#clojure – 2009-08-14

2009-08-14

00:18	eyeris	I just installed vimclojure from bitbucket
00:18	eyeris	:scriptnames shows it loaded the scripts
00:18	eyeris	However the mappings, such as \ef, do not work.
00:19	eyeris	They are not displayed by :map <LocalLeader>
00:20	mikem`_	eyeris: i think those are only mapped when the nailgun server is running
00:21	eyeris	It is running
00:21	eyeris	NGServer started on 127.0.0.1, port 2113.
00:25	mikem`_	eyeris: ah yes, you also need to open a .clj file
00:25	mikem`_	s/file/buffer/
00:25	eyeris	I did.
00:26	mikem`_	and your ~/.vimrc has the relevant entries? clj_want_gorilla et al?
00:27	eyeris	I have the clj_want_gorilla set
00:27	mikem`_	ok, at this point I'm not sure. sorry
00:28	eyeris	np
00:46	eyeris	When I try to use the ng client from the cmd line I get
00:46	eyeris	clojure.contrib.pprint.PrettyWriter
00:46	eyeris	That exception is right on the vimclojure page.
00:47	eyeris	The explanation is that I didn't AOT compile clojure-contrib, but I did and the .jar is in my CP
00:51	eyeris	Fixed that.
00:52	durka42	what was it?
00:53	eyeris	clojure-contrib wasn't actually AOT compiling. It was just silently failing
00:53	eyeris	Though now I am CP hell...
00:55	eyeris	Yay! it works now!
01:24	clojure	i really like vimclojure, since it saves me from using emacs/slime
01:46	lrenn	i was just thinking how emacs + slime + paredit + clojure is the most fun I've ever had coding in my entire life.
01:51	albino	pretty bold statement there
03:25	lowlycoder	after typing in 'ant' in the clojure dir; it builds clojure for me ... however, how do I install clojure?
03:25	lowlycoder	I want it in /usr/local/whatever
03:30	arbscht	lowlycoder: I don't believe there is a standard way to do that. I set mine up roughly according to the debian java package conventions, and with a custom clj launcher
03:37	eevar2	lowlycoder: here's my install, stuffing all jars of interest in /opt/clojure-libs: http://pastebin.org/8749
03:38	eevar2	(except the compojure deps)
03:40	tomoj	so far I've just been unzipping clojure, clojure-contrib, and any jars a project depends on into project/target/dependency for clojure-project
03:40	tomoj	getting pretty annoying
03:41	mikem`_	eevar2: what do you put in your CLASSPATH variable then? how do you start the clojure REPL or clojure apps?
03:43	cschreiner	wish there was a one-click-installer for clojure
03:43	eevar2	mike: java -cp "/opt/clojure-libs/*" clojure.lang.Repl # should work, assuming you have java1.6+
03:44	eevar2	iirc 1.5 doesn't like * in the class path
03:46	mikem`_	eevar2:
03:46	mikem`_	eevar2: ok, cool, thanks for sharing :)
03:46	eevar2	http://pastebin.org/8946 # my real/current/working .emacs config. the one i pasted earlier might have been bogus
03:47	eevar2	i.e. not setting the class path correctly
03:48	tomoj	eevar2: if you have project-specific dependencies, do you add to swank-clojure-extra-classpaths for that project?
03:49	eevar2	neh, i just stuf the jars into my global library
03:49	tomoj	ah
03:49	eevar2	if for whatever reason you need to work with different versions of the same library, that might be an issue
03:49	tomoj	that would mean you never have to create special slime repls for different projects with different classpaths like clojure-project does... sounds like a good idea
04:00	JesterMonkey	Hello ?
04:02	tomoj	hello
04:14	eevar2	tomoj: working with multiple files gets a bit hairy if you dont make sure you're in the correct dir. and you'll want '.' in your classpath as well, which the crap i posted earlier doesn't include ;)
04:19	tomoj	hmm
04:19	tomoj	maybe I'll stick with clojure-project for now
05:04	DrJoke	(life restart)
05:11	seths	is there a historical reason why (inc Integer/MAX_VALUE) overflows?
05:11	seths	(+ 1 Integer/MAX_VALUE) just automatically promotes to Long
05:11	seths	and Long/MAX_VALUE to BigInteger
05:13	cark	might be worth making a post about it on the mailing list
05:19	febeling	how often are the irc logs posted? I can only see the ones from a couple of days ago
05:27	tomoj	it seems like the intention is for (inc Integer/MAX_VALUE) to not overflow
05:28	tomoj	the inc method in IntegerOps checks whether the first operand is less than Integer.MAX_VALUE
05:30	seths	I am putting together a quick post to the mailing list
05:31	seths	(dec Integer/MIN_VALUE) also over (under?) flows
05:32	tomoj	weird, because the dec method in IntegerOps does a similar check there
05:32	tomoj	s/first operand/argument/
05:33	seths	I haven't checked in the source, but I just updated from Github
05:34	seths	"checked in" the source = read it :-)
05:35	tomoj	maybe it's something to do with inlining?
05:35	tomoj	I dunno
05:42	Fossi	i guess if it's intended behaviour, it should be documented
05:42	Fossi	but i doubt it
05:42	Fossi	at least it's not what i would expect
05:43	tomoj	from the source code it looks to me like it's not intended
05:44	tomoj	but that was my first dip into the java source
05:45	seths	I was sort of expecting (inc) and (dec) to be macros
05:45	seths	expanding to (+) and (-)
05:46	tomoj	then (iterate inc 1) wouldn't work, would it?
05:47	seths	haven't used iterate yet :-)
05:50	seths	neat
05:52	tomoj	also stuff like
05:52	tomoj	,(map inc [3 4 5])
05:52	clojurebot	(4 5 6)
05:53	seths	I am seeing the limits of my clojure-fu :-)
05:54	seths	I don't understand why this hangs: (take 10 (iterate (fn [val] (+ 1 val)) 1)
05:55	seths	but this works: (defn bad-inc [val] (+ 1 val)) (take 10 (iterate bad-inc 1))
05:55	tomoj	the first doesn't hang for me
05:55	tomoj	did you really forget the extra ) at the end?
05:55	_mst	am I going mad or are you missing a right paren on both of those?
05:56	_mst	yeah :)
05:56	seths	GAAAAAHHHHHH
05:56	seths	sorry
05:56	tomoj	slime tells you "[input not complete]" in the minibuffer
05:57	tomoj	and the auto-indentation gives a hint too
05:57	Fossi	highlight-parentheses-mode ftw
05:58	seths	I'm ashamed to say the repl is not running in Emacs
05:58	seths	unlike IRC
05:58	Fossi	eh, for me it's the other way round ;)
05:58	seths	I really need to stop being lazy about slime
05:59	tomoj	it's very much worth it imo
05:59	tomoj	once you have slime installed you can just use the clojure-install function from clojure-mode to set most everything up
06:00	Fossi	tomoj: i should've known that
06:00	seths	cool, thanks
06:01	seths	ah, good post on the overflow on the newsgroup
06:01	seths	Integer.MAX_VALUE is an int, not an Integer
06:02	tomoj	ah, that explains why the checks in java didn't work
06:03	seths	,(inc (+ 1 Integer/MAX_VALUE))
06:03	clojurebot	2147483649
06:03	seths	,(.getClass Integer/MAX_VALUE)
06:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
06:03	seths	hmm
06:04	tomoj	the distinction between int and Integer is somewhat hidden
06:04	tomoj	I don't understand it myself yet
06:05	tomoj	ah, I think I may see the problem
06:05	tomoj	integers are boxed on function calls
06:05	tomoj	but inc is inlined
06:06	tomoj	so the inc(int x) in clojure.lang.Numbers is called
06:06	tomoj	which does throwIntOverflow if x is Integer.MAX_VALUE
06:12	seths	tomoj: that would be a great addition to the posting on the newsgroup
06:13	tomoj	,(inc (identity Integer/MAX_VALUE))
06:13	clojurebot	2147483648
06:13	mikehinchey	that's what should promote instead of throw
06:13	tomoj	is there a clearer way to box besides identity?
06:14	mikehinchey	unchecked_inc should be used if you want the exception
06:15	tomoj	also, is there a way to check whether a certain value is boxed or not?
06:15	tomoj	(class foo) won't work because foo gets boxed
06:16	mikehinchey	I think it's assumed you know what you're doing when you use java interop
06:16	tomoj	unfortunately I don't :(
06:17	tomoj	ie. I don't understand how to use unboxed ints for performance
06:17	tomoj	and I can't really investigate it because (class <int>) is still Integer
06:18	mikehinchey	like I said, I think the inc behavior is wrong, so you wouldn't have to know for this case
06:19	tomoj	right, but for performance optimization, I'd like to know
06:19	mikehinchey	I suppose that would require a new special form, since a fn or macro can't know if something is primitive or not
06:20	Chousuke	the compiler does know though.
06:20	mikehinchey	right
06:20	Chousuke	but arguments to function calls are always boxed.
06:20	tomoj	well
06:20	Chousuke	if you want primitive math, you need a (loop ...)
06:21	tomoj	I saw something in here the other day about using (int ..) in binding forms
06:21	tomoj	I don't see that explained anywhere on clojure.org
06:21	mikehinchey	inlined fns can avoid boxing
06:21	Chousuke	well, yeah, but that's because the function is never really called :/
06:22	Chousuke	tomoj: should be in the java interop section
06:22	tomoj	Chousuke: ah, hadn't looked there. thanks
06:23	tomoj	yup, I see it now. cool
06:29	tomoj	,(+ 1 Integer/MAX_VALUE)
06:29	clojurebot	2147483648
06:29	tomoj	,(+ (int 1) Integer/MAX_VALUE)
06:29	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow
06:33	rsynnott	aren't Java integers 64bit these days?
06:33	rsynnott	or is that just Long?
06:34	tomoj	apparently they are 32bit
06:35	tomoj	otherwise there would be no overflow there
06:35	tomoj	right?
