#clojure – 2009-11-12

2009-11-12

00:00	tomoj	I guess i can just do nested tests and put a binding around the main caller
00:51	durka42	does add-break-thread! still exist?
00:52	chouser	I think so, in repl-utils
00:52	chouser	is it not working?
00:52	durka42	oh, there it is
00:52	durka42	still useful :)
00:53	chouser	still violating Java deprecation warnings :-)
02:07	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \sum_{now}^\{eternity} all knowledge
02:08	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \sum_{now}^{eternity} all knowledge
02:08	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \sum_{now}^{eternity} {all knowledge}
02:09	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \sum_{now}^{future} knowledge
02:09	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \sum_{past}^{future} knowledge
02:13	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \size=5/5 \sum_{past}^{future} knowledge
02:13	_ato	~latex \sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}
02:14	stephenj	_ato: any idea how to make a bigger image?
02:14	clojurebot	a is b
02:15	_ato	\Large \LARGE
02:15	_ato	\huge
02:15	_ato	\Huge
02:16	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \large \sum_{past}^{future} knowledge
02:16	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \LARGE\sum_{past}^{future} knowledge
02:16	stephenj	clojurebot: latex \HUGE\sum_{past}^{future} knowledge
02:17	stephenj	_ato: LARGE and HUGE seem to work
02:17	stephenj	~latex \LARGE\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}
02:18	stephenj	~latex \HUGE\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}
02:19	stephenj	~latex \Red\HUGE\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}
02:20	stephenj	_ato: Thanks
02:23	stephenj	~latex \HUGE\sum_{past}^future \rm{knowledge}
02:23	stephenj	~latex \HUGE\sum_{past}^{future} \rm{knowledge}
02:30	hiredman	fyi you can use chs=250x100
03:39	hiredman	,(doc close)
03:39	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
03:45	hiredman	(-> url URL. .openConnection .getInputStream ((juxt clojure.xml/parse #(.close %))) first)
03:47	ordnungswidrig	hi
06:01	stephenj	~latex \chs=250x100\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}
06:18	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}
06:21	stephenj	~latex {\chs=250x100\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm{knowledge}}
06:21	stephenj	~def slurp
06:35	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \textcolor{red}\rm{knowledge}
06:36	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\textcolor{red}{knowledge}
06:37	rhickey	cemerick: proper deftype field name support was a one-liner - the rest of the code was using munged names already
06:37	rhickey	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure/commit/c58a6cfaf5788a104f4a1dcb488f731ad94a2da0
06:37	stephenj	~latex \textcolor{red}{knowledge}
06:37	cemerick	rhickey: very nice :-)
06:37	stephenj	~clojurebot
06:37	clojurebot	clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
06:38	stephenj	~def clojurebot
06:38	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
06:38	stephenj	clojurebot: location?
06:38	clojurebot	excusez-moi
06:38	stephenj	clojurebot: where are you
06:38	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
06:45	AWizzArd	Is there a way to do find-doc limited on a specific namespace?
06:45	AWizzArd	maybe find-doc can take an optional arg which may be a string, symbol or namespace object, denoting a namespace, or a vector containing such?
06:48	penthief	I'm struggling to get this working in emacs -- what should I set the infereior-lisp-program to?
06:49	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \forall\rm{knowledge}
06:52	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \exists \rm{knowledge}
06:57	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\forall\Bigg\{{knowledge}\Bigg\}
07:00	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\forall\Bigg\{{\color{red}{knowledge}}\Bigg\}
07:02	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\forall\Bigg\{{\color{red}knowledge}\Bigg\}
07:02	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\forall\Bigg\{{knowledge+learning}\Bigg\}
07:17	rhickey	for the next time someone mentions ERlang, SMP and share-nothing in the same sentence:
07:17	rhickey	http://www.erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2008-September/038231.html
07:19	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\forsome\Bigg\{{knowledge+learning}\Bigg\}
07:20	stephenj	~latex \Huge\sum_{t=0}^{\infty} \rm\exists\Bigg\{{knowledge+learning}\Bigg\}
07:21	rys	Is there any way to interact with clojurebot privately? :p
07:21	rhickey	yes, please
07:21	AWizzArd	rhickey: interesting link, thx
07:22	stephenj	sorry - i am stopping now
07:23	AWizzArd	Kenneth Lundin is convinced that Erlang is the best in class, regarding utilizing multicore machines :)
07:24	rys	Smells somewhat like the Python GIL in terms of problems it'd have
07:30	gerry_	(defprotocol display (show []))
07:30	gerry_	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
07:30	penthief	Hi, I had clojure working with SLIME just after I ran clojure-install, but when I try to (require 'slime) I get (void-variable package-activated-list)
07:34	gbt	penthief: so the clojure repl ran straight after you installed, but not when you restart emacs?
07:35	penthief	gbt: Yes exactly
07:36	_ato	penthief: did you add (clojure-slime-config) to .emacs as the install process states?
07:36	gbt	thats what I was thinking, I missed it when I first installed clojure-mode
07:38	_ato	maven's source code is bizaire, it has all this weird magical dependency injection stuff
07:39	_ato	makes it take like 10 times as much effort to do anything
07:40	penthief	No I've can't find that suggestion in any of the READMEs. Which (require ) should that go after?
07:41	gbt	penthief: no need for a require. The clojure-mode source code has a message telling you what to do
07:41	_ato	penthief: after you do the insall it pops it up in a buffer, saying something like "slime will break when you restart emacs unless you add this to .emacs" :P
07:42	_ato	penthief: just put it after you load package.el
07:42	_ato	penthief: or at the end of the file
07:42	gbt	mine broke, I was in such a rush to try clojure I never read the install instructions hehe
07:42	_ato	yeah, it should add it automatically like package.el does
07:43	penthief	Symbol's function definition is void: clojure-slime-config. I think I'll start again again.
07:43	gbt	penthief: do you use elpa? or the emacs starter kit?
07:43	penthief	I have installed elpa, yes
07:44	penthief	It works!
07:44	gbt	cool, happy hacking :)
07:44	penthief	Yes, I reread where you said AFTER you load package.el
07:45	_ato	:)
07:45	penthief	There is some clojure event in London I am going to tonight, and I didn't want to be sorting out my environment when I should be learning. Thanks very much!
07:46	gbt	nice, a clojure event. I didn't know they had started doing them over here
07:47	_ato	oh noes.. clojurebot died
07:48	penthief	Yeah, it's organised by LJC - London Java Community. I signed up the other week.
07:52	_ato	yay! I've got all the core pieces for clojars.org done now (basic web UI, database, repo deploy, jarspec/pom parsing, ssh+nailgun magic) just got to glue it all together, test, deploy and write some docs :)
07:53	gbt	I imagine the docs are the hardest bit :)
07:53	jgracin	Hi! Why is this throwing ClassCastException: Condition cannot be cast to IObj: (new clojure.contrib.condition.Condition {:type :t})
07:54	jgracin	in clojure-contrib 1.0-compatible
07:56	jgracin	in REPL, while trying to display it.
07:59	gbt	jgracin: I've never used the condition stuff. Are you working from an example?
08:02	jgracin	No specific example. I think it might have something to do with print-method, print-dup and Condition. The problem is not the Condition per se, but trying to print it.
08:03	gbt	don't know if this helps? but in the clojure/contrib/condition/example.clj code they use print-stack-trace condition
08:04	rhickey	gerry_: (defprotocol display (show [] "some doc"))
08:05	rhickey	gerry_: doc is, er, required right now
08:06	gerry_	ok
08:09	chouser	ah, that was my first comment for this morning. need a nil in the nth
08:09	chouser	:-)
08:09	rhickey	that code needs some new code
08:09	chouser	oh
08:12	gerry_	rhickey: can defprotocol directly use field name of type in functions?
08:13	rhickey	gerry_: no, those are stand-alone functions, use (:field x)
08:14	rhickey	I guess that nil is enough, still ugly
08:16	rhickey	ok, fixed
08:16	gerry_	nice
08:22	gerry_	(extend person display {:show (fn [] (println (:name person)))})
08:22	gerry_	(show me)
08:22	gerry_	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: user$eval--30$fn--32$fn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
08:22	rhickey	(extend person display {:show (fn [a-person] (println (:name a-person)))})
08:23	rhickey	all protocol fns should take at least one arg
08:23	chouser	and so it begins. :-)
08:23	rhickey	I can add a check and error for that
08:24	rhickey	chouser: are you hinting at the disparity between this and deftype methods?
08:25	chouser	well, really just harking back to our earlier conversation about deftype methods, but now that you mention it ...
08:25	rhickey	I have thought about it, and there are just so many ways in which these things _are_ very diffferent
08:25	rhickey	methods have field scope
08:26	rhickey	methods are not first-class functions or values
08:26	chouser	that is true -- deftype methods are rather less like functions than any function-like thing we've had yet.
08:26	rhickey	protocol functions have no private access to class
08:27	rhickey	methods connect directly to interface methods, protocol fns indirectly mapped
08:27	rhickey	so, calling them different things and distinguishing is going to be important
08:27	chouser	the leading . acts as a little reminder to a lot of this.
08:28	rhickey	but there simply is no 'implicit this' option for protocol fns if you want extend to be ordinary fn, and mixin maps
08:28	rhickey	chouser: yes
08:29	chouser	are - allowed in protocol method names now?
08:30	rhickey	were they not?
08:31	rhickey	they are newly allowed for deftype fields
08:31	gerry_	(extend person display {:show (fn [a] (println (:name a)))})
08:32	gerry_	(show me)
08:32	chouser	oh, ok -- I was avoiding them in an excess of caution
08:32	rhickey	chouser: obviously they won't map to an interface method without an :on
08:32	chouser	ah, sure.
