#clojure – 2009-02-24

2009-02-24

00:00	cmvkk	people do that kind of thing all the time. it's not my bag, but if it works for you, why not?
00:00	notallama	i think parens are wonderful creatures.
00:00	jbondeson	it reminds me of the C macro packages that let you write code like it was Fortran
00:01	notallama	has anyone made a python intepreter that requires a whole bunch of parens? that'd be great.
00:01	jbondeson	or people who go from windows to linux and rename everything C D E .. etc
00:02	cmvkk	heh...people do that? i have a partition on my drive mounted to /f, but this is the first time i saw that connection.
00:03	notallama	i went from windows to linux and it ate my boot sector. :/
00:03	jbondeson	people will do things that make no sense in a new environment just to make it seem like they're in familiar territory
00:03	cmvkk	o dpm
00:03	cmvkk	crud
00:03	notallama	i tried again when i got a laptop and it's running well now. having 2 computers is so nice for trying new stuff.
00:04	cmvkk	i don't suppose anyone in here has messed around wtih the javax.sound.sampled package before have they? i am having a problem with it.
00:04	hiredman	the first time I installed linux it ate the boot sector of my dad's work computer
00:05	hiredman	(I was trying to install it and have it boot off a zip disk)
00:05	notallama	i had ubuntu running from a thumb drive when it happened. it was working for a couple days first.
00:13	hiredman	,(pl inc $ inc $ inc 0)
00:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: pl in this context
00:15	hiredman	,(pl inc $ inc $ inc 0)
00:15	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: LazySeq used in 'if'
00:20	hiredman	that is most unfortunate
00:21	hiredman	I am pretty sure that is false positive too
00:23	danlarkin	,(macroexpand-1 '(pl inc $ inc $ inc 0))
00:23	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: LazySeq used in 'if'
00:23	danlarkin	grrrrumble
00:26	jbondeson	hmmm, there's got to be a better way than (into {} (map vec (partition 2 '(:a "A" :b "B"))))
00:27	hiredman	uh
00:27	hiredman	,(apply hash-map '(:a "A" :b "B"))
00:27	clojurebot	{:b "B", :a "A"}
00:27	jbondeson	hah
00:27	jbondeson	see
00:28	hiredman	,(apply assoc {} '(:a "A" :b "B"))
00:28	clojurebot	{:b "B", :a "A"}
00:28	hiredman	,(apply (reduce assoc {} '(:a "A" :b "B")))
00:28	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$assoc
00:29	hiredman	oh, right
00:29	jbondeson	tried the reduce way, just not the apply
00:29	hiredman	anyway
00:31	jbondeson	i hardly ever use maps (i mean who could possibly need any other data structure besides a list?) so i always screw the map functions up
00:38	dnolen	jbondeson do you want to preserve the order?
00:39	jbondeson	dnolen: nah, just looking to do keyed arg lookup with defaults
00:40	dnolen	gotcha
01:14	kalle135_	http://alpha10.de
01:19	DTrejo	Hello everybody. Does anyone know if clojure would work with GWT?
01:26	DTrejo	I guess you guys are all asleep. I'll check in later.
01:29	hiredman	trolls is also <reply>Detritus like
01:29	hiredman	~trolls is also <reply>Detritus like
01:29	clojurebot	Roger.
01:30	zakwilson	clojurebot: trolls?
01:30	clojurebot	Detritus like
01:34	DTrejo	clojurebot: trolls?
01:34	clojurebot	according to troll lore living beings move backwards through time
01:36	DTrejo	clojurebot: trolls?
01:36	clojurebot	trolls are like harmless particles that people have terrible allergies to. If you don't start shouting and blowing your nose at them, they're just misguided young men.
01:37	DTrejo	hey hiredman, zakwilson do you know if gwt works with Clojure?
01:43	DTrejo	nevermind, I got my question answered: compile Clojure to Java, decompile to source, then GWT that to JS
01:50	danlei	anyone got slime working with r1303?
02:00	jochu	danlei: Works fine over here, is it broken for you?
02:01	danlei	hm, i get a few errors
02:01	danlei	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: lazy-seq in this context (core.clj:70)
02:02	danlei	and so on, in the inferior-lisp buffer
02:03	jochu	Are you sure you're running r1303? lazy-seq is new / part of the recent lazier clojure. It should be defined.
02:04	danlei	hm, i updated everything (clojure, clojure-contrib, swank-clojure and clojure-mode), but i'll double-check.
02:14	danlei	hm
02:14	danlei	i'll try restarting emacs
02:18	danlei	well, i'm sure i'm at r1303, just ran mvn install, pulled clojure-mode/swank-clojure, and restarted emacs.
02:18	danlei	error messages:
02:19	danlei	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: lazy-seq in this context (core.clj:70)
02:19	danlei	java.lang.Exception: No such var: swank.swank/ignore-protocol-version (NO_SOURCE_FILE:9)
02:19	danlei	java.lang.Exception: No such var: swank.swank/start-server (NO_SOURCE_FILE:11)
02:19	danlei	hm ...
02:23	danlei	i think i've seen similar error messages some time ago ... but i'm not sure ...
02:37	jochu	danlei: Ack, sorry. Um - inside the inferior-lisp buffer can you evaluate (lazy-seq [1]) ?
02:41	danlei	no, neither in the inferior-lisp buffer, nor when running clj from the command line
02:42	danlei	hm, but svn info says r1303 and mvn install installed correctly
02:45	danlei	so i guess i'll have to install the branch with the lazy streams stuff, right?
02:45	hiredman	no
02:45	hiredman	lazy has been merged with the main branch
02:46	danlei	ok, thanks hiredman
02:47	hiredman	I would examine you classpath and make sure the clojure.jar in it is the right one
02:47	hiredman	your
02:48	danlei	i'm just checking. the odd thing is, i just did as always: svn up mvn install ... fire up slime
02:49	danlei	there was no possibility to check the rev from the repl, i guess?
02:49	jochu	Hmm - does 'unzip -l clojure.jar \| grep lazy_seq' list anything?
02:49	danlei	a sec
02:49	hiredman	danlei: well, type lazy-seq
02:50	danlei	no lazy-seq ... ok
02:50	hiredman	~def lazy-seq
02:51	danlei	hm, but i did double check my path with the path mvn installed the jar at (at least it said it did)
02:51	jochu	is there a clean and re-build?
02:51	hiredman	run ant clean
02:51	danlei	ok
02:51	hiredman	and stop using maven :(
02:51	danlei	sorry =)
02:51	danlei	i'm not a java guy
02:52	danlei	what would be better? just typing ant?
02:52	hiredman	yes
02:52	danlei	don't know much about that stuff
02:52	hiredman	ant clean then ant
02:52	jochu	I typically: ant clean && ant
02:52	danlei	ok, i'll ditch maven
02:52	danlei	thanks
02:52	hiredman	ant builds clojure.jar
02:56	danlei	ok, got lazy-seq working, thanks
03:05	danlei	ok, error messages are gone, but now i'll have another problem
03:05	danlei	Connection opened on local port 60599
03:05	danlei	Connecting to swank on port 60599
03:05	danlei	and nothing happens
03:07	danlei	s/i'll/i/
03:14	cmvkk	let's say i have a million chunks of data that i have to generate, and i can generate that data in any order (or all at once concurrently), but i have to write it to file in a particular order.
03:14	cmvkk	what's the best way to make sure that happens while still preserving concurrency? watchers?
03:15	cmvkk	ideally i want to minimize the amount of time a chunk stays in memory before being written to file.
03:16	cmvkk	my idea right now is to number each chunk, then have a series of agents that grab a number off of an incrementing atom, generate that chunk, then put the data in a map ref assoced to its number.
03:17	cmvkk	then have a watcher on the ref that checks to see if the next chunk-to-be-written is in the map?
03:18	cmvkk	...can refs even have watchers?
03:18	danlei	so, if i try to connect manually, by slime-connect 127.0.0.1 <port>, i get this:
03:18	danlei	Exception in thread "Read Loop Thread" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: ""
03:18	danlei	et cetera
03:22	cgrand1	cmvkk: yup refs have watchers
03:23	jochu	danlei: Try deleting ~/.slime/cljclass and see if that helps - but I'm taking off for the night. If you wind up still having issues, shoot me an email including the slime-events buffer and I'll take a look at it tomorrow.
03:24	danlei	ok, thanks jochu
03:26	danlei	works, thank you very much
04:43	Bracki	How do I prinln a vector of strings joining them with spaces?
04:45	ayrnieu	,(interpose " " (map str [1 2 3 4]))
04:45	clojurebot	("1" " " "2" " " "3" " " "4")
04:46	ayrnieu	,(apply str (interpose " " (map str [1 2 3 4])))
04:46	clojurebot	"1 2 3 4"
04:46	ayrnieu	,(apply str (interleave ["hi" "there" "mon" "frere"] (repeat "\n")))
04:46	clojurebot	"hi\nthere\nmon\nfrere\n"
04:47	ayrnieu	Bracki - I noticed that you started watching clj-actos ; I'm not going to do anything with it, so if you're interested I'd advice that you fork it, or study it to get what you want out of it.
05:00	Bracki	Yep, thx.
05:26	Bracki	FAQ
05:26	Bracki	,FAQ
05:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: FAQ in this context
05:28	Bracki	Does _ get a special treatment?
05:28	Bracki	when used in bindings?
05:29	ayrnieu	,((fn [a a] 3))
05:29	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: sandbox$eval--1178$fn
05:29	ayrnieu	,((fn [a a] 3) 1 2)
05:29	clojurebot	3
05:30	ayrnieu	I'd expect that to error in a future version of clojure. [_ _] should not.
05:31	Bracki	Ah because the bindings weren't used in the body?
05:31	ayrnieu	and after AWizzArd writes his clojure lint, you can find unused variables in your code. This too should not warn on _
05:32	Bracki	,(doc frest)
05:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: frest in this context
05:32	Bracki	Hm, is frest gone?
