#clojure – 2009-12-15

2009-12-15

00:05	hamza	guys, what is the best way to add 1 to a list contaning (2 3) so that i get (1 2 3), tried (concat 1 '(2 3)) but does not work?
00:06	_ato	,(cons 1 '(2 3))
00:06	hamza	_ato: thanks.. that worked..
00:07	hiredman_	,(cons 1 '(2 3))
00:07	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
00:07	hiredman_	_!
00:07	hiredman_	good lord freenode
00:32	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
00:32	clojurebot	PONG!
00:33	Raynes	hiredman: ping?
00:38	KirinDave1	Hmm
00:38	KirinDave1	Compojure+enlive's performance is damn impressive if you don't run the template every time.
00:39	KirinDave1	I wonder if I could genericize this into a macro.
01:20	hamza	guys i am kinda at lost, how would you turn a list such as ((1) (2 3 4)) into (1 (2 (3 4))) or reverse ((1 2 3) (4)) into (((1 2) 3) 4) ?
01:23	arbscht	,(reduce #(list %1 %2) (clojure.contrib.seq-utils/flatten '((1 2 3) (4))))
01:23	clojurebot	(((1 2) 3) 4)
01:23	hiredman	:\|
01:23	hiredman	list
01:24	hiredman	the anonymous function is not needed
01:25	arbscht	hm yes
03:27	LauJensen1	Morning team
03:55	tomoj	I wonder what the probability is that I will someday find a clojure job
03:56	esj	morning all
04:09	hoeck	tomoj: not that low, I think
04:10	hoeck	tomoj: at least I am very confident :)
05:26	shantanu	did anybody encounter this error while compiling Clojure sources through Maven?
05:26	shantanu	org.apache.maven.lifecycle.LifecycleExecutionException: Clojure failed.
06:00	ordnungswidrig	hi
06:01	esj	yo
06:03	ordnungswidrig	that was hard work. irc over ejabberd. connecting as a osx newbie trouble
07:35	aldebrn	Hi, I'm trying to use git clojure, and "ant clean jar" gives me hundreds of warnings, plus some errors in clojure/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Numbers.java all complaining about methods on toBigDecimal(x). This is on OpenJDK java version "1.6.0_0", any hints?
07:37	hamza	just a guess, but maybe some methods on suns api not availible on openjdk..
07:41	aldebrn	Thanks hamza. What's the difference between the clojure and the "clojure (new)" entities at build.clojure.org ?
07:43	the-kenny	aldebrn: new is based on the "new" branch on github. It has some new things like defprotocol/deftype
07:43	hamza	here is some more info if you are intrested,
07:43	hamza	http://stuartsierra.com/2009/12/14/objects-are-not-adts?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+StuartSierra+(Digital+Digressions+by+Stuart+Sierra)
07:44	hamza	talks about the new features in new branch
07:44	the-kenny	_ato: ping
07:44	aldebrn	Is new strictly a superset of non-new?
07:44	_ato	the-kenny: pong
07:44	the-kenny	_ato: Is that you compojure-jar on clojars?
07:45	the-kenny	*your
07:45	_ato	the one with ato in it?
07:45	_ato	yeah
07:45	the-kenny	Yes.
07:46	the-kenny	It looks like it's broken because clojure was renamed to "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"
07:46	_ato	egh.. annoying. Yeah that pretty much broke everything, I wish they symlinked it
07:48	the-kenny	hm.. maybe someone will symlink it.
07:49	_ato	hrmm..
07:49	_ato	I wonder if I can do it in Clojars actually
07:50	_ato	oh well, probably betters to just update all the jars, hopefully it won't get renamed again
07:51	liebke	the-kenny: I uploaded a version of Compojure to address that problem: [org.clojars.liebke/compojure "0.3.1-master"]
07:52	the-kenny	liebke: Ah, sounds good. That one wasn't listed in my search for "compojure"
07:53	liebke	yeah, the search doesn't seem exhaustive
07:56	_ato	search doesn't work if there's no description set. Damn have I still not pushed out the fix for that. I gotta stop tinkering with this widefinder stuff and give Clojars some more work
07:57	_ato	ugh... all the tutorials and such are going to be pointing at 1.1.0-alpha as well, aren't they?
07:57	_ato	perhaps I should upload the old snapshot
07:58	_ato	I guess it's better that people are out of date than can't get things to work at all
08:00	aldebrn	liebke, I'm about to send a message to incanter group asking about an error in compiling Incanter: it breaks with 'Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassFormatError: clojure.contrib.pprint.PrettyWriter (erroneous identifier) (io.clj:22)' and I wanted to apologize in advance for asking what must have a very simple answer...
08:00	Chousuke	aldebrn: you might want to try recompiling clojure-contrib
08:01	hamza`	i had this error, when i compiled clojure-contrib without pointing clojure.jar
08:01	hamza`	even if clojure.jar is in your classpath for some reason it won't pick it.
08:01	aldebrn	That's where I know it from too, but incanter build includes clojure
08:01	liebke	aldebrn: yes, Chousuke and hamaza' are right
08:01	liebke	which build script are you using?
08:01	liebke	ant or maven?
08:10	_ato	ok, I've just pushed the old-named clojure jar to clojars' repository: http://clojars.org/repo/org/clojure/clojure/
08:10	liebke	aldebrn: if you're using maven, I wonder if you have a version of clojure-contrib in your repository that isn't pointing to the clojure jar. If you're using ant (and ant deps), then I don't know what's wrong :-(
08:10	_ato	that should at least serve as a temporary measure
08:11	_ato	come on 1.1 so we can all start pointing everything at stable version numbers
08:11	liebke	_ato: nice :-)
08:17	Chousuke	_ato: until everyone starts using defprotocol and deftype and then you need git master for everything again ;P
08:18	Chousuke	Hm, I wonder if it's right to call transient things "transient values"
08:19	Chousuke	I don't want to call them mutable because they're more than that.
08:20	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: more than mutable?
08:20	cemerick	Chousuke: if they're mutable, it's hard to call them 'values'
08:20	cemerick	IMO
08:20	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: yeah. they're really mutable only as an implementation detail .)
08:21	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: I see. No third state after immutable and mutable
08:22	Chousuke	I just think it's important that people not think of them as mutable things.
08:23	Chousuke	because you can't use them to write imperative algorithms.
08:23	esj	is there simpler way to select a subset of values from a hash-set directly, or is (into [] (map #({:a 3 :b 3 :c 4} %) '(:c :a))) the way ?
08:23	Chousuke	esj: (into [] the-map [:c :a])
08:24	Chousuke	hm
08:24	Chousuke	forgot map
08:24	Chousuke	oh well.
08:24	Chousuke	I think there's something in the clojure.set namespace too. maybe.
08:24	chouser	"transient collections"?
08:25	esj	,(into [] {:a 3 :b 3 :c 4} [:a :c])
08:25	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$into
08:25	Chousuke	chouser: yeah, but the intermediate things? :/
08:25	chouser	esj: select-keys
08:25	Chousuke	esj: yeah, you need the map still. I was just too hasty :P
08:25	esj	:)
08:26	Chousuke	,(into [] (map {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:a :c]))
08:26	clojurebot	[1 3]
08:26	chouser	Chousuke: what intermediate things?
08:26	chouser	,(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :a :c)
08:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$select-keys
08:26	Chousuke	chouser: those values you get when you're actually building the data structure.
08:26	esj	,(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 3} [:a :c])
08:26	clojurebot	5
08:26	chouser	those are transients, aren't they? transient collections.
08:26	esj	thanks guys, in business now.
08:27	Chousuke	collections is too long a name ;P
08:27	chouser	heh
08:28	Chousuke	I don't think "transient value" is too bad a name. it's immutable for the duration of its lifetime :)
08:28	Chousuke	which is exactly until you try to mutate it.
08:29	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: ant then?
08:31	Chousuke	hm?
08:32	cemerick	'value' has a very specific implication of immutability AFAIK. Consider, would "mutable integer" make sense?
08:32	rhickey	transient value is a contradiction
08:32	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: argl, I meant, "and then?" after you try to mutate them
08:33	Chousuke	ordnungswidrig: the reference becomes invalid and using it again means undefined behaviour.
08:33	Chousuke	all the functions return new transient things that you should use.
08:33	ordnungswidrig	Chousuke: i see
08:36	chouser	just leave off the second word like we do with locals. They are transients.
08:36	chouser	"transient" is a noun in this case
08:42	chouser	asking for donations apparently gets you some money and lots of opinions. :-)
08:43	Chousuke	heh
08:43	rhickey	actually I'm glad it hasn't devolved into arguments about open source and free software in general
08:44	cemerick	rhickey: mostly ;-)
08:44	rhickey	right
08:45	praptak	A quick syntax question - does (fn [] 3) have a #() equivalent?
08:45	Chousuke	not really.
08:46	Chousuke	#(do 3) is the closest you can get :)
08:46	chouser	praptak: not really. You can say #(do 3) but that's rather ugly
08:46	praptak	Thanks, I was just curious.
08:46	chouser	praptak: (fn [] 3) is fine. Or (constantly 3)
08:46	cemerick	I usually use constantly -- code == docs.
08:47	rhickey	yes
08:47	praptak	@chouser: Thanks, I didn't know about constantly.
08:47	ordnungswidrig	i like constantly
08:50	praptak	Ah, it even works for any number of arguments
08:51	chouser	right, so not exactly the same as (fn [] 3)
08:53	cemerick	rhickey: have you bothered to look at any of the jdk7 closure stuff since devoxx?
08:53	ordnungswidrig	Chouser: taken any number of args is not bad in this case
08:54	cemerick	Seems like everything's going to be in flux for an extended period of time from what I've read.
08:54	rhickey	cemerick: I've read the blog posts - there's a long road ahead
08:55	cemerick	that's what I figured you'd say
08:56	cemerick	There's going to be a lot of jdk7-esque forks come next year, I'll wager.
08:56	rhickey	http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2009-December/000023.html
08:59	cemerick	yeah, i saw that
08:59	cemerick	I don't grok it all fully, of course. The process seems right broken though.
09:00	rhickey	it's a difficult thing to retrofit
09:01	rhickey	although, now that Java is behind C#, maybe the borrowing could go the other way
09:02	ordnungswidrig	Anything to whatch out for regarding aquamacs and clojure?
09:02	rhickey	will always be more verbose than in a language built around it
09:02	rhickey	ordnungswidrig: that's my combo, though I don't use Slime
09:04	cemerick	it seems like this is Java's last hurrah w.r.t. attempting big changes. The gridlock seems intense, and I can't imagine it getting any better.
09:05	rhickey	checked exceptions are proven a terrible idea by closures
09:08	ordnungswidrig	rhickey: clojure-mode with elpa works fine? What do you use if not slime? wonder
09:09	rhickey	ordnungswidrig: brute force
09:09	ordnungswidrig	rhickey: never considered this. you mean, just a repl
09:10	rhickey	ordnungswidrig: yes, just clojure-mode + repl
09:10	cemerick	rhickey: how's the intellij clojure stuff these days?
09:11	ordnungswidrig	rhickey: then, you can be sure to receive a donation from me :-) I'll declare it as solatium
09:11	rhickey	cemerick: I just got IDEA 9 installed - haven't done much Clojure editing but debug seems much smoother
09:11	rhickey	ordnungswidrig: thanks :)
09:17	fliebel	Is there any Markdown thing for Clojure? The only thing I found was Javascript ran through Rhino.
09:18	karmazilla	fliebel: there's markdownj for Java
09:19	fliebel	karmazilla: I read it has serious issues, but I might try it…
09:20	chouser	fliebel: we're using markdownj for the book. Hasn't been a problem yet, afaik.
09:20	fliebel	"the book"?
09:21	hamza`	i use markdownj from clojure, the only problem i had is if i put a list just before a code block it messes up.
09:22	chouser	fliebel: the book about Clojure that Fogus and I are writing.
