#clojure – 2009-08-15

2009-08-15

00:21	lrenn	holy crap.
00:21	lrenn	(global-set-key (kbd "C-x C-i") 'ido-imenu)
00:21	lrenn	do that in a clojure file. Thank you thank you thank you technomancy.
00:24	lowlycoder	is there anyway to have clojure startup faster?
00:25	lowlycoder	i'm willing to waste memory / precompile / draw a pentagon & slaughter cute kittens
00:26	andyfingerhut	Some Common Lisp implementations have the idea of saving a core/dump file at some point after loading whatever you want, with the intent of starting up to that state faster. Does the JVM have such a thing?
00:26	hiredman	the nailgun server from vimclojure
00:26	hiredman	~nailgun
00:26	clojurebot	No entiendo
00:27	hiredman	~google java nailgun
00:27	clojurebot	First, out of 3420 results is:
00:27	clojurebot	Nailgun: Insanely Fast Java
00:27	clojurebot	http://martiansoftware.com/nailgun/index.html
00:27	hiredman	it works ok, but it isn't perfect
00:28	hiredman	the easiest way to use it is to grab it from vimclojure
00:28	hiredman	I have my netbook start up a nailgun server when it boots, so "clj" brings up an instant repl
00:29	lrenn	oh, ido-imenu isn't part of ido mode. my bad.
00:36	andyfingerhut	Apparently there is no standard for saving a core file in JVMs like some Lisp implementations have (also no Common Lisp standard for it -- implementation-specific). A JSR was proposed but rejected, according to a very recent thread in comp.lang.lisp titled "Q: JVM based Lisp implementations and saving images - possible?"
00:36	andyfingerhut	nailgun sounds faster, anyway, if that solution works for you.
00:37	hiredman	some operating systems like dragonflybsd can "freeze" processes
00:38	hiredman	not sure if you can restart the image multiple times though
00:38	hiredman	http://hackety.org/2008/02/27/dragonflysFreezer.html
00:49	lowlycoder	why does java com.martiansoftware.nailgun.NGServer work; but java -server com.martiansoftware.nailgun.NGServer does not
00:49	lowlycoder	does classpath not apply to -server?
00:55	hiredman	eh? works here
01:01	andyfingerhut	Would it be possible to make something like an immutable Java array in Clojure? By which I mean it would really be immutable, but then you'd lose the ability to efficiently conj on it?
01:02	hiredman	eh?
01:02	hiredman	I am pretty sure there are no immutable arrays in java
01:03	andyfingerhut	Well, all the persistent data structures in Clojure actually have their internals mutated in Java code during operations like conj, assoc, etc.
01:04	hiredman	erm
01:04	andyfingerhut	But I think they are prevented from being mutated by other Java code by being private, so no other methods can twiddle with their insides.
01:04	andyfingerhut	What if we put a Java array inside of such a class?
01:04	andyfingerhut	so only methods written for it would have permission to touch them.
01:05	andyfingerhut	I don't know if there are other possible advantages, but the one that motivated the thought was saving space for large arrays of Java primitives. That might be a special enough case not to be terribly interesting...
01:08	andyfingerhut	It is just bugging me that in order to have something immutable right now, it has to be 3 to 4 times larger, if you only want to stick ints or doubles into it.
01:09	andyfingerhut	because of java.lang.Object and java.lang.Double overheads.
01:39	lowlycoder	for vimclojure, what is vimdir=/custom/installation/path/for/vimplugin
01:39	lowlycoder	supposed to do?
01:39	lowlycoder	what dir is this vimplugin they want?
01:39	lowlycoder	/usr/share/vim/vim72/plugin?
03:02	konr	What are your editor-to-repl bindings set to?
04:13	lowlycoder	what are good web frameworks for clojure?
04:19	arbscht	lowlycoder: compojure is quite popular. (feel free to discuss it in #compojure if you're interested)
04:19	arbscht	others are listed at http://clojure.org/libraries
04:42	konr	lisping all night long, lalala
05:40	konr	argh, I can no longer think
05:40	konr	I guess I'll sleep with the other tutorial videos turned on
05:41	konr	time to cloje my eyes ;)
10:03	osaunders	Is there a way to break from a map?
10:03	cark	no
10:03	cark	but you don't need it
10:03	osaunders	What do you do instead?
10:03	cark	remember that map is lazy
10:04	cark	so you may filter
10:04	cark	or even filter before maping
10:05	cark	worst case you still may use loop
10:05	osaunders	I understand how I would filter before mapping, but how would the other one work?
10:05	cark	well that would depend on what you want to do i guess
10:06	osaunders	OK so how would I write this (Ruby) in Clojure: [1, 2, 3, 4].each { \|n\| puts n; break if n == 3 }
10:06	osaunders	I could filter [1 2 3 4] beforehand.
10:06	osaunders	But otherwise I don't know.
10:07	cark	or (map #(if (> % 3) nil %) [1 2 3 4])
10:07	cark	and take-while not nil
10:07	cark	actually directly take whil not nil =P
10:08	osaunders	:-s
10:08	osaunders	AH
10:09	osaunders	,(take-while #(not (nil? %)) (map #(if (< % 4)) [1 2 3 4])
10:09	clojurebot	EOF while reading
10:09	osaunders	(take-while #(not (nil? %)) (map #(if (< % 4)) [1 2 3 4]))
10:09	cark	,(take-while (partial >= 3 ) [1 2 3 4])
10:09	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
10:09	cark	do this before maping
10:10	cark	but it really depends on your specific case
10:10	tomoj	no reason to map if you just want to print them out
10:10	tomoj	sometimes I feel like it would be useful to have a take-while-inclusive
10:10	cark	selecting the correct subset of your sequence is a different concern than mapping it
10:11	tomoj	which would take while the condition is true AND include the first element for which the condition was false
10:12	osaunders	cark: I want up to 3. Isn't it < 4 not >= 3
10:12	osaunders	It's still just a hypothetical example but I need to know I'm not going insane.
10:12	cark	,(take-while #(<= % 3) [1 2 3 4])
10:12	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
10:12	cark	same thing
10:12	tomoj	that partial up there says `3 >=`, not `>= 3`
10:13	osaunders	<= != >= :-)
10:13	tomoj	it's in the opposite order
10:13	osaunders	Ah
10:13	osaunders	OK, that explains.
10:13	tomoj	(partial >= 3) is like #(>= 3 %)
10:13	osaunders	Yeah.
10:14	cark	yep sorry that was introducing a difficulty
10:15	cark	anyways the thing to remember is that the map operation is only there to map one thing to the other
10:15	cark	it is not there for selection
10:15	tomoj	it's just like ruby's map
10:15	tomoj	you can't throw things out
10:15	osaunders	Yeah OK.
10:15	osaunders	Thing is I'm thinking "OK I want to map now and then I'll break here" only you can't do that.
10:16	cark	but while thinking like that you mix 2 concerns
10:16	tomoj	yup, filter or take-while first
10:16	osaunders	So map with a break becomes (map sth (take-while pred list))
10:16	tomoj	paredit helps with that :)
10:17	osaunders	cark: Yeah, I can see Clojure's way is better.
10:21	osaunders	partial, take-while, conj etc. are called forms not functions right?
10:22	cark	mhh no
10:22	cark	these are functions
10:22	osaunders	defn is a form?
10:22	cark	that is a form : (map sth (take-while pred list))
10:22	osaunders	Oh.
10:22	osaunders	A macro isn't a function though?
10:22	cark	but you could say the "take-while form is neat"
10:23	cark	a special kind of function
10:23	osaunders	I thought form was a collective term for macros or functions.
10:23	cark	form is the all-inclusive thing
10:23	cark	it orks for special forms too
10:23	cark	works
10:23	osaunders	form isn't the function plus its arguments?
10:24	osaunders	... as an example.
10:24	cark	or the macro plus arguments
10:24	cark	or just the name
10:24	osaunders	Or just the name?
10:24	cark	everything is a form (to me)
10:24	osaunders	Gah.
10:24	osaunders	Um. :-s
10:24	cark	some forms are atoms
10:24	cark	some are lists
10:25	osaunders	10 is a form to you?
10:25	osaunders	"blah" is a form to you?
10:25	cark	i'd say that, i might be the only one tho
10:25	osaunders	lol
10:26	osaunders	If the purpose of such a word is for communication it might be a problem if you're the only one.
10:26	cark	hehe well it's up to you to start the big survey
10:26	osaunders	Dammit >_<
10:27	cark	if "if" is a special form
10:27	cark	that would mean that a form can be a single word
10:27	cark	or is it the full (if condition true-form false-form) thing ?
10:27	tomoj	CLHS says "form" is "any object meant to be evaluated", "a symbol, compound form, or a self-evaluating object"
10:28	osaunders	It might be referring to if in a wider sense.
10:28	cark	ah thanks tomoj
10:28	tomoj	of course CLHS isn't binding here, but...
10:28	cark	does that include literals?
10:28	tomoj	yeah, those are "self evaluating objects"
10:28	cark	one might say that the reader is evaluating "blahblah"
10:29	tomoj	so, I think `(if condition true-form false-form)` is the "special" form, but "if" is still a form since it's a symbol
10:29	osaunders	I'm trying to work out what CLHS stands for.
10:29	cark	ok great i'm not the only one then =)
10:29	cark	common lisp hyper-spec
10:29	cark	an wonderfull document
10:30	tomoj	CLHS's forms don't include [1 2 3] or {:a 3}
10:30	tomoj	I suppose ours do
10:30	osaunders	"foo" can't be evaluated
10:30	osaunders	,("foo")
10:30	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
10:30	cark	,"foo"
10:30	tomoj	,"foo"
10:30	clojurebot	"foo"
10:30	clojurebot	"foo"
10:30	tomoj	:)
10:31	cark	and even more :
10:31	cark	,("foo" 2)
10:31	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
10:31	cark	oh yes =/
10:31	cark	pff
10:31	tomoj	I did think strings were associative?
10:31	cark	vectors are, but this cannot be done because clojure uses java strings
10:32	osaunders	,('(1))
10:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
10:32	cark	i forgot that for a minute =)
10:32	tomoj	,(let [{a 2, b 3} "foobar"] [a b])
10:32	clojurebot	[\o \b]
10:32	cark	,([0 1 2 3] 2)
10:32	clojurebot	2
10:32	tomoj	ah, that must seq it first?
10:33	cark	sequences are not associative either
10:33	cark	because of O(n) random acess
10:33	tomoj	well.. does it convert it to a vector of characters first, then, I suppose?
10:34	cark	i guess there's some magic in the destructuring code
10:35	osaunders	Clojure strings are atoms.
10:35	osaunders	Because they are Java objects.
10:35	osaunders	I always thought.
10:35	osaunders	They probably should be vectors of characters though imho.
10:35	tomoj	atoms can be forms too
10:36	osaunders	But is this really being evaluated:
10:36	osaunders	,"foo"
10:36	tomoj	in CL atoms are everything except conses
10:36	clojurebot	"foo"
10:36	tomoj	a bit more difficult to decide what an atom is in clojure, I think
10:36	osaunders	conses?
10:37	tomoj	a cons is basically a 2-tuple
10:37	tomoj	a pair
10:37	tomoj	(in CL)
10:37	osaunders	OK.
10:37	cark	does not exist in clojure
10:37	tomoj	everything in CL is either an atom or such a pair
10:37	tomoj	but we also have vectors, maps, seqs, etc..
10:38	osaunders	Yeah I don't think you have pairs as a first-class type in Clojure. I haven't encountered it.
