#clojure – 2009-11-24

2009-11-24

00:00	KirinDave1	I'm trying to, as a way to get a handle on compojure
00:00	KirinDave1	write a little program to track our foosball scores.
00:01	KirinDave1	I'm writing things like make-player, make-game, add-player, add-game.
00:02	KirinDave1	https://gist.github.com/3d800d9dfc8c437e548d
00:02	KirinDave1	Is there a more elegant way to do this stuff?
00:02	KirinDave1	Am I doing something that is already being done for me?
00:04	cark	well, using struct directly does the job, or better yet struct-map
00:04	cark	though in the long run it's good to have functions abstracting this
00:04	KirinDave1	It seems like that'd be tedious is client code
00:04	KirinDave1	Yeah
00:04	technomancy	structs are generally used as perf operations when you've profiled to find out that just plain maps aren't fast enough.
00:04	technomancy	s/operations/optimizations/
00:05	KirinDave1	technomancy: I'm mostly using them as a way of documenting the keys I expect.
00:05	cark	the one thing i don't like in your code : instead of having that many refs, you need a single one
00:05	cark	make a single database ref
00:05	cark	this will also be better for you to learn clojure
00:05	KirinDave1	cark: I've thought about that, but wouldn't I also want the internal refs?
00:05	KirinDave1	For the player history?
00:06	technomancy	KirinDave1: that works, but it generally ends up being more verbose.
00:06	KirinDave1	There seems to be no reason to lock the entire DB if I want to update a single player.
00:06	cark	nope
00:06	_ato	cark: if you're going to have a single database ref, it may as well be an atom
00:06	KirinDave1	Right.
00:06	technomancy	KirinDave1: also: if you're not doing anything in a dosync except commuting, consider atoms
00:06	cark	KirinDave : you will mostly be reading, writing only happens once a game is played
00:06	technomancy	since you're not really taking advantage of the ACI properties of transactions
00:06	KirinDave1	technomancy: I will be doing alters for other stuff.
00:06	technomancy	KirinDave1: I mean if you're only doing a single write per transaction
00:07	_ato	presumably there will cases later on where you want to atomically change team's wins as well the games or history together
00:07	KirinDave1	Yeah
00:07	cark	_ato : right, but what if you add more stuff later and need to coordinate ?
00:07	KirinDave1	The stuff that involves adding a game and then updating the history, and the ladder, will involve multiple changes in a single transation
00:08	technomancy	that's true; I guess you are planning ahead for stuff that isn't there yet
00:08	KirinDave1	Yes
00:08	arohner	why do you guys advocate a single ref? I've always thought of using a ref for each thing with identity that can change
00:08	cark	that's a trade-off, this database is small, it doesn't need such granualirty
00:08	arohner	and IMO smaller refs are easier to manipulate than reaching N levels into a tree structure to alter one node
00:08	cark	granularity
00:09	cark	not at all, using clojure it's easy to reach deep
00:09	arohner	it's still more work than not reaching deep
00:10	cark	allright, what if you suddenly need to keep track of some other games, say fifa for instance
00:10	KirinDave1	Well I'd probably abstract a top level databse.
00:10	KirinDave1	But I wouldn't make that a ref, i don't think.
00:10	KirinDave1	That structure would be immutable, it'd have keys
00:10	cark	so you need to go back in your code and change it all
00:10	KirinDave1	Its key's values would be mutable.
00:10	arohner	not at all
00:11	KirinDave1	I suppose. I was thinking maybe a database binding.
00:11	arohner	take this current code, add another ref on top of it, for the "league"
00:11	arohner	the league ref points at a set of games
00:12	KirinDave1	Well I'd have to refactor those direct refs. :)
00:12	KirinDave1	players, teams, games, etc
00:12	technomancy	KirinDave1: the only other thing I'd note is that when you have multiple arg lists, it's more common to have the fewer-arg versions call the more-arg versions, filling in the missing args.
00:12	_ato	cark: there's no point in Clojure's STM if you're just using a single top-level database ref. You're not taking advantage of concurrency. While it's true this is a simple app so it doesn't need concurrency I think KirinDave1 is using it as an excercise to learn about Clojure's features
00:12	technomancy	minor point, but it ends up being a little more dry
00:13	KirinDave1	technomancy: Good point.
00:13	cark	ato : in a real life program you'll have more than this single database
00:13	KirinDave1	cark: wouldn't I just make the database anargument in the functions?
00:13	cark	each time you use a ref, you loose the nice characteristics of purely functional programing
00:13	KirinDave1	instead of a top ref?
00:14	cark	KirinDave : yes, that's even better
00:14	cark	but at some point you need a ref or an atom to hold the identity of your state
00:14	KirinDave1	cark: Right, well I may go back to that.
00:14	KirinDave1	That should be in client code tho.
00:14	KirinDave1	Not this lib.
00:14	KirinDave1	I should ahve a make-league function that drops a league out that you could keep.
00:15	cark	well you must stop at some point
00:15	KirinDave1	I will in my compojure client code
00:15	cark	what about adding planet mars leagues ?
00:15	KirinDave1	probably an atom
00:15	KirinDave1	I was considering using a binding-able variable instead of a calling argument
00:15	KirinDave1	Is that a shitty idea?
00:15	KirinDave1	I see people use bindable vars all the time in contrib, but I hear a lot of grumbling about it here.
00:16	cark	well no it's not a bad idea, arguments are more readily readable tho
00:16	hiredman	grumble grumble
00:16	cark	this var binding stuff is good when there are many arguments that almost never change
00:16	technomancy	KirinDave1: you run into trouble when you create a lazy seq within binding that gets consumed outside the binding form
00:17	cark	like the print-blahblah vars for instance
00:17	_ato	the other problem with bindables is if you want to deal with two leagues in the same function you end up having to (with-league l1 ...) (with-legaue l2 ...) around every call anyway
00:17	cark	ahyes and one last recommendation : those toplevel vars should be named like this : player teams
00:18	cark	that's a convention people use
00:21	KirinDave1	cark: I though that was a convention for things that would be bound, but sure.
00:24	cark	you'll run into another problem
00:25	cark	you have players in teams and in players
00:25	KirinDave1	?
00:25	KirinDave1	What's the problem with that?
00:25	KirinDave1	The players are a set and I intend to only use players from the players set
00:25	cark	so if you change a player, you need to update both its team and the players database
00:26	cark	so that's where you might want to make refs of those players
00:26	KirinDave1	Does identity propagate through refs?
00:26	KirinDave1	Seems like sets would get very irritated at that. :)
00:27	_ato	,#{(ref 1) (ref 1)}
00:27	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@d41010: 1>}
00:27	KirinDave1	Wow, that's neat.
00:27	_ato	that's... weird
00:27	KirinDave1	I mean, the thing is.
00:27	_ato	I wonder what happens then if you change one of them
00:27	KirinDave1	Yeah
00:27	cark	well when you populate a player struct, you get a _value_
00:27	KirinDave1	that's just what I was wondering
00:27	cark	when you put this value in a ref, you get identity
00:28	cark	ato : yes that's very weird =/
00:28	cark	and i wouldn't rely on that
00:29	arohner	that seems like a bug
00:29	arohner	,(ref 1)
00:29	clojurebot	#<Ref@e4bf0e: 1>
00:29	arohner	,(ref 1)
00:29	clojurebot	#<Ref@b2d6bd: 1>
00:30	_ato	,(let [s #{(ref 1) (ref 2)}] (dosync (ref-set (first s) 2)) s)
00:30	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@86c645: 2> #<Ref@e9ff86: 1>}
00:30	_ato	,(let [s #{(ref 1) (ref 2)}] (dosync (ref-set (first s) 1)) s)
00:30	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@596d65: 1> #<Ref@11d1bb6: 2>}
00:30	cark	KirinDave : or you could make your player database a map, and store the key in other places
00:31	KirinDave1	So players mapped by name, you suggest?
00:31	_ato	,(let [s #{(ref 1) (ref 2)}] (dosync (doseq [r s] (ref-set r 1))) s)
00:31	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@ed4107: 1> #<Ref@39e50f: 1>}
00:31	cark	if you're sure these are unique =)
00:31	KirinDave1	I suppose.
00:31	_ato	,(set (let [s #{(ref 1) (ref 2)}] (dosync (doseq [r s] (ref-set r 1))) s))
00:31	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@e32bd0: 1> #<Ref@516c52: 1>}
00:31	KirinDave1	The only part of a player that can change is its history, tho
00:31	KirinDave1	And that's what's ref'd and shared throughout all the databases.
00:31	_ato	,[(ref 1) (ref 1)]
00:31	clojurebot	[#<Ref@1bda30a: 1> #<Ref@11b0d65: 1>]
00:31	KirinDave1	So long as I make sure to populate teams with entries from players
00:31	_ato	:\
00:32	arohner	_ato: that's weird
00:32	KirinDave1	Yeah I'm not sure that's so awesome
00:33	cark	well try it, you'll see a bug where you have the old value still in team once you updated the player in players
00:33	_ato	,(apply hash-set (let [s #{(ref 1) (ref 2)}] (dosync (doseq [r s] (ref-set r 1))) s))
00:33	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@759e62: 1> #<Ref@1f16253: 1>}
00:33	_ato	,#{(ref 1) (ref 1)}
00:33	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@1436fa7: 1>}
00:33	_ato	,(hash-set (ref 1) (ref 1))
00:33	clojurebot	#{#<Ref@5b4583: 1> #<Ref@30ac0d: 1>}
00:33	_ato	eh...
00:33	_ato	,(array-set (ref 1) (ref 1))
00:33	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: array-set in this context
00:34	arohner	I would model this so every player is a ref, every game is a ref
00:34	arohner	everything that wants to talk about players or games will point at that ref
00:34	arohner	so there's no possibility of having two copies of a player, and things won't get inconsistent
00:35	KirinDave1	Um, but players are immutable except for thier history.
00:35	KirinDave1	So what could change?
00:35	cark	right tradeoffs again, it makes sense here
00:35	arohner	so?
00:35	arohner	their histories change
00:36	cark	if their history change, their value change, so that's a completely new player
00:36	arohner	that's a new player struct
00:36	arohner	conceptually, the ref is the player
00:37	cark	that's a new player value =) conceptually his identity is the ref =)
00:37	KirinDave1	Well, conceptually his history is the ref
00:37	KirinDave1	I mean I could do away with history alltogether and just calculate it on the fly with games
00:38	KirinDave1	I was just going to keep it caches
00:38	KirinDave1	err, cached.
00:39	KirinDave1	But I'll consider changing it.
00:40	cark	anyways you have 2 options to give your players an identity, either you give them a unique key or you put them in a ref, and i'm off to bed !
00:40	cark	gnight
01:04	rads	is there a concise way to turn something like [["a" 1] ["b" 2] ["c" 2] ["a" 2] ["b" 3]] into {"a" 3, "b" 5, "c" 2}? (find the sums)
01:06	_ato	,(apply merge-with + (map hash-map [["a" 1] ["b" 2] ["c" 2] ["a" 2] ["b" 3]]))
01:06	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: ["a" 1]
01:06	_ato	,(apply merge-with + (map #(apply hash-map %) [["a" 1] ["b" 2] ["c" 2] ["a" 2] ["b" 3]]))
01:06	clojurebot	{"a" 3, "b" 5, "c" 2}
01:07	_ato	rads: ^
01:07	rads	_ato: thank you. the flexibility of clojure's sequence library never ceases to impress me
01:36	rads	how would I double each value in a hash map?
01:52	tomoj	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:foo 3 :bar 6 :baz 9}] [k (* 2 v)]))
01:52	clojurebot	{:foo 6, :bar 12, :baz 18}
01:52	tomoj	rads: ^
02:04	rads	tomoj: thanks
02:08	_ato	,(use 'clojure.contrib.generic.functor)
02:08	clojurebot	nil
02:08	_ato	,(fmap #(* % 2) {:foo 3 :bar 6 :baz 9})
02:08	clojurebot	{:foo 6, :bar 12, :baz 18}
02:09	_ato	,(fmap #(* % 2) [3 6 9])
02:09	clojurebot	[6 12 18]
02:09	tomoj	cool
02:10	tomoj	is that any faster? or just prettier?
02:10	_ato	just prettier, it's implemented in terms of (into {} ...) IIRC
02:13	_ato	~def fmap
02:14	_ato	heh, yeah: (into (empty m) (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])))
02:14	_ato	~def into
02:15	_ato	doing a reduce might be slightly faster as it avoids the lazyseq but probably not enough to be worth the trouble
02:18	tomoj	I wonder if a transient map could do it faster?
02:18	_ato	"into" uses a transient map
02:18	tomoj	well, I meant take the original map, make it transient, and then replace the keys
02:19	tomoj	er, values
02:19	_ato	oh right
02:19	tomoj	to avoid building up the structure again, dunno if that'd help or is possible
02:20	_ato	hmm, not sure. it'd have to copy all keys and values anyway, so perhaps not, but there might some weird cache locality benefits or something
02:28	tomoj	hmm
02:28	tomoj	I think it might actually be a bit faster
02:28	tomoj	but not much
02:28	tomoj	comparing (defn trans-map [f m] (let [t (transient m)] (doseq [k (keys m)] (assoc! t k (f (get t k)))) (persistent! t)))
02:28	tomoj	and (defn trans-map2 [f m] (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)])))
02:29	tomoj	I wish the 'time' macro returned the time instead of printing it :/
02:30	_ato	yeah, you should be seeing at least a slight advantage from the lack of the lazyseq that 'for' returns
02:30	_ato	oh hang on..
02:30	_ato	err... you can't use a transient that
02:31	_ato	way
02:31	_ato	it'll break
02:31	_ato	at least it's not guaranteed to work anyway
02:31	_ato	I wouldn't rely on it
02:34	tomoj	huh?
02:35	tomoj	how would it break?
02:35	hiredman	tomoj: you read http://clojure.org/transients ?
02:36	hiredman	"Don't bash in place"
02:36	hiredman	the flow is just like with the persistent versions, you have to pass around the result of operations
02:36	tomoj	oh yes
02:36	tomoj	so I should be reducing I guess
02:37	_ato	yeah
02:39	_ato	something like (persistent (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc! m k (f v))) (transient! m) m))
02:39	_ato	though I suspect (persistent (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc! m k (f v))) (transient! {}) m)) would be just as fast
02:39	tomoj	well that's what my initial wonder was, really
02:39	tomoj	I always feel bad starting from {} and rebuilding
02:40	tomoj	the hash structure stays the same since the keys aren't changing, so it seems like it would be faster to just swap out all the values
02:45	_ato	hmm, looks like you might be right, but the effect is only worth 5 or 10% at least on my PC
02:45	tomoj	not worth the bother then
02:49	tomoj	yeah I just got a 5% speedup too
04:47	kzar	Is there a way to pass extra parameters to the JPanel repaint function? I want to pass the information needed to render the game's state.
04:50	scottj_	I haven't used Swing much but from the java docs it doesn't look like that's what repaint is for
04:50	liwp	kzar: huh? repain() sends an event to the Swing event handler asking for a repaint of that component. It has nothing to do with your game state
04:52	kzar	liwp: Yea, my game's running from a loop and when I call repaint it ends up calling the function I wrote to render the game. I wanted to pass details of the state through repaint, so it reached my render function. That way the code would be more functional then having a variable set outside the game loop
04:54	kzar	I'm not sure that's possible or if there's an alternative way to acheive a similar result.
04:54	liwp	kzar: your functions has to be a method of a class for it to work with swing, so I think your only option is to embed the game state in your instance of that class
04:55	tomoj	isn't repaint called when the user moves the window around?
04:55	tomoj	or resizes, etc?
04:55	liwp	kzar: fundamentally swing is an OO framework, so I think you'll just run into a lot of trouble if you try to shoehorn it into FP thinking
04:55	liwp	tomoj: yes, but you can also call it yourself to force a redraw
04:55	tomoj	whatever's calling repaint when the window is resized shouldn't have to know the gamestate, though
04:55	liwp	agreed
04:56	kzar	oh that's a good point
04:56	tomoj	wouldn't you just have a proxy that uses paint to access the gamestate and draw it?