05:35	Bracki	,(doc fnext)
05:35	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (first (next x))"
05:43	gregh	,(doc second)
05:43	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (first (next x))"
05:43	gregh	good to know. :)
05:45	Bracki	(doc last)
05:45	clojurebot	Return the last item in coll, in linear time; arglists ([coll])
05:45	Bracki	How do I convert a String[] into a list or vector?
05:46	Bracki	Ah, lazy-seq.
05:46	alinp	(lazy-seq "abc")
05:47	alinp	,(lazy-seq "abc")
05:47	clojurebot	(\a \b \c)
05:47	alinp	oh, you want to convert an array of Strings
05:58	Bracki	,(import java.net InetAddress)
05:58	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.net
05:58	Bracki	Why doesn't that work?
06:05	leafw	Bracki: check java interop. You may use (import 'java.new.InetAddress) or (import '(java.net InetAddress))
06:06	leafw	the second one lets you add multiple imports from the same namespace.
06:35	djpowell	you probably just want seq rather than lazy-seq
06:36	djpowell	I heard rich mention a unit conversion language in one of his videos, does anyone remember what it was called?
06:38	djpowell	rhickey: what was that unit conversion program you mentioned in one of your videos
06:58	AWizzArd	,(doc drop-while)
06:58	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll starting from the first item for which (pred item) returns nil."
06:58	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
06:58	clojurebot	max people is 149
07:05	klibbigt	http://arclanguage.org/item?id=8903 <- the thing is, i dont know if this guy is joking or not, sadly i think he is serious(hopefully it is someone from this channel being ironic).
07:12	ayrnieu	[] is briefer than #() , fn is briefer than lambda , but clojure also lacks macrolet, symbol-macro, reader macros, several kinds of macro-useful puns. So it's not crazy to say that clojure is too verbose.
07:12	ayrnieu	as Let Over Lambda cautions: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75921
07:13	ayrnieu	but this guy might've been a J hacker.
07:19	AWizzArd	ayrnieu: Rich decided against reader macros. They are a nice thing for a single hacker, but probably not a good thing for teams.
07:22	ayrnieu	they're fine for teams, but it's very arguably a good marketing decision to leave them out.
07:23	klibbigt	ayrnieu: are you kidding me? how is clojure possibly verbose? i dont think rdc instead of reduce or mp instead of map is anything to focus on. id would be stupid t do so. and ti makes things less readable
07:23	AWizzArd	Maybe they can be okay for teams too.. I asked Rich if we can get reader macros. Anyway, we can not prove if they are in general good for the productivity or not (= making software development cheaper).
07:23	klibbigt	what do I need to do to add my own reader-macros? just hack some of the java code right?
07:23	ayrnieu	klibbigt - sorry, are you talking to me from a mirror universe in which half of what I said was the opposide of what I'd written?
07:26	AWizzArd	ayrnieu: you basically want to say: Clojure is not verbose, but it still has potential to reduce verbosity by introducing macrolet and symbol-macro?
07:26	ayrnieu	AWizzArd - did you read that paste?
07:28	AWizzArd	yes
07:29	AWizzArd	The context for question is what you said before you posted that link.
07:29	ayrnieu	hm.
07:30	AWizzArd	the: "So it's not crazy to say that clojure is too verbose."
07:30	AWizzArd	it sounds not that you say that Clojure is verbose, as klibbigt supposes, but instead you see potential for reducing verbosity in the non-verbose language Clojure.
07:32	ayrnieu	AWizzArd, there's a language called HQ9+. It has four instructions: H, Q, 9, and +. H prints "Hello, world!", Q prints a quine of the HQ9+ program, 9 does 99-bottles-of-beer, + increments an accumulator "to make it turing-complete".
07:33	ayrnieu	For the ends, HQ9+ is about as terse as you can get.
07:33	ayrnieu	There's no verbosity in 'h'. The language is very finely optimized.
07:34	ayrnieu	But you would not be crazy to say that it's actually an incredibly verbose language, because the only way to do something seemingly very similar - to print one million "Hello, world!"s, is to put one million 'h' instructions in your program.
07:35	ayrnieu	This is not to say that Clojure is exactly as impaired, but to bludgeon the terms you're using: that laguages 'are verbose', that I could be suggesting something to make it 'less verbose' in an absolute way.
07:38	ayrnieu	with this in mind, http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/28cb9d4217fe6dc3?dmode=source may also help you.
07:38	Bracki	How do I log to the repl?
07:38	ayrnieu	I need to fight vmware.
07:41	Bracki	,(doc repl)
07:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: repl in this context
08:08	Chouser	I think the problem with reader macros isn't so much teams as composing 3rdparty libs.
08:09	rhickey	Chouser: right, reader macros are bad for community
08:09	rhickey	plus, I plan on using all the good characters :)
08:10	Chouser	If hacker X writes lib XL and hacker Y writes YL, and both XL and YL define reader macro $, then when hacker Z wants to use both XL and YL, what should he do??
08:11	Chouser	rhickey: any opinion on the proposed changes to :use? Nothing to say on that subject yet I guess?
08:12	Chouser	rhickey: by which I mean, "good morning". :-)
08:12	rhickey	Chouser: is there a way to be backwards compatible? I think trying to do things compatibly should be the emphasis if possible
08:12	leafw	Chouser: can reader macros be namespaced?
08:13	Chouser	leafw: I made such a proposal, but it was denied. Such is life under a BDFL. :-)
08:13	rhickey	I think people see things like the seq changes and feel - "free-for-all!" let's rename things etc. That was inevitably breaking
08:13	Chouser	rhickey: my original proposal was minimally breaking, but if even that is too much a new keyword could be introduced. :demand
08:14	rhickey	or even :uses
08:14	Chouser	:request
08:14	Chouser	right
08:15	alinp	hi
08:16	alinp	lazy and STM are borrowed from haskell ?
08:16	alinp	as concepts
08:16	Chouser	heh
08:16	alinp	lazy evaluation I mean
08:16	alinp	(at least this is where I met these concepts)
08:17	rhickey	alinp: Clojure doesn't really have lazy evaluation, just lazy sequences, but yes, Haskell inspired there
08:17	Chouser	rhickey: I would have suggest my change even if 1.0 had just been forked. I didn't need any encouragement from you. :-)
08:17	rhickey	The STM is not like Haskell's
08:17	Holcxjo	Backwards compatibility if overrated this early in the development...
08:17	Chouser	leafw: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-06.html#19:36b
08:17	alinp	thanks rhickey
08:19	klibbigt	1
08:20	rhickey	My thought this morning was to do integers as unboxed longs, and floats as unboxed doubles, longs would check for overflow and throw, if you want bigints you have to say so
08:21	rhickey	also have some thoughts on supporting longs and doubles as args/returns
08:21	rhickey	since tagged numbers are so far in the future, if ever
08:22	leafw	rhickey: float math is significantly faster than double math (as much as 2 or 3 times in some instances).
08:22	rhickey	leafw: not in the future
08:22	leafw	rhickey: true.
08:23	Holcxjo	And integers will silently overflow?
08:23	rhickey	Holcxjo: no, never
08:24	rhickey	unless you explicitly say "unsafe"
08:24	Holcxjo	ah! I missed the bit about "check for overflow and throw"
08:25	rhickey	it ends up hotspot does a good job with the overflow-detection code, still many times faster than boxed arithmetic
08:25	Holcxjo	Python sort-of went the other way and made away with the need to explicitly request long ints...
08:25	Holcxjo	... I thought that was a big win
08:25	rhickey	Holcxjo: long ints or bigints?
08:26	Holcxjo	I am a bit hazy about detauls -- you had to append a "L" to an int literal to request a long int (I think those didn't overflow silently)
08:27	rhickey	they grew arbitrarily large?
08:27	Holcxjo	Makes for ugly code to have all the "L"s on you constants just to have correct math in all cases
08:28	Holcxjo	rhickey: I think the long-ints were true bigints, yes
08:28	rhickey	I'm not advocating incorrect math, just "pay for what you use"
08:28	Holcxjo	rhickey: but don't quote me on that -- my mind has forgotten these things
08:28	Chouser	as always I'm in favor of uncluttered code over performance.
08:29	Holcxjo	rhickey: Well there is only a shade of difference between "program doesn't work because it gives wrong results" (silent overflows) or "program doesn't work because it crashes" (throws exception that programmer didn't expect)
08:29	rhickey	Chouser: but how much of your code would overflow long, not counting fib and factorial silliness?
08:30	Holcxjo	rhickey: and how much code will fail in the future when requirements change slightly and you have to deal with a lot more data / larger quantities all of a sudden?
08:31	rhickey	Holcxjo: I understand the theoretical argument, and the absolute need for knowing what is happening, and an option for arbitrary growth, nonetheless, in practice, it's a non-problem for the vast majority of integer arithmetic
08:32	rhickey	that arithmetic being 20x slower as a result
08:32	Holcxjo	rhickey: I agree. What I am saying is that programmers suck at identifying which small bit of their arithmetic does matter here
08:32	Holcxjo	.. or might matter in the future...
08:32	Holcxjo	(remember: nobody will ever need more than 640KB so we can optimise things in the address space for performance)
08:33	rhickey	I guess I've done too much work in C++/Java/C# to believe it's the problem it's made out to be
08:34	rhickey	especially if there is overflow detection
08:34	Holcxjo	Can't we make unboxed numbers being ugly and on-demand, so one can have them when needed?
08:34	rhickey	Holcxjo: that's what we have now, and casual code is much slower at math than equivalent Common Lisp/ Smalltalk
08:35	Holcxjo	rhickey: And that's because in the JVM we cannot tag unboxed numbers or what?
08:35	rhickey	there are domains in which people would have to annotate almost everything
08:35	rhickey	Holcxjo: right, no tags
08:36	rhickey	either primitive or Object
08:36	Chouser	rhickey: only my project euler solutions.
08:38	Chouser	nothing else I do would overflow longs
08:38	Holcxjo	For us JVM ignoramusses: how many bits in a java int? 32? or 31?
