#clojure – 2009-11-13

2009-11-13

00:06	defn	If I have a big list of words like '("book", "shoe", "house",...), how can I use filter to get the list of words that are 3 characters
00:06	defn	I imagine it looks something like (filter (= (count (map #(seq %) word-list)) 3))
00:07	hiredman	uh
00:07	hiredman	nope
00:07	defn	hiredman: i love you for all of your help
00:07	hiredman	(filter (comp (partial = 3) count) list)
00:08	hiredman	(filter #(= 3 (count %)) list)
00:08	defn	what is comp
00:08	hiredman	compose
00:08	defn	the force is strong with you
00:10	defn	hiredman: thanks for your help
00:11	defn	hiredman: what is the best way to represent a list of 2000 strings in clojure? Is it the same if I use a list or a vector here? A list is probably best, yes?
00:12	hiredman	defn: sure
00:13	hiredman	if you don't need index access then use a list
00:13	defn	hiredman: your gists are really great btw
00:13	defn	lots of interesting clojure in there
00:13	defn	thanks
00:14	hiredman	:)
01:02	duncanm	la la la
01:08	hiredman	~ping
01:08	clojurebot	PONG!
01:08	Raynes	~pong
01:08	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
01:22	defn	I could use a little help on something
01:25	G0SUB_	defn: ask
01:25	defn	G0SUB_: im torn between asking and continuing to work at it
01:26	defn	but basically I was wondering if someone could explain to me the recur/loop forms
01:26	defn	I don't really understand how those work
01:26	G0SUB_	defn: sure.
01:27	G0SUB_	defn: loop establishes some binding and a recursion point, recur sets new values for those bindings and jumps back to that recursion point with new bindings.
01:28	G0SUB_	defn: does that help?
01:28	defn	im also really struggling to understand a way to a create a lazy sequence of something by using lazy-seq -- like let's say i have this setup: (* (/ 1 2) n (+ n 1)) -- let's say i want the first 100 values of that sequence starting at 1, how do you write that?
01:29	defn	G0SUB_: sort of, could you write a short piece of code and sort of step from the inside out?
01:29	defn	like (loop [a 1] (+ a 1) (recur ??
01:30	G0SUB_	defn: come here, I will explain - http://etherpad.com/VSekWefWtV
01:43	tomoj	I rather dislike etherpad :(
01:52	somnium	tomoj: how come? first time I've seen it its kind of cool, multi-player notepad++
01:55	tomoj	yeah it's cool I guess
01:55	tomoj	but I like IRC better
01:56	somnium	i like the shared code buffer thing anyway
01:59	ngoc	Hi, (slurp f) = Reads the file named by f into a string and returns it. Why the word "slurp" is used? Does it have a special history?
01:59	somnium	slurp is the sound people make when they eat noodles
01:59	somnium	think of ramen
02:00	wooby	is reduce lazy?
02:00	somnium	no
02:00	danlarkin	how could it be
02:01	somnium	i saw a lazy reduce somewhere, in contrib maybe
02:01	wooby	i would think the 2 argument form could be
02:01	somnium	its much more performant by not being lazy, and usually you want to realize the whole thing
02:02	somnium	the lazy variant i saw conses onto a collection, so it makes more sense
02:02	wooby	(take 10 (reduce (fn [xs y] (conj xs (+ (last xs) y))) [0] (iterate inc 1))) was what i wishfully came up with
02:03	hiredman	wooby: reduce can only be lazy in a language that has a lazy evaluation (haskell)
02:04	wooby	ahh i get it
02:04	wooby	because reduce would somehow need to pass on the 'knowledge' that the underlying list generation is happening lazily?
02:05	hiredman	in your eample reduce turns into something like (conj (conj [0] 1) 2)
02:05	wooby	aha
02:06	hiredman	the other thing to keep in mind is vector s are not lazy
02:06	hiredman	the only lazy thing in clojure is lazy-seqs
02:06	wooby	so if it were haskellish take would trigger un-nesting lazily? whereas on jvm that's just stack overflow
02:06	wooby	ok
02:06	wooby	ok that is very awesome to know, thank you
02:08	wooby	btw hiredman i saw your php lisp thing on the github there, how's that going? looked like you'd started on compilation
02:10	hiredman	wooby: I haven't touched it in sometime
02:10	hiredman	actually I was just thinking about it again
02:15	wooby	,(take 10 (rest (map first (iterate (fn [[a b]] [(+ a b) (inc b)]) [0 1])))))
02:15	clojurebot	(1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36 45 55)
02:17	hiredman	I'd like to get compilation working
02:18	wooby	i was looking around the other day for a jvm in php, i think that would be 'ideal'
02:18	wooby	parrot seems to be as close as it gets though
02:19	hiredman	a jvm in php?
02:19	hiredman	:\|
02:19	somnium	i'm not sure if php is the best language to implement a jvm in
02:19	_ato	O.o
02:20	wooby	i find it not the best language for much of anything... except employment :l
02:23	hiredman	actually I wrtoe a little cache thing in php.lisp that I used for this little utility I wrote for a guy
02:24	hiredman	so it's in use...
02:24	wooby	i have been reading it... i could really use it myself
02:29	_ato	http://technomancy.us/
02:29	_ato	^ multiplayer emacs thing "rudel"
02:29	_ato	haven't tried it myself yet
02:29	G0SUB_	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
02:30	_ato	G0SUB_: hehe.. I have that on pause in another window :)
02:30	G0SUB_	_ato: I already have the video downloaded :)
02:40	qed	technomancy: You have some borked links on your Gobby/Ebby post.
02:46	gilbertleung	hi...
02:46	gilbertleung	anyone around to answer a small question?
02:46	gilbertleung	how do i set out to STDERR?
02:47	_ato	(binding [out err] .... ) ?
02:47	gilbertleung	cool!
02:47	gilbertleung	_ato thanks again
02:47	gilbertleung	(i just didn't know it's err)
03:12	noidi	is there anything new in the "are we there yet" presentation?
03:12	noidi	the first few slides look awfully familiar
03:13	noidi	i mean, really familiar, nothign awful about them :)
03:14	somnium	I think he explains very eloquently how stateful OO is a broken model of time in a general sense
03:20	defn	Someone needs to make github, but for connecting coders in shared buffers.
03:21	defn	or connect it into github, so you can socially code
03:21	defn	on a given repo
03:23	noidi	ah, the slides have been online since (at least) september http://wiki.jvmlangsummit.com/Image:HickeyJVMSummit2009.pdf
03:23	noidi	good, this means that I'm not going crazy and I've really seen the slides before :)
04:39	ordnungswidrig	hi all
04:42	Licenser	hi ordnungswidrig
04:42	Licenser	hi rest of the world
04:42	Kjellski	Hi Licenser!
04:42	esj	Good Morning Clojurians.
04:43	Kjellski	Good Morning...
04:44	Kjellski	Could someone give me a hint why this doesn´t work? (.setPathName (javax.sip.SipFactory/getInstance) "nist.gof") Whereas this is giving me a SipFactory?(javax.sip.SipFactory/getInstance)
04:44	Kjellski	It just returns nil.
04:45	Licenser	I've a question, I try to use the jsch (Java SSH) library from clojure, I can connect send a command but when I try to read the output from the stream clojure hangs entirely :(
04:45	G0SUB_	I am trying to convert a nested combo of clojure maps and vectors to a bunch of different java datastructures which have their own constructors. what's the best way to do that?
04:46	G0SUB_	this is for MongoDB interop. Maps should be BasicDBObject and vectors should be BasicDBList.
04:46	Licenser	G0SUB_: ask somnium he has done that already when I'm not wrong
04:46	G0SUB_	somnium: ping
04:46	somnium	Kjellski: .setPathName seems to mutate the instance, so youre getting the return value, you can use (doto (javax.../getInstance) (.setPathName "nist.gof"))
04:47	Licenser	hi somnium :)
04:47	G0SUB_	somnium: need a bit of help with the above problem.
04:47	somnium	G0SUB_: well, you could use my congomongo from github, or you could just use the ClojureDBObject class if you don't need the extra stuff
04:47	somnium	Hi Licenser :)
04:48	G0SUB_	somnium: link?
04:48	somnium	http://github.com/somnium/congomongo
04:48	G0SUB_	somnium: found it. thanks
04:49	somnium	you don't need to use BasicDBList apparently, or at least that's what the devs told me. Not sure why its there
04:49	G0SUB_	somnium: well, inserts work with clojure vectors, update doesn't
04:50	Licenser	if someone would be so kind and have a look at https://gist.github.com/74dff9294228f4300caa (problem is that I can't read from ssh-in) and I've no idea what I'm doing wrong
04:51	Licenser	somnium: sadly I'll not really be using mongo so much any more, it is frustrating but since they nither do support my HW nor plan to ever do so I'll likely have to find an alternative
04:51	G0SUB_	Licenser: what hw are you using?
