#clojure – 2009-02-22

2009-02-22

00:25	digash`	attribute filtering is broken in xml.clj
00:25	digash`	not sure what the problem is
00:25	digash`	just broke with the new lazy patches
00:25	digash`	; attribute filtering
00:25	digash`	(assert (= (xml-> atom1 :link [(attr= :rel "alternate")] (attr :type))
00:25	digash`	'("text/html")))
00:26	digash`	throws exception with NullPointer.
00:32	lisppaste8	digash` pasted "assert error in zip-filter" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75949
00:32	blbrown	is there a formal way to report bugs. I am assuming emails the google groups is not always the best
02:55	te	'lo
03:36	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents
04:44	Lau_of_DK	When I fire up gen-class with this arg :constructors {[String com.jme.scene.Node] []}) Doesnt that mean, that my class will require a String. and a Node. when constructed?
04:51	Lau_of_DK	Ok - Better question, is there a java-call I can make to my class, which will show me the contructors requirements?
05:52	alinp	hi
05:52	alinp	is there a way to call "time" function from java env ?
05:53	alinp	and I don't mean by calling clojure env
05:53	alinp	time function have some java method/class associated ?
05:54	alinp	~doc time
05:54	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
05:54	alinp	,(doc time)
05:54	clojurebot	"([expr]); Evaluates expr and prints the time it took. Returns the value of expr."
06:47	Lau_of_DK	Why is it - That when I want to use an enumerator from a class, I have to use its fully qualified name ?, ie
06:47	Lau_of_DK	(import '(com.jme.image Texture))
06:47	Lau_of_DK	nil
06:47	Lau_of_DK	com.jme.image.Texture$Enum1/field1
06:47	Lau_of_DK	<value returned>
06:47	Lau_of_DK	Texture$Enum1/field1
06:47	Lau_of_DK	Exception
06:47	Lau_of_DK	Why is that?
07:11	AWizzArd	Lau, after you did that import, what happens if you just type Texture in the repl?
07:26	Chouser	(import '(com.jme.image Texture$Enum1))
07:35	AWizzArd	btw, are delay and future now basically the same, only that a future will run in its own thread?
07:36	AWizzArd	(and also run immediately, while a delay will run lazily)
07:36	Chouser	I think that's right. Not a trivial difference.
07:36	AWizzArd	ok
07:38	Lau_of_DK	Thanks Chouser :)
07:39	Lau_of_DK	I've updated the project Wiki, so you guys can see when it gets interestined (ie. not yet) http://wiki.github.com/Lau-of-DK/sofiaba
07:39	Lau_of_DK	...with screenshots
07:39	Chouser	cool
08:28	wlr	AWizzArd: recently you were interested in bit-twiddling. i stumbled upon http://java.sys-con.com/node/847250 haven't read it myself yet, though.
08:40	Vargr_	(possibly) stupid question: When I start clojure in an inferior-lisp with slime, I should be able to attach to that port with JSwat, no?
08:45	kotarak	Vargr_: I figure, it depends on how you start the java instance.
09:14	StartsWithK	what should i use if i want to walk, transform and exctract parts of the form?
09:15	StartsWithK	so form could contain list, vector and map literals
09:15	StartsWithK	is there anything i can use for that right now?
09:17	Vargr_	kotarak: why, do I need to observe something special here?
09:19	kotarak	Vargr_: I'm not very familiar with Java (coming from Scheme), but there is a debug option, when starting java, which (as I understand) allows you to connect a debugger. So I'm not sure, that you can connect the debugger, when you don't give the necessary options, when starting the java instance.
09:20	Vargr_	kotarak: oups, seems I've been trying to connect to swank then :)
09:22	kotarak	Vargr_: so I don't know anything about SLIME and swank. :)
09:23	Lau_of_DK	Ola mon kotarak ! :)
09:23	kotarak	StartsWithK: there is walk in clojure.contrib by Stuart Sierra.
09:23	kotarak	Hi Lau_of_DK
09:23	Vargr_	thanks for the help anyway, kotarak
09:23	Lau_of_DK	Kota, you'll enjoy this in a few years :) http://wiki.github.com/Lau-of-DK/sofiaba
09:24	StartsWithK	Let me sketch, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/104912/
09:24	StartsWithK	kotarak: i looked at it, but can't find any way to extract something, just transform in place
09:25	StartsWithK	and when i find :id id1 pattern, i want to go back to (mymacro expr) and replace it with (mymacro id1), where :id id1 could be anywhere in body of mymacro
09:28	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: ui. Are you working on this?
09:29	Lau_of_DK	ui?
09:29	StartsWithK	Lau_of_DK: you switched from jogl to jme? hows that working?
09:30	kotarak	Lau_of_DK: "ui" a sound like "ah" or "oh"
09:30	Lau_of_DK	ah
09:30	Lau_of_DK	StartsWithK: They're worlds apart - Not going back to jogl :)
09:30	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: Yea - Sofia had a kick out of just switching screensavers on my laptop - So I thought I'd make a fun 3d game for her, figured the rest of you might like the 3D bindings
09:31	StartsWithK	Lau_of_DK: heh, just couple of day ago i started to do experiments with it too :) small world
09:31	kotarak	hehe :)
09:31	Lau_of_DK	Its a classic: Slam the keyboard = Fun effects and responses in the environment, type game
09:32	StartsWithK	had some problems placing jmecanvas and displaying swing menus around it
09:32	Lau_of_DK	Which superclass did you go with ?
09:32	StartsWithK	SimpleCanvasImpl
09:33	Lau_of_DK	Oh ok - Never heard of it
09:33	StartsWithK	with JOGLAWTCanvasConstructor
09:33	Lau_of_DK	I went with BaseGame, good for fullscreen 3D games - Sounded like something Sofia would enjoy :)
09:34	Lau_of_DK	So far, Ive got the world drawn up, and you can fly around in it, thats it
09:34	StartsWithK	i needed more 'application' look, with swing components around canvas
09:34	Lau_of_DK	Also made some functions for loading resources quite easily
09:34	StartsWithK	resize still dosn't work :)
09:34	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, gotta run - Will probably be back tonight
09:35	StartsWithK	so.. any ideas how i could transform firs form in the one inside (let ..)
09:35	StartsWithK	is there something like, xslt for clojure form :)
10:33	digash`	anybody going to ILC2009?
11:21	Chouser	digash`: yep
11:34	MarkVolkmann	I'm trying to understand the claim that using alter to change a Ref is more efficient than dereferencing, computing a new value, and using ref-set.
11:35	MarkVolkmann	It seems to me this isn't a matter of efficient, just ease of coding.
11:35	MarkVolkmann	If two threads are simultaneously trying to change the same ref in different transactions, with either approach, one of them is going to retry their transaction.
11:36	MarkVolkmann	Am I missing something?
11:39	rhickey	MarkVolkmann: who made that claim?
11:40	MarkVolkmann	It's in Stuart's book ... page 180 of the latest PDF.
11:41	MarkVolkmann	Is there a benefit to using alter instead of directly coding the three steps it comprises other than making the code simpler ... which is a good enough reason on its own.
11:43	rhickey	I don't see "more efficient" there, but "less contentious" is also not correct
11:44	rhickey	MarkVolkmann: alter is by far preferred
11:49	MarkVolkmann	The line I'm looking at on page 180 of beta 7 says "The naive approach works, but it is inefficient."
11:49	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Have you considered updating the gen-class documentation on clojure.org? I'll start pulling out my hair soon if you dont :)
11:50	MarkVolkmann	The three-step naive approach appears just above that sentence.
11:51	rhickey	MarkVolkmann: ah, please report to Stu
11:51	MarkVolkmann	Okay, I will. Thanks!
11:52	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: (doc gen-class) for now
11:53	Lau_of_DK	oh wait no - there's good stuff in that doc actually
11:53	Lau_of_DK	I'll read it - I thought it would be a slimmed down version of whats on the site :)
12:15	digash`	Chouser: where do i report bugs for contrib packages.
12:15	digash`	?
12:16	Chouser	digash`: the regular Clojure google group.
12:16	digash`	Chouser: ok, thanks, I will send it there.
12:37	Chouser	,(import '(java.util GregorianCalendar Calendar))
12:37	clojurebot	nil
12:37	Chouser	,(.compareTo (GregorianCalendar.) (.add (GregorianCalendar.) Calendar/DAY_OF_MONTH 5))
12:37	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
12:37	Chouser	what am I doing wrong here?
12:37	Chouser	(.compareTo (GregorianCalendar.) (.roll (GregorianCalendar.) Calendar/DAY_OF_MONTH 5))
12:37	Chouser	,(.compareTo (GregorianCalendar.) (.roll (GregorianCalendar.) Calendar/DAY_OF_MONTH 5))
12:37	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
12:44	AWizzArd	,(conj #{5} #{1 2 3})
12:44	clojurebot	#{5 #{1 2 3}}
12:44	AWizzArd	,(conj #{1 2 3} #{5})
12:44	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 #{5}}
12:44	AWizzArd	,(conj 5 #{1 2 3})
12:44	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
12:44	AWizzArd	hmm
12:45	Chouser	add() desn't return the calendar. sigh
12:45	Chouser	,(conj #{1 2 3} 5)
12:45	clojurebot	#{1 2 3 5}
12:45	AWizzArd	Chouser: yeah, that i sone of the not so beautiful things of the JVM. Some methods just return nil
12:45	Chouser	,(.before (GregorianCalendar.) (doto (GregorianCalendar.) (.add Calendar/DAY_OF_MONTH 5)))
12:45	clojurebot	true
12:47	Chouser	unfortunately, in this case it's probably the right thing to do, short of making the objects immutable.
