#clojure – 2009-02-18

2009-02-18

00:00	technomancy	I'm close
00:00	cooldude127	WOO
00:00	cooldude127	technomancy: after you push, the overlays should show on any failure, not just the last, right?
00:00	cooldude127	ideally?
00:01	cooldude127	also did you figure out why it was global?
00:01	technomancy	why don't you look into making it buffer-local. =)
00:01	technomancy	I'm working on the multiple-failures-per-test problem.
00:04	cooldude127	technomancy: thing is, it is supposed to be!
00:07	cooldude127	technomancy: ok well one problem is that the body of (define-minor-mode) is run both when the mode is enabled and when it is disabled
00:07	cooldude127	i think
00:08	technomancy	woot; fixed it
00:08	technomancy	I might add that I beat you.
00:08	cooldude127	lol
00:08	cooldude127	push it
00:09	technomancy	pushed!
00:11	cooldude127	technomancy: FAIL
00:11	technomancy	wha?
00:11	cooldude127	wrong type argument: sequencep, :pass
00:11	technomancy	cooldude127: you need to restart your slime
00:11	cooldude127	technomancy: may i ask why?
00:12	technomancy	or maybe just call clojure-test-load-reporting
00:12	technomancy	that second one should do it actually
00:13	cooldude127	technomancy: this is AWESOME
00:13	technomancy	yay!
00:13	technomancy	cooldude127: it works fine on with-test?
00:13	cooldude127	technomancy: yes, idk how, but yeah
00:13	technomancy	heh; cool
00:14	cooldude127	yeah
00:14	technomancy	I think I'm going to use defface instead of setting the bg-color
00:14	technomancy	so you can have it look decent for dark or light backgrounds
00:15	cooldude127	technomancy: good plan. but now you should figure out this buffer-local thing, cuz it's got me baffled
00:16	cooldude127	also, have you noticed that it's been a while since anyone else in here spoke?
00:16	cooldude127	like, about an hour
00:20	cooldude127	technomancy: hmm, something's not working
00:20	defn	I think I just decided what I want to do with my life.
00:21	technomancy	defn: bind function literals to vals?
00:21	defn	Ding ding ding!
00:21	defn	What do we have for them Johnny?
00:21	defn	A BRAND NEW CAR!
00:22	cooldude127	technomancy: i decided to start using the clojure-test-mode in a new file with a new ns, and i have a test i know show fail, but it's not getting highlighted
00:23	defn	cooldude127: what does the 127 stand for?
00:23	cooldude127	defn: not a damn thing
00:23	defn	cooldude127: 2nd question, are you actually a cool dude?
00:23	cooldude127	yes
00:23	cooldude127	defn: would you believe i have been asked that before?
00:23	defn	cooldude127: final question, do you not have any desire to get rid of numbers on your nick?
00:24	cooldude127	not really, since i use this for a lot of things. i randomly picked it the first time i used IRC, and i just kept using it
00:24	defn	Part of me wants to chastize you for not being elite, while the other part of me would like to commend you for not falling victim to peer pressure.
00:24	cooldude127	lol
00:25	cooldude127	defn: if i were to remove them, i would have so many accounts to change
00:25	defn	Another part of me wonders if you're over 30?
00:25	cooldude127	defn: nope. 18
00:25	silkarn	how does memoize work? can it memoize a function internally? a (memoize naive-fib)?
00:25	technomancy	picking a nick is hard
00:25	technomancy	you don't realize when you're in high school that it might stick with you the rest of your life
00:25	cooldude127	technomancy: exactly
00:25	defn	Yeah, I've had a bunch of them. I can actually give you the whole history of my life in screen names.
00:25	defn	Well history from 12->
00:25	cooldude127	lol
00:26	cooldude127	technomancy: enough chit-chat. pay attention to my problems :p
00:26	defn	I was originally XxPuMT2KiLLxX on AOL
00:26	technomancy	cooldude127: well I got faces working, but the one that works with the default colors is bad; you can't read strings in it
00:26	cooldude127	oh crap
00:26	Chouser	<-- Zorph
00:26	technomancy	defn: then you learned to keep your cat off your keyboard, right?
00:26	defn	hahaha!
00:27	technomancy	cooldude127: you'll have to send me a test case to repro
00:27	technomancy	oh, actually I haven't really tried switching ns
00:28	defn	I was originally XxPuMT2KiLLxX, then I was known as "Jack" on Ultima Online not because my name is Jack, but because my lumberjack became my main character, then I was "code" (and still am on 1 irc server), then I became qed, then tao, and lately 'defn'
00:28	lisppaste8	cooldude127 pasted "this is what doesn't work" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75684
00:28	defn	my name is devin in real life, so defn just might stick
00:29	cooldude127	defn: that's cool, i like that
00:29	cooldude127	honestly sometimes i can't believe people take me seriously on here with this nick
00:29	danlarkin	sooo building jars is the worst
00:29	defn	haha -- im trying hard!
00:30	defn	sometimes people who dont give a shit about certain things (like personal hygene for instance), are REALLY good at other things
00:30	cooldude127	defn: i figure that by helping people out enough, they won't care about my nick
00:30	technomancy	danlarkin: ugh. I've been putting that off.
00:30	cooldude127	lol
00:30	technomancy	distributing code as tarballs is not that bad. =)
00:31	defn	cooldude127: it also lends a certain sort of legitimacy to what you say, too
00:31	cooldude127	yeah
00:31	danlarkin	technomancy: for a project with a lot of deps (like mine) ohhhh what a headache
00:31	defn	people who are named "monad" or some shit tend to be arrogant ass hats
00:31	cooldude127	lol
00:31	defn	why the lucky stiff is the perfect balance of knowledge and moniker IMHO
00:31	cooldude127	i've considered switching my nick to something like my initials
00:32	cooldude127	something simple and short
00:32	defn	yeah using your real name is cool because its like "hey, i actually stand by what i say"
00:32	silkarn	can someone explaing memoizing to me? I see how to use it for caching, like check if in hashmap else retrieve from database but how do I memoize a function? like naive fibonacci? how does the memoize function catch the output? where in clojure.lang can I find memoize?
00:32	cooldude127	yeah
00:32	technomancy	_why is the man
00:32	defn	_why is literally my hero
00:32	defn	i think the stuff he's working on with hackety is so incredibly noble and "right"
00:32	defn	he is my moral programming compass
00:32	durka42	~source memoize
00:33	cooldude127	silkarn: memoization takes advantages of closures, so the function has a reference to a map that stores the args and corresponding values
00:34	danlarkin	silkarn: http://clojure.org/atoms has a good example of memoization
00:34	defn	_why is also the first programmer i ever read or followed that wasn't 100% technical, with no apologetics for being artsy and abstract
00:34	cooldude127	danlarkin: in fact i think that is the actual memoize source code
00:34	defn	im a _why-type programmer
00:34	cooldude127	defn: yeah _why's poignant guide is AMAZING
00:35	defn	he makes me feel like so much less of an outsider in the programming community -- my ideas are usually like "ooo let's make a generative art thingy that makes neat stuff to look at for no good reason!"
00:35	technomancy	cooldude127: that file you pasted works if you toss a (run-tests) on the end
00:35	defn	cooldude127: yeah that is a fantastic book
00:35	cooldude127	technomancy: you're right, it does! WHY?
00:35	defn	cooldude127: i got my girlfriend to learn ruby with that book
00:36	defn	someone you would NEVER expect to dip their toes in
00:36	cooldude127	defn: was she a computer-type person before that?
00:36	technomancy	defn: at RailsConf I heard him stop someone in the hall to explain all about Dog Scouts: http://www.dogscouts1.com/
00:36	defn	cooldude127: no, not at all
00:36	cooldude127	lol wow
00:36	technomancy	no context or anything, just "so there are these dogs that are scouts and get badges and stuff..."
00:36	technomancy	very surreal.
00:36	defn	dude wtf
00:36	cooldude127	i can't imagine my girlfriend learning how to program
00:36	defn	why cant i be that awesome
00:36	cooldude127	defn: i wonder about that sometimes
00:37	technomancy	cooldude127: well I'm done for tonight. I'll push out my stuff, but if you have any leads please keep it rolling.
00:37	cooldude127	technomancy: of course
00:37	defn	those are the thoughts going on in my head that i filter so as to look in control and useful
00:38	defn	sometimes in the middle of a meeting at work i just want to say "diana ross" or "muppet babies rule"
00:38	technomancy	cooldude127: pushed out; lemme know how it goes.
00:38	defn	cooldude127: sorry to interrupt you guys
00:39	defn	i just like technomancy
00:39	defn	i have a man crush on him
00:39	cooldude127	we all do
00:39	cooldude127	especially after emacs-starter-kit
00:40	danlarkin	I think I liked it better when this channel was 99% on topic :-/
00:40	cooldude127	lol
00:40	defn	does a channel name always dictate what on-topic is?
00:41	cooldude127	it's supposed to
00:41	defn	what if all of the stuff im saying is generated by clojure?
00:41	danlarkin	then I'd love to see your code :)
00:41	cooldude127	technomancy just pimped his clojure-test-mode on twitter
00:41	defn	haha! touche
00:41	cooldude127	damnit growl
00:42	defn	what if what im typing is really just obfuscated clojure being interpreted and molded to fit the current context?
00:43	defn	after all my nick is 'defn'
00:43	slashus2	What is a concrete example of where atoms would be very useful besides that of memoize. Would I use it inside of a function were I want a locally mutable reference?
00:43	cooldude127	slashus2: i think so, but you should probably try to avoid needing that
00:43	hiredman	(map (partial map inc) (replicate 10 (range 10)))
00:44	cooldude127	purely functional code is better
00:44	hiredman	D[D[D[D[D[D,(map (partial map inc) (replicate 10 (range 10)))
00:44	hiredman	the hell
00:44	hiredman	,(map (partial map inc) (replicate 10 (range 10)))
00:44	clojurebot	((1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))
00:44	slashus2	I know that, but an atom is much better than using a reference inside of a function?
00:45	slashus2	ref*
00:45	cooldude127	slashus2: yes
00:45	hiredman	,(let [f #(fn [& y] (apply % (reverse y))] ((f map) (replicate 10 (range 10)) (partial map inc)))
00:45	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: ]
00:46	hiredman	,(let [f #(fn [& y] (apply % (reverse y)))] ((f map) (replicate 10 (range 10)) (partial map inc)))
00:46	clojurebot	((1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))
00:46	slashus2	I am still adjusting. Came from a world of mutability.
00:46	cooldude127	slashus2: try some haskell first. get forced out of it
00:46	cooldude127	:)
00:46	slashus2	noo
00:46	slashus2	:-P
00:46	hiredman	atoms are better for local low contention things
00:46	hiredman	refs for global high contention
00:48	slashus2	Say in a genetic algorithm, I am trying to do a single crossover mating on two vectors. I could create an atom referencing the first part of the slice, and then use that atom to construct the rest of the offspring's dna.
00:49	hiredman	,(let [f #(fn [& y] (apply % (reverse y)))] ((f map) (replicate 10 (range 10)) ((f partial) inc map)))
00:49	clojurebot	((1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))
00:50	defn	How hard would it be to make something similar to that of say, a TI-89?
00:51	defn	Why does Texas Instruments have such a monopoly on the graphing calculator?
00:51	slashus2	A clojure powered graphics calculator!
00:51	hiredman	slashus2: I have never done any genetic programming, but it seems like that could just be a function of the two vectors, why do you need some mutable state?
00:52	slashus2	I am still partial to looping and mutation.
00:52	defn	slashus2: Yeah I'd love to do it-- I just don't really know where to start, but I suppose if I think about it long enough...
00:52	slashus2	I will grow out of it.
00:52	danlarkin	it's very, very hard
00:52	hiredman	,(vec (map + [1 2 3 4] [10 20 30 40]))
00:52	clojurebot	[11 22 33 44]
00:52	defn	danlarkin: really?
00:53	danlarkin	really
00:53	defn	danlarkin: What is so difficult in your estimation?
00:54	danlarkin	they use very advanced formulae in those calculators for derivation and integration
00:54	danlarkin	in order to give you an answer in a reasonable amount of time
00:54	hiredman	,(let [f #(fn [& y] (apply % (reverse y)))] ((f map) (replicate 3 (range 3)) ((f partial) inc map)))
00:54	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3))
00:54	cooldude127	danlarkin: i have some symbolic math code in clojure that understands a few derivative rules :)
00:55	defn	cooldude127: I would love to see it!
00:55	cooldude127	it's mostly ported from the PAIP book
00:55	hiredman	obfuscation would be easier if clojure had a built in flip function
00:55	cooldude127	defn: it's in math/symbolic.clj on http://github.com/cooldude127/clojure-code/
00:56	hiredman	,(import '(java.util LinkedList Collections))
00:56	clojurebot	nil
00:56	defn	cooldude127: thanks so much
00:57	slashus2	It would be cool if clojure had built-in symbolic math stuff.
00:57	gregh	SICP also has some symbolic differentiation code: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-18.html#%_sec_2.5.3
00:57	slashus2	It would be a really good thing.
00:57	hiredman	,(let [f #(fn [& y] (apply % (reverse y))) shuffle #(let [a (LinkedList. %)] (Collections/shuffle a) a)] ((f map) ((f map) (replicate 3 (range 3)) ((f partial) inc map)) (partial map shuffle)))
00:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.util.Collection
00:58	cooldude127	slashus2: i'm gonna keep working on this, maybe it will become the definitive
00:58	hiredman	,(let [f #(fn [& y] (apply % (reverse y))) shuffle #(let [a (LinkedList. %)] (Collections/shuffle a) a)] ((f map) ((f map) (replicate 3 (range 3)) ((f partial) inc map)) shuffle))
00:58	clojurebot	(#<LinkedList [3, 2, 1]> #<LinkedList [2, 1, 3]> #<LinkedList [3, 1, 2]>)
00:58	cooldude127	hiredman: don't you have your own repl? :-p
00:58	slashus2	Not very many good languages have thing feature built-in.
00:58	hiredman	I am trying to inject some clojure into #clojure
00:58	slashus2	that*
00:59	slashus2	That code makes my heart skip a beat. :-P
01:01	hiredman	I'll spare you the corrected shuffle that calls seq on the LinkedList
01:02	slashus2	Flexing his functional programming muscles.
01:02	hiredman	~hiredman
01:02	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
01:03	danlarkin	ok I'm off to bed, giving up on actually getting a jar tonight
01:04	slashus2	The behavior of the repl when you run java -jar clojure.jar doesn't have an up arrow history feature, or allow you to hit the back arrow. Is this normal?
01:04	cooldude127	woo! :
01:04	cooldude127	math.symbolic> (simp '(d (* 2 x) x))
01:04	cooldude127	2
01:05	cooldude127	math.symbolic> (simp '(d (* 2 (** x 2)) x))
01:05	cooldude127	(* 2 (* 2 x))
01:05	cooldude127	could use a few more rules :)
01:06	defn	Why don't paint applications ever let you use a trackpad like a wacom? You have to click the mouse button.. It ruins the whole thing.
01:06	defn	It should be like finger painting on a trackpad.
01:08	hiredman	slashus2: use rlwrap
01:08	hiredman	rlwrap java -jar clojure.jar
01:10	slashus2	rl is referring to the readline library right?
01:10	hiredman	yes
01:10	defn	math.symbolic> (simp '(d (* x (** 2 x)) -1))
01:13	cooldude127	defn: that doesn't sound right
01:14	cooldude127	nope, fails awesomely
01:14	cooldude127	(+ (* x (d (** 2 x) -1)) (* (** 2 x) (d x -1)))
01:14	cooldude127	math.symbolic> (simp '(d (+ (* 2 (** x 2)) (* 4 x)) x))
01:14	cooldude127	(+ (* 4 x) 4)
01:14	cooldude127	yay
01:15	slashus2	cooldude127: You should make to accept in-line input as well.