10:38	tomoj	I don't think the atomic/other distinction really makes as much sense in clojure
10:38	osaunders	Actually, I suppose (1 2) is a pair.
10:38	tomoj	not the same
10:39	osaunders	Why?
10:39	tomoj	(1 2) in CL is (1 . (2 . nil))
10:39	tomoj	that is, 1 paired with (2 paired with nil)
10:39	osaunders	CL = Clojure?
10:39	tomoj	CL = common lisp
10:39	osaunders	Oh!
10:39	osaunders	ffs
10:39	osaunders	I have to re-read everything you said now.
10:39	cark	there is no pair in clojure, that would be very wastefull with the jvm
10:39	tomoj	haha, sorry
10:41	osaunders	Hm.
10:42	osaunders	The distinction between a pair and a sequence of two for me was that a pair takes on a new meaning as a result. A sequence is a collection. A pair is a unification.
10:43	osaunders	It's possible to unify more things than 2.
10:43	tomoj	"cons" means something very special in CL, I was just saying even though clojure has "pairs" like (1 2), they are not similar to canses
10:43	tomoj	s/canses/conses/
10:43	cky	cark: There are ways to "simulate" pairs fairly effectively in the JVM. Have an ArrayList of cons cells (global, I know), then each reference to a cons cell can be represented as an int, the index to that global array. :-P
10:43	cark	cky : how about garbage collectionthen ?
10:44	cky	cark: Use weak references. :-P
10:44	cark	an integer is not a reference
10:44	osaunders	tomoj: I don't quite understand what's special about conses in CL?
10:44	tomoj	they're a special data structure
10:45	cky	cark: No, the ArrayList contains WeakReferences.
10:45	tomoj	a cons can only have 2 elements
10:45	osaunders	tomoj: I didn't understand that example you gave, I don't know CP.
10:45	cky	cark: Then, you have a reference queue that gets notified when items get collected.
10:45	tomoj	lists are built out of multiple conses chained together
10:45	cark	cky: right, but your arraylist will grow indefinitely
10:45	cky	cark: No, when your reference queue gets notified, then the associated slots can be reused.
10:45	tomoj	so (1 2 3) is (1 . (2 . (3 . nil)))
10:45	tomoj	in clojure (1 2 3) is just (1 2 3)
10:46	osaunders	So it can have more than 2?
10:46	tomoj	no, the "." separates elements of the pair
10:46	osaunders	You just said it couldn't.
10:46	osaunders	Ah, OK.
10:46	osaunders	Binary tree.
10:46	cark	cky: but you would get notified when the content of the conses are freed, which might be before you don't need them (you still hold an index somewhere)
10:46	tomoj	osaunders: yup, but for lists it's just a linked list ending with nil
10:46	cky	cark: Hmm.
10:47	cky	cark: I'll think on this some more. :-P
10:47	cark	hehe ok
10:47	tomoj	so in CL there's (1 2), the list, and (1 . 2) the pair, and they are very different
10:47	cky	cark: Well played, etc. :-)
10:47	tomoj	in clojure we juts have (1 2) the list
10:47	cark	=)
10:47	tomoj	...but we still have a function named "cons" :D
10:48	cark	indeed there still are some kind of ons cells in clojure but these are not the same as CL cons
10:48	cark	+c
10:49	osaunders	The motivation for pairs is performance?
10:49	tomoj	uhh
10:49	cark	nope, the motivation is these are universal
10:49	osaunders	Binary tree can be searched faster, can't they?
10:49	tomoj	I'm not sure really, it's just the fundamental building block of CL
10:50	cark	cons are a good building block, usefull in many ways
10:50	osaunders	Trees are universal.
10:50	osaunders	Binary trees are a special type of tree.
10:50	cark	yes, but you may build tree from cons cells
10:50	tomoj	its just in most cases in CL, they're not binary trees, they're just linked lists
10:50	tomoj	so I don't think binary search was a motivating factor
10:50	osaunders	Hm.
10:51	cark	you can build almost any data structure from cons cells
10:51	osaunders	What exactly is a cell?
10:51	cark	a cons cell is a pair =P
10:51	osaunders	OK. I've got to get this terminology straight.
10:51	osaunders	So, thanks.
10:52	cark	it does not apply to clojure, so you may forget all about it
10:52	cark	i mean while learning clojure
10:52	osaunders	Sure. I'm interested in language design though.
10:55	osaunders	Why does (apply println [1 2]) print "1 2\n" not "1\n2\n"?
10:55	osaunders	Oh wait, ignore that.
10:58	osaunders	OK, confused again :-) What's going on here http://pastebin.com/m3ecc2e6a ?
10:58	tomoj	osaunders: use doseq
10:59	tomoj	,(doseq [n [1 2]] (println n))
10:59	clojurebot	1 2
11:00	tomoj	map is not meant to be used for looping
11:01	osaunders	Up until now I didn't know how else to do it.
11:01	osaunders	Thanks for the doseq.
11:01	cark	remember that map is only to transform the items of a list
11:01	osaunders	I will.
11:02	tomoj	actually, I like this even better: (println (str-join "\n" [1 2]))
11:02	tomoj	need clojure.contrib.str-utils/str-join
11:02	tomoj	it's a strange thing to loop over a sequence and print each element, to me
11:03	cark	b
11:03	osaunders	Why's that?
11:03	tomoj	I'd rather just functionally transform the sequence into something like the output I want, then print it
11:03	tomoj	minimize the occurrence of side-effects
11:03	tomoj	as much of your code as possible should be purely functional
11:03	osaunders	I see.
11:06	tomoj	e.g. say you're writing some code that formats and prints a big structured report
11:06	tomoj	if you do the printing deep in the inner loops, to test you have to bother with capturing output and stuff like that
11:06	tomoj	if instead you have a bunch of little functions which do no printing, just build up a string to be printed at the end, you can test each individual function quite easily
11:07	osaunders	How would you build up the string without side-effects though?
11:07	tomoj	well.. it's certainly possible
11:07	cark	for this kind of stuff i build a very large structure with lists containing lists, and as the very last step convert the whole thing to a big string
11:08	osaunders	Is CL purely functional?
11:08	tomoj	building up strings is probably inefficient
11:08	cark	CL is not purely functional
11:08	tomoj	heck no, CL doesn't even place any particular emphasis on functional
11:08	cark	clojure is not either
11:08	tomoj	that's why we're here and not in #lisp :)
11:08	osaunders	OK.
11:28	eevar_	tomoj: or because of the java ecosystem
11:28	osaunders	I'm not here for that.
11:29	osaunders	asdf?
11:30	eevar_	CL's package system. which you need to do _anything_ of interest
11:30	eevar_	even opening a file :p
11:31	eevar_	*naming
11:35	eevar_	by package system i mean library management, btw. my english/writing blows ;)
11:35	osaunders	Are you German by any chance?
11:37	eevar_	neh, norwegian
11:37	osaunders	OK.
11:37	osaunders	Not that it matters.
11:45	osaunders	Apparently the type of expression I mentioned before, (whitespace sensitive) has a name: I-expressions.
11:45	osaunders	Quote WP: "A more recent variant is I-expressions, which use indentation to indicate parentheses implicitly, and are thus in some ways intermediate between S-expressions and M-expressions."
11:46	tomoj	nice, I didn't know there was a reader syntax for ratios :)
11:46	osaunders	tomoj: Are you using Clojure for real work?
11:47	tomoj	does "real work" mean "getting paid"? then no
11:48	tomoj	I have decided to do my pet project in clojure instead of ruby, though
11:49	osaunders	Fair enough.
11:49	osaunders	What is your pet project, if you don't mind my asking?
11:49	tomoj	a web app for college course planning
11:49	tomoj	specifically for UT-Austin at this point since parsing course schedules is such a pain
11:49	osaunders	Neat. Good luck then.
11:50	tomoj	thanks :)
12:00	LauJensen	Top of the evening gents
12:09	tomoj	there is no reader syntax for a MapEntry, huh?
12:10	tomoj	is it efficient to use a literal hashmap with one keyval pair instead?
12:10	tomoj	as in:
12:11	tomoj	,(conj {:a 3} {:b 7})
12:11	tomoj	except, what if I'm doing that a whole lot? seems scary to create a new hashmap there in the last argument every single time, but does clojure save this from inefficiency?
12:19	tomoj	well, that's a silly example :)
13:16	Chousuke	tomoj: (assoc map key val)? :/
13:22	tomoj	yeah :)
13:23	tomoj	I can't remember why I wanted literal mapentries
13:32	stuarthalloway	I am sitting in a room with Steve Gilardi! Should we have a contributors meeting? :-)
13:56	rlb	Is there anything like -> that will work in cases where the pass-through should be something other than the first arg?
13:56	drewr	rlb: not built-in, I don't think
13:56	rlb	i.e. you want to do something like (foo x (foo y (bar z w)))
13:56	rlb	I was specifically thinking of something like this:
13:57	rlb	(-> foo
13:57	rlb	(re-gsub x %)
13:57	rlb	(re-gsub y %)
13:57	rlb	(re-gsub z %)
13:57	rlb	(re-gsub w %))
13:58	rlb	for a sequence of transformations.
13:58	stuarthalloway	rlb: don't think it exists, but it would be cool if someone wrote a macro like ->, but with a placeholder showing where the argument gets threaded into the next form
13:58	rlb	right
13:58	drewr	(-> foo #(re-gsub #"." x %) ...)
13:59	rlb	Though I suppose you might want to use something other than %
13:59	rlb	perhaps _ or similar
14:00	rlb	Anyway, thanks.
14:03	Chousuke	stuarthalloway: isn't there one in contrib?
14:03	Chousuke	let-> or something
14:03	rlb	Chousuke: Oh, ok, I'll look.
14:04	stuarthalloway	me too. I have been wrong before. :-)
14:07	Chousuke	hmm, I can't find it. But I did see something like that mentioned on the group once
14:08	stuarthalloway	grr, let-> isn't google-searchable
14:08	tomoj	just found -?> and .?., nifty
14:08	Anniepoo	ok, stupid noob question of the morning - I'm not getting the practical application of ->
14:09	stuarthalloway	Anniepoo: changes order of reading from inside-out to left->right
14:09	Anniepoo	example?
14:09	stuarthalloway	(. (. (. this) is) pain)
14:09	cark	Anniepoo: (-> "a.txt" FileReader. BufferedReader.)
14:09	rlb	Anniepoo: also helps avoid going of the right side of the page..
14:09	stuarthalloway	(-> this is easy)
14:10	tomoj	,(-> {} (assoc :a 3) (assoc :b 1))
14:10	Chousuke	,(-> "foobar" .toUpperCase (.substring 3))
14:10	stuarthalloway	where's the bot?
14:10	Chousuke	hm. slow :P
14:10	Chousuke	ah, it's gone :(
14:10	cark	,(let [t {:a {:b {:c 1}}}] (-> t :a :b :c))
14:10	cark	hum
14:11	cark	clojurebot is on vacation
14:11	tomoj	mine and cark's examples are sortof silly I suppose
14:12	rlb	(-> a-file sort reverse take-10)
14:13	Anniepoo	so, what's that expand to?
14:13	tomoj	take-10?
14:13	rlb	Assuming I didn't do it wrong (take-10 (reverse (sort a-file)))
14:13	rlb	tomoj: just a fake example
14:13	Anniepoo	ah, thanks
14:13	rlb	tomoj: i.e. "head -n 10"
14:13	Anniepoo	now I get it
14:13	tomoj	ah
14:14	Anniepoo	ok it's left to right
14:14	tomoj	does -> have a pronounceable name?