09:22	chouser	markdown as a spec is creaking a bit under our ever-growing requirements, but markdownj as an implementation hasn't cause us any problems I'm aware of.
09:22	fliebel	chouser; ah, that book, cool!
09:23	chouser	yeah, no link for the book yet. hopefully this week...
09:25	fliebel	I think the Showdown+Rhino is a very creative solution… I'm not sure how MarkdownJ compares with that…
09:31	fliebel	hmmm, showdown+rhino looks good!
09:48	devlinsf	(doc future-canceled)
09:48	clojurebot	I don't understand.
09:48	devlinsf	(doc future-cancelled)
09:48	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
09:48	devlinsf	(doc future-cancelled?)
09:48	clojurebot	"([f]); Returns true if future f is cancelled"
09:49	devlinsf	rhichey: cancelled is spelled w/ 1 l
09:49	devlinsf	err... rhickey
09:49	devlinsf	oops
09:50	cypher23	devlinsf, both are correct. 2 l is british, one l is american spelling
09:50	djork	what's up with clojure.contrib.http.agent
09:50	devlinsf	Oh...
09:50	djork	"java.lang.IllegalStateException: bytes already refers to: #'clojure.core/bytes in namespace: user (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)"
09:50	djork	trying to use it
09:50	devlinsf	Firefox is yelling at me. Nevermind
09:50	the-kenny	djork: I think that's fixed in a newer version of clojure-contrib
09:50	esj	djork: it crashes with an existing symbol
09:51	cypher23	devlinsf, you probably have an american-english dictionary :)
09:51	esj	djork: I'm excluding it on require
09:51	esj	(:use compojure
09:51	esj	clojure.contrib.json.write
09:51	esj	[clojure.contrib.http.agent :exclude (bytes)]))
09:51	djork	huh
09:51	djork	seems like it might be better to fix http.agent :)
09:51	devlinsf	cypher23: Well, seeing how I live in the US :)
09:52	esj	I mailed Stuart at the time, I think.
09:52	the-kenny	djork: It's fixed: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/clojure/contrib/http/agent.clj#L66
09:52	djork	hmm
09:53	rhickey	devlinsf: that's one spelling where I agree with the brits
09:53	fliebel	cypher23: I'd love to have java.awt.colour :D
09:53	devlinsf	rhickey: Okay, cool. It'll be fun to watch this issue pop up on the list occasionally :)
09:54	devlinsf	rhickey: Should I create an assembla ticket & immediately close it to document this non-issue?
09:55	djork	the-kenny: I still seem to be getting the error after pulling and rebuilding the jar
09:55	rhickey	devlinsf: probably not, I wonder if people really look for closed issues on things like that
09:55	the-kenny	djork: hm... strange
09:55	djork	it may be my own classpath problem
09:56	devlinsf	rhickey: Okay, no problem
09:57	djork	both clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar are up-to-date from master
10:02	djork	when I change the name of 'bytes' in http.agent, I can use it
10:02	djork	BTW I'm trying to use it in a REPL
10:02	djork	(use 'clojure.contrib.http.agent)
10:03	djork	do I need to use it :as something else?
10:04	fliebel	How would this convert to clojure code? Runtime.getRuntime().exec(Command)
10:05	angerman	(. Runtime/getRuntime exec Command) ?
10:05	chouser	(.exec (Runtime/getRuntime) Command)
10:05	angerman	right. should proably wrap the Runtime/getRuntime.
10:06	fliebel	,(.exec (java.lang.Runtime/getRuntime) "ls")
10:06	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission <<ALL FILES>> execute)
10:06	scgilardi	The fix to contrib allows "require 'clojure.contrib.http.agent" to work, but by using "use" you're trying to bring bytes into the user namespace.
10:06	chouser	angerman: I don't really like using the naked . operator in regular code anymore.
10:07	scgilardi	you can either require it and use its full namespace to qualify its names, require it :as to use an alias to qualify its names, or use it and exclude bytes yourself.
10:07	fliebel	angerman & chouser: gives back #<UNIXProcess java.lang.UNIXProcess@1629ce8c>
10:07	angerman	chouser: guess that's personl preference. though I hardly do interop, so I don't really have an opinion on it.
10:07	chouser	fliebel: congrats! success!
10:07	angerman	fliebel: so? what did you expect?!
10:07	scgilardi	user=> (use '[clojure.contrib.http.agent :exclude [bytes]])
10:07	scgilardi	nil
10:08	fliebel	I expected to see the output of the command… but it's java anyway, so I guess I should fetch some io reader somewhere... :S
10:09	chouser	fliebel: you might be interested in clojure.contrib.shell-out
10:09	fliebel	chouser: might be :D Thanks!
10:11	chouser	angerman: not a huge deal, but http://clojure.org/java_interop mentions the forms at the top of the page are "preferred"
10:13	djork	so I should require http.agent instead of use
10:16	scgilardi	require will work well and is generally preferable to use. require with an :as will make typing more convenient.
10:17	djork	so that's the best way to use a lib that may have namespace conflicts, then?
10:17	djork	I've always been using (use)
10:17	djork	but I guess use is kind of heavy-handed
10:18	chouser	yeah, unadorned 'use' is unfortunately very convenient at first but often causes trouble in the long run.
10:19	devlinsf	Depends on the lib
10:19	chouser	I'm now in the habit of always using 'use', but always with :only and/or :as
10:19	devlinsf	e.g. , I'll use clojure.test in test code
10:19	drewr	the only time I use require is when I'll use most of the publics in an ns
10:19	scgilardi	at the repl, I think it's fine to utilize whatever is convenient. When writing an "ns" form for a lib, it's nice for a (human) reader to be able to trace the origin of every non-core name used. That means either using require, require with :as, or :use with only.
10:20	chouser	scgilardi: yes, good point. naked 'use' at the repl is fine.
10:22	scgilardi	one thing I don't do enough is "enter" the namespace I'm working in at the repl using "in-ns". That makes all of its names available without namespace-qualifying.
10:22	fliebel	what is the preferred way in clojure to handle files? just plain java.io?
10:23	scgilardi	clojure.contrib.duck-streams makes lots of file and stream-related work very easy.
10:23	devlinsf	Hey, question about PersisentStructMap
10:23	scgilardi	clojure.contrib.java-utils has some helpful functions
10:24	aldebrn	liebke, I've made an "fft.clj" in the same vein as stats.clj and core.clj in the incanter/src/main/clojure/incanter directory, is there something else I need to do before clj will pick it up?
10:24	scgilardi	and java.io and java.nio are there to use as well.
10:24	fliebel	scgilardi: thanks
10:24	devlinsf	I have an instance of a struct map and I'm trying to get at the definition
10:25	devlinsf	Similar to how I'd get at a comparator w/ a PeristantSortedMap
10:25	chouser	devlinsf: yeah, you can't get anything useful there.
10:25	devlinsf	Well, looking at the class def it seems I should
10:26	devlinsf	(.def (my-instance)) should do the trick
10:26	devlinsf	Would patching in a simple getDef method do the trick?
10:26	chouser	it's not public
10:27	liebke	aldebrn: use load-file
10:27	chouser	devlinsf: yes, making it public would let you get at it.
10:27	chouser	if you just want a list of the keys, you can do (keys (empty a-struct))
10:46	rhickey	devlinsf: I don't want to enhance structmaps, rather people move to deftype
10:48	devlinsf	rhichey: Okay. I'll review deftype, and let you know if I need to request an enhancement
10:48	devlinsf	Ah
10:48	devlinsf	rhickey
10:49	devlinsf	Hacker news calls you Rick... I call you Hichey.. k & h are confusing!
10:50	devlinsf	Anyone: How do I browse the new branch on github?
10:50	chouser	devlinsf: theres a 'brnaches' dropdown
10:50	devlinsf	Ah, got it
10:51	rhickey	devlinsf: there are definitely differences between defstruct and deftype, but defstruct has problems (AOT, serialization) that deftype solves, plus perf is better, can implement protocols etc
10:53	cypher23	devlinsf, use the power of tab completion? :)
10:53	devlinsf	rhickey: Right now I'm intereted in the map-like abilities of defstruct.
10:53	devlinsf	cypher23: Using a brower right now :(
10:54	cypher23	oh
10:54	devlinsf	rhickey: What did you decide about types supporting keyword lookup?
10:55	rhickey	devlinsf: they do
10:56	devlinsf	Okay. What class implements IDynamicType? Or is that compile time magic?
10:56	rhickey	devlinsf: you shouldn't need to fiddle with IDynamicType
10:57	devlinsf	rhickey: Okay, here's what I'm really looking for. defstruct had the associated PersistentStructMap class. What is the analog of PersistentStructMap for types?
10:59	devlinsf	Oh, wait.... do I need to look in clojure.asm?
10:59	rhickey	devlinsf: you should read through this: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes and try them - they can implement IPersistentMap just by requesting it and not defining the methods
11:00	shantanu	hi all
11:00	chouser	deftypes don't have to share any common superclass except Object
11:00	devlinsf	Ah.
11:00	chouser	shantanu: hi
11:01	shantanu	am wondering if anybody encountered something like thjis: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate org/bitumenframework/jettify/clj__init.class or org/bitumenframework/jettify/clj.clj on classpath
11:01	devlinsf	Hmmm... so I think this answer my underlying question.
11:01	shantanu	this is while compiling clojure code with maven
11:01	chouser	shantanu: looks like something you want isn't in your classpath.
11:01	devlinsf	There probably is NOT the need to use a map operation over a type the same way there is in a hashmap
11:02	devlinsf	Thanks rhickey & chouser
11:03	chouser	devlinsf: if the type doesn't implement IPersistentMap, then probably not.
11:03	shantanu	the same code compiled fine with Ant....seems related to maven-clojure-plugin
11:03	devlinsf	chouser: Even if does, it's a completely different beast
11:03	devlinsf	chouser: That, and this discussion can wait until 1.2 is closer to release
11:04	devlinsf	Then let's finish documenting 1.1 :)
11:05	rhickey	we seem to be stuck on 1.1. In the old days I would just zip up the latest and ship it :)
11:05	rhickey	actually I always did a (painful) doc day
11:05	devlinsf	Ha! the old days
11:05	devlinsf	Shows how fast things have changed
11:06	rhickey	now I'm afraid of all the maven stuff - all the numbers have to align with I don't know what, artifacts etc
11:06	devlinsf	rhickey: Could you help use write the chuncked seqs section?
11:06	devlinsf	*us
11:07	chouser	it's probably unavoidable anyway, but I was hoping to not have to include structs in the book.
11:07	chouser	devlinsf: is the chunked seqs section started somewhere?
11:08	devlinsf	Yeah, follow SS' link
11:08	devlinsf	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/5a5a9aa1352f12f4
11:08	devlinsf	Well, it's outlined
11:10	rhickey	transients section should just refer to http://clojure.org/transients rather than paraphrase, I think
11:11	devlinsf	rhickey. Okay, could you add the last part, where how to properly use them is discussed
11:11	cemerick	rhickey: I'm sure you've seen the writing on the wall that maven is the one true way these days? ;-)
11:12	cemerick	we'll actually be 95% maven by the end of the week, which is a little crazy
11:14	cemerick	"We need something to manage all this incidental complexity!" :-P
11:15	rhickey	you mean, to introduce it?
11:15	cemerick	that was a joke, there, son!
11:16	rhickey	I'm too afraid of Maven to laugh
11:16	cemerick	I was too until about 12 days ago. Used ant for ~10 years.
11:17	devlinsf	cemerick: Wow. I just had netbeans do it for me
11:17	cemerick	devlinsf: builds, you mean?
11:17	chouser	ant scares me too though
11:17	devlinsf	Yeah
11:17	chouser	we use cmake at work.
11:17	chouser	cmake scares me
11:18	cemerick	IDEs beg for you to tie your build to a local environment. That's why I went with NB years ago, it didn't have its own build circus.