04:52	Licenser	G0SUB_: A Sun SPARC Server, and they don't want to support SPARC HW
04:53	Licenser	they say making it run on the different endianity will make it slower for everyone else - I wonder how ever other major database works around this but it seems as mongo can't
04:53	somnium	does the java driver support multiple updates? I think DBList just creates an object like { 1 :foo 2 :bar }. I recall licenser doing something with $set to get around it
04:54	somnium	Licenser: they can't just make a special build?
04:54	Licenser	$set isn't good since it interfeers with indexes and does not work for this or that
04:54	somnium	how strange
04:54	Licenser	somnium: was my impression but they say no :P
04:55	somnium	well, couch seems a nice alternative
04:55	somnium	it could use a clojure map-reduce dsl for sure (hint hint)
04:55	Licenser	hehe
04:56	Licenser	first I need to get the ssh stuff working :P that is work so it sadly has priority
05:01	k-factor	Hi, I'm just making my first steps with clojure (love the language), and I wonder if someone could take a look at https://gist.github.com/e6a04f4d63974fb37cc2 to make sure I'm in the right functional way of thinking?
05:05	Kjellski	Anyone got an idea of how to append things to the path in enclojure for a project?
05:06	somnium	Licenser: perhaps it should be wrapped in a with-open or similar? the only clojure io I've done has been with duck-streams
05:07	wooby	last statement results in NPE, thanks in advance for help: http://gist.github.com/233726
05:07	Kjellski	k-factor : I would recommend you to comment your functions a bit...
05:08	somnium	Kjellski: I think you can add libraries by right clicking on the lib icon in projects pane
05:09	somnium	(though I only tend to use netbeans when I find myself writing java)
05:09	Licenser	wooooh solved it!
05:09	somnium	nice, what was the trick?
05:32	CalJunior	on mutable data in go: http://bit.ly/4EGOFW
05:33	CalJunior	the question: "So, what's the right way of avoiding passing mutable structs or maps in channels? I realize "don't do that" is an easy answer, but it's not very useful :)."
05:33	Kjellski	Is it correct that if I want an interface to be implemented in clojure I need a proxy? And where can I find a complex example of that?
05:34	CalJunior	the money quote anwer from Ian Lance Taylor: "It's the only answer we have so far, sorry"
05:36	somnium	do they even have constant types? (I know D has this with concurrency in mind)
05:36	CalJunior	yes
05:36	G0SUB_	I have only one java file in my clj codebase. how do I easily AOT compile that file?
05:38	somnium	G0SUB_: you just need to java -cp it with what ever clojure jars it needs, netbeans makes it pretty easy
05:38	G0SUB_	somnium: hmm
05:38	somnium	er, javac I guess, I let the ide write build.xml
05:39	G0SUB_	somnium: can't clojure import .java files?
05:39	Kjellski	Noone with a good example with a translated java implements to clojure translation? The more complex the better.
05:40	somnium	I'm not too up on compilation with clojure, sometimes order matters, so I've just split things into separate jars
05:40	_ato	for ; i < len(b) && !isDigit(b[i]); i++ { ... }
05:40	_ato	oh man... C-style for loops without parens give me motion-sickness
05:45	CalJunior	:-)
05:45	Maddas	It's unfortunate to see how unnecessarily complicated and confusing the syntax in many other languages seems once you're used to more regular syntax :-)
05:45	Maddas	(Unfortunate because you slowly morph into a smug lisp weenie, and this is just the first step)
05:46	_ato	hehe
05:46	somnium	G0SUB_: at least in my experience, when I've had clojure code on the classpath that needs to find a .class file ant always choked before it got started. So it was simpler just to have two separate builds.
05:47	somnium	I think Python will always have a reasonable second place for syntax :)
05:47	k-factor	Kjellski: thanks for looking, I've added a comment to the "main" function. I'm striving to make this code as compact and as easy to read as a Ruby version.
05:48	somnium	(even Paul Graham spoke at one of their 'lesser-language' conventions)
05:50	febeling	Hi. I have trouble accessing a static member dynamically, when I dont have the literal symbol.
05:51	Chousuke	febeling: you need to use the java reflection APIs or eval
05:51	febeling	ah, really? ok
05:52	Chousuke	but of course, the real problem might be elsewhere
05:52	febeling	so there is nothing like (. Level (symbol "ERROR"))
05:52	_ato	febeling: (eval `(. Math ~(symbol "PI")))
05:52	Chousuke	you really shouldn't need to do that.
05:53	febeling	what wrong with it
05:53	Chousuke	well... it's eval. :P
05:53	febeling	hehe, ok
05:53	Chousuke	what would you use this for?
05:53	susheel	quit clojure
05:53	febeling	but should i then resort to a cond?
05:53	Chousuke	maybe.
05:53	Chousuke	or perhaps a macro
05:54	febeling	the cond would be a bit like the C solution, it feels
05:54	febeling	not too dynamic
05:55	Chousuke	is the string defining the symbol known only at runtime? :/
05:55	febeling	depends, but that was my initial idea
05:55	Kjellski	k-factor : Sorry, I´ve got to go... but I´ll look that up the next time...
05:56	Chousuke	febeling: I really can't tell whether making it dynamic like that is a good idea or not without knowing what the context is :/
05:57	febeling	well, i could read all static fields in advance and build a macro ofc
05:57	Chousuke	you can also use reflection in a macro.
05:57	Chousuke	and produce code based on the reflection :)
05:57	G0SUB_	somnium: how do I convert a mongo datastructure to clojure map using clojuredbobject?
05:58	febeling	Chouske: thats i meant
05:58	somnium	G0SUB_: .toClojure
05:58	Chousuke	I guess eval is sometimes needed for some things but I haven't encountered any :P
05:58	G0SUB_	somnium: how to I create a clojuredbobject from a basicdbobject?
05:59	somnium	hmm
05:59	somnium	haven't done that much
05:59	somnium	but (doto clojuredbobject (.putAll basicdbobject) should work)
05:59	G0SUB_	somnium: hmm
05:59	_ato	Chousuke: it's needed for clojurebot! :p
06:00	somnium	usually I've set every collections class to clojure dbobject so no conversion needed
06:01	somnium	some operations unfortunately still return basicdbobjects, like json/parse and errors... working on a patch for the java driver but its a bit messy and not quite a priority
06:01	_ato	febeling: but yeah, generally it's better to do that sort of stuff at compile-time if possible. reflection/eval is slow and messy
06:02	Chousuke	_ato: right. because clojurebot is a repl :P that doesn't count.
06:02	febeling	_ato: if it is not in the inner loop i don't really bother about speed, tbh. thanks for the eval line
06:03	Chousuke	in clojure.core there's at least definline which uses eval.
06:05	_ato	although definline does it at compile-time
06:15	G0SUB_	somnium: did you mean .putClojure?
06:16	somnium	G0SUB_: .putClojure create a clojuredbobject from a persistent map
06:16	G0SUB_	somnium: I don't see putAll in the file.
06:16	somnium	basicdbobject is a java.util.HashMap so .putAll should probably be used
06:16	G0SUB_	ok
06:16	somnium	use repl-utils/show
06:16	somnium	its there, trust me :)
06:17	G0SUB_	somnium: :)
06:18	G0SUB_	somnium: fantastic. works.
06:20	somnium	great
06:29	djpowell	is there any relationship between protocols and 'isa?' ?
06:31	_ato	djpowell: I don't think so
07:02	Licenser	hmm does with-open act as binding?
07:03	AWizzArd	no
07:04	Licenser	darn
07:07	Licenser	hrm hrm
07:12	gerry`	how about google go language? i'm downloading now
07:13	ttmrichter	gerry`: What about it?
07:13	somnium	gerry`: it may be a nice host for clojure once it has better libraries
07:14	gerry`	does it use any vm like java?
07:16	ttmrichter	Well, considering that one version of it is a GCC front end, probably not.
07:16	eevar2	gerry`: once it has better libraries that java? ;)
07:16	eevar2	*than
07:17	gerry`	it will be after twenty years :)
07:18	ttmrichter	20 more years of the squiggly-brace hegemony? I'll just cut my wrists now, thank you very much. :D
07:21	gerry`	you mean parenthesis will rock forever? :)
07:22	Licenser	No one day we'll have compilers that understand plain english with typos!
07:22	Licenser	(+ 2 2)
07:22	clojurebot	4
07:24	esj	silly question: I'm defining a file with a namespace within which I want to use another, compojure. Individually I can do these things successfully, but (ns newspace :use 'compojure) tells me no. What am I doing wrong here ?