14:15	cark	thread ?
14:15	cark	as in thread through
14:15	tomoj	not very googleable either
14:15	tomoj	:(
14:16	Anniepoo	ok, thanks, leads to second noob question of morning
14:17	Anniepoo	user=> (macroexpand (-> [1 2 3] sort reverse)) => (3 2 1)
14:17	Anniepoo	which looks like it evaluated it
14:17	cark	you need to put a '
14:17	cark	(macroexpand '(-> [1 2 3] sort reverse))
14:17	Anniepoo	ah
14:17	Anniepoo	thanks
14:17	cark	because there you're macroexpanding the result
14:18	tomoj	unfortunately that doesn't help all that much
14:18	tomoj	because macroexpand isn't recursize
14:18	cark	i mean in your attempt, the thing you're macroexpanding is the result of evualting (-> [1 2 3] sort reverse))
14:18	Anniepoo	yes, I see what my mistake was
14:19	Anniepoo	the implementation of -> is to take the last item and go (last-thing (-> rest-of-it))
14:20	tomoj	not really
14:20	tomoj	(use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
14:20	tomoj	(source ->)
14:21	Chousuke	Anniepoo: it puts the first parameter as the second item in the next parameter, then repeats
14:21	tomoj	it just looks like that because of the way macroexpand works
14:21	Chousuke	Anniepoo: as a special case, a plain symbol is treated as a single-item list
14:22	Anniepoo	Yah, Chousuke, that's the thing that I couldn't understand that prompted all this
14:22	Chousuke	most functions take their primary argument as their first one, so it's pretty convenient.
14:23	Anniepoo	maybe have a markered version
14:24	Anniepoo	(-> arg1 arg2 :funcs fun1 fun2 fun3)
14:24	Chousuke	if you do (-> "foobar" .toUpperCase (.substring 3)) it becomes (-> (.toUpperCase "foobar") (.substring 3)) which becomes (.substring (.toUpperCase "foobar") 3)
14:24	tomoj	is there already something to get full macro expansion?
14:25	Chousuke	mexpand-all in contrib I think
14:25	tomoj	ah yes, thanks
14:25	Anniepoo	hope clojurebot isn't sick, or got in an accident, or something
14:26	Anniepoo	kidnapped by imperative programmers who are making him do J2EE
14:46	rlb	So is (reverse (take 3 (reverse x))) the clojure equivalent of something like (tail 3 x)?
14:48	Chouser	rlb: http://www.assembla.com/spaces/clojure/tickets/151 would allow (last 3 x), if that's what you mean.
14:48	Anniepoo	nuuurg.....
14:49	Chouser	'reverse' is hardly ever idiomatic clojure
14:49	rlb	I just wanted the last N items of the sequence.
14:49	Anniepoo	start emacs with 'emacs' - try to exit with C-x C-c, it beeps and does nothing
14:49	tomoj	(drop (- (count coll) n) coll)
14:49	Chouser	rlb: yeah, that's what the new 'last' would allow. Until then...
14:50	Chouser	use tomoj's solution. :-)
14:50	rlb	tomoj: right
14:50	Chouser	if it's a vector, you might prefer to use subvec
14:51	tomoj	Anniepoo: that's odd..
14:52	Anniepoo	I'm able to do read and write file
14:52	Anniepoo	(amazing how these things hang on, I recognize these commands from PMATE, which I used in 1984)
14:52	rlb	I need to get clojure's operation costs more clearly fixed in my head...
14:53	tomoj	Anniepoo: maybe try C-h k C-x C-c
14:53	Anniepoo	installed emacs module to existing cygwin
14:53	rlb	Anniepoo: or M-x kill-emacs
14:53	tomoj	oh.. cygwin.. :(
14:53	rlb	Anniepoo: you're probably having keyboard mapping issues.
14:54	rlb	i.e. if you're on a console (rather than in X).
14:54	Anniepoo	yah, I'm on a console
14:54	tomoj	C-x C-c works in every console I've used, but maybe cygwin is weird
14:54	rlb	tomoj: I think it can be
14:54	tomoj	only problems I've had in console is like C-RET and S-up
14:55	tomoj	(since C-RET == RET)
14:56	rlb	Anniepoo: you might want to try X (and xterm, emacs in X, etc.). I think there's a command that'll fire up a rootless server if you have the right pkgs installed.
14:56	Anniepoo	yah, typing x gives me a totally blank x desktop
14:56	rlb	By default, I still think in scheme/lisp structures...
14:56	rlb	Anniepoo: I don't think that's what you want.
15:04	mebaran151	Anniepoo, how recent is your laptop
15:04	mebaran151	much easier than cygwin is to just use virtualization package
15:04	mebaran151	like VirtualBox from Sun
15:05	Anniepoo	XP tablet
15:06	rlb	Chouser: fwiw, it was a string -- just wanted the last 4 chars.
15:07	Anniepoo	thanks all, there's a direct windows port as well
15:07	Anniepoo	I'll try that
15:07	Anniepoo	and thanks rlb for helpign with the wierdness with exiting
15:11	Chouser	rlb: while you certainly can use the seq library on strings, it often works best to use Java methods or the contrib str-utils lib.
15:12	rlb	Chouser: ok, thanks. In the end, I may actually just want a regex for this particular bit.
15:13	Chouser	,(re-find #".{3}$" "hello there")
15:14	rlb	Chouser: I obviously need to learn java regexes better. I've just been sticking to the really cross-regex-platform bits.
15:15	Chouser	Java mostly follows perl, though without some of the trickier bits.
15:15	Anniepoo	Java libs wrap many things just to be wrapping
15:16	Anniepoo	you make a Pattern from the string
15:16	Anniepoo	which is just an object that represents the regex pattern
15:16	Chouser	well, it supposedly does some "compilation" too. Not sure how much that buys you.
15:17	Anniepoo	then you get a Matcher, which is an object that seq's sequential matches of a pattern against a string
15:18	Chouser	and is a scary, mutable thing I'd recommend not touching if at all possible.
15:18	Anniepoo	I got bit by a Matcher once and had to go to the emergency room for shots
15:18	Chouser	I don't doubt it.
15:19	Chousuke	Matcher seems like it's unnecessarily mutable :/
15:19	Chouser	fortunately we have re-seq
15:19	Anniepoo	and totally fail to understand why regex libraries don't just implement the
15:19	Chousuke	I mean, is creating a new matcher really that expensive? :)
15:19	Anniepoo	emacs/qed/whatever
15:20	Anniepoo	gs/regex/replacement/
15:20	Anniepoo	command
15:20	rlb	Chousuke: it may be building DFA, so it could be non-trivial.
15:20	rlb	(I imagine it is building something like that...)
15:20	Chousuke	rlb: shouldn't that happen when the pattern is compiled, not when it's matched against a string?
15:20	rlb	s/building DFA/building a DFA/
15:20	rlb	Chousuke: oh, I misunderstood.
15:20	Anniepoo	the speedup is important if you're using one to find something in the middle of a huge string
15:21	rlb	Chousuke: right -- I would think it was built when the regular expression was created, i.e. at #"foo" time.
15:21	Chousuke	I read yesterday that you don't actually have to quote parens in emacs regexps, because they're matched against so often.
15:21	Anniepoo	yes, matchers are resettable - they aren't truly seq's
15:22	rlb	Chousuke: right
15:22	Chousuke	if you want matching groups, THEN you quote the parens.
15:22	Chouser	Anniepoo: contrib str-utils2 has global search/replace. quite handy.
15:22	Chousuke	which is amusing.
15:22	rlb	Chousuke: emacs inverts that.
15:22	Chouser	which is old-school. like sed
15:23	Chouser	instead you have to escape groups. and you have to escape the escaping, I beieve, so you end up with "\\$this\\|that\\$"
15:23	Chouser	oops
15:23	Chouser	instead you have to escape groups. and you have to escape the escaping, I beieve, so you end up with "\\$this\\\|that\\$"
15:23	Chouser	or something. anyway, it's painful whatever it is.
15:24	rlb	Chouser: exactly how it depends on whether you're typing in source code, or issuing an interactive expression, i.e. M-x search-regexp, etc.
15:24	Chouser	ah, ok.
15:27	rlb	(...surprised I'm messing with rss, and also surprised how easy clojure's making it...)
15:31	Anniepoo	fwiw, if you're on winders, the direct winders version is far saner than X or console cygwin versions
15:32	Anniepoo	it's even got a toolbar! 8cD
15:36	tomoj	I always turn that off anyway :)
15:39	Anniepoo	yah, we all do, but it's nice they're not doing the passive-aggressive unix "cross platform == the unix way" thing
15:39	Anniepoo	(they did ship the windows release with unix line endings)
15:41	rlb	So does anyone happen to know if java has a built in table mapping common mime types to file-extensions, i.e. audio/mpeg -> .mp3?
15:42	Anniepoo	you mean in the core libs? there's probably one in the JAI or Java media libs, but getting to it sounds like a trail of tears
15:43	rlb	I just didn't know if there was something obvious. In any case, for now I'm fine with just hard-coding a small lookup table.
15:43	rlb	(and using the last 4 url chars if they match #"\..{3}" (thanks Chouser)
15:43	rlb	)
15:44	Anniepoo	you could slurp the RFC off the net and use regex's to extract the information
15:44	Anniepoo	then if they change the RFC you'd still be right 8cD
15:45	rlb	Now I just need a (dump-url-to filename)...
15:46	tomoj	duck-streams?
15:47	rlb	tomoj: not familiar -- I'll have to look.
15:47	osaunders	(defn factors [n]
15:47	osaunders	(filter #(zero? (rem n %)) (range n 1 -1)))
15:48	osaunders	Does that look OK?
15:48	osaunders	More specifically, is it all lazy?
15:49	Anniepoo	yes, but you can apply an increment to range
15:49	osaunders	I am, -1.
15:49	Anniepoo	rlb, you might find fetch-url on this page useful
15:49	Anniepoo	http://gnuvince.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/fetching-web-comics-with-clojure-part-1/
15:50	rlb	Anniepoo: right, thanks, I was looking at that.
15:50	Anniepoo	that should move to clojure.contrib somewhere - this is the third time somebody's asked for it in my memory
15:50	tomoj	doesn't duckstreams fetch urls?
15:51	Anniepoo	really hate that everything left google code
15:52	tomoj	(with-open [file (reader "http://www.google.com/")] (slurp file))
15:52	rlb	tomoj: it looksl like it.
15:52	rlb	tomoj: and it has copy -- it looks like it might be exactly what I wanted.
15:52	tomoj	oh.. slurp is wrong there
15:53	rlb	(with-open [in ... out ...] (copy in out)) etc.
15:53	tomoj	cool
15:53	Anniepoo	(slurp "http://www.foo.com") definitely won't work
15:53	rlb	Anniepoo: you have to have the (reader ...) bit.
15:53	Anniepoo	sure
15:54	Anniepoo	but it seems unclojurelike
15:54	Anniepoo	why shouldn't it just be smart and do the right thing?
15:55	Anniepoo	arguably, there's no point in file IO any more, since files are URL's
15:55	rlb	This is really too easy...
15:55	Anniepoo	LOL
15:55	rlb	(not that I'm complaining, mind you)
15:56	tomoj	oh you can just slurp* the url
15:56	tomoj	well, if you want to read it instead of copying it I mean
15:56	rlb	OK, so now I just need some way to insert a progress meter into the stream ;>
15:56	Anniepoo	lovely, that's exactly what's wanted
15:56	rlb	Though I suppose I can just monitor the file size.
