#clojure – 2009-01-20

2009-01-20

00:04	apage43	technomancy: for text-adventury stuffs i usually represent everything as instances of a single object type, that can have a parent, sibling, and child, including players
00:05	apage43	so to give an item to a player you just attach it to a different node in the tree
00:06	hiredman	bonus points because with trees you can use zippers
00:07	technomancy	apage43: huh; interesting. I'm keeping items and players in a different map on the room.
00:07	apage43	this is roughly how inform/infocom games work
00:09	apage43	this is the class, from an old text adventure sort of "engine" i threw together in java waay back
00:09	apage43	http://pastebin.com/m65d7b8e2
00:10	durka42	hiredman: is there an introduction to zippers somewhere?
00:10	Cark	these mutual references might not be a best fit for clojure though
00:10	apage43	possibly not
00:10	apage43	but a similar datastructure perhaps
00:12	technomancy	I suppose I can see why you'd want a uniform interface for putting something in your inventory as you would putting a person in a room, but... I'm not sure it makes a big difference.
00:12	technomancy	in the clojure case it's all just altering refs anyway
00:12	apage43	yeah
00:12	apage43	in java it was really nice to be able to just be
00:13	apage43	object.moveTo(player);
00:13	apage43	and player.children(); worked to get the player's immediate inventory, and you could list the contents of containers with the same function
00:14	apage43	really useful when you don't have nice things like multimethods
00:20	hiredman	durka42: zip.clj is pretty good :P
00:21	technomancy	hrm... I wonder how I can perform cleanup when a player disconnects
00:22	technomancy	probably just need to catch the right exceptions from my main loop
00:22	technomancy	which means I should read up on Java exceptions
00:24	technomancy	do you get a SocketException when you try to read from a stream that's connected to a socket which the client closed?
00:25	apage43	that or an ioexception..
00:29	technomancy	actually it looks like read-line might just return nil
00:29	hiredman	on zippers? I looked at both and ended up with zip.clj
00:29	hiredman	mainly because I don't speak haskell
00:30	durka42	i don't either
00:30	durka42	having tried and given up
00:31	danlarkin	technomancy: regarding clean up: you can wait until rich's "scope" function lands in core :)
00:31	technomancy	danlarkin: how long is that going to be? =)
00:32	danlarkin	TBD
00:32	danlarkin	:)
00:32	technomancy	danlarkin: I don't see a thread on it yet
00:33	danlarkin	technomancy: he brought it up on IRC earlier today (or was it yesterday... sigh you know it's bad when the days start to blend together)
00:33	technomancy	sounds pretty bleeding-edge
00:33	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
00:33	hiredman	hmmm
00:33	hiredman	clojurebot: paste?
00:33	clojurebot	paste is http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure
00:34	danlarkin	http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
00:34	danlarkin	that's the url, although paste.lisp isn't responding for me
00:35	durka42	seems to be dead
00:35	technomancy	odd; it's usually pretty solid
00:37	danlarkin	any time a lisp site is having trouble my mind always goes back to that big post the reddit guys wrote up when they moved from whatever amalgam of lisp code they were running to web.py
00:41	technomancy	is there a "retry" for exception handling?
00:43	durka42	no, by the time the exception is caught the stack is unwinding and the context of the original throw is gone
00:43	durka42	so you can't go back to the place where the exception was thrown
00:44	technomancy	you can't even go back to the place of the original "try" invocation?
00:44	technomancy	I know it's not like CL conditions, but you don't need the stack to pull that off.
00:44	hiredman	(fn a [] (try do some stuff (catch Ex e (a))))
00:45	technomancy	you mean defn?
00:45	hiredman	dunno if that actually works
00:45	hiredman	I am pretty sure I meant fn
00:46	technomancy	oh, you can refer to fns with an internal name?
00:46	technomancy	without the y-combinator? =)
00:46	hiredman	yeah
00:46	hiredman	that is what the "a" after fn is
00:46	technomancy	handy!
00:46	hiredman	:)
00:46	technomancy	only problem is... how will the CS students of the future learn how the y-combinator works then?
00:47	technomancy	rhickey is making this way too easy
00:47	hiredman	they will read it off that guy's tattoo
00:49	technomancy	oh snap! got bit by the map-is-lazy thing again.
00:49	hiredman	clojurebot: map?
00:49	clojurebot	map is LAZY
00:49	technomancy	what's the way to force that? do-???
00:49	technomancy	doall?
00:49	hiredman	there are two ways
00:49	hiredman	doall and dorun
00:49	hiredman	depending if you want to keep the results
00:50	technomancy	ah, so dorun doesn't keep head; yeah that's what I want
00:50	technomancy	it'd be nice if the docstrings of doall and dorun refered to each other
00:51	technomancy	woot; that did the trick
00:51	technomancy	hiredman: how many times a day do you think you ask clojurebot about map for the benefit of clueless folk like me? =)
00:52	technomancy	I think this is the second time you've done it for me alone.
00:54	technomancy	Cark: your stuff gets dropped when you disconnect now, so the bunny will not disappear.
00:54	technomancy	now I need to add combat! but not tonight.
00:54	hiredman	technomancy: I just do it because I like the stars
00:54	Cark	ah i was a bit concerned with the bunny i must confess =)
00:55	technomancy	the wildlife conservation league can rest easy
00:55	Cark	until you add combat i guess
00:56	technomancy	doh!
01:01	danlarkin	clojurebot: map?
01:01	clojurebot	map is LAZY
01:01	danlarkin	yum
01:01	danlarkin	clojurebot: botsnack
01:01	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
01:03	technomancy	is there any "pick a random element from this sequence" function?
01:03	danlarkin	AH GOD parser combinators I don't understand them!!
01:03	danlarkin	why can't they just be easier :)
01:03	danlarkin	or why can't joshua choi just come to my apartment and give me a little lesson
01:04	hiredman	java.util.Collections/shuffle
01:04	hiredman	takes a List
01:04	technomancy	but not a seq?
01:04	hiredman	,(java.util.Collections/shuffle (java.util.List. [1 2 3 4]))
01:04	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found
01:05	hiredman	,(java.util.Collections/shuffle (java.util.List. (seq [1 2 3 4])))
01:05	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found
01:05	hiredman	are you kidding me
01:05	technomancy	(my-vector (rand-int (count my-vector))) is ok too
01:05	technomancy	but (pick-rand my-vector) would be best
01:05	technomancy	(while we're being picky)
01:06	hiredman	I had this written
01:06	technomancy	even if shuffle worked, you'd still have to call first on it
01:06	technomancy	which is only one call less than the above
01:07	hiredman	,(java.util.Collections/shuffle (java.util.LinkedList. [1 2 3 4]))
01:07	clojurebot	nil
01:08	hiredman	oh, and it shuffles the linkedlist, it does not return a new shuffled list
01:08	hiredman	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/commit/f4a50054eff413f080ab2d1c164374a6a0697c1d
01:08	technomancy	hrm... I need to head off; battery is low.
01:08	technomancy	thanks for the help
01:08	hiredman	1d6
01:08	clojurebot	3
01:08	technomancy	later!
01:09	Cark	,(let [l (java.util.ArrayList. (seq [1 2 3 4]))] (java.util.Collections/shuffle l) l)
01:09	clojurebot	#<ArrayList [2, 1, 4, 3]>
01:09	hiredman	^-
01:09	Cark	would be better to make a clojure function i think
01:10	hiredman	there are where a few functional shuffles on the google group
01:10	hiredman	but I think Collections/shuffle out performs them
01:11	Cark	ah could be
01:11	Cark	was there a randomized merge-sort in th elot ?
01:12	Cark	*the lot
01:12	hiredman	not sure, I did not pay that close attention because at the time I did not need shuffle
02:48	Lau_of_DK	Morning gents
03:04	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
03:39	ecret	anyone know when clojure-dev(eclipse plugin) will be released?
