#clojure – 2009-12-14

2009-12-14

00:50	tolstoy	how do you get Ant to print out the classpath it thinks it has?
00:50	tolstoy	Oops! Nevermind! Getting a useful error message! Yay!
02:44	ordnungswidrig	g'morning, all
03:24	LauJensen	Morning team :)
03:55	LauJensen	Where are the results for the Wide Finder 2 runs ? For all languages?
03:58	LauJensen	Ah got it
04:14	LauJensen	Is Danny from Dannynet present here today?
04:30	G0SUB	hey
04:30	G0SUB	I am facing some problems in downloading compojure using lein + clojars
04:31	G0SUB	compojure depends on clojure-1.1.0-alpha
04:31	G0SUB	there is nothing called clojure-1.1.0-alpha
04:31	G0SUB	it's either 1.1.0-master or 1.1.0-new
04:32	hiredman	well, you might be able to go into lein's cache (~/.m2/ maybe?) and just change the name of a jar file
04:36	G0SUB	hiredman: hmm, but why does compojure depend on a non-existent jar?
04:39	hiredman	G0SUB: the name of the jars built was changed to include the name of the branch
04:40	hiredman	happened a few days ago
04:40	G0SUB	hmm
04:41	G0SUB	hiredman: any idea when compojure will get fixed?
04:41	hiredman	nope
04:42	hiredman	I think I might have heard something about a recent version of lein that somehow works around this, but I could be wrong
04:42	G0SUB	hmm
05:06	G0SUB	hiredman: where can I get the project.clj file used for compojure?
05:08	hiredman	no idea
05:08	G0SUB	ok
06:02	G0SUB	which is the best FTP client for Java?
06:14	cark	i'm using apache commons ftp
06:15	G0SUB	cark: any nice Clojure wrappers around it?
06:15	cark	not that i know
06:15	G0SUB	ok
06:15	cark	it wouldn't be that usefull anyways
06:17	G0SUB	cark: found one http://github.com/kyleburton/sandbox/blob/master/clojure-utils/kburton-clojure-utils/src/main/clj/com/github/kyleburton/sandbox/ftp.clj :)
06:18	cark	nice =)
07:17	fliebel	Woha! This morning I woke up thinking about an application as fluid going though a set of pipelines and filters from input to output. Like… streaming data instead of calling functions. I invented flow programming, looked it up on google, found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow-based_programming This actually fits quite nicely in the lazy functional style of clojure, doesn't it?
07:21	fliebel	actually more like this maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming
07:27	karmazilla	I wonder how common it is to have this experience where you reinvent dataflow programming. I've tried it too.
07:32	lpetit	,(doc promise)
07:32	clojurebot	"([]); Experimental. Returns a promise object that can be read with deref/@, and set, once only, with deliver. Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will block. All subsequent derefs will return the same delivered value without blocking."
07:37	fliebel	karmazilla: I'm not sure about that… anyone else had the same?
07:38	fliebel	lpetit: that is something like a lazy var, right? I'm not sure if I understand that...
07:39	lpetit	fliebel: it enables threads to synchronize on the availability of data. Sort of "dataflow" building block
07:39	fliebel	,(doc deliver)
07:39	clojurebot	"([promise val]); Experimental. Delivers the supplied value to the promise, releasing any pending derefs. A subsequent call to deliver on a promise will throw an exception."
07:40	fliebel	lpetit: So I set up a whole train of functions to use that object, and the 'release' it with the input source?
07:42	lpetit	fliebel: something like that, but I'm not expert. Just remembered this having been mentioned in the ml. I guess if there are several functions waiting for the delivery of the value, they must be in different threads.
07:42	karmazilla	lpetit: Neat. I've been annoyed that Java doesn't have a standard Promise class.
07:43	fliebel	lpetit: yea, you'd need treads… or you'd need to be able to return something and then happily continue computations.
07:43	lpetit	fliebel: there is this :http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/dataflow-api.html , I don't know it much, though.
07:44	fliebel	lpetit: sounds cool
07:45	fliebel	I've found another Wikipedia page about something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_reactive_programming I think it might be more appropriate for a functional language…
07:55	lpetit	fliebel: yes, there so much interesting stuff to read. this one is close in my todo, also :)
07:57	fliebel	lpetit: agreed! :D
08:08	fliebel	It seems like such a powerful paradigm, yet I can find out so little about it. Some obscure languages doing it and some packages adding it to existing languages, most likely not designed with this paradigm in mind.
08:13	lpetit	fliebel: there's an introductory book on haskell which as a comprehensive example using this (if I remember correctly), but I didn't manage to get through the book past this example, since: 1./ I had little time to read the book, and 2./ I rediscovered clojure in the mean time :-)
08:14	lpetit	fliebel : there it is : http://www.haskell.org/soe/
08:16	fliebel	lpetit: thanks
08:32	LauJensen	I apologize for the OT question, but Google is let me down. Does anyone know of a time-tracker with similar functionality as org-mode, which just sits in a little linux desktop app instead of Emacs? (not Hamster)
08:37	ohpauleez	LauJensen: I know of a Java-based time tracker app I thought looked real nice, but I never ended up using
08:37	ohpauleez	let me see if I can dig it up
08:37	LauJensen	ohpauleez: Makagiga? I'm looking at it right now
08:37	ohpauleez	LauJensen: http://rachota.sourceforge.net/en/index.html
08:37	LauJensen	ah ok, thanks
08:38	ohpauleez	totally welcome
08:50	LauJensen	Is there a way to pass the working directory as a command-line-arg to Java? java -jar /myproj/start.jar -wp /myproj ?
08:57	fliebel	I think you're supposed to cd there. If you only need the classes you can of course add it to cp.
08:57	LauJensen	k
09:10	fliebel	lpetit: I found a new language! http://www.mozart-oz.org/ Not nearly as cute and clean as Clojure and Python, but it looks powerful.
09:15	lpetit	fliebel: yes, it's the language the "CTM" book is based upon
09:15	lpetit	fliebel: "Concepts, Techniques and Models" of programming. Great book, bought it, 940 pages, read ~ 50 at the moment :-)
09:16	lpetit	fliebel: http://www.amazon.com/Concepts-Techniques-Models-Computer-Programming/dp/0262220695/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260800058&sr=8-1
09:16	fliebel	cool
09:18	lpetit	fliebel: honestly, I find it a little bit hard to follow. But certainly worth reading it because it does not impose a certain vision (object oriented, purely functional, imperative, declarative, etc) on you, but rather seems to present all those alternatives and compares them
09:19	lpetit	fliebel: by "compares", I don't mean with the goal of having some final word such as "which one is the best", but rather "which one works the best for which kind of situation"
09:20	fliebel	lpetit: so you know oz?
09:20	lpetit	fliebel: just by name, and because it's the language used for the examples in the CTM book.
09:23	lpetit	fliebel: they use the notion of a "kernel language", with just enough primitives to allow write other primitives on top of it. They present the programming paradigms one by one, showing adding the missing primitives to the kernel language as they go, showing which notion is missing to be able to introduce each new paradigm.
09:23	lpetit	fliebel: sometimes I which I had not a job and could just sit at home in front of my laptop and with the dozen or so books I've bought but not yet read :-)
09:24	LauJensen	lpetit: sounds like an interesting comparison :)
09:25	lpetit	LauJensen: talking about my desire to have more time to study, or the previous post describing CTM ? :-)
09:26	LauJensen	"You'd want Objects when you need complexity which is unmanageable and no real tool for handling time. On the other hand, go with Functional paradigms for the cases where you dont want bugs and need a smaller codebase."