15:57	rlb	Just set up an agent/thread/whatever.
15:57	rlb	And for the first pass, we'll just pretend like people don't actually care about knowing what's going on.
15:59	rlb	Anyway, fwiw, what I'm working on is a clojure version of something like hpodder or podget, but one that may be simpler, but is at least more flexible about retention policies, i.e. keep the last N copies of this, but all of this, etc. For example, you might use it to maintain some podcast/news-stream/whatever dirs for mpd from cron.
16:00	rlb	(at least that's what I may use it for)
16:00	tomoj	rlb: what's the interface like?
16:00	rlb	tomoj: command-line only ATM.
16:00	tomoj	great
16:00	rlb	tomoj: and intentionally simple
16:00	tomoj	I love things that are command-line only
16:00	Anniepoo	haptic feedback only
16:01	tomoj	hmm.. I wonder if there is java stuff for ncurses
16:01	rlb	i.e. perhaps "foo rss-update --keep 10 http://...."
16:01	rlb	i.e. perhaps "foo rss-update --keep 10 --dest some-dir http://...."
16:01	rlb	not sure yet
16:02	rlb	Just got a decent start in under 100 lines of code, though...
16:02	Anniepoo	When I get there I want to wrap ImageMagick (a command line image processor, also available as libs) with a clojure binding
16:03	rlb	Anniepoo: I just heard a long claim that graphicsmagick is much "better" for some definition of better FWIW (no idea myself).
16:03	Anniepoo	lol
16:04	tomoj	the only thing I know is that rmagick sucks
16:04	Anniepoo	it's a classic old feud between two halves of what was once one OS dev team
16:05	rlb	Yeah, I think the intro quote I saw was this: "ImageMagick uses convoluted and arcane code paths in an apparent attempt to defeat human comprehension""ImageMagick uses convoluted and arcane code paths in an apparent attempt to defeat human comprehension".
16:06	Anniepoo	http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59223
16:06	rlb	I think it's in some graphicsmagic performance comparison (again, no idea myself).
16:06	Anniepoo	yah, per this GM concentrates on library support, IM concentrates on cmd line usage
16:11	Anniepoo	The IM syntax is painful, and I'm going to be a heavy user of it over the next 6-12 months, so
16:11	Anniepoo	a wrapper would be a convenience
16:12	osaunders	It seems like loop is just fn and let combined but it's a special form.
16:12	osaunders	Why is it a special form? There must be something significant about it.
16:15	kotarak	osaunders: because it creates a recursion point for recur
16:16	osaunders	fn does that too.
16:16	kotarak	but fn does create a class, loop does not
16:16	osaunders	fn creates a class? A java class?
16:16	kotarak	yes
16:16	osaunders	Why?
16:17	kotarak	each fn generates a class, which is instantiated on runtime.
16:17	rlb	OK, that didn't work at all -- resulting .mp3 is not right (much longer than it should be).
16:17	osaunders	kotarak: Why is that something you would want to use loop in order to avoid?
16:19	osaunders	Does loop exist in other Lisps?
16:19	kotarak	osaunders: because you then have to instantiate the class, invoke some method on it, etc. while loop just works in the same call stack.
16:19	tomoj	osaunders: not in the same form
16:19	kotarak	osaunders: yes, but in different form
16:20	osaunders	Doesn't recur avoid use of call stack anyway?
16:20	tomoj	stuff like: (loop for i from 1 to 5 collecting i) => (1 2 3 4 5)
16:21	kotarak	osaunders: but the initial entry would require it. And the calling would be awkward: ((fn [a b c] .... (recur x y z)) :initial-a :initial-b :initial-c)
16:21	tomoj	kotarak: how often do you have to instantiate the class?
16:21	kotarak	tomoj: when you create a function.
16:21	osaunders	kotarak: Hardly warrants a special form.
16:21	tomoj	ah, ok
16:22	kotarak	osaunders: you don't have to use it.
16:22	rlb	So any idea why "wget URL" would get the right content, but duck-stream (copy (reader URL) (writer "filename")) would get something much longer, that's not a proper mp3?
16:22	tomoj	osaunders: so how would you do (loop [a (range 10) b (range 10)] [a b]) ?
16:22	rlb	Is there some "binary mode" business perhaps?
16:22	kotarak	((fn [a b] [a b]) (range 10) (range 10))
16:22	kotarak	Not very nice.
16:23	tomoj	that's not the same thing
16:23	tomoj	oh, yes it is
16:23	tomoj	I was thinking of "for"
16:25	osaunders	loop could be implemented as a macro.
16:25	osaunders	From what I've been told so far.
16:25	Chousuke	maybe loop is a special form because it supports primitives :/
16:25	kotarak	osaunders: obviously not, since you don't get the recursion point for recur
16:26	osaunders	You can recur on a fn.
16:26	osaunders	Can't you?
16:26	Chousuke	fn arguments are always boxed though.
16:27	Chousuke	and you'd have to create a class for every loop
16:27	kotarak	osaunders: I would prefer not to hide things, which generate classes
16:28	osaunders	Is this right? (fn [y] (let [x y] (recur)) == (loop [x y] (recur))
16:28	kotarak	no
16:28	kotarak	(loop [x] (let [x y] (recur))
16:29	kotarak	oops
16:29	kotarak	first x should b y
16:29	kotarak	be
16:29	osaunders	That could be simplified to (loop [x y] (recur))
16:30	osaunders	Loop does binding.
16:30	kotarak	osaunders: then it doesn't correspond to the fn you gave
16:30	osaunders	clojure.org/special_forms says: "loop is exactly like let, except that it establishes a recursion point at the top of the loop"
16:30	kotarak	(fn [y] (recur))
16:31	osaunders	Wait a second.
16:32	osaunders	((fn [x] (recur)) y)
16:32	osaunders	Yeah I think that's what I want.
16:32	osaunders	So I'm saying now: ((fn [x] (recur)) y) == (loop [x y] (recur))
16:33	kotarak	Effectively, yes but not really.
16:33	osaunders	Apart from the class thing/
16:33	osaunders	*?
16:33	kotarak	As Chousuke said above: fn does not work with primitives
16:33	kotarak	(it does work, but boxing happens => slow)
16:34	osaunders	Could you explain that.
16:34	osaunders	What's a primitive and boxing?
16:34	tomoj	also the fn version is ugly :)
16:34	tomoj	uh, but macro, yeah
16:34	Chousuke	java has two kinds of variables. primitives, and references
16:34	kotarak	Java has primitives and corresponding clases. A primitive is a value, but not an object.
16:34	kotarak	5
16:34	Chousuke	int, char, long etc. are primitives.
16:34	kotarak	boxing means wrapping this values into class objects.
16:35	kotarak	Since all invokation interfaces are based on objects you can't pass in primitives.
16:35	kotarak	They have to be boxed.
16:36	osaunders	So loop exists for performance reasons only,
16:36	Chousuke	that, and to avoid generating useless classes
16:36	kotarak	exactly
16:36	osaunders	Kinda wanky.
16:36	osaunders	Sorry, I'm not used to JVM languages.
16:37	osaunders	Why does fn need to generate a class rather than just an instance of a class?
16:37	kotarak	osaunders: theoretical elegance is sacrificed if necessary in Clojure. It has a very practical point of view.
16:38	osaunders	kotarak: But it's not necessary.
16:38	Chousuke	osaunders: how would you have different code for each instance of the class?
16:38	Chousuke	the java system is not designed for that.
16:38	osaunders	Well code is data :-P
16:38	kotarak	plus the closed over values
16:39	Chousuke	osaunders: in clojure, yeah, but eventually it needs to be compiled to jvm bytecode.
16:39	osaunders	Lame
16:39	Chousuke	you're being unnecessarily negative about it :P
16:39	osaunders	Well, that's subjective.
16:40	osaunders	Thanks for all the info though.
16:40	Chousuke	and you can actually have multiple instances of the same function (== class)
16:40	Chousuke	for example, if you have a function that returns a lambda, then there will only be one class for the lambda, but new instances for each call of the factory function.
16:40	osaunders	You can have multiple copies of an object too.
16:41	osaunders	But we're arguing now.
16:41	Chousuke	and those instances will have different instance attributes.
16:41	Chousuke	they won't be copies of each other.
16:41	tomoj	why do you care whether it's a special form or macro anyway?
16:41	Chousuke	fn actually is a macro :D
16:41	Chousuke	(the special form is fn*)
16:42	Chousuke	and even that might go away
16:42	tomoj	I meant loop
16:42	Chousuke	since apparently it should be possible to implement fn* with newnew
16:43	osaunders	It's hard for me to explain why I care.
16:43	osaunders	But this kind of low level elegance or absence of is important in language design.
16:43	kotarak	osaunders: try, we are patient. :)
16:44	Chousuke	osaunders: true, but clojure is already very elegant.
16:44	osaunders	I think it's probably best articulated in Paul Graham's Hundred Year Language essay.
16:44	Chousuke	osaunders: loop is just a practical choice to solve a problem.
16:45	Chousuke	if a better solution comes up, loop may well become a macro in the future.
16:45	Chousuke	but for now, it's a special form
16:45	kotarak	As I said: Clojure has a very practical point of view.
16:45	osaunders	Chousuke: loop was created to workaround a problem that in other situations wouldn't exist at all.
16:45	Chousuke	osaunders: what other situations?
16:46	osaunders	If Clojure wasn't implemented on top of the JVM.
16:46	tomoj	that would be terrible
16:46	kotarak	Chousuke: no autoboxing and TCO support
16:46	osaunders	tomoj: Why?
16:46	Chousuke	osaunders: but if Clojure weren't implemented on top of the JVM it would be pointless :)
16:46	tomoj	JVM is part of the whole point imo
16:46	Chousuke	osaunders: see arc :P
16:46	tomoj	access to java libraries is _awesome_
16:46	tomoj	bad libraries are a big problem for a custom lisp
16:47	osaunders	Chousuke: I haven't looked at Arc.
16:47	osaunders	I think you guys may well be right.
16:48	Chousuke	in the end, programming languages are nothing but tools
16:48	osaunders	The cost of needing things like loop is greatly dwarfed by the benefits of being on the JVM.
16:48	tomoj	I think clojure would be nowhere close to where it is today without java
16:48	Chousuke	using the JVM as a basis was a practical decision that ensured Clojure has value as a tool.
16:48	osaunders	Chousuke: No, programming languages are more than tools. They are a means of expression.
16:48	Chousuke	osaunders: but before that, they are tools.
16:48	Chousuke	the elegance in the implementation comes AFTER that.
16:49	osaunders	Well it depends how you look at it.
16:49	osaunders	If you want something that does a job, then it's a tool.
16:49	Chousuke	I see Clojure as a rather succesfull attempt to bring elegance to the JVM.
16:50	Chousuke	sure there are warts. but no language is without them
16:50	osaunders	If you want something that provides a nice way of thinking and expressing problems/computation then it's a language.
16:50	kotarak	That does not depend on the ugliness under the hood...
16:50	osaunders	Yes, and so far Clojure has far fewer warts than any language I've encountered.
16:50	osaunders	kotarak: I don't agree.
16:51	tomoj	a programming language that is a great means of expression but a useless tool will have few users
16:51	Chousuke	And hopefully Clojure will become popular and drive the JVM to improve as well!
16:51	osaunders	tomoj: Sure.
16:51	osaunders	I'm being impractical, granted. Maybe I'm an idealist.