04:41	erohtar	hi - this is another newbie question
04:41	erohtar	what is the best way to bind vars to a value when sending to an agent?
04:42	cgrand	you have to capture them before sending and rebind them inside the action fn
04:43	erohtar	cgrand you mean pass them as a parameter into the action fn?
04:44	cgrand	just to be sure: by vars, you really mean Vars?
04:44	cgrand	(and not locals?)
04:44	erohtar	yes, Vars
04:47	cgrand	then, yes, pass their current value as a parameter and rebind the var inside the fn or use a closure
04:47	erohtar	thanks a lot, that helped - 2 hours of aggravation just now
04:48	erohtar	btw - is there some elegant way of doing this?
04:49	lisppaste8	cgrand pasted "vars capture with a closure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73911
04:50	cgrand	you can turn this sample code into a macro
04:50	erohtar	cgrand: thank you so much
05:00	lisppaste8	cgrand annotated #73911 with "capture-and-send" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73911#1
05:01	lisppaste8	cgrand annotated #73911 with "example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73911#2
07:06	jave	hello
07:06	cgrand	hello
07:06	Raynes	hello
07:07	jave	I'm thinking about web development with clojure. has someone made bindings for tapestry or wicket?
07:07	jave	or cocoon?
07:15	clows	i don't think so ... but there's a clojure webframework that someone's working on i think
07:15	clows	or a few actually
07:15	Raynes	My function is better than your function.
07:19	clows	though wicket bindings should be rather easy
08:37	rhickey	Chouser: nice blog entry
08:40	rhickey	http://blog.n01se.net/?p=37
09:14	Chouser	rhickey: thanks
09:15	Fib	Is On Lisp readable for someone with only a little knowledge of macros and none of Common Lisp?
09:16	Chouser	Fib: yes
09:16	Fib	Cool, I'll check it out then :)
09:16	rhickey	Chouser: we didn't get to discuss scope/when-scope before, I didn't know how to interpret your 'wow', - wow that's cool or wow that's too much?
09:16	Hun	prepare to have your mind boggled
09:17	cgrand	chouser: I concur with rhickey: nice post. It's funny you experimented with Rhino too.
09:18	Chouser	"wow that's cool." I don't yet have a grasp on how/when the LFE stuff will be useful, but I can understand scope, and it looks good.
09:19	rhickey	Chouser: given scope (and safe streams, more on them soon), I find LFE hard to justify
09:20	Chouser	ah, ok.
09:20	Chouser	back in a bit.
09:37	gnuvince	Chouser: nice post, though some details of your initial impressions of Clojure would've been nice.
09:38	Lau_of_DK	on n01se?
09:38	gnuvince	yeah
09:39	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: Im eating my words :)
09:39	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: :-D
09:40	gnuvince	Chouser also seems more certain about dynamic and static typing than I am
09:40	Lau_of_DK	If you check out ClojureQL, you'll see that we decided to move the compilation of statements into the backend, to accomodate some of the subtle, but significant differences in the various dbms
09:43	Chouser	gnuvince: I don't know that I remember my initial impressions
09:43	gnuvince	OK
09:47	drewr	Chouser: "...because of it's clean object..." should be "its"
09:47	Chouser	I supppose I do remember my reaction to the sequences talk -- so excited.
09:47	Chouser	drewr: indeed, thanks.
09:55	gnuvince	My big moment was "Holy shmoly, you can call any Java class with that thing?!"
09:55	gnuvince	And like that, Clojure was the most practical Lisp ever built
10:02	clojurebot	svn rev 1217; don't clear local closed over in catch/finally
10:11	mco_	hello everybody, I bought the clojure book and wanted to try the compojure example but it won't work. I've seen several posts about that issue but I'm not sure about the status of the code: should the current distribution work ?
10:18	Chouser	mco_: I'm afraid I've not done anything with Compojure yet, so I don't know.
10:18	Chouser	But I haven't heard anyone mention recently that it's broken or anything.
10:19	Chouser	It's possible that a recent change to Compojure has made the example from the book outdated, I suppose.
10:24	clows	I think there's a link to the clojure / clojure-contrib version he used in the book (somewhere in the introduction or so) that one should work
10:24	mco_	thanks for your answers !
10:24	mco_	but I downloaded a single package in which al the jars are present
10:25	mco_	okay maybe I missed a step
10:45	danlei`	what is the minimum java version to run clojure on? 1.5, right?
10:45	Chouser	danlei`: I think that's right, yes.
10:45	danlei`	ok, thanks
10:47	Chousuke	hm
10:47	Chousuke	shouldn't server_socket.clj in contrib close the socket if the server fn throws an exception? :/
11:49	philscotted	I'm trying to invoke a Clojure function from Java, and have so far been successful passing a StringReader with "my-fun-name" to Compile and casting to IFn. However, is there a better way to do this? I can find the class of the compiled function, but I'm not sure how to obtain an instance of it. Any ideas?
11:50	philscotted	I have the fields const_0,...,const_5 and applyToHelper in the function's class.
11:53	cgrand	philscotted: in clojure.lang.RT use the static method var(String, String)
11:53	Chouser	are you trying to call into a Clojure namespace that has :gen-class and is already compiled? Or just trying to invoke functions in an uncompiled .clj file?
11:54	philscotted	I've compiled but haven't used gen-class. I need to check the documentation for that.
11:55	Chouser	well, if you're trying to get transparent calling from Java, you'll have to go the gen-class route. But it's easier to just do as cgrand said, in which case you don't even need to compile the Clojure code.
11:56	philscotted	Cool. I'll try that. Cheers guys.
11:59	ppjt	Hi all
11:59	ppjt	Can anyone help confirm some odd behavior w/ pmap?
11:59	ppjt	Try (pmap inc (range 1000000))
12:00	ppjt	Out of Memory error?
12:11	Chousuke	indeed :/
12:21	ppjt	Thanks, Chousuke. I get same with collections one item, too -- (pmap inc [0])
12:21	ppjt	(collections of one)
12:31	technomancy	if I def a var in the global root, is binding the only way to give it a thread-local value?
12:32	danlarkin	(doc with-local-vars)
12:32	clojurebot	varbinding=> symbol init-expr Executes the exprs in a context in which the symbols are bound to vars with per-thread bindings to the init-exprs. The symbols refer to the var objects themselves, and must be accessed with var-get and var-set; arglists ([name-vals-vec & body])
12:34	technomancy	ok, for some reason I thought using set! would make a new thread-local binding, but that's obviously not the case
12:34	technomancy	seems intuitive, but I suppose that could cause some tough-to-catch errors? using binding is fine.
12:59	stuarthalloway	Hi all. Is there a count-if equivalent in Clojure or contrib somewhere?
13:00	StartsWithK	(count (filter pred coll))
13:00	stuarthalloway	right, and trivial to compose (comp count filter)
13:01	stuarthalloway	just didn't know if was actually composed and named anywhere
13:01	StartsWithK	i don't think it is
13:04	ajustinjohnson	I have a LazyCons called data of PersistentStructMaps and want to create a PersistentArrayMap from that LazyCons that contains :key1 :key2 :key1 :key2... extracted from each PersistentStructMap.
13:05	ajustinjohnson	I can't figure out how to do it though. I can do this...
13:05	hiredman	why so concerned about the type of the hash?
13:05	ajustinjohnson	(map (fn [psm] [(:key1 psm) (:key2 psm)]) data)
13:05	ajustinjohnson	but that isn't quite what I want.
13:06	hiredman	I'd look at for
13:06	hiredman	,(doc for)
13:06	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs expr]); List comprehension. Takes a vector of one or more binding-form/collection-expr pairs, each followed by an optional filtering :when/:while expression (:when test or :while test), and yields a lazy sequence of evaluations of expr. Collections are iterated in a nested fashion, rightmost fastest, and nested coll-exprs can refer to bindings created in prior binding-forms. (take 100 (for [x (range 100000000
13:06	ajustinjohnson	hiredman: I'm getting db results using clojure-contrib and trying to convert the results to the correct form the dejcartes expects
13:07	ajustinjohnson	dejcartes is a wrapper around JFreeChart
13:07	hiredman	and dejcartes needs those exact java types?