01:15	slashus2	it*
01:15	cooldude127	slashus2: what do you mean?
01:15	slashus2	dx x**2
01:15	slashus2	or something like that
01:16	cooldude127	slashus2: you mean infix
01:16	slashus2	yes yes
01:16	cooldude127	and to that i say: no
01:16	slashus2	sorry
01:16	cooldude127	not fun
01:16	cooldude127	lol
01:16	cooldude127	infix is gross and requires handling precedence
01:16	slashus2	It would be nasty.
01:17	cooldude127	the one i ported this from handles infix, but i didn't want to bother
01:17	cooldude127	if you want to use lisp, use prefix
01:18	slashus2	I know, I just wanted to see your reaction.
01:18	cooldude127	lol
01:18	cooldude127	well, i'm off to bed, i'm gonna work on this more tomorrow...err, today, but later
01:18	slashus2	I thought you might do something like head explodes.
01:18	cooldude127	haha
01:18	cooldude127	i should have
01:18	cooldude127	anyway, good night
01:19	slashus2	night
01:20	defn	cooldude127: iyou gone yet?
02:38	qmrw	how do I convert an integer into a Character or String? I tried (Character. 65) but that gives exception java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
02:39	qmrw	i guess i ask, how to convert Integer into a char?
02:40	slashus2	(char 56)?
02:42	qmrw	man i feel so relieved and stupid, thanks!
02:42	slashus2	(int \H) => 72
02:43	qmrw	ah, now those two functions complete the picture
03:29	alinp	,(doc lazy-seq)
03:29	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. Any closed over locals will be cleared prior to the tail call of body."
03:30	alinp	hi
03:31	alinp	can anyone help me regarding a demo for lazy evaluation in clojure ?
03:31	alinp	I understand that the expression will not be evaluated unless needed
03:32	alinp	(I'm coming from strict env, java and it's little bit strange for me to understand the behavior of lazy evaluation)
03:44	alinp	,(doc lazy-cons)
03:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: lazy-cons in this context
03:44	achim_p	alinp: anything specific you don't understand?
03:45	alinp	I need something like for idiots to explain what is lazy evaluation :)
03:46	alinp	the thing is that I know something about it, but I don't want to get the wrong idea and live with it
03:46	alinp	some examples with and without lazy evaluation will help a lot
03:46	alinp	to see what's the difference in a real example
03:50	alinp	user=> (doc lazy-cons)
03:50	alinp	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: lazy-cons in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
03:50	alinp	c'mon ...
03:51	alinp	so... where's my lazy-cons ?
03:51	hiredman	lazy-cons is gone
03:51	slashus2	alinp: (range 10) would be a good example of a function returning a lazy sequence. I could do (range 1000000000) and it wouldn't take any time; it only guarantees that I will have up to that many numbers if I request them; not loading all of those numbers into memory. (take 5 (range 100000000)) will take the first 5 numbers of that lazy sequence.
03:52	hiredman	~def lazy-seq
03:52	hiredman	(doc lazy-seq)
03:52	clojurebot	Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. Any closed over locals will be cleared prior to the tail call of body.; arglists ([& body])
03:53	alinp	slashus2: thanks, it's very clear now
03:53	alinp	at least as simple as it sounds
03:53	alinp	other q now: why lazy-cons was removed ?
03:54	achim_p	alinp: are you using the latest svn revision?
03:54	alinp	yes
03:54	hiredman	the creation of seqs needed to move up a level of abstraction to provide fully lazy seqs
03:54	alinp	oh, I see
03:55	achim_p	clojure's laziness model changed very recently - most of the (unofficial) documentation you'll find online won't reflect that ...
03:55	alinp	achim_p: I noticed that
03:55	alinp	so, btw
03:55	hiredman	achim_p: the official api page doesn't reflect it either
03:55	alinp	it's a good thing to use svn version ?
03:55	alinp	should I use some release ?
03:55	hiredman	alinp: most do
03:56	alinp	I see
03:56	alinp	it's very frustrating to find myself tomorrow without a function :)
03:56	alinp	I mean .. I write some piece of code today and tomorrow it makes no sense
03:57	hiredman	weird
03:57	alinp	maybe the doc should be up to release version ?
03:57	alinp	btw, the API doc from clojure.org is for release version ?
03:57	hiredman	the api page is targeted at the latest release which was from december
03:58	slashus2	Is there a release schedule?
03:58	alinp	by realease I mean 20081217
03:58	alinp	oh, ok
03:58	hiredman	slashus2: nope
03:59	alinp	thanks guys for infos
03:59	slashus2	It will probably be a while before the language stabilizes I trust?
03:59	achim_p	alinp: i'd suggest switching back to svn <= 1286 for now
03:59	hiredman	rhickey is trying to get everything in shape for 1.0 because after that the ideal would be no breaking changes
04:00	alinp	so, there will be a 1.0 version .. yey
04:00	alinp	I asked on mailing list ... that maybe some -v arg should be available for clojure
04:00	hiredman	well, I was expecting 1.0 a month or two ago, so...
04:00	alinp	I'm pretty sure that will be, right ? when a version will be
04:01	alinp	one more q ...
04:01	alinp	hiredman: do you know if 1.0 will be a branch from current trunk ?
04:01	alinp	I mean, the trunk is targeted to be 1.0 ?
04:01	slashus2	After the integration of full laziness, it will probably be pretty unstable for a while?
04:02	hiredman	what else would it be?
04:02	alinp	well, I don't know
04:02	alinp	maybe is working in parallel for version 1.0 to other branch
04:02	hiredman	slashus2: maybe a few days, a week at the most I imagine
04:02	alinp	that's why I'm asking
04:03	hiredman	rhickey moves fast
04:03	alinp	I really noticed that :)
04:03	hiredman	and contrib already builds, so it just needs so testing
04:03	hiredman	the main thing will be the libraries out there to catch up
04:05	hiredman	clojurebot got updated to lazy today, the amount of changes required was a few lines here and there. I had one function that someone else contributed that I did not unstand stop working
04:06	hiredman	uh, well, I guess it is yersterday now
04:16	alinp	hiredman: can you please tell me (or link) what exactly is a special form ?
04:16	alinp	form and special form
04:16	alinp	form != special form ?
04:16	alinp	:)
04:17	AWizzArd	special form is a subset of the set of all forms
04:17	AWizzArd	A form is something that can be evaluated
04:18	alinp	so, a function is a form ?
04:18	alinp	a function can be evaluated, right ?
04:19	AWizzArd	the code that you write down can potentially be a form
04:19	AWizzArd	the Common Lisp Hyperspec defines it as: form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated.
04:19	hiredman	"form" more else means a s-expression
04:19	AWizzArd	no
04:19	AWizzArd	this is not a form:
04:19	AWizzArd	,(hahaha 15)
04:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: hahaha in this context
04:20	AWizzArd	as long hahaha is not defined as a function the s-expression (hahaha 15) is not a form
04:20	hiredman	AWizzArd: I am not attempting to pin the thing down
04:20	AWizzArd	good :)
04:21	hiredman	I am giving a very inprecise, but in most cases good enough answer
04:21	AWizzArd	right
04:21	jdz	AWizzArd: i don't agree
04:21	alinp	ok, thank you
04:21	AWizzArd	jdz: what I said is from Kent Pitman
04:22	AWizzArd	I discussed this issue with him in April 2005.
04:22	jdz	so what you mean is that formness of an s-expression depends on dynamic context?
04:23	jdz	and one cannot talk about something being a form without first trying it in runtime environment?
04:23	AWizzArd	I asked him: "IF (foobar 1 2) is also a form, what then is /not/ a form?"
04:23	AWizzArd	He answered: "Something you don't intend to evaluate."
04:23	jdz	)foobar 1 2( definitely is not a form
04:23	AWizzArd	agreed
04:24	AWizzArd	An expression is an object that either does not appear at all in a form or appears in a place that doesn't follow normal evaluation rules. e.g., in (defun foo (x) (declare (fixnum x)) (+ x 3)) the expression (fixnum x) appears, but is not something intended to be executed (nor is it executed; its position in the expression prevents the evaluator from reaching it).
04:24	AWizzArd	Also from Pitmans mail.
04:25	hiredman	alinp: special forms are forms that having something is not a function or a macro as the first (the operator position)
04:25	hiredman	def is not a function or a macro, (def a 1)
04:25	AWizzArd	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#special_form
04:25	jdz	i'd say special forms are the ones you cannot express in the language itself (they have to be implemented by lower-level means)
04:25	jdz	like, for instance, lambda
04:27	jdz	oh, i mean special operator above (using CL terminology)
04:27	AWizzArd	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form
04:27	hiredman	see, my answer "forms are basically s-expressions" is far more useful an answer then arguing about symatics and pasting stuff from the hyperspec
04:28	AWizzArd	hiredman: it is not my answer vs yours. I already agreed that in most cases s-expressions can be seen as equal to forms. It is just the matter of providing the definitions.
04:29	hiredman	AWizzArd: clojure is not common lisp, and while it may use some of the same terms as cl they do not have the same symantic content
04:29	AWizzArd	Several things of what the CLHS states are true for all members of the Lisp family.
04:30	AWizzArd	It makes no sense to invent a completely new vocabulary for Clojure. And especially not one that contradicts the one that already is in use for some decades.
04:31	hiredman	"there are only so many good names"
04:31	AWizzArd	Anyway, I have a question, maybe you have an idea:
04:31	AWizzArd	Problem: generating n pairwise different random numbers between a and b. The general idea would be: (take 4 (set (repeatedly (rand-int 20))))
04:31	AWizzArd	but this does not work, as set eagerly tries to eat as much it can from the infinit set of random numbers
04:32	achim_p	the (non-)formness of "(foobar 1 2)" in clojure might be different from CL, because CL does different things to symbols read during read time. anybody remember the details? i sure don't :)
04:33	hiredman	hmmm
04:33	AWizzArd	(take-while (not= 4 (count (set (repeatedly (rand-int 20))))))
04:33	jdz	achim_p: i don't think this example represents what you mean (whatever it is)
04:33	AWizzArd	I see no way to have infinit/lazy sets right now.
04:33	AWizzArd	Or is there maybe a nice trick to express this problem in a highlevel way?
04:34	jdz	AWizzArd: how about making a set from 4 elements taken from the inifinite sequence?
04:34	jdz	make it 8
04:34	hiredman	you can, it just would not be a set, it would be a lazy seq
04:34	hiredman	hmm
04:35	AWizzArd	and the lazy seq does not have the semantics of storing only one copy of each object
04:35	hiredman	it could
04:35	hiredman	hmmm
04:35	hiredman	yeah, it would not be pretty
04:35	AWizzArd	,(take 4 (set (take 1000 (repeatedly #(rand-int 20)))))
04:36	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
04:36	AWizzArd	,(take 4 (set (take 1000 (repeatedly #(rand-int 20)))))
04:36	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
04:36	AWizzArd	:)
04:36	AWizzArd	this guy orders them ;)
04:36	achim_p	i roughly remember rhickey stating "a symbol is just a symbol in clojure" and that it would be different in CL. thus i'd argue (hahaha 1 2) is a form regardless of hahaha being defined.
04:37	hiredman	(doc hash-set)
04:37	clojurebot	Returns a new hash set with supplied keys.; arglists ([] [& keys])
04:37	AWizzArd	achim_p: it has nothing to do with the behaviour of the reader.
04:37	jdz	achim_p: that would be the other way around actually, because CL has dynamic environment (there could be a symbol-unbound handler established, like it is in the REPL usually)
04:38	hiredman	,(take 4 (apply hash-set (take 1000 (repeatedly #(rand-int 20)))))
04:38	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
04:39	hiredman	,(take 4 (apply hash-set (repeatedly #(rand-int 20))))
04:39	AWizzArd	I suppose that killed the bot?
04:39	hiredman	nah
04:39	AWizzArd	ah okay, it stopes after 5 secs, good
04:39	hiredman	clojurebot: still good right?
04:39	clojurebot	No entiendo
04:39	jdz	i don't understand why you'd expect that to work, actually
04:39	hiredman	blew the heap
04:40	AWizzArd	jdz: how would you wish to state that problem to express the idea?
04:40	AWizzArd	I mean, in a highlevel and efficient way
04:40	hiredman	jdz: I site the case of "you never know"
04:41	AWizzArd	set could be growing lazily
04:41	hiredman	,(let [a #(first %&)] (apply a (iterate inc 0)))
04:41	clojurebot	0
04:41	jdz	i don't quite understand what you want to achieve, because i think what you want is (hash-set (take 4 (repeatedly #(rand-int 20))), but it clearly is not because then you'd write it that way
04:42	AWizzArd	jdz: the random numbers should be pairwise different
04:42	AWizzArd	if we just take n out of that seq then there could be duplicates
04:42	jdz	oh, right, no duplicates
04:42	AWizzArd	that is what makes it interesting imo
04:43	AWizzArd	there are lots of inefficient ways, and of course the efficient low-level way
04:44	AWizzArd	I am just curious if I maybe missed something that allows to express the idea in an elegant way, but is efficient as well
04:44	jdz	well, you can write your own lazy-sequence that has a set inbetween...
04:44	AWizzArd	for example, for shuffeling a vector I would love to say (sort random my-vector)
04:44	jdz	you can express it in a very elegant way using loop/recur :)
04:45	AWizzArd	but Java does not like it that 2 > 1, and 1 > 5, and 5 > 2
04:45	AWizzArd	jdz: yes g
04:45	jdz	AWizzArd: shuffling a vector is not that trivial
04:45	jdz	if you want to do it correctly, that is
04:46	achim_p	AWizzArd: distinct?
04:46	jdz	and wanting your sort+random to work is a bad idea mio
04:47	jdz	*imo even
04:47	achim_p	,(take 4 (distinct (repeatedly #(rand-int 20))))
04:47	jdz	,(doc distinct)
04:47	jdz	what, clojurebot is not threaded?
04:52	jdz	looks like distinct is what AWizzArd is after, but why does it not quite work?
04:56	achim_p	jdz: hmm, it doesn't?
04:56	achim_p	user=> (take 4 (distinct (repeatedly #(rand-int 20))))
04:56	achim_p	(7 4 16 14)
04:56	jdz	oh, it does. it's just that clojurebot is dead
05:03	AWizzArd	achim_p: looks good, I must try it
05:03	AWizzArd	thx hiredman, jdz and achim_p
05:03	jdz	AWizzArd: the source to distinct is actually the loop/recur i had in mind :)
05:06	AWizzArd	yes, of course
05:06	AWizzArd	jdz: can we maybe use this example code of achim_p to shuffle a vector?
05:07	AWizzArd	though it would be damn inefficient, forget it
05:07	AWizzArd	idea was to use that code for generating the order of indexes
05:09	djpowell	SimpleDateFormat is a pain. It is so un-thread-safe that it mutates itself during a call to .parse if I remember. You can imagine the hilarity that caused when I was writing a web-based calendar sync app once.
05:09	achim_p	should be n log n, right? you can shuffle in linear time, but not in pure clojure
05:09	djpowell	it might be handy if there was a way to have a dynamic var rebound to a new instance of an object in each thread for using such un-thread safe objects
05:09	AWizzArd	wtf, (time (def x (take 100000 (distinct (repeatedly #(rand-int 100000)))))) only takes 250-300 msecs on my machine?!