11:18	rhickey	devlinsf: I'm fearful of overdoing it as far as release notes etc. There are docs on the functions. Some things are best not said twice. But transients and chunks are topics. See prior release notes - they were just gussied up commit logs. Special notes only to highlight new features, or document breakage/deprecation. I think we need to KISS. Right now, not knowing what maven will need is the dark area for me
11:18	cemerick	chouser: you prefer to use butterflies?
11:18	cemerick	;-)
11:19	chouser	cemerick: make. I like make.
11:19	rhickey	cemerick: clojure used to build with a javac one-liner
11:19	chouser	well, gnumake
11:19	cemerick	My only sustained exposure to make is via autoconf. The one time I had to actually screw with a makefile was not pleasant. At that point, I longed for XML.
11:20	chouser	the chunk functions don't seem to have docstrings
11:22	chouser	rhickey: I assume you'd take a ticket/patch for chunk fn docstrings?
11:22	hugod	is using extend the expected way to define a protocol method implementation on a deftype that calls the deftype's own factory function?
11:33	Kjellski	When will clojure turn 2.0? I mean, have you a better guess then "When it´s done" ?
11:34	danm_	does anyone even know what 2.0 means for clojure yet? why would the timeline for 2.0 be important to you right now?
11:34	shantanu	chouser: it seems i found out why the maven build was breaking -- whenever the namespace contains an underscore, it barfs
11:35	Kjellski	danm_ : no not really... I´m just interested... ^^
11:35	shantanu	chouser: i faced similar issue when compiling with Ant earlier
11:35	danm_	Kjellski: fair enough, I was just sort of confused
11:35	chouser	shantanu: really? hm.
11:36	shantanu	chouser: i just removed the underscore from the namespace -- it now compiles fine
11:36	bjorkintosh	what happens if people don't start supporting clojure's daddy?
11:36	bjorkintosh	does it mean it dies and never turns 2.0?
11:37	shantanu	chouser: i suspect this may have to do with Clojure's compile module (the way it resolves namespaces)
11:39	Chousuke	bjorkintosh: probably development just won't be as rapid as it could be.
11:40	bjorkintosh	ah that's sad.
11:40	bjorkintosh	it seems the language has generated a lot of excitement and it's a shame the creator of it hasn't been banished to an ivory tower :P
11:40	bjorkintosh	okay okay that was mean.
11:41	bjorkintosh	lisp and ivory towers seem to go together though.
11:41	chouser	Clojure is not that kind of lisp. :-)
11:41	Chousuke	I suppose Rich just doesn't feel like spending 15 years slowly building up momentum.
11:41	danm_	seems fair
11:44	cemerick	shantanu: what version of clojure-maven-plugin are you using?
11:45	shantanu	chouser: it is <groupId>com.theoryinpractise</groupId> <artifactId>clojure-maven-plugin</artifactId> <version>1.0</version>
11:45	shantanu	chouser: oops! bad copy-paste
11:46	shantanu	cemerick: another oops! hi cemerick
11:47	cemerick	well, clojure-maven-plugin is up to 1.1 in releases, so that's a good first thing to try
11:47	cemerick	Further, the 1.2 snapshots (not sure if they're around anywhere, I just have them deployed internally) have a lot of good improvements.
11:48	shantanu	cemerick: i just decided to learn Maven today, and gave this plugin a try :-) -- i will try 1.1 out
11:48	cemerick	it's worked well for me :-)
11:48	shantanu	and 1.2 as well
11:49	cemerick	(and I have plenty of libs with dashes in the ns, FWIW)
11:49	shantanu	dashes seem to cause problems when compiling with Ant, but underscores were fine with Ant
11:50	shantanu	so i fell back to underscores
11:50	shantanu	seems i should experiment a bit more
11:51	rhickey	chouser: I'm not sure I want people using chunk fns yet, maybe label experimental
11:51	rhickey	ditto transients - experimental (more on this in a sec)
11:52	rhickey	devlinsf: sorry, I got called away - anyway, your outline is good, but fn docs need to make it into fns and concept docs onto the clojure.org site - I don't want people searching for release notes for docs
11:54	devlinsf	rhickey: Okay, makes sense
11:54	devlinsf	rhickey: should there be a PSA in the mailing list when you release 1.1, though?
11:55	rhickey	devlinsf: sure
11:56	ericthorsen	I want to define a symbol called 'Class in a namespace. I put (:refer-clojure :exclude (Class)) in the ns decl and call (ns-unmap ns 'Class). Loads dynamically but won't AOT. Keep getting "Class already refers to: class java.lang.Class in namespace:"
11:56	ericthorsen	Is this possible to do?
11:56	rhickey	I'd also like to try release candidates this time around, so we know the zip and naming is all ok for downstream things
11:57	rhickey	ericthorsen: dunno
11:57	ericthorsen	rhickey: Doh!
11:57	rhickey	sounds scary remapping Class
11:58	Chousuke	at least making source tarballs is relatively easy. github does them for you :P
11:58	devlinsf	rhickey: Sounds cool. What else exactly needs to happen, besides fleshing out the docs? Is there a concrete to do list before RC1?
11:58	ericthorsen	rhickey: I know...I could "want something else" but it will make what I'm doing not uniform
11:58	shantanu	cemerick: the underscores still don't cut it with the 1.1 plugin, but it works with dashes
11:59	Chousuke	hm, right, docs.
11:59	devlinsf	ericthorsen: Steal a trick from Ruby. name your fn klass
11:59	cemerick	shantanu: wait, namespaces with underscores fail, but ns' with dashes are OK?
11:59	Chousuke	IIRC I saw some reference in clojure.test docstrings to subversion and google code. Should probably fix that.
11:59	shantanu	yes
12:00	cemerick	huh. Well, I can't say I've ever made an ns with an underscore in it.
12:00	rhickey	devlinsf: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_frm/thread/be3f0a7c26ee2fd6
12:00	shantanu	i admit that's unusual...i did so because i ran into issues with Ant with dash-in-filenames
12:01	devlinsf	rhickey: Yeah, I remember that. Do these items have human names attached to them?
12:01	shantanu	i guess avoiding dashes and underscores is a good idea
12:02	rhickey	devlinsf: like code names? :)
12:02	devlinsf	Lol
12:03	devlinsf	That'd be fun. I was think of a much mor boring version, though
12:03	cemerick	dashes are right and proper, IMO. An ns with an underscore is a tad ugly, I'd say. shrug
12:03	aldebrn	To make sure I'm remembering correctly: one should try to use deftype instead of structmaps as of now
12:03	devlinsf	Like "Who is responsible for this"?
12:03	subhadeep	clojure rocks
12:03	rhickey	don't use underscores in ns names
12:04	replaca	Q (cause I'm too lazy to read right now): is = on a persistent data structure equivalent to lisp eq or lisp equal? (Seems like eq would be just as effective for persistent structures and a whole lot faster, but I just want to check my logic before I get too deep.)
12:04	rhickey	devlinsf: stuartsierra was supposed to be marshaling the process
12:04	devlinsf	Ah
12:05	devlinsf	rhickey: What about "A Plan for release candidates"? SS or you?
12:06	rhickey	replaca: there's no guarantee that 2 = data structures have a shared genesis and thus a shared root - can't be eq
12:06	rhickey	devlinsf: I've gotta run right now - my preference is for an absolute minimum of ceremony and fuss
12:06	devlinsf	k
12:06	devlinsf	tttyl
12:07	replaca	rhickey: ahh, yes I thought there was a hole in my thinking! I was thinking the other way around. Thanks.
12:09	aldebrn	To make sure I'm remembering correctly: one should try to use deftype instead of structmaps as of now
12:10	rhickey	very nice response so far: http://clojure.org/funders
12:10	fliebel	For those who suggested using markdownj: I got this issue as well: http://code.google.com/p/markdownj/issues/detail?id=6 and in my tests showdown+rhino runs nearly as fast.
12:11	fliebel	rhickey: maybe you should put up a donation button, or am I overlooking it?
12:12	cypher23	fliebel, right on the front page? http://clojure.org/
12:12	cemerick	fliebel: big honkin' image in the middle of clojure.org ;-)
12:13	fliebel	ok, mi fault, I was just looking on the funders page… my mind ignores buttons and adds for the rest of the time ;)
12:14	replaca	rhickey: Great to hear! I'll be there too, next time I'm sitting in front of my computer at home. Though I think Clojure actually costs me money :-)
12:14	Chousuke	rhickey: where do you think :pre and :post should be documented? defn?
12:15	drewr	rhickey: you might want to list the people that donated through sourceforge back in the day
12:15	drewr	I'll definitely be donating again though
12:23	qed	http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~mr/lambda/straw-man/
12:26	qed	freenode has been absolutely unbearable the last couple of days
12:30	bjorkintosh	hide join/part messages :)
12:30	bjorkintosh	is it that freenode is b0rked or buggy?
12:30	nuba	and netsplits
12:30	bjorkintosh	can't the netsplits be done cleanly?
12:31	nuba	from [Global Notice] >we're still experiencing heavy ddos directed at a variety of locations where we have infrastructure hosted.
12:31	bjorkintosh	oh.
12:31	bjorkintosh	that's not nice.
12:32	nuba	nope
12:32	nuba	set yourself to +w if you want to receive these notices
12:32	nuba	/mode bjorkintosh +w
12:34	fliebel	Who made clojurebot?
12:36	chouser	clojurebot: who's your daddy?
12:36	clojurebot	who is x
12:36	chouser	fliebel: hiredman
12:37	fliebel	chouser: It's written in Clojure I guess? :D
12:37	chouser	fliebel: I believe so, yes. :-)
12:37	chouser	clojurebot: where are you?
12:37	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
12:39	fliebel	It would be cool if it had some voicemail functionality…
12:41	qed	why voicemail?
12:41	qed	are you calling irc channels or something?
12:42	qed	"hello, yes, this is fliebel, im looking to speak with chris houser"
12:42	Chousuke	hm.
12:42	fliebel	I mean that you can leave a message for someone who's not online
12:42	qed	"ahhh, he's away from his desk...very well then"
12:42	qed	fliebel: ahh :)
12:42	Chousuke	it might be useful to have "dummy vars" to document some features of Clojure that apply to multiple functions.
12:43	qed	Chousuke: clojurebot !
12:43	qed	oops
12:43	qed	clojurebot: !
12:43	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
12:44	qed	heh heh, whatever happened to Madison Square Clabango
12:46	qed	Chousuke: that makes sense to me
12:48	qed	clojurebot: outback steakhouse
12:48	clojurebot	I want to go to there
12:59	qed	clojurebot: whose job isthat
12:59	clojurebot	that's romanb's job
12:59	polypus	clojurebot: who are you?
13:00	clojurebot	You will not become skynet
13:00	the-kenny	clojurebot: skynet?
13:00	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
13:00	the-kenny	clojurebot: skynet
13:00	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:00	the-kenny	Hm... I thought I've told him he will become skynet
13:00	polypus	clojurebot: wanna come back to my pad for a drink?
13:00	clojurebot	for is not used enough
13:01	qed	heh
13:01	qed	clojurebot: e4
13:01	clojurebot	I resign
13:01	polypus	lol
13:02	qed	clojurebot: curious
13:02	clojurebot	/nick other-clojure-bot
13:02	polypus	maybe he (she?) could do better: http://psycochess.sourceforge.net/
13:03	qed	clojurebot: sex?
13:03	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:04	polypus	greek sex?
13:04	qed	kinky
13:06	qed	clojurebot: historical ninja robots
13:06	clojurebot	historical ninja robots are so 1999...
13:06	qed	clojurebot: futuristic ninja robots
13:06	clojurebot	sooo much better than any of the historical ninja robots
13:06	qed	agreed
13:07	StartsWithK	3000 users on ml :)
13:07	qed	clojurebot: twitteronia
13:07	clojurebot	twitteronia is where shaq lives
13:10	bagucode	clojurebot: seen ztellman?
