch
13:06	rhickey	used to say: "It is generated from the source and reflects the current SVN version."
13:06	replaca	I'll add similar verbiage for the moment
13:14	rowth	llastlog changes
13:14	rowth	gah, sorry
13:19	replaca	rhickey: how about :introduced-in and :modified-in so that we can reflect APIs that have changed reasonably (:modified-in could be a vector)
13:21	rhickey	replaca: they sound fine, if somewhat verbose
13:22	replaca	rhickey: yeah, I have no strong opinion on the names. whatever feels easiest to you when working on core.clj
13:41	bagucode	technomancy: ping
13:55	StartsWithK	gen-class will lift all constructors from the base class, is this feature of any use to any one?
13:56	hiredman_	lift?
13:56	StartsWithK	copy contructor signatures to gen-classed class
13:56	technomancy	bagucode: pong
13:57	StartsWithK	i was doing a sketch for joint java-clojure compiler (like the one groovy has) so first step is to generate .java stubs for all gen-class classes
13:57	StartsWithK	then i would compile java side with them, remove stubs and recompile clojure part
13:58	StartsWithK	this way in the same compile module you can have java side using clojure generated classes and clojure depending on java side
13:59	StartsWithK	the problem is constructor lifting, i can't generate the stub if the base is still in .java file
13:59	hiredman_	hmmm
13:59	StartsWithK	at least i can't generate correct constructors
13:59	bagucode	technomancy: hey. I just sent you a bunch of github noob messages :) I'm curious about some common practices and stuff.
14:00	technomancy	bagucode: this is a pretty good overview of how I like to keep feature work in a separate branch until it's ready: http://wiki.github.com/dchelimsky/rspec/topic-branches
14:01	hiredman_	gen-class in generally is kind of distasteful, I'm not sure why it does the lifting, must be something to do with the init stuff on the clojure side
14:01	StartsWithK	so, maybe lifting could be removed in favore of explicit constructor declaration
14:01	StartsWithK	joint java -clojure compiler imho is bether option to have
14:01	technomancy	bagucode: thanks for the patches; I hope to have time to look at them soon.
14:03	StartsWithK	yes, and i think there were several reports of gen-classes class not working, it happened i think when lifted constructor clashed with custom declaration or something like that
14:05	chouser	Aren't the ctors are lifted so you can dynamically add functionality?
14:05	bagucode	technomancy: Thanks. I'll read up on that link. My master now is just the first change I did to compile.clj to support native code. I didn't want to touch that again until you had a look at it and maybe merged it to leiningen proper so I made a new branch for the generic os detection support and passing of jvm flags to a forked process. Guess I got that right then :)
14:06	chouser	StartsWithK: like :init and :post-init
14:06	technomancy	bagucode: sounds like a winner.
14:06	StartsWithK	chouser: i don't know why is it doing it, but, couldn't you have same effect with manual lifting
14:06	stuartsierra	Yes, the gen-class'd constructor needs to call init, set up state, etc.
14:07	StartsWithK	hmm
14:08	StartsWithK	but still, :constructor could be made explicit and mandatory in all cases
14:08	stuartsierra	That would be a nuisance.
14:08	StartsWithK	for what?
14:08	stuartsierra	Me. ;)
14:08	StartsWithK	i't looks like most gen-class is used to generate beans or similar things for servlets and such
14:09	StartsWithK	and they need default ctor to work
14:10	StartsWithK	if one could simply drop bunch of java scala and clojure file in same src/ dir and just complile them without any extra work on his part
14:10	StartsWithK	that would be a huge benefit for ide makers
14:11	stuartsierra	Not gonna happen any time soon.
14:11	StartsWithK	groovy can do that, and they now have joint java/scala/groovy compiler, scala has joint java/scala compiler
14:11	StartsWithK	only thing stoping clojure from this is ctor lifting
14:12	stuartsierra	Do they generate stub .java source? That's the part that sounds weird to me.
14:12	StartsWithK	stuartsierra: goovy generates stubs, scala generates bytecode
14:12	StartsWithK	r*
14:12	StartsWithK	my java/clojure compiler works like groovy implementation
14:13	StartsWithK	its a three stage compilation, but is fully automatic and transparent for the user
14:13	hiredman_	I think the real issue is that clojure's compiler is same world and loads all the code it generates
14:14	stuartsierra	Yes, so you always have to compile Java code first.
14:14	StartsWithK	hiredman_: not a problem realy, only thing needed is to load .clj manualy, macroexpand while counting gen-class and gen-interface (deftype in new branc) as special forms
14:14	StartsWithK	then collect bodies of gen-class declarations
14:15	hiredman_	StartsWithK: well then do that
14:15	hiredman_	if it is such a not a problem
14:15	stuartsierra	But gen-class is a function - it can be called anywhere, any time.
14:15	StartsWithK	stuartsierra: yes, java must be compiled first
14:15	StartsWithK	its a macro, and it will not do anything if compile-files is not true
14:16	stuartsierra	But how can you do macroexpansion without evaluating code?
14:17	chouser	we have a dependency chain like this java -> clojure -> java -> C++
14:17	chouser	is that what you're looking for?
14:17	StartsWithK	i can't, but i don't need to do much, most thing are simple ignored (like (new Foo) will never be called)
14:18	StartsWithK	chouser: something like that, but lets saj Foo.java will use Bar that is gen-classed, and Baz.java will use Bar, and you have them in the same lib
14:18	hiredman_	if clojure's compiler did not try to load java classes it would be possible to compile clojure first
14:19	StartsWithK	joint compiler will resolve that without any problems
14:19	stuartsierra	But what you're proposing is not really a joint compiler, just running separate compilers in a particular order.
14:19	StartsWithK	well that is what joint compiler does
14:20	stuartsierra	I think a joint compiler would have to understand both Java and Clojure syntax, so it can resolve symbols in both languages.
14:20	StartsWithK	hiredman_: it can work, no code will be executed, only evaluated, but the problem is, you can't know ctor of a class that is not compiled jet, so stub can't be generated
14:21	StartsWithK	not realy, it only needs to provide all the classes from both laguages when they are doing there compile phase
14:22	StartsWithK	(in compiled form or as stubs)
14:22	chouser	wait, you're trying to make gen-class work on a class that doesn't exist yet?
14:22	chouser	I mean, extending a class that doesn't exist yet
14:22	StartsWithK	yes, yes
14:22	chouser	the ctor is the least of your problems.
