#clojure – 2009-03-17

2009-03-17

00:01	gavin___	I also see the InterruptedException on a (Thread/sleep 10) like you describe
00:02	durka42	when i press C-c, or run "kill -INT <pid>" the REPL just exits
00:02	gavin___	durka42: did you run (add-break-thread!) first?
00:02	durka42	oh, no i didn't
00:02	gavin___	;-)
00:03	Chouser	if we get all these kinks worked out, perhaps the repl will someday do this by default
00:04	gavin___	would be nice, the other day I was about to gouge my eyes out from having to kill and restart my repl over and over ;-) too much fun with infinite sequences
00:05	Chouser	you've tried print-length ?
00:05	gavin___	no, I need to. But I think I wasn't smart enough to use lazy sequences to begin with, i.e. my code really was going into an infinite loop
00:05	gavin___	loop/recur madness
00:08	Raynes	gavin___: You have too many _'s in your name. Feel's like you're calling a function and disregarding its arguments.
00:09	gavin___	lol. I don't really use irc much, just typed gavin into my client and this is what i got
00:10	Raynes	You can change your nick with /nick if you want.
00:12	gavinds	thanks, found one!
02:32	Raynes	I'm learning all sorts of swingfoo.
02:32	Raynes	I'm about to drown in BorderLayouts
03:53	Raynes	Getting people to check out Clojure is almost a sport to me now.
04:02	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents
06:00	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
06:00	clojurebot	max people is 162
06:51	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd, What is max people ?
06:51	Lau_of_DK	~max people?
06:51	clojurebot	max people is 162
06:51	Lau_of_DK	~162?
06:51	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
07:05	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: the highest number of people at the same time in this channel.
07:05	AWizzArd	Record is 162.
07:05	Lau_of_DK	Oh ok
07:05	Lau_of_DK	So its the record of all time
07:06	AWizzArd	Yes.
07:06	AWizzArd	I remember when it was around 80 in October.
07:06	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: hmm, since you came here the number of users doubled
07:06	Lau_of_DK	As expected...
07:06	Lau_of_DK	:D
08:36	gnuvince	Good morning
08:37	rhickey	gnuvince: hey - did you get anywhere in your perf tuning?
08:39	gnuvince	rhickey: nowhere yet, I'm planning to branch my code and try different approaches. I'm beginning to think that my declaration of byte fields might be suboptimal.
08:40	rhickey	you should focus on your innermost loop(s) - profiling should have pointed that out, but that profiler output looked goofy
08:45	gnuvince	The weird profile output was due to the JVM packaging problem in Hardy; running it on my Ibex machine gave me a much more "believable" output.
09:01	lpetit	hi all
09:02	gnuvince	Hello lpetit
09:06	blbrown_lt	hello all
09:46	danlarkin	big mistake coming into the office today... we're three floors above an irish bar and I can still hear them
09:47	gnuvince	danlarkin: hahaha :)
09:47	gnuvince	awesome
09:57	Chouser	,(assoc (bean Integer) :a 1)
09:57	clojurebot	java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException
09:57	Chouser	hm.
09:57	Chouser	I get java.lang.AbstractMethodError
09:58	p_l	anyone knows the state of trivial-http? I'm wondering whether I should modify the lib to use drakma or leave trivial-http in...
09:59	danlarkin	Chouser: it works on my box
09:59	Chouser	danlarkin: what rev do you have?
10:00	danlarkin	clojure 1327, java 1.5
10:00	Drakeson	compojure.html provides a handy way for generating html from trees, like [:html [:body [:p "Hello world]]] -> what you would expect. Is there a reverse convertor?
10:02	Chouser	danlarkin: ok, that rev works for me too
10:02	danlarkin	ah ha
10:02	Chouser	1328, 1329, 1330 were all proxy patches. bean uses proxy. it's broken now.
10:06	Chouser	1328 works fine
10:06	Chouser	for this test, anyway
10:06	Chouser	1329 breaks it
10:08	cgrand	,(.assoc (bean Integer) :a 1) ;works...
10:08	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission accessDeclaredMembers)
10:09	Chouser	huh
10:10	Chouser	but casting the proxy to Associative first breaks it?
10:13	rhickey	danlarkin: current svn passes all 2278 assertions in contrib tests
10:15	rhickey	cgrand: you'll probably need to look at what javac generates in the same scenario - covariant returns inherited from multiple interfaces
10:16	rhickey	probably two methods, one marked as bridge
10:17	Chouser	yikes. I bet I'll have to understand that soon.
10:18	Chouser	or maybe I'll just crib off of whatever cgrand comes up with.
10:19	rhickey	Chouser: you'll need to understand that because ... ?
10:20	cconstantine	clojure newbie here. Is there anyway (besides 'take') to end an infinate sequence?
10:20	Chouser	rhickey: so that 'instance' can emit the right code.
10:20	cconstantine	preferably with a tester func
10:21	rhickey	Chouser: I see - how's that going?
10:21	Chouser	I haven't started on any emits yet, so perhaps I misunderstand what I'll need to understand
10:21	rhickey	I'd like to get involved ASAP, ASAP being after ILC
10:21	Chouser	I'm enjoying it.
10:21	Chouser	oh!
10:21	Chouser	well
10:21	rhickey	A good first target is source code
10:22	rhickey	emit target
10:22	Chouser	there's a chance that by then analyze/compile will be done.
10:22	cconstantine	cconstantine: take-while thanks :)
10:22	Chouser	a good chance it will be sorta working, but may need a lot of cleanup
10:23	rhickey	I have a lot of ideas about this (obviously), doing something a second/third time is always productive
10:23	Chouser	I'm learning as I go -- generally I translate a class or method a bit rote, not understanding. Then it clicks and I can clean it up a bit.
10:23	rhickey	One thing I'm not sure will be possible from source is locals clearing
10:24	Chouser	yeah, if you need to look at what I've done, smile politely, and do it over from scratch, I won't be offended. :-)
10:24	rhickey	I want to get ASM out on its own
10:26	Chouser	what I have is still very mutable -- lots of dynamic vars and even a few atoms. But I'm afraid of removing that the Wrong Way before I understand where the mutation is currently being used.
10:27	rhickey	Chouser: that will have to go at some point. as I said before, I think I'd be happy to pass/return more than I did in Java
10:27	Chouser	I expect to have analyze for all the special forms "done" in the next couple days, and was then planning on cleaning out all the mutation.
10:29	rhickey	def is only marginally special, I'd like to make it not so, leaving let/letfn/do/if/./try/loop/recur/instance/quote/var/assign ...?
10:31	Chouser	I've got let, loop, do, instance so far. Working on "dot" now
10:31	rhickey	I would thread the environment through analyze, and have it return an (extensible) map
10:31	Chouser	I hope you find some of this code useful, but I really don't know.
10:32	rhickey	Chouser: I think it would be a fantastic addition and appreciate the help
10:32	Chouser	my code's not up anywhere yet. I would hesitate to show it to anyone, but if that'd be better than me trying to describe it...