08:38	rhickey	Holcxjo: 32
08:39	rhickey	they map to machine instructions
08:39	Chouser	eh, I don't have a horse in this race. I like that everything "just works" now, but it's hardly egregious to require marking numbers that need to grow past long.
08:40	rhickey	Chouser: or perhaps some (with-bignums ...)
08:40	gnuvince	Hello everyone
08:40	rhickey	then we'll just have to argue over the default :)
08:40	rhickey	(with-primitives ...)
08:41	gnuvince	Holcxjo: about Java's integral types, they're all signed.
08:41	Holcxjo	rhickey: rather with-real-integers vs with-fake-integers :-)
08:42	rhickey	do-it-now vs take-all-day :)
08:42	leafw	in image processing, we have to annotate a lot of numbers. The (with-primitives ...) construct would be wellcomed.
08:43	Holcxjo	do-it vs do-or-dont :-)
08:43	leafw	and I agree that the default should be infintely growing numbers (never overflow).
08:44	rhickey	nothing is going to overflow in any case, that is not the proposal
08:46	rhickey	of course, this is still idle speculation, when things cross the call boundary they are boxed and you need to tell me what they are explicitly anyway, at least right now
08:49	leafw	I see how the latter can ruin the whole approach, since it can't be a proper 'binding' propagation.
08:49	rhickey	leafw: not necessarily
08:50	Holcxjo	leafw: Inlining functions should help, or not?
08:53	leafw	I don't know enough of clojure's internal details to say anything about it.
08:54	leafw	I use clojure; I don't develop it.
09:01	leafw	(to further specify that: to me clojure is a full replacement to java the language. I need java the libraries.)
09:43	Bracki	So what's best practice for logging? Can I log to the repl?
09:46	AWizzArd	,(doc drop-while)
09:46	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll starting from the first item for which (pred item) returns nil."
09:46	AWizzArd	rhickey: is it intended in the doc for drop-while to mention only nil? It could for example also read: "... for which (pred item) returns nil or false."
10:01	Chouser	cgrand: have you seen seque?
10:03	Chouser	oh, sorry, the blog post prompting that question is from 8 months ago -- just popped up in my feed reader again.
10:05	cgrand	chouser?
10:07	Chouser	http://clj-me.blogspot.com/2008/06/lazier-than-lazy.html
10:07	cgrand	Chouser: Hmm I guess that feedburner is messing with the feed
10:07	Chouser	seemed similar to seque, so I wondered if you knew about it.
10:08	Chouser	actually, it came to me this time via Clojure Pipe, so any number of intermediaries could be messing with it.
10:09	danlarkin	if only we had planet.clojure.org you could be sure...
10:14	cgrand	Chouser: yes, I know seque. I remember that in a weel or so there were two or three independent attempts to generate a seq in another thread
10:15	cgrand	:s/its/his
10:16	WizardofWestmarc	and here I thought you were admitting to being an AI cgrand ;-)
10:20	cgrand	does someone know how to test (in a macro) if a symbol denotes a local?
10:23	Chouser	besides using eval, resolve, and a process of elimination?
10:24	Chouser	at runtime. :-P
10:25	rhickey	cgrand: there isn't yet an API for exposing the compiler's notion of the environment to a macro
10:26	Chouser	I guess the compiler has some information about the surrounding block by the time it's evaling interior macros?
10:26	rhickey	clojure.lang.Compiler.LOCAL_ENV if you want to play around
10:27	shoover	Chouser: are you off the hook for textjure? I can't actually get the download from sourceforge, so I can't tell where Waterfront stands
10:27	cgrand	rhickey: thanks, I was stupidly blocking on referenceLocal being package, while I didn't checked whether LOCAL_ENV was public...
10:27	Chouser	shoover: I downloaded Waterfront, but haven't tried it yet.
10:28	rhickey	cgrand: referenceLocal is effectful in that it will cause bindings to become closed-over
10:48	Bracki	Should i use #^{:doc ""} or just ""?
10:49	Bracki	for documentation.
10:50	danlarkin	""
10:50	Bracki	When should I use the meta data?
10:51	danlarkin	the other form? when you need to attach to keys other than :doc
10:53	Bracki	And how do I access the doc?
10:53	Chouser	(doc +)
10:53	clojurebot	Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0.; arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more])
10:53	Bracki	,(:doc (meta meta))
10:53	clojurebot	nil
10:53	lisppaste8	ozzilee pasted "A Better Way?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76085
10:54	Chouser	Bracki: that would give you the :doc value of the metadata of the function meta. But docs are usually attached to the var.
10:54	Chouser	,(:doc (meta (var meta)))
10:54	clojurebot	"Returns the metadata of obj, returns nil if there is no metadata."
10:54	ozzilee	Hey all. Is there a better way to do the above? I want to re-use a factory object within a defined function.
10:55	Chouser	ozzilee: you could just store the factory object in another var
10:56	lisppaste8	ozzilee annotated #76085 "Something like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76085#1
10:56	Chouser	oh! hm...
10:56	ozzilee	Chouser: Right, but I don't really need access to the factory object anywhere else...
10:57	ozzilee	I saw memoize in contrib, but that's not quite what I want (I don't think).
10:57	cgrand	ozzilee: invert the let and the def?
10:57	Chouser	ozzilee: I'd normally but it in its own var, and maybe make the var private, but defn inside the let is ok too, I think.
10:58	ozzilee	cgrand: Won't that re-evaluate the (FooFactory.) every time the function is called?
10:59	lisppaste8	cgrand annotated #76085 "inverted def and let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76085#2
10:59	ozzilee	cgrand: Ah, of course. Hmm.
11:00	Chouser	cgrand: nice. I totally missed that.
11:05	Bracki	What's the inverse of (keyword)?
11:06	rhickey	cgrand: like what?
11:06	rhickey	symbol-macrolet?
11:07	AWizzArd	,(str :reverse-of-keyword)
11:07	clojurebot	":reverse-of-keyword"
11:07	cgrand	Bracki: name
11:07	AWizzArd	cgrand: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm
11:08	cgrand	AWizzArd: thanks
11:12	cgrand	rhickey: not quite, I'd like to pass some context information from a macro to another (potentially deeply nested) macro.
11:13	rhickey	cgrand: compile-time vars?
11:15	rhickey	I know, not lexical, but that's how the compiler works
11:20	cgrand	rhickey: yes but, in the compiler, you control when you pop the bindings.
11:22	Chouser	cgrand: deeply nested lexically, right?
11:22	rhickey	cgrand: what's your use case?
11:23	cgrand	(it's not an actual problem, I found a workaround but it keeps nagging me.)
11:23	Chouser	could you share a gensym value between the macros and bind a vlue to it using 'let'?
11:27	cooldude127	alright, my main system still has an old version of clojure before the merge, but i just installed the newest stuff in a VM, time to find out how much code doesn't work anymore
11:28	cgrand	bbl
11:30	cooldude127	and apparently i didn't rely on anything that got messed with, cuz my code just compiled with no errors after no modifications
11:30	cooldude127	seriously? i didn't use rest once?
11:30	jbondeson	cooldude127: you turned on lazy-seq in if assert, right?
11:30	cooldude127	jbondeson: no i did not
11:30	jbondeson	cooldude127: rest is still there
11:30	jbondeson	you have to compile clojure with the flag -Dclojure.assert-if-lazy-seq=please
11:31	cooldude127	jbondeson: oh, so that's an option for the ant command?
11:31	jbondeson	yup
11:31	Chouser	"true" works instead of "please" if you're having a less whimsical day.
11:32	jbondeson	Chouser: yes, but then you're dead inside...
11:33	jbondeson	be nice to clojure and it will be nice to you!
11:33	cooldude127	still no errors, i don't think this code actually did anything like that
11:33	jbondeson	the asserts happen when you run the code
11:33	cooldude127	shit
11:34	jbondeson	it modifies the if macro to check for a naked lazy-seq in the condition and assert if it finds one
11:34	Chouser	compiling successfully means you weren't using lazy-cons yourself, which is good. Those are the one that take the most thought to fix correctly.
11:34	Chouser	though now that seq is cheap again, those probably are easier
11:35	cooldude127	well, some of this stuff is tested, so 78 assertions just all passed
11:35	cooldude127	that's good enough for me, i can't test everything
11:35	gnuvince	cooldude127: check out the random testing libs ;)
11:36	cooldude127	gnuvince: what libs would those be?
11:36	gnuvince	Fact, ClojureCheck
11:36	cooldude127	oh
11:36	cooldude127	like quickcheck for haskell?
11:36	gnuvince	Yep
11:36	gnuvince	QuickCheck is an awesome tool
11:37	Bracki	Loosely based on technomancy's mire I've started to work on this: http://gist.github.com/69650
11:37	Bracki	It's Urkle - the awkward IRCd
11:38	AWizzArd	is there a clause for condp that matches anything?
11:38	Bracki	Any reviews welcome.
11:38	Chouser	AWizzArd: a final single expression
11:39	Chouser	instead of a pair
11:39	AWizzArd	,(condp = (first [1 2]) 2 (println "two") (println "thx"))
11:39	clojurebot	thx
11:40	AWizzArd	:)
11:41	kotarak	AWizzArd: w/o last expression and if no clause matches, condp throws..
11:41	AWizzArd	yes, I like that behaviour, it is just that during my explorative testing phase it is nicer to have something else
12:13	cemerick	Are default print-method and print-dup implementations for arrays coming soon? I have ones for byte[] and char[], but I suspect rhickey has better ideas for hwo such things should work.
12:18	Chouser	cemerick: that's the first time I've heard it suggested
12:19	cemerick	heh
12:21	cemerick	I wrote one-offs for both byte[] and char[], but it occurs to me that in general, primitive arrays would be best print-dup'd using java serialization.
12:21	cp2	hi guys
12:24	cemerick	I guess it would still be better (and just as space-efficient) to prefer a human-readable form for char[], though.