06:35	rsynnott	yep, they seem to be :)
06:35	rsynnott	I must have imagined the 64bit thing
06:35	rsynnott	,(+1 Long/MAX_VALUE)
06:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
06:35	rsynnott	,Long/MAX_VALUE
06:35	clojurebot	9223372036854775807
06:35	rsynnott	ah
06:35	tomoj	we don't have a +1
06:36	rsynnott	yep, that's 64bit :)
06:36	rsynnott	ooh, missed a space, yes
06:59	seths	06:58 *** banisterfiend JOIN
07:33	Fossi	what's the keybinding for getting the repl again?
07:33	Fossi	in emacs that is
07:34	Chousuke	M-x slime? :/
07:35	Chousuke	I don't quite understand the question :P
07:35	Fossi	there is a keybinding to get the buffer with the open repl somehow
07:35	Chousuke	hmmh
07:35	Fossi	instead of having to go through M-x b *sl TAB r TAB
07:36	Chousuke	heh.
07:37	arbscht	C-c C-z does slime-switch-to-output-buffer
07:38	Chousuke	I have fuzzy completion in the minibuffer from some addon. I'm not sure which, I cloned some set of emacs customisations from github and just tweaked them. :P
07:38	rsynnott	doesn't slime have fuzzy completion anyway?
07:39	rsynnott	oh, fuzzy completion in emacs itself?
07:39	Chousuke	I can just got C-x b slre<tab> and it switches
07:39	arbscht	emacs yeah - I use icicle
07:39	Chousuke	I think it might be that. or just ido.el? :/
07:39	clojurebot	that is not what I wanted
07:39	Chousuke	I'm not sure what, but it's nice :D
07:39	Fossi	yeah, i need to get that as well
07:40	Fossi	C-c C-z almost does what i want, only that it opens the buffer in another window
07:40	Chousuke	I also have rather nice tabcompletion in clojure-mode buffers.
07:41	Chousuke	again, not sure which part of my .emacs.d does it but it's also nice :P
07:42	Fossi	damn ctrl-w
07:42	Fossi	i need to disable that for pidgin :(
07:43	Chousuke	heh
07:43	Chousuke	I would hate that. I'm pretty used to deleting words with ctrl-w
07:44	Chousuke	the one nice thing about the mac command key is that it doesn't interfere with application shortcuts using control
07:45	Chousuke	the downside is the lack of an alt gr, making emacs somewhat less pleasant :P
07:45	Fossi	well, remapping should be trivial
07:45	Fossi	i think i might switch ctrl and alt/meta when i go back to dvorak
07:45	Chousuke	well, yeah, but using cmd as meta then makes emacs unable to utilise the commmon mac shortcuts.
07:46	Fossi	ah, ok
07:46	Chousuke	-m
07:46	Chousuke	:P
07:46	Chousuke	though for now, that doesn't matter much.
07:47	Chousuke	it's a bit annoying sometimes though, because Cocoa emacs has some cmd-shortcuts in its menus and I'm not sure what the traditional emacs equivalents are.
07:48	andyfingerhut	Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know what is stored in the 8 bytes (32-bit system) or 16 bytes (64-bit system) of every java.lang.Object? Reflection on fields doesn't seem to give me the answer for that class like it does for others.
07:48	Chousuke	hm, though, problems like that are easily solved with f1 k :P
08:01	Neronus	andyfingerhut: I know at least that its default constructor does nothing (not setting any fields, no nothing)
08:04	Fossi	hmm. doesn't work
08:07	tomoj	hmm.. I get tab-completion in the repl but not in my source buffers
08:12	Fossi	"gtk-key-theme-name = "Emacs" " hmmmm
08:13	Fossi	in source buffers i have dabbrev-expand on M-/
08:13	Fossi	kinda sufficient
08:13	fsm	Hello everyone. My raytracer is improving: http://tu.be/graphics/teapot2.png
08:15	Neronus	andyfingerhut: I suggest: One pointer to the super object (which is null for object, or the object itself, I don't know what the jvm does) and one pointer pointing somewhere denoting the type of the instance
08:16	andyfingerhut	Neronus: thanks. sounds plausible. I'll keep Google searching. Trying to figure out where all those 48 bytes go on my 64-bit machine for each clojure.lang.Cons and clojure.lang.LazySeq.
08:16	Chousuke	keybindings with / in them always cause problems to me
08:16	Fossi	fsm: nice
08:17	Chousuke	I use a Finnish layout so there's no single key that gives me /
08:17	fsm	thanks
08:17	Fossi	Chousuke: that's why i use an us-altgrintl layout (typematrix 2030)
08:18	Fossi	worst is comment-region on a german keyboard
08:18	Fossi	meta alt-gr ctrl -
08:18	Chousuke	:P
08:19	Fossi	although there's still a possibility for shift in there ;)
08:19	Fossi	apart from (), the layout is pretty nice
08:19	Fossi	but those suck on most layouts
08:20	Chousuke	maybe I should tell emacs to output parentheses from å instead of the useless letter
08:20	Fossi	with paredit you rarely need ) anyway
08:20	Chousuke	paredit doesn't work with viper too well though :/
08:20	Fossi	so one letter or å Å would be sufficient
08:21	Chousuke	viper overrides paredit's parentheses deletion protection and then completely confuses paredit
08:21	Fossi	but i also like the intl layout for letting me type all those characters easily :D
08:21	Chousuke	to the point that with paredit mode enable, I can't even re-balance the s-exprs because paredit thinks things are unbalanced.
08:22	Chousuke	enabled*
08:22	Chousuke	I suppose I could just tell emacs to use a US layout.
08:23	Fossi	well, that's kinda a mood point about paredit
08:23	Fossi	never c&p
08:23	Fossi	or you will have to go through hell to fix it
08:23	Chousuke	it's not about cut'n'paste though.
08:24	Chousuke	if I just delete a line with viper, it will confuse paredit if it happens to cause the parens to become unbalanced.
08:24	Fossi	you can always rebalance them by pasting a ")"
08:24	Fossi	well, that's more or less cutting
08:25	AWizzArd	http://www.csd.uwo.ca/staff/magi/personal/humour/Computer_Audience/Boot%20It.html
08:25	Fossi	you should use paredit-kill for deleting anyway
08:27	Chousuke	I need a better keyboard anyway :/
08:27	Fossi	typematrix rocks
08:27	Chousuke	the macbook keyboard is very much not emacs-friendly
08:27	Fossi	haven't found a better one and i searched quite some
08:28	Fossi	it's a little strange at first, but it pays
08:29	Chousuke	mmh
08:29	Chousuke	control key seems to be in a bad position :/
08:29	Fossi	a real small downside is that the backspace is so close to the enter key
08:30	Fossi	so sometimes i send messages in irc/im that i wanted to correct, but that's prolly because i don't touch type correctly
08:30	Fossi	that's why i thing i'll switch alt and ctrl when i go dvorak again
08:30	Chousuke	I read some advice for buying a keyboard for emacs use, and it said that the control key should be pressable with the palm
08:30	Fossi	*think
08:31	Chousuke	which makes a lot of sense.
08:31	Fossi	the right control key is kinda nice thoughand the inline cursor keys
08:31	Chousuke	I don't use enter that much actually
08:31	Chousuke	just ctrl-m
08:32	Chousuke	often it doesn't work though :(
08:32	Fossi	ah, didn't know that one yet
08:33	Chousuke	in irssi it seems ctrl-j works too
08:33	Fossi	well, th etypematrix is not really emacs centric
08:33	Chousuke	hmm, and in a regular shell
08:33	Chousuke	two different linechars I guess
08:34	Fossi	prolly cr lf
08:34	Chousuke	in slime ctrl-j seems to just add a line, and ctrl-m actually sends input
08:35	Fossi	newline-and-indent is great
08:35	Fossi	i guess i should bind that to RET in clojure-mode
08:36	Chousuke	I need to get over my current tiredness
08:36	Chousuke	then I might write regexp pattern support for my reader!
08:37	Chousuke	It's really fun to write.
08:38	Chousuke	I think of the simplest method to accomplish something, write it out, and then test it, and most of the time it just works :P
08:39	Chousuke	I guess it helps a lot that I'm not working with a stateful stream. writing a small function to add a bit of functionality and then testing it is really easy. no need to reset the stream or anything :)
08:40	Chousuke	though I thing that might turn out to be a problem later on :/
08:41	Chousuke	But I think I'll worry about it after I have a working reader for non-stateful input.
09:08	cemerick	wow, clojure is the 21st most popular language on github. That's sort of amazing, IMO.
09:08	AWizzArd	cemerick: and the number of chatters here in the channel is increasing again
09:09	AWizzArd	next January we will have a new peak
09:09	cemerick	heh, maybe
09:09	cemerick	#clojure is a far less important indication, I think
09:09	LauJensen	cemerick: Whats #1 and #2 ?
09:09	cemerick	ruby and javascript
09:09	cemerick	http://github.com/languages
09:10	cemerick	definitely the web-2.0 crowd
09:11	cemerick	clojurebot: popularity-on-github is <reply>Clojure ranked #21 on 8/14/2009
09:11	clojurebot	Alles klar
09:11	LauJensen	Ok - Am I evil for hoping Clojure will never get above #15? :)
09:11	andyfingerhut	Anybody here use github commercially? I only have a free account. It is darned convenient.
09:11	cemerick	andyfingerhut: we looked at it very briefly, but it's incredibly expensive
09:11	LauJensen	andyfingerhut: None that Ive heard of, Im even migrating my freebies off Github to Gitorious
09:12	Chouser	"I'm very envious of the attention [arc] gets" --rhickey http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-02-12.html#12:08a
09:12	Chouser	has anyone heard arc mentioned anywhere recently? I haven't.
09:13	Chouser	what a difference 18 months can make
09:13	LauJensen	Arc compiles to native though? jealous
09:14	cemerick	LauJensen: can gitorious be set up on a server by a mere mortal now? It was simply impossible IMO when I tried it some months back.
