#clojure – 2009-11-23

2009-11-23

00:57	gilbertleung	hi
00:58	gilbertleung	i'm trying to use wall-hack-method, which requires a list of params to be passed in
00:59	gilbertleung	if the param is of string class, then i just pass in java.lang.String
00:59	gilbertleung	so... what if the param is of String[] ?
01:00	hiredman	,(-> "foo" vector into-array .getClass)
01:00	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
01:00	hiredman	,(Class/forname ""[Ljava.lang.String;"")
01:00	clojurebot	EOF while reading
01:01	hiredman	,(Class/forName "[Ljava.lang.String;")
01:01	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
01:01	gilbertleung	hmm
01:02	hiredman	it is less than ideal, but most things dealing with classes of arrays are
01:04	gilbertleung	interesting
01:04	gilbertleung	hiredman: thx
01:06	hiredman	,(-> "foo" vector into-array class)
01:06	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.String;
02:23	mrSpec	hello
05:41	ordnungswidrig	anybody using leiningen on w32?
05:42	Bjering	is there a function to list all my variables so I can run test on those that have :test metadata?
05:45	ordnungswidrig	Bjering: all vairables or all functions?
05:46	liwp	Bjering: you can look up the vars in a namespace I think
05:46	Bjering	all variables that holds functions
05:47	liwp	so you could iterate over all the vars exported by a ns and see if they have :test metadata on them or not
05:47	Bjering	What I am really after the best way to manage my unittests, I have no java legacy its a new project. I am new to Clojure.
05:47	Bjering	yes that was my idea
05:47	liwp	Bjering: you should look into the clojure test framwork: clojure.test I think
05:49	liwp	,(doc clojure.test)
05:49	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.test
05:49	liwp	or not...
05:50	Bjering	,(doc test)
05:50	clojurebot	"([v]); test [v] finds fn at key :test in var metadata and calls it, presuming failure will throw exception"
05:50	Bjering	Thats all the doc I find
05:51	liwp	,(doc clojure.test-is)
05:51	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.test-is
05:51	liwp	grr
05:52	Bjering	now I am reading "the book" now, and it describes the test-is library. I just wanted to go with the core test first, until it was proven to me it wasnt enough. Maybe I already reached that point?
05:53	liwp	AFAIK clojure.contrib.test-is got moved to clojure.test and it's used e.g. in writing tests for core
05:53	liwp	I haven't used it myself, but there's an oldish article about it at http://stuartsierra.com/2009/01/18/tests-are-code
05:54	liwp	seems straight forward enough, i.e. I don't think you need to worry about it being overkill for you needs
05:54	Bjering	thank you, I'll read that
06:15	cypher23	VimClojure question: The keybindings don't seem to work, is there anything I need to do to activate them?
06:57	rhickey	heh, potential JDK syntax for function expressions? #() :) http://www.jroller.com/scolebourne/entry/closures_in_jdk_7
06:59	_ato`	:D
07:53	Bjering_	I want to rotate a vector, like this:
07:53	Bjering_	(reduce conj (subvec v n) (subvec v 0 n)))
07:54	Bjering_	is there a way todo this O(1) ?
08:02	ordnungswidrig	Bjering_ Rotate by one element? What about concat? (concat (subvec v n) (subvec v 0 n))
08:02	ordnungswidrig	,(let [v [1 2 3 4] n 3] (concat (subvec v n) (subvec v 0 n)))
08:02	clojurebot	(4 1 2 3)
08:02	ordnungswidrig	,(let [v [1 2 3 4] n 1] (concat (subvec v n) (subvec v 0 n)))
08:02	clojurebot	(2 3 4 1)
08:06	Bjering_	ornungswidrig: Ah perfect, now it would be great if concat was listed among "related functions" ner vector at http://clojure.org/data_structures
08:07	ordnungswidrig	Bjering_ yes, the api is very large and dynamic typing makes it hard to browser for matching functions.
08:08	Bjering_	I understand
08:10	Bjering_	hmm, concat destroys the "vectorness" though, its a lazy-seq
08:10	ordnungswidrig	Bjering_: but is O(1) I suppose :-)
08:11	Bjering_	As long as I dont want to use it as a vector later.
08:11	ordnungswidrig	Bjering_: you mean random access?
08:11	Bjering_	yes, such as subvec
08:11	Bjering_	,(= [1 2 3 4 5 6] (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
08:11	clojurebot	true
08:12	Bjering_	one is a seq, one is a vec still they are equal?
08:12	ordnungswidrig	Bjering_: you'd better ask somebody who is more familier with clojure's datastructurs. I don't know them very well.
08:16	ordnungswidrig	,(let [v [1 2 3 4] n 3] (vec (subvec v n) (subvec v 0 n)))
08:16	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$vec
08:17	Bjering_	Well, I can make my rotate return a vector by using the vec-ctor, sure, but I assume the vec call is O(n)
08:19	ordnungswidrig	Bjering_: basically you need sth. like concat for vectors which is O(1)
08:21	Bjering_	yes but this doesnt exist?
08:27	chouser	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
08:27	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 6]
08:27	chouser	That's roughly O(n) where n is the length of the second vector
08:28	rhickey	Bjering: there is no constant-time vector rotate in Clojure
08:28	Bjering_	ok, thats the best possible?
08:28	Bjering_	ok
08:29	rhickey	so, in playing with callsites I've added the ability to more-statically link to defn-ed vars you know won't change (e.g. clojure.core), for significant perf boost in some situations, thinking about how best to expose/express this option
08:30	rhickey	could be at the var or lib levels, property of the author or consumer...
08:31	chouser	hm, fun...
08:32	rhickey	seems to give 20% perf boost easily, and can be many times that when a small work unit gets inlined
08:32	chouser	that's a bit better than I saw going from vars to letfn in finger tree
08:32	rhickey	you would never need letfn for perf again
08:32	chouser	yay
08:33	rhickey	the tradeoff is, no dynamic rebinding, no redef without reloading deps (not a restart though)
08:34	rhickey	I found few cases of dynamic rebinding of fns, one in test itself, some in a mock and trace lib
08:35	rhickey	so, this ad hoc capability is costing everyone, even when not used, but can be tricky to determine granularity of expressing static/non
08:36	chouser	producer could provide a "hint" and a consumer could still override that, right?
08:37	rhickey	it's notthat simple when you think of libs that might dynamically rebind something expecting that to be in effect for called code that statically linked
08:37	rhickey	that's a made-up but possible case
08:39	chouser	ah, right. like a trace applied to someone else's code
08:40	djork	is there a standard way to create a fully-qualified symbol from a "base" symbol and a namespace?
08:40	rhickey	so there are a few division points - this fn was designed to be rebound, this lib is done/static, this code is under dev/dynamic, this lib superimposes dynamism on things it doesn't own
08:40	djork	,(namespace 'foo/bar)
08:40	clojurebot	"foo"
08:40	djork	should I just do it with strings
08:41	djork	,(str "some-ns/" (name 'foo))
08:41	clojurebot	"some-ns/foo"
08:41	rhickey	for the latter case there could just be a 'turn off direct linking' option, back to old semantics
08:42	rhickey	but if on consumer side, :requires in different libs could have conflicting directives re this
08:42	durka42	,(symbol "foo" "bar")
08:42	clojurebot	foo/bar
08:43	djork	ah, thanks a lot durka42
08:46	djork	hmm, can't use private fns in a macro that's used somewhere else...
08:47	chouser	is it possible to get a warning if you try to rebind something that has direct linking?
08:55	Bjering_	the seq returned by (seq (vector 1 2 3)) is lazy I presume?
08:59	Bjering_	this paste-webpage I have seen you use, how do I use it?
09:01	rhickey	chouser: I guess if it was a property of the var in the first place - I haven't gone there yet, but on the todo is a more varied set of vars, with/without rebind e.g., and 'constant' vars
09:02	rhickey	but while linkage could be a global property, it need not be, since it is really a property of each fn how strongly it links to the vars it references
09:07	rhickey	one consuming fn could say - I'm happy with the current def indefinitely, another that is wants to see changes
09:08	rhickey	of course, #' does the latter right now
09:11	chouser	Bjering_: just go to http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and fill out the form
09:11	Bjering_	chouser: Thank you
09:13	lisppaste8	Bjering_ pasted "fast-drop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90945
09:14	rhickey	also on the table this weekend was putting protocol fn defs right into deftypes, and having protocols auto-generate interfaces. The desire is to hide the interfaces, which really are an implementation detail, but not have deftype + interfaces be more convient than deftype + protocols, and not have there be any code munging required to move an extend impl to an interface-based one
09:14	Bjering_	Is there a reason (other then deemed unimportant) why this kind of optimization isn't in?
09:14	rhickey	but protocols-autogenerate-interfaces has the problems of gen-and-load-interface :(
09:17	rhickey	Bjering: special handling of particular data structures would bloat all of the standard fns, and how to decide which to special-case? When the standard fns are protocol-based, this kind of optimization will be easy, natural, and extensible
09:18	Bjering_	rhickey: Where can I learn about "protocol-based"?
09:18	rhickey	https://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Protocols
09:19	Bjering_	Thank you
09:19	chouser	Bjering_: currently clojure's core fns and datatypes don't use protocols, but there are plans to move in that direction.
09:20	mikem`	Hi, I have a call to map like this: (map (fn [x] (list (keyword (first x)) (second x))) (some-seq)) -- instead of (fn ...) I tried to use #('((keyword (first %)) (second %))) but that throws java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn. what am I missing?
09:22	chouser	mikem`: #(foo) is (fn [] (foo)) not (fn [] foo)
09:23	chouser	mikem`: so you're trying to eval something like ('(a b))
09:23	chouser	but a list is not a function, so you get an error.
09:24	mikem`	ok. so can I write a function like with #() that returns a list based on the argument it receives?
09:24	rhickey	(fn [x] (anything x)) ==> #(anything %)
09:25	chouser	mikem`: #(list (keyword (first %)) (second %))
09:26	mikem`	ok, thanks! it's working.
10:48	djork	are there any catches to using defmulti/defmethod across namespaces or files?
10:52	chouser	not really. a defmulti can be extended by a defmethod in any file or namespace
11:05	hamza`	~memoize
11:05	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:05	hamza`	how did we get the url to source for a function?
11:07	jweiss	bah. paredit. doesn't do what i want in clojure. anyone here gone thru this already? (paredit in emacs)
11:07	chouser	~def memoize
11:07	hamza`	ool thanks..
11:07	hamza`	* cool
11:08	liwp	jweiss: I have
11:08	liwp	jweiss: I had problems with {} I think
11:08	jweiss	liwp: ok, for instance, i want the slurp/barf to work within square braces. how do i do that
11:09	jweiss	btw i love that they named it 'barf'
11:09	liwp	jweiss: huh? what happens at the moment?