12:27	cooldude127	jbondeson: chouser already wrote the stuff i want
12:27	cooldude127	it just isn't in the language yet
12:27	jbondeson	suuuure, not you have other people doing your dirty work
12:27	jbondeson	-not+now
12:27	cooldude127	lol
12:28	cooldude127	i believe he wrote it before i even wanted it
12:28	jbondeson	standing on top of a mountain of midgets also works, you just need more of them
12:30	leafw	jbondeson: that is not true -- becuse of what the "mythical man month" explains.
12:31	cooldude127	lol
12:32	jbondeson	i must have missed the chapter on the theoretical impossibilty of midget moutains in MMM
12:35	cemerick	midgets generally can't see far enough to know which way to go though, so it's pretty easy to be led astray with a mountain of them.
12:43	AWizzArd	Can one (reset! a-future)?
12:43	jbondeson	AWizzArd: that wouldn't make much sense, why would you want to do that?
12:45	AWizzArd	I have something that takes about 5 seconds. I would like to run this is a separate thread, so the user can continue without waiting. Sounds like an agent. But it needs full replacement always, which sounds like an atom, but those don't run in their own thread.
12:45	AWizzArd	And I want it to block when the user actually does something that requsets this data. Sounds like a future.
12:46	AWizzArd	So, I like the behaviour of futures to run in their own thread and to block until @future is available.
12:46	AWizzArd	But I need to change it. A future is a constant.
12:47	danlarkin	can't you just use an agent with (fn [new-state old-state] new-state) as its modifier function or whatever?
12:47	AWizzArd	the problem I see is that @agent immediately returns a result, even if the agent is still working
12:47	jbondeson	you could have a ref to a future and a function to manage it for you.
12:47	jbondeson	though you'd have to double de-ref
12:47	durka42	(await agent) will block
12:48	hiredman	and futures can await
12:48	durka42	or you could have like an atom with a future in it and keep swapping the future out
12:48	AWizzArd	yes sure, I can get there.. but each of those have disadvantages. The (await agent) is a leaky abstraction, as I never may forget the await before I deref. This can not happen with a future
12:49	cemerick	it's a very common pattern for the implementation of print-method and print-dup to be the same for various dispatch types -- maybe defmethod should take a list of multimethods, rather than single one.....
12:49	AWizzArd	durka42: that's about what I am doing at the moment, but the @@atomfuture looks strange j)
12:49	AWizzArd	j) ==> ;)
12:49	hiredman	cemerick: write a macro where it does
12:50	cemerick	hiredman: sure, that's trivial -- I was suggesting that it would be useful generally
12:50	AWizzArd	cool would be: futures that can be resetted, or having atoms running in their own thread
12:56	Chouser	AWizzArd: I don't really understand -- when you deref or force this thing, you want the previously computed value, or you want it to always block until a new value is calculated?
12:57	AWizzArd	Chouser: second, on derefferencing block until the calculation finished
12:57	AWizzArd	a future is doing this, plus it runs in parallel
13:03	durka42	how does clojure deal with this problem? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_transactional_memory#Implementation_issues
13:03	tashafa	question... is it safe to update to the latest SVN of clojure
13:03	tashafa	?
13:03	tashafa	and still be able to use swank
13:03	tashafa	and emacs/slime
13:03	WizardofWestmarc	tashafa: if you update to latest swank last I heard it worked
13:03	triddell	tashafa: works for me
13:04	tashafa	yay! thanks guys
13:13	danlarkin	I will say this about mark volkmann; he sure does post on the mailing list a _lot_
13:17	jbondeson	clojurebot: Object Computing?
13:17	clojurebot	see Subject Computing, Inc
13:35	gnuvince	danlarkin: that he does.
13:43	Lau_of_DK	Good evening guys
13:44	fogus	There's a clojure mailing list?
13:44	Chouser	fogus: google group
13:44	fogus	ahhhh, of course
13:45	Chouser	danlarkin: he's not the top poster this month. He's actually 7th
13:45	danlarkin	is he the top thread starter though?
13:46	technomancy	it's kind of scary that Google considers it do be "low" traffic
13:47	danlarkin	it's a part time job reading all the threads as it is
13:48	Chouser	I don't have that number. http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/about
13:50	shoover	danlarkin: ever look at comp.lisp.lang? full time job
13:50	gregh	comp.lang.lisp is even busier! :)
13:51	technomancy	shoover: heck, it's a full-time job just ignoring c.l.l.
13:51	Chouser	heh
13:51	WizardofWestmarc	yeah I finally gave up on following c.l.l
13:51	WizardofWestmarc	I was just skipping so many posts it wasn't worth keeping in the RSS reader
13:51	AWizzArd	too bad, there was such a nice thread in the past days ;)
13:52	WizardofWestmarc	especially since I wasn't USING CL heh
13:52	WizardofWestmarc	the clojure one? I read that when it got linked
13:52	WizardofWestmarc	up to at least one round of Rich pointing out how ignorant some people were about the language
13:52	AWizzArd	while the google group actually discusses Clojure and gives nice support, in c.l.l Clojure is discussed itself.
13:52	WizardofWestmarc	(clojure)
13:52	fogus	reading xah lee's posts on c.l.l is a full-time job
13:52	WizardofWestmarc	ungh
13:52	fogus	maybe that's why everyone ignores him? ;)
13:53	WizardofWestmarc	if I could have a kill file in RSS, he'd have gone in it.
13:53	AWizzArd	kill filing is not so much needed, just don't read his posts
13:53	technomancy	heh
13:54	technomancy	that's how I first discovered the /ignore command on IRC
13:54	WizardofWestmarc	but it's all that scrolling to get past all of them :P
13:54	WizardofWestmarc	haha I've never used ignore really for irc
13:54	WizardofWestmarc	but then about the only other channel I hang out in besides this one I'm an #op so ignore's a bad idea >_>
13:55	AWizzArd	lately some lisp experts did not portrait Clojure correctly
13:55	AWizzArd	in c.l.l
13:56	fogus	AWizzArd: In the "Road to CLojure" thread?
13:56	technomancy	of course, they're not biased at all, right?
13:56	AWizzArd	history repeats.. since decades people who don't know Lisp and have never tried it were explaining things about Lisp, and posted why it doesn't work
13:57	AWizzArd	now the funny thing is: it happens again with the new dialect Clojure. But this time it's the Lispers who misrepresent it
13:57	AWizzArd	fogus: yes that thread
13:57	AWizzArd	I think I wrote 50% of it ;)
13:58	fogus	I tried my best to follow that thread, but I lost track after a couple days away from the computer. What's the general gist of the misrepresentation(s)?
13:58	rhickey	AWizzArd: == Andre?
13:58	AWizzArd	rhickey: indeed
13:58	AWizzArd	I did not know that you were not aware of it ;)
14:12	Chousuke	I consider the c.l.l people's reaction towards Clojure quite expected.
14:13	Chousuke	Clojure does break many traditions
14:13	Chousuke	people like tradition :)
14:13	Lau_of_DK	c.l.l ?
14:13	Chousuke	comp.lang.lisp
14:14	technomancy	they're probably jealous of the interest it's getting too; CL has a hard time picking up inertia.
14:14	Chousuke	I don't think anyone should try to assert which language is "better" than the others. :/
14:15	technomancy	Chousuke: not to anyone who has a vested interest in the others, at least. =)
14:15	Chousuke	it doesn't make sense in general
14:16	Chousuke	if I say Clojure is better than CL, that assertion contains no information at all.
14:16	Chousuke	except my opinion, which is worthless
14:16	cemerick	ugh, having literals for array classes would be really handy right now...
14:16	Chouser	cemerick: into-array is too verbose?
14:16	p_l	gah, Tilton made a real flamebait on c.l.l
14:16	Chousuke	unless of course I establish first that my opinion matters :)
14:17	WizardofWestmarc	p_l: Kenny's good at flame bait
14:17	cemerick	Chouser: no, into-array is fine, but if I want the char[] Class, then you need (class (make-array Character/TYPE 0)) or somesuch (unless I'm missing something).
14:18	cemerick	I've got an arrayclass macro that does that, but even that is irritating
14:18	hiredman	ooo
14:18	hiredman	another clojure editor in clojure
14:20	durka42	waterfront?
14:20	hiredman	yeah
14:38	cemerick	(read-string "#=(.toCharArray \"foo\")") => Exception: can't resolve .toCharArray ..... any ideas why this?
14:38	cemerick	s/this/this is
14:40	cemerick	ah, but (eval (read-string "(.toCharArray \"foo\")")) works just fine -- I feel like I'm missing something about how the reader works within the context of #= forms
14:42	brianh_	wow. i'm going along, allowing life to interfere with my contrib updates over several days & wham! I've got C# code on my box
14:42	brianh_	i promise not to let it happen again! :)
14:46	p_l	brianh_: ?
14:47	brianh_	there's a clojureCLR package in contrib now
14:49	p_l	:)
14:50	brianh_	btw good news. my manager has agreed to let me use clojure in an 'official' prototype/proof-of-concept project here at work
14:50	clojurebot	svn rev 1304; fix nil pun in genclass
14:50	jbondeson	waaaait a sec, you ask permission? just "accidentally" let it go to production! ;)
14:51	WizardofWestmarc	If we used the jvm here at work there would already be code in production from clojure >_>
14:51	Chouser	brianh_: nice!
14:51	brianh_	jbondeson: heh. that was going to be my next tactic ;)
14:51	WizardofWestmarc	then hear all the shrieks of horror at sexpressions >_>
14:52	jbondeson	i'm about 2 shakes from getting some F# into production...
14:52	jbondeson	"compiles the same!"
14:52	gnuvince	"That's Sun's new extension to make concurrency easier. They changed the syntax a bit..."
14:52	Raynes	F# makes the hair on the back of my neck raise.