16:52	tomoj	like, how many people without PhD's ever _use_ the lambda calculus?
16:52	Anniepoo	I'm totally disinterested in learning a toy language. I need to get real work done.
16:53	Anniepoo	I started looking at Clojure and was blown away that the first tutorial I found
16:53	osaunders	If you want to get stuff done why bother learning Clojure at all. Java will do all this stuff anyway.
16:53	Chousuke	Clojure is interesting in that it's almost as attractive as the neatest of the toy languages, while maintaining a lot of the practicality.
16:53	Chousuke	of non-toy languages, that is.
16:53	osaunders	Chousuke: Right. Clojure is a great balance.
16:53	kotarak	osaunders: turing tar pit alert....
16:53	Anniepoo	osaunders, you are wrong
16:54	Anniepoo	fact - I got interested in Clojure
16:54	osaunders	It is despite your arguments very elegant.
16:54	osaunders	(Clojure)
16:54	Chousuke	osaunders: java will do it, but you're going to rip your hair out making java do it :P
16:54	Anniepoo	I needed to write a Swing GUI
16:54	Anniepoo	short time frame
16:54	tomoj	why use Java? assembly will do it.
16:55	Anniepoo	feeling it'd be professionally irresponsible to do it in 'my new toy', I started writing in Java
16:55	Anniepoo	I get into it a ways, see I'll never make it
16:55	kotarak	Why assembly? We can wrote down 0s and 1s directly! (turing tar pit alert...)
16:55	Anniepoo	In desperation, I switch to Clojure
16:56	Anniepoo	I'm late 1 week finishing, abotu the same amount I spent on the failed Java attempt
16:56	osaunders	All I'm saying is that language elegance is important. For the same reason why Clojure is a better language than Java. There's a balance. For all of you Clojure is it. Clojure is elegant enough and practical enough. Chousuke said it. All I'm trying to highlight is there are these places where Clojure's elegance is held back by the practicalities you celebrate. I don't mean to suggest that makes Clojure a bad language.
16:56	Chousuke	osaunders: I think we all agree on that.
16:57	osaunders	Chousuke: Yeah I think we do :-)
16:57	Chousuke	If you can think of practical ways to make Clojure more elegant, I'm sure everyone will want to hear it!
16:57	Anniepoo	I describe Clojure to other (mostly java) programmers I know as "the lisp guys finally grew up"
16:58	osaunders	Chousuke: I'm always on the look out. So far, so good though.
17:00	osaunders	Unfortunately in order for me to find these places where the practicality over elegance compromise has been made I have to dig a bit before I can definitely say that elegance has been compromised. Before I started asking about loop I was expecting there to be a reason of elegance behind it's existence. That digging combined with the identification of that compromise seems to piss people off a bit. Which is a shame. I don't mean to do that.
17:00	JAS415	lisp guys never grow up
17:01	osaunders	JAS415: Mostly I find people don't grow up. I include myself.
17:01	JAS415	true
17:04	Anniepoo	I grew up once. Fortunately, I got over it
17:05	osaunders	Anniepoo: lolz
17:05	osaunders	Heard of Peter Pans?
17:07	Anniepoo	well, I was a typical programmer
17:07	osaunders	http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/21/f-vp-handler.html
17:07	Anniepoo	about 2000 I burnt out badly
17:07	Anniepoo	drove a cab for two years
17:07	Anniepoo	now I do interesting programming
17:08	osaunders	Good for you.
17:08	Anniepoo	if it's not interesting I still have an A card
17:08	osaunders	I'm fairly dissatisfied with the software development industry myself.
17:08	osaunders	Although more with myself.
17:08	Anniepoo	cool
17:10	Anniepoo	I work in Second Life, writing Clojure to support learning in Virtual Worlds
17:10	Anniepoo	I make less than a bus driver
17:10	Anniepoo	8cD
17:11	osaunders	What a strange world we live in.
17:11	Anniepoo	I don't care that I don't make a lot - I spend most of my waking hours in a virtual world anyway
17:11	tomoj	you can write clojure in SL?
17:11	rlb	A key point for loop is exactly that (TCO) -- otherwise you can't recurse without exploding the stack.
17:11	osaunders	I don't really know much about Second Life.
17:11	rlb	(in java)
17:12	Anniepoo	no, you have to write the in world stuff in LSL, but it's like javascript and the web
17:12	rlb	s/without exploding/without risking exploding/
17:12	Anniepoo	you get out of that world as fast as you can
17:12	rlb	And scheme has a similar syntax (let loop bindings form+)
17:12	tomoj	I know someone else who works in SL
17:13	Anniepoo	yah? Not too many of us
17:13	tomoj	I think for a dept at my university
17:13	rlb	Though scheme really doesn't need it since it guarantees TCO.
17:13	Anniepoo	ah, cool
17:13	Anniepoo	I work for U of Houston
17:13	technomancy	Is there a reason map and filter and friends need a clojure.lang.IFn while alter just needs a Callable?
17:14	Anniepoo	If I give you a key to the UH-HHP builder bot you could use Clojure to manipulate SL
17:15	Anniepoo	I'm finishing up the bridge now
17:15	tomoj	so you do it by writing bots in clojure?
17:16	Anniepoo	I have a command line driven bot I wrote in C#
17:16	kotarak	technomancy: alter takes a IFn in my version...
17:16	Anniepoo	and an in-world prim making robot that acts as an HTTP server
17:17	Anniepoo	and clojure code that has my business logic
17:17	Anniepoo	and a clojure GUI desktop app, so I can draw out what I want to make without doing it one prim at a time
17:17	Anniepoo	cause I make a lot of repetitive stuff
17:17	tomoj	nice
17:18	Anniepoo	the C# bot uploads resources like textures
17:18	Anniepoo	for example, I make these stepped 'concept plates'
17:18	technomancy	kotarak: you're right. oddly enough you can use JRuby procs with alter though.
17:18	technomancy	but not with map
17:19	Anniepoo	reports back the SL internal UUID
17:19	Anniepoo	and then the clojure code uses that to order the bot to make something and texture it
17:22	rlb	So any thoughts about why "wget URL" would get something different from (copy (reader URL) (writer FILENAME))?
17:23	tomoj	rlb: encoding problems? dunno
17:24	rlb	Yeah, it's looking like it.
17:26	Anniepoo	anybody know, if I start a command in the minibuffer in emacs and want to abort, how I do it?
17:26	dnolen	C-g C-g, ESC ESC
17:26	dnolen	but you have to be in the minibuffer I believe
17:26	Anniepoo	thanks
17:27	Anniepoo	no, I mean I start to type C-c C-f som ... oops, didn't want to do that
17:27	rlb	C-g should nearly always "get you out" of whatever's going on in emacs.
17:28	Anniepoo	thanks
17:30	Anniepoo	emacs is still the horror I left behind back when phones had cords
17:30	tomoj	just takes a bit of getting used to :)
17:31	Anniepoo	moving a block of code with the mark commands is NOT as convenient as drag and drop
17:31	rlb	Anniepoo: it is if you don't want to reach for the mouse ;>
17:32	rlb	Anniepoo: also newer emacs may support what you want.
17:32	rlb	Not sure.
17:33	Anniepoo	no drag and drop, but there's cut copy paste on the winders version
17:33	rlb	Also I find C-space C-s M-w pretty good much of the time.
17:33	Anniepoo	I'm just totally in suspicious of the dog that bit me mode
17:33	rlb	i.e. mark, incremental search to other end, then copy (or cut).
17:34	rlb	C-r if you need to go backwards
17:34	Anniepoo	C-space?
17:34	technomancy	back when I thought PHP was awesome. =)
17:34	rlb	Anniepoo: sets the mark
17:34	rlb	i.e. start the block
17:35	rlb	same as C-@ I think
17:35	rlb	(but much easier to type)
17:36	rlb	Also some of the new bits in emacs 23 are quite interesting (IMO). "emacs --daemon", for example.
17:39	technomancy	I wonder why alter would accept a JRuby proc as an IFn but map would not.
17:39	technomancy	strange
17:39	Anniepoo	is there something like IntelliJ's ctrl-] ? (which extends the selection to the next node up in the parse tree of the current language)
17:39	technomancy	ah... aliasing call to invoke in Proc fixes it
17:40	technomancy	oops, never mind
17:40	rlb	Anniepoo: I think clojure-mode probably allows the normal emacs code traversal commands.
17:41	rlb	Anniepoo: I don't know if you can use something like ebrowse with clojure.
17:41	Anniepoo	happy happy joy juy
17:42	Anniepoo	g/juy/s//joy/p
17:42	Anniepoo	(see, still remembers QED, with horror)
17:43	rlb	Anniepoo: see "editing programs" in the emacs info pages.
17:44	Anniepoo	thanks
17:44	Anniepoo	I'm going to spend today reading all the emacs docs and I'm making flash cards
17:44	Anniepoo	8cD
17:45	Anniepoo	maybe I'll make a moodle course for editing Clojure in emacs when I'm done
17:46	rlb	Anniepoo: there's also slime, which people seem to like, though I haven't really looked in to it yet. I still do things the hard way most of the time.
17:47	Anniepoo	ok, so when I get through with basic emacs learning, my choices are slime or soemthing called 'clojure mode'?
17:49	tomoj	slime is good _with_ clojure mode
17:51	tomoj	you can compile clojure source files and then play with the results in the slime repl
17:51	tomoj	Anniepoo: http://technomancy.us/126 is a good start
17:51	rlb	Anniepoo: clojure-mode.clj is what makes it so that when you open a file ending in .clj, the major mode switches to clojure-mode, and then emacs knows specifically about clojure syntax, etc.
17:53	bitbckt	Anniepoo: also from technomancy is http://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
17:54	bitbckt	Anniepoo: install that and M-x clojure-install will get you up and running with SLIME + clojure
17:54	tomoj	except I think you have to install slime beforehand separately, right?
17:54	bitbckt	tomoj: No.
17:54	tomoj	nice :)
17:54	bitbckt	Quite. :-)
17:57	Anniepoo	ok, hang on folks
17:57	osaunders	What's the difference between = and ==?
17:57	Anniepoo	so is there someplace special I should git technomancy's emacs starter kit to?
17:58	bitbckt	Anniepoo: ~/.emacs.d
17:58	Chousuke	osaunders: == is for comparing numbers. it's faster.
17:58	Anniepoo	winders
17:59	bitbckt	Uhm... C:\Documents and Settings\<user>\Application Data\...
17:59	bitbckt	something
17:59	osaunders	Is == Java == and = Java .equal()?
17:59	Chousuke	osaunders: no :/
17:59	Chousuke	osaunders: identical? is java ==
17:59	Chousuke	== maps to a special method in clojure.lang.Numbers or something
17:59	osaunders	Oh OK.
18:00	bitbckt	Anniepoo: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/Installing-Emacs.html
18:00	bitbckt	Section 3.5
18:00	Chousuke	that fft person on the forums is getting obnoxious. ;/
18:00	Chousuke	on the group, rather :P
18:01	bitbckt	The P.S. really makes it.
18:01	Chousuke	he's started cc'ing people because he thinks Chouser is censoring his posts. :(
18:02	Chousuke	And you know, I'm starting to think he should be censored.
18:02	osaunders	Is this the Clojure group you're talking about?
18:04	bitbckt	osaunders: Yes.
18:04	osaunders	What is he saying?
18:04	Chousuke	he's got something against Rich for saying in his talks that Clojure is fast.
18:05	Chouser	oh, please please don't copy his statements here. They're on the group if you want to read them.
