#clojure – 2009-09-08

2009-09-08

00:09	duck1123	Is there any way to make stack traces give out a little more context as to what namespace a file is in? I deal with 3 files for any given name
00:10	duck1123	I could always add -controller and -view, etc. but I'd rather not have to deal with that all the time
00:10	duck1123	appname.controller.user-controller (or some variant) seems redundant
00:31	technomancy	duck1123: with slime you can just press v with the point over the stack trace frame to jump to that function
02:53	tomoj	whaaat aquamacs is unsupported?
02:54	tomoj	oh, that doesn't mean it doesn't wor
03:10	somnium	what is the idiomatic way to call (fn [x y z] {x (y+z)}) with (seq 1 2 3))?
03:12	cark	(apply your-func your-seq)
03:12	cark	that's if i understood your question
03:13	somnium	that did it, thanks
03:13	cark	=)
03:13	somnium	didn't realize apply used the arity of the function you call it with
03:14	cark	it doesn't
03:14	cark	apply does not know anything about arity
03:14	somnium	? then how does it pass the right number of args?
03:14	cark	mhh that's implementation details i'm not comfortable going into
03:15	somnium	ok... well it seems to use arity :) I don't really care it does what I wanted
03:15	cark	hehe right =)
03:41	jamesp__	Hi, I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but how do I expand a list into the arguments for a function?
03:41	hiredman	,(doc apply)
03:41	clojurebot	"([f args* argseq]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending args to argseq."
03:44	jamesp__	Perfect. Thanks hiredman, one step closer! Cheers
03:50	Fossi	eh. seems like it apply day today
04:20	somnium	are there any good resources on becoming really productive with slime/emacs clojure? I've gotten comfortable enough but always this feeling I'm using 5% of the features
04:34	Chousuke	somnium: heh, I have the same problem :P
04:34	Chousuke	that 5% is probably enough for now.
04:34	Chousuke	somnium: are you already using paredit.el? :)
04:34	somnium	yeah
04:34	somnium	though sometimes it irritates me
04:35	somnium	have a hard time deleting parentheses, I'm sure theres some shortcut but I havent found it on the cheat sheet yet
04:35	somnium	end up using cut and paste
04:35	somnium	ctrl + arrow keys is very handy at times though
04:36	Chousuke	you should never need to delete individual parentheses :/
04:36	somnium	pairs of them
04:36	Chousuke	just backspace? :)
04:36	somnium	it refuses unless they're empty
04:37	Chousuke	sometimes I end up with a mismatched paren but C-q ( or ) to match it again and then deleting it works fine.
04:37	Chousuke	somnium: oh, of course.
04:37	Chousuke	somnium: use C-k to kill the entire sexp
04:37	somnium	ah, maybe that's what I've been missing
04:38	somnium	perhaps it will feel like 6% now ;)
04:39	somnium	I have the cheatsheet but nothing seems to stick, maybe I'll paste it to the wall
04:39	Chousuke	paredit has more features than that of course but I'm doing well with just C-k, paren matching and barf/slurp
04:40	Chousuke	somnium: to make it stick I guess you need to spend some time forcing yourself to use the more complicated functionality, even if it feels slower than the simple way.
04:40	Chousuke	once your hand learns the motions it should become a lot faster :)
04:41	somnium	yes, I only just remapped ctrl to caps-lock
04:41	Chousuke	heh
04:42	somnium	Id like to try switching to vim for a slightly simpler life, but I can't get vimclojure to work
04:42	Chousuke	you can try viper.el in emacs :P
04:42	Chousuke	I actually mapped meta to capslock and ctrl to the cmd keys
04:42	Chousuke	having two controls helps
04:43	Chousuke	and they're easy to press with the thumbs
04:44	somnium	hmm, I tried viper but I just stay in insert mode and use emacs commands out of laziness(?)
04:44	somnium	and I don't know how to configure (haven't bothered to see how yet)... configuring .vimrc compared to configuring .emacs is... night and day
04:49	Fossi	i guess everybody has that 5% margin left to go
04:50	Fossi	that's why emacs rocks so much
04:50	Fossi	oh, i misread
04:51	somnium	it would be nice if it was possible to use clojure instead of elisp
04:51	Fossi	well, that's just an emacs rewrite away ;)
04:51	somnium	!
04:51	somnium	clojure-emacs-script
04:52	somnium	elisp-generator, how hard can it be to translate a lisp to another lisp?
04:56	Chousuke	well, Clojure has lexical scoping and immutable data structures
04:56	Chousuke	elisp has dynamic scoping and very mutable data structures :P
04:58	somnium	true... pure code-generation might not be so bad, but that would require intimately learning elisp, and by the time I did that I suspect I wouldn't want to write the program anymore
04:58	somnium	like removing parentheses from lisp or something
05:00	Chousuke	the human brain is good enough at removing the parentheses when needed :)
05:01	somnium	I find indenting my expressions so I can read them again at a glance is far more challenging than parsing parentheses
05:07	Fossi	is there something like yasnippets for clojure? a more useful slime-complete-form?
05:10	somnium	you could use yas if you write your own snippets couldn't you?
05:11	somnium	is there a standard way to combine two seqs, like (foo bar) and (nil nil nil nil) to get (foo bar nil nil) ?
05:16	somnium	I guess (take (count b) (cons a b)) isnt so bad
05:19	Fossi	sure i could, but maybe there's something useful already
05:20	somnium	macros = snippets++ ;)
05:21	somnium	(= macros (inc snippets)) #=> true
05:25	Chousuke	(defn dropcat [a b] (lazy-seq (if (seq a) (cons (first a) (dropcat (rest a) (rest b))) b)))
05:28	somnium	I wish there were more examples in some of the doc-strings
05:29	liwp	somnium: and cross references to other related fns
05:29	Chousuke	cross-refs would be more useful as separate metadata
05:29	liwp	sure
05:33	somnium	hmm, maybe a doc-string browser like gem-server would do the trick
05:34	somnium	still would need the metadata...
05:34	liwp	I guess ideally the examples would be separate metadata as well
05:35	liwp	i.e. the doc string would be multiple entries that then get compiled together when you call (doc) or for online documentation
05:36	somnium	it would be nice to have a little swing app that has a cross-referenced db of core and contrib with hyperlinks to relations
05:36	somnium	and related javadocs
05:37	somnium	,(doc lazy-seq)
05:37	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls."
05:37	somnium	where to get doc for Iseq and Seqable?
05:41	tomoj	somnium: you could build it yourself with javadoc
05:41	tomoj	but for ISeq you might as well just look at the source
05:41	tomoj	not much there
05:41	Chousuke	There's no javadoc for the interfaces yet I think :/
05:42	Chousuke	which is a shame.
05:42	tomoj	similarly for Seqable
05:42	tomoj	Seqable is just one method, seq(), which returns an ISeq
05:42	tomoj	ISeqs can do cons(Object), first(), more(), next()
05:43	tomoj	I guess more==rest?
05:43	tomoj	~def rest
05:43	tomoj	yup
05:44	Fossi	somnium: well, for defn it would make sense to have a snippet
05:44	Fossi	and i guess there are other
05:45	tomoj	I guess Reversible is a contract for constant-time rseq like Counted is a contract for constant-time count?
06:02	Fossi	somnium: i'd also like a thing that's like eldoc, but with a template
06:07	cschreiner	nested #() are not allowed, how to solve?
06:07	hiredman	use fn
06:07	cschreiner	ok
06:07	cschreiner	so it's a reader-problem
06:08	hiredman	nesting #() would be a pain anyway
06:08	Chousuke	it's not that difficult to implement
06:08	hiredman	argument names all are the same
06:09	Chousuke	it just would be confusing :/
06:09	hiredman	clojurebot: #()?
06:09	clojurebot	#() is not a replacement for fn
06:09	hiredman	clojurebot: function literals?
06:09	clojurebot	Function literals are cute, but overused
06:09	cschreiner	yes, I see the point with % in nested #()
06:11	cschreiner	I fucking love the expressivity of clojure, is it ok to say that?
06:11	liwp	can one use #() in macros?