05:10	jdz	achim_p: why not? i'm just writing vector shuffling which i think will be linear time...
05:10	AWizzArd	ah, damn.. of course, as take is lazy
05:12	jdz	AWizzArd: what does laziness has to do with it?
05:12	jdz	*have
05:13	jdz	AWizzArd: i mean, where did you expect any slowness?
05:13	AWizzArd	well, just do (time (count x)) :)
05:13	achim_p	jdz, well, technically indexed access in clojure is logarithmic
05:13	AWizzArd	I wanted to see how big my vectors (which I want to shuffle) could be with that method
05:14	achim_p	that might matter for huge vectors - you won't beat java's shuffle
05:14	jdz	achim_p: there are no indexed accesses in that code...
05:15	achim_p	jdz: fisher yates shuffle?
05:15	AWizzArd	achim_p: you mean there already is a shuffle in Java?
05:15	AWizzArd	achim_p: schau mal deine Messages an :p
05:15	jdz	achim_p: no, i was talking about the AWizzArd's nanobenchmark
05:15	achim_p	AWizzArd: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/util/Collections.html#shuffle(java.util.List)
05:17	jdz	achim_p: i actually can't remember exact names of the correct shuffling algorithms because i came up with a correct one myself when i needed it :)
05:23	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
05:23	clojurebot	max people is 149
05:23	AWizzArd	,(.shuffle (java.util.Vector. [10 20 30 40]))
05:23	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: shuffle for class java.util.Vector
05:24	jdz	,(java.util.Collections/shuffle (java.util.Vector. [10 20 30 40]))
05:24	clojurebot	nil
05:25	jdz	,(let [vec (java.util.Vector. [10 20 30 40])] (java.util.Collections/shuffle vec) (seq vec))
05:25	clojurebot	(30 20 10 40)
05:27	AWizzArd	okay, I missed that shuffle was a static method, thx
05:28	AWizzArd	Hallo the Lau.
05:28	Lau_of_DK	Hey AWizzArd
05:28	Lau_of_DK	Any gen-class gurus in here ?
05:35	Lau_of_DK	I have Class1, which is inherited from Class2, Class2 has a protected member: display, which I need to expose to my own class, which has Class1 as superclass, like
05:35	Lau_of_DK	public class MyClass extends Class1
05:35	Lau_of_DK	How do I expose that field?
05:43	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: :exposes {display {:get get-display :set set-display}}
05:45	cgrand	err I mean :exposes {display {:get getDisplay :set setDisplay}}
06:02	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: I get a "No matching field found" error - Do I need something like Class2$display ?
06:14	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: hmm, let me check genclass.clj
06:19	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: is "No matching field found" the exact message you get?
06:21	cgrand	or do you get "field, display, not defined in class, Class1, or its ancestors
06:25	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: hmm I think I got it: how do you _use_ the exposed field?
06:28	cgrand	you have to access it through (.getDisplay this) not through (.display this)
06:39	djpowell	hmm, anybody had any problems with using :load and :gen-class together?
06:40	djpowell	I seem to be getting Var blah/blah is unbound exceptions at runtime for a function that was in the loaded file
06:42	djpowell	Is :load pretty much a straight include
06:44	Lau_of_DK	cgrand: I think my usage was the problem :)
06:45	Lau_of_DK	It was - Thanks alot!!
06:54	djpowell	Ah, I think it might be cause I'm doing something with #=
07:07	djpowell	I think my problem was that #= stuff is read at read time, so having a file that defines a function used in an #= expression, and then tries to use it doesn't work, cause the function doesn't get implemented until after read time
07:07	AWizzArd	the new clojure still does not work with slime, right?
07:08	AWizzArd	I just checked out 1291, but when starting slime it still complains java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: lazy-cons in this context (core.clj:70)
07:09	jwinter	What do you get when you start Clojure's stand-alone Repl?
07:10	AWizzArd	that works
07:10	jwinter	oh
07:10	arbscht	AWizzArd: that will be because swank-clojure has not been updated to work with the newly merged lazy features
07:11	AWizzArd	probably
07:11	arbscht	as rich suggested in the announcement, if you're not interested in updating tools and libraries, best to wait instead of updating your clojure
07:11	AWizzArd	sure
07:13	djpowell	why? is there going to be some back compat added?
07:14	djpowell	oh ok - I see, just give time for tools to get updated
07:15	AWizzArd	ericthorsen: does Enclojure already support the new clojure.jar?
07:15	rfgpfeiffer	djpowell: back compat is (binding [rest next] ...)
07:29	djpowell	Has anyone experimented with definline btw? Is it worth the effort?
07:35	leafw	djpowell: it's just a thin layer over macros, really.
07:35	ericthorsen	AWizzArd: Not yet. As I understand it, Rich is in the midst of the merge (although it may already be up).
07:36	ericthorsen	AWizzArd: We have a release that will go up today and then we are going to integrate the new clojure.jar as the next task
07:38	djpowell	Is it related to the :inline metadata?
07:39	Chouser	djpowell: yes, it's related
07:41	AWizzArd	ericthorsen: sounds good, I will be glad to try out the new Enclojure then.
07:41	AWizzArd	I will try it with the version short before the lazy-merge
07:41	Chouser	a fn with :inline metadata can be treated like a function (passed to 'map' or 'filter', stored in a collection, etc.) in which case the :inline stuff is ignored
07:42	Chouser	however if the fn is called simply, in a context where a macro would work, the :inline expansion is used instead.
07:43	djpowell	Oh ok.
07:44	Chouser	definline produces both from a single macro-like definition, so you don't have to write both versions
07:45	Chouser	it's useful if your fn takes primitive args and passes them along to Java methods or other inline fns. It allows you to avoid a box/unbox round.
07:46	jdz	Chouser: is it something like compiler-macros of CL?
07:46	Chouser	jdz: I don't know CL well enough to say. Got a link?
07:47	jdz	file:///Users/jdz/Documents/Specifications/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#compiler_macro
07:48	jdz	compiler-macros are a cross breed of macros and functions
07:48	jdz	that's why i think definline might be something similar
07:49	jdz	more information on compiler-macro: file:///Users/jdz/Documents/Specifications/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm#define-compiler-macro
07:53	AWizzArd	does Java have bit arrays? Those that store bits in real bits, and not use bytes under the hood to represent a single bit?
07:54	AWizzArd	I want such an array of one billion bits which should eat around 125 MB ram
07:55	jdz	BigInteger
07:55	Chouser	jdz: after some quick reading, I think that CL compiler-macros are used for rather different purposes than :inline fns
07:56	Chouser	jdz: :inline is a little performance hack to work around Java's lack of tagged numbers.
07:57	jdz	Chouser: i have not seen any uses of definline myself (actually now is the first time i first see it exists); can you please point to some uses of it?
07:57	Chouser	the :inline and fn parts are expected to do the very same thing, not different things like compiler-macros
07:58	Chouser	~def +
07:59	Chouser	~def floats
07:59	leafw	[now that is a colol feature of clojurebot]
07:59	leafw	s/colol/cool/
08:00	Chouser	hm, the floats link missed by a few lines.
08:00	Chouser	gotta go, bbl.
08:00	durka42	yeah, some of the links are off. clojurebot could be reading metadata from a slightly out of date build
08:03	jdz	Chouser: well, compiler-macros are expected to do the same thing as the original function; a conforming implementation can freely ignore them. the point of them is to perform some preprocessing if argument types or values are known at compilation time (like, it can rewrite (expt x 2) as (* x x))
08:04	jdz	looks like compiler macros are a higher level abstraction of what :inline metadata tries to provide.
08:05	jdz	or, if somebody has written (expt 2 3) in their code, compiler macro could replace that by 8.
08:06	jdz	would be an order of magnitude more useful if the envorinment access stuff was standardized (could use compiler inferences then, too)
09:28	gnuvince	Is anyone currently working on getting swank-clojure to work with the latest clojure trunk?
09:28	cooldude127	is there a function in clojure that gives the first index of an element in a collection?
09:28	gnuvince	cooldude127: the first index?
09:29	cooldude127	gnuvince: the index of the first occurence of an item
09:29	gnuvince	like (index-of \a "bar") => 1
09:29	gnuvince	Something like that?
09:29	cooldude127	yes
09:29	gnuvince	Not built-in as far as I know.
09:30	gnuvince	,(some (fn [[i e]] (when (= e \a) i)) "bar")
09:30	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Character
09:30	cooldude127	yeah, this is the sucky part about porting from CL. sometimes it has functions we don't
09:30	gnuvince	,(some (fn [[i e]] (when (= e \a) i)) (indexed "bar"))
09:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: indexed in this context
09:30	gnuvince	,(use 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
09:30	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/seq_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/seq_utils.clj on classpath:
09:30	gnuvince	well, I suck at clojurebot it seems
09:30	cooldude127	gnuvince: gotta use your own repl, clojurebot has no contrib
09:31	cooldude127	plus i'm not on trunk
09:31	cooldude127	and clojurebot is
09:32	gnuvince	(some (fn [[i e]] (when (= e \a) i)) (indexed "bar"))
09:32	gnuvince	1
09:32	cooldude127	gnuvince: well maybe i can write my own with that
09:32	cooldude127	cool
09:33	gnuvince	cooldude127: there's also a similar function in Stu's book
09:33	gnuvince	Page 70 in beta 7
09:33	cooldude127	the thing is i also need to make it support a start parameter
09:33	cooldude127	to start looking at a certain point
09:34	durka42	just take a substring of "bar"?
09:35	cooldude127	durka42: i was thinking just do a subseq, then add back the start parameter
09:35	cooldude127	it should be noted i don't plan to use this with strings
09:35	cooldude127	lists
09:35	cooldude127	are more what i'm interested in
09:36	durka42	what are you on besides trunk?
09:36	cooldude127	durka42: older trunk
09:36	cooldude127	before the laziness
09:36	durka42	ah
09:36	cooldude127	i'm not ready
09:37	Chouser	wise
09:37	cooldude127	i've got working clojure, i don't feel like messing with it yet
09:38	Lau_of_DK	swank-clojure and slime still are fitted to the new rev ?
09:39	djpowell	AWizard: Java has java.util.BitSet - will that do?
09:41	AWizzArd	yes, looks good to me
09:41	cooldude127	wait does subseq not do what i think it does?
09:42	AWizzArd	djpowell: do you happen to know if it will try its best to use really just bits under the hood? (BitSet. 1billion) <-- needs +/- 125 MB ram?
09:42	Chouser	cooldude127: works on sorted collections
09:42	Chouser	cooldude127: there's also subvec, but if you're just working on seqs, you probably just want drop
09:43	cooldude127	Chouser: yeah actually figured that out on my own :)
09:43	Chouser	good! :-)
09:43	cooldude127	the haskell experience before clojure was good for this
09:46	cooldude127	sweet i got it working for at least 2 test cases :)
09:48	cooldude127	make that 3
09:49	cooldude127	technomancy's clojure-test-mode is super cool, btw
09:50	cooldude127	buggy as all hell, but at the very least it will run your tests in the repl
10:22	cooldude127	pattern matching is some cool shit
10:23	Chouser	cooldude127: you're doing that in clojure, or something else?
10:23	cooldude127	i'm porting the patmatch.lisp from PAIP to clojure
10:23	Chouser	ok
10:23	cooldude127	for use with the symbolic math stuff
10:24	cooldude127	and it's awesome!
10:29	Aor	Hi. Is there anywhere to download the Clojure documentation, or will I have to scrape the site to get it?
10:29	jbondeson	regex are drugs: you start out in the gateway regex, and the next thing you know you're moving onto the hardcore stuff and you're writing 300+ char regex with multiple negative lookaheads...
10:30	danlarkin	well they /can/ express anything, after all :)
10:30	gnuvince	regexes are turing complete?
10:31	danlarkin	they can express any DFA or NFA
10:31	jbondeson	there are patterns they can't match, like counting.
10:32	Chouser	jbondeson: that's just weak Java regexen. Perl regex can do that.
10:32	Chouser	I think.
10:32	jbondeson	Aor: you're probably going to have to scrape, the docs aren't in svn
10:33	Hun	perl regex are turing complete (even without using eval. you can do recursion)
10:33	gnuvince	When I learned to program, the more I got comfortable with regexes, the more I tried to avoid them.
10:33	danlarkin	that's an implementation detail.. regular expressions themselves (the formal language) are turing complete
10:33	jbondeson	Chouser: no they can't (ex-perl regexer). you can't match x 'Q' chars followed by x+1 'R' characters
10:33	jbondeson	where x is variable
10:33	Hun	but it's better in my experience to use a real parser generator once it gets more complicated than about 150 chars (all regex combined)
10:33	gnuvince	http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/0d05837df1efe075
10:34	Hun	danlarkin: no, they aren't
10:34	Hun	turing complete is chomsky 0. regex cover regular strings (therefor the regular), which is chomsky 3
10:34	Hun	there are a few layers between
10:34	cooldude127	SHIT! clojure doesn't have the dotted pair notation does it?
10:35	Hun	jbondeson: you can do that by using recursion or eval in the regex. but perl's regex aren't regular
10:35	Chouser	jbondeson: hm, even using (?{ }) ?
10:35	jbondeson	Chouser: that's not regex, that's using perl IN the regex
10:35	Chouser	cooldude127: use a vector length 2
10:35	Chouser	jbondeson: well...
10:35	jbondeson	it's not a regex anymore.
10:36	jbondeson	it's code embedded in a regex that fires on a match
10:36	Hun	true
10:36	Chouser	jbondeson: then using your defintion of regex, I concur. :-)
10:36	cooldude127	Chouser: that's not what i mean tho. i'm dealing with the pattern matching, and i'm having a problem where i sort of need to splice in a match (substitute to get (+ 1 2 3) instead of (+ (1 2 3))
10:37	Hun	i did that in CL once by using (apply #'apply list)
10:37	Hun	i'm not sure if that's good style... don't think so
10:37	jbondeson	Chouser: by the same token if you get the results of the match object in java and loop through to determine a match in java. perl just makes a shortcut
10:37	danlarkin	Hun: you're right... seems my knowledge of automata is slipping :(
10:37	cooldude127	Hun: i was looking for an easy syntactical way because these are in a list of rules
10:38	AWizzArd	When someone connects to my compojure program, how can I find out which IP it was?
10:38	Hun	is this lisp or just a string? ergo can you be sure it's well-formed?
10:38	cooldude127	Hun: who you talkin to?
10:38	Hun	cooldude127: to you
10:39	cooldude127	k, well then it's lisp: http://tinyurl.com/d49ddo
10:39	cooldude127	those are the current rules
10:40	cooldude127	i want one that splits up (+ 1 2 3 4 5) into (+ (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4 5)) and so on until i only have to deal with 2 addends
10:41	Hun	i'd use something like a (reduce (lambda (x y) (list '+ x y)))
10:41	cooldude127	Hun: except this is not executable code. these are unevaluated lists of rules
10:41	Hun	hmm. ok, that breaks it down to a right-hanging tree. you could go on from there
10:42	cooldude127	maybe i shouldn't use rules for this part, maybe this is better done in code
10:42	Hun	i'm not sure. can you do a funcall on a symbol in clojure?
10:42	cooldude127	Hun: i think you just resolve the symbol
10:42	Hun	ergo can you (apply '+ '(1 2))
10:43	cooldude127	yes you can do that
10:43	cooldude127	which i didn't know
10:43	cooldude127	you can also do ('+ 1 2)
10:43	Hun	then most of your problems should be solved, together with the reduce
10:44	cooldude127	oh wait, that doesn't work actually
10:44	cooldude127	it returns 2
10:44	cooldude127	not 3
10:44	Hun	(playing zippy) Looks like you are trying to build a math application. Maybe you want to read the corresponding pages in SICP.