14:22	StartsWithK	it will be compiled by the java compiler
14:23	StartsWithK	ctor is my only problem :)
14:23	chouser	gen-class generates a method for every public method of every class it's extending
14:24	StartsWithK	uff
14:25	StartsWithK	with the same signature as the base?
14:26	StartsWithK	then that is not the problem i think
14:26	StartsWithK	as all publics from base would be visible any way
14:26	StartsWithK	but ctors would not be lifted
14:26	chouser	not if base doesn't exist
14:27	chouser	how do you discover the public methods of a non-existant class?
14:27	chouser	conversly, why is the solution we're already using insufficient such that all this effort is required?
14:27	StartsWithK	i don't, but i dont care, it must be in class path, on it must be in javac stage compiled with other classes
14:28	StartsWithK	i only need to generate stub "public Foo extend Bar .." as a string and save it in .java file for javac consumation
14:28	StartsWithK	class*
14:35	StartsWithK	this is http://is.gd/5sFXc explanation of hov groovy will do it, process is simple and it works on clojure if stub that is generated dosn't lift any ctors from the base class when :constructors in not defined
14:36	chouser	if you have each module declare its dependencies, then there is no problem at all, things just get built in the right order.
14:36	stuartsierra	Mixed-language projects are hard enough without cyclical dependencies.
14:36	StartsWithK	sure, if you want to place Foo.java in one module bar.clj in another and Baz.java in third and do manula dependency resolvig that way
14:37	headius	http://weblogs.java.net/blog/forax/archive/2009/12/18/tailcall-anyone
14:38	StartsWithK	stuartsierra: yes, so maybe it could get easier with things like this
14:38	headius	should take you guys about 5 minutes to toss the extra bytecode in
14:38	stuarthalloway	groovy: undisputed champ for those who like cross-language cyclical dependencies :-)
14:39	StartsWithK	circular dependency can't be resolved in any language, so it will fail as usual
14:39	StartsWithK	joint compiler is not a wizzard
14:40	technomancy	headius: yow! what are the chances of that getting mainlined?
14:40	headius	I feel like there's a good chance
14:40	chouser	headius: how many -to-JVM-bytecode compilers do you have your fingers in?
14:40	headius	given the pushback to late 2010
14:40	technomancy	talking with John Rose at JRubyconf made me think odds weren't good, but that seemed to be only due to a lack of manpower. if the code's there and working...
14:40	headius	chouser: um...three or four of my own making, is that what you mean?
14:40	headius	technomancy: exactly
14:41	chouser	headius: heh. yeah.
14:41	headius	it wouldn't just be useful for FP either...we could eliminate pure overhead" stack frames from our call stacks with it
14:41	StartsWithK	stuarthalloway: scala suports joint java/scala compilation too
14:41	headius	reflection could emit wide opcodes to remove themselves from backtraces
15:03	somnium	is there a particular function/method to call that coverts '? to _QMARK_
15:05	hiredman_	somnium: it's in the compiler
15:05	chouser	,(clojure.lang.Compiler/munge "true?")
15:05	clojurebot	"true_QMARK_"
15:05	somnium	munge!
15:05	somnium	awesome, thanks
15:05	hiredman_	what does the "wide" bytecode instruction do?
15:05	stuartsierra	The most important function after "foo".
15:14	hiredman_	clojurebot: unix?
15:14	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:14	hiredman_	clojurebot: unix is<reply>it's a UNIX system! I know this!
15:15	hiredman_	clojurebot: unix is <reply>it's a UNIX system! I know this!
15:15	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
15:15	clojurebot	This is a test.
15:16	scellus	,(sort [5 4 3 2 1 Float/NaN 1 2 3 4 5])
15:16	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 NaN 1 2 3 4 5)
15:17	scellus	(not totally unheard of, python is similar)
15:19	doublindirection	how does clojure handle uncaught exceptions? they do not seem to "bubble up" to the repl
15:19	hiredman_	I really don't understand Compiler.java
15:20	chouser	doublindirection: I think they do bubble up to the repl. what are you seeing?
15:20	hiredman_	doublindirection: it depends on the context
15:20	hiredman_	threads/agents/etc
15:21	doublindirection	nothing unless I add a (try catch) and printing it
15:21	doublindirection	but it is happening in a thread ...
15:21	the-kenny	doublindirection: Exceptions aren't thrown across threads
15:21	the-kenny	They pop up in the inferior lisp buffer if you use swank-clojure
15:22	the-kenny	Exceptions in the repl-thread pop up in the repl
15:22	hiredman_	,(future (throw (Exception.)))
15:22	clojurebot	#<core$future_call$reify__7719@1f87b38: :pending>
15:22	hiredman_	…
15:22	the-kenny	,(throw (Exception.)
15:22	clojurebot	EOF while reading
15:22	the-kenny	,(throw (Exception.))
15:22	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception
15:22	doublindirection	i looked in the inferior lisp, nothing there
15:23	doublindirection	but it has to do with the threading
15:23	chouser	right, exceptions aren't printed by default except in a repl thread.
15:24	chouser	so if you start your own thread and throw something there, you won't find out about it automatically.
15:24	chouser	depending on how you start the thread, clojure may have some handy ways for you to find out about the exception.
15:25	the-kenny	chouser: Huh? Exceptions thrown in some thread pop up in my inferior lisp
15:25	doublindirection	the thread is a jms onMessage handler, who knows what happens
15:26	chouser	the-kenny: I don't use emacs. But if you do (def x (future (throw (Exception.)))) you see that exception?
15:26	the-kenny	chouser: wait
15:27	doublindirection	exception does not show in my emacs
15:27	the-kenny	chouser: No, but (.start (Thread. #(throw (Exception.))) pops up in inferior lisp
15:27	the-kenny	Maybe futures are handled differently?
15:28	chouser	the-kenny: hm, I guess you're right.
15:30	hiredman_	you can set an exception handler for threads
15:30	hiredman_	possibly the execturor future uses sets one
15:34	Licenser_	aloa
15:38	jweiss	i am looking for some macro examples that might help me - i write test automation software which requires me to support lots of different versions of our product. so my code (java) inevitably has lots of subclasses and overrides. i imagine the (a?) clojure way to do this is just patch the code with a macro? is there another way?
15:39	stuartsierra	jweiss: Dynamic binding.