14:53	jbondeson	it's just O'Caml
14:53	AWizzArd	has good ideas
14:53	Raynes	How can you pack so much inelegance in a single language. @_@
14:53	AWizzArd	way better than coding Java or C# :)
14:54	jbondeson	Raynes: start with the ugly syntax of ML, add OO functionality to it, and then bring it to the CLR
14:54	technomancy	well, vaguely interested
14:54	p_l	nah, ML syntax is not bad
14:54	Raynes	p_l: Stop it.
14:54	Raynes	:\|
14:54	jbondeson	;; is pretty bad
14:54	p_l	Raynes: Won't :P
14:54	gnuvince	jbondeson: you use that at the REPL only.
14:55	jbondeson	gnuvince: or at as an explicit statement break
14:55	gnuvince	that's a single ;
14:55	jbondeson	single was used inside of statements
14:55	jbondeson	iirc
14:55	clojurebot	svn rev 1305; really fix nil pun in genclass
14:55	gnuvince	print_string "Hello";
14:55	gnuvince	print_int "world"
14:56	gnuvince	errr
14:56	gnuvince	print_string "world"
14:56	gnuvince	dur
14:59	jbondeson	yeah, ; can be used to separate array items, or sub-statements
14:59	jbondeson	(at least in ocaml
14:59	gnuvince	yeah
14:59	gnuvince	Not sure in F#
14:59	jbondeson	you can use it, generally don't
15:00	gnuvince	The # pretty much assured that I wouldn't pick it up in my spare time.
15:00	WizardofWestmarc	what if it were Gb ?
15:00	jbondeson	they can cross compile with ocaml pretty well
15:00	hiredman	har har
15:00	gnuvince	WizardofWestmarc: it's .NET. I don't want to reboot into Windows to use Visual Studio
15:00	WizardofWestmarc	ah ha
15:00	WizardofWestmarc	understandable
15:00	jbondeson	gnuvince: yeah, see i work in a windows shop, sooooo
15:01	jbondeson	i'll take functional where i can get it
15:01	gnuvince	yeah sure.
15:01	gnuvince	I wouldn't mind using F#
15:01	gnuvince	I just would mind doing it on my time.
15:01	gnuvince	I'd rather go with languages that don't require me to buy a $700 IDE
15:01	jbondeson	you don't
15:01	jbondeson	it works with the free VS
15:01	fogus	I have F# install on my Mac in Mono... played around with it a bit, but not extensively
15:02	gnuvince	jbondeson: still need to reboot.
15:02	gnuvince	Anyway
15:02	jbondeson	vmware? ;)
15:02	gnuvince	As long as I'm going to get into statically typed functional languages, I may as well continue my Haskell journey.
15:02	adakkak	is there a different syntax for (:import ) in REPL?
15:02	gnuvince	adakkak: no
15:03	gnuvince	adakkak: (ns foo (:import (java.io File)))
15:03	gnuvince	Alternatively: (import '(java.io File))
15:04	p_l	If only Java didn't have borked X11 support (and requiring a big download for someone who doesn't have java installed) I might have used it for application writing more...
15:05	WizardofWestmarc	don't most OSes come with Java prepackaged these days?
15:05	gnuvince	windows doesn't
15:05	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: Only Solaris?
15:05	WizardofWestmarc	um
15:05	WizardofWestmarc	pretty sure my laptop had Java already on it, which is Vista
15:05	p_l	srsly, only Solaris has not-broken, available-by-default Java install
15:05	WizardofWestmarc	JVM 1.6
15:06	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: MS doesn't have license to include JVM with operating system
15:06	WizardofWestmarc	I thought the courts required them to include it after the whole MS JVM debacle
15:06	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: It's your OEM's doing. Rare thing except for enterprise installs
15:06	adakkak	can someone tell me what I doing wrong with this import then http://paste.lisp.org/display/76102
15:06	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: Actually it was removed with XP SP1a
15:07	danlarkin	os x ships with java
15:07	hiredman	~jdoc org.apache.http.client.HttpClient
15:07	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: Removed what was left of it, which wasn't enough to run anything other than simple applets that didn't use JVM 1.4 :)
15:08	WizardofWestmarc	huh
15:09	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: The only reason why my laptop came with JVM 1.6 preinstalled was because it had NetBeans, BlueJ and Eclipse included, for coursework (university-prepared system image)
15:09	adakkak	hiredman: the link does not work
15:09	hiredman	adakkak: I am aware
15:09	WizardofWestmarc	p_l: mine was a Lenovo laptop
15:10	p_l	WizardofWestmarc: Then Lenovo bundles Java by default (mine was R61i)
15:10	hiredman	adakkak: what does clj do?
15:10	p_l	However, I know that most don't include Java
15:10	p_l	Also, getting java on some linux distros is a royal PITA
15:11	adakkak	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.apache.http.client.HttpClient (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:11	hiredman	adakkak: what is in your launcher script
15:12	adakkak	this is the one I am using http://paste.lisp.org/display/76104
15:14	hiredman	adakkak: that script doesn't start the jvm (run the java command) anywere
15:15	hiredman	so either that paste is incomplete, or that is not the script you are using
15:16	hiredman	ok
15:16	adakkak	sorry, it was incomplete here is an updated version http://paste.lisp.org/display/76104#1
15:16	hiredman	ok
15:17	hiredman	that script uses the -cp option which causes java to ignore CLASSPATH
15:18	hiredman	it is setup to load jars out of ~/.clojure
15:18	hiredman	so either change the script, or put your jars in ~/.clojure
15:19	adakkak	hiredman: thanks
15:19	hiredman	the alternative syntax thread is still going
15:19	hiredman	:\|
15:19	hiredman	adakkak: np
15:19	adakkak	added $CLASSPATH to the script
15:21	Chouser	hm, no way to get 'future' to use the soloExecutor.
15:22	gnuvince	Should Joshua Choi's fnparse library be considered for inclusion in clojure-contrib (if he agrees, of course)
15:23	cooldude127	what's fnparse do?
15:23	jbondeson	parse!
15:24	jbondeson	>_>
15:24	gnuvince	http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/tree/fdeea49a1b0ba98456f8f401eab7c74f69ee6f1a/src/name/choi/joshua
15:24	danlarkin	it's a functional parser library
15:25	danlarkin	it's very useful, I like it
15:25	jbondeson	quite slick at that
15:26	cooldude127	i don't understand it, but that doesn't mean it's not useful
15:28	danlarkin	it took me a while to grok it but now that I do I'm seeing everything in terms of functions that return functions that parse :-o
15:29	cooldude127	lol
15:29	adakkak	Now that I figured out how to import the http-client apache library, I am having trouble using it. Why would (HttpClient.) give me a constructor error
15:30	cooldude127	adakkak: perhaps it has no default constructor?
15:30	danlarkin	adakkak: the constructor probably takes arguments
15:32	hiredman	~google apache HttpClient
15:32	clojurebot	First, out of 104000 results is:
15:32	clojurebot	HttpClient - HttpClient Home
15:32	clojurebot	http://hc.apache.org/httpclient-3.x/
15:32	gnuvince	I can't get the postscript file Josh links to :-/
15:33	hiredman	adakkak: you know, I seem to remember walking down this path myself once
15:33	hiredman	I ended up using xlightweb instead
15:33	digash`	(org.apache.http.impl.client.DefaultHttpClient.)
15:33	hiredman	http://xlightweb.sourceforge.net/
15:34	danlarkin	technomancy: I would like to see one
15:34	p_l	technomancy: Port drakma? :)
15:34	danlarkin	but only if it's full featured!
15:35	adakkak	thanks
15:35	danlarkin	I want everything, toggles for following redirects, cookie support, the whole bag of tricks
15:35	technomancy	danlarkin: what qualifies as "full"?
15:35	p_l	danlarkin: then a drakma port it should be... afaik drakma supported everything and a kitchen sink
15:35	technomancy	ah yeah, sure
15:35	Bracki	cooldude127: thx for the find-graph rewrite
15:36	adakkak	so I can use (org.apache....) without doing an import?
15:36	technomancy	custom HTTP headers is the main thing I would need
15:36	danlarkin	technomancy: python's urllib2 + some... never heard of drakma, I'll look at it now
15:36	cooldude127	Bracki: funny story, this week in my data structures class i had to write a findPath function in java using both BFS and DFS
15:36	Chouser	(with-open [s (BufferedReader. (InputStreamReader. (.openStream (java.net.URL. "http://google.com/"))))] (vec (line-seq s)))
15:37	cooldude127	Bracki: weird how those lined up
15:37	digash`	adakkak: sure
15:37	technomancy	danlarkin: once I get the screencast finished ...
15:37	p_l	http://weitz.de/drakma/ <--- that would be nice to have on clojure, I guess :)
15:37	technomancy	there are so many great ways I could end that sentence.
15:38	technomancy	probably would do the date lib first though; there's more pain without that
15:39	danlarkin	hasn't cooldude127 done a date lib?
15:40	cooldude127	danlarkin: i've started one
15:40	cooldude127	it's on github in my fork of clojure-contrib
15:40	cooldude127	http://github.com/cooldude127/clojure-contrib
15:41	jbondeson	is there any clean way to do a recursive function when it takes "& args"? the double-listing is a pain.
15:42	danlarkin	jbondeson: can you define multiple arities, only one taking & args?
15:43	jbondeson	'spose, was hoping there was an easy answer with the recursive call doing some list destructuring.
15:46	cemerick	rhickey__: so, dotted ctors work OK in #=, but dotted method invocations don't. Do you expect that to persist? (read-string "#=(.toCharArray \"foo\")") => Exception
15:48	technomancy	danlarkin: yeah, I meant cleaning up his and getting it into contrib
15:56	danlarkin	jbondeson: well you can use destructuring with & args
15:56	danlarkin	not sure exactly what you want to do, though
15:57	jbondeson	i would like to convert the (recursive-call (next args)) -> (recursive-call :the :actual :next :args)
15:57	jbondeson	that would be nice
15:57	danlarkin	hm apply?
15:58	hiredman	you could just use trampoline
15:58	jbondeson	hiredman: interesting idea
15:59	hiredman	trampoline is not a macro right?