13:08	ajustinjohnson	Maybe not exact types, but it expects a list of [string, num, string, num, string, num]
13:08	ajustinjohnson	And I have db results stored in a list of structs
13:08	hiredman	you could use reduce
13:09	hiredman	,(reduce #(conj % (first %2) (second %2)) [] {:a 1 :b 2})
13:09	clojurebot	[:a 1 :b 2]
13:10	ajustinjohnson	beautiful
13:10	ajustinjohnson	That is what I needed
13:10	ajustinjohnson	Thank you
13:11	hiredman	np
13:12	jli	If I understand correctly, Clojure is composed of a bunch of Java code that implements all the data structures and the Lisp primitives, and then a bunch of Clojure code that implements the rest of Clojure?
13:15	djkthx	whats the equivalent for MEMBER or FIND in clojure?
13:15	djkthx	trying to find an element in a list
13:15	drewr	jli: Essentially, yes.
13:15	drewr	Some of bootstrapping is still just calls to Java though.
13:17	technomancy	djkthx: you can use first + filter since it's lazy
13:17	gnuvince	you could use some probably?
13:17	gnuvince	,(some #(= 'a %) '(b a c))
13:18	clojurebot	true
13:19	jli	aww, what a cute bot.
13:22	cgrand	,(some #{'a} '(b a c))
13:22	clojurebot	a
13:23	Chouser	,(apply concat {:a 1 :b 2})
13:23	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b 2)
13:23	gnuvince	cgrand: thanks
13:24	gnuvince	I always forget the idioms with sets
13:25	technomancy	sets are underrated
13:25	cooldude127	what's the clojure way to convert a string to an int?
13:25	Chouser	,(Integer. "123")
13:25	clojurebot	123
13:26	Chouser	the clojure way is the java way. :-)
13:26	cooldude127	alright
13:26	cooldude127	i was hoping that wasn't the case
13:26	Chouser	Why's that?
13:26	cooldude127	it feels dirty for some reason
13:26	cooldude127	i would have expected (int "123") to do it
13:27	Chouser	It's okay to call into Java when it does what you want.
13:27	Chouser	No need to feel dirty.
13:27	cooldude127	yeah i suppose
13:27	technomancy	I don't mind hitting Java when the API is relatively sane like that
13:27	cooldude127	lol
13:27	technomancy	cooldude127: you can't complain till you try to do Date stuff. =)
13:27	cooldude127	lol
13:27	clows	swing cough
13:28	technomancy	,(str (java.util.Date 2009 01 20))
13:28	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:28	technomancy	,(str (java.util.Date. 2009 01 20))
13:28	clojurebot	"Sat Feb 20 00:00:00 PST 3909"
13:28	technomancy	can you believe that?
13:28	cooldude127	does that say 3909 ?
13:28	cooldude127	WTF?
13:28	technomancy	yes.
13:28	drewr	Read the documentation.
13:29	drewr	Offset from the year 1900.
13:29	technomancy	drewr: I know how it works; I'm just using it as an example.
13:29	drewr	Sorry, didn't read above.
13:29	drewr	Yes, it's retarded.
13:29	cooldude127	that violates whatever principle that says do what i expect you to do
13:30	technomancy	cooldude127: also months are offset from zero, but days are from one.
13:30	cooldude127	wtf java?
13:30	technomancy	in other words: don't use java.util.Date.
13:30	cooldude127	lol
13:30	cooldude127	is there a clojure date library?
13:30	danlarkin	wtf, that's exactly like the javascript date functions
13:30	technomancy	cooldude127: if I end up needing it I may write something up and submit to clojure-contrib, but nobody has done that so far iirc
13:30	karmazilla	Java 7... :)
13:31	technomancy	danlarkin: apparently they took "make it look like Java" a bit too far. =\
13:31	cooldude127	lol
13:31	cooldude127	technomancy: i might write it just to give me something to do
13:31	cooldude127	i have no cool project to work on
13:33	technomancy	there's an alternate library called Joda Time that's supposed to be very good, but that's another jar you need to depend on; something that important belongs in contrib
13:33	lisppaste8	technomancy pasted "my simple date wrapper" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73931
13:33	technomancy	that's what I've used so far
13:34	cooldude127	technomancy: what about using a simple map for dates along with a nice set of functions
13:35	cooldude127	say {:year 2009 :day 20 :month 1} for today
13:35	cooldude127	along with whatever other information
13:35	cooldude127	seems like the clojure way
13:35	Hun	for saving stuff that's ok. for calculating it's bad
13:36	Hun	date management is hard
13:36	cooldude127	Hun: care to explain? my plan was to still rely on java's date stuff, but simply wrap it up and cover up all the awfulness
13:37	Hun	that's ok. but don't try to do conversion and especially math with it yourself
13:37	cooldude127	Hun: yeah that doesn't sound fun. i'll delegate that stuff
13:37	technomancy	right; leap years (not to mention leap seconds) will drive you mad
13:38	cooldude127	technomancy: so i'll still use java dates to calculate, but the user of this library will only see friendly clojure structures and functions
13:38	cooldude127	that is my plan
13:38	technomancy	sounds reasonable
13:39	drewr	Weird, stuff that shouldn't work actually does..
13:39	drewr	(make-date 2009 12 32)
13:39	drewr	#<Date Fri Jan 01 00:00:00 CST 2010>
13:39	cooldude127	lol
13:39	technomancy	yeah, it wraps around
13:39	technomancy	not sure what I think about that
13:39	technomancy	it makes stuff like next-date easy, but it could really drive you crazy.
13:40	drewr	That was first thought. I thought you had a bug until I tried it.
13:40	technomancy	heh
13:41	cooldude127	omg haven't programmed clojure in awhile
13:42	danlarkin	cooldude127: want to write a parser for me using joshua choi's fnparse? that's a nice project for you :)
13:42	cooldude127	danlarkin: maybe a bit much for me right now :)
13:42	Chouser	technomancy: that lib is worth it for the docstrings alone
13:42	cooldude127	we'll see how this date library goes
13:43	technomancy	Chouser: thanks. I had fun with it.
13:44	technomancy	it's my passive-aggressive way of fighting back.
13:46	Chousuke	any emacs gurus here? how can I bind a key so that it is equivalent to pressing esc? I know of global-set-key but I have no idea what "command" corresponds to esc :/
13:46	cooldude127	Chousuke: (kbd "ESC") should work
13:46	cooldude127	so do (global-set-key (kbd "ESC") 'my-fn)
13:47	technomancy	Chousuke: yeah, ESC isn't a command
13:47	technomancy	sounds like what you want is another meta key
13:47	Chousuke	I don't want to bind esc into a command. I want to make another key to behave as if it were esc.
13:47	cooldude127	oh
13:47	technomancy	you might need to do that in X (or whatever platform you're on)
13:48	Chousuke	hmm :/
13:48	technomancy	Chousuke: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MovingTheMetaKey
13:48	cooldude127	ok date library: preferred order for year month day arguments?
13:49	karmazilla	ISO
13:49	technomancy	cooldude127: year month date is pretty hard to argue with. (order of decreasing significance)
13:49	cooldude127	is that the best one? increasing specificity?
13:49	cooldude127	k
13:49	Chousuke	technomancy: Unfortunately that doesn't help as I run OS X
13:49	cooldude127	Chousuke: which emacs are you running?
13:49	Chousuke	Aquamacs
13:50	cooldude127	Chousuke: check the docs for aquamacs, i know there is a way
13:50	technomancy	Chousuke: maybe you can do it in System Preferences?