15:42	jweiss	stuartsierra: what about the case in java where i just want to override one line of a method, so i abstract it out into a protected method and override that method?
15:43	defn	doug mcillroy patented macros
15:43	defn	he also could set file permissions with a magnet and a pin
15:45	stuartsierra	same thing, just override a function with a different binding
15:46	jweiss	stuartsierra: i was hoping not to have to give these functions names. since they wouldn't be their own function if it wasn't for the needing to override it
15:47	hiredman_	defn: asm macros maybe
15:47	cp2	defn: what a noob, real programmers use C-x M-c M-butterfly
15:47	jweiss	was thinking of a form like (deprecated x y z) where x y z are the things i'm changing
15:47	jweiss	or maybe deprecated is not the right name, but you get the idea
15:47	the-kenny	cp2: Hah... I love to hang out with people who understand this joke :D
15:48	cp2	^_^
15:48	stuartsierra	jweiss: Well, you can't really change something unless you can refer to it...
15:49	jweiss	stuartsierra: yeah i meant i'd mark it my enclosing it in another form, and then a macro could replace the form with a new one
15:49	jweiss	s/my/by/
15:49	stuartsierra	got to go
15:50	jweiss	k
15:52	defn	cp2: hehe check out: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sinclair/doug/
15:52	defn	Doug McIlroy can address 8 terabytes of RAM with only 32 bits
15:53	defn	and RE: ASM macros: Doug McIlroy thinks asm is for sissies.
15:54	the-kenny	Emacs can save files where bits have three states: 0, 1 and something between.
15:57	cp2	hehe defn
16:00	Licenser__	has someone has made any experience with clojure and sockets?
16:01	alexyk	chouser: you da man
16:02	KirinDave_	Licenser__: Like, raw sockets or just network stuff?
16:02	alexyk	the sort-by of the pairs finished in 300 secs, while sort with comparator in 5500 secs
16:02	Licenser__	KirinDave_: 'just network stuff' so to say :P
16:02	jweiss	,(doc source)
16:02	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.repl-utils/source;[[n]]; Prints the source code for the given symbol, if it can find it. This requires that the symbol resolve to a Var defined in a namespace for which the .clj is in the classpath. Example: (source filter)"
16:02	KirinDave_	Licenser__: The Peepcode is fairly good.
16:03	alexyk	apparently sort-by calls its by only once per element, effectively performing Schwarzian transform?
16:03	KirinDave_	Licenser__: Also, I wrote an example bit of code that's smaller. Let me get the link for you.
16:03	Licenser__	KirinDave_: there is one about clojure & network?
16:03	Licenser__	All examples I found were so simple and trivialized that they were kind of useless or even wrongisch
16:03	hiredman_	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/hiredman/http_server.clj
16:03	KirinDave_	Licenser__: The peepcode stuff uses duck-streams to write a simple MUD.
16:03	hiredman_	server socket
16:04	Licenser__	hiredman_: yes it is pretty cool but the client part isn't :P
16:04	KirinDave_	Licenser__: http://kirindave.tumblr.com/post/272596413/clojure-chat-server-1
16:04	hiredman_	Licenser__: huh?
16:04	chouser	alexyk: I'm surprised it was that much faster.
16:05	Licenser__	well I find it at times very unnice to read from the socket, I've had the problem that line-seq's on a socket keep spitting out nil's and prevent the socket from closing
16:05	chouser	alexyk: sort-by could do a Schwarzian transform, but looking at it's definition I don't think it currently does.
16:05	hiredman_	Licenser__: well they would
16:06	Licenser__	yea I found that ugly .P
16:06	hiredman_	anyway, http_server has only serversocket, no client stuff
16:06	alexyk	chouser: I also used it to sort by a function of the vector, and it was still very fast, hence I thought it only computes the by once, vs sort which apparently evaluates it for every comparison. But it's all speculation.
16:06	hiredman_	which is why I said "huh?"
16:06	Licenser__	I had so much fin defining a network connection by reducing over the seq of lines it spits out - I found it beautiful but it didn't worked as I wanted .P
16:07	hiredman_	well, you are computer programmer, make it do what you want
16:07	Licenser__	hiredman_: it's my plan :P just I learned that in clojure realms there are a lot people that have more experience so I see if someone knows tons of more stuff then me - especially when it gets all javaish like sockets :P
16:08	Licenser__	it helps against triplicated code but if most peopel played with server sockets I'll just make something nice to work with the reading part ^^
16:08	alexyk	I have a general question: so far, I keep all my clojure code as repl snippets, with def vars all around, reflecting a data mining session. Now if I want to place it into a maven dir structure and e.g. compile, it tries to eval each top level thing. Which is silly. How can I refactor things to (a) still allow easy copy-paste into repl in the same way (b) keep lein compile or mvn compile's dirty little hands off my def's?
16:09	Licenser__	alexyk: create a mdef macro that does nothing when in marvin and works as def if not?
16:10	hiredman_	alexyk: that is what def is
16:10	somnium`	Licenser__: marvin?
16:10	Licenser__	I like the robot!
16:10	somnium`	:-)
16:10	hiredman_	if you want to def something, and not have the code run until you call it, that is called a "function"
16:10	hiredman_	there is a special "defn" form for that
16:11	chouser	alexyk: it's not silly, it's optimization. You're doing all your computation at compile time, saving the end-user from having to do any at all!
16:11	alexyk	ah, somnium! Q for you: I hate java.util.Date, can there be a flag in congomongo to convert all dates to joda-time upon receipt from mongo-java?
16:11	hiredman_	chouser: nah, he will do it at compile time and at runtime
16:12	somnium`	alexyk: yeah, but you have to kind of hack on the driver
16:12	chouser	hiredman_: oh. I guess you're right. :-/
16:12	alexyk	hiredman_: so if I replace a def by a defn, i.e. creating a parameterless fun, will it run as (fenvar) ?
16:12	alexyk	(funvar) I meant, kind of
16:13	hiredman_	alexyk: have you gone all this time without writing functions?
16:13	somnium`	alexyk: i.e, proxy a Transformer and fire it into bytes
16:13	alexyk	hiredman_: a few, but I rarely need them so far
16:13	hiredman_	well start writing
16:13	somnium`	alexyk: actually, could probably wrap it in a macro to make it stupid simple
16:13	alexyk	hiredman_: the question is, I have a series of interactive computations I check.