09:14	LauJensen	cemerick: Dunno, I just use their webservice, havent set anything up myself
09:14	cemerick	Chouser: I talked with a couple of MIT folks a few weeks ago that are using it actively. The Graham connection explains that, I think.
09:14	LauJensen	And that only took < 2 minutes
09:15	Chouser	cemerick: huh. ok.
09:15	cemerick	I wouldn't look to random researchers at MIT for trend datapoints ,tho :-)
09:20	rsynnott	wow, people are using arc? Amazing
09:20	rsynnott	I thought it just died
09:21	cemerick	I'm starting a new project, probably going to push it to github. Do folks prefer clj-dbm or cljdbm? I was trying to get a sense of whether there's a naming convention to these things at the moment, but it seems not.
09:22	Fossi	didn't even know it was released
09:24	arbscht	clj-dbm. to me, cljdbm risks implying cl-jdbm
09:26	arbscht	there's precedent in clj-html, clj-android etc. from clojure.org/libraries
09:26	Fossi	i also like clojure- or clj- better
09:33	LauJensen	cemerick: Whats the full name of the project?
09:34	cemerick	LauJensen: clj-dbm, or some variant
09:34	cemerick	it's a wrapper for the jdbm library
09:34	LauJensen	Does dbm not stand for something?
09:34	cemerick	(with lucene integration)
09:35	cemerick	database manager
09:35	LauJensen	I'd probably go with clojure-dbm, but it would be nice to get consensus on a convention
09:35	cemerick	the DBM model has been around for a long, long time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dbm
09:35	LauJensen	We've been happy with ClojureQL
09:35	cemerick	jdbm happens to be a java impl
09:44	tomoj	I was thinking about doing something with agent watchers and automatic json conversion with couchdb
09:53	LauJensen	I recently implemented an ajax chat using compojure/json/clojureql. Quite nice way to develop
10:10	andyfingerhut	anyone have some quick hints for a Java newbie on how to run a Clojure program with the right options so that a Java debugger can get all the info it needs to be useful? I'm trying out a free eval of jDebugTool. Not sure if that tool is any good or not. Recommendations for something free or with a trail eval period are welcome.
10:14	andyfingerhut	I'm currently starting the java process with these debug-enabling options: -Xdebug -Xrunjdwp:transport=dt_socket,address=8000,server=y,suspend=n
10:14	clojurebot	☕
10:15	andyfingerhut	And then I run jDebugTool separately and attach to that process.
10:31	Fossi	somebody really needs to write an elisp script to clean up imports ;D
10:41	mblinn	sonofcim michael vick
10:41	mblinn	oops
10:41	mblinn	sorry, carryon
10:58	Anniepoo	clojurebot: paste
10:58	clojurebot	lisppaste8, url
10:58	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
11:00	lisppaste8	Anniepoo pasted "RT/ROOT_CLASSLOADER" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85380
11:01	Chouser	heh
11:02	Chouser	I guess that's what I get for recommending you look at my own code...
11:02	LauJensen	Anniepoo: Sweet with the title :)
11:02	Anniepoo	it's urping at this location. I take it you're doing some deep magic getting the class loader
11:02	Chouser	the interface has changed
11:02	Anniepoo	LJ, yah, thanks for the tip, and I quit marking them one hour too
11:04	Anniepoo	yah, it's private now
11:04	Chouser	Try this instead: (RT/baseLoader)
11:04	Chouser	or wait for me to commit an update
11:04	Anniepoo	lol
11:05	Anniepoo	that didn't work
11:05	Anniepoo	Unable to find static field: baseLoader in class clojure.lang.RT (textjure.clj:323)
11:05	Chouser	you need the parens
11:06	Anniepoo	ah
11:07	Chouser	tested and pushed.
11:10	Anniepoo	pasting throws exception
11:10	lisppaste8	Anniepoo annotated #85380 "pasting throws exception in textjure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85380#1
11:12	Anniepoo	this is better than being rubbed with a brick, that's for sure!
11:13	Anniepoo	what's the upper and middle panels for?
11:13	Anniepoo	(sorry, the upper - you've set a max size)
11:22	Chouser	the upper panel is meant to be a text editor
11:22	Chouser	nothing useful there yet though.
11:23	Anniepoo	ah, ok
11:23	Chouser	huh, I don't know anything about that paste error.
11:23	Anniepoo	dunno, could be related to me running in IntelliJ
11:24	Anniepoo	I'm insanely tempted to ignore everything I have to do for the next week and build my own tiny IDE in Clojure
11:29	Chouser	Anniepoo: I understand the temptation. textjure demostrates how for I got before returning to my senses.
11:29	Anniepoo	LOL
11:30	Anniepoo	well, I should know the language better before doing it
11:30	Fossi	i guess a native editor would be nice
11:30	Fossi	then again, emacs is just so damn effective
11:31	Chouser	I got bogged down trying to write a general "parser" for multi-keystroke vi-like command sequences.
11:31	Anniepoo	ah, Cl port of YACC?
11:31	cemerick	Fossi: ...at causing madness and general mayhem? ;-)
11:32	Neronus	At being a mail client
11:32	Fossi	cemerick: apparently, that lasts only a few years ;)
11:32	Anniepoo	I could write something saner in the time it'd take me to memorize the emacs commands for the third time in my life
11:33	Fossi	i thought so too
11:34	Fossi	now i miss things like forward-delete-word in other programs
11:34	Chouser	Fossi: dW
11:34	Chouser	sorry
11:34	Chouser	I should restrain myself. But that's an example of what I wanted to be able to parse.
11:35	Anniepoo	sure - and I've got them memorized for IntelliJ - it's ctrl shift right arrow del
11:36	Fossi	Anniepoo: exactly my point.
11:36	cemerick	I've never understood the attraction of arcane stuff like dW and all the emacs-isms. Visual feedback is always good, incantations are always bad.
11:36	Chouser	vim apparently has a giant C switch statement that munges global variables as you type. bleh
11:36	Anniepoo	I'm with cemerick
11:36	cemerick	Programmers are more like civilians than we generally like to think.
11:36	Anniepoo	I've been programming since Unix was an interesting new OS
11:37	Fossi	well, just from my experience from the last two month of clojure with emacs compared to eclipse and java, the editing feels much faster
11:37	Knekk	Incantations are merely useful shortcuts
11:37	LauJensen	cemerick: Emacs is very transparent, speedy and flexible. I'd get annoyed just from the 5 second start up time of Eclipse
11:38	Anniepoo	and fail to understand the fascination in some quarters for stuff that went out with pin matrix printers
11:38	Fossi	then again, you prolly can't do things like paredit does them with more syntax
11:38	cemerick	LauJensen: speedy and flexible, but only for a particular definition of those terms. The notion of transparency is laughable though (IMO, of course)
11:38	Anniepoo	I'd agree with Fossi, most ANY decent editor that you have memorized the keys for is better than
11:39	Anniepoo	any other editor you haven't
11:39	LauJensen	cemerick: Laughable?
11:39	Fossi	Anniepoo: well, i have them down for eclipse i think
11:39	Fossi	it's just that it's not or only barely possible to kill things in the current scope for example
11:39	Anniepoo	ah, that's interesting
11:40	Fossi	and ctrl-shift-right del is rediculous from the amount of finger movement compared to meta-d
11:40	Anniepoo	well, yes, and I'm on IntelliJ, which knows about and is wonderful for Java, but won't, for example, double click highlight str-utils as one identifier
11:40	cemerick	LauJensen: emacs does lots of the same kind of stuff that vim does, except it's user-extensible, so bindings can be changed by things other than user action.
11:41	LauJensen	So how is that laughable ?
11:41	cemerick	chorded keybindings, basic lack of visual feedback, etc etc etc.
11:41	Knekk	elisp is way easier to use than vim macros
11:41	Fossi	Anniepoo: i wouldn't even think of using emacs for java
11:41	cemerick	LauJensen: it's not what I would consider "transparent"
11:42	Anniepoo	OK, Fossi, you're making a more convincing argument
11:42	LauJensen	By transparent I meant - I dont have to worry about 6 different windows I rarely use and an abundance of tools that are unnecessary for editing .clj files. Perhaps I used the wrong word
11:42	Fossi	i guess it would be really cool to have a seperate editor for clojure, it's just going to be hard to be as effective as emacs is for lisps
11:43	Fossi	that was my whole point :)
11:43	tomoj	+1 for slime/paredit
11:43	Knekk	how many times do you reach for the mouse when you are using your IDE? Learn to love keyboard shortcuts, a.k.a. incantations
11:43	cemerick	yeah, it's totally a personal preference, likely not with much of a defensible basis.
11:44	Anniepoo	Fossi, I suspect the solution is to effectively wrap emacs in something
11:45	Fossi	dunno
11:45	Anniepoo	but you've convinced me to try it, I'll get set up to do emacs and I'll make myself a set of flashcards and spend a few hours memorizing keystrokes
11:46	cemerick	Knekk: IRC'ing from the train?
11:46	Fossi	i just edited away and took a look at a new keystroke every few days
11:46	Knekk	cemerick: aint' technology grand? brb
11:46	Anniepoo	yes, but I've found when I change editors it's well worth it to make a stack of index card flashcards
11:46	Anniepoo	find a coffee house somewhere
11:47	Anniepoo	a couple mocha's later I'm a lot more productive
11:47	LauJensen	Whats the attraction of this IntelliJ people are talking about?
11:47	Anniepoo	Lau, for Java it's wonderful
11:48	Anniepoo	it has incredibly intelligent refactoring
11:48	Anniepoo	it's in many ways another approach to dealing with the ceremony of Java
11:48	LauJensen	Looking at the site now. Cemerick whats your editor of choice?
11:48	LauJensen	Anniepoo: Anything Clojure-specific for it?
