#clojure – 2009-12-17

2009-12-17

00:02	alexyk	how do you unset a def'd thing?
00:04	hiredman	you don't, ever!
00:04	rads	what's the best way to write a simple IRC bot in clojure? start from scratch, or is there a good IRC library available?
00:04	hiredman	pircbot is pretty simple and easy to use
00:04	JonSmith	is probably a java one
00:04	alexyk	hiredman: it eats my RAM!
00:04	hiredman	alexyk: then don't def it
00:04	alexyk	can I def it to nil?
00:04	hugod	alexyk; so pmap will start processing 10 threads at a time if I understand it correctly
00:05	alexyk	hiredman: it's in repl
00:05	hiredman	alexyk: :(
00:05	JonSmith	hugod: pmap should do however many processors you have
00:05	hiredman	rads: I've hard good things about something called, maybe, "jerklib"
00:06	hiredman	clojurebot uses pircbot
00:07	alexyk	hiredman: I don't see why if I (def existing-ram-sucking-bastard-thing nil) it won't be GC'd?
00:08	alexyk	on top level at repl
00:08	hiredman	did I say it wouldn't?
00:09	alexyk	hiredman: you said don't def it :)
00:09	hiredman	to start with
00:09	hugod	JonSmith: pmap deref's availableProcessors plus 2 at a time
00:09	alexyk	hiredman: mistakes were made
00:09	alexyk	or, rather, I def everything of interest in repl, what other way to reuse it?
00:10	JonSmith	that's interesting
00:10	hiredman	alexyk: *1
00:11	alexyk	hiredman: ?
00:11	hiredman	,(doc *1)
00:11	clojurebot	"; bound in a repl thread to the most recent value printed"
00:11	alexyk	I need names
00:11	hiredman	,(doc *2)
00:11	clojurebot	"; bound in a repl thread to the second most recent value printed"
00:11	alexyk	e.g. I define a map and then hack at it for days
00:12	alexyk	I never run a clojure script for results yet, it's all repl!
00:12	alexyk	output goes into mongo, amazing
00:12	hugod	alexyk: you could also try forcing things - (System/runFinalization) (System/gc) a few times
00:12	alexyk	hugod: useful
00:12	hiredman	hugod: pfft
00:13	hiredman	not really
00:13	hugod	pfft?
00:13	alexyk	parallel FFT
00:13	hiredman	if it needs to be gc'ed it will be
00:14	alexyk	hiredman: that's zen
00:15	hugod	presumably, though I thought that depends on how things grow and what limits are set
00:15	alexyk	IDEA has a nice button you can click and feel accomplished at GC'ing
00:16	alexyk	it's like that curvy gear-shift stick path, to let you in touch with the machine
00:16	hiredman	hugod: that is part of the definition of "needs to be"
00:16	alexyk	there was some function to destroy vars, iirc
00:17	alexyk	(whack...) or destroy or clear or something
00:17	hiredman	nope
00:17	hiredman	don't destroy vars
00:17	hiredman	they are not for destroying
00:17	alexyk	hiredman: I've asked it at least once before! :) and somebody suggested something
00:17	alexyk	I vividly remember a dash in its name
00:17	hugod	hiredman, so if you have a large max, and small initial, then forcing gc might reduce total memory usage?
00:18	hiredman	hugod: nope
00:18	hiredman	jvm never frees memory
00:19	hugod	ah, ok
00:21	hugod	then the most forcing gc can do is possibly give you headroom until you reach your previous memory usage?
00:22	alexyk	So what's with Lisp's globals called foo and Clojure's +bar+ ?
00:22	alexyk	(conventions I see in code)
00:22	hiredman	hugod: well, really it would do nothing, because the gc will run when the jvm is looking for free memory
00:23	hiredman	so never do manual gc runs
00:23	hiredman	alexyk: clojure doesn't have a convetion using +foo+
00:23	alexyk	hiredman: I saw folks using +foos+
00:24	hiredman	I doubt it
00:24	alexyk	hiredman: I swear! :)
00:24	hiredman	I don't believe you
00:26	hugod	CL uses +foos+ for constants
00:26	hiredman	clojure uses foo to indicate vars to are for rebinding
00:27	alexyk	mmcgrana does it in clj-garden 23 times, e.g. ./clj-garden/stash/test/stash/core_test_helper.clj:(def +data-source+
00:27	hugod	hiredman: will gc run before the jvm expands its current allocation?
00:28	alexyk	so that's where I saw it
00:28	defn	what is the policy on reusing someone's code vs forking -- which is best?
00:28	hiredman	hugod: I'd check the docs if you want to know exactly when and where the gc will run
00:29	hiredman	alexyk: one place does not a convention make
00:29	alexyk	indeed
00:30	hugod	hiredman: :-) will do
00:35	alexyk	defn: on github, if you want to patch and contribute, forking is preferred; I fork gists just to bookmark them, too.
00:35	alexyk	forking is the new reusing
00:35	defn	what if you're sort of taking it in a new direction?
00:35	alexyk	defn: then definitely fork on a branch, possibly
00:35	defn	like, i dont want someone to feel obligated to take my code
00:35	alexyk	then they won't :)
00:36	defn	touche'
00:36	alexyk	forking is good for everybody if you're using git, hg, or darcs
00:36	defn	k -- i just found a project that pretty much does everything i want to do minus a few details, and it was around a year ago
00:37	defn	fork it is
01:00	JonSmith	so...
01:17	defn	so...
01:17	defn	skynet
01:17	defn	clojurebot: skynet
01:17	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
01:23	defn	clojurebot: do you like skynet?
01:23	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
01:24	defn	clojurebot: do you like skynet or not?
01:24	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
01:24	defn	clojurebot: do you like skynet and rhickey?
01:24	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
01:24	defn	clojurebot: do you like rhickey?
01:24	clojurebot	excusez-moi
01:29	defn	hiredman: any markov planned?
01:29	hiredman	nope
01:29	hiredman	I do have a nice log of #clojure in case it happens
01:30	defn	i wish n01se.net had a plaintxt
01:35	defn	it's pretty interesting to look at the log sizes over time
01:35	defn	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/
02:43	headius	you ruby-using clojurists might get a kick out of this: http://gist.github.com/258565
02:43	headius	nite
02:51	LauJensen	Morning gents - Blizzard in the DK this fine morning :) (danish variant, not the American)
03:01	piccolino	What's a Danish blizzard?
03:12	LauJensen	Its about 12 cm of snow :)
03:13	polypus	det er, når det regner katte og hunde
03:13	karmazilla	what's an American blizzard?
03:14	polypus	nity nite
03:14	LauJensen	karmazilla: thats about 65 cm of snow?
04:15	esj	good morning all
05:23	octe	can anyone explain how defmulti's syntax has changed?
05:23	octe	i'm trying to make a library work with clojure > 1.0.0
07:54	octe	anyone know how to make start-repl in swank-clojure start again after a connection has been closed?
08:17	triyo	Any clojurians here familier with compojure?
08:17	triyo	I'm getting a really weird concurrency issue as far as I can tell
08:18	triyo	everyone is asleep I guess :)
08:20	briansheehan_	Hello, can someone tell me if I can drop a .clj file somewhere in the classpath and subsequently load it in the repl?
08:22	triyo	briansheehan_: AFAIK, yes
08:22	briansheehan_	I've been having a bit of trouble doing do
08:22	briansheehan_	I have a namespace called ie.vdm.clojure-web
08:23	triyo	briansheehan_: I use leiningen and it copies my .clj files to my jar...and when I put that jar on classpath, i can access the .clj
08:23	karmazilla	briansheehan_: try removing the dash from the namespace and make sure it lines up with the directory/package structure. Otherwise I dunno.
08:23	triyo	ok, so you have ie.vdm.clojure-web whats your clj file name?
08:24	ker2x	friendly greetings :)
08:24	briansheehan_	clojure_web.clj
08:24	briansheehan_	directory structure is ie/vdm/clojure_web/clojure_web.clj in classpath
08:26	rhickey	briansheehan_: that's one clojure_web too many
08:26	briansheehan_	okay thanks rich!
08:28	briansheehan_	I think this bit it (doc require) put me wrong:
08:28	briansheehan_	For example, the lib 'x.y.z has root directory <classpath>/x/y/z; root resource <classpath>/x/y/z/z.clj.
08:28	ker2x	i'm reading documentation about ref, atom, etc ... and concurenccy... but i can't find a documentation about threads
08:28	Chousuke	which version of clojure are you running? I thought that was fixed :/
08:30	briansheehan_	1.0.0, could be behind the times
08:30	Chousuke	nah. that's the latest stable release. :P
08:31	ker2x	there is nothing like erlang or scala "!" in clojure ? to pass message between threads ?
08:34	karmazilla	ker2x: maybe you're looking for things like 'agent and 'send ?
08:35	ker2x	agent create a new thread ?
08:36	ker2x	mmm, that wasn't very explicit in the documentation ...
08:36	rhickey	ker2x: no, agents are not actors
08:36	rhickey	in an actor model (erlang scala) you write loops that wait for messages
08:36	ker2x	indeed
08:36	rhickey	you don't do that in Clojure
08:37	rhickey	instead you can have an agent, that represents some state, and send it actions that manipulate that state. Those actions will run on threads from a thread pool, but there isn't a 1:1 relationship between agent/thread
08:38	rhickey	when there are no actions for an agent, it isn't busy waiting, it's not doing anything
08:38	rhickey	when there are many actions for an agent they get queued up
08:38	rhickey	an agent is only doing one action at a time
08:39	rhickey	alternatively, you can use future to spawn threads, and use STM refs for shared state, or promise/deliver
08:39	ker2x	Mmmmm
08:40	triyo	in clojure how do I insure that only single thread at the time will create a new instance of my JavaBean? I am running a hybrid clojure code / java code system and need my clojure code to create a new instance of my JavaBean class, set some properties on it, and then pass it on to the Java persistence system (hibernate, existing java code)
08:40	ker2x	i'm confused, i'll need a lot of test and fail :)
08:40	rhickey	ker2x: the key is not to presume that the erlang/scala way is the only way
08:41	ker2x	yup. of course, but erlang/Scala is the only way i know for multithread in a Functional langage :)
08:41	rhickey	ker2x: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Value-Identity-State-Rich-Hickey
08:42	ker2x	i bought "programming clojure" a few days ago
08:43	ker2x	thx for the url, i'll read that from home (i don't have flash on my desktop at work)
08:45	triyo	http://gist.github.com/258737 every now and then I get a org.hibernate.NonUniqueObjectException: a different object with the same identifier value was already associated with the session: [com.billdozr.core.model.Label#12039]
08:47	triyo	test-create-label is called from my compojure routing function.
08:48	triyo	any input would be very much appreciated.
08:57	triyo	I'll try asking differently all together. If I want to interop with Java code that uses, hibernate (java persistence framework) whats the best approach to do this, if any?
09:07	LauJensen	triyo: si si senior
09:08	triyo	LauJensen: I dont follow?
09:08	LauJensen	You asked if any Clojurians had experience with Compojure - I do
09:11	triyo	LauJensen: thx, I have the following code: http://gist.github.com/258737 ...as a small test... it runs fine on small load.
