#clojure – 2009-08-30

2009-08-30

00:33	liebke	technomancy: very cool image! I just posted a blog entry on using Processing from Clojure: bit.ly/VPCvF
00:34	technomancy	liebke: cool! I noticed you're moving some of Incanter over to that?
00:35	technomancy	love the header on that site btw.
00:35	liebke	Yeah, Processing provides a lot of flexibility for creating visualizations
00:35	liebke	thanks :)
00:36	technomancy	liebke: why did you fork clj-processing instead of adding it as a dependency? did you need to modify it too much?
00:36	technomancy	I contacted the clj-processing author; he seemed to be fairly open to contributions.
00:37	liebke	yeah, I go into some of the changes I made in that blog entry. The biggest change was I wanted the PApplet argument to all the functions to be explicit instead of binding it to applet
00:38	technomancy	liebke: is that because you want to be able to juggle multiple applets at once?
00:38	technomancy	seems for regular processing visualizations it's nice to not have to think about that
00:40	technomancy	liebke: btw; I think you have the titles of the books mixed up
00:40	liebke	I agree, the binding approach makes the api look more like the "real" Processing API, but it made it difficult to figure out which functions could be called outside of the PApplet's methods.
00:40	liebke	Ah, thanks... let me fix that
00:41	technomancy	I'm not sure what I think of the multiple versions (-float, -int) of some of the core processing functions; seems awkward
00:42	technomancy	also I suggested allowing use of keywords instead of defing all the myriad Processing CONSTANTS
00:42	liebke	that's why I merged those functions
00:42	liebke	yes, keywords is a great idea
00:45	technomancy	also I abstracted away the applet proxy: http://github.com/technomancy/clj-processing/blob/32f26eee13cf5b516f0ac4f33d7ade501a04b0aa/src/rosado/processing/applet.clj
00:45	technomancy	anyway, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth sharing code since I'm probably going to continue hacking clj-processing and you might want to pull in those updates.
00:46	liebke	nice approach
00:46	liebke	there, fixed the book titles, thanks for pointing that out
00:46	technomancy	maybe make your non-binding applet functions in a layer on top of clj-processing so the codebases don't have to diverge.
00:47	liebke	hmm, interesting idea
00:47	technomancy	of course... handling dependencies in Clojure is not always a lot of fun. =\
00:48	technomancy	but it's worth considering
00:48	technomancy	I'm using Corkscrew for my Processing sketchbook experiments and it's not bad: http://github.com/technomancy/sketchbook/blob/6313522c8127a7d896e3d50347ec31b55484c411/project.clj
00:48	liebke	I think it's a good idea
00:50	andyfingerhut	I've used clojure.contrib.trace/deftrace for tracing some Clojure functions, but I was wondering if there was something more like Common Lisp's trace/untrace available, where you can enter an expression at the REPL that enables/disables tracing for the named fn?
00:53	technomancy	liebke: well, I better take off. looking forward to seeing more on Incanter.
00:53	technomancy	that's some good stuff you've got going on.
00:53	technomancy	bye!
00:53	liebke	Thanks, goodnight
00:55	andyfingerhut_	Or do people perhaps just change "defn" to/from "deftrace" and redefine the function? Or maybe people don't use tracing?
04:57	Nate75Sanders	in the clojure-dev screenshots on the clojure-dev webpage, do they have spell-checking disabled?
07:05	ambient	are Waterfront and Light the only text editors done in Clojure? I really like Emacs/SLIME but would like to see a simple REPL implementation done with Clojure. I can do so much with REPL that I might just not need a separate text editor at all. Adding paredit style editing to that and jumping to functions etc would probably work very well.
07:06	ambient	also i've been wondering how well would binding namespaces to directories and instantly saving everything defined in a REPL to a file work
07:51	ole3	ambient: what is Waterfront and Light?
09:10	ambient	ole3: http://sourceforge.net/projects/waterfront/ and http://code.google.com/p/lighttexteditor/
09:23	wlr	rhickey: re: juxt naming. Semantically comp does a math composition. Doesn't juxt semantically do a math right-distribution? So, maybe "rdist" would be an ugly but meaningful alternative.
09:30	rhickey	wlr: I think function composition is much more widely known. rdist wouldn't be meaningful to me. Have you got a reference link for right-distribution?