09:26	LauJensen	Your 'book review'
09:28	lpetit	LauJensen: where did you see this citation ?
09:28	LauJensen	I was just imagining what 'compares in terms of what to use when and not which is better' looks like written out in a book
09:29	lpetit	LauJensen: when I eventually finish the book (hopefully in 10 months, more certainly in 10 years) I promise I give you the answer :-)
09:30	LauJensen	I'll look forward to it :)
09:57	Tommock	hello
09:57	Tommock	can anyone figure out what is wrong with this http://pastebin.org/64723 ?
09:59	chouser	((if ...)) will try to execute the return value of the 'if'
09:59	chouser	perhaps you want (if ...), this is only a single pair of parens
10:03	Tommock	chouser: oh so easy, thanks a lot!
10:04	chouser	np
10:04	Tommock	been trying to figure out what whas wrong for an hour or so now :)
10:04	chouser	out of curiousity, where'd the extra parens come from in the first place?
10:05	Tommock	my reasoning probably whent something like "the body of the function should be inclosed by something
10:05	chouser	ok
10:05	chouser	it jumped out at me because (( is pretty rare in Clojure code
10:05	Tommock	chouser: how is my indent style? looks ok?
10:05	Tommock	not sure how things should look
10:07	chouser	The body of 'do' should be indented another level
10:07	chouser	that way the 'then' and 'else' parts of 'if' stand out as the only two things at the same level under 'if'.
10:08	chouser	other than that it's ok, though I'd recommend spaces instead of tabs -- 2 spaces per level is most common, though 4 is probably ok.
10:09	Tommock	chouser: my personal preference is tabs but thanks for the advice :D
10:10	Tommock	well I
10:10	Tommock	'm off then
10:10	chouser	bye
10:21	rhickey	http://clojure.org/funding
10:22	chouser	rhickey: might be good to have a donate button (or link to one) on that page.
10:22	rhickey	I added a link back to the home page
10:22	chouser	oh ok, I see that now.
10:22	rhickey	could put it right there...
10:25	LauJensen	rhickey: I think that a public indication of how much support you raise would be motivational for private contributors, how would you feel about that?
10:25	rhickey	ok, Donate button right on funding page now
10:26	rhickey	LauJensen: I am asking people if they want to be listed on a Donors page, will set that up soon
10:27	LauJensen	rhickey: Not quite was I was thinking, but something like Wikipedias progressbars.
10:27	rhickey	LauJensen: no
10:27	lpetit	LauJensen: you mean a progress bar towards a full year of work from Rich funding ?
10:28	LauJensen	Yes something like that
10:28	LauJensen	I always find that stuff motivational
10:38	cemerick	rhickey: A donors page would be good. Mix that with the opportunity to list job openings from sponsors, perhaps.
10:42	rhickey	cemerick: you've mentioned that before - what's the idea there?
10:44	cemerick	rhickey: well, from the perspective of larger sponsors (whatever that means), being able to highlight that connection and therefore perhaps attract highly self-screened candidates (programmers already looking at the clojure.org site) would be an obvious advantage compared to existing recruitment paths
10:44	icey	Python uses "sponsor members" for corporate donors: http://python.org/psf/#id2
10:44	icey	maybe something like that?
10:45	cemerick	for you and the broader clojure community, being able to show that there is an active job market lends to the language's credibility in all sorts of ways
10:46	cemerick	rhickey: I think it would be totally reasonable for you to host a clojure-centric job board, charge some nominal amount to submit listings (which obviously helps with the funding), and then sponsors' listings are always at the top, or highlighted, or whatever.
10:47	cemerick	icey: yeah, something like that, although the presentation there is...lacking
10:47	rhickey	cemerick: I'm all for job listings, I guess my initial pang is that limiting it to sponsors might be excluding. OTOH, once you are hiring Clojure devs, sponsoring is a good idea. This would be for Clojure-related jobs only, right?
10:48	icey	cemerick: well I'm not suggesting using their design ;) However, I do know that the donors page has turned into a good recruitment tool for companies that want to show that they support the language
10:48	chouser	well. Clojure and PHP of course.
10:48	rhickey	:)
10:48	angerman	phew ... I can continue to use clojure.
10:48	cemerick	rhickey: oh, I would never say that listings should be limited to sponsors. I would say that a sponsorship of $X or more would get the organization in question N "free" job listings for the following year or whatever.
10:48	angerman	;;)
10:49	cemerick	rhickey: "clojure-centric" is a reasonable phrase, although the meaning is obviously flexible.
10:49	chouser	:-)
10:49	cemerick	heh
10:50	angerman	~t-test (:ns incanter.stats)
10:50	clojurebot	I don't understand.
10:50	angerman	:/
10:51	cemerick	rhickey: it's obviously going to be a little thin for some time, so until there's a regular deal flow, as it were, just keeping a list of available jobs on a static page would be fine :-)
10:51	chouser	angerman: I'm curious about your comment about continuing to use clojure.
10:51	icey	You could always threaten people with adoption of a bizarre Franz-like licensing model for forward versions ;)
10:51	angerman	chouser: I'm student at TU Munich
10:51	cemerick	ouch
10:51	angerman	money is quite shallow
10:51	chouser	angerman: ah, ok. That was my guess.
10:52	angerman	My stupid questions reveal my identity I guess, he
10:53	chouser	angerman: oh, nonsense.
10:54	angerman	well, Google Talk on YouTube in 10 minutes. bye
10:55	the-kenny	Google Talk on Youtube?
10:55	maddis	perhaps a talk at Google live on YouTube?
10:55	angerman	yes. They host it in our biggest lecture hall at the Mathematics and Computerscience Bldg. Campus Garching.
10:57	the-kenny	Oh, Google holds a talk about Youtube? I read it "Google Talk (the Xmpp-Service) on Youtube"
10:57	angerman	yes
11:02	chouser	it might be fun to add "I paid for Clojure" to your signature on google group posts.
11:03	cemerick	ah, good idea
11:03	icey	have you considered forming a nonprofit (501(c)3) for the Clojure finances?
11:03	cemerick	if licensing won't do it, if entreaties won't do it, then shame will! :-)
11:03	esj	cemerick: you must be Catholic :p
11:03	cemerick	heh, hardly
11:04	cemerick	but shame is a wonderful motivator.
11:04	cemerick	internet anonymity makes it slightly harder to pull off, but it's worth a shot
11:09	rhickey	chouser: Yes, "I paid for Clojure" is a fine idea
11:09	shoover	As distinct from a "Clojure was my idea" marketing campaign
11:10	rhickey	:)
11:10	shoover	Only authors of books and langs on the Clojure reading list can put that
11:11	the-kenny	Maybe everyone who donates can get a handwritten closing-parenthesis from rhickey, xkcd does something like this with scans from their comics.
11:12	chouser	haha! a closing paren.
11:12	_fogus_	If you donate above a certain amount you can get a matching opening paren
11:13	Chousuke	what about the other data structures? :/
11:13	icey	I wonder how much effort it would take to create one of those laminated 1-page "cheatsheets" you see out there, and sell them from the website. The language is small enough that the pertinent information should fit
11:15	cemerick	little chotchkies are nice, but I'll wager making them would be a huge PITA for rhickey shrug
11:16	icey	cemerick: yeah, that's what i was concerned about
11:16	stuartsierra	You'd want to outsource all the printing/delivery to something like cafepress.