07:24	_ato	(ns newspace (:use compojure))
07:24	esj	bah !
07:25	_ato	yeah.. it's nuisance how it's inconsistent like that
07:25	esj	i'd preloaded by brain to think it was working like a map, on account of :reload etc
07:26	esj	thanks _ato
07:28	Drakeson	is there an alias for the special form "." ?
07:30	_ato	Drakeson: as in like @ is (deref)? no it's just .
07:30	Drakeson	yes. thanks.
07:31	Drakeson	I find it a bit easy to miss (well, depends on the fonts, etc., but still)
07:40	Licenser	I've a problem with macros, I want to write a macro that wraps a ssh sessions I came up with https://gist.github.com/0362c56884446dfeb1a8 but I always get 'Can't let qualified name: user/config' when I try it on REPL
07:43	yason	Licenser: use config# instead of config, that'll create an automagic gensym
07:43	somnium	Licenser: also for session
07:44	Licenser	yason: I tried that but then when I have a second macro that is called within in-session it generates a different gensym for session :(
07:44	noidi	the :use, :require etc. options to ns are the worst part of clojure, imo
07:44	noidi	it seems to me that no one gets them right :)
07:44	somnium	ah, then you need to capture like: ~'session
07:50	Licenser	wooh thanks somnium that works
07:51	yason	Licenser: it's a bit unintuitive with regard to macros in many other lisps where symbol capture is the norm and you have to explicitly trick yourself out of it
07:52	Licenser	yason: I don't know other lisps ;) but well macros are kind of odd
07:53	Licenser	hrm macros are silly
07:56	Licenser	hrm hrm all not good
07:57	Licenser	grr ~code evaluates to ((exec "ls")) narf
07:57	somnium	~@code
07:57	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:58	Licenser	I think I really suck :P
07:58	somnium	macros just take some getting used to
07:59	somnium	macroexpand-1 is your friend :)
07:59	Licenser	somnium: yap I used macro expand a lot but knowinf what all the ` ~ @ ' # mean is really confusing or even knowing they exist
07:59	Licenser	hell yea! somnium you're my hero, it freaking works :D
08:00	somnium	try reading the source for 'for ;)
08:02	Licenser	^^
08:02	Licenser	now to understand how the ssh library hands stuff
08:02	Licenser	it's crazy you create a ssh object a session object and a channel objectg o.O
08:18	febeling	coming back to static field access through name... http://clojure.pastebin.com/f32856ff9 anything dodgy with that?
08:26	chouser	,(clojure.lang.Reflector/getStaticField "java.lang.Integer" "MAX_VALUE")
08:26	clojurebot	2147483647
08:27	chouser	febeling: Clojure has to do dynamic access at various points automatically. You can manually use the same Reflector class it does.
08:28	febeling	chouser: thanks, i guess thats what i'm after
08:28	chouser	but yours is a macro, so now I'm confused.
08:29	febeling	mine would not give warnings on reflection use, would it?
08:29	chouser	do you know the name of the class and field at compile time?
08:30	febeling	the class yes, the fields only at runtime
08:30	febeling	or the one field
08:30	chouser	ah, I see
08:31	chouser	using Reflector to do the same thing won't generate a reflection warning either.
08:32	febeling	ok, so then it would be more natural to use that
08:32	chouser	your macro may generate code that runs faster than Reflection/getStaticField because you're taking advantage of the fact that you know the class at compile time.
08:33	chouser	(esp. when 'case' is available)
08:33	febeling	so a slight optimization, but probably not needed for confi/startup of an app, as in my case
08:34	febeling	thanks for the pointer :)
08:34	chouser	yeah, there can be some subtle issues using the reflection api -- probably not a big deal esp. for static fields, but in general it might be safest and easiest just to use Reflector.
08:41	febeling	btw: is reflector usage of reflection then generally exempt from the warnings, or how are the rules?
08:42	chouser	you only get the warning when the compiler itself at compile time generates some code that at runtime will do reflective calls for your java interop forms.
08:43	chouser	so (.foo bar) will get a warning if at compile time it doesn't know what class bar is.
08:47	febeling	and reflector does get around this in cases like the MAX_VALUE one above?
08:48	chouser	right. The compiler sees the class, so that's resolvable. There are only two methods with the name "getStaticField" so as long as it knows whether the first arg is a string or a class, it can generate code that will call that specific method -- no warning.
08:49	chouser	then at runtime the Reflector method gets called which in turn calls into the Java reflection classes, but that's all too late for a warning.
08:50	febeling	ok, i get it
08:53	febeling	so generally there is a lot of reflection going on, unless one puts the type annotation for arguments and meta for return types into place, is that correct?
08:54	febeling	(i mean at runtime now)
08:56	chouser	generally there is only reflection at runtime when you either do it manually or in places that generate warnings if you've got the warning on.
08:56	chouser	so if you turn on the warnings it ought to be pretty obvious where there will be runtime reflection
08:57	chouser	in practice I find that most of the time a few well-placed type hints can remove all runtime reflection from anywhere that's at all performance critical.
08:57	febeling	ok
08:59	Licenser	nice
09:00	Licenser	https://gist.github.com/c9ef95778338d3c7da5a <- it's working :D
09:12	febeling	chouser: if that wasn't my conviction, i wouldn't use clojure actually :)
09:13	chouser	febeling: ah, not in favor of static typing then? :-)
09:13	febeling	nope :)
09:16	febeling	still like to have the option where it matters
09:17	chouser	I'm still ambivalent, but I'm happy I'm never forced to specify types and rarely need to for improved performance.
09:20	febeling	so much more to be gained from the time-memory tradeoff, in many cases
09:21	Chousuke	and no-one knows what the future will bring.
09:24	Chousuke	I suppose the ideal system would be something with which you can just assert facts about any piece of code and the compiler would use those assertions as a base for optimisations...
09:25	Chousuke	but it's easy to talk about. I have no idea how to actually implement anything like that, or what ramifications it would have on dynamicity
09:25	chouser	and for error checking at compile time.
09:25	chouser	I think that's actually what I want, but yes I can't really imagine how it would work.
09:25	chouser	I'm hopeful something similar is in rhickey's head and we'll all get to use it some day. :-)
09:26	chouser	I'm under the vague impression that's part of the point of the datalog work, but I don't understand how it all relates.
09:27	somnium	I wonder if some day a compiler will be written better than any human programmer, and all 'programming' languages will look like cucumber
09:27	rhickey	chouser: imagine once you have cinc, you run analyze, getting Clojure data structures, which you can stick into Datalog and query for anything that matters to you
09:27	febeling	that sounds interesting, i'll have to look into datalog
09:27	chouser	rhickey: ah!!!!
09:29	chouser	with access to any bits of assertion or requests for checking that I might happen to tuck away in form metadata here or there.
09:31	rhickey	chouser: right, basically it becomes completely extensible from the get-go
09:31	rhickey	and people can do what they consider important, rather than what I do
09:33	chouser	with appropriate libraries of "normal" things available to start with and then extend as needed
09:34	Chousuke	clojure.contrib.optimizations :P
09:35	rhickey	Chousuke: not really about optimizations
09:46	ambient	btw rich's JVM summit 2009 keynote is up http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
10:23	rhickey	should I put this on the wiki?
10:23	rhickey	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/330c230e8dc857a9
10:24	rhickey	ended up being a bit of a manifesto
10:27	patrkris	rhickey: i can't see why you shouldn't
10:28	djpowell	I currently have a java abstract class holding some data fields, and with accessors that provide calculated values, and a fixed number of subclasses that add extra fields and extra derrived accessors. I was wondering how I could move that to protocols and datatypes. Is there any replacement for implementation inheritance so that the common data and operations are available in all of the sub-types.
10:29	Chousuke	you can put the implementation in a map
10:29	Chousuke	and then give that map to anyone who might want to use it as a basis for their implementation of the protocol.
10:32	ambient	so do a lot of other people who like oop
10:33	djpowell	Chousuke: ah, cool - that would work for the operations. I suppose there isn't an equivalent for the fields in deftype
10:33	rhickey	djpowell: not the fields, right
10:35	djpowell	rhickey: protocols now dispatch to subclasses - is there anything that they could do with derive?
10:37	rhickey	djpowell: If it were up to me, they wouldn't. This is strictly there for interop. Protocols do not use the derive/hierarchy sytem
10:37	rhickey	system
10:38	rhickey	for your fields thing, a mixin could specify it needs a certain set of fields and access them in its implementation fns
10:39	rhickey	not the same as inheriting fields, but might be enough
10:42	djpowell	rhickey: sorry, I don't understand what you mean by mixin?