12:47	Chouser	sure helps you remember you're mutating a thing, not getting a new object.
12:49	AWizzArd	yes
12:51	MarkVolkmann	A question about transaction retries ...
12:51	MarkVolkmann	I understand a transaction will retry if it attempts to modify a Ref that was modified by another thread since the current transaction began.
12:52	MarkVolkmann	Does the retry automatically wait until that other transaction completes before trying again?
12:53	kotarak	MarkVolkmann: I think, the transaction sees the modified value only after the other transaction completed.
12:54	MarkVolkmann	Right, it doesn't see the other value, but it does not that another transaction changed it and that's why it retries.
12:54	MarkVolkmann	My question is whether the retry begins as soon as it sees that situation or does it wait until that other transaction either commits or rolls back.
12:55	kotarak	MarkVolkmann: I don't think so. My understanding is, that the first transaction completes, and the another thread (which changed the ref) retries.
12:55	MarkVolkmann	Based on some test code I wrote it seems that it waits for the other transaction to finish. I just want to confirm that.
12:55	digash	Chouser: sorry about the noise about the bug, just did not fully sync up lazy branch with contribs.
12:56	Chouser	digash: ok, glad it's resolved.
12:56	MarkVolkmann	I think if two transactions try to change the same Ref, the first one that does it gets to finish and the other one retries ... but not until the first one finishes. I'd like to have someone confirm this though.
12:58	Chouser	I'm still too unskilled at reading the code in LockingTransaction.java
12:59	kotarak	MarkVolkmann: ok. I'm not that deep in the STM, but I got the impression, that the transactions are independent in the sense, that there is no "the first one gets it". Each transaction sees its value. And although the value might be changed in the transaction, if the other one commits first, this one has to try again. No matter which "first" changed the Ref.
13:06	AWizzArd	btw, why is there now a clojure-sources.jar? Is that for my classpath, so that debuggers like jswat can access all Clojure code?
13:08	MarkVolkmann	Okay, I just verified that my guess was wrong.
13:08	MarkVolkmann	When a transaction restarts, it does not wait until other transactions whose changes made it restart complete.
13:09	MarkVolkmann	It tries to make it's changes again, restarts again, over and over until it succeeds.
13:09	MarkVolkmann	It's seems like not doing this may be a nice optimization ... unless I'm missing an important detail.
13:10	AWizzArd	kotarak: about your assumption "I think, the transaction sees the modified value only after the other transaction completed". rhickey told me some time ago that Clojure is semi-optimistic, and not fully. So it will not wait until the end of the transaction, but look from time to time if it makes sense to continue the transaction.
13:12	AWizzArd	MarkVolkmann: I would say that a transaction does not wait for others to finish.
13:12	MarkVolkmann	Yeah, that's what I see in the results of my sample code.
13:12	AWizzArd	They all try concurrently to change the object, semi-optimistically.
13:12	AWizzArd	oh ok
13:12	kotarak	AWizzArd: ok. As I said: in only got "impressions" and don't know the nitty-gritty
13:12	AWizzArd	kotarak: yes
13:13	MarkVolkmann	This really illustrates the difference between using alter and commute.
13:13	AWizzArd	how?
13:14	MarkVolkmann	commute just keeps going through the transaction, modifying the in-transaction values even though another transaction has changed them. Then at the end of the transaction it reapplies the update functions using the last committed values.
13:15	MarkVolkmann	In the output of my sample code, I can see lots of retries when I used alter, but not when I use commute.
13:16	AWizzArd	so commute will not retry as often?
13:17	slashus2	Order doesn't matter.
13:18	MarkVolkmann	It seem to me commute will never retry. It will just use in-transaction values. The key point is that at the end of the transaction after it has decided to commit, it will call all the update functions again to ensure that their updates are based on the latest committed values, not in-transaction values.
13:19	MarkVolkmann	Someone please correct me if I've saying something wrong!
13:19	slashus2	The order that you call the commutes in the transaction doesn't matter?
13:20	MarkVolkmann	I don't know about that. I think it does. My point is that what is happening in other transactions that modify the same Refs doesn't seem to matter until the commit point.
13:21	MarkVolkmann	That's when it calls all the update functions a second time.
13:21	MarkVolkmann	... using last committed values instead of in-transaction values.
13:25	Chouser	right, commutes never cause a retry.
13:26	Chouser	the function given to a commute is always called twice -- once to get the in-transaction value, once to get the commit value.
13:29	AWizzArd	hmm
13:30	AWizzArd	but couldn't it be possible that some changes were made that make the commute superfluous?
13:31	AWizzArd	If it does not rerun the transaction, it can not find out if this is the case
13:33	AWizzArd	Maybe commute is simply the wrong thing for transactions like that
13:34	AWizzArd	for example for transferring money from one account to another (money in an online game, whatever). If one account is empty then no transfer should happen. But the if that checks for the balance is on top of the transaction.
13:35	AWizzArd	MarkVolkmann: anyway, good point, thanks for your test
13:36	MarkVolkmann	Sure!
13:37	AWizzArd	MarkVolkmann: have a look into your private messages
13:46	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
13:50	danlarkin	hey what's a quick way to get an NPE? I'm testing my exception reporting
13:50	Chouser	,(nil)
13:50	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil
13:50	Chouser	oh
13:50	rhickey	(.foo nil)
13:51	danlarkin	gracias
14:46	leafw	the webpage needs updating: clojure.org/lazy says "(Note: this section describes work in progress, currently only available in the lazy branch of SVN)"
14:47	cgray	hi, is there a modulo function that's convenient to use?
14:47	redalastor	cgray: rem
14:48	gnuvince_	,(rem 5 2)
14:48	clojurebot	1
14:48	rhickey	leafw: updated, thanks
14:48	cgray	redalastor: thanks
14:48	leafw	you're welcome.
14:48	Chouser	,(mod 5 2)
14:48	clojurebot	1
14:49	cgray	i tried mod...
14:49	Chouser	cgray: it's more recently added than rem
14:49	cgray	i wonder why it didn't work for me
14:51	leafw	does doseq hold onto the head of a sequence?
14:51	Chouser	it shouldn't
14:51	leafw	ok.
14:53	leafw	so (doseq [i coll] ...) is the same as (loop [c coll] (if coll (do ..<use (first coll)>. (recur (rest coll)))))
14:55	Chouser	next not rest. you could macroexpand.
14:57	leafw	sorry, still on pre-lazy merge.
14:58	Chouser	ah. well, macroexpand should still work. :-)
15:00	leafw	Chouser: it does, but it shows ... lots of gutter
15:00	leafw	,(macroexpand-1 '(doseq [i (range 5)] (println i)))
15:00	clojurebot	(clojure.core/loop [sq__3897__auto__ (clojure.core/seq (range 5))] (clojure.core/when sq__3897__auto__ (clojure.core/let [i (clojure.core/first sq__3897__auto__)] (clojure.core/when true (clojure.core/when true (do (println i))) (recur (clojure.core/next sq__3897__auto__))))))
15:00	leafw	notice the double when true when true.
15:00	leafw	is that really needed?
15:01	leafw	i.e. I don't understand why it's there.
15:02	Chouser	leafw: that's just to make the macro itself simpler. hotspot should get rid of the extra work in short order.
15:02	leafw	what does "in short order" mean?
15:03	leafw	I am sure the doseq macro handles much more cases than the simple one above.
15:05	danlarkin	Hm. this is throwing the LazySeq used in 'if' exception: (if-let [result (context (keyword k))] ...)
15:05	Chouser	leafw: I mean that it is easy for hotspot to optimize away constant tests like that, so very few iterations should be necessary for it to catch on.
15:06	danlarkin	context is a hash-map and k is a string
15:06	Chouser	leafw: yes, those extra tests are for supporting the :when and :while options.
15:06	leafw	thanks.
15:07	Chouser	danlarkin: and the value is a lazy seq? :-)
15:09	danlarkin	Chouser: Hm, yup that's the problem
15:10	danlarkin	I can't run (seq ...) on it though, since it isn't necessarily a sequential structure
15:11	Chouser	sometimes it's a lazy-seq and sometimes it's something else?
15:11	danlarkin	correct
15:12	rhickey	then how is the if-let correct?
15:13	danlarkin	not sure what you mean? I suppose it isn't correct, since it can end up testing for truth on a lazy seq
15:15	rhickey	danlarkin: if it's a "I have something or not (nil)" scenario then this is a false positive, since even an empty lazy seq is something
15:15	rhickey	you don't need to fix it, but it won't work with the flag on
15:17	Chouser	pre-lazier it might have been correct, I suppose -- true if a non-empty seq or something else
15:17	danlarkin	lisppaste8: url
15:17	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
15:17	rhickey	I think it's still correct, not all tests of lazy seqs are wrong
15:18	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: What criteria do you use to pick between proxy and gen-class?