11:16	devlinsf	cemerick: So do what PBS does, and "sell" them for $50 each
11:17	stuartsierra	devlinsf: Yes!
11:17	icey	although, along the cafepress route, i'd certainly buy a clojure logo coffee cup. but that's probably just the caffiene addict in me speaking
11:17	devlinsf	icey: :)
11:17	chouser	there are already clojure T-shirts
11:17	icey	chouser: they don't hold my coffee well :(
11:18	chouser	to date they've brought in about enough money to pay for about 30mins of rhickey clojure development time. :-)
11:19	chouser	which granted is long enough to fully develop a feature like 'trampoline', but still...
11:19	the-kenny	icey: But you can drain them in coffee and absorb the coffeine with your skin
11:19	icey	I definitely agree that straight donations are the most efficient way to go; but there will always be a number of people who won't donate straight cash but will buy little toys or whatever. no idea why, but i know they're out there
11:20	_fogus_	chouser: Are those the "State: YDiW" shirts?
11:20	chouser	_fogus_: there are a few styles.
11:21	chouser	http://www.zazzle.com/clojure
11:21	chouser	"don't be so eager"
11:21	chouser	"lisp is not dead. The url is now clojure.org"
11:21	chouser	"I get more done when I'm lazy"
11:22	_fogus_	Ahhh. I got the state shirt a long time ago but didn't know there were more to choose from. Looks like I will never again need to wear non-Clojure clothing.
11:23	chouser	heh.
11:23	chouser	oh, you bought it from zazzle? How was the print quality? I haven't seen one yet.
11:24	_fogus_	Very nice actually. Good quality fabric also. I've had it since perhaps day 2 and it's still in great shape.
11:26	maravillas	certainly there must be a threads pun appropriate for a tshirt
11:26	hiredman	ping?
11:26	clojurebot	PONG!
11:27	hiredman	aww, come on
11:27	hiredman	there we go
11:29	esj	is it idiomatic to put your tests in .clj where the target functions are defined ?
11:30	devlinsf	esj: how are you testing?
11:30	esj	clojure.test
11:30	devlinsf	My opinion is no
11:30	devlinsf	If you were using the meta, I'd say yes
11:31	devlinsf	You're talking about putting it all in the same ns, right?
11:31	esj	Thanks. I tend to agree. I want to put them in a seperate file and then (use it. I'm missing something though, because then I run into ns issues.
11:31	esj	aaah, devlinsf, read my mind
11:32	devlinsf	Well, I do the following w/ my code
11:32	devlinsf	I have (ns a.long.ns ... and I define a test lib. Usually (ns test.a.long.ns
11:32	devlinsf	Also depends one the code
11:32	esj	ok
11:33	devlinsf	A lot of my stuff has a lib prefix in the ns
11:33	stuartsierra	esj: It's tempting to try to put tests and fns in the same file, I even tried to support it with clojure.test. But it ends up being messy in practice.
11:33	esj	then test.a.a.long.ns uses a.long.ns and badda bind ?
11:33	devlinsf	badda?
11:33	esj	s/badda bind/badda-bing/
11:33	devlinsf	Oh, badda nibg
11:33	devlinsf	bing
11:33	devlinsf	Yes
11:33	esj	:)
11:34	esj	ok, thanks gents. This time I'm reall, REALLY, going to write the tests for my code...
11:34	devlinsf	check out contrib's structure
11:34	devlinsf	there's clojure.contrib.a-ns
11:34	esj	devlinsf: great idea, shoulda thought of that.
11:34	devlinsf	and usually clojure.contrib.test.a-ns
11:35	devlinsf	Some libs are different, though
11:35	esj	will do.
11:35	patrkris	I'm reviewing some of the articles that are critical of STM, and wondered if there is a fundamental difference between the transaction systems found in database systems that makes transactions viable in those and not in programming languages?
11:35	devlinsf	esj: Good luck
11:36	chouser	patrkris: STM is a very broad category of functionality. Don't assume that critisizm of one STM implementation applies to another.
11:37	esj	devlinsf: thanks.
11:37	arohner	patrkris: and even between programming languages, the functionality in one language STM is very different from another
11:38	arohner	most of the "STM is a failure" articles you see talk about cramming STM into Java / C#, with little to no change in syntax or semantics
11:39	patrkris	chouser, arohner: yes, but reading "STM: Why is it only a research toy?" gives the impression, that there is something fundamentally wrong with STM - but I see so many things in that article that doesn't apply to Clojure's implementation
11:39	arohner	STM in java with lots of mutable state everywhere and no change in language semantics is a very different beast that building STM in at the start to a functional language with immutable data
11:40	patrkris	arohner: yes you are right
11:40	arohner	the proof is still in the pudding. their articles really just say "we couldn't get STM to work". Look at clojure yourself, and decide if clojure got STM to work. :-)
11:41	patrkris	yes... their focus is also on performance, it appears. Doesn't matter whether your programs are correct, I suppose :)
11:41	chouser	for one, because of the immutable collections and other reference types, you can actually do quite a lot of even multithreaded work in Clojure without ever using the STM.
11:41	dabd	where is the macro 'defprotocol' defined?
11:42	chouser	dabd: in the 'new' branch
11:42	patrkris	chouser: yes, that is one of the things I am going to mention in what I'm writing
11:42	dabd	chouser: I'm trying to compile the enclojure plugin and it fails because it uses this macro
11:45	liwp	dabd: defprotocol is defined only in the 'new' branch of the clojure github repository, so if you're using the 'master' branch or the 1.0 version of clojure you won't have the defprotocol macro
11:46	liwp	dabd: you'll have to move to the 'new' branch to be able to use the compojure plugin if it depends on defprotocol
11:46	hiredman	liwp: enclojure
11:46	liwp	uhh, sorry
11:47	hiredman	it's odd that enclojure would depend on the new branch
11:47	chouser	that's what I was thinking.
11:47	chouser	dabd: maybe you should try a slightly older version of enclojure?
11:48	dabd	chouser: yes currently I'm unable to use enclojure because it fails to start a project REPL
11:48	dabd	so I was trying to build it from source to see what is happening
11:49	cemerick	rhickey: to what degree are you going to report on fundraising efforts? I know that's getting very close to your personal finances, but being able to say "X has been raised across N contributions averaging K per contribution" would be interesting/encouraging.
11:50	dabd	hiredman: you can see defprotocol being used here in the enclojure source http://github.com/EricThorsen/enclojure/blob/master/src/protocols/src/org/enclojure/protocols.clj
11:51	rhickey	cemerick: maybe X% of a year of funding? and a graph/chart?
11:52	cemerick	rhickey: sure. A normalized distribution of contribution amounts would be decent.
11:53	cemerick	People could infer a lot from something like that, so I wouldn't blame you for not sharing to that degree.
11:53	icey	rhickey: the only real problem with stating a goal like that is that I think you'll end up less likely to recieve donations as you near your goal
11:54	icey	although it's not bad for the time you're under 50% of your goal
11:54	rhickey	icey: true
11:54	cemerick	someone mentioned a progress bar before though, which can be motivating for some
11:55	Chousuke	what's the minimum donation that benefits you, by the way?
11:56	icey	hmmm... if you made the progress bar the goal for 2 years instead of one, it'd probably be less of an issue - even if you exceeded the goal for 1 year, it would give you the chance to start raising for the next year
11:56	icey	and if you could raise 2 years worth of funding inside of a 1 year window, you could change the verbiage
12:01	icey	I am curious if today's push will pay for at least a month of development when all is said & done.