13:50	technomancy	are you trying to make caps-lock into meta?
13:50	Chousuke	nah, I want ctrl-� (next to l in my layout) to be an additional esc
13:50	cooldude127	oh shit that might be too much
13:50	Chousuke	I have caps lock as ctrl
13:51	cooldude127	Chousuke: same here
13:51	technomancy	ok good. =)
13:51	technomancy	you'll go crazy without that
13:52	gnuvince	I took advice from somebody who suggested I take a small performance penalty hit by using two hands to perform key chords
13:52	gnuvince	by using the Ctrl key on the opposite end of the keyboard of the key I want to hit
13:53	Chousuke	hmm... I thought about moving esc, but instead I guess I could somehow hack viper to change its mode when I hit ctrl-� instead
13:53	technomancy	so that's what right-control is for. =)
13:53	technomancy	Chousuke: that's pretty involved; might have better luck in #emacs
13:53	cooldude127	yeah they tend to be helpful
13:58	joma	embedding code into html vs embedding html in code?
13:58	Chouser	neither! :-)
13:59	joma	then what do you have?
13:59	technomancy	joma: I really like the syntax compojure provides
13:59	cooldude127	i like a lot about compojure
13:59	joma	but isnt that embedding html into code?
14:00	cooldude127	kind of
14:00	Chouser	essentially, yes, though it looks a little better than straight html
14:01	Chouser	joma: here's another option: http://clj-me.blogspot.com/2009/01/enlive-yet-another-html-templating.html
14:01	Chouser	I haven't used that yet.
14:01	technomancy	I think my problem with compojure was that the first app I tried to build was too ambitious.
14:01	technomancy	will have to go back to that after I wrap up my MUD
14:01	cooldude127	technomancy: what does MUD stand for?
14:01	technomancy	multi-user dungeon; basically a multiplayer text adventure.
14:02	cooldude127	oh got it
14:02	cooldude127	awesome
14:02	cooldude127	cuz i think i saw your repo on github
14:02	technomancy	it's pretty silly, but it's a really simple app that still has some interesting concurrency opportunities.
14:02	cooldude127	true true
14:03	cooldude127	technomancy: benefit of using a map for dates: no need for functions for year, day, and month
14:03	technomancy	quite
14:04	technomancy	is clojure-contrib still on SVN?
14:05	technomancy	looks like it; hrm.
14:05	Chouser	no, the latest is on google code
14:05	Chouser	oh, sorry, yes, SVN
14:05	technomancy	has that been working out OK?
14:05	cooldude127	oh shit, i just realized the date api from java that technomancy and i are using is deprecated since java 1.1
14:05	cooldude127	ew
14:06	technomancy	I guess SVN makes sense for core, but for contrib it seems like there'd be more benefit to using a DVCS.
14:06	technomancy	cooldude127: oh yeah... and the one you're supposed to use takes an integer or something useless like that?
14:06	karmazilla	cooldude127: the replacement is called Calendar, and it is also terrible
14:06	cooldude127	technomancy: or you use the damn calendar api
14:06	Chouser	technomancy: I haven't noticed any problems
14:06	technomancy	cooldude127: it's like a cherry on top.
14:07	cooldude127	i must investigate this bucket of yuck called Calendar
14:07	Chousuke	hm
14:07	technomancy	Chouser: well in a situation like that, "problems" generally amount to a lower level of community contributions, which would be hard to notice...
14:07	Chousuke	I found out viper actually has a configuration variable for this.
14:08	Chouser	technomancy: ah, I see. yes, Rich was wondering aloud about that.
14:08	Chousuke	but apparently \C-� is not a valid escape...
14:08	Chouser	recently
14:08	technomancy	Chouser: encouraging that he's considering it.
14:09	technomancy	I know personally I'm much more likely to contribute in small ways if I can just fork and have at it rather than having to maintain a series of personal patches in "my space" and not be able to check in.
14:09	cooldude127	this calendar junk is awful, is there a REALLY compelling reason not to use the Date api even tho it's deprecated?
14:09	technomancy	of course I just end up using git-svn or the github mirror anyway, but it'd be nice if that were officially sanctioned.
14:09	Chouser	technomancy: that's exactly what I do for my patches against clojure core.
14:10	technomancy	cool
14:10	Chouser	technomancy: I don't expect to get commit privs on clojure.core ever
14:11	technomancy	Chouser: doesn't it make you a tiny bit nervous that rhickey is the only one with the keys? like if he got hit by a bus or something?
14:11	technomancy	I mean, it's fine for now, but in the long run I wonder about the sustainability.
14:11	Chouser	technomancy: well, I'm nervous about rhickey getting hit by a bus, but not because of repo commit privs
14:11	cooldude127	lol
14:11	technomancy	good point. =)
14:12	Chouser	but seriously, if he were to lose interest or the ability to work on clojure, the real loss would be the leadership and direction.
14:12	technomancy	right, but if that leadership were shared, the odds of survival would improve.
14:13	technomancy	but the bar for something like that is very, very high.
14:13	Chouser	it expect it would take less than a week for some sufficiently respected set of clojure community members to band together, put up a new "official" fork, web site, etc.
14:13	Chouser	s/it expect/I expect/
14:13	technomancy	right. I just don't know of any other languages with a single committer.
14:13	Chouser	I'm not at all worried about that at the moment.
14:13	technomancy	but I guess it's not a big deal.
14:14	technomancy	I just don't think it will stay that way forever is all.
14:15	technomancy	has anyone used the new server-socket lib? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better if it bound in and out before handing off control in accept-fn?
14:16	technomancy	I guess it's technically more flexible to make the caller bind them, but it seems like that's definitely the most common case.
14:17	gnuvince	In Java, are the size of integer classes the same on all platforms and and operating systems?
14:18	durka42	there are 32-bit and 64-bit JVMs
14:18	durka42	i don't know if Integer changes...
14:18	gnuvince	That's what I'd like to know. Can I assume that Byte/SIZE will always return 8, no matter which platform?
14:18	walters	Integer the class probably will, since pointers underlying it will increase to 64 bi
14:18	cooldude127	ok the Calendar api, despite being slightly strange in not using constructors much, is much saner than Date
14:18	Chouser	The amount of memory the boxed objects consume is different, I believe, but I don't know about the range of values supported.
14:18	technomancy	man, if Byte changes size, you're screwed.
14:18	walters	but the range of int/Integer is always 32
14:19	cemerick	primitives (including int/Integer) are constant, regardless of the jvm: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/datatypes.html
14:19	durka42	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/400477/on-a-64-bit-machine-is-the-size-of-an-int-in-java-32-bits-or-64-bits
14:20	gnuvince	Great
14:20	gnuvince	Thanks
14:31	cooldude127	well damn, time zones are gonna totally unpretty this date library
14:32	technomancy	I don't think there's a language out there that has pretty timezone handling.
14:32	technomancy	especially when you start to think about... daylight savings</shudder>
14:32	cooldude127	technomancy: i don't think i can hide the timezone objects from java world in any decent way, so i guess it's best to just use them
14:33	hiredman	,(bean (Date.))
14:33	clojurebot	{:hours 11, :time 1232480118568, :minutes 35, :class java.util.Date, :timezoneOffset 480, :year 109, :day 2, :date 20, :month 0, :seconds 18}
14:34	technomancy	(doc bean)
14:34	clojurebot	Takes a Java object and returns a read-only implementation of the map abstraction based upon its JavaBean properties.; arglists ([x])
14:34	hiredman	cute, yes?