10:44	danlarkin	,(#'+ 1 2)
10:44	clojurebot	3
10:44	cooldude127	oh
10:45	Hun	http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html
10:46	danlarkin	don't see why you need to quote it though
10:46	danlarkin	,(apply + [1 2 3])
10:46	clojurebot	6
10:46	cooldude127	danlarkin: wondering if we can call a symbol
10:46	cooldude127	as in something extracted from a quoted list
10:47	Hun	cooldude127: that link's for you. they are doing something similar there
10:47	danlarkin	,(resolve '+)
10:47	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
10:47	danlarkin	,(apply (resolve '+) [1 2 3])
10:47	clojurebot	6
10:48	cooldude127	k
10:48	cooldude127	Hun: yeah i see
10:49	cooldude127	Hun: they're avoiding the problem that i'm dealing with here
10:49	cooldude127	they only deal with two items as well
10:50	Hun	they're doing some really cool stuff in that book. like constructing a numeric tower from scratch
10:50	cooldude127	yeah i've seen some of it
10:50	cooldude127	SICP is pretty awesome
10:52	cooldude127	Hun: damnit, now you've got me wondering whether this rule-based method is the way to go.
10:52	Hun	:)
10:52	cooldude127	i like the elegance of the SICP method. all my logic is in code
10:52	Hun	never underestimate the code some guys wrote 20 years ago
10:52	cooldude127	and to fix this problem, i would just change the way make-sum works
10:52	cooldude127	have it handle this problem
10:53	cooldude127	i've watched the lectures, these guys are brilliant
10:53	cooldude127	sussman was a co-creator of scheme, wasn't he?
10:53	Hun	iirc yes
10:53	Hun	together with the mighty steele
10:53	cooldude127	of course
10:54	cooldude127	hey well i'll bbiab. i'm in class and it just ended so i have to head to the next one
10:54	yason	hey, I have a quick question. Is there a high-level changelog for Clojure somewhere?
10:55	yason	I spent lots of time learning it a few months ago but now there's lots of new stuff and I'd just like to see the diffs, in the sense of what to read about in order to catch up
10:56	jbondeson	yason: the svn log is pretty high level
10:56	jbondeson	though it doesn't give any specifics about how to call the new stuff
10:56	yason	jbondeson: it's not the primary version control that developers use?
11:02	AWizzArd	but don't forget:
11:03	AWizzArd	,('+ 1 2)
11:03	clojurebot	2
11:03	AWizzArd	:)
11:03	cooldude127	ok i'm back, and now for a new git branch to scrap all my old work :)
11:03	Hun	hrhr
11:04	cooldude127	Hun: was that supposed to be haha?
11:04	Hun	something like that
11:04	AWizzArd	I think he means:
11:04	AWizzArd	,('+ 1 2)
11:04	clojurebot	2
11:04	cooldude127	Hun: what's your keyboard layout?
11:05	Hun	dvorak
11:05	AWizzArd	It will try to look up the 1st element in '+ and if it doesn't find it, returns the default of 2
11:05	Hun	hrhr can be typed with one hand, haha needs both
11:05	Aor	Hm, so no-one knows if there's offline documentation? I'll take that as a no then...
11:06	cooldude127	Hun: i thought it could be colemak, what i use, cuz a and r are right next to each other
11:06	AWizzArd	Hun: I use the NEO-Layout. For me it's the same as with dvorak.
11:06	Chouser	yason: you might get such a changelog with the next release.
11:07	Chouser	yason: until then the svn log is probably your best bet
11:07	Hun	also i think of ernie from sesame street :)
11:07	yason	Chouser: ok, that sounds reasonable. I've spotted some experimental stuff such as streams by observing the clojure mailing list but it's probably best to catch-up with non-experimental features first
11:08	Chouser	there's definitely demand for some kind of weekly or monthly high-level update on the world of clojure, but nobody has taken on the task that I know of.
11:08	Chouser	yason: I haven't heard definitively, but I think streams will be abandoned.
11:08	yason	Chouser: there are both low-level and high-level commits in the svn changelog but their number is low enough for one person to skim through them
11:09	yason	Chouser: Part of the constant change :)
11:09	Chouser	Items on the issues page name the svn rev where the change went in, but I don't think there's currently any link the other direction.
11:10	Chouser	It'd be nice to have an automated page for that too.
11:11	yason	Chouser: method calls inside doto seems to require the prefix .dot now...
11:12	yason	I guess most of such changes are found automatically when the program doesn't work. Might take time to spot the documentation change though
11:13	Chouser	this might be useful too: http://clojure.org/space/changes
11:15	yason	Chouser: it is, thank you
11:21	cooldude127	damnit clojure, now i can't name my stuff var? cuz you took it!
11:21	clojurebot	svn rev 1292; fixed (= (lazy-seq nil) nil)
11:25	AWizzArd	is it possible to name something + in ones own namespace?
11:26	cooldude127	AWizzArd: yes, if you shadow the old one i think
11:26	clojurebot	svn rev 1293; fixed bean, patch from Chouser
11:26	cooldude127	AWizzArd: not a wise choice
11:26	cooldude127	but i think you can
11:28	AWizzArd	,(find-doc "shadow")
11:28	clojurebot	nil
11:29	cooldude127	it's something in use i think
11:32	rhickey	So, for lazy destructuring - && ?
11:34	AWizzArd	rhickey: looks good
11:34	danlarkin	we'll have to use that when destructuring a lazy sequence? would that be incompatible with regular seqs?
11:35	rhickey	danlarkin: no, you can use & or && with any sequential thing, the former will force to seq/nil, i.e. it maps to next, the latter will not, i.e. it maps to rest
11:38	danlarkin	rhickey: ah, good. yeah && seems fine to me
11:40	Chouser	that's better than '&rest'?
11:40	Chouser	I don't have an opinion yet, just asking.
11:42	Chouser	:rest
11:44	Bracki	What's clojure's equivalent of Python's dir()?
11:44	Bracki	And how do I inspect a struct?
11:44	Chouser	,(keys (ns-publics 'clojure.zip))
11:44	clojurebot	(lefts down insert-left up next path children vector-zip append-child zipper branch? end? leftmost edit replace insert-right root insert-child prev seq-zip xml-zip make-node rights node right left remove rightmost)
11:45	Chouser	Bracki: I guess it depends on what you're inspecting. For a struct just print it -- either 'prn' or return it at the repl.
11:45	shoover`	Chouser: the variable to capture the rest is usually called rest, so I think [a b && rest] is better than [a b &rest rest]. &rest start to look like CL or elisp
11:46	Bracki	Just returning leads to this: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: PersistentStructMap
11:46	Chouser	shoover`: no, you can't call it rest unless you wan to shadow the builtin fn by that name -- i'd recommend against it.
11:47	Chouser	[a b :rest etc :as all] doesn't look too bad, does it?
11:47	shoover`	Chouser: oh yeah, that :) guess I shouldn't look at clojure.core/and and /or
11:48	Chouser	shoover`: yes, clojure.core shadows builtins too much for my liking.
11:48	shoover`	I'll buy :rest
11:48	Chouser	But I guess it's more dangerous in code that will be edited by mere mortals.
11:49	danlarkin	I like && more than &rest
11:49	Bracki	What's clojure's toString equivalent?
11:49	Chouser	Bracki: sounds like you're calling something instead of just returning a value.
11:49	Chouser	Bracki: str
11:49	cooldude127	Bracki: str
11:50	Bracki	Chouser: so how do I return it?
11:50	Chouser	danlarkin: I think I do too. &rest is kinda ugly. I think I'd prefer :rest or && over &rest
11:51	achim_p	i prefer && too. it stands out more than :rest + it's shorter + it's more consistent (unless we get :next too)
11:51	dreish	Me three.
11:51	Chouser	,(create-struct foo :a :b :c)
11:51	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context
11:51	cgrand	would (fn [x && args] ...) be possible?
11:51	rsynnott1	:rest is a little weird, as there's confusion with key arguments
11:52	Chouser	,(create-struct :a :b :c)
11:52	clojurebot	#<Def clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap$Def@1e03a61>
11:52	Chouser	,(struct (create-struct :a :b :c) 1 2 3)
11:52	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}
11:52	Bracki	,(defstruct thingy :a :b)
11:52	clojurebot	DENIED
11:53	dreish	,(.format System/out "P4 %d %d\n" (into-array [100 100]))
11:53	clojurebot	#<PrintStream java.io.PrintStream@194566d>
11:53	dreish	,(.format System/out "P4 %d %d\n" #=(into-array [100 100]))
11:53	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't embed object in code, maybe print-dup not defined: [Ljava.lang.Integer;@11456c5
12:01	danlarkin	well there's a patch for hiredman, he shouldn't be allowing create-struct
12:01	Chouser	danlarkin: why not?
12:02	Chouser	defstruct has a side effect of creating a Var, but create-struct does not.
12:02	achim_p	lisppaste8: url
12:02	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
12:03	danlarkin	oh... yes... I rescind my comment
12:03	lisppaste8	achim_p pasted "destructuring too eager?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75719
12:04	achim_p	destructuring expressions like [x & xs] seem to do more work than before since full laziness has been introduced ...
12:04	Chouser	with && that ought to be reduced to printing just 1
12:04	Chouser	but going to 3 now is interesting.
12:06	dreish	Does it macroexpand to roughly the same things, plus or minus s/rest/next/?
12:13	achim_p	dreish: & is just a symbol, it's not a macro. the destructuring is happening on the java side of things
12:15	Chouser	,(macroexpand '(let [[a & r] s]))
12:15	clojurebot	(let* [vec__1958 s a (clojure.core/nth vec__1958 0 nil) r (clojure.core/nthnext vec__1958 1)])
12:17	ozy`	,(macroexpand '(let [a b] (f x)))
12:17	clojurebot	(let* [a b] (f x))
12:17	danlarkin	isn't there like a destructure function or something
12:18	danlarkin	~source destructure
12:19	danlarkin	curious, wrong line number
12:20	Chouser	but I don't think that's being used here
12:20	Chouser	(defn f [& ls] (let [[x & xs] ls] x)) only consumes 2 items, as we'd expect for & (as opposed to &&)
12:20	Chouser	,(macroexpand '(fn f [x & xs] x)
12:20	clojurebot	EOF while reading
12:21	Chouser	,(macroexpand '(fn f [x & xs] x))
12:21	clojurebot	(fn* f ([x & xs] x))
12:32	wlr	how about &n -> next and &r -> rest ?
12:32	rhickey	if it's going to include a word, a keyword like :rest is best
12:33	Chouser	I doubt we'll get a gratuitous breaking change making & invalid.
12:33	rhickey	& maps to & in fn
12:33	Chouser	rhickey: are you looking at the fn & being less lazy than before?
12:34	achim_p	,(macroexpand '(fn [x & xs]))
12:34	clojurebot	(fn* ([x & xs]))
12:34	rhickey	Chouser: trying not to think about that - only matters for apply
12:36	Chouser	heh, ok.
12:36	rhickey	the only problem with :rest is its length - doesn't feel like pattern matching
12:38	rhickey	[x : xs] might make Haskellers happy
12:38	rhickey	: is currently not a valid token
12:39	Chouser	looks suspiciously like infix notation. ;-)
12:39	Chouser	though I suppose & does too, come to think of it.
12:39	rhickey	right
12:41	rhickey	except they'd expect [a : b : cs] instead of [a b : cs]
12:41	Chouser	and since i've not heard anybody ask for (x & xs) to do cons, I guess nobody will ask for (x : xs)
12:41	Chouser	ah
12:41	rhickey	:& is valid
12:45	rhickey	if not suggestive of anything
12:47	rhickey	&& kind of suggests you are a step away from &
12:47	achim_p	[x ? xs], [x &? xs] ?
12:47	achim_p	'?' is currently a legal name though
12:49	gnuvince	rhickey: might it not be confused with logical and like in Java?
12:49	jbondeson	i don't think : is the way to go simply because it has those roots in list construction in haskell. something with & would be ok to me (even &:)
12:49	rhickey	gnuvince: oh yeah, Java, sure, it might
12:50	rhickey	jbondeson: but its meaning here would match Haskell's at least for the [x : xs] case
12:51	Chouser	would fn get this too?
12:51	jbondeson	rhickey: true, but then you do get to the issues of : not actually being a list construction. dunno. it's a tough one.
12:51	rhickey	Chouser: what would it mean for fn?
12:51	jbondeson	it would certainly make me feel at home to use :
12:52	rhickey	jbondeson: it's not construction when used in pattern matching, which is similar to this binding situation
12:53	jbondeson	rhickey: it is a deconstruction, but it's the list deconstruction because it matching the construction as x -> x' : xs -> x
12:53	Chouser	(fn [a : b]) would get b as an unforced lazy-seq instead of a forced seq. But of course you asking means I must be missing something...
12:54	Chouser	something like the fact that I'm asking for 'b' at all means I'm likely to at least see if it's empty or not.
12:54	rhickey	Chouser: outside of apply that doesn't matter, unless you want () when no extra args supplied?
12:55	rhickey	(defn foo [&& xs] xs)
12:55	rhickey	(foo) -> ()
12:55	Chouser	right, very little value. I withdraw my request.
12:56	rhickey	I'm not sure it won't come up eventually, lazy apply
12:56	gnuvince	It might be surprising for some people to discover that [x & xs] works in both fn and let, but [x : xs] only works with let.
12:56	gnuvince	I know it would surprise me.
12:57	rhickey	gnuvince: you can't use :as in fn already
12:58	rhickey	Chouser: I wonder about the empty test always being present
12:58	gnuvince	,((fn [x & xs :as all] [x xs all]) [1 2 3])
12:58	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: :as
12:58	gnuvince	Did that change recently?
12:58	gnuvince	user> ((fn [[x & xs :as all]] [x xs all]) [1 2 3])
12:58	gnuvince	[1 (2 3) [1 2 3]]
12:59	gnuvince	oh
12:59	gnuvince	duh
12:59	rhickey	gnuvince: the actual fn args are not a destructuring form
12:59	gnuvince	,((fn [[x & xs :as all]] [x xs all]) [1 2 3])
12:59	clojurebot	[1 (2 3) [1 2 3]]
12:59	gnuvince	rhickey: oh, I get it.
13:08	danlarkin	I still prefer && over all the other suggestions
13:10	danlarkin	I pronounce & as "and-args", and && makes sense to me as "lazy-and-args"
13:10	danlarkin	but that's probably just me
13:15	rhickey	I likes &&, it feels like :rest punishes those who want lazy, slightly
13:16	jbondeson	i can live with &&. i'll just have to stop thinking "boolean-and"
13:16	Chouser	were you thinking bit-and for &
13:16	Chouser	or does Java not have that?
13:16	rhickey	Chouser: it does, good point
13:17	jbondeson	haven't used too much of the destructuring forms, but yeah, years of C have ingrained the ampersands into my brain
13:17	jbondeson	i don't think it's an issue though
13:18	jbondeson	the existance of & makes && logical
13:28	cooldude127	how long was it before scheme got macros?
13:29	cooldude127	cuz as far i can tell, SICP has no trace of them
13:29	Hun	pretty early. but scheme's macros are a whole different case
13:29	cooldude127	oh i know
13:29	Hun	http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/tr356.pdf
13:29	cooldude127	stupid hygienic macros
13:30	jbondeson	whoa now... hygenic macros can be nice
13:30	Hun	your down-to-earth-macros are afaik only implementation specific
13:30	cooldude127	jbondeson: hygienic macros can be REALLY daunting tho
13:31	cooldude127	clojure and CL macros are really easy to wrap your head around by comparison: here's some code, now translate it into some other code
13:33	cooldude127	wow i'm being a good little coder: all my functions have a with-test block around them
13:34	jbondeson	the only problem with that is it makes your functions harder to read.