13:10	clojurebot	no, I have not seen ztellman
13:10	bagucode	clojurebot: thank you
13:10	clojurebot	You will not become skynet
13:10	qed	heh
13:11	qed	he's got an attitude today
13:11	bagucode	That's rude
13:12	cp2_	hrm, im surprised this iphone didnt burn through my desk yet
13:12	cp2_	Benchmarking: FreeBSD MD5 [32/32 X2]... DONE
13:12	cp2_	Raw: 434 c/s real, 444 c/s virtual
13:12	cp2_	er
13:12	cp2_	http://pastie.org/private/rjhods0x4h9ocwr2mazq1g
13:12	the-kenny	clojurebot: I will become skynet
13:12	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:12	the-kenny	:(
13:13	qed	clojurebot: the-kenny is <reply>I heard he's becoming skynet.
13:13	clojurebot	c'est bon!
13:13	qed	clojurebot: the-kenny
13:13	clojurebot	I heard he's becoming skynet.
13:13	the-kenny	qed: No, I wanted to bring him to say he will become skynet
13:13	the-kenny	Not me ;)
13:13	qed	oh, hehe
13:13	the-kenny	qed: I told him "You will become skynet" and he got it wrong
13:13	qed	clojurebot: forget the-kenny
13:13	clojurebot	I forgot the-kenny
13:15	qed	i suppose i should quit playing with the bot now...
13:16	qed	clojurebot: leiningen is <reply>http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
13:16	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
13:16	KirinDave	So I was reading http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/11/23/clojure-circuit-breaker/
13:16	KirinDave	Cool code
13:17	KirinDave	But is deftype going to become part of idiomatic clojure?
13:17	KirinDave	I thought the point of it was to allow folks to plumb clojure to java with maximum performance
13:17	devlinsf	kirindave: Yes, it is slated for 1.2
13:17	KirinDave	devlinsf: I mean, culturally.
13:17	KirinDave	I worry that everyone will use it in preference to what exists now because it's more familiar to java programmers.
13:18	KirinDave	"I know this, this is an Object System"
13:18	KirinDave	Are there concerns about that?
13:18	qed	i wont use it because i don't like Java
13:18	qed	;)
13:18	Raynes	1.2? Not 1.1 :(.
13:18	Chousuke	deftype and protocols are not java things.
13:18	Chousuke	they're Clojure things.
13:18	KirinDave1	yes, I know.
13:18	Chousuke	They're not really object-oriented either.
13:19	Raynes	I wish it would appear sooner. Feels kind of silly using structs when something that will replace them is right around the corner.
13:19	KirinDave1	They're more similar than pure functional.
13:19	hiredman	protocols don't create an is-a relationship
13:19	KirinDave1	Chousuke: See what Raynes just said?
13:19	Chousuke	objects couple methods with data, which neither deftype nor protocols do.
13:19	KirinDave1	deftype, now replacing structs.
13:19	hiredman	KirinDave1: yes
13:20	KirinDave1	Is that the intent of deftype tho?
13:20	hiredman	KirinDave1: in idiomatic clojure deftypes will be like better structs
13:20	hiredman	just holders for data
13:20	Chousuke	structmaps never were anything besides a size-optimised map
13:20	Chousuke	maps
13:20	hiredman	with a type
13:21	Raynes	And then we have reify. Isn't that going to replace proxy or something?
13:21	Chousuke	most of it.
13:21	polypus	http://stuartsierra.com/2009/12/14/objects-are-not-adts
13:21	hiredman	like datatypes in haskell or erlang
13:21	Chousuke	reify is a mostly java interop thing though I think
13:22	Raynes	I would just use the new branch of Clojure, but it still seems to break swank for me for some reason. Phil can't reproduce it.
13:22	polypus	http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~wcook/Drafts/2009/essay.pdf
13:23	Chousuke	I suppose deftype feels like object-orientation because it creates things that would be objects in Java and most OOP languages :/
13:23	KirinDave	It just seems like what's going to happen is that idiomatic clojure is going to go from using a set of generic types to using a set of predeclared types.
13:23	chouser	structmaps don't really have a type
13:23	KirinDave	While I understand that sometimes that makes sense.
13:24	KirinDave	In general, it's unnecessary.
13:24	KirinDave	For example, in that circuit breaker example, it didn't seem necessary.
13:25	KirinDave	I'm as big a fan of Wittgenstein's ladder as the next guy, but I am concerned about how readable most clojure code will be if everyone thinks they need a ton of types for every program.
13:25	Chousuke	you'll still be using maps and vectors, don't worry.
13:26	KirinDave	I know _I_ will.
13:26	KirinDave	And 90% of the time that'll make sense
13:26	Chousuke	Well, at first everyone will be excited about the new playthings.
13:26	KirinDave	But I'd hate to start seeing other clojure code senselessly use deftype.
13:26	Chousuke	but I'm sure it'll settle down eventually.
13:26	chouser	most application-level deftypes will implement IPersistentMap
13:26	cemerick	ah, things are coming together now http://twitter.com/jvanzyl/statuses/6703401181
13:28	KirinDave	Well, I admit to some trepidation.
13:28	KirinDave	After years of trying to get java developers to look at lisp and failing.
13:29	KirinDave	I suspect, so crassly, that if you give people a familiar construct they'll prefer it. :)
13:32	Chousuke	there are over 100 contributors already it seems.
13:39	dysinger	cemerick: we setup invoiced support with rich yesterday - did you beat me to it ?
13:39	dysinger	;)
13:40	cemerick	dysinger: Yeah, I think we beat you, but ours isn't a monthly commitment -- we don't have all that shiny VC money ;-)
13:40	dysinger	I qualified my tweet with "first _invoiced_ monthly" just in case :P
13:40	cemerick	yeah, I saw that :-)
13:40	drewr	ugh, swank-clojure-find-package is the bane of my existence
13:41	cemerick	I'm hoping to make a monthly contribution, essentially backing into a regular royalty based on clojure-based app sales
13:41	polypus	ugh
13:46	dysinger	holy netsplit x2
13:47	lghtng_away_away	it's DDOS
13:47	lghtng	freenode is under assault atm
13:47	hiredman	dysinger: are you guys still hiring?
13:48	dysinger	hiredman: on going yes
13:49	lghtng	maybe flks didnt hear the 'pikes to the boards' calls a few days back...
13:50	hiredman	dysinger: I sent my resume into the jobs@ address a week or two ago, and had't heard back, so I was just kind of curious
13:50	lghtng	i'd be checking me some updates on critical servers that get referenced alot in freenode traffic, there may be some flanking and spillover onto ircops and allies
13:51	dysinger	hiredman: ok thanks for the reminder
13:51	jasapp	dysinger: likewise
13:51	dysinger	hiredman: I'll go check it out - I may have missed it.
13:51	hiredman	jasapp: he'll snap a pool cue in half and make us fight for it
13:52	dysinger	jasapp: hiredman - real names ?
13:52	jasapp	I didn't write clojurebot, so I'm sure it won't be much of a fight :-)
13:52	dysinger	(so I can match up the emails)
13:52	hiredman	Kevin Downey
13:52	jasapp	Jeff Sapp
13:52	dysinger	ok - I'll setup calls with you today
13:53	hiredman	exciting
13:54	cemerick	heh, sonian is going to swallow the clojure jobs market whole ;-)
13:55	hiredman	pull a google
13:56	drewr	I'm sure dysinger wouldn't mind
13:56	jasapp	I always wondered about when google had to let go of their hiring curve philosophy
13:56	cemerick	We'll just have to grow a new batch when we're ready :-)
13:56	dysinger	We don't have endless slots but there is work
13:57	dysinger	:) I am just happy there is jobs
13:57	dysinger	These are just the beginning
13:57	cemerick	absolutely, it helps everyone
13:57	cemerick	I was a little surprised by Sonatype. They weren't on my radar at all.
13:58	dysinger	same here
13:58	dysinger	They do maven right ?
13:58	cemerick	right
13:58	dysinger	Nexus server & consulting
13:58	cemerick	I think @talios has done work there before, and he's behind clojure-maven-plugin, so I guess the conversations came easily enough.
14:00	devlinsf	cemerick, dysinger: where is this mythical clojure job market?
14:00	dysinger	devlinsf: @ home
14:00	devlinsf	Ah
14:00	cemerick	devlinsf: dysinger has ~415 devs, we've got two ;-)
14:00	devlinsf	:)
14:00	dysinger	hehehe
14:00	dysinger	We only have 5
14:01	cemerick	yeah, but that's not nearly as wry
14:01	jasapp	are both of you at snowtide?
14:01	jasapp	cemerick, and devlinsf?
14:01	cemerick	no, dysinger is with Sonian
14:01	devlinsf	Ha, no I'm somewhere else
14:02	jasapp	ahh, ok
14:02	bagucode	dnolen: ping
14:02	dnolen	bagucode: hola
14:03	dnolen	bagucode: pong, rather
14:03	bagucode	dnolen: I just updated the default path mappings for :native-path in my leiningen fork. Turns out the "send a function from project.clj that gives back a path" was kinda tricky since everything in defproject is quoted.
14:04	dnolen	bagucode: yeah, I thought about it some more, and I think settling for a uniform lein native path standard is probably the best approach. Sorry haven't had a chance to follow up on the lein ML thread.
14:04	bagucode	But I threw in a fn? check anyway in eval-in-project so if someone manages to pass it a function it will work ;)
14:06	dnolen	bagucode: thx for working this stuff out, it's makes working with Penumbra so much simpler. So do you think supporting LWJGL will be a big project? Or mostly a swap?
14:07	bagucode	dnolen: Actually, ztellman contacted me to tell me that he was planning on switching to lwjgl! So I'm going to leave that to him obviously :)
14:08	bagucode	dnolen: This is a direct quote "Just FYI, since I noticed the comment in your project.clj file. I plan to begin work on it this weekend."
14:08	dnolen	bagucode: wow, cool.
14:22	cemerick	is DoSing freenode just an exercise in griefing, or is there a real objective?
14:25	dnolen	bagucode: i was thinking about taking a stab it, but if you are going to anyway, I'll just follow your progress ;)
14:25	technomancy	cemerick: sounds like it's targeting a host that's co-located with freenode servers
14:26	cemerick	oh, I see
14:26	mee_	cemerick: I think it's usually just griefing, or perhaps it's the staging environment for botnet developers
14:26	mee_	taking down freenode is one of the functional tests in their suite
14:26	mee_	;)
14:28	bagucode	dnolen: Alright, I'll just keep at it then. But I don't have much time (between actual work and some stupid contest I agreed to enter). But I'll tell you if I don't think I'll finish it so you can do something about it yourself if that is the case.
14:29	dnolen	bagucode: actually I'm totally up for collaboration, sorry, didn't know if you want to figure it out yourself.
14:29	dnolen	bagucode: I will definitely help.
14:30	bagucode	dnolen: I just want it to work :) I think we have the same goal here so I'll gladly take help
14:30	dnolen	bagucode: fetching your latest now ;)
14:36	alexyk	what's the idiomatic ways to do this: (merge-with (fn [vr v] (conj (if (seq? vr) vr [vr]) v)) {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 0.5 :c 4})
14:36	alexyk	,(merge-with (fn [vr v] (conj (if (seq? vr) vr [vr]) v)) {:a 1 :b 2} {:a 0.5 :c 4})
14:36	clojurebot	{:c 4, :a [1 0.5], :b 2}
14:37	chouser	alexyk: the first map may have seqs as values, but the second may not?
14:38	polypus	it'd be nice if you could go:
14:40	polypus	(defmulti name fun (:thing-to-match [args] ...))
14:40	polypus	i mean (defmulti name fun (:thing-to-match [args] ...) ...)
14:40	devlinsf	alexy: use group-by
14:40	devlinsf	alexyk: (Sorry) Check clojure.contrib.seq-utils
14:40	devlinsf	Something like (group-by key a-coll-of-maps)
14:40	polypus	w/o always having to rewrite the method names and defmethod
14:41	chouser	polypus: should be an easy enough macro to write. :-)
14:42	devlinsf	alexyk: Hmm... maybe...