14:34	technomancy	huh; nice
14:34	cooldude127	NO WAY
14:34	cooldude127	except i'm using calendars now, and they are not that pretty
14:36	cooldude127	but for the moment, i'm gonna do (bean) on timezone objects
14:38	cooldude127	on second thought, no i'm not, i'll just use IDs for timezones, they are readable and can be used to get the actual instance if necessary
14:40	StartsWithK	cooldude127: Have you tried http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/
14:41	StartsWithK	i haven't used it myself but it seen in mentioned couple of times
14:41	cooldude127	StartsWithK: i was writing this for the clojure-contrib, so i was trying not to rely on external java libs, unless that isn't a problem
14:41	technomancy	StartsWithK: this is something that would go in contrib, so it has to be based on stuff that ships with the JVM
14:42	technomancy	StartsWithK: also: your nick is a lie.
14:42	cooldude127	haha
14:42	StartsWithK	why repeat functionality of existing lib?
14:42	StartsWithK	:)
14:42	technomancy	StartsWithK: because people want to be able to work with dates without introducing another dependency
14:42	cooldude127	exactly
14:42	StartsWithK	hmm
14:43	StartsWithK	clojure contrib in another dependency
14:43	StartsWithK	also mig layout has external dependency
14:43	StartsWithK	and it is in contrib
14:43	technomancy	right, but the assumption is that there's enough other stuff in contrib that folks would already be using it.
14:43	technomancy	from what I've read automated dependency management is still pretty lousy with clojure; it's maven or nothing.
14:44	technomancy	and for me, nothing wins; no contest. =)
14:44	StartsWithK	i use ivy, works without any trouble
14:44	StartsWithK	for maven and custom ivy repositories
14:44	technomancy	huh; will have to read up on that
14:45	StartsWithK	it works even for direct url dependencies
14:45	StartsWithK	it can be bootstraped inside ant build, so you dont need to include ivy.jar with your app
14:45	technomancy	oh; heh. you have to write XML? no thanks.
14:45	hiredman	clojurebot: ties?
14:45	clojurebot	ties is http://www.bitbucket.org/achimpassen/clojure-ties/wiki/Home
14:46	technomancy	ties could be promising
14:46	StartsWithK	like ties ivy can be used from your own app
14:46	technomancy	hasn't had any activity in a couple months though.
14:46	StartsWithK	but why tie distribution of your app with your build system
14:58	joma	anyone have a somewhat complicated webpage programmed in compojure they''d like to show?
14:58	technomancy	joma: does it count if it doesn't work? =)
14:59	technomancy	joma: you mean a full web app, or just some HTML generation?
15:00	joma	html-generation? just to see how to do some nice stuff with different columns
15:00	joma	and get post
15:00	technomancy	joma: the lisppaste bot seems to be down: http://paste.lisp.org/display/73936
15:01	technomancy	I think the lack of good example code is the biggest problem with compojure at this point.
15:01	joma	thanks ill have a look later
15:01	hiredman	joma: there is a series of blog posts http://ericlavigne.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/using-postgresql-with-compojure/
15:01	technomancy	luckily the mailing list is pretty responsive
15:01	hiredman	where, uh, I think the guy builds a blog
15:01	hiredman	I have not read them all, but they might be what you are looking for
15:02	technomancy	the time-honored Hello World of web apps. =)
15:08	Lau_of_DK	What are our tools of choice when it comes to producing graphs from Clojure?
15:08	Chouser	Dejcartes was just announced
15:08	hiredman	clojurebot: sicp is also http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.001/sicp.pdf
15:08	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
15:09	hiredman	google charts?
15:09	technomancy	ooh; a PDF
15:09	StartsWithK	Lau_of_DK: prefuse, visual library?
15:09	technomancy	probably nicer than reading it with info; heh
15:10	Lau_of_DK	Looks of good hints, thanks guys
15:11	Lau_of_DK	Ok, next question, anyone has some experience with this? http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/sql/Connection.html#nativeSQL(java.lang.String)
15:16	technomancy	how long has github known how to highlight clojure source?
15:17	hiredman	months?
15:26	danlarkin	it's not github per se, but pygments
15:26	danlarkin	the highlighting library they use
15:27	cooldude`	for my date library, is it better to use keyword (:sunday :monday ...) or integers to represent days of the week?
15:28	hiredman	integers
15:28	cooldude`	hiredman: if so, starting from 1 or 0?
15:28	Chouser	my gut feeling is keywords.
15:29	Chouser	you hardly ever do math with day-of-the-week, though you do it all the time with day-of-the-month
15:29	cooldude`	i started out with keywords, now i'm wondering if it's right
15:29	hiredman	0, of course
15:29	durka42	but then, which day do you start with
15:29	hiredman	monday
15:29	Chouser	the mere existence of these questions is an indication of the answer, seems to me.
15:29	Chouser	cooldude`: what made you wonder?
15:30	cooldude`	the java calendar library starts with sunday and indexes from 1 to 7
15:30	cooldude`	Chouser: the fact that i was writing maps to convert between what java uses and keywords
15:30	cooldude`	thought i'd wait and see if that was the right way to go
15:32	cooldude`	i think keywords are right, just because when i get a number from that, i don't have a clue what it means off-hand
15:33	cooldude`	I like that the expression (day-of-week (date)) evaluates to :tuesday
15:33	gnuvince	If I use a GPL3 lib in an application, must I put my work under the GPL3 as well or can I choose a more liberal license (e.g. MIT)
15:37	danlarkin	gnuvince: depends on how you distribute
15:37	danlarkin	gnuvince: it's not about use, it's about distribution
15:39	gnuvince	danlarkin: not sure yet, but I'll want to open source it.
15:40	danlarkin	well you can choose a more liberal license, but you can't distribute a GPL library with it, you'll have to require a separate install
15:41	danlarkin	that is, require the user to install the GPL library themselves
15:42	gnuvince	ok
15:44	cooldude`	ok i'm ready for critiques of what i've got so far: http://gist.github.com/49656
15:54	durka42	should figure out how to test for zune-type bugs
15:54	Lau_of_DK	Is the author of dejcartes in here?
16:00	Lau_of_DK	Is there an idiomatic way of say (let [smallest-seq (smallest col1 col2)]) where smallest-seq would contains that of col1 and col2 where (count %) was the lowest value ?
16:02	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: no, but least, least-by, greatest and greatest-by functions would be very helpful IMO considering that max and min work only with numbers.
16:05	Lau_of_DK	k, I'll cook something up
16:07	Lau_of_DK	user> (<< [1 2 3] [1 2 3 4 5])
16:07	Lau_of_DK	[1 2 3]
16:07	Lau_of_DK	That type of thing might come in handy
16:08	Chouser	I like the idea of least-by and greatest-by
16:08	Chouser	(least-by count [[1 2 3] [4 5]]) ==> [4 5]
16:08	Lau_of_DK	You do ?
16:08	erohtar	hi there - does anyone know of a way to wait for all running agents (without access to the agent objects themselves) ?
16:09	Chouser	like sort-by, but faster because it can be O(n)
16:09	Lau_of_DK	I still think << and >> as names are cool, then they could overload on arity to take an fn as optional
16:09	Chouser	erohtar: 'await' works for agents launched by the current thread.
16:10	Lau_of_DK	(<< count [1 2 3] [4 5 6 7]) ?
16:10	gnuvince	I strongly dislike << and >> for this purpose.
16:10	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: Why?
16:10	erohtar	chouser: thanks! is there a way to get at the agents launched by the current thread?
16:10	gnuvince	First because it's strongly associated in the Java world with bit shifting, but mostly because it doesn't convey what it does.
16:11	gnuvince	least-by is extremely "communicative"
16:11	Lau_of_DK	True - I get the bit-shifting bit, thats actually what I intuitively would think it did
16:12	danlarkin	-1 for << and >>
16:12	Chouser	erohtar: I think I said that incorrectly, or at least it was wrong in my head. 'await' must be given the agents to wait for, and then it waits for the actions to those agents sent from the current thread.
16:12	danlarkin	bad names
16:13	Chouser	erohtar: but no, I don't know of any way to get a list of all agents, expect to build such a list as you create them.