11:49	Anniepoo	you can do most refactorings as single keystrokes
11:49	cemerick	NetBeans. IntelliJ is very, very nice for Java, but NB has a much richer plugin ecosystem (for what I care about, I suppose), and a very good clojure environment.
11:49	rsynnott	'ceremony of Java' - I am imagining people sacrificing explicit casts to the gods, here
11:50	Anniepoo	yes, there's a (not all that hot, but OK) La Clojure plugin
11:50	LauJensen	Anniepoo: Refactoring - I've never tried it - Is that where you editor is smarter than you in dividing your code into logical factions ?
11:50	cemerick	It's Java capabilities are good, but not close to IntelliJ. If I were dedicated to programming in Java for many years to come, I'd probably buy it.
11:50	cemerick	bah, its*
11:51	Anniepoo	Lau, it's where my editor is a darn sight faster than me in doing something like
11:52	Chouser	If I couldn't use vim, I'd definitely use emacs. I've never tried an IDE that didn't end up annoying me, while I got quite far with emacs once.
11:52	Anniepoo	adding a parameter to a method call and propagating it everywhere
11:52	tomoj	unfortunately I think clojure will never have that kind of thing
11:52	LauJensen	k
11:53	Anniepoo	tomoj, why not? it's be a lot easier to write for Clojure, and with it's Lisp heritage, there's lots of AI/NLP oriented programmers around to do that sort of thing
11:53	Anniepoo	brb
11:53	tomoj	hmm
11:53	tomoj	but clojure is dynamic
11:54	tomoj	there are no good refactoring editors for ruby because it's dynamic
11:54	cemerick	tomoj: I've heard very good things about the NB ruby environment and its refactoring
11:54	cemerick	(never used it myself, tho)
11:54	tomoj	it's nothing compared to intellij, from what I've heard
11:55	Chouser	I think if you accept that even in Java refactoring is perfect 100% of the time, then you can make progress on a dynamic language like Clojure.
11:55	tomoj	e.g. in ruby if you see foo.some_method, there's no way to know what foo is, so you can't rename or add parameters to some-method
11:56	Anniepoo	IntelliJ has it's weaknesses - the module/project system is obscure, and the GUI builder is weak
11:56	cemerick	has anyone heard of plans to add contrib.def to clojure itself (core, or some other ns)?
11:57	cemerick	Anniepoo: oh, yeah, the GUI builder. That thing is horrible.
11:57	cemerick	directly generates classfiles, last time I tried it ugh
11:57	andyfingerhut	any jswat users here?
11:57	Anniepoo	cemerick, you can set that
11:57	Anniepoo	it's in project settings
11:57	cemerick	ahha
11:58	cemerick	the fact that it's an option at all makes me question the entire product top-to-bottom
11:58	Anniepoo	JBuilder from Borland has a lovely, lovely GUI builder
11:58	cemerick	generating classfiles that are intended to be added to source control is insanity
11:58	rsynnott	Borland always was good at GUI builders
11:58	Knekk	what did I miss?
11:58	Anniepoo	cemerick, forcing users to do what you think is good for them is probably more insane
12:00	cemerick	Anniepoo: is there any use case for versioning the artifacts of code generation? In this neck of the woods, that's what build processes are for.
12:01	Chousuke	cemerick: maybe you should prompt it on the group. core could use a def- and defmacro- at least, if not defvar and defvar-
12:01	Anniepoo	actually, I can indeed think of a few. I mostly do graphics related stuff, and often work with asset pipelines
12:01	Chousuke	cemerick: I think it's somewhat counterintuitive to have defn- but no def- :/
12:02	cemerick	Chousuke: OK, I will. Any idea why it's defvar- and not def-?
12:02	Anniepoo	it's not uncommon to have odd semi-automated processes
12:02	Chousuke	cemerick: it supports a docstring
12:03	cemerick	Anniepoo: yeah, I'll definitely grant you the asset case. But UI layouts aren't graphical assets.
12:03	Anniepoo	hmm....
12:03	Anniepoo	I currently have a project that has a bunch of wood workshop files
12:03	Anniepoo	I assume if I pass you my project you have wood workshop installed and configured correctly?
12:04	Anniepoo	;c)
12:04	cemerick	Chousuke: Oh, I see. Yeah, a regular def- would be good
12:04	Chousuke	I'd like the defvar macros too though.
12:05	Chousuke	actually, having them but not def- would be enough I guess.
12:05	Chousuke	def could remain the low-level special form it is :)
12:13	Fossi	+1 for def- and defmacro-
12:14	cark	i use defonce quite a bit too
12:14	cark	in clojure.contrib.def
12:14	cark	and its variant defonce-
12:14	Fossi	i rarely use any of them because i can't be bothered to import them
12:15	Fossi	which is a shame
12:15	Fossi	especially generating docs without the private things would be pretty useful
12:30	drewr	I hate spending 3 hours debugging a fn with lazy-seq only to discover I wasn't recurring correctly
13:01	drewr	is there a lazy flatten somewhere?
13:01	drewr	I thought the one in seq-utils would be
13:01	Chousuke	~def flatten
13:02	Chousuke	seems lazy to me.
13:02	drewr	,(flatten [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 (iterate inc 0)]])
13:03	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
13:03	drewr	,(flatten [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]])
13:03	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
13:03	drewr	whoops
13:03	cark	but clojurebot tries to print it
13:03	drewr	,(take 4 (flatten [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 (iterate inc 0)]]))
13:03	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
13:03	drewr	hm
13:03	drewr	,(firt (flatten [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 (iterate inc 0)]]))
13:03	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: firt in this context
13:03	drewr	,(first (flatten [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 (iterate inc 0)]]))
13:03	clojurebot	1
13:04	drewr	I guess it is. Interesting.
13:08	cemerick	it's too bad that one cannot import an inner class; e.g. (import 'org.apache.lucene.document.Field$Store), then use Store/YES
13:09	drewr	~import-static
13:09	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:09	drewr	~def import-static
13:10	drewr	maybe not
13:10	cemerick	yeah, that won't help
13:10	cemerick	totally not a big deal
13:14	drewr	flatten doesn't act lazily with side effects perhaps
13:14	drewr	I'm returning batches of data from a database with lazy-seq
13:15	drewr	if I do (take 1 (flatten (get-batches ...))) it hits the database for all matching batches
13:15	drewr	but if I do (take 1 (get-batches ...)), it only hits the db to get the first batch
13:16	cemerick	whoa, doseq supports the same filtering as for!
13:18	abedra	got a strange question if anyone is around to help
13:19	abedra	I have some code http://gist.github.com/167970
13:19	abedra	that produces an error
13:19	abedra	but if I copy the top function into the repl and just paste the innards of the second funtion to the repl it works
13:19	Chousuke	defn is missing the parameter list
13:19	abedra	oh good lord
13:20	mudphone	it happens to everyone
13:20	abedra	wow
13:20	abedra	time for sleep
13:20	abedra	thanks
13:20	mudphone	(or maybe just me)
13:20	Raynes	Never happened to me. >_>
13:20	abedra	lol
13:20	mudphone	just me then :)
13:21	Raynes	Of course, I had several embarrassing mistakes that seemed equally stupid. Just not this particular one.
13:21	Raynes	:)
13:21	mudphone	last night I tried to use defn, without calling it...
13:21	mudphone	defn... instead of (defn
13:21	mudphone	oh boy
13:21	lrenn	happened to me last night. writing lots of deftests can do that.
13:22	mudphone	the interesting thing is the error
13:22	mudphone	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro:
13:23	mudphone	... anyway...
13:24	Chousuke	,def
13:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: def in this context
13:24	mudphone	in my case it was
13:24	mudphone	,defn
13:24	Chousuke	that's rather interesting
13:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/defn
13:24	Chousuke	,(def def 0)
13:24	clojurebot	DENIED
13:24	Chousuke	damn.
13:24	cemerick	better than when I first started learning clojure, and was doing (filter #(nil? %) ...), etc.
13:24	cemerick	:-(
13:25	Chousuke	well, that's quite normal :P
13:25	abedra	:)
13:25	Chousuke	eventually you grow to notice such redundancy and eliminate it.
13:25	cemerick	that's what I get for being away from scheme for so long
13:26	Chousuke	and filtering nils is interesting too. :)
13:27	mudphone	some people like their nils
13:27	Chousuke	heh.
13:31	cemerick	Chousuke: yeah, I was just tossing out an example, and nil? came to mind first
13:33	Chousuke	heh.
13:46	jwhitlark	Does anyone know if "The Little Schemer" has anything to offer for working in clojure? Is it lisp focused or scheme focused?
13:46	osaunders	I don't understand. There's not-any? but no any? Is that right?
13:47	mblinn	scheme
13:47	mblinn	but it's very enjoyable
13:47	stuartsierra	osaunders: "any?" is effectively "some"
13:48	cemerick	not-any? probably should have been none?
13:48	osaunders	stuartsierra: Thanks. Can't help being annoyed by that naming inconsistency though.
13:48	technomancy	is "some" a CL-ism?
13:48	mudphone	jwhitlark: I'm currently reading "The LIttle Schemer"
13:48	technomancy	that would certainly explain the annoying inconsistency
13:48	mudphone	jwhitlark: I think it's worth checking out, if you're new to lisp
13:48	stuartsierra	"some" is slightly different, it returns the thing found, instead of true/false
13:48	jwhitlark	I'm just trying to figure out if has a wider applicability to lisp.
13:48	technomancy	jwhitlark: definitely worth a read.
13:48	stuartsierra	The predicates ending in "?" usually return a boolean.
13:49	osaunders	Ah.
13:49	stuartsierra	I believe it's also a CL function.
13:49	jwhitlark	mudphone: I've been using lisp off and on for a while, but I'm really aiming for a deeper understanding now that I'm trying to do production work in clojure.
13:50	stuartsierra	You could (defn any? [pred coll] (if (some pred coll) true false))
13:51	stuartsierra	correction: "some" returns the first logical true value returned by the predicate.