08:33	gerry_	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :show of protocol: #'user/display found for class: user.person__1 (NO_SOU
08:34	rhickey	gerry_: (defprotocol display (show [x]))
08:34	gerry_	yes ,have done that
08:34	rhickey	paste please
08:34	gerry_	i tried it on repl
08:35	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "deftype is dominating me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90232
08:35	gerry_	ok
08:35	chouser	oh, hey, look at that
08:35	rhickey	(extend ::person display {:show (fn [a-person] (println (:name a-person)))})
08:36	rhickey	::person is the way to refer to a deftype type
08:37	rhickey	extend ::D
08:37	chouser	ah, thanks.
08:37	rhickey	(consl (D 5) 6)
08:37	rhickey	:consl #:D{:a 5} 6
08:38	gerry_	rhickey: change person to ::person, it works
08:39	rhickey	(doc extend) has that, will change wiki
08:40	gerry_	but i dislike the idea of "at least one arg"
08:40	rhickey	deftypes are named by keyword tags
08:40	rhickey	gerry_: how could it choose the right fn to call without one arg?
08:41	gerry_	directly use fieldname of type
08:42	rhickey	?
08:43	gerry_	defprotocol should have java "this" alike implicit arg
08:44	gerry_	(.show me)
08:45	rhickey	gerry_: protocol fns are ordinary fns
08:45	rhickey	defprotocol doesn't define any fns
08:45	rhickey	are you suggesting defprotocol shoud say (show []) and extend should say (show [me] ...)?
08:46	rhickey	er, :show (fn [me] ...)
08:46	rhickey	because it can be - :show some-existing-fn
08:47	rhickey	where some-existing-fn has nothing to do with protocols
08:47	rhickey	i.e. extend is not a macro
08:48	cemerick	I'm mostly uninvolved here, but FWIW, I think protocols (like deftype) should be disconnected from the constraints/expectations of any particular host.
08:49	rhickey	cemerick: yes, but to what are you alluding?
08:49	cemerick	rhickey: mostly a tangential reference to gerry_'s invocation of a java-like 'this' arg
08:49	rhickey	ah
08:50	kjellski	Hi there =)
08:51	cemerick	I depend on Java interop constantly, but on this side of the fence, the more X-isms can be avoided, the better (unless they are actually positive design decisions in their own right)
08:51	gerry_	yes, (defprotocol display (show [x])) what is x ? abit weird,i think
08:52	rhickey	cemerick: yes, that's a huge design point of reify/deftype/protocols
08:52	chouser	it'll be very interesting to see how well it fits into various hosts
08:52	rhickey	gerry_: but confusing no, when defining the fn, that it take one more arg than the spec?
08:53	Bart001	hey everyone, need some help concerning to interop with java. i just started with clojure, so sorry for dumb qeustion. Is it possible to create a java object in clojure, to name the object and to reuse it, maybe as a parameter in a funciton in clojure?
08:53	rhickey	chouser: with no :on in protocols or interfaces in deftypes, should be pretty simple
08:54	chouser	Having tried Javascript, I don't expect that or other "normal" OO hosts to be a problem: clr, parrot, python, ruby
08:54	cemerick	to chouser's point, I think the biggest open risk right now is the unintentional slippage of java-isms into these independent entities. It would be great if someone were to pick up the task of building a backend in something decidedly not like java, just to ensure that independence.
08:55	chouser	Bart001: yes. are you wanting to create your subclass of a Java class, or just create an instance of an existing class?
08:55	rhickey	cemerick: yes, with cinc that should be very doable
08:55	leafw	rhickey: "A pubic constructor" in http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Datatypes -- funny typo
08:56	chouser	more interesting will the ObjectiveC, C++, google go, llvm hosts
08:56	gerry_	rhickey: only when fn need one arg except "this", will use (show [x])
08:56	rhickey	leafw: fixed -thanks
08:56	leafw	IIUC, a deftype/defclass will be java classes without java files, i.e. without the pain.
08:56	Bart001	i think only from existing classes
08:56	leafw	looking forward to using them.
08:57	kjellski	How can I do this in clojure? " a = b.foo(c); a.d(e); a = b.foo(f) ; a.d(e); // so that I´ll get my a out of that?
08:57	cemerick	leafw: they manifest themselves as Java classes, but are far from full interop. The tradeoff is a higher-fidelity construct for use in clojure code.
08:58	chouser	Bart001: (def my-number (Integer. 5)) ; create an instance of Integer, passing 5 to the constructor. Store the created instance in a new Var named my-number.
08:58	gerry_	(let [a (.foo b c)] (.d a e))
08:58	leafw	cemerick: I see deftype/defclass in the context of clojure-on-clojure: to become independent of the JVM. At the same time, they provide an efficient susbtitute to defstruct, even if more constrained.
08:59	kjellski	gerry_: Thanks!
09:00	rhickey	gerry_: I get the defprotocol side, but what of the extend side, (extend ... :show (fn [what?]...))
09:02	gerry_	rhickey: just :show (fn [] ..))
09:02	rhickey	gerry_: but the fn will be passed one argument
09:02	gerry_	and directly use fields of type
09:02	Bart001	chouser: ok, i think my question was wrong. i am working on a projec tot use a existing java programm via console. this consle is a clojure repl. so i need a function to create a java object in repl an reuse it in repl
09:02	rhickey	(show something)
09:04	dmiles_afk	has someone makde a clojure to jstatic/jcall/jfield .. system?
09:05	chouser	Bart001: I may still be misunderstanding you, but if not my example still stands. Replace Integer with the name of your own class you're wanting to instantiate, replace 5 with any other ctor args. But that whole 'def' line in the repl and now, in the repl, you can refer to that object by the name my-number
09:05	dmiles_afk	hrrm .. i need to rephgrase my Q a little
09:05	froog	I keep mixing up {} and #{}, thinking that a hash map should start with a hash
09:06	rhickey	Bart001: you want to create an object in Java and make it accessible to the Clojure REPL?
09:07	dmiles_afk	clojure by defualt imports allt eh methods of plan old java objects right?
09:08	rhickey	gerry_: that can't happen - the call (show something) needs to pass something to the protocol fn, and do so in an arg
09:08	dmiles_afk	clojure by defualt imports all the methods of plan old java objects right? - well the syntax allows you to call the method.. "import" is the wrong word
09:08	gerry_	rhickey: i'm confused with java and clojure, (show something) in clojure really has one arg,
09:09	rhickey	gerry_: well, I've got the code to catch the no-arg mistake, will push in a minute
09:09	chouser	I bet case is going to help finger-tree quite a bit
09:10	rhickey	chouser: could do
09:10	chouser	I've got (condp == x 1 (...) 2 (...) 3 (...)) in a few key places
09:11	Bart001	chouser, rhickey: i want to write a function which create java objects. this function is called in the clojure repl and the created objects may used as parameters for other functions, sorry for bad english..:)
09:13	rhickey	gerry_: ok, defprotocol will now throw if no arg in sig
09:14	sh10151	What's the best way to get a clojure-1.0 compatible version of the clojure-contrib JAR into a Maven repository?
09:14	gerry_	rhickey: good
09:14	chouser	I have a friend looking at google's go. from the little he's telling me they have constructs incredibly similar to deftype, defprotocol, and extends
09:15	Maddas	You mean the interfaces?
09:15	chouser	yeah
09:16	kjellski	gerry_: your answer to my question had nothing to do with e and f... that was what was outside my
09:16	srader	for java interop, how do you override, for example, paint method of a JFrame in Swing? Still use proxy?
09:16	kjellski	gerry_: err forget the text after ...
09:16	rhickey	chouser: I'm not sure they have any dynamic polymorphic nature at all though
09:16	sh10151	Will I just need to build a clojure-1.0 compatible version of clojure-contrib locally and install it?
09:17	chouser	the three independant declarations: define a data collection with no methods or interfaces. define an interface with method sigs but no impl or data. finally, tie those two together with some method bodies.
09:17	chouser	rhickey: probably not, nor immutable anything
09:18	rhickey	i.e. they address the expression problem similarly - independent, late implementations of interface methods, but I haven't seen how that works when the explicit type of the argument is not known at compile-time. Could be I just haven't seen it
09:20	chouser	I'm under the impression no value has unknown type at compile time.
09:20	chouser	oh, "explicit type" I see what you mean.
09:23	Bart001	is it possible to write a function which creates an java object, to call this function in the Repl and having a refrence to this created object to use it as parameter for other function called in the repl. maybe this is the right question
09:23	rhickey	ok, so here's the differences
09:23	rhickey	go interfaces are method sets
09:23	rhickey	any type implementing the methods impements the interface
09:24	chouser	yeah, I thought I saw that somewhere, but didn't understand
09:24	chouser	any subset of the methods, right?
09:24	rhickey	The base type must ... be declared in the same package as the method
09:24	rhickey	^^ that's the key difference
09:24	rhickey	not independently extensible
09:24	chouser	ah
09:24	rhickey	they do have variables of (dynamic) interface type
09:25	rhickey	so, really, subject to the same limitation as interfaces - definer of class has unique capability implement interfaces
09:25	rhickey	does not solve the expression problem
09:28	Bart001	is there anyone who could help me?^^
09:29	rhickey	ugh, and because interface implementation is latent (i.e. have same method names and sigs, implement interface), then single name scope, another big problem of objects not in protocols
09:30	rhickey	i.e. no problem in implementing multiple protocols that each have a 'foo' fn, because true foo functions are in namespaces and extend connects into specific protocols
09:31	rhickey	so, no go for go
09:31	chouser	Bart001: I don't think we understand yet. can you explain the way that my earlier example is insufficient?
09:33	Bart001	because i want to write a function which creates this object via the repl
09:33	chouser	I gave you code that creates an object at the repl. You just want that inside a function?
09:35	Bart001	yes, but there is a problem with recalling the created object
09:36	Bart001	i think i cant explain my problem ^^
09:36	chouser	We could write a function "make-thing" that you could call like this at the repl: (def my-thing (make-thing))
09:37	chouser	then you can recall the created object by using the name my-thing, like: (println my-thing)
09:37	chouser	I suspect you already know that, and it's still insufficient. Can you tell me in what way it is insufficient?