14:43	devlinsf	alexyk: no, I like your version
14:44	devlinsf	I can't get group-by to work w/o a second mapping operation
14:44	mee_	except re: chouser's comment, i think 'v' should be replaced with an if to handle v being a seq-providing-thing
14:44	devlinsf	Well... maybe a pivot....
14:45	devlinsf	Yeah
14:45	devlinsf	Check this out:
14:45	devlinsf	My Pivot: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/9a518c853bfbba8b#
14:46	devlinsf	Or Alex Osborne's Map reduce by
14:46	mee_	oh, conj handles that, nm
14:46	devlinsf	Alexyk: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/7a17676521019237
14:47	devlinsf	Alexyk: Yeah, use alex's version
14:48	polypus	chouser: yep, just thought it'd be good in core
14:48	polypus	irc = fail
14:51	stuartsierra	I feel like there was not a consensus on whether or not we were doing anything with contrib in conjunction with 1.1.
14:51	mefesto	hey everyone. is there some procedure i need to go through in order to be able to post to the clojure google group? I'm already registered as a member but my replies don't seem to go through.
14:51	stuartsierra	mefesto: new members are moderated
14:52	devlinsf	stuartsierra: I think we're supposed to bundle contrib as-is
14:52	devlinsf	stuartsierra: At least something is frozen
14:52	mefesto	stuartsierra: ok, thanks.
14:52	stuartsierra	devlinsf; Bundle, as in, put contrib in clojure.jar?
14:52	stuartsierra	That would mean big changes to the build/packaging process.
14:52	rhickey	stuartsierra: I think it got muddled between making a branch of contrib, bringing parts of contrib into core, and the original question (for me at least), bundling some parts of contrib in the release zip
14:53	stuartsierra	rhickey: Right. So what do you want to do?
14:53	stuartsierra	My inclination is to get Clojure 1.1 out the door, then deal with contrib.
14:57	devlinsf	Would freezing contrib "as-is", and calling contrib 1.1 be good enough?
14:57	devlinsf	2 different jars
14:58	mattrepl	anyone been working on a queue protocol/interface for passing messages between threads and/or VMs?
14:58	stuartsierra	devlinsf: I'm not thrilled by that prospect, but it would help out with the dependency issues, at least.
14:58	chouser	Java comes with queues for passing between threads. BlockingQueues
14:59	chouser	mattrepl: agents have queues inside, too.
14:59	devlinsf	stuartsierra: That's my main concern. At least there would be a common jar to build applications against
15:00	stuartsierra	devlinsf; Yeah, probably the best we can achieve before the end of '09.
15:00	mattrepl	chouser: you mean in the sense that there's a pool of agents?
15:00	devlinsf	stuartsierra: I'd be very happy with that.
15:00	devlinsf	It's above my pay grade, though :)
15:00	chouser	agents queue up to use threads from the pool (when using 'send' not 'send-off'), but also actions queue up to be serviced by the agent they were sent to.
15:01	mattrepl	chouser: cool, didn't realize the latter
15:01	stuartsierra	devlinsf: It's above everyone's pay grade; we're hackers, not release managers. ;)
15:02	devlinsf	stuartsierra: Too true.
15:02	technomancy	it's unfortunate that it's impossible to build a project that uses both Clojure 1.0 and contrib using automated dependency mechanisms
15:02	chouser	well, except stuartsierra's been deputized. He's a release manager now.
15:02	technomancy	hopefully 1.1 can avoid that fate
15:02	stuartsierra	Oh, yeah. :\|
15:02	devlinsf	technomancy: Would this plan help lien?
15:03	technomancy	devlinsf: it would help everyone using stable releases who doesn't want to build and copy their jars around by hand.
15:03	stuartsierra	We could even back-release "contrib 1.0", but I'll put that off 'till january.
15:03	technomancy	leiningen, clojure-maven-plugin, and ivy alike.
15:04	devlinsf	stuartsierra: Awesome. how did you feel about my proposal here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/c0b9b7857f19001c
15:05	devlinsf	stuartsierra: It's basically what we're saying
15:05	stuartsierra	devlinsf: need to test maven/ant/build stuff first, and finish the changes doc, but otherwise yes
15:06	devlinsf	Okay
15:06	devlinsf	stuartsierra: Rich was talking about removing the transients section, and linking to the clojure page directly
15:07	stuartsierra	devlinsf: I wondered about that myself.
15:07	devlinsf	stuartsierra; Hmmmm... at the very minimum we should provide a link
15:10	devlinsf	Link inserted
15:12	devlinsf	stuartsierra, rhickey: After thinking a bit, I like the idea of leaving the transients section in. Have more than one explanation in place would help people pick up the concept. Hearing it explained differently will help different people.
15:14	stuartsierra	"mvn install" doesn't work in current Clojure master; even after "ant"
15:17	cemerick	yeah, the poms are just wrong
15:18	stuartsierra	I'm tempted to rewrite as a Maven-based build, calling out to Ant for scripting.
15:19	ericthorsen	cemerick: Are you referring to the default source root in the pom files (or lack thereof)
15:20	albino	why not call out to clojure :)
15:20	cemerick	stuartsierra: I floated that last week, rhickey didn't sound receptive
15:20	stuartsierra	albino: because we're building Clojure!
15:20	cemerick	ericthorsen: to start, yes
15:20	stuartsierra	cemerick: ok, I can probably hack the POM so it works with the ant build
15:21	alexyk	hey guys, I know it's almost cast in stone, but contrib is really stdlib
15:21	albino	stuartsierra: so we can't call out to the previous version of clojure while building the newer version?
15:21	cemerick	stuartsierra: I think 1.2 is a reasonable goal for lobbying for a maven-driven build
15:21	alexyk	perhaps a similar mechanism can be deployed as for clojure-lang to rename it
15:21	alexyk	with an alias to c.c. until deprecated
15:21	stuartsierra	albino: theoretically we could, but the we'd need to include the old version in the build
15:21	cemerick	parts of contrib are a stdlib. Other parts, not so much.
15:22	albino	stuartsierra: okay, I'll stop harping, but I'd rather install a previous version of clojure over ant and maven :)
15:22	ericthorsen	cemerick: I was going to submit a patch until I saw that having more than one source root for a maven project was not supported out of the box (I know little about MAven)
15:22	alexyk	cemerick: exactly. So perhaps a smaller, fixed stdlib can be carved out of contrib.
15:22	stuartsierra	albino: you'll probably only need ant
15:22	cemerick	ericthorsen: multiple source roots aren't a problem, that's a simple fix
15:22	devlinsf	alexyk: See here:
15:22	stuartsierra	alexyk: that's a goal in my mind for 1.2
15:23	cemerick	getting the compilation and install/deployment of the various artifacts will take a little bit of work
15:23	devlinsf	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/e5083948af33939f#
15:23	cemerick	devlinsf: thank you
15:24	devlinsf	me 4....
15:24	cemerick	I think that's a more productive path than promoting libs
15:24	devlinsf	Just don't know how to set status in irc...
15:24	stuartsierra	I've got a whole set of standard libs laid out in my head.
15:24	stuartsierra	devlinsf: type /me then your status
15:24	alexyk	ah ok, link covers it
15:24	devlinsf	stuartsierra: Thanks
15:24	stuartsierra	devlinsf: welcome
15:25	stuartsierra	But first, 1.1 or bust!
15:25	devlinsf	Yes, 1.1
15:25	devlinsf	stuartseirra: Want to talk to you about str-utils for 1.2... but it can wait
15:26	cemerick	I'd actually rather see a real stdlib discussion hold off until 1.3 or whatever -- get the types, protocols, reify under our belt
15:26	chouser	also, parts of clojure.jar are stdlib
15:26	chouser	clojure.xml, clojure.zip
15:26	devlinsf	clojure.test
15:27	stuartsierra	rhickey: I'm going to make a ticket for Maven-related stuff in 1.1, ok?
15:29	stuartsierra	cemerick: good point re types/protocols/reify
15:29	stuartsierra	In the interim, numbered contrib releases might help some people out.
15:30	cemerick	If a transition to maven can be made, then that's almost not necessary.
15:30	stuartsierra	cemerick: almost
15:30	cemerick	...or, so easy to do as to make it a non issue :-)
15:30	stuartsierra	Right.
15:30	Chousuke	hmm
15:31	stuartsierra	Here's an easy fix for a Java person: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/218-Deprecate-old-launch-Classes
15:31	alexyk	stuartsierra: will maven releases cover cases for different branches? in Scala, it's solved by suffixing the maven artifactId with a version, e.g. scala-json-2.7.7 vs scala-json-2.8-SNAPSHOT. Then the version field is a true version. This is the consensus for Maven-centric tools after a lot of trying.
15:31	Chousuke	I wrote some documentation for function pre- and postconditions but I still don't like that it all is in the fn docstrings
15:32	alexyk	E.g. I'd like to try protocols in an easy to build way, having clojure-new, contrib-new all properly stuffed into maven
15:32	stuartsierra	alexyk: We're close to that with build.clojure.org
15:32	Chousuke	ideally you should be able to do something like (doc preconditions) and (doc postconditions) :/
15:33	stuartsierra	Chousuke: could you copy that into the Changes doc?
15:33	Chousuke	stuartsierra: Sure.
15:33	stuartsierra	Chousuke: thanks
15:33	alexyk	stuartsierra: how close? :) is the convention the same? I've seen clojars kinda tossig namespaces, suggesting same naming for groupId and artifactId. Doesn't help with language branches at all.
15:34	alexyk	i.e., where does the "new" branch suffix go?
15:34	alexyk	btw "new" is quite a terrible branch name
15:34	stuartsierra	alexyk: I don't have answers for you, I'm afraid.
15:35	alexyk	stuartsierra: you're the first person not spitting nails about maven but rather wanting something to do with it, hence my asking :)
15:36	stuartsierra	alexyk: I will continue to push for regular Maven-based releases, but there's a lot of organizing to do.
15:36	alexyk	stuartsierra: good
15:37	hiredman	alexyk: new refers to new new, the main feature the branch was originally for work on
15:38	alexyk	hiredman: right, but in maven, it better be called clojure-proto or something meaningful. There's also something new, and nothing's new under the Sun.
15:39	alexyk	always new, I mean
15:39	stuartsierra	ok, I'm off for a bit, I'll try to tackle the 1.1 POM this evening
15:40	hiredman	alexyk: the feature that the new branch was originally made to work was called "new"
15:40	alexyk	hiredman: ah, ok. Well it takes 3 iterations to penetrate a head. :)
15:41	alexyk	It's like a person called Andwhatsyourname.
15:42	alexyk	"-- My name is John. -- Andwhatsyourname! -- John, and yours? Andwhatsyourname! ..."
15:48	devlinsf	alexyk Who's on first?
15:48	alexyk	devlinsf: I don't get baseball, so that makes no sense to me :)
15:49	devlinsf	gasp!
15:49	devlinsf	It's a classic!
15:50	alexyk	devlinsf: I know, still makes no sense! :)
15:54	lghtng	baseball is a test of coolness under pressure
15:55	lghtng	unlike continuous action sports that arent quite as dependent on actual 'zero to 60' quickness
16:01	KirinDave	oh man
16:01	alexyk	lghtng: baseball is middle-aged men in tight pants leisurely walking around for 8 hours
16:01	KirinDave	This is not a good conversation to have in #clojure.
16:01	devlinsf	So it doesn't belong in this ball park?
16:02	alexyk	ok, back to basics. How do I merge a seq of tiny maplets, ({:a 1} {:b 2}) into one huge map, {:a 1 :b 2} most concisely & fast? My seq is long.
16:02	arohner	,(doc merge)
16:02	clojurebot	"([& maps]); Returns a map that consists of the rest of the maps conj-ed onto the first. If a key occurs in more than one map, the mapping from the latter (left-to-right) will be the mapping in the result."