13:51	mudphone	jwhitlark: rich hickey has a clojure bookshelf on Amazon
13:52	mudphone	jwhitlark: clojure bookshelf: http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Bookshelf/lm/R3LG3ZBZS4GCTH
13:53	stuartsierra	that's one comprehensive list!
13:53	jwhitlark	ohhh. Christmas time!
13:53	stuartsierra	If you can plow through every one of those books, you'll be a rockstar programmer for sure.
13:55	jwhitlark	I'm working through On Lisp at the moment. I've got a month's vacation to get caught up on the things I've been missing.
13:55	gko	Is there already a FTP clojure library ?
13:56	mudphone	jwhitlark: there are three books in "The Little Schemer" series... in case the first one is too basic for you
13:57	mudphone	stuartsierra: let's see if I can plow through AND understand them :)
13:57	osaunders	stuartsierra: Thanks for the any? def but I think some will do fine. Probably why any? isn't defined.
13:58	stuartsierra	exactly
13:58	osaunders	Is a bookshelf the books his owns?
13:58	osaunders	*he owns
13:58	osaunders	The list author says: "Books that influenced Clojure, in no particular order
13:59	osaunders	^ answered my own q.
13:59	mudphone	actually, first heard of the list from technomancy's blog
14:00	osaunders	36 programming books is a lot of work.
14:00	osaunders	I get through probably little over 6 programming books a year.
14:01	osaunders	I read something once that suggested the best ratio for programming awesomeness was 70% programming 30% reading.
14:01	osaunders	Of course the time you spend programming should be on stuff that challenges you,
14:01	clojurebot	that is not what I wanted
14:03	osaunders	(print pie),
14:03	mudphone	ravi_n = ravi_nemani ???
14:22	drewr	stuartsierra: do you want patches for c.c.http.agent, or is it still a work in progress?
14:23	drewr	actually, c.c.http.connection
14:23	stuartsierra	drewr: happy to have corrections/bugfixes
14:24	stuartsierra	but I wouldn't bother with assembla patches, it's still a work in progress
14:24	stuartsierra	I've actually been wondering if I should remove it from contrib altogether until I'm satisfied it's finished.
14:24	drewr	works well for me with a couple of bugfixes
14:25	stuartsierra	hit me, then
14:25	technomancy	stuartsierra: I'm of that opinion. it's not difficult to create new repositories for experimental or in-progress code.
14:25	technomancy	as long as you've got mechanisms for dependency resolution, of course.
14:25	stuartsierra	It doesn't depend on much, just duck-streams.
14:26	technomancy	stuartsierra: right, I mean for code depending on http.agent
14:26	stuartsierra	oh, right
14:26	lisppaste8	drewr pasted "c.c.http.connection fixes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85390
14:26	technomancy	good thing corkscrew is around! </self-promotion>
14:26	stuartsierra	how's that coming, by the way?
14:27	drewr	I'm using jdk6; not sure if that makes a difference with regard to setting streaming mode before connecting
14:27	technomancy	stuartsierra: it's done. as much as I need is done anyway.
14:27	drewr	but that's why I had to move .connect around
14:27	stuartsierra	cool
14:27	technomancy	just waiting for the vast throngs of users to tell me how they like it. =)
14:27	drewr	s/move/copy/
14:28	stuartsierra	drewr: I think you're right.
14:28	stuartsierra	the streaming mode should be set before .connect, always
14:34	cemerick	a generalized dependency resolution utility and linker would be great
14:34	technomancy	cemerick: what's a linker?
14:36	cemerick	technomancy: broadly, given a program, it determines all transitive dependencies, and produces "object code" (in our case, just a merged jar, etc) that contains only what you need to run the given program
14:37	technomancy	cemerick: gotcha. yeah, if you've got dependency resolution down, then that's pretty trivial.
14:37	cemerick	which we don't, yet (AFAIK)
14:37	technomancy	cemerick: take a look at corkscrew. =)
14:37	cemerick	technomancy: I saw maven and ran away. Sorry. :-(
14:38	drewr	stuartsierra: thanks
14:38	technomancy	cemerick: heh; the whole point of corkscrew is that you don't have to use maven.
14:38	drewr	ah, you broke the typo out into a separate commit, good
14:38	stuartsierra	yeah, someone posted that on the list
14:38	cemerick	technomancy: "It currently requires that Maven be installed to work. This requirement should be removed in future versions."?
14:39	technomancy	you don't have to interact with it is what I mean.
14:39	cemerick	ah
14:40	technomancy	once I get it so you don't need maven installed I will be sure to hide any references to that word deep away in the code so it doesn't frighten people away.
14:40	cemerick	right now we're using git submodules for dependencies. I'm hoping subtree merging gets into the git mainline eventually, as that would be a nearly-ideal scenario.
14:41	cemerick	technomancy: I'm highly allergic to maven. It's one of those tools that demands that it own your entire world.
14:42	technomancy	cemerick: maybe in Java that's true
14:42	technomancy	in Clojure you can use it only for dependency resolution and it's very simple
14:42	lrenn	technomancy: did you consider ivy since you're only using the dependency resolution?
14:43	technomancy	lrenn: I considered it. they both support maven's repository format... when in doubt, choose the tool that doesn't consider XML to be a programming language.
14:43	technomancy	greenspun's tenth and all
14:44	cemerick	technomancy: that's interesting. I may take another look if git subtrees don't materialize.
14:44	technomancy	I mean, when you consider the fact that the creator of ant has publicly apologized for it and decided to give up his career in programming... that says a lot.
14:44	Chousuke	subtree merging?
14:45	technomancy	and it's a good thing too; he's much better at photography.
14:45	lrenn	technomancy: agreed re: xml and ant, but you could have used ivy just to fetch the deps, no xml required (i think anyway).
14:46	technomancy	lrenn: corkscrew is 200 lines of code. if someone wants to rewrite it to use ivy I would be fine with that.
14:46	cemerick	Chousuke: http://navarra.ca/?p=520 and http://github.com/apenwarr/git-subtree/tree/master
14:49	Chousuke	hmm
14:49	Chousuke	git submodules aren't that bad once you get used to them, but they're not very flexible.
14:49	Chousuke	you can't follow a "moving target"
14:50	cemerick	That's not my real gripe with them. The real issue IMO is that the submodule dir (that contains the hash to be checked out) is a constant source of merge conflict.
14:54	Chousuke	cemerick: interesting
14:54	Chousuke	I hope it gets merged.
14:54	cemerick	one step closer to svn:externals, which is the only thing I miss from svn
14:55	weissj	anybody know how to use jline? how do you go back to history?
15:13	cemerick	does proxy not support implementing overloads with different arities?
15:14	Chouser	it does
15:14	cemerick	(e.g. even with -byte<>-int-int-style names?)
15:14	cemerick	hrm
15:14	Chouser	I can never remember how, though. you might have to overload all the arities and handle them inside the one fn
15:14	cemerick	Oh, right. I remember now. :-P
15:19	cemerick	Chouser: yup, thanks for the reminder :-)
15:21	Chouser	I'm not sure I've ever had to do it myself, or at least so rarely I always forget.
15:23	cemerick	this was precipitated by proxying an abstract class that had a writeBytes(byte[], int, int) method, but provided a (byte[], int) default impl -- and I figured I could leave the latter to do its thing
15:24	Anniepoo	I can't believe it, I was loving this language before, and having to go through a compile cycle. Now I'm altering the code as it runs! A-freeeking mazing!!!!
15:26	Anniepoo	Whooo HOOOO!!!!!
15:26	Chousuke	:D
15:33	weissj	i was using clojure-dev in eclipse but the repl sucks so bad there bc jline doesn't work in eclipse. so now i'm using a plain repl in linux console. what do i call to load a file and run it? that's what the eclipse env does behind the scenes. load-file just loads it
15:35	weissj	er, maybe my previous environment would switch ns, this one doesn't
15:36	weissj	what's that
15:37	Chouser	http://github.com/mmcgrana/ring
15:37	Chouser	(defmulti app :uri) (ring.jetty/run {:port 8080} app) ; whee!
15:38	Chousuke	heh
15:39	Chousuke	github is slow :(
15:39	Chousuke	I hear they're working on it though. I wish them success :)
15:40	hiredman	indeed
15:49	lrenn	technomancy: after looking at corkscrew, ivy is of no use to you since you use it to build.
15:49	lrenn	technomancy: i think you might have some issues with a few of you shell scripts as well.
15:49	lrenn	technomancy: other than that, pretty neat.
15:50	technomancy	lrenn: well that's basically my first non-joke shell script, so no surprises there.
15:50	lrenn	technomancy: yeah, while trying to debug it I saw the comment :)
15:50	technomancy	using corkscrew to build is just bonus though; it'd be pretty easy to move that out of maven.
15:50	stuartsierra	Are agent actions dispatched with "send-off" queued in the order they are sent?
15:50	technomancy	well, so says me anyway since I have yet to encounter a non-trivial build process modulo dependency resolution.
15:50	weissj	what's wrong with (-> @testscript getClass getDeclaredMethods) ? -> doesn't work like ..?
15:51	Chousuke	weissj: you need .getClass and .getDeclaredMethods
15:51	weissj	oh right
15:51	stuartsierra	i.e. if I write (do (send-off a one) (send-off a two) (send-off a three)) do I know that the actions will execute in the order one,two,three?
15:52	technomancy	stuartsierra: pretty sure it will; you can double check what class is used for queueing in Agent.java if you want to be sure.
15:52	stuartsierra	ok
15:53	stuartsierra	It appears to work.
15:58	stuartsierra	,(let [a (agent [])] (dotimes [i 1000] (send a conj i)) (await a) (apply < @a))
15:58	clojurebot	true
16:09	weissj	is there a compliment to nil?
16:09	weissj	i mean a compliment to (nil?) ?
16:09	Chouser	(complement nil?)
16:09	Chouser	:-)
16:10	weissj	i know there's (not nil?)