12:21	reify	time to ebay all my non-essential computer equipment =)
12:21	reify	clojure, the "cloud", is all i need
12:23	_fogus_	Hacker News seems to think that Clojure was created by some guy named Rick.
12:31	maddis	i have a remote REPL running through leiningen ('lein swank') and connected to it through M-x slime-connect, but I can't figure out how to compile/run local code I have open in another buffer through C-c C-k (or the slime-compile* commands). and tips on that?
12:32	the-kenny	maddis: Maybe with M-x slime-connection-list?
12:32	the-kenny	It should be possible to make a connection the "default" one in that buffer.
12:41	maddis	hmm, on C-c C-k it tires to find the local file on the remote location, which is not there.
12:41	maddis	1 compiler notes: Unknown location: error: java.io.FileNotFoundException: /home/matthias/da/code/garec/src/garec.clj (No such file or directory). Compilation failed.
12:42	maddis	or am I completely wrong here and this all works different? :)
12:46	the-kenny	maddis: Hm.. then try M-x eval-region
12:46	the-kenny	uhm
12:47	the-kenny	slime-eval-region or slime-eval-buffer
12:49	maddis	ok, that works. thanks
13:00	the-kenny	What are the naming-conventions for the defproject from leiningen, if I want to push it to clojars>
13:01	patrkris	are there any case studies available of large applications with a high degree of concurrency using Clojure (and especially the STM) succesfully?
13:03	maddis	patrkris, perhaps this will help you: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1562870
13:04	patrkris	maddis: thanks
13:49	qed	where can we donate to clojure?
13:49	hiredman	clojure.org
13:49	qed	oh, right :)
13:49	qed	thanks
13:50	KirinDave	I hope Rich will disclose how much he makes in a day from this campaign. ;)
13:54	qed	KirinDave: heh
14:09	headius	technomancy: ping
14:15	djork	if I spent as much on Clojure as my wife did on her hair rhickey would be better off
14:15	djork	or at least his wife could get her hair done
14:16	LauJensen	Is Matt of Conjure fame here tonight?
14:20	technomancy	headius: ICMP_ECHO_REPLY
14:20	headius	hi there!
14:21	headius	I was going to suggest we should bundle up a gem that's just clojure and release it
14:21	headius	so other gems could depend on that one
14:21	SergeyDidenko	Hi, could anyone advise the workaround for the absent "byte-array"? - (byte-array [1 2 3])
14:21	headius	I want to do a pass at wrapping the collections with some Ruby stuff
14:21	technomancy	headius: oh yeah, sure. I don't think my gem ever made it out to any servers outside github, so there shouldn't be any overlap issues.
14:21	headius	ok
14:21	SergeyDidenko	Is "make-array" + "aset" the only way?
14:22	cemerick	SergeyDidenko: (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])
14:22	technomancy	I never quite got that exception-wrapping problem solved for transaction retries.
14:22	cemerick	,(into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3])
14:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: argument type mismatch
14:22	cemerick	hrm
14:23	cemerick	yuck
14:23	cemerick	,(into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2 3])
14:23	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@1a8de42>
14:23	cemerick	,(into-array Byte/TYPE (map byte [1 2 3]))
14:23	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@2b9edc>
14:23	cemerick	SergeyDidenko: Looks like ^^ is the best you can get right now
14:24	chouser	,byte-array
14:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: byte-array in this context
14:25	SergeyDidenko	cemerick, strange it does not work on my computer. Probably I need to get the latest sources
14:25	hiredman	SergeyDidenko: that should work
14:25	hiredman	what exception are you seeing?
14:25	cemerick	,(into-array Integer/TYPE (map byte [1 2 3]))
14:25	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@1994498>
14:25	SergeyDidenko	cemerick, do you use the recent Clojure version ?
14:26	cemerick	SergeyDidenko: I'm generally on 1.1-new, although that should work fine even in 1.0 (I think)
14:27	SergeyDidenko	(into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3]) throws java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: argument type mismatch (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
14:27	lghtng	I started out wanting to just contribute a few sparql wrappers as a learning project and now im sitting here reading Marvin Minsky's "Semantic Information Processing" c.1968: Is there a word for that?
14:27	danm_	SergeyDidenko: missed the map byte part
14:27	chouser	1.1-alpha and 1.1-new should have byte-array now.
14:27	cemerick	ah, (into-array Byte/TYPE [1 2 3]) would work if a type.cast() call were made in RT.seqToTypedArray
14:27	SergeyDidenko	thank you guys :)
14:27	chouser	lghtng: enlightenment?
14:28	cemerick	although I suppose we wouldn't want the overhead
14:28	lghtng	works for me
14:34	KirinDave	I think I may have a functioning webapp using compojure. Whee.
14:34	KirinDave	What compojure needs, what every webapp framework needs, is a generator.
14:35	chouser	nonono
14:35	cemerick	ooh, this'll be fun :-)
14:35	KirinDave	?
14:35	Chousuke	generator? :/
14:35	lghtng	transformer
14:35	KirinDave	Like, lein new.
14:36	Chousuke	aha.
14:36	KirinDave	Something that does mundane shit like drop a shell script that can help target public and things like that.
14:36	Chousuke	write a lein plugin!
14:36	cemerick	KirinDave: don't mind me, I've just always enjoyed the dynamic vs. static site debate.
14:36	the-kenny	Should be easy to write a leiningen plugin for this :)
14:36	Chousuke	nein new-compojure :P
14:36	KirinDave	Sure.
14:36	Chousuke	lein* too
14:38	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/appengine-helper
14:41	the-kenny	Google should allow Threads for clojure :(
14:41	stuartsierra	My take on datatypes/protocols: http://stuartsierra.com/2009/12/14/objects-are-not-adts
14:44	KirinDave	Man, the power of SSDs
14:44	KirinDave	it takes less time to start my app in -server on my laptop than on this big server.
14:44	maacl	Does anyone know of any Crane usgae examples ?
14:54	jgracin	I see that add-classpath has been deprecated. Is there some new way of modifying classpath at runtime?
14:56	the-kenny	jgracin: IIRC, changing the classpath just causes problems, I wouldn't do it.
14:56	danm_	all I've read is that you can't
14:57	danm_	so if you want to change the classpath, restart clojure
14:57	the-kenny	danm_: There was add-classpath in clojure, but it just caused problems, so it's deprecated now.
14:57	danm_	yeah
14:57	danm_	it never seemed to work for me anyway
14:57	stuartsierra	It's a problem with how classpaths are usually implemented in Java.
14:58	stuartsierra	The root classpath is created when the JVM starts and cannot be changed.
14:59	hiredman	stuartsierra: would replacing the system classpath fix that?
14:59	hiredman	er
14:59	stuartsierra	hiredman: You can't replace the system classpath without hacking the JVM, I think.
14:59	hiredman	system classloader
14:59	stuartsierra	You can replace the system classloader I think.
14:59	hiredman	-Djava.system.class.path
14:59	stuartsierra	Yes. But that's real JVM voodoo right there.
15:00	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/255766
15:01	hiredman	danm_: I'd like to see people who had trouble with add-classpath try this out
15:01	rhickey	java.system.class.loader
15:01	stuartsierra	Like I said, voodoo.
15:01	hiredman	rhickey: right!
15:02	hiredman	rhickey: would that fix the visibility problems from add-classpath?