09:33	wlr	rhickey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributivity
09:33	rhickey	distribution makes me think of probability distribution, and this is not distributivity
09:34	wlr	i know. overloaded terms always present problems. distibuted programming is another.
11:13	rhickey	wlr: sorry, had to step away. ok, I could see how you could consider this right-distributive if you presume there is some concat operation between the fns and apply to the argset - ((juxt a b) x) === (a concat b) applyto x == (a applyto x) concat (b applyto x)
11:17	rhickey	still not buying rdist though
11:17	rhickey	:)
11:19	cemerick	rhickey: you were right on with the isa? usage :-/
11:19	rhickey	cemerick: oh good
11:19	cemerick	heh. I did a :facepalm: when I verified it. I should have caught that early on.
11:23	cemerick	rhickey: direct isa? usage isn't actually discouraged though, is it?
11:25	rhickey	not at all, I was just concerned as you talked about it in the context of multimethods. I wonder though that Java isn't doing more caching of its own to support isAssignableFrom. So far I haven't cached myself in the reflection code
11:26	rhickey	you should use isa? in preference to (contains? supers x) if possible
11:26	rhickey	isa? asks a direct question while supers needs to gather
11:26	cemerick	I definitely don't use supers directly at all.
11:27	cemerick	The typical usage is (isa? (type foo) ::some-keyword)
11:27	rhickey	ah
11:30	cemerick	...and our primary hierarchy has our set of entity interfaces being derived from higher-level 'types'...so the typical case has supers being called on a class object in every invocation of isa?
11:30	rhickey	got it, that's not going to be very fast unless you route it through a multimethod
11:31	cemerick	yeah...which I obviously don't want to do :-)
11:37	angerman	is there a markdown parser for clojure?
11:43	j-dot	angerman: I'm not sure, but I believe the documentation generator for Clojure Contrib now supports markdown. I would check there.
11:44	kotarak	angerman: there is markdownj
11:44	kotarak	angerman: http://sourceforge.net/projects/markdownj/
11:51	angerman	hmmm > 2000loc ok
11:51	Chouser	&v
11:51	Chouser	sorry
11:53	cemerick	rhickey: I've got a WeakHashMap-based memoize fn, and a patch to apply that memoization to supers (also easily applicable to bases, to help anyone using parents). Is this something you'd consider for inclusion?
11:53	cemerick	The safety issue isn't really something I can determine conclusively.
11:54	rhickey	no, I'm quite leery of WeakHashMap
11:55	rhickey	also I recommend against memoizing or otherwise dynamically binding standard fns
11:56	cemerick	OK -- is there a better approach I can take? It works well enough for us so far, but we have more control over execution environment, etc., than some.
11:56	rhickey	you can of course use your own memoized wrapper fns
11:57	cemerick	Don't worry, I am :-)
11:57	cemerick	I'd just like everyone to get the same benefits, if possible.
11:58	rhickey	sure, but the macro you posted scares me
11:58	cemerick	heh
11:59	cemerick	that was just something I posted so others could easily see what the delta would be for their code.
11:59	rhickey	one possibility is to ask a hierarchy to cache a relationship, as a function of the hierarchy
12:01	rhickey	are you using your own hierarchy or the global one?
12:01	cemerick	oh, just the global one
12:02	Chouser	cemerick: on real Java classes only, right?
12:02	cemerick	Chouser: as opposed to fake ones?
12:02	cemerick	;-)
12:02	Chouser	heh. as opposed to keywords.
12:02	rhickey	it would be relatively straightforward to have the global hierarchy cache isa? keyed on the identity of the hierarchy, as do multimethods
12:03	Chouser	or symbols
12:03	rhickey	Chouser: it's the relationships between real classes and keywords that aren't cached/fast
12:03	Chouser	oh, ok.
12:03	rhickey	cemerick: The typical usage is (isa? (type foo) ::some-keyword)
12:04	cemerick	Chouser: just classes (interfaces, actually), and namespaced keywords
12:04	Chouser	ok, ok. Sorry for slowing down the discussion.
12:04	cemerick	rhickey: wouldn't isa? caching have the same issues as memoizing supers, etc?
12:05	ambient	anyone want to help me with my newbie problem ~20 lines with Java interop? http://paste.lisp.org/+1UK7 I just can't figure out what's causing the error
12:06	rhickey	cemerick: which issues? class unloading? hierarchy modifications?