10:32	rhickey	could easily see new ActionScript and ObjC targets
10:32	Chouser	yes, absolutely
10:33	Chouser	This is already the level at which ClojureScript works
10:33	rhickey	Clojure ... on ... iPhone ... (I dare not consider)
10:33	Chouser	:-)
10:33	Chousuke	hmm, writing firefox extensions in clojure...
10:34	shoover	Chouser: What the heck are you talking about? the clojure-log hasn't caught up
10:34	Chouser	analyze currently takes a single form arg -- everything else is in dynamic vars (even context, because I didn't see why it should be special)
10:34	rhickey	hrm
10:35	Chouser	so I think it'll make the most sense to pass two args -- form and an "env" map
10:35	Chouser	and similary return two things: the ast of the form, and an updated env map.
10:36	rhickey	Chouser: env definitely implies environment of names, maybe context map, which would include environment et al
10:36	Chouser	then places that currently have (into [] (map analyze args)) would have to be some kind of reduce
10:36	rhickey	most analysis doesn't return modified env, but does need to communicate a few things out, esp. closed-overs
10:37	rhickey	and nested instances
10:37	Chouser	shoover: The clojure compiler is currently written in Java. We're talking about re-writing it in Clojure.
10:37	shoover	ah
10:38	Chouser	rhickey: ok, it's the details of what can be "changed" by sub-forms that I need a better grasp of before I try to kill all the mutation.
10:39	Chouser	I'm under the vague impression that sets of vars, keywords, constants, etc. need to bubble up
10:40	Chouser	I'm very pleased with the LOC-per-concept, and the grouping of code by multimethod rather than by type. I think it makes the whole thing much easier to understand.
10:40	rhickey	right, encapsulated in registerXXX
10:40	Chouser	...as will removing mutation.
10:40	rhickey	+ closeOver
10:42	Chouser	1000 LOC for analyze + compile + emit might be a bit optimistic
10:42	rhickey	Lisp in Lisp is really quire easy and pretty
10:42	rhickey	quite
10:43	Chousuke	how are you going to handle bootstrapping the thing? are you just going to keep the java compiler in for bootstrapping purposes? :/
10:44	rhickey	Chousuke: yes, some version of Clojure will always exist from now on
10:44	Chouser	I need a better name for eval/expr/statement context. "context" is too vague
10:44	rhickey	it needn't be the Java version, just AOT-compiled
10:44	Chousuke	right.
10:45	rhickey	Chouser: ah, that context, never goes away with these targets...
10:46	Chouser	I keep hoping eval will, but yes I assume expr vs. statement is important.
10:46	Chouser	is that "emit context"?
10:46	rhickey	expr/statement/return
10:46	Chouser	ah, yes
10:46	rhickey	emit-context is fine
10:47	rhickey	it is very much about the target capabilities/distinctions
10:48	rhickey	one thing that is tricky is that right now some lambda wrapping/lifting occurs during analysis, might not apply to all targets (but probably will)
11:17	Chouser	anyone know of a static method in the standard Java library that takes 0 args?
11:18	cgrand	Chouser: look at Desktop
11:19	triddell	System.currentTimeMillis() ?
11:19	Chouser	great, thanks guys.
11:19	blbrown_lt	Runtime.systemCurrentTimeMillis() ...or whatever
11:19	blbrown_lt	triddell, beat you
11:19	blbrown_lt	of course mine is wrong
11:26	triddell	term
11:31	marklar	Has anyone here done anything with Android? I'm trying to put a class I created using gen-class (extends SurfaceView) into a layout file and it can't find the class
11:32	marklar	or another way to ask that is if I call something like (ns net.marklar.clojuretests :gen-class :name surfaceview.... what would be the fully qualified name of that class?
11:35	danlarkin	marklar: http://github.com/remvee/clojurehelloandroid/tree/master
11:37	marklar	danlarkin: Yes, I've looked at that... I've been able to load programs programs into the emulator and run them, but I'm having trouble loading this custom class in a layout
11:37	marklar	I have a feeling it has to do with the fully qualified name of the class that is generated
11:38	danlarkin	I think the class name would be net.marklar.clojuretests.surfaceview
11:39	marklar	danlarkin: yeah, thats what I thought, thanks
11:39	danlarkin	although I haven't really done much at all with gen-class
11:39	danlarkin	so I could be wrong, and often am!
11:40	marklar	danlarkin: the two of us couldn't be wrong, could we?!?!
11:40	Chouser	I think you need to fully-qualify the :name arg
11:41	marklar	Chouser: ah, ok I'll give that a shot
11:41	Chouser	":name aname The package-qualified name of the class to be generated"
11:41	marklar	ah thanks
11:41	marklar	guess we could be wrong ;)
11:42	Chouser	it's pretty common to leave out the :name arg, and do one class per namespace/file
11:42	Chouser	oh
11:42	Chouser	nm
11:42	Chouser	don't leave out the :name arg. :-)
11:42	Chouser	"Options should be a set of key/value pairs, all except for :name are optional"
11:42	marklar	Chouser: lol ok :)
11:42	danlarkin	:o
11:43	danlarkin	I'm not using :name :-[
11:43	danlarkin	and it worked! a few revisions ago anyway
11:43	marklar	I think there is a difference between using (gen-class) and (:gen-class) right?
11:43	marklar	I've used :gen-class without a name before
11:44	rhickey	(doc ns)
11:44	clojurebot	Sets ns to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it if needed. references can be zero or more of: (:refer-clojure ...) (:require ...) (:use ...) (:import ...) (:load ...) (:gen-class) with the syntax of refer-clojure/require/use/import/load/gen-class respectively, except the arguments are unevaluated and need not be quoted. (:gen-class ...), when supplied, defaults to :name corresponding to the ns name, :m
11:44	marklar	rhickey: ah, thanks
11:46	danlarkin	here's my one and only use of :gen-class, http://github.com/danlarkin/madison/blob/59dd04cd3723e9fbcb83ca40724e18312106bc9d/src/madison/main.clj
11:47	danlarkin	and that gets Main-Class'ed in the jar
12:23	jhawk28	I think I got Issue 34 fixed
12:24	jhawk28	:)
12:42	jhawk28	I posted the fix to the Clojure group
12:43	AWizzArd	jhawk28: did you sign the Clojure Contributor Agreement?
12:43	jhawk28	yep
12:44	jhawk28	Joshua Foster (jhawk28)
12:44	jhawk28	http://clojure.org/contributing
12:44	AWizzArd	Then your fix has a chance to get checked in :)
12:44	jhawk28	as long as its not too noobish
12:45	rhickey	jhawk28: that seems to miss the main intent - you are reading something you don't necessarily trust, so it is unlikely to contain #r, the idea behind a flag is: (binding [read-eval false] (read untrusted-source))
12:46	rhickey	i.e. it requires no new reader syntax, just the reader looking at read-eval
12:47	jhawk28	the problem with the (binding [read-eval false] (read untrusted-source)) is that the reader does not have visibility of the read-eval at read time
12:47	rhickey	why not?