13:34	cooldude127	only a little, but it's SO CONVENIENT
13:37	jbondeson	when i first opened up a code file with everything wrapped in with-test i said, "holy crap there are no functions defined!"
13:37	cooldude127	haha
13:38	cooldude127	it reminds me of python's doctest, but more useful
13:38	jbondeson	it could probabaly be a bit more readable if the function body is explicitly separated from the test cases by a comment or something
13:38	rhickey	It's not either/or - I'd welcome a hygienic macro package for Clojure
13:40	jbondeson	clojure makes it a little nicer since you don't have to clutter your code with 8billion gensyms
13:40	gregh	I saw an implementation of hygenic macros in terms of lisp macros once
13:40	jbondeson	gregh: that had to be one nasty macro.
13:40	gregh	http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/mbe/mbe-lsp.html
13:44	jbondeson	some times i miss CL code: "(cddadr synruledef)"...
13:46	jbondeson	looking at that code, porting to clojure may not to terrible
13:47	jbondeson	could be an interesting exercise.
13:50	jbondeson	i am just having a horrible typing day.
13:54	cooldude127	is there a standard clojure mechanism for signaling an error?
13:54	cooldude127	do i need to throw an exception?
13:58	jbondeson	i do believe so
13:59	danlarkin	or you can use error-kit!
13:59	jbondeson	though i think it was Chouser that was working on a CL-like error system
13:59	jbondeson	is error-kit functional?
13:59	cooldude127	idk, i just made a function to wrap throwing the exception
13:59	cooldude127	(defn error [& message]
13:59	cooldude127	(throw (Exception. (apply str message))))
13:59	danlarkin	functional as in usable? yes
14:00	jbondeson	hey look at that, error-kit is in contrib
14:00	jbondeson	i missed him adding it in
14:00	danlarkin	there's some documentation in his mailing list posting about it
14:01	jbondeson	haha, i love the "== EXPERIMENTAL ==" comment
14:02	rsynnott1	jbondeson: you could always write your own version of the cadadr-type things
14:02	rsynnott1	(though I'm not sure why anyone would WANT them)
14:02	jbondeson	rsynnott1: nostalgia
14:03	jbondeson	next up: clojure.contrib.pretend-you-are-coding-cl
14:03	cooldude127	haha
14:06	clojurebot	svn rev 1294; fixed reverse and sort to return () on empty coll
14:12	cooldude127	error kit looks cool
14:15	cooldude127	so what is the right way, in a ns declaration, to say use this namespace renamed as this
14:15	cooldude127	do i require it, then alias?
14:17	achim_p	cooldude127: (ns foo (require [clojure.zip :as zip]))
14:17	cooldude127	that's what i was looking for
14:22	Chouser	assert-if-lazy-seq only complains on lazy seqs, not on empty persistent lists.
14:22	Chouser	,(if (reverse nil) :t :f)
14:22	clojurebot	:f
14:23	Chouser	^^ that returns true as of 1294
14:23	Chouser	or :t rather
14:23	Chouser	and no exception thrown.
14:29	rhickey	Chouser: yeah, some of the library stuff still uses LazySeq.EMPTY, like ASeq.more(), but long-term, that's not going to be the case, will eventually use PersistentList.EMPTY. That is also its own type - PersistentList.EmptyList - we could check for that too I guess
14:30	cooldude127	Chouser: nice work with error-kit, i like
14:30	Chouser	cooldude127: using any continues yet?
14:31	cooldude127	Chouser: nope, this is a really simple use
14:31	Chouser	ok
14:31	cooldude127	i have one defined error and it's only raised from one place
14:31	cooldude127	and there's no real way to recover
14:31	cooldude127	so yeah, about as basic as it can be
14:32	Chouser	I don't know if I'll be comfortable calling it non-experimental until I (or somebody at least) has a real-world use case involving continues.
14:32	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
14:32	clojurebot	PONG!
14:32	cooldude127	haha
14:33	Chouser	rhickey: so LazySeq.EMPTY would go away?
14:34	rhickey	Chouser: I think so
14:35	Chouser	and nil punning on something that returns PersistentList-or-nil is ok, so the assert would indeed be more useful if it checked for PersistentList.EmptyList as well.
14:36	Chouser	bleh, tea bag burst.
14:37	danlarkin	that'll teach you to use tea bags
14:39	jbondeson	clearly another point in the argument for coffee and against tea
14:40	danlarkin	nah, I just think he should brew loose leaf tea
14:40	slashus2	Just cut open the tea bag and put it in a coffee maker.
14:48	rsynnott1	and then never use the coffee maker for coffee again, as it will taste odd
14:49	rsynnott1	(tea likes to lay down layers of basically unremovable tannin)
14:50	rhickey	danlarkin: yes, loose tea rules
14:51	jbondeson	i'm surrounded by tea lovers! D=
14:52	Chouser	I've considered loose tea, though never very seriously. I'd need to do research. :-)
14:53	jbondeson	Chouser: if i'm reading this right, 'handle' + 'continue-with' are analogous to 'handle-bind' + 'invoke-restart', right?
14:53	rhickey	my supplier: http://www.specialteas.com/
14:53	rsynnott1	just get a teapot; it's fairly simple
14:54	rsynnott1	(and then you can follow the memory aid 'one spoon per person and one for the pot' which I always found slightly creepy; apparently the pot requires a sacrifice of tea leaves)
14:54	danlarkin	I shop here: http://goodleaftea.com/ :)
14:55	danlarkin	Chouser: once you taste fresh tea you'll never go back
14:56	Chouser	can I still put cream in it?
14:57	rhickey	Chouser: the strong Assam black teas take milk just fine
14:58	danlarkin	I like to take breakfast teas with milk
14:59	slashus2	http://www.adagio.com/ <-- They make some good tea. I use that little tea infuser on the front page.
15:00	Chouser	So CachedSeq and FnSeq went away, but LazyCons did not?
15:01	rhickey	Chouser: it will
15:01	Chouser	probably right after I update the graph?
15:01	Chouser	:-)
15:03	rhickey	gone
15:06	clojurebot	svn rev 1295; got rid of LazyCons
15:06	Chouser	are streams dead?
15:07	hiredman	rhickey: zip/next is throwing LazySeq used in 'if', sometimes, when using a seq-zip
15:08	defn	,(assoc [1 2 3] 3 4)
15:08	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
15:08	defn	that is so bad ass
15:08	cooldude127	is it completely evil to want to take over the + and * bindings to add symbolic math to them?
15:08	defn	cooldude127: i think the short answer is yes
15:09	defn	technomancy: 14:07:15 < cooldude127> is it completely evil to want to take over the + and * bindings to add symbolic math to them?
15:09	mrsolo	hmm how outdated is programming clojure?
15:09	defn	mrsolo: as in the book?
15:09	mrsolo	yes
15:09	hiredman	mrsolo: it gets updated
15:09	defn	it isn't outdated. it's not even released yet.
15:09	cooldude127	defn: i mean it would preserve the old functionality when given numbers, just do it different when it gets symbols and stuff
15:09	defn	you can get the beta though
15:09	hiredman	cooldude127: I think it is fine, that is what namespaces are for
15:09	mrsolo	ok
15:09	defn	cooldude127: yeah that's cool
15:09	cooldude127	WOOO
15:09	mrsolo	thanks
15:10	defn	mrsolo: no problem
15:10	rsynnott1	mrsolo: it was updated about two days ago, I think
15:10	cooldude127	this means i can piggyback off of eval and stuff
15:10	rsynnott1	(actually, pragmatic programming's weird release style is particularly suited to clojure for that reason)
15:10	defn	yeah
15:10	defn	i really like the book tbh
15:11	defn	the book is fairly short, and if you are a lisp coder you wont have a problem
15:11	technomancy	cooldude127: I'm not seeing the clojure-test minor mode getting invoked for every buffer like you were mentioning
15:11	defn	however for me, it seems like a good two runs of the book start to finish is a requirement
15:11	defn	luckily it's only about 250pgs
15:11	cooldude127	technomancy: hmm, idk my emacs has been running for a while, i'll check it fresh later
15:12	cooldude127	technomancy: the rest of it is still buggy. overlays don't always happen
15:12	technomancy	I got errors highlighted differently now.
15:12	cooldude127	/ aren't timed right
15:12	mrsolo	cough my lisp/scheme whatever is actually better than java.. can anybody recommend some java api books?
15:12	cooldude127	oh cool
15:12	technomancy	oh, one known problem is that Cc
15:12	technomancy	* that C-c ' won't work if you're on the first char of the overlay
15:12	technomancy	you have to be further into it
15:12	defn	son of a bitch weavejester!
15:12	cooldude127	technomancy: well even that isn't working. the overlay always seems to show up on C-c C-, if it is there
15:12	defn	http://github.com/weavejester/clojure-over-ajax/tree/master
15:12	defn	stole my idea
15:13	technomancy	oh nice.
15:13	hiredman	rhickey: jumped the gun on zip/next, moving up to the tip of trunk fixed it
15:13	technomancy	should put up an interactive tutorial like http://tryruby.hobix.com
15:13	defn	yeah i was just about to buy tryclojure.com
15:14	hiredman	yay! my pet macro works again!
15:16	technomancy	cooldude127: the slime-needs-to-be-loaded-first problem is still there, but I think I know the workaround
15:16	cooldude127	what is it?
15:16	technomancy	need to use slime-connected-hook
15:16	cooldude127	oh
15:16	technomancy	since it's async
15:16	technomancy	all this callback stuff is crazy... it feels like I'm writing JS.
15:16	cooldude127	lol
15:17	jwinter	are you working on slime-clojure?
15:17	technomancy	jwinter: sort of
15:17	jwinter	errr swank-clojure
15:17	technomancy	jwinter: I'm building a tool on top of it
15:17	defn	technomancy: the install tool?
15:17	technomancy	no, a test runner: http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/tree/clojure-test-mode
15:17	defn	oh cool!
15:18	technomancy	the install tool is more or less done, I think.
15:18	defn	that's a great project technomancy
15:18	technomancy	modulo bug fixes
15:18	technomancy	it's still pretty rough around the edges
15:18	defn	so is production-ready code
15:18	defn	;)
15:18	jwinter	technomancy: cool
15:18	cooldude127	WOO! i just took over +, and it still workes
15:18	cooldude127	*works
15:19	technomancy	brb; lunch
15:19	cooldude127	and it does cool stuff
15:19	defn	technomancy: you need to write a testing framework and then write a book on doing TDD with it
15:19	defn	... profit.
15:23	cooldude127	holy shit i now have clojure understanding symbols in math
15:23	cooldude127	this is awesome
15:24	defn	cooldude127: cant wait to see your code
15:24	lisppaste8	cooldude127 pasted "i love life (symbolic math)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75730
15:25	defn	im very interested in doing algebra/calculus with clojure
15:25	cooldude127	defn: this is the result
15:25	cooldude127	i'll get the current code online and post a link
15:27	defn	cool
15:28	cooldude127	defn: started out as porting code from SICP, but this made it branch out into a whole new world of awesomeness
15:28	cooldude127	http://tinyurl.com/bg3365
15:28	cooldude127	there is the code
15:29	cooldude127	if you have a variable that you're going to use a lot, you could clean up the expressions by doing something like (def x 'x)
15:30	defn	brilliant
15:30	cooldude127	oh man this is fun
15:31	cooldude127	now to make it know a few more rules
15:32	cooldude127	if the cond in deriv gets out of hand, i might turn that into a map of predicates to functions for results
15:32	cooldude127	you know, a rule system that doesn't suck
15:32	Chouser	new graph up: http://tinyurl.com/clojure-classes
15:34	gnuvince	Time for Rich to move some classes around ;)
15:38	jbondeson	no, no, he'll wait until Chouser fixes ClojureScript as well.
15:38	jbondeson	you know, two birds with one stone
15:38	Chouser	heh
15:39	rhickey	Chouser: nice
15:39	Chouser	we all wonder that at times
15:39	rhickey	hah
15:40	rhickey	!
15:40	Chouser	Chousuke's idea of using "badges" insted of trying to make every interface a box with arrows has helped a lot
15:40	danlarkin	haha, I think he meant we all wonder that of ourselves, but I guess it works both ways
15:40	Chouser	it allows you to see the ref stuff at the bottom right, vs. the collection stuff above, and also the points of interaction
15:41	Chouser	danlarkin: no, he understood me correctly. :-)
15:41	danlarkin	:-o
15:41	cooldude127	WOO! clojure now understands the power rule of differentiation
15:42	cooldude127	math.symbolic> (deriv (* 2 (** x 2)) x)
15:42	cooldude127	(* 2 (* 2 x))
15:42	cooldude127	not completely simplified, but it knows the answer!
15:42	rhickey	google group now over 1500 members!
15:42	jbondeson	now try (deriv (sin (**x 2)))
15:42	cooldude127	jbondeson: :(
15:42	jbondeson	>=D
15:42	jwinter	Chouser: new graph looks great, nice job.
15:42	Chouser	jwinter: thanks!
15:43	defn	Chouser: yeah im checking it out right now
15:43	defn	very nice
15:44	cooldude127	ah crap, how is this thing going to understand the chain rule
15:46	jbondeson	Chouser: i think my error-kit question got lost in the sea of tea-talk earlier.
15:46	jbondeson	"if i'm reading this right, 'handle' + 'continue-with' are analogous to 'handle-bind' + 'invoke-restart', right?"
15:47	Chouser	ah, i saw that, but forgot to follow up, sorry.
15:47	Chouser	Let me go look at the CL docs for a sec...
15:47	cooldude127	nvm, i made it understand the chain rule :)
15:48	jbondeson	that should be "handler-bind" not "handle-bind"
15:48	defn	Chouser: that's great man
15:48	defn	err cooldude127
15:49	Chouser	jbondeson: invoke-restart is more like continue
15:49	cooldude127	defn: yeah, hang on i'll post some more examples in a minute
15:49	Chouser	jbondeson: I didn't see a CL equiv. of continue-with
15:50	Chouser	jbondeson: note that continue-with doesn't take the name of a continue/restart, just a value.
15:50	jbondeson	Chouser: aahhhh
15:50	cooldude127	defn: note that it only understands chain rule on a case by case basis.
15:53	jbondeson	Chouser: i'm trying to see if error-kit can do an automatic restart (continue) without a stack unwind. bind-continue looked close
15:55	jbondeson	condition and restart logic is all muddled in my head from lack of recent use
15:55	Chouser	bind-continue will do a partial stack unwind
15:56	Chouser	up to the point of the bind-continue, instead of all the way up to the handler/continue-with that calls it.
15:56	danlarkin	hey I know this is pretty far off topic, but what part of speech would "these" be considered in the following sentence: "I've determined these documents to be invalid."? it's not a verb, noun, pronoun, adverb, conjunction, interjection, proposition... so does that make it an adjective?
15:57	jbondeson	Chouser: hmmm... interesting. wonder how CL manages a no-unwind
15:57	Chouser	jbondeson: the only construct currently in error-kit that does no stack unwind on a raise is continue-with
15:58	Chouser	an I messed up earlier. bind-continue is called by continue, not continue-with. :-P
15:58	Chouser	and
15:59	Chouser	jbondeson: Unless I'm misunderstanding CL (quite possible!) it does do an unwind to the handler-bind given by an invoke-restart
16:00	Chouser	I was trying to do the same thing there.
