#clojure – 2009-03-16

2009-03-16

00:13	Mec	does emacs have code completion?
00:22	Raynes	Mec: There is a hack in the wikipage to make it tab complete.
00:22	Raynes	iirc
00:37	Mec	,(replace {0 'b 1 'a} ['a 'b])
00:37	clojurebot	[a b]
00:38	Mec	is there a way to replace by index instead of by value
00:39	dreish	assoc
00:40	Mec	ah nice, thanks
01:21	Mec	any chance of a library function that creates an infinite sequence by repeatedly calling a function on an initial value?
01:21	Mec	smells like recur
01:21	Mec	err iterate
01:36	hiredman	clojurebot: do you understand emotion?
01:36	clojurebot	this model does not support emotionml as spec'd in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotionml-20081120/
01:40	hiredman	clojurebot: does rest ever return a unicorn?
01:40	clojurebot	rest never returns a unicorn
01:40	cmvkk_	Mec: repeatedly ?
01:41	Mec	naw iterate is what i wanted, repeatedly doesnt take an init value
01:41	cmvkk_	oh, aha.
01:59	Mec	ok how do you find the index of a value in a vector, i must be getting too tired
02:14	hiredman	,(find [1 2 3] 3)
02:14	clojurebot	nil
02:14	hiredman	hmm
02:15	hiredman	ah
02:17	hiredman	,(map-invert [1 2 3])
02:17	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: map-invert in this context
02:18	hiredman	,(clojure.set/map-invert [1 2 3])
02:18	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
02:18	Mec	surely there's a way to search thru a vector
02:21	hiredman	,(let [v [1 2 3]] (first (filter #(= 3 (v %)) (range (count v)))
02:21	clojurebot	EOF while reading
02:21	hiredman	,(let [v [1 2 3]] (first (filter #(= 3 (v %)) (range (count v))))
02:21	clojurebot	EOF while reading
02:21	hiredman	bah
02:21	hiredman	dunno
02:21	hiredman	it's never come up
02:21	hiredman	,(let [v [1 2 3]] (first (filter #(= 3 (v %)) (range (count v)))))
02:21	clojurebot	2
02:22	hiredman	wait
02:23	hiredman	,(map #(.getName %) (.getMethods (class [])))
02:23	clojurebot	("withMeta" "withMeta" "withMeta" "nth" "assocN" "assocN" "count" "pop" "pop" "cons" "cons" "cons" "empty" "create" "create" "create" "seq" "equiv" "valAt" "valAt" "assoc" "assoc" "entryAt" "rseq" "invoke" "add" "add" "get" "hashCode" "compareTo" "indexOf" "clear" "equals" "toString" "length" "isEmpty" "lastIndexOf" "contains" "addAll" "addAll" "size" "toArray" "toArray" "iterator" "remove" "remove" "containsKey" "set" "c
02:23	hiredman	,(.indexOf [1 2 3] 3)
02:23	clojurebot	2
02:23	hiredman	:P
02:26	slashus2	,(.length [1 2 3 4])
02:26	clojurebot	4
02:27	hiredman	,(.clear [])
02:27	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException
02:28	Mec	well now
02:28	Mec	that's refreshing
02:28	hiredman	somewhat embarressing I did not remember that right away
02:30	Mec	looking in javaland completely slipped past me
02:31	hiredman	it's a big place
02:31	hiredman	the kingdom of nouns
02:33	slashus2	Is something like indexof going to be in the core for vectors?
02:33	slashus2	and or sequences in general
02:34	hiredman	why would it need to be?
02:34	hiredman	it is already there
02:35	hiredman	I imagine we just need a big honking like to the javadoc for Collections
02:36	hiredman	~jdoc java.util.Collection
02:36	hiredman	link
02:40	heanol	~clojurebot
02:40	clojurebot	clojurebot is amazing
02:40	heanol	hehe
02:40	heanol	are there any sources for the bot?
02:40	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
02:40	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
02:41	heanol	thanks
02:41	slashus2	hiredman: Aren't things like "count" alternatives for the .length in a collection?
02:42	hiredman	~def count
02:42	slashus2	I am looking at the source code. It doesn't use .length I see.
02:43	hiredman	my internet is so slow
02:43	hiredman	still waiting for that to load
02:44	slashus2	I am looking at the count method in RT
02:44	hiredman	I am headed there
02:44	slashus2	It kind of unifies the different length sizeOf getLength things.
02:45	hiredman	hah
02:45	hiredman	google code thinks this file is under the bsd license
02:48	hiredman	I guess that is the reason for count
02:48	slashus2	Things were the api is not consistent on the java side may give incentive to cook something up in RT. That may not be the case with indexOf.
03:04	Raynes	Mec: I just got a bit of your can't-spell-for-shit blues. There is no matching method .setVisable in swing ;)
04:59	Lau_of_DK	Hey everybody
07:05	Lau_of_DK	Im running a websolution out of compojure/jetty as a servlet - Anyway to force the content-type in the header to be text/html instead of text-plain ?
07:15	Lau_of_DK	I got it, nvm
07:47	Mec	Raynes: what's the actual method?
08:16	Chouser	rhickey: welcome back
08:17	rhickey	Chouser: thanks - did you hold down the fort?
08:17	Chouser	nope, no need. The bench keeps getting deeper.
08:17	rhickey	that's great
08:18	rhickey	QCon was awesome
08:18	Chouser	I didn't realize you had several talks until the play-by-play on twitter.
08:19	rhickey	yeah, the second talk was a new one - it went pretty well:
08:19	rhickey	http://olabini.com/blog/2009/03/qcon-london-thursday/
08:19	Mec	hmm not and nil? seem identical, do they have an oppisite
08:20	Chouser	not and nil? return different values for an arg of false
08:22	Lau_of_DK	"rich spent alot of time talking about state" Hmm, sounds familiar :)
08:22	Mec	true enough chouser
08:23	rhickey	The state talk was the best formulation of some of the key ideas of Clojure I've come up with so far - I'll be including it in my ILC tutorial Sunday
08:23	Lau_of_DK	ILC?
08:24	rhickey	http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/2009/index
08:24	Lau_of_DK	Oh that one - This talk you gave has some interesting slides, but is the talk itself available somewhere?
08:25	Lau_of_DK	RE ILC, cool man, you'll be speaking with Gerald Jay Sussman :D
08:25	Holcxjo	rhickey: Thanks for the talk on Thu evening -- I tried to talk to you in the pub afterwards but you were gone all of a sudden
08:25	rhickey	QCon records everything, but they dribble them out over time - I had two talks and an interview recorded
08:25	Lau_of_DK	k
08:26	Mec	any chance of screencasts on your recent talks?
08:26	rhickey	Holcxjo: yeah, I followed some people upstairs, but the group split
08:26	rhickey	Mec: they'll come to the InfoQ site over time
08:27	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: Sussman is a great speaker, I'm psyched to see his talk
08:27	Mec	excellent
08:28	Lau_of_DK	rhickey, I can very well image jealous
08:28	Lau_of_DK	:)
08:28	rhickey	I spent a couple of hours in a pub in a fascinating conversation with Joe Armstrong (Erlang)
08:28	Lau_of_DK	s/image/imagine
08:28	Lau_of_DK	cool- Anything interesting come out of it ?
08:29	rhickey	Met also a couple of other Erlangers - Steve Vinoski and Ulf Wiger - very nice guys and receptive to Clojure
08:30	rhickey	Lots of other really interesting people at the conference as well
08:31	rhickey	This is probably the best exposure a Lisp has had at an industry conference in a long time
08:35	Lau_of_DK	Sounds very cool
08:35	Lau_of_DK	Guess you've hit the bigtime now :)
08:36	Lau_of_DK	A little disappointing maybe, that you were in London and didnt stop by DK, but we can forgive
08:36	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: not quite :)
08:36	Lau_of_DK	no?
08:40	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: there was a passing mention by the organizers of http://jaoo.dk/aarhus-2009/
08:50	Lau_of_DK	I haven't heard of that before, but if you decide to show up, please keep me posted
09:35	Mec	can you (apply recur list)?
09:36	Chouser	no, recur is a special form
09:36	Mec	i suppose i can just destructure the binding
09:42	Chouser	Compiler$FooExpr classes are very ... mutable.
09:55	keithb	Is there a difference between the meanings of ; and ;; as comment indicators? I've seen both used.
09:55	gnuvince	keithb: it's more of a convention: ; is used inline, ;; is usuall on its own line
09:55	gnuvince	;; example function
09:56	fogus	I think ;; just makes things stand out a little better
09:56	gnuvince	(defn foo []
09:56	gnuvince	(+ 3 4)) ; greatest operation ever
09:56	keithb	gnuvince: fogus: Thanks.
09:58	arbscht	;; typically gets indented as well
09:58	arbscht	(defn foo []
09:59	arbscht	;; greatest operation follows
09:59	arbscht	(+ 3 4))
09:59	Chouser	Is this a convention borrowed from an earlier lisp?
09:59	arbscht	from emacs :)
10:23	rhickey	Chouser: don't emulate that mutability. Mostly it's just for the intimately-related Parser class
10:24	Chouser	rhickey: some of it will be difficult to avoid, like parent pointers going from fnmethods on up.
10:24	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
10:24	clojurebot	max people is 149
10:25	AWizzArd	uh, it was 162 before
10:25	Chouser	clojurebot forgot some things
10:25	AWizzArd	I see
10:26	rhickey	Chouser: I'd like to see where it's not possible - one thing for sure is that I avoided passing some things up/down that now I would readily do rather than use the dynamic vars
10:32	Mec	is there a way to do default values for function args, without arity?