12:47	jhawk28	its not in the thread scope
12:48	rhickey	sure it is
12:49	rhickey	you just have to access the var from Java, and use .deref
12:50	rhickey	will see the thread-local binding
12:50	jhawk28	the .deref always pointed to the inital value of true while in the reader
12:50	jhawk28	it would point to false if I used set! instead of binding
12:51	jhawk28	but set! changes the global value instead of thread local
12:52	rhickey	none of that is true
12:53	jhawk28	most likely, Im a clojure newb
12:53	rhickey	set! can't change a root binding, and dynamic bindings are visible during a read nested within binding
12:53	rhickey	can you paste what you tried?
12:53	jhawk28	just so that I understand what you are saying...
12:55	jhawk28	(binding [read-eval false] #=(eval (def x 3)))
12:55	Lau_of_DK	Hi guys
12:55	jhawk28	I may have been focussing on the wrong problem
12:55	WizardofWestmarc	heya Lau
12:55	jhawk28	I was trying to disable the use of the EvalReader which is #=
12:56	rhickey	jhawk28: you are mixing up the reading of that expression and its evaluation, people aren't going to put (binding [read-eval ... in the thing being read
12:57	rhickey	they are going to do an explicit read/load-file inside a binding
12:57	rhickey	the thing they are reading might contain #=, which they want to disable
12:57	jhawk28	ah, ok like the load-string
12:59	rhickey	right, or read-string
13:00	jhawk28	(binding [read-eval false] (load-string "#=(eval (def x 3))" ))
13:00	jhawk28	I knew I was missing something
13:00	rhickey	it's unlikely to be load, since it is untrusted
13:01	rhickey	read-string should be your use case
13:01	jhawk28	ok, thanks
13:01	jhawk28	I'll remove the extra reader and add the doc for read-eval to the core.clj
13:03	jhawk28	should I be using Var.get or deref? get calls deref
13:03	rhickey	deref
13:06	rhickey	http://constc.blogspot.com/2009/03/relativity-of-simultaneity.html
13:10	danlarkin	this opening paragraph sure is glowing
13:13	danlarkin	he puts his idea into words well, I think. I like it
13:14	Chousuke	It made me think about the sinfest Buddha character who in some strips just walks around without saying anything and touches the other characters on the forehead and ping they experience a moment of Zen
13:32	pjstadig	clojurebot: any message?
13:32	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:33	pjstadig	bah
13:37	fanda	hello!
13:38	fanda	I have question about the reader
13:38	fanda	http://clojure.org/reader
13:38	fanda	Numbers say "as per Java"
13:39	fanda	I found that e.g. "2." read Java as double and Clojure as int
13:40	fanda	all these read as double in Java:
13:40	fanda	2. .1 +.0 -.0 +2. -2.
13:41	fanda	Clojure either sees them as int or errors out
13:41	fanda	ok, not ok?
13:42	jhawk28	I think you need 2.0 0.1 +0.0 +2.0 -2.0
13:43	fanda	yes, I know - I am just wondering about consistency Java vs. Clojure reader
13:43	fanda	do we want to copy all Java behavior exactly?
13:43	pjstadig	fanda: i'm not sure how exactly Clojure is supposed to match Java in that regard
13:43	pjstadig	but could be a bug
13:44	fanda	I will post it to the group
13:45	fanda	it's apparently rhickey's call to answer
13:46	fanda	thanks!
13:48	Chousuke	I don't think being able to use .5 instead of 0.5 is a significant enough convenience that it should be supported. :/
13:49	danlarkin	well I think he's just asking about the inconsistency
14:13	jhawk28	fanda: 2f is not accepted in Clojure as a float
14:14	jhawk28	fanda: I have a feeling that the "as per Java" is in reference to the types and limitations associated with the type rather than the syntax of the type
14:17	fanda_	jhawk28: I posted a question to the group, so hopefully Rich answers
14:18	fanda_	it is more of a theoretical question than any need
14:20	hiredman	the 2f thing sounds familiar, it may have come up before
14:20	fanda_	(float 2) ? ;-)
14:22	hiredman	I think someone was asking for clojure's reader to read 2f as a float
14:24	fanda_	yes, floats are supposedly faster than doubles, so number crunching people use floats
14:42	lisppaste8	beatis-fly pasted "lame merge" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77190
14:43	baetis-fly	anyone feel like telling me how to make the above a little less ... lame?
14:44	rhickey	baetis-fly: add a comment that describes what it is supposed to do? ;)
14:45	baetis-fly	rhickey: ah, that would be helpful wouldn't it :) It does what it's supposed to do (i think). Takes two sorted collections and returns a single one. I know there are other ways to do this, but I wanted to do it from scratch.
14:46	baetis-fly	rhickey: it's the classic merge used in a merge sort.
14:47	baetis-fly	rhickey: actually, the two lists don't have to be sorted...takes two unsorted cols, returns one sorted col made up of the elements of left and right. which is still an awful explaination.
14:47	baetis-fly	rhickey: ug, scratch that last one. they do have to be sorted.
14:47	cmvkk	nah, if you pass unsorted colls to it, the result won't be sorted.
14:48	baetis-fly	yeah, brain melted there for a second.
14:48	baetis-fly	anyway, it works for what I want it to do, but I hate the reverse i have to do when i'm done, and i just feel like some functional wizard could do it in one line :)
14:49	cgrand	baetis-fly: use a lazy-seq instead
14:50	baetis-fly	cgrand: see, i was going to get to that as well, but was having a hard time understanding it. Do I just have to wrap the whole thing in (lazy-seq o?
14:51	cmvkk	basically, then instead of recur, you (cons (first left) (merge-col (rest left) right)) or something like that
14:53	baetis-fly	and I don't have to worry about the stack I take it?
14:54	cmvkk	that is my current understanding, yes.
14:56	lisppaste8	cgrand annotated #77190 "for; baetis-fly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77190#1
14:59	baetis-fly	cmvkk: doesn't quite work, but i get the idea. That's pretty awesome. Many thanks.
15:02	lisppaste8	beatis-fly annotated #77190 "lazy version fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77190#2
15:02	lisppaste8	cgrand annotated #77190 "now with matching parenthesis!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77190#3
15:02	baetis-fly	:) thanks again. that's really cool.
15:03	cgrand	didn't see you fixed it :-)
15:04	slashus2	baetis-fly: Or you could just use concat
15:04	slashus2	wait
15:04	slashus2	forget I typed anything
15:05	hiredman	!
15:05	hiredman	the skills matter podcast whatever is up
15:09	lisppaste8	rhickey annotated #77190 "merge-coll redux" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77190#4
15:11	baetis-fly	rhickey: that looks cool too. has the added benefit of making me learn what :as is for ;)
15:15	Chousuke	that is asking for a merge-coll-by :)
15:15	Chousuke	or -with perhaps
15:22	slashus2	One of my professors went to the Washington D.C. conference on parallel computing last weekend, and he said that people there were excited about clojure.