16:13	alexyk	I need to see and refer to them by names.
16:14	hiredman_	write a function to check them
16:14	alexyk	think R.
16:14	somnium`	alexyk: Ill look into it
16:14	alexyk	it's a statistics session...
16:15	alexyk	somnium`: yeah, I was so aggravated by juDate/effin' Calendar so that I'm now mapping all juDate's into joda-time DateTimes upon fetch.
16:15	alexyk	which is clearly duplication
16:15	alexyk	mongo people said they don't want any external deps, hence no joda-time, but it's "easy to serialize any type of your own"
16:15	chouser	alexyk: I suppose you could have a macro that emits a 'def' but without a body if compile-files is ture.
16:16	alexyk	chouser: interesting
16:16	alexyk	somnium`: another issue: even if you fetch :only [:x], you get :_ns and :_id, which I always dissoc around fetch.
16:17	alexyk	is there a flag to supporess :_ns and :_id?
16:17	alexyk	suppress
16:18	alexyk	KirinDave_: how do you insert gists into tumblr?
16:18	the-kenny	alexyk: There's a "embed" function on the gist site
16:18	the-kenny	You can just copy the html and insert it into the post
16:19	somnium`	alexyk: mongo always adds those keys, need them for save/update
16:19	alexyk	nice
16:19	the-kenny	alexyk: But they don't show up without javascript
16:19	somnium`	alexyk: could patch :only to take them off I suppose, but cant stop mongo from sending them
16:19	alexyk	somnium`: well I often don't plan upon returning the stuff to mongo, saving a transform as a new collection
16:20	alexyk	somnium`: erally would like a flag :really-only or something, meaning no return to mongo
16:20	alexyk	and hence no ns/id
16:20	somnium`	:really-only, I like it
16:20	alexyk	:)
16:22	alexyk	somnium`: basically it would just drop ns/id, saving a (map #dissoc (fetch :coll :only [:x]) :_ns :_id) wrapper
16:22	hiredman_	why not put the id stuff in metadata?
16:22	somnium`	hmm, maybe a :no-mongo-keys flag?
16:23	alexyk	hiredman_: interesting angle
16:23	alexyk	somnium`: sure... and also "mongo-as
16:23	alexyk	-metadata
16:23	alexyk	then :) for a choice
16:23	somnium`	hiredman_: no way to make metadata play nice with the .java driver :(
16:23	doublindirection	is there a way to specify "throws SomeException" with :gen-class :methods?
16:24	hiredman_	somnium`: but you already have a clojure layer betweeb clojure and the java right?
16:24	somnium`	Im kind of hacking on a clojure version but am handicapped by my total unfamiliarity with nio
16:25	alexyk	I can see how, if you really want to pu
16:25	alexyk
16:25	hiredman_	the clojure layer can do a transform
16:25	alexyk	update mongo, you grab metadata back
16:25	somnium`	hiredman_: yes, but for performance it tries not to do much, just expose the api sanely
16:25	somnium`	but it would be possible
16:25	somnium`	alexyk: the fork is in your hands
16:25	alexyk	somnium`: after the PhD is in my hands next year :)
16:26	alexyk	then I can even juggle with forks
16:26	alexyk	for my clojure is hard at work with what is got... :)
16:27	somnium`	oh well, mongo is still kind of alpha until it gets concurrent reads anyway :)
16:28	somnium`	alexyk: at least Ill be able to claim congo's been used by academics once you get your degree
16:29	alexyk	I thought about sharing with Haskell, which got no mongo srivers yet. But it has for couchdb and tokyo cabinet, but without JSON and shell, I can't fathom those beasts no more.
16:29	somnium`	?
16:29	Licenser__	Hmm running in open doors here, but did everyone ever think about making a good documentation system for Clojure?
16:29	somnium`	how can you do anything with couchdb but not JSON?
16:29	alexyk	somnium`: after 6 months in scala, I added clojure, we'll see how it morphs. So far. clojure is best for data mining, and mongo is my store, with 100 gb of graph transforms.
16:30	Licenser__	I mean the doc strings are nice for hints but in the long run they can't replace a real documentation
16:30	alexyk	somnium`: I mean, with a shell. I didn't look too deep into it, but I need a mongo-liek shell to inspect, not a curl client.
16:30	somnium`	ah
16:34	jweiss	can someone recommend a way to write a clojure function like (defn myoldfn [] (do (mythis) (mythat) (myother) ) and then write mynewfn so that it reads basically as "call myoldfn but instead of mythat do myanotherThing"?
16:35	jweiss	i'd like to keep the original function's steps written in order, in the fn, for readability
16:35	alexyk	somnium`: are there any shells for couchdb or tokyo cabinet comparable to mongo?
16:35	Chousuke	couldn't you parametrise myoldfn on mythat? :/
16:36	jweiss	Chousuke: yeah, but then the steps are written out of order
16:36	jweiss	i want to keep it readable
16:36	Chousuke	out of order?
16:36	Chousuke	btw, the do in your example is redundant.
16:36	jweiss	it would execute in the right order or course, but mythat would be actually defined outside the function
16:37	Chousuke	defn bodies already have an implicit do
16:37	jweiss	Chousuke: sorry was just pseudocode
16:37	Chousuke	hmm
16:37	Chousuke	well, you can use binding I suppose
16:37	jweiss	Chousuke: i can't think of a way to do that and still keep the original fn as just a straightforward list of things to do
16:38	KirinDave_	alexyk: "How do you insert gists into tumblr?"
16:38	KirinDave_	alexyk: You use the raw HTML view.
16:38	KirinDave_	It's very bad that they let you do it, tbh
16:38	KirinDave_	But you can put any script tag in.
16:38	jweiss	oh wait Chousuke i think i get it
16:38	Chousuke	jweiss: aren't you overdoing it a bit though? :/
16:38	alexyk	KirinDave_: I use markdown plugin for MarsEdit and Tumblr, usually
16:38	jweiss	(defn mynewfn (binding mythat (fn ... )))
16:38	KirinDave_	alexyk: I do not.