10:43	rhickey	djpowell: as Chousuke mentioned - mixins are fn maps you can reuse in extend calls
10:44	rhickey	so if someone provided such a map, with the condition that - "this mixin presumes fields :mixin-foo and "mixin-bar" the deftype implementor could include those fields
10:45	djpowell	rhickey: ok - i'll take a look at how that would work out
10:45	rhickey	this has the same (closed) nature as derivation, as only the type author can add fields, but if moving from abstract superclass, that was the case there too
10:51	djpowell	tbh - I don't think I need the fields inheritted; the type will correspond to some database row, so I won't need to model the shared fields, they'll just be there
10:51	rhickey	sweet
11:06	chouser	rhickey: so, my finger trees are slower now than they were.
11:06	chouser	adding back some gen-interfaces to put the protocols :on could buy back some of that performance, right?
11:08	rhickey	chouser: right, should be identical with :on
11:08	chouser	did you say there as a possibility of eventually generating interfaces from defprotocol?
11:08	rhickey	I'm hoping to play with call-site caches for protocols to make that unnecessary
11:08	chouser	oh, ok.
11:09	rhickey	but I don't know that they will match until I do so
11:09	chouser	ok
11:14	djpowell	two protocols defined in the same namespace mustn't use the same names for methods?
11:14	chouser	right
11:15	djpowell	'extenders' is cool
11:17	Kjellski	~rhicker
11:17	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
11:17	Kjellski	~rhickey
11:17	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:18	Kjellski	rhickey : Are your clojure presentations made with LaTeX?
11:29	rhickey	Kjellski: no, Keynote + OmniGraffle
11:30	Kjellski	rhickey: Okay, that´s a pitty... I´m pretty frustrated with latex listings right now...
11:30	rhickey	chouser: so I've got that patch in here, but really dislike the warning (vs, say, an error)
11:31	Kjellski	rhickey : tried really hard to build up a latex listing language for highlighting but I´ve lost hours in documentation and finally give it up...
11:33	chouser	rhickey: really!? it seems like there are several dynamic situations where an error would be inappropriate.
11:34	bradford	,(into (sorted-map) {:b 2 :a 1})
11:34	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
11:34	bradford	now how do i do something like this: (into (sorted-map-by #(compare (second %1) (second %2))) {:b 2 :a 1})
11:34	rhickey	the warning basically says - you've (already) messed up your environment
11:34	bradford	produce a sorted map from an unsorted map?
11:34	chouser	rename the protocol, reload the file, you would expect to get a big ol' list of warnings but it would be a shame to have to restart the JVM to do it.
11:35	rhickey	why would you have to restart the JVM?
11:36	chouser	if you got an error when trying to rename your protocol, what else would you do?
11:36	rhickey	oh, well we need a rename/remove protocol and a bunch of other things still
11:36	chouser	I guess you could manually unmap all your protocol-generated methods.
11:36	chouser	oh, ok.
11:37	chouser	so you want an error before anything's been changed, forcing some kind of manual un-def'ing first?
11:38	rhickey	I've just been waiting to se what they might be, certainly nuke an entire protocol, and remove an impl (unextend, retract?)
11:38	rhickey	chouser: right, like:
11:38	rhickey	,(def String 42)
11:38	bradford	so what would be the easiest way to produce a sorted map from an unsorted map given a cparator?
11:38	clojurebot	DENIED
11:39	rhickey	argh
11:39	chouser	heh
11:39	chouser	ok, I can print DENIED
11:39	rhickey	heh
11:39	rhickey	I've got your patch in, so I'll change it to a throw here
11:40	chouser	probably need to move the assert to before alter-meta! too
11:41	rhickey	the metadata flow has to be better overall, I'd like to preserve meta through to fn var
11:41	Kjellski	bradford : What you´ve written is not working?
11:41	Kjellski	,(doc sorted-map-by)
11:41	cemerick	it seems like this is a specific case of the non-composability of the various options for defining vars (public or not, defonce or not, etc)
11:41	clojurebot	"([comparator & keyvals]); keyval => key val Returns a new sorted map with supplied mappings, using the supplied comparator."
11:42	cemerick	I mean, totally aside from the impl. details in the background.
11:42	chouser	bradford: are you trying to sort by the value of the key/val pairs? You can't really do that without putting the value in the key as well.
11:42	rhickey	cemerick: which, defprotocol? The names there flow through a lot of stuff, so just a quality of implementation thing
11:43	rhickey	bradford: or you want a sorted set of the paris
11:43	rhickey	pairs
11:45	cemerick	rhickey: yeah. It seems like defprotocol could just have the semantics of defonce by default, and have some option to push off existing vars in the ns. Anyway, my point was these sorts of questions are all too common in conjunction with new def* forms. It'd be nice if there were a common, composable mechanism for specifying semantics of such operations.
11:46	cemerick	rather than a proliferation of def, un-def, tweak-def*, etc.
11:47	rhickey	cemerick: when people write those specific things they are just trying to get out of using the composable thing
11:47	rhickey	metadata maps
11:48	cemerick	Yeah. That's frustrating to me :-)
11:48	patrkris	is it considered more idiomatic to use doseq than dorun?
11:48	drewr	,Keyword
11:48	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: Keyword in this context
11:49	drewr	,clojure.lang.Keyword
11:49	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Keyword
11:49	drewr	shouldn't that Keyword import automatically?
11:52	bradford	getting sorted pairs is no problem
11:53	bradford	,(sort #(compare (second %1) (second %2)) {:b 1 :a 2})
11:53	clojurebot	([:b 1] [:a 2])
11:53	bradford	the prblem is you can't follwo that with into {} of you lose sorted order gaurentee
11:53	bradford	so you avhe to use sorted-map-by in order to inejct your own comparator if you want to compare values
11:54	bradford	but that doesn't play nicely with the (into foo bar) interface
11:55	bradford	so that's the issue...arbitrarty orders of the kv pairs in a map is no pboem, its getting the pairs back into a map in sorted order that seems tricker than it needs to be
12:01	rhickey	bradford: a sorted map means sorted keys, not sorted values or pairs
12:01	technomancy	I noticed in the persistent hash map code there's a "nullValue" setting that you can use to override what's returned for gets for which that key is not present... is that exposed in Clojure at all?
12:01	rhickey	getting map-like performance and arbitrary sorting of values is wanting 2 different things at once
12:08	Chousuke	technomancy: (get themap key notfound)?
12:09	Chousuke	,({:a 1} :b :FAIL)
12:09	clojurebot	:FAIL
12:15	bradford	rhickey: yea, you are right. this is actually just a special case where i am doing a little hack for visualizing some results at the repl. it is a map of features in the flight data to the values of how infomative each feature is about delays.
12:16	bradford	Chousuke: i don't like that overriding return behavior because it messes with another idea i had about map of fns.
12:17	chouser	drewr: java.lang.* is imported automatically, but not clojure.lang.*
12:17	bradford	but its convienient :-) 6 of one, half dozen of the other
12:18	technomancy	Chousuke: yeah, but I'm using this map in a call to update-in, so I'd like the nullValue to be attached to the map
12:19	Chousuke	bradford: sometimes, a nil is a valid value and you NEED some other "not-found" value :/
12:28	arohner	wow, clojure really alters your thinking. I'm reading some Java source today, and I was confused about how this java fn was returning values. Turns out, it was using mutable state, and it took me a minute to figure that out!
12:28	the-kenny	Is there something like filter, that lists the result of the predicate and returns a list of them instead of the original input-values?
12:29	arohner	the-kenny: map?
12:29	the-kenny	arohner: Yeah, but I want to filter for (pred x) = nil
12:30	the-kenny	...maybe a (filter (comp not nil?) (filter pred lst)) will do it.
12:31	irumiha	hi everyone... I have a silly question... (def (symbol "s") "somevalue") throws "First argument to def must be a Symbol"... what am I doing wrong?
12:32	irumiha	i thought thiws would be equivalent to (def s "somevalue")
12:32	arohner	irumiha: def is a special form. it doesn't evaluate the first argument
12:32	irumiha	ah, ok... didn't know that
12:34	arohner	you can write a macro that will do that, if you need to
12:34	arohner	though usually that isn't done
12:34	arohner	what are you trying to do?
12:35	chouser	the-kenny: (remove nil? (map func coll))
12:35	Chousuke	it's pretty easy, actually... (defmacro defstring [string & rest] `(def ~(symbol string) ~@rest)) ... but not very useful :P
12:35	irumiha	i am writing a macro that should up in (defn something...) with something being a String
12:35	the-kenny	chouser: Ah, thats more beautiful than my version. Thanks
12:39	irumiha	Chousuke: thanks, that pushed me in the right direction, now I'm off to create more problems :)
12:42	drewr	chouser: weird, I could have sworn I'd used bare clojure.lang classes before
13:45	Kjellski	,(doc proxy)
13:45	clojurebot	"([class-and-interfaces args & fs]); class-and-interfaces - a vector of class names args - a (possibly empty) vector of arguments to the superclass constructor. f => (name [params] body) or (name ([params] body) ([params+] body) ...) Expands to code which creates a instance of a proxy class that implements the named class/interface(s) by calling the supplied fns. A single class, if provided, must be first. If not provid
13:47	IsaacL	(doc fmap)
13:47	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap;[[f s]]; Applies function f to each item in the data structure s and returns a structure of the same kind."