15:23	hiredman	http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4617600643842067036&hl=en
15:24	danlarkin	heh, I saw that date, 12-30-2009, and I was like... uhhh what? it's not December yet
15:24	danlarkin	03, rather
15:38	hiredman	crazy little-endian dates
15:38	Raynes	Could someone give me an example of something that a set would be useful for.
15:38	Raynes	I'
15:38	Raynes	I'm drawing blanks.
15:39	hiredman	a collection of things with no dupplicates
15:39	hiredman	also sets are functions of their members
15:39	hiredman	so doing lookups
15:41	Retonator	hey guys what is the best starter to learn some clojure (i have read most of the blogs and the main site etc...), maybe some project euler problems?
15:41	Raynes	Programming Clojure.
15:41	Raynes	Wonderful book.
15:42	hiredman	yeah, euler is good for learning the sequence functions
15:43	harpastum	I'm currently working through this detailed article: http://ociweb.com/jnb/jnbMar2009.html
15:43	harpastum	you might try that
15:44	Chouser	also good for learning to work with immutable collections
15:44	Retonator	yeah i have been looking at the book didn't know if it would be a good investement
15:44	Chouser	immutable locals
15:44	Retonator	harpastum: i will be looking at it
15:45	Retonator	yeah i really have to read up on all the data structures
15:45	Chouser	well, read some, but trying to use them will teach you quick.
15:45	Raynes	I was wondering because, I'm conjoining a number too a vector after every button click and then getting the numbers from that vector and doing stuff with them, but a set would work just the same.
15:46	Raynes	A set would probably be more appropriate.
15:46	Chouser	Raynes: if the order doesn't matter, sure.
15:46	Retonator	yes trying things out is worth alot
15:46	hiredman	well, do want a set of unique elements, or a vector of numbers?
15:46	danlarkin	order or dupes
15:46	Raynes	Nope, sure doesn't.
15:46	Retonator	harp: seems a pretty good link
15:46	Raynes	Oh I see, you can't have duplications in it.
15:46	Raynes	Vector it is.
15:47	Chouser	you want to know how many of each number, but the order doesn't matter?
15:48	hiredman	do you even need the properties of a Vector?
15:48	Raynes	I just need something I can put 2 numbers in, and then first-last them out.
15:49	Raynes	I don't need anything special at all.
15:49	Raynes	That's why a vector seemed like over kill.
16:05	Retonator	maybe a noob question but if i read correctly all of the other clojure functions are build up of, off the special forms?
16:06	harpastum	Yup. They're either built-in functions or macros using the special forms
16:06	harpastum	Although I'm no expert, I think that's right
16:06	Retonator	ok thanks
16:07	Chousuke	some of them use java methods too.
16:07	Retonator	but they use the . special form i guess?
16:07	Chouser	yes
16:07	Chousuke	yeah, or its lispier cousin :)
16:07	Chousuke	(the .method form)
16:08	Chousuke	but that's a macro which is transformed into the . form
16:08	Chouser	reader macro
16:08	Chouser	essentially
16:09	Chouser	same for AClass/staticMember -- built in macro-like foo turns that into (. AClass staticMember)
16:09	rhickey	Chouser: not a reader macro, normal macroexpansion time
16:10	rhickey	user=> (read-string "(.foo bar)")
16:10	rhickey	(.foo bar)
16:10	rhickey	user=> (macroexpand (read-string "(.foo bar)"))
16:10	rhickey	(. bar foo)
16:10	harpastum	Is there any way to get the java documentation of a function within the REPL?
16:10	Chouser	hm. yes, but you can't define such a macro yourself
16:10	Retonator	what is a reader macro? some special form expanded by the reader?
16:11	harpastum	sorry to disrupt the conversation
16:11	rhickey	true, but doesn't make it a reader macro - that's important for other macros, can treat .foo as a symbol
16:11	Chouser	rhickey: ok, yes.
16:11	Chouser	harpastum: (doc doc)
16:11	Retonator	no problem harp
16:11	harpastum	(doc Math/pow)
16:11	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:12	Chouser	harpastum: oh, java docs, sorry. (javadoc Math)
16:12	Chouser	harpastum: but for that to work you need (use 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
16:13	harpastum	ok
16:14	harpastum	I'm getting a filenotfound exception when i try that
16:14	harpastum	it doesnt look like i have the contrib package
16:15	harpastum	I'm working from the packaged version of clojure, does that make a difference?
16:15	harpastum	i.e. not svn
16:16	Chousuke	contrib is separate from clojure itself
16:16	Chouser	contrib's only available via svn or git, but you should be able to grab a similarly dated version of contrib and get that to work
16:16	Chouser	http://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/source/checkout
16:17	Chousuke	harpastum: a recent version of contrib won't work with the release because of changes in SVN
16:19	Retonator	are function defined without namespace always in the user/ namespace?
16:21	Chouser	Retonator: they're always put in the current namespace, which defaults to user
16:22	Chouser	you can change that with 'in-ns' or the 'ns' macro.
16:22	Retonator	ok thanks
16:24	hiredman	well, fns (function objects) don't seem to have a concept of their location in the realm of names
16:24	Retonator	maybe something different but what do you guys think about computer science education and the emvasis on declartive / imperative languages? I know that i had some class (years back) on clean(functional language) and that most of the ppl really had problems understanding anything, just do to there brain used to declartive / imperative thinking
16:27	harpastum	Well, I'm a computer engineer, and one of my professors told us today that PHP is a functional language
16:27	harpastum	so i'd say we're not doing too well
16:27	hiredman	heh
16:29	p_l	Retonator: I just read about how bad OOP is for introductory teaching :P
16:29	powr-toc	p_l: sounds like an interesting article :-) , have you got a link?
16:29	Retonator	and why is that?
16:30	Retonator	not that i dissagree
16:30	Retonator	-s
16:30	p_l	Retonator: compare "Hello World" in Pascal and Java :>
16:30	jhawk28	p_l: but what about all those pretty pictures?
16:30	jhawk28	(OO diagrams)
16:31	hiredman	php's anonymous function creation is, uh, wow
16:31	powr-toc	p_l: that's a weak argument... compare helloworld in Pascal to Helloworld in smalltalk or ruby...
16:31	Retonator	i don't think the size of hello world is an argument ;)
16:31	p_l	http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.24941 (newer one), http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.18854 (previous one)
16:32	powr-toc	ugh, not the bcs!! :-\
16:32	p_l	Retonator: in Ruby or Pascal or C or Lisp etc. the hello world will be a simple set of instructions... in Java you'll have to build an OOP skeleton just to write one line of output :>
16:32	p_l	lol @ powr-toc
16:33	harpastum	"It is well known that students, regardless of their background, find programming the least popular aspect of their studies"
16:33	harpastum	really?
16:33	kotarak	What would be an elegant way to transparently provide some functionality depending on whether another module is available?