12:06	cemerick	rhickey: Yes :-)
12:06	rhickey	they ar edifferent
12:07	cemerick	actually, supers memoization doesn't affect hierarchy mods, as that's only dealing with classes
12:08	Chouser	ambient: that is indeed odd. You can try (def synth (MidiSystem/getSynthesizer))
12:08	Chouser	ambient: that is indeed odd. You can try (def synth (MidiSystem/getSynthesizer))er
12:08	Chouser	er
12:09	Chouser	(def #^Synthesizer synth (MidiSystem/getSynthesizer))
12:09	Chouser	ambient: I can't test that because I'm getting Unavailable expecetions, but it might help.
12:10	tashafa	,((fn [& v] (apply + v)) 1 2 3)
12:10	clojurebot	6
12:10	ambient	ok, seems that that did the trick :) I already tried type hints but seems I put them in the wrong place
12:10	ambient	thanks
12:11	Chouser	ambient: it shouldn't be necessary though. It seems you may have found a discrepency between the compile-time reflection and the runtime reflection code.
12:13	ambient	might just be that my Emacs repl is somehow broken
12:13	Chouser	ambient: what's the specific class of Synthesizer that you get?
12:13	ambient	MixerSynth, but I get it both ways
12:13	ambient	with or without type hints
12:14	Chouser	right
12:14	Chouser	you would.
12:14	Chouser	what package is that in?
12:14	ambient	javax.sound.midi
12:15	ambient	iirc
12:15	Chouser	,javax.sound.midi.MixerSynth
12:15	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: javax.sound.midi.MixerSynth
12:15	Chouser	,(class (MidiSystem/getSynthesizer))
12:15	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: MidiSystem
12:15	Chouser	,(class (javax.sound.midi.MidiSystem/getSynthesizer))
12:15	clojurebot	javax.sound.midi.MidiUnavailableException
12:16	Chouser	heh. no playing of midi on clojurebot's server...
12:16	Chouser	maybe com.sun.media.sound.MixerSynth
12:16	JAS415	oh man, does clojurebot do techno now?
12:16	Licenser	dun dun dun :)
12:17	rhickey	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call public method of non-public class: public javax.sound.midi.MidiChannel[] com.sun.media.sound.AbstractPlayer.getChannels()
12:18	ambient	some JRE's are missing the soundbank from their folders though. don't know about JDK's
12:18	tashafa	,((fn [& v] (apply + &v)) '(1 2 3))
12:18	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: &v in this context
12:19	tashafa	,((fn [&v] (apply + &v)) '(1 2 3))
12:19	clojurebot	6
12:19	rhickey	better message with the latest it seems, but this explains why the call must go through the interface via hints (the 'weird reason' the latter works is that the call to static method yields a return value of known type to the compiler)
12:19	rhickey	the def'ed synth is just Object to the compiler
12:22	tashafa	,((fn [&v] (apply + &v)) 1)
12:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
12:23	tashafa	sorry i'll go play in my repl now :)
12:26	Licenser	Is there a way to get some more epxressive messagesion from the REPL?
12:26	Licenser	I've seen some nice stuff in the videos, where an exception sayed which line it came from and showed a little stack trace
12:27	ambient	well if someone has that, then i need to get some too!
12:28	swdunlop	There are a couple nice hints about stack traces at http://jackndempsey.blogspot.com/2009/07/opening-your-mind-with-clojure.html
12:51	Licenser	swdunlop: thanks
12:51	swdunlop	Glad to help. :)
13:00	rlb	ISTR someone mentioning something like and-let*. Does clojure have something similar?
13:13	swdunlop	rlb: Interesting form.. Just read SRFI-2. I haven't seen anything like it in Clojure..
13:14	rlb	I supppose condp :>> is at least a bit related.
13:18	swdunlop	It would be an easy macro to write, just depends on how you wanted to handle the nonlocal exit.
13:18	swdunlop	I'm assuming just cheating and doing (let [...] (and ...)) is unsatisfactory. :)
13:21	cemerick	I wonder why Rich is uncomfortable with WeakhashMaps
13:29	LauJensen	Good evening gents
13:30	swdunlop	Evening.
13:34	rlb	swdunlop: right, it's just a syntactic sugar. And actually I was really thinking of the case where you need the value of an if guard in the true clause.
13:34	rlb	s/true/then/
13:35	Chouser	I haven't looked -- is that different from if-let?