11:09	liwp	jweiss: slurp / barf are paredit functions?
11:09	jweiss	liwp - that command does nothing if i run it withing square braces
11:09	jweiss	liwp: paredit-forward-slurp-sexp
11:10	liwp	jweiss: what happens in your case?
11:11	liwp	~paste
11:11	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
11:11	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
11:11	jweiss	liwp - nothing happens. if i have this (let [a b \| ] c) where \| is the point, and i run that command, i want it to give me (let [a b c]) . but it does nothing.
11:13	liwp	jweiss: IIRC you have to hack paredit source to understand [] and {}. Let me see if I can figure out what I changed...
11:14	jweiss	liwp: maybe just diff your paredit.el with the orig
11:14	jweiss	or create patch :)
11:14	liwp	jweiss: have a look in paredit.el:667
11:15	liwp	jweiss: you should see a bunch of (define-paredit-pair) forms
11:15	jweiss	liwp: yeah
11:15	liwp	do you have forms for all these: () [] {} <>?
11:15	jweiss	liwp yes
11:16	liwp	jweiss: uhh, must have been something else that I changed then...
11:16	jweiss	round, square, curly, angled.
11:16	liwp	yeah
11:16	jweiss	liwp: just run diff from http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el to your file
11:18	jweiss	liwp, or better just just pastebin your file and i'll use that :)
11:18	jweiss	s/just just/yet just/
11:18	liwp	jweiss: yeah, let's try that for starters
11:18	the-kenny	I fell asleep two times in a row watching "Clojure Data Structures - Part 1". Sorry :(
11:18	jweiss	we should probably post this somewhere maybe on github for other people
11:19	liwp	jweiss: I'd love to figure out what I changed first :-)
11:19	liwp	uhh, "paste too large"
11:19	jweiss	liwp: i'll diff it for ya if you like
11:19	jweiss	liwp: maybe try the non-lisp pastebin
11:20	jweiss	http://pastebin.com/
11:21	liwp	jweiss: apparently my paredit.el is identical to the one on the above url...
11:21	liwp	this isn't really helping :-(
11:21	jweiss	liwp. so you didn't change anything?
11:21	jweiss	that is... odd
11:22	liwp	jweiss: I distinctly remember changing something. IIRC I wasn't able to type in curly braces with the default paredit.el
11:23	jweiss	liwp, for what it's worth, i CAN slurp in the next item if it's an sexp
11:23	liwp	jweiss: ahh, I think there's some magic in clojure-mode.el for paredit
11:24	liwp	jweiss: can you pastebin some code that doesn't work for you
11:24	jweiss	liwp, ok, hm
11:24	liwp	jweiss: my clojure-mode say this: ./clojure-mode/clojure-mode.el:225: ;; Enable curly braces when paredit is enabled in clojure-mode-hook
11:24	jweiss	liwp: yeah i think i have that too
11:24	jweiss	this is on the REPL by the way
11:25	liwp	ahh, I don't have paredit enabled on slime repl
11:25	jweiss	liwp: (interpose [\|] :a [1 2 3])
11:25	jweiss	where the cursor is at the \|
11:25	jweiss	i want to slurp in the :a
11:26	liwp	jweiss: I get this after a slurp: (interpose [\| :a] [1 2 3])
11:26	liwp	let me try that in the repl
11:27	jweiss	liwp: works for me in a clojure file
11:27	jweiss	not the repl tho
11:27	liwp	jweiss: yep, works there as well
11:27	liwp	jweiss: is that a slime repl or the inferior-lisp buffer?
11:27	jweiss	liwp, slime-repl
11:28	jweiss	ok i think i have a problem in my .emacs, let me see if i can fix liwp
11:28	liwp	jweiss: seems to work for me everywhere, sorry I can't help :(
11:32	mattrepl	any active contributors know if it's fine to self-assign an open ticket in assembla?
11:34	Chousuke	mattrepl: I don't think the assigment system is used for anything other than tracking who's working on the issue
11:35	mattrepl	Chousuke: thanks
11:35	liwp	mattrepl: I think so. If you think that you can fix something, go for it. The patch will go through verification before it's applied in any case.
11:38	jweiss	liwp: ok i figured it out. had to enable clojure-mode in the repl, and then enable paredit-mode in the repl.
11:38	Joreji	Hey guys, how can I dispatch a multimethod on a & rest param? (e.g.: (defmethod [:one :two LazySeq] [one two & rest] nil) )
11:38	liwp	jweiss: good job
11:38	jweiss	liwp: i am not sure how to get this to happen in my .emacs file tho, any suggestion
11:39	liwp	jweiss: let me see what I do to get slime going...
11:41	Joreji	jweiss: (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook (lambda()(progn(clojure-mode 1)(paredit-mode 1)))) ?
11:41	jweiss	Joreji: letme try that
11:41	liwp	jweiss: it seems that I don't have clojure-mode enabled in my slime-repl (I don't know why paredit seems to work for in that case). But I'm sure you can use some mode hook to enable clojure-mode
11:42	liwp	Joreji: yeah, something like that
11:44	jweiss	Joreji: didn't work, i get a strange message when i run slime:
11:45	jweiss	bah, it won't even paste because it has multibyte chars
11:45	jweiss	Joreji: error in process filter: progn: Wrong number of arguments: #[nil (and then bunch of list items)
11:47	liwp	jweiss: try it without the progn, i.e.: (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook (lambda () (clojure-mode 1) (paredit-mode 1)))
11:48	Joreji	Hmm strange
11:49	jweiss	liwp: Joreji, nope, same err
11:49	Joreji	I doubt the problem lies with the top level progn
11:50	Joreji	then again, I've just activated clojure-mode inside my repl, and I must say that I don't see the use for it.
11:50	Joreji	You can't have the repl-mode and clojure-mode be activated at the same time.
11:51	jweiss	Joreji: hm, i can't get paredit to work right unless i activate clojure-mode
11:51	the-kenny	jweiss: Just add a hook to slime-repl-mode
11:51	jweiss	the-kenny: um, i'm an emacs newb, how do i do that
11:52	Joreji	jweiss: You already tried that.
11:52	the-kenny	(add-hook 'slime-mode-hook (lambda () paredit-mode +1))
11:52	jweiss	the-kenny: i don't think that's it. clojure-mode does something to make paredit work right.
11:52	the-kenny	jweiss: It's working for me.
11:53	liwp	Joreji: yeah, you're right, enabling clojure-mode disables repl-mode
11:53	jweiss	the-kenny: in the REPL?
11:53	the-kenny	jweiss: Yes
11:53	the-kenny	paredit doesn't have anything to do with paredit
11:53	ordnungswidrig	whoohoo. chatting at the train with my g1
11:53	the-kenny	Ew.. I mean clojure-mode
11:53	jweiss	the-kenny: try this: (interpose [\|] :a) where \| is the cursor, and hit C-[rightarrow]
11:53	jweiss	see if it slurps in the :a
11:54	jweiss	the-kenny: yes it does, i think. clojure-mode's code has some paredit stuff in it
11:55	the-kenny	jweiss: Hm.. you're right. It adds functionality for {
11:55	the-kenny	But that works for me in my REPL without extra changes
11:55	jweiss	the-kenny: crap
11:56	ordnungswidrig	the-kenny paredit doesn't work on { for me.
11:56	the-kenny	ordnungswidrig: Oo strange
11:56	jweiss	i can't seem to surround a list with [] in the repl
11:56	the-kenny	Maybe it works because I've opened a buffer in clojure-mode before I started the repl?
11:57	jweiss	nor slurp the list into empty []
11:57	ordnungswidrig	when i insert a { no } is inserted. the rest works as expected... deleting etc.
11:57	jweiss	ordnungswidrig: yeah i don't get any curly brace love on the repl either
11:58	jweiss	the-kenny: i didn't realize it mattered where you start slime from
11:58	jweiss	it opens a new buffer for me
11:58	ordnungswidrig	jweiss: in the clojure buffer i do not get it neither
11:59	jweiss	ordnungswidrig: oh yea, me neither
11:59	liwp	you don't get {} in a clojure buffer?
11:59	jweiss	liwp: no
11:59	liwp	jweiss: I do
11:59	ordnungswidrig	liwp: no insert of { after }
12:00	liwp	If I type '{' I get '{}' and the point is in between the braces
12:00	ordnungswidrig	liwsp: tr/{}/}{/
12:00	jweiss	liwp, doesn't work for me
12:00	ordnungswidrig	strange stuff
12:00	liwp	jweiss: I think this is exactly what clojure-mode fixes in paredit.el
12:00	jweiss	liwp: so what's going wrong then
12:01	jweiss	loaded in the wrong order or something?
12:01	ordnungswidrig	must i enable paredit by clojure-mode?
12:01	liwp	I don't think that should make any difference...
12:01	ordnungswidrig	...let enable...
12:02	liwp	I autoload paredit first and the require clojure-mode
12:02	ordnungswidrig	hmm. i'm on debian unstable. does the clojure-mode version matter?
12:02	liwp	ordnungswidrig: possibly, I think most people get it directly from github
12:03	liwp	I gotta run, good luck!
12:03	ordnungswidrig	iirc I use clojure installed by elpa-cl-swank
12:03	ordnungswidrig	yes, will keep trying. good to know that it can work fine.
12:04	Chousuke	elpa should have a recent enough clojure-mode I think
12:05	jweiss	i installed it thru elpa as well
12:05	jweiss	but if i put (require 'clojure-mode) in my .emacs it won't start correctly
12:06	jweiss	my clojure mode is udner my ~/.emacs.d/elpa
12:08	jweiss	aha, had to move the elpa stuff to the top of .emacs
12:15	Bjering_	What is the idiomatic way to check for the empty list? #(= '() %)
12:17	stuartsierra	Bjering_: seq or empty?
12:17	Bjering_	thank you
12:50	jweiss	if i have a little mini function i want to call a couple times within a defn, but i don't need the mini function anywhere else, is it ok to just define it in a let? or will this waste memory each time the larger function is called? i would hope it's the same as any place you use #()
12:51	the-kenny	jweiss: Let is fine..
12:51	the-kenny	I think there is also letfn or so
12:52	the-kenny	jweiss: You're on the JVM. The JIT does a good job in optimizing such things
12:58	stuartsierra	Each instance of (fn ...) or #(...) creates a single Java class. A new instance of that class is created each time you evaluate the fn/#() form.