06:11	hiredman	liwp: best not
06:12	Chousuke	,`(do #(foo %))
06:12	clojurebot	(do (fn* [sandbox/p1__4222] (sandbox/foo sandbox/p1__4222)))
06:12	liwp	yeah I've avoided them so far
06:12	Chousuke	that would fail I think :/
06:13	Chousuke	yep: Can't use qualified name as parameter: user/p1__2363
06:14	liwp	indeed
06:14	Chousuke	though you can use #() in macros as long as it's not part of the generated code.
06:14	somnium	Chousuke: thanks for that dropcat fn, its proving very handy
06:15	cschreiner	Chousuke: yep, thanks for the input
06:15	cschreiner	kitos, or whatever you say
06:15	liwp	Chousuke: yeah that's right, but I was specifically interested in the generated code case which wasn't working for me IIRC
06:15	Chousuke	cschreiner: two i's
06:15	cschreiner	:-)
06:16	Chousuke	liwp: best just use fn in those cases.
06:16	liwp	so it would seem :)
06:16	Chousuke	,`(fn [x#] (inc x#))
06:16	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [x__4226__auto__] (clojure.core/inc x__4226__auto__))
06:18	liwp	so the difference here is that #() generates a qualified name as a param?
06:18	liwp	,`(do #(inc %))
06:18	clojurebot	(do (fn* [sandbox/p1__4230] (clojure.core/inc sandbox/p1__4230)))
06:18	Chousuke	liwp: the difference is that it expands at read time so ` qualifies the symbols.
06:18	liwp	ahh yes
06:18	Chousuke	,'#(foo bar)
06:18	clojurebot	(fn* [] (foo bar))
06:18	Chousuke	,'#(foo bar %)
06:18	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__4237] (foo bar p1__4237))
06:18	Chousuke	,`(fn* [p1__4237] (foo bar p1__4237))
06:18	clojurebot	(fn* [sandbox/p1__4237] (sandbox/foo sandbox/bar sandbox/p1__4237))
06:19	liwp	cool, thanks
06:20	Chousuke	wonder if I should submit my syntax-quote macro for inclusion in Clojure already :/
06:22	Chousuke	my reader is not yet ready but syntax-quote only needs a couple tweaks and it should be fine.
06:23	liwp	Chousuke: what is this reader work that you've been doing? Why are you writing your own reader?
06:24	Chousuke	liwp: well, I thought it might be a fun project, and if it turns out good enough it could replace the current reader (which is written in java)
06:24	somnium	any chance of sneaking in reader-macros?
06:25	Chousuke	not until rhickey approves of them :P
06:25	liwp	which does not seem likely ATM
06:25	Chousuke	my current reader code makes only a few direct calls to java so it could be usable from ClojureCLR and other ports too. that would be a bonus
06:26	Chousuke	though all this is just talk. I still have a lot of work to do until the reader is really usable
06:26	somnium	any talk of making a ClojureC by anyone?
06:26	Chousuke	it's mostly feature-complete already but I haven't even looked at what it would take to make Clojure actually use it. :P
06:27	liwp	Chousuke: that does sound like a nice little project. For some reason I didn't realise that the current reader was writtne in Java althought have seen LispReader.java in the source tree...
06:30	Chousuke	if you want to see what I have currently just browse http://github.com/Chousuke/clojure/tree/clojure-reader (it's src/clj/clojure/lang/reader.clj, and syntax-quote is in core.clj)
06:32	Chousuke	it should have no major omissions anymore so feel free to test. I might have forgotten something though. :P
06:32	Chousuke	but now I must hurry away
06:32	liwp	I'll have a look...
06:43	cemerick	somnium: you mean a C compile target?
06:45	somnium	yeah, a pure C implementation, seems unlikely I guess
06:45	cemerick	I think targeting chicken scheme, which emits C, is more likely
06:49	LauJensen	Good afternoon gents
07:09	cemerick	speaking of, I don't think I've ever seen a woman's name in the channel or on the group :-/
07:15	cemerick	just how evil would it be to use an atom to control the termination of a for comprehension? Any less evil if I'm immediately consuming the comprehension?
07:16	cemerick	I've got a bit of a nasty nested loop, and I'm toying with reimplementing it using something like (last (for ...))
07:16	clojurebot	0
07:16	Fossi	0?
07:18	Fossi	out of curiosity: how do you format a number, if you don't know whether it might be a BigDecimal?
07:28	konr\|afk	Is there a template system, like php's smarty or python's tenjin, for clojure?
07:28	durka42	there are a few
07:28	durka42	enlive is one
07:29	konr\|afk	hmm, any idea which is the fastest?
07:29	durka42	i do not know
07:31	cemerick	isn't templating the least of one's concerns, vs DB access, bandwidth/latency, etc? (when templating for a web environment, anyway)
07:32	konr\|afk	I think you are right...
07:32	konr\|afk	the bottleneck of my application is the DB access
07:33	konr\|afk	I think - at least mysql is the most cpu-consuming app when the server gets laggy
07:35	cemerick	optimize thine queries :-)
07:49	LauJensen	cemerick: it would be very evil
07:49	cemerick	LauJensen: yeah, I know :-)
07:50	cemerick	I'm working on unifying the loop
07:50	LauJensen	good - if you fail I'll have to ban you from the group
07:56	LauJensen	Guys, have you seen 'rising links' on DZone this morning? :)
07:59	ambient	the page doesn't work for me, so paste a link
08:00	LauJensen	www.dzone.com
08:00	ambient	javascript:void(null)
08:00	ambient	i mean the rising links tab
08:00	LauJensen	oh.
08:00	LauJensen	the only way to see it is to have that js evaled, that'll give you a new tab
08:00	LauJensen	but the point was that my 'java vs clojure' post was on top
08:02	ambient	cool ;)
08:03	ambient	hmm, i wonder if i can add a macro to vimperator that adds sites to whitelist in adblock+
08:26	LauJensen	It happend, Java vs Clojure is #2 on the frontpage of DZone :D
08:27	ambient	grats
08:27	LauJensen	Thanks :)
08:53	gerryxiao	hello
08:53	gerryxiao	what's chunks?
08:54	gerryxiao	how to make (range 0 1000) to trunks?
08:58	Chouser	,(chunked-seq? (seq (range 0 1000)))
08:58	clojurebot	true
09:01	Chouser	gerryxiao: does that help?
09:04	gerryxiao	i want to know why use chunk,and how
09:05	Chouser	chunked seqs are an implementation detail -- you're meant to be able to ignore them.
09:05	gerryxiao	oh
09:05	Chouser	many builtins now produce chunked seqs when you call 'seq' on them, like range and vectors
09:05	gerryxiao	but it seems master branch not support it yet?
09:06	Chouser	I think it does. Did you try that snippet I showed above?
09:06	gerryxiao	why still have one chunks branch?
09:07	Chouser	just hasn't been deleted yet, I guess. Looks like all its patches are in master.
09:08	gerryxiao	it works under master
09:09	Chouser	If the chunked seq API is documented anywhere, I can't find it. For now I guess you'd have to read the code.
09:10	Chouser	...if you want more details.
09:10	gerryxiao	how to make ant create a new dir to build another branch for clojure?
09:10	gerryxiao	ok
09:10	gerryxiao	yes, i can't find any docs about it
09:11	Chouser	I dunno. If I want different builds of clojure, I usually just check out a whole new local repo.
09:11	Chouser	maybe there's a better way I don't know about.
09:11	gerryxiao	it should work, but i have to change clj script
09:12	Chouser	yeah, the clj script I use allows aliases, so I can run clj or clj-1.0
09:12	Chouser	but it's a bit of a pain to set up, so I haven't published it anywhere.
09:13	gerryxiao	that's problem of git?
09:13	Chouser	hm, dunno.
09:13	gerryxiao	when will 1.1 be released?
09:15	Chouser	there's no firm date. I think once the reify a.k.a. "new new" is finished, you can expect a 1.1 release.
09:16	gerryxiao	i have only one clojure git local copy, if i want another builds, just check it out and rebuilt it with ant
09:17	Chouser	sure. if you want to keep both, the only way I know is to git clone a new local copy
09:26	gerryxiao	i use Math/round in clojure, but complier complain it can't be resolved
09:28	Chouser	can take float or double, so tell it which, such as (Math/round (double x))
09:28	ambient	try (Math/round (double 5.6))
09:29	ambient	hmm, does this work
09:29	ambient	,(Math/round (double 5.6))
09:29	clojurebot	6
09:29	gerryxiao	i used (Math/round ( * 3 (float 4)))
09:30	Chouser	ambient: sure. But with a literal like that it's not needed.