13:47	IsaacL	(doc map)
13:47	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
13:48	stacktracer	is there a spelled-out equivalent of ` (backtick)?
13:48	stacktracer	the way "quote" is equivalent to '
13:58	chouser	stacktracer: no
13:58	chouser	stacktracer: there may be eventually
14:00	Kjellski	How can I make a Javaish cast in clojure?
14:00	chouser	Kjellski: mostly you don't need to
14:01	Kjellski	Actually I don´t know wethere I need that cast or not... but it seems like: FromHeader from = (FromHeader) req.getHeader("From");
14:01	chouser	well, you don't need to declare locals, so for that line all you need is (let [from (.getHeader req "From")] ...)
14:02	chouser	declare the types of locals, I mean.
14:02	tomoj	why does java need that cast, I wonder?
14:02	tomoj	clearly we want a FromHeader, we already said so at the beginning of the line
14:03	stacktracer	chouser: okay, thanks
14:03	Kjellski	chouser : That´s what I did, just thought that calling methods on that uncasted thing would be dangerous...
14:04	chouser	Kjellski: nope, not dangerous at all. You may want to type hint for speed, but that's strictly for performance not required at all.
14:04	Kjellski	chouser : Okay, thanks again... =)
14:07	Kjellski	Can I nest a function with an argument in the (.. macro ? Like a.b().c(foo).g; ?
14:07	chouser	yeah, but I recommend -> instead
14:07	chouser	(-> a .b (.c foo) .g)
14:08	Kjellski	chouser: pressingthethankschouserbutton
14:13	ordnungswidrig	re
14:18	chouser	ordnungswidrig: good luck. but you won't need it. ruby->clojure is like going home.
14:23	weissj	is there a simpler way to predicate if an item is in a list besides (some (= item) list)
14:24	chouser	(some #{item} list)
14:24	Bjering	Hi, I just watched Rick Hickeys presentation "Are we there yet?" on infoq, I was intrigued but there are so many things I don't understand is this an ok place to ask about that?
14:24	weissj	chouser: i was thinking there'd be a contains? pred, but i guess not?
14:24	weissj	just for maps?
14:24	chouser	weissj: maps and sets.
14:25	weissj	chouser: ah ok i can use a set in this case. thx
14:26	cemerick	ooh, something just clicked for me on protocols
14:27	ambient	hmm, how did i check channel max users?
14:27	cemerick	~max
14:27	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:27	ambient	~maxusers
14:27	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:27	cemerick	,max
14:27	clojurebot	#<core$max__4506 clojure.core$max__4506@1c39cb2>
14:27	hiredman	clojurebot's max users is kind of broken atm
14:27	cemerick	ah-ha
14:27	hiredman	clojurebot: max users?
14:27	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:27	ambient	it just peaked over 200
14:27	chouser	weissj: yeah, unless sets fail you in some way (you need to keep things in a particular order, for example) they're best for doing contains checks.
14:27	cemerick	that's pretty hefty for a language-focussed channel
14:28	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
14:28	clojurebot	I know 474 things
14:29	chouser	weissj: if you're really sure you want to do a linear seach across a list you can use the .contains method.
14:29	chouser	(.contains '[a b c d] 'c)
14:29	chouser	,(.contains '[a b c d] 'c)
14:29	clojurebot	true
14:29	chouser	cemerick: just watch the google go video, it explains most of what you need to know about protocols.
14:29	chouser	:-)
14:30	cemerick	lol
14:30	cemerick	chouser: you're really steamed about it, eh?
14:30	chouser	no, actually, that part amuses me quite a bit
14:30	chouser	clearly an idea whose time has come
14:30	chouser	the rest of it just makes me tired
14:31	jeremy_____	If I run (partition 5 (range 1 8)), I get ((1 2 3 4 5)). Is there an easy way to instead get ((1 2 3 4 5) (6 7))? I've looked at take, but I thought there might be an easier way to do this.
14:31	cemerick	I've not watched the video. I don't imagine I'm going to bother. Things are getting busier, amazingly enough.
14:31	hiredman	~max people
14:31	clojurebot	max people is 202
14:31	chouser	cemerick: yeah, I was kidding. don't watch the video.
14:32	chouser	jeremy_____: there's partition-all in contrib
14:32	hiredman	maybe the max people thing isn't broken
14:32	jeremy_____	chouser: ah thanks!
14:33	chouser	jeremy_____: depending on what exactly you're trying to do, you might also look at split-at
14:34	stuarthalloway	okay if I create a branch on the official clojure-contrib to experiment with converting my contribs to deftype?
14:34	stuarthalloway	or should I hide out in my own corner of github
14:37	chouser	stuarthalloway: if the branch is for 'new' in general rather than your contribs in particular, then we can all share it
14:37	stuarthalloway	that was my thought
14:37	stuarthalloway	I have one gen-class to convert to deftype
14:37	stuarthalloway	but others probably will as well
14:44	piccolino	stuarthalloway: in an old clojure list post you mention that you were working on CSV parser. Did anything ever become of that?
14:45	stuarthalloway	piccolino: not much. got busy and used SuperCSV instead
14:46	hiredman	(yay code re-use)
14:46	piccolino	Ah, OK.
14:46	piccolino	I guess I should have done that instead of writing my own.
15:15	lisppaste8	stuartsierra pasted "Simple deftype/defprotocol example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90329
15:18	hiredman	stuartsierra: nice
15:19	chouser	stuarthalloway: yeah, that's solid, thanks.
15:20	stuarthalloway	chouser: huh? ...
15:20	chouser	stuarthalloway: sorry, wrong stuart
15:20	stuarthalloway	chouser: I mean, yeah, thanks, I am the coolest Stuart around...
15:20	chouser	stuartsierra: that's solid, thanks.
15:20	chouser	:-)
15:21	stuartsierra	chouser: thx
15:21	stuartsierra	It doesn't support mixing reals & complex's, not sure how that should work.
15:22	weissj	given a function that takes no args, how do i simply call it?
15:22	weissj	apply doesn't work here, afaict
15:22	stuartsierra	weissj: (foo)
15:22	chouser	to make it fit protocols you'd have to pull something like the kind of crazyness that is in the clojure.lang.Numbers
15:22	technomancy	so I posted to the mailing list a while back about having run-tests return true/false depending on whether all the tests passed or not.
15:22	weissj	so if i had a list of functions, i can do (map #(%) list) ?
15:22	technomancy	it's a one-line change and would really help w/ build scripts etc.
15:22	technomancy	thoughts?
15:23	stuarthalloway	technomancy: agreed
15:23	stuartsierra	technomancy: There's a patch is marked ready to test on assembla.
15:23	stuarthalloway	though I am still hoping to just use circumspec
15:23	technomancy	stuartsierra: awesome; I somehow missed the followup on that.
15:23	stuarthalloway	technomancy: you in SF Bay area next week?
15:23	cemerick	there's already a map containing an :errors slot you can check, no?
15:24	technomancy	stuarthalloway: yeah, I'll be at rubyconf. was hoping to say hi there.
15:24	stuartsierra	cemerick: run-tests doesn't return anything by default
15:24	stuartsierra	The patch changes that, and adds a "successful?" predicate.
15:24	stuarthalloway	technomancy: please do. Also I am running the 5k if that is your kind of thing.
15:24	technomancy	stuarthalloway: I wish. =)
15:25	technomancy	stuarthalloway: I've been building a tool around lancet that I'd like your feedback on: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
15:25	cemerick	stuartsierra: ah, I had written my own run-tests long ago that does merge-with + across the results of test-ns.
15:25	stuartsierra	weissj: yes
15:26	weissj	stuartsierra: thx
15:26	stuartsierra	cemerick: that's what run-tests does internally, it just doesn't return the result, patch fixes that.
15:26	stuarthalloway	technomancy: did you see my email question about http client?
15:27	cemerick	once test-is gets ripped out, I'll make myself drop all of my old testing code :-P
15:27	stuarthalloway	technomancy: feedback #1 on leiningen: no need to compare with lancet. It is clearly just a spike
15:27	technomancy	stuarthalloway: yeah, I'm a bit backlogged on email. I think your change looks solid.