16:01	Chousuke	danlarkin: it's a demonstrative, says wikipedia
16:01	Chouser	danlarkin: I vote adjective: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/this[2]
16:01	shoover`	demonstrative pronouns?
16:02	danlarkin	Chousuke: link?
16:02	Chousuke	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonstrative
16:06	danlarkin	so wikipedia says it's a demonstrative determiner
16:07	technomancy	is anyone currently working on fixing swank-clojure to work with the lazy branch?
16:07	technomancy	I have a sinking feeling that it won't happen unless I do it. =)
16:07	jbondeson	Chouser: i believe you are correct, however, handler-bind will call the provided function without unwinding the stack, which along with restarts taking arbitrary arguments allows for in-place recovery.
16:07	danlarkin	but merriam webster indicates it's an adjective, sigh
16:08	defn	Any ideas on doing formant analysis on parts of speech?
16:09	Chouser	jbondeson: where does the return value of the provided function go?
16:09	danlarkin	Hm, I think demonstrative determiners /are/ adjectives... adjective it is then.
16:10	shoover`	technomancy: I bet it will happen in a week or two, but you can't know when for sure
16:10	jbondeson	Chouser: i belive it is disregarded, as typically they are used to call a restart. but i haven't looked at the spec
16:10	Chouser	so where does control go after invoke-restart?
16:11	technomancy	shoover`: I've had some patches to clojure-mode that have been sitting around for a few weeks. (same maintainer)
16:11	Chouser	My impression was that it goes to the handler-bind, and returns from there.
16:11	Chouser	which seems like the definition of a stack unwind to that point.
16:12	jbondeson	i belive it continues from the restart-case
16:12	Chouser	I suppose I could actually write some CL code and see what it does. grimace
16:13	jbondeson	(i'm refreshing my memory with the exception handler chapter from practical cl)
16:13	Chouser	hey, me too.
16:14	defn	i need to read PCL
16:14	Chouser	"programming clojure" is more fun.
16:14	defn	did you do PCL before clojure though?
16:14	Chouser	no
16:14	defn	hmmm
16:15	defn	what langs are you familiar with
16:15	jbondeson	the last time i used that was for repairing out of context objects from very high up in the stack
16:15	Chouser	I'm still messing up my use of CL terminology
16:16	defn	im having some trouble getting started
16:16	defn	im just at the curve right now i think
16:16	defn	just need to keep marinating myself in it and ill start to understand it
16:17	jbondeson	Chouser: yeah, i am almost positive now that the restart-case will allow for immediate execution of a restart-case when a handler-bind is defined for the error
16:17	Chouser	handler-bind is up high, uses invoke-restart to send control to a restart-case, which is higher than where the 'error' was raised.
16:17	technomancy	defn: it can be tempting to try something non-trivial as your first project; I found it helpful to not be too ambitious.
16:17	cooldude127	how did it take me so long to find "git add -p"
16:17	Chouser	doesn't that mean that the stack unwinds from error up to the restart-case?
16:17	cooldude127	it reminds me of darcs record, and i loved it
16:17	technomancy	cooldude127: that's nothing; you should see magit.
16:17	cooldude127	technomancy: i use magit
16:17	cooldude127	technomancy: i know what it does
16:18	defn	technomancy: yeah i just have never programmed in a language like this, so i dont know what ambitious is
16:18	cooldude127	technomancy: but i don't know how to split hunks in magit
16:18	jbondeson	Chouser: restart-case throws the error
16:18	defn	and im still struggling to understand how to keep things functional, etc.
16:18	defn	id idnt know anything about persistence or immutable data until clojure
16:18	technomancy	cooldude127: yeah, that's the one thing that's missing for me
16:18	defn	i mean i suppose i knew of them, but not by those terms
16:18	Chouser	jbondeson: doesn't the original detection of the error happen below that?
16:18	cooldude127	technomancy: i discovered that just now, and it's perfect!
16:18	cemerick	rhickey: I seem to remember you saying that at some point after AOT was in place, that generated classnames would become deterministic -- e.g. user/foo would compile into a class like user$foo, which would make invoking arbitrary fns from java-land pretty easy. Is that still in the works, or did I misunderstand something?
16:19	technomancy	defn: what languages have you used before?
16:19	Chouser	jbondeson: like the first example under "Condition Handlers", the def of parse-log-entry
16:20	defn	technomancy: Ruby, C++, Limbo
16:20	Chouser	jbondeson: the error is thrown right there with (error ...) isn't it?
16:20	jbondeson	Chouser: right, i believe you are correct
16:20	defn	I've played with a lot more, but not as seriously as those
16:20	jbondeson	Chouser: i guess the throwing of the error there just makes it the immediate restart
16:20	technomancy	defn: I'm working on an introductory screencast to Clojure
16:21	defn	Chouser: I'm just struggling with the API -- I don't really know how to put the pieces together
16:21	rhickey	cemerick: the classnames are not a path to the fn object in any case. proxy names are now deterministic
16:21	technomancy	should be ready in a week or so
16:21	jbondeson	Chouser: so if you have an error further down it will have to wind back to the restart-case
16:21	defn	technomancy: is that going to be peepcode?
16:21	jbondeson	I think i finally understand this.
16:21	Chouser	jbondeson: yes, ok, I think that's exactly how error-kit works.
16:21	technomancy	defn: yeah
16:21	defn	can i beta it if it is? ;)
16:21	cemerick	ah, it was proxy names!
16:21	technomancy	it won't be long...
16:22	defn	technomancy: here is a question that i dont really know the answer to: Is learning clojure a good idea for someone who might not need concurrency or some of the other benefits?
16:22	Chouser	cemerick: you see that's been done?
16:23	defn	i mean, is using clojure going to be beneficial for doing basic stuff?
16:23	Chouser	defn: yes
16:23	cooldude127	defn: clojure is a good overall language
16:23	technomancy	defn: depends on how basic, I guess.
16:23	cemerick	Chouser: I'm not working with proxies at all, I don't think.
16:23	defn	i just see a lot of people using it for doing complex, expensive calculations
16:23	Chouser	cemerick: oh, ok.
16:23	defn	so i start to wonder if im playing with something that is beyond what i need
16:24	cooldude127	defn: there's plenty of basic stuff that can be done in clojure
16:24	technomancy	defn: well learning to express your problems in functional terms is valuable no matter what your needs.
16:24	cooldude127	agreed
16:24	defn	technomancy: yeah ill buy that for sure
16:24	defn	im taking calculus concurrently with this, so that's been kind of interesting
16:24	cooldude127	defn: what kind of calculus?
16:24	cemerick	Chouser: that may change as the java portion of our codebase gets smaller, and now that proxy construction isn't reflective
16:24	defn	cooldude127: just differential
16:24	vjr	lisps are new again with clojure!
16:25	defn	analytic geometry
16:25	defn	etc.
16:25	cooldude127	defn: wait, like derivatives and integrals and stuff?
16:25	defn	yea
16:25	technomancy	you might still end up using ruby for putting up a simple CRUD web app, but it's always good to have access to more tools.
16:25	Chouser	defn: you liked that graph? Take a look at the clojure code that produced it. no STM, no multithreading. It's the kind of thing I would have done in perl/python/ruby before.
16:25	jbondeson	Chouser: now all i have to do is translate all that back into the functions in error-kit
16:25	cooldude127	defn: my symbolic math is probably interesting to you isn't it?
16:25	technomancy	since the kinds of things clojure is good for are generally more interesting that simple CRUD web apps. =)
16:25	defn	Chouser: that makes me happy to hear :)
16:26	defn	cooldude127: yeah it is -- i would like to write something like that because i did something similar in C++ with my Logic course
16:26	Chouser	defn: there's one tiny little macro that would have been too much trouble to try to do in those langs (except maybe ruby).
16:26	jbondeson	think i may just translate all those function in practical cl into error-kit...
16:26	defn	cooldude127: it is nice to program your way to understanding
16:26	defn	cooldude127: that way you learn a lang and math at the same time
16:26	cooldude127	defn: that's what i'm doing in calculus 3 (which is basically linear algebra)
16:26	Chouser	jbondeson: yeah, well -- it could use the CL names, but I didn't want to create any false expectations. the arg lists for example don't work exactly the same way, I don't think.
16:27	defn	cooldude127: i saw your other source files for your symbolic math
16:27	cooldude127	defn: look at the math/linalg* stuff in my clojure-code repo, i coded a lot of that stuff in class while we learned the concept
16:27	defn	lots of linalg
16:27	defn	:)
16:27	vjr	anyone ever read the Edward Lee paper on "The Problem with Threads"?
16:27	jbondeson	technomancy: you got swank-clojure fixed yet, you know now that you know it's you or nothin? ;)
16:27	cooldude127	defn: if i don't do it, i won't learn it
16:27	defn	cooldude127: yeah, and you learn clojure in the process!
16:28	jbondeson	Chouser: i think you're absolutly right to have distinct names
16:28	defn	when im sitting there doing problems in math I think: you know, I could just code this and understand every case pretty easily
16:28	technomancy	jbondeson: give me a few days.
16:28	technomancy	jbondeson: I want to finish this testing thing first. =)
16:28	jbondeson	technomancy: DAYS?!? =P
16:28	defn	cooldude127: you're too smart for 18
16:28	cooldude127	defn: well, that wasn't my first experience in clojure, but you could say that you're always learning a language, no matter how much
16:28	defn	im 23 and am just taking calculus I
16:28	defn	i had a very bad public school education in math
16:28	cooldude127	defn: i'm a freshman at georgia tech
16:28	defn	ah, congrats
16:29	cooldude127	thanks :)
16:29	technomancy	jbondeson: I'm sure it would go faster with help. =)
16:29	defn	im a junior at UW Madison (technically)
16:29	defn	but i have at least 3 more years of study
16:29	cooldude127	oh
16:29	defn	i just transfered into their Computer Science program
16:29	defn	I have to learn Java which sucks, so I found Clojure and here I am
16:30	defn	I'm going to try and talk my professor into letting me do my homework in Clojure
16:30	defn	:)
16:30	Chouser	jbondeson: ok, thanks for the vote of confidence. :-)
16:30	cooldude127	defn: well, the problem is there aren't too many good choices for a data structures class like what i'm in, since the nice languages don't have low-level enough data structures (like arrays)
16:30	leafw	would be such a pun if all these java schools suddently turned into lisp schools via clojure.
16:30	cooldude127	the better languages do too much for you
16:31	vjr	java is great for writing real langs like ruby and clojure - maybe. :)
16:31	Chouser	jbondeson: I'd be very interested to know if you get a real working case using continue/bind-continue
16:31	cooldude127	defn: but i've done certain homework assignments in clojure before i did them in java just to wrap my head around it
16:31	cooldude127	made me understand AVL trees
16:31	cooldude127	and red-black (even tho they weren't assigned) ;)
16:32	defn	i need to understand java better just for interop purposes
16:32	defn	i was in AP computer programming and did some J# stuff
16:32	cooldude127	defn: yeah it helps
16:32	defn	(this is in high school)
16:32	cooldude127	ewwww
16:32	defn	but i dont remember much
16:32	cooldude127	defn: yeah we did real java in AP comp sci
16:32	cooldude127	but i knew it before that
16:32	cooldude127	and nobody learned anything
16:32	defn	Yeah I finally talked my professor into letting me do C for 2nd semester
16:33	defn	because I was a rowdy little anti-establishment, fuck M$ kid
16:33	cooldude127	oh lol
16:33	cooldude127	well so was i, i just used java on the mac :)
16:33	defn	haha nice
16:33	defn	brb 2seconds
16:35	vjr	so who here has done threaded apps?
16:35	rhickey	I have
16:35	vjr	ok! we all know you have..
16:35	cooldude127	lol
16:36	leafw	vjr: I have as well.
16:36	vjr	have you done the same app or two in clojure as a comparison?
16:36	shoover`	I'm looking at a lock right now and wondering why it's there!
16:36	leafw	vjr: for some small ones, yes.
16:36	mrsolo	i have but no
16:37	leafw	vjr: clojure wins flat: no verbosity, no forgetting locks, trivial creation of Runnables and Callables.
16:37	vjr	leafw: and? what was the verdict. Pretend rich isn't here.
16:37	vjr	leafw: you answered thanks.
16:38	leafw	vjr: and pmap is just the right thing. If only I could specify the maximum number of cores that it uses.
16:38	leafw	would need a global mvar max-cores and then use a binding around it or something.
16:39	vjr	leafw: very cool. I asked this earlier. Has anyone read the Edward Lee from Berkley paper on the problem with threads?
16:39	leafw	vjr: I use threads, I am happy that someelse designs them. So no.
16:40	vjr	I was wondering what some here might think where clojure fits in that paper..
16:40	vjr	I'll post it to the mailing list.
16:41	leafw	rhickey: haven't seen any enhancement proposal to regulat max-threads for pmap. Would you consider it?
16:42	leafw	a global var would do; then with a binding one could modify it.
16:46	vjr	as i read that paper, it gets better and better. Quite a few remarks about Java.
16:49	rhickey	leafw: I don't like the global var idea, but am amenable to controlling the threads
16:52	jbondeson	technomancy: how are you planning on debugging swank-clojure?
16:52	technomancy	jbondeson: grep -r rest ?
16:52	defn	,(defn func [x y z k] (assoc [x y z] z k))
16:52	clojurebot	DENIED
16:52	technomancy	I haven't really thought about it much. =)
16:52	Lau_of_DK	Is Slime/swank-clojure still broken in latest versions ?
16:52	jbondeson	haha
16:53	jbondeson	Lau_of_DK: yeah, unless someone updated in the last hour
16:53	defn	why doesn't this work?
16:53	Lau_of_DK	k
16:53	defn	(defn func [x y z k] (assoc [x y z] z k))
16:53	defn	(func [6 7 8 10])
16:54	cooldude127	defn: (fun 6 7 8 10)
16:54	cooldude127	or add an extra set of brackets
16:54	jbondeson	technomancy: i did a very naive replace of (lazy-cat ..) -> (lazy-seq (cat ...)) and ended up with no errors in swank, but slime went into infinite loops, so i was just curious if you had any ideas how to debug that
16:54	cooldude127	(defn funct [[x y z k]] ...)
16:54	cooldude127	jbondeson: i think that's (lazy-seq (concat ...))
16:54	jbondeson	err cons
16:55	jbondeson	is what i meant
16:55	defn	cooldude127: #<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: user$func>
16:55	cooldude127	oh
16:55	technomancy	jbondeson: the lack of a test suite is frustrating.
16:55	durka42	,(doc concat)
16:55	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
16:55	cooldude127	defn: is that the original, or with what i said?
16:55	durka42	what is this?
16:55	technomancy	jbondeson: If you fork it on github to start the effort, I'll jump in once I get a chance.
16:55	durka42	=> (doc concat)
16:55	durka42	#<CompilerException java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/Compiler$TheVarExpr (REPL:14)>
16:56	defn	cooldude127: with what you said
16:56	technomancy	probably announce it on the list as well
16:56	cooldude127	defn: with both, or just one?
16:56	defn	both and just one
16:56	jbondeson	technomancy: that would require me to not suck with git, but if i get anywhere will do
16:56	cooldude127	either one alone should work
16:56	technomancy	jbondeson: eh; github can hold your hand through it. =)
16:56	defn	cooldude127: (defn func [[x y z k]] (assoc [x y z] z k))
16:56	defn	(func [6 7 8 10])
16:56	jbondeson	will it make me warm hot chocolate when i get scared?