12:59	hiredman	each time you compile
13:00	hiredman	(which is what eval does, but saying it happens each time you compile the form sounds less threatening)
13:00	the-kenny	,(time (dotimes (_ 100000) (let [foo (fn [] nil)] (foo))))
13:00	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: dotimes requires a vector for its binding
13:00	the-kenny	,(time (dotimes [_ 100000] (let [foo (fn [] nil)] (foo))))
13:00	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 56.972 msecs"
13:00	hiredman	the-kenny: what will only compile the function once
13:01	hiredman	that
13:01	the-kenny	hiredman: That compiles only once? Very good :)
13:03	bgs100	,(map .toUpperCase ["a" "b" "c"])
13:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: .toUpperCase in this context
13:03	hiredman	bgs100: java methods are not first class values
13:03	bgs100	Oh
13:04	hiredman	,(map (fn [x] (.toUpperCase x)) ["a" "b" "c"])
13:04	clojurebot	("A" "B" "C")
13:04	the-kenny	,(map (memfn toUpperCase) ["a" "b" "c"])
13:04	clojurebot	("A" "B" "C")
13:04	hiredman	,(map #(.toUpperCase %) ["a" "b" "c"])
13:04	clojurebot	("A" "B" "C")
13:19	defn	hiredman, S. Halloway's book, eh? :)
13:19	defn	errr, nvm, didn't notice the-kenny interjected there
13:20	defn	it should be noted that memfn is less favorable
13:20	the-kenny	defn: Why is memfn not favorable?
13:20	defn	It came from when Clojure didn't have anonymous functions
13:20	defn	anonymous functions are the preferred way of using Java calls
13:21	the-kenny	ah ok.. got it.
13:49	krukow	Anyone up for an emacs/slime classpath question?
13:51	the-kenny	krukow: Just ask. meta-questions are just time consuming
13:51	krukow	sure: I can use add-classpath to dynamically a to the classpath, yes?
13:51	krukow	for example:
13:52	the-kenny	krukow: You could, but it's discouraged.
13:52	krukow	(add-classpath "file:////Users/krukow/emacs/enlive/enlive.jar")
13:52	krukow	(add-classpath "file:////Users/krukow/emacs/enlive/enlive.jar")
13:52	krukow	yes, just for a repl session
13:53	krukow	following the enlive tutorial I am adding enlive.jar and tagsoup-1.2.jar
13:53	krukow	this works fine. However adding: (add-classpath "file:////Users/krukow/emacs/enlive/src")
13:54	krukow	doesn't seem to work for me
13:54	krukow	at least it can't see a file located in the src directory
13:55	krukow	it works with java -cp<paths here> clojure.main
13:56	KirinDave	Enlive looks nice.
13:56	KirinDave	I am glad the culture of sexp->html is not deeply rooted in the clojure community. It's such a tiresome practice to dispel.
13:58	krukow	noone on the emacs classpath q?
14:00	the-kenny	krukow: Which question?
14:00	krukow	I was wondering why seems to be able to see the html file in enlive/src with java -cp<paths here> clojure.main
14:01	krukow	but not when using add-classpath file:////Users/krukow/emacs/enlive/src
14:01	krukow	inside emacs
14:02	the-kenny	Because add-classpath is buggy ;)
14:02	krukow	oh ;-)
14:02	hiredman	~add-classpath
14:02	clojurebot	add-classpath is Fraught with Peril!
14:02	krukow	which is why it is discouraged :-)
14:02	the-kenny	hiredman: Is ~ a shortcut for ,(doc name)?
14:03	hiredman	~ is a shortcut for clojurebot:
14:03	clojurebot	for is not used enough
14:03	hiredman	clojurebot: add-classpath
14:03	clojurebot	add-classpath is Fraught with Peril!
14:04	michaeljaaka	hi
14:04	michaeljaaka	I have question
14:04	michaeljaaka	http://gist.github.com/241284
14:05	michaeljaaka	are these sequences whole consumed?
14:05	michaeljaaka	or only first element is evaluated
14:05	michaeljaaka	and removed as filter wants
14:06	hiredman	michaeljaaka: those sequences are not lazy, so it makes no difference
14:06	michaeljaaka	but if those were lazy?
14:06	michaeljaaka	how to check this in future
14:06	hiredman	only the first
14:06	michaeljaaka	I will have sequences from file
14:06	hiredman	check what?
14:06	michaeljaaka	is there any simple way to ensure
14:07	michaeljaaka	that sequences are not evaluated?
14:07	hiredman	"sequences from a file" is pretty vague
14:09	michaeljaaka	if the filter computes after checking only first element from each seq, then it is ok
14:09	michaeljaaka	thanks
14:13	Chousuke	michaeljaaka: note that functions that transform or consume sequences may consume more than is strictly necessary. first doesn't though, so in this case it's safe.
14:14	michaeljaaka	ok, thanks
14:24	esj	any way of seq'ing an integer ? Doing an Euler problem where I want to treat a number as seq, and turning it into a string first seems a bit wasteful.
14:25	Chousuke	you can devise another method of extracting the digits from an integer I suppose.
14:26	rhickey	add-classpath is not buggy, it just can't make the added classpath visible to all classloaders, thus, not that useful and to be avoided
14:27	krukow	ok, interesting. can you explain why adding a jar seems to work while adding a directory does not?
14:27	esj	Chousuke: sure I could do it numerically or via the string, but seems roundabout
14:29	rhickey	krukow: don't use add-classpath, I'm going to remove it at some point. Use regular classpaths
14:30	rhickey	I don't see a reason why jars and dirs would be different if the dir has the same structure
14:31	krukow	ok, but it's still a nice feature to dynamically extend a repl session
14:31	krukow	except that it doesnt work of course :-)
14:32	rhickey	I wish there was a standard way to extend the root classpath, but there isn't
14:33	rhickey	if you are using JDK 6 you can add a wildcard dir to your classpath, then dynamically drop jars there
14:34	krukow	cool, didn't know that
14:34	rhickey	my classpath ends with :/Users/rich/dev/ext/* and everything I put there is visible
14:35	the-kenny	Does this really work? I remember problems with that
14:35	rhickey	it's quite painless
14:35	krukow	I think I'll add something similar to my swank-clojure-extra-classpaths
14:36	krukow	thanks
14:36	rhickey	the-kenny: java.ext.dirs can be tricky, but the wildcard isn't afaict
14:37	chouser	With some effort I've gotten java.ext.dirs to work pretty consistently. I should probably try the wildcard instead.
14:37	the-kenny	hm.. so should "java -cp classes/:lib/:src/* my.class" work?
14:37	chouser	the-kenny: probably "classes:lib/*:src" if you've got a "normal" layout
14:38	the-kenny	hm... does the order matter?
14:38	chouser	the-kenny: if there are two classes with the same name in different places, yes.
14:39	rhickey	wildcards are for dirs containing jars only
14:39	chouser	the-kenny: but I was pointing out that 'classes' and 'src' are usually each the root of a classpath, with dirs named like 'com' and 'org' in them.
14:39	chouser	while 'lib' is usually a directory full of .jar files.
14:39	the-kenny	chouser: Yes, that's my layout.
14:40	rhickey	hrm, claspath wildcards are not dynamic, guess I never really needed that
14:41	rhickey	at least they keep you from ever-expanding classpath args
14:41	rhickey	http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/tools/windows/classpath.html
14:41	the-kenny	I just started using `echo lib/*.jar\|sed -e 's/ /:/g'` some minutes ago
14:41	krukow	ok
14:42	jweiss	can someone point me to an example of using callbacks/listeners in clojure? I am trying to implement something like TestNG in clojure. testng is java, and to add a listener to it you implement one of their interfaces, and it calls your listener when certain events happen.
14:43	the-kenny	,(doc proxy)
14:43	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provid
14:44	chouser	jweiss: 'proxy' is the best way to implement an interface
14:44	chouser	jweiss: there are examples in contrib and you can probably google for more.
14:44	jweiss	ok
14:44	hiredman	http://clojure.org/jvm_hosted has an actionlistener example
14:45	jweiss	proxy is not what i'm looking for though, i don't need to interact with testng, just do a clojure-only version of it
14:45	chouser	oh!
14:45	chouser	then you just write a high-order function.
14:45	chouser	'map', for example, essentially calls the "callback" you give it, right?
14:46	jweiss	chouser: yeah i know how to call a single function, but how to group them together like in java's interface?
14:46	jweiss	i suppose i could just make a map
14:46	jweiss	of keywords to fn's
14:47	chouser	jweiss: ah. In the "new" branch, defprotocol. but yes, a map would be perfectly acceptible.
14:47	chouser	actually, depending on your use cases a map might be best even if defprotocol were available.
14:47	jweiss	i don't know if i'm ready to mess up my new emacs dev environment with the new branch :) i'll try maps
14:48	the-kenny	jweiss: "new" is very stable in my opinion.. never had a crash
14:49	jweiss	the-kenny: yeah i'm more worried about getting it working with swank-clojure
14:49	the-kenny	jweiss: Works without any problems here.
14:50	jweiss	hm. so i just h ave to replace the jar i build in the swank-clojure emacs.d dir?
14:50	the-kenny	"git co new; ant clean; ant build" and the same for clojure-contrib was enough :)
14:50	the-kenny	jweiss: Hm.. Maybe you have to recompile the jar.
14:50	jweiss	the-kenny: swank-clojure jar?
14:50	the-kenny	Yes
14:51	jweiss	k, i'll give it a shot in a bit
14:51	krukow	krukow:~/emacs/clojure/clojure$ git checkout new
14:51	krukow	error: pathspec 'new' did not match any file(s) known to git.
14:51	the-kenny	Yeah, you have to add the remote branch.. wait
14:54	jweiss	git checkout --track -b new origin/new
14:54	jweiss	?
14:54	the-kenny	yeah, something like this
14:56	krukow	great :-) really gotta read up on git soon...
15:01	kzar	yea me too krukow, submitted a patch the other day and it was pretty easy but I want to learn a lot more about it
15:03	krukow	same here, I read a bit of theory about it but I don't know many actual commands besides git clone :-)
15:04	the-kenny	git is really cool :)
15:04	chouser	http://www.newartisans.com/2008/04/git-from-the-bottom-up.html
15:04	krukow	thx - reading it now
15:04	chouser	that helped me a bit. I should probably read it again, actually.
15:04	kzar	oo thanks I'll read that later too
15:08	kzar	Is this kind of code OK or is it bad form to redefine stuff like this with let? (let [example "hello", example (take 3 example)] example)
15:08	stuartsierra	kzar: that's ok
15:09	stuartsierra	although it may be more readable to use different names
15:09	chouser	kzar: but it's good you're asking. :-)
15:09	krukow	I would have guessed that would result in an error, but it runs fine
15:09	kzar	Heh cool, it makes more sense in my actual code but I wanted to make sure it's not a taboo or something heh
15:10	krukow	why is that ok - I would consider it bad style
15:10	hiredman	let performs sequential binds so its like (let [example 1] (let [example 2] example))
15:10	krukow	ah
15:10	hiredman	generally it's kind of icky
15:10	hiredman	but I do it all the time :P
15:10	chouser	it's no worse than using the same local variable to mean a couple different things in any other language.