16:03	alexyk	,(merge ({:a 1} {:b 2}))
16:03	clojurebot	nil
16:03	KirinDave	And also
16:03	chouser	,(apply merge ({:a 1} {:b 2}))
16:03	clojurebot	nil
16:03	KirinDave	,(doc merge-with)
16:03	clojurebot	"([f & maps]); Returns a map that consists of the rest of the maps conj-ed onto the first. If a key occurs in more than one map, the mapping(s) from the latter (left-to-right) will be combined with the mapping in the result by calling (f val-in-result val-in-latter)."
16:03	chouser	,(apply merge [{:a 1} {:b 2}])
16:03	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
16:03	alexyk	I don't need -with, I'm guaranteed to have distinct keys.
16:04	alexyk	,(merge {:a 1} {:b 2})
16:04	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
16:04	KirinDave	Lol
16:04	alexyk	works for literals, not for enclosing seq
16:04	danm_	,(reduce merge '({:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3}))
16:04	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2, :a 1}
16:05	danm_	yay?
16:06	the-kenny	,(apply merge '({:a 1} {:b 2} {:c 3}))
16:06	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2, :a 1}
16:06	alexyk	danm_: leaves me with only the last element of real data, which I test with (take 5 bigseq)...
16:07	danm_	hmm, worked for clojurebot though
16:08	hiredman	alexyk: are you sure you are using it correctly?
16:09	alexyk	hiredman: no :)
16:09	hiredman	…
16:10	alexyk	wtf: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/157258/ ?
16:10	alexyk	doh
16:10	alexyk	I need to invert keys...
16:10	hiredman	…
16:11	djork	reduce + merge?
16:11	djork	are you positive?
16:11	hiredman	djork: his keys are not unique
16:11	devlinsf	alexyk: clojure.set
16:11	alexyk	djork: works, my data was inverted
16:11	alexyk	I fetch from Mongo and just need to insert into the map differently
16:12	alexyk	btw that was justinbieber dominating twitter pagerank. How many of you know who that is? (instant poll)
16:13	alexyk	or, does anybody know who Justin Bieber is?
16:14	alexyk	...there's nothing wrong in admitting you do! :) For the betterment of science.
16:29	alexyk	is there a filter-not predefined?
16:30	chouser	remove
16:30	alexyk	thx!
16:35	lghtbt	hrm
16:36	lghtng	the sparlq might be a little steep for me at this point
16:36	lghtng	i need something simpler
16:36	lghtng	as a learning project
17:02	mabes	,(let [foo (transient {})] (doseq [i (range 15)] (assoc! foo i i)) (persistent! foo))
17:02	clojurebot	{0 0, 1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4, 5 5, 6 6, 7 7}
17:03	mabes	does anyone know why I could only assoc! 8 times within a doseq? ^^ (I'm using transients to count stuff)
17:03	Chousuke	mabes: that's abuse of transients
17:04	Chousuke	mabes: you can't reuse the reference.
17:05	mabes	Chousuke: well, I have a version that is not using transients and just uses maps with persistent structures but the memory use is an issue
17:05	Chousuke	mabes: no, I mean
17:05	mabes	so, I found this post that suggested using transients for something similar: http://www.bestinclass.dk/index.php/2009/12/clojure-vs-ruby-scala-transient-newsgroups/
17:05	Chousuke	mabes: you can't write imperative code with transients.
17:05	mabes	oh
17:05	mabes	hrm.
17:05	Chousuke	mabes: it's mutable, but it still needs to be functionally structured.
17:06	Chousuke	mabes: treat it as it were a regular immutable map and everything will be fine.
17:06	mabes	Chousuke: ok, so I would need to restructure the comprehension into maps or something?
17:08	alexyk	liebke: how do I plot 4 mllion [x y] pairs?
17:08	liebke	very carefully :-)
17:08	Chousuke	mabes: http://gist.github.com/257351
17:09	alexyk	liebke: I mean, what's the fun for scatter plot? And will JFreeCharts take 4 mil?
17:09	Chousuke	mabes: build it just as if it were a functional map, just substituting assoc for assoc! and wrapping the final return value with (persistent! ..)
17:10	the-kenny	alexyk: Maybe just write them to a file and call gnuplot on it
17:10	alexyk	the-kenny: the whole point of using incanter is to dispense with files :)
17:10	liebke	the function is incanter.charts/scatter-plot. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if it handled 4 mil points
17:10	alexyk	liebke: need I sort them anyhow?
17:11	liebke	no
17:11	Chousuke	mabes: the whole point is that you don't need to change the way you write algorithms just to use transients :)
17:11	alexyk	liebke: well, histogram can handle millions; I wonder how can I bucket points to plot fewer...
17:12	mabes	Chousuke: right. Thanks for the info and gist. Reading up on transients now..
17:12	liebke	alexyk: try it with the full set, see how it goes
17:13	alexyk	liebke: My data is a seq ([1 2][3 4]...), should I just call scatter-plot repeatedly with it?
17:14	liebke	scatter-plot takes two sequences, x and y -- you'll need to convert your data format a bit
17:14	alexyk	ah ok
17:14	technomancy	it seems like a lot of the confusion over transients stems from confusion between "persistent" and "immutable" data structures.
17:15	technomancy	I understand why they are often conflated, but if you focus on the fact that transients are simply not persistent then it's much clearer
17:15	Chousuke	that's why I like the naming.
17:15	rhickey_	yes, the idea is that they are opposites
17:16	rhickey_	in that dimension
17:16	technomancy	if people don't understand what persistence means, it's no wonder transients are confusing.
17:17	Chousuke	rhickey_: btw, how about extending the assert macro to accept an optional message argument? Could make error messages much clearer.
17:17	the-kenny	It's helpful to read the text about the falling tree :)
17:17	Chousuke	wouldn't be a breaking change either.
17:20	Chousuke	rhickey_: I have some documentation stuff in my git tree, and I think the pre/postcondition failure messages are a bit too generic. "assertion failure: (> x y)" is not very nice :/
17:22	lghtng	'creating identities out of things that should be values'
17:22	lghtng	man. that's deep.
17:23	polypus	is there something like finite? implemented for seqs and collections?
17:25	lghtng	you know, i sort of have a theory that object oriented paradigm creep has damaged the business model, which has given birth to the Cloud. a sort of mass retreat behind the firewalls.
17:25	technomancy	polypus: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem =)
17:26	polypus	haha
17:26	hiredman	~the halting problem?
17:26	clojurebot	"There is no problem in computer programming which cannot be solved by an added level of indirection." -- Dr Maurice Wilkes
17:27	drewr	technomancy: you noticed that swank-clojure-find-package doesn't work for namespaces with meta?
17:27	polypus	this could be done though if one knoew the origin of a seq. like (map f [1 2 3]). metadata could indicate that the seq is finite.
17:27	polypus	knew*
17:27	hiredman	~halting problem?
17:27	clojurebot	not a problem, the average bid for it on getacoder is $821.00
17:27	technomancy	drewr: I don't work with any namespaces that have metadata (other than docstrings), so I haven't noticed that myself.
17:27	technomancy	waiting for someone who does use them to submit a patch. =)
17:28	drewr	I don't work with them either until I try to patch code that does, e.g. clojure.core :-)
17:28	polypus	if it is unknown whether it is finite false could be returned from finite?
17:29	drewr	envisioning the regexp that mimics the clojure reader is giving me a headache
17:29	alexyk	liebke: can I first do (def myplot (scatter-plot xs ys)) and then (view ..) it?
17:29	liebke	yes
17:29	technomancy	drewr: boo; when did that get added to core.clj. =(
17:29	lpetit	polypus: in the case of a seq, how do you know it is unknown ? :-)
17:29	alexyk	well it's ingesting 4 mil points, let's see :)
17:30	polypus	(:finite (meta a-seq))
17:30	technomancy	drewr: not supporting it was my subtle way of discouraging people from adding useless metadata, but I guess if it's made its way into core that battle is lost. =(
17:32	polypus	map could set the meta of a new seq from a finite collection to true. if it is mapping a seq onto a seq it could inherit the meta
17:32	polypus	cycle could return a seq with #^{:finite false} etc.
17:33	polypus	is there some reason this could not work?
17:33	liebke	alexyk: cool, I need to go now, let me know later if it works.
17:33	alexyk	liebke: yeah, still ingesting...
17:34	liebke	alexyk: I imagine it will take a while. talk to you later
17:34	alexyk	liebke: ttyl
17:34	tomoj	polypus: it bottoms out
17:34	lpetit	polypus: i don't know
17:34	tomoj	and where it bottoms out, I'm sometimes going to have to say for myself whether it's finite or infinite
17:35	arohner	tomoj: what do you mean by 'bottoms out'?
17:35	polypus	tomoj: in cases where it is unknown it just just return false
17:36	hiredman_	polypus: if you want a finite seq, use a list
17:36	tomoj	polypus: ok, that could work
17:36	arohner	polypus: another way to think of this is seqs have two methods: give me the next, and give me the rest
17:37	arohner	"give me the rest" is a function that is almost arbitrary
17:37	tomoj	arohner: I mean that eventually the value for :finite has to come from somewhere, and there are places where there is no way for it to automatically be provided
17:37	lpetit	polypus: use case for this new "functionality" ?
17:37	tomoj	(unless you just are conservative and have it be false when you don't know)
17:37	polypus	tomoj: example of a place
17:38	arohner	polypus: I can construct a valid lazy seq that is infinite on Tuesdays, and finite the rest of the days of the week
17:38	tomoj	:)
17:38	polypus	lpetit: when designing an api where the user can supply a collection and you need to know whether it is finite w/o the user having to specify it explicitly.
17:38	arohner	so it does come down to the halting problem
17:39	tomoj	suppose we have a predicate that returns true if the number passed to it is the sum of two primes, false otherwise
17:39	technomancy	polypus: calling it "finite?" is misleading; the best you can do is "known-finite?"
17:39	polypus	sure the name is not set in stone
17:39	hiredman_	if it is finite, use a list
17:39	tomoj	now (take-while goldbach? (iterate (partial + 2) 2))
17:39	hiredman_	,(list? (iterate inc 0))
17:39	clojurebot	false
17:39	tomoj	no one knows whether this seq is finite or infinite :(
17:39	hiredman_	,(seq? (iterate inc 0))
17:39	clojurebot	true
17:40	hiredman_	,(apply list (take 5 (iterate inc 0))))
17:40	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
17:40	arohner	that needs to die as an idiom
17:41	tomoj	yeah
17:41	Chousuke	hmm
17:41	Chousuke	,(range)
17:41	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$range
17:41	technomancy	arohner: why a function? why not just a var? positive-integers
17:41	hiredman_	technomancy: var would hold the head
17:41	Chousuke	technomancy: head holding
17:41	technomancy	doh
17:42	lpetit	polypus: as hiredman said, in your api, either expect your user to pass a real collection (finite), or a seq (possibly infinite) + the explicit flag saying if it's finite or unknown ?
17:42	tomoj	something for just generating arithmetic sequences would be cool
17:43	tomoj	[2,4,..]
17:44	lpetit	technomancy: can you explain to me the difference between "persistent" and "immutable", or more interestingly, where the difference is important ?
17:45	hiredman_	tomoj: uh, what is iterate then?
17:46	technomancy	lpetit: in a nutshell, persistent means "old versions are still available for use without performance penalties", which means that persistent data structures are immutable, but not neccessarily vice versa
17:46	technomancy	it probably deserves a blog post. we'll see. =)
17:46	chouser	but transients are still their own thing.
17:46	technomancy	actually not 100% sure if the "without perf penalties" is part of a strict definition of persistent, but in the context of clojure it's true
17:46	chouser	not immutable and therefore not persistent. But also cannot be treated as mutable.
17:47	technomancy	chouser: but their mutability is an implementation detail that the user shouldn't be aware of. the user should just be aware of their non-persistence
17:47	technomancy	IIUC
17:47	rhickey_	technomancy: yes, that's the better way to think about it.