15:19	rhickey	The whole point of () != false is to distinguish an empty thing from nothing, so a something/nothing detector is valid for lazy-seqs - not nothing
15:19	lisppaste8	danlarkin pasted "if-let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75976
15:20	Chouser	yes, the assert can definitely fire in cases that are actually correct.
15:20	danlarkin	so with assert-if-lazy-seq on that throws the warning, but is it actually correct?
15:20	rhickey	danlarkin: right, you want to see if there's something at key :foo
15:22	danlarkin	okay then, good to know
15:22	rhickey	it's not code that tested for empty with sequence return directly, the wrongness comes from your intent with if - is it if-there-is-a-colelction or if-non-empty-collection?
15:24	danlarkin	well the value for the key can be anything, including a lazy seq
15:24	Chouser	(map #(if % :a :b) [1 (map identity [2]) (map identity [])])
15:25	Chouser	that used to return [:a :a :b], and would now return [:a :a :a]
15:25	Chouser	I think.
15:26	rhickey	right, if you want emptiness test you need seq
15:26	Chouser	that's pretty contrived, but to get the old behavior now would take a few more words
15:29	Chouser	#(if (if (coll? %) (seq %) %) :a :b)
15:30	rhickey	Chouser: if that's really the intent they should seq the map results
15:32	lisppaste8	danlarkin annotated #75976 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75976#1
15:32	Chouser	ah, good point.
15:32	danlarkin	okay, I can rewrite it that way and avoid this issue
15:32	xoox	Is there a predicate that always returns true?
15:32	Chouser	(constantly true)
15:32	xoox	thanks
15:34	Chouser	what are the possible value types of 'context'?
15:34	Chouser	really anything?
15:34	danlarkin	it's user supplied, so anything
15:35	danlarkin	this is library code
15:35	Chouser	and you need to accept lazy seqs and force them yourself to find out if they're empty, rather than requiring the user to force them?
15:35	Chouser	and yet treat other empty collections as true?
15:37	danlarkin	heh, all this code needs to do is first check if (keyword k) is in the map and if it is, return that -- otherwise return (context k)
15:39	Chouser	(contains? context k)
15:39	Lau_of_DK	Guys - Which criteria do you use to pick between proxy and gen-class? It seems to me theres a big overlap of functionality
15:40	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: proxy
15:40	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: I use proxy whenever I can, as I'm sure you've gathered.
15:41	danlarkin	Chouser: oh yes, contains? is (basically) what I used in my annotation. I used some... didn't realize contains? was in core now
15:41	Lau_of_DK	rich normally Im impressed by how concise you can be - but this time you took it too far :)
15:41	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: And I want to follow that example, but I dont want to write a full proxy extension of a class to find out I should have gone with gen-class, so I need more info :)
15:41	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: if proxy meets the need, use it
15:42	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: gen-class only if I absolutely need to add a method, get a specifically-named class, or access protected members of the superclass.
15:42	Lau_of_DK	Ok, so if you just need a class, built on a superclass, but which has custom fields and methods, you'd go with proxy ?
15:43	Chouser	I've been intending to poke around inside proxy and see if it's really impossible to have it allow access to protected members.
15:43	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: proxy can't add members beyond what the superclasses or interfaced define.
15:44	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: I just realized that my question was partly spawned from a naive intention of just directly porting java code, when Clojure actually provides a better alternative
15:45	Chouser	yeah, that's common when dealing with both proxy and gen-class.
15:45	Lau_of_DK	:)
15:45	Chouser	i've got a blog entry percolating about some techniques for moving Java idioms to clojure ones.
15:45	Lau_of_DK	This is where binding JMonkeyEngine will be interesting though - to see how much of it I can wrap in Clojurecode
15:45	Chouser	especially as found in Java library examples
15:45	Lau_of_DK	Cool - I really need to hook up some RSS to your blog
15:47	Chouser	"percolating" is code for "I'll probably never get around to it"
15:48	Lau_of_DK	oh...
15:48	Chouser	I've had a blog entry comparing iterator constructs in several languages for a few years now
15:48	Lau_of_DK	cough geek cough
15:48	Lau_of_DK	Try reading that sentense out loud Chris :)
15:49	Chouser	percolating
15:49	Chouser	that word belongs in there somewhere.
15:49	gnuvince_	Does anyone know of a blog post/article that would help people understand closures if they've never used them before?
15:55	ayrnieu	I'd go with http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap2.html
15:56	digash	what is the best way to store jvm/global state?
15:57	digash	like i have an external sensors which I cannot access more often than ten times per second
15:57	digash	so where do i store last-access-time?
15:58	ayrnieu	throttle the access through an agent.
15:59	digash	interesting, is there some example somewhere? i am not familiar with agents.
15:59	Bracki	cooldude127: Thx for your improved find-path function.
16:01	Bracki	I must admit though, that the (or (and (not (includes?.. part is hard to graps.
16:01	Bracki	grasp
16:03	Bracki	,(doc declare)
16:03	clojurebot	"([& names]); defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations."
16:03	ayrnieu	digash - not of this; but after you become familiar with agents, it'll be very easy.
16:05	digash	ayrnieu: I dont get it yet, how to use agents to do throttle
16:07	ayrnieu	digash - you have the agent access the external device. It can sleep for a calculated (based on a last-access in its own state) or for a set time, and then access the device. Every request that the agent access the device will be interleaved and, with the agent sleeping, throttled.
16:07	ayrnieu	but actually, I'm thinking like an Erlang programmer. Just use a clojure.
16:08	digash	ayrnieu: i see, use agent like erlang process and send requests to it.
16:09	hiredman	or you could create your own thread pool executor
16:09	hiredman	that executes requests no faster then ten per second
16:11	Chouser	I think ayrnieu's first suggestion sounds good -- and agent that sends to itself to refresh its own state based on the sensor
16:11	ayrnieu	digash - the agent would throttle access even from multiple concurrent askers. If you don't have this, a closure is sufficient.
16:12	Chouser	then all the other code can read the agent value whenever necessary.
16:12	Bracki	Puh, the agent example code is awfully hard to understand.
16:12	ayrnieu	yeah, that's an excellent suggestion.
16:12	ayrnieu	much better than mine :-)
16:27	senxhnsshp	how do I chekc if something is null? nil?
16:27	senxhnsshp	ie a java object
16:27	Chouser	yes, or just use in a boolean context
16:28	Chouser	,(if (new Object) :true :false)
16:28	clojurebot	:true
16:28	Chouser	,(if nil :true :false)
16:28	clojurebot	:false
16:36	digash	ayrnieu: yes, i need to throttle from multiple askers, so that is why clojure is not enough for me.
16:36	digash	closure^
16:38	digash	thanks for the suggestions i will try out the agent, how big is the send queue?
16:41	Bracki	How do I make a :key from a "string"?
16:41	hiredman	,(keyword "string")
16:41	clojurebot	:string
16:44	ayrnieu	digash - use Chouser's suggestion.
16:44	ayrnieu	digash - if it's acceptable to access the external device every 1/10s
16:53	Lau_of_DK	Re gen-class, my :init function, can it accept clojure-types, and when Im told to return 'state', what is meant ?
16:55	hiredman	well, generally, a constructor sets up an initial state for a class
16:56	hiredman	er
16:56	hiredman	object
16:56	AWizzArd	hiredman: can one also have uninitialized objects in Java?
16:56	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: yea...so... whats state?
16:57	hiredman	some kind of state
16:57	Chouser	gen-class classes get a single immutable state field
16:57	hiredman	I think I returned a ref
16:57	hiredman	for state
16:58	Chouser	as named by the :state option
16:58	hiredman	and the ref got put in the state field
16:58	Lau_of_DK	Ah - So why isnt that just returned automatically ?
16:58	Lau_of_DK	Why do I have to do :state name, and then later return name
16:59	hiredman	no
16:59	hiredman	you don't return the name
16:59	hiredman	you return the value to be put in the field
16:59	Lau_of_DK	quote rich: Must return [ [superclass-constructor-args] state]
16:59	Lau_of_DK	If not supplied, the constructor args are passed directly to
16:59	Lau_of_DK	the superclass constructor and the state will be nil
17:00	hiredman	the state field's value will be set to nil
17:01	senxhnsshp	is it normal for just simple GUIs to take sveral hundred lines of code? i made na mp3player using JLayers decoder so I did just the GUI myself(in swing). it has play, stop, shuffle, and some playlist-functions. it is about 400 lines of code...seems a lot althought everything seems necessary
17:01	senxhnsshp	wait around 300 LOC in clojure
17:01	AWizzArd	senxhnsshp: did you write those lines manually?
17:01	senxhnsshp	now a lot of it is just wrapping java so it doesnt mean 1000 loc java but still
17:01	senxhnsshp	yes manually, how else?
17:02	AWizzArd	I did that.
17:02	AWizzArd	Once.
17:02	AWizzArd	Thank you, but, no thanks :)
17:02	AWizzArd	I am now using NetBeans
17:02	AWizzArd	You can download it for free and click your gui together.
17:02	senxhnsshp	ok, and it has a GUI for making GUIs?