13:35	rlb	Chouser: ahh, perhaps that's what I was thinking of (and maybe it was you who mentioned it before...). I'll look.
13:36	rlb	Chouser: Looks like that's exactly it. Thanks.
13:37	swdunlop	Chouser: It's similar. Sort of a chained if-let.
13:37	rlb	(and by exactly it -- exactly what I was thinking of)
13:38	swdunlop	If I'm understanding if-let correctly, it permits you to bind the result of the test clause to if to a variable, then use that result in the branches, correct?
13:39	Chouser	in the 'true' branch anyway
13:40	swdunlop	and-let* binds each clause in a shortcutting and form.
13:40	Chouser	yeah, only the true branch.
13:40	Chouser	if-let can sometimes interact nicely with destructuring, since the latter is only attempted in the true case.
13:42	swdunlop	Yeah. I can see how if-let could be a useful idiom, too. I tend to do a lot of (let [x ..] (if x ..)).
13:42	swdunlop	and-let is a more general form of if-let, I believe.
13:42	rlb	Is there an idomatic way to build up a map with optional elements? Of course I know you can build the map with the non-optional elements, and then conj or assoc the optional ones.
13:43	swdunlop	rlb: Like struct v. struct-map ?
13:43	Chouser	rlb: I've run into that a few times. also with seqs for vectors, but I've not seen a pleasant way to handle it.
13:44	swdunlop	I'm a Clojure newbie myself.. Coming over from Mosquito. :)
13:44	Chousuke	if the optional elements have default values, you could have a constant map to use as a base.
13:44	rlb	Chousuke: right. I'm talking about cases where the elements shouldn't exist if they don't have a value.
13:45	rlb	i.e. you can do (conj m (if x [:x x] []) ...), but I wondered if there was something better...
13:45	Chouser	for lists and vectors, you can abuse ` and ~@ ...but that doesn't work for maps.
13:45	rlb	Chouser: ok, thanks.
13:45	Chouser	, `[:a 1, ~@(when true [:b 2]), :c 3]
13:45	clojurebot	[:a 1 :b 2 :c 3]
13:46	Chouser	, `[:a 1, ~@(when false [:b 2]), :c 3]
13:46	clojurebot	[:a 1 :c 3]
13:46	Chouser	, `{:a 1, ~@(when true [:b 2]), :c 3}
13:46	clojurebot	5
13:46	Chouser	uh
13:46	Chouser	try that last one yourself. It don't really return 5
13:48	rlb	I suppose you could also just write the whole construction as one conj with if clauses for the optional members, though presumably that might be a bit less efficient.
13:48	rlb	Chouser: anyway, thanks.
13:49	Chouser	rlb: so I don't know anyway but to it using conj or assoc after-the-fact. Even then it ca be a bit messy.
13:49	Chouser	,(-> {:a 1, :c 3} (#(if true (assoc % :b 2) %)) (#(if true (assoc % :d 4) %)))
13:49	clojurebot	{:d 4, :b 2, :a 1, :c 3}
13:50	rlb	Right. I was just using (let [x {...}] (conj x (if ...) (if ...))).
13:51	Chouser	,(into {:a 1, :c 3} (concat (when true [[:b 2]]) (when true [[:d 4]])))
13:51	clojurebot	{:d 4, :b 2, :a 1, :c 3}
13:52	Chouser	hm, conj is better than into/concat
13:52	Chousuke	how about a "maybe-zipmap"? :P
13:52	Chouser	rlb: yeah, that's the best I've seen yet.
13:53	Chouser	,(conj {:a 1, :c 3} (when false [:b 2]) (when true [:d 4]))
13:53	clojurebot	{:d 4, :a 1, :c 3}
13:53	Chouser	no good for vectors or lists, but good to keep in mind for maps
13:54	rlb	Chouser: "when" is an improvement.
13:56	Chouser	conj isn't using transients (yet)
13:56	rlb	Chouser: since if guarantees nil when else is missing, if would be fine without an else clause too.
13:57	Chouser	yes. My understanding is that using 'when' is the preferred style when there is no else clause. shrug
13:58	rlb	yeah, that's fine.
15:14	ankou	hi, what do I need to do to tell slime where to find clojure?