04:56	tomoj	and then if someone wants to repaint it they just ask? I still don't really understand swing very well :/
04:57	liwp	kzar: what you can do it write another function that is purely functional and returns the new game state based on the old game state, and call this function from your implementation of the function that swing calls
04:57	liwp	that way you do have a nice purely functional game state updater
04:57	kzar	liwp: But where does it get the old game state from?
04:58	liwp	kzar: you must implement a class that inherits one of the swing base classes, right?
04:58	liwp	(it's been a while since I've done any swing)
04:58	liwp	so your game state would be a field of that class
04:58	tomoj	seems strange to me to update the gamestate based on what swing wants
04:59	kzar	tomoj: Yea that's not what I want
04:59	tomoj	I want my gamestate in a ref/atom and the gui component will just deref this and paint whatever's there
05:00	liwp	sure, so your function would be something like (defn my-fun [#^Graphics g] (let [s @state] <paint>))?
05:01	liwp	I gotta run, but I think tomoj's right, you should use refs
05:01	kzar	ok
06:07	krumholt_	can i make a collection from a java array?
06:10	hoeck1	krumholt_: just call seq on it
06:11	krumholt_	hoeck1 nice thanks
06:16	AWizzArd	chouser: shell-outs sh is for short running processes yes? (not like a pipe)
07:01	djpowell	hmm, you know how add-class-path doesn't work well cause it can't append to the system class path? Attach agents, like I use in my liverepl can. Wonder if you could use them to replace the interactive uses of add-class-path? <http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/jdk/api/attach/spec/com/sun/tools/attach/VirtualMachine.html#loadAgent(java.lang.String, java.lang.String)>
07:01	djpowell	probably not. sounds flakey.
07:23	djork	djpowell: what's your liverepl?
07:28	_ato	djpowell: it's likely the agent is loaded in a subclassloader, so it would probably have the same problems as add-classpath (namely stuff loaded in higher classloaders can't see stuff in lower classloaders)
07:29	_ato	add-classpath should work okay if you load everything into Clojure's classloader (ie you put nothing but the clojure jar on the -cp command-line and add every jar you need with add-classpath)
07:31	esj	gents, is there a way to send a SIGINT (or equivalent) to a particular agent. shutdown-agents merely prevents new actions being dispatched, while I want to pull-down the running action.
07:33	krukow	esj: I don't think so, you'd have to program the agent to be interruptible
07:33	krukow	and check for interrupt status often
07:33	krukow	and still you'd need to access the thread... so probably not :-(
07:34	esj	ok thanks
07:36	_ato	yeah, not reliably anyway. Even if you can get a handle on the thread (I guess you could have the agent put it in a ref when it starts the job or something), if it blocks on IO or something catches the interrupt exception it becomes uninterruptible
07:39	mrSpec	Could you tell me how to change the value of x in let block? I cant find anything :/ like: (let ((x 0)) (setf x 1))
07:40	krukow	you cant: let bound locals are not variables
07:40	_ato	mrSpec: clojure locals are immutable
07:40	esj	hmm... will need to think.
07:41	krukow	there was one thing that came up yesterday: you can (let [x 42 x (inc x)] x)
07:41	_ato	you can however do: (let [x 0] (let [x 1] ...))
07:41	_ato	yeah
07:41	krukow	LOL :-)
07:41	krukow	,circuitbreak
07:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: circuitbreak in this context
07:41	esj	yikes !
07:41	_ato	that's not changing the value though, it's creating a new binding that "shadows" the outer one
07:41	mrSpec	hehe
07:41	krukow	,(let [x 42 x (inc x)] x)
07:41	clojurebot	43
07:41	krukow	that is what I mean
07:42	mrSpec	but can I do it in other way? to change value?
07:42	Maddas	Why?
07:42	mrSpec	I dont want 2nd "x"
07:42	Maddas	What is the problem you're trying to solve? You can't mutate an immutable, that's kinda the point :-)
07:42	krukow	why do you want to change it: can you give an example?
07:43	mrSpec	ok, I'm rewriting C++ code
07:43	mrSpec	I'll paste it sec
07:43	djpowell	djork: http://github.com/djpowell/liverepl - lets you repl in to running clojure/java processes with no special pre-configuration
07:43	krukow	heh - ok here we go
07:43	djork	oh cool
07:44	mrSpec	,paste
07:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: paste in this context
07:44	mrSpec	hmm
07:44	mrSpec	what was the url?
07:44	djork	clojurebot: paste
07:44	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
07:44	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
07:44	mrSpec	thanks
07:44	krukow	clojurebot: help
07:44	clojurebot	http://www.khanacademy.org/
07:44	djork	mrSpec: to "change" the value of a binding in a block you would recur
07:45	djork	either recur on the fn itself or use the loop construct
07:45	lisppaste8	mrSpec pasted "Mandelbrot " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91009
07:46	djork	,(loop [x 1] (if (< x 10) (recur (inc x)) x)
07:46	clojurebot	EOF while reading
07:46	djork	oops
07:46	djork	,(loop [x 1] (if (< x 10) (recur (inc x)) x))
07:46	clojurebot	10
07:46	krukow	C for usually maps to loop-recur
07:46	krukow	or higher order functions
07:47	djork	mrSpec: you wouldn't "change" isInside, you would return it
07:47	mrSpec	so if it so complicated, I'm doing something wrong?
07:47	mrSpec	djork: ah
07:47	esj	yeah, i think recrusion
07:48	djork	your innermost for loop should be translated into one expression that evaluates to the value of is-inside
07:49	krukow	mrSpec: it is not really more complicated, just different
07:49	mrSpec	djork: ok, I'll try with loop
07:49	krukow	but don't measure performance and then come back saying that clojure is slow :-)
07:49	djork	heh
07:51	mrSpec	hah about speed... I have some memory problem. It takes a lot of memory, but first I'll make it work, then I will think about memory ;)
07:51	krukow	;-) btw. I think that algorithm will be awkward to translate
07:52	krukow	particularly the part that sets isInside to false and then checks it later to sideeffect putpixel
07:55	mrSpec	krukow: so I should find other algorithm? ;)
07:57	krukow	I think it would be easier to rethink the algorithm than to try and port that imperative algorithm to a functional style, but just my two cents :-)
07:59	_ato	http://gist.github.com/241856
08:00	_ato	the isInside loop might look something like that I guess
08:00	_ato	I don't know what the alrogithm is doing so I've just called it "step"
08:01	djork	I'd make the algo return a seq of coords
08:04	mrSpec	_ato: thanks, I'll try it :D
08:05	_ato	I guess you'd probably need to use letfn instead of defn for step and inside? as you need to close over c-im and c-re values from the outer loops
08:06	mrSpec	i will have to read about letfn to see the difference.
08:06	_ato	oh actually inside? is okay
08:06	_ato	it's just step that uses c-im and c-re
08:10	_ato	yeah.. so actually maybe the whole thing would look something more like this: http://gist.github.com/241856 (updated)
08:10	mrSpec	ok, thanks for help, I have to go to Uni BBL
08:11	krukow	heh - uni exercise :-)
08:14	AWizzArd	rhickey: when I (send my-agent) in two threads T1 and T2, will then an await or await-for in T1 always wait for the answer it sent?
08:16	the-kenny	AWizzArd: I think t1 will wait for all actions in the agent to complete
08:17	AWizzArd	So then I would need to keep my current strategy to provide a (promise) and read that, ok.
08:56	rhickey	so I've just applied a contributed patch with git am, and tests fail, what's the easiest way to back it out?
08:57	chouser	you haven't pushed it?
08:57	rhickey	no
08:57	chouser	git reset --hard HEAD^ # that'll back you up one commit
08:57	chouser	the --hard means you might lose data, but of course that's what you want.
08:57	chouser	just be careful you don't have any uncommitted changes you want to keep
08:58	rhickey	I thought so, what an ugly command for such an ordinary thing
08:58	chouser	well, it's what I do. I don't know if it's "right" or best
08:58	rhickey	since git am applications are always speculative, you are not committing something you wrote yourself and understand to be correct
09:02	chouser	yes. I think another option might be to do all such commits in a local branch made for just such activity
09:03	chouser	but it's not clear to me that whole set of commands you'd end up using would be any less wordy
09:03	rhickey	chouser: I do that, but there were prior patches I wanted to keep
09:04	rhickey	ok, next release punch list is down to three items
09:06	chouser	ooh
09:06	rhickey	agent errors needs tidying
09:07	rhickey	sorted-set-by patch is broken, but I'd like to get the fix in
09:07	chouser	embedded constants is just about the tests.
09:07	chouser	need to make sure they're actually testing what they claim to be
09:08	rhickey	I'm unclear about embedded constants, don't we have that already?
09:08	chouser	yeah, the main patch is in but there's been some confusion about the tests.
09:09	chouser	at least in part because my experience reading tests is thin
09:11	rhickey	I've looked t every patch, and determined it's either not yet a good idea or not ready (in backlog), a good idea for next time (approved backlog), applied it, or those 3 left in Next Release
09:14	chouser	thank you. Does this feel like a sane system to repeat for future releases?
09:15	rhickey	I think so, we'll see how people do with the latest code and release candidate downloads
09:17	chouser	almost 30% so far say they're using 1.0. I'm losing my bet.
09:17	rhickey	we are going to need docs for a lot of things
09:17	chouser	yeah, I thought of that. :-/
09:17	rhickey	where are the results?
09:17	chouser	no good result charts yet
09:18	chouser	I was just using this: http://tinyurl.com/yefmz8e
09:19	rhickey	thanks
09:19	chouser	almost 10% on 'new'
09:20	rhickey	crazy people
09:20	rhickey	:)
09:20	chouser	:-)
09:20	fogus_	chouser: Hey! I resemble that remark.
09:21	rhickey	so new is very new today - the direct linking stuff is in for the craz... er intrepid
09:21	the-kenny	How can I take the survey? I can't find a link in the Spreadsheet..
09:21	fogus_	I don't know what that word means, but it sounds great!
09:22	chouser	53% don't know what chunked seqs are
09:22	chouser	the-kenny: survey: http://tinyurl.com/yeejwok
09:23	chouser	1% say chunked seqs hurt
09:26	devlinsf	,(str "Test")
09:26	clojurebot	"Test"
09:51	cemerick	rhickey: been absent for a bit -- is this 'direct linking' written up anywhere, or are the irc logs the best spot?
10:08	jweiss	question - is it idiomatic or overkill to use a multimethod like a switch statement? I am not sure that's an intended use for multimethods
10:08	krumholt_	can i "clear" a namespace of all symbols? i am trying to compile my code and i have renamed a bunch of functions. the "old" version are still around and i need to get rid of them
10:09	chouser	jweiss: if there's a possibility someone else might want to extend your switch statement, multimethods are definitely a good option
10:09	jweiss	chouser: probably not going to need extending
10:09	chouser	jweiss: if not then I guess it's up to you whether you think it would be clearer using cond or condp, or if multimethods would be clearer.
10:11	jweiss	chouser: i'll try the multimethod and see if it looks readable. thanks
10:11	chouser	jweiss: of course anytime the cond wouldn't be at the top level of a fn, a multimethod is likely to be a poor fit.
10:12	chouser	krumholt_: you can combind ns-interns with ns-unmap to clear everything
10:13	jweiss	chouser: i'm trying to "switch" on a test result (pass/fail/skip/exception) and call a set of "listeners" which do user-defined stuff based on the results of the test
10:13	jweiss	this is not any of the build in test stuff btw
10:13	jweiss	built
10:14	jweiss	i think multimethod will work
10:14	krumholt_	chouser, thanks
10:28	scottj_	Is there a general pattern for converting (for [a (foo) b (bar a) c (baz b)] [a b c]) into a series of maps? I'm trying to generalize p27 from ninety-nine prolog probs, here is the specific solution I came up with http://paste.lisp.org/display/91015 any suggestions? thanks
10:31	chouser	what's wrong with using 'for'?
10:34	scottj_	in part I'm curious how to do it w/ map, since I could use pmap. in part bc I thought map might be easier to write a general solution for w/o macros.
10:34	chouser	hm, maybe we need pfor. :-)
10:35	jweiss	if i'm using a multimethod that takes 3 args, and the dispatch only cares about the first arg, what do i put for the 2nd and 3rd args in the defmethods?
10:37	jweiss	just use nil?
10:40	chouser	scottj_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/91015#1
10:41	chouser	scottj_: when you have :when or :while things get trickier.
10:42	scottj_	Chousuke: thanks!
10:42	scottj_	(sorry about the default autocorrect)
10:42	scottj_	or maybe that was tab
10:42	chouser	np
10:43	chouser	happens all the time
10:43	chouser	but we're each too stubborn to change our nicks, so there you go. :-)
10:44	rhickey	cemerick: IRC logs re: direct linking - new last weekend
10:47	cemerick	OK, thanks :-)
10:48	cemerick	+1 on the idea of pfor
10:48	rhickey	cemerick: short story - more speed, via dynamicity tradeoff - nothing new under the sun
10:49	cemerick	rhickey: yeah, I caught a brief bit of the conversation yesterday, w.r.t. issues with contrib ns' rebinding core fns
10:49	rhickey	but open questions about how to best expose/control, so please chime in once up to speed
10:49	chouser	apparently I have an unconcious urge to make 'for' as complex as possible. chunk support helped a lot. pfor would take it a significant step further.
10:50	cemerick	I actually do rebind the root of a couple of core vars, though I presume that wouldn't be impacted by dynamic linking.
10:50	cemerick	or, static linking, that is.
10:51	cemerick	chouser: for is the new LOOP? :O
10:51	rhickey	cemerick: meaning you replace the core fn?
10:51	chouser	cemerick: if you don't call it, it won't be staticly linked
10:51	rhickey	I'd like to call it direct linking
10:51	chouser	cemerick: if you don't call it, it won't be direct linked
10:52	cemerick	rhickey: yeah -- the memoization of classes, or bases (forget which)
10:52	chouser	ah
10:52	cemerick	ah, supers and bases
10:52	rhickey	but yes, replacing roots would be effected since code direct linked prior to the replacement won't see the new version
10:52	rhickey	affected
10:53	cemerick	rhickey: I make sure I do my monkey-patching very, very early :-)
10:54	rhickey	I'm interested in any early experience reports on the latest new with direct linking
10:54	cemerick	I'm bundling a release this week -- will hopefully pull in HEAD over the weekend.
10:54	cemerick	rhickey: you're expecting some pretty crazy perf improvements eh?
10:55	rhickey	cemerick: it seems like 20-25% across the board is easy, but in specific cases it can be much. much faster, like 10x +
10:56	rhickey	right now it is limited to clojure*, so you won't get direct links for your own code
10:56	cemerick	is there more going on here than simply avoiding the indirection of the vars?
10:57	rhickey	cemerick: it's not actually the indirection, its the volatility
10:57	rhickey	can't inline through volatile
10:57	cemerick	you mean all the stuff associated with binding...
10:57	cemerick	oh, you mean java-volatile
10:57	rhickey	cemerick: no, dynamic binding is another layer, I'm just talking about replaceable roots
10:58	chouser	rhickey: re agent errors, you want some kind of guard to prevent any thread from doing clear-agent-errors while a error handler is running?
10:58	chouser	rhickey: or just guard the error handler thread itself while the handler is running?
10:59	rhickey	chouser: if easy, which it could be since you could compare agent to passed agent
10:59	rhickey	but most important is to doc that it is not ok
11:00	rhickey	until we figure out that it is :)
11:00	chouser	so other threads clearing while handler is running is ok
11:00	cemerick	so, without looking at HEAD (:-P ), I'm guessing there's now two Var classes, one with a volatile root another without -- and a direct-linked call site gets the latter, everyone else gets the former...
11:00	chouser	:-) right
11:00	rhickey	cemerick: no, direct linking is a property of the caller, not the var
11:00	cemerick	swing-and-a-miss
11:00	rhickey	so different callers might have different linkage
11:01	rhickey	the only thing that is on the var currently is a :dynamic true metadata tag that indicates it should never be direct-linked as it is due to be rebound by design
11:01	rhickey	currently pr is marked thusly for pprint
11:02	rhickey	and test/report
11:03	chouser	sorry, I'm still not clear on what you want for clear-agent-errors. (send a (fn [_] (clear-agent-errors agent))) is ok, right?