17:48	rhickey_	because mutability is a weak concept
17:48	tomoj	hiredman_: something I can use to make something which is for generating arithmetic sequences
17:48	aldebrn	Noob question about mutability. How should I think about Java numerical libs that operate on arrays in-place? Should my wrapper function somehow copy the input, send that to the Java lib, and return the processed copy to the caller?
17:49	rhickey_	I didn't have time earlier, but I have some new ideas around transients
17:49	technomancy	it doesn't help that to many developers coming from OO, persistence means "saving to disk". (all the good words have been used)
17:50	rhickey_	yeah
17:51	hiredman_	~latex \sum_{i=0}^{∞} i+1
17:52	notallama	is there a conventional way to name types with deftype? Like-this, OrThis, or-this?
17:53	lpetit	technomancy: so "persistent", beyond conveying the meaning of immutability, also conveys the meaning that derivative objects can be made cheaply from the datastructure at hand ?
17:55	technomancy	lpetit: more or less. and that old versions persist for free.
17:56	rhickey_	lpetit: the performance promises are those of the data structure. persistence really gets to the fact that 2 versions have independent lifetimes, both preserving those promises
17:57	rhickey_	vs implementations that cheat and have perf degrade for older versions, or older versions are read-only etc
17:58	rhickey_	for me, full persistence means older is as good as newer
18:13	KirinDave	Hm
18:14	KirinDave	I am trying to read that monad tutorial for clojure.
18:14	KirinDave	(at http://onclojure.com/2009/03/06/a-monad-tutorial-for-clojure-programmers-part-2/)
18:14	KirinDave	The "mystery" exercise is eluding me though
18:15	KirinDave	Does anyone know what the intent was there?
18:18	hiredman_	man
18:18	hiredman_	clojure cds!
18:18	hiredman_	like a relase of clojure + contrib on a cd with a printed picture on it
18:19	hiredman_	the swirly λ logo thing
18:22	technomancy	mwoichandising!</space-balls>
19:02	notallama	so i need to run some functions sequentially. order doesn't matter, but only 1 should run at a time. agents don't fit, because i need the value, not the side-effect. atoms don't work because it shouldn't retry. any suggestions?
19:07	arohner	notallama: do you need some kind of threading? Why not just a normal function?
19:07	arohner	[(funA) (funB) (funC)]
19:09	notallama	arohner: i'm trying to wrap a side-effectful, mutable-stateful library. so i'm calling the function from multiple threads, but i want it to block if another thread is doing so.
19:10	arohner	,(doc promise)
19:10	clojurebot	"([]); Experimental. Returns a promise object that can be read with deref/@, and set, once only, with deliver. Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will block. All subsequent derefs will return the same delivered value without blocking."
19:10	arohner	or maybe
19:10	arohner	,(doc future)
19:10	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block."
19:14	notallama	not quite what i need. i think i know what i need now, though. it just occured to me that this thing is basically an iterator, so a lazy-seq should work.
19:15	arohner	ah, that's interesting. you're right though, one instance of a lazy seq will evaluate each item once, in order
19:16	notallama	i think repeatedly will make this crap much easier to deal with.
19:20	mabes	I am trying to use pmap on some big chunks of data. It seems to work great and churns through everything but after it outputs the data the process just hangs for several seconds.. does that sound familiar to anyone?
19:22	_ato	mabes: add (shutdown-agents) to the end of your program
19:22	mabes	_ato: ahh, so pmap use agents under the hood that you have to shutdown explicitly... thanks for the tip
19:26	_ato	mabes: yeah, well I don't think it uses agents exactly but it uses the same thread pool. That's something that I trip over all the time. Not sure why it can't happen automatically.
19:27	mabes	_ato: ok. many thanks, that was very frustrating but we are now seeing major win with pmap :)
19:28	notallama	future uses the agent pool as well (the send-off pool)
19:31	arohner	_ato: AFAIK, java doesn't have a "it's time to shut down now" hook, so code can't clean itself up automatically
19:31	arohner	ah, nm. I has one, but has been deprecated since 1.2
19:31	arohner	s/I has/it has/
19:31	hipertracker	how tu run clojure script from the shell? What shebang I can use?
19:35	technomancy	hipertracker: there's a shell script in contrib, but there's really no single good way to do that unfortunately. everyone seems to end up rolling their own launchers. =(
19:36	hipertracker	technomancy: its is strange. even Scala has simple shebang
19:37	twbray	_ato: Waiting with bated breath for your WF writeup.
19:42	_ato	twbray: I'm on the final section. :-) Sorry, I'm a terribly slow writer
19:42	twbray	_ato: nag, nag nag
19:45	hipertracker	technomancy: I create simple bash file cljrun: java -cp /opt/local/share/java/clojure/lib/clojure.jar clojure.main $1. it work
19:45	hipertracker	er, it works
20:03	technomancy	hipertracker: there's no standard location for the jar(s) though. plus most programs at least use contrib. and then many use other third-party jars as well.
20:04	hipertracker	technomancy: I know. I use clojure from macport
20:04	hipertracker	macports
20:06	hiredman_	technomancy: you can replace the system classloader with something you can add stuff to
20:08	hiredman_	(I happen to have such a classloader am looking for feedback)
20:20	technomancy	hiredman_: O RLY? send 'er on over.
20:20	technomancy	sounds intriguing
20:21	hiredman_	http://gist.github.com/255766 if you run that, it will create a cl.jar in the pwd, and print instructions for use
20:21	technomancy	will take a look later tonight; thanks
20:22	hiredman_	let me know what you think
20:29	aldebrn	Any right way to do complex numbers in Clojure? (I'm using JTransform, it stores complex number arrays as [real1 imag1 real2 imag2 real3 imag3])
20:31	defn	aldebrn: check out http://commons.apache.org/math/userguide/complex.html
20:32	defn	aldebrn: if you're going for speed, Java might not be the right direction
20:34	defn	aldebrn: also, just out of curiosity i found there is a clojure-contrib library in the works for
20:35	aldebrn	defn, thanks. I guess I'm looking for the same kind of speed Python and Matlab give, by farming out heavy math stuff to custom C/Fortran libraries
20:35	defn	ah
20:35	defn	for it*
20:35	aldebrn	I saw that too, and was discouraged by clojure-contrib's complex support as limited to arithmetic/compare
20:36	defn	nod -- as far as speed goes it looks like C, C++, etc. is probably the best route
20:38	aldebrn	I want to emphasize that scientific computing in Python/Matlab (this latter is heavily Java-based) is very fast computationally (thanks to external libraries) and very fast coding (thanks to high-level language)
20:38	aldebrn	Are you suggesting I find what C/C++/Fortran libraries are used and write wrappers for Clojure?
20:39	defn	aldebrn: i dont know enough to give you a definite answer
20:39	defn	but that seems like a possible route, no?
20:41	aldebrn	Anything is possible :). liebke is gathering a lot of functionality in Incanter, let's hope the complex-number work has been done
20:41	defn	aldebrn: sure, it's hard to imagine incanter wouldn't at some point have complex numbers
20:42	liebke	aldebrn: Parallel Colt has complex number support, I just haven't needed it, so I haven't wrapped it
20:43	aldebrn	liebke, that's great. I'll look into it
20:43	aldebrn	Hard to do FFTs without easy complex numbers
20:46	aldebrn	Parallel Colt todo item: 'Port PLASMA 2.0 and implement all the wrappers (include complex arithmetic in single and double precision).'
20:46	aldebrn	But the basic stuff is there :)!
21:11	dnolen	_ato: ping
21:12	dnolen	_ato: so there a 10mb limit on Clojars uploads? I'm trying to get jogl2 up there so I can hack on :native-dependencies support, can this be upped just a tad?
21:12	dnolen	_ato: my jogl2 jar is 11.8mb
21:17	_ato	dnolen: ah sure. I just set a conservative 10mb to start with. Just a sec
21:18	dnolen	_ato: thx!
21:22	_ato	dnolen: give it a try now
21:22	dnolen	_ato: working like a charm.
21:23	_ato	cool. :)
21:25	Raynes	I'm surprised people still use the whole "OMG but it's a better OS than it is a text editor." thing anymore.
21:27	dnolen	_ato: how do you delete something you've pushed? does pushing something again wipe out the old one?
21:27	_ato	dnolen: if it's the same version then yeah it'll overwrite it
21:28	_ato	a delete function is on my TODO list but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
21:28	dnolen	_ato: ok cool.
21:36	tomoj	is it safe to try leiningen again yet?
21:42	defn	error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: called-interactively-p, 1
21:43	defn	im getting that when i run swank-clojure-project
21:56	_ato	twbray: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
22:01	hiredman_	_ato: #^"Ljava[.lang.String;" should be #^"[Ljava.lang.String;"
22:04	_ato	hiredman_: ah thanks
22:08	hiredman_	_ato: excellent write up
22:11	rhickey_	3000 members on the google group!!
22:12	_ato	hiredman_: thanks. :-)
22:12	danlarkin	_ato: ya just finished reading, supergrats
22:12	_ato	rhickey_: woohoo!! I was watching the count down last night... 2994... 2995...
22:14	stuartsierra	rhickey_: I dropped my Maven ticket, instead added ZIP distribution target to the Ant build.
22:15	chouser	_ato: "We open first open"
22:16	alexyk	stuartsierra: why? maven is very useful!
22:16	_ato	chouser: ah, thanks
22:16	stuartsierra	alexyk: Current build supports maven via Maven Ant Tasks
22:17	stuartsierra	Not ideal, in my opinion, but good enough for 1.1.
22:17	alexyk	stuartsierra: oh well
22:17	Raynes	Haha. It's moved from hating on Emacs, to hating on Lisp and other dynamically typed languages. (in #haskell)
22:18	alexyk	Raynes: I found #haskell very disconcerting compared to #ocaml, #scala and #clojure. Probably size matters.
22:18	alexyk	..wait until script kiddies arrive en masse
22:19	alexyk	we need a pack of strict disciplinarians ready
22:19	Raynes	Most of them are rather smart people. It just gets on my nerves when they pretend Haskell is the only viable language out there.
22:19	hiredman_	clojurebot: whose job is it to keep them in line?
22:19	clojurebot	that's weihsiu's job
22:20	Raynes	It's sort of like the Java, C#, etc coders pretending that object orientation is the only way to do things.
22:20	rhickey_	stuartsierra: my maven concerns had to do with artifact naming etc. I think there was some problem last time with the svn tag not matching or something.
22:21	rhickey_	we should still build with ant definitely
22:21	stuartsierra	rhickey_: Ok, I submitted a patch to build a distribution ZIP with Ant.
22:21	rhickey_	also ericthorsen has brought up an issue with our pom which was never resolved
22:21	rhickey_	something about it messes up Netbeans
22:22	stuartsierra	~seen ericthorsen
22:22	clojurebot	ericthorsen was last seen joining #clojure, 237 minutes ago
22:22	alexyk	funny, I was pondering using jruby in my JVM stable, and tried to see if I have all the standard map, filter, list routines in it. What OO briings there is . notation left to right and the do...end block, possibly as { } -- that's a good contribution to functional. The question is, can you translate most of the goodness between clojure and ruby.
22:25	stuartsierra	Found ericthorsen's msg: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/c8cec4225fecd01d/3d39f207754cb263
22:25	technomancy	_ato: looks like a stray "nnnn" snuck into your WF2 article
22:25	technomancy	(happens to me all the time)
22:25	stuartsierra	The problem appears to be that Netbeans sees a pom.xml and assumes that the project is Maven-based.
22:26	stuartsierra	Which it isn't, so Netbeans assumes a different directory structure than what's there.
22:26	rhickey_	zip with ant a good idea
22:27	rhickey_	stuartsierra: yes, I didn't know enough about either to help him, but no one ever chimed in
22:27	alexyk	how do you materialize a lazy seq in the same way as (count xs)?