16:33	p_l	I find it not popular because it's redoing the same thing for n-th time
16:33	Retonator	mm i actually liked programming the most ;)
16:33	p_l	(for me)
16:33	jhawk28	harpastum: for the average CS stutent, yes
16:34	p_l	Retonator: When you are force-fed Java while for last few year you have been basking in Ruby/Python/CL/Haskell/Erlang...
16:34	jhawk28	how many professionals do you see actually coding at home?
16:34	harpastum	I must just be black sheep then
16:34	harpastum	I enjoying programming in _java_
16:35	Retonator	me 2
16:35	p_l	harpastum: BlueJ makes it harder >_>
16:35	powr-toc	amateurs FTW! :-)
16:35	harpastum	clojure just makes everything easier
16:35	Retonator	i enjoy learning lots of languages
16:35	jhawk28	I work at a defense contractor and most coders dont do anything technical outside of work
16:35	jhawk28	and Defense contractors have mostly "average coders"
16:35	powr-toc	jhawk28: Professional Software Engineers make me embarrased to call myself a professional!
16:36	jhawk28	the good ones go home and still code
16:36	jhawk28	powr-toc: professional meaning, get paid to code
16:36	Retonator	yeah i guess that is the meaning
16:37	p_l	(and I was paid for it)
16:38	Retonator	i still get paid, but i code mainly IL code ea c#, so it was very nice to read that clojure can target the clr in some time
16:39	powr-toc	jhawk28: professional, meaning gets paid to code, and assumes bcs membership means they are somehow better at what they do than people who enjoy coding and shun professional bodies for the racketeering jobs they are!
16:39	p_l	Retonator: there's also F#
16:40	p_l	powr-toc: I'm only looking through BCS in order to get access to some "professional" networking :)
16:40	jhawk28	retonator: probably not any time soon - look at the troubles Fan has for CLR and JVM compatability
16:40	powr-toc	p_l: lol
16:40	hiredman	I got $100 to fix someone's asp page that wasn't sending emails properly
16:40	p_l	powr-toc: basically, to get enough contacts to find some work
16:41	Retonator	i did look at f# for some time it is mainly in the spirit of ocaml
16:41	Raynes	F# is a mess. :\|
16:42	powr-toc	p_l: you're on irc, in an obscure chatroom talking about an obscure functional language... Why aspire to professionalism when you're clearly already way beyond most professionals? :-)
16:42	Raynes	I'd still rather use it than C# though.
16:42	powr-toc	p_l: What I'm saying is, I don't think my rant applies to anyone in here! ;-)
16:42	Raynes	D isn't so obscure anymore.
16:42	Raynes	CLojure*
16:43	Raynes	I'm positively amazed at the rate that the language is growing and gaining users.
16:44	Raynes	Clojure that is. ._.
16:44	hiredman	clojurebot: what do you think of clojure?
16:44	clojurebot	clojure is far closer to perfection then python
16:44	harpastum	Being one of those new users (just started a couple days ago), I'm surprised it isn't already widely used
16:45	Raynes	I've said that about many languages, like Haskell and Scala. But Clojure looks like it might take the cake too me.
16:45	Raynes	to
16:45	Retonator	what makes you think that raynes
16:45	harpastum	my main language is objective-C, which I enjoy because of the great base that cocoa provides.
16:46	p_l	powr-toc: it's the pitiful little thing known widely under the sign of �
16:46	harpastum	the comedy i find
16:46	Retonator	do you think most "common" programmers are ready for the clojure paradigms?
16:46	harpastum	is that i've been using mutable datatypes in immutable languages
16:46	harpastum	when it's really better the other way around
16:46	Raynes	Retonator: Just the fact that the language design is awesome, and it's powerful. People can't deny that Clojure has a lot going for it. People who see it are impressed by it and I've yet to see someone who hasn't been.
16:47	Raynes	I don't think that there is any such thing as a "Common" programmer. There are programmers who care about programming and would do it even if profit wasn't involved and there are those who just want cash.
16:47	powr-toc	Raynes: I agree, clojure's gaining a hell-of-a-lot-o' traction... but trust me, for most people in the industry it's obscure if it's not sold on golf courses or by Microsoft ;-)
16:47	Retonator	but if i refer back to my first saying on the education and the problem people had with functional languages. i mean been impressed is one? but coding them selves
16:47	Raynes	We are attracting number 1 at the moment, but number 2 might come eventually if Clojure ever gets used in the industry.
16:48	harpastum	Raynes: I think it's very similar to the difference between craftsmen and carpenters
16:48	Raynes	I think that people have a problem with "pure" functional programming actually. They hear about functional programming and find out that Haskell is the end all be all of functional programming, they try to learn it and get discouraged.
16:49	Retonator	and people are so used to side-effect
16:49	p_l	there's also a visible split between "traditional" programmers and people who had come to programming by finding that you can make pretty effect in JS and add some dynamism with PHP
16:49	Raynes	Haskell can ruin your view on functional programming, or it can open up a world of possibilities. It all depends on your experience.
16:49	harpastum	Side-effects never bothered me until my most recent project
16:50	harpastum	trying to explore possibilities in game trees is a pain in the ass in java
16:50	Raynes	I've seen so many people hear about functional programming, try to learn Haskell, fail, and then start posting blogs on why functional programming is impractical.
16:50	Retonator	why do you guess they fail?
16:51	Raynes	Don't get me wrong, Haskell is a wonderful language, I just wish people didn't think that Haskell is equal to functional programming as a whole.
16:51	harpastum	Probably the massive paradigm shift
16:51	Raynes	Retonator: Monads, for one.
16:51	Raynes	Is that a rhetorical question?
16:52	Raynes	Functional programming can be /toned/ down and still be the "best thing evar".
16:52	baetis-fly	Raynes: expect the same thing when java folks start looking at scala.
16:52	Raynes	I've seen even functional programmers have issues with Scala.
16:52	Chousuke	you don't need a functional language to do functional programming. it just helps. a lot :P
16:52	Raynes	Something about the type system. I don't know, never really messed with scala.
16:53	Chousuke	the basics of functional programming could be taught with something more familiar like ruby or python
16:53	Raynes	Ugh.
16:54	Raynes	Or they could just be taught with Clojure.
16:54	Raynes	:)
16:54	jhawk28	Clojure is a little easier to teach functional to a Java dev because of the ability to loop
16:54	Chousuke	Clojure might be a bit too alien if the learner already knows a bit about programming.
16:55	Raynes	I don't think so.
16:55	Raynes	I really don't understand why Clojure could ever be hard for anyone.
16:55	Chousuke	but if you start with functional principles in python or something, it wouldn't be too difficult to transition to clojure.
16:55	jhawk28	the difficulty with Lisp and other forms are the shortcuts - Java is mostly all spelled out
16:56	Raynes	Clojure is the simplest programming language I have ever used.
16:56	Raynes	Yet the funnest as well.
16:56	Retonator	btw this is a very nice article ;) http://ociweb.com/jnb/jnbMar2009.html
16:56	jhawk28	its a feature when you know what the keywords mean, but learning can be a challenge
16:57	Chousuke	Raynes: yeah, clojure is simple and fun, but it's rather different from the traditional language where you have return statements and special keywords and syntax for stuff
16:57	Raynes	,(println "Hello, world!")