16:10	weissj	but i mean one fn
16:10	Chouser	Yeah, I understand. I don't think so.
16:10	weissj	k
16:11	Chouser	#(not (nil? %)) or (complement nil?)
16:11	cemerick	there's always if-not and when-not, too
16:11	Chouser	many higher level things have their own complementes
16:11	Chouser	right, if-not, when-not, remove instead of filter
16:17	drewr	I have a doseq that is traversing a lazy-seq of stuff from a db that's somehow running out of heap
16:17	drewr	if I babysit it and run System/gc periodically, it frees memory up
16:18	drewr	but I shouldn't have to do that
16:19	drewr	I can count the whole stream and it doesn't run out of memory
16:19	Chouser	ew
16:19	Chouser	sorry
16:19	drewr	I guess I'm doing something in the doseq that's holding onto the head
16:20	Chouser	if you're actually holding the head, I don't thing a System/gc would help.
16:20	drewr	right, that's what I thought
16:20	drewr	of course me calls to .freeMemory are completely unscientific
16:20	drewr	it may just be illusory
16:21	tomoj	why is it unscientific?
16:21	tomoj	too many other variables?
16:21	drewr	just randomly hitting it from the repl
16:21	drewr	to see if it's rising or falling
16:37	Chousuke	Chouser: heh, I should've used #() in my golfing attempt :(
16:47	hiredman	:D
16:48	hiredman	clojurebot responded to ~def + in a xmpp muc
16:49	hiredman	~ping still gets me a NPE
16:50	technomancy	hiredman: you got clojurebot on xmpp?
17:03	osaunders	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer
17:03	osaunders	That means I'm trying to execute a number right?
17:03	osaunders	,(1)
17:03	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
17:04	osaunders	Can that exception occur for any other reason?
17:05	hiredman	those are the same exception but for different reasons
17:05	hiredman	java.lang.ClassCastException means something is trying to cast something to something it isn't
17:05	osaunders	Oh wait, I worked it out.
17:06	osaunders	,(conj 1 [])
17:06	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
17:06	osaunders	,(conj [] 1)
17:06	clojurebot	[1]
17:06	osaunders	:-)
17:19	osaunders	When do you use let? I haven't yet needed it.
17:20	tomoj	all the time? :)
17:21	osaunders	Why?
17:22	hiredman	for local names
17:22	osaunders	You don't need that though.
17:22	osaunders	Right?
17:23	tomoj	I assume clojure is still turing complete without it
17:23	Chousuke	you do, unless you want to do a lot of unnecessary typing/computation
17:23	technomancy	osaunders: you never _need_ it. you use it sometimes to cache values in order to avoid calculating them twice, and sometimes just to give a value a more readable name.
17:23	tomoj	but it can be useful
17:23	tomoj	here's a simple example: I'm matching a string against a regex with re-matches
17:23	tomoj	well.. guess that's not a really good example
17:24	Chousuke	I mean, which is better: (let [x (first s)] (+ x x x)) or (+ (first s) (first s) (first s))?
17:24	tomoj	that's a good example :)
17:24	osaunders	(apply + (repeat (first s)))
17:24	osaunders	3 in there
17:24	Chousuke	you forgot take 3
17:24	Chousuke	but that's contrived
17:25	Chousuke	never mind that (* 3 (first s)) is even better :P
17:25	tomoj	I have some code here where I have to do some conditionals based on a string, but it needs to be parsed to an int before I can check it
17:25	Chousuke	but still, let is not something you'd want to do without.
17:25	tomoj	rather than reparse it in every single conditional, I use let to bind it to a local name
17:25	Chousuke	especially because it has destructuring
17:25	osaunders	Hm.
17:25	osaunders	I don't think I get this language at all sometimes.
17:26	Chousuke	what, specifically?
17:26	technomancy	is it a common pattern to have properties that need to get set before a given class loads?
17:27	technomancy	I was assuming they were getting checked at runtime, but that was not the case.
17:27	Chousuke	osaunders: let is like temporary variables in other languages.
17:27	weissj	if i'm calling a java method that has a vararg String... i can't pass it ["hi" "there"], how do i give it a type hint
17:27	osaunders	Chousuke: I'm not saying that just because of let.
17:27	hiredman	god
17:27	technomancy	~doc into-array
17:27	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:27	Chousuke	osaunders: though of course, let bindings are not variable at all :P
17:27	hiredman	osaunders: your code isn't full of calls to defs is it?
17:28	hiredman	def
17:28	tomoj	,(let [[match? month day year] (re-matches #"(\d+)-(\d+)-(\d+)" "08-14-2009")] [match? month day year])
17:28	clojurebot	["08-14-2009" "08" "14" "2009"]
17:28	Chousuke	tomoj: durr.
17:29	Chousuke	I forgot the existence of re-matches completely.
17:29	tomoj	is there something better?
17:29	osaunders	hiredman: Hm, yeah I guess it is.
17:29	Chousuke	pat*
17:30	hiredman	osaunders: :(
17:30	Chousuke	osaunders: then you're most likely doing it wrong :/
17:30	hiredman	very very wrong
17:30	Chousuke	though hopefully not.
17:30	tomoj	the fact that clojure can be used that way is somewhat scary
17:30	Chousuke	osaunders: are those defs inside functions?
17:30	osaunders	Actually no, in this case I don't think I am.
17:30	hiredman	def is only ever for global names, and you should never be re-defing stuff
17:30	technomancy	tomoj: it's a side-effect of allowing interactive development
17:30	osaunders	But I can see that it will be unsustainable.
17:31	tomoj	technomancy: I guess it's not really all that scary. I've just been reading "Out of the Tar Pit" today
17:31	technomancy	hehe
17:31	technomancy	tomoj: I wouldn't be averse to a warning when using def in a non-toplevel context
17:32	hiredman	so clojurebot is also in clojure@conference.thelastcitadel.com if anyone wants to play with him via xmpp
17:33	tomoj	so does that mean I can evaluate clojure in gmail now?
17:33	tomoj	:)
17:33	hiredman	sure
17:34	tomoj	not sure when I would want to do that really, but cool
17:34	clojurebot	that is not what I wanted
17:34	hiredman	I think getting into a mutiluser chat with gmail is weird
17:34	tomoj	oh, I see
17:35	osaunders	What did clojurebot just say that?
17:35	osaunders	*Why did
17:35	Chousuke	it does that sometimes.
17:36	osaunders	lol
17:37	osaunders	Like a swearing uncle... "Oh he does that sometimes."
17:37	Chousuke	~want
17:37	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
17:37	Chousuke	hmm
17:37	osaunders	~uncle
17:37	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:37	Chousuke	I wonder which word he reacted to
17:38	Chousuke	~that
17:38	clojurebot	that is not what I wanted
17:38	osaunders	want something
17:38	osaunders	that
17:38	Chousuke	clojurebot: forget that
17:38	clojurebot	I forgot that
17:38	osaunders	want that
17:39	osaunders	clojurebot: forget want
17:39	clojurebot	I forgot want
17:39	Chousuke	hm
17:39	osaunders	clojurebot: your own head
17:39	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:39	osaunders	clojurebot: forget your own head
17:39	clojurebot	I forgot your own head
17:39	Chousuke	how did he forget want when he had no definition for it? :P
17:39	Chousuke	osaunders: don't abuse the bot please.
17:39	osaunders	Aww :(
17:39	Chousuke	it'll really forget some useful factoid if you keep that up :P
17:40	osaunders	lol OK
17:40	lrenn	I don't suppose there is a way to add a jar to the classpath at runtime eh? I just wrote some wrappers around ivy and it'd be supper nifty to not only download the files, but add them to the classpath as well.
17:41	Chousuke	anyway, clojurebot is programmed to randomly respond to some statements with a factoid, using a fuzzy matching algorithm :P
17:41	Chousuke	lrenn: add-classpath
17:41	Chousuke	lrenn: but that's supposed to be repl-only :P
17:42	Chousuke	lrenn: you should instead make it print out the proper classpath invocation so it can be configured at startup.
17:42	technomancy	lrenn: the only way to do that is to unpack the jars into a directory and have that directory on the classpath at JVM boot.
17:42	technomancy	managing a dynamic classpath is just asking for trouble
17:43	lrenn	Chousuke: I'm fine with it being repl only. Now I can do (rezolve "org" "name" "version") and have it available at the repl.
17:43	Chousuke	you should rename that function :P
17:43	lrenn	technomancy: agreed, but using it with emacs/slime wouldn't be too much trouble. if it blows up i'll just restart slime :)
17:43	lrenn	Chousuke: I should, but clojure already has a resolve :)
17:43	Chousuke	lrenn: ivy-find? :P
17:44	Chousuke	lrenn: "gimme"? :D
17:44	lrenn	Chousuke: was thinking of prefixing it all. I'm just screwing around right now. I'll probably got that route. Find will be reserved for searching (which is in ivy as well).
17:52	lowlycoder	how do I actually install clojure into /usr/local; rahter than something like java -cp ~/build/clojure/clojure.jar clojure.main
17:52	Chousuke	short answer: you don't. but you can put a launcher script in some bin directory.
17:53	lowlycoder	got it; question 2: how do I get openGL in clojure? perferably with access to opengl 3.0 functions
17:53	Chousuke	hmmh
17:53	Chousuke	there are java opengl libraries. through them I suppose.
17:53	Chousuke	then there was that clojure opengl library, ...
17:53	Chousuke	but I forgot what it's called.
17:54	Chousuke	ah, http://github.com/ztellman/penumbra/tree/master
17:54	lowlycoder	cloggle?
17:54	Chousuke	cloggle was the other one. but penumbra looks neater :)
17:55	Chousuke	I've never done anything with opengl so I'm not fit to judge :P
17:58	lowlycoder	it appears penumbra has GLSL support
17:58	lowlycoder	nice :-)
18:02	lowlycoder	okay, it looks very very strongly like glsl support is in there
18:02	lowlycoder	i'm convincd this is the right library
18:02	lowlycoder	thanks :-)
18:35	andyfingerhut	If I've got a possible performance bug to tell Clojure developers about, is it best to send it to the Clojure Dev group, or is there some other preferred method?