11:04	rhickey	chouser: why would one do that?
11:05	cemerick	nuclear-level error clearing "I want a usable agent back, dammit!"
11:05	rhickey	cemerick: but the send part?
11:06	cemerick	shrug
11:06	chouser	actually that won't work because you can't send to an agent with errors
11:06	cemerick	I've taken to simply wrapping everything sent to agents with a (try (catch Throwable ...)), just to avoid having to deal with agent errors. :-(
11:06	rhickey	cemerick: you want to ignore the errors?
11:06	chouser	either ignore or ...dum da dum... provide a callback.
11:06	chouser	cemerick: right?
11:07	cemerick	rhickey: well, that (catch Throwable) is in a quickie macro. The "real" code being sent has proper error handling. I just wanted a safety in the event of a stack overflow, OOME, etc.
11:08	cemerick	I'm only using agents in one spot, so it's entirely possible that I'm Doing It Wrong.
11:09	cemerick	The client code only really cares about two states, :error and everything else. When the former happens, it gets logged to be pondered later, very little that can be done in-place.
11:09	cemerick	Exceptions hanging around in the agent just muck up the other 99% of the work that goes off without a hitch.
11:10	rhickey	cemerick: so that ties into the auto-clear concept - send to callback and don't log internally
11:10	rhickey	I'm not opposed
11:11	cemerick	rhickey: I'm afraid I'm not at all versed in the various proposals wafting around for agent errors. Learn from me at your peril. ;-)
11:11	rhickey	I guess we had talked about the return value of the callback controlling that and the next agent state
11:11	rhickey	cemerick: these are things we already talked about
11:11	chouser	ok, so queued actions will proceed even if there's an error in the list. That's not a behavior I've taken advantage of.
11:13	chouser	so perhaps you might send several actions, some of which you know might fail and queue up a clear at the end of them so that future sends will be allowed.
11:13	rhickey	chouser: that's somewhat broken
11:13	chouser	sounds like a risky design, I suppose
11:13	chouser	yeah
11:21	tmountain	I was playing around with writing a squeeze function this morning to replace redundant runs of a given character in a string with a single instance of that character
11:21	tmountain	http://travis-whitton.blogspot.com/2009/11/squeezing-string.html
11:22	tmountain	for some reason, the version I wrote which uses reduce has terrible performance compared to using re-gsub from str-utils
11:22	tmountain	I'm wondering if it's something in my code or if I should avoid using reduce if I'm concerned about performance?
11:23	rhickey	tmountain: building strings by successive concatenation is a bad idea in every programming language, here too
11:24	leafw	tmountain: use str, which uses an StringBuilder.
11:24	rhickey	setting aside that regex will build a little machine for you, you'll need something with efficient append - streams, transient vector etc
11:25	rhickey	leafw: calling str over and over is no different than concat
11:25	leafw	true, still lots of new String being created.
11:25	tmountain	rhickey: so in the real world, I'd be better off with the regex or using something like a transient?
11:26	rhickey	tmountain: you can try a vector instead with little change to your existing code, and transient will little change to that
11:26	leafw	tmountain: no, rhickey meant you'd use a vector to accumulate strings, then apply str to it
11:26	tmountain	leafw: ok, gotcha
11:28	rhickey	make x a [] and (conj x y)
11:29	rhickey	str when done
11:29	rhickey	it still won't compete with a regex
11:30	rhickey	also, last is dangerous
11:30	rhickey	,(doc last)
11:30	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return the last item in coll, in linear time"
11:30	rhickey	linear time == do not use for not known small
11:31	tmountain	rhickey: good to know. thanks for the tips.
11:37	replaca_	p
11:41	replaca_	oops
11:46	Chousuke	hm, there's a ninja commit in the git repo :P
11:46	Chousuke	"Author: unknown <Ninja@.(none)>"
11:46	chouser	yikes
11:47	Chousuke	probably someone with misconfigured tortoisegit :)
11:47	magnet	that's what he wants you to believe
11:48	chouser	ah, pretty to see whose it actually is.
11:52	chouser	seems to me that most of the time if you provide an error-fn for an agent you don't want the error queued for you or the value of the agent to change, so simply providing an error-fn could do that
11:53	chouser	you can always have your error-fn queue the error somewhere else if that's what you want, otherwise just don't provide an error-fn and let it be queued in the agent
11:54	SergeyDidenko	Hi! Can anyone help me to simplify the following code: (def mymap {:vec [1 2 3]})
11:54	SergeyDidenko	(assoc-in mymap [:vec] (conj (:vec mymap) 5))
11:54	SergeyDidenko	I mean the second line
11:54	SergeyDidenko	:)
11:54	chouser	so that really just leaves the (I think unusual) case where you want the error-fn to adjust the value of the agent, perhaps based on the fn, args, or old state of the agent. Could use the return value of error-fn to communicate that, but doing so complicates the "normal" case of just leaving it alone.
11:55	chouser	SergeyDidenko: (update-in mymap [:vec] conj 5)
11:56	SergeyDidenko	Thanks, chouser. Somehow missed that.
11:56	chouser	rhickey: how does a set-agent-value that only works inside error-fn strike you?
11:57	chouser	SergeyDidenko: np
12:03	chouser	having an error cause a change to the agent value isn't even an option today, so maybe that feature's just not needed.
12:09	chouser	so that would mean agents with an error-fn would never be in an 'error' state. If all the useful data (exception, agent, fn, args) get passed to error-fn as a map, you could do something as simple as (agent state :error-fn prn) to get an agent that never gets "stuck" and prints errors to stdout
12:09	chouser	I think I like that
12:09	chouser	rhickey: I'm not going to touch this without some sense I'm headed in the right direction. Do you want me to write this up better and maybe post to clojure-dev?
12:15	tmountain	I re-wrote the squeeze function, built up the data, and then applied str at the end, and it runs 27X faster ;-) http://travis-whitton.blogspot.com/2009/11/squeezing-string.html
12:23	chouser	(agent init :error-fn #(.printStackTrace (:error %))) if you want to get fancy
12:26	cemerick	chouser: nice :-)
12:31	djork	tmountain: nice
12:31	djork	tmountain: good call on leaving str to the last step
12:43	esj	anybody here interacted with COM in clojure ?
12:45	duncanm	esj: via Java, or via .NET?
12:45	devlinsf	esj: No, but there is the JaCOB library
12:45	esj	Java
12:45	devlinsf	esj: http://danadler.com/jacob/
12:46	esj	yeah, i've seen JaCOB, com4j and ez jcom
12:46	esj	was wondering if anybody had opinions
12:47	duncanm	heh, i wonder if you can run Clojure on the MS JVM
12:47	duncanm	does clojure require java 5+?
12:49	devlinsf	duncanm: Yes, I believe java 5 is required
12:50	jweiss	can I use isa? with an interface? ie, how do i call isa? to check that Exception is a Throwable.
12:51	jweiss	sorry that (Exception.) is a Throwable.
12:51	devlinsf	,(isa? (class {}) clojure.lang.IFn)
12:51	clojurebot	true
12:52	jweiss	,(isa? (Exception.) java.lang.Throwable)
12:52	clojurebot	false
12:52	devlinsf	,(isa? java.lang.Exception java.lang.Throwable)
12:52	clojurebot	true
12:52	jweiss	devlinsf: that's because they are both classes
12:52	devlinsf	jweiss: Try this
12:52	hiredman	,(doc instance?)
12:52	clojurebot	"([c x]); Evaluates x and tests if it is an instance of the class c. Returns true or false"
12:53	Chousuke	tmountain: I wrote a quick version of that using a transient vector and it's about 30% faster it seems :)
12:53	devlinsf	,(isa? (class (Exception.)) java.lang.Throwable)
12:53	clojurebot	true
12:53	hiredman	,(instance? Callable #())
12:53	clojurebot	true
12:53	hiredman	,(instance? clojure.lang.IFn #())
12:53	clojurebot	true
12:53	jweiss	hiredman: i ask about isa? because i'm using multimethods, which calls isa?
12:53	devlinsf	jweiss: Use the class fn
12:54	Chousuke	tmountain: http://gist.github.com/242063
12:54	jweiss	so if i want to dispatch on a Throwable, how do i do that.
12:56	Chousuke	I like how few changes I had to make to use transients :P
12:56	jweiss	maybe i'm confused about what isa does. if i pass it two class objects, does it actually look at the hierarchy of their inheritance, or does it just say "yep, they're both class objects"
12:56	hiredman	it looks at the hierarchy
12:56	krumholt__	can someone explain to me why (map (fn [a b c] (a b c)) '(list list) [1 1] [2 2]) => (2 2) i would expect ((1 2)(1 2))
12:56	jweiss	hiredman: ok thanks
12:57	hiredman	you can even pass your own hierarchy to isa?
12:57	jweiss	hiredman: yeah i know, but i don't want to make my own in this case
12:57	Chousuke	krumholt__: you're using the symbol list as a function instead of the function list
12:57	Chousuke	,('list 1 2)
12:57	clojurebot	2
12:57	krumholt__	Chousuke, oh thanks
12:58	Chousuke	in general, it's ('sym coll not-found)
12:58	krumholt__	what does a symbol used as a function do?
12:58	Chousuke	looks itself up in whatever
12:58	Chousuke	or returns the second argument if it fails.
12:58	krumholt__	ok thanks
12:58	Chousuke	ie. same as a keyword.
12:59	Chousuke	you'd get the result you wanted if you used a vector instead of a quoted list :)
13:00	krumholt__	very nice :)
13:04	devlinsf	krumholt__: to empasize chosuke's point
13:04	devlinsf	,(map (fn [a b c d] (a b c d)) '(list list) [1 1] [2 2] [3 3])
13:04	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: Symbol
13:04	devlinsf	,(map (fn [a b c d] (a b c d)) [list list] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3])
13:04	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (1 2 3))
13:05	tmountain	Chousuke: very cool
13:06	hiredman	,(map (fn [a b c d] (a b c d)) (list list list) [1 1] [2 2] [3 3])
13:06	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (1 2 3))
13:06	Chousuke	hiredman: very clever :P
13:06	hiredman	buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo
13:06	defn	buffalo
13:06	duncanm	hmm
13:06	duncanm	how does that work?
13:06	Chousuke	duncanm: (list list list) creates a list of two functions, list and list
13:07	hiredman	,(list list list)
13:07	clojurebot	(#< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1> #< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1>)
13:07	duncanm	ohh
13:07	defn	,(list list list list)
13:07	clojurebot	(#< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1> #< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1> #< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1>)
13:08	defn	,(list (list (list list list)))
13:08	clojurebot	(((#< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1> #< clojure.lang.PersistentList$1@bd11b1>)))
13:08	Chousuke	Hm
13:08	Chousuke	I think Lisps problem wasn't that there were too many parentheses
13:09	Chousuke	it was that there were too many lists.
13:09	Chousuke	:P
13:09	defn	heh
13:09	Chousuke	also, Lisp's
13:10	duncanm	headius: the talks from JRubyConf will be posted, right? do you have an estimate?
13:11	defn	i wish they'd hurry up and post the RubyConf S. Halloway talk
13:12	headius	duncanm: I do not know, but it will hopefully come quickly
13:12	headius	clojure came up several times...seems like a lot of people like the idea of jruby front-end with clojure for concurrent services in the back-end
13:12	headius	jruby's becoming a pretty nice web gluey front-end for other jvm langs
13:17	ambient	why can't there be one lang uber alles? :(
13:18	ambient	sql, java, xml, http, html, orm, templates, blah, it all gives me a headache.
13:18	headius	ambient: there will never be one lang
13:18	ambient	i see no reason why everything could not be done with lisp
13:18	ambient	or a language without any syntax
13:18	annealer	i see no reason why i'd want to program in a world like that
13:18	rhickey	chouser: I think you can't pass fn + args, since fn isn't a great identity, so if you just pass error plus current state, it would be easy to return that state or some reset value. Setting a handler can replace putting in internal error log afaic
13:18	annealer	variety is fun. there is no one language to rule them all
13:19	headius	because not everyone will want to use lisp, and so everyone using lisp will have to duplicate effort others have already put in
13:19	ambient	variety distorts focus, focus is good for getting things done
13:19	headius	better to reuse than reimplement again and again
13:20	annealer	variety breeds innovation. there's more to life than just getting things done
13:21	ambient	i guess it's a good thing, we wouldn't want computing to be too simple so that there are more jobs available
13:21	cemerick	headius: I had an old RoR hand chat me up over the weekend about how we should use JRoR as our eventual front end. He made a compelling case.
13:21	headius	who was that?
13:21	headius	cemerick: ^^
13:22	headius	Rails 3 is also going to be even more compelling, since it will make it easier for us to swap bits out for existing java libs
13:22	cemerick	just a friend of mine who was deep into rails for some years, until he got yanked out into php land a few months ago
13:22	headius	there's several folks doing exactly that
13:22	headius	JRoR front plus Clojure in the back
13:22	headius	it's like a reverse mullet
13:23	ambient	does jruby hide the classpath awkwardness?
13:23	headius	generally, yes
13:23	headius	require 'java'; $CLASSPATH << 'whatever.jar'
13:23	cemerick	insofar as the web stuff is fundamentally "just a cost" for us (modulo the whole notion of quality UX), using something that designers and other like-minded folk are super-comfortable with makes sense.
13:23	headius	it's not flawless, but it works for most people just fine
13:23	defn	http://disclojure.org/
13:24	chouser	I have exactly one rails project. It makes me unhappy.
13:24	ambient	the fact that you have only one or the fact that you have a rails project?
13:24	chouser	It's not ruby's fault either.
13:25	headius	we need to get a clojure-inline added to the inlining gem
13:25	cemerick	Just about any front-end I've ever had to build has been a miserable experience.
13:25	headius	someone added scala over the weekend
13:25	chouser	ambient: heh. I've used the project to learn rails, and I haven't been fond of what I've learned.
13:25	ambient	chouser: not meant as a joke, i was just wanting to know your opinion and your statement was ambiguous ;)
13:25	cemerick	chouser: I think the objective in general is, bang it out, it's all going to get replaced in 6 weeks. ;-)
13:26	defn	so true
13:26	cemerick	That was the general approach in the django world when I passed through there a while back, too.
13:26	chouser	I knew ruby already -- still my favorite pre-clojure language.
13:26	ambient	i've done some django, never touched rails
13:26	headius	rails 3 cleans up a lot of the yuck in rails
13:26	defn	I haven't tried rails 3
13:27	chouser	I thought that since I hadn't done much standard server-side web app design that I should use a project that had made a bunch of design decicions already
13:27	bitbckt	defn: it's still "edge"
13:27	headius	there's at least one place going live with jruby + rails 3 soon
13:27	cemerick	headius: what's your pitch, then? Why should I use JRoR instead of something like compojure + enlive?
13:27	defn	i tried doing a HAML + SASS + RoR project with 2.x, but I do NOT recommend it
13:27	headius	they're kind of crazy though
13:27	headius	cemerick: no other web framework does as much for you as ror
13:27	defn	^
13:27	defn	there's a reason compojure is modeled after rails
13:28	ambient	most web frameworks give me headaches. I did Java Server Faces when it was barely version 1.0
13:28	cemerick	headius: but aren't I risking a significant skills/attention dilution by having yet another language floating around?
13:28	headius	ambient: I think that's a feature of JSF, actually
13:28	ambient	headius: not just headaches, but uncontrolled bursts of blind rage
13:28	headius	cemerick: well, given that there's lots of folks building rails apps without really knowing ruby, I'd say the watering-down potential is low
13:28	KirinDave	cemerick: For the libraries. :) For the language, it's a lot like human language. Your total capacity grows with your total inventory.
13:29	headius	rails is really just a nice internal DSL for web apps
13:29	headius	the fact that it's in ruby is peripheral
13:29	defn	cemerick: i don't think so. You have CSS, XHTML, why not throw a couple more in for other specific aspects of your application?
13:29	chouser	I would argue with "nice", esp. around activerecord
13:29	KirinDave	Also, find something that is more suitable for rapidly developing a web app with a small team.
13:29	defn	chouser: no one is forcing you to use activerecord
13:29	KirinDave	Most people don't understand the tradeoffs Rails decided to make.