16:57	Chousuke	I think the lack of an explicit return statement is one thing that can throw off beginners.
16:57	clojurebot	Hello, world!
16:58	Chousuke	you could first show them in python or something that it doesn't really matter that much :)
16:59	hiredman	define beginers
17:00	hiredman	I mean, if you know nothing about programming, who cares about a "return statement"
17:00	Chousuke	hiredman: beginners to functional programming.
17:00	Chousuke	experienced programmers are actually more difficult than beginners I suppose
17:00	hiredman	shrug
17:00	Chousuke	the problem is that not everyone "gets it" without putting significant effort into breaking their old mental model.
17:00	Retonator	how do i load a contrib lib in the slime repl, like this (require 'clojure.contrib.repl-utils)
17:01	Retonator	should it be on some path?
17:01	Chousuke	once your brain decides something is good, convincing it otherwise can be really difficult.
17:02	jhawk28	Mutability is a good example, it takes more work to write everything in an Immutable way
17:03	Chouser	at first
17:03	jhawk28	but, show someone a complicated mess of an object model in a concurrent environment and they start to wish it was immutable
17:03	Chousuke	jhawk28: that's not even the whole problem. To some people, it might not make any sense at all that you can even do things with immutable data.
17:03	Retonator	because ppl are used to mutabilty not because it is easier by default
17:04	Chousuke	jhawk28: they might be used to thinking in "commands" that are used to effect a change in some complex machinery.
17:04	Chousuke	it'll take a lot of effort to change that way of thinking.
17:06	Chousuke	and in reality, that's the way the machine works at the lowest level anyway.
17:07	jhawk28	using Java as the context for mutability, it is simpler to write a Javabean that is mutable than trying to keep it immutable
17:07	hiredman	there was just some paper on making hardware behave functionally
17:07	Chousuke	functional memory would be interesting :/
17:08	Chousuke	you'd have to have hardware garbage collection or something...
17:08	hiredman	jhawk28: yeah, and java beans are a core programing concept
17:08	Retonator	i have clojure-contrib.jar on the classpath of swank but still i can't use the source function even after an require
17:08	Retonator	what am i doing wrong?
17:09	hiredman	http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3234
17:09	powr-toc	regarding immutability... I'm not sure if it's really that hard... Or if people will dislike it, particularly because it doesn't have any of the cosmetic problems of single-assignment like Erlang
17:09	hiredman	"A New Approach to the Functional Design of a Digital Computer"
17:09	hiredman	hah
17:09	hiredman	1961
17:10	hiredman	I really should pay attention to dates on things
17:10	powr-toc	in clojure that is
17:10	Chousuke	powr-toc: immutability is not really difficult. you just need to get used to it.
17:10	kotarak	How can I transparently use some code if an optional module is available or fall back to some default implementation?
17:11	hiredman	kotarak: you have a some kind of place where code can "register"
17:12	Chouser	kotarak: you could look at contrib.lazy-xml
17:12	hiredman	then you have a multimethod that dispatches based on what is registered
17:12	Chouser	I'm not saying it's perfect, but I try to do it there -- if the xpp.jar is in the classpath, use it. Otherwise, silently fall back on SAX.
17:12	powr-toc	Chousuke: My point exactly... I always felt when showing people erlang they disliked it because of it's single assignment syntax... but clojure doesn't have that cosmetic barrier of having Var1, Var2, Var3 etc...
17:13	powr-toc	yet it still has immutability :-) My point is that people almost always judge the book by it's cover (or something else rather superficial)
17:14	Chousuke	clojure doesn't have much of a cover to look at :)
17:15	Chouser	lisp. lisp has all those parens. I don't like it. Oooh, scala...
17:15	Chousuke	just an assortment of brackets and identifiers.
17:16	Chousuke	Chouser: yeah but the first thing they notice when they come to clojure.org is the logo and they go "ooh, shiny"
17:16	powr-toc	Chousuke: well clojure's biggest (only?) problem regarding mainstream adoption is that it looks like lisp... obviously one of it's biggest advantages is that it actually IS a lisp.
17:16	kotarak	Chouser: I tried a, (try (require ...) (catch Exception _)) but that didn't work. Maybe the trick is to load the file. Will try. Thanks for the pointer.
17:17	powr-toc	Chouser: you beat me to it ;-)
17:17	Chousuke	powr-toc: I think the judicious use of [] and {} make the paren soup much more bearable.
17:17	Chousuke	powr-toc: Though it takes a while to get that I guess.
17:18	Chouser	kotarak: the problem is that the exception is thrown before eval, at compile time, so you need to make the compile happen inside your try/catch
17:18	powr-toc	Chousuke: yeah, I agree... I really like the use of vectors for argument definitions etc... it's almost like having syntax highlighting
17:18	Chousuke	but you rarely need to wonder whether a (foo bar) is evaluated as a function call or whether it's a macro, because it's more clojurey to use [foo bar] in your syntax when writing a macro.
17:18	jhawk28	once the main editors have the full Clojure support, the parens become less of an issue
17:18	kotarak	Chouser: which is done inside the other via load, right?
17:18	Chouser	kotarak: right
17:18	kotarak	Chouser: good. :) will try
17:19	Chouser	plus it lets me put all the stuff that depends on that jar in its own file. works out nicely
17:19	Chouser	...until you AOT compile. :-/
17:19	powr-toc	Chousuke: whenever I look at examples of lisp code in books, I find myself missing the square brackets etc... Especially because the lisp classics were printed before syntax highlighting was common place
17:19	Retonator	who do i know what clojure has on the classpath from a repl?
17:20	Retonator	who = how
17:20	Chousuke	powr-toc: I always stop to wonder whether it's a function call or just special macro syntax :/ The vector form offers a huge readability boost that IMO can not be stressed enough :)
17:21	Chouser	Chousuke, powr-toc: yes!
17:21	triddell	Retonator: (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
17:21	powr-toc	Chousuke: yeah, it really helps in disambiguating macros
17:24	Retonator	thanks triddel
17:25	Chousuke	the html libraries are good examples. you have something like (html [:html [:body [:table (map generate-table-entries dataseq)]]]) and it's almost obvious the keyword-vectors are part of the macro DSL.
17:25	duncanm	can someone give me a quick example of WHEN-LET's syntax?
17:25	Chousuke	with a function in the middle that obviously has nothing to do with the DSL :P
17:26	Retonator	which contrib lib hold the source function?