18:05	Anniepoo	<bitbckt> Anniepoo: install that and M-x clojure-install will get you up and running with SLIME + clojure
18:05	osaunders	OK.
18:05	bitbckt	Anniepoo: ?
18:05	Chouser	just search for fft, you'll find all of it.
18:05	Anniepoo	that's not working
18:05	bitbckt	Explain.
18:05	Chousuke	He's not being very friendly about it, so apparently Chouser censored some of his posts, and now he thinks the mods are out to suppress him. ;/
18:05	Anniepoo	M-x clojure-install says [no match]
18:06	bitbckt	tinfoil hat types are endlessly amusing, to me
18:06	Chousuke	but now he's spamming my inbox.
18:06	Chousuke	and I do not appreciate that.
18:06	bitbckt	Anniepoo: Then it probably didn't load the init.el properly
18:06	bitbckt	Where did you extract the starter kit?
18:07	Anniepoo	C:\Documents and Settings\Annie\Application Data\.emacs.d
18:07	Anniepoo	but in .emacs.d I now have auto-save-list and emacs-starter-kit directories
18:07	rlb	Hmm, I think I need to learn more about java network operations -- using an explicit urlconnection via url.openconnection, etc. works fine. duck-streams don't. I assume it's probably a text/html vs binary issue.
18:08	Anniepoo	the starter kit dir has .git, elpa, and elpa-to-submit
18:08	bitbckt	Anniepoo: You need the emacs-starter-key to be your .emacs.d
18:08	bitbckt	Not be within it.
18:08	bitbckt	s/key/kit/
18:17	Anniepoo	ok, got it to install
18:18	osaunders	Readline support for the REPL would be really nice.
18:19	tomoj	use slime :P
18:19	tomoj	or I think you can do something with JLine
18:19	Anniepoo	sliming away here
18:19	bitbckt	Anniepoo: :-)
18:19	tomoj	Anniepoo: you may need to tweak your paredit
18:20	osaunders	tomoj: OK, thanks.
18:20	Anniepoo	ok, before tweaking anything need to get some stuff installed and figure out what I'm doing
18:20	tomoj	mine didn't have bindings for paredit-wrap-square or paredit-wrap-curly
18:21	Anniepoo	ah, OK
18:21	tomoj	learning paredit would probably be a good idea sometime too
18:21	tomoj	http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.html
18:21	rlb	exec java -cp /usr/share/java/jline-0.9.94.jar:/usr/share/java/clojure.jar:/usr/share/java/asm3-commons.jar:/usr/share/java/asm3.jar jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.lang.Repl ...
18:22	rlb	i.e. in a #!/bin/bash script
18:22	Anniepoo	ok, lunch, then all this
18:22	tomoj	what's the asm stuff for?
18:23	rlb	and you probably want "$@" instead of ...
18:23	rlb	tomoj: not sure -- I was under the impression that clojure needed that for compilation
18:23	tomoj	ah
18:23	rlb	I just copied that from the debian /usr/bin/clojure-repl (which doesn't use jline)
18:23	tomoj	I haven't tried any advanced stuff yet
18:24	tomoj	you mean like AOT complation?
18:24	rlb	not sure
18:34	Chousuke	heh
18:34	rlb	Got it. The problem was that duck-stream (copy in out) doesn't do a binary copy if "in" is a reader. So instead of (reader url) you have to manually create the InputStream, i.e. (.openStream (URL. url)).
18:34	Chousuke	I guess they should be called seq comprehensions in clojure :P
18:35	rlb	I think it was doing a Character/TYPE copy -- not quite what I wanted.
18:35	mebaran151	I always thought the for macro was a little too heavy weight
18:35	osaunders	Chousuke: shrug
18:35	mebaran151	I prefer to map filter and reduce my way to fame and fortune
18:35	Chousuke	mebaran151: you mean the implementation or the usage of it?
18:36	mebaran151	a little of both
18:36	Chousuke	because the implementation is something unbeliveable :P
18:36	mebaran151	the macro has a little too much magic in it
18:36	tomoj	I have this idea that it's idiomatic to have a function foo which reduces with a function foo*. true or false?
18:36	tomoj	don't know where I got that idea
18:36	Chousuke	mebaran151: all sufficiently complex macros have a lot of magic in them.
18:36	mebaran151	foo* is usually like a reduce private version of the function
18:36	tomoj	great, that's what I thought
18:36	Chousuke	mebaran151: the point is, it's done for you already so you don't have to do it yourself :)
18:36	mebaran151	that's why avoid sufficiently complex macros, especially when something like filter map and reduce are pretty good
18:37	mebaran151	I don't think for makes my code any clearer than a sequence of mappings and filterings
18:37	osaunders	Where is str-join defined?
18:37	Chousuke	I mean, for works, there's little doubt of that.
18:37	tomoj	osaunders: clojure.contrib.str-utils
18:38	osaunders	OK. I think I need to read about libs now.
18:38	tomoj	it's a fairly simple function
18:38	Chousuke	mebaran151: the (IMO) best answer to the clojure golf on the group uses for, though :P
18:39	mebaran151	but debugging a magical macro can get irksome very quickly
18:39	Chousuke	yeah but you don't need to debug for :P
18:39	tomoj	(apply str (interpose \, seq))
18:39	Chousuke	it's done and debugged already.
18:39	mebaran151	I meant things you do in for
18:39	mebaran151	macros obscure the logic
18:40	Chousuke	... at least until someone goes and adds chunked seq support for it.
18:40	Chousuke	hmm, I guess.
18:40	rlb	OK, I need to stop this and go work on emacs23 or similar... Thanks all.
18:40	mebaran151	what are chunked seqs?
18:41	Chousuke	mebaran151: a recent improvement by Rich that allows you to take advantage of the internal structure of some of the persistent data structures (vectors and maps I guess)
18:42	tomoj	just found a pdf about them http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/chunks.pdf?gda=WIF8ADwAAAC-wnUK1KQ919yJcmM1ACuZUsYXlXWR5Y8qvjzEXQCX1uwyCdwt79_BXi8-B36MGsn9Wm-ajmzVoAFUlE7c_fAt
18:43	Chousuke	I guess chunked seqs are mostly hidden inside the seq functions.
18:43	mebaran151	so wouldn't for automagically use them?
18:43	mebaran151	because it just expands to a bunch of map and filters right?
18:43	Chousuke	~def for
18:43	Chousuke	ah, damn
18:43	Chousuke	but no, for doesn't expand to a bunch of maps and filters :)
18:44	osaunders	Nested recursive loops.
18:45	osaunders	At a guess.
18:45	mebaran151	it seems like you could do much of it using a bunch of map and filter though
18:45	Chousuke	well, hm.
18:45	mebaran151	though I've never really explored for in detail enough
18:46	Anniepoo	When it's done, it will configure SLIME and swank-clojure, and it will give you instructions on a few lines to add to your personal config (usually found in $HOME/.emacs.d/init.el) so it will work for future sessions.
18:46	osaunders	As soon as you have more than one sequence in for you're doing more than map can do.
18:46	Anniepoo	8cI got no instructions
18:46	osaunders	(I think)
18:46	mebaran151	map can take multiple seqs if I remember correctly
18:46	osaunders	Yeah but they don't work in the same way at all.
18:46	osaunders	,(map + [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
18:46	lisppaste8	tomoj pasted "mexpanded for" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85460
18:47	osaunders	Where's clojurebot?
18:47	Anniepoo	and M-x slime => [no match]
18:47	mebaran151	osaunders, that does exactly what I would expect
18:47	Anniepoo	clojurebot got roaring drunk at a bar and went home with an Alice based chatterbot
18:47	mebaran151	later they cybered
18:48	mebaran151	osaunders, it returns '(2 4 6)
18:48	osaunders	mebaran151: Now compare with (doall (for [x [1 2 3], y [1 2 3]] (+ x y)))
18:48	osaunders	mebaran151: To see what's going on: (doall (for [x my-list, y my-list] [x y]))
18:48	Anniepoo	(purred she (str "Oooh!" (fully (functional you))))
18:49	Chousuke	mebaran151: but with for you can do (for [x [1 2 3] y [1 2 3] :when (= 5 (+ x y))] [x y])
18:49	mebaran151	I see
18:49	Chousuke	gives you ([2 3] [3 2])
18:49	mebaran151	it does a cartesian product
18:49	osaunders	Chousuke: Nice.
18:49	tomoj	you'd need contrib's combinatorics to easily get away without for, huh?
18:50	Chousuke	mebaran151: with :when, yes.
18:50	Chousuke	mebaran151: there's also :while for stopping early
18:50	Chousuke	and :let for binding arbitrary stuff in the expression
18:50	Chousuke	it's very powerful
18:50	mebaran151	the stopping early is the one thing that you probably couldn't do with map and reduce
18:50	osaunders	for reads the keyword?
18:50	mebaran151	but you could easily get the combinations with reduce
18:50	osaunders	s/reads/checks/
18:51	Chousuke	mebaran151: reduce is not lazy though ./
18:51	Chousuke	osaunders: yeah. the keywords are part of for's syntax
18:51	mebaran151	oh
18:51	mebaran151	I didn't think of that
18:51	mebaran151	I should appreciate for more
18:51	osaunders	lol
18:51	osaunders	Sounds like you do already.
18:51	mebaran151	but I gotta admit, there's a lot of magic going on
18:51	Chousuke	yeah.
18:51	mebaran151	and I'm suspicious of any macro that I couldn't sketch out myself
18:52	Chousuke	then again, even in plain lets and defns there is a lot of magic going on.
18:52	osaunders	Are list comprehensions a math thing?
18:52	Chousuke	ever checked out the destructure function?
18:52	mebaran151	I also try to avoid destructuring :)
18:52	osaunders	I mean did they originate in math?
18:52	mebaran151	though I just started using it, and I got admit
18:52	Chousuke	why? it's great.
18:52	tomoj	for was pretty useful to me for finding pythagorean triples
18:52	mebaran151	it's very convenient
18:52	osaunders	Chousuke: What does it do?
18:53	mebaran151	sure beats firsting and seconding everything
18:53	Anniepoo	hhmmm....
18:53	Chousuke	osaunders: the destructure function is what the destructuring macros use to... destructure their argument forms :P
18:54	osaunders	I'm not even close to understanding how macros work.
18:54	Chousuke	osaunders: eg, with (let [[x y z] triple] ...) the destructure function is what transforms the [[x y z] triple] into something like [x (nth 0 triple) y (nth 1 triple) z (nth 2 triple)]
18:54	mebaran151	yeah
18:55	Chousuke	osaunders: they take in clojure code, do arbitrary transformation with it, and the result is what gets executed.
18:55	mebaran151	I do a lot of packing things into vector tuples
18:55	Chousuke	remember, clojure code is just a data structure
18:55	mebaran151	so destructing is actually a very convenient way
18:55	tomoj	yeah, I do that too
18:55	mebaran151	to get at those things
18:55	mebaran151	but I just as often use (first x) (second x) etc
18:55	tomoj	with the value reduce carries around
18:56	osaunders	Is destructure a representative name to what it does?
18:56	osaunders	Seems to be a kind of map from what you've told me so far.
18:57	Chousuke	osaunders: well, it's not a public function. but it's the magic behind clojure's destructuring :)
18:57	tomoj	it's called destructuring in other languages too
18:57	osaunders	OK, what is destructuring in general then?
18:57	tomoj	like a,b = [7,3] in ruby
18:57	tomoj	except it's more flexible in clojure
18:58	osaunders	Oh OK.