09:12	triyo	LauJensen: however, if I test 2000 requests with 20 concurrent, I get an indication that about 200 fail with 500 errors.
09:13	bOR_	echo'ing from #leiningen:
09:13	triyo	reason is "NonUniqueObjectException: a different object with the same identifier value was already associated with the session" which is on line 16
09:13	bOR_	does anyone know if the pom / clojure-1.1.0-alpha / clojure-1.1.0-master thing is still a problem?
09:13	bOR_	trying to distinguish between my proxy acting up and leiningen failing because of that
09:13	bOR_	and the alpha / master / pom build thing.
09:30	LauJensen	triyo: I've had similar experience, but didn't resolve. I recommend you post it on Compojures Google Group, as James gives exceptionel answer very quickly
09:30	triyo	LauJensen: thx I'll try that
09:31	LauJensen	np
10:22	shoover	triyo: where did your gist go?!
10:28	triyo	shoover: http://gist.github.com/258810, sorry added a new gist
10:28	triyo	shoover: also, I just posted the problem I have on compojure group: http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/browse_thread/thread/872330e0b94f555b
10:31	triyo	shoover`: not to sure if you got my last message
10:32	triyo	shoover``: http://gist.github.com/258810, sorry added a new gist and here is the actual new post at http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/browse_thread/thread/872330e0b94f555b
10:33	shoover``	triyo: ok, thanks (I don't know what's going on with my internet connection)
10:34	triyo	shoover``: I noticed, your ` keeps multiplying :)
10:49	octe	can i create a symbol from a string?
10:50	chouser	,(symbol "foo")
10:50	clojurebot	foo
10:50	dnolen	,(str 'foo)
10:50	clojurebot	"foo"
10:51	ker2x	can i easily do openCL and/or gpgpu in clojure ?
10:51	dnolen	just for good measure
10:51	dnolen	ker2x: yes checkout Penumbra by ztellman
10:51	dnolen	http://github.com/ztellman/penumbra
10:52	ker2x	thank you !
10:52	octe	where is defn defined?
10:53	ker2x	concurrency and gpgpu computing is my #1 feature to choose a langage :)
10:53	ker2x	mmm, penumbra is openGL stuff
10:54	octe	nevermind, found it..
10:55	ker2x	ha ok... openCL and GPGPU is in early dev stage. k k
10:55	ker2x	thx
10:57	rys	I'm potentially going to be working on OpenCL bindings for my new employer in the new year, if nobody else has
10:58	doublindirection	is it ok to assume that (keys map) and (vals map) are always going to have the same ordering?
10:59	doublindirection	i remember reading something about this but I cannot find it anymore
11:00	chouser	doublindirection: yes, and both have the same ordering as (seq map)
11:00	doublindirection	thanks chouser
11:01	chouser	for the very same map of course. as soon as you insert or remove anything, all bets are off.
11:02	doublindirection	right
11:08	dnolen	ker2x: oh yeah this as well, http://www.jcuda.de/.
11:11	triyo	I need to perform some form of locking on this pieces of code as I am dealing with Java code that needs coordination. I am struggling with this part. Can someone refer me to some good example as to how to perform explicit locking?
11:12	triyo	Here is my code snippet that needs lock based coordincation
11:12	triyo	prob. with use of atoms too.. http://gist.github.com/258837
11:14	shoover``	triyo: does getWebApplicationContext always return the same java object within the same JVM, or does it make a new object?
11:15	triyo	shoover``: always returns the same context
11:15	shoover``	then you could try locking on spring-ctx
11:16	shoover``	(locking spring-ctx (do stuff with labels))
11:17	shoover``	Your benchmark won't be fast, but at least it should get rid of the exceptions
11:19	triyo	shoover``: thx, that worked... 1600 request with 10 concurent... result Requests per second: 514.93 [#/sec] (mean)
11:20	triyo	shoover``: it wasnt meant to be some real benchmark, rather just to sniff out the suspected concurrency issues at java level.
11:21	triyo	shoover``: from your experience, is there a better way to handle locking at lower-level java calls? I saw in the "Programming Clojure" book an example with locking combined with use of atoms
11:22	shoover``	I've never locked anything in Clojure :)
11:23	triyo	shoover``: why not? its so much fun when you have to run a hybrid java solution that really needs locking ;)
11:25	shoover``	triyo: ah, the book is using an atom to store the context, essentially, but you already have a context object in spring
11:26	triyo	shoover``: true, I see now why they use the atom in that place.
11:30	shoover``	Now, I don't know how much of that function you need to wrap in the lock. Is it the .getBean call, or .create, or?
11:30	shoover``	Probably .create and .read?
11:32	shoover``	... since that sounds like a race condition
11:33	Chousuke	Clojure has teh locking macro, but I don't think I've ever seen it anywhere :P
11:38	triyo	shoover``: yup .create .read need to be locked... I used locking macro and it worked... yuk :)
11:41	triyo	shoover``: basically any calls on the sprint context.. guess I'll write a macro to wrap the crappy calls to spring context to encapsulate that pattern
11:41	triyo	*spring
11:43	arohner	,(every? identity [nil])
11:43	clojurebot	false
11:43	arohner	,(every? identity nil)
11:43	clojurebot	true
11:44	arohner	that's very weird IMO
11:44	rhickey	anyone using add-watcher?
11:44	stuartsierra	Weird but mathematically correct.
11:44	stuartsierra	,(every? identity [])
11:44	clojurebot	true
11:45	stuartsierra	rhickey: not at present
11:45	stuartsierra	I used it in the past
11:45	_clojure_	rhickey: not recently
11:46	arohner	rhickey: any chance of getting a watcher for a transaction? One function that gets called with every ref that was modified in a single transaction? I would use that
11:46	stuartsierra	arohner: How would that work? Would the same function get called on every transaction?
11:47	arohner	(dosync (watch-transaction foo) (alter ...) (commute...))
11:47	rhickey	stuartsierra: would need to be passed to sync
11:47	arohner	watch-transaction gets called once, when the transaction completes
11:47	arohner	for only that transaction
11:47	rhickey	arohner: not that way
11:48	rhickey	(sync {:on-commit foo :other flags} ...)
11:48	arohner	sure. that works for me
11:48	stuartsierra	How would that be different from (dosync ... ) (when-done-do ...)
11:49	rhickey	sync has a spot for transaction flags, like timeouts etc, but there are none yet
11:49	slashus2	Or you could have a `when-commit` macro that calls its body in an agent.
11:49	arohner	stuartsierra: because then as a library writer, I don't need to know what the body of the sync contains
11:50	stuartsierra	ah, ok
11:50	rhickey	neither of those could pass the affected refs
11:51	arohner	because it's not possible, or not a good idea for concurrency or something else?
11:52	arohner	I'm trying to write an ORM that doesn't suck, and I'm struggling with integrating DB transactions with dosync
11:52	rhickey	stuartsierra's was after the dosync
11:52	replaca	rhickey: I use add-watch, but not yet add-watcher
11:52	rhickey	arohner: oh, for that you will need more than a hook, if you truly want to be transactional
11:53	rhickey	replaca: good - add-watcher is older, non-primitive (can be built on add-watch) so I'm looking to remove it
11:53	stuartsierra	fine by me
11:53	rhickey	arohner: you need a transaction coordinator
11:54	stuartsierra	rhickey: think we can get 1.1 out before Christmas?
11:54	rhickey	arohner: one of the reasons there aren't global transaction hooks is that I am afraid of home-made attempts at ORM that tie into the STM - it's not trivial
11:54	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes
11:55	stuartsierra	rhickey: Yay! Anything else I can do to help?
11:55	arohner	rhickey: you're afraid of exactly what I'm trying to do :-)
11:55	rhickey	arohner: right
11:55	arohner	yes, I see the non-trivalness of it
11:55	rhickey	stuartsierra: I've got to get your dist patch in and try it. How do you see the release notes getting in there?
11:56	slashus2	But that :on-commit etc. in a map would be a good solution to the `when-commit` thing for the whole translation. Very elegant.
11:56	stuartsierra	rhickey: As a new file, changes.txt
11:56	rhickey	in the repo?
11:56	stuartsierra	rhickey: yes
11:57	stuartsierra	Or if you don't want it in the source, just post it on the web somewhere.
11:58	rhickey	stuartsierra: I just don't see it being maintained between releases, thus possibly confusing in the interim
11:58	stuartsierra	rhickey: yeah, could be a problem. Maybe make a 1.1 branch and just put changes.txt in there.
11:59	stuartsierra	Leave it out of master.
11:59	rhickey	we also have to decide how to handle the branch/tag thing. Bad to have both with same name in git
11:59	stuartsierra	Oh yeah, didn't think about that.
12:00	stuartsierra	Is 1.0 a tag or a branch?
12:00	rhickey	that was a painful aspect of moving from SVN
12:00	rhickey	stuartsierra: both
12:00	la_mer	rhickey: yes, we use watchers, on atoms
12:00	rhickey	la_mer: watchers or watches?
12:00	stuartsierra	Hmm, ok, that's not good. I'll research tagging in git, never used that much before.
12:01	chouser	maybe the tag should be 1.0.0 and the branch should be 1.0 or 1.0.x
12:01	rhickey	chouser: you mean 1.1?
12:01	cemerick	damn colloquy
12:01	cemerick	rhickey: watches
12:01	chouser	er. yes. :-)
12:02	rhickey	cemerick: ok, so not using add-watcher
12:02	cemerick	nope, add-watch
12:02	cemerick	add-watcher is agent specific, if memory serves?
12:02	drewr	stuartsierra: the emacs repo might be something to mimic regarding tag/branch names http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=emacs.git;a=summary
12:03	stuartsierra	rhickey: chouser's suggestion is what you have now, isn't it? "1.0" is a tag and "1.0.x" is a branch
12:03	rhickey	cemerick: add-watcher is just derived from add-watch
12:03	stuartsierra	drewr: where can I see tag/branch names there
12:04	stuartsierra	drewr: never mind
12:04	rhickey	stuartsierra: yes, I think after fixing up
12:05	stuartsierra	Diff between "1.0" and "1.0.x" is minimal.
12:06	drewr	stuartsierra: they tag releases and have maintenance branches from which further minor versions would stem
12:06	stuartsierra	So get "master" ready for release, then tag "1.1". If maintenance patches are needed, create branch "1.1.x".
12:06	stuartsierra	drewr: makes sense
12:08	drewr	you may want to branch first (1.0, e.g.), then create tags at milestones like RELEASE_1.0.0, _1.0.1, etc.
12:08	rhickey	no, branch first
12:08	rhickey	so we can put in release notes right?
12:08	stuartsierra	oh, right
12:08	stuartsierra	Same thing from Git's point of view, I think.
12:09	rhickey	really? won't that leave the release notes in master?
12:09	stuartsierra	Yes. I meant, branch first.
12:10	stuartsierra	My only point was it doesn't matter to Git.
12:10	stuartsierra	Both the tag and the branch head will point to the same commit.
12:10	rhickey	stuartsierra: did you see my comment on: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/218-Deprecate-old-launch-Classes ?