16:39	jweiss	Chousuke: yeah maybe
16:39	KirinDave_	alexyk: I just use the web interface (mostly the bookmarklet) for 90% of my stuff
16:39	Chousuke	jweiss: if the issue is with the order of defns, you can always declare a function first and define it later
16:40	jweiss	Chousuke: no that's not it, but in my domain i'm constantly sort of "patching" functions but i still need to keep the old ones around, and it gets totally unreadable
16:40	alexyk	somnium`: I tried googling for "couchdb shell"and only curl I see
16:40	jweiss	factoring out tiny bits into smaller fn's
16:40	alexyk	so a non-starter for me
16:40	Chousuke	jweiss: hm.
16:40	jweiss	was hoping macros or bindings could let me keep the original function looking basically the same
16:41	jweiss	without copy/pasting
16:41	KirinDave_	So, is there documentation anywhere on the cont-m monad?
16:41	KirinDave_	I really am having trouble understanding it.
16:41	KirinDave_	And the base documentation is kinda sparse
16:41	Chousuke	jweiss: so you want a template for a function and then create functions based on replacing parts of that function?
16:42	jweiss	Chousuke: yep
16:42	Chousuke	jweiss: maybe you could make a function that takes a map of functions as a parameter.
16:42	jweiss	so somehow i need to mark the forms that need replacing
16:42	dysinger	KirinDave Jim Duey has some tutorials on it.
16:42	Chousuke	jweiss: and then just pass in different function maps to it.
16:42	Chousuke	yielding new functions.
16:42	KirinDave_	dysinger: Could you point me to a link?
16:42	dysinger	http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/cont_m.html
16:43	KirinDave_	Damn
16:43	jweiss	Chousuke: but again, that still involves taking the template apart too, doesn't it?
16:43	KirinDave_	I just cannot navigate that guy's site.
16:43	KirinDave_	I keep going to it and failing to read it.
16:43	Chousuke	jweiss: well the "template" would become a function that takes the values from the map and does something with them
16:44	jweiss	Chousuke: yeah but i was hoping that my original unpatched template would remain intact. to do what you're saying, i'd have to refactor it
16:44	jweiss	and pull out all the parts that get overridden
16:45	jweiss	and put them into that map
16:45	Chousuke	yeah.
16:45	Chousuke	you can also make the "generic" parts into a macro
16:46	Chousuke	then your original function is just one expansion of that macro.
16:47	jweiss	Chousuke: hm, that might be ok, at least macroexpand should show me an easier to read fn
16:48	Chousuke	I can give only very general advice, but when writing a macro you're basically designing a new syntax for writing these functions (whatever they are)
16:48	Chousuke	so make the most out of it
16:51	somnium``	alexyk: Im not too familiar with couch, Ive only used futon
16:52	jweiss	Chousuke: seems like i need the source fn here
16:52	alexyk	somnium``: is futon as convenient as mongo client?
16:52	somnium``	alexyk: but Im sure there are people here who are quite knowledgeable
16:53	somnium``	alexyk: its a web app, not really comparable I guess
16:53	alexyk	knowledgeable people: does couchdb have a shell where you can easily inspect data?
16:53	alexyk	:)
16:55	danlarkin	Greetings clojurecrats! I'm back with another connundrum: why do these following two expressions not behave the same?
16:55	danlarkin	,(let [f #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2))] (= {{:x 1 :name "juan"} 1} (sorted-map-by f {:x 1 :name "dan"} 1)))
16:55	clojurebot	true
16:55	danlarkin	,(let [f #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2))] (= (sorted-map-by f {:x 1 :name "dan"} 1) {{:x 1 :name "juan"} 1}))
16:55	clojurebot	false
16:57	hiredman	I wonder if clojars could have an rss feed
16:58	Chousuke	danlarkin: why does the first one return true... huh. weird.
16:59	hiredman	non-semetrical equality
16:59	hiredman	it happens
16:59	danlarkin	it shouldn't! (imo)
16:59	hiredman	correct
17:01	chouser	alexyk: I just put together a down-and-dirty, mutable-array-based schwarzian transform sort, and I can't get it to beat clojure's sort-by
17:02	danlarkin	can't figure out why = isn't commutative from a quick browse of the java code
17:03	chouser	alexyk: which is interesting because the keyfn I'm testing it on is the one I gave you, where it's creating a 2-element vector for every call.
17:04	Chousuke	danlarkin: did you check both sorted-map and the persistent map?
17:04	technomancy	is there a trick to creating a clojure map from a java.util.Map?
17:04	Chousuke	technomancy: (zipmap (keys themap) (vals themap)) perhaps?
17:05	Chousuke	maybe even just (into {} themap)
17:05	technomancy	Chousuke: oh wow; into works great
17:05	technomancy	thanks
17:05	chouser	I would have that that was sufficiently expensive for the transforming sort to win
17:05	technomancy	that'll clean things up nicely
17:06	alexyk	chouser: in my case, vectors are really vectors of pairs, and I sort by e.g. sum of the second elements. E.g. [["bob [[1 1] [2 3] [3 2] [4 2]]] ["alice [[0 2][3 2][5 5]]] ...]
17:07	danlarkin	Chousuke: well PersistentTreeMap doesn't implement equiv or equals, so that'd fall back to APersistentMap
17:07	hiredman	fyi Properties implement java.util.Map
17:07	alexyk	hence sort-by, blazing fast on such 3.5 million pairs, is just: (sort-by (fn [[k v]] [(- (apply + (map second v))) k]) sper-days)
17:08	alexyk	chouser: following your trick
17:09	danlarkin	Chousuke: and clojure.core/= uses clojure.lang.Util/equiv for comparison, which uses IPersistentCollection.equiv
17:09	danlarkin	and that's where I lose it
17:09	alexyk	I was really surprised by speed, unless the map/fn is computed only once
17:11	hiredman	I think you are following the wrong direction
17:11	hiredman	I would check the equiv on sorted maps
17:12	danlarkin	but it's when the non-sorted map comes first that = is wrong
17:13	somnium``	alexyk: what is the average num of keys in the maps youre crunching?
17:13	somnium``	alexyk: the ones coming from the db I mean
17:14	hiredman	danlarkin: but sorted-map was added later so it's equivilance semantics are more likely to need some adjusting
17:14	alexyk	somnium``: from 1 to 30,000 currently
17:14	alexyk	each element, 3-10 million elements per coll
17:14	alexyk	brb
17:15	hiredman	huh
17:15	hiredman	~def sorted-map
17:16	somnium``	alexyk: egads, youre storing objects with 30,000 keys?