17:26	Chousuke	,`source
17:26	clojurebot	sandbox/source
17:26	Chousuke	hm :/
17:27	hiredman	http://github.com/ryanb/ruby-warrior/tree/master <-- this is way cute, it needs porting to clojure
17:27	hiredman	with a nice swing gui of course
17:28	Retonator	,`get-source
17:28	clojurebot	sandbox/get-source
17:29	hiredman	,(when-let [x (#{1 3 4} 2)] (* x 3))
17:29	clojurebot	nil
17:29	hiredman	,(when-let [x (#{1 2 3 4} 2)] (* x 3))
17:29	clojurebot	6
17:38	kotarak	Chouser: thanks :) VimClojure has now transparent pretty printing support if Tom Faulhaber's cl-format is available. :D
17:39	hiredman	kotarak: :D
17:39	Chousuke	hopefully that pretty-printer will be in core sometime soon :)
17:40	kotarak	no dependency, if there => pretty, if not there => prn :)
17:40	kotarak	yeah. that would be nice.
17:40	Chouser	kotarak: woo! great.
17:45	hiredman	kotarak: I just noticed, if I turn gorilla on I cannot use %y to yank a form (everything between matching parens) and paste it between files
17:46	powr-toc	Will any of the clojure-contrib functions/libraries ever get pushed into the clojure distro?
17:47	kib2	powr-toc: I was just asking myself the same question
17:47	hiredman	normally if I put the cursor over a paren an type "%y" it will yank everything between matchin parens, then I switch to another tab and P or p to paste
17:47	hiredman	this behaviour no longer works with gorilla enabled
17:47	kotarak	hiredman: you mean probably y%. Hmmm... works for me.
17:47	kotarak	What happens ?
17:48	Chouser	powr-toc: some already have
17:48	kotarak	hiredman: Instead, I mean. Does it paste some garbage? or nothing at all?
17:48	Chouser	use/require and friends started out in contrib and was moved over
17:48	hiredman	it pastes a blank line
17:48	kotarak	hiredman: let me try with a tab.
17:49	hiredman	acutally "%y" and "y%" do the same thing
17:49	powr-toc	Chouser: Are there any criteria for inclusion?
17:49	kotarak	hiredman: not for me. % moves to the closing paren and y waits for a motion.
17:50	kotarak	hiredman: y% yanks to the matching paren.
17:51	Chouser	powr-toc: sure, the criteria is that rhickey decides to include it.
17:51	Chouser	:-)
17:51	powr-toc	Chouser: And that's not a bad one :-)
17:51	kotarak	There was a poll once. What was the result?
17:52	hiredman	kotarak: neither works with gorilla enabled
17:52	Chouser	kotarak: a little report which everyone ignored.
17:53	powr-toc	I'm just wondering if it's mostly restricted to addressing language holes... or if there will ever also be basic libraries for other stuff, e.g. HTTP-clients/SMTP/XML etc...
17:53	Chouser	there's xml parse/emit already in core
17:54	Chouser	which is an annoying and specific way of saying I don't know
17:54	slashus2	hiredman: How complicated is your security policy with your bot?
17:54	powr-toc	lol
17:54	kotarak	hiredman: can you send me your vimrc and your zipped .vim directory? Several people reported strange issues with copy'n'paste. All these things work for me..... So it would be good to get a failing setup for bug hunting.
17:57	hiredman	it seemed to work there for a minute, but I exited vim and restarted and it stopped working
17:58	slashus2	hiredman: Do your permissions allow for things like file-seq ?
17:58	hiredman	nope
17:59	slashus2	I was playing around with your sandbox, and when I inserted it into my bot and ran eval-in-box it allowed for (file-seq) I am guessing the magic is in the .policy file?
18:00	hiredman	the policy file and turning on the security manager
18:01	slashus2	So the policy file dictates what the security manager does?
18:01	hiredman	uh
18:01	hiredman	Yes
18:01	hiredman	it is kind of complicated, let me order it in my mind
18:03	hiredman	the security manager is off, if you turn the security manager on, the permissions you get by default are very limited and you cannot do anything. and you need the security manager on in order to sandbox code
18:03	hiredman	so the policy file tells the secutiry manager to allow everything, and later on in hiredman.sandbox a seperate context is created with no permissions in which sandbox code is executed
18:04	hiredman	acutally it isn't no permissions, I think it is the same set of permissions which applets get
18:09	Lau_of_DK	Talk from QCon up anywhere yet?
18:10	slashus2	hiredman: I am wondering why... I can do a file-seq with mine.
18:11	hiredman	slashus2: is your policy file in place? do you enable the security manager?
18:11	gnuvince_	Hi
18:13	WizardofWestmarc	Lau: Not qcon I don't think but another talk Rich gave around the same time: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4617600643842067036&hl=en
18:13	lisppaste8	slashus2 pasted "policy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77204
18:14	slashus2	hiredman: Okay, I think this is going to work. I created a policy file with
18:14	hiredman	slashus2: I have no idea if that is enough to run clojure
18:15	slashus2	It appears to be working.
18:15	hiredman	interesting
18:15	hiredman	hmmmmm
18:15	slashus2	When I first start it, I get java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission clojureevalbot.clj read)
18:15	slashus2	:-)
18:16	hiredman	well, the policy file defines the permissions for the whole jvm
18:16	slashus2	right
18:16	hiredman	so if you don't put file io in there then file io won't happen
18:16	Lau_of_DK	thanks WizardofWestmarc
18:17	WizardofWestmarc	plus it adds to my collection of clojure links on delicious, always a plus
18:17	slashus2	hiredman: I was trying to eliminate the possibility of someone reading files off my system.
18:17	slashus2	Maybe if the last thing that I ran was the activation of the Security Manager.
18:17	slashus2	That way clojure already read everything that it needs?
18:18	hiredman	~sandbox
18:18	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
18:18	hiredman	slashus2: the policy file while required for sandbox is sort of a red herring
18:18	hiredman	hiredman.sandbox is where the "magic" happens
18:19	slashus2	I see that it isn't activated by default.
18:19	hiredman	clojurebot's policy file allows everything, but, it evals code in a new security contex that disallows IO
18:19	slashus2	So your sandbox won't run? (file-seq (java.io.File. "/"))
18:19	hiredman	,(file-seq (java.io.File. "/"))
18:19	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission / read)
18:19	slashus2	:-\|
18:21	slashus2	Don't know why it is doing that with me using your code.
18:21	hiredman	just a) use the policy file included in the clojurebot git b) use eval-in-box from hiredman.sandbox
18:21	hiredman	and
18:22	hiredman	enable the security manager
18:22	hiredman	java -Djava.security.manager or I think there is a function in hiredman.sandbox to enable it
18:22	slashus2	I think I understand now.
18:22	slashus2	The sandbox uses the security manager, but a hack to get it to work is to enable all security at the first.
18:23	hiredman	clojurebot: clojure is also a language to use if you want to up your game
18:23	clojurebot	Ok.
18:23	hiredman	slashus2: Yes
18:44	hiredman	so .. doesn't require dots in methods?
18:44	kotarak	hiredman: (.. obj method method), I would use ->, it's more general (-> obj .method .method)
18:45	hiredman	Excellent
18:47	WizardofWestmarc	later guys, have a good evening
18:49	jhawk28	hiredman: does the EvalReader work around the IO limitation?