15:59	jbondeson	though it may have the same problem since it takes & args
15:59	jbondeson	crap, gotta go to a meeting =/
15:59	hiredman	(apply trampoline func args)
15:59	hiredman	and for recur, #(apply func args)
16:02	danlarkin	I'm assuming he's creating a lazy seq
16:02	danlarkin	for obvious reasons
16:04	hiredman	,(doc lazy-seq)
16:04	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. Any closed over locals will be cleared prior to the tail call of body."
16:05	hiredman	I do not think he is creating a lazy-seq
16:08	danlarkin	is there still lazy-cat?
16:08	danlarkin	(doc lazy-cat)
16:08	clojurebot	Expands to code which yields a lazy sequence of the concatenation of the supplied colls. Each coll expr is not evaluated until it is needed. (lazy-cat xs ys zs) === (concat (lazy-seq xs) (lazy-seq ys) (lazy-seq zs)); arglists ([& colls])
16:08	danlarkin	he could be using that
16:26	lisppaste8	cemerick pasted "print-dup implementation for enums" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76108
16:26	cemerick	The above would work if http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_frm/thread/34e4d47fc5144512 were resolved one way or the other.
16:33	adakkak	is there another way of writing (not (= a b)) in clojure, is there a != operator?
16:34	cooldude127	adakkak: not=
16:34	cooldude127	(not= a b)
16:36	hiredman	,((comp not =) 'a 'b)
16:36	clojurebot	true
16:37	adakkak	thanks
16:37	durka42	,((complement =) 'a 'b)
16:37	clojurebot	true
16:37	hiredman	oooh
16:42	adakkak	how do you raise exceptions in clojure
16:43	adakkak	is it just using (Exception. "name") , or is there something specific to clojure?
16:44	technomancy	I think you have to call throw on it. but it's pure Java IIUC
16:44	technomancy	no special lisp syntax
16:45	jbondeson	hiredman: trampoline worked, thanks
16:45	Chouser	unless you feel like trying clojure.contrib.error-kit
16:45	durka42	you can also play with chouser's error-kit
16:45	durka42	heh
16:45	durka42	which i keep meaning to do
16:45	cooldude127	error-kit is good stuff :)
16:45	Chouser	bah. missed an opportunity for false modesty.
16:48	Lau_of_DK	thats a shame Chouser.. btw did you try out ClojureQL yet? :)
16:48	Chouser	heh.
16:55	adakkak	,((comp java.io.FileInputStream. java.io.File.) "/tmp/f")
16:55	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.io.FileInputStream.
16:57	hiredman	adakkak: java constructors and methods are not fns so not composable directly
16:57	adakkak	so it's reserved for clojure functions
16:58	hiredman	sure, if you want to put it that way
16:58	hiredman	(java.io.FileInputStream. x) is not a function call
16:58	hiredman	it is wrapped in syntactic sugar to make it look like one
16:58	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(java.io.FileInputStream. x))
16:58	clojurebot	(new java.io.FileInputStream x)
16:59	jbondeson	we're playing "tell me what idiotic things i'm doing" day with jbondeson.
16:59	adakkak	so macros are not composable
16:59	jbondeson	there's nothing that is (and (seq? x) (seq x)), right?
17:00	hiredman	only fns are composable by the comp fn
17:01	hiredman	,(macro (meta #'comp))
17:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: macro in this context
17:01	hiredman	,(:macro (meta #'comp))
17:01	clojurebot	nil
17:01	hiredman	,(:macro (meta #'for))
17:01	clojurebot	true
17:01	hiredman	I was pretty sure comp was a fn, but not completely sure
17:02	Chouser	jbondeson: 'seq' is the same as 'identity' on something that returns true for 'seq?'
17:02	jbondeson	except ()
17:03	Chouser	jbondeson: hm!
17:03	jbondeson	that's the check i've been using for "No Really I'm Not a Non-Empty Seq!"
17:03	Chouser	I guess you're right. lazierness hasn't all sunk in yet.
17:04	jbondeson	err i am a non-empty seq that is.
17:04	jbondeson	i just seem to do that quite a bit with the new lazy seqs
17:04	Chouser	(#(and (seq? x) (seq x)) '(1 2 3))
17:05	Chouser	,(#(and (seq? x) (seq x)) '(1 2 3))
17:05	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context
17:05	Chouser	,(#(and (seq? %) (seq %)) '(1 2 3))
17:05	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
17:05	hiredman	I would like #(or (and (seq? %) (seq %)) %)
17:06	Chouser	jbondeson: I guess you don't need to differentiate between lazy seqs and lists?
17:06	jbondeson	Chouser: right, i want '() and (lazy-seq nil) to be treated the same
17:06	Lau_of_DK	Guys, new screenshots at http://wiki.github.com/Lau-of-DK/sofiaba - The new stuff is detailmaps and pre-made landscape (as opposed to fractals generated on the fly), and the entire world can now be controlled from the repl, ie. interactively. next up: Physics :)
17:06	Lau_of_DK
17:07	cemerick	Lau_of_DK: hey, that looks sick! :-D
17:07	jbondeson	I just need to make sure i'm not getting an empty list
17:08	Lau_of_DK	cemerick: Yea, but its gonna get real good soon :)
17:08	jbondeson	the other option is (if (seq? x) (when-let [y (first x)] ... ))
17:08	jbondeson	which i don't particularly like
17:08	Chouser	jbondeson: why not just (seq x) -- true for non-empty collections and seqs, false for nil and empty seqs
17:09	cemerick	I'm glad to know about jmonkeyengine -- looks like fun stuff
17:09	Lau_of_DK	cemerick: It has huge potential, but until I get everything wrapped its a real pain the java Interop
17:09	jbondeson	Chouser: I could do that, if i don't want to treat the non-lists differently
17:09	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, I gotta get to bed, if anybody want to contribute with porting the physics of models part - let me know, good night all
17:16	tashafa	hmm.. is there a particular revision of clojure I need to get? 'cause when I start slime I get errors about being unable to resolve lazy-cons
17:16	technomancy	tashafa: are you sure those are slime errors? can you try the same code from a bare REPL?
17:16	jbondeson	your swank-clojure is out of date.
17:17	tashafa	i just fetched swank-clojure from git though
17:18	jbondeson	odd, cause he got rid of lazy-cons last week
17:18	technomancy	tashafa: it's probably not a slime problem then
17:18	technomancy	it's probably just an error in another library that's getting displayed by slime
17:18	technomancy	tashafa: what's the codebase?
17:18	jbondeson	do you have any hooks that setup your slime repl?
17:18	tashafa	yeah... its not a slime problem
17:19	tashafa	but thats where the java Exception is cropping up
17:20	tashafa	hmm not that i know of
17:20	tashafa	everything is fresh... fresh .emacs fresh clojure.jar, swank, clojure-mode, slime
17:21	tashafa	all pristine from their repos
17:22	technomancy	tashafa: any dependency libs? contrib?
17:22	tashafa	i use contrib
17:22	tashafa	hmm ...
17:22	technomancy	tashafa: some of the contrib libraries haven't been updated yet.
17:22	tashafa	wait i havent updatated compojure
17:23	tashafa	thats in my class path
17:31	tashafa	no success
17:32	tashafa	everything in my classpath is updated
17:32	tashafa	something is calling lazy-cons still
17:32	tashafa	which has been removed
17:33	tashafa	,(doc lazy-cons)
17:33	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: lazy-cons in this context
17:34	Chouser	tashafa: can't you get a stack trace?
17:35	Chouser	it should tell you the file and line number where it's finding a use of lazy-cons
17:36	tashafa	it only shows one line errors, it does this right after 'M-x slime'
17:37	technomancy	tashafa: you should be able to press 1 to see what caused the error
17:38	tashafa	core.clj line 70
17:40	tashafa	nah it isnt quite connected to the REPL
17:40	Chouser	that's certainly not svn 1305
17:40	hiredman	tashafa: actually someone last night ran into this
17:40	tashafa	its in that inferior lisp mode
17:40	hiredman	getting errors about line 70 in core.clj
17:41	tashafa	yeah i dont see lazy-cons in core.clj
17:41	hiredman	of course
17:41	hiredman	because it isn't there
17:43	tashafa	yeah but something thinks it is
17:43	tashafa	or it should be
17:43	tashafa	... rebuilding clojure jar
17:44	hiredman	run ant clean first
17:45	tashafa	will do
17:49	tashafa	hiredman: i found that thread you are trying to remember
17:50	hiredman	does it fix it?
17:50	tashafa	for him, yes
17:51	tashafa	he basically ran clean and rebuild ant tasks
17:51	tashafa	doing the same right now
17:56	tashafa	:(
17:56	tashafa	no luck
17:59	Chouser	too many moving parts
18:03	tashafa	what is?
18:06	whidden	tashafa: you still having issues with slime?
18:08	tashafa	yup
18:09	tashafa	i've searched all core.clj files on line 70 for lazy-cons and I cant find were it being referenced
18:09	whidden	its in commands
18:09	tashafa	?
18:09	whidden	basic.clj and indent
18:10	whidden	s/indent/indent.clj/
18:10	tashafa	in clojure?
18:10	whidden	no in swank
18:10	whidden	in clojure lazy is gone if i understand the lazy stuff is now in head.
18:11	whidden	or what i mean is there is all things are lazy thus
18:11	jbondeson	whidden: that's all been updated
18:11	whidden	no need to specify lazy.
18:11	tashafa	yup thats where it is
18:11	jbondeson	tashafa: wait, you found a lazy-cons?
18:11	tashafa	yeah
18:11	jbondeson	if you did your swank-clojure is out of date
18:12	jbondeson	they are all gone
18:12	tashafa	in swank
18:12	whidden	how long ago did you get the swank-clojure head?
18:12	tashafa	hmm i'll pull from github again
18:12	tashafa	just now
18:12	whidden	14 hours ago is when indent.clj was last updated.
18:13	tashafa	like an hour ago
18:15	tashafa	jochu's swank from github right?