16:57	defn	cooldude127: #<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>
16:57	cooldude127	defn: i know why
16:57	cooldude127	defn: z = 8, so assoc is trying to place 10 at index 8 of the vector
16:57	cooldude127	but the vector is only 3 elements
16:58	cooldude127	but anyway, i need to go eat some food
16:58	technomancy	jbondeson: it'll probably pour you some scotch if I know the github guys.
16:59	jbondeson	technomancy: it better be 18 year Glenmorangie...
17:12	lisppaste8	hiredman pasted "amazingly frustrating zippers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75738
17:13	jbondeson	holy lazy-seq in if hunting batman
17:15	durka42	when do you turn that flag on?
17:15	durka42	is it when you compile clojure, or when you run programs
17:15	durka42	the assert-on-lazy-seq flag
17:16	Chouser	durka42: when you compile clojure
17:19	hiredman	I cannot seem to make a general function that takes the loc (in zipper speak) of a � and removes the the element preceding it(p) the elementing following it(f) and replaces the � with some kind of list containing p and f
17:19	hiredman	ugh
17:20	hiredman	I always get left over bits hanging around
17:24	jbondeson	progress... i got slime to show up
17:25	jbondeson	but i get an initialization error...
17:29	Bracki	In a list of structs how can I access a specific struct?
17:33	durka42	nth?
17:38	Bracki	Well, wrong question. How do I check if something is in a list?
17:38	Chouser	Bracki: if you put your structs in a set instead, then you can call the set as a function.
17:38	technomancy	,(doc clojure.contrib.seq-utils/includes?)
17:38	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: clojure.contrib.seq-utils/includes? in this context
17:39	technomancy	I call BS; there's totally an includes? function in seq-utils.
17:40	Bracki	Well to model a graph would you use a map of maps? I currently have a map of lists.
17:41	Bracki	The lists contain the neighbors.
17:42	Bracki	Valid approach or what could be improved?
17:43	Chouser	does the order of the neighbors matter?
17:46	Bracki	No.
17:46	Bracki	Not yet.
17:46	jbondeson	hmmm.. what does the 'and' used with a lazy-seq get you? i'm assuming a wrong result, right?
17:46	jbondeson	-the
17:46	Chouser	Then I'd recommend a map of sets, which would allow quick answers to the question "is x your neighbor".
17:47	Chouser	,(and (map inc ()) :wanted?)
17:47	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: LazySeq used in 'if'
17:47	technomancy	jbondeson: yeah, that's suspect since nil won't get returned
17:48	technomancy	jbondeson: you probably want to check for empty?
17:48	technomancy	jbondeson: or switch to using next instead of rest maybe?
17:49	jbondeson	technomancy: false positive, that will trip a LazySeq in if condition
17:49	technomancy	oh you mean it will cause it to get realized?
17:49	jbondeson	it'll trip an assertion
17:50	jbondeson	trying to track down this last exception...
17:50	jbondeson	the repl works, it just aborts every slime action like tab-completion and doc lookup
17:54	Chouser	,(and (seq (map inc ())) :wanted?)
17:54	clojurebot	nil
17:54	Chouser	,(and (seq (map inc '(4))) :wanted?)
17:54	clojurebot	:wanted?
18:02	hiredman	,(use 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
18:02	clojurebot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/seq_utils__init.class or clojure/contrib/seq_utils.clj on classpath:
18:02	hiredman	:\
18:03	lisppaste8	bracki pasted "This doesn't work yet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75741
18:03	Bracki	Can somebody help me to get this recursive? (find-path) should return an empty set otherwise conj the found value to itself.
18:04	Bracki	Or do I have to pass the set containing the found edges as an argument?
18:05	cooldude127	Bracki: i'm still learning graphs
18:05	cooldude127	:)
18:05	hiredman	Bracki: instead of calling find-path recursively you would use recur
18:06	Bracki	ah. how does that work?
18:06	hiredman	well, you just replace (find-path ...) with (recur ...)
18:07	hiredman	and you do need to carry around the set containing the result
18:07	gridlock	is the current working directory included in the classpath for java by default?
18:07	durka42	no
18:07	durka42	add . to the classpath to include it
18:07	hiredman	Bracki: have you looked at (for ...)?
18:08	hiredman	actually
18:08	hiredman	I think you can use reduce
18:11	Bracki	Does clojure support optional arguments that have a default value?
18:12	hiredman	no, but you can use hash destructuring to much the same effect
18:13	Chouser	not directly, but you can do (fn foo ([x] (foo x 2 3)) ([x y] (foo x y 3)) ([x y z] ...main body here...))
18:14	hiredman	that would be a simpler way
18:15	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys a :or {a 2}}] a) {:a 1})
18:15	hiredman	hmmm
18:15	Chouser	heh
18:15	hiredman	wow
18:15	hiredman	the jvm crashed hard
18:15	hiredman	# SIGSEGV (0xb) at pc=0x2817b39e, pid=55066, tid=0x28201c00
18:15	cooldude127	lol
18:16	leafw	j #gnome
18:16	gridlock	i seem to be quite confused as to how the lib facility is supposed to work; the docs make it seem like it should be straight forward
18:17	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys a :or {a 2}}] a) {:a 1})
18:17	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Symbol
18:17	gridlock	i have a path net.brehaut.mylib
18:17	gridlock	and inside it i have a file mylib.clj
18:17	gridlock	(sorry net/brehaut/mylib)
18:17	gridlock	the file has (ns net.brehaut.mylib)
18:17	cooldude127	gridlock: you probably just want net/brehaut/mylib.clj
18:18	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys [a] :or {a 2}}] a) {:a 1})
18:18	clojurebot	1
18:18	hiredman	,((fn [{:keys [a] :or {a 2}}] a) {:b 3})
18:18	clojurebot	2
18:18	gridlock	cooldude127: should i then be able to use require ?
18:19	gridlock	eg (require net.brehaut.mylib)
18:19	hiredman	(require 'net.brehaut.mylib)
18:19	cooldude127	gridlock: as long as it's on your classpath
18:19	hiredman	and whatever directory "net" is in needs to be in your classpath
18:19	gridlock	hiredman: aha! thanks :)
18:19	hiredman	if you use :require inside (ns ...) you don't need the quote
18:28	Bracki	Oh well, I'm not able to do this. Too late.
18:33	technomancy	cooldude127: pushed out a new rev of clojure-test-mode; should handle launching slime automatically
18:33	technomancy	I am seeing an intermittent failure to highlight errors though.
18:34	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah that's confusing the hell out of me
18:34	technomancy	would love to have some more eyes on it, maybe see if you can get it consistently reproducible
18:34	technomancy	cooldude127: this snippet may help with debugging: (map #(cons (str (:name (meta %))) (:status (meta %))) (vals (ns-interns ns)))
18:34	technomancy	it should show all the test-result-metadata for all the vars in the namespace
18:38	cooldude127	technomancy: in a minute i will take a look
18:41	cooldude127	technomancy: what's been changed in clojure-mode.el?
18:43	technomancy	cooldude127: now after slime connects it will automatically enable slime-mode for any clojure-mode buffers
18:44	cooldude127	sweet
18:46	technomancy	yeah, adapted from a patch submitted on the mailing list
18:46	technomancy	I wonder if I should try to usurp the maintainership of clojure-mode in the absence of jochu... =)
18:54	cooldude127	technomancy: so the expected behavior is when i load a clojure buffer, a slime repl will open?
18:54	cooldude127	assuming it has tests?
18:55	cooldude127	also i still don't know why but the first test i tried to make fail didn't show
18:55	technomancy	cooldude127: yeah. I don't like the way it screws with the window setup, but it's better than having to invoke it manually
18:55	cooldude127	technomancy: i don't really mind, since i probably wanted that anyway
18:56	cooldude127	but yeah, my tests aren't highlighting, and also, i'm not sure how C-c ' is supposed to work, cuz i've never seen it done anything
18:57	technomancy	it should give you an "expected FOO, got BAR" if you press it while the point is in an overlay
18:57	technomancy	that actually works pretty reliably for me
18:57	cooldude127	technomancy: doesn't work at all for me, keep in mind mine are all with-test blocks
18:58	technomancy	oh right; dang
18:58	cooldude127	plus if i can't see the highlight, doesn't that mean the overlay didn't work?
18:59	technomancy	yeah
18:59	technomancy	no overlay means no message
18:59	cooldude127	oh, well then this is expected :)
18:59	gnuvince_	argh
18:59	gnuvince_	I hate it when you two talk together
19:00	technomancy	cooldude127: it works for me on that match-variable sample you sent me
19:00	gnuvince_	My coloring script gives you both the same color and your nicks are the same length
19:00	gnuvince_	So I need to actually read to know who says what
19:00	technomancy	cooldude127: it could also be the slime version too. =\
19:00	cooldude127	technomancy: well i'm working with a completely different file now
19:00	technomancy	gnuvince_: hehe.
19:00	cooldude127	technomancy: are you on the merged trunk yet?
19:00	technomancy	still in my branch
19:01	te	tech & cooldude127 -- do you guys have jobs
19:01	te	you've been here all day on a wednesday
19:01	te	:)
19:01	cooldude127	te: no, i'm in school
19:01	technomancy	cooldude127: there's your incentive for dropping the number from your nick; to make gnuvince happy. =)
19:01	te	cooldude127: well im in school and working 50 hours a week
19:01	te	i envy you
19:01	cooldude127	lol
19:01	technomancy	te: I'm taking a break. =)
19:01	te	luckily my work lets me play with clojure and such
19:01	technomancy	been very productive today
19:01	te	:)
19:01	cooldude127	te: then i envy you
19:01	gnuvince_	Still no word on swank-clojure?
19:01	cooldude127	i'm poor
19:02	technomancy	gnuvince_: jbondeson was looking into it.
19:02	gnuvince_	ok
19:05	cooldude127	technomancy: what's the date on your slime?
19:08	cooldude127	apparently i tried to change the font-size in emacs and i crashed it
19:09	technomancy	cooldude127: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/2acedf58af32de77
19:09	technomancy	(lists all the shas of the dependencies)
19:09	cooldude127	technomancy: broken link
19:09	technomancy	oh well, it's the latest thread in the group
19:10	cooldude127	lol
19:10	technomancy	"test-is integration via SLIME"
19:10	technomancy	merged into trunk finally btw.
19:11	gnuvince_	I'm looking into swank-clojure: is there more than changing the calls to lazy-cons into lazy-seq/cons?
19:11	technomancy	gnuvince_: jbondeson said he tried that and it seemed to work on the swank side, but then slime would go into conniptions.
19:12	gnuvince_	ok
19:12	cooldude127	technomancy: ok i'm two git commits ahead of you on clojure
19:12	cooldude127	but i don't think they're relevant
19:12	technomancy	gnuvince_: search for jbondeson: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
19:13	technomancy	cooldude127: I merged yours already
19:14	cooldude127	technomancy: no i mean clojure.git, and i'm on the same swank and slime versions
19:14	technomancy	oh, right
19:14	technomancy	cooldude127: I need to add a "last-known-good" defvar for each dep in clojure-mode
19:14	technomancy	so the updater doesn't break things for you
19:15	cooldude127	or things just need to be less fragile
19:15	technomancy	that too. =)
19:15	technomancy	though early breakage is better than later breakage
19:15	cooldude127	but i don't think version differences are the problem here
19:15	cooldude127	yeah
19:16	gnuvince_	OK
19:17	gnuvince_	I'll probably look into that tomorrow at work when I pretend to do something ;)
19:17	technomancy	gnuvince_: send a shout out to the mailing list
19:17	technomancy	don't want to duplicate effort
19:18	gnuvince_	technomancy: I'll wait until I'm sure no emergency come up at work
19:18	gnuvince_	Like another fucking website
19:19	jbondeson	gnuvince_: i've gotten to the point where i have a slime repl, but the extra stuff with doc-strings and tab-completion are still not working.
19:20	gnuvince_	jbondeson: do you have a fork on github?
19:21	jbondeson	not yet, was going to do that as soon as i got this pesky exception on load out of the way
19:21	technomancy	I've got to say... after all this Clojure, elisp is starting to sound like tarzan-speak.
19:21	cooldude127	technomancy: tell me about it
19:21	technomancy	"Me get list. Me add to list. GRaaaah!"
19:22	cooldude127	haha
19:23	technomancy	I wonder what the odds would be of getting hash-table literals into 24.
19:23	technomancy	they'd probably be better if I could write C. =)
19:23	cooldude127	lol
19:24	jbondeson	i think i found the next problem... swank uses seq?, and (seq? '()) => true
19:24	technomancy	that would do it
19:25	chavo_	jbondeson: is this a ClassCastException when you load slime?
19:25	hiredman	,(seq? nil)
19:25	clojurebot	false
19:25	jbondeson	chavo_: no, Compiler error when loading swank/slime functions
19:25	hiredman	,(seq? (seq '()))
19:25	clojurebot	false
19:26	hiredman	(def are-you-really-a-seq? (comp seq? seq))
19:26	jbondeson	,(seq? 1)
19:26	clojurebot	false
19:26	jbondeson	,(seq? (seq 1))
19:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
19:26	hiredman	ah
19:27	jbondeson	yeah
19:27	hiredman	that would be a problem
19:27	jbondeson	need to have some utility function
19:28	hiredman	(#(or (not (seq? %)) (seq %)) '())
19:28	hiredman	,(#(or (not (seq? %)) (seq %)) '())
19:28	clojurebot	nil
19:28	hiredman	,(#(or (not (seq? %)) (seq %)) [:a :b :c])
19:28	clojurebot	true
19:28	jbondeson	,(and (seq? '()) (not (empty? '())))
19:28	clojurebot	false
19:28	hiredman	hmmmmm
19:29	jbondeson	though yours is a little more clojure-esqe
19:30	hiredman	eh?
19:30	hiredman	mine fails
19:30	hiredman	[:a :b :c] is not a seq, but it said true
19:30	jbondeson	oh, yeah.
19:30	jbondeson	well
19:31	hiredman	,(#(or (and (seq? %) (seq %)) %) [:a])
19:31	clojurebot	[:a]
19:31	jbondeson	i could change my (not (empty? ..)) to a (seq ...)
19:32	hiredman	,(#(or (and (seq? %) (seq %)) %) '())
19:32	clojurebot	()
19:32	hiredman	hmmm
19:32	hiredman	,(seq? '())
19:32	clojurebot	true
19:32	hiredman	,(seq '())
19:32	clojurebot	nil
19:33	hiredman	,(#(and (seq? %) (seq)) :a)
19:33	clojurebot	false
19:33	hiredman	,(#(and (seq? %) (seq)) '())
19:33	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$seq
19:33	hiredman	,(#(and (seq? %) (seq %)) '())
19:33	clojurebot	nil
19:33	hiredman	,(#(or (and (seq? %) (seq %)) %) '())
19:33	clojurebot	()
19:33	hiredman	oh!
19:33	hiredman	haha
19:34	hiredman	of course
19:34	taggart	,(doc seq?)
19:34	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x implements ISeq"
19:36	jbondeson	seq? is used in 8 places...