09:39	chouser	rhickey: go interfaces can mix in whole method sets from other interfaces -- you think this is not useful for protocols?
09:41	Bart001	i will give you an example... there is a class called Model and i want to write the function (new model [modelname]) that creats a new model referenced to modelname. so the user can create a new model and use it by calling the modelname
09:41	rhickey	chouser: well, they must have a compilation stage that looks at the whole package and determines what is going on. The interfaces themselves are not reified in the way that protocols are. Making a composite of specs is different from making a composite of concrete protocol objects
09:41	Bart001	everything via the Repl
09:41	rhickey	that's really the problem, plus the name combining and namespaces issues
09:42	chouser	Bart001: ah, you want to keep a whole collection of Model objects so that you can look them up by name?
09:42	Bart001	yeees..:)
09:42	chouser	Bart001: ok!
09:43	rhickey	I don't disagree there is some ease-of-ise to saying this protocol implies these others, but as we've discussed, no real change in the work of actually implement A, B, and C whether a la carte or ABCComboProtocol
09:44	chouser	rhickey: yes. I guess it feels like a difference to say at defprotocol time that ABCCombo is a named thing in its own right, even if its defintion is just the set of methods defined by A B and C
09:45	chouser	rhickey: vs. not connecting them at all with defprotocol and waiting until each extend to name the three together.
09:46	rhickey	chouser: because the implementation detection is a runtime thing, the biggest benefit of combining/inheriting interfaces is not present - it is a big deal to be able, in a statically type lang, to say you take an ABCCombo as an argument, unless your lang has generics or some way to say, my function takes x, where x isa A and x isa B and x isa C. Few do (Haskell does), maybe Java/Scala generics
09:46	chouser	Bart001: there are two ways to go -- store each model object in its own Var in your namespace, or store each model as a value in a hash-map. The first is a bit easier to use, the second a bit easier to implement.
09:47	rhickey	chouser: my experience has been that you do this because of the limitation of having to take an arg of a single type, and then later regret it when an interface brings in more than you need, not as composable
09:47	chouser	rhickey: ok, I think I follow that.
09:48	rhickey	i.e. I originally though every collection should have count, but it ends up being bad for some seqs. Now there's Counted
09:48	rhickey	and I wish IPersistenCollection didn't have count
09:49	chouser	hmmmm
09:49	rhickey	over time many of the Clojure abstractions have been broken up into smaller bits so only those bits could be used a la carte
09:49	Bart001	chouser: okay.. thank you very much! i'll try
09:49	rhickey	so, protocols default to a la carte
09:50	rhickey	because there's no static typing there isn't the pressure to produce a unifying type to serve as an arg type
09:50	rhickey	but there is value in being able to say, A and B and C, if only as documentation
09:51	rhickey	(satisfies? [A B C] x) ?
09:51	chouser	hm, seems reasonable. But you're out past any deep experience of mine, so my instincts aren't to be trusted. :-)
09:52	rhickey	the namespace issue is an important, unheralded feature of protocols
09:52	rhickey	A and B can both have foo
09:53	chouser	rhickey: yes, the complete independance of method namespace from type namespace and now from protocol namespace is quite interesting.
09:53	rhickey	(extend atype A {:foo ...} B {:foo ...}), no problem
09:54	rhickey	it is a critical flaw of using classes as namespaces, and the problem with monkey-patching even in dynamic langs with open classes
09:54	rhickey	x.foo can only ever mean one thing
09:54	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "models for Bart001" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90236
09:55	rhickey	(your-ns/foo x) (my-ns/foo x), no problem
09:55	chouser	and is also why we
09:55	Bart001	thank you chouser
09:56	chouser	and is also why a protocol can be on an interface, and we'll be extending Java classes with new protocol methods.
09:57	rhickey	the first time you say (extend String ...) it's a lot of fun
09:58	rhickey	Groovy supports a lot of that, but retains the interface model
09:58	Chousuke	so what will you do if two protocols define identically named functions?
09:58	chouser	so ... it feels like translating the persistent data structures and related interfaces will be extremely straightforward and now possible. Any reason to hold back still?
09:59	Chousuke	(Protocolname:foo ...)?
09:59	rhickey	Chousuke: there's absolutely no problem with that, protocols yield functions in namespaces, normal ns stuff applies
09:59	Chousuke	ah, right.
10:00	chouser	if two protocols in the same namespace define the same method name, only one survives?
10:00	chouser	or do they combine?
10:00	rhickey	chouser: no holding back, other than impl changes - I think that trying out some of the core abstractions as protocols is the next step
10:00	sh10151	anyone an enclojure user? trying to get a project REPL to start but I get a timeout
10:01	rhickey	chouser: in the same ns they collide, last one in wins
10:01	chouser	ok
10:02	Chousuke	chouser: How's your finger tree effort going?
10:02	rhickey	chouser: one way to think about it is that your ns used to be a bunch of independent fns a b c d e, now you are going to make them extensible, placing a b in protocol X and c d in protocol Y
10:02	chouser	Chousuke: loads through line 206 of 447. :-)
10:03	rhickey	I'd like to get rid of defclass, maybe today
10:03	chouser	but won't that break everyone's code!?
10:03	chouser	you know, all the people use defclass.
10:03	cemerick	rhickey: say again? :-P
10:03	Chousuke	:)
10:04	rhickey	cemerick: we spoke about this and you agreed
10:04	chouser	heh
10:04	Chousuke	is deftype going to be able to handle all the use cases of defclass then?
10:04	cemerick	oh, right, right, right
10:04	cemerick	sheesh
10:04	rhickey	AOT compiled deftype === defclass
10:05	rhickey	the only sticking point is the conflict between factory fn and type name
10:05	cemerick	been going in 14 directions today. Shift_JIS is not fun.
10:06	rhickey	Chousuke: will do, yes, subject to understanding that some of those features are static and require recompile/reload to see changes
10:21	fogus	cemerick: Well it originates with Microsoft, so that should have given you a clue to start. ;)
10:25	chouser	protocol and deftype names should be CapsCase? Caps-Case? caps-case-type?
10:27	Chousuke	not Caps-Case :(
10:28	chouser	I'm converting from Java interface types, so CapsCase looks pleasant so far.
10:40	chouser	rhickey: so if I want to get at a deftype field when the deftype implements its own IPersistentCollection, I either need to use .foo (which is reflective?) or provide an accessor function? But wouldn't using the accessor also use reflection?
10:41	kunley	Hi.
10:42	kunley	Anyone noticed if ztellman, author of penumbra (OpenGL bindings) is hanging around here?
10:43	rhickey	chouser: no, IPersistentCollection doesn't imply ILookup. Unless you are trying to implement map/associative, then (:field x) will still be available
10:44	chouser	oh!
10:45	rhickey	the power of non-derived interfaces :)
10:47	rhickey	but we will need to expose the facilities of IDynamicType (soon to be IDeftype) .getDynamicField for cases where people are using ILookup for something else
11:02	rhickey	chouser: so, you are shooting for no gen-interface right?
11:02	chouser	right
11:02	rhickey	cool
11:02	chouser	I'm there now, just working through the consequences.
11:02	rhickey	oh, those :)
11:02	chouser	"digit" works. :-)
11:04	rhickey	one consequence should be a more dynamic dev cycle
11:04	chouser	yes, though it was surprisingly descent before.
11:05	fogus	rhickey: That's a "consequence" that I'm all for
11:05	chouser	mostly re-loading was my file was sufficient. occasional re-start of the repl followed by (compile ...)
11:06	chouser	I don't even have it properly namespaced -- the compile would do it's gen and then fail to load, but then loading the .clj manually and I was off and running again.
11:06	chouser	that was because of newnew's already lovely behavior
11:07	rhickey	yeah, one thing I've been thinking about is - what is to protocols as reify is to interfaces?
11:07	rhickey	and if there need be such a thing
11:28	chouser	right now my code for each deftype is split in about half between deftype methods and extend methods. as the collection interfaces move to protocols, I expect my deftypes to shrink to nothing but fields.
11:28	rhickey	that's the idea
11:30	chouser	none of these is sitting as cleanly in "interop" vs "native" as I was expecting.
11:30	chouser	none of deftype, reify, defprotocol I mean
11:41	replaca_	kunley: ztellman is in here sometimes, but not so often
11:45	Kjellski	chouser: What´s that about?
11:46	chouser	Kjellski: what's what about?
11:46	Kjellski	chouser : What you just wrote, what´s the context?
11:47	Kjellski	chouser : Or where can I find a channel log? ^^
11:47	chouser	~log
11:48	chouser	hmph. http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
11:48	Kjellski	chouser : thanks
11:49	chouser	oh, I see where you came in. I'm talking about moving my finger-tree implementation from def-interface+reify over to deftype+defprotocol+extend
11:50	chouser	http://github.com/Chouser/finger-tree/blob/master/finger_tree.clj
11:55	Kjellski	chouser : uff... I think that´s not my league...
11:56	chouser	not really mine either
11:56	chouser	one thing that I can do in clojure better than any other language I've yet tried: solve problems beyond my understanding.
11:57	Kjellski	chouser : interesting... someday I hope, that´s the case for me too
11:57	fogus	chouser: That should be our subtitle!! Idiomatic Clojure: Solving Problems Beyond Your Understanding
11:58	chouser	hm!
11:58	chouser	pretty attractive...
11:58	chouser	who wouldn't want to do that?
11:58	fogus	really
12:00	Kjellski	I have a problem with overriding a variable, trying to translate the following java code, where this is a proxy, could someone have a short look? http://pastebin.com/m3863f96e
12:00	gbt	as a noob who's relied on clojure-mode to install clojure what do I need to do to get a version with the protocol's?
12:00	Kjellski	I would need the sipProvider at the end...