16:13	erohtar	chouser: ok - i understand. Unfortutely i dont have access to the agents themselves - they are launched from elsewhere in the computation
16:13	erohtar	chouser: ok, i will build the list of agents then
16:15	Chouser	Usually what I've done is to have some kind of semaphore that the main thread is blocking on, and when the last agent it done it releases that shared semaphore.
16:15	Chouser	rhickey seemed to suggest that's not a great way to do thing, but I don't think I understood his preferred solution.
16:20	technomancy	dang; github mentioned my MUD on twitter, got a bunch of watchers. good thing I got it working this morning. =)
16:21	gnuvince	hehe
16:23	shoover	does anyone else wish the throw special form would also accept a string and just wrap it in an exception?
16:23	technomancy	that would be very nice.
16:23	danlarkin	technomancy: github guys excited about clojure :)
16:23	technomancy	danlarkin: yeah; just noticed the compojure blog post. very nice.
16:24	technomancy	especially considering it's only the 23rd-most-popular language on the site.
16:26	technomancy	heh; compojure is the most-forked clojure project with a grand total of ... 8
16:28	technomancy	so is lancet a project designed for real use, or is it for instructional purposes only?
16:30	cooldude`	what is lancet?
16:30	technomancy	it's the main example project from the book
16:30	cooldude`	oh
16:31	technomancy	a build system layered on top of ant
16:31	cooldude`	http://github.com/stuarthalloway/lancet/tree/master
16:31	cooldude`	found it :)
16:31	technomancy	clojurebot: lancet
16:31	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:32	technomancy	clojurebot: lancet is a build system that works with ant written as an example for the Programming Clojure book.
16:32	clojurebot	Ok.
16:32	stuarthalloway	cooldude: it ain't ready for real world use, but if you want to make it so I will cheer you on
16:32	cooldude`	looks super cool
16:32	technomancy	stuarthalloway: but it's designed to be more than just example code then?
16:32	stuarthalloway	technomancy: I don't think it has any crippling flaws...
16:32	stuarthalloway	it just isn't done yet
16:33	stuarthalloway	to be ready for prime time it would need a command line interface
16:33	cooldude`	i would be willing to work on that
16:33	stuarthalloway	and some way to get at Ant's sub-task-abstractions like paths
16:33	cooldude`	this sounds fun
16:33	technomancy	good to know. I'm in favour of anything that reduces amount of executable XML in the world.
16:33	cooldude`	lol agreed
16:33	gnuvince	:)
16:34	stuarthalloway	weavejester and I discussed it and he thought it had hit the point where purposeful wrappers for specific Ant bits was a better way forward than continuing to be totally general and reflective
16:34	gnuvince	XML: Reinventing sexps since 1993
16:34	stuarthalloway	gnuvince: but bigger! Enterprise sexps! :-)
16:34	technomancy	I do feel like command-line interfaces are usually the weakest point of clojure projects.
16:34	gnuvince	woohoo!
16:35	technomancy	I've given up and just said "launch it through slime" for my own stuff for the time being.
16:40	danlarkin	I'd like to see someone working with hashdot
16:40	cooldude`	stuarthalloway: it wouldn't even be a real problem to invoke from the repl except at the moment tasks can't be run more than once
16:40	stuarthalloway	cooldude: you can reset them
16:40	cooldude`	ok
16:40	cooldude`	good to know
16:41	technomancy	danlarkin: it's on my todo list, but I think for it to really get steam it requires .rpms and .debs and such, which require more C knowledge than I'm comfortable with.
16:43	danlarkin	technomancy: it's chicken an egg :) no one will make packages unless people want them, and no one will make them unless people want them
16:44	technomancy	sad but true.
16:45	technomancy	I sat down with the intention of creating a .deb file at one point, but the hoops you have to jump through are pretty daunting.
16:45	technomancy	especially for a program that doesn't use autoconf or have a configure script =\
16:46	danlarkin	gack
16:46	danlarkin	well if it's simple enough not to need autotools then just write a 2 line Makefile
16:47	technomancy	I don't know... all the packaging tutorials have a lot of assumptions; as soon as you step outside them I'm lost.
16:47	danlarkin	mmhmm
16:47	danlarkin	I wouldn't fret too much over no packages
16:48	danlarkin	there are no packages for clojure either
16:48	technomancy	right; submitting a hashdot profile for clojure would be useful regardless
16:51	hiredman	xD
16:52	hiredman	java.util.BitSet
16:55	technomancy	danlarkin: if hashdot were to launch java with a classpath that referred to clojure-contrib even though clojure-contrib.jar didn't exist, would it cause problems?
16:55	technomancy	or are non-existent entries ignored?
16:57	danlarkin	java -cp /does/not/exist.jar:clojure/src/clojure/trunk/clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl
16:57	danlarkin	Clojure
16:57	danlarkin	user=>
16:57	danlarkin	answer: ignored
16:57	technomancy	cool
16:57	danlarkin	didn't know the answer myself :)
16:58	technomancy	I wonder if hashdot has the # character hardcoded as the comment marker
16:59	technomancy	that would be a shame
16:59	danlarkin	well it's supposed to look like a shell script, I think is the idea
17:06	technomancy	certain CL implementations will actually let you start your file with # and treat it as a comment just to allow for shebang lines
17:06	technomancy	it's ugly, but it's nice to have the option.
17:07	Chouser	#! is a comment in clojure
17:07	technomancy	aha; nice to know!
17:07	technomancy	will have to teach clojure-mode.el about that. =) thanks for the heads up.
17:07	Chouser	np
17:13	technomancy	what's the difference between the jvm's -cp argument and -Xbootclasspath?
17:15	dudleyf	technomancy: Classes in the bootclasspath don't go through the jvm's bytecode verifier
17:15	technomancy	so don't use it unless there's a good reason?
17:15	dudleyf	So it cuts down on startup time
17:16	technomancy	aha. would it be advantageous to use it for clojure.jar?
17:16	technomancy	it wouldn't make a difference for pure-clojure jars then
17:16	Chousuke	clojure.jar is probably not that big
17:16	dudleyf	technomancy: Maybe, but yeah, I think you can run into some weird classloader problems
17:21	Chouser	gnuvince_: thanks for subjecting my blog post to the reddit commenters. ;-)
17:23	technomancy	Chouser: I just had to laugh at the last comment on your "My path to Clojure" post
17:23	technomancy	"really, the compiler is trying to help you. you ungrateful wretch."
17:23	Chouser	heh
17:24	Chouser	well, he's perfectly correct, at least in theory. And I think I would have agreed with him before my Scala adventures.
17:25	pjb3	FYI: Clojure talk in Portland, OR JUG 9:30 EST streaming live tonight http://bit.ly/pjuglive
17:27	danlarkin	pjb3: cool!
17:27	gnuvince_	Chouser: happy to :)
17:28	gnuvince_	The static typing thing was the only part I disagreed with you, but I thought that it was very interesting nonetheless
17:28	technomancy	the compiler is great at helping you avoid a certain class of error, the problem is that you never make those kinds of mistakes in the first place. =)
17:28	gnuvince_	And if Jonathan "My book on Catalyst sucks" Rockway thinks it's fanoiery, then let him
17:29	gnuvince_	technomancy: not really true, but I don't think we want to go into a static vs dynamic flamewar
17:29	Chouser	I don't mind disagreement at all, and I'm trying very hard not to mind the "user error" and "fanboy" comments. I'll succeed, don't worry.
17:29	technomancy	gnuvince: perhaps you and I make different kinds of mistakes. =)
17:30	gnuvince_	technomancy: perhaps we're familiar with different types of static typing too.