18:15	whidden	yep
18:15	jbondeson	yes, master
18:15	jbondeson	as in that's the branch
18:15	tashafa	aight cool thx
18:18	tashafa	ok that kinda worked...
18:18	tashafa	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unexpected internal error near index 1
18:18	jbondeson	tashafa: yeah, you'll get that, but it doesn't affect slime any
18:18	tashafa	the repl says is connected but im not in the proper clojure repl
18:19	whidden	hit return twice
18:19	tashafa	tried that
18:19	tashafa	no success
18:20	tashafa	question about hitting the enter twice... i used to not do that, but i updated and i started doing it, before today... is that normal?
18:21	whidden	i have to catch a train in a couple of minutes. I'll try getting the newest clojure working with slime tonight or early tomorrow.
18:21	tashafa	cool... thanks for all your help!
18:21	whidden	not normal, but it had something to do with how repl and slime were communicating.
18:22	whidden	the fix for that was nonsensical to me.
18:22	whidden	basicaly asking clojure to generate a random number for silme.
18:23	tashafa	and how do i go about doing that, if you dont mind
18:23	whidden	this was part of the line added to fix that .. " "(println (java.util.UUID/randomUUID))\n""
18:23	tashafa	sorry but, where does that go?
18:23	whidden	but you should have that in swank-clojure.el
18:24	tashafa	.el
18:24	whidden	yes.
18:24	whidden	emacs elisp file.
18:25	tashafa	even though it calls java.
18:26	lisppaste8	whidden pasted "swank stuff" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76114
18:26	tashafa	whidden: thanks
18:27	tashafa	dont let me make you miss your train
18:27	whidden	just trying to give back the help i got.
18:27	whidden	thanks.. 3 more minutes before the bell tolls :)
18:27	whidden	need to pack up thought.. later.
18:27	tashafa	alright my man, thanks again
18:31	jkantz	question about laziness: when doing (map my-fn stuff) if I want my-fn to refer to a dynamic binding, say foo do I need to capture the binding like this (map (let [x foo] (fn [arg] (binding [foo x] (my-fn arg))) stuff)?
18:32	hiredman	,(binding [out 1] (map #(+ out %) (range 5)))
18:32	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.io.StringWriter cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
18:33	hiredman	,(binding [out 1] (doall (map #(+ out %) (range 5))))
18:33	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
18:33	hiredman	~map?
18:33	clojurebot	map is LAZY
18:33	hiredman	anyway, no, you don't
18:34	jkantz	but if I want to retain the laziness ... it looks like I would.
18:34	hiredman	I guess
18:35	Chouser	you want the fn you're giving to map to keep access to the dynamic context where it was defined?
18:35	jkantz	yeah
18:36	Chouser	you'll have to capture the dynamic values you want in a lexical scope
18:36	Chouser	I saw a macro for that recently...
18:39	Chouser	hm, no that's specifically for agents
18:39	Chouser	http://clj-me.blogspot.com/2009/01/bindings-and-send.html
18:39	Chouser	but I think you could do something similar
18:42	jkantz	ok thks, is it desirable for a lazy seq to not capture it's dynamic context, or is this just the way it works?
18:44	jkantz	I guess that would require continuations
18:44	tashafa	ok i have swank and everythig working... but its stuck in inferior lisp mode
18:45	tashafa	how do i get to clojure repl
18:45	technomancy	tashafa: does your slime-setup call include slime-repl or slime-fancy?
18:46	tashafa	nope ... just require slime then slime seup
18:46	tashafa	setup*
18:46	hiredman	jkantz: I dunno, seems like the point of dynamic scopes is they are dynamic
18:47	technomancy	tashafa: try this instead: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy))
18:47	technomancy	tashafa: slime recently moved the repl into contrib, so you'll need to make sure slime/contrib is on your load-path
18:47	technomancy	tashafa: have you tried using M-x clojure-install from the latest clojure-mode?
18:48	technomancy	it should automate away your woes
18:48	tashafa	nope i havent...
18:49	hiredman	but I can see how people might want to hang on to the dynamic scope in lazy-seqs
18:49	tashafa	YAY!
18:49	tashafa	slime fancy-worked
18:50	tashafa	technonacy: thanks!
18:50	technomancy	cool
18:52	jkantz	Chouser, I'm playing around with cl-style handlers and restarts and run into missing handlers when the signaling within a map fn
18:52	jkantz	error-kit may have similar issues with raise
18:54	tashafa	,(doc frest)
18:54	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: frest in this context
18:56	jochu	,(doc fnext)
18:56	clojurebot	"([x]); Same as (first (next x))"
18:56	tashafa	so frest has been removed... do i use (first (rest x)) or there's another cleaner way
18:57	tashafa	and rest is removed also right
18:58	tashafa	(doc next)
18:58	clojurebot	Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil.; arglists ([coll])
18:59	tashafa	(doc nnext)
18:59	clojurebot	Same as (next (next x)); arglists ([x])
18:59	hiredman	haha
18:59	hiredman	I never noticed those
18:59	hiredman	nnext
18:59	tashafa	sorry for some reason I'd rather have the clojurebot tell me than my repl
19:00	hiredman	~botsnack
19:00	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
19:01	hiredman	I have no problem with clojurebot usage
19:10	jbondeson	hah, i just did a straight prn of a zip-xml object that was loaded from a 1MB XML file and on disk it's over 250MB and still writing to disk...
19:10	durka42	that's a pretty good compression algorithm...
19:10	hiredman	Smooth
19:11	jbondeson	1.1MB -> 296MB
19:11	jbondeson	i guess it's good that it uses so much structure sharing in memory ;)
19:12	jbondeson	i think that maybe i won't store it on disk like that...
19:12	hiredman	maybe not
19:15	jbondeson	i think i'll have to do individual zippers as i don't care about the link back to the parent, that should eliminate most of ti
19:15	jbondeson	-ti+it
19:32	slashus2	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=68 <-- What do you think of the patch I submitted?
19:35	hiredman	uh
19:35	hiredman	nil is false in clojure
19:35	slashus2	I tried :-(
19:35	jbondeson	if you're in a dosync do you have access to the values of other refs you just set?
19:35	hiredman	the boolean values true and false only exist in clojure for java interop
19:36	hiredman	,(doc deref)
19:36	clojurebot	"([ref]); Also reader macro: @ref/@agent/@var/@atom/@delay/@future. Within a transaction, returns the in-transaction-value of ref, else returns the most-recently-committed value of ref. When applied to a var, agent or atom, returns its current state. When applied to a delay, forces it if not already forced. When applied to a future, will block if computation not complete"
19:36	jbondeson	hah
19:36	slashus2	hiredman: I did it for consistency. The function returns false for most every other case, but in the case he showed it returned nil.
19:36	slashus2	,(every? (fn [x] (> x 6)) [1 2 3])
19:36	clojurebot	false
19:37	hiredman	,(> 1 6)
19:37	clojurebot	false
19:37	slashus2	Yes that is correct
19:37	hiredman	it depends on the predicate
19:37	slashus2	,(every? #{\space} "dam")
19:37	clojurebot	nil
19:37	hiredman	,(#{1} 0)
19:37	clojurebot	nil
19:37	slashus2	My version just returns false in that case too.
19:38	hiredman	,(every? #(= % \space) "dam")
19:38	clojurebot	false
19:38	hiredman	slashus2: I don't see any point
19:38	hiredman	but, who am I to say
19:39	slashus2	I guess my version makes it work with sets too.
19:39	hiredman	it already works with sets
19:39	slashus2	I mean, return false with sets, not nil.
19:40	slashus2	Even though that are equivalent.
19:42	hiredman	if anything I would change > and friends to return nil
19:43	slashus2	So we actually are shooting for everything to return nil?
19:43	slashus2	Within the core?
19:46	technomancy	hah; you can use add-classpath with URLs.
19:46	technomancy	this is crazy + awesome: http://clj-me.blogspot.com/2009/01/living-on-bleeding-edge.html
19:49	slashus2	That is neat.
19:50	jbondeson	technomancy: yeah, they found that a while ago. don't think i'd ever do it though.
19:51	technomancy	jbondeson: reminds me of the hobix installation instructions: ruby -ropen-uri -e 'eval(open("http://go.hobix.com/").read)'
19:51	technomancy	you have to be at least a little crazy to try that
19:51	jbondeson	yeeaaaah
19:52	jbondeson	from 298MB to 1.3MB!
20:03	slashus2	I was playing around with clojure, and openjdk crashed. Oh my.
20:03	slashus2	When I try to run java now, it gives me a strange message about saying that it could not determine my current working directory.
20:08	technomancy	slashus2: maybe cd .
20:08	slashus2	technomancy: It worked again after I changed the directory.
20:30	powr-toc	slashus2: are you on a network drive, like NFS?
20:30	slashus2	no
20:31	powr-toc	slashus2: are you in a directory which has been removed and then recreated?
20:34	slashus2	powr-toc: When java crashed, it started saying that problem. It fixed it when I changed directories and back again.
20:35	Chouser	jkantz: yes, error-kit would behave similarly.
20:36	Chouser	as would try/catch blocks, I believe.
20:36	powr-toc	slashus2: odd... you some systems give you errors like that when your terminal/program is running in a directory which has been deleted and rebuilt... you get it quite a bit with build scripts
20:39	slashus2	powr-toc: It was a segfault in openjdk.
20:39	Chouser	,(try (lazy-cat [1 2] (throw (Exception. "foo"))) (catch Exception e "caught"))
20:39	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:39	Chouser	oh, he doesn't let you do try/catch
20:40	Chouser	anyway, that fails to catch the exception because it's not thrown until the seq is being printed, outside of the 'try' block
20:42	cemerick	wow, those c.l.l folks really know how to throw a party (re: the 'road to clojure' thread)
20:42	hiredman	clojurebot: lazy?
20:42	clojurebot	lazy is hard
20:42	Chouser	I guess throwing an exception can be thought of as a kind of side-effect.
20:43	cemerick	I'm so happy that #clojure and the group are so pleasant.