12:01	Kjellski	~wiki
12:02	the-kenny	Kjellski: You can nest lets inside... But in clojure, using variables should be avoided
12:02	chouser	(doto (.createSipProvider sipStack tcp) (.addSipListener (proxy [] ...)))
12:02	chouser	let would be fine too
12:02	liwp	gbt: find your clojure git checkout on disk and checkout the new (?) branch
12:02	rhickey	gbt: you can try clojure.jar from here: http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure%20(new)/10/
12:04	Kjellski	I figured out how to call the first two methods, but how could I call the second, Or should I only use a tmp name and return the last, when the first is overriden from line 3?
12:04	gbt	thanks, I'm getting it now :)
12:06	Kjellski	rhickey : I´ve got a presentation in university in about two weeks, where I wanted to talk about clojure, may I borrow the logo for my presentation title page?
12:06	chouser	Kjellski: your java code is overwriting the sipProvider -- do you mean to be doing that?
12:06	rhickey	Kjellski: if it's about Clojure, sure
12:07	Kjellski	rhickey : Thanks, and yes, its name will be: "Clojure - concurrency revisited"
12:09	Kjellski	chouser : Actually it´s not my code, its from an example, but I think it could mean that... before that, sipProvider is never defined, like that is just a workarround for setting things for a factory above...
12:30	hamza	hey guys, i want to represent a tree structure (file folder in a directory) in a clojure application, i was thinking of doing it like the xml stuff and wrap every level in vectors? would you approach it like this or any other recommendation?
12:32	the-kenny	hamza: I think I would do it so. You should also have a look at: http://clojure.org/other_libraries#toc5
12:38	hamza	thx ill check this out.
12:56	chouser	if a deftype wants some pre-computed fields (based on ctor args) the only way to do that is to provide a separate factory fn that is used by convention rather than the generated factory fn?
12:59	rhickey	chouser: yes
12:59	chouser	would it be evil to redef the generated var?
12:59	rhickey	the general idea is that the 'raw' interface is for implementors, not necessarily end-user clients
13:00	rhickey	yes, evi;
13:00	rhickey	evil
13:00	chouser	ok
13:00	rhickey	defclass is ... gone
13:11	alinp	hi guys
13:11	alinp	does anyone using vimclojure ?
13:13	Kjellski	I did, why?
13:14	Kjellski	alinp : What´s your question, mybe I can help...
13:14	alinp	I can't start the REPL no matter what I do
13:15	alinp	to be honest, I don't know how to use "\sr"
13:15	alinp	I mean, I can't start it
13:15	alinp	I started the nailgun server ... and all the stuff
13:15	alinp	did the ant install ... etc
13:16	alinp	everything went fine
13:16	alinp	I did everything that is written in the README
13:18	Kjellski	Hmmm... you are sure the repl is life?
13:19	alinp	what do you mean ?
13:19	Kjellski	You´ve started the nailgun server through the vimclojure command?
13:20	Kjellski	alinp: Just a sec, booting up my linux machine...
13:20	alinp	I started the nailgun from a separate console
13:21	alinp	java -cp ... bla bla
13:21	alinp	:)
13:21	alinp	and started
13:22	Kjellski	alinp : booting ... sorry, that machine is a bit older then...
13:22	alinp	ok ok ... np
13:25	chouser	cons dispatches on the wrong arg
13:26	Kjellski	alinp : ... just a few seconds then...
13:26	alinp	:) ok
13:27	duncanm	rhickey: have you read the 'categories' system that mike evins wrote about a while back? http://mikelevins.livejournal.com/5060.html
13:28	duncanm	rhickey: also, what you said about having namespaces in protocol method names this morning reminded me of the 'explicit interface implementation' feature in C#
13:29	Kjellski	alinp : *figuring out how that went...
13:29	rhickey	duncanm: yes, read that
13:29	duncanm	rhickey: mikel evins also wrote a OO system for Clojure, and he's written that he's thinking about porting his current code (in Gambit Scheme) back to Clojure
13:29	rhickey	duncanm: and yes, C# did this better than Java
13:29	duncanm	rhickey: i haven't been able to follow all these different threads of discussion, but it seems like they're all somewhat related
13:29	rhickey	duncanm: he and I had extended discussions on the list about hierarchies etc
13:30	duncanm	oh, that's great
13:30	rhickey	we ended up disagreeing
13:30	duncanm	ahh ;-)
13:30	rhickey	which is ok
13:30	duncanm	sure thing
13:30	rhickey	he more CLOS-influenced
13:30	rhickey	I want to get away from hierarchy
13:30	duncanm	rhickey: his new post said something similar too, that he's preferring the 'flat' domain more than the c3 domain
13:31	duncanm	http://mikelevins.livejournal.com/5851.html
13:31	duncanm	so maybe your opinions are converging
13:35	Kjellski	alinp : depressing... actually I can´t figure it out. It was really simple...
13:36	alinp	yeah, that is how it looks like .. but ...
13:36	Kjellski	alinp : Sure you´ve read this right? http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
13:36	alinp	oh
13:36	alinp	managed to started it :o
13:37	Kjellski	alinp : congrats! how?
13:37	alinp	I had in the vimrc file :set nocp
13:37	alinp	and it seems that affects the plugin ...
13:37	wlr	Wow! What lightweight analysis by Information Week: http://tinyurl.com/ygv2uy3
13:37	alinp	when pressing "\"
13:38	Kjellski	alinp : okay, that´s weird... should be suggested in the docs...
13:38	alinp	not very sure how/why this affect it
13:38	alinp	sorry Kjellski and thanks for your time ;)
13:39	Kjellski	alinp : no problem, nevermind... reminded me on the graphics failure of my linux pc... urgs ATI card...
13:40	alinp	:)
13:40	duncanm	hmm
13:40	duncanm	chouser: is there a defprotocol/deftype implementation of fingertree?
13:41	chouser	not yet
13:41	Kjellski	wlr: outch, that hurts hanging arround in this channel...
13:41	duncanm	chouser: what's the reason for using a letfn? is that kinda like a letrec in Scheme?
13:42	chouser	duncanm: I measured a slight performance boost using letfn over vars.
13:43	chouser	duncanm: but that doesn't fit with defprotocol/deftype, so I'll be walking that back.
13:43	duncanm	ahh
13:45	patrkris	does anyone here know if it is possible to just get indenting and syntax highlighting from VimClojure, i.e. without the REPL-in-Vim and so on?
13:46	chouser	patrkris: yes, that's how I use it
13:46	patrkris	Ok, so what do you do? Just copy clojure.vim from indent and syntax into ~/.vim?
13:46	the-kenny	I want clojure-support in lejos
13:46	patrkris	chouser: and of course file plugin indent on and syntax on
13:47	chouser	patrkris: I think I ran the ant install thing, but then just didn't set want-gorilla thing
13:47	patrkris	chouser: ok, thanks, i'll give it a try
13:47	patrkris	chouser: which version of VimClojure are you using, a recent version or an old version?
13:48	chouser	fairly recent, I think.
14:08	leafw	how come sorted-set-by requires at least one element after the comparator? Can't one create a sorted-set with a comparator initializing it without elements?
14:12	lisppaste8	leafw pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90245
14:12	leafw	comments on the sorted-set-by problem pasted above appreciated.
14:13	chouser	Clojure fns implement Comparator
14:14	leafw	chouser: you mean the comparator could just be a simple fn ?
14:14	leafw	with two args
14:14	leafw	?
14:16	chouser	,(reduce conj (sorted-set-by #(int (- (%1 :med) (%2 :med))) {:med Double/MAX_VALUE}) [{:med 1} {:med 6} {:med 10}])
14:16	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: sorted-set-by in this context
14:16	chouser	that's a comment, though, not a solution to your problem. :-)
14:17	leafw	chouser: indeed. Thanks though.
14:20	AWizzArd	was so busy with work, i did not really see all updates.. so, defclass is gone now right?
14:21	rhickey	AWizzArd: yes, deftype can do everything defclass did
14:21	AWizzArd	Fine, I was using deftype exclusively anyway :)
14:21	AWizzArd	and i saw a mention about java naming conventions.. is it now possible to do again (:my-field my-deftype)?
14:21	rhickey	yes
14:21	AWizzArd	This is running into an error in my version as my-field is not a valid var name in Java
14:22	AWizzArd	but my checkout is several days old
14:22	chouser	leafw: looks like a bug to me
14:22	AWizzArd	oki, sounds good, so I will checkout a fresh new branch
14:22	AWizzArd	thank you :-)
14:22	AWizzArd	oh, and protocolls are also ready
14:23	AWizzArd	hmm, can i use this somehow to create some kind of hierachies?
14:23	headius	what exactly are protocols?
14:23	headius	I looked at rich's patch but I didn't understand what it was for
14:23	rhickey	headius: they are like interfaces but...
14:23	chouser	leafw: sorted-set-by allows for an empty list of initial values, but passes that on to PersistentTreeSet/create as null, but create doesn't check for null it just blindly calls .length on it.
14:23	rhickey	don't create a hierarchy
14:23	AWizzArd	i have tokens, very general objects, but i have word-tokens, digit-tokens, date-tokens, zip-code-tokens, etc
14:24	jonase_	How do I implement an interface with extends? (extend ::AType clojure.lang.Counted {:counted (fn [o] ...)}) doesn't seem to work?
14:24	rhickey	can be independently implemented, not just by the type's original author
14:24	headius	so it's for enforcing/ensuring that a set of operations are available?
14:24	rhickey	headius: so, they are a polymorphism mechanism
14:25	rhickey	because deftypes don't have operations other than for interop purposes
14:25	chouser	(sorted-set-by <) ; fails, but shouldn't
14:25	rhickey	operations are always stand-alone functions
14:25	rhickey	protocols are polymorphic on their first argument
14:25	headius	ok, I think I follow
14:26	rhickey	so they might feel like methods, but differ in that they aren't 'in' the class
14:26	AWizzArd	can i use protocols to create a function that will work for all tokens, even if i pass in an instance of (deftype zip-code-token ..)?