09:30	gerryxiao	so i have to :(Math/round (float (* 3 (float 4))))?
09:30	Chouser	ambient: Clojure reads 5.6 as a Double, so it knows to generate a call with a double arg.
09:31	ambient	k
09:31	Chouser	gerryxiao: you don't actually have literals there, do you? But this will work: (Math/round (double (* 3 4.0)))
09:32	gerryxiao	Chouser: that's just one example, my code is like that
09:32	gerryxiao	i think clojure should figure it out
09:33	Chouser	gerryxiao: it does. You only need those casts if you're trying to avoid runtime reflection.
09:33	Chouser	those compiler complaints are only warnings -- it'll run fine.
09:33	gerryxiao	ok
09:35	gerryxiao	clojure need one good way for type hints
09:35	Chouser	and in real code even if you want to avoid reflection you can usually put a few hints or casts on some args or locals and be done, rather that repeating them in the body of the code.
09:36	Fossi	namespace whoes
09:36	ambient	i don't really completely get clojure namespaces either
09:37	Fossi	i thought my files are getting a little big, so i tried to refer some things
09:37	gerryxiao	sometimes, i have to repeat type hints
09:37	Fossi	but apparently i don't get ut either :)
09:38	Chouser	Fossi: 'refer' is hardly ever used anymore.
09:38	Fossi	Chouser: but 'load' is ugly :(
09:38	Chouser	Fossi: if you want multiple files for one namespace, use 'load'
09:38	gerryxiao	it seems hints in let block not work sometimes
09:39	Chouser	Fossi: if you want multiple namespaces, use 'use' or 'require'
09:39	Fossi	i want multiple files for one namespace
09:40	Fossi	for example, load wants to load auto-mail.clj
09:40	Fossi	but the rest of clojure wants me to name it auto_mail
09:40	gerryxiao	does newnew fast than proxy?
09:41	gerryxiao	why in-ns not support :use :import?
09:41	Fossi	and if i use load, the file compiles, but the symbol don't seem to be "imported"
09:41	Fossi	ah. i guess i can't use another namespace then in the other file
09:42	Chouser	gerryxiao: I would be very surprised if hints on 'let' names sometimes fails. got an example?
09:43	Chouser	Fossi: dashes in file names aren't really supported, because of Java naming rules. I'd try naming the file "auto_mail.clj" and then calling (load "auto_mail")
09:43	Chouser	gerryxiao: yes, newnew is faster than proxy
09:43	Fossi	dashes in filenames are all over the place
09:43	ol3	(doc circle)
09:43	clojurebot	Excuse me?
09:43	ol3	(doc circel)
09:43	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
09:44	gerryxiao	in my code, in let block [g2d #^Graphics2D g] (doseq [x y] (.drawString g2d ....))
09:44	gerryxiao	i got .drawString not resolved
09:44	Chouser	gerryxiao: try (let [#^Graphics2D g2d g] ...)
09:44	Fossi	that has nothing to do with the type hint
09:45	Chouser	gerryxiao: so that you're hinting the name an not the value.
09:45	Chouser	Fossi: "all over the place"?
09:45	Fossi	Chouser: well, half of clojure-contrib has them
09:46	Chouser	Fossi: nope. namespace names, sure, but no dashes in file names
09:46	gerryxiao	g2d #^Graphics2D g is change g to Graphics2d
09:46	gerryxiao	type cast
09:46	gerryxiao	right?
09:46	liwp	gerryxiao: yes, but g2d is still of type Object
09:47	liwp	with [#^Graphics2d g2d ...] you've type hinted g2d as of type Graphics2d
09:47	gerryxiao	so i have type #^Graphics2D twice?
09:47	Chouser	actually, that's not the problem
09:47	Chouser	Sorry, I mislead.
09:48	liwp	gerryxiao: no, just once
09:48	Chouser	It's more likely the args to .drawString -- there may be multiple methods, so you'd have to hint one or more of the args as well, if you want to avoid reflection.
09:48	Chouser	again, reflection isn't the end of the world, it's just a runtime performance hit.
09:49	Fossi	"gerryxiao: i got .drawString not resolved" sounds to me as if you call it with the wrong parameters anyway
09:49	gerryxiao	Chouser, yes, drawString have many overide methods, and it's in Graphics
09:49	Fossi	afaik things should work without any cast
09:49	gerryxiao	that's Graphics2D supper class
09:49	Fossi	(but a little slower)
09:50	gerryxiao	Fossi: no, if parameter is wrong, i will get error not warning
09:51	Fossi	ok, i thought it was an error
09:52	Fossi	Chouser: sorry, i misread
09:52	Fossi	but still, it's ugly to have to load "auto_mail" if i would use "auto-mail"
09:52	gerryxiao	yes, it works without type hints
09:53	Chouser	Fossi: if you're using 'load', I don't think you'd ever mention 'auto-mail'.
09:53	ol3	(doc cycle)
09:53	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
09:53	ol3	clojurebot: thanks
09:53	clojurebot	Pardon?
09:53	Fossi	and it's ugly that ns :load etc don't have the same semantics as load etc
09:53	Fossi	Chouser: can i still define a namespace in the other file?
09:54	Fossi	or do i have to use require and use directly?
09:54	Chouser	a new namespace?
09:54	gerryxiao	i want in-ns support :use :import
09:54	Fossi	point is, i might want to use some of these files diretly as well
09:54	Chouser	if the other file defines a new namespace, it should do so using 'ns' and :use/:require. Then your current file can use :use/:require instead of load.
09:55	gerryxiao	i have to use :use :import only in one file
09:55	Fossi	i have foo which wants to use 'service' which is a bunch of services
09:55	gerryxiao	i don't want use (use ) (import)
09:56	Fossi	so i thought i'd :refer auto-mail and other services into a bigger namespace
09:56	hchbaw	Fossi: actually, clj/core.clj does (load "core_proxy") and such.
09:56	Fossi	for a bar, i might refer some other things as 'service' later on
09:56	gerryxiao	first file main.clj (ns www.dfj.com (:use ..) (:import) ...)
09:57	Fossi	hchbaw: i didn't say it doesn't work, i just think it's ugly :)
09:57	hchbaw	Oh, sorry :)
09:57	gerryxiao	second file helper.clj (in-ns www.defj.com ) (import ...) ) ???
09:57	Fossi	hchbaw: you wrote the fuzzy-complete, right?
09:58	hchbaw	Fossi: yes, almost copied from the original CL implementation.
09:58	Fossi	gerryxiao: normally, i put it in another namespace and use that from main.clj
09:58	liwp	gerryxiao: can't you use the (ns) macro in your file which does support :use etc.?
09:59	Fossi	hchbaw: almost works here now. it's a little weird what symbols it can complete and which not
09:59	liwp	,(ns foo (:use bar))
09:59	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate bar__init.class or bar.clj on classpath:
09:59	Fossi	hchbaw: i guess it's best used with hippie-complete
09:59	liwp	,`(ns foo (:use bar))
09:59	clojurebot	(clojure.core/ns sandbox/foo (:use sandbox/bar))
09:59	Chouser	It's not recommended to use 'ns' for the same namespace in more than one place.
09:59	liwp	ahh, I missed that bit of the problem
10:00	liwp	how do I get the macro expansion out of clojurebot?
10:00	liwp	,(macroexpand (ns foo (:use bar)))
10:00	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate bar__init.class or bar.clj on classpath:
10:01	liwp	,(macroexpand '(ns foo (:use bar)))
10:01	clojurebot	(do (clojure.core/in-ns (quote foo)) (clojure.core/with-loading-context (clojure.core/refer (quote clojure.core)) (clojure.core/use (quote bar))))
10:01	Fossi	i wish use would support [namespace class class2]
10:01	liwp	Chouser: so why shouldn't one use (ns) for the same namespace from more than one file?
10:02	liwp	is it that with-loading-context bit that causes problems? Or possibly refer 'clojure.core?