18:36	andyfingerhut	Hmm, maybe not, since the info for that Google group says only members can post.
18:36	hiredman	the google group is moderated
18:36	hiredman	or at least it was
18:36	hiredman	your first post had to be ok'ed by rich
18:36	andyfingerhut	So the regular Clojure group, then?
18:37	hiredman	I think that may be best
18:37	hiredman	I am kind of curious to hear about this performance bug
18:38	andyfingerhut	I had a little test program for allocating different kinds of data structures, and one created 500K PersistentVectors.
18:39	andyfingerhut	I used jmap -histo:live to see what objects were live at the end of that, and there were 500K instances of java.util.concurrent.atomic.AtomicReference still around, live.
18:39	andyfingerhut	This was purely sequential code.
18:39	Chousuke	you can also use the support system on assembla I guess.
18:40	andyfingerhut	My guess is that those should be temporarily allocated while creating a vec, but the references to them should perhaps be set to null after the (vec ...) call is finished.
18:40	hiredman	well, gc doesn't happen in the blink of an eye
18:40	andyfingerhut	True. But is it true that "jmap -histo:live" actually searches out and only reports live objects, as the documentation implies?
18:40	hiredman	no idea
18:41	hiredman	yeah take it to the group
18:41	Chousuke	no-one will fault you even if it happens to be a false alarm. :)
18:41	Chousuke	at least, I hope no-one will
18:41	andyfingerhut	If they do, I can live with it :)
18:42	Chousuke	The group behaves quite well usually. :P
18:42	andyfingerhut	Yeah, I hope I haven't stirred up trouble by starting these benchmarks. Certainly wasn't my intent to cause trouble.
18:44	jnudie	andyfingerhut: trouble maker...
18:45	Chousuke	I think benchmarks are fine as long as they are done to accomplish some objective.
18:46	andyfingerhut	Well, I've given my objective -- figure out what styles of Clojure code give what kind of performance. I certainly don't deal with large data sets all the time, but when I do, I don't want to give up a big constant factor in time or space.
18:47	Chousuke	but you really may have found a memory leak here, so it's worth discussing on the group.
18:47	andyfingerhut	I will send it soon.
18:48	Chousuke	and most times it is rather difficult to squeeze the best performance out of Clojure.
18:48	andyfingerhut	I may even end up with a few additional tips to add to Rich's list of how to improve Clojure performance in inner loops.
18:48	Chousuke	using arrays is no pleasant.
18:48	Chousuke	not*
18:48	andyfingerhut	but his current list is pretty darn good.
18:51	Chousuke	Rich once said that he'd rather work on "fundamental" performance than micro-optimisations. I should find the quote from the logs I guess :/
18:51	hiredman	Chousuke: architectual
18:52	Chousuke	right.
18:52	Chousuke	we have transients, chunked seqs and new new already coming up in the next version. And I guess primitive vectors and non-boxing functions are possible too.
18:53	hiredman	:2009:May:25:17:45:54 rhickey : other than that, things are so simple, architectural things (like the chunked seqs we are discussing) yield much more bang for the buck than micro-optimization
18:54	dnolen	Chousuke: non-boxing functions? has much been said about that?
18:54	Chousuke	dnolen: more than about primitive vectors :P
18:54	hiredman	just rhickey dropping hints I think
18:54	hiredman	"I think I have way to do this"
18:54	hiredman	or something like
18:55	dnolen	which probably means it will happen :)
18:55	Chousuke	dnolen: I think he plans on adding overloads to IFn for a certain number of long and double arguments
18:55	dnolen	wow that's cool.
18:55	andyfingerhut	So my examining the memory utilization was initiated by the "Uncle Bob looking for Clojure help" message a couple days ago.
18:56	dnolen	andyfingerhut: I have a version of his code now that runs in 500ms instead of +25000ms.
18:56	Chousuke	I think one of the primary difficulties in making clojure code performant is telling when boxing and unboxing happens.
18:56	andyfingerhut	(def r (java.util.Random.))
18:56	andyfingerhut	(defn rands [] (repeatedly #(.nextGaussian r)))
18:56	andyfingerhut	(defn points [] (take 400000 (partition 2 (rands))))
18:56	andyfingerhut	(let [hull-points (time (hull (points)))]
18:56	hiredman	:(
18:56	andyfingerhut	Woops. Didn't mean to do all those lines like that.
18:56	andyfingerhut	But it is fairly short.
18:56	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
18:56	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:57	Chousuke	that, and I suppose using arrays can lead to reflection that warn-on-reflection doesn't report :/
18:57	andyfingerhut	If you realize the list returned by defn points, guess how much memory is used per 2d coordinate (all 400K of them) on a 64-bit JVM
18:57	Chousuke	which of course kills performane.
18:57	Chousuke	+c
18:57	dnolen	andyfingerhut: for that example using vectors is pointless
18:57	dnolen	vectors are wrong for that kind of iteration heavy code over primitives
18:58	dnolen	even creating an empty vector in a loop that tight is expensive
18:58	dnolen	even creating an object is expensive
18:58	dnolen	http://github.com/swannodette/convex-hull/tree/master
18:58	andyfingerhut	Every one of the 400K points, in a fully realized list, allocates 2 Doubles (expected), 3 Cons's (expected), and 4 LazySeq's (surprised me at first. I know why 3 of them, but the 4th is still a mystery)
18:59	Chousuke	dnolen: that's very ugly though :/
18:59	andyfingerhut	And on a 64-bit machine, each Cons and each LazySeq is 48 bytes of mem
18:59	andyfingerhut	So for 2 8-byte doubles, on a 64-bit machine we are spending 384 bytes of mem.
19:00	dnolen	Chousuke: exactly. optimization is not pretty.
19:00	andyfingerhut	I'm not saying that this program ought to be coded this way, but when you look at his code, it looks fairy reasonable and natural.
19:00	andyfingerhut	s/fairy/fairly/
19:00	dnolen	also I have a sneaking suspicion now that javac does certain high level byte code optimizations for the JVM that the Clojure compiler currently does not do.
19:01	dnolen	everything in my version is inlined and optimized, and the Java version is still about 6 times faster.
19:01	andyfingerhut	On a 32-bit JVM, it's better, but still 200 bytes per 2d point.
19:02	Chousuke	dnolen: maybe because not everything in the java version is inlined?
19:02	Chousuke	or is it?
19:02	Chousuke	remember, too much inlining can hurt performance too
19:03	dnolen	Chousuke, javac doesn't crazy kinds of analysis. if you have a for loop with no operation, that code actually gets removed!
19:03	dnolen	basically, it'll be some time before you can compete with javac.
19:03	hiredman	dnolen: I'm pretty sure the jit does that
19:03	Chousuke	Clojure pretty much depends entirely on hotspot for optimisation
19:03	JAS415	when is there gonna be a GCC frontend for clojure :-p
19:03	dnolen	hiredman: not as far as I could tell, this doesn't happen in clojure for example. empty loop/recur with no ops takes up time.
19:04	Chousuke	if hotspot fails to optimise, you just get unoptimised gode :P
19:04	Chousuke	... code.
19:04	JAS415	hotspot is really good
19:04	JAS415	especially if you run a function more than once
19:04	Chousuke	JAS415: yeah, it is. but probably optimised for java...
19:04	JAS415	it'll get faster and faster
19:04	JAS415	code is code :-P
19:05	Chousuke	but code patterns are not identical between languages.
19:06	konr	what clojure tutorial do you guys recommend me reading?
19:07	andyfingerhut	what's your background in other prog languages?
19:07	Chousuke	konr: here is some good stuff http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/
19:07	konr	I did some cool things with lisp, know a bit about python and c and web things, but nothing about java
19:08	tomoj	uhh
19:08	tomoj	that page plays a soundclip, lol?
19:08	Chousuke	it does?
19:08	tomoj	I thought we stopped doing that several years ago
19:09	Chousuke	oh it does.
19:09	andyfingerhut	I've got some Lisp/Scheme background before coming to Clojure, too, and I wouldn't call it a tutorial, but I really enjoyed the "Clojure for Lispers" on clojure.blip.tv. About 3 hours long between 2 videos.
19:09	tomoj	<embed> with autostart
19:09	hiredman	haha
19:09	hiredman	is that friends?
19:09	tomoj	isn't that like 10 years ago stuff
19:10	Chousuke	oh, yeah.
19:10	Chousuke	Watch all of Rich's talks.
19:10	Chousuke	if that doesn't sell you clojure, nothing will.
19:10	tomoj	where are they? youtube?
19:10	hiredman	~blip.tv
19:10	clojurebot	blip.tv is http://clojure.blip.tv/
19:10	tomoj	nice
19:10	tomoj	does he defend against no tests in one of those?
19:11	hiredman	http://www.artima.com/designtechniques/hotspot2.html some of these tips seem to be at odds with clojure
19:11	hiredman	no'
19:11	andyfingerhut	Not in the Clojure for Lispers one, at least. I haven't watched them all. He does definitely mention functional code being easier to test.
19:11	hiredman	there is another video somewhere of the talk where I think someone asked about that
19:12	hiredman	but I forget where that video is
19:12	tomoj	I read technomancy say that he mentioned the paper Out of the Tar Pit while defending
19:12	tomoj	I'd be interested to hear what else he said about it
19:12	hiredman	I imagine he just said "there is a great paper about that: Out of the Tar Pit"
19:13	Chousuke	hiredman: yeah, and it does say on the page that this "lore" is outdated by hotspot :)
19:13	Chousuke	or supposed to be, anyway
19:13	technomancy	tomoj: that was the bay area clojure meeting.
19:14	technomancy	and he didn't defend against "no tests" he defended against "you should be the one writing the tests"
19:14	technomancy	big difference
19:14	andyfingerhut	Chousuke: "lore" about "JVM is slow", or lore about testing?