12:10	stuartsierra	Now I have.
12:10	drewr	stuartsierra: yes, for that commit, but further releases based on that branch will have diverged
12:10	stuartsierra	drewr: right
12:11	headius	rhickey: why are there no javadocs for the clojure java bits?
12:11	stuartsierra	rhickey: I'll try to figure out what the argument translation should be
12:11	headius	I eventually had to poke around the code directly last night to call clojure from jruby
12:11	lghtng	question: if i want to articulate an ansi stream to a map, what function should i be focusing on?
12:11	stuartsierra	headius: technically the Java bits aren't a public API
12:11	headius	that needs to change
12:12	stuartsierra	headius: Yes, in time.
12:12	headius	ok, how about....now!
12:12	chouser	headius: the java bits are slated to disappear. :-)
12:12	rhickey	headius: I hadn't decided which of those bits I wanted people to use and which are implementation details
12:12	headius	there's certainly a lot of implementation details, but in order for other languages to integrate clojure, they'll need an API
12:13	headius	and unless you want them to use the bits likely to change...
12:13	rhickey	and as chouser says, good thing I didn't, although there should be better docs for the few interation points you need to know about
12:13	headius	we have the same problem with jruby, and only recently got a solid embedding API
12:13	headius	so I can appreciate that
12:13	stuartsierra	For the record, when I wrote about Java interop for a book (which may someday be published) I documented RT.eval, RT.var, Var.get, and Var.invoke.
12:13	headius	but there's not even javadoc comments in the java code
12:13	rhickey	stuartsierra: that's fine
12:13	Draggor	Could someone point me to a compojure example to deal with file uploads?
12:14	stuartsierra	I've thought about writing a javax.scripting wrapper.
12:14	headius	bleah, nobody would want to use javax.script for tight integration
12:14	headius	it's a "toss it over the wall" sort of API
12:14	stuartsierra	JRuby uses it.
12:14	headius	uses it for what?
12:15	stuartsierra	Calling JRuby from Java.
12:15	stuartsierra	Or at least that's how I used it.
12:15	headius	we also have a full-on embedding API which we usually recommend for tight integration
12:15	headius	as of 1.4
12:15	stuartsierra	ah, news to me
12:15	rhickey	headius: I was for a long time the only consumer of the Java bits, and didn't need javadoc, so strictly my fault
12:15	headius	rhickey: fair enough...I can't say we're perfect in that regard either
12:15	headius	I was trying to find docs for this: http://gist.github.com/258565
12:16	rhickey	headius: cool! (looks like you found it :)
12:17	headius	eventually did find a calling-clojure-from-java example on the site in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’
12:18	stuartsierra	headius: who put a filing cabinet in a lavatory?
12:18	headius	anyway, just thought I'd mention it, because I spent about a half hour trying to find what I expected to be a prominent javadoc link
12:18	headius	I pounded my fist not once, but twice
12:18	rhickey	headius: sorry about that, not an unreasonable expectation
12:19	headius	I could have pretty smooth two-way integration with jruby given some time, and obviously there's the duby idea if I get time for that
12:19	rhickey	there should at least be 'embedding' notes on http://clojure.org/java_interop
12:19	headius	anyway...rhickey: if you get a chance, you might jump on on the jvm-l thread on common compiler infrastructure
12:20	rhickey	headius: I've been reading, hope to chime in
12:20	stuartsierra	Does anyone remember how the arguments to clojure.lang.Repl and clojure.lang.Script worked?
12:20	headius	I assume you would like a common type-wrangler cat-herder to plug into for java type resolution just like we would
12:20	headius	ok, cool
12:21	rhickey	headius: yes definitely - I hate herding cats
12:21	headius	nobody should have to write java method resolution themselves
12:21	headius	since we've all done it at least once
12:21	headius	for others: http://groups.google.com/group/jvm-languages/browse_thread/thread/4f20c8c916db33cb
12:21	chouser	stuartsierra: nope. But don't the current implementations do the "right thing" to translate old command lines into clojure.main calls?
12:22	rhickey	chouser: right, just look there
12:22	stuartsierra	yeah, yeah, read the source, whatever ;)
12:23	chouser	stuartsierra: thanks for doing this. I've been feeling unusually short on time recently.
12:24	chouser	I feel a bit bad filing a bug like that and then walking away.
12:24	stuartsierra	no problem, I've got a bit of a break right now, the luxury of academia on winter break
12:25	rhickey	stuartsierra: chouser: ok, I've applied 224 locally, waiting for 218 and I'll push
12:26	stuartsierra	I'm on it
12:26	rhickey	so did anyone ever use 1.0.x branch?
12:27	rhickey	devlinsf: I've been trimming down the release notes, and will pull into a local file soon so future changes to google doc will not make it
12:28	chouser	looks like one bugfix was applied after 1.0.0
12:28	rhickey	best laid plans...
12:29	chouser	Hey, I'm happy. If someone had wanted it, there were several other patches that would have had to be backported.
12:29	chouser	Glad nobody has been demanding that.
12:29	rhickey	chouser: yes, definitely
12:29	chouser	1.1.1 seems even less likely to be needed with 1.2 so far along and so attractive.
12:30	rhickey	chouser: definitely good to have a branch, just for emergencies
12:30	chouser	oh, yes.
12:31	stuartsierra	rhickey: new patch up for #218
12:31	rhickey	stuartsierra: thanks!
12:31	stuartsierra	rhickey: you're welcome
12:35	devlinsf	rhickey: Can you provide a deadline for input in the docs?
12:35	cemerick	rhickey: we stacked patches on top of 1.0.x for a while, but that certainly didn't require any coordination on your part
12:36	rhickey	devlinsf: now? :) Really, I have been taking out most of the docs. Docs go in docstrings or on the site, examples can go somewhere else too. I just want simple release notes
12:38	devlinsf	rhickey: Okay. If the decision is to remove the examples (and that seems to be what you did), then I have nothing to add at this time. Should examples just be posted to the list as needed? Inserted into the (seldom used) wiki?
12:42	rhickey	devlinsf: I think your motivation there was good. We definitely need a good set of examples for every function and a wiki-like place to put them. The clojure.org wiki is closed, but assembla might be a good place, so all contribbers could make examples. Needs someone to spearhead it...
12:44	rhickey	devlinsf: I did move the pre/post docs to the clojure.org site http://clojure.org/special_forms
12:45	devlinsf	rhickey: Cool. Lemme think about stepping forward with the exampels effort.
12:45	devlinsf	rhickey: Holidays & all
12:45	jasapp	devlinsf: if you need some help with examples, I'd be happy to contribute
12:45	rhickey	devlinsf: right, that ould be great - just propose on clojure-dev first for input, we need to pay some attention to the assembla wiki structure (I haven't)
12:46	stuartsierra	also hard to keep that sort of thing current
12:47	rhickey	stuartsierra: playing with ant dist on clojure - should .gitignore be in the zip?
12:48	devlinsf	rhickey: I would need my membership bumbed to member for core, btw
12:48	devlinsf	rhickey: Only contrib right now
12:48	rhickey	devlinsf: done
12:48	devlinsf	rhickey: thanks
12:51	stuartsierra	rhickey: I think so. Maybe I'm wrong.
12:51	rhickey	is it in the repo?
12:51	stuartsierra	Yes.
12:51	rhickey	ok, then should be in there
12:52	stuartsierra	I tried to make ant dist include everything that is in a git clone, except .git/
12:52	stuartsierra	Plus clojure.jar of course
12:52	replaca	Q: does (count "hello") operate on the string directly (like (.length "hello")) or does it convert to a seq first?
12:53	chouser	replaca: direct
12:53	chouser	so, O(1) not O(n)
12:54	replaca	awesome, thx (whenever I have a .foo, I feel a little dirty :-))
12:56	rhickey	ok, 218 and 224 are up, master should be very close to 1.1
12:58	lghtng	Keats: A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
12:58	stuartsierra	You get that sandwich, you.
13:00	technomancy	225 would be a really simple fix for 1.1 as well; just found two overlapping defs yesterday in core.clj
13:00	technomancy
13:07	devlinsf	technomancy: Re: #225 I like bound-fn? better.
13:09	defn	Is there any clerical work that one could contribute to clojure/clojure-contrib? My chops aren't there yet but I've been thinking about sending in the form
13:11	devlinsf	defn: There is a TON of documentaion & examples to generatte
13:11	jasapp	hey, I'd love to help too
13:13	technomancy	devlinsf: it's not a predicate though
13:16	defn	devlinsf: cool, ill send in the form today
13:18	replaca	Best doc string ever:
13:18	replaca	,(doc future-cancel)
13:18	clojurebot	"([f]); Cancels the future, if possible."
13:18	devlinsf	technomany: Hmmm... then what was your motivation in having ? in the name
13:18	devlinsf	technomancy: Hmmm... then what was your motivation in having ? in the name
13:20	technomancy	devlinsf: it returns a predicate
13:22	devlinsf	technomancy: Okay, it's a factory
13:30	rhickey	technomancy: I'm fixing now
13:34	rhickey	wow, so no one uses subseq?
13:35	stuartsierra	wazzat?
13:35	stuartsierra	,(doc subseq)
13:35	clojurebot	"([sc test key] [sc start-test start-key end-test end-key]); sc must be a sorted collection, test(s) one of <, <=, > or >=. Returns a seq of those entries with keys ek for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare ek key)) 0) is true"
13:35	replaca	rhickey: I just threw you a minor patch for doc string formats - makes the autodoc look cleaner
13:35	technomancy	rhickey: I think subseq uses the version of bound-fn that wins
13:35	rhickey	ah. makes sense
13:36	rhickey	replaca: what patch #?
13:36	replaca	ticket 226
13:36	stuartsierra	~#226
13:36	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:36	stuartsierra	~ticket 226
13:36	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:37	replaca	stuartsierra: that was an answer to rhickey, not a question :-)
13:37	stuartsierra	I know.
13:37	stuartsierra	I was trying to remember how to make ClojureBot print URLs for tickets
13:38	rhickey	erm, whitespace errors - what do they mean?
13:38	technomancy	stuartsierra: I think clojurebot just hasn't polled the ticket list yet
13:38	technomancy	syntax is right
13:38	replaca	stuartsierra: there needs to be a better way to find out how clojurebot does this or that
13:39	replaca	rhickey: hmm, dunno. I did change a tab to a space, maybe that's what it's complaining about (or maybe it didn't clean up a line ending when I added a newline)
13:39	replaca	lemme check
13:39	rhickey	replaca: I ignore them, just wondered if they matter
13:40	rhickey	replaca: any reason why clojure.core is by Unknown?
13:41	rhickey	and clojure.main
13:41	stuartsierra	I think whitespace errors means you have spaces at the end of a line.
13:41	stuartsierra	It's a warning generated by git.
13:41	rhickey	stuartsierra: right - should I care about it?
13:42	technomancy	there are a bunch of optional hooks in .git/hooks that get activated if you chmod them to executable
13:42	technomancy	one of them will keep you from committing if you have trailing whitespace
13:43	stuartsierra	rhickey: probably not
13:43	replaca	rhickey: yeah, it's just the line endings
13:44	replaca	replaca: I think because of ticket 130. Core is the one place I can't work around that
13:46	lithper	Hello... anyone home?