13:30	cemerick	defn: yeah -- I'm, uh, promiscuous w.r.t. programming languages already. Just trying to draw headius out a bit :-)
13:30	defn	hehe :)
13:30	headius	I'm not a great person to advocate rails over X though
13:30	headius	I don't do apps much these days
13:30	cemerick	chouser: I'd agree, but when one isn't using an RDBMS, then activerecord ceases to be a problem :-)
13:30	cemerick	heh, I should head over to #ruby and see what I can stir up.
13:30	icey	twitter has turned into a really good irc warning system. when you start seeing the OHs you know it's time to login :D
13:30	bitbckt	cemerick: #ruby-lang
13:31	bitbckt	But if you go too far toward Rails, you risk getting punted into #ror, from there.
13:31	cemerick	huh, and there's a #jruby too
13:31	KirinDave	Which is totally worthless.
13:31	bitbckt	Rightly so, imho.
13:31	KirinDave	jruby is much better.
13:32	KirinDave	This is an example of #ruby-lang
13:32	KirinDave	http://kirindave.tumblr.com/post/24570389/incredibly-stupid-people-on-freenode-ruby
13:32	KirinDave	I would avoid them.
13:32	cemerick	headius: is glassfish still the preferred container for JRoR?
13:32	bitbckt	+1 on glassfish
13:32	technomancy	bitbckt: did I meet you at JRubyConf?
13:32	headius	cemerick: it's very nice
13:32	bitbckt	technomancy: Yessir, you did.
13:32	headius	as app server or as gem
13:32	defn	OooOooo! http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel.php There is no clojure support for org-babel
13:32	bitbckt	technomancy: I'm the awkward idiot that bugged you before your talk. :-)
13:32	defn	err rather org-babel support for clojure
13:32	defn	now*
13:32	headius	bitbckt: who are you irl?
13:33	bitbckt	headius: Brandon Mitchell
13:33	cemerick	headius: is GF the only viable option, though?
13:33	headius	ahh ok, one more connection made then
13:33	technomancy	bitbckt: heh; yeah I was just kind of heads-down since I decided to to the lightning talk on short notice.
13:33	bitbckt	headius: We had dinner together a RubyConf 2 years ago.
13:33	headius	cemerick: nah, jror can deploy as a war file to lots of stuff
13:33	headius	GF just has some other nice non-WAR options
13:34	bitbckt	technomancy: I understand. I appreciated your advocacy.
13:34	bitbckt	And Halloway, of course.
13:34	technomancy	he sure knows how to pitch
13:35	bitbckt	Yes, he does. Despite Susser.
13:35	bitbckt	>_>
13:36	headius	is phil hagelberg on irc?
13:37	headius	he did a lightning talk at jrubyconf about using refs+stm from jruby
13:37	bitbckt	headius: technomancy
13:37	headius	oh, great :) hi, technomancy
13:37	bitbckt	hehe
13:37	headius	technomancy: I was thinking of ways to make that more seamless
13:37	bitbckt	Huzzah for Rubyists in #clojure...
13:37	KirinDave	headius: I am surprised you two haven't met.
13:37	KirinDave	Seems like you're on a collision course.
13:37	headius	I just didn't know nickname
13:38	headius	technomancy: I've also had a handful of people that want to implement a "clojure mode" in Duby that uses clojure refs
13:38	headius	perhaps for object fields or something
13:38	technomancy	that would be slick
13:39	bitbckt	Ooh.
13:39	technomancy	right now the problem with jruby integration is exception wrapping; retry exceptions inside ruby blocks get wrapped with ruby exceptions
13:39	chouser	icey: what do you meant?
13:39	technomancy	I was trying to patch Clojure to catch them at the appropriate place and retry, but I wasn't sure how to do that without making Clojure depend on JRuby
13:39	headius	yeah there's a backward-compat issue that's hard to deal with
13:40	jweiss	technomancy: i'm following step3 of swank-clojure install ( 3.
13:40	jweiss	if you want to use a newer version of Clojure than 1.0 you will need to build it yourself and symlink the compiled jar to ~/.swank-clojure/clojure-$VERSION.jar after removing the old version.) i am getting classnotfound on clojure.main. did i need to make the link names exactly the same as the old filenames, even though it's a different ver of clojure?
13:40	headius	i.e. previous jruby folks decided to wrap all incoming java exceptions in our NativeException, rather than just make Java exceptions get JI-wrapped and use that
13:40	duncanm	headius: i had a similar thought the other day - duby syntax + clojure semantics might be useful for those afraid of the lisp syntax
13:40	technomancy	jweiss: it should just use all the .jar files in ~/.swank-clojure if you don't set the classpath yourself.
13:40	headius	duncanm: to be sure, and probably not hard to wire in
13:40	headius	could spike a "clojure_compiler" for duby that does it without much effort
13:41	jweiss	technomancy: hm. do i need to recompile swank-clojure or anything like that?
13:41	technomancy	headius: yeah, tom was telling me that was the Way of the Future.
13:41	headius	technomancy: I think I just had an idea how to get real exceptions to propagate without breaking anything
13:41	headius	we'll just have NativeException#=== return true for Java exceptions
13:41	KirinDave	technomancy: I have a question for you.
13:41	the-kenny	technomancy: Would it be possible to bring swank-clojure-project to use the var swank-clojure-extra-classpaths in addition to the classpaths from the project?
13:41	jweiss	i just renamed the old jar files, appending ".old" and symlinked the new ones (freshly built from master git branch)
13:41	headius	then existing rescue blocks will still work
13:41	headius	hmmm
13:41	KirinDave	technomancy: I'm really curious about hacking on your build project now that i've spent so much time with it. But... I was curious...
13:42	KirinDave	technomancy: Would you be opposed to more direct interaction with clojars during the project invocation?
13:42	technomancy	headius: wow, if that would work, that'd be much cleaner.
13:42	KirinDave	technomancy: E.g., "I think it was... compjure or something. Let's search."
13:43	technomancy	the-kenny: there's an alias set up that is supposed to do that already
13:43	icey	chouser: sometimes I'll see someone mention a quote on twitter (invariably it's someone quoting headius) and it lets me know there's probably an interesting irc conversation going on ;)
13:43	headius	technomancy: yeah, definitely...then we'd just propagate the actual exception throughout
13:43	the-kenny	technomancy: Huh? my repl depends somehow on swank-clojure-extra-classpaths, and it doesn't work if I use swank-clojure-project
13:44	chouser	icey: ah, I see. thanks!
13:44	technomancy	the-kenny: nm; misread you. the idea of swank-clojure-project is that everything is self-contained; if you want to use jars outside the project dir use symlinks
13:44	the-kenny	technomancy: hm.. ok.
13:45	icey	chouser: are you chouser on twitter?
13:45	chouser	icey: no, chrishouser
13:45	technomancy	KirinDave: not sure quite what you mean... which leiningen task(s) would get hooked up to clojars?
13:45	KirinDave	technomancy: Well, a more fancy "new" would be pretty awesome, in my opinion.
13:46	headius	another possible reason to use ror for the front-end is that webapps are messy, stateful, mutable affairs; better to just let rails handle all that mess
13:46	technomancy	KirinDave: oh, so something that can pick from a number of new project templates?
13:46	technomancy	that'd be nice
13:46	KirinDave	technomancy: Yes. And also maybe even integration with the clojars metadata.
13:47	the-kenny	technomancy: Another question: When do I have to (require 'swank-clojure-autoload) in my .emacs? I couldn't get it to work without copying some from the file to my .emacs.
13:47	KirinDave	Like let's say the project page is tied to a github, you could envision git enabled tasks to pull out submodles as necessary and properly configure the project to build them.
13:47	defn	What are chunked sequences?
13:48	KirinDave	defn: It's an optimisation
13:48	technomancy	the-kenny: that should be handled for you by an elpa install... if you're not using elpa it's more complicated.
13:49	KirinDave	defn: They basically compute the sequence in chunks to amortise the advancement cost over time.
13:49	defn	ooo cljdb!
13:49	defn	KirinDave: ah-ha -- thanks
13:49	the-kenny	technomancy: I don't want to use elpa... I like to have control about such things.
13:49	rhickey	chouser: did you see above: I think you can't pass fn + args, since fn isn't a great identity, so if you just pass error plus current state, it would be easy to return that state or some reset value. Setting a handler can replace putting in internal error log afaic
13:49	KirinDave	defn: rhickey tweeted the link yesterday: http://bit.ly/7pmDgE
13:49	defn	ahhh, thanks again
13:50	defn	back to work...
13:50	technomancy	KirinDave: right now projects can have dev dependencies on leiningen plugins, which would work for tighter integration for everything except new (since new runs without a project in place)
13:50	chouser	rhickey: yes I did thanks.
13:50	technomancy	but we're thinking about adding a user-level config file, so you could have leiningen plugins loaded across the board
13:50	chouser	rhickey: you think it's important to allow the error-fn to change the state of the agent?
13:50	headius	I wish we all had a common set of function interfaces across langs
13:50	technomancy	the-kenny: ok, but if you don't use the supported installer then you're on your own, sorry.
13:50	headius	sigh
13:50	the-kenny	technomancy: hm ok, no problem.
13:50	headius	technomancy: is there a bare "clojure" gem?
13:50	bitbckt	headius: That would ruin all the fun.
13:50	KirinDave	technomancy: Which is why the task would have to be built in.
13:50	the-kenny	It's working fine now.
13:51	KirinDave	technomancy: But after that, things like git assists would be easy to add.
13:51	rhickey	chouser: yes, but if handed the current state, should be no problem to simply return it
13:51	technomancy	headius: not without my wrapper afaik
13:51	cemerick	bitbckt: "bozo bit company" :-D
13:51	bitbckt	cemerick: sigh
13:51	chouser	rhickey: ok
13:52	bitbckt	cemerick: I can't express how true that is.
13:52	headius	technomancy: we should release one, so there's a basline gem people can depend on
13:52	cemerick	bitbckt: don't worry, the times, they are a'changin.
13:52	headius	or I need to get off my ass and wire maven support directly into rubygems
13:52	bitbckt	cemerick: I hope so.
13:52	headius	or just clean this up and make it handle dependencies well: http://github.com/jruby/maven_gem
13:53	headius	then you'd just gem install clojure-1.0 and it would fetch from maven
13:58	icey	Does anyone know if anybody is working on a Clojure web framework that uses templates instead of representing HTML in Clojure?
13:59	KirinDave	icey: You can easily use a template agency with compojure.
13:59	chouser	rhickey: changing state means running validators which may in turn cause errors. I guess errors thrown by error-fn directly or from validators can be put in the errors list?
14:00	icey	KirinDave: pardon my ignorance, but what is a template agency?
14:00	KirinDave	icey: I dunno why I wrote agency. I must have had a serious brainfart there.
14:00	KirinDave	... I am worried now.
14:00	KirinDave	I meant library but I typed agency. :(
14:01	icey	KirinDave: haha okay thanks :D I hit google thinking I had been looking for the wrong thing. Any idea what sort of engines people are using w/ compojure?
14:02	KirinDave	There was one really cool one I saw in here yesterday but I seem to have lost the think.
14:02	KirinDave	Fuck
14:02	KirinDave	What the hell is wrong with me. I'm typing every word but the word I mean. Am I grandpa gummy now?
14:03	cemerick	icey: enlive is great concept, haven't used it in anything significant myself, though.
14:03	KirinDave	icey: I was meaning to try http://clj-me.blogspot.com/2009/01/enlive-yet-another-html-templating.html
14:03	cemerick	just about anything can be wired in, though
14:03	KirinDave	http://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/2a15c466048f7e0311243b3d7a669705bbcbe072/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html/example.html
14:04	icey	Hmmm, enlive looks interesting; I might check that out, thanks :D
14:05	KirinDave	Yeah, it looks like a really good way to interact with pages that have very rich javascript.
14:05	icey	KirinDave: You can blame your mental state on the upcoming holidays; that seems to work for me
14:05	KirinDave	You can put in "stock" crap that simply provides sample data for your scripts.
14:05	KirinDave	icey: I wish. I did just get married. I hear that once you get married you get dumber. Something about settling down to have kids.
14:05	icey	KirinDave: that matches my experience with getting married ;)
14:06	icey	I need HTML templates because I will often get completed sites sent to me that just need code added for the functionality, and I don't want to translate everything into Clojure to make it work
14:06	KirinDave	yeah
14:06	KirinDave	Well that whole sexpr-html is a very misguided idea when you're building whole pages.
14:06	KirinDave	It's nice for things like list items.
14:06	cemerick	I still don't understand the urge to use sexprs instead of HTML.
14:07	KirinDave	cemerick: It's because people hate and/or look down upon HTML.
14:07	cemerick	I'm hoping it's deeper than that -- trying to leverage the power of macros, etc.
14:07	icey	cemerick: I really like them when I'm doing one-off small applications and I just need a couple of forms, for example. I can see everything at once, and use functions for my patterns
14:07	cemerick	Seems like one's looking for a nail in that case, tho.
14:08	chouser	my co-workers were very happy when I provided a way to use JavaScript syntax to build DOM tree for subsequent insertion on the page.
14:08	KirinDave	Right
14:08	KirinDave	For snippets it makes total sense.
14:08	KirinDave	Like, I have strings and a list of strings could easily be a list in html.
14:08	KirinDave	Great.
14:09	KirinDave	But the minute you start trying to make more complex tags it falls apart
14:09	KirinDave	And is less readable and less robust than HTML
14:09	chouser	hmmm
14:09	cemerick	It might be because I used them so much, but I still like JSPs -- super-simple, gets out of your way, gets the job done.
14:09	cemerick	Avoid putting "real" code in there, of course.
14:09	icey	sexprs are also really nice if your application is composed, depending on prior user actions; I have a survey application that completely changes depending on what's been answered previously
14:09	chouser	Seems to me HTML was designed for marking up text. s-expr's (and json) are lousy for that.
14:10	cemerick	chouser: what do you think of the sexpr js templating lib that popped up a bit ago?
14:10	chouser	but if you're creating a dense tree of small nodes, html/xml gets annoying fast, while s-exprs, json, yaml, etc. do nicely
14:12	chouser	hm, seems I wrote about this once.
14:12	chouser	heh. old. http://n01se.net/chouser/blog/#blogsd
14:14	chouser	cemerick: link?
14:17	cemerick	chouser: yeah, not that I can find it again now. :-/
14:18	cemerick	chouser: http://github.com/arohner/scriptjure/
14:18	cemerick	OK, not so recent, but new to me. :-P
14:18	djork	is it just me or is the list of announced features for JVM 7 a bit... underwhelming
14:19	cemerick	huh, by our own arohner, even. I didn't even notice at first blush.
14:20	djork	wow, scriptjure sure highlights the similarities between JS/clojure
14:20	djork	it would be interesting to see a return-less version
14:20	djork	i.e. just automatically insert return in tail position
14:21	KirinDave	I wonder if Clojure is ever going to switch from its CL-style macro system to a more scheme-like MBE system.
14:21	KirinDave	It seems like MBE is more in line with the way clojure does method definitions.
14:21	the-kenny	MBE?
14:21	KirinDave	Macro By Example
14:21	KirinDave	Have you see the way PLT-Scheme does macros?
14:22	KirinDave	Very beautiful.
14:22	djork	hmm, I just got used to Clojure's macros
14:22	the-kenny	No I haven't, sorry.
14:22	djork	I never got my head around PLT's
14:22	KirinDave	http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/pattern-macros.html
14:22	djork	mostly because the docs are quite dense
14:22	KirinDave	djork: I dunno, PLT Scheme has some of the most approachable documentation anyone has ever had for a lisp.
14:22	djork	oh wow, that' snot bad
14:22	KirinDave	djork: Just read the guide, not the reference.
14:22	the-kenny	Maybe you can implement MBEs with clojure macros :D
14:22	djork	for some reason I remember struggling with it a while back
14:22	djork	ah yes
14:22	djork	it was the reference
14:23	KirinDave	What's so cool about it is that it automagically handles masking.
14:23	KirinDave	So you can just write macros without consideration for variable capture.
14:24	the-kenny	KirinDave: Clojure has auto-gensyms.
14:24	KirinDave	the-kenny: They're still explicit.
14:24	KirinDave	or so the docs suggested?