10:03	Chouser	liwp: well, it mostly works. :refer-clojure wouldn't do what you expect, but other than that I think it's about maintaining a clear difference between the controlling and controlled files.
10:03	liwp	ok
10:04	liwp	I was just thinking that in the repl you would do (in-ns 'foo) and then def a bunch of stuff which is sort of the same thing as using (ns) with the same namespace in multiple files...
10:04	liwp	but apparently not exactly the same thing looking at the expansion of (ns)
10:07	ol3	hello, is it possible to escape from an doseq form, or should i use something like every?
10:08	Chouser	ol3: other than :while clauses, there's no escape.
10:09	ol3	hm
10:11	ol3	(every? (fn [item] (do-something-with-item) (if (continue?) true false)) seq)
10:12	Chouser	ol3: hm... I guess you could do all that in a :while clause
10:12	ambient	does there exist a list anywhere, of all the features and keybindings of clojure-mode for emacs?
10:12	ambient	or is it simply all in the clojure-mode.el file?
10:13	stuartsierra	ambient: Type "C-h m" in a clojure-mode buffer
10:13	Chouser	cgrand: I can't forget -- every time one gets a feature, I end up porting it to the other!
10:14	ambient	stuartsierra that does nothing
10:14	cgrand	"doseq, a sisyphean drama"
10:15	ambient	weird, C-h m works in repl, but not in file buffer
10:15	stuartsierra	ambient: hmm, I dunno, that's the standard describe-mode command in Emacs
10:19	Fossi	ok, i got load to work. i still think it's an ugly solution
10:20	Fossi	why is refer 'deprecated'?
10:20	Fossi	it seems like the cleaner way of doing this
10:20	Chouser	it's not deperecated, it's just usually used via 'use' instead of on its own.
10:21	Fossi	well, use doesn't do what i want
10:21	ambient	is there a way to load a java library to the repl that is not in the classpath?
10:21	ambient	like (load-jar "swt.jar")
10:21	Fossi	i want to smash multiple namespaces together
10:23	Chouser	Fossi: 'use' does a 'load' and then a 'refer'
10:23	stuartsierra	ambient: there is add-to-classpath, but it does not work in all situations and is vaguely deprecated
10:23	Chouser	'refer' by itself doesn't do anything with files -- won't load a new one.
10:23	Fossi	hmmm. so i can call function from other namespaces in that one then?
10:23	Fossi	i thought that was what refer does
10:25	Fossi	(ns foo (:use some.service :as service)) (service/baz) - ( (ns some.service (:refer service-part)) - (ns service-part) (defn baz)
10:26	Fossi	would that work?
10:27	Chouser	that would work, though baz would not be visible in foo (using neither 'use' nor 'refer')
10:27	Chouser	oh
10:27	Chouser	sorry, wait.
10:28	Chouser	no, service/baz would not work
10:29	Fossi	hmm. too bad.
10:31	Fossi	hmmm. if i load a file then, how do i call functions of the namespace i'm being loaded into?
10:31	Fossi	or can i require it as well?
10:31	Fossi	ah, this is ugly
10:31	Chouser	some.service could say (def baz service-part/baz) to make it available to users of some.service.
10:31	Fossi	i need to find some other way
10:32	Fossi	thanks for the help so far though
10:57	ambient	this is pretty cool http://travis-whitton.blogspot.com/2009/09/hot-code-swapping-with-clojure.html
10:59	Chouser	reloading a lib is not atomic
10:59	ambient	yeah that part seemed pure conjecture for me too
11:01	ambient	how would one go about making lib reloading atomic?
11:02	ambient	100% written with clojure?
11:03	Chouser	ambient: maybe try to load everything into a new namespace and then do a CAS swap somehow.
11:20	ol3	Is it possible to get a sequence of all threads?
11:21	Chouser	,(keys (Thread/getAllStackTraces))
11:21	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getStackTrace)
11:21	Chouser	well, that'll work outside a sandbox
11:22	tmountain	hey guys, I wrote that blog post above, I'll update it to indicate that reloading isn't atomic
11:23	ol3	Chouser: cool thanks
11:24	Chouser	tmountain: sounds good. Depending on the change you're loading, it may not matter.
11:25	Chouser	tmountain: each def (and defn) is atomic, so you won't load a half-redefined function, but if your change is in two different defn's, and those changes rely on each other, you could potentially have problems.
11:25	tmountain	Chouser: ok, good to know. I will include that in my update.
11:25	Chouser	thanks! nice post, btw. :-)
11:27	tmountain	thanks, Clojure is just too much fun!
11:28	ambient	im still having trouble in getting all the edged smoothed out in my development process :/
11:29	ambient	netbeans is bad at building simple one-file test projects and emacs takes time to get used to
11:30	cemerick	ambient: are you using enclojure?
11:31	ambient	i tried it but had trouble managing the files in my project and connecting the repl to the files
11:32	ambient	seems there's no proper getting started for any IDE, which would explain the whole development process so it's all diving into the deep end of the pool no matter what i try
11:32	cemerick	You should just be able to right click on your project, and start a repl for it.
11:32	stuartsierra	ambient: I recommend you first get comfortable configuring your project, classpath, REPL, etc. at the command line.
11:32	stuartsierra	Then tackle the IDE integration, you'll find it much easier.
11:33	ambient	yeah, seems that's the only way to truly get it
11:33	cemerick	stuartsierra: is that sort of like "learn math with a pencil, then use the calculator"?
11:33	stuartsierra	cemerick: yes. Or like "learn assembly, then write C"
11:34	stuartsierra	Although I never really learned assembly.
11:34	ambient	i know both and would just stay with idiomatic K&R C first
11:34	cemerick	and I never really learned C (though I did plenty of damage with it :-P )
11:35	ambient	perhaps more appropriate analogy would be to buy a ball before you start playing football
11:35	ambient	otherwise you're just kicking around on empty air
11:35	ambient	..hoping to hit something
11:41	raphinou	hi, any vimclojure user here?
11:49	stuartsierra	More Maven-fu, setting up your own public repository: http://stuartsierra.com/2009/09/08/run-your-own-maven-repository
11:52	tmountain	raphinou: me
11:53	raphinou	tmountain: I have installed it successfully (I think: syntax coloring works, I can call a repl manually), but the mappings are not working.
11:53	AWizzArd	Oh funny, I found a bug in Suns regex code.
11:53	AWizzArd	,(re-find #"(a)?123\|x" "xyz")
11:53	clojurebot	["x" nil]
11:53	AWizzArd	,(re-find #"(a)?1234\|x" "xyz")
11:53	clojurebot	nil
11:54	AWizzArd	It's already submitted to Sun.
11:54	ol3	is it ok to construct a lazy-sequence which values depend on a ref, or is this too clever?
11:55	AWizzArd	Perl, clppcre and Co perform correctly.
11:55	tmountain	raphinou: did you define maplocalleader?
11:55	tmountain	raphinou: let maplocalleader = "," (in your vimrc)
11:56	raphinou	tmountain: not currently. tried it this morning but without success.
11:56	raphinou	I'll try again for 100% security
11:56	tmountain	raphinou: did you confirm nailgun was running?
11:56	raphinou	yes, laingun is fine, and its classpath ok
11:57	tmountain	raphinou: I've found it can be slightly challenging to get it setup, but once it's working, you'll love it
11:58	raphinou	when I press the , the screen flashes, which doesn't happen when I have a mapping defined
11:58	raphinou	tmountain: yes, that's why I'm still trying :-)
12:01	tmountain	raphinou: do you have let vimclojure#NailgunClient = "/your/path/vimclojure/ng" and let clj_want_gorilla = 1 ?
12:02	raphinou	tmountain: yes, as explained on the website and the doc
12:02	raphinou	I think the problem is more that the mappings are not available. Don't know how that comes
12:05	tmountain	raphinou: they're sourced from clojure.vim (loaded from ~/.vim/ftplugin/clojure.vim)
12:06	tmountain	raphinou: if you search that file for "vimclojure_namespace", you'll see their definitions
12:07	raphinou	tmountain: yes. But I suspect not everything is loaded correctly. the function vimclojure#EvalLine is defined and I can call it, but it gives errors: Undefined variable: b:vimclojure_namespace
12:08	tmountain	raphinou: the definitions are provided via ~/.vim/autoload/vimclojure.vim. it sounds as if that file isn't being sourced properly
12:11	tmountain	raphinou: what happens if you start vim on a new empty clojure file (i.e., vim new.clj) and then type ,sr ?