13:46	lithper	I decided to try Clojure today and I'm not off to a good start.
13:46	lithper	Running a freshly downloaded version 1.0.0 on Snow Leopard I get this:
13:47	lithper	[ron@mickey:~/Desktop/clojure_1.0.0]$ java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.ReplException in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/Repl
13:47	lithper	Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.Repl
13:47	lithper	at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:200)
13:47	lithper	at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
13:47	lithper	at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:188)
13:47	lithper	at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:315)
13:47	lithper	at sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader.loadClass(Launcher.java:330)
13:47	lithper	at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:250)
13:47	lithper	at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClassInternal(ClassLoader.java:398)
13:47	stuartsierra	lithper: pastebin please :)
13:48	scgilardi	that's an unfortunate bug in the readme.txt. clojure.jar doesn't exist in the 1.0.0 distribution. please substitute the corresponding jar with a numeric suffix. java -cp clojure-1.0.0.jar clojure.lang.Repl
13:48	lithper	Sorry, I don't use IRC very often.
13:48	lithper	Oh... duh.
13:48	lithper	Thanks.
13:49	lithper	The quickstart on the web page has the same "bug" BTW.
13:49	scgilardi	some more info here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/bbdb4adf1fd11001/510430e7da8fd7f6?lnk=gst&q=gilardi#510430e7da8fd7f6
13:50	replaca	lithper: we're in the process of pushing out 1.1 which should be a little cleaner about how things are documented, but Clojure is young yet!
13:51	lithper	No worries, I know how it goes.
13:51	LauJensen	How do I make this work? (ns test (:gen-class :main true :name test)) (def inst (test.)) ?
13:51	LauJensen	Simply put, I want to extend a class with gen-class and instantiate it
13:52	lithper	@scgilardi: that post says that the entry point should be clojure.main, not clojure.lang.Repl
13:52	stuartsierra	LauJensen: Use (Class/forName "test")
13:52	scgilardi	is there a ticket already for ensuring the quickstart at the website and the readme.txt work out of the box with 1.1?
13:52	stuartsierra	scgilardi: don't know, but my "ant dist" creates a ZIP containing "clojure.jar"
13:52	scgilardi	lithper: right, clojure.main is the more modern entry point. I recommend you use it. both will work.
13:53	lithper	Cool. All else being equal, less typing is better :-)
13:53	rhickey	scgilardi: we just deprecated Repl
13:53	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I get this when I call compile on the ns, java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: test$loading__6213__auto____2583
13:53	scgilardi	stuartsierra: ok, that should get us either all the way tehre or mostly.
13:53	scgilardi	rhickey: I saw that. Nice.
13:54	scgilardi	LauJensen: does it help to :import that class? Also, it's not going to work until you've aot compiled the genclassed namespace and have it available on classpath.
13:55	chouser	LauJensen: you can't use a class that has no package name
13:55	stuartsierra	LauJensen: You also can't instantiate a class that hasn't been compiled yet.
13:55	chouser	you need at least lau.test
13:55	LauJensen	Really, why ?
13:55	stuartsierra	So you can't do (ns foo (:gen-class)) (def instance (new foo))
13:56	lithper	BTW, I presume that since clojure is a Java program, I can run it in a browser, yes?
13:56	rhickey	so, do we want clojure.jar in the zip or clojure-1.1.0.jar?
13:57	sbenitezb	versioned is better
13:57	lithper	@rhickey: why not just use a symlink?
13:57	stuartsierra	I couldn't decide. The readme says "clojure.jar", so that's what I used.
13:57	stuartsierra	lithper: Yes, Clojure can run in a browser, subject to some Java security wrangling.
13:57	scgilardi	I think we already fixed the problem where where 1.0 calls itself 1.0.0- on launch when there's no qualifier (alpha, new, etc.). It shouldn't print the trailing -.
13:57	stuartsierra	lithper: symlinks aren't cross-platform.
13:57	chouser	lithper: clojure uses a custom classloader by default for non-AOT-compiled code, which won't work without signing the .jar in a normal browser Java environment.
13:58	lithper	OK, sounds like more than I want to get into at the moment. I'll just run it standalone for now.
13:58	lithper	Thanks!
13:58	sbenitezb	shouldn't it be treated as .so files, so they don't clash if multiple versions live in the classpath?
13:58	rhickey	the directory it is in has a version number in it
13:59	bagucode	technomancy: Hi, saw the conversation between you and David on the mailing list. Moved setFork in my leiningen so that it's only used when native libs are used.
13:59	KirinDave_	does anyone have a really outstanding monad tutorial I could go over?
13:59	rhickey	since the normal ant build copies to clojure.jar, I think we should go with that
13:59	KirinDave_	I'm having a lot of trouble getting them.
13:59	rhickey	any issues with that?
14:00	rhickey	KirinDave_: monads are not an important part of Clojure, if that matters
14:00	KirinDave_	rhickey: I keep running into people using them.
14:00	KirinDave_	rhickey: And their code seems very short compared to how i'd normally have to write what they're doing.
14:01	scgilardi	rhickey: I like that plan: using clojure.jar without a version number qualifier in the distributed zip.
14:01	LauJensen	I've added the package name now, so one.test, and calling compile actually generates about 10 class files, including one.test.class, but when I instantiate it, I get a NoClassDefFound error, what gives?
14:02	rhickey	KirinDave_: I'm not trying to discourage you - go for it
14:02	chouser	LauJensen: you have your "classes" output directory in you classpath?
14:02	LauJensen	Yes sir
14:03	bagucode	KirinDave_: Have you looked at this? http://onclojure.com/2009/03/05/a-monad-tutorial-for-clojure-programmers-part-1/
14:03	scgilardi	also http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/monads_101.html
14:03	KirinDave_	bagucode: I do...
14:03	KirinDave_	err, I have
14:04	KirinDave_	and I sort of get the structure of a monad
14:04	KirinDave_	But I still can't identify what "mystery" in part 2 is.
14:04	KirinDave_	When i run it, it always returns nil no matter what.
14:04	LauJensen	Chouser, I got it
14:05	LauJensen	First remove the instantiation, then compile, re-insert it, re-compile
14:05	stuartsierra	LauJensen: You really shouldn't try to instantiate something in the top-level of the namespace that defines it.
14:06	bagucode	KirinDave_: Well, I just remembered seeing that tutorial (and the one that scgilardi linked). I don't really get it either ;) and I get along just fine in Clojure anyway.
14:06	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I was mimicing a Java example - How else would you do iit?
14:06	KirinDave_	I want to understand this code: http://intensivesystems.net/tutorials/code/web_session.clj
14:06	KirinDave_	That's some hardcore stuff.
14:06	stuartsierra	LauJensen: Provide a constructor function that returns a new instance.
14:07	stuartsierra	Remember, compiling a .clj file is equivalent to executing it.
14:07	stuartsierra	All your top-level defs get evaluated.
14:08	stuartsierra	got to go
14:09	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Am I mixing up terms here? Calling compile AOT compiles right?
14:09	rhickey	I guess we have to stick with googlecode for downloads with stats?
14:10	chouser	LauJensen: compiles and executes, as it must.
14:12	LauJensen	kthx
14:12	LauJensen	rhickey: You want to know how many clones, or how many does regular downloads?
14:13	rhickey	LauJensen: downloads
14:13	rhickey	of the zip release
14:14	LauJensen	Yea I think you need to put it somewhere else
14:16	rhickey	so with the branch in the name, is it going to end up being clojure-1.1.0-1.1.x-RELEASE.zip?
14:16	chouser	yikes
14:16	rhickey	right
14:16	chouser	can we assume RELEASE if it's not SNAPSHOT?
14:17	chouser	maybe that's not the maven way
14:17	rhickey	I'm more concerned about 1.1.0-1.1.x
14:17	rhickey	the maven way, that's what I am clueless about
14:18	chouser	I suspect I violated something by putting the branch name where "alpha" used to be. But people who seemed to know maven didn't seem to mind
14:18	chouser	but if it were still "alpha", what would be there for release? "release"?
14:18	chouser	clojure-1.1.0-release-RELEASE.zip?
14:19	scgilardi	chouser: I think "qualifier" is a generic name for a reason.
14:20	scgilardi	when downloading jars using maven, ones with specific versions do not have a suffix. for example: spring-core-2.5.6.jar
14:20	scgilardi	s/specific/final
14:24	rhickey	so now in the 1.1.x branch I should change qualifier to what?
14:25	rhickey	for the release candidates and then release
14:25	chouser	ah! that's it.
14:25	chouser	rc0, rc1 for release candidates?
14:25	chouser	then ... blank for release?
14:25	rhickey	or just rc and I can number the zips?
14:26	scgilardi	final release should have no qualifier
14:26	rhickey	that means missing or qualifer= nothing?
14:27	rhickey	what a .properties file comment?
14:27	rhickey	#?
14:27	bagucode	#
14:28	rhickey	hrm, clojure-1.1.0-${clojure.version.qualifier}.jar
14:28	rhickey	when missing
14:29	scgilardi	that's a weakness in our expansion. we should do some kind of if ${clojure.version.qualifier} 1.1.0-=${clojure.version.qualifier} else 1.1.0
14:29	scgilardi	s/=//
14:30	rhickey	ok when qualifier= nothing
14:31	rhickey	release candidate - interim= ?
14:32	rhickey	clojure-1.1.0-rc0-SNAPSHOT.zip?
14:32	scgilardi	looks like interim should be false
14:34	scgilardi	maybe: false for the one build that is rc0 and then true again until we generate rc1
14:43	dysinger	chouser: rhickey scgilardi the convention in maven repos is SNAPSHOT means just that and that normal releases don't have SNAPSHOT or anything else tagged onto them - just artifactId & version
14:44	dysinger	Is it necessary to have an RC ?
14:45	dysinger	We've all been following 1.1 snapshots for a long time
14:45	dysinger	What I meant is that it could just stay SNAPSHOT until final
14:46	rhickey	http://clojure.googlecode.com/files/clojure-1.1.0-rc0.zip
14:46	chouser	It's possible that naming an RC would get some of the 30% of users who have been on 1.0 to try 1.1 and perhaps find corners with bugs that the rest of us don't use.
14:46	dysinger	true
14:47	rhickey	dysinger: actually 30-40% of us haven't been
14:47	dysinger	ah
14:47	rhickey	people like their downloads
14:48	chouser	also can help test the .zip itself
14:48	dysinger	The way we do it on our team - and I feel like it's a solid git workflow is that master is production release code - branches are created for new work (sort of like "new" is now) - branches are created for release candidates also - then when things are stable we merge back to master.
14:48	scgilardi	readme.txt: To Run java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl :)
14:48	rhickey	there is now a 1.1.x branch
14:49	rhickey	scgilardi: nw you tell me! :)
14:51	dysinger	What I meant by the git workflow is that it's common to create a 1.1.x branch from the 1st day in git projects, then only merge back to master when it's stable and released.