14:26	rhickey	and from that follows that they are not in a class name scope
14:27	rhickey	so unlike monkey patching, independent protocols can define operations with the same name without conflict
14:27	headius	because you call through the protocol, I assume?
14:27	AWizzArd	hmm
14:27	AWizzArd	best thing i will try it out tomorrow
14:27	rhickey	headius: right, the protocol ends up defining regular namespaced functions
14:28	rhickey	so there's no protocol object in the call, but my-ns/foo and your-ns/foo are different functions, only one of which can be used without qualifier in another ns
14:29	headius	how does this differ from just defining namespaced functions
14:29	headius	that you call through
14:29	rhickey	the protocol generates these functions and embeds the dispatch logic
14:30	rhickey	so the function is extensible
14:30	rhickey	ordinary functions are not, just redefine/replace
14:30	duncanm	so there's something like 'super'?
14:31	headius	ok...so it handles defining the protocol via namespaced functions, allowing calls in a given scope to look like regular function calls but actually be namespaced by the protocol
14:31	headius	or something :)
14:32	headius	twbray: what's the latest on wide finder stuff?
14:32	rhickey	the function is in a namespace as usual, the protocol defines it so that inside there is dispatch on first arg
14:32	leafw	chouser: ok, thanks. Are you submitting a bug report?
14:32	rhickey	and when it is extended, the protocol redefines the function
14:33	Kjellski	,(doc ->
14:33	clojurebot	EOF while reading
14:33	twbray	headius: I'm at the cottage hooked up via dial-up. Will be working on it again starting on Friday. At the moment, haven't figured out how to workaround the gc thrashing
14:33	Kjellski	hiredman : I´ve done my homeworks...
14:33	Kjellski	,(doc apply
14:33	clojurebot	EOF while reading
14:33	AWizzArd	rhickey: and the first argument is dispatched on what? The (class of-the-object)?
14:33	rhickey	AWizzArd: type, then class
14:34	AWizzArd	,(doc type)
14:34	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns the :type metadata of x, or its Class if none"
14:34	chouser	leafw: I'm not -- I think such things are supposed to be posted to the google group first.
14:35	headius	twbray: you might try a shorter run with -Xrunhprof to see what sort of object counts you're getting
14:35	twbray	headius: OK; any and all input welcome.
14:35	headius	^C it any time you're satisfied it's hit the bulk of its work and it will dump out a java.hprof.txt file with object allocation counts
14:36	headius	other than tweaking your code or trying G1, however, I'm running out of ideas
14:36	leafw	chouser: ok
14:36	twbray	headius: it dumps when it finishes running?
14:36	headius	if it's a lot of garbage, it's just a lot of garbage
14:36	headius	twbray: yes
14:36	lisppaste8	rhickey pasted "protocol twiddling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90249
14:36	twbray	Haven't got G1 going yet, got a query into jrose as to why my JRE doesn't seem to have it
14:37	headius	rhickey: so this seems similar to what I want to do with duby for reopening classes; they'll work basically like extension methods in C# and just pass an implicit "this" argument to a static body
14:37	headius	only the extensions in scope when you compile will be available to callers
14:38	rhickey	headius: except these are not scoped things
14:38	rhickey	extend is a global extension
14:38	cemerick	rhickey: your keynote is up: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
14:39	rhickey	cemerick: that was relatively soon
14:40	headius	rhickey: yes, this would just apply to the code compiled with a given extension enabled...but of course Duby can't actually modify Java classes already defined
14:41	headius	I assume this all only applies to clojure types too
14:41	headius	i.e. I can't add a protocol to java.lang.String?
14:41	leafw	chouser: can I quote you directly?
14:41	chouser	headius: ah, but you can!
14:41	chouser	leafw: sure
14:41	rhickey	headius: sure
14:42	rhickey	headius: because protocols are not about methods inside classes - they are polymorphic functions outside of classes
14:42	headius	ok, so it's not far off from extension methods
14:42	leafw	chouser: it's done.
14:43	rhickey	in the paste I just did, Number is java.lang.Number
14:43	headius	but mostly done at runtime
14:43	chouser	leafw: thanks
14:43	headius	foo gets defined as a normal function that ensures the target supports a given protocol and then dispatches through it
14:43	headius	protocols can be added to known types after the fact
14:43	ztellman	does anyone have experience analyzing SIGSEGV crashes?
14:44	headius	I assume there's some mapping somewhere to maintain the list of protocols a given type has had glommed onto it
14:44	rhickey	the things about methods is that a class/object constitutes a namespace, not so with protocols
14:44	ztellman	I'm getting one in linux, with code that works perfectly fine on os x
14:44	chouser	ztellman: the JVM is segfaulting?
14:44	ztellman	chouser: yes
14:45	ztellman	there's JNI in the mix
14:45	rhickey	the set of implementations is in the functions, not the objects/classes, and the functions are in namespaces
14:45	chouser	oh
14:45	ztellman	it says the error is in libjvm.so, rather than any of the .so I'm using, though
14:45	ztellman	I don't know if that's a red herring
14:45	headius	rhickey: so does the protocol maintain the mapping between types and "foo" functions then?
14:46	rhickey	headius: yes
14:46	headius	and it locates them based on the actual type of the first argument
14:46	rhickey	there is a lookup, but caches based on class of arg
14:47	rhickey	there are tagged types, then classes/interfaces of Java
14:47	headius	so it's still basically namespaced
14:48	headius	since it has to be associated with a type in order to locate it
14:48	cemerick	it just dawned on me that protocols get type reification in the jvm's backdoor, without any significant penalty
14:48	headius	cemerick: how's that
14:48	headius	it's just a call through with a table of type => function mappings
14:49	rhickey	headius: I don't see that, since 2 protocols can both have different foo for String
14:49	headius	and how does it differentiate between the two?
14:51	rhickey	a protocol is in a namespace, and generates foo in that namespace. The true name of foo is that-ns/foo. A second protocol is in another namespace, that foo is another-ns/foo
14:51	rhickey	you can say (extend String AProtocol {:foo ...} BProtocol {:foo ...})
14:51	headius	ok, I guess I'm confused by you saying it's namespaced but then saying it's not namespaced
14:52	headius	the "magic" foo is tied to a specific namespaced foo within a given namespace
14:52	rhickey	headius: I'm not sure what to presume you know about Clojure's namespaces
14:52	headius	each foo protocol in separate namespaces keeps its own mappings of type => foo function
14:52	headius	is that about right?
14:53	rhickey	the protocol is a mapping of types to maps of names to functions
14:53	headius	I know practically nothing of clojure's namespaces, so feel free to punt if I'm just not getting it
14:53	headius	I feel like I understand though
14:53	Kjellski	cya =) good evening...
14:53	rhickey	it places the dispatch into a function of the same name in a namespace
14:53	bitbckt	RubyConf should be entertaining, with all of this Clojure injection...
14:54	headius	right, so foo is that-ns/foo which has a set of type => function mappings for the ultimate "foo" targets
14:54	rhickey	for users, calling protocols looks like calling ordinary function, and deciding which to use, like ordinary require/use stuff
14:54	headius	sure
14:55	rhickey	but unlike trying to place methods in classes, there is not the limitation of one foo per type
14:55	rhickey	x.foo
14:55	rhickey	is not x.my-ns/foo
14:56	rhickey	in most langs
14:56	rhickey	c# does the right thing
14:56	rhickey	java merges
14:57	headius	right, I see this as what C# does
14:57	twbray	Wrote a short piece on using refs in Wide Finder: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/11/11/Clojure-References
14:57	G0SUB_	someone needs to write a doc explaining the protocols and types feature. with nice examples and comparisons.
14:58	danlarkin	G0SUB_: it's not done
14:58	G0SUB_	danlarkin: I know, but whatever is coming, or even the basic premise.
14:59	technomancy	twbray: you author your posts in Emacs, right? may I recommend the excellent htmlize package for syntax-highlighting code snippets?
14:59	headius	rhickey: this basically seems like what I want to do, thanks...Duby will work like C#
14:59	technomancy	when I try to read monochrome code my brain just refuses to function.
14:59	headius	but all static, of course
14:59	bitbckt	technomancy: +1
15:00	twbray	technomancy: yeah, but the CSS it generates interacts toxically with mine, I have to do some horrible CSS spelunking to figure out what's happening. :(
15:00	technomancy	twbray: ah, bummer. there's an alternate package you might have better luck with called html-fontify, but I haven't used it myself.
15:00	rhickey	headius: but if you are talking about C# extension methods, I am not
15:01	drewr	I'm trying to get my head around how this is useful http://gist.github.com/233223
15:01	drewr	if you extend String, how would one baz get dispatched over another?
15:01	bitbckt	naively, it looks last-in
15:02	rhickey	I am talking about C# inheritance - if you get foo from 2 interfaces they are not merged - you can refer to A::foo and A::foo, and have different implementations. When used polymorphically as an A - you get your A::foo impl
15:02	somnium	has anyone gotten the new branch working with swank?
15:02	rhickey	A::foo and B::foo above
15:02	chouser	drewr: you don't want to have two protocols with the same methond name in the same namespace
15:02	rhickey	in Java if you inherit foo from 2 interfaces you get a single implementation
15:03	headius	yeah, I don't know if I'd agree that c# does it "right" there, but I understand
15:03	headius	C# does it the C++ way
15:03	rhickey	merging is definitely wrong, as the semantics might be completely different, even if the signatures are the same
15:04	drewr	chouser: yeah, that makes sense, but even if they were in different nses the dispatching doesn't make sense
15:04	headius	then you don't use those interfaces together because they have conflicting contracts
15:04	rhickey	this was a point Ola Bini and I raised re: the interface injection proposal
15:05	rhickey	headius: but you can't necessarily choose the interfaces you implement since often they are requirements of APIs with which you need to interoperate
15:05	chouser	drewr: if they were in different namespaces, there would be two different baz functions, you'd pick which you mean by saying (upper/baz ...) for example.