15:02	jgracin	I have a standalone application which needs to contact a configuration registry system and find out which plugins to load.
15:02	rhickey	I think it would be generally useful for someone to make a solution based upon that, just for development
15:02	rhickey	the big problem is that people will build runtime dependencies on it, and that can't be satisfied in all runtime environments
15:03	hiredman	:\| like the above mentioned plugin system
15:03	rhickey	hiredman: yes, it would not have those problems, but it can't be used in all situations, i.e. when you don't control startup
15:03	hiredman	right
15:04	hiredman	I was thinking along the lines of lien
15:04	hiredman	lein?
15:04	stuartsierra	See? No one can spell it!
15:04	hiredman	:P
15:05	lghtng	tangential question: can the classpath be modified via emacs/slime?
15:05	hiredman	anyway, that gist above generates a cl.jar (that contains a classloader class) and prints out (cryptic) usage instructions
15:05	stuartsierra	lghtng: no, same problem
15:08	fanatico	,seen technomancy
15:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: seen in this context
15:08	lghtng	.seen technomancy
15:08	hiredman	clojurebot: seen technomancy?
15:08	clojurebot	technomancy was last seen quiting IRC, 18 minutes ago
15:09	fanatico	thanks.
15:11	qed	Just sent my relatives an email asking they donate to clojure instead of buying me presents or gift certificates.
15:11	qed	Hopefully they haven't gotten me anything yet. :)
15:15	lghtng	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Classpath
15:16	hiredman	:\|
15:22	maddis	qed, that is a really good idea! don't think my parents/relatives understand that, but it's worth a try :)
15:23	qed	my mom wont have a clue, but my dad actually asked me if clojure was like dylan
15:23	qed	i was pretty surprised he knew about dylan :)
15:24	the-kenny	qed: Bob Dylan? :P
15:24	qed	haha
15:24	qed	nah, you know, the programming language
15:25	qed	he's an old mac nerd, worked w/ Kai Krause and Eric Wenger once upon a time
15:25	maddis	i thought of Dylan from 90210, the tv series ;P
15:25	qed	hahaha
15:26	the-kenny	My father asks me every two days if and how he can copy a folder into another folder.
15:26	qed	do you tell him `cp -R`
15:26	qed	as in "you'll need `cp -R` if you ask me that again"
15:26	the-kenny	...he is using windows
15:26	qed	get him on ubuntu and show him how to google
15:27	the-kenny	I told him if he want me to keep supporting him with computer related things, he should either buy a mac or let me install linux.
15:27	qed	i really think that there needs to be some google instruction for people
15:27	the-kenny	We agreed to do this when his current laptop dies
15:27	qed	nice
15:27	the-kenny	(Which should happen in the next months :))
15:28	the-kenny	He's also using an old pc with a pentium 2 in his office
15:28	the-kenny	windows 2000
15:33	qed	That is..old
15:33	the-kenny	Yes
15:33	qed	There are still some machines we support that run Win2k unfortunately
15:34	the-kenny	and full of viruses ;)
15:34	the-kenny	It's time to replace it.
15:39	the-kenny	I had a dream last night about a cool project in clojure and something with tagsoup.... But I forgot what it was :(
15:50	lghtng	would be interesting to see clojure running inside jnode or looking glass
15:50	lghtng	or as an appliance in jnode
15:51	hiredman	maxine!
15:51	hiredman	guestos vm!
15:51	qed	looking glass?
15:52	qed	is that a way to view router configs?
15:53	lghtng	http://research.sun.com/projects/maxine/max.html
15:53	lghtng	lg3d has been pronounced dead by its founder
15:54	lghtng	the deb repositories dont work but there is still an .iso built on pclinuxos
15:57	lisppaste8	the-kenny pasted "lein deps problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92100
15:57	the-kenny	Can someone tell me where's the problem there?
15:58	hiredman	stuff got renamed a few days ago yadda yadda yadda
15:58	qed	someone was talking about this the other day
15:58	qed	yeah
15:58	qed	i think chouser is the guy who renamed some stuff
15:58	cemerick	darn that chouser :-P
15:58	qed	the-kenny: your best bet is to just download them and put them in ~/.m2
15:59	hiredman	clojurebot: rename?
15:59	clojurebot	Huh?
15:59	hiredman	clojurebot: rename is <reply>clojure-alpha was renamed clojure-master, and this broke most of the projects on Clojars
15:59	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:00	qed	clojurebot: rename?
16:00	clojurebot	clojure-alpha was renamed clojure-master, and this broke most of the projects on Clojars
16:00	qed	clojurebot: @markov chouser
16:00	clojurebot	Who??
16:00	qed	heh, worth a shot...
16:02	the-kenny	hm.. how long will it take clojars to normalize again?
16:03	hiredman	I imagine it is up to the projects to update their config and push
16:04	the-kenny	Yeah, got that.. maybe someone should write about this in the mailing list?
16:05	hiredman	has been
16:05	hiredman	like a week ago, or something, when the rename came up
16:06	the-kenny	So [org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0-master-SNAPSHOT"] is the right thing to include in project.clj now?
16:06	hiredman	I suppose
16:10	the-kenny	_ato: Is that your compojure-jar on clojars?
16:17	qed	with file-seq, I get a coll of Files, im trying to break them up into a structure like xml
16:20	Intertricity	Is there a clojure equivalent to python's pickle?
16:22	maravillas	c.c.duck-streams/spit and /slurp maybe?
16:22	stuartsierra	No.
16:23	arohner	pr is closer, but still not comprehensive
16:23	stuartsierra	Intertricity: read/pr gets you 9/10 of the way there
16:23	Intertricity	stuartsierra, ahh thanks :)
16:24	qed	No matching method found: parse for class com.sun.org.apache.xerces.internal.jaxp.SAXParserImpl
16:26	hiredman	qed: read the docs on parse and pass it one of the specified classes
16:28	drewr	chouser: I'm happy to fix that *-seq issue
16:29	drewr	the buggy patch is from me :-/
16:33	qed	hiredman: I have something like (file-seq (java.io.File. "/path/to/dir")) -- parse looks like it takes Files, so why can't I parse that?
16:33	hiredman	,(doc clojure.xml/parse)
16:33	clojurebot	"([s] [s startparse]); Parses and loads the source s, which can be a File, InputStream or String naming a URI. Returns a tree of the xml/element struct-map, which has the keys :tag, :attrs, and :content. and accessor fns tag, attrs, and content. Other parsers can be supplied by passing startparse, a fn taking a source and a ContentHandler and returning a parser"
16:34	hiredman	,(doc file-seq)
16:34	clojurebot	"([dir]); A tree seq on java.io.Files"
16:34	qed	how would i turn what I have into an InputStream?
16:34	hiredman	hmmm
16:34	hiredman	~def file-seq
16:35	lghtng	,(doc element)
16:35	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:35	qed	how could I turn it into an InputStream?
16:35	lghtng	,(doc :tag)
16:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
16:35	lghtng	right
16:35	lghtng	,(doc InputStream)
16:35	hiredman	what does the output of file-seq look like?
16:35	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:36	qed	(#<File /Users/defn/foo> #<File /Users/defn/foo/bar> #<File /Users/defn/foo/bar/bar.txt> #<File /Users/defn/foo/baz> #<File /Users/defn/foo/baz/baz.txt> #<File /Users/defn/foo/foo.txt>)
16:36	lghtng	,(doc startparse)
16:36	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:36	qed	(doc clojure.xml/startparse)
16:36	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:37	lghtng	,(doc clojure.xml/startparse)
16:37	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:37	qed	(doc clojure.xml/startparse-sax)
16:37	clojurebot	"([s ch]); "
16:37	hiredman	and how are you calling parse?