14:25	the-kenny	Yes, but it's easier than in CL :)
14:25	KirinDave	You need to decide when you want them
14:25	KirinDave	Oh sure.
14:25	KirinDave	And sometimes you need the raw dawg macro
14:25	KirinDave	I wonder if I could write an MBE library for clojure...
14:25	KirinDave	For 95% of all macros, MBE is superior, safer, and almost always clearer.
14:25	djork	go for it
14:26	the-kenny	KirinDave: Just try it :)
14:26	djork	I'm happy with defmacro so far
14:26	djork	but I'm new to macros in general
14:26	the-kenny	If it isn't possible with macros (which i doubt), you can also implement it right in the reader ;)
14:27	KirinDave	the-kenny: It's possible with macros. Although it's best to be integrated into the reader to handle the namespacing issues.
14:27	djork	the-kenny: I think the trick with implementing MBE as a macro is the scope consideration
14:27	technomancy	did #^bytes get added as a type hint specifier, or is that still being worked on?
14:33	cemerick	technomancy: I think it's in there, yeah
14:33	jweiss	anyone here used c.c.logging ? getting it to work at the repl seems to be nontrivial
14:33	chouser	cemerick: ah, for generating js from clojure, I misunderstood you. I haven't used it yet, but do have a project where it might fit. So no real opinion other than it seems like to be filling a real need.
14:33	cemerick	jweiss: it needs a little work -- it binds at compile time
14:33	twbray	,command-line-args
14:33	clojurebot	nil
14:37	cgrand	technomancy: #^bytes exists
14:37	technomancy	cool
14:38	technomancy	it looks like you can type hint with classes that don't actually exist; that seems pretty strange
14:38	technomancy	no warnings or anything
14:38	chouser	also with strings!
14:44	twbray	Pardon my extreme stupidity... been working in the REPL for a while, trying to run a script through main, failing. If I say (ns clojure.main) (defn main [args] ... ) in my script, then say java yadda yadda clojure.main my-script.clj, shouldn't that do it?
14:44	twbray	Looking at http://clojure.org/repl_and_main
14:46	chouser	twbray: when called from the command line like that, it's just executing everything at the top level. you could add your own (apply main command-line-args) to the bottom of the file if you want.
14:47	chouser	I think there's another way to get a fn named 'main' called, but I don't remember how.
14:47	twbray	All I really want is to get access to cmd-line args, having trouble getting command-line-args to have any values
14:47	technomancy	-main is for building an executable jar
14:48	twbray	There has got to be a way to get a command-line arg into my clojure script :(
14:50	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "command-line-args, simplest example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91038
14:52	twbray	chouser: Thanks. That was my first attempt, must have had some subtle typo.
14:59	drewr	will clojure automatically benefit from Java 7's number underscores?
15:00	cemerick	isn't that just compiler sugar?
15:01	chouser	drewr: I doubt it. cemerick: probably
15:01	chouser	there have been proposals for spacers in numbers for Clojure
15:01	drewr	I remember those discussions
15:01	fogus_	What was the final verdict?
15:01	cemerick	I don't see the appeal, but whatever
15:01	drewr	maybe this will help make a decision
15:02	devlinsf	Java 7 is dead. Isn't that why we're here?
15:02	chouser	:-(
15:02	drewr	I think (range 10_000_000) is much nicer than (range 10000000)
15:02	chouser	I like (range 1e7)
15:02	drewr	yeah, I forget about that
15:03	chouser	but of course that doesn't help with 121121521111 or whatever
15:03	chouser	of which there are so many in my code
15:03	the-kenny	I think 10_000_000 is very ugly
15:03	the-kenny	,(identity 10,00)
15:03	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$identity
15:03	chouser	comma is whitespace!
15:03	drewr	comma is whitespace, not null space
15:03	chouser	~comma
15:03	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
15:03	fogus_	I like (range 046113200)
15:04	the-kenny	okay
15:04	chouser	fogus_: noooo...
15:04	duncanm	technomancy: is your site down? i'm having trouble installing SLIME from ELPA
15:04	drewr	fogus_: :-)
15:05	fogus_	chouser: You made the point though... it's not often that you'll see those huge constants except in toy code
15:05	devlinsf	fogus_: I don't get it
15:05	fogus_	,(count (range 046113200))
15:05	clojurebot	10000000
15:06	fogus_	devlinsf: ^^^^^
15:06	devlinsf	fogus_: Huh? Is it an overflow?
15:06	chouser	octal :-P
15:06	drewr	devlinsf: not base 10
15:07	devlinsf	Oh, okay
15:07	devlinsf	,(range 08000)
15:07	clojurebot	Invalid number: 08000
15:07	chouser	read support for octal should look more like #octal:2342
15:07	devlinsf	Got it
15:07	drewr	,0xfff
15:07	clojurebot	4095
15:08	drewr	,0777
15:08	clojurebot	511
15:08	fogus_	,(range 010)
15:08	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
15:09	chouser	,(+ 1 36rHello)
15:09	clojurebot	29234653
15:09	fogus_	This is like modern day calculator curse words
15:09	chouser	heh
15:10	devlinsf	chouser: is there a shortcut for 2r1111
15:10	chouser	shorter that "2r"? I don't think so
15:10	devlinsf	Well, something that implied binary
15:11	devlinsf	So it looks special
15:11	chouser	yeah, I don't think so.
15:11	devlinsf	Hmm, okay
15:11	devlinsf	Just the EE in me
15:12	chouser	Looking at the code now. The answer is "no"
15:14	chouser	but you can use a capital instead or r or x
15:16	fogus_	Where does the zero-prefix for octal come from anyway? C? Fortran?
15:16	devlinsf	I'd guess C
15:16	chouser	C at least, if not before
15:17	fogus_	I guess my question is what's the rationale?
15:18	chouser	rm, 8r377 is smalltalk
15:18	chouser	hrm
15:18	chouser	python3 uses 0o377 ...doesn't seem like a good idea to use ohs in numbers
15:18	alexyk	hi guys -- anyone used congomongo?
15:19	devlinsf	fogus: Wikipedia doesn't have anything :(
15:19	devlinsf	fogus_: Wikipedia doesn't have anything :(
15:19	fogus_	Yeah, depending on your font, 0O010 could be a headache to look at in Python
15:20	fogus_	devlinsf: Yeah, that's where I tried first
15:20	jasapp	alexyk: I use it a bit
15:20	devlinsf	Maybe the 0x is an seembly holdout?
15:20	devlinsf	*Maybe the 0x is an assembly holdout?
15:21	defn`	Easiest, simplest way to get a basic blog set up with clojure syntax highlighting?
15:21	defn`	Preferably something that I can just use out of the box without extra config.
15:21	fogus_	defn`: Github?
15:22	defn`	fogus_: ?
15:22	the-kenny	defn`: gist.github.com
15:22	fogus_	defn`: Like this http://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic
15:22	defn`	oh duh, i didn't think of that!
15:22	defn`	i was hoping to put it on my domain
15:23	defn`	but i could just redirect i guess
15:23	alexyk	jasapp: I'm saying (:use somnium.congomongo) and it can't find it, although the jar is on the path.
15:23	the-kenny	defn`: You can use github-pages :) If you're a premium member, you can set CNAME-Values too.
15:23	chouser	I think I've seen github gists embedded in blog pages
15:24	chouser	clojure.org uses a javascript thingy
15:24	fogus_	I embed gists in my blog
15:24	technomancy	defn`: M-x htmlize-region is awesome if you blog from Emacs
15:24	chouser	fogus_: probably where I saw it then. :-)
15:25	duncanm	what's the difference between :use and :require again?
15:25	the-kenny	fogus_, chouser: http://github.com/blog/122-embedded-gists
15:25	fogus_	defn`: I use this cool WP plugin that lets me wrap the code in a tag and if a gist doesn't already exist it creates one and links to that
15:25	Chousuke	embedded gists are not so nice. they require javascript and just disappear if you don't have it enabled :P
15:26	Chousuke	it's pretty confusing to read blog posts stating "here's the code" when there's nothing.
15:26	devlinsf	duncanm: use mixes all of the functions into the namespace. require imports them and lets you alias them
15:27	devlinsf	duncanm: require helps avoid collisions. see str-utils2 for an example of a lib that is better reuire'd than use'd
15:27	jasapp	alexyk: is that in the ns macro?
15:27	fogus_	Chousuke: The plugin I use takes care of that... I wish I could remember the name without having to log into my blog admin :(
15:27	alexyk	yeah
15:27	alexyk	I'm using it outside the macro, can I?
15:29	jasapp	I'm not sure I understand exactly, but if it's outside the ns macro, you want use the function, not use the keyword.
15:29	defn`	fogus_: that is cool
15:30	fogus_	defn`: I use this http://blog.kno.at/tools/highlight-source-pro/
15:30	alexyk	jasapp: ah ok, am very new to clojure :) in ns works
15:30	jasapp	alexyk: and you'll also want somnium.congomongo to be quoted
15:31	alexyk	jasapp: single quote in front, right?
15:31	fogus_	defn`: Whoops, that's not right. I use http://pomoti.com/gist-it
15:32	alexyk	fogus_: "Basically, that problem usually happens with those who ‘programming-bloggers’ are the main activity when not sleeping." :)
15:35	alexyk	what do people use for SQL? anything prettier than raw jdbc?
15:36	drewr	alexyk: for simple cases, c.c.sql suffices
15:37	chouser	I continue to be intruiged by http://www.gitorious.org/clojureql/
15:37	chouser	haven't actually used it thought
15:37	chouser	though
15:37	chouser	I'm in nosql land now
15:37	drewr	chouser: +1
15:37	drewr	cql is really good, I just haven't had time to write a mssql backend
15:38	alexyk	drewr: who cares about MS :) postgres is all I need
15:39	alexyk	chouser: I have an abstract system where I try different backends. Tried BDB and Mongo, but Postgres will do too.
15:40	chouser	if you're not writing sql-like queries in your app code, clojureql is probably the wrong level
15:40	fogus_	chouser: Which nosql?
15:40	chouser	writing our own :-)
15:40	drewr	nice
15:41	fogus_	NIH! ;-)
15:41	chouser	I was skeptical, but came around. I think we have sufficiently compelling reasons for not building on anything that's out there right now.
15:41	fogus_	chouser: In clojure?
15:42	drewr	all the nosql tech is so young
15:42	drewr	I've been impressed with cassandra but it's not quite there yet for our needs
15:42	chouser	fogus_: clojure, C++, Java plus some jruby for testing, a custom query language, and no doubt eventually php bindings.
15:45	somnium	alexyk: I've used it :)
15:46	alexyk	somnium: works nicely! :)
15:46	alexyk	none of the ORM headaches from Scala... since not much types enforcement in here :)
15:47	rhickey	chouser: sorry, away for a bit - yes, if value returned by error-handler fails validation just put in normal error list
15:47	somnium	alexyk: yes, json format fits clojure's structures well. unfortunately I can't use it for my current project :( but I'm glad its useful to some people
15:49	alexyk	somnium: there's a competing project on github, by gilbertl, did you see that?
15:49	somnium	I'm not sure that we're competing :) We both use an open source language to wrap an open source driver for an open source database
15:50	alexyk	somnium: you are competing for users! :)
15:50	chouser	amazing amount of complexity packed in here. :-/ when to skip releasePendingSends()?
15:51	alexyk	ok, alternative... any idea of the differences?
15:53	chouser	skip releasePendingSends() even if the error was handled by an error-fn, right?
15:54	rhickey	hmmm
15:54	somnium	alexyk: I did look at it, I suspect its a bit slow, since it traverses maps with clojure.walk to handle keywords. Though I kind of cheated and wrote a little java class to do that.
15:54	duncanm	technomancy: i keep on seeing 'failed to download clojure jars' when i run M-x slime on a fresh machine
15:54	alexyk	somnium: you have a better readme, so I picked yours. :)
15:54	somnium	:)
15:55	chouser	if the action throws something, you'd be surprised to find some 'sends' go out but not others, wouldn't you?
15:55	alexyk	somnium: I have a 70 GB database with 100M twits, let's see how you can handle that :)
15:56	rhickey	chouser: which went out?
15:56	chouser	though if a watcher fails, you might be surprised if any sends are held back.
15:56	somnium	alexyk: it can create IPersistentMaps quickly, but I guess you'll run out of ram pretty quickly with that load :)
15:56	alexyk	somnium: is there any tuning I must/can do? I have a 64 GB RAM box for this job
15:57	chouser	if your action does: send 1, throw, send 2 ...1 will go out if released, but 2 would never have been queued
15:57	somnium	alexyk: mongo doesn't support concurrent reads until 1.4, + deftype and defprotocol make it even faster, so I'm kind of waiting for the next release
15:57	alexyk	35 GB are data, 35 GB indexes
15:57	alexyk	somnium: you mean 1.1.4?
15:57	somnium	alexyk: yes 1.1.4
15:57	alexyk	what are deftype and defprotocol?
15:58	somnium	alexyk: new performance enhancing clojure features, as for mongo, I guess you'll want to shard it, but the driver won't help with concurrency right now :(
15:58	kotarak	_ato: you are the clojars guy, right?
15:59	alexyk	somnium: java driver or clojure wrapper?
16:00	rhickey	chouser: ah, ok, so, never queued, not really missed. It seems there could be no correct default policy there, but currently we eat on error, so let's keep that. I guess a composite return could tell us what to do...
16:01	somnium	alexyk: well, the clojure wrapper is very threadsafe, but to get a performance boost from concurrency you'll need a connection pool to n databases
16:01	somnium	I would check the java driver to see if it offers any support for that
16:01	chouser	a composite return could also allow nil to mean no change to agent value, which would be handy for many minimal examples.
16:01	alexyk	somnium: ok
16:02	rhickey	chouser: how so? nil could be the new value
16:03	rhickey	I'm not sure I follow the problem with returning what you are handed
16:03	rhickey	do you want to avoid the validation etc?
16:04	chouser	No, it's not a big problem, but I expect a lot of simple cases to end up with error fns like #(do (prn %2) %1) instead of just prn
16:04	chouser	real-world code will have more complex handlers and returning an explicit new value won't feel awkward there
16:05	technomancy	kotarak: _ato is on aussie time IIRC, but I'm working on the project with him
16:05	chouser	but I thought you were suggesting error-fn return {:pending-sends :release, :new-value foo} or something, in which case nil could mean no change.
16:05	rhickey	yeah, I wouldn't worry, people will write one handler they like and reuse
16:06	chouser	ok
16:06	defn`	poor s_e_t_h and his failed clojure blog post
16:06	kotarak	technomancy: ah. Ok. Are there special requirements on the filenames copied? specifically: does the pom need to be called "pom.xml" or could it also by "foobar-1.2.0.pom.xml"?
16:06	rhickey	chouser: nil for the entire return? would that relase sends?
16:07	chouser	I ... uh, I dunno. I guess I would think not.
16:07	technomancy	kotarak: I don't see "pom.xml" hardcoded in, so I suspect your longer version would work. give it a try.
16:08	ordnungswidrig	clojure compiler error message is driving me nuts. the file with the namespace a.b must go in /a/b.clj right?
16:08	chouser	releasing sends seems like something you want only when things are working "normally"
16:08	kotarak	technomancy: ok, will try.
16:08	chouser	an action can always try/catch itself if it's expecting errors
16:09	ordnungswidrig	hmm, are dashes allowed in ns names? a-b.c-d ??
16:09	chouser	ordnungswidrig: yes, but are _ in file and directory names
16:09	rhickey	chouser: yeah, until you think about the exception conveying enough info for the handler to fabricate a valid work step. The biggest problem is not knowing how far through any sends you've gotten, as you mentioned before
16:09	ordnungswidrig	chouser: thanks!
16:10	rhickey	really, any action that sends needs to have its own handler, even if it ends up rethrowing
16:10	chouser	how do erlang and scala do this?
16:10	rhickey	so, let's just not release, and have a single return of new state - you can do an identity test to avoid validation/watchers
16:11	rhickey	chouser: erlang is fail == die
16:11	chouser	oh
16:11	chouser	I assume neither hold "sends" at all?
16:11	rhickey	with death notification and restarts
16:12	chouser	we do notifyWatches on an action, even with the value is unchanged. You want to withhold notification if the error-fn makes no change?