12:12	raphinou	tmountain: starts fine with syntax highlighting ok
12:12	raphinou	no error messages
12:13	raphinou	and filetype detexted is clojure
12:14	tmountain	does it start a repl, or no?
12:15	raphinou	tmountain: no
12:18	tmountain	raphinou: what operating system?
12:18	raphinou	debian linux, vim 7.1
12:19	tmountain	raphinou: what's the output of ps aux \| grep -i nail ?
12:20	hamza	hey guys, is there a revers of assoc for vectors? instead of using subvec to remove an item at a specified index. the doc dissoc does not say it is suitable for vectors?
12:24	raphinou	tmountain: martiansoftware on 127.0.0.1
12:30	tmountain	raphinou: start vim once more on a new file (i.e., foo.clj) and try this - :call vimclojure#Repl.New()
12:32	raphinou	tmountain: I'm restarting everything from scratch now (clean environment, etc)
12:33	tmountain	raphinou: ok, if you still have issues, try the previous suggestion to determine whether vim can talk to nailgun
12:34	raphinou	tmounain: ok, repl is there now, but I don't know why it started working as it's before I restarted from scratch :(
12:36	raphinou	tmountain: still issues when opening existing file, but it's a problems with classpath. I'll investigate further. Thanks for your help!
12:38	tmountain	raphinou: no problem, best of luck
12:38	tmountain	raphinou: try opening a file without a namespace at the top, and I bet it works
12:39	raphinou	tmountain: you're right
12:40	raphinou	any idea how to fix this?
12:40	raphinou	but the mappings still arent there though :(
12:42	tmountain	raphinou: the namespace thing is a classpath issue
12:43	tmountain	basically the file has to be part of nailgun's classpath
12:43	tmountain	not your local shell classpath
12:44	raphinou	tmountain: classpath (for nail server and the vim I start) contains base directory of the clojure file's namespace
12:45	raphinou	tmountain: ok, it was the classpath env variabels that was not exported I think....
12:46	tmountain	raphinou: yeah, it's pretty finicky
12:46	raphinou	tmountain: it's working at last! wow
12:47	tmountain	raphinou: awesome ;-)
12:47	raphinou	thanks a bunch for you help! No I'll be able to see if it was worth the effort as you said :-)
12:47	raphinou	s/No/Now/
12:47	tmountain	it's great tool for developing without leaving your editor
12:48	tmountain	just eval a form, go into a repl, test, etc...
12:48	raphinou	yes. I already remember the evaluate line mapping :-)
12:48	raphinou	just in time as I need to go now. See you later, bye!
13:17	ambient	i find this curious: if i have music.clj and namespace foo.bar.music, and i want to extend to foo.bar.music.one and foo.bar.music.two i have to destroy music.clj, create music directory and create one and two.clj into that dir?
13:18	Chouser	you can have foo/bar/music.clj and foo/bar/music/one.clj
13:18	Chouser	for foo.bar.music and foo.bar.music.one respectively.
13:18	ambient	oh ok :)
13:49	Fossi	what was the idiom again for turning [[1 2] [1 2]] into [[1 1] [2 2]]?
13:50	Fossi	ah, interleave
13:50	Fossi	hmm. almost
13:50	Fossi	;)
13:52	Fossi	anything better than (partition 2 (apply interleave [[1 2] [1 2]]))?
13:54	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: about clojure.contrib.profile, I may have found a bug. When you have (defn foo [x] (prof :foo (+ x 10))) and then do (profile (map foo (range 5))) ==> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$max
13:54	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
13:54	clojurebot	max people is 164
13:56	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: but (profile (doseq [i (range 5)] (foo i))) works fine.
14:00	Fossi	actually, the solution to my problem is (let [foo (apply interleave [[[10] [20]] [[11] [21]] [[12] [22]]])] (split-at (/ (count foo) 2) foo)) :)
14:00	Fossi	but i bet there is a nicer way
14:02	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: ok I'll take a look. Could you file an Assembla ticket?
14:35	stuartsierra	Anybody have a link for the slides (not video) to rhickey's talk "Clojure for Java Programmers"?
14:35	Chouser	,(apply map vector [[1 2] [1 2]])
14:35	clojurebot	([1 1] [2 2])
14:39	stuartsierra	ah, found it on the Group Files page.
14:43	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: I need an account on Assembla to open a ticket, yes?
14:43	Chouser	AWizzArd: no, just use the "support" tab
14:43	AWizzArd	ok good, thx
14:47	AWizzArd	Chouser: hmm, on http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure-contrib/support/tickets it tells me "You must login or register to submit a support ticket".
14:48	AWizzArd	I will try a BugMeNot account
14:49	Chouser	hm, I wonder if that changed at some point. I guess you need an assembla account, but no special permissions.
14:50	LauJensen	Did we decide what a Clojure programmer is called? Clojurist? Clojurian ? Clabango?
14:52	stuartsierra	Cluje
14:52	drewr	LauJensen: "Clojure programmer"
14:53	stuartsierra	"Smug Java Weenie"
14:53	drewr	a "clojurian" is someone who sits around trying to think about what to call clojure programmers :-)
14:53	LauJensen	noobs :)
14:55	Chouser	Clojurian
14:56	Chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-10-17.html#08:26b
14:59	Chouser	also: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/313989/-z_programming_languages_clojure?pp=3
14:59	LauJensen	Its settled and documented :)
15:01	LauJensen	Perfect reference, thank you Mr. Chouser sir
15:02	Chousuke	Clabango :D
15:02	Chousuke	Maybe that could be used as the title of an experienced Clojurian.
15:03	LauJensen	Chousuke: No, its just something rhickey exclaims when he hands you your black belt
15:07	hiredman	~suddenly rhickey hands you a belt made of fine black italian leather!
15:07	clojurebot	CLABANGO!
15:07	LauJensen	hehe
15:09	manic12	does clojure have a test library?
15:09	Chousuke	clojure.test if you're using master, contrib.test-is if 1.0
15:10	manic12	ok, I'll have to try it on this arm9 that clojure seems to run on
15:10	Chousuke	note that if you're using 1.0 you need the 1.0-compatible branch of contrib
15:10	manic12	is 1.0 the newer?
15:11	stuartsierra	1.0 is the official release; Git master is current development, like SVN trunk
15:11	manic12	ok
15:12	manic12	with all the concurrency stuff, a 200mhz arm board is probably a boring target
15:12	Chousuke	heh.
15:12	Chousuke	well, it'll be an interesting experiment nonetheless
15:12	Chousuke	to see what happens :P
15:13	manic12	it works so far
15:17	manic12	am i supposed to git test-is or is there a tar.gz or bz2 somewhere?
15:17	technomancy	the 1.0 release is a tarbomb IIRC, so watch out.
15:17	stuartsierra	manic12: test-is can be found in the "clojure-1.0-compatible" branch of Clojure-contrib.
15:18	stuartsierra	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib
15:20	manic12	for my workstation I do prefer git, but for this arm board, if I could find where that 1.0-compatible tarball is, it would be useful
15:20	manic12	I guess I could make one
15:20	stuartsierra	there is no tarball
15:21	hiredman	you can download the branch as a tarball from github
15:21	stuartsierra	ture
15:21	stuartsierra	true
15:22	hiredman	actually
15:22	hiredman	can you?, I don't see a way to do that anymore
15:22	manic12	anybody know the git clone repository name for the 1.0 compatible contribs?
15:24	Chousuke	manic12: it's in the contrib repo
15:24	Chousuke	you clone it, then just checkout the master branch in your clone.
15:24	Chousuke	er
15:24	Chouser	http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/tarball/clojure-1.0-compatible
15:24	Chousuke	the compatible branch of course.
15:24	Chouser	that's the tarball link
15:24	Chousuke	or you can do that I guess :)
15:25	manic12	thx
15:34	manic12	it takes about 30 seconds from the time you start clojure till the time the user=> prompt shows up on this computer
15:40	hiredman	the jvm startup times can be painful
15:40	hiredman	(but is five seconds or less here)
15:43	ambient	how can i generate character frequencies from a string into a map?