19:14	Chousuke	andyfingerhut: lore about how to make java programs fast.
19:14	tomoj	technomancy: I see
19:15	tomoj	test-first vs test-later ?
19:15	hiredman	http://kotka.blip.tv/file/2286313/ is the bay area clojure meetup
19:15	technomancy	test-first vs regression tests, yeah.
19:16	tomoj	I'm glad the question wasn't "no tests?"
19:16	tomoj	that scared me
19:16	tomoj	hiredman: thanks
19:19	JAS415	testing?
19:23	tomoj	wow, I never realized this
19:23	tomoj	multimethods are like a duckier version of duck-typing
19:24	tomoj	instead of "does it quack like a duck?" you get to pick whatever question you want.. cool :)
19:25	andyfingerhut	Reminds me of a line from a weird Monty Python sketch: "Maurice, you haven't got something a little less _ducky_, have you?"
19:25	hiredman	it's dispatch as it's own thing without being part of a type system
19:25	tomoj	wonder if someone has thought of a cute name for it
19:43	lowlycoder	if comma is white space, what's unquote?
19:44	lowlycoder	the cond change seems really stupid
19:48	tomoj	unquote is ~
19:49	Carkh	what cond change ?
19:49	tomoj	,`(foo ~(inc 3))
19:49	clojurebot	(sandbox/foo 4)
19:49	tomoj	cond is different from CL
19:49	tomoj	I think arc made the change too
19:49	Carkh	oh i was worried for a second =P
19:50	Carkh	it doesn't make a whole lot of a difference from cl
19:50	tomoj	seems sensible to me
19:50	tomoj	why do you need those extra parens?
19:51	Carkh	so you can have pultiple statements
19:51	Carkh	multiple
19:51	Carkh	but cl is not as functional as clojure so that make sense for cl
19:51	tomoj	ah, implicit progn
19:51	tomoj	yeah
19:52	Carkh	so i would disagree that the change is stupid
19:52	tomoj	I think do is meant to me very explicit in clojure
19:52	tomoj	you want to be easily able to see anytime something is nonfunctional
19:52	Carkh	it is not mere syntactic easing, it conveys a meaning
19:54	tomoj	wow, arc's `if` is anaphoric
19:55	tomoj	according to graham, mccarthy said he got cond wrong and it had too many parens :)
19:55	Carkh	well i still beleive it makes perfect sense to have those extra parens for CL
19:56	Carkh	whatver mccarthy might think about it =)
20:09	lowlycoder	at the clojure repl, C-C and C-D both terminate, the repl, but C-h gives me ^H rather than deleting the previous char; how do I fix this (C-h works fine at the zsh shell, so I think it's java/clojure specific)
20:10	technomancy	lowlycoder: you'll want to run your repl inside the rlwrap tool
20:10	technomancy	java's console IO is crapforbrains
20:11	lowlycoder	nice; thanks!
20:33	lowlycoder	user=> (require 'quoted-namespace-symbol)
20:33	lowlycoder	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate quoted_namespace_symbol__init.class or quoted_namespace_symbol.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:33	lowlycoder	user=>
20:33	lowlycoder	clojure was started with: "rlwrap java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main"
20:34	lowlycoder	user=> (require quoted-namespace-symbol)
20:34	lowlycoder	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: quoted-namespace-symbol in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:8)
20:36	technomancy	lowlycoder: most likely "quoted-namespace-symbol" was intended as a placeholder for the name of a real namespace.
20:36	technomancy	what are you trying to do
20:36	technomancy	?
20:36	lowlycoder	page 37 of the clojure book
20:36	technomancy	right.
20:37	technomancy	you want to replace that with the name of the library you want to require.
20:42	mebaran151	that could really screw somebody up, if somebody actually named a library that
20:43	tomoj	if it's a grey block with blue text, you're not supposed to type it
20:43	tomoj	you're supposed to type the reddish text that looks like it's at a repl
20:48	lowlycoder	to use clojure.contrib ... do I use clojure-1.0.0 or clojure from git?
20:49	hiredman	clojure contrib is a seperate package
20:49	lowlycoder	right, but it depends on a version of clojure
20:49	hiredman	sort of
20:49	hiredman	there is a branch of contrib to maintain 1.0 compat
20:50	lowlycoder	hmm, i just built clojure-contrib.jar
20:50	lowlycoder	how do I get (require 'clojure.contrib.str-utils) to work?
20:50	hiredman	then you should be fine
20:50	hiredman	the jar needs to be in your classpath
20:52	lowlycoder	rlwrap java -cp ~/clojure/clojure/clojure.jar:~/clojure/clojure-contrib/clojure-contrib.jar clojure.main
20:52	lowlycoder	Clojure 1.0.0-
20:52	lowlycoder	user=> (require 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)
20:52	lowlycoder	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/str_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/str_utils.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:54	hiredman	,(require 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)
20:54	clojurebot	nil
20:54	hiredman	works here
20:54	hiredman	shrug
20:54	lowlycoder	how do you start clojure?
20:55	_mst	lowlycoder: your second ~/ in the above command line might not be expanding
20:55	hiredman	java -cp etc:etc clojure.main
20:58	lowlycoder	hmm, it appears that i'm not building clojure-contrib properly
20:58	lowlycoder	ls -l ~/clojure/clojure/clojure.jar
20:58	lowlycoder	-rw-r--r-- 1 x x 1502501 2009-08-14 17:41 /home/x/clojure/clojure/clojure.jar
20:58	lowlycoder	ant -Dclojure.jar=~/clojure/clojure/clojure.jar
20:58	lowlycoder	still gives me:
20:58	lowlycoder	[echo] WARNING: You have not defined a path to clojure.jar so I can't compile files.
20:58	lowlycoder	[echo] This will cause some parts of clojure.contrib not to work (e.g., pretty print).
20:58	lowlycoder	[echo] To enable compiling, run "ant -Dclojure.jar=<...path to clojure.jar..>"
20:58	_mst	yeah, it's your ~'s
20:59	_mst	start using $HOME instead of ~ and it should be alright
20:59	lowlycoder	yeah, it is apparently
20:59	Carkh	the contrib warning is only for c.c.pprint
21:00	lowlycoder	is there some var I can export in my ~/.zshrc to make my life easier?
21:00	lowlycoder	woot, rinally got: (require 'clojure.contrib-str-utils) to work
21:03	hiredman	lowlycoder: you running jdk1.6?
21:03	hiredman	1.6 can have * in the classpath
21:03	lowlycoder	yes
21:03	lowlycoder	i'm running 1.6
21:03	hiredman	so you puts all your jars in ~/.jars/
21:04	hiredman	and CLASSPATH="$HOME/.jars/*" in your .zshrc
21:04	lowlycoder	symlinks okay?
21:04	hiredman	sure
21:04	hiredman	.jars or where ever
21:05	lowlycoder	export CLASSPATH="$HOME/.jars/"
21:05	lowlycoder	do i need something else?
21:05	hiredman	setopt allexport
21:06	hiredman	woa
21:06	hiredman	that won't work
21:06	hiredman	* in the classpath is not the samething as the shell glob
21:07	konr	these clojure videos are so cool <3
21:08	konr	the video is not synchronized, though. Is there a way to download them?
21:09	hiredman	on blip.tv?
21:09	konr	yes
21:09	hiredman	yeah you go down on the right side
21:09	hiredman	there should be a "files" menu or something
21:09	lowlycoder	how do I take a clj file and turn it into a *.jar ?
21:09	hiredman	I forget exactly
21:09	hiredman	lowlycoder: a jar is just a zip file
21:10	hiredman	so it kind of depends
21:10	hiredman	if you just want to bundle clojure files up, you can just jar them up and put the jar on the classpath
21:10	hiredman	if you actually want to AOT compile the clojure files to class files the process is slightly more involved
21:11	lowlycoder	i can just jar up a bunch of *.clj files?
21:11	hiredman	sure
21:11	hiredman	as long as they have the correct namespace stuff
21:11	durka42	that will not do what you expect though, doesn't a jar have a bunch of hidden files
21:11	durka42	i mean a jar that can be run with java -jar
21:11	hiredman	depends
21:12	hiredman	durka42: you don't know what he expects
21:13	durka42	this is true
21:13	durka42	i made a baseless assumption
21:14	lowlycoder	i want to build jar files that operate kinda like *.so files
21:15	lowlycoder	i.e. things other clojure apps can load up and use functions from
21:15	hiredman	clojurebot: the point of moby dick is "be yourself"
21:15	clojurebot	Alles klar
21:15	hiredman	lowlycoder: yeah, you can just jar up the files and directory structure
21:15	lowlycoder	just jar up the *.clj files?
21:15	lowlycoder	they aren't even compiled ....
21:15	hiredman	yep
21:15	hiredman	no problem
21:15	lowlycoder	so what, java automatically loads up teh source, runs clojure, then converts them to jvm byte code?
21:16	lowlycoder	how does java even know how to handle clojure files?
21:16	hiredman	nope
21:16	hiredman	you need the clojure.jar
21:17	hiredman	lowlycoder: when you require namespaces the clojure runtime searchs the classpath for the implementation of the namespace
21:17	hiredman	~classpath
21:18	hiredman	clojurebot: hello?
21:18	hiredman	crap, I left a debugging println in somewhere
21:18	clojurebot	classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
21:19	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline hiredman
21:20	hiredman	~namespaces
21:20	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
21:20	hiredman	~compile
21:20	clojurebot	the unit of compilation in clojure is the namespace. namespaces are compiled (not files). to compile a namspace the namespace needs to be on the classpath and so does ./classes/ (and the directory needs to exist) because clojure writes the class files to that directory. http://clojure.org/compilation
21:21	hiredman	share and enjoy
21:59	_hrrld	Does anyone know where I can find an example of using clojure.contrib.logging successfully? I'm calling trace, but it's not clear where the log output is going.