16:12	rhickey	so you just have this chain of death notification links
16:12	ordnungswidrig	Anybody seen this with slime/swank: error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: swank-clojure-slime-mode-hook
16:13	chouser	also, is it really worth it to you to have me write this when all I do is pester you with every little decision. ;-)
16:13	rhickey	that has toggled back and forth a few times, note the boolean return on setState
16:13	ordnungswidrig	I'm using slime from elpa and maven swank-clojure 1.0-SNAPSHOT
16:14	chouser	rhickey: yeah, I noticed.
16:14	rhickey	I think it was your use case that swapped it last time :)
16:15	chouser	:-)
16:15	rhickey	a countdown watcher or something
16:15	technomancy	ordnungswidrig: did you install swank-clojure or just slime?
16:16	technomancy	(in elpa)
16:16	ordnungswidrig	both
16:16	rhickey	in some sense, a watcher is like a permanent pendingSend, so they should have the same policy
16:16	ordnungswidrig	I suppose elpa takes precedence on debians slime
16:16	chouser	except they happen synchronously. But yeah, I definitely see your point.
16:17	technomancy	never used debian's slime; they could be conflicting
16:17	hiredman	woa
16:17	hiredman	technomancy: you've seen javagems?
16:17	rhickey	so, no watchers on identical state
16:17	chouser	it seems a bit odd that an error-fn could change the state of an agent because a watcher threw something
16:17	ordnungswidrig	technomancy: I think it an outdated swank-clojure that maven is using. I try starting the repl by slime
16:18	rhickey	I'm happy having watcher errors go into the normal list
16:18	rhickey	really, a watcher that can throw is bogus
16:18	chouser	my main complaint about the normal list is how it poisons the agent
16:18	chouser	yes
16:18	rhickey	but, I'm sure people want to route all problems to a single place
16:19	chouser	but routing errors seems a bit different than fixing up an agent state
16:19	rhickey	or there could be a watcher-error-handler
16:20	ordnungswidrig	technomancy: strange. slime starts a clojure repl but swank-clojure-project fails on missing clojure libs
16:21	chouser	wather-error-handler return values would be ignored instead of updating the agent
16:21	rhickey	that's probably easier architecturally for us, and makes more sense = would be passed exception ony, ignored return
16:21	chouser	but could default to be the same as the normal error-fn?
16:21	rhickey	no
16:21	rhickey	different args
16:22	chouser	no state
16:22	rhickey	right
16:23	rhickey	in fact, if no watcher error handler provided - I'd prefer to ignore them
16:23	chouser	ok!
16:23	rhickey	couldn't ignore before because there would be no way to find out about the failures
16:23	ordnungswidrig	technomancy: got it. had to run mvn dependency:copy-dependencies first :-)
16:24	rhickey	now user choice
16:24	chouser	right
16:24	chouser	we can consider changing the default for action errors to match at some later point. :-)
16:25	rhickey	chouser: well, there might be user code already using agent-errors
16:25	chouser	right
16:25	chouser	breaking change. not for now.
16:25	rhickey	right
16:25	chouser	:error-handler is better than :error-callback
16:25	rhickey	yes
16:25	kotarak	technomancy: it works! the name is not interesting. clojuresque 1.1.0 pushed to clojars. :) (formerly known as clj-gradle)
16:26	duncanm	technomancy: sigh, am i doing something stupid? M-x slime isn't workign for me ;-P
16:27	chouser	setWatcherErrorHandler in ARef instead of Agent?
16:27	ordnungswidrig	duncanm: what's your error?
16:27	duncanm	ordnungswidrig: failed to download clojure jars
16:28	duncanm	oh doh
16:28	duncanm	now it's working
16:28	ordnungswidrig	duncanm: g
16:28	rhickey	chouser: yes, and IRef
16:28	rhickey	actually, no
16:29	rhickey	this is just an async problem
16:29	rhickey	all sync things can just let exceptions flow out
16:29	rhickey	so, on Agent only
16:30	chouser	yes, ok.
16:32	technomancy	hiredman: yeah... the authors emailed me. it's an interesting project, but I don't think it's that relevant to clojure.
16:32	chouser	validator throws: error-fn is called, pending sends are dropped.
16:33	rhickey	chouser: sounds right
16:33	chouser	but ... watchers are still triggered if error-fn changes the state.
16:33	krumholt__	why does (eval (fn [] "test")) not yield "test" as a result? instead it returns what i would expect from (eval '(fn [] "test")). could someone explain that to me?
16:35	chouser	and sends queued by error-fns and by watchers triggered by error-fns are ... released? disallowed!? this all feels a bit wrong.
16:35	somnium	krumholt__: eval != invoke, try ((eval '(fn [] :foo)))
16:36	chouser	krumholt__: (fn ...) returns a value, a function. Eval'ing a value just returns the value.
16:37	chouser	krumholt__: or: (eval '((fn [] :foo)))
16:37	krumholt__	oh ok thanks. a function is a value eval returns that value makes sense thanks
16:37	rhickey	chouser: let's break it down
16:38	rhickey	the reason to allow the handler to 'fix' the state is because re-queueing a new action will change the (possibly important) order
16:38	chouser	not sure what that means, but error-fn inserting a state change feels like the source of complexity to me
16:38	chouser	heh
16:39	rhickey	pending sends may be an incomplete set, there's no way to know, so if your action sends and might throw, you should have your own internal handling
16:39	chouser	ok, yes. There's no better way to indicate which sends you want to do than your own appropriately grouped try/catches
16:40	chouser	in the action
16:40	rhickey	so pending sends have to be chucked, but the one case you couldn't self-handle is validation failure
16:41	chouser	validators can't send because they're supposed to be pure
16:41	chouser	so no pending issue there
16:41	somnium	question to vimclojure users: is there a recommended way to manage the classpath for standard ./src ./lib ./build project structure?
16:42	kotarak	somnium: the launcher adheres to CLASSPATH env var, the new one also reads a .clojure file in the current directory.
16:42	chouser	does the same apply then to error-fn? can be a pure fn of the state and exception but shouldn't throw or send?
16:43	rhickey	validation failure is a programming error, so finding out about about it is most important
16:43	kotarak	somnium: you can also set CLOJURE_EXT to load jars in that directory
16:43	rhickey	error-fns aren't pure, in that they may frequently do queue I/O
16:44	rhickey	but people use agents as queues...
16:44	chouser	is an error-fixer different than an error-queuer?
16:44	rhickey	handler implies both
16:44	chouser	yes I know
16:45	chouser	I'm wondering if that's an bad conflation
16:45	ikitat	I'm at a loss how to make use of clojure.test/use-fixtures http://paste.pocoo.org/show/152745/ gives me "Unable to resolve symbol: x in this contex"
16:46	rhickey	I think if it is clear - "I fixed this" vs "it never happened", then other decisions become easier
16:46	hiredman	ikitat: I don't know anything about test-is
16:46	hiredman	but that looks like an issue of lexical v. dynamic scope
16:46	chouser	rhickey: ok, yes.
16:47	rhickey	I fixed it - all messages go out, it never happened - none do
16:47	chouser	yes
16:47	somnium	kotarak: where can I read on .clojure file in the current dir? I was thinking of writing a alternate bash script similar to swank-clojure-project (locate build.xml/pom.xml and build classpath).
16:47	hiredman	but then again, I don't know what I am talking about
16:47	somnium	kotarak: btw, mine breaks if I open a random .clj file not already in CLASSPATH, so maybe I have something configured wrong
16:48	rhickey	so, state identity is too weak
16:48	chouser	do, do you indicate which you're doing by returning an = value, or is that too much magic
16:48	chouser	yeah
16:48	rhickey	or at least unclear
16:48	kotarak	somnium: it's not a bug, it's a feature. You can turn it off in the latest bleeding-edge.
16:48	chouser	if you didn't fix it, you have no new value to provide
16:49	ikitat	hiredman, yeah, I figured that it's a scoping issue, the documentation for test-is isn't clear (to me) how this can be used
16:49	somnium	kotarak: I'm not qualified to have an opinion on bug/feature status at this point :) I'll try the bleeding edge, does it work with new branch?
16:49	chouser	I guess a single handler might need to look at the exception to know what it's doing, so providing separate fixer-fn from logger-fn is bad
16:49	rhickey	but as your use case indicated, sometimes a valid work step doesn't change the state
16:49	kotarak	somnium: yes, but the highlighting is not 100% up-to-date.
16:50	hiredman	,(doc clojure.test/user-fixtures)
16:50	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:50	kotarak	somnium: this will fix your problem: http://bitbucket.org/kotarak/vimclojure/changeset/f80ecd0532b7/
16:50	rhickey	I think return the exception to indicate 'didn't happen', else state and all messages go
16:50	hiredman	,(doc clojure.test/use-fixtures)
16:50	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:50	chouser	hm!! return the exception.
16:51	rhickey	acts as an implicit notFixed flag
16:51	chouser	just too unlikely that someone wants to store that particular exception in the agent? better than re-throwing it?
16:51	kotarak	somnium: ad parsing poms: I don't see this is as the responsibility of vc. The user has to setup his classpath with the ng-server. This can for example done via some target for maven, ant or gradle.
16:51	kotarak	somnium: parsing poms is a nightmare with vim.
16:51	rhickey	we don't want rethrow that's for sure, it's still handled
16:51	rhickey	just not fixed
16:52	chouser	treat that particular exception different from any other exception then?
16:52	rhickey	?
16:53	chouser	if the error-fn returns an exception other than the one passed in, that becomes the new value of the agent.
16:53	kotarak	somnium: as for the .clojure, I must confess, that I haven't pushed the changeset, yet. sorry. My mistake.
16:53	rhickey	we could have a return-this-value-if-not-fixed, but seems a bit much
16:53	chouser	yes, I can see that.
16:53	hiredman	ikitat: it looks like a fixture is just a normal function
16:53	ikitat	the only usage of use-fixtures in clojure-contrib seems to modify ns and that is the one and only case I can find.
16:53	somnium	kotarak: ah ok, well I threw together an alternative nailgun launcher that just exports command line args to classpath, and that seemed to work
16:53	hiredman	so you will need to setup x as a dynamically rebound var
16:53	rhickey	the other option is the agent itself
16:53	chouser	heh
16:54	rhickey	but people get so confused already between the agent and its state
16:54	hiredman	ikitat: http://clojure.org/vars
16:54	chouser	I'm ok with the exception itself, esp. for an experimental feature
16:54	rhickey	what is getting passed - the agent or its state?
16:55	somnium	kotarak: oh, my idea wasn't to parse .pom, just find it, and then add ./src ./lib etc to classpath, then launch nailgun, for convenience
16:56	chouser	seems like if you've got an agent managing exceptions as values and your actions throw exceptions and you've got an error-fn and you want to fix up the error, well, you already used up all your grace.
16:56	chouser	rhickey: patch in assemble passes agent to error-fn, but I think that's wrong, should be state.
16:57	chouser	in assembla
16:57	rhickey	it's not exceptions as values, its the identical exception that was passed to the handler, not by type at all
16:57	chouser	yes
16:57	kotarak	somnium: ah. Ok. I just have CLASSPATH=src:classes CLOJURE_EXT=lib and I start the ng server from the project root. Universally working for all my projects. :)
16:57	rhickey	so unless the agent is going to use that specific exception object as its state...
16:58	chouser	right
16:58	chouser	loony
16:58	rhickey	chouser: this was a simpler idea when it was to be a queue
16:58	rhickey	no question about the activity of the handler itself
16:59	rhickey	for instance, we're still not good if the handler wants to send the fix as a new action
16:59	chouser	ok, and watchers aren't fired until after the error-fn, and only if error-fn doesn't return the sentinel
17:00	chouser	the handler can either send (if it wants it queue at the end) or do an action directly, can't it?
17:00	ikitat	hiredman: it seems the right thing to do is (def x) (def y) (use-fixtures :each ... (binding [x 2 y 3] ... ) I was hoping to have a way to not bleed x and y into the namespace
17:00	rhickey	chouser: a reentrant send? where does it go?
17:01	somnium	kotarak: ok, that is simpler. thanks
17:01	Anniepoo	hmm... ok, beginner question
17:02	chouser	if error-fn does a send and returns a fixed-up value, all the actions's queued sends and the error-fns sends all get released, don't they?
17:02	rhickey	it will be in pending sends, which aren't going out since not fixed
17:02	chouser	oh, you're saying if error-fn wants to send but not fix
17:02	chouser	bleh
17:02	rhickey	I guess it would have to know to return the existing state
17:03	rhickey	also, handed only the state, to whom does it send?
17:10	ordnungswidrig	I have lengthy call of ((-> f wrap1 wrap2 wrap3 wrap4) arg) where wrap* are higher order functions that wrap a given function. How can I trace invokations of the wrappers easily?
17:12	hiredman	(doto prn)
17:12	chouser	rhickey: agent since we're in-thread
17:16	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: say how?
17:17	rhickey	chouser: it seems like there are more facets - like would people still want to be able to neuter the agent for further actions? what about other things in its queue
17:17	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: or something like that
17:18	ordnungswidrig	g I'll try
17:18	hiredman	((fn [x] #(doto (x) prn)))
17:19	hiredman	,(-> p ((partial partial inc)) ((fn [x] #(doto (x) prn))))
17:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: p in this context
17:19	hiredman	,(-> 1 ((partial partial inc)) ((fn [x] #(doto (x) prn))))
17:19	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__5995$fn__5997$fn__5999 sandbox$eval__5995$fn__5997$fn__5999@15fc68a>
17:19	hiredman	,((-> 1 ((partial partial inc)) ((fn [x] #(doto (x) prn)))))
17:19	clojurebot	2
17:19	clojurebot	2
17:20	rhickey	also, if you 'fix' in order to send a true fixing action, other messages and the watchers will go out
17:22	michaeljaaka	hi, how to easily make passing parameters to function by symbols?
17:22	michaeljaaka	I have looked into core.clj
17:22	rhickey	in a queue model, there'd be no immediate fixing, and thus no sends at all, but we'd have to send the agent itself since dequeuing on another thread
17:22	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: thanks.
17:23	michaeljaaka	and found something like (defn me[ & args] (let [ x (apply hash-map args)] ... and later (:sym x)
17:23	michaeljaaka	is it ok?
17:23	michaeljaaka	or is there any easier way
17:24	michaeljaaka	btw. I was activly writing to clojure google group but my last two post didn't appear - am I banned there, spamming there or something?
17:25	hiredman	michaeljaaka: you can use straight up map destructuring
17:25	hiredman	~destructuring
17:25	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let
17:27	michaeljaaka	ok, I will try it again, last time when was trying to play with function parameters nothing worked for me ;(
17:34	michaeljaaka	"Clojure supports abstract structural binding, often called destructuring, in let binding lists, fn parameter lists,"
17:34	michaeljaaka	(defn testfun[ & a :as e ] (println (:dom a)))
17:35	michaeljaaka	expressions given in example doesn't work for fn parameter lists
17:35	hiredman	michaeljaaka: then read the example again
17:36	michaeljaaka	ok :) (note: I understand examples for let binding)
17:36	djork	michaeljaaka: let/fn have the same destructuring rules
17:37	hiredman	michaeljaaka: you are missing en tire set of []
17:38	hiredman	so obviously you did not read the example closely enough
17:39	michaeljaaka	hmmm it is obvious that for let
17:39	michaeljaaka	I have to pass second []
17:39	djork	,((fn [[a b & c :as d]] (println a b c d)) [:foo :bar: bat :baz])
17:39	clojurebot	Invalid token: :bar:
17:39	michaeljaaka	which initializes left form
17:39	djork	oops hah
17:39	devlinsf	Hey, how do I create fields in a gen-class?
17:39	djork	,((fn [[a b & c :as d]] (println a b c d)) [:foo :bar bat :baz])
17:39	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: bat in this context
17:39	djork	I fail it
17:39	djork	,((fn [[a b & c :as d]] (println a b c d)) [:foo :bar :bat :baz])
17:39	clojurebot	:foo :bar (:bat :baz) [:foo :bar :bat :baz]
17:40	alexyk	somnium: ping
17:40	djork	michaeljaaka: the rules for let and fn bindings are the same
17:40	alexyk	I get integers back from json as 2.3275269E7, how can I convert them back to ints?