15:44	ambient	should i just write loop/recur?
15:45	hiredman	sounds like reduce
15:46	hiredman	,(let [+i (fn [n] (inc (or n 0)))] (reduce #(update-in % [%2] +i) (seq "foo bar baz"))
15:46	clojurebot	EOF while reading
15:47	hiredman	,(let [+i (fn [n] (inc (or n 0)))] (reduce #(update-in % [%2] +i) (seq "foo bar baz")))
15:47	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
15:47	hiredman	,(let [+i (fn [n] (inc (or n 0)))] (reduce #(update-in % [%2] +i) {} (seq "foo bar baz")))
15:47	clojurebot	{\z 1, \r 1, \a 2, \b 2, \space 2, \o 2, \f 1}
15:47	manic12	hiredman: jamvm actually, not jvm in this case
15:47	hiredman	manic12: jamvm is a jvm :P
15:48	Chouser	,(reduce #(assoc % %2 (inc (% %2 0))) {} "foo bar baz")
15:48	clojurebot	{\z 1, \r 1, \a 2, \b 2, \space 2, \o 2, \f 1}
15:49	ambient	ok, ty.
15:49	hiredman	Chouser: cute
15:49	hiredman	(% %2 0)
15:49	Chouser	heh
15:50	Chouser	its meaning is obvious, right?
15:50	hiredman	sure sure
15:50	ambient	you're using the key as a function?
15:50	hiredman	"obvious"
15:50	Chouser	the map as a function.
15:50	Chouser	could say (get % %2 0)
15:50	Chouser	and waste 4 chars
15:50	hiredman	that might be a little more clear
15:51	ambient	well i still need to think about that. functional style programming is just very slowly absorbing information for me
15:52	ambient	somehow it's a lot easier with scheme because it has so few core operations
15:53	ambient	i think almost all my functions exploited some kind of tail recursion, now that i can't do it, i miss it
15:54	stuartsierra	ambient: you can still do tail recursion with loop/recur
15:54	ambient	yes, but that's not the same :)
15:56	stuartsierra	Usually it is. Writing recur in a function without an enclosing loop is the same as a tail recursive call in Scheme.
15:56	stuartsierra	Clojure is just a little more restrictive regarding the definition of "tail position."
15:57	Chouser	,(-> [a b] (fn (assoc a b (-> b (a 0) inc))) (reduce {} "foo bar baz"))
15:57	clojurebot	{\z 1, \r 1, \a 2, \b 2, \space 2, \o 2, \f 1}
15:57	ambient	yes, it might be the same semantically but i can wrap my head around scheme's way of doing things a lot better
15:57	Chouser	there, that should clear things up
16:00	ambient	now priority queue... this will be harder
16:01	manic12	is there an apropos?
16:01	Chouser	ambient: I've got most of a priority queue working, built on finger trees.
16:02	ambient	idk, maybe i could use sorted map
16:02	Chouser	manic12: (find-doc "find-doc")
16:02	ambient	Chouser cool
16:02	ambient	i hope you blog about them that the rest of us mortals can comprehend ;)
16:02	hiredman	,(pl (↕reduce "foo bar baz" {} λab (assoc a b (inc · a b 0 ))))
16:02	Chouser	ambient: so as long as you don't need it for a week or so, you can probably just wait 'til I'm done and then use it.
16:02	clojurebot	{\z 1, \r 1, \a 2, \b 2, \space 2, \o 2, \f 1}
16:03	ambient	i spy lambda with my little eye
16:04	ambient	clojure character support is more than ASCII?
16:05	stuartsierra	ambient: yes, it supports anything Java supports, so at least UTF-8.
16:05	hiredman	utf8
16:05	ambient	that's nice, and weird :)
16:05	stuartsierra	Not all editors play nice with UTF-8, though.
16:05	ambient	and not all fonts
16:05	hiredman	:/
16:05	hiredman	clojurebot: the man?
16:05	clojurebot	☝(^_^)☝
16:05	duck1123	and those shall not be talked about
16:06	ambient	you made me switch to dejavu sans mono :\|
16:06	hiredman	yeah
16:07	hiredman	dejavu sans mono has the best coverage of any fixed width font I've tried
16:07	duck1123	I wonder how crazy a clojure minifier could get. I'm sure you could do some crazy tricks
16:07	ambient	but i want to use my old MS-DOS fonts :(
16:07	ambient	borland turbo c, oh yeah
16:08	ambient	duck1123 APL is pretty sweet in that regard
16:10	ambient	which will be never
16:10	duck1123	you don't think it'll happen?
16:10	Chouser	of course it will happen
16:11	ambient	if you mean using clojure to write javascript then, yeah
16:11	duck1123	I was talking more about clojurescript
16:13	Chouser	quite a lot was working there for a while -- persistent vectors, maps, destructuring, macros, dynamic binding, for, loop/recur, ...
16:13	Chouser	probably still works if you don't mind that it's pre-1.0 clojure. :-/
16:14	ambient	well im looking at this: http://code.google.com/p/jc-pheap/ atm
16:14	hiredman	maybe clojurebot should export its brain as a set of rdf triples
16:15	duck1123	I would like to be able to include a certain javascript library and have it load any text/clojurescript script elements and executes them
16:15	duck1123	hiredman: yes please
16:15	hiredman	I'd have to learn how to do that
16:16	duck1123	I've got some old Jena/clojure code in my archives that I threw out
16:16	duck1123	I could dig them out and paste them if you want, but i think someone did a library
16:17	Chouser	rhickey did a library
16:17	stuartsierra	I did too
16:17	duck1123	I gave up on actual rdf parsers/libraries when I decided to fake it
17:13	drewr	stuartsierra: do you have a way to tie in custom deserialization in c.c.json.read?
17:20	stuartsierra	not sure what you mean
17:21	stuartsierra	It just reads JSON. You can't extend its idea of what valid JSON is, if that's what you mean.
17:23	drewr	I'd like to have a fn called on a value after it's deserialized
17:24	stuartsierra	Like a callback? No, it doesn't do that.
17:24	drewr	wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something
17:24	stuartsierra	Just call the function directly on the deserialized object.
17:26	stuartsierra	It's not a streaming parser, some Java libraries do that.
17:30	drewr	ok, so I'd like to traverse my resulting object and convert all the Longs to Dates, trying to use walk to do it
17:30	drewr	what's wrong with this?
17:30	drewr	(walk #(if (= % "bar") :bar_was_here %) identity {:foo "bar"})
17:30	drewr	=> {:foo "bar"}
17:31	stuartsierra	don't call walk directly, use prewalk or postwalk
17:32	drewr	ah, thanks
17:33	stuartsierra	user> (prewalk #(if (= % "bar") :bar_was_here %) {:foo "bar"})
17:33	stuartsierra	{:foo :bar_was_here}
17:33	clojurebot	foo is is Short, Self Contained, Correct (Compilable), Example http://sscce.org/
17:34	hiredman	clojurebot: what is wrong with you?
17:34	clojurebot	Roger.
17:36	lowlycoder	has anyone written a 3d opengl game using clojure? the jogl/jni calls are really hurting me right now
17:36	stuartsierra	there are 2 JOGL wrappers in Clojure; look on the mailing list
17:36	stuartsierra	I think they're still findable there
17:41	LauJensen	I'm doing a post on PHP (typical webdev) vs Cloure/Servlets, anybody that can find 5 minz to skim, just to see if I touched on the most important stuff?
17:46	unlink	Am I missing out on a more obvious way of doing this? (reduce (fn [acc x] (assoc acc x (inc (get acc x 0)))) {} coll)
17:49	hiredman	,(pl (↕reduce "foo bar baz" {} λab (assoc a b (inc · a b 0 ))))
17:49	clojurebot	{\z 1, \r 1, \a 2, \b 2, \space 2, \o 2, \f 1}
17:49	Chouser	that looks familiar
17:49	hiredman	Chouser: yeah, almost like you could have written it…
18:15	ambient	Chouser got that finger tree source code lying anywhere on the web?
18:15	ambient	*laying around
18:20	Chouser	ambient: http://github.com/Chouser/finger-tree
18:21	Chouser	not yet alpha, but it is what it is.