18:58	osaunders	Anything in common with pattern matching?
18:58	tomoj	it nests arbitrarily deeply
18:58	Chousuke	osaunders: the primitive let* special form can only handle bindings in the form [a 1 b 2 c 3 ...]. destructure is used in the let macro to transform the complicated binding vector into the simple sequential form
18:59	tomoj	osaunders: http://clojure.blip.tv/
18:59	tomoj	the two on data structures are good
18:59	rlb	osaunders: somewhat related to pattern matching, I'd say, yes.
18:59	tomoj	haven't gotten to the rest yet
19:00	mebaran151	list comprehensions were originally a python thing right?
19:00	Chousuke	probably not :P
19:00	osaunders	I know them from Haskell.
19:00	Chousuke	though I wonder which language had them first.
19:00	osaunders	I was asking if they came from Mathematics because most stuff in Haskell does.
19:00	Chousuke	but if your language is less than 50 years old, chances are it wasn't the first at anything.
19:00	tomoj	wikipedia says ones I've never heard of
19:01	tomoj	SETL, AXIOM, NPL
19:01	mebaran151	the wiki says it's based on set-builder notation
19:02	Chousuke	heh.
19:02	Anniepoo	8cX how do I know I'm in clojsure mode?
19:02	Chousuke	set comprehension for clojure: (set (for ...)) :P
19:02	mebaran151	I always wished sql worked more like that
19:02	mebaran151	I actually finished my little library for using bdb like a giant lazy list
19:02	tomoj	Anniepoo: it should say "Clojure" on the mode line
19:02	mebaran151	that fetches records in a variable chunksize
19:02	tomoj	though in slime it won't
19:03	mebaran151	it's been really convenient for just running a filter and then asking for a take on it
19:03	osaunders	mebaran151: You can say SELECT * FROM table1, table2 WHERE table1id = table2id
19:03	mebaran151	it never felt natural
19:03	mebaran151	especially for mapping
19:03	osaunders	Instead of LEFT JOIN
19:04	mebaran151	try to get sql to match where colb is 4*col a
19:04	mebaran151	or something like that
19:04	osaunders	colb?
19:04	osaunders	Column?
19:04	mebaran151	yeah
19:04	mebaran151	where the value in col b is 4 times the value of col a
19:04	mebaran151	it's doable
19:04	mebaran151	but it's nasty
19:05	osaunders	WHERE 4 * a = b?
19:05	mebaran151	and sometimes the sql engine will forgo optimizing this sort of query with an index
19:05	mebaran151	on a join?
19:05	Chousuke	I think I'll take thetime to learn paredit mode
19:05	Chousuke	I tried using it in slime and it was pretty nice
19:06	osaunders	I dunno really. I'm no SQL expert. SQL isn't a very nice language. It's barely a language at all in fact.
19:06	mebaran151	yeah, I had to do some DBA
19:06	mebaran151	and it's nasty
19:06	Chousuke	though it was somewhat difficult to tell which s-expr I was editing at which time because of all the closing parens :P
19:06	osaunders	I consider SQL to be a user inferface not a language.
19:06	replaca	Chousuke: paredit is awesome. Makes emacs feel like a structure editor
19:06	osaunders	SQI, if you like.
19:06	mebaran151	I have a layer on top of berkeleydb that lets me lazily evaulate a collection of bdb's and treat them as a table
19:07	mebaran151	and do all sorts of lazy filtering and mapping on them
19:07	osaunders	Sounds cool.
19:07	mebaran151	it's nice to pretend your tables are just an infinite list of tuples
19:08	osaunders	They kinda are.
19:08	osaunders	Or at least they should be.
19:08	mebaran151	yep
19:08	mebaran151	internally I chunk fetches, so it's actually fairly performant, and using clojure it was incredibly simple to write
19:09	osaunders	Make a video! :-)
19:24	osaunders	Does anyone know what the mdworker process is in OS X?
19:25	osaunders	Oh yeah Google. Duh.
19:32	mebaran151	I'm gonna blog it up
19:33	mebaran151	the code is on github if anybody's interested
19:33	mebaran151	*bitbucket
19:33	Anniepoo	gotta say, this is certainly nonintuitive
19:34	mebaran151	Chousuke, the example in common lisp of basic list comprehensions uses map and filter essentially
19:35	Anniepoo	I installed the clojure-mode. It ran something when I did it, but now it just treats a new foo.clj buffer as plaintext
19:35	mebaran151	sight, fighting emacs can be such a terrible pain
19:35	mebaran151	Anniepoo, you abandoned IntelliJ?
19:36	Anniepoo	no, though Fossi made good arguments for trying emacs
19:36	Anniepoo	I try not to be 'dedicated' to anything,
19:36	tomoj	Anniepoo: you did M-x clojure-install?
19:36	osaunders	I like Anniepoo already.
19:36	Anniepoo	yes, I did that
19:37	Anniepoo	osaunders, ask on this list abotu projector support in unix ;c)
19:37	tomoj	did you add a clojure-slime-config to your username.el?
19:37	Anniepoo	no
19:37	mebaran151	I think sticking with one tool can be a pretty good strategy
19:37	mebaran151	tool jumping can just be painful at times
19:38	Anniepoo	I agree mebaran
19:38	tomoj	inside emacs.d with the starter kit if you make a username.el (where username is your username) it will be loaded on startup
19:38	tomoj	not sure how that works with windows
19:38	Anniepoo	ok
19:38	mebaran151	I wouldnt' say be religious about it, but i fyou got a working IDE setup, it's rarely that worth it to chane for ti's own sake
19:39	mebaran151	projectors are easy to use if you're running a nvidia graphics card on linux
19:39	tomoj	Anniepoo: C-h v user-login-name
19:39	tomoj	use that with .el
19:39	mebaran151	I was incredibly surprised how simple nvidia made it by not skimping out on the hardware :)
19:39	tomoj	then add (clojure-slime-config "/path/to/the/place/you/installed/clojure")
19:39	osaunders	Anniepoo: Why? Did you write it or something?
19:40	Anniepoo	the starter kit seems to not have installed clojure-mode or slime
19:40	tomoj	Anniepoo: e.g. I have clojure in /Users/thomasjack/code/clojure/src/clojure/, so I use /Users/thomasjack/code/clojure/src for the clojure-slime-config
19:40	tomoj	you need to get clojure-mode from elpa first of all
19:40	Anniepoo	osaunders: no, it's a joke - at a clojure talk everybody had a laptop, was supposed to do a 10 minute speed presentation
19:40	tomoj	otherwise you wont have a clojure-install to run, I believe
19:41	Anniepoo	instead every single one had trouble with unix and the projector
19:41	osaunders	Oh lol
19:41	Anniepoo	given how simple this is on winders, I had to laugh
19:41	Anniepoo	ah, ok
19:41	tomoj	even the mac people? odd
19:41	mebaran151	well X for the longest time assumed configuration was fairly static
19:41	Anniepoo	I've missed a step
19:41	mebaran151	only recently have they given up that delusion
19:41	tomoj	Anniepoo: M-x package-list-packages
19:42	Anniepoo	kk, hang on
19:42	mebaran151	nvidia is actually easier to get to work on linux than windows ironically
19:42	tomoj	Anniepoo: go to clojure mode and press i, then press x
19:42	mebaran151	intel still hasn't caught up
19:42	tomoj	Anniepoo: then you probably need to M-x load-library clojure-mode
19:42	tomoj	Anniepoo: then M-x clojure-install
19:43	Anniepoo	ok, hang on, how do I copy text out of emacs?
19:43	tomoj	"M-x load-library RET clojure-mode" rather
19:43	tomoj	depends on your emacs
19:44	osaunders	Yeah I think I'll leave you guys to your X and Emacs and all that jazz for a few years yet.
19:44	tomoj	for me it's the same as everything else here, cmd+c
19:44	tomoj	osaunders: are you on windows?
19:44	osaunders	Mac.
19:44	tomoj	you really should give clojure-mode+slime a try, I think
19:44	tomoj	it's easy with the starter kit and aquamacs
19:45	osaunders	I know bash well and I've got TextMate. Pretty happy with that. Not for Clojure mind but I probably won't do a lot of programming in Clojure.
19:45	tomoj	ah, well then getting clojure-mode+slime set up probably isn't worth it
19:46	Anniepoo	sorry, I got the package names
19:46	tomoj	I'm actually in the process of giving up textmate altogether for emacs
19:46	Anniepoo	but can't get them copied to paste into pastebot
19:46	tomoj	Anniepoo: what, clojure-mode isn't on the list?
19:48	Anniepoo	who freaking knows?
19:48	tomoj	well.. hopefully you would since the list is right there for you to see
19:48	Anniepoo	or at least one page of it
19:48	Anniepoo	8cD I'm not too good with emacs
19:48	Anniepoo	but managed to copy to notepad
19:48	tomoj	clojure-mode should be not too far down
19:49	Anniepoo	and yes, clojure-mode is on the list
19:49	tomoj	then, do what I said :)
19:49	tomoj	move the point down to the clojure-mode line (click or C-n down there)
19:49	tomoj	press "i"
19:49	tomoj	then press "x"
19:49	Anniepoo	did that
19:50	tomoj	ok, then try M-x load-library RET clojure-mode
19:50	tomoj	(where RET means press return)
19:50	Anniepoo	ok, ran some long script
19:50	tomoj	should say "loading ... done"
19:50	tomoj	as long as it doesn't say "Cannot open load file..." you should be good
19:51	tomoj	now try M-x clojure-install
19:51	tomoj	it should ask you for a path to install clojure to
19:51	Anniepoo	ok
19:51	Anniepoo	it is
19:51	Anniepoo	thanks for the walk thru, BTW
19:51	Anniepoo	accept the default?
19:51	tomoj	if you like it
19:52	tomoj	when it's done installing it should tell you what to add to your username.el
19:52	Anniepoo	briefly gave an installation failed message
19:52	tomoj	doh
19:52	Anniepoo	moving mouse over it erased it
19:53	tomoj	maybe some incompatibility with your windows version of emacs?
19:53	tomoj	I doubt much of this stuff is tested on windows
19:53	Anniepoo	at one point I was being encouraged to make an Annie.el file
19:53	tomoj	yeah, that's where you'd put the clojure-slime-config line
19:53	Anniepoo	that's never been done
19:54	tomoj	you wouldn't need to until after it installed anyway
19:54	tomoj	try M-x clojure-mode
19:54	tomoj	oh, well, that will probably work anyway
19:54	tomoj	but that doesn't mean your clojure/slime/etc is installed :(
19:54	Anniepoo	unmatched bracket or quote
19:55	tomoj	yeah, that's because you weren't in a clojure source buffer
19:55	tomoj	try M-x slime again I suppose
19:55	tomoj	though if it said installation failed that's probably the case
19:55	Anniepoo	hey, for some really bizarre reason now it's coloring my clojure test file I got here
19:55	Anniepoo	dunno what happened, but it worked
19:56	tomoj	M-x slime worked?
19:56	Anniepoo	I think it's clojure-mode
19:56	Anniepoo	I have syntax coloring and indenting
19:56	tomoj	ah, yeah
19:56	Chousuke	Emacs is really neat once you get into it.
19:57	Anniepoo	yah, this is actually the third time I'm learning it
19:57	Chousuke	the beginning is a hurdle though. it's not an easy tool.
19:57	Anniepoo	78-83 I used QED
19:57	tomoj	I imagine it's probably a less pleasant experience on windows as well
19:57	Anniepoo	84-87 I used PMATE
19:57	Anniepoo	QED is the line oriented ancestor of emacs
19:57	lowlycoder	anyone knows what rick hickey does for a living? (that allows him to work on clojure?)