17:41	alexyk	do we have longs, too?
17:41	michaeljaaka	yes, I have noticed now
17:41	michaeljaaka	that I was missing double []
17:41	michaeljaaka	[[ all goes here ]]
17:42	somnium	alexyk: hi
17:43	alexyk	somnium: so I'm wondering about getting back ints and longs from json ^^
17:43	alexyk	from mongo
17:43	alexyk	although it looks like mongo returns floats
17:44	alexyk	how in clojure do you check the type of x?
17:44	devlinsf	(class x)
17:44	alexyk	yep
17:44	devlinsf	,(class {})
17:44	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
17:44	devlinsf	Ooops
17:45	alexyk	so if I do (def x <very long int>) will it make it long?
17:46	alexyk	I see if I do (def x (long <very long int>)) then it does
17:46	the-kenny	,(class (bigdec 1e100))
17:46	clojurebot	java.math.BigDecimal
17:46	hiredman	(class 1e100M)
17:46	hiredman	,(class 1e100M)
17:46	clojurebot	java.math.BigDecimal
17:47	alexyk	I just care for long and int for now :)
17:47	alexyk	(long 2.173617511E9)
17:47	alexyk	,(long 2.173617511E9)
17:47	clojurebot	2173617511
17:47	alexyk	,(int 2.173617511E9)
17:47	clojurebot	2147483647
17:48	alexyk	see wha'am sayin'?
17:48	alexyk	I get back floats from JSON and need to make them either int or long again
17:48	alexyk	and I don't want to waste bits
17:48	alexyk	I guess I'll just use longs for the long ones :)
17:49	somnium	alexyk: I'm not sure, I just tried a test and it came back as expected
17:49	alexyk	somnium: do you see integrals? I have floats for twit ids and user ids
17:49	alexyk	:id 2.173617511E9, ...
17:50	somnium	-> (insert :nums {:x (int 1)})
17:50	alexyk	ah, right, you do insert via clojure. I've used mongoimport.
17:50	alexyk	And it made all numbers floating-point.
17:50	somnium	ok, so not my fault I hope :)
17:50	alexyk	somnium: you're fine :)
17:51	alexyk	I just wonder if you tried mongoimport-ed json
17:51	hiredman	:\|
17:51	hiredman	best not to be doing float -> int/long conversions
17:52	alexyk	hiredman: well, it's a cheap way to dodge the question for mongo, I guess. All the digits are there, at least.
17:52	hiredman	:(
17:52	somnium	hmm, java.lang.BigDecimals do get converted to doubles though
17:53	somnium	makes me want to rewrite the encoders in clojure even more
17:53	alexyk	somnium: what do defprotocol and deftype do which would speed it up?
17:53	somnium	I've actually taken to using strings and then (read-string) in clojure for sensitive numbers
17:53	ordnungswidrig	Is there a function to flatten nested lists? Or sth to convert sth to a one-element-list unless it's a list?
17:54	somnium	alexyk: check assembla and lots of discussion in the logs here and the mailing list
17:54	alexyk	somnium: ok :)
17:56	michaeljaaka	,(defn me[ { :keys [ one two ] } m] (println (:one m)))(me :one 2 :two 3 )
17:56	clojurebot	DENIED
17:56	michaeljaaka	,(defn me[ { :keys [ one two ] } m] (println (:one m)))
17:56	clojurebot	DENIED
17:57	ordnungswidrig	michaeljaaka: you must not use defn
17:57	michaeljaaka	ok :) I noticed :)
17:57	michaeljaaka	,(fn[ { :keys [ one two ] } m] (println (:one m)))(me :one 2 :two 3 )
17:57	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval__6052$fn__6055 sandbox$eval__6052$fn__6055@1655d7e>
17:58	michaeljaaka	,((fn[ { :keys [ one two ] } m] (println (:one m)))(me :one 2 :two 3 ))
17:58	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: me in this context
17:58	michaeljaaka	,((fn[ { :keys [ one two ] } m] (println (:one m)))( :one 2 :two 3 ))
17:58	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :one
18:00	michaeljaaka	why this is wrong?
18:01	hiredman	(:one 2 :two 3)
18:01	ordnungswidrig	michaeljaaka: the form ( :one 2 :two 3)
18:01	michaeljaaka	how I should def fun so I have use (myfun :one 2 :two 3)
18:01	michaeljaaka	I don't want to play with clojurebot (ieave him alone)
18:02	michaeljaaka	I want just to write one stupid function :( I almost done writing cool program and ended with many args
18:02	michaeljaaka	and wanted to pass them with symbols
18:02	michaeljaaka	to make it more readable
18:04	somnium	,(-> {:one 1} ((fn [{:keys [one]}] (println "one is" one))))
18:04	clojurebot	one is 1
18:05	spuz	Hello, all, I've written an article about how I went about optimising my Clojure fractal renderer: http://developmentjungle.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/optimising-mandelbrot/
18:05	michaeljaaka	somnium: it is cool
18:06	spuz	It's most likely that I'm still doing newbie things so any and all feedback is very welcome!
18:06	michaeljaaka	but how to call it in terms of usage (myfun :one 1 :two 2)
18:06	michaeljaaka	etc.
18:07	somnium	michaeljaaka: easiest would be to use defnk in clojure.contrib.def
18:07	michaeljaaka	somnium: anyways thanks, you explained how to use symboled binding
18:07	michaeljaaka	oh, so destructuring doesn't help here
18:07	michaeljaaka	just I wanted to know that
18:07	somnium	it does, defnk is a macro that destructures for you
18:08	hiredman	I wish people would just use map destructuring
18:08	somnium	you have to do [arg1 ... argn & kwargs]
18:08	hiredman	intead of whatever macros, or apply hash-map
18:08	hiredman	instead
18:09	michaeljaaka	ohh, so by default hash-map is a pure solution
18:09	michaeljaaka	just wanted to know that
18:09	michaeljaaka	apply on hash-map
18:09	somnium	hiredman: people like sugar?
18:09	hiredman	michaeljaaka: no!
18:09	hiredman	apply hash-map is horrible
18:10	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys one}] one) {:one 1})
18:10	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
18:10	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys [one]}] one) {:one 1})
18:10	clojurebot	1
18:10	hiredman	:P
18:10	somnium	hiredman: the nicest thing about defnk is the dryness, default args and automatic symbols in ~@
18:10	michaeljaaka	but is used in core.clj
18:10	michaeljaaka	i like to learn by example
18:11	hiredman	:\|
18:11	hiredman	spuz: looks nice
18:11	michaeljaaka	,( (fn[ { :keys [ one two ] } m] (println one)) [ :one 2 :two 3] )
18:11	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--6103$fn
18:11	michaeljaaka	doesn't work
18:12	hiredman	for many many reasons
18:12	hiredman	michaeljaaka: I think you should become more familar with more basic things before you start with destructuring
18:13	michaeljaaka	well for example?
18:13	hiredman	for example, [:one 2 :two 3] is a vector
18:14	ordnungswidrig	spuz: nice post.
18:14	hiredman	the fn you created there takes two args, but you only passing it a single vector
18:14	hiredman	even if the fn took one arg, you trying to do map destructuring on a vector
18:15	spuz	hiredman: thanks, I think the main interesting part is digging into Clojure's internals with VisualVM. Of course I'm not an expert but I thought it would be useful to show my findings
18:16	hiredman	spuz: yeah, exploring clojure's call tree++
18:17	michaeljaaka	ok
18:19	michaeljaaka	I will just use
18:19	michaeljaaka	,((fn[ & a ] (let [ b (apply (hash-map) a) ] :one b )) :one 2)
18:19	clojurebot	2
18:19	ordnungswidrig	good night everyone
18:19	michaeljaaka	bye!
18:19	hiredman	michaeljaaka: :\|
18:19	kzar	<h1>I wonder what happens to the logs</h1></body></html>
18:19	hiredman	(hash-map) is a bug there
18:20	michaeljaaka	so it is in core.clj :)
18:20	hiredman	no
18:20	hiredman	the idiom is (apply hash-map …
18:20	hiredman	not (apply (hash-map) …
18:20	hiredman	seriously
18:21	michaeljaaka	ah
18:21	michaeljaaka	ok
18:21	hiredman	you need more practice just reading and understanding clojure code
18:21	michaeljaaka	in core.clj is hash-map not (hash-map)
18:21	hiredman	I would suggest sitting down with project euler or similar
18:21	michaeljaaka	yeah, practicing :) just writing google map reduce in clojure
18:21	michaeljaaka	almost done ;)
18:22	hiredman	don't worry about destructuring or keyword args till you can read and write code
18:22	hiredman	michaeljaaka: I can almost guarantee it will be full of bugs if your interactions with clojurebot are a representative sample
18:22	michaeljaaka	with true distribution between machines
18:23	michaeljaaka	no problem ;) I'm just learning language, often just asking and making stupid questions
18:23	michaeljaaka	but finally gots alwasy this "oh this is it"
18:24	hiredman	java.lang.IllegalStateException: case already refers to: #'clojure.core/case in namespace: ring.jetty (jetty.clj:1)
18:24	hiredman	grrrr
18:26	_ato	michaeljaaka: btw, something I've noticed with your code is the spacing. Normal Clojure style is to do: (defn [arg1 arg2] ...) rather than (defn[ arg1 arg2 ] ...) which you seem to be doing. Not a huge deal but if you get used to the same style everyone else uses than it will be easier for you to read their code and for them to read your code. :-)
18:27	michaeljaaka	yeah, I must change it, the same is with writing doc for function, I need to learn writing doc before fn binding
18:27	michaeljaaka	fn params
18:27	the-kenny	Are there some "coding conventions" for clojure like for Common Lisp?
18:31	KirinDave1	How does one go about converting a set to a list?
18:31	_ato	the-kenny: not specific clojure ones AFAIK. The conventional style is basically the same as Lisp/Scheme style though: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
18:31	_ato	,(seq #{1 2 3})
18:31	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
18:32	KirinDave1	Ah, I see.
18:32	the-kenny	_ato: Yeah, I know the conventions for Lisp, but I think Clojure needs some improvements (hashmaps, for example)
18:32	_ato	KirinDave1: ^
18:32	the-kenny	Maybe I'll start a page in the Wiki
18:32	the-kenny	:)
18:33	_ato	the-kenny: good idea. :-) Do you mean either breaking the line or using commas with hashmaps: {:k1 :v1, :k2 :v2} to pair keys and values?
18:35	the-kenny	_ato: Yeah, and also how to write and indent hashmaps with one element per line.. clojure-mode seems to have problems with "{\n:foo 42\n}" so I'm using "{:foo 42\n:bar 23} currently.
18:35	the-kenny	I'm interested in what other people think and use
18:36	Chousuke	I think {:foo 'bar\n :zonk ...} is the most common
18:36	Chousuke	generally, you don't separate the opening bracket from the first item
18:37	_ato	yeah, I tend to treat () [] {} #{} etc all the same way. no whitespace or newlines at the start or end
18:37	Chousuke	some people seem to like writing function definitions like (defn foo[params] ...) but I think that's just misleading :)
18:37	Chousuke	it makes foo[bar] look like some kind of special syntax
18:38	the-kenny	Yes, it reminds me of C++ or Java.
18:40	KirinDave1	,(isa? #"" java.util.regex.Pattern)
18:40	clojurebot	false
18:41	KirinDave1	(class #"")
18:41	KirinDave1	,(class #"")
18:41	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
18:41	KirinDave1	So uh, how do I know if I have a regex?
18:41	Chousuke	heh, that lisp style guide says to avoid point-free style :P
18:41	_ato	,(instance? #"" java.util.regex.Pattern)
18:41	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.util.regex.Pattern cannot be cast to java.lang.Class
18:42	_ato	did I get backwards
18:42	_ato	,(instance? java.util.regex.Pattern #"")
18:42	clojurebot	true
18:42	KirinDave1	Ahh
18:42	KirinDave1	Yeah I guess that's it then.
18:42	KirinDave1	Weird, I thought that isa? did that too.
18:42	_ato	,(isa? java.util.regex.Pattern #"")
18:42	clojurebot	false
18:44	_ato	I agree with generally avoiding point free style. I don't mind the occasionally partial, or comp with just two functions in it, but if you chain together a whole line of comps and partials it's really hard to understand what's going on
18:45	Chousuke	the problem is made worse by the fact that point-free style in clojure is just verbose :P
18:51	KirinDave1	:\
18:51	KirinDave1	The most awkward part of learning a new language is in those first concrete modules you write and you go ":\ Man I wrote this the wrong way."
18:52	tomoj	is it evil to rely on hashCode for vectors being consistent across JVM executions?
18:53	Chousuke	yes?
18:54	Chousuke	IIRC the contract for hashCode specifically states that, but I'm not sure.
18:54	tomoj	yeah the contract specifically states that it doesn't need to be consistent, but it seems that it is for vectors
18:55	Chousuke	That seems very likely to break.
18:56	tomoj	guess i can prn and hash that string.. hmm
18:58	hiredman	hmmm
18:58	hiredman	actually
18:59	technomancy	clojurebot: style is http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
18:59	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
19:00	technomancy	hiredman: we're coming up on clojurebot's first birthday soon, aren't we?
19:02	hiredman	clojurebot: if you where a super hero what would your origin story be?
19:03	hiredman	long sentences like that peg the fuzzer hard
19:03	technomancy	is it still thinking?
19:03	hiredman	yep
19:04	somnium	is he smart enough for s/where/were?
19:04	hiredman	java's cpu time is falling
19:04	hiredman	huh
19:04	hiredman	out of heap space
19:04	hiredman	:(
19:05	the-kenny	:(
19:05	hiredman	clojurebot: your origin story?
19:05	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-21.html#13:04
19:05	hiredman	huh
19:05	technomancy	oh, my clojure birthday was last week!
19:06	technomancy	I thought it was this week. time to cancel the party. =(
19:06	the-kenny	If clojurebot gains the ability to modify his own source code, he will surely become skynet
19:06	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurebot \|has\| a lot of features
19:06	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:07	somnium	~terminator
19:07	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:08	the-kenny	clojurebot: You \|will not\| become skynet
19:08	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:08	technomancy	"so far it's hard to keep a bug alive long enough for a tracker to be useful. They tend to be fixed within a day or two, if not hours or minutes." <= from a year ago. =(
19:09	_ato	:(
19:10	hiredman	clojurebot: you?
19:10	clojurebot	You will not become skynet
19:10	the-kenny	clojurebot: Do you plan to evolve to skynet?
19:10	clojurebot	You will not become skynet
19:11	danlarkin	technomancy: ha!!
19:15	somnium	clojurebot: clojurebot \|will\| become skynet
19:15	clojurebot	Alles klar
19:17	the-kenny	Oh no :(
19:17	somnium	its kind of scary he responded with Alles klar
19:20	the-kenny	Ja, das stimmt.
19:20	the-kenny	;)
20:02	cark	hiredman: what are the pipes for when talking to clojurebot ?
20:02	krumholt__	,(((fn [r] ((fn [f] (f f)) (fn [f] (r (fn [x] ((f f) x)))))) (fn [f] (fn [n] (if (= n 0) 1 (* n (f (- n 1))))))) 5)
20:02	clojurebot	120
20:18	hiredman	cark: arbitrary predicates
20:18	hiredman	clojurebot defaults to X is Y
20:18	hiredman	but with the pipes you can say X \| Z \| Y
20:18	cark	oh i see
20:19	cark	clojurebot: clojurebot?
20:19	clojurebot	clojurebot has a lot of features
20:19	cark	allright thanks =)
20:19	cark	does it do the "also" part automatically now ?
20:20	cark	i mean, no overwriting existing definitions ?
20:22	chouser	rhickey: if we give up on handlers fixing state, whether queue or synchronous model, most of the complexity goes away. error actions always "never happened", no watchers, no sends
20:22	hiredman	cark: yes
20:23	hiredman	you can remove a definition if you know the exact tripple
20:23	hiredman	triple
20:23	cark	ah so i'll need to be sneaky when adding definitions aboutu you !