10:33	AWizzArd	What means "without arity"?
10:33	Mec	overloading
10:33	AWizzArd	Should not every function have an arity? Even if it is 0? (in that case it is a constant or has side effects)
10:34	Mec	arity is the number of args
10:34	AWizzArd	so each function must have an arity
10:34	Mec	(defn f ([x] x) ([x y] (+ x y))
10:34	AWizzArd	anyway, you could make the function take hashmaps
10:35	Mec	hmm
10:35	AWizzArd	hashmaps are the idiomatic way to do this in Clojure
10:36	AWizzArd	you can call (f {:x 10 :y 20}) or just (f {:x 10})
10:37	AWizzArd	and it will (merge {:y (:x arg)} x) inside the function f
10:38	AWizzArd	if x does not contain an {:y value} it will use the {:x val} in x
10:38	Mec	ah that could work
10:40	AWizzArd	oh, this should have been (merge {:y (:x arg)} arg) of course
10:41	AWizzArd	But really, if this is just for such a small thing such as your f, then I suggest to overload f.
10:50	Mec	isnt there some function like append that lets you put 2 lists together
10:51	dliebke	,(conj {:a 1} {:b 2})
10:51	clojurebot	{:b 2, :a 1}
10:51	Mec	ah concat
11:09	hiredman	clojurebot: destructuring
11:09	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#let
11:12	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys [a b c] :or {c 10}}] [a b c]) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
11:12	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
11:12	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys [a b c] :or {c 10}}] [a b c]) {:a 1 :b 2})
11:12	clojurebot	[1 2 10]
11:19	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people is 162
11:19	clojurebot	Ok.
11:26	danlarkin	AWizzArd: gasp!
11:26	AWizzArd	hmm?
11:41	danlarkin	AWizzArd: you interfered with the max people count
11:41	AWizzArd	I resetted it to the last known entry.
11:41	AWizzArd	It forgot some information.
11:44	hiredman	the machine crashed, and somehow the file was emptied, and I did not notice till the empty file copied over the backup
11:45	Mec	is there some way to (apply f list val)
11:46	AWizzArd	yes: (apply f list val)
11:46	hiredman	what do you want that to do?
11:46	Mec	(apply f '(1 2 3) 4) -> (f 1 2 3 4)
11:46	hiredman	ah
11:46	AWizzArd	is val a list/vector?
11:46	AWizzArd	do (list val)
11:46	AWizzArd	or [val]
11:46	AWizzArd	(apply + [1 2 3] [4])
11:46	AWizzArd	,(apply + [1 2 3] [4])
11:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazilyPersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
11:47	AWizzArd	great
11:47	Mec	,(apply list '(1 2 3) [5])
11:47	clojurebot	((1 2 3) 5)
11:47	AWizzArd	,(apply + 1 2 3 [4])
11:47	clojurebot	10
11:48	hiredman	,(apply (comp (partial apply conj) reverse list) [1 2 3] 4)
11:48	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
11:48	hiredman	hmmm
11:48	hiredman	,(apply (comp (partial apply conj) list) [1 2 3] 4)
11:48	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
11:48	hiredman	ah
11:48	hiredman	,((comp (partial apply conj) list) [1 2 3] 4)
11:48	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
11:49	Mec	,(apply + (concat '(1 2 3) [4])))
11:49	clojurebot	10
11:49	hiredman	hmmm
11:50	Mec	all ugly :x
11:50	hiredman	,(conj [1 2 3] 4)
11:50	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
11:50	hiredman	,(apply + (conj [1 2 3] 4))
11:50	clojurebot	10
11:51	Mec	that only works if it's a vector, a list gets prepended
11:51	AWizzArd	of course
11:51	dnolen	is the Clojure equivalent of the atom predicate in Common Lisp (not (seq? x)) ?
11:52	Chousuke	hmm
11:52	replaca	Chouser: The ;,;;,;;; convention is not tied to emacs but is traditional predating even common lisp. Emacs "encourages" it, though, by auto-indenting comments based on the number of semicolons
11:52	Chousuke	,(not (seq? [1 2 3]))
11:52	clojurebot	true
11:52	Chousuke	so not quite :/
11:53	Chousuke	,(not (coll? [1 2 3]))
11:53	clojurebot	false
11:53	Chouser	(not (coll? x)) is closer
11:53	Chouser	yeah
11:53	Chouser	replaca: ah, thanks.
11:55	dnolen	Chouser: thx
11:56	dnolen	what would be a good name for such a function since Clojure has it's own idea of atom?
11:58	hiredman	not-a-seq?
11:58	hiredman	not-a-coll?
11:58	hiredman	(def not-a-coll? (comp not coll?))
11:59	dnolen	that's short and sweet like (atom x) :), I've been converting snippets of Common Lisp in my exploration of Clojure.
12:01	AWizzArd	in CL: (atom (vector 1 2 3)) ==> T
12:02	dnolen	interesting so (not (seq? x)) is better AWizzArd?
12:02	AWizzArd	the HyperSpec defines: (defparameter x (make-instance 'interface-1))
12:02	AWizzArd	(defparameter dp (slot-value x 'dis-pai))
12:02	AWizzArd	oops
12:03	AWizzArd	atom n. any object that is not a cons.
12:03	AWizzArd	this is the right thing :)
12:04	AWizzArd	So, the closest thing would indeed be (not (seq? x))
12:04	hiredman	~hyperspec is not applicable
12:04	clojurebot	In Ordnung
12:04	Chousuke	hmm
12:05	AWizzArd	hiredman: that makes not too much sense. Of course Clojure is different, but it was designed with (Common Lisp) in mind and took huge amounts of the experience of it.
12:05	hiredman	~what does the hyperspec say about clojure's vectors?
12:05	clojurebot	hyperspec is not applicable
12:05	AWizzArd	I think it makes sense to keep some of the vocabulary that is used since a few decades.
12:05	hiredman	~what does the hyperspec say about java objects?
12:05	clojurebot	hyperspec is not applicable
12:06	hiredman	anyway
12:06	Chousuke	AWizzArd: the CL meaning of atom is not very useful in a Clojure context :)
12:07	hiredman	clojure has no cons cells, so it's all atoms
12:07	dnolen	Chousuke: it is if your porting CL, I think it does, macros produce seqs for example
12:07	dnolen	checking for not-seq? is useful
12:08	Chouser	I rarely use coll? and even more rarely (not (coll? x)), but both a far more common than seq? or (not (seq? x))
12:08	Chousuke	dnolen: I was talking about the "not a cons" definition of atom
12:08	hiredman	dnolen: there is nothing stopping a macro from return something that is not a seq
12:08	AWizzArd	Chousuke: right, I agree. One could still argue that the verb "consing" still makes sense.
12:09	Chousuke	Chouser: the more common form of (seq?) is probably (if (seq foo))
12:09	Chousuke	AWizzArd: well, yeah. but cons is not that common in clojure :)
12:09	dnolen	hiredman: syntax backquote returns seqs, that's probably the most common form for macroexpansion.
12:09	AWizzArd	Chousuke: if the goal is to get the close to the original behaviour then (atom? some-vector) should return true.
12:09	hiredman	dnolen: sure, but:there is nothing stopping a macro from return something that is not a seq
12:09	Chousuke	AWizzArd: though perhaps full laziness will make it more common.
12:10	AWizzArd	what do you mean?
12:10	dnolen	hiredman: and then that's OK ;)
12:10	hiredman	~def future-call
12:10	Chousuke	AWizzArd: conj is more common that cons :)
12:10	Chousuke	than*
12:10	Chouser	Chousuke: right, but of course 'seq' is not 'seq?'
12:10	hiredman	there are plenty of macros that actually return a java object
12:10	AWizzArd	yes, I mean with this full lazyness thing
12:10	Chousuke	AWizzArd: clojure.org/lazy
12:10	Chousuke	~laziness
12:10	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
12:11	Chousuke	hmm
12:11	Chousuke	~lazy
12:11	clojurebot	lazy is hard
12:11	Chousuke	:(
12:11	Chousuke	As I understand it, with the fully lazy stuff, lazy-cons will get replaced by cons and lazy-seq
12:12	Chousuke	or has been replaced.
12:12	Chousuke	:P
12:12	Chousuke	depending on your view.
12:12	hiredman	will?
12:12	hiredman	it's already happened
12:12	Chousuke	yeah, but not in a release :/
12:12	Chousuke	unless there was a new one I missed.
12:13	cgrand	rhickey: just found a bug in my patch to proxy, line 170 should read "(if (or (considered sig)" and not "(if (or (considered mk)"
12:16	AWizzArd	I think lazy-cons is not in svn anymore?
12:19	hiredman	,'lazy-cons
12:19	clojurebot	lazy-cons
12:19	hiredman	,`lazy-cons
12:19	clojurebot	sandbox/lazy-cons
12:19	hiredman	sure ain't
12:24	AWizzArd	,(/ 1M 3)
12:24	clojurebot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Non-terminating decimal expansion; no exact representable decimal result.