17:02	Lau_of_DK	senxhnsshp: Checkout MigLayout
17:02	senxhnsshp	oh nice, lol
17:02	AWizzArd	senxhnsshp: it has maybe the best gui builder available
17:02	AWizzArd	definitly one of the best
17:03	senxhnsshp	im using miglayout
17:07	lisppaste8	bracki pasted "What's wrong with the join function?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75986
17:07	Bracki	First branch of the if statement doesn't work.
17:09	hiredman	Bracki: paste the exception too
17:09	hiredman	or explain what you mean by "doesn't work"
17:09	lisppaste8	bracki annotated #75986 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75986#1
17:10	hiredman	actually
17:10	hiredman	cons needs to be conj
17:10	Bracki	Why?
17:10	Chouser	the first arg of commute needs to be a ref, not a vector
17:11	hiredman	cons takes arguments in a different order then conj
17:11	hiredman	ah
17:11	hiredman	indeed
17:11	pilkarn	doesnt eclispe have somthing similar? i tried netbeans once and hated it. so slow and big
17:12	Bracki	Hm, but isn't that a ref?
17:12	Chouser	channels is a ref
17:12	hiredman	@channels is whatever the ref points to
17:12	Bracki	So I put all the dereferencing after that?
17:13	Chouser	yes
17:13	hiredman	er
17:13	hiredman	no
17:13	Chouser	you might like update-in for that
17:13	hiredman	commute does the deref for you, doesn't it?
17:14	Bracki	But why does this: http://github.com/technomancy/mire/blob/e6c8943d9dd717fdb44654f248a03dcf1d2915d0/src/mire.clj#L18-23 work?
17:14	slashus2	AWizzArd: So you create the GUI part with netbeans, and the rest with clojure?
17:14	Chouser	true, I was thinking he meant the key lookup
17:14	hiredman	,(commute (ref 1) doto prn)
17:14	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/doto
17:14	hiredman	bah
17:15	Bracki	Ah because bloody :inhabitants is a ref as well.
17:15	technomancy	Bracki: which line in particular? there are nested refs
17:16	technomancy	Bracki: if you're going to read the mire source, I'd recommend reading one branch at a time.
17:16	technomancy	the application is written step-by-step where each step builds on the last
17:16	Chouser	Bracki: (commute channels update-in [(keyword channel)] conj user)
17:16	technomancy	and each step is separated into its own branch.
17:16	technomancy	I really need to update the readme to explain that.
17:17	Bracki	I hadn't looked at rooms.clj, I just assumed it to be a vector and not a ref to a vector.
17:18	hiredman	,(pl inc $ inc $ inc $ 0)
17:18	clojurebot	3
17:21	pilkarn	isnt it possibel to use skins for swing guis?
17:33	AWizzArd	senxhnsshp: watch 6 minutes: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/60/java/swing-app-beans-binding-screencast.html
17:33	AWizzArd	you get an impression of what NetBeans can do for your gui
17:34	AWizzArd	(you want to watch it maximized)
17:34	AWizzArd	slashus2: yes, I click my guis together with NetBeans and write the rest in Clojure
17:35	AWizzArd	for example the event handlers
17:38	slashus2	How do you set up the event handlers to use clojure code? Just call clojure methods?
17:40	slashus2	AWizzArd:
17:41	AWizzArd	slashus2: with a proxy
17:44	AWizzArd	In NetBeans I write an export method which returns all objects which I want to touch in Clojure. It's very simple, just a few lines, no thinking needed.
17:45	AWizzArd	In Clojure then I make an instance of the class that NetBeans automatically generated, and call (.export my-frame), to get an array of all the widgets.
17:46	Chouser	AWizzArd: it generates Java source code for you, that you then compile?
17:46	scode	I want to implement a blocking "wait for something to complete" (in this case, wait for some backgroudn I/O to complete). Would it be ideomatic to send-off a blocking function which does a mutex wait, and await? This is assuming there is hidden mutable state that is being waited on.
17:47	Chouser	scode: have you looked at 'future'?
17:48	scode	Chouser: No, not in clojure. Contrib lib?
17:48	CardinalFang	Hi all. I'm trying to piece together a Ant "makefile" to create ahread-of-time compiled class files, which can package and do Stuff with. I'm having trouble with how to do that. I want to use some command-line doo-dad like "javac", which will take .clj and emit .class.
17:48	Chouser	scode: nope, recent addition to core
17:48	Chouser	(doc future)
17:48	clojurebot	Takes a body of expressions and yields a future object that will invoke the body in another thread, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent calls to deref/@. If the computation has not yet finished, calls to deref/@ will block.; arglists ([& body])
17:48	scode	Chouser: Futures would be nice, even if somewhat implicit in this case.
17:48	scode	Chouser: Ah cool. Thanks!
17:49	CardinalFang	...but my thinking may not be at all Lisp-y. Please correct me or suggest something.
17:49	hiredman	CardinalFang: the clojure source tree has a build.xml in it that does AOT compilation, so you should look at that
17:49	CardinalFang	Ooo.
17:50	CardinalFang	"clojure.lang.Compile". Perfect. Thanks for the tip, hiredman.
17:54	scode	Chouser: Btw, any place to figure out that futures got added, other than following svn more closely? Did not see obvious mention on the ML (subject search ;)).
17:55	Bracki	technomancy: If I understand everything correctly, the binding part in mire-handle-client makes the whole thing work right?
17:56	AWizzArd	Chouser: yes, I compile the code in NetBeans. The .class files it generates I then put into my classpath that I set up in emacs. Then I can simply import these NetBeans classes in Clojure. I simple (import ..) will do.
17:57	technomancy	Bracki: the binding part is one of many parts that makes the whole thing work. =)
17:57	technomancy	Bracki: could you be more specific?
17:58	Bracki	Well, I wondered how you associate a user's state with name.
17:58	technomancy	Bracki: ah yes, everything that needs to be thread-local happens in binding.
17:59	Bracki	I had expected that you have to save the connection info for every user somewhere, but this way you don't.
17:59	Lau_of_DK	technomancy: Is SLIME/Swank-clojure up and running with the latest rev. of Clojure?
18:00	technomancy	Lau_of_DK: looks like it.
18:00	Lau_of_DK	cool
18:00	technomancy	Bracki: sure, you "save" it in a binding. but you don't alter anything that already exists.
18:01	technomancy	Bracki: the one exception is that you add each player's out stream to the players map so that players can speak to each other.
18:04	Bracki	technomancy: Can players change their nicks?
18:05	technomancy	Bracki: nope, not without reconnecting
18:05	technomancy	does slime's fuzzy-completion package work with swank-clojure?
18:08	ayrnieu	for another way of doing this, look at chat-serve.clj and its used libraries in http://github.com/ayrnieu/clj-actors/
18:14	Bracki	No, that'll spoil the fun and make my humble attempts seem useless.
18:14	Bracki	But I'll look anyways.
18:18	Bracki	good night.
18:43	MarkVolkmann	I've got a question about root bindings of Vars.
18:43	MarkVolkmann	(def my-var 1) ; gives it a root binding of 1
18:43	MarkVolkmann	Isn't the only way to give it a new root binding, to all def again like this?
18:43	MarkVolkmann	(def my-var 2)
18:44	Chouser	or alter-var-root
18:44	MarkVolkmann	I'm experimenting with watchers.
18:44	MarkVolkmann	They aren't catching that change to the Var.
18:44	Chouser	they will if you use alter-var-root
18:45	MarkVolkmann	But not if I use def?
18:45	Chouser	I think that's correct.
18:45	MarkVolkmann	Thanks! I'll try it.
18:49	MarkVolkmann	If I add a watcher to a Ref and then change the Ref with ref-set two times in a transaction, should the watcher be notified once or twice?
18:49	MarkVolkmann	Maybe just once since the first change is only to the in-transaction value.
18:49	MarkVolkmann	Does that sound right?
18:50	ayrnieu	Mark - the watcher won't be notified until the end of the transaction, as with all sends to agents.
18:54	Chouser	there are changes planned for the watcher api
18:55	Chouser	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=80
18:56	MarkVolkmann	Thanks!
18:56	MarkVolkmann	The web page "Vars and the Global Environment" says this about def:
18:56	MarkVolkmann	"Supplying an initial value binds the root (even if it was already bound)."
18:56	MarkVolkmann	That sounds like it can be used to give a new root value to an existing Var.
18:57	MarkVolkmann	How does it differ from alter-var-root other than than alter-var-root takes an update function?
18:58	Chousuke	maybe alter-var-root is atomic?
18:58	Chousuke	hmm
19:03	Chouser	looking at the code, it appears that both 'def' and 'alter-var-root' should do validation and notify watchers.
19:04	Chouser	that seems to work.
19:05	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: you might try your experiment again
19:07	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "watchers on a Var" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75994
19:12	MarkVolkmann	Thanks!
19:12	MarkVolkmann	I think the issue is the way I'm tracking the changes.
19:13	MarkVolkmann	My agent state is a map where the keys are reference objects and the values counts of the number of times that reference has changed.
19:13	MarkVolkmann	For some reason this works for refs and atoms, but not vars.