16:37	lghtng	,(doc ddt)
16:37	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:37	hiredman	lghtng: knock it off
16:37	lghtng	eep
16:38	qed	hiredman: i tried to just run (parse (file-seq...)), also tried to map it to see if that worked but got an exception about content and prolog
16:40	hiredman	a. file-seq does not return one of the types mentioned by xml/parse b. the other error most likely means you don't have a well formed xml file (the default parser is a stickler)
16:40	hiredman	ignoring exceptions like that is a bad habit to get into
16:40	hiredman	just the fact that you are getting a different exception is useful information
16:41	qed	i guess my question is, can i turn that file-seq output into an inputstream
16:41	hiredman	it won't matter if your xml is not well formed
16:41	hiredman	which is most likely what that exception was trying to tell you
16:41	qed	ah, okay -- ill mess with it and try to figure out what's up with it
16:45	lghtng	does clojure do natural inheritance? like native OO?
16:45	Chousuke	Clojure is not very object-oriented.
16:46	lghtng	or does it rely on backdoor methods like CLOS did?
16:46	Chousuke	backdoor?
16:46	Chousuke	I'm not sure what you mean.
16:46	lghtng	we've got object orientation, only its all extentions
16:47	lghtng	so inheritance is something you build, not included
16:47	Chousuke	the closest to a native OO construct in Clojure (not interop) would be defprotocol and deftype I guess.
16:47	the-kenny	_ato: ping
16:47	Chousuke	but even those emphasise decoupling objects from methods
16:47	chouser	also 'derive' and multimethods
16:48	hiredman	dispatch hierarchies are reified
16:48	lghtng	i know it can do all those things and alot more, im just wondering how much has already been done
16:48	chouser	multimethod dispatch has type inheritence built in.
16:49	lghtng	since this is all library building stuff going on here, there is a SHITLOAD of undocumented stuff thats available but unlisted
16:49	hiredman	not true
16:49	hiredman	clojure.org
16:49	lghtng	we dont want any unnecessary duplication, right?
16:49	Chousuke	I'm not sure what you mean.
16:49	Chousuke	What are you looking for, exactly?
16:50	lghtng	just knowledge
16:50	hiredman	lghtng: I would avoid righting a oop library for clojure
16:50	hiredman	I doubt anyone will use it
16:50	lghtng	i have no plan to, im just interested in the state of it's emergence
16:51	lghtng	as it will emerge, just at what rate and how dominant it will be
16:51	chouser	what feature are you looking for that such a library would provide?
16:51	lghtng	its funny about that
16:51	Chousuke	I mean, if you really want to do the "traditional" kind of OOP, maybe Clojure isn't the best language. However, many things you would do using OOP in other languages are perfectly doable using non-OOP methods in Clojure.
16:51	lghtng	nothing in particular
16:51	lghtng	not me, in general
16:51	hiredman	there is at least one oop library that has already been abandoned
16:52	hiredman	~rationale
16:52	clojurebot	rationale is http://clojure.org/rationale
16:52	Chousuke	OOP in clojure that is not completely whacked is essentially equivalent to having functions that take some "special" value as their first argument, anyway.
16:53	hiredman	"for Functional Programming"
16:53	hiredman	clojurebot: oo?
16:53	clojurebot	OO is to programming what astrology is to astronomy
16:53	Chousuke	heh :P
16:53	hiredman	clojurebot: why oo sucks?
16:53	Chousuke	but I think protocols and deftype will satisfy most people's "OO" needs.
16:53	clojurebot	OO is to programming what astrology is to astronomy
16:53	lghtng	i've recommended clojure to developers as an alternative to java, so far the answers have ranged from 'what about side effects' to 'what about side effects'
16:53	hiredman	clojurebot: why oo sucks is <reply>http://www.sics.se/~joe/bluetail/vol1/v1_oo.html
16:53	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:54	hiredman	lghtng: you mean the questions
16:54	lghtng	'ignore side effects at your peril' seems to be the moral that java programmers are offering
16:54	dnolen	lghtng: it might be helpful to look at some of the long threads discussing this stuff on the mailing list, there a couple actually.
16:54	Chousuke	lghtng: Clojure is not purely functional, so just write side-effecting functions.
16:54	drewr	does Sean Devlin hang out on here?
16:55	chouser	drewr: at times
16:55	lghtng	i should see if the guy will come here to speak with you himself
16:55	dnolen	lghtng: also don't understand the "what about side effects"? Clojure is firmly in the anti-side effects camp.
16:55	chouser	Did someone recommend ignoring side-effects? seems unlikely
16:55	hiredman	dnolen: but not purely functional
16:56	Chousuke	lghtng: clojure even provides time constructs for managing a real process (which has side-effects, in the form of changing state). :)
16:56	dnolen	hiredman: yes, of course.
16:57	lghtng	state transactional memory, right?
16:57	lghtng	and if you want side effects you use 'do'
16:57	chouser	it's not nearly that magical
16:57	Chousuke	lghtng: software transactional memory
16:58	lghtng	ah, that
16:58	hiredman	lghtng: you don't have to use do
16:58	Chousuke	lghtng: it's just a bunch of mutable reference types with well-defined concurrency semantics.
16:58	hiredman	clojure seemlessly calls java
16:58	hiredman	java is full of side effects
17:00	lghtng	a side effect is basically just something a function does that isnt part of its return value but affects something outside it's scope?
17:00	Chousuke	I guess so.
17:00	Chousuke	That's probably not a rigorous definition, but anyway :P
17:01	lghtng	it turns the knob 1 quarter turn to the right, igniting the flame on the burner
17:02	lghtng	it places the teapot onto the burner
17:02	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_effect_%28computer_science%29
17:02	Chousuke	lghtng: rather, it activates the machinery that does those thins :)
17:02	Chousuke	things*
17:02	chouser	the future is a function of the past
17:02	hiredman	lghtng: if your world is map, then a function can return an updated map with the new position of the teapot
17:03	chouser	history is its domain
17:03	Chousuke	hiredman: but you also need a side-effecting procedure to activate the machinery.
17:03	chouser	right, it depends on if you're simulating the world or actually interacting with it.
17:03	Chousuke	hiredman: but as long as you isolate the side-effecting procedure from the "pure" world-map model, you're golden.
17:05	hiredman	Chousuke: he never mentioned machinery, so to assume he isn't just doing world modeling is a mistake
17:05	Chousuke	I'm pretty sure the pure model always exists, too, since software of course needs some values to work with. :)
17:07	hiredman	anyway, clojure is targeted squarly at java, and as such can do anything java can do (except annotations, at this point)
17:11	Chousuke	I guess in automation terms, the "pure model" would be your transfer functions, and the things that integrate them with the real world are the DA or AD transformers.
17:12	Chousuke	and the clojure stm models the fact that inputs are functions of t.