18:21	ambient	well it looks heave, something for me to parse while i listen to trance
18:22	ambient	*heavy
18:22	Chouser	heh
18:22	Chouser	oh, it needs the newnew branch of clojure
18:23	hiredman	(reify)
18:50	jbell	hey guys, can anyone show me how to make a powerset function in clojure?
18:55	Chousuke	hmm
18:55	Chousuke	(doc reductions)
18:55	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f init coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init."
18:55	Chouser	~google clojure powerset
18:55	Chousuke	damn, no namespace.
18:55	clojurebot	First, out of 5150 results is:
18:55	clojurebot	Cribbage points counter in Clojure « Occasionally sane
18:55	clojurebot	http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/cribbage-points-counter-in-clojure/
18:56	jbell	sure, I saw that, thanks.. is that the best way to do it? it's quite different from the lisp map way I'm used to
18:59	hiredman	someone must have use'ed that namespace
18:59	Chousuke	I thought about writing a powerset with reductions but it's not quite a powerset :P
18:59	Chousuke	,(reductions (fn [a b] (conj a b)) #{} [1 2 3 4])
18:59	clojurebot	(#{} #{1} #{1 2} #{1 2 3} #{1 2 3 4})
19:01	Chousuke	wait. why did I use that anonymous function.
19:03	jbell	is the reductions function/macro from another namespace?
19:03	Chousuke	I think it should be c.c.seq-utils
19:03	Chousuke	or something
19:03	jbell	cool, I'll try that
19:26	jbell	am I right to think that the clojure contrib 1.0.0 jar doesn't include seq-utils
19:26	jbell	?
19:26	hiredman	which "the"
19:27	hiredman	as far as I know there is no "the" clojure contrib jar
19:27	jbell	I got it packaged with enclojure
19:29	Chousuke	I'm not sure if I got the namespace right, even
19:29	hiredman	jbell: and what leads you to believe it does not include seq-utils?
19:29	Chousuke	~def reductions
19:31	jbell	thanks clojurebot
19:32	jbell	how do I get and compile the freshest version of contrib to have a jar in netbeans?
19:33	jbell	I expect I d/l from github, but then how do I compile it?
19:36	Chousuke	you can try without compiling first I suppose.
19:37	Chousuke	I mean, plain "ant" will give you a jar to use.
19:37	jbell	hmm, I think it's a maven project
19:37	Chousuke	if you actually want to compile (the pretty printer requires it) then you need to do ant -Dclojure.jar=/path/to/clojure.jar
19:38	Chousuke	and I can't give any IDE-specific advice /:
19:38	Chousuke	I don't use IDEs myself. besides emacs, which is actually the Borg
19:38	jbell	ahh right ok :)
19:38	jbell	I like vim, although I don't know how much more trouble I'd be in setting that up
19:39	Chousuke	in 50 years emacs will have become self-sufficient and develops itself through mind-washed coder drones
19:41	Chousuke	Actually, maybe that already has happened. :/
19:41	technomancy	Chousuke: I give it five years.
19:41	Chousuke	Chouser: that's what the emacs wants you to think!
19:42	Chousuke	it's a symbiotic relationship anyway
19:43	Chouser	Chousuke: emacs codes in you!?
19:43	Chousuke	emacs takes advantage of humans but in exchange we get... emacs.
19:46	Chousuke	I wonder what it would take to compile and run some ancient version of emacs.
19:46	Chousuke	I'm kind of interested in what it was like when it was young :P
19:47	Chousuke	but maybe later.
19:50	jbell	if you can sum up emacs and its significance to your coding I'd like to know it
19:51	technomancy	jbell: simple: it's trivial to modify your environment at-will during runtime.
19:51	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/115 <= sums it up in longer format
19:51	jbell	cool will look
19:52	technomancy	in interests of full disclosure
19:53	technomancy	damned if it isn't hard for me to type "closure" correctly these days
19:58	tomoj	technomancy: +1 on emacs-starter-kit working fine in aquamacs :)
19:58	tomoj	thanks bunches
19:58	technomancy	tomoj: great!
20:02	ambient	hmm, there's must be a better way of doing this (reduce #(conj % [(get %2 1) (get %2 0)]) (sorted-set) freqs)
20:05	arbscht	ambient: what is freqs and what is your code supposed to do?
20:05	ambient	freqs is character frequency map like {\a 2, \h 5, \m 1} etc
20:05	Chouser	(into (sorted-set) (map (comp vec reverse) freqs))
20:05	Chouser	dunno if that's better
20:06	Chouser	(into (sorted-set) (for [[k v] freqs] [v k]))
20:07	ambient	yeah, that's better :)
20:08	Chouser	(reduce (fn [s [k v]] (conj s [v k])) (sorted-set) freqs)
20:08	ambient	is that in any way better?
20:09	ambient	ah well.. time to construct the binary sequences
20:09	Chouser	(into (sorted-set) (map vector (vals freqs) (keys freqs)))
20:10	Chouser	so many ways to skin that particular cat. I guess I like the 'for' best so far.
20:10	ambient	yeah the first one is the most readable
20:10	ambient	with for
20:12	jbell	Chouser, how would you skin the powerset cat?
20:12	Chouser	Chousuke: had a nice one, didn't he?
20:13	Chouser	,(reductions conj #{} [1 2 3 4])
20:13	clojurebot	(#{} #{1} #{1 2} #{1 2 3} #{1 2 3 4})
20:13	Chouser	pretty hard to beat
20:14	jbell	lol, I've only just realised what clojurebot is
20:16	jbell	that one isn't powerset function though
20:17	jbell	if clojurebot is evaluating it correctly
20:17	Chouser	oh.
20:17	Chouser	oh, indeed.
20:18	Chouser	jbell: I posted a link. the first google hit for: clojure powerset is a blog post with a code snippet
20:19	jbell	sure, I saw that, I wondered if you had a better way to skin it :P
20:30	ambient	oh, there was frequencies already in seq-utils :)
20:33	nathanmarz	hey all
20:33	nathanmarz	looking at clojure core code
20:33	nathanmarz	why is reverse defined like this:
20:33	nathanmarz	(defn reverse
20:33	nathanmarz	"Returns a seq of the items in coll in reverse order. Not lazy."
20:33	nathanmarz	[coll]
20:33	nathanmarz	(reduce conj () coll))
20:34	nathanmarz	doesn't conj not guarantee where in the array things will get added?
20:35	rhickey_	nathanmarz: conjing onto a list puts things at the front, so walking one seq and building a list will reverse it
20:36	nathanmarz	ah right, cool
20:36	rhickey_	,(conj () 1 2 3)
20:36	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
20:37	rhickey_	,(conj [] 1 2 3)
20:37	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
20:42	Chouser	rhickey_: I'm currently using consLeft and consRight as method names for double-headed things. How does that strike you?
20:42	Chouser	for such a thing 'cons' would call consLeft, 'conj' would call consRight
20:43	hiredman	:/
20:43	hiredman	seems like it would be nice to be able to switch somehow from left conj to right conj
20:44	hiredman	IRightConj ILeftConj
20:45	Chouser	I tried to do that, but at least for finger-trees I couldn't find a way to switch from one way to the other in O(1) time.
20:45	hiredman	I see
20:45	rhickey_	Chouser: sounds ok
20:45	Chouser	the problem being when you concat a forward to a reversed tree.
20:51	Chouser	,((fn pset [c] (when-let [[f & r] c] (concat (map #(conj % f) (pset r)) (pset r) [#{f}]))) [1 2 3 4])
20:51	clojurebot	(#{1 2 3 4} #{1 2 4} #{1 2 3} #{1 3 4} #{1 4} #{1 3} #{1 2} #{2 3 4} #{2 4} #{2 3} #{3 4} #{4} #{3} #{2} #{1})
20:52	Chouser	that'll blow the stack for big input collections
20:52	clojurebot	for is not used enough
20:52	ambient	aw, i don't think there's sorted-set-by :(
20:52	ambient	i can't set the comparison function for sorted-set
20:53	Chouser	ambient: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/79
20:55	jbell	cool, that's more like what I wanted to do
21:00	jbell	Chouser: I just wanted to write a quick powerset function to test something out, so I was going for natural rather than efficient
21:01	Chouser	This is slightly better:
21:02	Chouser	,(letfn [(pset [[f & r :as c]] (when c (lazy-cat (map #(conj % f) (pset r)) (pset r) [#{f}])))] (pset [1 2 3 4]))
21:02	clojurebot	(#{1 2 3 4} #{1 2 4} #{1 2 3} #{1 3 4} #{1 4} #{1 3} #{1 2} #{2 3 4} #{2 4} #{2 3} #{3 4} #{4} #{3} #{2} #{1})
21:02	Chouser	using lazy-cat means it can give you the head of the seq faster.