19:13	MarkVolkmann	I suspect there is a problem with the way I'm trying to use Var objects as keys.
19:13	MarkVolkmann	Still digging ...
19:13	MarkVolkmann	I sent my code to the mailing list.
19:17	MarkVolkmann	I realize watchers won't get notified about calls to set!, but I'm trying to learn how to call set!.
19:17	MarkVolkmann	It wants a var-symbol, not a var.
19:17	MarkVolkmann	How do I get that?
19:18	Chouser	(def foo 7) (set! foo 42)
19:20	senxhnsshp	hmm does javax.media come with java? because i cant find the jar in clojure-java-jars but i can import it. wodnering if maybe i put it somehwere weird
19:20	MarkVolkmann	That's what I was trying initially. I'm getting IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: my-var with set
19:21	MarkVolkmann	I get the same thing when I run your code example in a REPL.
19:23	Chouser	MarkVolkmann: yes
19:23	Chouser	that's correct
19:23	Chouser	:-)
19:23	MarkVolkmann	Is it clear why that doesn't work?
19:23	Chouser	,(binding [filter 99] (set! filter 7) (prn filter))
19:23	clojurebot	7
19:23	senxhnsshp	how does stuff like RealPlayer and DivX make money?
19:24	Chouser	'set!' is only allowed when a thread-local binding has been created
19:24	MarkVolkmann	Okay, thanks!
19:25	jochu	technomancy: swank-clojure doesn't support fuzzy completion as of yet. It does have compound prefix completion though.
19:26	AWizzArd	hmm, I didn't know about this alter-var-root. Is it new in Clojure? Why are so many side-effectish things added?
19:27	drewr	AWizzArd: I was just thinking that.
19:27	rhickey	AWizzArd: don't use them!
19:28	AWizzArd	I won't. But their existance will be heaven for people coming from imperative languages.
19:28	drewr	...and their demise. Muahaha.
19:31	AWizzArd	I mostly considered def as a defconstant. That one can overwrite it with a new def was only for allowing dynamically evolving the system during runtime, and for administrative purposes.
19:34	Chouser	the naming convention for vars that will be changed with alter-var-root is like: ==>->foo<-<==
19:36	Chouser	consensus by fiat
19:36	AWizzArd	well, the name is of course a bit longer than setf, and it is not as easy to use, but basically it sounds as if Clojure has very easy access to imperative operators now.
19:38	Chouser	it always did, thought Java interop, re-def'ing, etc. We just politely remind people they shouldn't do it every time they ask a question.
19:38	Chouser	eventually they stop asking
19:38	ayrnieu	and Erlang can get()/put() everything, and Haskell and use functionsWithScaryNames
19:39	Chouser	,(let [x (clojure.lang.Box. 7)] (set! (.val x) 42) (.val x))
19:39	clojurebot	42
19:39	AWizzArd	maybe these set!s and alter-var-root things should just disappear, to enforce a less imperative style
19:39	rhickey	yes, Clojure is not generally about prohibition, but rather recipes and ingredients for success
19:39	Chouser	,(let [x (atom 7)] (swap! x inc) @x)
19:39	clojurebot	8
19:40	AWizzArd	the atom approach is different
19:40	Chouser	is it really?
19:40	AWizzArd	it is one of the few explicit constructs for managing state
19:40	Chouser	I mean, it's slightly different, but pretty easy to abuse
19:40	AWizzArd	yes
19:41	AWizzArd	Was nicer when there were only refs and agents
19:41	Chouser	nah
19:41	rhickey	AWizzArd: then just use refs and agents
19:41	ayrnieu	as if you can't abuse refs and agents.
19:41	rhickey	real programs need more, and I'm happy to oblige - I've done a lot of MT programming and I want to make it safe
19:42	Chouser	agents are pretty easy to abuse -- refs a bit harder.
19:42	AWizzArd	rhickey: well, I don't see the problems for myself or my team. We can have an agreement of not using set! or alter-var-root without having a meeting first.
19:42	rhickey	AWizzArd: exactly right
19:42	AWizzArd	ayrnieu: yes, one can abuse anything, it just was very obvious what those constructs are for
19:43	AWizzArd	I am not so convinced that people coming from imperative langauges will also have so strict rules
19:44	rhickey	AWizzArd: all the mutable reference types have the same effect on a program's referential transparency, they only differ in concurrency semantics, all sharing safety
19:45	Chouser	rhickey: do you have any thoughts about printing type hints as propogated by the compiler?
19:45	AWizzArd	rhickey: yes, it's of course safer this way, but still.
19:45	rhickey	printing during compilation?
19:45	AWizzArd	hmm, good idea.. one could have a warning for each set! and each alter-var-root that can not be surpressed
19:45	AWizzArd	that would be a nice thing
19:46	Chouser	rhickey: yeah, I guess. or with a separate step like macroexpand
19:46	rhickey	AWizzArd: sorry, responding to Chouser's q
19:46	Chouser	AWizzArd: cannot be supressed!? yikes
19:46	AWizzArd	:)
19:46	rhickey	Chouser: I think there is a general need amongst tools to access to the analysis tree
19:47	ayrnieu	AWizzArd, write a clojure lint. Popularize it. Recommend it to newbies. etc.
19:48	rhickey	in my spare time :)
19:48	Chouser	rhickey: that task doesn't really need you, does it? or do you have Grand Plans?
19:48	AWizzArd	ayrnieu: yes, I discussed this with a few people already. It could have an optional static type system. But maybe Mark Tarver can be convinced to port Qi to Clojure :)
19:48	te	Hello all.
19:49	AWizzArd	Hello te
19:49	Chouser	te: hi
19:49	rhickey	Chouser: I don't know, there's just the last little bit I had/have to do in Java I'd like to get rid of
19:49	te	How goes the clojure hacking?
19:50	rhickey	AWizzArd: I think once we have Datalog you will be able to build a logical model of type signatures and validate it, completely outside of the code
19:50	AWizzArd	sounds good
19:51	AWizzArd	I had something like the Erlang Dialyzer in mind.
19:51	rhickey	I like Qi's approach
19:51	AWizzArd	yes
19:52	AWizzArd	the Dialyzer is doing completely optional type analysis and referring to http://www.it.uu.se/research/group/hipe/dialyzer it found several bugs in a huge code base
19:52	AWizzArd	"Dialyzer has been applied to large code bases, for example the entire code base of AXD301 consisting of about 2,000,000 lines of Erlang code, and has identified a significant number of software defects that have gone unnoticed after years of extensive testing."
19:53	AWizzArd	obviously in a dynamic system not all potential type errors can be caught
19:53	powr-toc	I'm toying with some concurrency code which needs to read/write state to disk. Naturally I need to prevent parallel read/writes to the same data... I'm looking at implementing it with two agents (with watches) each managing a hashmap of executing reads/writes, so as to effectively perform a read/write lock... does this sound reasonable? Or should I just use a java concurrent read/write lock?
19:54	te	If I manage to hang the REPL in emacs-- is there is a command to abort running that code, or do I need a new REPL?
19:55	AWizzArd	powr-toc: maybe an agent that removes read/write jobs from a queue and runs them, while any number of other threads write their jobs into that ref?
19:56	rhickey	powr-toc: if the targets are known, you can just set up an agent as a gatekeeper for each one, an agent will effectively serialize access
19:57	powr-toc	AWizzArd: that would serialize reads though. I want to parallelise reads and only lock in the case where a read/write is done to the same location.
19:57	powr-toc	(I want to parallelise writes as well).
19:58	AWizzArd	Chouser: did you just say that the watcher interface will change?
19:58	Chouser	AWizzArd: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=80
19:59	AWizzArd	thx
20:00	AWizzArd	btw, is force still needed?
20:00	AWizzArd	It seems delays now work fine with deref
20:00	rhickey	AWizzArd: force allows apis that work on both delays and non
20:00	rhickey	,(force 42)
20:00	clojurebot	42
20:01	AWizzArd	oh good
20:01	rhickey	,(deref 42)
20:01	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IDeref
20:01	powr-toc	rhickey: That sounds like the approach I'm taking... I'm pretty new to clojure, so I'm just sanity checking. Essentially I'm wanting to implement a simple key/value database-store, to cache large pre-calculated datasets in a concurrent application
20:01	AWizzArd	apropos delays, does it make sense to run them in their own thread, just as futures, with the difference that their threads don't run immediately?
20:02	Chouser	AWizzArd: why?
20:02	AWizzArd	makes not much sense right?
20:03	AWizzArd	the thread requesting data would have to wait anyway
20:03	Chouser	I'm just wondering what benefit you see in suggesting the change.
20:04	AWizzArd	maybe there is an obvious benefit that I haven't seen shrugs
20:05	pilkarn	can i call super from clojure?
20:05	Chouser	pilkarn: yes. proxy or gen-class?
20:07	AWizzArd	pilkarn: btw, a cool tool that Clojure offers is find-doc. It can help to find starting points if you have some term about the issue: (find-doc "super")
20:11	pilkarn	what license do I use for: here is what I wrote, do whatever you want with it and blame for anything and yes you can close the source(ie not gpl) fi you want but you cant add something to it and then claim i cant use that.