14:51	LauJensen	rhickey: btw, regarding funding I had an idea - For the corporate contributors, couldn't you put up some pricetags for "1 week" "2 weeks" "1 month" "3 months" etc, I think that would motivate people to commit and then they could officially say that they supported Clojure for 1, or 52 weeks or such.
14:51	dysinger	that way people checking the code out can see that "master" means just that "the gold standard"
14:52	dysinger	rather than active development
14:53	rhickey	dysinger: doesn't master just mean last relase then?
14:53	dysinger	yes
14:53	rhickey	meh
14:53	dysinger	:)
14:54	dysinger	master is just another branch - depends on how you look at it.
14:55	Chousuke	git seems to have a rather interesting branch model
14:55	Chousuke	there are no branches for releases as far as I can tell
14:55	Chousuke	only tags.
14:55	Chousuke	I mean git the project.
14:56	Chousuke	then there's a maintenance branch and master and "next". hmm.
14:56	dysinger	I only use branches for active development
14:57	dysinger	I use master, test and next
14:57	dysinger	and other topic branches
14:57	headius	I always commit to master, but I'm still an svn user at heart
14:57	dysinger	master is the gold standard and base for branches, test is topic branches that need review/testing/etc, next is code that's going out the door next release
14:57	headius	if we didn't do it this way, we'd have a "dirty" branch everyone uses
14:57	the-kenny	master is the main-branch for development imo.
14:58	dysinger	that's svn thinking IMO
14:58	headius	but always one branch...unless you have hundreds of devs, everyone using their own branch is a major PITA
14:58	the-kenny	I use branching for developing additional "modules" while I work on master at the same time
14:58	LauJensen	rhickey: At the very bottom of this page, there's a broken link to trampoline: http://clojure.org/functional_programming
14:59	dysinger	headius:
14:59	Chousuke	did all the fixes for 1.0.0 even get applied to the 1.0.x branch? :/
14:59	dysinger	neat gem trick yesterday
14:59	dysinger	that will be useful for us.
14:59	chouser	Chousuke: I don't know if any were written
15:00	Chousuke	chouser: weren't there several patches for 1.0 in the ticket system? :/
15:00	Chousuke	at least I had one that applied both to master and 1.0
15:00	headius	dysinger: I'm talking to some maven repo folks about setting up a transparent gem server that automatically presents all maven artifacts as gems
15:00	headius	likely using my code as a seed
15:01	dysinger	neat
15:01	Chousuke	oh well, I suppose it'll take a few more release cycles until things get sorted out for real .)
15:01	chouser	Chousuke: I dup'ed several tickets over to 1.0, but I never tried applying the same patch and don't remember seeing any fresh patches applied to those tickets.
15:01	headius	I wanted this because I wanted to build off technomancy's stuff and make a tighter two-way integration of jruby and clojure, plus nice ruby wrappers for clojure collections for rubyists to use
15:02	rhickey	any other fixes for rc1 before I push it to googlecode and announce on ggroup?
15:02	dysinger	y it's neat
15:02	headius	project #153, whenever I get around to it
15:02	dysinger	headius: we have jruby / rails ui & clojure backend (systems) code (so does flightcaster & runa)
15:02	dysinger	so it's totally useful :)
15:03	Chousuke	rhickey: there's a slight doc problem in clojure.test I think
15:03	Chousuke	rhickey: it still refers to a solved bug on google code
15:03	LauJensen	Yea rhickey, I still think you need (nth idx coll) instead of (nth coll idx) :)
15:03	rhickey	Chousuke: that's not going to get fixed
15:04	chouser	dysinger: all in the same JVM instance?
15:04	dysinger	no different clusters
15:04	chouser	yeah, ok
15:04	dysinger	but mvn2gem would be useful for sharing code
15:05	dysinger	between clojure & jruby
15:05	dysinger	now we just ned gem2mvn (noo!! it burnses!)
15:05	scgilardi	rhickey: the changes.txt doesn't mention the deprecation of clojure.lang.Repl, clojure.lang.Script in the deprecation section. I put in a ticket.
15:05	lpetit	I did not follow the 1.1 stuff closely, is master still the target of the commits for 1.1, or is it done in a branch ?
15:06	rhickey	http://clojure.googlecode.com/files/clojure-1.1.0-rc1.zip
15:07	rhickey	scgilardi: ok
15:07	rhickey	lpetit: depends on the change - the one scgilardi just pointed out should be a patch against the 1.1.x branch
15:09	lpetit	rhickey: ah ok, so now 1.1.x
15:20	chouser	dysinger: is disclojure.org yours?
15:20	dysinger	no
15:21	dysinger	he's on twitter - I'm not sure who it is yet
15:21	chouser	oh. his name's right there at the bottom. Antoni Batchelli
15:21	maacl	Has anyone tried using couchdb-lucene from Clojure?
15:21	chouser	dunno how I missed that before
15:25	dysinger	maacl technomancy and I used that combo before
15:28	maacl	dysinger: Did you use any of the libs on github like clutch? I can't find any libs that appear to support it.
15:31	replaca	chouser: Toni is a clojure developer here in SF
15:34	dysinger	maacl: there is clutch (haven't tried) - we used clojure-couchdb
15:35	cemerick	maacl: we like clutch here, FWIW
15:35	cemerick	it's got a view server, which is handy
15:37	mudphone`	chouser: disclojure.org is anthony batchelli
15:38	maacl	cemerick: dysinger: But neither supports interacting with couchdb-lucene right?
15:38	chouser	thanks guys. It's a great service.
15:38	dysinger	maacl: correct
15:38	cemerick	maacl: I've never looked at couchdb-lucene at all. Haven't noticed anything about in clutch shrug
15:38	dysinger	maacl: couchdb-lucene is just a canned way to index couchdb docs
15:38	cemerick	I'm holding out for FTI baked in to couchdb
15:39	maacl	dysinger: so how did you solve that ? http-clj or ?
15:39	dysinger	cemerick: I saw some native erlang indexing on github the other day - haven't tried it yet.
15:39	cemerick	dysinger: yeah, it's coming. Saw chatter about it in #couchdb a couple months ago, so I figured I'd not bother with couchdb-lucene.
15:40	maacl	cemerick: Ok, so for now you just stick to supporting exact searches?
15:40	cemerick	hopefully we can get it without a store-format change
15:41	dysinger	maacl: our experience was that it just worked (couchdb-lucene)
15:41	cemerick	maacl: we don't have any pressing indexing requirements right now, no. It would definitely be handy, and not having it is almost to the point of being annoying, but we've got bigger fish to fry.
15:41	dysinger	and we used clojure to interact w/ couchdb via HTTP REST
15:41	cemerick	the clojure view server was way more of a win for us than indexing
15:42	dysinger	cemerick: github.com/bdionne/indexer
15:42	dysinger	cemerick: is that public (clojure view server code) ?
15:42	cemerick	dysinger: http://github.com/tashafa/clutch/
15:43	dysinger	ah
15:43	dysinger	I thought that was a client - not paying attention ....
15:43	cemerick	it's both
15:43	cemerick	double the value, baby!
15:43	cemerick	ahem.
15:44	lghtng	is rdfm in clojure?
15:44	chouser	lghtng: it's a separate lib
15:44	lghtng	ok
15:44	maacl	dysinger: ok, thks
15:54	chouser	LauJensen: thanks for reporting that broken link
15:54	LauJensen	np
15:55	chouser	it's fixed
15:55	LauJensen	Good - So I can finally get some trampoline action
15:56	LauJensen	About nth, am I the only one who thinks it should be changed?
15:57	chouser	I think it came up on the ggroup a while ago
15:59	lpetit	,(doc nth)
15:59	clojurebot	"([coll index] [coll index not-found]); Returns the value at the index. get returns nil if index out of bounds, nth throws an exception unless not-found is supplied. nth also works for strings, Java arrays, regex Matchers and Lists, and, in O(n) time, for sequences."
16:00	chouser	ok, there were a bunch of links I had missed in the Features section before. Those should be fixed now.
16:00	LauJensen	Good job
16:01	chouser	nth has the same arg-order as get
16:02	scgilardi	the doc seems to imply it works on O(1) time for all items mentioned except sequences. It's O(n) for (at least) Lists too, isn't it?
16:03	chouser	yeah, might be worth saying "for lists and sequences."
16:05	lpetit	,(doc get)
16:05	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
16:06	lpetit	,(get [:a :b :c] 1)
16:06	clojurebot	:b
16:06	lpetit	could the doc for get use something different than map as arg name ?
16:06	scgilardi	clojurebot adopting a 'tude or was he framed
16:07	lpetit	~source get
16:07	KirinDave_	Haha
16:07	KirinDave_	Helpful?
16:07	KirinDave_	What is clojure.lang.RT?
16:08	the-kenny	clojurebot: clojure.lang.RT
16:08	clojurebot	clojure is cheating
16:08	hiredman_	R(un)T(ime)
16:08	technomancy	KirinDave_: lots of the basic fns in clojure.core are wrappers around RT
16:08	hiredman_	~source c.l.RT
16:09	KirinDave_	Haha, man
16:09	KirinDave_	I love reading Clojure's source code, just to see java's syntax squeal like a pig.
16:11	lpetit	What's the future name of the protocol the arg named "map" in get's arglist will have to comply to ?
16:12	chouser	lpetit: probably Associative or something related
16:12	hiredman_	possibly something like the ILookUp interface
16:12	lpetit	chouser: yeah, I thought so, but currently ITransientAssociative just implements assoc()
16:12	chouser	oh, hiredman_'s probably closer
16:12	lpetit	ye
16:13	lpetit	s
16:13	chouser	I keep forgetting about ILookUp
16:14	lpetit	but would changing the doc from "([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present." to "([lookup-able key] [lookup-able key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present." would not necessary be an improvement, would it ? :-$
16:14	lpetit	s/would//
16:16	hiredman_	"this started out as a very specific function, now it is very generic, check the source"
16:17	lpetit	:)
16:19	hiredman_	,(doc reify)
16:19	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:19	hiredman_	of course not
16:20	hiredman_	,(alter-meta! #'get assoc :doc "magic")
16:20	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name get, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 954, :arglists ([map key] [map key not-found]), :doc "magic"}
16:20	hiredman_	,(doc get)
16:20	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); magic"
16:20	lpetit	oh
16:22	hiredman_	http://github.com/trotter/bert-clj <-- ooh
16:27	lpetit	What's the keyboard shortcut in emacs for switching focus from an editor to the REPL, and then back from the REPL to the editor ?
16:27	lghtng	C-x o
16:27	the-kenny	Or with slime-selector: C-c s r
16:28	the-kenny	(Slime selector is a really cool tool)
16:29	lpetit	it's the same shortcut for going in the REPL, and then later back to the editor ?
16:29	lghtng	its the shortcut for 'other window'
16:29	lpetit	the-kenny: what does slime-selector offer, apart the fact it's more keys to type ?
16:30	the-kenny	lpetit: It's a tool to switch between multiple lisp-related things.
16:30	lpetit	lghtng: it's like switching apps in the X system ?