15:10	rhickey	me too
15:11	krukow	can someone give a compelling example?
15:11	hiredman	usually it means I mean incrementally mucking with a function
15:11	hiredman	I have been
15:11	fogus_	krukow: I do it when I coerce
15:12	chouser	mm, yes (fn [x] (let [x (int x)] ...))
15:12	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/hiredman/clojurebot/code_lookup.clj#L66
15:12	hiredman	started out as google being the google url
15:13	hiredman	then clojure moved from google svn to github
15:13	kzar	krukow: (I'm having a go at changing my tetris to be functional like a few articles I read. So I have signals being passed and I'm setting the signals to be the result of routing the signals, then setting the signals to be the result of routing the input signals. So I could call them signals, signals after processing, input-signals, input-singals-after-processing ... but I rather just keep 'changing' something called
15:13	kzar	signals)
15:13	hiredman	so I wrote a transform to turn the google svn url into a github url
15:13	chouser	I guess I'd say it's a matter of taste. If you're realy rather say (fn [x-obj] (let [x (int xobj)] ...), then go ahead. But it hardly seems clearer.
15:14	hiredman	code_lookup is icky anyway
15:14	chouser	nearly all code that actually does anything seems to be icky in the end
15:14	krukow	LOL
15:15	kzar	chouser: At least all the code I've received money for has been
15:15	krukow	can I quote that? ;-)
15:15	chouser	that's one nice thing about projecteuler type problems. You can write tidy little solutions that you can feel good about.
15:15	chouser	krukow: :-P sure
15:15	hiredman	sometimes it has a brutalist beauty
15:16	chouser	hiredman: that's true. the beauty of a good hack.
15:19	esj	chouser: you don't mean to tell me that once I've learn't clojure through PE my mercenary coding won't suddenly be beautiful. crestfallen
15:20	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/184831 <-- I still like this
15:21	hiredman	~ticket search Keyword
15:21	clojurebot	("#154: (keyword \"a/b\") => ns nil, name a/b; should be ns a, name b" "#154: (keyword \"a/b\") => ns nil, name a/b; should be ns a, name b" "#154: (keyword \"a/b\") => ns nil, name a/b; should be ns a, name b" "#64: GC Issue 61: \t Make Clojure datatype Java Serializable" "#174: Make c.l.Keyword Serializable" "#6: GC Issue 1:\t:validator as keyword arg for ref/atom/agent" "#174: Make c.l.Keyword Serializable" "#200: Exte
15:21	stuartsierra	yowza
15:22	chouser	hiredman: I'm pretty sure I wrote zip-filter exactly so I wouldn't have to write code like that. :-P
15:23	hiredman	~ticket #64
15:23	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/kv5v3t, :summary "GC Issue 61: Make Clojure datatype Java Serializable", :status :new, :priority :low, :created-on "2009-06-17T19:38:52+00:00"}
15:26	krukow	people don't like me at work anymore because of clojure...
15:27	tmountain	krukow: why is that?
15:27	jweiss	i'm guessing because clojure is greek to them
15:27	krukow	because I've started programming my Java more functionally, I think
15:27	zaphar_ps	krukow: yeah we want to know
15:27	mauritslamers	question: is it possible to create arrays of primitives inside clojure for use in calling Java functions?
15:28	chouser	,(into-array Integer/type [1 2 3 4])
15:28	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to find static field: type in class java.lang.Integer
15:28	chouser	,(into-array Integer/TYPE [1 2 3 4])
15:28	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@1738d88>
15:28	tmountain	krukow: when every variable in your class begins with final, you know you've drank the koolaid ;-)
15:28	krukow	it does, but it's not just that
15:28	jweiss	ick, can't imagine trying to force java's square peg into that round hole
15:29	stuartsierra	,(int-array [1 2 3 4])
15:29	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@13bb93a>
15:29	mauritslamers	chouser: when I call my function with that, it returns a ClassCastException
15:29	chouser	stuartsierra: so much better!
15:29	stuartsierra	but I think that creates an array, not convert
15:29	stuartsierra	,(doc int-array)
15:29	clojurebot	"([size-or-seq] [size init-val-or-seq]); Creates an array of ints"
15:29	mauritslamers	stuartsierra: checking out :)
15:29	stuartsierra	nope, it converts to an array too
15:32	mauritslamers	stuartsierra: it seems to return the correct array, but when I call my function with the result, it still throws an ClassCastException
15:32	krukow	anyway, I find myself mimicking clojure constructs in the code
15:32	chouser	mauritslamers: are you sure the method you're calling wants an array of primitive int?
15:32	mauritslamers	public byte[] convertDoubleArrayToByte(double[] incoming){
15:32	hiredman	int[] is not double[]
15:32	stuartsierra	That's a double array you want, then.
15:32	jweiss	hehe
15:33	mauritslamers	of course :)
15:33	mauritslamers	(def heletoonsarray (double-array heletoonsbuffer))
15:33	mauritslamers	in which heletoonsbuffer is a list of floating point values
15:33	krukow	it's really quite facinating... I've never tried this with a language before
15:33	mauritslamers	doubles to be exact
15:33	chouser	krukow: using clojure idioms in Java?
15:34	mauritslamers	calling the function with: (.convertDoubleArrayToByte dsp heletoonsbuffer)
15:35	chouser	mauritslamers: you're saying that's what you've been doing and you still get the exception? Can you paste the whole stack trace somewhere?
15:35	mauritslamers	how do I get the whole stack trace?
15:35	mauritslamers	the only message I get is: user=> (.convertDoubleArrayToByte dsp heletoonsbuffer)
15:35	mauritslamers	java.lang.ClassCastException (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:36	stuartsierra	(.printStackTrace *e)
15:36	chouser	(.printStackTrace *e) if you're at a plain terminal repl
15:37	mauritslamers	the stack trace only contains clojure stuff and sun.reflect et
15:37	mauritslamers	*Etc
15:37	chouser	you can often get a better message too if you type-hint the first arg. (.methodOfFoo #^Foo dsp arg2 etc)
15:37	mauritslamers	chouser: http://gist.github.com/241351
15:38	rhickey	urk, looks like pprint rebinds core fns
15:38	hiredman	:(
15:38	chouser	really!? which ones?
15:38	chouser	pprint is rather ambitious
15:38	hiredman	mauritslamers: can you pastebin your code?
15:39	mauritslamers	hiredman: which code exactly?
15:39	rhickey	looks like pr
15:39	mauritslamers	it is quite a lot :)
15:39	krukow	chouser: at least thinking much more in terms of identities and values
15:39	hiredman	mauritslamers: the code that produces the exception
15:39	hiredman	like a small test case
15:39	chouser	mauritslamers: did you try the type hint?
15:40	mauritslamers	chouser: when I do: (.convertDoubleArrayToByte #^ml.mesic.dsp.DSP dsp heletoonsbuffer)
15:40	mauritslamers	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to [D (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:40	chouser	ah, now we're getting somewhere.
15:40	hiredman	mauritslamers: you are running map or something over the array at some point
15:41	hiredman	so it is no longer an array
15:41	mauritslamers	it shouldn't...
15:41	mauritslamers	moment. checking...
15:41	mauritslamers	ah... oops ...
15:41	chouser	:-)
15:41	chouser	the best words in a debugging session
15:41	mauritslamers	shame
15:41	chouser	naw, that's what debugging is all about
15:42	mauritslamers	it ain't gonna work if I keep feeding it with the wrong argument ... :\
15:42	mauritslamers	anyway: thanks a lot :D
15:43	chouser	I wonder why the error message is different for dynamic method calls
15:43	krukow	if the bug isn't there it's because it is somewhere else
15:43	hiredman	http://hsivonen.iki.fi/rdf-competition/
15:44	rhickey	so, that's a good example - some lib like pprint wants to redefine something like pr for everyone. Leaving all those hooks open means slowing everyone else down...
15:45	rhickey	aargh - (deftest dotrace-on-core ...)
15:53	mauritslamers	interesting... my function written in java is much much MUCH faster than the one in clojure...
15:55	mauritslamers	For those interested: http://gist.github.com/241366
15:55	mauritslamers	the clojure code takes at least half a second
15:57	KirinDave	The JVM is pretty notoriously bad at byte-level manipulation.
15:57	mauritslamers	but why is the java code faster than the clojure code :)
15:58	stuartsierra	mauritslamers: The difference in this case comes from the overhead of Clojure's persistent data structures.
15:58	stuartsierra	Every call to your float-to-two-bytes creates a persistent vector as an intermediate value.
15:58	mauritslamers	so for this type of conversions it is better to write stuff in java
15:58	mauritslamers	and create a clojure wrapper
15:59	rhickey	hrm, mocking is in obvious conflict with direct linking...
15:59	stuartsierra	Also, Clojure's bit-shifting operations are not well-optimized.
15:59	stuartsierra	mauritslamers: you would get closer to Java performance by writing a single function using loop/recur and Java arrays instead of reduce/mapcat
16:00	stuartsierra	But you will probably not be able to match Java performance on bit twiddling (yet).
16:00	rhickey	only failures in clojure and contrib with direct linking are now in the mocking stuff
16:00	mauritslamers	stuartsierra: which is not really a problem, since I have to do other java stuff anyway :)
16:01	mauritslamers	I need the bit twiddling to be as fast as possible
16:01	mauritslamers	thanks!
16:01	stuartsierra	rhickey: what's this mocking/linking?
16:01	mauritslamers	tty all later!
16:02	KirinDave	It'd be cool if Clojure had optimized binary pattern matching like erlang. :)
16:02	rhickey	stuartsierra: I now can do direct-linking of call sites. For code you are not going to be changing at runtime, nor rebinding (e.g. core, etc) you can get much faster perf by limiting dynamism and directly hooking up the callee. The mocking is just the contrib library, the only thing left in contrib that doesn't work with direct linking
16:03	stuartsierra	I see.
16:03	stuartsierra	I like.
16:03	wtetzner_	how do i use the clojure printer from java?
16:03	wtetzner_	i found the reader in LispReader.class
16:03	wtetzner_	but i can't find the printer
16:04	stuartsierra	wtetzner_: You can invoke the clojure.core/print function directly.
16:04	stuartsierra	RT.var("clojure.core", "print").invoke(...)
16:04	wtetzner_	oh
16:04	wtetzner_	cool
16:04	wtetzner_	thanks
16:04	hiredman	prn
16:04	hiredman	I imagine you'll want prn
16:04	wtetzner_	so you can call any clojure functions that way?
16:05	rhickey	stuartsierra: fyi, test/report was another problem area
16:05	wtetzner_	hiredman: yeah, actually prn-str
16:05	stuartsierra	Oh, yeah.