15:05	rhickey	the bottom line is that classes make crummy namespaces
15:05	headius	sure, no argument there
15:06	headius	I can see the problem of conflicting interfaces, but I don't see that one answer is better than another
15:06	rhickey	but using the C# stuff, you realize that, as an implementor of C derived from A and B, there is no conflict in supporting both semantics
15:06	rhickey	and as a consumer of A interfaced passed as C, you will get yhe semantics you want, ditto B
15:07	rhickey	so any problems here are strictly for people that want a global view of C, not consumers of the abstractions
15:07	drewr	chouser: ok, I wasn't see the demarcation line between protocols and their impls
15:08	chouser	rhickey: should there be a warning in drewr's case? Two differently-named protocols in the same namespace defining the same method name?
15:08	rhickey	chouser: how to detect?
15:08	drewr	the idea is that you can have a namespace that defines and operates on a proto, and another client ns where the impl is tailored to fit
15:08	headius	gotta run, bbl
15:09	chouser	can't Bar see that baz exists already for Foo?
15:09	chouser	I haven't looked at the defprotocol implementation at all yet.
15:09	rhickey	chouser: baz is just a fn
15:10	rhickey	we could use var metadata for this
15:10	chouser	rhickey: stick the ... just going to say that
15:11	chouser	put the protocol name in the var's metadata -- if it matches, presume this is an intentional overwrite. name does not match, print a warning (not an error because maybe they're renaming the protocol or something)
15:11	rhickey	patch welcome
15:11	chouser	woo! Can't get to it until tonight, but I'll look then.
15:12	cemerick	twbray: I don't see a source link, but why use refs? If you're asynchronously processing N lines at a time from the log file, agents would be the way to go.
15:13	twbray	cemerick: I'm using some agents for part of the pull-lines-out-of-the-file-in-multiple-threads
15:14	twbray	I suppose it could be done with agents; not obvious why that would be better. All I'm doing is calling inc on a number, hardly seems worth its own thread
15:14	cemerick	twbray: I'm not super-familiar with the widefinder problem, but I'd say set up some number of agents, have your primary caller chunk through each line, dispatching (sending) each line off to an agent, and then await on all agents to collect results.
15:15	twbray	Once I've killed the gc problems, I'll have a try with agents and see if that makes a difference..
15:15	cemerick	twbray: agents and threads are not 1:1
15:15	cemerick	and you wouldn't pay the price of transactions at all
15:15	twbray	Gotta go, later
15:24	shoover	Also record/incr look like a race condition
15:24	shoover	Shouldn't the transaction include the counter check?
15:44	somnium	trying to try out new branch, getting error: NoSuchMethodErrror: clojure.lang.RestFn.<init>(I)V with some contrib libs from build.clojure.org, am I doing something wrong?
15:45	the-kenny	somnium: You have to rebuild contrib
15:47	chouser	might need to do ant clean first
15:49	chouser	rhickey: (instance? X nil) returns false. satisfies? throws NPE
16:19	hiredman	I've recently noticed vim's undo is mangling my clojure source files
16:19	hiredman	:(
16:19	hamza	emacs ftw :)
16:20	hiredman	if I wanted your opinion I would have asked
16:24	hamza	just joking man, no flame war intented.
16:42	rhickey	chouser: fixed
16:47	michaeljaaka	people there are two cool options
16:48	michaeljaaka	clojure-mode for emacs
16:48	michaeljaaka	and enclojure for netbeans
16:48	michaeljaaka	these editors are very cool
16:48	michaeljaaka	especially for netbeans if you are planning to mix your written java + just written in clojure modules
16:57	chouser	rhickey: thanks!
16:58	chouser	unfortunately that's not the only NPE I'm getting :-P
16:58	rhickey	send em on!
16:59	chouser	yeah, I think this one's my fault.
17:07	srader	rhickey: lines 5440-5441 in compiler.java are repeated from previous lines
17:09	rhickey	huh
17:13	srader	lines 5437-5438 are the same as lines 5440-5441. duplicates.
17:19	rhickey	srthanks
17:19	rhickey	srader: thanks
17:26	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "chain of agents" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90261
17:36	srader	chouser: nice!
17:37	slyrus_	is swank-clojure broken for others, or is it just me?
17:38	somnium	slyrus_: with new branch?
17:38	slyrus_	(going back to Sept. 28 works)
17:38	slyrus_	branch?
17:38	somnium	I have an old version, attempts to upgrade haven't worked
17:38	slyrus_	git branch -a doesn't show any branches
17:38	somnium	I ment clojure's new branch
17:39	slyrus_	oh... i'm using the HEAD as of last night
17:39	somnium	I suspect swank will need to be rebuilt to work with it, but it seems were talking about different things
17:39	_ato	HEAD of swank-clojure is working fine for me
17:39	slyrus_	how do I rebuild swank-clojure with the new maven stuff?
17:41	slyrus_	would have preferred keeping it that way...
17:42	technomancy	slyrus_: you can use the "maven" branch without using maven itself
17:42	technomancy	you only need maven if you're going to hack on the swank-clojure source itself; see the readme in the maven branch
17:42	slyrus_	well, yeah, i figured that. but what do you mean by "use"
17:43	technomancy	actually at this point it's probably best to wait for it to land in elpa
17:43	technomancy	the install-by-hand process is tedious
17:47	duncanm	technomancy: is it gonna land soon?
17:48	technomancy	duncanm: unfortunately the elpa upload process is still manual... total crap shoot on how long it takes. I'll ping the maintainer later tonight.
17:51	hiredman	~web dev
17:51	clojurebot	web dev is the worst dev
17:51	somnium	hiredman: struggling with facebook php?
17:52	hiredman	no
17:52	hiredman	facebook clojure :P
17:53	hiredman	mostly facebook and appengine
17:53	hiredman	and librarything not updating rss feeds for up to 26 hours at a time
17:54	somnium	the facebook api looked truly hideous, datastore didn't seem that horrible
17:54	somnium	hiredman: there's always slicehost :P
17:55	hiredman	appengine isn't too bad, just makes debugging with println's difficult
17:55	hiredman	facebook is not too bad, as long as you don't use any of the java clients, and just make api calls directly over http
17:56	chouser	heh
17:56	hiredman	but all those combined + librarything's rss latency is maddening
17:57	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/233395 <-- clojure facebook "api"
17:58	duncanm	hiredman: why couldn't you use the java clients?
17:58	hiredman	duncanm: I suppose I could
17:58	hiredman	they just all seemed horrible
17:59	hiredman	like the client that was formerly maintained by facebook
18:00	hiredman	POSTing to restserver.php is just so much simpler
18:00	hiredman	http://mrepo.happyfern.com/sites/facebook-java-api/facebook-java-api/apidocs/com/google/code/facebookapi/IFacebookRestClient.html
18:00	hiredman	^- ugh
18:01	hiredman	there are other clients, that do stuff like add servlet filters and I didn't want to mess with that and compojure
18:02	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/233400 <-- what a call looks like
18:03	duncanm	i need to learn more about compojure, i just finally learned what a servlet meant the other day, i was at B&N and flipped through one of those head start books
18:03	duncanm	there's all this terminology that i never bothered to learn
18:04	hiredman	I still can't be bothered, which is why I didn't even try to use one of the other clients
18:05	duncanm	hiredman: i don't really know all the variations to the destucturing syntax, what does {:keys [uid title link description image]} mean?
18:05	hiredman	it destructures a map
18:06	hiredman	uid gets the value of (:uid map), titles gets (:title map), etc etc
18:06	duncanm	oh cool
18:06	duncanm	i get it now
18:06	hiredman	it's very cool
18:07	somnium	duncanm: defnk in c.c.def uses it for keyword fns
18:07	somnium	(which btw seem to lose argmap metadata for some reason)
18:07	duncanm	yeah, coming from Scheme, i wish Scheme implementations experiemented more with these little syntactic niceties
18:07	duncanm	hiredman: call 'call' comes from compojure?
18:08	hiredman	no
18:08	hiredman	call is defined in previous gist
18:09	hiredman	call turns the map into a facebook api call (a POST) and, uh, POSTs it
18:11	hiredman	the definition of call is a little mangled because I just went through a debugging session and was shoving (.info log _) everywhere
18:13	duncanm	hiredman: which library contains with-open?
18:13	hiredman	core
18:14	duncanm	hiredman: i should go back and clean up some of my clojure code, i had to spend an afternoon chasing down missing close/flushes because i didn't use with-open
18:15	hiredman	I really hate the pull nature of rss
18:16	duncanm	hiredman: that's because of HTTP, is you need notification, you could use XMPP, right?
18:18	hiredman	sure, but xmpp is fairly complex
18:18	hiredman	webhooks seem nice and simple
18:19	hiredman	I think I might make myself a rss->webhook translator so I never have write the rss polling code again
18:20	hiredman	I think protocols may have spooked headius
18:20	bitbckt	hiredman: we'll polish him up at RC, next week ;-)
18:20	hiredman	http://twitter.com/headius/status/5658380443
18:20	bitbckt	Yeah, I saw.
18:27	Luyt	'developer ability'?
18:28	Luyt	Are they afraid people cannot understand lisp-like languages?
18:28	hiredman	high cognitive load? dunno, his words
18:28	hiredman	I don't think it's a lisp thing
18:28	bitbckt	These Go Interfaces will blow your stack, too.
18:29	bitbckt	Languages sure are fun.
18:29	hiredman	like I said, seems like maybe a response to the complexity of protocols
18:29	hiredman	or a crystalization of opinion brought about by exposure to same
18:33	_ato	eh... how are protocols any more complex than interfaces?