20:45	Chouser	cemerick: yes
21:38	talios	Does anyone know if the clojure compiler can generate jdk annotations on a method/class?
21:39	Chouser	I believe it currently cannot.
21:40	talios	:( Pity, that could be in handy.
21:41	talios	er, darn my thought patterns, -be+come :)
21:43	Chouser	it comes up. I guess I should learn what they are.
21:44	talios	compile/runtime metadata for java classes. Such as say "@Test public void thisIsATestMethod() {...}" - other code can look for methods that have the @Test annotation.
21:44	talios	java classes/fields/methods that is.
21:51	danlei	b
21:54	gnuvince_	Oh ZING! http://www.lispcast.com/why-clojure.html
21:54	gnuvince_	c.l.l is gonna have a field trip with that :)
21:56	Chouser	succinct
21:58	danlarkin	gentoo.org isn't responding for me, but downforeveryoneorjustme.com says it's up, can everyone else hit it?
21:59	gnuvince_	Funnily, people on reddit call him "fanatic". If he'd written "Subversion is a dead end. I want to be a part of Git's bright future", redditors would've fallen over themselves to agree with him
21:59	Chouser	danlarkin: "Waiting for www.gentoo.org..."
21:59	icey	gnuvince_: the problem with the herd mentality is that it requires many many sheep ;)
22:00	talios	baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:00	danlarkin	Chouser, danlei: ok thanks, at least it isn't just me
22:01	gnuvince_	icey: yeah
22:01	danlarkin	gnuvince_: is this post on reddit yet? or at you saying in general they call him a fanatic
22:01	gnuvince_	danlarkin: it is, but downvoted enough that it's not on the front page
22:01	gnuvince_	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7zyla/i_want_to_be_a_part_of_clojures_bright_future/
22:02	danlei	personally, i'd say: if cl is a dead end, then a very flexible one.
22:03	gnuvince_	awww, not mentioned on cll :)
22:04	icey	cll is a waste of time
22:04	danlei	i don't think so
22:04	danlei	i like them both (cl & clojure)
22:04	icey	CL is not a waste of time. the newsgroup is
22:04	danlei	ups
22:05	icey	there are clearly very very smart people there, but the problem is they have too much time on their hands so they troll ;)
22:06	stuarthalloway	evening all
22:06	icey	evening stuarthalloway
22:06	stuarthalloway	I am updating the sequences chapter and am hoping to get some feedback on the following nouns: seq, sequence, iseq
22:06	icey	how goes the book?
22:07	stuarthalloway	Having read through mail and IRC logs, I want to define them as follows:
22:07	danlei`	but sometimes it's also a good place to learn. rich, for example, was very patient and informative during the discussion with pascal.
22:08	stuarthalloway	a seq (noun) is an abstract view of a collection, and is represented internally as an ISeq
22:08	stuarthalloway	a seq (function) returns a seq (noun) on a collection, or nil if nil/empty
22:09	stuarthalloway	a collection that can be seq-ed is said to be seq-able (that should be any collection!)
22:09	icey	danlei`: sure, but for every good thread there are 3 posts about removing parens, 2 posts about someone's CS homework, a Xah Lee diatribe, Jon Harrop coming in to talk about F# and then a series of posts where Kenny Tilton talks about how he got Cells (tm) to work on his toaster oven.
22:09	stuarthalloway	a sequence is a seq-able collection
22:10	danlei`	icey: yes, the frogger, xah, jillian etc. can be really annoying ...
22:10	stuarthalloway	I know this all sounds pedantic, but it is important to nail this stuff down for beginners
22:10	hiredman	there is a sequence function too btw
22:10	Chouser	stuarthalloway: it is important. thanks for pursuing it.
22:10	icey	stuarthalloway: guys like me really appreciate it :D
22:11	stuarthalloway	hiredman: aaargh! :-)
22:12	Chouser	oh, I didn't know about that.
22:12	hiredman	I dunno if it is a useful function, but rhicky obviously thinks it is
22:13	stuarthalloway	hiredman: I can see where it might be useful
22:13	stuarthalloway	but it totally screws up the definitions I just laid out
22:13	stuarthalloway	without even invalidating them ....
22:14	stuarthalloway	given the definitions I proposed, sequence (function) ought to be named seq
22:14	stuarthalloway	but of course that is already taken!
22:15	stuarthalloway	maybe sequence could be renamed as-seq or something like that -- is there any naming idiom for coercion?
22:15	hiredman	well, (sequence ...) can return an emtpy ISeq
22:15	hiredman	which (seq ...) cannot
22:16	Chouser	stuarthalloway: yeah, just the name of the type. (int 5) (float 3.0)
22:16	Chouser	(seq ...)
22:16	stuarthalloway	Chouser: so seq is a doubly-bad name, since it returns nil when the coercion fails :-)
22:17	hiredman	,(seq 2)
22:17	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
22:17	hiredman	doesn't look like nil to me
22:17	stuarthalloway	,(seq [])
22:17	clojurebot	nil
22:17	hiredman	that is not failure
22:18	stuarthalloway	hiredman: point taken, but
22:18	danlei	you'll need it for conditionals
22:18	stuarthalloway	(backing up) I see the need for all the functions
22:19	stuarthalloway	it is the names that kill me
22:19	stuarthalloway	() is a legal seq
22:19	stuarthalloway	so if seq coerces, then (seq ()) === ()
22:19	stuarthalloway	,(seq ())
22:19	clojurebot	nil
22:20	hiredman	the docstring of seq says nothing about coercetion
22:20	hiredman	sequene on the other hand does
22:20	hiredman	sequence
22:20	hiredman	,(doc seq)
22:20	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq on the collection. If the collection is empty, returns nil. (seq nil) returns nil. seq also works on Strings, native Java arrays (of reference types) and any objects that implement Iterable."
22:21	Chouser	ISeq no longer promises non-emptiness, but 'seq' still does.
22:21	stuarthalloway	hiredman: exactly! sequence coerces to seq, and seq doesn't coerce. Confusing!
22:21	stuarthalloway	especially when sequence is a noun that (used to?) mean something
22:22	hiredman	we should start capitalizing types
22:22	stuarthalloway	Clojure defines many algorithms in terms of sequences (seqs). (http://clojure.org/sequences)
22:22	hiredman	sequence returns a Sequence
22:22	hiredman	or Seq
22:23	Chouser	There is no Sequence
22:23	Chouser	ASeq, ISeq, Sequential
22:23	hiredman	Chouser: I just magicked one
22:23	stuarthalloway	If ISeq and seq (noun) are 100% equivalent, then we could say ISeq and stop using seq as a noun
22:24	hiredman	stuarthalloway: makes sense to me
22:24	Chouser	Except that colloqually, we often say seq when we mean "ISeq or nil"
22:25	Chouser	hm, we used to anyway.
22:25	Chouser	filter returns
22:25	Chouser	"filter returns a seq"
22:25	stuarthalloway	Chouser: well, and in that case seq (function) is a legit coercion to seq (noun)
22:25	stuarthalloway	it seems to me that seq (noun) as currently used cannot be nil
22:26	stuarthalloway	seqs can be empty / always an ISeq (http://clojure.org/lazy)
22:26	danlei	stuarthalloway: Changed: seqs can be empty
22:26	danlei	stuarthalloway: so i guess, you're right
22:26	stuarthalloway	Me right == bad thing. I'm confused. :-)
22:27	stuarthalloway	so far I am still happy with the definitions I threw out 20 minutes ago
22:27	danlei	i'm working through the recent changes, too :)
22:28	stuarthalloway	if the (new?) sequence function could only have a different name
22:28	stuarthalloway	maybe (iseq ...)
22:28	hiredman	well
22:29	Chouser	stuarthalloway: you might be able to make that happen -- it's pretty new.
22:30	Raynes	(doc new)
22:30	Raynes	(doc new?)
22:30	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:30	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:30	Raynes	Just had to.
22:30	stuarthalloway	if sequence and seq remain synonyms, all is well
22:30	stuarthalloway	and the name sequence is just fine with me
22:30	stuarthalloway	(for the new fn, that is)
22:33	mblinn	if you've got a file full of functions that you load into the repl, is there a way to use a function before it's defined?
22:34	danlei	,(doc declare)
22:34	clojurebot	"([& names]); defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations."
22:34	hiredman	^-
22:34	mblinn	thanks
22:40	stuarthalloway	I posted my seq/ISeq/sequence thoughts to the list and am going to bed. cya.
22:49	hiredman	clojurebot: twitteronia is where shaq lives
22:49	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
23:11	technomancy	so java.util.Calendar is kind of a higher-level java.util.Date?
23:13	hiredman	should clojurebot notify the channel of tweets mentioning clojure?
23:15	technomancy	that seems like it could go overboard quickly
23:16	hiredman	I guess
23:16	technomancy	it looks like there've been twenty in the last twenty hours
23:16	technomancy	and it's only going to accelerate
23:20	niet	can clojure have stack overflows because of laziness like haskell? or clojure doesnt have that kind of laziness?
23:30	technomancy	clojure can have stack overflows if you use regular recursion instead of explicit recur for large data structures, lazy or not
23:33	hiredman	clojure's laziness is much more explicit then haskell's
23:35	niet	it seems so
23:36	niet	but i mean can tailrecursive (loop/recurs) cause stack overflow due to laziness?
23:36	technomancy	say you've got a vector of numbers. how would you add N to the Mth element?
23:36	hiredman	no
23:36	hiredman	loop/recur is not lazy
23:37	hiredman	,(update-in [1 2 3] [1] inc)
23:37	clojurebot	[1 3 3]
23:37	hiredman	that is how
23:39	technomancy	hiredman: sweet; thanks
23:39	hiredman	,((fn [v m n] (update-in v [m] (partial + n))) [1 2 3] 1 3)
23:39	clojurebot	[1 5 3]
23:41	hiredman	np
23:46	hiredman	,(last (take 4 (iterate list '())))
23:46	clojurebot	(((())))