16:05	rhickey	but now test/report and pr are marked {:dynamic true}
16:05	krukow	rhickey: why are these problematic?
16:05	rhickey	so test and pprint work
16:05	stuartsierra	rhickey: Ok.
16:05	rhickey	krukow: they are being dynamically rebound by design
16:06	krukow	ok so just marking them is fine
16:06	stuartsierra	rhickey: So does this mean that any var which is dynamically rebound must be declared {:dynamic true}?
16:06	rhickey	krukow: I've been testing all of clojure and contrib with direct linking
16:06	KirinDave	Or can we enable an optimization by saying {:dynamic false}
16:06	krukow	what kind of speed up are you expecting from direct linking?
16:06	rhickey	stuartsierra: just vars that are invoked, so not your normal foo stuff
16:07	stuartsierra	rhickey: Ok, that's good.
16:07	stuartsierra	Functions, in other words.
16:07	rhickey	functions
16:07	rhickey	right
16:07	chouser	you get an error? when?
16:08	rhickey	krukow: it can be quite substantial, depending on what the function does, but overall you can see 20% easily, some specific calls might be several times faster
16:09	rhickey	chouser: what error?
16:10	chouser	if you try to dynamically bind a static fn
16:10	chouser	do you get an error or just the root binding behavior?
16:10	rhickey	chouser: no error, just won't be dynamic
16:10	chouser	hm
16:10	KirinDave	So you'd try to rebind it and it'd fail for some calls?
16:11	rhickey	as I was saying before, direct linking is a property of the caller, not the callee
16:11	rhickey	one caller could directly link and another not
16:11	KirinDave	Ah
16:11	stuartsierra	even better
16:11	stuartsierra	So which is declared {:dynamic true}? The caller or the callee?
16:12	krukow	I guess that could give some strange behaviour with binding core fns
16:12	rhickey	a directly linked caller will see the original value forever (or until they themselves are re-evaluated)
16:12	rhickey	krukow: that's the question - who's binding core fns and why?
16:12	rhickey	there was only one case in all of contrib - pprint
16:13	rhickey	none in core
16:13	rhickey	trivial functions can be 10x faster with direct linking
16:14	rhickey	so, it's important, to me at least
16:14	krukow	I was just thinking of an example on the web:
16:14	stuartsierra	I assume direct linking allows the JVM to inline the function as well?
16:14	rhickey	but the general question is, how do we want to talk about this, at what granularity, with what defaults
16:14	rhickey	stuartsierra: yep
16:14	krukow	cant find it right now, but I think it was about using binding to create som AOP like feature
16:15	rhickey	krukow: one option could be - I never want direct linking
16:16	stuartsierra	rhickey: I feel I should mention that it feels like features keep getting added, pushing a 1.1 release farther into the future.
16:16	rhickey	that is the simplest story for ad hoc whatever
16:16	stuartsierra	I mean, they're cool features, no question, but have you thought about where you're going to stop?
16:16	hiredman	stuartsierra: 2.0 :P
16:17	krukow	actually it sounds very cool to me - just immediately trying find an example it would break :-)
16:17	rhickey	stuartsierra: none of this is going into 1.1. I would love it if someone would come up with a punch list for calling what we've got 1.1, producing some release candidates etc. I've added a new field in the tickets - bug/enhancement - I'd like to see all tickets categorized
16:17	stuartsierra	Would that include deftype/defprotocol?
16:18	rhickey	stuartsierra: nothing from new is going in 1.1, so no deftype/defprotocol
16:18	spuz	In Clojure, if a variable is not actually variable... then what do we call it?
16:18	hiredman	spuz: a binding
16:18	rhickey	It came up the other day that chunked seqs might be controversial - we need the broader community trying master
16:18	krukow	rhickey: when do you expect deftype/protocol?
16:19	spuz	hiredman: funny how I could read a whole book about clojure and not get that...
16:19	stuartsierra	If it's any help, I've been using master for months without any problem.
16:19	rhickey	krukow: soon after 1.1, at least with 1.1 out it can move into master and get more hands on it. But it is still a work in progress
16:20	krukow	really looking forward to it, btw :-)
16:20	rhickey	stuartsierra: right, and yet, I think hiredman and AWizzArd were both troubled by it the other night, as it can change full lazy semantics. And we don't have a seq1 to force dribbling
16:21	hiredman	spuz: I was just looking over the chapter on lexical bindings in essentials of programming languages
16:21	rhickey	I'd love to know how the community breaks down as far as which release/branch they use
16:21	stuartsierra	rhickey: Ah, ok, hadn't considered that.
16:22	rhickey	so, 1.1. is a matter of - no new enhancements, tidy up anything unfinished, produce release candidates and get broader feedback, cut a release when ready
16:23	rhickey	the new branch work will follow 1.1
16:23	krukow	diff 1.1 1.0?
16:23	rhickey	but I am fully (like 10 hrs a day) occupied with the new branch, so people that want 1.1. have to step up and volunteer
16:24	krukow	I want the new branch :-)
16:24	rhickey	krukow: right, but we want releases of things that are relatively stable, as is master right now
16:24	krukow	I'm not sure if it is my object oriented mind kicking in but I am missing deftype
16:25	krukow	sure - I value stability highly
16:25	stuartsierra	rhickey: I'm volunteering. :)
16:25	rhickey	but yes, deftype/protocols fill an important gap
16:25	rhickey	stuartsierra: great!
16:26	stuartsierra	I'll start by making a which-release-are-you-using survey
16:26	hiredman	clojurebot: stuartsierra is volunteering
16:26	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:27	stuartsierra	rhickey: What do you want to know, besides http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dFJSd1p4YXh0d0VxV0xjdk42MTU5RkE6MA
16:28	chouser	what's a SNAPSHOT release?
16:28	spuz	is there a command to reset the state of the REPL?
16:28	stuartsierra	The maven repositories take snapshots of master roughly every 24 hours
16:28	rhickey	is that from hudson?
16:28	chouser	is that just some version of master we've chose ourselves, vs. "github master" being continuouly upgrading?
16:28	chouser	ah
16:29	the-kenny	What are chunked sequences? :)
16:29	stuartsierra	chouser: I was thinking keeping it up to date regularly.
16:30	twbray	Wondering why if-let only lets you do one binding... I have two or three bindings to do and some forms to run, but only if the first binding is non-nil. Why would that be wrong?
16:31	chouser	stuartsierra: ok. I recently switch our work code from 1.0 to some a recent 1.1-snap, but probably won't change it again until 1.1.0. wasn't sure which answer I'd pick for that.
16:31	rhickey	stuartsierra: question 1 is good enough for me. Maybe asking people if they know how to get from github or maven. But if we do release candidates we can make that just a download for everyone
16:32	chouser	twbray: some people that ask for mutliple if-let bindings only want the "true" case if all the bindings are true. you're asking for something different?
16:32	rhickey	twbray: if if-let did multiple bindings, it would be unclear as to which would be involved in the conditional
16:32	KirinDave	twbray: It's probably just historical. This is why we have macros and -contrib.
16:33	twbray	Hmm... I read the docs and assumed it would key off the first binding.
16:33	spuz	yes, what are chunked sequences? :)
16:33	twbray	chouser: Yep... I can see the ambiguity.
16:34	krukow	spuz http://blip.tv/file/2301367
16:34	chouser	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Chunked_Seqs
16:34	chouser	hm, that's pretty thin
16:34	twbray	So I'm left with (let [x (some complex fun)] (if x (let [bunch of other bindings]. Not terrible I guess.
16:34	stuartsierra	ok, changed the questions a bit: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dFJSd1p4YXh0d0VxV0xjdk42MTU5RkE6MA
16:35	hiredman	twbray: you can still use if-let
16:36	spuz	krukow: thanks, it says "Rich Hickey, inventor of Clojure, talks about the new "chunked seq" architecture which allows first-order Clojure functions such as map to as fast (or faster) than hand-coded loops." why would that be a bad thing? Why ask the question in the questionnaire?
16:36	KirinDave	twbray: Why not try and get a macro into contrib? I'm sure people would use it. It sounds useful.
16:36	spuz	(obviously, I still need to watch the video, but just incase it's not obvious...)
16:36	rhickey	stuartsierra: I recently made another milestone - Approved backlog - into which we can move things from Next Release that aren't going in, in order to use Next Release as a punch list
16:36	stuartsierra	ok
16:37	hiredman	spuz: it can alter the lazy nature of seqs
16:37	spuz	ah I see
16:37	hiredman	because chunked seqs are processed in 32 item chunks
16:37	rhickey	http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/chunks.pdf
16:38	twbray	hiredman: Right... (if-let [x (some complex func)] (let [ other bindings] ...
16:38	chouser	twbray: that's not an uncommon pattern in my code, fwiw.
16:41	falkor2	hi, why is there clojure.lang.PersistentList$1 ? My question regards the $1, I seem to see it inside macros...
16:41	chouser	falkor2: that's normal Java naming for a anonymous inner class
16:42	twbray	chouser: Thanks, that's the kind of thing a n00b likes to hear.
16:42	falkor2	yep, I know, but sometimes it is not therre
16:42	rhickey	looks like there are a dozen or so patches waiting in backlog, but they should probably wait until after 1.1 unless trivial
16:43	falkor2	(println (type '(1)) -gives persistentlist (no $1)
16:44	hiredman	falkor2: some annonymous subtype of plist
16:44	falkor2	`(println (type ~lst)) [Note in macro], gets $1
16:44	hiredman	implementation detail
16:44	hiredman	ignore it
16:44	chouser	,(class clojure.lang.PersistentList/creator)
16:44	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$1
16:45	falkor2	The problem is that I am doing type inspection (probably not in the best way...)
16:45	chouser	PersistentList$1 is a function, not a list
16:45	hiredman	falkor2: don't
16:46	chouser	falkor2: lst may not be what you think it is, or may be being misused.
16:46	stuartsierra	rhickey: any more questions for the survey, before I post it to the group?
16:46	falkor2	I am doing macros (newbie) and I think I am being bitten by some confusion still lingering in my head...
16:47	rhickey	stuartsierra: the whole 'reliability' part of it seems a little weird
16:47	stuartsierra	What do you want to know?
16:47	stuartsierra	I thought that was the point.
16:47	chouser	falkor2: seems plausible. maybe paste somewhere your macro that's includes the `(println (type ~lst)) ?
16:48	rhickey	I think we get the reliability reports on the group etc, I really want to know if they are using master yet
16:48	stuartsierra	ok, I'll drop that question.
16:48	rhickey	i.e. are we close to 1.1. from a community feedback perspective, or have most of them never tried the master code, and we'll be seeing a lot of new reports once we do a release candidate
16:48	stuartsierra	And the "Describe any reliability problems..." question.