15:28	technomancy	err, your idea for the change
15:28	stuarthalloway	technomancy: conjure is using lancet -- you should reach out to him as a key alpha user of leiningen instead
15:28	technomancy	ah, good idea.
15:29	technomancy	I hear enough people ask about lancet to make me think that it's not clear to everyone that it's a spike even if it's clear to you and me. =)
15:30	technomancy	ooh; this test patch would allow clojure-test-mode to be come simpler too; sweet.
15:31	stuarthalloway	technomancy: you should write a blog post about how lancet sucks, pillory me personally, recommend leiningen
15:31	chouser	what's a spike?
15:31	technomancy	stuarthalloway: it's the guaranteed way to get readership!
15:31	stuartsierra	I guess truly general arithmetic would have to use multimethods anyway. (defmethod add [:Real :Complex] ...)
15:31	technomancy	I would need to put ads on my site first though.
15:31	stuarthalloway	chouser: http://www.think-box.co.uk/blog/2006/01/spike.html
15:32	chouser	oh, man. That's all I ever write!
15:32	stuarthalloway	at Relevance we have abused the word spike to include any story card that doesn't deliver working code: experiments, estimation, documentation, what have you
15:32	chouser	except for my day-jobs I suppose.
15:33	stuartsierra	In other words, 99% of what all programmers produce.
15:33	stuarthalloway	chouser: find a free six weeks and come write some spikes here!
15:33	chouser	stuarthalloway: ask me again when the kids are too old to notice I'm gone.
15:34	dakrone	is there a way to do a reduce with more than 2 values at once? I want to do what's I'm describing here: http://pastie.org/697808
15:34	weissj	i thought lancet was pretty useful - couldn't find any other way to use any from clojure like that
15:34	cemerick	"why do you look so sad, little one?" "I'm a clojure-orphan."
15:34	weissj	s/any/ant
15:35	cemerick	sorry, it was funny in my head
15:35	stuarthalloway	weissj: useful, but not fully thought out
15:35	technomancy	weissj: it's useful as a library, but not as a build tool... check out leiningen for that. =)
15:35	chouser	hehe
15:35	weissj	technomancy: no i just wanted the equivalent of AntBuilder in groovy
15:35	weissj	stuarthalloway: unfortunately it is the only alternative i'm aware of :)
15:37	cemerick	I'm worried I might have to break down and give in to the maven hordes for dep. mgmt.
15:37	stuartsierra	dakrone: I think you need to break down and use a loop/recur
15:37	rhickey	hrm, protocols are not golang interfaces...
15:38	chouser	rhickey: hehe
15:38	dakrone	stuartsierra: okay, I'll try that
15:38	stuarthalloway	weissj: another alternative: http://twitter.com/stuarthalloway/status/5690154628
15:38	technomancy	cemerick: the maven-ant-tasks jar lets you add just the deps part of maven to a project without all the wacky stuff. (or you could use leiningen.)
15:38	chouser	it's taken a while, but I'm finally learning some ways to tweak rhickey.
15:38	stuartsierra	Maven is easy. Just do everything "The Maven Way." :)
15:38	technomancy	stuarthalloway: uh oh, I better get going whip this thing into shape!
15:38	cemerick	chouser: what's great is that the round trip on that one was at least ~an hour :-D
15:39	fogus_	chouser: His irrational fear of clowns?
15:39	weissj	stuarthalloway: ok, i meant to say at the time i needed lancet there was no alternative :)
15:39	cemerick	technomancy: well, then you just have ivy, essentially.
15:39	cemerick	i.e. insofar as ivy and maven use the same repos
15:40	stuarthalloway	keeping up with other stuart, here is an example converting an existing gen-class to use deftype: http://bit.ly/1iuRAe. Trivial to do, which is good.
15:41	technomancy	cemerick: I found maven-ant-tasks to be easier to work with from an API level, but I guess that might not matter to you
15:41	wooby	has anyone played with using simple build tool with clj?
15:42	rhickey	stuart vs stuart - love it!
15:42	cemerick	technomancy: yeah, I've only cared about the ant targets
15:43	chouser	stuarthalloway: you couldn't use proxy because you needed a named class?
15:44	arohner	lisppaste8: url
15:44	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
15:44	lisppaste8	arohner pasted "invalid args?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90338
15:44	arohner	is that the error you get when you call a java fn with the wrong arguments?
15:47	hiredman	arohner: there are only clojure fns
15:47	arohner	fine. java method
15:47	hiredman	,(.foo nil)
15:47	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
15:48	arohner	I understand how normally NPEs can be generated. I'm surprised at the <init> and Unknown Source
15:49	chouser	arohner: I doubt that's the whole of the backtrace
15:49	hiredman	<init> is maybe a static block?
15:49	lisppaste8	arohner annotated #90338 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90338#1
15:49	chouser	I think <init> is the name given to instance constructors internally
15:49	stuarthalloway	chouser: not sure if it has to be named or not -- probably
15:50	michaeljaaka	hi
15:50	michaeljaaka	can anybody give me an usage of function clojure.set/select ?
15:51	michaeljaaka	is there also any simple way to call select method without clojure.set namespace?
15:51	michaeljaaka	is there any import with :as x or something like this?
15:51	michaeljaaka	I'm trying to call (clojure.set/select #(= 2 %1) [ 1 2 3 4] )
15:51	michaeljaaka	but without success
15:52	hiredman	…
15:52	michaeljaaka	what is pred ?
15:52	michaeljaaka	when I looked into set.clj
15:52	chouser	michaeljaaka: you probably just want 'filter' for that
15:52	michaeljaaka	I can see if (pred x )
15:52	chouser	,(filter #(= 2 %1) [1 2 3 4])
15:52	clojurebot	(2)
15:52	michaeljaaka	no I'm just trying to figure out how to call select
15:52	hiredman	michaeljaaka: and what exception did you get?
15:53	stuarthalloway	(select #(< (.length %) 2) #{"a" "quick" "example"})
15:53	michaeljaaka	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentSet (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)>
15:53	hiredman	michaeljaaka: what does that suggest about the input to select?
15:53	michaeljaaka	that arguemnt in function is not a seq
15:54	chouser	(use '[clojure.set :only [select]])
15:54	stuarthalloway	almost: argument is a seq, but it not a set
15:54	chouser	(select :good #{{:name "C++"} {:name "Clojure" :good true}})
15:54	stuarthalloway	(swap! snark inc)
15:55	michaeljaaka	ok
15:55	hiredman	stuarthalloway: well, it's not a seq
15:55	michaeljaaka	i see now
15:55	michaeljaaka	thanks
15:55	hiredman	clojure.set
15:56	michaeljaaka	thanks!
15:56	dakrone	I can't seem to wrap my head around doing this functionally, I keep wanted to have some kind of state to keep track of things, http://pastebin.com/d5b7e6b51 can anyone help me understand the functional way to do it?
15:57	tomoj	recursion
15:57	dakrone	I understand recursion, but recursion with what is what I can't make the mental leap to yet
15:57	hiredman	you can use reduce to create map of n => instance count of n
15:59	chouser	dakrone: I don't understand yet quite what you're trying to do. Why does the last example in the comment add two numbers the first time, but 3 the rest?
15:59	tomoj	are you trying to chop chunks off the list, run each of those chunks through a function, and then combine the results?
15:59	dakrone	chouser: it's starting from the last number in the sequence, averaging backwards with 3 numbers, when it gets to the front there's only 2 numbers left, so it divides by 2
16:00	dakrone	so giving more weight to numbers farther left in the list
16:00	dakrone	tomoj: yea, that's basically it
16:01	tomoj	well, I don't really understand your pastie at all
16:01	dakrone	the (w-avg ...) function does what I want, if I wanted it segmented by 2 each time
16:01	tomoj	but you can do like (recur (take 3 seq) (drop 3 seq) <maybe an accumulator here>) to do what I described
16:01	dakrone	but if I want to segment by 3 each time, it doesn't do it
16:01	tomoj	er, except without the first parameter
16:02	tomoj	just (recur (drop 3 seq) (<use (take 3 seq) and fold the result into the accumulator here>))
16:03	dakrone	tomoj: okay, I'll try that, thanks
16:03	tomoj	I don't actually know if that will help you.. don't understand weighted averages
16:03	dakrone	I think it will help me understand how to do what I'm trying to do more
16:04	chouser	I think partition and reduce will suffice
16:05	tomoj	yeah better to use the helpers than to manually recur if you can avoid it
16:06	dakrone	chouser: I'm not sure how to partition and carry through the average to be used for averaging again
16:06	stuarthalloway	technomancy: does leiningen help me if I am on non-released versions of stuff (e.g. named git commits)?
16:06	dakrone	so for [1 2 3 4 5] it'd have to partition to (1 2 (avg 3 4 5)) for me, how can I get partition to do that?