16:30	the-kenny	For example open lisp-files, inferior lisp, the repl, help, slime connections, slime threads
16:30	lpetit	the-kenny: ok, so maybe you have to repeat it to go to the right thing ? (just trying to understand)
16:30	lghtng	there's a few ways, depending on your style: C-x o just hops the cursor to the other window, your slime selector is slime centric, there's also C-x b, which gives you a buffer menu
16:31	lghtng	and theres a few things like ido and ibuffers as if that werent enough :D
16:31	the-kenny	iswitchb ftw :)
16:32	lghtng	have it YOUR way :D
16:32	lpetit	lghtng: ok, one last question: if you have several buffers open for edition, and one for the REPL, you may have to hit o several times for going from "editor A" to the REPL ?
16:32	the-kenny	lpetit: No
16:32	the-kenny	Use C-x b for that
16:32	lghtng	yeah, i saw a video where a guy had a shortcut for opening a repl ON THAT FILE, but i dont recal it
16:32	lpetit	I was asking because I want to either find out the standard way to do that in Eclipse, or implement an additional keyboard shortcut in ccw in order to provide this to ccw users
16:33	lghtng	there are emacs shortcuts for eclipse
16:33	lghtng	its a setting or preference, i think
16:33	rullie	i doubt eclipse gives you a mini buffer
16:34	lghtng	no, but the keybindings are there
16:34	lpetit	lghtng: right for the shortcuts, but I tend to follow what Eclipse offers by default, and for whatever additional command that does not have an eclipse equivalent, I fall back to emacs like (not wanting to reinvent yet another way to trigger a command)
16:34	lghtng	also, there's a sbcl plugin for eclipse that does have a repl, might look at what they do
16:35	lpetit	rullie: I don't know exactly all the beauties a mini buffer can do in emacs, but what may come close in eclipse is the contextual menu
16:35	lpetit	?
16:35	the-kenny	technomancy: How often do you push new versions of swank-clojure up to elpa?
16:35	lghtng	theoretically, you can use clojure to simply make eclipse do whatever you want :D
16:36	lghtng	dont you have access to the eclipse libraries with the repl?
16:36	lpetit	lghtng: for clojure, there's already emacs, netbeans enclojure. So when I want to add a functionality, I first look at how it's done "on the surface", so that users being forced to do the switch do not have to re-learn what they should not have to: keyboard shortcuts
16:37	lghtng	i refer you to #emacs for keybinding debates
16:37	technomancy	the-kenny: very infrequently, but the elisp portions of swank-clojure are not very interesting. it's the jar that contains all the goodies.
16:37	doublindirection	lpetit, closest thing to minibuffer in eclipse is probably "Quick Access" Control-3 is the shortcut
16:37	lpetit	lghtng: not sure I'm following you, but the answer is it depends on what actual dependencies you've set in the project's classpath. ccw REPLs start new JVMs with the project's settings.
16:38	the-kenny	technomancy: okay.. how often do you push the .jar to clojars, then? ;)
16:38	lpetit	lghtng: no thanks for #emacs, it's already too confusing, I'm going to see what enclojure provides (hopefully it will already provide a shortcut ;-p )
16:38	technomancy	lpetit: C-c C-z goes from .clj files to the repl; I don't think there's a "most recent clj file" command.
16:38	lghtng	right, i think, im just saying that once you have an eclipse repl, then cant you just call the appropriate eclipse class or method whatever, like you do in emacs?
16:39	technomancy	the-kenny: well I haven't hacked on swank-clojure at all since clojars was made public
16:39	lpetit	technomancy: ok thanks, that's probably even closer to what I was after. In eclipse, the problem of going back is (alas) not a problem since it is very uncommon to have several editors open side by side
16:41	lghtng	like (add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook '(
16:41	lghtng	etc
16:41	lghtng	cant you do something like that at the eclipse repl?
16:42	lghtng	i think the J editor for ABCL does something similar, but i dont recall
16:48	lpetit	ok, cool, nothing to code: Eclipse provides Ctrl + F7 to navigate between the last 2 views having received the focus
16:48	lghtng	ex. (define-key clojure-mode-map "%C-C\C-e" 'lisp-eval-last-sexp))) or (define-key clojure-mode-map "%C-x " '(switch-to-buffer-other-window (slime-repl clojure)))
16:48	lghtng	oh, ok
16:50	polypus	do you guys know how to set the emacs cursor's foreground color?
16:50	LauJensen	æl,h
16:50	LauJensen	oops
16:51	LauJensen	polypus: some probably do, but the guys at #emacs are really the experts, usually you get quick answers
16:51	polypus	k ty
16:51	lghtng	another way is to do it globally (global-set-key (kbd "C-xr") '(switch-to-buffer-other-window (slime-repl clojure)))
16:52	lghtng	polypus: M-x apropos <ret> faces
16:53	lghtng	and yes, Lau is right
17:01	KirinDave_	Is there any work on getting GCLS entries for clojure up?
17:02	chouser	Gloucester County Library System?
17:02	chouser	Golden Crown Literary Society?
17:02	chouser	Graduate College - Life Sciences?
17:02	sbenitezb	probably garbage collector something?
17:03	KirinDave_	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=scala&lang2=hipe&box=1
17:03	KirinDave_	Great Computer Language Shootout. C'mon.
17:03	KirinDave_	Not that i really like the practice.
17:03	KirinDave_	But people keep asking me
17:03	technomancy	KirinDave_: isn't that pretty heavily biased against hotspot?
17:04	_mst	could we just call out to the java versions and say we're done? :)
17:04	KirinDave_	technomancy: They bring it to steady state.
17:04	_mst	sort of in the clojure spirit of pragmatism...
17:04	chouser	_mst: nice
17:04	KirinDave_	technomancy: All the java versions have that option.
17:05	chouser	just like clojure already has xml parsers, IO and GUI infrastructure, it already has the shootout covered. :-)
17:05	KirinDave_	So I take it that's a "No."
17:06	KirinDave_	Lots of people who are Scala users keep asking me what Clojure's performance is like.
17:06	KirinDave_	Like I know, or something. :)
17:06	chouser	point them at _ato's widefinder blog and say "faster than scala".
17:06	_mst	after recently being dragged along behind _ato's optimisation jag, I think I've had enough for a little while ;)
17:06	chouser	then shrug dismissively
17:06	KirinDave_	chouser: Link plz?
17:07	KirinDave_	I mean seriously, there are people who might be willing to go from scala to clojure and that'd be very pleasant for me.
17:07	chouser	KirinDave_: http://tinyurl.com/y9e9jo6
17:07	KirinDave_	I am not against Scala persay, but I am not a huge fan of languages with huge hoops to go through for heterogenous data structures.
17:07	KirinDave_	I'd rather do this upcoming proj in clojure than scala, but I need to get the majority on board with that.
17:17	danm_	KirinDave_: the trouble with scala for me, is the core language is too complex
17:17	danm_	what I like about lisp is how easy the core language is to "get"
17:17	KirinDave_	danm_: As an erlang developer I'm not complaining about that. :)
17:18	KirinDave_	But I just hate having homogenous data structures. It's so lame.
17:18	danm_	I think erlang is more simple like clojure
17:18	KirinDave_	I don't.
17:18	KirinDave_	The binary pattern matching syntax alone is a language unto itself. A cool language, mind you, but still.
17:18	danm_	it just doesn't have the overwhelming number of language features that scala has
17:18	chouser	rhickey: any desire to have merge and merge-with use transients?
17:18	the-kenny	Pattern Matching of erlang is one thing I miss in clojure
17:19	KirinDave_	the-kenny: Yeah.
17:19	chouser	~pattern matching
17:19	clojurebot	Huh?
17:19	chouser	~patterns
17:19	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:19	chouser	~google pattern matching clojure
17:19	clojurebot	First, out of 1770 results is:
17:19	clojurebot	brool » Pattern Matching In Clojure
17:19	clojurebot	http://www.brool.com/index.php/pattern-matching-in-clojure
17:20	hiredman_	,(doc match)
17:20	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:20	danm_	and working with a lisp has made me appreciate that less syntax is sometimes more ;)
17:20	hiredman_	I think there is some kind of matching macro in contrib these days
17:21	chouser	rhickey: or conj, for that matter.
17:21	danm_	chouser: nifty.
17:23	joshua-choi	I'm trying to decide something
17:23	joshua-choi	I have a library called FnParse that basically generates PEGs
17:23	joshua-choi	But it's pretty naive
17:23	joshua-choi	I want to split it into two libraries:
17:23	Chousuke	chouser: Hmm, do you think anyone ever uses conj to add more than a few items? /:
17:24	joshua-choi	one being a packrat parser, and the other being a Parsec-like, mostly-LL(1) parser
17:24	chouser	Chousuke: yeah, perhaps not conj. :-)
17:25	joshua-choi	My question is, when I split my parsing library, should I create completely separate repositories (on GitHub), or should I keep them in the same library?
17:26	joshua-choi	'Cause if I keep them together, then anyone who wants to use one would have to download (and build) the other...
17:26	joshua-choi	And their usage is really different
17:26	Chousuke	I should probably read a bit more about parsing before I continue porting my reader to the new branch ;P
17:28	hiredman_	:/
17:28	Chousuke	or actually it's ported already. I just want to rewrite it to something a bit more flexible.
17:28	hiredman_	if you split fnparse I have no idea which part I use
17:28	joshua-choi	Yeah
17:28	hiredman_	Chousuke: nice
17:28	drewr	joshua-choi: I would do it gradually
17:28	joshua-choi	In either case, I definitely would document the differences between the two
17:28	joshua-choi	Hmm
17:29	joshua-choi	See, I don't see a way to reconcile the two styles of parsing that I need to use
17:29	drewr	split them within the current repo, demarcate, evolve, demarcate, etc.
17:29	joshua-choi	Demarcate?
17:29	Chousuke	since I already have a working reader written in clojure I hope I can avoid all the nasty java-related headaches I had initially ;/
17:29	drewr	joshua-choi: figure out where the boundaries are
17:29	joshua-choi	Hmm.
17:30	Chousuke	I think it'd be fine to have them in the same repo initially
17:30	Chousuke	if it turns out they really need to be separate, you can split them
17:31	joshua-choi	I'll leave the current version alone in any case
17:31	joshua-choi	Hmm, maybe
17:31	drewr	Chousuke++
17:31	chouser	you can do releases as separate .zip or .jar files from a single git repo
17:31	joshua-choi	Is there a way to automate that?
17:31	chouser	probably. :-
17:31	chouser	:-)
17:31	joshua-choi	Do Ant or Maven or Leinegen (don't know how to spell it!) have any way to do that?