16:49	stuartsierra	ok, just 3 questions now
16:49	rhickey	it used to be, most people were on trunk, so when the bug reports eased, we were good to go. Now, I'm unsure what the ratios are, and with more, and more conservative, users, we might need a decent beta period
16:50	KirinDave	So where is the right place to get the most current stable clojure?
16:50	KirinDave	The github?
16:50	stuartsierra	KirinDave: define stable :)
16:50	stuartsierra	There is one official release, 1.0.
16:50	KirinDave	stuartsierra: Well, usable.
16:50	KirinDave	yes, but no one seems to use that. :D
16:50	KirinDave	They want the new features.
16:50	chouser	well the 'master' features at least, if not the 'new' ones.
16:51	falkor2	chouser: I think I have to do a bit more self-investigation before I pester you guys ;)
16:51	stuartsierra	All the major new features (reify, deftype, defprotocol) are on the "new" branch.
16:51	stuartsierra	The "master" branch seems to be quite stable.
16:51	KirinDave	So are people going builds from http://github.com/richhickey/clojure:master?
16:51	chouser	falkor2: ok, that's up to you. Don't get too frustrated though before asking.
16:51	stuartsierra	But "master" doesn't have any whiz-bang new features.
16:51	chouser	falkor2: and if it's about a macro, we have a form to help ask the question well.
16:52	chouser	~macro help
16:52	clojurebot	macro help is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/macro.html
16:52	rhickey	it's all usable, that's always been the Clojure way. some of the very latest features are works in progress, but you won't have existting code that a) uses them, or b) will be broken by them
16:52	KirinDave	Cool, so it's relatively safe to run off new then?
16:52	rhickey	if you use the latest features, you are helping me define them with your feedback
16:52	chouser	stuartsierra: that's just an age thing. master has futures, chunked seqs -- good stuff!
16:52	falkor2	I have to say, coming from Prolog, that evaluation in lisp is made a bit complex and convuluted
16:52	stuartsierra	chouser: Oh, I thought futures were in 1.0
16:53	rhickey	KirinDave: master is the best choice unless you are really interested in the new features and testing
16:53	chouser	stuartsierra: hm, I may be thinking of promises
16:53	stuartsierra	chouser: promises, promises
16:53	chouser	exactly
16:53	rhickey	there are a ton of new things in master, we're all just used to them already
16:53	chouser	exactly
16:54	stuartsierra	We're blase'
16:54	rhickey	nice
16:54	chouser	anyone want to bet on survey results?
16:54	stuartsierra	ok, ready to go? http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dFJSd1p4YXh0d0VxV0xjdk42MTU5RkE6MA
16:54	chouser	I say <20% of responders on 1.0
16:54	rhickey	stuartsierra: sure - we'll know more than we do now! Thanks
16:54	stuartsierra	no problem
16:55	rhickey	stuartsierra: wanna stick a logo on it?
16:55	hiredman	you should stick a picture of a wallaby on it
16:55	chouser	if you like it you should stick a ring on it
16:55	rhickey	hiredman: because?
16:56	chouser	um. nevermind.
16:56	hiredman	they're cute
16:56	stuartsierra	rhickey: don't know how to do that on GDocs.
16:56	hiredman	chouser: ha ha
16:56	rhickey	stuartsierra: ok
16:56	stuartsierra	and I already emailed it to the lists
16:57	chouser	the url doesn't change when you edit the doc
16:57	chouser	oh, inlined. nevermind
16:58	rhickey	it's fine
16:58	falkor2	There are other ways to get clojure, BTW: I mostly use whatever comes in enclojure....
16:58	technomancy	like leiningen. =)
16:59	chouser	stuartsierra: care to share the results url?
16:59	chouser	so that I can obsessively reload it?
17:00	stuartsierra	technomancy: ok, added "IDE/Package manager" as an option.
17:00	stuartsierra	chouser: yes, hang on
17:00	chouser	while you're fixing things, typo on "the help me"
17:01	stuartsierra	chouser: thanks, fixed
17:02	rhickey	looks like 2 how do you get questions now
17:03	stuartsierra	yes
17:03	stuartsierra	from the early responses
17:03	stuartsierra	oops, ok, fixed
17:06	stuartsierra	Results link: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AuEMlyQZQkUMdFJSd1p4YXh0d0VxV0xjdk42MTU5RkE&hl=en
17:06	chouser	stuartsierra: thanks
17:07	stuartsierra	"Form-> Show summary" gives you pie charts.
17:07	zaphar_ps	one question is shown twice
17:07	stuartsierra	zaphar_ps: fixed now
17:07	stuartsierra	Oh, in the results? yes, that's a leftover
17:07	zaphar_ps	ahh ok
17:08	zaphar_ps	github is obviously the most frequent method to get clojure shown so far
17:09	chouser	"in early results"
17:09	zaphar_ps	which probably features the early adopter type crowd
17:09	chouser	with less than 2% of precincts reporting...
17:09	zaphar_ps	:-)
17:09	stuartsierra	Ok, that's my contribution for the day, got to go.
17:09	chouser	I can't choose the "form" menu
17:10	chouser	(to see the pie charts)
17:10	stuartsierra	huh
17:10	zaphar_ps	me either
17:10	stuartsierra	Are you logged in with a Google acct?
17:10	chouser	stuartsierra: don't worry about it. go do what you need to do.
17:10	chouser	yeah
17:11	stuartsierra	Don't know how to fix that.
17:13	chouser	heh. I "made a copy" of the spreadsheet, and there I can choose form->show summary, but it says 0 responses
17:14	hiredman	clojurebot: ~logs
17:14	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
17:17	falkor2	OK, I think a more clever question would be: Is is possible to know, in a macro, the type of an object without executing it? Say, I do (mymacro (1 2 3) (println 3) ) And are able to see the type of both lists, and execute the 2nd?
17:17	hiredman	the type of what?
17:17	hiredman	the datastructure passed to the macro?
17:17	falkor2	Whatever I pass to the macro...
17:18	hiredman	the type of the result of calling eval on the datastructure?
17:18	falkor2	so in this case, There are 2 lists
17:18	falkor2	no, not the result
17:18	falkor2	but I would like to inspect the objects without executing them
17:18	hiredman	why are you interested in concrete types?
17:19	falkor2	mainly in seeing the first element and do a decision on how to proceed
17:19	hiredman	falkor2: have you looked at multimethods?
17:19	falkor2	I need something a bit more general
17:19	hiredman	…
17:19	falkor2	let me explain
17:19	hiredman	then you haven't looked at multimethods
17:20	hiredman	multimethods let you define a dispatch function
17:20	hiredman	that is about as general as you can get
17:20	funkenblatt	i think he wants to decide whether to evaluate based on the car of each list
17:20	falkor2	I have, and I have code with mm on github
17:20	falkor2	let me explain
17:20	hiredman	funkenblatt: very doable
17:21	falkor2	I want to be able to do something like this ((new StringBuffer "bla") (add "ble") (add "bli"))
17:21	falkor2	The result being a SB "blablebli"
17:21	the-kenny	falkor2: doto?
17:21	falkor2	maybe, let me reread doto
17:21	hiredman	,(doto (StringBuilder.) (.add "a") (.add "b"))
17:21	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: add for class java.lang.StringBuilder
17:22	hiredman	bah
17:22	hiredman	,(doto (StringBuffer.) (.add "a") (.add "b"))
17:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: add for class java.lang.StringBuffer
17:22	the-kenny	,(doto (StringBuilder.) (.append "a") (.append "b"))
17:22	clojurebot	#<StringBuilder ab>
17:22	hiredman	right
17:22	the-kenny	,(.getString (doto (StringBuilder.) (.append "a") (.append "b")))
17:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getString for class java.lang.StringBuilder
17:22	the-kenny	...
17:22	hiredman	the-kenny: toString
17:22	hiredman	or just str
17:22	the-kenny	,(.str (doto (StringBuilder.) (.append "a") (.append "b")))
17:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: str for class java.lang.StringBuilder
17:22	hiredman	the-kenny: str is not a method
17:23	funkenblatt	well in any case looks like my interpretation of what he wanted was completely wrong
17:23	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/222974
17:23	the-kenny	hm.. I think falkor2 knows what we mean
17:23	falkor2	I think doto is probably enough. Newbie questions, sorry
17:24	falkor2	My objective is to be able to create tree like structures in an easy fashion
17:24	falkor2	(think lots of swing components embedded in one another)
17:25	the-kenny	Maybe something like clojure.zip?
17:25	the-kenny	(I'm not sure what you want to do)
17:26	hiredman	swing is very imperative
17:26	hiredman	I don't you want to use zippers for interacting with it
17:26	hiredman	doubt
17:27	the-kenny	hiredman: I thought about creating and traversing the tree structure with zippers
17:27	falkor2	Mainly I am trying to construct tree like structure of Java objects in an easy way (think a JFrame which contains a Menubar, which contains menus, and so on and so forth)
17:27	falkor2	Trying to devise a way with little boillerplate code
17:27	hiredman	the-kenny: zippers are a functional tree editing construct
17:28	hiredman	there would be a significant mismatch for bidirectional swing<->zipper
17:31	falkor2	I am going to research doto, thanks. My final objective is to have a dynamic way to construct Java tree-like structures easily.
17:32	hiredman	you migh do some kind of batched convert to zipper, edit, update ui
17:34	falkor2	I am going to have a look, thanks for the tips.
17:42	cow-orker	,char?
17:42	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: char? in this context
17:42	cow-orker	why is this so....?
17:43	hiredman	because the function does not exist
17:43	the-kenny	cow-orker: My repl doesn't lnow this function either.
17:43	KirinDave1	Man I updated lein and broke it
17:43	cow-orker	sure, but why?
17:43	KirinDave1	I spend like 5x as much time futzing with lein as I do actually coding.
17:43	cow-orker	,integer?
17:43	clojurebot	#<core$integer_QMARK___5623 clojure.core$integer_QMARK___5623@78fac9>
17:43	cow-orker	,vector?
17:43	clojurebot	#<core$vector_QMARK___4488 clojure.core$vector_QMARK___4488@346801>
17:43	hiredman	cow-orker: no one has bothered to write it
17:43	cow-orker	etc etc .... but no char?
17:43	cow-orker	ok, fair enough :)
17:44	hiredman	(partial instance? Character)
17:44	KirinDave1	Is "lein new _name_" or "lein help" broken for everyone or just me?
17:45	hiredman	,((partial instance? Character) \a)
17:45	clojurebot	true
17:45	hiredman	,((partial instance? Character) 1)
17:45	clojurebot	false
17:45	technomancy	KirinDave1: help is broken due to a Clojure bug if lein has been AOT'd.
17:45	KirinDave1	technomancy: Same deal for new?