12:35	AWizzArd	,(.divide 1M 3M 10 BigDecimal/ROUND_CEILING)
12:35	clojurebot	0.3333333334M
12:48	slashus2	,(doc with-precision)
12:48	clojurebot	"([precision & exprs]); Sets the precision and rounding mode to be used for BigDecimal operations. Usage: (with-precision 10 (/ 1M 3)) or: (with-precision 10 :rounding HALF_DOWN (/ 1M 3)) The rounding mode is one of CEILING, FLOOR, HALF_UP, HALF_DOWN, HALF_EVEN, UP, DOWN and UNNECESSARY; it defaults to HALF_UP."
12:48	slashus2	,(with-precision 10 (/ 1M 3))
12:48	clojurebot	0.3333333333M
12:51	slashus2	I am getting this strange error in my repl (with-precision 10 (/ 1M 3)) java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/core$binding__3596$var_ize__3598 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:32)
12:53	gnuvince	if I find Clojure being significantly slower than Java (factor of b
12:53	gnuvince	(factor of 8), and that I know I don't have reflexion calls, where else would be a good place to look for?
12:57	whidden	gnuvince: are you doing a lot of mathematical operations?
13:00	gnuvince	whidden: not a lot, no.
13:01	gnuvince	whidden: my code: http://bitbucket.org/gnuvince/clj-starcraft/src/
13:03	keithb	gnuvince: VisualVM might be helpful.
13:03	whidden	gnuvince: have you profiled the code with a profiler?
13:03	gnuvince	culprit(s) will probably be un src/starcraft/replay/unpack.clj and parser.clj
13:04	keithb	gnuvince: It's a free profiler for Java.
13:04	gnuvince	whidden: I ran with -Xprof
13:04	gnuvince	Tells me about the functions I expected to see
13:04	gnuvince	I started -Xrunhprof:cpu=times
13:04	gnuvince	But that takes forever to run, so I won't be able to give you any numbers for at least 15 minutes
13:08	keithb	gnuvince: In this code: (apply str (take-while #(not= % \u0000) bytes)))), is it a very large number of bytes? If so, does str do string concatenation or does it use a StringBuffer or such? The former could result in a huge number of objects, and possibly take much longer.
13:08	whidden	gnuvinced: i'd second the suggestion to use VisualVM - I think that would help to sort through the numbers
13:09	gnuvince	No GUI here though
13:09	gnuvince	I'll need to try it at home.
13:09	hiredman	~def str
13:10	gnuvince	keithb: never more than 32 bytes. However, (apply str) is the "normal way" to concatenate strings and it's pretty efficient (uses a StringBuilder internally and by using apply, uses only one instead of n if reduce was used)
13:12	whidden	gnuvince: I've found that doing speculation refactoring without had profile data is mostly useless. It's been my experience that the places you spend a lot of time are places you think safe/cold.
13:12	keithb	gnuvince: Thanks.
13:13	gnuvince	whidden: my experience too: I dramatically improved performance after I found that reflexion was taking a huge amount of time
13:14	gnuvince	But now, I am not sure where to look except maybe try and make the code "lower level"
13:14	whidden	gnuvince: My quick cursorary glance, with my somewhat novice Clojure eyes, didn't see any egregious erors.
13:14	gnuvince	-Xrunhprof still running...
13:16	Chouser	after reflection the next most common slow spots are boxing and unboxing in tight loops
13:16	Chouser	I haven't looked at your code, though, so I can't say it applies in this case.
13:17	gnuvince	How expensive is destructuring versus extracting elements manually? I'd say exactly the same?
13:19	Chouser	you can look at the macroexpanded code -- generally has calls to nth for each arg
13:19	hiredman	I recall someone mentioning it has a slow down
13:19	hiredman	but that was many months ago
13:20	danlarkin	it was a little slower in my experience
13:20	danlarkin	but that was over thousands of function calls
13:21	Raynes	Mec: .setVisible
13:21	danlarkin	so maybe don't use it in a tight loop, but otherwise it's unnoticeable
13:21	Raynes	I know, delayed response. Just woke up.
13:24	Raynes	On a brighter note, I know how to spell 'visible' now.
13:26	pjstadig	so i have agents working with TC
13:27	pjstadig	the next thing is clojure.lang.Atom
13:27	hiredman	Nice
13:27	Chouser	pjstadig: each 'send' may go off to a different host?
13:29	hiredman	that would be interesting
13:29	pjstadig	hehe
13:29	pjstadig	good question
13:29	pjstadig	the agent has a queue
13:30	pjstadig	so i would guess that the first VM to pop the queue would do the work
13:30	pjstadig	there would obviously be one thread pool per VM, since threads are a non portable object
13:31	pjstadig	i've only gotten them to work preliminarily
13:31	Chouser	ok
13:31	pjstadig	i can (send a + 1) in one vm
13:31	pjstadig	and see @a => 2 in the other
13:32	danlarkin	pjstadig: I'm really excited about this
13:32	pjstadig	i had to basically replace the AtomicReference uses to get them to work
13:34	pjstadig	i had to add some synchronized blocks, so i'm not sure that I haven't changed some semantics
13:34	pjstadig	i'm just trying to get it working first, then to test and fix
13:34	pjstadig	danlarkin: me too
13:35	pjstadig	does anyone have some Java concurrency foo?
13:35	pjstadig	i need to rewrite Atom to not use a java.util.concurrent.AtomicReference
13:36	hiredman	sounds scary
13:36	pjstadig	I'm guessing I can use a wait with a very small timeout?
13:36	hiredman	~jdoc java.util.concurrent.AtomicReference
13:36	pjstadig	then kick back if the thread didn't get it's job done
13:36	hiredman	:(
13:36	hiredman	404
13:36	pjstadig	404 FAIL
13:36	pjstadig	er
13:37	pjstadig	maybe i had the class name wronge
13:37	hiredman	nah
13:37	pjstadig	~jdoc java.util.concurrent.atomic.AtomicReference
13:37	hiredman	it ah
13:38	hiredman	~I forgive you
13:38	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:38	danlarkin	~clojurebot couldn't find the right javadoc URL so hiredman got mad and then suddenly...
13:38	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
13:39	danlarkin	Nooooo
13:39	pjstadig	hehe
13:39	hiredman	:(
13:41	pjstadig	actually i guess i could just use a synchronized block to simulate compareAndSet
13:51	gnuvince	and -Xrunhprof is still running
13:57	rhickey	pjstadig: you could just use synchronized - the reason atoms don't is that you can deadlock on nested swap!s
13:59	blbrown_lt	gnuvince, what version of the jdk are you running. I had issues getting runhprof to work with jdk5. Just a fyi
14:01	gnuvince	blbrown_lt: sun-jvm-6 from Ubuntu Hardy IIRC
14:01	gnuvince	java version "1.6.0_07"
14:02	blbrown_lt	OK, that should work fine. With 'hat' for example
14:02	gnuvince	hat?
14:02	blbrown_lt	if you run Xrunhprof, you may also want to use the heap analysis tool. to see the results of hprof
14:03	gnuvince	Is that a command line argument?
14:04	blbrown_lt	try jhat
14:06	blbrown_lt	gnuvince, a small blog entry on how I use hprof. search for the term if you dont want to read. http://berlinbrowndev.blogspot.com/2008/12/basic-tools-for-monitoring-garbage.html
14:08	pjstadig	rhickey: so there's no deadlock problem for clojure.lang.Atom?
14:08	rhickey	pjstadig: nope
14:08	rhickey	nor for any other Clojure reference type
14:09	rhickey	I'm working on a mutex reference type, which will avoid deadlock by constraining nesting
14:10	gnuvince	rhickey: hi, how did the UK trip go?
14:10	rhickey	gnuvince: it was awesome
14:10	gnuvince	rhickey: cool! :)
14:12	gnuvince	blbrown_lt: thanks, bookmarked.
14:12	gnuvince	rhickey: I think ILC is next week, isn't it?
14:12	danlarkin	blbrown_lt: same, this is a useful writeup, thanks
14:12	blbrown_lt	sorry I keep bringing this up. does it make any sense to create a clojure based framework that uses springmvc and hibernate. I like the libraries and have used them for several years. And think for the business layer, clojure could help. integrating spring and hibernate. But then again, maybe it is time to completely start from scratch hmm. For example, I also wouldnt mind coming up with a new server pages framework (e.g. not jsp)
14:12	blbrown_lt	. I hate hjsp
14:12	rhickey	gnuvince: yes
14:13	blbrown_lt	danlarkin, no prob. if you have websphere it even makes more sense
14:13	gnuvince	rhickey: good luck there, hope they're not like on cll in real life :)
14:13	danlarkin	blbrown_lt: you can help me develop madison...
14:14	rhickey	gnuvince: I spoke to Boston Lisp in the fall and they were a great audience, I expect the same, plus some more Clojure folks too
14:14	blbrown_lt	danlarkin, what is madison
14:14	pjstadig	~clabango
14:14	clojurebot	http://www.clabango.com/
14:14	blbrown_lt	plus, I am kind of too headstrong to work with others
14:15	danlarkin	blbrown_lt: http://github.com/danlarkin/madison/tree/master
14:16	pjstadig	sweet!
14:16	blbrown_lt	danlarkin, I am assuming it is a web framework
14:16	danlarkin	blbrown_lt: eahup it is
14:17	danlarkin	yet another unnecessary web framework
14:18	pjstadig	Yauwf
14:20	hiredman	clojurebot: Yawfie?
14:20	clojurebot	Yawfie is danlarkin's port of django to clojure
14:21	hiredman	:(
14:21	hiredman	clojurebot: forget Yawfie
14:21	clojurebot	I forgot Yawfie
14:22	hiredman	clojurebot: madison?