17:30	gnuvince_	I would agree that static typing in C or Java is much more an annoyance than an advantage
17:33	technomancy	yeah, one of these years I'll give haskell or OCaml a shot
17:34	keithb	Hi, I'm trying to create an object with metadata. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong?: http://pastie.org/366164
17:34	stuarthalloway	technomancy: I have really enjoyed working through Real World Haskell online
17:34	gnuvince_	Real World Haskell is a good starter
17:34	gnuvince_	And they don't just use the type system to be in your way
17:34	Chouser	keithb: Strings don't support metadata
17:35	gnuvince_	They encode logic about the problem in the type system, thus making sure some invariants are enforced at compile time.
17:35	Chouser	keithb: Clojure strings are just Java strings, so no special features like metadata
17:36	keithb	So only an object that I can reasonably believe not to map to a plain Java object would support metadata?
17:36	Chouser	keithb: try this instead, and it should work fine: (def k {:name "Keith"})
17:37	Chousuke	you can attach metadata to the var itself too I guess.
17:37	Chouser	only objects that implement clojure.lang.IMeta support metadata
17:37	Chouser	,(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta [])
17:37	clojurebot	true
17:38	Chousuke	but that kind of use for metadata seems wrong.
17:38	Chouser	,(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta "")
17:38	clojurebot	false
17:38	keithb	Yes, that worked. Is :name a special case that always resolves to the significant value (semantic value? or the value used to test equals) of any object, or is it just strings?
17:38	Chousuke	keith's sex is obviously data about keith, not data about keith's name :)
17:38	Chouser	keithb: there's nothing special about :name, it's just a keyword like any other
17:39	Chouser	and probably equality-relevent data too, depending on your political views I suppose.
17:39	keithb	but why is it that when I have repl evaluate k or k4, it returns "Keith"? Does it always return the first metadata value?
17:40	Chousuke	it returns the actual value.
17:40	Chousuke	the metadata is not shown unless you ask for it.
17:40	Chouser	if you do (def k {:name "Keith"}), then after that typing just k at the repl should print {:name "Keith"}
17:40	keithb	But when I did: (def k { :name "Keith" }), "Keith" was considered the actual value. ???
17:41	Chousuke	keithb: the value of k in that case would be {:name "Keith"}
17:41	Chousuke	keithb: with no metadata
17:41	gnuvince_	user=> (def k (with-meta {:name "Keith"} {:source "REPL"}))
17:41	gnuvince_	#'user/k
17:41	gnuvince_	user=> k
17:41	gnuvince_	{:name "Keith"}
17:41	gnuvince_	user=> ^k
17:41	gnuvince_	{:source "REPL"}
17:42	keithb	Yes, I'm sorry you're right. so is k then a map containing a single key/value pair?
17:42	Chousuke	yes.
17:42	gnuvince_	yes
17:43	gnuvince_	and the meta data of k is also a map with one key/value pair
17:43	keithb	Got it. Thanks, all.
17:43	keithb	This IRC thing is great. I'm sitting in a bookstore cafe in Panama. ;)
17:44	gnuvince_	IRC is the best application of the Internet
17:44	Chouser	gnuvince_: wow. just, wow. :-)
17:46	gnuvince_	Email, shemail (some words don't work with that expression...): I'd rather choose a channel with many people interacting live and talking about a specific subject any day of the week and twice on weekends
17:46	keithb	I think it would be "shmemail". ;)
17:48	gnuvince_	keithb: yes, you're right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shm-reduplication
17:53	Azmodan	How can I do modulo in Clojure?
17:53	danlarkin	Azmodan: rem
17:53	Azmodan	Thanks
17:57	Azmodan	I'm trying to eliminate all non-multiples of 3 from a range. I figured I have to use filter. I know my predicate will use rem. I found partial. And I'm kinda stuck.
18:00	Chouser	,(interleave (range 1 30 3) (range 2 30 3))
18:00	Azmodan	Is "On Lisp" a good book to read to get into Clojure? And what should I keep in mind while reading it?
18:00	clojurebot	(1 2 4 5 7 8 10 11 13 14 16 17 19 20 22 23 25 26 28 29)
18:01	clows	,(filter #(zero? (rem % 3)) (range 1 30))
18:01	clojurebot	(3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27)
18:03	Chousuke	Azmodan: you should at least remember that things in clojure are supposed to be immutable. :)
18:04	Azmodan	Otherwise, are the idioms similar?
18:04	Chousuke	the macro system also looks almost identical to common lisp's, but the namespace qualifying behaviour of syntax-quote is an important difference.
18:05	technomancy	danlarkin: does this look like a reasonable setting for hashdot? java.class.path = .:../jars/clojure.jar:../jars/clojure-contrib.jar
18:05	technomancy	(not that you're a hashdot pro, but I just know next to nothing about the classpath)
18:05	Chouser	I found "on lisp" to be mostly useful in justifying s-expresions over c-like syntax, and for demonstrating the power of macros.
18:06	technomancy	Azmodan: On Lisp is mostly about macros... there's a lot more to Clojure than macros.
18:06	technomancy	though macros have the potential to be very confusing.
18:06	danlarkin	technomancy: I've never even used hashdot, I just like the idea :) what's the deal with ../jars/ -- is that standard?
18:06	technomancy	anyway, it doesn't strike me as a good place to start unless you've already read through Programming Clojure and have put together a few sample apps.
18:06	Azmodan	What do you suggest I read then?
18:06	technomancy	danlarkin: well, I don't want to hardcode the full path
18:07	hiredman	project euler is a good starting point
18:07	technomancy	danlarkin: but even if I do, it breaks: HASHDOT ERROR: [2]: No such file or directory: /home/phil/src/mire/src:/home/phil/src/mire/jars/clojure.jar
18:07	technomancy	danlarkin: I guess it's probably hashdot making assumptions that the classpath will only be a single entry?
18:07	Azmodan	I completed my first Project Euler problem with Clojure :)
18:07	hiredman	to just start writing code
18:08	Azmodan	That went way faster than with Haskell :)
18:08	danlei``	azmodan: a few good free (common-)lisp books: successful lisp, gentle introduction to symbolic computation, practical common lisp
18:09	danlarkin	technomancy: I hope it doesn't... that would be pretty lame... maybe it checks for .jars or something...
18:09	technomancy	danlarkin: ok, I'll check in with the author
18:09	danlarkin	technomancy: .jar ending each path on the classpath I mean, shrug
18:09	hiredman	man, if clojure was a real functional language, the complement of my base64 encode function would decode base64
18:10	technomancy	hiredman: maybe you should use a simpler encoding, like perhaps rot13. =)
18:10	technomancy	danlarkin: I think I've almost got it, as long as he's OK with my change to allow ; as a comment syntax
18:12	Azmodan	Thanks for the advices. See you soon.
18:25	technomancy	is . on the classpath by default?
18:27	technomancy	is there a way to get the path of the file currently being eval'd?
18:37	Chouser	no
18:37	Chouser	file
18:39	technomancy	ah; should have guessed that. thanks.
18:40	technomancy	how about getting a directory from a filename?
18:40	hiredman	,(str file)
18:40	clojurebot	""
18:50	clojurebot	svn rev 1218; added overloads for Atom.swap fix RT.nth for Lists to use count only for RandomAccess
18:51	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
18:51	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
18:52	hiredman	just keep it up
19:03	technomancy	danlarkin: sounds like it'll work fine once hashdot gets variable comment syntax, which is planned for Real Soon Now
19:08	gnuvince_	Wow
19:08	gnuvince_	Mega retard in the thread about Chouser's blog post
19:08	gnuvince_	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7r2zu/my_path_to_clojure/c0762zp
19:11	danlarkin	technomancy: hurrah!
19:13	technomancy	will be nice to be able to launch things without slime. =)
19:13	technomancy	and also to have reasonable ps output
19:30	clojurebot	svn rev 1219; added methods/prefers for multimethod reflection
19:53	joha1	I have an application where one agent is setting up an XmlRpc server, while the rest of the program has a GUI. When I select close from the GUI I want to kill the XmlRpc agent, but it is stuck in a server.start() call which will never return. How can I kill this agent/thread?