17:32	joshua-choi	I'm wondering if this is a common thing to do
17:32	hiredman_	ant will for sure
17:32	hiredman_	ant is xml shellscripting, so you can do whatever
17:32	joshua-choi	I'm kind of afraid of Ant; don't know a thing about it
17:33	joshua-choi	I was really happy when Leinegen (sp?) came out
17:33	Chousuke	Leiningen
17:33	Chousuke	just call it lein
17:33	joshua-choi	Lein-in-gen
17:33	tomoj	I'm still afraid of lein :(
17:34	joshua-choi	It looks really easy; at least, Clojars' documentation makes it seem so
17:34	drewr	actually a couple times
17:34	LauJensen	Aren't you guys trying to Clojuresque/Gradle yet? :)
17:34	joshua-choi	I haven't heard of that
17:34	tomoj	I'm ever more afraid of that, though for no good reason
17:34	hiredman_	I have a clojureql jar already
17:35	LauJensen	tomoj, it couldn't be simpler
17:36	hiredman_	just like I have a fnparse.jar (and had one forever until technomancy tried clojurebot and could get it to work with fnparse 2 so I had to get that, make a jar, and fix clojurebot to use it)
17:36	chouser	lein specs are in clojure and gradle are in groovy, right?
17:36	joshua-choi	Oh crap—you actually used FnParse 1 on ClojureBot?
17:37	hiredman_	I think it was 1
17:37	joshua-choi	I'm honored; but that was before monads and complex were added, which would have made your life easier
17:38	hiredman_	I doubt monads have ever made life easier
17:38	joshua-choi	They really do for defining parsers' semantics
17:38	hiredman_	I just do really simple parsing
17:39	somnium``	editing a project.clj and doing `lein deps` might be even easier than config.gem/rake gems install... will have to look as clojuresque
17:39	joshua-choi	Can Clojuresque do that sort of thing—build two JARs from different parts of the source tree?
17:40	hiredman_	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/hiredman/clojurebot/factoids.clj
17:41	technomancy	joshua-choi: leiningen doesn't support multi-module builds yet, but adding that is high on my list
17:41	joshua-choi	Wonderful
17:42	LauJensen	joschua, sure - Clojuresque is just a plugin for Gradle and Gradle does about everything conceivable
17:43	joshua-choi	Where would I find documentation to figure out how to do that?
17:44	LauJensen	sec
17:44	joshua-choi	hiredman_: Most of the places where you use fp/semantics would be clearer with fp/complex in FnParse 2
17:44	LauJensen	http://www.gradle.org/0.8/docs/userguide/userguide_single.html
17:44	LauJensen	and joshua-choi, see the 'Building the thing' section, http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojureql-where-are-we-going/
17:45	hiredman_	I will remember that next time I write a rule
17:46	hiredman_	although, really, that file is just begging for some attention
17:46	mabes	how do you test for structure and value equality? Meaning, I want to make sure a function returns a vector of [1 2 3] not (1 2 3)
17:46	joshua-choi	Well, if you've already written it, and it's not heavily maintained, there's no point in changing it until you have to
17:46	mabes	,(= [1 2 3] '(1 2 3))
17:46	clojurebot	true
17:46	joshua-choi	Use vector? I guess
17:47	mabes	hmm.. maybe clojure.test has something that like already...
17:48	somnium``	,(== [1 2 3] '(1 2 3))
17:48	clojurebot	false
17:48	somnium``	though
17:48	joshua-choi	,(== [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
17:48	clojurebot	false
17:48	somnium``	ah
17:48	somnium``	,(doc ==)
17:48	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the same value, otherwise false"
17:49	joshua-choi	,(letfn [(matches-vector? [obj vec] (and (vector? obj) (= obj vec)))] (matches-vector? (1 2 3) [1 2 3]))
17:49	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
17:49	joshua-choi	Eh?
17:50	joshua-choi	Oh
17:50	joshua-choi	,(letfn [(matches-vector? [obj vec] (and (vector? obj) (= obj vec)))] (matches-vector? '(1 2 3) [1 2 3]))
17:50	clojurebot	false
17:50	joshua-choi	Anyways, thanks for everyone's help
17:51	devlinsf	chouser: ping
17:51	joshua-choi	I think I'll keep FnParse Cat and FnParse Hound (those are the names I decided, but if you have better names, let me know!) in the same repository
17:51	joshua-choi	Ciao
17:56	hiredman_	,((comp (partial every? true?) (juxt (comp (partial reduce =) (partial map type)) (partial apply =)) list) [1 2] [1 3])
17:56	clojurebot	false
17:56	hiredman_	,((comp (partial every? true?) (juxt (comp (partial reduce =) (partial map type)) (partial apply =)) list) [1 2] [1 2])
17:56	clojurebot	true
17:56	hiredman_	,((comp (partial every? true?) (juxt (comp (partial reduce =) (partial map type)) (partial apply =)) list) [1 2] (1 2))
17:56	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
17:56	hiredman_	,((comp (partial every? true?) (juxt (comp (partial reduce =) (partial map type)) (partial apply =)) list) [1 2] '(1 2))
17:56	clojurebot	false
17:57	hiredman_	♥ juxt
17:57	devlinsf	:)
18:00	BrianB04	Good evening all.
18:30	defn	Doug McIlroy patented macros.
18:49	polypus	i'm gonna patent functions. bet nobody has yet
18:59	defn	Oooo, 1.1.0rc1
19:00	cark	,(doc juxt)
19:00	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Alpha - name subject to change. Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
19:01	cark	hum
19:01	devlinsf	Start w/ a map. Good for preserving order
19:02	devlinsf	,((juxt :a :b) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
19:02	clojurebot	[1 2]
19:02	cark	ah that's interesting
19:03	devlinsf	Yeah, then you can move on to other operations, like a mapping operator
19:04	devlinsf	,(map (juxt identity #(* % %)) (range 0 6))
19:04	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 1] [2 4] [3 9] [4 16] [5 25])
19:04	bitbckt	Seems more like distributivity than juxtaposition.
19:05	devlinsf	The idea is that it is the "pair" of composition
19:05	devlinsf	juxtaposition & composition sound the similar :)
19:06	devlinsf	er, similar
19:07	bitbckt	The resultant pairs don't share a contrasting relationship. The word seems semantically wrong.
19:07	devlinsf	Hmm... interesting
19:08	devlinsf	Well, the functions are done "side by side"
19:48	Draggor	Any compojure folk in here willing to lend a helping hand?
20:16	replaca	bitbckt: suggest a better name - maybe in the group. I know Rich isn't completely happy with "juxt" either
20:18	bitbckt	replaca: I did - dist, or similar - and I will.
20:27	replaca	bitbckt: cool
20:43	wlr	bitbckt: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-08-30.html#09:23-11:13
20:55	alexyk	is there a library function to dedup a sorted vector?
20:55	alexyk	i.e. uniq on Unix?
20:56	devlinsf	distinct
20:56	devlinsf	,(distinct [:a :b :a])
20:56	clojurebot	(:a :b)
20:57	alexyk	devlinsf: will it be efficient on a 10 million-length vector? I only want to dedup adjacents
20:57	devlinsf	Uhhh... I dunno
20:58	devlinsf	Never used it significantly over 10K
21:01	chouser	alexyk: it builds a set of all items seen
21:01	alexyk	chouser: so if I have a sorted vector, I'd probably be faster reduce'ing it, collapsing same runs, right?
21:02	chouser	probably
21:02	devlinsf	can you used a sorted set?
21:02	chouser	ooh, good question.
21:02	alexyk	devlinsf: is there such a thing? :)
21:02	chouser	,(sorted-set 5 3 4 3 2 2 5 1 3 1)
21:02	devlinsf	Mathematically, no :)
21:02	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 4 5}
21:03	devlinsf	In JavaLand, yes
21:03	alexyk	interesting
21:03	alexyk	,(doc sorted-set)
21:03	clojurebot	"([& keys]); Returns a new sorted set with supplied keys."
21:03	devlinsf	Yeah, really handy w/ strings
21:03	chouser	it's a red-black tree
21:03	alexyk	,(sorted-set 1 1 2 3 2 4 1 1 3)
21:03	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 4}
21:03	alexyk	cool
21:03	devlinsf	There's also sorted-set-by
21:04	devlinsf	,(sorted-set-by (comp - compare) 1 1 2 3 2 4 1 1 3)
21:04	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: sorted-set-by in this context
21:04	devlinsf	???
21:05	devlinsf	Uh... weird. Works in my REPL
21:06	devlinsf	,(doc sorted-set-by)
21:06	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:06	chouser	,(reduce #(if (= %2 (peek %1)) %1 (conj %1 %2)) [] [1 2 4 4 5 5 5 5 6 6 8])
21:06	clojurebot	[1 2 4 5 6 8]
21:06	chouser	,(reify Object)
21:06	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval$reify__4913 sandbox$eval$reify__4913@731e16>
21:07	chouser	devlinsf: I think clojurebot's using an old versions of the 'new' branch
21:07	devlinsf	Oh
21:07	chouser	at the moment
21:07	chouser	,clojure-version
21:07	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 1, :incremental 0, :qualifier "alpha"}
21:07	devlinsf	Okay, I'm not crazy
21:07	devlinsf	At least, not for this reason
21:07	chouser	:-)
21:10	devlinsf	chouser: Hey, you mentioned you had a chance to review my map docs
21:11	chouser	I did. Do you know about 'empty'?
21:11	devlinsf	I'm playing around with some other higher-higher-order functions, and wold like to know what you think of the first batch
21:11	devlinsf	empty?
21:11	devlinsf	Ah
21:11	devlinsf	That could help
21:12	chouser	I wasn't sure, but might that remove the need for the sorted vs unsorted fns
21:12	chouser	?
21:13	devlinsf	Hmmmm... seems to
21:13	devlinsf	I like it
21:13	devlinsf	No
21:13	devlinsf	It fails the following test
21:13	devlinsf	(let [s (sorted-set-by (comp - compare) 1 3 4)] (into (empty s) s))
21:14	devlinsf	It doesn't preserve the comparator
21:14	chouser	hm. I bet it's supposed to.
21:14	devlinsf	That would work for me
21:15	devlinsf	rhickey: ping
21:17	devlinsf	chouser: Did the visitors work, though?
21:17	chouser	http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/128
21:18	chouser	I haven't had a chance to try them yet, but I'm sure they do.
21:18	devlinsf	chouser: I'm working on a more general concept
21:22	devlinsf	chouser: http://fulldisclojure.blogspot.com/2009/12/intorducting-same.html
21:33	chouser	'same' is built directly on visitor?
21:34	devlinsf	no
21:34	devlinsf	Same idea
21:34	devlinsf	Same only needs a return fn, because the visit fn is identity
21:35	devlinsf	I added some gists in the past few minutes, sorry if it was confusing
21:37	chouser	oh, I had js off. :-)
21:38	devlinsf	Still using lynx?
21:38	devlinsf	:)
21:38	chouser	firefox + noscript. love it.
21:38	devlinsf	Ah
21:48	alexyk	is there a pill I can take to remember to destructure map as (fn [[k v]] ...), not (fn [k v] ...)? third time, third 15 mins spent today...
21:49	cp2	(fn [k v] ...): k, v are just normal parameter
21:49	cp2	s
21:49	cp2	there is no desctructuring going oon
21:50	alexyk	I know, I know. 3rd time today I know. :)
21:50	alexyk	it's just the dumbness is recurrent.