20:16	lisppaste8	pilkarn pasted "super java" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75997
20:16	slashus2	ayrnieu: http://github.com/ayrnieu/clj-actors/ <-- Is this an example of how the actors model may look in clojure if it is ever added?
20:16	pilkarn	^^
20:19	ayrnieu	slashus - no, it's an actors library with a networking library, and some examples.
20:20	AWizzArd	,(find-doc "weak")
20:20	clojurebot	nil
20:21	pilkarn	how would I implemetn my paste? with gen-class or proxy?
20:21	powr-toc	what would be idiomatic clojure for writing a serializable object to disk?
20:21	ayrnieu	the 'Concurrent architecture for Clojure' tagline says enough. If you're interested in it, you should fork it. Add a distribution layer, etc.
20:21	powr-toc	is it to drop to java?
20:22	Chouser	powr-toc: For clojure objects you can use prn and friends.
20:22	AWizzArd	powr-toc: you can (binding [print-dup true] (print my-clojure-object))
20:23	Chouser	pilkarn: probably proxy
20:23	AWizzArd	in in that binding you can as well bind out to some stream that points to your file
20:24	powr-toc	Chouser: does that serialize as an ascii sexp, or as a binary sexp, or something else?
20:24	Chouser	powr-toc: ascii sexp. well, utf-8 probably
20:24	AWizzArd	,(binding [print-dup true] (print [1 2 3]))
20:24	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
20:24	AWizzArd	,(binding [print-dup true] (pr-str [1 2 3]))
20:24	clojurebot	"[1 2 3]"
20:25	AWizzArd	,(binding [print-dup true] (pr-str {:a 1 :b 2}))
20:25	clojurebot	"#=(clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap/create {:a 1, :b 2})"
20:25	powr-toc	I guess that'll do for now... Whilst I get the concurrency stuff sorted out... Ultimately though I'll need to serialize large bitsets
20:27	cp2	i love github
20:28	powr-toc	What is the convention around foo variables? And where are they documented?
20:28	cp2	useful to look at everyone's clojure projects
20:28	cp2	:)
20:29	durka42	powr-toc: all the foo vars are supposed to have docstrings
20:29	durka42	,(doc print-dup)
20:29	clojurebot	"; When set to logical true, objects will be printed in a way that preserves their type when read in later. Defaults to false."
20:29	Chouser	powr-toc: indicates the var is meant to be rebound using 'binding'. Dunno if it's documented anywhere other than in lengthy discussion group threads.
20:30	Chouser	durka42: lots of vars without * have doc strings.
20:30	powr-toc	durka42: Ok, I tried that and got back nil for print-dup... I guess my clojure's a little long in the tooth :-)
20:30	durka42	well, since fns are vars, i suppose so :)
20:31	powr-toc	ok, I'm on svn rev 1162... guess I need an update :-)
20:31	hiredman	~latest
20:31	clojurebot	latest is 1299
20:31	ayrnieu	you can say it's a CL-ism that doesn't make sense when you separate binding from let , or you can say that it helps identify a global environment variable like print-dup without , in a lisp-1 , interfering with the function itself.
20:31	durka42	be careful updating... you may break everything
20:32	durka42	isn't 1162 the last revision before the move to google code?
20:32	durka42	~svn rev 1163
20:32	clojurebot	svn is http://clojure.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/
20:32	hiredman	svn rev 1163
20:32	powr-toc	durak42: probably is... svn up doesn't update... I'll switch repos and try again
20:33	hiredman	clojurebot's svn.clj needs an over haul
20:33	te	I am struggling a little bit to understand refs and dosync
20:33	powr-toc	are there any plans to migrate clojure to git, or is that a dirty word? :-)
20:34	ayrnieu	te - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_transactional_memory
20:34	ayrnieu	powr - look for clones on github.
20:34	te	ayrnieu: thanks ill read it
20:34	AWizzArd	powr-toc: there already is a clojure repo
20:34	AWizzArd	but svn works very well for rhickey so far
20:34	clojurebot	svn rev 1163; made default build run clean
20:35	powr-toc	Is it frequently updated?
20:35	te	ayrnieu: what about persistence with the STM?
20:35	AWizzArd	btw, why git and not Mercurial? ;)
20:35	AWizzArd	powr-toc: yes, very frequently
20:35	ayrnieu	te - what about it?
20:35	te	ayrnieu: Just trying to understand if persistence applies to the STM or not
20:35	powr-toc	AWizzArd: is it a direct clone, or are there other patches applied to it?
20:35	AWizzArd	direct clone
20:35	ayrnieu	te - they have nothing to do with each other.
20:36	te	ayrnieu: thanks
20:36	powr-toc	AWizzArd: is this the repo? git://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure.git
20:36	AWizzArd	exactly
20:36	powr-toc	sweet
20:36	slashus2	What about bzr?
20:37	AWizzArd	a few months now it gets very frequent updates
20:37	slashus2	bazaar VCS
20:37	powr-toc	lol - I didn't mean to start a flame war... I should never have asked :-)
20:37	AWizzArd	maybe darcs?
20:38	pilkarn	clojure uses STM right?
20:38	durka42	yes, with refs
20:38	ayrnieu	pilkarn - refs provide STM.
20:38	slashus2	Bazaar is similar to git, but it doesn't have as steep of learning curve.
20:38	AWizzArd	yes
20:38	pilkarn	we should make a distributed version ctrol system!
20:38	pilkarn	or not
20:38	AWizzArd	yeah sure, there is need for one ;)
20:39	AWizzArd	anyway, powr-toc, this issue comes up every few days, but so far svn works very well. No need to switch
20:40	powr-toc	AWizzArd: thought as much... Like I said I didn't mean to stir, I should've known better than to ask :-)
20:46	AWizzArd	powr-toc: btw, if you get your concurrent reads + writes running let me know pls
20:46	te	omg I think I just understood something in clojure
20:46	AWizzArd	grats te, what is it?
20:47	te	Basic stuff, refs, derefs
20:47	te	ive been playing a lot and messing things up, trying to understand how to fit pieces of stuff together
20:47	te	the idea of #{} is pretty jarring at first tbh
20:48	ayrnieu_	the idea of set literals?
20:48	te	nod
20:48	te	I just think in general I'm starting to understand the structure.
20:49	te	It feels a little bit more natural than it did yesterday.
20:49	powr-toc	AWizzArd: I'm just toying about, but if there's interest I might throw it up on github or something
20:50	AWizzArd	sounds good
20:51	powr-toc	AWizzArd: as I said I'm mostly doing it to learn about clojures concurrency primitives... There's a slim chance if I get anywhere that I might use it in production
20:51	lisppaste8	pilkarn pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75999
20:52	durka42	eww, java
20:52	durka42	:)
20:52	pilkarn	http://paste.lisp.org/display/75999 <- so what should I proxy there?
20:53	pilkarn	JTextArea or JFrame?
20:53	durka42	JTextArea, i think
20:53	powr-toc	I want to focus on correctness first, then wrapping it up in java api, then maybe performance.
20:54	durka42	pilkarn: what does the block marked "instance initializer" do?
20:54	durka42	is that an anonymous constructor?
20:57	cp2	20:52:27 [durka42] is that an anonymous constructor?
20:57	cp2	no
20:57	te	wow this is awesome.
20:57	cp2	its just in its own block
20:57	te	(show #{})
20:57	cp2	oh
20:57	te	i know that's pretty meh., but that does me a world of good
20:57	cp2	its not in any method
20:57	cp2	durka42: its basically a "quick" way to get something shoved into the default constructor
20:57	durka42	te: c.c.repl-utils is awesome
20:57	senxhnsshp	durka42: iwas wondering the same thing :)
20:57	te	durka42: yeah this is amazing
20:57	te	:)
20:58	durka42	cp2: proxy can't do that, can it?
20:58	cp2	i dont know
20:58	te	durka42: I can't seem to get my emacs to complete clojure.contrib
20:58	durka42	also those instance variables are going to have to be in a let wrapped around the proxy
20:58	te	any ideas?
20:58	durka42	te: don't use emacs, don't know, sorry
20:58	te	oh no prob
20:58	durka42	err, as in i don't use emacs, not telling you not to
21:01	te	oh cool -- i see what Lancet is now
21:02	te	it took me awhile to really start to freaking understand this stuff
21:02	te	it was like i had sunglasses on
21:03	senxhnsshp	how do I refer to this?
21:03	ayrnieu	senx - in gen-class or in proxy?
21:04	te	so do i understand right, collections are [], (), and {}?
21:04	senxhnsshp	proxy
21:04	ayrnieu	,(map coll? [[] () {} #{} "" 1 :hi 'hi 1/2])
21:04	clojurebot	(true true true true false false false false false)
21:05	te	booya!
21:05	te	you rule.
21:09	te	,(map coll? [\a])
21:09	clojurebot	(false)
21:09	te	,(map coll? [[\a]])
21:09	clojurebot	(true)
21:11	pilkarn	how do I refer to this in proxy?
21:11	Chouser	the name 'this' is bound for you.
21:12	pilkarn	so just, this
21:12	Chouser	yes
21:14	Raynes	I wish somebody would make a Clojure wallpaper, I don't feel like it :\|
21:14	pilkarn	and super?