17:16	hiredman	hmmm
17:18	danlarkin	the counts don't even have to be the same:
17:18	danlarkin	,(let [f #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2))] (= {{:x 1 :name "juan"} 1} (sorted-map-by f {:x 1} 1)))
17:18	clojurebot	true
17:19	chouser	,(map first (sorted-map-by #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2)) {:x 1 :name "dan"} 1))
17:19	clojurebot	({:x 1, :name "dan"})
17:19	chouser	,(map first (sorted-map-by #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2)) {:x 1 :name "dan"} 1 2 3 4 5))
17:19	clojurebot	(2 {:x 1, :name "dan"})
17:19	chouser	oh, wait.
17:19	somnium``	is there a summary of performance characteristics for ArrayMap vs. StructMap vs. HashMap vs. DynamicType anywhere+ (creation, look-up, etc.) ?
17:19	chouser	sorry, I was off the tracks there.
17:21	chouser	ah, there it is.
17:21	danlarkin	right, so I think the problem must live in APersistentMap:
17:21	danlarkin	,(let [f #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2))] (.equiv {{:x 1 :name "juan"} 1} (sorted-map-by f {:x 1} 1)))
17:21	clojurebot	true
17:21	chouser	,(get (sorted-map-by #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2)) {:x 1 :name "dan"}) {:x 1 :name "anything at all"})
17:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {:x 1, :name "dan"}
17:22	chouser	,(get (sorted-map-by #(compare (:x %1) (:x %2)) {:x 1 :name "dan"} 1) {:x 1 :name "anything at all"})
17:22	clojurebot	1
17:22	danlarkin	ah ha
17:22	chouser	sorted maps use the comparator to find the value
17:23	chouser	perhaps they should do a final equality check of the key before succeeding?
17:23	chouser	or perhaps not. I dunno.
17:23	danlarkin	well it seems like they ought to
17:24	danlarkin	at least it seems tome that the current behavior is wrong
17:24	chouser	well, this seems wrong too but has been ruled Not A Bug:
17:24	chouser	,{:a 1 :a 2 :a 3}
17:24	clojurebot	{:a 1, :a 2, :a 3}
17:25	danlarkin	yeah but that's in such a corner case
17:25	chouser	using a comparator for sorted-map-by that claims two values are equal when they are not seems like a corner case too, doesn't it?
17:26	danlarkin	I don't want the comparator to be used for equality, just sorting :)
17:26	Chousuke	isn't the sorting ... right.
17:26	reify	what clojure-contrib branch is recommended for clojure 1.x ?
17:27	chouser	reify: master, I think. for now. :-)
17:27	reify	i get these errors when compiling clojure-contrib with a clojure-1.1.jar: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RestFn: method <init>()V not found (PrettyWriter.clj:17)
17:28	chouser	reify: "ant clean" first
17:29	reify	i swore I did that, thanks, that worked
17:30	chouser	reify: that's my job: telling you what you already know.
17:30	chouser	:-)
17:31	danlarkin	so my workaround right now is to make sure the order to clojure.core/= always puts the sorted-map first... do you think this is worthy of escalating? (I do)
17:32	chouser	sure. I just wouldn't be shocked if the answer is "well, don't do that"
17:32	danlarkin	I hate those answers :(
17:33	alexyk	somnium``: sorry, each object has usually one key. The value may be a longish vector or submap, tho.
17:34	hiredman	~RestFn
17:34	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:34	hiredman	~clojure.lang.RestFn
17:34	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
17:35	somnium``	alexyk: congo creates hash-maps by default, but would be pretty easy to add an array-map flag for smallish maps.
17:37	chouser	technomancy: is it too hard to make your comparator only return 0 when keys are equal?
17:38	chouser	except I've gotta run, so we can pretend that was rhetorical. :-)
17:38	danlarkin	chouser: I assume you meant me :)
17:38	somnium``	does the reader decide between array-map/hash-map by just counting key-value pairs?
17:38	chouser	danlarkin: right! sorry!
17:38	chouser	technomancy: sorry!
17:39	chouser	somnium``: reader always uses array-map, I believe. assoc/dissoc count keys and switch formats appropriately.
17:39	chouser	uh. except I'm wrong.
17:39	somnium``	hmm
17:40	somnium``	? :)
17:41	chouser	well, I do have to go. Ignore what I said. :-P
17:48	mabes	is there a way to require/use all of clojure/contrib? I would like to use (find-doc) on all of it...
18:28	joshua-choi	Hey, is there a better way to add an object x to the beginning of a vector v than (vec (cons v x))?
18:29	hiredman	I don't imagine so
18:30	hiredman	you could implement your own type of vector that allowed adding to the front some how
18:31	hiredman	for key 0 return x else return element key - 1 from vector v
18:32	joshua-choi	Well, I'm not sure I want to go that far
18:32	joshua-choi	I'm worried that with vec and cons, though, creating a sequence from a vector, and then a new vector from the sequence would be more inefficient than may be necessary
18:32	Chousuke	you could pester chouser to finish the finger tree implementation and make a deque :P
18:32	hiredman	vectors were not designed with effecient adding tothe front in mind
18:33	joshua-choi	Yeah...maybe I should try to change my logic so I don't have to add to a vector's beginning, ugh
18:34	chouser	there's a PersistentQueue if you just want to always add to the right and take from the left.
18:34	joshua-choi	In clojure.core?
18:34	hiredman	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1)
18:34	clojurebot	(1)
18:34	hiredman	,(conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2)
18:34	clojurebot	(1 2)
18:35	hiredman	,(peak (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2))
18:35	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: peak in this context
18:35	hiredman	,(peek (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2))
18:35	clojurebot	1
18:35	joshua-choi	I had no idea that this data structure existed
18:35	Chousuke	it's not very well documented :/
18:36	hiredman	I think rhickey has some (evil?) mastermind plans for queues
18:39	joshua-choi	Ah, I just came up with a way to avoid adding to a vector's beginning; I guess that's best
18:39	joshua-choi	I've got another question though
18:39	joshua-choi	According to http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/clojure-performance-tips, using destructuring in let (and so, probably fn too) is pretty slow
18:39	joshua-choi	That post was from earlier this year; is it still the case?
18:40	joshua-choi	Should I avoid destructuring lets in loops, etc?