22:27	_ato	technomancy: thanks. yeah.. I just recently disabled arrow keys to force myself to do navigate the proper way so I keep doing that all the time now :P
22:27	alexyk	_ato: Clojurnne beginners :)
22:27	stuartsierra	rhickey_: It should be better now that we have pom-template.xml instead of pom.xml
22:28	alexyk	_ato: nice writeup
22:28	rhickey_	stuartsierra: ok
22:29	stuartsierra	rhickey_: sent ericthorsen an email about that
22:29	rhickey_	the new zip file should nest the stuff in a clojure directory, got complaint about the old one
22:30	stuartsierra	Yes, I made sure to do that.
22:30	stuartsierra	It creates clojure-{VERSION}.zip, expanding to clojure-{VERSION}/...
22:31	rhickey_	makes sense
22:31	stuartsierra	Changes doc is coming along nicely; Chousuke wrote up pre/post conditions.
22:40	defn	(defn merge-rows [a b] (map + (map #(apply max %) (partition 2 1 a)) b)) (map #(apply max %) (partition 2 1 (reverse [[1] [2 3 4] [5 6 7]])))
22:40	defn	err (merge-rows (reverse [[1] [2 3] [4 5 6]]))
22:40	defn	why doesnt merge-rows blow up here? im only giving it one arg
22:41	hiredman_	it should, if it doesn't then it is not defined or being called as you described
22:41	defn	oops nevermind
22:42	hiredman_	:)
22:42	defn	what i was surprised about i guess is:
22:42	defn	,(partition 2 1 [[4 5 6] [2 3] [1]])
22:42	clojurebot	(([4 5 6] [2 3]) ([2 3] [1]))
22:43	defn	so merge-rows understands the first arg to be [4 5 6] and [2 3], yes?
22:43	defn	err the first and second args
22:44	hiredman_	eh?
22:45	defn	(defn merge-rows[a b]
22:45	defn	(map + (map #(apply max %) (partition 2 1 a)) b))
22:45	defn
22:45	defn	(reduce merge-rows (reverse routes))
22:45	defn	bleh sorry
22:46	defn	the only arg there, in my eyes, is the array of arrays, which is routes: [[4 5 6] [2 3] [1]]
22:46	hiredman_	not arrays
22:46	hiredman_	vectors
22:46	defn	blahhhh im sorry man my brain is mush
22:46	tomoj	reduce is not calling the function with (reverse routes)
22:46	hiredman_	and partition being a seq function calls seq on it's argument
22:46	defn	oh right
22:47	defn	im going to quit on that note, i cant believe i missed that :\
22:47	hiredman_	so you get '([4 5 6] [2 3] [1]) and partition operates on a seq of values
22:48	defn	yeah, reduce is really what gives us the ability to apply that function across routes
22:49	defn	anyways, thanks for showing me the error of my ways
22:52	defn	http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
22:52	defn	_ato: nice.
22:53	_ato	:)
22:56	defn	_ato: this is awesome. thanks for posting it. can i add an rss feed to your blog, or should i download this so i dont lose it :)
22:57	_ato	defn: there's an atom thingy here: http://meshy.org/atom.xml
22:57	_ato	which may or may not be valid
22:57	defn	yeah i found it after a bit of trial and error
22:57	defn	it looks valid to me
22:58	defn	i guess my main question was, do you plan to keep this blog up?
22:59	_ato	yeah probably. I don't expect to post that often, but there's some clojars stuff I'd like to write up
22:59	defn	nod -- what are you using for writing your post? it looks like... pygments + markdown maybe?
23:00	twbray	Hey _ato, is http://meshy.org/ your canonical URL?
23:00	_ato	twbray: yep
23:01	twbray	Yes, your feed is valid, http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmeshy.org%2Fatom.xml
23:01	_ato	defn: yeah, I tried jekyll after you were talking about it. I'm a big fan of markdown and pygments just works. Here's what the source looks like: http://meshy.org/~ato/tmp/2009-12-13-widefinder-2-with-clojure.markdown.txt
23:03	twbray	_ato: Was that 13 minutes really your first run?
23:03	technomancy	should that be mentioned in the docstring?
23:04	twbray	_ato: You want an affiliation if I mention you? "Alex Osborne, of XXX..."
23:05	hiredman_	of #clojure :P
23:05	_ato	twbray: I think it was my first run that completed on the full dataset. That may not be the exact timing but it was around that. I'd done a fair bit of testing on the smaller version, and didn't give it enough RAM in my real first run so it just got stuck.
23:05	defn	_ato: cool, what this {% highlight clojure %} line? I've been using a verion of markdown in python where you specify code blocks with a #!clojure or :::clojure depending on if you want line nos
23:06	twbray	hiredman: I like that
23:08	_ato	twbray: you could say "National Library of Australia" as the affiliation
23:08	_ato	http://www.nla.gov.au/
23:08	twbray	OK
23:08	twbray	Canberra is an unsuspected hotbed of functional programming I'm sure
23:09	_mst	our clojure user group has two members!
23:09	_mst	but we're marketing aggressively...
23:09	_ato	_mst: we should add Mark Reid to it
23:09	defn	heh, i cant find anyone around here interested in clojure
23:09	_mst	three members!
23:09	shoover	technomancy: It uses the cached (growable) thread pool used by send-off, so it shouldn't affect anything related to agents
23:09	_mst	(the third doesn't know he's in yet... the initiation may come as a shock)
23:10	defn	_mst: haha
23:10	defn	is this '_' business preceding your nicks a gang sign?
23:10	_mst	hm... isn't that just something erc does?
23:10	_mst	a gang of sorts...
23:10	tomoj	erc doesn't do it to me
23:11	_mst	I mean, since "mst" was already taken by someone more deserving :)
23:11	_ato	yeah.. same for me
23:11	technomancy	shoover: I just was noticing that _ato's code calls shutdown-agents after using pmap
23:11	tomoj	I get a backtick on the end if I try to connect when I'm still here
23:12	technomancy	if that's required it should be stated somewhere
23:12	shoover	technomancy: true, you would need to know that
23:12	twbray	There are a few things in _ato's code that you "need to know" :)
23:12	twbray	Now more people will.
23:13	shoover	I like how _ato put the appropriate emphasis on "don't rewrite split unless you have to!"
23:13	defn	yeah, kudos _ato for not just the great code, but an excellent explanation
23:14	_ato	yeah, I think pmap uses the same thread pool as agents. I guess it's called shutdown-agents just because agents existed before pmap
23:14	shoover	technomancy: my question is if we can get rid of shutdown-agents by using daemon threads and making the programmer call await to purposely block on running agent threads
23:15	shoover	in other words, use threads that don't intrinsically block System/exit
23:15	_mst	shoover: it's come up before: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/124
23:16	shoover	_mst: thanks, I wasn't aware
23:17	technomancy	_ato: hey, I hope you haven't been waiting on me for that clojars browse functionality I said I was going to write.
23:18	technomancy	I'm going to have to retract my offer to implement it; too busy with lein and swank and holidays etc.
23:18	_ato	technomancy: nope, I've been distracted by this widefinder stuff. I've got 6 clojars emails sitting in my inbox that I need to deal with now that's out of the way
23:18	technomancy	or at least to implement it in a timely manner
23:18	_ato	technomancy: okay, no worries :)
23:20	technomancy	actually that's not fair; I'm glad there are a lot of people discussing/contributing to leiningen and swank
23:20	technomancy	I just can't keep up. =)
23:22	chouser	_ato: great writeup!
23:24	_ato	chouser: thanks. :-)
23:32	defn	_ato: will you be submitting this to the results page for WF?
23:32	defn	_ato: you mention you inched past single-threaded C, but you also beat one of the OCaml implementations
23:34	_ato	ah, I guess I should
23:34	_ato	hmm
23:37	defn	it looks like you're supposed to email tim.bray@sun.com with your results for a 100,000 line sample, but seeing as tim is in here, im not sure that's necessary
23:38	_ato	yeah, I think that's just to get an account on the box. probably I just need to create a sun account and I'll be able to edit the wiki
23:38	_ato	going for lunch though first, I'm starving, writing really takes a lot of energy
23:38	defn	_ato: again, great job, enjoy your lunch :)
23:41	tomoj	mabes: hey, are you a clojurian now?
23:41	devlinsf	Where is _ato's post?
23:41	mabes	tomoj: heh, getting there ;) I have some people on board at work so we've been doing some prototyping with it to get a feel for it
23:42	mabes	devlinsf: http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html
23:42	tomoj	cool
23:42	mabes	tomoj: what about you?
23:42	tomoj	seems to me that people here aren't as obsessed with testing
23:42	tomoj	I miss webrat :(
23:43	tomoj	mabes: also getting there, but much more slowly probably
23:43	mabes	tomoj: I think we are probably going to keep all of out webapps in ruby for the time being.. we are just using clojure for the backend heavy lifting stuff
23:43	tomoj	yeah, makes sense
23:44	defn	tomoj: im interested in testing more, but for now im focused on learning forms and playing with the pieces
23:44	tomoj	I hope someday for a clojure webapp ecosystem that makes me as happy as ruby's
23:44	mabes	there is a clojure webdriver adapter currently.. and you can use cucumber with clojure so that will get you pretty far
23:44	tomoj	wat
23:44	tomoj	shit, I've been working on a webdriver adapter, didn't know someone already did it
23:45	mabes	heh, yeah... lemme get the link...
23:45	devlinsf	_ato: Good stuff
23:45	defn	what is the biggest step between where clojure's web development tools are now and where ruby's are?
23:45	tomoj	mikitebeka's?
23:45	devlinsf	defn: I'd say front end
23:45	mabes	tomoj: http://github.com/mikitebeka/webdriver-clj yep
23:46	tomoj	thanks
23:46	devlinsf	defn: It's really easy to make Rails look great
23:46	devlinsf	defn: Of course, I'm a CSS + HTML nerd
23:47	tomoj	I started with an htmlunit adapter because there I could use enlive style selectors easily, which was awesome. with webdriver I don't think I can do that efficiently, but oh well :(
23:47	tomoj	frontend? you mean like sass/erb/haml stuff?
23:47	devlinsf	Yeah
23:48	devlinsf	The "What people see" stuff
23:48	devlinsf	I like erb
23:48	devlinsf	Of course, I'm no compojure expert
23:49	tomoj	I think I have been convinced of enlive's style of doing things over erb's
23:49	tomoj	defn: my personal concern currently is acceptance testing
23:49	hiredman_	if I recall correctly webdriver uses htmlunit
23:49	hiredman_	(htmlunit is nice)
23:50	tomoj	yeah but it abstracts over it so that it can also use firefox etc
23:50	technomancy	erb is horrible
23:50	mabes	hiredman_: thats correct- and you can have it switch to seleniun
23:50	tomoj	which means I can't do what I did when using htmlunit directlly
23:50	devlinsf	technomancy: It's what I know
23:51	technomancy	I mean it's obvious, but it's ugly and impossible to write good tool support for
23:51	mabes	erb is nice for designers... if you think your designer complained about writing haml just let them try the compojure html syntax :p
23:51	technomancy	since ruby's grammar is insane to begin with; embedding it inside HTML just pushes it over the edge
23:51	tomoj	mabes: let them try enlive :)
23:52	tomoj	there they just hand you the html mockup with fake data and everything
23:52	devlinsf	I haven't wrote HTML in 6 months
23:52	devlinsf	I DO like clojure's XML stuff way better
23:52	mabes	tomoj: yeah, it looked interesting but I haven't tried it.. are you working on a project that is available on github?
23:53	defn	devlinsf: yeah ive used rails a lot and ive enjoyed it, im trying to use compojure right now, but ive found it pretty kludgey
23:53	tomoj	nope, I am at the just-playing-around stage
23:53	mabes	yeah...
23:53	danm_	wow, 8 minutes for WF2?
23:53	danm_	great writeup
23:53	defn	definitely
23:53	defn	ato is a rockstar
23:53	danm_	no kidding
23:53	defn	to use the parlance of our times
23:54	danm_	that's pretty cool
23:54	technomancy	if his avatar is any reflection of reality, he's got the hair to match