21:15	ayrnieu	,(ancestors String)
21:15	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Object java.lang.Comparable java.lang.CharSequence java.io.Serializable}
21:15	powr-toc	am I right in thinking watchers used to be just functions but are now agents?
21:15	Chouser	pilkarn: proxy-super
21:15	Chouser	powr-toc: yes
21:16	lisppaste8	pilkarn pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76000
21:16	te	haha -- Man I am getting a kick out of clojure
21:17	Chouser	powr-toc: they used to be called 'watches' and worked only on agents
21:17	pilkarn	why am I getting a nullpoinrtexception from that code ? ^^
21:18	pilkarn	i dont really know what im doing but i didnt expect a nullpointer exception
21:18	powr-toc	Chouser: yeah... this is hurting my head... I used to have a watch on an agent, that would then dispatch a message to another agent... now watchers are agents, do I need to do that?
21:19	Chouser	powr-toc: probably not
21:20	hiredman	pilkarn: are you sure JPane shouldn't be JPanel?
21:20	Chouser	powr-toc: might depend on the args you used to pass to the agent action
21:22	hiredman	pilkarn: NPE with proxy usually means clojure cannot resolve the class you are trying to proxy
21:22	hiredman	resolve? locate? use?
21:22	te	(if "foo" "We are in clojure" "We are in common lisp")
21:22	te	returns "We are clojure"
21:23	te	yet (true? "foo") == false
21:23	te	nevermind im an idiot
21:23	te	im just trying to get it to print the else without reading ahead
21:23	powr-toc	ok, so here's the deal I have an agent encapsulating a map. Every N modifications I want it to rewrite itself to disk. I don't see why I need the watcher to be an agent, as it doesn't have any state... essentially I just want a callback to do the dispatch to a writer agent.
21:24	powr-toc	are there any simple examples demonstrating watchers??
21:24	Chouser	I have an example. I don't know if its simple. Just a sec...
21:26	powr-toc	(actually that's not strictly true... It serializes everytime the map's size is a ^N... i.e. every Nth add (assuming no removes))
21:27	cp2	ah windows, what a joy you are!
21:28	ayrnieu	te, that would say "We are in clojure" in CL.
21:28	Chouser	powr-toc: http://gist.github.com/32494
21:28	powr-toc	Chouser: cheers mate
21:28	Chouser	not very simple, sorry.
21:29	powr-toc	lol... no a little more complex than I was hoping =)
21:29	Chouser	the code you want is in use-agents
21:30	powr-toc	Chouser: ok.. so I take it there, your watcher-agent has no state?
21:30	Chouser	here's the related blog entry. http://blog.n01se.net/?p=34
21:30	powr-toc	i.e. (agent nil) is just to appease the add-watcher API?
21:30	Chouser	yes, that's right
21:30	rlb	Why would (.update msg-dig buf) work but (.update msg-dig buf 0 5) fail? Clojure complains about not being able to cast java.nio.DirectByteBuffer in the second case (buf), but not in the first. msg-dig is an instance of java.securityMessageDigest.
21:32	Chouser	no such class?
21:32	powr-toc	What is the motivation for making watchers agents?
21:33	Chouser	powr-toc: watches used to be synchronous -- run in the same thread as the agent they were watching
21:33	rlb	Chouser: which class? The program works fine as long as I don't call the update method that takes an offset and count.
21:33	Chouser	powr-toc: when watchers were added to ref, atom, agents, etc. they were made to run on agents so they would be asynchronous.
21:34	Chouser	powr-toc: apparently rhickey now wants them to be synchronous again -- I'm not sure what that'll do to the api.
21:34	powr-toc	Chouser: yeah I remember that... but isn't it better to allow them to be synchronous, as asynchrony is easily added by passing off directly to an agent
21:35	Chouser	powr-toc: yep, exactly as the issue describes: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=80
21:35	powr-toc	i.e. the current design seems to force you through another asynchronous message, even if you don't want it
21:36	powr-toc	lol, rhickey's always ahead in design :-)
21:37	senxhnsshp	http://confusion.tweakblogs.net/blog/1418/why-functional-programming-doesnt-catch-on.html <- and there clojure comes in. I have just "finsihed" an mp3player in it(ok mostly wrapping swing).
21:37	rlb	Is it possible that clojure just doesn't handle the second update method (overload) properly?
21:37	powr-toc	presumably that'll mean the return to a 3 arity function again?
21:39	Chouser	rlb: no
21:39	Chouser	rlb: I don't have a java.securityMessageDigest class
21:39	senxhnsshp	ah JPanel duh
21:40	rlb	Chouser: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/security/MessageDigest.html
21:40	rlb	I'm just using the current clojure .zip and the Debian unstable java packages.
21:41	hiredman	I also get a classnotfound for that class
21:42	Chouser	just missing a dot
21:42	Chouser	(show java.security.MessageDigest "getInstance")
21:42	rlb	oh, soory.
21:42	rlb	s/soory/sorry/
21:42	Chouser	sorry: (show java.security.MessageDigest "update")
21:42	rlb	Right -- (java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "sha-1")
21:42	Chouser	the method with 3 args takes a byte[] as the first arg
21:43	Chouser	instead of ByteBuffer like the 1 arg method
21:44	rlb	OK, so clojure isn't matching the Java docs. (Thanks for pointing out "show".)
21:45	hiredman	uh
21:45	hiredman	java isn't matching the javadocs
21:45	Chouser	(.update (java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "sha-1") (.getBytes "foo") 0 5)
21:46	cp2	21:38:39 [rlb] Chouser: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/security/MessageDigest.html
21:46	cp2	why are you looking at the 1.4.2 doc
21:46	hiredman	http://www.docjar.com/docs/api/java/security/MessageDigest.html
21:46	cp2	http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/security/MessageDigest.html
21:47	cp2	there is an update(byte[])
21:47	rlb	cp2, hiredman: oh, that's obviously my problem.
21:47	cp2	yes :)
21:48	rlb	I had just hit the 1.4 docs first and hadn't gone further.
21:48	rlb	Thanks for the cluebat.
21:49	slashus2	,(array-map 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2)
21:49	clojurebot	{1 1, 1 1, 1 1, 2 2}
21:49	slashus2	{1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2}
21:50	slashus2	,{1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2}
21:50	clojurebot	{1 1, 1 1, 1 1, 2 2}
21:50	Chouser	slashus2: yeah, don't do that. :-)
21:50	slashus2	I was wondering because when I put the previous one into my repl, I get the correct answer {1 1, 2 2}
21:51	Chouser	,(:a {:a 1 :a 2 :a 3})
21:51	clojurebot	1
21:51	slashus2	user=> (array-map 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2)
21:51	slashus2	{1 1, 1 1, 1 1, 2 2}
21:51	slashus2	user=> {1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2}
21:51	slashus2	{1 1, 2 2}
21:51	Chouser	hm, what version of clojure?
21:52	slashus2	The latest svn
21:52	slashus2	wait
21:52	slashus2	No, that was the December release.
21:52	slashus2	sorry
21:52	slashus2	I thought I had my path setup to run the latest svn.
21:53	Chouser	it was probably a hash-map.
21:53	Chouser	oh. i guess not
21:53	slashus2	No, (class gives an array map
21:57	slashus2	Is this correct behavior?
21:59	Chouser	slashus2: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/7e330411cd04ca71
22:01	slashus2	eh
22:01	powr-toc	Are there any clojure functions to create and write to files?
22:01	powr-toc	or do I just use Java?
22:01	Chouser	powr-toc: clojure.contrib.duckstreams, or just Java.
22:02	Chouser	by which I mean calling into Java class APIs from clojure code, of course, not actually writing a .java file.
22:02	powr-toc	Chouser: yeah, I knew what you meant :-)
22:03	pilkarn	(proxy [WindowAdapter] []
22:03	pilkarn	(windowClosing [evt] /////// doe sit have to be like that? is it class and then what class-args and then methods for the class?
22:03	Chouser	ok, good. You mentioned dropping to java earlier, and I didn't want to give you any encouragement.
22:03	pilkarn	windowClosing ins a method on WindowAdapter?
22:04	powr-toc	Chouser: Ultimately I'll need to create a java callable API out of whatever clojure code I write... but not yet :-)
22:04	Chouser	powr-toc: gen-class
22:04	slashus2	So, even though there are inconsistencies between hash-map and array-map, it will continue to behave this way?
22:04	Chouser	when you get there
22:05	powr-toc	Chouser: sweet! :-) It should be pretty minimal... probably just one or two classes
22:05	Chouser	slashus2: apparently. You'd prefer the check when building an array-map?
22:05	powr-toc	Chouser: btw... is there any way to create java-docs with genclass or the like? That would be awesome!
22:06	slashus2	Just for consistency sake.
22:06	Chouser	powr-toc: not yet, I think.
22:07	slashus2	,{1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6}
22:07	clojurebot	{1 1, 1 1, 1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4, 5 5, 6 6}
22:07	slashus2	,{1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7}
22:07	clojurebot	{1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4, 5 5, 6 6, 7 7}
22:08	slashus2	In practice, it looks strange, especially when it automatically switches when your map gets longer.
22:08	Chouser	why would you build an array-map with duplicate keys?