20:23	cark	thanks anyways =)
20:29	Anniepoo	,(set! ns "tacos for lunch")
20:29	clojurebot	"tacos for lunch"
20:30	Anniepoo	,(+ 1 2)
20:30	clojurebot	3
20:30	Anniepoo	8c)
20:32	tomoj	mm tacos
20:32	chouser	what have you done!?
20:32	chouser	,`foo
20:32	clojurebot	sandbox/foo
20:32	chouser	hm
20:33	Anniepoo	just wondered if that crashed clojurebot
20:33	Anniepoo	I'm using hiredman's sandbox for a thing I'm building
20:33	tomoj	(set! ns "foo") blows up for me
20:34	tomoj	and ns is left unchanged
20:34	Anniepoo	throws a java exception, yet
20:34	tomoj	,ns
20:34	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
20:35	tomoj	weird that you still get a return value
20:36	Anniepoo	I'm still trying to find a better way to prevent an evaluation from making global changes than clojurebot uses
20:36	Anniepoo	clojurebot does a macroexpand, then looks for 'bad forms'
20:36	Anniepoo	this seems iffy to me
20:36	hiredman	it is
20:36	cark	what's your use case for sandboxing ?
20:37	Anniepoo	I'm trying to make an 'injectable code' server
20:37	Anniepoo	you send me a form, I evaluate it and send you the result
20:37	cark	does the injected code need to be fast ?
20:38	Anniepoo	hmmm.... why, you know a slow way?
20:38	cark	yes =)
20:38	Anniepoo	what's the slow way?
20:38	cark	do your own lisp interpreter, only reuse the clojure reader
20:39	cark	sounds like a lot of work, but it really isn't
20:39	Anniepoo	that might actually work
20:39	Anniepoo	it's not as elegant as allowing arbitrary clojure
20:39	Anniepoo	I could reverse hiredman's scheme, make a list of everything that's OK
20:40	cark	but you have perfect control
20:40	hiredman	you could send the code to appengine to run :P
20:40	hiredman	let google worry about the sandboxing
20:40	Anniepoo	what's appengine?
20:40	hiredman	~google appengine
20:40	clojurebot	First, out of 327000 results is:
20:40	clojurebot	Google App Engine - Google Code
20:40	clojurebot	http://code.google.com/appengine/
20:40	hiredman	googles hosting thing
20:41	Anniepoo	ah, ok, sorry, didn't get it, yes yes
20:41	hiredman	it's free up to a certain point
20:41	hiredman	which is pretty cool
20:41	Anniepoo	well, I'm acutally not concerned about the java sandboxing, which, as you know, is pretty trivial
20:41	Anniepoo	it's actually a bigger problem to sandbox the clojure
20:42	Anniepoo	in an ideal world I'd make a new JVM environment for each session
20:42	hiredman	yeah, but you can just ship the clojure code to google, and it's their problem
20:42	Anniepoo	so if you ruin your environment it's your problem
20:42	Anniepoo	no, I'm not worried about violating the java sandbox
20:43	Anniepoo	I'm worried about somebody clobbering my clojure server
20:43	hiredman	I know, but the clojure code can do whatever it wants on google's jvm in the sky
20:43	hiredman	google limits execution time to something like 30 seconds
20:43	hiredman	and has other limitations as well
20:43	Anniepoo	ok, I could do the same thing locally, spawn a jvm
20:43	Anniepoo	and install a security manager, then eval the code
20:43	cark	mhh you can instanciate a clojure environment from java, so i guess you could do it from clojure as well, so i guess you'd get a new instance of the whole thing ?
20:44	Anniepoo	that works, but is massively inefficient
20:44	hiredman	I bet shipping the code to google would actually be faster than ramping up a new jvm
20:44	Anniepoo	good point, cark
20:44	Anniepoo	if you can do that
20:44	Anniepoo	but I haven't figured out how to
20:45	Anniepoo	how would I make a new environment? That's what I really want
20:45	hiredman	make a new classloader and load clojure.lang.RT
20:45	Anniepoo	really?
20:45	Anniepoo	Hmm....
20:45	Anniepoo	OK
20:45	Anniepoo	sounds like deep doings, but I'm up for it
20:47	cark	mhh nope =(
20:47	cark	http://markmail.org/message/madkidutwpp2yd44?q=thread:tx23zaxf77b6widh
20:49	hiredman	I dunno about that, but clojure runtime is initilized via a static init block in RT
20:49	Anniepoo	ok, now gotta find some sorta docs on clojure.lang.RT
20:49	hiredman	pffft
20:49	hiredman	docs
20:52	Anniepoo	8cP Somehow reading the source code to RT strikes me as likely to induce paranoid schizophrenia or warts or soemthing
20:52	hiredman	shrug
20:55	hiredman	(== clojure.lang.RT (-> (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) (.loadClass "clojure.lang.RT")))
20:55	hiredman	er
20:55	hiredman	user=> (== clojure.lang.RT (-> (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) (.loadClass "clojure.lang.RT")))
20:55	hiredman	false
20:55	hiredman	user=>
20:58	Anniepoo	ooh, are you saying that if I call RT:load that's all I gotta do here?
20:59	hiredman	possibly
21:01	Anniepoo	hmm... Ah, you're saying make a new classloader and then use it to load RT, which will make a 'new' RT class?
21:01	Anniepoo	I wonder if that makes a memory leak
21:02	Anniepoo	after I've processed a few thousand of these I've got my memory full of class definitions of RT
21:03	hiredman	user=> (-> (ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader) (.loadClass "clojure.lang.RT") (wall-hack-method :var [String String] nil "clojure.core" "+") (apply '(1 2 3 4)))
21:03	hiredman	10
21:03	hiredman	user=>
21:04	hiredman	actually
21:06	hiredman	you'll want (proxy [ClassLoader] [(ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader)])
21:06	Anniepoo	ok, I'm getting 10% of this, but will go do my homework. Keep talkin!
21:06	hiredman	Classes can be GC'ed, but I forget the provisos
21:07	Anniepoo	I'll find out how
21:07	chouser	classes get GCed when their classloader gets GCed
21:07	chouser	I think
21:08	hiredman	ok, yeah, that is why you need the proxy
21:08	hiredman	so you have an instance of the classloader you can let go of
21:08	Anniepoo	ah
21:08	hiredman	instead of the bare system classloader
21:09	Anniepoo	nifty nifty!!!
21:09	Anniepoo	that's what I've been looking for
21:10	hiredman	maybe not
21:10	Anniepoo	hmm, why not?
21:11	hiredman	it looks like altering the metadata on the var named by clojure.core/+ from the new RT alters the meta data on the old one
21:11	hiredman	(implying they are the same)
21:11	hiredman	:\|
21:12	Anniepoo	8c( not good
21:12	hiredman	oh
21:12	hiredman	I wonder if its a result of var interning from compile to runtime
21:12	hiredman	anyway, shrug
21:13	hiredman	ah!
21:13	hiredman	yeah, it must be
21:13	_ato	are you trying to run two seperate clojure instances in the one JVM?
21:13	_ato	http://gist.github.com/240818
21:13	_ato	^ that's what I was playing with the other day
21:14	Anniepoo	wow, sweet, ato!
21:16	Anniepoo	ok, this looks promising.
21:17	Anniepoo	So, I wonder what the memory overhead will be for each of these instances I have laying around
21:18	_ato	note that you have to use java interop stuff to "talk" to the "inner" Clojure as they're completely segregated, the data structures in the outer clojure can't be passed directly to the inner one AFAIK. But you could of course write a function that prn's some code to a string then does a read-string and eval on it in the inner Clojure.
21:19	Anniepoo	yes,
21:19	Anniepoo	I'm going to be evaling a string anyway
21:19	Anniepoo	I want to make a sort of 'rmi' for clojure
21:20	Anniepoo	you send me a string, I eval it (suitably sandboxed) and return the value to you
21:20	Anniepoo	the hard part is the 'suitably sandboxed'
21:22	_ato	ah yeah, you'd probably to proxy URLClassLoader to setup it's permissions to block access to files and sockets and such
21:22	_ato	also note that creating a fresh classloader and loading a fresh copy of clojure in it can take a while, it's about 600ms on my PC
21:22	Anniepoo	oochie. 8cP afraid of that
21:24	Anniepoo	maybe I can make a custom version of RT
21:26	Anniepoo	take all the static members and swap them out
21:27	hiredman	:\|
21:27	hiredman	the time is not in loading RT, it is loading everything else
21:27	hiredman	when you load RT you are loading all the classes clojure uses
21:28	Anniepoo	yes, I suppose. And it smells of back to the bad-forms method
21:28	hiredman	and for interning stuff like Var you need to have them seperate
21:28	Anniepoo	the interpreter seems to make more and more sense
21:29	Anniepoo	8cD What we need is clojure in clojure!
21:29	hiredman	you could pool RTs
21:29	Anniepoo	no, because the point is to have a 'fresh' one
21:29	_ato	you could pre-create a pool of them
21:29	_ato	use one
21:29	_ato	and throw it away
21:29	hiredman	spin up two or three, every time you spin up one
21:29	_ato	create a new
21:29	_ato	etc
21:30	Anniepoo	true, but that limits my sustained rate, and works the server
21:30	Anniepoo	I'm beginning to think the interpreter way is the right way
21:30	_ato	there might be a way to put most of the classes in a parent classloader and just the stuff that changes like RT itself in multiple child classloaders
21:30	Anniepoo	make a toy lisp interpreter in Clojure.
21:31	_ato	so they share most classes
21:32	_ato	actually that probably wouldn't work as RT and the collections are pretty tightly coupled, the collections call into RT
21:32	kzar	Kind of a dumb question but I'm writing a simple recursive function and I'm trying to create a lazy sequence of numbers. I tried doing something like (lazy-seq x (recur (+ x 1))) but it doesn't work because x is an integer. What's the right way around that?
21:33	_ato	use the function name instead of recur
21:33	hiredman	kzar: it doesn't work because you can't call recur within lazy-seq
21:33	_ato	recur does tail call optimisation, but a lazy-seq exits the function so it doesn't make sense
21:34	Anniepoo	well, thanks all, this has been helpful. I'll explore the options
21:34	_ato	oh
21:34	_ato	and you need: (lazy-seq (cons x (recur (+ x 1)))))
21:34	_ato	kzar: lazy-seq doesn't cons for you
21:35	_ato	err, I of course mean: (lazy-seq (cons x (my-fn (+ x 1)))))
21:35	hiredman	"Elapsed time: 1.846638 msecs"
21:35	kzar	Sweet gotya, thanks
21:36	hiredman	RT loads pretty fast here
21:36	_ato	hiredman: ah awesome
21:36	_ato	maybe it's fast if you use the same version
21:36	_ato	it can probably used the already loaded classes
21:37	_ato	I was loading 1.0 inside 1.1
21:38	zaphar_ps	is the clojure documentation available as a downlaod anywhere?
21:38	zaphar_ps	that would be really useful
21:39	Anniepoo	hiredman, you're probably only having to reload the one class
21:39	Anniepoo	but since the versions are diff ato's reloading the world?
21:40	_ato	zaphar_ps: try this: http://github.com/ksuzuki/Save-cljsites
21:41	_ato	zaphar_ps: there's also various other suggestions on the google group: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/search?group=clojure&q=offline+documentation
21:42	_ato	zaphar_ps: if you're using emacs + slime move the cursor over the name of a function and press: C-c C-d C-d (that obviously doesn't let you search though)
21:42	zaphar_ps	ahh nifty that's like the wget option I was considering
21:43	zaphar_ps	_ato: yeah I use vimclojure which has similar
21:43	zaphar_ps	but like you say it doesn't allow searching or browsing
21:43	kzar	_ato: That worked but when I took too many from the lazy sequence I got a stack overflow. Your right that recur wouldn't work because it gives me an error so is there an alternative?
21:43	_ato	kzar: strange... you shouldn't get a stackoverflow, can you pastebin your whole function
21:43	_ato	?
21:45	Anniepoo	anybody know of a lisp interpreter in clojure? I'm beginning to like that tack a lot
21:47	lisppaste8	kzar pasted "fib" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91070
21:48	_ato	ah, I get a heap overflow not a stack overflow
21:49	kzar	_ato: whoops sorry me too
21:50	_ato	try reduce instead of apply
21:50	_ato	I suspect apply is holding onto the head of the sequence
21:52	kzar	_ato: Hmm that's taking ages to run
21:53	kzar	_ato: hope my macbook doesn't blow a hole in my crappy desk, it's whiring up ominously
21:54	_ato	well you're asking it to sum 4 million fib numbers
21:54	_mst	kzar: I don't think you need to sum the first 4,000,000 numbers to solve that problem ;)
21:54	_ato	the final answer is going to be enormous
21:55	kzar	I guess so but here's the question: "Find the sum of all the even-valued terms in the sequence which do not exceed four million."
21:55	_mst	yep, but even fib(100) exceeds four million by loads
21:56	kzar	oh I read it while the number in the sequence is less than four million but it meant while the sum was less than four million
21:57	_ato	it does mean the numbers in the sequence are less than four million
21:57	_ato	it doesn't mean while the length of the sequence is less than four million
21:57	kzar	yea gotya :/ I'm glad this is logged for everyone to see
21:57	_ato	you probably want (take-while #(< % 4000000) ...) instead of (take 4000000 ...)
21:58	_mst	less ambiguously: (reduce + (take-while #(< % 4000000) (filter even? (fib)))) ;)
22:00	kzar	oh cool, that's pretty powerful
22:00	lisppaste8	kzar annotated #91070 "better" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91070#1
22:21	alexyk	how do you print to stderr?
22:30	zaphar_ps	alexyk: (.println (System/err) "foo")
22:30	zaphar_ps	off the top of my head that should work
22:30	zaphar_ps	uses javas stderr print stream
22:31	alexyk	thx!
22:32	zaphar_ps	http://clojure.org/java_interop
22:32	zaphar_ps	that would probably be useful
22:32	alexyk	so here .println is called on System/err? is that the syntax?
22:32	zaphar_ps	alexyk: yeah
22:40	zaphar_ps	alexyk: after further reading err represents stderr in clojure as well
22:41	alexyk	zaphar_ps: can we use (print ...) with it somehow?
22:41	alexyk	weird: (print err "au") gets me a: #<PrintWriter java.io.PrintWriter@2db7ae22> aunil
22:42	zaphar_ps	you can .println with it
22:42	zaphar_ps	but print doesn't take a stream it assumes out
22:43	somnium	you can also do (binding [out err] ...)
22:43	zaphar_ps	somnium: yeah
22:45	alexyk	ah ok it just printed err
22:47	zaphar_ps	code?
22:50	alexyk	I mean representation of err is #<PrintWriter java.io.PrintWriter@2db7ae22>
22:52	zaphar_ps	alexyk: right
23:19	kzar	how could you take the last two items in a sequence?
23:20	defn	nthrest
23:20	defn	err not what you were asking i suppose
23:24	_mst	if you happen to have a vector: (take 2 (rseq [1 2 3 4 5]))
23:25	defn	(reverse seq), (take 2 seq)
23:25	defn	oh yeah, rseq
23:25	defn	you'll probably wanna reverse the final output from _mst's though
23:26	defn	,(reverse (take 2 (rseq [1 2 3 4 5 6])))
23:26	clojurebot	(5 6)
23:29	defn	you also could (let [sz (count [1 2 3 4 5 6])] (rest (split-at (- sz 2) [1 2 3 4 5 6])))
23:29	defn	,(let [sz (count [1 2 3 4 5 6])] (rest (split-at (- sz 2) [1 2 3 4 5 6])))
23:29	clojurebot	((5 6))
23:29	defn	or something like that
23:32	JAS415	you could also do (drop (-(count coll) 2) coll)
23:32	zaphar_ps	why do read and readline not accept a java.io.FileReader?
23:34	JAS415	have you looked at the duck-streams contrib module?
23:34	defn	^^
23:34	zaphar_ps	JAS415: no I haven't
23:35	JAS415	it might be useful to you
23:38	defn	,(let [size (count [1 2 3 4 5 6])] (subvec (- size 2) size [1 2 3 4 5 6]))
23:38	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentVector
23:38	defn	doh
23:39	JAS415	other way round
23:47	eno__	,(let [v [1 2 3 4 5 6] size (count v)] (subvec v (- size 2)))
23:47	clojurebot	[5 6]