19:58	Anniepoo	PMATE was a commercial version
19:58	Chousuke	I cloned someone's emacs.d from github as a basis for my emacs installation.
19:58	Chousuke	I got lots of neat features out of the box that I probably wouldn't have found otherwise :P
19:58	osaunders	lowlycoder: I think Clojure is a freetime hobby thing. I could be wrong though.
19:58	Anniepoo	so I should try M-x slime again?
19:58	Anniepoo	[no match]
19:58	tomoj	just to see if maybe it actually worked even though it said it didn't :)
19:59	tomoj	yeah, didn't work
19:59	tomoj	try C-x b Messages
19:59	Chousuke	lowlycoder: Rich used his savings while working on Clojure. That source of money is apparently used up now though.
19:59	tomoj	see if the install failure message is in there
19:59	lowlycoder	is there a donation page for him?
19:59	lowlycoder	i'm prety mpressed by clojure so far
20:01	Anniepoo	do it, lowlycoder - I'm sure several people on this IRC can give you an addy to send the money
20:02	Chousuke	lowlycoder: there's a donation button on clojure.org
20:04	Anniepoo	ok, tomoj, git'ing slime
20:04	Anniepoo	will put in .emacs.d and try M-x slime again, or do I need M-x clojure-install?
20:04	Anniepoo	and should I get swank first?
20:05	tomoj	uhh
20:05	tomoj	clojure-install is supposed to do everything for you I guess
20:06	tomoj	did you find the failure message?
20:07	Anniepoo	yah, I think it's not finding the packages somehow
20:07	Anniepoo	so I'm downloading them with these inistructions
20:07	Anniepoo	http://riddell.us/tutorial/slime_swank/slime_swank.html
20:08	tomoj	ah
20:08	tomoj	well you already have clojure-mode installed
20:08	Anniepoo	yes
20:08	Anniepoo	but I got it same way
20:08	tomoj	for the rest, put them in vendor
20:08	Anniepoo	ok, I got a bunch of lisp code
20:08	tomoj	then instead of editing .emacs, edit .emacs.d/Annie.el
20:08	Anniepoo	vendor?
20:09	tomoj	make a vendor dir in your .emacs.d
20:09	Anniepoo	kk
20:09	tomoj	and then you'll be doing stuff like (add-to-list 'load-path "/path/to/.emacs.d/vendor/slime")
20:12	Anniepoo	testing
20:12	tomoj	and replace the paths to clojure(-contrib)?.jar in that tutorial with whereever you really put them
20:18	Anniepoo	ok, so swank-clojure goes in vendor too?
20:18	Anniepoo	(hate doing this much voodoo)
20:18	tomoj	yup
20:18	Chousuke	it doesn't really matter where it goes I think. :P
20:18	Chousuke	as long as it is in load-path
20:19	tomoj	indeed
20:19	Anniepoo	ok, cool
20:19	tomoj	I heard somewhere that vendor/ was the conventional place for the starter kit
20:19	Chousuke	my stuff is scattered around ~/opt/lisp/, ~/.emacs.d/site-lisp/ etc.
20:19	Anniepoo	swank-clojure has two .el files and a directory swank in it
20:20	Chousuke	Anniepoo: you don't want to touch the contents of the dir. just put the whole dir somewhere and then add it to the load path
20:20	Anniepoo	ok
20:20	Anniepoo	making sure I got the dir and not the dir that contains the dir
20:21	Anniepoo	I have no .emacs file
20:22	tomoj	indeed, you should not
20:22	tomoj	as I said, use .emacs.d/Annie.el instead
20:22	Anniepoo	ah, thanks
20:22	Anniepoo	so add all the tutorial's boilerplate and update the paths
20:23	tomoj	yup
20:23	tomoj	and, don't forget to also update the paths to the clojure jars
20:25	Anniepoo	do I need to double the backslashes here?
20:26	osaunders	Baaaaccccccckslllaaaaaasssssshhhh
20:27	osaunders	It's got a nice ring to it.
20:27	osaunders	Or should that be shhling.
20:27	Chousuke	oh, and useful functions: M-x apropos, M-x describe-key, M-x describe-function
20:27	Chousuke	describe-key especially
20:27	Chousuke	just run it, hit some random combo and discover new stuff!
20:28	lisppaste8	Anniepoo pasted ".emacs.d" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85464
20:28	tomoj	it's C-h k here
20:28	tomoj	you've got an extra .emacs.d in the slime load path
20:29	tomoj	I dunno whether you need to escape the backslashes or not
20:29	Anniepoo	hate voodoo
20:29	tomoj	yes, I think you do
20:30	Anniepoo	need backslashes or hate voodoo?
20:30	tomoj	need extra backslashes
20:30	tomoj	here installing clojure-mode from elpa and doing M-x clojure-install made everything work fine
20:30	tomoj	didn't have to add anything to my username.el
20:31	Anniepoo	sorry, I'm stuck on winders
20:34	Anniepoo	ahh... the installer is failing because it can't find git
20:35	Anniepoo	but in theory it's all running now
20:36	Anniepoo	how do I get the buffer into a repl?
20:37	tomoj	M-x slime
20:37	tomoj	oh
20:37	tomoj	if you already have a repl up, go to the source buffer and C-c C-k
20:37	Anniepoo	it's doing something different with the indenting, and it's doing syntax coloring, and it says slime in the bar at the bottom
20:38	tomoj	ok, no go to a clojure source buffer with some function and C-c C-k
20:38	tomoj	then you should be able to call it in the repl
20:38	osaunders	Good night all.
20:39	Anniepoo	thanks for all the help
20:39	tomoj	working?
20:39	Anniepoo	this'd just be impossible on my own
20:40	Anniepoo	it' can't find my function
20:40	tomoj	well.. is it in a namespace?
20:40	Anniepoo	hmm
20:40	tomoj	otherwise something's not hooked up right
20:40	Anniepoo	I did M-x slime
20:40	tomoj	(i.e. do you have a call to ns at the top of your clojure source buffer)
20:40	Anniepoo	it asked if I wanted another repl
20:40	Anniepoo	yah, I didn't put one
20:41	Anniepoo	just (defn foo [x] (+ 3 x))
20:41	tomoj	maybe try restarting emacs if you haven't already
20:41	Anniepoo	ok
20:41	tomoj	just to be sure all the config is loaded
20:41	Anniepoo	can't get emacs to exit
20:43	Anniepoo	I'm doing a project for NASA, I'm reading a bunch of astronaut books for background
20:43	Anniepoo	somebody asked one what the most dangerous thing he ever did was, he said training student pilots
20:44	Anniepoo	feel like that today (like a dangerous student pilot)
20:44	Anniepoo	damn
20:44	Anniepoo	restarted and nothing loads
20:44	Anniepoo	no clojure mode no nothing
20:45	tomoj	hmm
20:46	tomoj	M-x clojure-mode says no match?
20:46	Anniepoo	no, that worked
20:46	tomoj	M-x slime says no match then?
20:46	Anniepoo	now I got the 2 space indent and syntax highlight
20:46	Anniepoo	ah, I see
20:54	fsm	Hello everyone.
20:55	fsm	Is there a way to solve the problem of having circular dependencies between two namespaces?
20:59	Anniepoo	going C-c C-k says not connected
20:59	Anniepoo	slime hung and I restarted
20:59	Anniepoo	now it's doing that
20:59	tomoj	something's wrong with your swank/slime config I suppose
20:59	Anniepoo	ok
20:59	cark	fsm : just don't do it
20:59	cark	fsm : or use callbacks
21:00	Anniepoo	there's a user's group meeting coming up
21:00	fsm	:)
21:00	Anniepoo	I'll get up to speed on emacs and hit up one of the emacs junkies to help me with it
21:00	fsm	my situation is, i have a ray-tracer in one namespace that calls shaders in another namespace
21:00	fsm	some of those shaders need to call the raytracer to do more shading
21:00	Anniepoo	ok
21:00	Anniepoo	fsm, each should 'use' the other
21:01	cark	which one is the boss ? raytracer or shaders ?
21:01	Anniepoo	neither
21:01	Anniepoo	you're in my address book
21:01	Anniepoo	I'm in your address book
21:01	fsm	they can't use each other because clojure silently stops when it hits the recursive 'uses'
21:01	fsm	as far as i can tell
21:01	fsm	raytracer is the boss, i guess
21:01	Anniepoo	I've got a mass of code in a dozen namespaces that mostly use each other
21:02	cark	when you call into the shaders, privide them with the raytracer functiobns they might use
21:02	Anniepoo	you can't forward reference - that one got me once or twice
21:03	cark	you're kinda defining an interface
21:03	cark	a protocol really
21:03	cark	lilike shaders are some kind of plugins
21:03	fsm	i get you
21:03	fsm	thanks, i will do that now
21:05	Anniepoo	I'm going to take a break and then do some cleanup on prim chalk
21:05	Anniepoo	ttyl
21:10	technomancy	Anniepoo: sorry, I don't have resources to test on Windows
21:10	technomancy	oh... she left.
21:14	fsm	thanks, all working now
21:14	fsm	have a virtual cup of tea on me: http://tu.be/graphics/teapot2.png
21:30	tomoj	am I supposed to write a build.xml by hand? O_o
22:34	fsm	I copied the build.xml from clojure-contrib and modified it
22:51	Anniepoo	try (nth 0 '[10 20 30]) in a repl, you'll find it throws a fairly unhelpful exception.
22:51	Anniepoo	minor bug
22:54	Anniepoo	never mind
22:54	Anniepoo	noobism strikes badly
23:02	tomoj	I do wish it said what the attempted cast was
23:03	tomoj	it seems all you know is that a vector was cast to something wrong
23:04	Anniepoo	I was trying (nth 0 '[10 20 30])
23:04	Anniepoo	but yes
23:04	tomoj	yeah
23:04	tomoj	so I guess it tried to cast that vector to an integer
23:05	tomoj	but it just says "....PersistentVector, ClassCastException"
23:05	dmiles	Anniepoo: you still working with LibOMV>
23:05	tomoj	rather than "Can't cast a PersistentVector to an Integer" or something useful
23:05	dmiles	Anniepoo: well secondlife
23:06	Anniepoo	I am still working with both of those
23:06	dmiles	are you writing the clientlib in clojure?
23:07	dmiles	or are you using ClojureCLR?
23:07	Anniepoo	neither, the libOMV bot is in C#, and I shell out to it
23:08	Anniepoo	compared to the time delay while it signs on, the delay for the process launch is trivial
23:08	dmiles	once its connected.. you use a socket?
23:08	dmiles	between clojure and the bot
23:08	Anniepoo	the bot?
23:09	dmiles	yeah
23:09	Anniepoo	no, the bot's a command line driven bot
23:09	Anniepoo	it just uploads textures
23:09	Anniepoo	so it gets filenames on stdin and responds iwth UUID's
23:09	dmiles	oh i see.. makes sense you can just batch it out
23:09	Anniepoo	yah, I don't want to play with the bot, it does it's job
23:09	Anniepoo	http://slurl.com/secondlife/HHP%20at%20UH/16/15/1001
23:10	Anniepoo	my current location
23:10	Anniepoo	sitting on a builder robot run by clojure
23:10	Anniepoo	fly!
23:19	dmiles	oh right on.. hrrm canty get above 167m
23:20	Anniepoo	need a flight feather? IM me , Annie Obscure