21:02	hiredman	will that work with a list instead of a set?
21:02	Chouser	yes
21:03	Chouser	just use (list f) instead of #{f}
21:03	Chouser	or [f]
21:07	jbell	I was really intrigued when Rich said about how you could do aspect/context programming by dynamically binding the functions, but my attempt failed, and I couldn't find anything online
21:07	hiredman	failed how?
21:09	jbell	I tried to use let to bind the function in context, I think I know now... you use letfn?
21:09	hiredman	now
21:09	hiredman	no
21:09	arbscht	,(doc binding)
21:09	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before."
21:09	hiredman	well, you can use let to bind a name to something else in a lexical scope
21:10	hiredman	but you most likely want dynamic scope, which would use binding
21:13	jbell	great thanks
21:14	hiredman	woa
21:14	hiredman	what is this?
21:15	jbell	does anyone else think that 'cross-cutting concerns' isn't a great name for aspects covered by AspectJ?
21:16	hiredman	rhickey is going to be on the MS campus next week, according to twitter
21:20	hiredman	rhickey: is this true?
21:25	jbell	I guess I won't have to care anymore lol
21:26	jbell	Chouser: why would you want the head of the seq faster?
21:28	Chouser	why not?
21:29	Chouser	it helps if you only need the first few items, or if you're going to process the seq in parallel with something else such as with pmap or seque
21:30	jbell	right, so is pset utilising that change?
21:30	jbell	sorry...
21:30	jbell	that was nonsense lol
21:30	Chouser	oh, good. I couldn't understand. :-)
21:30	jbell	lol, I saw p for parallel
21:30	Chouser	ah!
21:31	Chouser	yeah, sorry, bad abbreviation.
21:31	Chouser	Chousuke should have slapped me.
21:32	jbell	I just couldn't see how in this algorithm getting the head faster would make any improvement. I haven't analysed it very much, though
21:32	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to make sure everyone uses good abbreviations?
21:32	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
21:32	hiredman	:/
21:32	Chouser	clojurebot: whose job?
21:32	clojurebot	whose job is it to make sure everyone uses good abbreviations
21:33	hiredman	something is broken
21:33	hiredman	sigh
21:33	Chouser	Who's on first.
21:33	Chouser	jbell: it's just lazy-cat vs. concat.
21:33	Chouser	jbell: concat is a fn, so all its args are evaluated up front, even if don't need the later items until later
21:34	Chouser	jbell: lazy-cat is a macro, and it delays evalling the args until they're needed.
21:34	Chouser	not a big deal under most use cases.
21:36	Chouser	rhickey has no comment on the MS visit. :-)
21:40	duck1123	is it possible to use flymake with clojure
21:47	Chouser	,(inc nil)
21:47	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
21:48	Chouser	,(first (map inc (list 0 1 2 nil)))
21:48	clojurebot	1
21:48	Chouser	map is lazy!
21:50	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to make sure everyone uses good abbreviations?
21:50	clojurebot	that's hiredman's job
21:50	hiredman	:(
21:51	jbell	I like clojure bot... not for that reason!
21:51	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to like clojurebot?
21:51	clojurebot	that's metric's job
21:53	jbell	clojurebot: does metric like you though?
21:53	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:54	hiredman	~scala ((x: Int) => x + 1)(2)
21:54	clojurebot	Int = 3
21:56	jbell	clojurebot: metric vous aime, clojurebot?
21:56	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:56	jbell	he only pretends he knows french.
21:56	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to deal with french?
21:56	clojurebot	that's albino's job
21:57	Chouser	it could pick names in proportion to how often the talk
21:57	hiredman	yeah, which would require collecting stats, which it should do
21:58	duck1123	it would be funny if you had clojurebot open a ticket somewhere whenever that happens
21:58	duck1123	not in a real ticketing system, however
21:59	hiredman	~ticket #1
21:59	clojurebot	{:url http://tinyurl.com/ntftnj, :summary "Add chunk support to map filter et al", :status :test, :priority :normal, :created-on "2009-06-13T14:38:41+00:00"}
21:59	duck1123	I was saying clojurebot needs to record the fact that it's albino's job to deal with french
22:00	hiredman	yeah, but then it would have to remember it
22:00	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is it to deal with french?
22:00	clojurebot	that's dthomas's job
22:02	duck1123	clojurebot: whose job is it to prove P = NP
22:02	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
22:02	jbell	lol
22:03	hiredman	oh
22:03	hiredman	you broke it
22:03	hiredman	clojurebot: whose job is <reply>that's #someone's job
22:03	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
22:04	hiredman	you need to end a question with "is" in it with a "?"
22:12	jbell	what else can clojurebot do?
22:13	jbell	that's implemented?
22:13	hiredman	~google clojurebot
22:13	clojurebot	First, out of 52 results is:
22:13	clojurebot	hiredman's clojurebot at master - GitHub
22:13	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
22:14	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to fr from en: hello
22:14	clojurebot	from en: Bonjour
22:14	hiredman	er
22:14	hiredman	clojurebot: translate to fr: hello
22:14	clojurebot	bonjour
22:14	jbell	cool
22:14	hiredman	1d20+5
22:14	clojurebot	9
22:15	jbell	lol
22:16	hiredman	~quote JAVA
22:16	clojurebot	excusez-moi
22:16	hiredman	~ticker JAVA
22:16	clojurebot	JAVA; +0.01
22:17	ambient	hmm, my huffman is just 3 lines and it would need heap queue to finish :/
22:18	ambient	quess it's time to implement O(n) insertion heapq
22:20	jbell	you could make clojurebot translate people on the fly, like clojurebot:translate user from es
22:20	ambient	or better yet, translate from english->chinese->english->spanish->english and see what comes out
22:21	ambient	technically i think it's mandarin
22:25	jbell	you could do something like run skinning challenges (after Chouser's skinning cats), and allow people to vote via clojurebot, and then clojurebot would keep track of the scores lol... yeah.
22:27	jbell	but I'm guessing from what you said before that it doesn't keep state
22:45	jbell	if clojure had a secure aspect then clojurebot could be programmable
22:49	jbell	how are generics handled in clojure? I seem to remember Rich mention them, and say that they weren't a problem..?
22:50	Chouser	right. Java uses type erasure, so you can just ignore them.
22:54	jbell	so what happens if I want to create an instance of an ArrayList<String> to pass to the Java side?
22:54	jbell	or is that not done for good reason?
22:55	Chouser	,(java.util.ArrayList. (map str (range 10)))
22:55	clojurebot	#<ArrayList [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]>
22:55	Chouser	it just works, as long as the only thing you put in the ArrayList are Strings.
22:56	Chouser	If you break the contract, you get a runtime exception.
22:56	jbell	oh ok, I've also found a log where you explained it to someone else too!
22:56	Chouser	:-)
22:58	jbell	now I know how you can reskin so fast :P
23:31	technomancy	evening dudes
23:31	technomancy	also possibly dudettes
23:33	durka42	evening technomancy
23:48	technomancy	any ideas what's wrong here? http://p.hagelb.org/screw%2fmaven.clj.html
23:49	technomancy	it's a direct port of code from the maven embedder unit tests
23:49	technomancy	the only difference I can think of is that the classloader it hands off to maven may be different in the context of Clojure
23:49	arbscht	404
23:50	technomancy	sorry: http://p.hagelb.org/maven.clj.html
23:56	technomancy	still not sure I understand how classloaders work and how Clojure interacts with it
23:58	technomancy	I suppose Clojure has its own classloader, and it's not playing nice with the other maven classes that are supposed to be loaded via plexus.
23:59	tomoj	I wish I could even begin to understand what you're talking about
23:59	tomoj	java is still a mystery to me :(