14:22	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:22	hiredman	clojurebot: madison is http://github.com/danlarkin/madison/tree/master
14:22	clojurebot	Roger.
14:24	Chouser	rhickey: an odd thing about this is that I have much more of Clojure available in the compiler now than exists at the top of core.clj
14:25	Chouser	it's be easier to make fn a 'special form' that expands to an instance form internally and analyzes that, than to try to write a fn macro at the top of core.clj
14:25	Chouser	s/it's/it would/
14:28	kefka`	In Clojure, can purely functional calculations be assumed to be properly parallelized?
14:29	blbrown_lt	danlarkin, I wouldn't say it is unncessary. There are still things broken with most j2ee web frameworks. And there aren't that many popular ones or that are different.
14:29	danlarkin	kefka: no...
14:29	blbrown_lt	danlarkin, do you use any third party library. For example, in my approach, I want to use a couple of common existing frameworks
14:30	danlarkin	blbrown_lt: well it's definitely nowhere near complete yet, but no I'm not using like Hibernate or anything
14:30	danlarkin	I am using a few clojure libraries though
14:31	kefka	danlarkin: Ok, so in order to ensure parallelism, should I be spwaning threads or using agents?
14:32	danlarkin	kefka: there're a few ways... agents, futures, pmap...
14:32	Chouser	clojure.parallel
14:33	danlarkin	pvalues
14:34	netytan	Good day ladies and gentlemen - could someone comment on the implementation of multimethods in Clojure. My contention is that they're implemented in the same way as CLs or Dylans generic functions. Is this factual?
14:35	netytan	More importantly, do they have the same semantics.
14:35	hiredman	who are you contending with?
14:36	cmvkk_	for example, in clojure's multimethods you can define your own dispatch function, where in CL it just dispatches on type.
14:37	kefka	Where are futures discussed? Also, if I'm making a function call (f X Y Z) and want the evaluations of X, Y, Z to be done in parallel, what's the idiomatic/correct way of doing so?
14:38	netytan	hiredman: I'm engaged in a discussion with a friend and I don't like to lie.
14:38	hiredman	,(doc pvalues)
14:38	clojurebot	"([& exprs]); Returns a lazy sequence of the values of the exprs, which are evaluated in parallel"
14:38	danlarkin	(apply f (pvalues X Y Z))
14:38	netytan	cmvkk_: I'm sure that you can waggle it. In any case don't let the CL guys year you say that CL can't do something :).
14:39	cmvkk_	heh
14:40	keithb	I know that proxy creates an instance of a subclass of a Java class, but can I create a subclass in Clojure, for the purpose of creating multiple instances of that subclass?
14:40	Mec	anyone know of a fast trick to add the digits of a number together?
14:40	cmvkk_	keithb, maybe using gen-class
14:40	keithb	(doc gen-class)
14:40	clojurebot	When compiling, generates compiled bytecode for a class with the given package-qualified :name (which, as all names in these parameters, can be a string or symbol), and writes the .class file to the compile-path directory. When not compiling, does nothing. The gen-class construct contains no implementation, as the implementation will be dynamically sought by the generated class in functions in an implementing Clojure na
14:40	p_l	cmvkk_: AFAIK you can change the way multimethods are dispatched with MOP :D
14:41	keithb	cmvkk_: Thanks.
14:41	kefka	embarrassed on pvalues; should have looked that up before asking. Sorry.
14:42	hiredman	keithb: I believe proxy makes one subclass per class (possibly class/interface combination?) and then after that just makes instances of that one subclass
14:42	kefka	,(doc future)
14:42	Chouser	keithb: a class created by proxy is created at compile time and reused each time proxy is called for the same set of parent classes.
14:42	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block."
14:42	danlarkin	kefka: don't worry about it, that's what we're here for :)
14:43	Chouser	maybe pvalues could be implemented on a seq of futures now, instead of via pmap.
14:44	hiredman	pmap is a seq of futures
14:44	kefka	I'm about to update to current version and pull clojure-contrib for something almost in production... anything I should be worried about?
14:45	Chouser	hiredman: oh. indeed it is. thanks. :-)
14:45	hiredman	uh, have you crossed the lazy barrier already?
14:45	kefka	I'm about to cross it.
14:45	kefka	,(doc rest)
14:45	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a possibly empty seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument."
14:45	hiredman	it looks like pvalues uses map, not pmap
14:45	keithb	Chouser: Sorry, I may have asked you this before, but in the code at http://gist.github.com/80000, if I call it multiple times with different behavior arguments, the values returned will all be instances of the same class?
14:45	kefka	,(doc next)
14:45	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil."
14:45	kefka	,(seq nil)
14:45	clojurebot	nil
14:46	kefka	,(next [1])
14:46	clojurebot	nil
14:46	kefka	,(rest [1])
14:46	clojurebot	()
14:46	kefka	I see that change. It used to be that (rest [1]) was nil and thus logically false.
14:46	Chouser	keithb: yes
14:47	Chouser	keithb: try a couple and compare their class names.
14:47	Mec	is that just to kind of force people to use next?
14:47	kefka	So the behavior of 'rest has changed? Any other differences?
14:47	triddell	For you current (or future ;) Ubuntu/Emacs uses out there I've updated my tutorial: http://riddell.us/tutorial/slime_swank/slime_swank.html
14:47	hiredman	keithb: have you read the lazy page on clojure.org?
14:48	triddell	I broke it into three pieces now. One for basic clojure, one for emacs and one for slime/swank.
14:48	hiredman	keithb: http://clojure.org/lazy
14:49	pjstadig	cool
14:49	marklar	triddell: thanks, I used that to get setup the first time :)
14:49	triddell	I plan to add some tutorials on git/egg and maybe muse and android in the future
14:49	Mec	any thoughts on combining :while and :when in a for?
14:49	keithb	hiredman: No, but I will. ;)
14:49	Chouser	Mec: go for it
14:49	pjstadig	triddell: any thoughts about using M-x clojure-install to set everything up?
14:50	hiredman	it has a section on "porting"
14:50	triddell	marklar: your welcome... hope it helped... got a bit out of date
14:50	Mec	Chouser: lol, i mean is it possible, i dont think im up to tackling that yet
14:50	Chouser	Mec: there has been a subtle change to the sematics when you have both on the same loop-part
14:50	marklar	triddell: it definitely helped, thanks
14:51	Chouser	Mec: so make sure you know if you're using a pre-1320 version or not
14:52	Mec	hmm is there a function that returns the version
14:52	hiredman	nope
14:52	hiredman	:(
14:52	danlarkin	Mec: frequently requested, but no
14:52	Mec	let me see if i can find it
14:52	keithb	hiredman: What is the connection between proxy and lazy? I read the page (skimmed really, a lot was over my head for now), but didn't understand how it applies to my problem.
14:52	triddell	pjstadig: saw that once... have to look a bit more... since the process isn't to bad I think a developer using something like clojure in emacs can benefit from how the pieces work together... I would like to reference a script which would keep this particular setup updated... and maybe I could reference M-x clojure install in the future
14:53	keithb	pjstadig: Paul, is that you? :)
14:53	hiredman	keithb: oh, uh, I meant kefka
14:53	hiredman	sorry
14:53	keithb	Oh, ok.
14:53	Mec	does it say anywhere in the source code what the version is?
14:53	Chouser	Mec: depends on how you got clojure. downloaded a .jar? git? svn?
14:53	hiredman	clojurebot: appologize for me!
14:53	clojurebot	for is not used often enough
14:53	Mec	clojurebox
14:53	bitbckt	lol
14:54	hiredman	clojurebot: apologize for me!
14:54	clojurebot	mea culpa!
14:54	pjstadig	triddell: it seems like an easy way to get things going, plus M-x clojure-update can help keep you up to date, but you're probably right. it's good to get to know how the tools work together.
14:54	pjstadig	keithb: yeah :)
14:56	triddell	pjstadig: I will look into that... is that available on a fork of clojure-mode?
14:56	triddell	pjstadig: or swank-clojure
14:56	Mec	lookjs like i have 1235
14:58	hiredman	r1230
14:58	Chouser	Mec: ok. you can still use :when and :while on the same loop part, but the order in which you give them won't matter
14:58	Chouser	r1320
14:59	hiredman	whoops
14:59	Chouser	:-)
14:59	Mec	ok
14:59	Chouser	I'm trying to remember ... I thnk the :while is checked first. If that's true, then it checks the :when
14:59	Mec	that's how i'd expect
15:00	Chouser	if the :when and :while are on different loop parts, then they're checked in the order you give them.
15:00	Mec	while is for the whole loop, when is for individual values
15:00	Chouser	in r1320 and on, they're always checked in the order you give them.
15:01	gnuvince	Holy schmoly, -Xrunhprof has been running for nearly 2 hours now
15:01	Mec	from looking at the code it seemed they where in a cond and only one would work
15:02	Chouser	Mec: oh!
15:02	Chouser	Mec: no, you're right. :-(
15:02	Mec	well poo
15:02	Chouser	sorry, I'm forgetting. I think they both worked on doseq
15:03	Mec	hmm, best way to filter out nil then?
15:04	Chouser	hm
15:04	Mec	(filter (compliment nil?) list) i guess
15:04	hiredman	(filter identity ...) or (remove nil ...)
15:04	Chouser	,(for [i [1 3 5 7 8 9 10] :while (odd? i) :when (> i 3)] i)
15:04	clojurebot	(5 7)
15:04	Chouser	does that not work for you?