18:33	krumholt__	is there a debugger i can use from emacs for clojure?
18:34	jabley	hiredman: I'm not sure it's solely clojure - add in scala and others
18:34	hiredman	_ato: I think the logs of #clojure contain evidence that they are. but a lot of that might clear up once their are more examples
18:35	hiredman	jabley: sure
18:35	hiredman	scala is digustingly complex
18:36	jabley	"this type system goes up to 11!"
18:37	hiredman	not so much the type system
18:38	hiredman	the api and the standard library (which feed back into the type system)
18:39	_ato	I think the logs of #clojure just contain evidence that everyone is more used to interfaces rather than protocols and there's still a few kinks to be worked out in the implementation, but the concept is no more complex IMO
18:40	hiredman	~logs
18:40	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
18:41	hiredman	shrug
18:42	_ato	:)
18:43	patrkris	Question: I have a ref that contains a vector. An agent needs to be awoken when something is put in the vector. The agent will set the ref to the empty vector [] and process the old vector (with elements in it). While it is processing these elements, it shouldn't be notified of new elements. When it is done processing, it should either process new elements added in the meantime or wait until new elements are added. How do I get
18:44	patrkris	Should I add a watch or watcher?
18:45	krumholt__	patrkris, i think you want an agent instead of a ref? instead of putting something in the ref you send it of to the agent to process it
18:45	patrkris	krumholt__: hmmm.... you may have a point there
18:48	patrkris	krumholt__: but the thing is, I don't want an agent to process a single element at a time... it is better that it processes a batch of elements
18:48	patrkris	krumholt__: btw, it is a simulation of disk scheduler
18:49	krumholt__	patrkris, you could save the vector as the state of the agent. when you send-off something to the agent it will add it to the vector or if there are enough items accumulated it will process them
18:51	duncanm	hiredman: i think it'll be interesting to ask someone like stuart halloway what he thinks about 'avg developer ability'
18:51	duncanm	hiredman: from the comments i see in this channel, i'm usually surprised at how fast non-Lispers seem to pick up on the language
18:51	patrkris	krumholt__: yes, that is a good suggestion, except that I do not depend on a specific number of requests to have accumulated; I depend on the disk scheduler being ready (i.e. not in the midst of processing elements). The disk scheduler itself is represented by an agent and an action that takes a batch of current elements and processes them.
18:52	hiredman	I think focusing on lisp/not-lisp misses the point
18:52	duncanm	hiredman: i agree
18:53	hiredman	the point is, when do you use alter, commute, or ref-set
18:53	hiredman	or similar
18:53	krumholt__	patrkris, no idea then :) probably a watcher will be a good idea never used it
18:54	patrkris	krumholt__: thanks for you help though
18:54	hiredman	I have very limited exposure to "developers" (outside of irc) so I cannot comment on their average ability
18:56	hiredman	I just remember taking a java class at the local community college (mind you this was the second java class, after taking a class that was javascript) a large number of people still couldn't figure out how to loop over an array
18:57	Chousuke	I once tried to teach a person some python basics.
18:57	Chousuke	I kind of gave up after an hour when he was just somehow unable to understand how a simple while loop worked :/
18:57	hiredman	:(
18:58	duncanm	Chousuke: you should have taught tail-recursive calls instead ;-)
18:58	Chousuke	It lead me to think that maybe some people are just unable to learn programming :)
18:58	jabley	Or logical thinking of any type!
18:58	patrkris	some people simply cannot learn to program: http://www.cs.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/
18:58	Chousuke	it does require the ability to visualise rather abstract things.
18:59	duncanm	in some sense, tail-recursion is easier to understand, right? as long as you don't care about stack size, it's just calling a procedure. if they can understand (f x), they can understand (f (dec x))
19:00	Chousuke	but can they understand a procedure calling itself?
19:00	duncanm	well, you gotta start with that, also you'd hope they learned some of that from high school math
19:00	hiredman	duncanm: you also need a terminating case
19:01	_ato	at ANU they teach haskell first and then java... it's quite interesting how it seems to polarize the students, those that have no programming experience often cope better with haskell (as it's more like maths), while those that have imperative language experience tend to find it more difficult
19:01	hiredman	interesting
19:01	duncanm	i went to school where they taught PLT Scheme, and the experience there is similar to _ato's
19:02	duncanm	it was fun being a tutor for the 2nd year java class, and having kids write code like 'return for (int i; ...)'
19:02	duncanm	that was memorable moment for me
19:02	krumholt__	thats my experience too people who have been "exposed" to imperative languages tend to have more problems learning a functional language
19:03	Draggor	Is there a way to get around clojure forcing me to define all of my functions in order?
19:03	Chousuke	use declare
19:07	duncanm	Chousuke: is there a reason why order of function definitions is not implemented like other languages? does it have to do with the reader?
19:08	Chousuke	yes. :P
19:08	Chousuke	or rather, the compiler.
19:08	Chousuke	or both.
19:09	gbt	Chousuke: how is your reader going?
19:10	Chousuke	gbt: Compiles Clojure, contrib and itself, passing all tests. I just haven't had the time to polish it up.
19:10	duncanm	Chousuke: what are you writing?
19:10	Chousuke	or "compiles". I mean I can use it in place of the Clojure reader and it works.
19:11	Chousuke	But it's unoptimised and undocumented and still fairly messy.
19:12	chouser	so, a naive port of finger trees from letfn+reify to deftype+defprotocol costs between 15% and 300% in performance, depnding on work load.
19:12	Chousuke	however, since it works it'll be easy to improve. I thought about rebasing it on the 'new' branch
19:12	hiredman	:\|
19:13	hiredman	300%
19:13	_ato	I think I must be brain damaged from writing too much C code, I actually like having a forced order of function definitions :p
19:13	gbt	duncanm: he's written a reader in clojure rather than java
19:13	Chousuke	the worst of the mess right now is syntax-quote though.
19:14	Chousuke	I put that in core.clj in my branch, intending to make it a macro... but that didn't work.
19:14	Chousuke	so now it's just a read-time function
19:14	Chousuke	but the remnants of the macro still exist in core.clj :P
19:14	Chousuke	and other stuff like that which needs cleaning up
19:15	Chousuke	it turned out that autogensyms complicate syntax-quote a fair bit.
19:16	_mst	_ato: I misread you for a minute there and thought you were saying that you liked having the order of evaluating function arguments undefined. Now I only think you're partially crazy rather than fully crazy...
19:16	Chousuke	I suppose a code-walker is needed to make it a real macro, but clojure.walk isn't available when syntax-quote is defined :(
19:18	Chousuke	or hmmh.
19:18	timothypratley	I'm adding some tests for sorted-set-by and am confused by the following behavior if anyone can give me a hint:
19:18	Chousuke	I wonder if it is possible to just take advantage of the bootstrapping and define syntax-quote as a macro in the reader namespace, where all of clojure.core is available.
19:18	timothypratley	,(sorted-set 1 "a")
19:18	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.String
19:19	timothypratley	,(sorted-set-by compare 1 "a")
19:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: sorted-set-by in this context
19:19	timothypratley	oh well in head it says RuntimeException : ClassCastException
19:19	timothypratley	I can't figure out why its not the same exception.
19:20	Chousuke	,(compare 1 "a")
19:20	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
19:20	Chousuke	your comparator makes no sense it seems
19:20	timothypratley	Yup I want it to throw a ClassCastException
19:21	timothypratley	but I'm getting a RuntimeException wrapping the ClassCastException for sorted-set-by
19:21	timothypratley	but just ClassCastException for sorted-set
19:21	gbt	Chousuke: it all sounds really interesting and I wish I understood, but you're talking well above my head :)
19:22	Chousuke	gbt: implementing syntax-quote as a macro seems to be way above my head as well, so don't worry too much.
19:22	Chousuke	but hm
19:22	Chousuke	now I guess need to try out a few things...
19:25	timothypratley	ah I think I see what is going on... Util.compare must have a catch or something I'll look there
19:29	timothypratley	Nope... the util compare explicitly casts its arguments maybe that's where the exception gets triggered, whereas with a custom comparator it goes further and somehow that results in a runtime exception wrapping it, but I don't understand why or how to fix it.
19:35	_ato	,(sorted-set 1 2 :a)
19:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Keyword
19:35	_ato	,(sorted-set :a "b")
19:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.String
19:36	_ato	timothypratley: does it make sense to have a sorted set of things of different types? how are 1 and "a" supposed to be ordered?
19:36	_ato	oh wait sorry, missed that you said you're just expecting the same exception
19:44	chouser	http://tinyurl.com/yeh5fgg/finger_tree.clj
19:45	chouser	dunno why I pasted that, except it's passing all its tests again.
19:47	_ato	timothypratley: so it's line 44 in AFunction.java... not sure if there's a way to get around java's declared exceptions
19:54	chouser	clojure is an excersize in trying to get around java's declared exceptions
19:54	chouser	:-/
19:55	timothypratley	_ato: ah yeah thanks I should have noticed that, all compares were looking the same to me but you are quite right - totally different.
19:55	timothypratley	chouser: hahahaha what have I got myself into :(
19:57	_ato	http://www.mail-archive.com/javaposse@googlegroups.com/msg06200.html
19:58	gbt	oh my, defprotocol, extend, deftype ... it may take me a while to understand, but that is an example of all the new features
19:58	_ato	there's that, but it's not perfect as you can't write a catch in java with a checked exception that's not declared
20:10	timothypratley	Hmmm _ato/chouser: n00bish question but I've discovered (sorted-map-by) and (sorted-map) has the same asymmetric exceptions, so maybe its fine to just leave it as is. Or I could easily create a RuntimeException for the compare that doesn't catch and re-throw. It seems to me that wrapping the exception is preferred? If I do that they will be the same. Or I can just make the tests ignore the fact that different exceptions ar
20:16	timothypratley	I'm inclined to just remove the exception test and post about it on the group for now.