19:55	Chouser	the server.start() is waiting on a socket?
19:55	Chouser	blocking?
19:56	joha1	yes
19:57	joha1	it is a call to a Java library (redstone XmlRpc) so I don't control this call. I just want to kill the thread
19:58	Chouser	is there any way to give it a timeout, so that its thread can check the status of the GUI and loop around to wait some more?
19:58	joha1	will have to check the API docs
19:59	joha1	but the general question is if I can kill agents in Clojure
20:00	technomancy	only Neo can kill agents.
20:00	cooldude127	lol
20:00	technomancy	sorry
20:00	cooldude127	that was perfect
20:01	joha1	:)
20:01	Chouser	joha1: when an agent is running, it's just using a regular java thread. My (admitedly weak) understanding is that Java discourages killing threads.
20:02	joha1	sometimes you have no choice - but I will see if I can work around my problem somehow
20:02	Chouser	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/misc/threadPrimitiveDeprecation.html
20:06	joha1	it seems that the method I want is thread.interrupt(). Now, how to get the agent to send interrupt to its thread...
20:12	meredydd	Is there a reason you can't let System.exit() take care of things for you, joha1?
20:13	joha1	it kills the repl :(
20:13	meredydd	(or, equally, is there a reason you're not using Apache XML-RPC, which doesn't have this problem?)
20:15	joha1	apache xmlrpc is using reflection to bind xmlrpc tags to callback methods in an object. Demanding an object to declare callback functions doesn't seem to fit with FP. With redstone xmlrpc I can declare my own dispatch function instead
20:16	joha1	besides, I don't think it solves the problem. You still have a start method which blocks forever
20:16	meredydd	The Apache libs don't require reflection; they just provide it as the default handler.
20:16	meredydd	clojurebot: pastebin
20:16	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:16	meredydd	drat it. Where's the pastebin round here?
20:17	Chouser	lisppaste8: url
20:17	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
20:17	Chouser	our bots ignore each other
20:17	joha1	ok, you know better than me. Do you have the method names, or an example?
20:17	lisppaste8	meredydd pasted "apache xml-rpc wrapper" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73958
20:18	meredydd	That's the code I use to wrap Apache's XML-RPC implementation
20:18	Chouser	ouch
20:18	meredydd	Yeah, they really brought the ugly for v3.
20:18	joha1	great. ugly indeed, but thanks
20:19	meredydd	I can just picture it: "We inherited this wildly-popular project from its original developers, and it works just fine. But you know what it really needs? More abstract factories."
20:20	meredydd	(I wrap it as a servlet, so I can throw it to Jetty, as I'm writing Compojure apps. Using a real webserver is generally more scalable anyway, so I'd recommend keeping it that way, but if you really wanted to you could probably chuck that handler at the default WebServer)
20:21	meredydd	Remember, by the way, that XML-RPC structs coming in arrive as java Maps, and if you return a Clojure persistent hashmap it won't understand you
20:21	meredydd	so you'll want some kind of fixup on return
20:22	joha1	Yes, I've noticed that problem already
20:25	lisppaste8	meredydd annotated #73958 with "jmap" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73958#1
20:25	meredydd	That's the function I use.
20:25	meredydd	It's not lazy, but in this case there's no point in making it lazy, so I didn't bother.
20:27	meredydd	(eurrgh. I'm rereading that code, and I was crap when I wrote it. Explicit loops rather than (doseq)? Ouch.)
20:29	joha1	hi there
20:30	joha1	I don't have time to do more now, but I'll keep the code for reference. thanks for the help
20:30	meredydd	just making sure you'd seen the new annotation; save you rewriting that function too :)
20:30	meredydd	Very welcome. Should really think about submitting that to clojure-contrib, but I keep getting distracted.
20:31	joha1	no need to duplicate the effort. and i think submitting a good xmlrpc solution to contrib is a great idea
21:11	clojurebot	svn rev 1220; Streams in progress - safe stream model
21:28	Azmodan	How do I turn ratios into doubles?
21:28	Chouser	(float 1/2)
21:28	Chouser	,(double 2/3)
21:28	clojurebot	0.6666666666666666
21:29	Chouser	or use a float or double as any of the operands
21:29	Chouser	,(/ 2 3.0)
21:29	clojurebot	0.6666666666666666
21:30	Azmodan	Neat. Does it works as nicely for all type conversion? I was using Integer.parseInt and related for all my conversions.
21:31	Chouser	I think all Java primitive types have matching coersion functions
21:31	Chouser	,(char 33)
21:31	clojurebot	\!
21:31	cooldude127	but doesn't work for strings
21:31	cooldude127	,(int "5")
21:31	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Character
21:32	Azmodan	I just found str, it seems very useful.
21:32	danlarkin	http://www.mogulus.com/pjug is on
21:33	danlarkin	clojure presentation
21:33	Cark	there's no image !
21:34	danlarkin	I think he's still setting up
21:34	danlarkin	there was image just earlier
21:35	Chouser	killed my browser
21:36	danlarkin	yeah this is a cpu hog like nothing else
21:36	danlarkin	fans running full speed
21:37	danlarkin	oh, they're doing intros around the room I guess
21:49	danlarkin	Hm. well the presentation has started, but the screen is still blank
21:49	danlarkin	oh spoke too soon!
21:49	danlarkin	video is on
21:53	Cark	hum is there any way to prevent the advertising showing up ?
22:01	danlarkin	I'm just listening
22:01	danlarkin	not watching
22:01	danlarkin	but when I was trying to watch they were _extremely_ annoying
22:02	Cark	yes =/
22:07	danlarkin	uh oh, the presenter's in trouble!
22:08	danlarkin	he doesn't know the answer :)
22:08	Cark	hum there are locks though
22:20	jli	for a project, I came up with a general design with distinct "pieces" manipulating data and passing data amongst themselves. I intended to implement this is Erlang, because the model seemed to fit very well. Could it be done just as well in Clojure, though?
22:21	danlarkin	this presenter is giving out some misinformation...
22:22	drewr	danlarkin: Do tell...
22:22	Cark	jli : clojure is not erlang, but you can go pretty darn close to it using agents
22:23	jli	Cark, okay, thank you - I'll look into that :)
22:24	jli	I would just love to be able to use a Lisp. And I believe I'll have to use a Java library or two, so Clojure would be great
22:26	Cark	jli : clojure is great fun and very well integrated in the jvm, interacting with libraries is sometimes even easier using clojure than java, you will love it !
22:26	jli	even if I end up using Erlang, I definitely intend on learning Clojure
22:27	Cark	clojure is still a bit of a moving target though
22:27	Cark	version 1 not out yet
22:29	Cark	i guess you can't beat erlang maturity that fast
22:29	danlei	some moving targets are worth aiming at :)
22:30	Cark	right, i just don't want to oversell it
22:40	blbrown	Is there a way to pass flags (like CASE_INSENITIVE) to the regex call if I use (re-pattern s)
22:41	blbrown	guess I could just create an instance of Pattern
22:42	Cark	the re- functions are a thin wraper around the java regex stuff
22:42	Cark	so that's pretty much the same thing
22:45	drewr	blbrown: You can also do #"(?i)...." as your pattern.
22:46	drewr	That flags it (at some performance cost, apparently).
22:47	drewr	,(re-seq #"(?i)(foo)" "fOo foo fOO f0o")
22:47	clojurebot	(["fOo" "fOo"] ["foo" "foo"] ["fOO" "fOO"])
22:47	drewr	,(re-find #"(?i)(foo)" "fOo foo fOO f0o")
22:47	clojurebot	["fOo" "fOo"]
22:48	dreish	No need for the second pair of parens.
22:48	dreish	,(re-seq #"(?i)foo" "fOo foo fOO f0o")
22:48	clojurebot	("fOo" "foo" "fOO")
23:18	ecret	anyone know when clojure-dev(eclipse plugin) will be released?