15:14	ankou	*on linux
15:26	juhal	hi, can anyone explain why this fails
15:26	juhal	(let [hello #(println %)] (eval '(hello "world")))
15:26	juhal	but this doesn't
15:26	juhal	(let [hello #(println %)] (hello "world"))
15:27	juhal	or how I can make the former work?
15:27	rlb	juhal: I haven't use eval in clojure, but I would suspect that eval doesn't evaluate in an envt where hello is visible.
15:28	rlb	i.e. hello's a local binding, and eval doesn't operate in the local scope.
15:28	rlb	but I'm just guessing.
15:29	rlb	In guile for example, IIRC, local-eval might do what you seem to want.
15:30	juhal	there doesn't seem to be local-eval in clojure
15:30	dreish	juhal: What are you trying to do?
15:31	rlb	dreish: (yes, better question)
15:34	juhal	I'm writing a clojure based DSL for configuring a system. The configuration contains settings where I want to evaluate arbitrary expressions. Those expressions contain calls to domain specific functions.
15:35	dreish	So why are you trying to create them with let instead of defn?
15:36	dreish	Nevermind. Here's the closest alternative in Clojure:
15:36	dreish	(declare hello)
15:37	dreish	(binding [hello #(println %)] (eval '(hello "world")))
15:37	rlb	juhal: also note that if you have any security/safety concerns, you'll need some kind of restricted reader -- either an envt with no unsafe functions (if that's possible in clojure), or your own (hopefully fairly simple) sexp parser.
15:38	Chousuke	hm, can't you just bind read-eval to false?
15:38	rlb	Again, in guile, for example, you can create an empty environment and then populate it with whatever you want, then call eval in that envt. I don't know if clojure has something similar.
15:39	Chousuke	ah, never mind, that would only allow you to read the config, not eval it :/
15:39	rlb	Chousuke: would that prevent someone from calling "rm -rf /"?
15:39	rlb	in the config file?
15:39	rlb	That's what I was wondering about.
15:39	rlb	i.e. can you create an eval environment in clojure that's "safe"?
15:40	Chousuke	rlb: well, it'd basically disallow any evals from just reading the config.
15:40	rlb	for whatever your definition of safe is.
15:40	Chousuke	so you can at least read the file safely.
15:40	rlb	Ahh. The nice thing about the "safe envt" approach is that it makes it much easier to use the language itself as a config file, even for things where safety might matter.
15:40	Chousuke	evaling it safely is trickier. probably needs code-walking.
15:41	Chousuke	because of .
15:41	rlb	Chousuke: or the ability to create an environment that just doesn't have any unsafe bindings...
15:41	rlb	i.e. (eval foo safe-envt)
15:41	Chousuke	that's not possible in Clojure at the moment
15:41	Chousuke	because of . :)
15:41	rlb	or (load foo safe-envt)
15:41	Chousuke	though you can use the java sandbox...
15:41	rlb	Chousuke: right, you'd have to omit . from the envt.
15:41	Chousuke	,(System/exit 0
15:41	clojurebot	EOF while reading
15:42	Chousuke	,(System/exit 0 )
15:42	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0)
15:42	Chousuke	but that's still DOSable
15:42	rlb	Chousuke: ahh, I wondered about that -- perhaps that's an alternate approach in some cases.
15:43	rlb	Chousuke: well, even the safe-envt approach I was talking about is probably DOSable, depending on your criteria.
15:43	rlb	(unless it has no loop constructs, input limits, etc. ;>)
15:44	Chousuke	it might be useful to be able to arbitrarily disallow some special forms and reader macros...
15:44	Chousuke	but that probably needs clojure-in-clojure :)
15:44	juhal	I'm not too concerned with the security issues at this point. I just want to make it work. I was looking for something like the local-eval thing guile has.
15:45	rlb	juhal: could you not just load the file and use macros, etc. to build the DSL?
15:45	rlb	or do you need something sufficiently different from clojure itself, language-wise?
15:45	juhal	I tried that but the macros got too complicated for a lisp newbie like me
15:45	rlb	(i.e. is the DSL not sexp based, etc.)
15:46	juhal	so I ended just parsing the sexps
15:47	juhal	anyway dresish's workaround seems ok if not elegant
15:47	juhal	thank's for the suggestion
16:01	juhal	sigh the binding trick didn't work when going through a proxy object
16:01	juhal	when will I ever learn not to try anything fancy
16:16	rlb	Is (seq some-set) the appropriate way to convert a set to a list?