18:42	the-kenny	joshua-choi: Only if you have a real bottleneck at this point in your code
18:42	danlarkin	joshua-choi: measure and THEN optimize :)
18:42	the-kenny	first: write it beautiful, if it's to slow, write it faster
18:42	the-kenny	s/to/too/
18:44	joshua-choi	Yeah, that makes sense
18:44	joshua-choi	I have no idea have to measure though
18:44	joshua-choi	I'm not experienced with profiling Clojure, or anything for that matter
18:45	hiredman	it's a complex macro
18:45	the-kenny	joshua-choi: Just write your code.. if you don't notice that the code is too slow, there's no need to change the code for more speed
18:49	ubii	anyone using clojure for web development?
18:50	the-kenny	ubii: Yeah, some people here. Just ask your question :)
18:51	ubii	what framework(s) are most folks using and how production ready are they?
18:51	the-kenny	ubii: I think compojure is the most prominent framework here. http://clojars.org is running on it
18:53	mtm	chouser: you're to the point of picking a title and cover for the book? Sounds like you're almost done... (rubs hands gleefully in anticipation)
18:54	ubii	out of the frameworks that I look at so far, compojure looks the most interesting
18:55	tomoj	compojure is changing currently I think?
18:55	ubii	in what way?
18:56	tomoj	being refactored I think
18:56	ubii	ah
18:56	tomoj	dunno how far away that stuff is from master
18:57	ubii	one thing that I am trying to get a better grasp on is the server side of things, such as how to best deploy multiple sites on a single server
18:59	tomoj	I guess that kind of thing is java's problem
18:59	ubii	as well, as which web/app server(s) to, in order to maximize scalability
18:59	ubii	understood
18:59	tomoj	I don't know much about that yet either
18:59	hiredman	you can always proxy requests via apache
19:00	tomoj	I asked before whether there is a need to run multiple instances of the application on a single server (like we have in ruby), and the answer was 'no'
19:01	tomoj	I guess because java can actually do threading
19:01	hiredman	yeah, there isn't, but it makes it easier
19:01	hiredman	makes it
19:01	tomoj	wait, what?
19:01	tomoj	that only sounds harder to me
19:01	hiredman	compojure has the run script right? for developement that launches with jetty?
19:02	hiredman	(it's been a while)
19:02	hiredman	so you do that once per site, each site gets a port, set up the forwarding in an apache config
19:02	ubii	if for example, say I have different sites, running on the same server, do each of them run under their own JVM?
19:02	hiredman	it's not perfect by along shot, but it is dead simple
19:03	tomoj	right, that sounds easy
19:03	tomoj	I meant how like with ruby we might proxy apache/nginx to multiple running copies of the application even on the same server
19:03	tomoj	only have to do one here, I think
19:09	ubii	just trying to get some idea of what type of memory resources each site might require, using something like compojure
19:09	hiredman	compojure has a google group
19:12	ubii	np, I can pop on #compojure and ask
19:14	ubii	was just trying to get a feel for what most folks were using and how to best setup multiple sites up on a single server
19:14	ubii	thx
19:55	defn	how do you get a coll you turned into a transient back?
19:55	hiredman	(doc persistent!)
19:55	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a new, persistent version of the transient collection, in constant time. The transient collection cannot be used after this call, any such use will throw an exception."
19:56	defn	awesome thanks
19:58	defn	what is [b] in clojure?
19:58	Chousuke	a vector of one element?
19:58	defn	,(doc chunk)
19:58	clojurebot	"([b]); "
19:58	Chousuke	aha. :D
19:58	hiredman	yep
19:58	Chousuke	good documentation. don't ask me.
19:59	Chousuke	it means the function takes one argument, named b :P
19:59	Chousuke	whatever that is.
19:59	defn	bahaha
19:59	defn	goddamnit
19:59	hiredman	,(alter-meta! #'chunk assoc :arglists _
19:59	clojurebot	EOF while reading
19:59	hiredman	,(alter-meta! #'chunk assoc :arglists _)
19:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: _ in this context
19:59	hiredman	,(alter-meta! #'chunk assoc :arglists '_)
19:59	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name chunk, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 446, :arglists _}
19:59	hiredman	(doc chunk)
19:59	clojurebot	"_; "
19:59	defn	ah i see
20:02	defn	map and filter use the chunk stuff
20:02	defn	cool
20:04	ericlavigne	Just installed NetBeans+Enclojure but Clojure isn't one of the options for new project types. Have I configured wrong, or should I be creating a Java project and putting Clojure source in it?
20:54	devlinsf	Is is possible to get bug fixes in for 1.1?
20:55	hiredman	I would imagine so
20:55	devlinsf	I have a fix for 128
20:55	devlinsf	just posted
20:56	devlinsf	Can someone review?
21:18	hiredman	// int WIDE = 196; // NOT VISITED
21:18	hiredman	:(
21:21	devlinsf	???
21:22	hiredman	WIDE is the bytecode the experimental jvm uses to annotate tail calls
21:23	hiredman	and WIDE is commented out in the source of Opcodes.java in the asm library
21:27	devlinsf	Oh
21:28	devlinsf	So no TCO?
21:29	hiredman	I don't know the asm lib too well
21:32	hiredman	uncommenting it and trying to use wide just gives me a NPE
21:32	devlinsf	Hmmm
21:34	alexyk	how do I take last N elements of a collection?
21:35	devlinsf	currently not supported
21:35	alexyk	grrr
21:35	devlinsf	I'd do this
21:36	devlinsf	(defn take-last [n coll] (drop (- (count coll) n) coll))
21:36	devlinsf	Gonna talk about that fn for 1.2
21:36	alexyk	nice
21:36	devlinsf	We'll see where it goes
21:36	hiredman	,((comp first drop-while) (comp (parial = 6) count) (iterate rest (range 10)))
21:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: parial in this context
21:36	hiredman	,((comp first drop-while) (comp (partial = 6) count) (iterate rest (range 10)))
21:36	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
21:37	hiredman	bleh
21:37	alexyk	may call it tail as well
21:37	hiredman	,((comp first drop-while) (comp (partial not= 6) count) (iterate rest (range 10)))
21:37	clojurebot	(4 5 6 7 8 9)
21:37	devlinsf	Yeah, expect there already is drop-last
21:37	hiredman	,((comp first drop-while) (comp (partial not= 6) count) (iterate rest (range 1000)))
21:37	clojurebot	(994 995 996 997 998 999)
21:37	devlinsf	maybe alias it as tail?