16:07	chouser	dakrone: what's the correct answer to your example?
16:07	dakrone	the [1 2 3 4 5]?
16:08	stuarthalloway	are the higher weights at the beginning?
16:08	dakrone	7/3
16:08	dakrone	so it does 3 + 4 + 5 = 12, 12/3 = 4
16:08	dakrone	then 1 + 2 + 4 = 7, 7/3
16:09	chouser	hm... I think I'm close, but I must have a bug.
16:09	dakrone	expanded it's (1 + 2 + ((3 + 4 + 5) / 3)) / 3
16:19	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "for dakrone" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90343
16:19	chouser	a bit messy, I'm sure there's a cleaner way.
16:20	maravillas	ah, partition-all
16:21	chouser	oh, sorry, left out the 'use' bit
16:21	chouser	I hate it when people do that.
16:21	chouser	(use '[clojure.contrib.seq-utils :only (partition-all)])
16:23	chouser	the edge cases make it ugly -- first group doesn't takes size+1 from the list instead of size and last group may need a non-size divide. :-/
16:25	dakrone	chouser: I'll read and learn, thank you for the help :)
16:27	technomancy	stuarthalloway: I thought about that. I implemented some of that in a spike, but I think the better solution is to make it easier for library developers to publish jars to a repo
16:28	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #90343 "maybe cleaner" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90343#1
16:30	lisppaste8	maravillas annotated #90343 "my contribution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90343#2
16:31	maravillas	although i guess there's a better method than (concat [%1] %2)
16:31	maravillas	like cons :)
16:33	maravillas	oops, didn't use n
16:33	lisppaste8	maravillas annotated #90343 "size fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90343#3
16:34	stuarthalloway	technomancy: makes sense
16:34	chouser	maravillas: that works for you?
16:35	maravillas	seemed to
16:35	maravillas	did i miss something?
16:35	chouser	not sure, I'm just getting an exception
16:36	maravillas	oh, maybe the args? mine are reversed relative to yours
16:36	chouser	oh, yep, just found that.
16:37	chouser	I like yours better (if you were to use cons instead of concat anyway :-)
16:37	maravillas	:)
16:38	dakrone	maravillas: very readable, thank you much!
16:38	maravillas	welcome
16:39	maravillas	it's funny how often i need something fairly basic, and then find it in contrib
16:39	maravillas	like partition-all
16:40	technomancy	stuarthalloway: I may revisit it if the jar repo thing doesn't take off.
16:41	chouser	maravillas: for the most part I like our process. we've been debating over the right way to get something like partition-all into core, but haven't settled on anything yet.
16:41	chouser	until we do, we've got contrib. :-
16:41	chouser	:-)
16:41	technomancy	I wonder if there would be room for clojure.io in a future release.
16:42	stuartsierra	I've wondered the same.
16:42	arohner	duck-streams is pretty great
16:42	stuartsierra	I've also wondered if clojure-contrib should be packaged into each Clojure release.
16:42	technomancy	I use duck-streams in probably 1 out of every 5 namespaces, and java-utils/file all over the place.
16:43	chouser	I use seq-utils, repl-utils, and str-utils2 quite a bit
16:43	technomancy	(only a slight exaggeration)
16:43	maravillas	yeah, i can understand that. i was mostly musing that i start to put together something just before i think to check contrib.
16:43	hiredman	I should use contrib, I mean, I have it sitting there, compojure requires it, so it's like getting it for free
16:44	lisppaste8	stuarthalloway pasted "separate reduce/weight" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90345
16:45	stuarthalloway	maravillas: loved yours, just posted a slight mod
16:46	fradiavalo	xb
16:46	the-kenny	It is possible to have two repls connected to the same clojure instance in emacs?
16:46	the-kenny	*Is it
16:46	arohner	the-kenny: yes, using swank
16:47	the-kenny	arohner: Can you tell me how?
16:47	maravillas	ah yes, nice
16:47	arohner	download swank-clojure
16:48	arohner	start it up in your process
16:48	arohner	oh wait, I'm answering a slightly different question
16:48	arohner	you can make a clojure process than can serve multiple repls
16:48	arohner	I don't know about one emacs process with multiple swank connections
16:49	arohner	I'd be surprised if it's not possible, but I don't know how to do that
16:49	the-kenny	arohner: I have a running swank-clojure setup. I just want to create two repls pointing to the same clojure instance :)
16:50	arohner	oh, just try M-x slime-connect
16:50	arohner	when it asks if you want to close the other connection, say no
16:51	the-kenny	hm.. what's the default port?
16:51	arohner	4005
16:51	the-kenny	4005 isn't working
16:51	the-kenny	"make process client failed"
16:51	the-kenny	ew "make client process failed"
16:52	arohner	I can tell you I manually start swank-server in my process, so I can access it all the time
16:52	arohner	that might be different than how clojure-mode does things
16:53	drewr	has anyone experimented with using contrib as a submodule in clojure core in order to keep versions in sync?
16:53	the-kenny	Looks like clojure uses a local file
16:54	stuartsierra	drewr: yes, I did for a while
16:54	drewr	stuartsierra: no good?
16:55	stuartsierra	It worked, but I decided it was easier to use Maven snapshots.
16:55	drewr	k
16:56	stuartsierra	Most libs in contrib are not tightly coupled to core, anyway.
16:57	arohner	ugh. Anyone have any good articles on implementing a stateful java API in clojure?
16:57	stuarthalloway	stateful how?
16:57	arohner	instance.loadData(data); instance.processData();
16:58	stuarthalloway	looks done already, except for refactoring away instance :-)
16:59	stuarthalloway	are you implementing existing Java interfaces?
16:59	arohner	yes
16:59	hiredman	google likes to use "Builders" where all the methods return this
16:59	arohner	and I think I might have to extend a concrete superclass
16:59	stuarthalloway	gen-class is pretty straightforward
17:00	hiredman	did defclass vanish into thin air?
17:00	stuarthalloway	simple genclass example: http://github.com/stuarthalloway/programming-clojure/blob/master/examples/tasklist.clj
17:00	arohner	yeah, it looks fine. I'm mainly interested advice about style
17:00	chouser	hiredman: yes
17:00	hiredman	neat
17:00	chouser	hiredman: deftype ate it
17:01	stuarthalloway	arohner: keep all state (if you need any) in a single object
17:01	stuarthalloway	other than that pretty trivial
17:01	arohner	stuarthalloway: thanks
17:01	hiredman	loadData should obviously return a FutureTask which processes the Data when you call .get
17:02	hiredman	but if you are implementing some api, :(
17:02	arohner	hiredman: yeah :-(
17:02	arohner	I'm doing some machine learning stuff. I have my own implementation already working, and in good clojure style
17:03	arohner	now I'm trying to shoehorn my classifier into WEKA
17:03	arohner	very Java-y API
17:03	arohner	the contrast is stark
17:03	hiredman	might be a good place to explore the new types and protocols stuff
17:03	chouser	can I use (are ... (thrown? ...)) somehow?
17:04	arohner	can protocols implement an interface?
17:05	chouser	arohner: yes! using :on
17:05	arohner	oh, nice
17:05	chouser	and it makes them run faster too
17:06	arohner	oh, you can extend a class too!
17:06	hiredman	I'm not clear on how that works, so feel free to lisppaste some examples
17:08	stuartsierra	chouser: (are ... ) expands to (do (is ...) (is ...)) so it should work
17:10	stuartsierra	arohner: in my experience, WEKA is easy to understand but very procedural, not to mention inefficient
17:16	stuarthalloway	stuartsierra: while on the subject of are--I find myself wanting each expansion to include a description
17:17	stuarthalloway	i.e. (are [desc a b c...] (something that reports desc on failure))
17:26	froog	silly question, how do I check the length of a list?
17:27	tomoj	,(count '(1 2 3))
17:27	clojurebot	3
17:28	froog	tomoj: thanks
17:28	froog	I had used .length until now, but that doesn't work on lists
17:29	tomoj	if you ask counted? on something it will tell you whether count will quickly give you the length
17:29	tomoj	,(counted? '(1 2 3))
17:29	clojurebot	true
17:29	froog	that's clever
17:29	tomoj	,(counted? (range 100))
17:29	clojurebot	false
17:30	tomoj	you can still count ranges but it won't be very fast
17:31	tomoj	,(time (count (range 100000)))
17:31	clojurebot	100000
17:31	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 357.762 msecs"
17:31	tomoj	,(time (count (range 1000000)))
17:31	clojurebot	1000000
17:31	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 362.483 msecs"
17:31	tomoj	wat?
17:31	tomoj	how'd clojurebot do that so fast?
17:32	_mst	chunked seqs? (random guess)
17:32	tomoj	I have chunked seqs I believe..