16:17	rlb	Actually, maybe that's not what I meant to do...
16:27	hiredman	rlb: seq returns a sequence, not a list
16:52	hamza	hey guys, i have a vector of keywords i would like to append them in to string one after another, how can i a turn a keyword to a string?
16:54	LauJensen	,(name :foo)
16:54	clojurebot	"foo"
16:54	Chouser	,(apply str [:foo :Bar :baz])
16:54	clojurebot	":foo:Bar:baz"
16:58	hamza	thx that works.
16:58	hamza	one other thing why i can't i use name in apply?
16:58	hamza	,(apply name [:foo :bar :baz])
16:58	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$name
16:59	Chouser	name takes just one arg
16:59	arbscht	because that effectively calls (name :foo :bar :baz)
17:00	Chouser	(apply str (map name [:foo :bar :baz]))
17:00	Chouser	,(apply str (map name [:foo :bar :baz]))
17:00	clojurebot	"foobarbaz"
17:01	hamza	kk so map applies the function one by one but apply passes the whole vector right?
17:02	LauJensen	,(doc apply)
17:02	clojurebot	"([f args* argseq]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending args to argseq."
17:02	LauJensen	,(doc map)
17:02	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
17:03	hamza	thank you.
17:08	LauJensen	np, if you're running emacs you can fetch those docs straight in your slime-repl
17:10	hamza	i am using emacs but using inferior lisp, i will check out slime heard a lot about it.
17:42	hamza	is it possible to do a post request from clojure or do resort to urlconnection?
17:51	arbscht	hamza: there are http libs in clojure.contrib
17:52	rlb	hamza: this might help http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/fetching-web-comics-with-clojure-part-1/
17:53	hiredman	that is an old tutorial, so watch out
17:54	hamza	thank you.
17:54	rlb	This will open a stream on a url: (with-open [in (.openStream (URL. address)) ...)
17:55	rlb	You might also be able to use duck-streams reader/writer, but I'm not sure offhand.
18:55	krumholt__	at the start of my file i use (ns my.namespace (:use some.lib)) but i am not able to load my file with (load-file myfile.clj) until i add a line (refer 'some.lib). that should be redundant because i already said (:use ...?
19:02	cark	should be (ns my.namespace (:use [some.lib]))
19:03	cemerick	(:use foo.bar) is just fine
19:03	cemerick	as is (:require foo.bar)
19:03	cark	hum ok
19:04	cark	i've always put these in a vector ...for what reason i don't know
19:05	cemerick	I generally do as well, as (:require [foo.bar :as baz]) is most idiomatic
19:07	cark	anyways to answer the question, yes it is redundant
19:10	krumholt__	hm but it is not working without the call to refer
19:10	krumholt__	maybe i need to put it in a vector
19:11	cark	mhh maybe your some.lib file is not at the right place
19:11	cark	what's the error you get ?
19:11	krumholt__	unable to resolve symbol
19:12	cark	hum you need double quotes around the filename here (load-file myfile.clj) ?
19:12	krumholt__	yes have that
19:13	krumholt__	it starts to load the file and then complains that it cannot find a function
19:13	krumholt__	from some.lib
19:13	cark	that's strange, you'd get an error if the lib was not used
19:14	krumholt__	i just add the line (refer 'my.lib) and everything works
19:16	krumholt__	it's not that much of a problem. i mean it works in the end i was just wondering what the underlying problem could be
19:33	Chouser	if file a.clj had (ns a (:use b)), you should not need a (refer b) in that same file.
19:34	Chouser	if some other place (file c or a repl) does (load-file "a.clj"), you still can't use the names from b until you do (refer b)
19:38	krumholt__	Chouser, ok thanks that explains it. i can't load-file from the repl
19:48	pluijzer	Can a function that relies upon a external constant variable be considered a pure function?
19:51	pluijzer	Can a function that relies upon a external constant variable be considered a pure function?
19:51	rathore_	i dont see why not
19:53	pluijzer	well the functions then has a "relevant environment"
19:58	hiredman	well, if it is really constant...
20:06	pluijzer	yes 4, 6 and pi are really constant too, but what if it relied upon a constant global variable, the function could behave differently in different programs.
20:06	hiredman	that is not a constant
20:07	pluijzer	okay
20:07	pluijzer	so no :)