17:45	technomancy	KirinDave1: not that I know
17:46	KirinDave1	technomancy: "Could not locate leiningen/new__init.class or leiningen/new.clj on classpath", you know?
17:46	cow-orker	hiredman: thanks. Was looking at core.clj and just wondered if there was something special wrt characters. Guess not :)
17:46	technomancy	KirinDave1: you're on 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT and have updated your bin script?
17:47	technomancy	(new didn't exist in 0.5.0)
17:47	KirinDave1	Oh, well
17:47	KirinDave1	When i pulled from the url in your repo
17:47	KirinDave1	i got 0.5.0
17:50	KirinDave1	technomancy: Following the directions in the mailing list seems to work better. :)
17:52	Chousuke	technomancy: good work with leiningen btw. It seemed to me to appear out of thin air and now I see mentions of it everywhere :P
17:52	technomancy	KirinDave1: right; the readme points to with the stable branch
17:52	technomancy	Chousuke: thanks! it's obvious now that it's addressing pain that a lot of people feel.
17:52	Chousuke	now Clojure itself needs to start using it.
17:53	Chousuke	:P
17:53	technomancy	chicken, meet egg.
17:56	funkenblatt	delicious delicious egg
17:56	funkenblatt	man now i'm hungry
17:59	KirinDave1	Man, I just have no luck with lein.
18:09	technomancy	KirinDave1: I'm a bit busy right now, but there's a mailing list for leiningen: http://groups.google.com/group/leiningen
18:45	ambient	clojure-mode from ELPA is telling me that clojure-install is deprecated. what should I use instead?
18:48	technomancy	ambient: M-x slime should download Clojure if swank-clojure is installed.
18:49	ambient	nvm, i was a bit reading impaired. technomancy.us/swank-clojure seems to be the way
18:50	ambient	technomancy: ok, ty
18:52	ambient	it installed version 1.0.0 :(
18:53	ambient	and i dont even know where to
18:53	technomancy	ambient: sounds like you want option 2 then
18:53	_ato`	ambient: ~/.swank-clojure
18:55	_ato`	I also had to move swank.jar into ~/.clojure to get M-x swank-clojure-project to work :\
18:59	KirinDave1	Man, too much time spent trying to get this to work. :\
18:59	KirinDave1	I am just gonna go back to lein 0.5.0
18:59	KirinDave1	Good thing I have lots of time today with my 800000 installs of windows.
19:00	_ato`	KirinDave1: yeah, best to stick with stable version unless you want to hack on lein itself.
19:01	KirinDave1	_ato: Probably should remove the .jar tho
19:01	KirinDave1	It seems completely broken.
19:01	KirinDave1	Referring to a method that does not exist at invocation, etc. etc. :)
19:02	_ato	yeah, you probably know but they're installed under: ~/.m2/repository/leiningen/leiningen/
19:02	KirinDave1	Yes.
19:02	KirinDave1	The 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT invokes main when I think it means to invoke "-main"
19:04	technomancy	no, it got renamed to "main" in master; that's correct. we're no longer gen-classing.
19:23	tomoj	is there something wrong with "java -cp lib/* clojure.main" in a swank-clojure-project-style project?
19:23	qed	wow I need to learn Java
19:23	tomoj	oh, yes, of course
19:23	tomoj	needs to be quoted
19:24	qed	I've been secretly hoping this whole time learning clojure that I'd be able to completely ignore Java
19:24	qed	but it looks like a dirty necessity
19:24	tomoj	yup :/
19:24	qed	To what extent seems to be the question
19:24	tomoj	they taught me java here at school, luckily. but I still haven't forced myself to learn ant or maven or..
19:25	_ato	KirinDave1: ah.. I just realised what the problem is, technomancy's snapshot is 4 days out of date
19:26	tomoj	packaging seems to be the dirtiest part to me, maybe new clojure tools will help hide that from us :)
19:27	qed	it'll get better
19:27	technomancy	_ato: I guess I should put a note that self-install should not be relied upon for snapshot versions
19:28	technomancy	it's so easy to get out of sync
19:28	_ato	technomancy: yeah, probably a good idea to chuck a check in the lein script as well that spits out a warning if the version ends in snapshot
19:28	qed	i do all of my clojure/swank/slime setup manually
19:28	qed	it just seems cleaner that way, no offense technomancy
19:32	ambient	this bothers me, to use clojure efficiently there still remains a significant threshold for not-so-smart people
19:33	tomoj	isn't there clojurebox or something?
19:34	ambient	certainly. i'm just lamenting that in my view, there's no "perfect" development environment yet, in which i would feel comfortable in, without wanting some random feature or convenience
19:34	ambient	i could make emacs such, but in my experience, it becomes with a significant burden
19:43	chouser	I'm hopeful. Lisp was not an acceptable lisp, and then came clojure.
19:43	chouser	emacs is not an acceptable emacs, but maybe something will come along.
19:44	technomancy	lexical scoping and threading in emacs 24!
19:44	chouser	hm
19:44	chouser	really?
19:44	technomancy	chouser: there's talk of it
19:45	chouser	with those, it might make an acceptable clojure compilation target.
19:45	technomancy	possibly coroutines instead of threads; that's fine w/ me
19:45	technomancy	chouser: I've thought about that, believe me. =)
19:46	hiredman	best to start now
19:46	hiredman	clojure subset to elisp compiler
19:46	hiredman	"translator"
19:46	technomancy	might be fun to compile directly to elisp bytecode
19:47	hiredman	that would be even better
19:47	chouser	no point in starting pre-cinc
19:47	hiredman	I wasn't aware there was elisp bytecode
19:47	hiredman	chouser: not a full clojure port
19:47	hiredman	more like code gen guided by feed in clojure forms
19:47	technomancy	hiredman: someone ported a destructuring version of let already; it's pretty nice
19:48	hiredman	emacs :(
19:48	qed	gah I get so confused at this Creating & Compiling Java Classes in Clojure section of Stuart's book
19:49	_ato	qed: with anything in particular?
19:49	funkenblatt	i thought emacs has had destructuring bind in the 'cl package for a while
19:49	qed	i worked through this section last night _ato -- im going to try my luck again. If i have an issue ill ask though, thanks :)
19:51	qed	is the (.. class-or-inst form & forms) special form kind of like (->)?
19:51	_ato	yes
19:52	technomancy	funkenblatt: not with hashes
19:52	funkenblatt	ah
19:52	_ato	qed: it came from before the (.foo obj) notation was introduced IIRC. Better to do (-> obj (.foo) (.bar)) rather than (.. obj (foo) (bar)), as you can also use clojure functions with ->
19:53	qed	ok _ato -- here's where I get confused, and this might just be my java ignorance, but the (proxy class-and-interfaces super-cons-args & fns) is scary to me
19:53	qed	ah right _ato that makes sense
19:53	_ato	hehe it is scary!
19:53	_ato	class-and-interfaces = classes and interfaces you are subclassing/implementing with proxy
19:54	_ato	super-cons-args = arguments to the superclass' constructor, so if you're subclassing class Foo and need to pass in some args like: (Foo. 1 2 3) this is where you'd put them
19:55	_ato	both of them should be vectors
19:55	qed	okay so far so good
19:55	_ato	and fns is jus the fns you want to override. So if you want do override. (.foo obj 1 2 3), you'd put (foo [x y z] ...) there
20:08	qed	_ato: i think what is confusing me is...and this might sound ridiculous...but...why?
20:08	qed	like...what are we doing essentially by using proxy
20:09	tomoj	qed: are you totally new to java? or you know a bit?
20:09	qed	I know some Ruby, I took some AP Java in high school, a semester of it
20:10	tomoj	well in ruby you can make a subclass and override some methods
20:10	qed	MyController < ApplicationController
20:10	qed	something like that?
20:11	tomoj	yeah, but..
20:11	tomoj	I guess it's sortof like a ruby singleton class maybe
20:11	tomoj	you just get a single instance of this new class
20:12	tomoj	so like if you want to make a JFrame instance but override some methods, instead of creating a new class MyJFrame and instantiating it, like you would in java, you can just proxy JFrame
20:12	tomoj	you get an instance of an anonymous subclass with your overridden methods
20:12	qed	oh okay okay, i think i see where this is going
20:13	hiredman	(except extending JFrame like every java gui tutorial does is a horrible idea)
20:13	qed	(def print-element-handler (proxy [DefaultHandler [] (startElement [uri local qname atts] (println (format "Saw element: %s" qname)))))
20:13	_ato	yeah
20:14	qed	so we are making an anonymouse instance of DefaultHandler and overriding startElement?
20:14	hiredman	you are missing a ]
20:14	qed	ah yeah, so i am
20:14	_ato	qed: it's basically because many java libraries force you to subclass one if their types in order to use their API
20:14	hiredman	_ato: if you are lucky, one of their interfaces
20:15	qed	so what is [uri local qname atts]
20:15	hiredman	the arguments to the method
20:15	_ato	it's the arguments passed to .startElement
20:15	qed	do they need to be named exactly like the the method names them?
20:15	hiredman	proxy generates a class
20:15	hiredman	qed: nope
20:15	qed	so i could just do q1 q2 q3 q4
20:15	_ato	no, it's just like (defn startElement [uri local qname attrs] ...)
20:15	_ato	yeah
20:16	_ato	except that it creates a java method
20:16	_ato	instead of a clojure function
20:16	qed	sure, okay
20:16	_ato	(method meaning it's attached to a class instead of being "global" like a function)
20:16	hiredman	proxy stubs out the java methods in the generated class, and just passes the arguments off the to clojure fn created from the proxy form
20:16	qed	thanks guys, im gonna get back to playing with this -- just for fun, does anyone have an easy example of a Java class/method I could use proxy on?
20:16	hiredman	ACtionListener
20:16	qed	im gonna try to write a couple of them
20:16	hiredman	ActionListener
20:17	hiredman	FileFilter?
20:19	tomoj	hiredman: got disconnected, was the verdict horrible or not horrible?
20:19	qed	like: (def action-performed (proxy [ActionListener] [] (actionPerformed [event] (println (format "Performed %s" event)))))
20:20	tomoj	I think the only time I've ever used proxy was for a KeyListener
20:21	hiredman	tomoj: verdict on?
20:21	tomoj	which overrode keyPressed to call a handler-fn on the event
20:21	hiredman	qed: are you familiar with java's anonymous classes?
20:21	tomoj	oh, is proxying swing classes always horrible?
20:21	tomoj	or did you just mean JFrame in particular
20:21	qed	hiredman: im familiar with Ruby's
20:22	hiredman	does ruby hava anonymous classes?
20:22	qed	the "ghost" class, singleton class, eigenclass, uniclass, etc.
20:22	tomoj	ruby has anonymous classes?