21:50	cp2	just remember the destructured params need to be in their own vector
21:50	cp2	ugh, this keyuboardd drives me nuts
21:50	alexyk	it's easy for you to say, just
21:51	alexyk	I need a funny verse to remember
21:51	devlinsf	alexyk: Just keep hacking
21:51	devlinsf	alexyk: You'll get it
21:51	cp2	agreed
21:51	alexyk	does Common Lisp have same destructuring as Clojure?
21:55	jasapp	it has some destructuring, but not nearly as much
21:55	jasapp	and it's not as clean, in my opinion, either
21:55	chouser	it's got destructuring-bind, but that's about multiple return values, right?
21:56	_mst	multiple-value-bind was return values
21:56	_mst	one of those features you rarely use because you fall asleep while typing it out :)
21:56	chouser	heh
22:18	alexyk	chouser: turns out I need the lengths of the runs, i.e., I need run length encoding. 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 => [1 2] [2 3] [3 3] [4 2] [5 5]. What's the fastest way to produce that from an unsorted vector?
22:19	alexyk	is there a sorted multi-set? :)
22:24	durka42	i thought sets don't have an order at all
22:24	alexyk	durka42: ,(doc sorted-set)
22:24	alexyk	,(doc sorted-set)
22:24	clojurebot	"([& keys]); Returns a new sorted set with supplied keys."
22:24	devlinsf	durka42: Mathematically, yes
22:28	durka42	,(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (map #(vector (first %) (count %)) (vals (group-by identity v))))
22:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: group-by in this context
22:28	durka42	,(use 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
22:28	clojurebot	nil
22:28	durka42	,(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (map #(vector (first %) (count %)) (vals (group-by identity v))))
22:28	clojurebot	([1 3] [2 3] [3 3] [4 2] [5 5])
22:30	devlinsf	,(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (map (juxt first count) (vals (group-by identity v))))
22:31	joshua-choi	Hey, is there a high-order function f so that (f g x [y0 y1 ... yn]) returns [(g x y0) (g (g x y0) y1) ... (g (... (g (g x y0) y1) ...) yn)]?
22:31	joshua-choi	In other words, a version of reduce that returns all the intermediate values too
22:31	devlinsf	reductions
22:31	devlinsf	c.c.seq-utils
22:31	joshua-choi	Excellent
22:31	alexyk	durka42: very nice
22:31	joshua-choi	Does it use chunked-seqs?
22:32	devlinsf	Dunno
22:32	joshua-choi	Yet?
22:32	devlinsf	Probably not, I don't think it has been touched yet
22:32	joshua-choi	Yeah, that makes sense; it's a bleeding-edge feature anyway
22:32	joshua-choi	But they're real nice
22:33	durka42	devlinsf: juxt is nice
22:33	joshua-choi	Is juxt slated for core 1.1?
22:33	devlinsf	It's in the RC
22:34	devlinsf	The name is up in the air.
22:34	durka42	i'm not a huge fan of the name but i like the function
22:34	devlinsf	We'll see what everyone says on the list, and Rich will decided
22:34	devlinsf	Admittedly, the name has been hard to get right
22:35	joshua-choi	If it's a useful function, it should have a short name [stating the obvious]
22:36	joshua-choi	But, is it a useful function? What would you use it for?
22:36	devlinsf	point free style
22:37	devlinsf	mapping operations, composition, group-by
22:37	devlinsf	join operations
22:38	joshua-choi	See, I use composition and group-by all the time; but juxt is a little more...well, I guess it is a composing function
22:38	devlinsf	Yeah, comp "reduces" a list of fns, right?
22:38	devlinsf	juxt maps them
22:38	joshua-choi	Oh
22:38	joshua-choi	Yeah, I see that
22:38	joshua-choi	That makes sense
22:39	alexyk	,(let [g [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5] gs (sort g) [v x c] (reduce (fn [[v x c] y] (if (= x y) [v x (inc c)] [(conj v [x c]) y 1])) [[] (first gs) 1] (rest gs))] (conj v [x c]))
22:39	clojurebot	[[1 3] [2 3] [3 3] [4 2] [5 5]]
22:39	hiredman_	for the record I have no problem with the name
22:39	hiredman_	~logs
22:39	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
22:42	joshua-choi	I've always wondered: is there a standard version of the some function that returns the first matching element, not the result of the predicate?
22:42	joshua-choi	(In other words, (comp first some).)
22:42	joshua-choi	Crap, I mean (comp first filter)
22:42	durka42	(comp first filter) is the recommendation i've seen
22:42	_ato	joshua-choi: there's a find-first in contrib
22:43	_ato	,(doc find-first)
22:43	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first item of coll for which (pred item) returns logical true. Consumes sequences up to the first match, will consume the entire sequence and return nil if no match is found."
22:43	devlinsf	read up on seq-utils, folks
22:43	joshua-choi	I should
22:43	devlinsf	http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/seq-utils-api.html
22:43	durka42	~source find-first
22:43	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:43	_ato	~def first-first
22:43	clojurebot	Huh?
22:43	devlinsf	_ato: Thanks
22:43	alexyk	,(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (map (juxt first count) (vals (group-by identity v)))) ; devlinsf?
22:43	_ato	err
22:43	clojurebot	([1 3] [2 3] [3 3] [4 2] [5 5])
22:43	_ato	~def find-first
22:43	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
22:43	alexyk	yay!
22:43	_ato	oh.. is it broken?
22:43	devlinsf	Yeah?
22:43	_ato	~def inc
22:44	_ato	hmm.. doesn't work for contrib I guess
22:44	alexyk	it works! :)
22:44	durka42	~def clojure.contrib.seq-utils/find-first
22:44	alexyk	you da man
22:44	durka42	^ dead link
22:44	alexyk	I wonder whether my single-sweep reduce is faster though than group-by then map
22:44	alexyk	but, I also have sort
22:45	durka42	only a questionable microbenchmark can tell!
22:45	alexyk	durka42: exactly
22:45	alexyk	btw, what we just did is a standard rle function (run length encoding) which must be in seq-utils :)
22:46	alexyk	as run-length-encoding
22:46	alexyk	how do I go about submitting it there?
22:46	durka42	,(frequencies [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5])
22:46	clojurebot	{4 2, 2 3, 3 3, 5 5, 1 3}
22:47	alexyk	I stand corrected: rle does not pre-sort. So I'd take my version and drop sort.
22:47	hiredman_	~source find-first
22:47	alexyk	frquencies sorts
22:47	durka42	well, frequencies is what we were doing, no?
22:48	alexyk	hiredman_: does it waste a tinyurl each time?
22:48	alexyk	durka42: yes, we did just that. But I also did RLE. :)
22:48	durka42	soon we'll have to transition to tinyURLv6!
22:48	alexyk	if you drop: gs (sort g) and replace gs by g in the rest
22:48	hiredman_	it used to memoize, but I think I turned it off for some reason and forgot to turn it back on
22:49	alexyk	well tinyurl must be smarter and check if it exists already, like tr.im does
22:50	hiredman_	alexyk: it might
22:50	hiredman_	infact, I think it does
22:51	alexyk	so, is there room for run-length-encoding in seq-utils? how do folks submit to c.c.x.y?
22:51	hiredman_	the last time I started clojurebot github was in maintence mode or something so it couldn't fetch the info for contrib
22:51	devlinsf	alexyk: Start with getting a CA to Rich
22:52	alexyk	CA?
22:52	devlinsf	Contributor agreement
22:52	devlinsf	http://clojure.org/contributing
22:53	devlinsf	Also, you might want to think about using partition by
22:53	alexyk	ok
22:54	devlinsf	(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (partition-by identity v))
22:54	devlinsf	,(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (partition-by identity v))
22:54	clojurebot	((1) (5) (3 3) (2) (4) (5 5) (4) (5) (1) (2) (1) (2) (3) (5))
22:54	devlinsf	,(let [v [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5]] (map (juxt first count) (partition-by identity v)))
22:54	clojurebot	([1 1] [5 1] [3 2] [2 1] [4 1] [5 2] [4 1] [5 1] [1 1] [2 1] [1 1] [2 1] [3 1] [5 1])
22:55	devlinsf	Is that you rle?
22:55	alexyk	that's more like it
22:55	alexyk	,(let [g [1 5 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 5 1 2 1 2 3 5] [v x c] (reduce (fn [[v x c] y] (if (= x y) [v x (inc c)] [(conj v [x c]) y 1])) [[] (first g) 1] (rest g))] (conj v [x c]))
22:55	clojurebot	[[1 1] [5 1] [3 2] [2 1] [4 1] [5 2] [4 1] [5 1] [1 1] [2 1] [1 1] [2 1] [3 1] [5 1]]
22:56	alexyk	aligns
22:56	alexyk	,(= 2 1)
22:56	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/*2 is unbound.
22:56	durka42	true
22:56	devlinsf	The partition-by solution is lazy
22:56	alexyk	,damn-you-clojurebot
22:56	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: damn-you-clojurebot in this context
22:57	alexyk	devlinsf: you mean it will yield par by pair?
22:57	devlinsf	Yeah
22:57	alexyk	pair
22:57	alexyk	and reduce is not lazy?
22:58	devlinsf	Dunno
22:58	devlinsf	depends on how you use reduce
22:58	alexyk	well, I do tack on the rest after reduce... wonder if that breaks lazyness
22:59	devlinsf	breaking lazyness isn't something I understnad 100%
22:59	alexyk	devlinsf: then you're not a manager :)
23:00	devlinsf	No, you've got it backwards
23:00	devlinsf	managers MASTER laziness
23:00	devlinsf	:)
23:00	alexyk	perhaps :)
23:00	hiredman_	reduce is not lazy
23:01	devlinsf	Right! It couldn't be
23:01	devlinsf	Duh
23:01	hiredman_	it can't be unless you have lazy evaluation, which clojure doesn't
23:02	alexyk	hiredman_: ueah, just a hard-working American function. None of that European socialist crap.
23:03	devlinsf	Uh-oh
23:03	joshua-choi	reductions can be lazy, though, which is really useful
23:03	alexyk	just a reminder to them lazy defns
23:04	devlinsf	"I get more done when I'm lazy"
23:05	devlinsf	http://www.zazzle.com/i_get_more_done_when_im_lazy_clojure_on_back_tshirt-235284015952434496
23:05	devlinsf	Check the front
23:06	alexyk	nice
23:09	alexyk	joshua-choi: what's a reduction, as different from reduce?
23:09	joshua-choi	No, I meant the reductions function from c.c.seq-utils that I was just introduced to
23:09	devlinsf	reductions
23:10	joshua-choi	It's proving very useful with filter
23:10	alexyk	ah ok
23:10	joshua-choi	Wish it was chunked though
23:11	devlinsf	I'm sure people will look into it post 1.1
23:11	devlinsf	(Within a few weeks)
23:11	alexyk	that T-shirt is $31.45, btw. Looks like the price was arrived at by a semi-random rearrangement of 1 3 4 5.
23:50	joshua-choi	Got a question on destructing bindings: namely, their speed
23:51	joshua-choi	According to http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/clojure-performance-tips, using destructuring in let (and so, probably fn too) is pretty slow
23:52	joshua-choi	Is this still the case in Clojure now?
23:52	joshua-choi	Or, in performance-intensive loops, should I still use direct getting instead?