20:17	timothypratley	So I don't cause any damage :)
20:19	chouser	I don't think the type of exception thrown is part of the promised interface of much of anything in Clojure.
20:20	chouser	throwing vs. not throwing perhaps, but not the type of the exception.
20:20	timothypratley	yeah good point - I'm happy with that!
20:28	rhickey	chouser: snazzy!
20:29	rhickey	looking at your code, it looks like, when extending with fn defs inline, a macro could get rid of the maps and (fn s
20:30	rhickey	making the extend as concise as the defype inline methods
20:33	Chousuke	rhickey: does the :private metadata work on protocols btw?
20:46	rhickey	Chousuke: not sure all metadata is flowing through and maintained yet
20:53	alexyk	hi guys -- I'm trying to do mvn install in clojure-contrib, but it needs the clojure jar in maven repo. Going back to the original clojure, pom.xml has no real install targets. How do you deploy clojure itself into maven repo locally?
21:01	durka42	is there a way to make interleave "greedy"? i.e. if one seq runs out, just conj the rest of the other one on
21:01	durka42	,(interleave [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
21:01	clojurebot	(1 4 2 5 3 6)
21:02	durka42	,(interleave [1 2 3] [4 5])
21:02	clojurebot	(1 4 2 5)
21:06	alexyk	ok, take 2... anyone installs clojure jar into his/her own local m2 repo?
21:07	hiredman	alexyk: have you looked at the deploy target in build.xml?
21:08	alexyk	hiredman: yeah, but when I say and deploy it says not so fast. It's some macro, no such target deploy...
21:09	hiredman	oh
21:10	hiredman	shrug
21:10	alexyk	furthermore, some projects depend on clojure-lang jar; is it the same as clojure-1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT.jar?
21:11	_ato	alexyk: you could just add http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/ as an extra repository in your pom or settings.xml
21:11	_ato	alexyk: yeah clojure-lang is the same as clojure.. the pom had clojure-lang by mistake in older versions
21:12	alexyk	_ato: yeah, I can grab a snapshot off external repo, but I wonder how I deploy a local build.
21:13	chouser	rhickey: should the existing method checks happen at defprotocol macro-expand time, or be in the expansion?
21:13	_ato	mvn install:install-file -DpomFile=pom.xml -Dfile=clojure-1.1.0-alpha-SNAPSHOT.jar
21:13	_ato	^ alexyk that should do it
21:14	chouser	if you load something that's been AOT compiled, the macros don't get called, right? So it should be in the expansion.
21:15	alexyk	_ato: true, too :) still I wonder why there's a pom.xml in clojure off github doing nothing, and a macro deploy in build.xml which does nothing obvious, and a "-setup-maven" target which can't be called...
21:16	gilbertleung	hi everyone
21:16	chouser	except this is only a problem within the same namespace. You're not going compile one namespace into separately loadable things, so checking at macro-expand time (that is, during non-AOT load or during AOT compile) should be sufficient?
21:16	_ato	alexyk: because Rich doesn't use maven. the stuff in build.xml is probably for auto-deployment to external repo (like for build.clojure.org to use)
21:17	alexyk	_ato: ah ok...
21:17	gilbertleung	does anyone kno why, even thought i've set prxml-indent to 10, but prxml still prints my xml structure as a one liner?
21:17	chouser	but the interning of the protocol methods doesn't happen until until runtime. if you put the two conflicting defprotocols in, say, a do form, when the macros expand neither will see the other.
21:17	chouser	ok, it clearly has to go in the expansion.
21:18	chouser	rhickey: I'm glad we had this little talk. ;-)
21:21	_ato	gilbertleung: works for me, how are you setting prxml-indent ?
21:21	gilbertleung	(def prxml-indent 10)
21:21	_ato	(binding [prxml-indent 10] (prxml [:foo [:bar]])) <-- I did this
21:22	gilbertleung	oh, icic
21:25	_ato	if you always want to pring with indent 10, a common idiom is just to wrap the prxml function, so something like: (defn myprxml [& args] (binding [prxml-indent 10] (apply prxml args)))
21:26	gilbertleung	thx _ato
21:28	rhickey_	chouser: np, glad to help :) you've got it right, must be in expansion
21:34	Qvintvs	i'm trying to write a function that checks if its argument is in one of three vectors, returning a corresponding symbol, or nil if it's in none of them. what would be an elegant way to do this? i was going to do something like (if (in-col? str nouns) :noun (if in-col? str verbs.... in-col? is a function i wrote, im not sure if there's something like that in clojure already
21:35	hiredman	you could use a multimethod
21:35	hiredman	oh
21:35	hiredman	nevermind
21:37	hiredman	((comp first first filter) second (map (juxt identity #(.contains % "foo")) v1 v2 c3))
21:37	rlb	Qvintvs: (not-any? pred coll)?
21:38	rlb	Qvintvs: or (some ...) depending on what you want...
21:38	hiredman	[v1 v2 v3]
21:46	_ato	,(some #(when (some (partial = :poke) (val %)) (key %)) {:nouns [:cat],:verbs [:poke]})
21:46	clojurebot	:verbs
21:47	somnium	no animals were harmed in the creation of this example
21:47	_ato	,(contains? [:fish] :fish)
21:47	clojurebot	false
21:47	_ato	that always throws me off
21:48	tomoj	,(contains? [:fish] 0)
21:48	clojurebot	true
21:48	tomoj	:)
21:49	_ato	yeah, I'd prefer if it was called contains-key? or something like that
21:54	chouser	rhickey: I've got a patch, where do you want it?
22:04	_ato	,(condp #(%1 %2) :dog #{:cat :dog} :noun #{:chase} :verb)
22:04	clojurebot	:noun
22:05	_ato	Qvintvs: better to use sets if order doesn't matter, will be faster
22:05	Qvintvs	_ato, ah, thx
22:05	chouser	,(case :dog (:cat :dog) :noun (:chase) :verb)
22:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: case in this context
22:13	ngoc	Hi, I think Compojure is still young. Which (Java) web framework is suitable for Clojure? I heard from the mailing list that Restlet is good. But doesn't it use annotation, and Clojure does not support annotation at the moment?
22:14	somnium	ngoc: what does compojure not do that you want it to do?
22:18	ngoc	somnium: Actually I do not have concrete requirements right now, so I can't answer your question. I just want to know about Compojure's alternatives beforehand. Java has a lot of web frameworks right?
22:19	_ato	ngoc: I don't think you're going to find many java web frameworks that work well with Clojure as most java frameworks are designed around classes.
22:19	_ato	you could use them with gen-class but it would be painful
22:19	_ato	an alternative to compojure is cascade: http://wiki.github.com/hlship/cascade/
22:23	rhickey	chouser: email to dev ok - thanks!
22:25	somnium	ngoc: there is also conjure, I'm not sure mature it is either. I would say that compojure does a good job of exposing http request/response to the developer, so its easy to extend it with clojure's strengths.
22:27	somnium	eg. its remarkably easy to imitate rails insta-routes with a macro if thats what you want
22:35	Qvintvs	is there a function that gives you a subset of an ordered collections based on start/end index numbers?
22:36	Qvintvs	collection*
22:37	somnium	,(take 5 (drop 5 (iterate inc 1)))
22:37	clojurebot	(6 7 8 9 10)
22:38	_mst	or if you've got a vector, subvec can do it in constant time
22:58	cataska	hi, (iterate inc 1) means clojure know "inc" is a function, so i don't have to quote "inc", right ?
23:00	_ato	,inc
23:00	clojurebot	#<core$inc__4430 clojure.core$inc__4430@b551e4>
23:00	_ato	,(type inc)
23:00	clojurebot	clojure.core$inc__4430
23:00	_ato	cataska: you almost never have to quote functions
23:02	cataska	_ato: ok, "almost" means there are some exceptions
23:04	chouser	'inc evaluates to a symbol. inc evaluates to a function
23:10	headius	protocols didn't spook me
23:10	headius	I just can't imagine 90% of the devs I've worked with ever getting them
23:12	cataska	chouser: thanks
23:12	hiredman	headius: "spook" was a poor choice of words on my part
23:13	headius	it was
23:13	headius	I should gush more about the good aspects of these languages
23:13	headius	but that seems less useful
23:40	yacin	is there a way to make clojure.xml/parse work on a string of xml?
23:40	hiredman	StringReader
23:40	hiredman	or whatever
23:41	yacin	gotcha, cool
23:41	hiredman	I think I used ByteArrayInputputStream or something like that
23:41	hiredman	from java.io
23:47	yacin	java.io.StringReader worked for what i needed
23:47	yacin	just needed to convert it to org.xml.sax.InputSource
23:47	yacin	before i threw it to xml/parse
23:51	hiredman	erm
23:51	hiredman	,(doc clojure.xml/parse)
23:51	clojurebot	"([s] [s startparse]); Parses and loads the source s, which can be a File, InputStream or String naming a URI. Returns a tree of the xml/element struct-map, which has the keys :tag, :attrs, and :content. and accessor fns tag, attrs, and content. Other parsers can be supplied by passing startparse, a fn taking a source and a ContentHandler and returning a parser"
23:51	hiredman	http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/io/ByteArrayInputStream.html
23:52	hiredman	,(-> "foo" .getBytes java.io.ByteArrayInputStream.clojure.xml/parse)
23:52	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.io.ByteArrayInputStream.clojure.xml
23:52	hiredman	,(-> "foo" .getBytes java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. clojure.xml/parse)
23:52	clojurebot	org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Content is not allowed in prolog.
23:56	yacin	,(-> "foo" java.io.StringReader. org.xml.sax.InputSource. clojure.xml/parse)
23:56	clojurebot	org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Content is not allowed in prolog.
23:58	yacin	,(-> "<test>lol</test>" java.io.StringReader. org.xml.sax.InputSource. clojure.xml/parse)
23:58	clojurebot	{:tag :test, :attrs nil, :content ["lol"]}