22:08	senxhnsshp	why is ther eno lazy-conj? how do I lazily add somethign to a vector?
22:08	Chouser	senxhnsshp: vectors aren't lazy
22:09	digash	,(binding [clojure.core/print-dup true] (read-string (pr-str (clojure.xml/parse (java.io.StringBufferInputStream. "<a>A</a>")))))
22:09	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: create
22:09	digash	isn't it suppose to work?
22:11	Chouser	hm, struct maps do not yet print and readable way.
22:12	powr-toc	has clojure-contrib been updated to avoid lazy-cons yet?
22:13	Chouser	digash: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-12-29.html#17:49b
22:13	Chouser	powr-toc: mostly
22:14	digash	Chouser: are you really a person or AI? :)
22:14	slashus2	Chouser: It seems to only be the case when the array map is being built. When you use assoc, it will not create a duplicate.
22:15	Chouser	slashus2: right
22:17	digash	Chouser: parse/emit should work for me, thank you again.
22:17	powr-toc	my bad... I was pointing at an old clojure-contrib.jar
22:19	slashus2	I guess the argument from inconsistency won't persuade. Besides, I can't think of a good reason that someone would build an array map with duplicate keys. It would just be nice to apply that assumption to every map.
22:24	lisppaste8	pilkarn pasted "proxy problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76005
22:24	senxhnsshp	cant i let there ^^
22:24	Chouser	no
22:24	Chouser	do it outside the proxy
22:27	lisppaste8	pilkarn annotated #76005 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76005#1
22:27	senxhnsshp	http://paste.lisp.org/display/76005#1
22:27	senxhnsshp	thing is i dont really understna dwhat im doing :P
22:32	xavieran	array-map and hash-map should be consistent!
22:33	slashus2	I thought I was the only one.
22:36	CptPicard	.... which means...?
22:39	CptPicard	hmmh so... what's the definition of the keyset of the map?
22:39	CptPicard	is it a set or a multiset..
22:40	slashus2	CptPicard: Would it be better to call it an associative array?
22:40	pilkarn	has anyoen ever displayed a bitma s background ina swinggui? how did you do it?
22:40	CptPicard	maybe... better term..
22:41	CptPicard	but of course the problem is... if you have equivalent keys and many of them, which of the associated items do you get out of the map?
22:41	Chouser	the first
22:41	CptPicard	ok
22:42	Chouser	it's an array, it is scanned for the first matching item.
22:42	Chouser	,(:a {:a 1 :a 2 :a 3})
22:42	clojurebot	1
22:42	slashus2	" collection of unique keys and a collection of values, where each key is associated with one value (or set of values)"
22:42	CptPicard	slashus2, well, arraymap is the latter case.. set of values
22:42	CptPicard	:)
22:43	CptPicard	I guess I can see the rationale for it to be inconsistent... at least you have that sort of functionality when you need it..
22:43	slashus2	CptPicard: That doesn't mean that. The first part exclusively says that it is a collection of unique keys, the second part is talking about what those unique keys may be associated with.
22:44	pilkarn	how do I override a method fo a superclass?
22:44	CptPicard	well the keys are unique, it's just that array-map is an implementation tactic.. :-)
22:45	CptPicard	the map value could just be "some object" otherwise...
22:46	slashus2	Is it true that a hash-map's performance profile is better when a map becomes larger?
22:46	Chouser	(foo :x [1 2 3]) ==> ((:x 1) (:x 2) (:x 3)) What's foo called?
22:46	CptPicard	compared to what?
22:46	slashus2	CptPicard: Compared to an array map.
22:46	CptPicard	sure.. linear vs. constant time
22:47	slashus2	right
22:47	Chouser	inner collections can be seqs or vectors.
22:48	rlb	(Hmm, I must still be doing something wrong -- passing a byte[] to "update/digest" works fine, but trying to use what I think is the same content via a ByteBuffer, doesn't.) Oh well, I'll come back to it later.
22:48	rlb	(by doesn't, I mean it generates an incorrect checksum)
22:48	pilkarn	JTextArea textArea = new JTextArea() { super.paintComponent(g); }
22:49	pilkarn	is that calling the paint method on its super-class?
22:52	hiredman	Chouser: I give up, what is it called?
22:53	hiredman	,(map (partial list :x) [1 2 3])
22:53	clojurebot	((:x 1) (:x 2) (:x 3))
22:53	Chouser	It's a real question, not a quiz.
22:53	Chouser	hm, not bad.
22:53	Chouser	I have 3, but I don't like any of them
22:54	hiredman	I have no idea what you'd call that
22:54	Chouser	,(for [value [1 2 3]] [:x value])
22:54	clojurebot	([:x 1] [:x 2] [:x 3])
22:55	hiredman	~for
22:55	clojurebot	for is not a loop
22:55	Chouser	oh, actually the other two were wrong.
22:55	hiredman	hmmm
22:55	hiredman	~for
22:55	clojurebot	for is not a loop
22:55	hiredman	fine
22:55	hiredman	hmmm
22:58	pilkarn	ahahahah
22:59	pilkarn	head explosion
23:03	hiredman	, (
23:03	clojurebot	EOF while reading
23:03	hiredman	erp
23:03	hiredman	,(map (partial apply list) (apply array-map (cons :x (interpose :x [1 2 3]))))
23:03	clojurebot	((:x 1) (:x 2) (:x 3))
23:07	danlarkin	I liked (map (partial list :x) [1 2 3]) better
23:10	rlb	This:
23:10	rlb	(def d (java.security.MessageDigest/getInstance "md5"))
23:10	rlb	(def v (java.nio.ByteBuffer/allocateDirect 1))
23:10	rlb	(.put v 0 102)
23:10	rlb
23:10	rlb	does not give the right digest if you call (.digest d) after that.
23:11	rlb	i.e. if you create a file containing a single "f" and run md5sum on it, the result is different.
23:11	rlb	However if you use a byte[] rather than a ByteBuffer, it works.
23:12	rlb	(assuming I'm not doing something else silly...)
23:14	Chouser	How are you creating the ByteBuffer?
23:14	hiredman	user=> (*1 (repeat :x) [1 2 3])
23:14	hiredman	((:x 1) (:x 2) (:x 3))
23:14	rlb	Chouser: see the "def v" above.
23:14	rlb	(followed by the .put)
23:14	Chouser	oh
23:15	Chouser	hm.
23:16	rlb	I though maybe I was printing the contents in hex improperly, so I double-checked the result with a series of (.get digest i) calls.
23:16	rlb	It was still wrong.
23:17	rlb	However, I'm very new to nio, so I may well be doing something wrong.
23:17	Chouser	well, here's what I've done this weekend: http://gist.github.com/68781 produces http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/issues-graph.png
23:18	danlarkin	Ooooooooo
23:18	rlb	Chouser: nice.
23:19	Chouser	rlb: how are you printing the byte array?
23:19	digash	Chouser: very cool, i needed an example how to use JChart.
23:20	rlb	Chouser: I was just using a per byte print, but then I realized java only has signed bytes, and switched to this:
23:20	rlb	(which may be wrong)
23:20	rlb	(dorun (map
23:20	rlb	(fn [x] (println (bit-and x 255)))
23:20	rlb	(seq (.digest d))))
23:20	rlb	(println)
23:20	rlb
23:21	slashus2	Chouser: Is there a reason that you used (Integer. n) instead of (int n) ?
23:21	slashus2	line 40-41
23:22	Chouser	,(int "5")
23:22	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Character
23:22	slashus2	ouch
23:22	Chouser	hm, "close" should be "total"
23:26	rlb	I guess I can just switch to byte[]. I was trying to use nio because I had the impression that it was more efficient, but I can worry about that later.
23:27	pilkarn	how do i calc n log n when n = 1000000
23:28	pilkarn	user=> (* 1000 (Math/log 1000))
23:28	pilkarn	6907.755278982137
23:28	pilkarn	is that correct?
23:29	Chouser	rlb: is there a newline in your test file?
23:31	Chouser	,(import '(java.security MessageDigest) '(java.nio ByteBuffer))
23:31	clojurebot	nil
23:31	Chouser	,(let [d (MessageDigest/getInstance "md5"), v (ByteBuffer/allocateDirect 1)] (.put v 0 102) (.update d v) (apply str (map #(format "%x" %) (.digest d))))
23:31	clojurebot	"8fa14cdd754f91cc6554c9e71929cce7"
23:31	gnuvince_	pilkarn: assuming it's log and not lg, yes.
23:31	rlb	Chouser: no, and I double checked with od.
23:32	Chouser	$ echo -n f \| md5sum ==> 8fa14cdd754f91cc6554c9e71929cce7 -
23:33	rlb	Chouser: hang on -- I think I may have gotten it.
23:33	rlb	I may have misunderstood a bit about messagedigest...
23:37	rlb	So after each read/update, would it be correct to call .clear on the buf to reset it for the next read?
23:38	Chouser	I don't know, sorry.
23:39	cooldude127	please kill me, why is finding a path with a BFS so damn unnatural
23:39	rlb	No problem -- I appreciate the help. Though I think perhaps I should stop soon. I'm overlooking obvious mistakes.
23:48	pilkarn	how can I reimplement a method for a class?