15:05	Mec	remove says it returns when pred is false, does that mean it will drop it will drop all but nil?
15:05	Mec	oh nvm
15:05	Mec	didnt parse that correctly
15:06	hiredman	uh, that remove call maybe wrong
15:06	hiredman	I use (filter identity ...)
15:06	Chouser	Mec: did you try the (for ...) example I just posted?
15:06	hiredman	so I dunno how remove works
15:06	pjstadig	triddell: its in clojure-mode
15:06	gnuvince	-Xrunhprof has been running for 2 hours now; is there a problem?
15:06	pjstadig	and i think it's in the master branch
15:06	Mec	it gives me the same result as clojurebot
15:07	Chouser	Mec: great -- looks like you can combine them then.
15:07	Mec	weird but yay
15:08	Chouser	but as I said, they'll always go in that order.
15:08	Chouser	,(for [i [1 nil 3 5 nil 7 8 9 10] :when i :while (odd? i)] i)
15:08	clojurebot	(1 3 5 7)
15:08	Chouser	in your version, that probably throws a NPE
15:09	Mec	shouldnt it stop on 8?
15:09	Mec	ya nill pointer
15:09	Mec	err it does
15:09	Mec	wow im just out of it right now
15:11	kefka	,(doc clojure/contrib/fcase)
15:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure/contrib/fcase in this context
15:11	kefka	,(doc clojure.contrib/fcase)
15:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib/fcase in this context
15:11	kefka	,(doc clojure.contrib.fcase)
15:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib.fcase in this context
15:12	danlarkin	kefka: you know, you can call doc from your local command line too :)
15:12	Mec	lol
15:12	hiredman	clojurebot also responds to privmsgs
15:12	pjstadig	clojurebot can also be PM'ed
15:13	kefka	danlarkin: I know, but I wanted to know if I had clojure-contrib properly installed.
15:13	kefka	It wasn't working at my local command line. I wanted to see if it works here.
15:13	hiredman	you need to (require 'clojure.contrib.fcase) first
15:14	eevar_	best way to read all contents from a java.io.Reader into a string?
15:14	kefka	hiredman: Ah. Cool. I assume the same's true of clojure.parallel?
15:15	hiredman	and most namespaces don't have docstrings
15:15	hiredman	and clojurebot's doc lookup may not work with namespaces that do
15:17	hiredman	https://twitter.com/clojurebot/status/1337623633
15:17	hiredman	I love how the eyes kind of look up towards the tweet
15:19	kefka	When I require 'clojure.parallel, I get a weird error message
15:19	kefka	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: jsr166y.forkjoin.ParallelArray (parallel.clj:0)
15:19	hiredman	correct
15:20	hiredman	the location of some classes has changed in jsr166y have changed
15:20	kefka	Do I need to require something else before clojure.parallel?
15:20	hiredman	and clojure.parallel has not been updated
15:20	kefka	What is jsr166y?
15:20	hiredman	http://paste.lisp.org/display/77047
15:20	hiredman	oh
15:21	hiredman	Well
15:21	hiredman	you need the jsr166y.jar
15:21	pjstadig	rhickey: i figured out the random NPEs i was getting from PersistentHashMap$BitmapIndexedNode
15:21	pjstadig	not a bug in PHM, but TC had a problem with calling clone() on an array
15:22	pjstadig	that's done several places in the persistent structures
15:22	hiredman	kefka: see http://clojure.org/other_libraries
15:22	pjstadig	i changed them to new Object[_]; System.arraycopy()
15:23	pjstadig	is there an advantage to using clone() instead of creating and copying?
15:26	Chouser	anyone here using cl-format?
15:27	Lau_of_DK	Not since I left cl...
15:27	Chouser	no, I mean cl-format for Clojure.
15:27	Lau_of_DK	oh :) no
15:27	Chouser	http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/cl-format/tree/master
15:27	pjstadig	wise guy
15:28	Lau_of_DK	Is that based on the pprint you did Chris ?
15:28	Chouser	no
15:28	gnuvince	~seen blbrown_lt
15:28	clojurebot	blbrown_lt was last seen in #clojure, 58 minutes ago saying: danlarkin, do you use any third party library. For example, in my approach, I want to use a couple of common existing frameworks
15:28	Chouser	I'm trying to use it, but so far it's too smart for me.
15:28	blbrown_lt	gnuvince, yea
15:29	Lau_of_DK	Hmm, that sounds alarming :)
15:29	gnuvince	blbrown_lt: is the output of -Xrunhprof:cpu=times reliable?
15:29	Chouser	the compiled .jar fails, the git clone requires that it be compiled, and I can't figure out how to compile the git clone.
15:30	gnuvince	Cause the numbers are... weird
15:30	blbrown_lt	gnuvince, I would hope so, but I normally haven't used that statistic. Are you running on a decent machine
15:31	gnuvince	blbrown_lt: yeah
15:31	lisppaste8	gnuvince pasted "Profile output (top 20 only)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77121
15:32	kefka	hiredman: so the change I need to make to use clojure.parallel is in the paste you sent me, and that's a change to parallel.clj?
15:32	pjstadig	starcraft.replay.parse/parse-buffer and starcraft.replay.parse/read-field-aux look like the winners
15:33	gnuvince	Yeah
15:33	gnuvince	I'm a bit confused
15:33	gnuvince	why are the first two methods taking so long?
15:33	gnuvince	Especially when they're called only 9 times
15:34	blbrown_lt	gnuvince, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/375439/java-hprof-question I havent used that aspect of the profiling so I would be pretending if I knew. But, I would think it makes sense
15:34	blbrown_lt	ask rhickey maybe he could run hprof also
15:34	hiredman	kefka: I believe so, I have not used it
15:35	kefka	Now I get "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: extra166y.ParallelArray (parallel.clj:0)"
15:36	kefka	Never mind. Embarrassing classpath mistake.
15:36	pjstadig	gnuvince: well i don't know, but maybe it was a fluke
15:37	pjstadig	maybe that's why it took so long, something went screwy?
15:39	blbrown_lt	gnuvince, this may help also. http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/HPROF.html
15:39	gnuvince	pjstadig: I don't think it was a fluke, the performance of the site has been pretty much the same for a while now.
15:39	Lau_of_DK	Compojure guys! If I want to attach an onchange event to a drop-down, how do I do that ?
15:39	gnuvince	(I just happened to test a Java version this morning, and it ran about 8x faster)
15:40	kefka	Ok. Still I'm getting the same error.
15:43	kefka	The error being "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: extra166y.ParallelArray (parallel.clj:0)
15:43	kefka	when I try to require clojure.parallel
15:44	hiredman	do you have all the right jars?
15:45	hiredman	http://gee.cs.oswego.edu/dl/concurrency-interest/
15:45	kefka	I have jsr166y.jar, clojure.jar, and clojure-contrib.jar in my classpath
15:46	hiredman	there is also a extra166y.jar
15:46	kefka	Ok. It looks like I need extra166y.jar and possibly others. Thanks.
15:48	kefka	hiredman: it's working now. Thanks.
15:51	hoeck	Chouser: just got cl-format working here, it's nice
15:52	Chouser	hoeck: you're using this jar, or something else? http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/cl-format/raw/master/release/cl-format.jar
15:52	hoeck	Chouser: I had to set the clojure-jar property in the build.xml manually and then just used ant to build the jar
15:53	hoeck	Chouser: I cloned the repository and built my own jar
15:54	Chouser	ok, that's what I've done too.
15:54	Chouser	I had a typo in my clojure-jar property that stumped me for a while.
15:54	Chouser	but now it builds, and I get a cl-format.jar
15:55	Chouser	but when I put that in my classpath, I get:
15:55	Chouser	user=> (use 'com.infolace.format)
15:55	Chouser	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/RT (format.clj:0)
15:57	Chouser	ok, I just got it to work, by putting cl-format.jar directly in my -cp option, instead of copying it to one of my java.ext.dirs
15:57	Chouser	this I do not like.
15:58	slashus2	Why does pvalues use a syntax quote on fn instead of ' ?
15:58	hoeck	what is a java.ext.dir?
15:59	hiredman	if you figure out why some things don't work well with java.ext.dir it would be interesting to know
15:59	hiredman	hoeck: don't
15:59	hiredman	~add-classpath
15:59	clojurebot	add-classpath is bad, avoid it. I mean it!
15:59	hiredman	~jar directory
15:59	clojurebot	with java6(jdk1.6) CLASSPATH can contain a "" so /jar/dir/ will suck in all the jars in the /jar/dir directory, this also works with swank-clojure-extra-classpaths in emacs, alternatively you can use this shell snippet: find .jars/ -type f -name \*.jar -print0\|xargs -0\|sed "s/ /:/g"
16:00	hiredman	of course that will all confuse people
16:00	hiredman	who will try and use * like shell expansion
16:00	hoeck	but adding a jar after starting the jvm to a * classpath doesn't seem to work
16:00	hiredman	sigh
16:00	hiredman	hoeck: the solution is "do not use add-classpath"
16:01	Chouser	ok, pprint working. I'll have to look at java.ext.dirs later. Thanks all.
16:01	hoeck	I know
16:01	hiredman	add-classpath is unreliable
16:01	cemerick	rhickey: I'm sure you get notifications and such, but I wanted to raise this regression directly: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=98
16:01	hiredman	so don't rely on it
16:02	cemerick	I would go spelunking in the gen-class stuff, but I'm completely tied up.
16:02	kotarak	isn't java.ext.dirs also the voodoo thing, one shouldn't use?