18:51	jhawk28	,#=(eval (file-seq (java.io.File. "/")))
18:51	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission / read)
18:51	jhawk28	nope
18:54	hiredman	jhawk28: the sandboxing happens at the jvm lavel
18:54	hiredman	level
18:55	hiredman	below the clojure runtime
18:55	hiredman	,#=(System/exit 0)
18:55	clojurebot	System
18:56	hiredman	eh?
18:56	hiredman	,#=(eval (System/exit 0))
18:56	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0)
18:58	jhawk28	interesting
20:21	slashus2	hiredman: I found that if I ran (doto (javax.swing.JFrame.) (.setVisible true) (.show)) in a chatroom through the bot, it creates a window on my screen.
20:41	duderdo	Hi!
20:43	duderdo	While trying to build clojure with ant on Debian5.0 I'm getting the error "Compliance level '1.4' is incompatible with target level '1.5'. However, ant -diagnostics shows java.runtime.version as 1.5.0.
20:45	blbrown	debian 5 doesn't have java 6. Woa, well I won't be using that anytime soon
20:45	durka42	off-topic: is there an svn wizard in the house?
20:46	Chouser	rhickey can do branches and merges now, so I think he's your man.
20:47	durka42	:)
20:47	durka42	i'm only trying to do the former
20:48	duderdo	But... ant says it is runtime version 1.5.0, which is why I'm confused
20:50	slashus2	Doesn't debian 5 have openjdk?
20:50	durka42	huh, i don't even have trunk/branches/tags folders
20:54	Chouser	durka42: yeah, you have to make those manually
20:54	Chouser	durka42: you're sure you don't want to use git?
20:55	durka42	i kinda do
20:55	durka42	i'll make that the next project, once this application goes live :)
20:55	durka42	after that, i'll rewrite it using clabango
20:56	Chouser	anyway, you can "svn mkdir" for trunk and branches, then "svn mv" your other top-level dirs into trunk
20:56	Chouser	then "svn cp" trunk into "branches/my-new-branch" or whatever. I think that would do it
20:57	Chouser	you probably have to check everything in between one or two of those steps... svn is a little weak in the mind, can't understand too much at once.
20:57	durka42	that it is
20:57	durka42	i want git's chunked commits, though
21:02	Chouser	i use git svn for clojure and contrib. it's nice.
21:02	Chouser	branches are a breeze
21:03	slashus2	hiredman: I tried to add an item to the bad forms and I realized that it isn't checking the top level form.
21:51	hiredman	what in the what now?
22:02	dnolen	,(macroexpand-1 '(fn [a b] (+ a b)))
22:03	hiredman	clojurebot well?
22:03	hiredman	clojurebot: well?
22:03	dnolen	darn
22:03	hiredman	oh
22:04	baetis-fly	so, swank-clojure/slime work fine on my linux box, but on my mac I only get the inferior-lisp buffer, no slime repl buffer. Same .emacs. Only difference is I'm using an older version of slime on linux. any thoughts?
22:04	dnolen	baetis-fly, emacs-starter-kit seems to eliminate a lot of the config problems have you tried that
22:04	dnolen	so clojurebot is out?
22:05	dnolen	kaput?, well perhaps someone knows the answer anyway.
22:06	dnolen	Clojurians- why does (macrexpand-1 '(fn [a b] (+ a b))) ->
22:06	dnolen	(fn* [a b] (+ a b))
22:06	baetis-fly	dnolen: thanks, but I don't want to replace my years of tweaking my .emacs for some one elses. looks like a great project though.
22:07	dnolen	baetis-fly: i know what you mean, are you using latest swank-clojure, clojure-mode and slime from github? that works for me.
22:07	jhawk28	hiredman: clojurebot doesnt look to be part of the channel
22:08	baetis-fly	dnolen: thanks, i'll try the slime from git hub. I'm using the cvs version.
22:09	jhawk28	,(println "welcome back all!")
22:09	clojurebot	welcome back all!
22:09	dnolen	,(macorexpand-1 '(fn [a b] (+ a b)))
22:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: macorexpand-1 in this context
22:10	dnolen	,(macroexpand-1 '(fn [a b] (+ a b)))
22:10	clojurebot	(fn* ([a b] (+ a b)))
22:10	dnolen	voila!
22:10	dnolen	what the heck is fn*?
22:11	hiredman	more primitive fn
22:11	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(fn [[a b]] (+ a b)))
22:11	clojurebot	(fn* ([p__1016] (clojure.core/let [[a b] p__1016] (+ a b))))
22:13	dnolen	interesting
22:15	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(fn [[a b]] (+ a b)))
22:15	clojurebot	(fn* ([p__1022] (clojure.core/let [[a b] p__1022] (+ a b))))
22:15	hiredman	:/
22:16	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(clojure.core/let [[a b] p__1022] (+ a b)))
22:16	clojurebot	(let* [vec__1027 p__1022 a (clojure.core/nth vec__1027 0 nil) b (clojure.core/nth vec__1027 1 nil)] (+ a b))
22:16	baetis-fly	according to the slime NEWS file, the repl is no longer loaded by default. why on earth would they do that?
22:17	dnolen	baetis-fly: wow, SLIME is weird project, powerful stuff in there but some things don't make sense. I've gotten broken builds a couple of times.
22:18	dnolen	I suppose you could a slime load hook tho yrself, but it's annoying.
22:18	baetis-fly	(slime-setup '(slime-repl))
22:18	baetis-fly	The news file tells you how to get the old behavior.
22:18	baetis-fly	(as pasted)
22:52	slashus2	hiredman: Did you fix the (doto (javax.swing.JFrame.) (.setVisible true) (.show)) case?
22:56	cconstantine_	I'm trying to find the max in a sequence. In the doc it looks like pmax is what I want, but when I try to use it I get an "resolve symbol" error. Could I get some help?
22:58	Chouser	,(reduce max [2 5 3 4 1])
22:58	clojurebot	5
22:58	cconstantine_	oh fancy :)
22:59	cconstantine_	Thanks, I'm a clojure newb but I'm trying
23:02	Jedi_Stannis	is there a function that does #(partition-by identity %)?
23:03	Chouser	Jedi_Stannis: I think you just wrote it.
23:05	Jedi_Stannis	Chouser: ok thanks, just wasn't sure if there was a function already in the api that did it. sometimes its hard to find it, and I don't won't to be rewriting functions that already exist
23:06	durka42	hmm, don't try and compile something that depends on clojure.jar while clojure.jar is being compiled in the background :)
23:08	durka42	Jedi_Stannis: isn't that #(partition 1 %) ?
23:12	Chouser	Jedi_Stannis: sure, it's a valid question but I think you found the easiest way to do it
23:14	durka42	oh, i see
23:34	pstickne	wow.
23:34	pstickne	so popular :p
23:34	pstickne	so uhm...
23:35	pstickne	I guess this means I should install clojure ^^
23:35	markgunnels	Absolutely.
23:35	markgunnels	:-)
23:35	markgunnels	And then pull Compojure.
23:39	pstickne	Err...