21:37	alexyk	and alias take as head
21:38	alexyk	unless it's taken
21:38	devlinsf	~head
21:38	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:38	devlinsf	NOpe
21:42	defn	alexyk: you coulkd just reverse it
21:42	defn	could just*
21:43	alexyk	true too
21:43	defn	,(take 10 (reverse (range 0 21)))
21:43	clojurebot	(20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11)
21:43	defn	i like reverse the most -- seems easiest to understand
21:43	defn	im not sure about its effect on performance, though
21:43	alexyk	defn: then reverse again
21:44	hiredman	also the worst O
21:44	devlinsf	hiredman: true
21:44	hiredman	clojurebot: the most horrible thing?
21:44	clojurebot	most horrible thing is http://tinyurl.com/b65o8e
21:44	alexyk	hiredman: yours is Greek to me :)
21:45	alexyk	what's comp first drop-while do?
21:45	devlinsf	(first (drop-while ...
21:47	alexyk	right, still it's puzzling.
21:48	defn	the loop seems ugly
21:48	defn	err, look ugly in my opinion
21:48	alexyk	how do you limit the size of output by clojure repl?
21:48	defn	looks*
21:48	defn	alexyk: good question, id be interested to know that
21:48	alexyk	trying to depuzzle hiredman's stuff from the tail produced a sea of numbers
21:49	jasapp	alexyk: do you mean print-length?
21:49	alexyk	ah
21:49	jasapp	(set! print-length 10)
21:49	hiredman	(iterate rest (range 3)) => ((0 1 2 ) (1 2) (2) () ...)
21:49	devlinsf	\me wants to slap the "lisp w/o parens" crowd
21:50	devlinsf	There
21:50	jasapp	I've always wondered how to do that
21:50	devlinsf	/me
21:50	jasapp	sweet
21:51	jasapp	heh
21:51	defn	jasapp: nice
21:51	defn	thanks
21:51	alexyk	hiredman: what's ...? I'm afraid for my repl
21:52	jasapp	it just prints ...'s
21:52	hiredman	it goes on forever
21:52	hiredman	hmmm
21:52	hiredman	actually
21:52	defn	clojurebot: sotto voce is <reply>shhhh!
21:52	clojurebot	Alles klar
21:52	hiredman	nuts, mine depends on count
21:53	hiredman	so mine is n*n'ish
21:53	alexyk	yeah, it's darn many numbers it generates
21:53	jasapp	I thought most structures held their count somewhere
21:53	hiredman	not seqs
21:54	defn	,(doc ref-max-history)
21:54	clojurebot	"([ref] [ref n]); Gets the max-history of a ref, or sets it and returns the ref"
21:59	alexyk	hmm:
21:59	alexyk	.(doc take-last)
21:59	alexyk	,(doc take-last)
21:59	clojurebot	"([n coll]); Returns a seq of the last n items in coll. Depending on the type of coll may be no better than linear time. For vectors, see also subvec."
22:00	devlinsf	Hmmm?
22:00	alexyk	rhickey beamed it from the future
22:00	alexyk	hot-loaded erlang-style into clojurebot by the firedman of 2012 :)
22:01	devlinsf	Still confused
22:01	alexyk	me too
22:01	jasapp	that makes three of us, at least
22:02	alexyk	I found it by trying to load devlinsf's take-last into the current ns, got confict with clojure.core/that
22:02	devlinsf	I could swear this wasn't there yesterday....
22:02	devlinsf	Oh well
22:02	devlinsf	Musta made a mistake
22:41	joshua-choi	,(syntax-quote conj)
22:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: syntax-quote in this context
22:42	joshua-choi	Is there a form for syntax quoting, like (quote x)?
22:44	hiredman	there maybe a dummy stubbed out in core, but syntax quote is currently a reader macro, so having it won't work like that
22:45	joshua-choi	I see
22:46	joshua-choi	But, I could do
22:46	joshua-choi	,(first `(conj))
22:46	clojurebot	clojure.core/conj
22:46	joshua-choi	but it looks messy
22:47	joshua-choi	Is there a better way?
22:47	hiredman	,(resolve 'conj)
22:47	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/conj
22:47	joshua-choi	Excellent; would that work in macros?
22:47	hiredman	you could also just
22:48	hiredman	,`conj
22:48	clojurebot	clojure.core/conj
22:49	joshua-choi	Well, it's in a function: it's an argument whose value (a symbol) needs to be resolved
22:49	hiredman	…
22:49	hiredman	actually resolve resolves to the var
22:50	hiredman	resolved or namespace qualified?
22:50	hiredman	resolve resolves, and ` namespace qualifies, not resolves
22:50	joshua-choi	Well, namespace qualified, but like syntax quoting—which implies sort of resolving, right?
22:51	hiredman	maybe "quasi-resolving"
22:52	joshua-choi	I need it in a function that looks like this: (f [name] [(keyword name) (something name)]) so that (f 'conj) -> [:conj 'clojure.core/conj]
22:54	hiredman	,(ns-map ns)
22:54	clojurebot	{sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, val #'clojure.core/val, ProcessBuilder java.lang.ProcessBuilder, chunked-seq? #'clojure.core/chunked-seq?, Enum java.lang.Enum, find-protocol-impl #'clojure.core/find-protocol-impl, SuppressWarnings java.lang.SuppressWarnings, compile-path #'clojure.core/compile-path, max-k
22:54	hiredman	hmmm
22:55	hiredman	are you sure you want the namespace qualified symbol and not the var?
22:55	joshua-choi	Well, the var would work too, come to think of it
22:56	joshua-choi	Yes, using var works! Excellent, thanks for the help
22:56	hiredman	,(reduce #(conj %1 (keyword (name (key %2))) (val %2)) {} (ns-map ns))
22:56	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
22:57	hiredman	,(reduce #(conj %1 [(keyword (name (key %2))) (val %2)]) {} (ns-map ns))
22:57	clojurebot	{:StackTraceElement java.lang.StackTraceElement, :unchecked-inc #'clojure.core/unchecked-inc, :ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException, :import #'clojure.core/import, :deliver #'clojure.core/deliver, :symbol #'clojure.core/symbol, :vals #'clojure.core/vals, :print-doc #'clojure.core/print-doc, :select-keys #'clojure.core/select-keys, :re-matcher #'clojure.core/re-matcher, :rand #'clojure.core/rand, :deref #'cloj
22:57	hiredman	anyway, resolve will get you the var