19:38	jbondeson	seq? replacement didn't fix slime... hmmm
19:40	jbondeson	now to somehow find any potential (if '() .. ) forms which don't trip the lazy-seq if detection
19:40	hiredman	,(doc sequence)
19:40	clojurebot	"([coll]); Coerces coll to a (possibly empty) sequence, if it is not already one. Will not force a lazy seq. (sequence nil) yields ()"
19:40	hiredman	ugh
19:41	hiredman	(doc inverse)
19:41	hiredman	huh
19:41	hiredman	,(doc inverse)
19:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: inverse in this context
19:41	hiredman	,(doc invert)
19:41	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: invert in this context
19:42	hiredman	,((complement sequence) '())
19:42	clojurebot	false
19:42	hiredman	,((complement sequence) 1)
19:42	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
19:43	AWizzArd	,((complement sequence) [1])
19:43	clojurebot	false
19:44	cooldude127	technomancy: curious about your emacs appearance settings (from that screenshot)
19:45	technomancy	cooldude127: inconsolata and zenburn
19:45	technomancy	plus possibly hl-line-mode
19:45	cooldude127	technomancy: 2/3 :)
19:46	cooldude127	technomancy: something went horribly wrong
19:46	cooldude127	technomancy: M-x zenburn ... CRASH
19:46	technomancy	...?
19:46	technomancy	using the starter kit?
19:46	cooldude127	yeah
19:46	jbondeson	i wonder if i can patch clojure to assert on finding a persistent empty list in an if
19:46	cooldude127	technomancy: idk i'm updating my emacs to a newer build
19:47	cooldude127	technomancy: also, what's your font-size?
19:47	technomancy	cooldude127: 22 since I have a really high-dpi display
19:47	cooldude127	technomancy: wow
19:47	technomancy	yeah, I've got a 12-inch laptop with a reasonable number of pixels
19:47	cooldude127	i'm on a 22" 1680x1050, i don't think i can pull that off
19:48	cooldude127	technomancy: what laptop?
19:48	technomancy	thinkpad X61
19:48	cooldude127	nice
19:48	technomancy	which afaik is the only such laptop that qualifies as both 12-inch and reasonable number of pixels unfortunately
19:48	cooldude127	k brb upgrading emacs
19:49	cooldude127	technomancy: yeah that didn't fix shit
19:50	technomancy	I've heard of problems with color-theme on cocoa
19:52	cooldude127	technomancy: it's definitely something to do with my config, cuz with no init-file, once i actually get the right stuff loaded, zenburn applies fine
19:52	hiredman	technomancy: what is the resolution on that?
19:53	technomancy	hiredman: 1440x1024
19:53	hiredman	hmm
19:53	hiredman	that doesn't seem high enough for 22
19:53	technomancy	hiredman: unfortunately the newer thinkpads aren't as high-res =\
19:53	hiredman	I still used 10 on my 1920x1200 display
19:54	technomancy	hiredman: it's a little on the big side; I usually use that size at the end of the day
19:54	hiredman	ah
19:54	technomancy	with dejavu sans mono at 18 or so otherwise
19:55	technomancy	what's the physical size of your 1920x1200?
19:55	cooldude127	technomancy: remember that .emacs bisecting thing we wanted? yeah, REALLY wish we'd done something with that right now
19:56	hiredman	24" so the dpi is not so good
19:56	technomancy	cooldude127: wasn't someone going off to write that?
19:56	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, the DPI makes all the difference
19:56	cooldude127	technomancy: not that i knew of
19:58	cooldude127	technomancy: shouldn't i have a ~/.emacs.d/custom.el file?
19:59	technomancy	cooldude127: only if you use M-x customize
20:01	cooldude127	technomancy: well, considering i set the font using emacs' gui, i assumed it had
20:02	cooldude127	ok it got changed outside customize, but god knows where
20:04	cp2	ahhhhhhhhhhh snake
20:04	technomancy	cooldude127: I use the set-default-font function
20:04	technomancy	and .Xdefaults, but that's an X thing
20:06	cooldude127	nvm i'm stupid
20:09	cooldude127	technomancy: ok, i've eliminated fonts as the cause, the default font messes it up too
20:09	cooldude127	technomancy: in fact, i'm pretty sure that the only stuff left is emacs-starter-kit
20:10	technomancy	cooldude127: sorry; I can't test on OS X. =\
20:10	cooldude127	technomancy: only way to be sure is to pull a fresh emacs-starter-kit and check
20:12	cooldude127	technomancy: nvm, fresh emacs-starter-kit is clean
20:12	cooldude127	WTF am i doing wrong?
20:13	technomancy	fresh clone from me or you?
20:13	cooldude127	technomancy: from you
20:14	cooldude127	it's very much one of my changes
20:15	technomancy	oh well in that case you might be able to git bisect
20:15	cooldude127	oh snap!
20:19	technomancy	gotta take off... later folks.
20:21	jbondeson	damnit, i'm in a chicken and egg problem with changing the if macro. i need or, but or uses if...
20:22	durka42	changing the if macro?
20:22	jbondeson	want to expand the assert-if-lazyseq to also assert when it sees a clojure.lang.PersistentList/EMPTY
20:22	jbondeson	so i can track down the swank-clojure problems
20:24	jbondeson	multi-level if*'s it is
20:26	gnuvince_	Am I the only one who thinks wrapping with-open inside a try/catch form is not as elegant as it could be?
20:26	jbondeson	error-kit? >_>
20:28	jbondeson	anybody got any bets on how badly i screwed stuff up by messing with such a fundamental macro?
20:29	cooldude127	jbondeson: i safely messed with fundamental mathematical operators
20:29	cooldude127	like + :)
20:29	jbondeson	hahaha
20:29	jbondeson	= isn't defined before if
20:30	jbondeson	of course
20:30	jbondeson	because = uses if
20:31	jbondeson	clojure.lang.Util/equiv it is!
20:31	jbondeson	holy crap it compiled
20:35	Chouser	jbondeson: congrats. As Rich said, it's hard working up that high in core.clj, isn't it?
20:35	silkarn	im playing around with scheme and opengl now and I see the vectors in Scheme are not dynamically resizeable. how are clojure vectors implemented so achieve automatic resizing? is there a hidden penalty instead? because it is very nice not having to reverse a lot at the end of tailrec functions.
20:36	jbondeson	course it didn't find the issue, heh. back to the drawing board (still keeping in the change)
20:37	durka42	silkarn: the vectors never change. you get a new one
20:38	silkarn	isnt tht very innefficent?
20:38	silkarn	how do you spell inefficient?
20:38	silkarn	last one?
20:38	durka42	yes, the last spelling
20:39	durka42	it would be if they were really copied
20:39	durka42	but the new vector generally shares structure with the old
20:39	durka42	this stuff is rather advanced and there's no way i can explain it
20:39	durka42	but i think rhickey has a video about it
20:40	durka42	this is where someone more experienced than me jumps in and explains structural sharing and bagwell's data structures
21:10	Chouser	jbondeson: does Rich have your CA? He seemed open to that change, perhaps you could get a patch in.
21:11	jbondeson	Chouser: yeah, i've had a couple patches in.
21:11	Chouser	ah, cool.
21:58	hiredman	,(pl (?map (replicate 3 (?apply (vector (?map (range 10) inc � inc � inc)) call � (?* 10) � call � (?+ -2) map)) shuffle))
21:58	clojurebot	((90 40 80 50 30 70 100 20 10 60) (90 70 80 100 20 60 30 10 50 40) (40 10 90 60 80 70 50 100 20 30))
21:59	danlarkin	?
21:59	danlarkin	interesting
22:00	danlarkin	why are you wingdinging clojure!
22:00	hiredman	:)
22:00	hiredman	?map is replaced by (flip map)
22:03	gnuvince_	(doc flip)
22:03	danlarkin	why all the effort into flipping and making unreadable code
22:03	hiredman	flip returns a function that does the same thing, but takes arguments in oppposite order
22:04	hiredman	danlarkin: once you start it's hard to stop
22:06	hiredman	,(pl (?map (replicate 3 (?apply (vector (?map (range 10) inc � inc � inc)) char � call � (?* 10) � call � (?+ -2) map)) shuffle))
22:06	clojurebot	(($ \d \ \P \2 \newline \F \Z \< $ (\ \< \ \( \Z \F \d \newline \2 \P) (\P \ \newline \ \Z \2 \( \< \d \F))
22:08	gnuvince_	eerily looks like bad Haskell
22:11	hiredman	orly
22:12	hiredman	I was thinking of using arrrows for function application without parens
22:16	hiredman	I guess I should $
22:19	danlarkin	that is, hiredman obfuscated style
22:23	dreish	This is all my fault for pointing out that cjbot could be made to do anything using #=(eval x), isn't it?
22:27	hiredman	,(pl inc $ 3)
22:27	clojurebot	4
22:27	dreish	Unless this is all being done through a macro called pl. I thought maybe you had gone nuts editing the reader.
22:27	hiredman	eh
22:28	hiredman	it is a macro
22:28	dreish	Okay, nevermind then.
22:28	dreish	How about a macro called apl that implements APL?
22:29	dreish	Since you seem to be moving in that direction.
22:29	hiredman	,(pl (map call � ?+ $ 5 range $ 3))
22:29	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: � in this context
22:30	hiredman	hmm, works in the repl
22:30	dreish	,(apl (~R?R�.�R)/R<-1??R)
22:30	clojurebot	Invalid token: /R<-1??R
22:30	hiredman	,(pl (map call � ?+ $ 5 range $ 3))
22:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: � in this context
22:31	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(pl (map call � ?+ $ 5 range $ 3)))
22:31	clojurebot	(do (map call � ((uncurry +) 5) (range 3)))
22:41	cooldude127	hiredman: i must say i'm often scared of the code you create
22:42	hiredman	it's ok, my code doesn't make it into anything important
22:42	hiredman	,(pl (map call � ?+ $ 5 range $ 3))
22:42	clojurebot	(5 6 7)
22:43	danlarkin	,(map + 5 (range 3))
22:43	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
22:43	danlarkin	blah blah blah
22:44	danlarkin	you know what I meant, compiler!
22:45	hiredman	? uncurries, but I can't tell when to stop taking arguments, so you need to either call the uncurried function at the end with no args, or call call on it
22:46	hiredman	,(((?+) 1) 2)
22:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: ?+ in this context
22:46	hiredman	,(pl (((?+) 1) 2))
22:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
22:46	hiredman	hmmm
22:57	cooldude127	why are we messing around with APL anyway?
23:03	ozy`	what's that about APL?
23:05	hiredman	,(pl (((??filter � map inc � dec range $ 5) call � ?not= $ 2 )))
23:05	clojurebot	(0 1 3 4)
23:05	durka42	aah
23:05	cooldude127	WHYY!!!
23:06	hiredman	I don't know
23:06	ozy`	that looks more like haskell than APL
23:09	durka42	especially the $
23:09	durka42	is it the haskell $?
23:11	ozy`	without knowing what all the functions are supposed to do I'd guess in the affirmative
23:12	cooldude127	looks more like an argument placeholder
23:13	durka42	,(doc $)
23:13	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: $ in this context
23:14	cooldude127	yeah not an operator
23:17	durka42	just a symbol that the pl macro interprets
23:17	durka42	where's kotarak these days
23:17	hiredman	a $ b -> (a b)
23:18	durka42	right
23:18	ozy`	,(doc pl)
23:18	clojurebot	"([& forms]); "
23:18	hiredman	:P
23:18	ozy`	that's helpful
23:18	cooldude127	doc fail!
23:19	cooldude127	it should replace the empty message with something like "Document your code, dumbass!"
23:20	durka42	maybe that should be automatically included in :test
23:22	hiredman	(doc pl)
23:22	hiredman	,(doc pl)
23:22	clojurebot	"([& forms]); magic"
23:22	durka42	~google more magic switch
23:22	clojurebot	First, out of 1700000 results is:
23:22	clojurebot	A Story About 'Magic'
23:22	clojurebot	http://catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
23:23	durka42	that's the one
23:23	cooldude127	clojurebot: you rule!
23:23	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:23	cooldude127	:(
23:23	cooldude127	can't understand my compliments
23:25	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/41a1d49a52e4b559dc9599b444a69174ea0e5f55/functional.clj
23:25	ozy`	if you want to get truly APL-like behavior, you need every function to be an infix operator, with reader macros for HOF application (compose, fold), implicit scalar->vector->matrix and scalar->function auto-promotion, and a strict regiment of naming all functions with single characters
23:27	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '(pl a � b))
23:27	clojurebot	(do (comp a b))
23:28	ozy`	that's what I thought that did :p
23:28	cooldude127	that's nifty
23:28	ozy`	,(macroexpand-1 '(pl a $ b))
23:28	clojurebot	(do (a b))
23:28	cooldude127	hiredman: what are you doing to insert those damn interpuncts?
23:28	ozy`	,(macroexpand-1 '(pl +/ a b))
23:28	clojurebot	Invalid token: +/
23:28	durka42	,(macroexpand '(pl (??filter)))
23:28	clojurebot	(do ((uncurry (flip filter))))
23:29	durka42	is uncurry like partial?
23:29	hiredman	cooldude127: I have "/." mapped
23:29	cooldude127	oh
23:29	hiredman	durka42: the url for the source I pasted it
23:30	durka42	yes, it confuses me
23:30	hiredman	it is like a partial that keeps going
23:31	hiredman	,(pl (call (((?+ 1) 2) 3)))
23:31	clojurebot	6
23:31	hiredman	until you call it with no args
23:32	durka42	oh, cool
23:32	durka42	kind of a lazy partial
23:39	durka42	but hiredman, what are you going to use ? for?
23:49	cooldude127	so apparently you can't define your own var called "/"
23:49	cooldude127	clojure can do it, but i can't!?
23:49	durka42	well clojure already did
23:49	cooldude127	yeah but i want to :(
23:50	hiredman	"/" is special
23:50	cooldude127	i'm trying to take over the math operators
23:50	hiredman	find a similar unicode character :P
23:50	cooldude127	hiredman: that's just mean to users
23:50	durka42	please don't :p
23:50	cooldude127	hiredman: this is why you scare me :)
23:51	hiredman	I have no users
23:51	cooldude127	there is no good alternative
23:51	durka42	user=> (binding [/ +] (apply / [2 3]))
23:51	durka42	5
23:52	cooldude127	durka42: yeah, but i can't say (def / ...)
23:52	durka42	true
23:52	durka42	because of the name conflict
23:52	hiredman	no
23:52	cooldude127	durka42: no that's not why
23:52	hiredman	it is because / is special
23:52	cooldude127	durka42: i already renamed it
23:52	durka42	i see
23:52	cooldude127	hiredman: well this blows
23:52	durka42	yeah, you can't do user//
23:52	hiredman	shrug
23:53	cooldude127	why not!? why shouldn't i be able to?
23:54	cooldude127	as long as it is just slashes, there should be no ambiguity
23:54	hiredman	because / is generally namespace/function serperator
23:54	cooldude127	yeah, but / is obviously the "/" symbol in the current namespace
23:54	cooldude127	and user// is obviously the "/" symbol in the user namespace
23:54	hiredman	obviously
23:55	cooldude127	so i should be able to do that
23:55	hiredman	obviously
23:56	cooldude127	in the meantime, is there a decent symbol ON THE KEYBOARD that could substitute
23:56	cooldude127	?
23:56	cooldude127	i wish this was a typewriter, i would do : on top of -
23:56	hiredman	too bad % is taken too
23:56	cooldude127	lol
23:56	durka42	/ ?
23:56	durka42	i mean, //
23:57	cooldude127	durka42: also not allowed
23:57	cooldude127	anything with a slash in it
23:57	cooldude127	and backslash is also already taken
23:57	hiredman	"div"
23:57	cooldude127	hiredman: yeah i might have to, but it's much uglier
23:58	cooldude127	someone in charge, this must not go unnoticed!
23:58	durka42	user=> (eval `(def ~(symbol "user" "//") +))
23:58	durka42	#'user///
23:58	durka42	but then you can't use it :p
23:59	durka42	i seem to have nullpointered the LispReader
23:59	cooldude127	durka42: if i successfully remove the mapping to / in clojure.core, i could probably use it