17:32	tomoj	for me it takes nearly 10 times longer to count (range 1000000) as it does (range 100000)
17:32	Chousuke	maybe it was a jvm fluke
17:32	_ato	it could be a JIT effect
17:33	hiredman	~clojurebot
17:33	clojurebot	clojurebot is like life: you make trade-offs
17:33	_ato	,(time (count (range 100000)))
17:33	clojurebot	100000
17:33	hiredman	~clojurebot
17:33	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 31.894 msecs"
17:33	clojurebot	clojurebot is amazing
17:33	Chousuke	:D
17:33	_ato	haha
17:33	tomoj	oh, I see
17:33	tomoj	so yeah, linear
17:33	hiredman	there is another one, but I always feel bad spamming the channel trying to get clojurebot to say want I want
17:34	_mst	chuckles
17:42	krumholt	,(counted? (range 10000))
17:42	clojurebot	false
17:43	krumholt	that returns true on my repl :)
17:44	froog	here too
17:45	krumholt	maybe that changed on some clojure version
17:46	krumholt	,(clojure-version)
17:46	clojurebot	"1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT"
17:47	krumholt	strange :)
17:54	IsaacL	(doc counted)
17:55	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:55	krumholt	,(doc counted?)
17:55	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements count in constant time"
18:45	michaeljaaka	Hi!
18:45	michaeljaaka	I have problem using inspector
18:45	michaeljaaka	I do
18:45	michaeljaaka	(require '(clojure.inspector))
18:45	michaeljaaka	(clojure.inspector/inspect #{ "hello" })
18:45	michaeljaaka	and get exceptino
18:45	michaeljaaka	user=>
18:45	michaeljaaka	nil
18:45	michaeljaaka	user=>
18:45	michaeljaaka	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.inspector (NO_SOURCE_FILE:448)>
18:45	michaeljaaka	user=>
18:46	michaeljaaka	what is wrong?
18:49	tomoj	michaeljaaka: it's (require 'clojure.inspector)
18:50	michaeljaaka	wow, it works!
18:50	michaeljaaka	thanks!
19:17	michaeljaaka	hi
19:17	michaeljaaka	I would like to process two sequences
19:17	michaeljaaka	within doseq
19:17	michaeljaaka	to do that
19:17	michaeljaaka	I have to make
19:18	michaeljaaka	(doseq [ x y (map vector '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))] and here goes body )
19:19	hiredman	nope
19:19	michaeljaaka	is there any simpler way so I don't have to map sequences with vector function?
19:19	michaeljaaka	the real code is
19:19	michaeljaaka	(doseq [ [x y] (map vector (take 5 (iterate inc 0)) (take 5 (iterate inc 2))) ]
19:19	michaeljaaka	(println x " " y))
19:21	tomoj	well, you could do
19:22	tomoj	(dorun (map #(println %1 " " %2) (take ..) (take ..)
19:22	tomoj	I would like for and doseq to be able to go through multiple seqs in parallel in a pretty way, though, hm
19:26	michaeljaaka	well with dorun is ok too
19:26	michaeljaaka	because one of the sequences have side-effects
19:26	michaeljaaka	and it blocks on I/O
19:27	michaeljaaka	but dorun is prepared for such sequences
19:51	slyrus_	does anyone around have/use anything like a clojure-y slitex for making presentations/pdfs?
20:00	chouser	'range' changed
20:00	chouser	(class (range 100))
20:00	chouser	,(class (range 100))
20:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
20:01	aaron__	i'd like to be able to serialize the Map i get back from some Clojure code. I'm currently getting a PersistentHashMap, but alas it's not actually Serializable due to its internal data structures. Should this be considered a bug?
20:02	tomoj	what did range used to be?
20:02	tomoj	aaron__: I think the idea I've heard most for serialization is to just prn and read
20:02	tomoj	and I think there are some bindings you can use to make it better
20:03	aaron__	hmmm. well, i'm doing the serialization work in Java
20:03	aaron__	(my Java code uses some Clojure code for utility stuff, then runs with the output)
20:03	aaron__	so maybe i want to use the output from an addtl. prn to send across the wire?
20:04	aaron__	what i'm currently doing as a workaround is new HashMap(theMapIgotFromClojure)... but that's a lot of extra work to
20:05	aaron__	(too)
20:05	tomoj	~def pr
20:06	tomoj	man those huge blobs on github make my browser cry
20:07	aaron__	tomoj: me too
20:08	aaron__	i wonder which is "better": serializing a new HashMap(theMapIgotFromClojure), or sending what i get back from prn
20:09	tomoj	I have no idea
20:09	aaron__	hmmm... i have to juggle an extra stream it looks like, if i go the pr route. a little awkward
20:25	chouser	tomoj: (range) used to return a Range object
20:27	chouser	I think
21:20	kanak	I have a seq of seqs how do i "flatten" then so that i can draw from the items of the first seq, then from the second, and so on?
21:22	devlinsf	kanak: there's a flatten function in clojure contrib. Check the namespace clojure.contrib.seq-utils
21:23	devlinsf	kanak: it has some trouble with sets, btw...
21:23	_ato	,(apply concat [[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]])
21:23	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6)
21:23	kanak	devlinsf: thanks. Checking it out right now. I'm not using sets so that shouldn't be a problem.
21:23	_ato	if it's just two levels that you want to flatten
21:23	kanak	I didn't want to do an apply because I don't want to have these seqs evaluated all at once.
21:25	devlinsf	,(str "Clojruebot???")
21:25	clojurebot	"Clojruebot???"
21:25	_mst	,(take 10 (apply concat [(range 1 5) (iterate inc 1)]))
21:25	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5 6)
21:25	devlinsf	cool
21:26	kanak	wait does this mean that apply doesn't force the evaluation of seqs?
21:26	hiredman	correct
21:27	kanak	cool :) I can just use apply concat then :)
21:35	mtf	can anyone tell me how to load a .jar into a running clojure instance if i did not specify it in the classpath?
21:35	mtf	is there a repl command?
21:37	chouser	mtf: you can try add-classpath, but it may not work depending on your context
21:37	_ato	~add-classpath
21:37	clojurebot	add-classpath is bad, avoid it. I mean it!
21:37	_ato	:p
21:37	_ato	yeah it'll usually work for basic things
21:37	drewr	,(doc add-classpath)
21:37	clojurebot	"([url]); Adds the url (String or URL object) to the classpath per URLClassLoader.addURL"
21:37	drewr	mtf: better is to extract the jar's class files in a path already on the classpath
21:38	mtf	ok thanks
21:38	mtf	and the path to the .jar file is a string right?
21:38	mtf	not #P"/blah" like common lisp
21:38	chouser	String or URL
21:38	drewr	(add-classpath "file:///path/to/foo.jar")
21:38	_ato	(add-classpath "file:///some/dir/")
21:38	mtf	ok
21:38	mtf	thx
21:47	hiredman	,(doc add-classpath)
21:47	clojurebot	"([url]); You are crunchy and taste good with ketchup"
21:48	chouser	much better
21:48	tomoj	who is a french fry?
21:49	tomoj	hmm, maybe "what would you say to me if I were a french fry?" ?
21:54	devlinsf	do not meddle in the affairs of dragon
21:54	devlinsf	http://www.buzzymultimedia.com/meddle-not-with-dragons.html
22:07	burny	can you nest transaction's? (send-off (some function that also sends-off))
22:07	chouser	those aren't transactions
22:08	chouser	but yes, you can send from inside an agent's action fn. The send will be held until the action completes.
22:09	hiredman	same if you send from inside a transaction
23:17	michaeljaaka	Hi
23:17	michaeljaaka	I want to create Thread
23:18	michaeljaaka	and watch how a println "Hello Wolrd" is executed
23:18	michaeljaaka	I have written somehting like this
23:19	michaeljaaka	(doto (proxy[Thread] ('run[] ( println "Hello World " )))
23:19	michaeljaaka	(.start))
23:19	michaeljaaka	but gets #<CompilerException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.ThreadGroup (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)>
23:19	michaeljaaka	user=>
23:19	michaeljaaka	Do you know why?
23:23	_ato	you don't need proxy: (doto (Thread. #(println "Hello world")) (.start))
23:24	_ato	but as to why, proxy takes two vectors before the methods, not one
23:24	_ato	and you dont need to quote run
23:25	_ato	michaeljaaka: there's some examples of using proxy here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples/Java_Interaction
23:27	george__	is clojure faster or slower than java ?
23:28	chouser	how could it be faster?
23:28	george__	taking slower time to run a program
23:28	george__	in JVM
23:30	_ato	technomancy: ha! http://gemcutter.org/gems/clojure
23:32	michaeljaaka	_ato: thanks