16:02	hiredman	kotarak: that has been my experience
16:02	hiredman	sometimes it doesn't work
16:03	pjstadig	how can you patch a long running JVM with code changes that may necessitate classpath changes?
16:04	walters	pjstadig: one thing you need to understand is the Permgen
16:04	Chouser	what code changes necessitate classpath changes?
16:04	pjstadig	takes away from the dynamic nature of Clojure, me thinks, if you can't dynamically change the classpath
16:04	kotarak	I don't get, what problems people have with their classpath. I have I directory, where I put all jars I want in there. Together with symlinks to local stuff. A starter script adds all that to the CLASSPATH env var and fires up clojure. I never ever had a single problem with this setup.....
16:04	pjstadig	kotarak: we're talking about changing the classpath after the JVM has booted
16:05	Chouser	kotarak: I'm trying to remember why i moved off of that.
16:05	cemerick	pjstadig: as long as you bootstrap your app with a classloader you control (i.e. not the bootclassloader), then you can do just about anything with the effective classpath.
16:05	kotarak	pjstadig: maybe this is a thing, the jvm doesn't want?
16:05	pjstadig	Chouser: hypothetical, adding a feature to an application that requires a new external jar
16:05	Chouser	pjstadig: unpack the jar into an existing classpath root. It may not be pretty, but it would work
16:06	p_l	wasn't it possible to modify the classpath at runtime?
16:06	cemerick	app servers have been doing stuff like this for years and years
16:12	pjstadig	is that what use-context-classloader is about?
16:15	rhickey	cemerick: try 1330
16:16	Lau_of_DK	Compojure guys! If I want to attach an onchange event to a drop-down, how do I do that ?
16:20	slashus2	Why does pvalues in core.clj use a syntax quote on fn instead of ' ?
16:21	dnolen	Lau_of_DK: not sure how good JS integration is in Compojure, but all you need to do is add an onchange attribute to the element, the string will be a JS fn call.
16:21	pjstadig	~def pvalues
16:22	Lau_of_DK	dnolen, yea I get that - its the compojure syntax/approach for doing so Im missing
16:22	pjstadig	`fn will explicitly resolve to clojure.core/fn unless i'm mistaken
16:23	dnolen	Lua_of_DK: from compojure wiki, [:a {:href "/"} "Home"]]]
16:23	pjstadig	i think it's just to prevent picking up an fn frome somewhere else
16:23	dnolen	so it looks like attributes are just maps.
16:23	slashus2	pjstadig: I understand.
16:23	dnolen	[:select {:onchange "myJSFn()"}]
16:23	pjstadig	,`fn
16:23	clojurebot	clojure.core/fn
16:24	dnolen	untested guess.
16:24	pjstadig	,'fn
16:24	clojurebot	fn
16:24	slashus2	pjstadig: Using macro expand I see it now.
16:26	Lau_of_DK	dnolen, I get attributes - Im asking specifically about drop-down
16:26	dnolen	Lau_of_DK: that's how you add an onchange event on a drop-down, am I missing something?
16:27	Lau_of_DK	Yea, you are :)
16:27	Lau_of_DK	If you work it out specifically for drop-down let me know, otherwise I'm going forward with my filthy JS solution
16:28	dnolen	Lau_of_DK: haha, I'm assuming you're looking for tighter JS integration?
16:42	cemerick	hrm, can we leave messages with clojurebot?
16:45	hiredman	no
16:46	hiredman	it's in the TODO, if you want to do it
16:46	hiredman	:P
16:46	cemerick	hiredman: :-P ;-)
16:46	danlarkin	next thing you know rich'll sign on and get 200 messages from random dudes
16:46	cemerick	danlarkin: really? I've really enjoyed it in the past.
16:46	hiredman	it would, of course, only give you your messages if you ask for them
16:46	cemerick	Ah, I suppose. Maybe only sane people could be added to the messaging perm list or something. shrug
16:47	pjstadig	there's always e-mail :-p
16:47	danlarkin	yeah who knows, I'm frequently wrong about this type of thing, so..
16:47	cemerick	email is SO last century, man!
16:48	pjstadig	maybe someone should write a spam filter for the clojurebot message queue
16:48	pjstadig	using a naive bayes filter
16:48	Chouser	but and a tagging system
16:48	Chouser	and a folders
16:48	Chouser	auto-filters
16:48	pjstadig	and an RSS feed
16:48	Chouser	web-based reader
16:49	Chouser	protocol for fetching and sending messages
16:49	pjstadig	and automatic twittering when someone reads a message that you left for them
16:49	pjstadig	character sets
16:49	pjstadig	mime types
16:49	pjstadig	attachments!
16:49	Chouser	oh, yes, attachments
16:50	pjstadig	maybe you could even leave a clojure message
16:50	hiredman	right now I am writing a data persister using an agent and a watcher, instead of having to write a new method for writing stuff to disk for every module/extension/behavior
16:50	pjstadig	some code that gets executed when someone joins channel
16:50	hiredman	clojurebot does tweet
16:51	pjstadig	hiredman: you writing these down?
16:51	hiredman	pjstadig: I log everything
16:51	pjstadig	this is good stuff :)
16:51	hiredman	after the machine crash and clojurebot lost some memory, I fed a month or so of irclogs through it
16:51	pjstadig	clojurebot: prepare for dictation
16:51	clojurebot	for is not a loop
16:53	pjstadig	clojurebot: for is a loop...in Java
16:53	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:58	danlarkin	I fear the day that clojurebot becomes sentient
17:00	pjstadig	i, for one, welcome our new IRCbot overlords
17:01	hiredman	pjstadig: you just overwrite two factoids
17:01	hiredman	overwrote
17:05	kotarak	clojurebot: for
17:05	clojurebot	for is a loop...in Java
17:05	kotarak	clojurebot: for is also not a loop
17:05	clojurebot	Roger.
17:06	kotarak	clojurebot: for is also not used often enough.
17:06	clojurebot	Roger.
17:08	Chouser	~clojurebot
17:08	clojurebot	clojurebot is like life: you make trade-offs
17:11	hiredman	^- failed tab completion
17:17	hiredman	hmmm
17:23	hiredman	adding this feature (the agent & watcher based persistence store) will also move clojurebot's dictionary out of the global space
17:23	hiredman	which means it will be possible to run multiple clojurebot's at once with different dictionaries
17:29	Mec	does the api somewhere describe how to handle exceptions?
17:29	hiredman	try/catch/finally
17:30	Mec	ah hah, it was hiding on the special forms page
17:33	Mec	any chance of an example? i dont understand the doc
17:34	danlarkin	use it like try/catch in java
17:36	Mec	it looks like it would work just like if/then/else but it takes 2 variable number of args back to back... which doesnt seem right
17:37	Chouser	(try foo bar baz (catch Exception e qux))
17:38	slashus2	,(try (/ 9 0) (catch ArithmeticException e e))
17:38	clojurebot	slashus2: Excuse me?
17:39	slashus2	:-(
17:39	Mec	ah ok
17:43	Mec	i keep getting a clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number but i sware im not :*(
17:46	hiredman	(try do some stuff (catch Exception e (println e)))
17:47	Mec	i think i found the problem
17:47	Mec	tho once you catch an exception how do you gtfo
17:53	stuhood	gtfo? like get the funk out?
17:53	Mec	you betcha
17:53	stuhood	if you catch the function, the return of the (catch) statement is the result of the whole (try)
17:53	stuhood	er, catch the exception
17:54	Mec	(defn gtfo [] (System/exit 0))
17:54	stuhood	heh.
17:55	hiredman	(it isn't a statement, it is an expression)
17:55	blackdog_	what's the latest word on 1.0 ?
17:56	hiredman	~seen rhickey
17:56	clojurebot	rhickey was last seen joining #clojure, 11 minutes ago
17:56	hiredman	I've started ignoring joins and parts in this channel
17:57	tashafa	im lazy... is there a contrib that turn a clojure structer to json?
17:57	tashafa	that turns*
17:57	tashafa	?
17:58	danlarkin	tashafa: that really is _quite_ lazy
17:59	tashafa	hey, its clojure's fault :)
18:00	spacema__	maybe we can get clojurebot integrated with letmegooglethatforyou.com
18:00	tashafa	fine i'll C-x C-f into clojure-contrib
18:01	hiredman	there is a json deal in contrib
18:01	hiredman	and there is another one that is not in contrib
18:01	stuhood	hiredman: re statement/expression: indeed... thanks
18:01	danlarkin	+1 for the latter!
18:02	tashafa	ah json write
18:02	tashafa	just lie json read
18:02	tashafa	like*
18:03	tashafa	hmmm.. .i see what they did there
18:04	tashafa	hiredman: whats up with the other one thats not in contrib?
18:11	hiredman	uh, it's there? it's not in contrib
18:11	hiredman	clojurebot: clojure-json?
18:11	clojurebot	clojure > scheme
18:11	hiredman	hmmm
18:12	hiredman	~google clojure-json
18:12	clojurebot	First, out of 9460 results is:
18:12	clojurebot	danlarkin's clojure-json at master - GitHub
18:12	clojurebot	http://github.com/danlarkin/clojure-json/tree/master
18:12	hiredman	^-
18:12	hiredman	stuhood: wait, didn't you write the one in contrib?