20:22	qed	yes
20:22	tomoj	oh, that's sorta like proxying but backwards I think
20:22	tomoj	when you proxy you make an anonymous class and then instantiate it once
20:22	hiredman	http://blog.jayfields.com/2008/02/ruby-creating-anonymous-classes.html
20:23	tomoj	with the singleton class you've got an instance of some class and then you can stick your overridden methods in for just that instance, so, same effect I guess
20:23	hiredman	anyway
20:23	hiredman	yeah, proxy creates an instance of an anonymous class
20:23	tomoj	in ruby proxy'ing would be unnecessary since we don't have to dance around to satisfy java's type system anyway
20:24	hiredman	well, it creates an anonymous class, and then returns an instance
20:25	qed	so it creates this anon class, and then an instance of it with my overridden methods, i guess im still struggling to see applicable scenarios not having worked with Java much at all
20:25	qed	that's really where im really trying to get clarification, some examples of this in action
20:25	tomoj	well, for example, swing wants you to give it a KeyListener to listen to key events in the GUI
20:25	_ato	qed: java doesn't have first class functions
20:25	_ato	you can't pass a function to another function in java
20:26	tomoj	I don't want to make a java class which subclasses KeyListener, so I just proxy it
20:26	_ato	so you basically use anonymous classes or subclasses instead
20:26	tomoj	yeah, in clojure I'd just be able to pass a fn to call on the key event I suppose
20:27	tomoj	Runnable too, eh?
20:27	qed	Callable/Runnable yeah
20:27	qed	_ato: when you say fn in java, you mean method, no?
20:28	qed	we're essentially creating an anonymous function from some Java method?
20:28	_ato	yeah, it doesn't have functions and it's methods aren't first class, they don't exist as objects themselves. You can't pass them around. It doesn't even have function pointers. (leaving aside reflection, which doesn't really count)
20:29	tomoj	eh
20:29	tomoj	I think we're essentially doing some little dance to make up for the fact that java can't do that
20:29	qed	so we're sort of creating an abstract version of a java method
20:29	qed	so we can use it all over the place in clojure
20:30	tomoj	where you would pass a fn in clojure, you instead pass a singleton of some anonymous class
20:31	tomoj	java code you're interoping with wants some object which extends/implements certain classes/interfaces - it doesn't care that clojure is dynamic
20:31	qed	is there a way to get the methods for a Java class in my REPL?
20:31	tomoj	so you use proxy to make a one-off subclass/implementation
20:31	tomoj	c.c.repl-utils has show
20:32	tomoj	if you're using slime you should be able to use the slime inspector as well
20:32	tomoj	like C-c I Math
20:32	qed	awesome, that's a big help
20:33	qed	okay okay, this is starting to make real sense now
20:33	_ato	What I find really funny is a lot of java folks have been against adding closures/lambda expressions to java because they're "too complex". So instead you've got to do to this annoying subclass / anonymous class dance which actually turns out to be harder and more complex.
20:34	tomoj	I remember really enjoying learning about anonymous/inner classes because they seemed so esoteric
20:34	qed	We're just making some version of a Java method which implements a Class/Interface, so we can fake Java into talking to our version of it which we create with a proxy
20:34	_ato	qed: exactly
20:34	tomoj	I guess maybe they're much easier to implement in java, though?
20:34	qed	tomoj: yeah i really enjoyed the ruby metaprogramming stuff
20:34	qed	very fun
20:36	tomoj	I had heard rumors about closures coming to java, though
20:37	qed	okay so I have (def get-month (proxy [Date] [] (getMonth [month] (println (format "The month is %d" month)))))
20:37	qed	what am i doing wrong there?
20:40	tomoj	getMonth doesn't take a parameter
20:41	tomoj	so "month" is not what you think it is, I think
20:43	tomoj	,(.getMonth (proxy [Date] [] (getMonth [] (println "foo") 3)))
20:43	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
20:44	tomoj	,(import 'java.util.Date)
20:44	clojurebot	java.util.Date
20:44	tomoj	,(.getMonth (proxy [Date] [] (getMonth [] (println "foo") 3)))
20:44	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
20:44	tomoj	huh.
20:44	qed	there we go
20:44	tomoj	well, that works fine for me, prints foo and returns 3
20:44	tomoj	though that's a pretty strange example :)
20:45	qed	(def print-crazy-date (proxy [Date] [] (toString [] (str (. (java.util.Random) nextInt)))))
20:45	qed	(. print-crazy-date toString)
20:45	qed	err forget a . after Random
20:46	qed	forgot*
20:46	tomoj	crazy indeed
20:46	qed	hehe
20:49	qed	okay this is making more and more sense.. (.start (Thread. (proxy [Runnable] [] (run [] (println "I ran!")))))
20:50	qed	Thread. wants something that is Runnable, so we're giving it what it wants
20:51	tomoj	yep
20:51	hiredman	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/4303a1a0bc4bdfa5?hl=en <-- good question
20:51	tomoj	though I think agents make all that unnecessary in clojure, luckily
20:51	tomoj	but maybe if you're interoping with some library that wants Runnables..
20:51	hiredman	clojure Fns are Runnable
20:51	qed	#()
20:52	qed	and Callable
20:52	hiredman	,(ancestors (class #()))
20:52	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.AFunction clojure.lang.Obj java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.AFn java.util.concurrent.Callable java.lang.Runnable java.util.Comparator clojure.lang.IFn clojure.lang.Fn :clojure.contrib.generic/any clojure.lang.IObj}
20:52	tomoj	well then I guess all that is unnecessary no matter what
20:52	qed	(.call #(println "foo"))
20:52	qed	,(.call #(println "foo"))
20:52	clojurebot	foo
20:53	tomoj	(.start (Thread. #(println "foo"))), nifty
20:53	qed	yeah definitely
20:53	hiredman	(future (println "foo"))
20:54	qed	,(future (println "foo"))
20:54	clojurebot	#<core$future_call$reify__7719@624159: nil>
20:54	qed	,(seq (future (println "foo")))
20:54	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$future_call$reify__7719
20:54	tomoj	I still have never used future
20:55	qed	,(future-call #(println "foo"))
20:55	clojurebot	#<core$future_call$reify__7719@1937976: :pending>
20:55	tomoj	,(let [the-future (future (println "foobar"))] [@the-future @the-future])
20:55	clojurebot	[nil nil]
20:56	tomoj	guess clojurebot doesn't want to print that
20:56	qed	why two calls to @the-future?
20:56	tomoj	but it only prints once :)
20:56	qed	it gives me nil twice
20:57	tomoj	because it still only prints once
20:57	tomoj	yeah, but only prints once
20:57	tomoj	(println returns nil)
20:58	qed	(let [the-future (future (str "foo!"))] [@the-future @the-future])
20:58	qed	,(let [the-future (future (str "foo!"))] [@the-future @the-future])
20:58	clojurebot	["foo!" "foo!"]
20:59	qed	,(let [the-future (future (str "foo!"))] [@the-future the-future])
20:59	clojurebot	["foo!" #<core$future_call$reify__7719@19c1908: "foo!">]
21:02	tomoj	,(time (let [the-future (future (Thread/sleep 1000) "foo")] [@the-future @the-future @the-future]))
21:02	clojurebot	["foo" "foo" "foo"]
21:02	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1030.109 msecs"
22:11	arohner	I have on the order of 1000 instances of clojure maps that I scan through, looking up values. If I convert that to a deftype that implements IPersistentMap, will things get faster?
22:12	chouser	the clojure maps all have the same keys?
22:12	chouser	if so, you should see a substantial speedup
22:15	arohner	chouser: yes, they all have the same keys, and do no assoc/disassoc
22:15	arohner	thanks
22:19	chouser	yeah, you should get an inlinable java method call instead of the hashmap algorithm implementation
22:35	arohner	oh, but they don't implement IFN, so I can't do (instance key)
22:36	arohner	is that planned/ a good idea?
23:01	cark	arohner : did you try (keyword instance) ?
23:01	arohner	cark: yes, that works
23:01	arohner	but my existing code uses (instance keyword) everywhere. I was hoping a deftype that implemented IPersistentMap would be a drop in replacement
23:03	cark	but wouldn't you loose the performance characteristics if this was done this way ?
23:04	cark	ohwell anyways i don't have this version of clojure installed yet =P
23:05	cark	oh i see your post
23:07	_ato	cark: (keyword instance) is actually faster for deftypes
23:08	_ato	it's as fast as a java field access
23:08	qed	You know I just realized that all of this channel is logged and my stupidity will forever be cast in stone.l
23:09	_ato	yeah, isn't it great. In 5 years time when you're an almightly Clojure god you can look back and think... "ah... how I have improved!" :-)
23:10	cark	mhh but if you include the IPersistentMap interface in your deftype, doesn't it behave like a struct-map ?
23:10	qed	_ato: haha you are by far the most positive person I've met in here -- I have to say I really appreciate your patience
23:10	kzar	qed: Yea I asked a question in here the other day, then I googled the problem and found what I said in the results..
23:10	qed	kzar: ahahaha
23:11	kzar	"Sweet this guy has the same problem... oh wait"
23:11	qed	To the internet: If you come to IRC and ask _ato, you will learn.
23:12	_ato	cark: hmm, you could well be right. I'm not sure, I haven't played with that enough
23:12	cark	looks like i might have to test it too =)
23:13	qed	And on top of that, _ato is humble, he didn't even take the opportunity to toot his horn.
23:13	qed	God damnit, _ato. What are you made of, man?
23:14	kzar	I bet you are the same person, you just opened up bitchx in a shell and started bigging yourself up
23:14	_ato	hahaha
23:14	qed	hahahaha
23:14	_mst	outed!
23:14	_mst	I'm _ato and so's my wife :P
23:14	qed	i am really offended you would think I'd use BitchX
23:14	qed	wtf is it, 1997?
23:15	cark	hey i'm using mirc !
23:15	qed	that's right, get the shame you feel out into the open
23:15	qed	you can only learn from this experience
23:15	_mst	another one for the IRC logs :)
23:16	qed	actually something ive taken to showing my future employers -- or at least mentioning in interviews is that if you google me you will find me, at age 13, on the vuln-dev mailing list
23:17	qed	asking if it is "okay" to extort money from a local ISP for a hole I found in their system
23:17	qed	that shit is never going away
23:18	qed	in fact, they mirrored it...twice
23:18	qed	and vuln-dev takes precedence over my crappy blog, so my 13 year old extortion scheme still reigns supreme in my google results
23:23	_ato	heh, if you google my name, which seems to be fairly common you will get: "The father of brainstorming" and "like Jesus, except I'm not dead."
23:25	qed	there's another guy in my state who is a drug addict and got arrested for statutory
23:26	qed	i need to be very clear on my middle initial
23:59	KirinDave1	I'm writing a program and I feel like I'm doing it wrong.