17:13	Chousuke	(hey, at least it's not a car analogy)
17:13	lghtng	which fits nicely with the concept that the program is the data
17:15	lghtng	that clojure goes ahead and takes the next step of collapsing alot of byzantine verbiage is really helpful in learninr
17:15	lghtng	it should be the exception that proves the rule, not the rules that prove the exception
17:17	lghtng	that the author has to explicetly take alot of time in the videos to explain, well, this is a that and that is a this and they are pretty much the same thing and frankly irrelevant shows that there are so Original Ideas(tm) operating here, which is really cool and innovative-like
17:20	Chousuke	If you dig deep enough, I'm sure few of the ideas in Clojure are truly original
17:20	Chousuke	but it's the combination of them that makes it interesting :)
17:22	lghtng	sometime we all need to learn to ignore that missile-radar warning in our ears and go ahead and accept a new paradigm with grace
17:23	lghtng	we are not all equally blessed in that regard, so it's fortunate for me that clojure appears to embrace that spirit
17:23	lghtng	maybe i can finally learn how to program :D
17:24	Chousuke	You don't have to forget the old paradigms either. But chances are that once you learn new things, you realise that you should forget some things you learned previously
17:25	Chousuke	Like when learning about complex numbers... Addition and substraction still work pretty intuitively, but what, you suddenly can calculate the square root of a negative number? shocking!
17:26	lghtng	what previous knowledge must be forgotten there?
17:27	lghtng	perhaps you mean the example of 1C+1C=1C where C=light-speed?
17:29	Chousuke	hm, I haven't seen that example.
17:32	Chousuke	but you might have learnt that it's not possible to take the square root of a negative number, and complex numbers give you a way to meaningfully do that, opening up new possibilities. Then, when you examine the properties of complex numbers, many assumptions you previously had about numbers will likely need to be revised :)
17:32	lghtng	granted.
17:47	hiredman	clojurebot: big o?
17:47	clojurebot	Huh?
17:47	hiredman	clojurebot: big o is <reply>http://twitter.com/cgoldberg/status/6340157473
17:47	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
17:58	qed	hiredman: haha
18:00	ohpauleez	haha, that's awesome
18:02	arohner	does defmacro support let-destructuring its arguments?
18:02	hiredman	yes
18:03	arohner	thanks
18:04	maddis	i am using this (http://wiki.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/emacs-integration) method from technomancy to connect to a remote repl. is there any way to open only a local port on the server side and tunnel everything through ssh? I am not very comfortable with opening my repl to everybody on the internet.
18:04	arohner	ssh -L localport:localhost:remote-repl-port user@remote
18:05	ohpauleez	that way or socat
18:06	arohner	that will connect to the remote box, and tunnel traffic from localhost:remote-repl port to localport on your box
18:06	maddis	ok, that's a ssh tunnel. but isn't the port on the server side still open to everyone?
18:06	arohner	no
18:06	maddis	with open I mean, everybody could connect?
18:06	arohner	it tunnels traffic from localhost:remote-repl-port to localport on your box
18:07	arohner	anyone on your box can connect to localport
18:07	arohner	if your firewall is set up properly, the repl port is closed to outsiders
18:08	arohner	then you ssh in via the SSH port, and tunnel is created on your side. the only remotely accessible open ports are 1) ssh on the remote box, 2) localport on your box. I assume the firewall on your local box is set up properly :-)
18:08	maddis	you mean the firewall on the server side? that is not the case here...that's why I ask this question :)
18:09	maddis	hmm, ok
18:09	maddis	i guess I have to thing about this again :)
18:09	arohner	this will work, even if your box allows no open connections, and the remote box only allows SSH connections
18:09	esbena	installing clojure-mode (using ELPA) results in: 'clojure-slime-config: Cannot open load file: swank-clojure-autoload' - known problem?
18:09	esbena
18:11	hiredman	I think you have to pass an argument to ssh to let connections not originating from localhost traverse the tunnel
18:14	mabes	is the fn rest lazy? I have a lazy collection which I want to map all of the elements except the first one...
18:15	arohner	mabes: rest will evaluate the first item, and not evaluate the rest of the list
18:15	mabes	arohner: ok, great, thanks
18:18	polypus	how to get a function's arity?
18:19	the-kenny	polypus: (:arglists (meta (var +)))
18:19	the-kenny	,(:arglists (meta (var +)))
18:19	clojurebot	([] [x] [x y] [x y & more])
18:20	polypus	ty, is this also for user defined functions? i thought not
18:21	the-kenny	Works with user-defined funcions too.
18:21	technomancy	esbena: yep; it's been deprecated. see the readme for swank-clojure.
18:21	maddis	arohner, i think you got me wrong. i am talking about the port 4005 opened by the swank server on the server side. when I start the server with 'lein swank', one could connect to that port simply with slime-connect in emacs
18:21	the-kenny	But you have to know the symbol, as far as I know, there is no way to get the arity of functions itself.
18:22	arohner	maddis: yes, swank-server will open port 4005 on the server side. If you don't want that to be accessible to anyone, firewall it off. Block everything on the box except port 22
18:22	polypus	the-kenny: right its metadata on the var really
18:23	arohner	maddis: the ssh command I wrote above will open a port 4006 on your box, which all traffic on your side will go through ssh to the remote box, and then to localhost:4005, from the perspective of the remote box
18:23	maddis	ok, so there is no option to let it accept only local connections. thanks :) will block it through the firewall
18:23	maddis	arohner, yes, I got the ssh part.
18:24	maddis	my issue was only the open port 4005 on thr server side. that's all
18:24	polypus	,(:arglists (meta (fn [x] x)))
18:24	clojurebot	nil
18:25	hiredman	the arglist metadata is not on the function, but on the var
18:25	the-kenny	polypus: Functions don't have metadata. Only the vars
18:25	the-kenny	That's what I was trying to say
18:25	the-kenny	Sorry, English isn't my native language.
18:26	arohner	maddis: I haven't heard of an option to make swank only listen on localhost. It might be possible
18:26	technomancy	maddis: it should be added in swank-clojure, but it doesn't exist yet afaict.
18:26	arohner	I'm sure the patch would be easy
18:28	maddis	i was just wondering because I read this page http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-the-lisp-image.html#Setting-up-the-lisp-image
18:28	maddis	see footnote 2
18:28	hiredman	snort
18:29	polypus	is that a thread local snort?
18:30	the-kenny	,snort
18:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: snort in this context
18:51	jeremyevans	Is there a Clojure function similar to Ruby/Perl/Python pack/unpack, such that (unpack "V" "\0\1\0\0") returns 256
18:52	jeremyevans	Or any other facility to pack/unpack integers to/from strings?
18:52	djork	no but it sounds like fun to write
18:53	djork	seems like a clojurey kind thing to have
18:53	djork	http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=211105
18:53	jeremyevans	djork: Thanks. Shouldn't be difficult, just didn't want to recreate the wheel
18:54	hiredman	,(Integer/parseInt "0100" 16)
18:54	clojurebot	256
18:54	jeremyevans	hiredman: That's "0100", not "\0\1\0
18:54	jeremyevans	0"
18:55	hiredman	I understand, but what is the poing of the slashes to begin with?
18:55	hiredman	,(Integer/toString 256 16)
18:55	clojurebot	"100"
18:55	jeremyevans	hiredman: "\0" is ascii 0x0, "0" is ascii 0x30
18:56	jeremyevans	hiredman: "0100" and "\0\1\0\0" are two very different things
18:57	jeremyevans	,(= "\0" "0")
18:57	clojurebot	false
18:58	hiredman	ping?
18:58	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
18:58	hiredman	nuts
18:58	clojurebot	PONG!
18:58	clojurebot	PONG!
18:59	hiredman	clojurebot: why?
18:59	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
19:14	fawxtin	anyone running swank-clojure, doing a remote REPL with lastest slime?