18:15	stuhood	hiredman: no... there are a lot of stuarts in the community, heh
18:16	tashafa	:(
18:16	hiredman	my mistake then
18:16	tashafa	json write doesnt do timestamps correctly
18:16	hiredman	yeah, a lot of stuarts
18:17	hiredman	tashafa: I am sure it just doesn't know how you want it done
18:17	tashafa	... "posted":#<Timestamp 2009-03-08 20:17:49.0>,"type":.....
18:18	stuhood	tashafa: i don't think there is a standard way to do timestamps, so you'll probably have to explicitly convert it to a Long if that is what you wanted
18:18	tashafa	hmmm
18:18	tashafa	thanks
18:19	tashafa	good thing im using clj record i could implement a call back
18:22	hiredman	I seem to recall that one of the json libs used multimethods, so you might be able to hook up your own method for turning a Timestamp object into json
18:24	fanda	hello!
18:25	fanda	function 'empty' is missing on the page http://clojure.org/sequences
18:25	stuhood	ehlo!
18:25	stuhood	fanda: i see empty?
18:25	stuhood	,(empty? '(1 2 3))
18:25	fanda	yes, but there is also 'empty'
18:25	clojurebot	false
18:25	tashafa	thanks hiredman
18:25	fanda	(doc empty)
18:25	clojurebot	Returns an empty collection of the same category as coll, or nil; arglists ([coll])
18:26	fanda	there is 'not-empty' correctly mentioned
18:27	stuhood	but not-empty is the opposite of empty? so that makes sense, right?
18:27	tashafa	how would you pass a java method as a function argument?
18:28	Chousuke	tashafa: wrap it in an anonymous function
18:29	stuhood	tashafa: you can use a lambda: #(.toString "blah")
18:29	Chousuke	or use (memfn javaMethod)
18:29	tashafa	,(map #(.getTime %) [java.util.Date. java.util.Date.])
18:29	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.Date.
18:29	tashafa	,(map #(.getTime %) [java.utils.Date. java.utils.Date.])
18:29	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.utils.Date.
18:30	Chousuke	,(map #(.getTime %) [(Date.) (Date.)]
18:30	clojurebot	EOF while reading
18:30	Chousuke	,(map #(.getTime %) [(Date.) (Date.)])
18:30	clojurebot	(1237242527447 1237242527447)
18:30	tashafa	thanks
18:30	tashafa	brain fart
18:31	fanda	stuhood: I just couldn't find function 'empty' mentioned on the clojure.org... It should be somewhere
18:31	tashafa	cool thanks...
18:32	fanda	stuhood: either sequences or data_structures - then these functions link to API page
18:32	stuhood	fanda: yea... it's on the API page, but the Sequences page only claims "This is a sampling of the primary sequence functions, grouped broadly by their capabilities."
18:32	tashafa	one of my records happend on 1234567890... day, i thought it was some kind of mistake
18:33	fanda	stuhood: my bad then, I always assumed that there should be all of them :-)
18:35	fanda	another thing: what do think about (empty nil) throwing NullPointerException?
18:35	fanda	is this desired behavior?
18:36	stuhood	that makes sense... how can you create a new collection of the same type as nil?
18:36	fanda	doc says that it accepts collection
18:36	fanda	(doc empty)
18:36	clojurebot	Returns an empty collection of the same category as coll, or nil; arglists ([coll])
18:37	danlarkin	tashafa: clojure-json uses multimethods, you can write your own java.util.Date handler
18:37	fanda	that clause "or nil" is questionable :-)
18:37	fanda	i wonder if (empty nil) => nil would be a better alternative
18:38	stuhood	mm, yea... you're right
18:38	fanda	,(empty [1 2])
18:38	clojurebot	[]
18:38	fanda	,(empty (seq [1 2])
18:38	clojurebot	EOF while reading
18:38	fanda	,(empty (seq [1 2]))
18:38	clojurebot	nil
18:38	stuhood	ahh
18:39	Chousuke	,(empty (map inc [1 2]))
18:39	clojurebot	nil
18:39	fanda	yes, there are some nils, but I am not satisfied :-)
18:42	stuhood	i agree that it probably shouldn't throw an exception, and should return nil instead
18:43	fanda	i will post it to the group
18:43	fanda	not sure if rhickey is listening :-)
18:44	Chousuke	hmm
18:44	Chousuke	,(into nil [1 2])
18:44	clojurebot	(2 1)
18:45	hiredman	uh
18:45	Chousuke	funky :)
18:45	hiredman	hwa?
18:45	slashus2	hmm
18:45	Chousuke	,(conj (conj nil 1) 2)
18:45	clojurebot	(2 1)
18:45	Chousuke	that's what into does :)
18:47	fanda	thanks all for the help!!!
18:48	slashus2	Maybe if "to" is nil it should throw an illegal argument exception?
18:49	hiredman	,(doc conj)
18:49	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
18:49	slashus2	For into that is.
18:50	Chousuke	I think into is just a (reduce conj to coll)
18:51	hiredman	if only there was some quick and easy way to read the source for into
18:51	Chousuke	and I guess there will be situations in which you wish into did not throw an exception, if it did :)
18:51	Chousuke	heh
18:51	Chousuke	right.
18:51	Chousuke	~source into
18:52	slashus2	,(into '(1 2) [1 2 3 4 5])
18:52	clojurebot	(5 4 3 2 1 1 2)
18:53	Chousuke	(reduce conj '(1 2) [1 2 3 4 5])
18:53	Chousuke	gah
18:53	Chousuke	,(reduce conj '(1 2) [1 2 3 4 5])
18:53	clojurebot	(5 4 3 2 1 1 2)
18:54	slashus2	Kind of wonder why it isn't implemented with reduce.
18:54	Chousuke	maybe it predates reduce.
18:54	slashus2	reduce is 539
18:54	slashus2	1889 is into
18:54	hiredman	I think the taking nil as () (which is what the into behavior is) is a remnent of when nil == ()
18:54	slashus2	so it doesn't predate it.
18:54	Chousuke	was nil ever equal to ()? :/
18:55	Chouser	I don't think nil was ever () in Clojure.
18:55	slashus2	,(reduce conj nil [1 2 3])
18:55	Chousuke	slashus2: then whoever implemented it just didn't think of using reduce I guess :)
18:55	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
18:55	hiredman	pre-lazy, seqs could not be lazy
18:55	hiredman	er
18:55	hiredman	pre-lazy, seqs could not be empty
18:55	hiredman	instead of getting () you would get nil
18:56	hiredman	so in that sense
18:56	Chousuke	you still can't get a () from a seq I think
18:56	Chouser	but () was never a seq
18:56	Chouser	hm
18:56	Chouser	,(seq? ())
18:56	clojurebot	true
18:56	hiredman	hah!
18:56	hiredman	,(drop 3 '(1 2 3))
18:56	clojurebot	()
18:57	Chousuke	(seq ())
18:57	hiredman	,(class (drop 3 '(1 2 3)))
18:57	Chousuke	,(seq ())
18:57	clojurebot	nil
18:57	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
18:57	Chousuke	hmm
18:57	Chousuke	so what does seq return now? :/
18:57	hiredman	,(doc seq)
18:57	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq on the collection. If the collection is empty, returns nil. (seq nil) returns nil. seq also works on Strings, native Java arrays (of reference types) and any objects that implement Iterable."
18:58	Chousuke	all this laziness has managed to confuse my idea of the terminology
18:59	hiredman	yeah
18:59	slashus2	surprisingly using reduce to implement into is more efficient
19:00	kotarak_	Hmm... I think, the only thing changed, is that rest now returns a collection instead of a seq, no?
19:00	slashus2	than its current implementation.
19:00	hiredman	well
19:00	hiredman	Sequences can now be empty
19:00	hiredman	previously they could not
19:01	slashus2	Do you all get the same performance results?
19:01	kotarak_	Maybe a Sequence is not a seq?
19:02	hiredman	there is no Sequence type
19:02	hiredman	I am just trying to distringuish between nouns and verbs using capital letters
19:02	kotarak_	Maybe a Sequence is the collection of items in a seq.
19:03	hiredman	...
19:03	kotarak_	rest returns a Sequence not a seq.
19:03	hiredman	no
19:03	kotarak_	Maybe Sequence is non-existent.
19:03	kotarak_	and I should go to bed.
19:03	hiredman	clojurebot: rest?
19:03	clojurebot	rest never returns a unicorn
19:03	stuhood	haha
19:03	hiredman	I think that was an rhickey quote
19:04	hiredman	previous to lazy, rest could never return an empty sequence, because empty sequences did not exist
19:05	hiredman	so a lot of functions still treat an empty seq and nil as the same thing
19:05	hiredman	,(into '() [1 2 3])
19:05	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
19:05	hiredman	,(into nil [1 2 3])
19:05	clojurebot	(3 2 1)
19:06	slashus2	,(time (reduce nil (range 10)))
19:06	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
19:06	slashus2	,(time (reduce conj nil (range 10)))
19:06	clojurebot	(9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0)
19:06	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.127 msecs"
19:06	slashus2	,(time (into nil (range 10)))
19:06	clojurebot	(9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0)
19:06	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.125 msecs"
19:08	slashus2	About the same
19:09	fanda	,(time (reduce + (reduce conj nil (range 1000000))))
19:09	clojurebot	499999500000
19:09	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 2121.037 msecs"
19:09	Hun	that is /not/ a valid benchmark. not to the slightest
19:09	fanda	,(time (reduce + (into nil (range 1000000))))
19:09	clojurebot	499999500000
19:09	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1083.92 msecs"
19:10	fanda	very funny - I get different results on clojurebot and on my computer :-)
19:10	slashus2	probably need to run it a few times each.