19:15	dnolen	fawxtin: I'm not sure that you can use latest slime, there were some breaking changes a while back.
19:16	Raynes	I really wish they would change the name.
19:17	Raynes	You can't tell someone you're running Slime without extra explanation.
19:17	fawxtin	dnolen: oh, I see, it seens to work with old versions (using the simple swank.swank/start-server ...)
19:18	fawxtin	but now when I eval "list" expression (with parenthesis), it hangs up
19:19	dnolen	fawxtin: I use slime from the git mirror, I note that I'm on commit 74a4b66bf85f55e878df2974ab3d713f87c1a42f.
19:19	fawxtin	dnolen: nice!
19:19	fawxtin	let me see
19:20	dnolen	git mirror -> github mirror
19:20	fawxtin	yeah, sure
19:27	Raynes	dnolen: I've seen some of your SO posts. Nice ones. ,3
19:27	Raynes	<3*
19:28	dnolen	Raynes: SO posts?
19:30	fawxtin	dnolen: worked really fine, thanks
19:30	dnolen	fawxtin: great!
19:31	Raynes	dnolen: Stackoverflow
19:31	dnolen	fawxtin: there was some effort to try to keep the slime devs from breaking Clojure support, hopefully something comes of it. It was really great for a year or so.
19:31	dnolen	Raynes: oh yes, thx.
19:35	fawxtin	dnolen: I see, it must be hard as hell to keep sync on everything
19:35	fawxtin	for slime devs
19:43	fawxtin	or not.. dnolen, that commit seens to be one of the lastest (if not the) to work
19:44	dnolen	fawxtin: yes, I used to always stay at slime tip, I believe it's only a 2 or 3 commits before it broke at most.
19:48	tomoj	what's the breakage look like?
19:49	fawxtin	the eval hangs up
19:50	fawxtin	Im brute forcing to see what commit broke it
19:50	fawxtin	eval I mean repl
19:53	fawxtin	found the bad guy: 22dba9f590a55977f41cb9a333012e9cb6619505
19:54	_ato	WTF? https://gist.github.com/ffc64fc2a18382dbfaf6
19:54	_ato	using a non-direct buffer and looping over the underlying array with aget is also slower than the infinite loop with a underflow catch
19:54	_ato	NIO is weird
19:58	_ato	and it's not that (.remaining) is O(n), even if I call it above the loop it still doesn't slow down the second one
19:59	_ato	maybe the JIT does more magical inlining in the second case or something
20:00	alexyk	I want to parse twits like "hey @man there's a #clojure blog at http://bot.ly/xyz" into: @names, #hashtags, URLs, and remaining words. Questions: how do folks tag token types, and is there a library to simplify this?
20:00	dnolen	_ato: you going to publish your blog post soon, or are you still fine tuning wf2-optimized? :)
20:04	alexyk	I I mean I can boringly scan and add characters to a StringBuilder... should I then place into a map, {:token blah :kind :url } or something?
20:05	alexyk	is this how algebraic types are simulated? :)
20:06	_ato	dnolen: still fine tuning my extremely optimised version. I had an idea that might make it (shock!) competitive with C++, but NIO is proving troublesome. It can be really fast in certain cases, but it seems to be really easy to slow it down, like that weird example I just posted
20:06	dysinger	rhickey: are around ?
20:07	dnolen	_ato: wow, head to head with C++. I'm impressed you got it close to Ocaml, that's a feat. Those are respectable numbers already.
20:47	arohner	is there a way to specify that a #() should take any number of arguments, but only use the first one?
20:48	arohner	I have a #(foo %1) that is unhappy about being called with more than one argument
20:49	timothypratley	(fn [x & ignore] ...) :)
20:50	arohner	timothypratley: yeah ;-), I was hoping for a #() form
21:25	harrison	,(floats (into-array [1 2 3]))
21:26	aldebrn	I need to do FFTs in Clojure (really need to :D), are there any gold-standard Java FFT libraries? or wrappers to FFTW?
21:34	harrison	,(floats (into-array [1 2 3]))
21:34	harrison	clojurebot seems to be slacking
21:39	tomoj	clojurebot: botsnack
21:46	harrison	is there any way to make a float array from clojure? (not a Float array. i'm using java.nio.FloatBuffer, and it wants a float array)
21:46	chouser	(floats (float-array [1 2 3]))
21:47	chouser	you don't need 'floats'
21:47	tomoj	huh, how long has floats been there?
21:47	tomoj	and ints, never noticed them
21:48	chouser	if your version of Clojure doesn't have float-array, you can use (into-array Float/TYPE [1 2 3])
21:49	harrison	chouser: excellent. float-array was all it needed. i wasn't aware that existed. also, floats is redundant there.
21:50	liebke	aldebrn: I've never used it, but checkout jtransforms (which is included in the Incanter distribution): http://sites.google.com/site/piotrwendykier/software/jtransforms
21:57	chouser	tomoj: a while now. booleans, bytes, chars and shorts are newer.
22:02	hamza	guys, i don't know if this is one of those FAQ questions but why does
22:02	hamza	, (seq? [1 2 3])
22:02	hamza	equals false?
22:03	laughingboy	Newbie Q: Is it possible to change the current working dir used by load-file?
22:03	tomoj	hamza: vectors aren't seqs
22:03	harrison	these nio buffers are a pain in the ass.
22:03	tomoj	,(seq? (seq [1 2 3]))
22:04	tomoj	clojurebot would say "true" if she were not dead
22:04	hamza	tomoj: is there a pred for testing vectos?
22:04	hamza	he he
22:04	hamza	*vectors
22:04	hamza	or should i use (seq? (seq ..))
22:05	tomoj	well, there's vector?
22:05	tomoj	but is that what you really want to know? that what you were given was a vector?
22:05	clojurebot	false
22:05	clojurebot	true
22:06	tomoj	oh hello there clojurebot
22:06	hamza	lol, i assumed it vas vec? i am iterating a vector using recursion i want to use this for stopping contition
22:06	tomoj	then, no, I don't think you're looking for vector?
22:06	laughingboy	Newbie Q: Is it possible to change the current working dir used by load-file?
22:07	tomoj	well, what will the value be when you want to stop?
22:08	hamza	i am going rest rest so i can use nil? then right?
22:08	tomoj	if you're using rest, you're not getting a vector anyway
22:08	tomoj	,(vector? (rest [1 2 3]))
22:08	clojurebot	false
22:08	tomoj	unless I misunderstand you
22:09	hamza	laughingboy: (System/setProperty "user.dir" "mydirectoryPath") works in java but i never used it in clojure.
22:09	hamza	ohh ok there is my mistake..
22:09	tomoj	if you're using rest, you're getting seqs
22:09	laughingboy	hamza: thx, I will try
22:10	tomoj	the idiomatic stopping condition is (if (seq ...) ...)
22:10	hamza	ok so seq? then should work so i got another logic problem.
22:10	tomoj	if you use next instead you will get nil when you're done
22:11	hamza	ok thanks..
22:11	tomoj	might be better to use seq anyway, depends I guess
22:42	interferon	does clojure have support for annotations?
22:42	arohner	interferon: no
22:47	interferon	are there ways to work around that?
22:49	arohner	not that I know of
22:54	KirinDave1	Is there a way to react to a ref or atom changing?
22:54	arohner	,(doc add-watcher)
22:55	arohner	oh, no clojurebot
22:55	arohner	anyways, add-watch and add-watcher
23:04	drewr	any slime users have issues with namespaces not being recognized when there's metadata present?