19:12	slashus2	For reduce I get "Elapsed time: 703.340936 msecs" "Elapsed time: 640.98617 msecs" "Elapsed time: 640.678316 msecs" "Elapsed time: 687.656826 msecs" "Elapsed time: 644.186306 msecs"
19:12	slashus2	For into I get "Elapsed time: 843.761718 msecs" "Elapsed time: 754.135803 msecs" "Elapsed time: 762.740057 msecs" "Elapsed time: 769.567923 msecs" "Elapsed time: 711.6967 msecs"
19:14	fanda	after few runs - reduce conj is faster than into
19:14	fanda	percentage looks similar to yours
19:15	slashus2	I don't see any reason why reduce shouldn't be reused in into.
19:17	fanda	slashus2: post it to the group if you want
19:17	fanda	Rich usually welcomes speed improvements
19:18	Hun	sbcl still beats it by factor 3 on my machine :) (time (reduce #'+ (loop for i below 1000000 collect i)))
19:22	fanda	Hun: I am not sure if that version is equivalent
19:22	fanda	Clojure's version creates list of 0 to 1000000-1 numbers, then uses this list to create a list with the same numbers (only in the opposite order)
19:22	fanda	reduce + is just for printing
19:23	fanda	our test was actually to time list creation
19:23	fanda	reduce conj vs. into
19:24	fanda	,(time (reduce + (range 1000000)))
19:24	clojurebot	499999500000
19:24	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 180.617 msecs"
19:26	Hun	(time (reduce #'+ (reduce #'cons (loop for i below 1000000 collect i) :from-end t :initial-value nil)))
19:26	Hun	fanda: better by factor 2
19:27	Hun	hmm
19:27	Hun	on my machine, reduce #'cons is actually faster than using reverse. something's fishy
19:33	fanda	Hun: ... and we have a winner: it is sbcl :-)
19:34	lpetit	Hello
19:34	Hun	fanda: hmm. the flames in the olden days were more fun :)
19:35	fanda	Hun: flames are boring these days... cooperation is more fun... since when is LISP using Java? since Clojure :-)
19:35	Hun	fanda: very weird. on abcl, both lines (with and without reverse) take the exact same time (about factor 5 worse than clojure)
19:35	Hun	and abcl is also java :)
19:36	fanda	:-)
19:37	fanda	gotta go to bed, take care all!
19:37	Hun	gotta sleep. it's getting late here
19:37	blbrown	abcl is still kind of slow, maybe mostly uses reflection?
19:38	Hun	blbrown: don't know. i can't test it on my production app, because it breaks on one of the libs i use. gotta fix that some time in the future
19:38	Hun	shouldn't need too much reflection there. lots of type hints
19:58	gnuvince_	Hmmm :(
19:58	gnuvince_	Seems I can't get an answer to that profiling question
20:00	slashus2	gnuvince_ I would like to know the answer too.
20:04	gnuvince_	I sure wouldn't mind if I was about 50% slower than the Java version
20:04	slashus2	8 times slower is a little much.
20:05	gnuvince_	Yeah
20:05	slashus2	What is java.lang.Object.wait and java.lang.ref.ReferenceQueue.remove ?
20:05	gnuvince_	That's what I'd love to know
20:06	slashus2	I looked at java.lang.ref in the java api.
20:06	gnuvince_	Especially how a total of 9 calls can take 66% of runtime, but 4 million calls to the AtomicInteger.get takes 1%
20:06	slashus2	a lot of waiting going on?
20:06	Chouser	wait is for waiting on a lock, isn't it?
20:09	gnuvince_	void wait()
20:09	gnuvince_	Causes current thread to wait until another thread invokes the notify() method or the notifyAll() method for this object.
20:12	Chouser	How much time for how many calls to wait?
20:13	Chouser	302283 is in milliseconds I suppose.
20:16	Chouser	I see one direct call to .wait() in the clojure code base
20:16	Chouser	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/trunk/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LockingTransaction.java?r=1308#133
20:16	Chouser	but that looks like 100 msecs per wait, so I don't think that adds up to 302283
20:17	gnuvince_	I wonder if it could be a packaging bug
20:18	gnuvince_	I ran the same code, with the same clojure version with the same replay file here and Object.wait() and ReferenceQueue.remove() don't even appear in the output
20:18	Chouser	huh
20:19	rhickey	gnuvince: what's the problem code?
20:19	gnuvince_	rhickey: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/c416294e5cca477b#
20:20	gnuvince_	I ran a -Xrunhprof profile run at work with Sun's VM as shipped with Ubuntu Hardy Heron and it gave me those numbers.
20:20	gnuvince_	Here at home, with Ibex and a different version of Sun's VM, Object.wait and ReferenceQueue.remove don't even appear in the output.
20:28	slashus2	gnuvince_ Is the performance the same with Ibex?
20:28	slashus2	Ibex's version rather?
20:29	gnuvince_	I'm going to try that now
20:29	gnuvince_	I just finished checking out the other project.
20:34	gnuvince_	Both programs are faster on my home machine
20:34	gnuvince_	However, there's still a speed difference: Java takes 12.68s, Clojure takes ~160s
20:35	slashus2	even worse
20:36	gnuvince_	yah
20:36	slashus2	tried openjdk?
20:36	slashus2	I am sure that will be the same... never mind.
20:37	gnuvince_	I'd rather look at my code and figure out where I went wrong
20:44	danlarkin	gnuvince: if you're really stumped then it's time to start picking apart your code and find the bottleneck
20:45	danlarkin	or refactor your algorithm to be more (or less!) idiomatic
20:46	gnuvince_	danlarkin: well with these new numbers, I see that AtomicInteger.get is called a lot of times for a single file (2M+ times)
20:46	danlarkin	so is that a boxing/unboxing thing?
20:47	gnuvince_	Could be, I've never seen this before, I'll need to play around with the code.
20:47	Raynes	Is there a function or method to parse an int to a double.
20:48	hiredman	(double 1)
20:48	gnuvince_	I could also look into whether using vectors is a wise idea to describe byte fields
20:48	hiredman	,(double 1)
20:48	clojurebot	1.0
20:48	danlarkin	ints are a subset of doubles
20:48	danlarkin	there is no parsing necessary
20:48	Raynes	,(/ 3 5)
20:48	clojurebot	3/5
20:48	Raynes	I need a double. :\
20:48	danlarkin	that's not an int
20:48	hiredman	,(double (/ 3 5))
20:48	clojurebot	0.6
20:49	hiredman	,(class (/ 3 5))
20:49	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Ratio
20:49	Raynes	Er, did I say parse?
20:49	hiredman	Yes
20:49	hiredman	and you said int
20:49	Raynes	I got 10 minutes to finish what I'm doing, I'm just typing random shit.
20:49	danlarkin	AND you said "there"!
20:50	danlarkin	Raynes: please no fowl (ha!) language :(
20:50	Raynes	danlarkin: What is it with you and foul language?
20:51	danlarkin	it's channel semi-policy
20:51	Raynes	Put it in the topic then.
20:51	Raynes	We need a list of rules.
20:52	Raynes	No talking, no fowl language, no using clojurebot ect.
20:52	Raynes	:S
20:52	Raynes	:D*
21:32	durka42	Raynes: you seem to have single-handledly enacted that first rule :p
21:49	Raynes	durka42: Oh shi-
21:58	gnuvince_	hmm?
23:06	Mec	whats the proper format for (System getProperties line.separator)
23:06	Chouser	,(System/getProperty "line.separator")
23:06	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.util.PropertyPermission line.separator read)
23:07	Mec	Chouser: thanks
23:33	arohner	does dosync have a defined return value?
23:35	Chouser	it returns the value of the final form
23:36	Chouser	I'm not sure if that's promised, but I suspect it is. Like 'do'
23:44	gavin___	has anyone had success using repl-utils/add-break-thread! with slime?
23:49	Chouser	gavin___: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/e05cc5a9c1dc8b1
23:50	Chouser	looks a bit mixed
23:51	gavin___	Chouser: I read that and got it sort of going after several mis-starts, but in the end my Swank REPL Thread dies with an InterruptedException
23:52	Chouser	hm.
23:53	gavin___	in swank.core/eval-for-emacs the SIGINT exception thrown by add-break-thread! gets caught and displayed in an sldb buffer, but then the send-to-emacs call that comes a bit after that gets another InterruptedException for some reason
23:53	Chouser	interesting -- I can get some perhaps similar unexplained behavior at a plain repl
23:54	Chouser	If I type Ctrl-C when there's nothing running, the next expression I eval catches a SIGINT
23:54	Chouser	ok, thanks
23:54	Chouser	bleh
23:54	Chouser	I mean, that's not all of it though
23:55	gavin___	hmm, I haven't seen that. Actually in a plain REPL I can't get Ctrl-C to do anything for some reason; I've been sending SIGINT from a separate process for testing
23:55	arohner	is there a java fn for xor, or just the operator?
23:56	Chouser	If I Ctrl-C at a prompt, then eval "55", I get a SIGINT printed
23:56	Chouser	I can then eval several more expressions with no problem.
23:57	Chouser	But the next time I do (Thread/sleep 10) it fails immediately with a java.lang.InterruptedException: sleep interrupted (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
23:57	Chouser	which sounds more like what you're seeing.
23:57	gavin___	I'll check that out. Maybe its just doomed due to all of the scary warnings in the Thread.stop docs