#clojure – 2009-01-19

2009-01-19

00:02	blbrown	has the xml/parse library been moved. like with the code found at the bottom is giving me an error. http://clojure.org/java_interop
00:03	durka42	clojure.xml/parse
00:03	durka42	or import clojure.xml first
00:04	blbrown	someone update the docs!!! just kidding
00:04	danlarkin	durka42: still managing to find time for clojure at school eh?
00:05	durka42	well, classes start tomorrow
00:10	eyeris	I am trying to use clojureql with compojure. When I use a compojure route with: (my-func (route :id)), then in (defn my-func [id] (sql/run [conn rows] (sql/query [[*]] MyTable (= ID id)) (first rows)))
00:10	eyeris	The SQL passed to the mysql server contains WHERE ID = id, instead of WHERE ID = <the value stored in id>
00:15	eyeris	I'm pretty sure the problem is with the call to (= ID id) rather than what is passed to (my-func)
00:16	eyeris	However all of the clojueql demos use literals in their use of query conditions
00:20	danlarkin	eyeris: your all up to date on clojureql?
00:21	eyeris	A few days old, IIRC. I will update now.
00:24	eyeris	Yep, just updated. The problem is still there
00:27	eyeris	This is a paste of the code: http://pastebin.ca/1312292
00:27	eyeris	I'm probably just doing something stupid, since I'm a lisp newb
00:28	eyeris	The problem is in (get-case-record)
00:29	durka42	do you need to use ~id like ~sort-col in get-cases?
00:30	eyeris	Yep
00:30	eyeris	That worked
00:30	eyeris	Thanks for spotting it
00:30	eyeris	I knew it had to be a silly mistake
00:31	eyeris	I think I am just over tired :/
00:51	blbrown	anyone think the docs should have examples ...<runs for cover>
00:52	blbrown	in terms of an example for each function or form
00:54	Cark	you're not the first one mentioning that
00:54	Cark	i beleive someone started a list of examples on the wiki
02:13	eyeris	How can I tell whether a given class contains a given static method?
02:16	blbrown	is there no length function against sequences
02:17	eyeris	blbrown count?
02:18	blbrown	got ya
02:43	blbrown	can I create a map datastructure but not have all the values known at once. E.g. with the java hash map, I can create the object and then populate the data later?
02:44	Cark	{:name nil :address nil} or {:name :empty :address :empty}
02:46	Cark	still working on that octane viewer ?
02:47	blbrown	yea
02:47	Cark	what's the secondary buffer view for ?
02:48	blbrown	Cark, ideally this is a kind of a log viewer. I want to be able to open a log file and then on exception, open up the Java code in the secondary buffer view
02:48	blbrown	that and it is a misc window
02:48	Cark	ah ok
02:49	blbrown	I have simple Java parsing code too with syntax highlighting
02:50	blbrown	(let [a {:name nil :address nil} or {:name :empty :address :empty}] ...) can I update 'a' with another value?
02:50	blbrown	(set! (a :name) "dog") ...maybe?
02:50	blbrown	Cark ...
02:50	Cark	not quite, 'a' is imutable !
02:50	blbrown	exactly, that is I might go with the java.util.HashMap for now
02:51	Cark	,(let [a {:name nil :address nil} b (assoc a :name "cark")] b)
02:51	clojurebot	{:name "cark", :address nil}
02:51	Cark	well you're not embracing clojure then
02:52	Cark	the idea is to have all your state in a single ref
02:52	Cark	or atom i guess
02:52	Cark	and use functional programing
03:02	Cark	,(let [a (ref {:name nil})] (dosync (alter a assoc :name "cark")))
03:02	clojurebot	{:name "cark"}
04:01	Lau_of_DK	Top of the morning gents
05:07	Lau_of_DK	Anyone here who can lend a hand in producing a somewhat complicated RegEx ? :)
05:12	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: don't ask to ask, just paste :)
05:15	Lau_of_DK	<span>blablabla<nobr>RECORD THIS STRING</nobr>blabla<nobr>RECORD THIS STRING</nobr>...continue until </span>
05:15	Lau_of_DK	How do I regex-capture this?
05:17	Lau_of_DK	@ hoeck
05:18	hoeck	mhh, maybe "<nobr>.*?<nobr>"
05:19	hoeck	or do you mean the whole line starting with <span>?
05:20	Lau_of_DK	No, but the stuff I capture needs to be between two spans, <span> and </span>
05:20	Lau_of_DK	And your regex works OK, but it captures too much
05:22	Lau_of_DK	No wait, I think I can actually manage from here
05:22	Lau_of_DK	The filter needs to be a little more advanced
05:22	Lau_of_DK	Thanks alot hoeck
06:11	Lau_of_DK	(def reGetSpan #"<span>(.\|\n)+?</span>") <-- Returns nil
06:12	Lau_of_DK	(def reGetSpan #"<(.\|\n)+?>") <-- Returns all text inside html-tags
06:12	Lau_of_DK	Why doesnt the first, return everything in spans ?
06:17	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: try #"<span>(.*)</span>"
06:18	Lau_of_DK	nil
06:19	Lau_of_DK	@ hoeck
06:19	hoeck	btw, which re-* function do you use?
06:19	Lau_of_DK	re-seq
06:20	Lau_of_DK	It does look like [<span>](.*)[^</span>] seems to work
06:24	hoeck	and i thought i knew regular expressions :(
06:26	Lau_of_DK	Its tough...and cryptic
06:31	cgrand	Lau_of_DK: your last one doesn't work: try to put an "s" at the start of your input
06:32	cgrand	try #"\<span\>(.*)\</span\>"
06:33	Lau_of_DK	No dice cgrand
06:34	cgrand	sample input + expected output?
06:34	Lau_of_DK	(def reGetSpan #"[<span>](.*)[^</span>]") <-- This seems to be the closest thing
06:35	Lau_of_DK	<span style="font-size:16px;font-family:Times">
06:35	Lau_of_DK	<div style="position:absolute;top:2062;left:48"><nobr><b>ZZ0169 </b>Vurdering af </nobr></div>
06:35	Lau_of_DK	<div style="position:absolute;top:2082;left:132"><nobr>behov for </nobr></div>
06:35	Lau_of_DK	<div style="position:absolute;top:2103;left:132"><nobr>foranstaltninger </nobr></div>
06:35	Lau_of_DK	</span>
06:35	Lau_of_DK
06:35	Lau_of_DK	This is what Im parsing. For that example, I need to get "ZZ0169" and "Vurdering af behov for foranstaltninger"
06:39	cgrand1	and as a first step you try to get the content of teh surrounding span?
06:42	Lau_of_DK	Yes, if I could isolate the spans, then parse them individually
06:42	Lau_of_DK	It might not be the best way, but it was my first idea
06:42	Lau_of_DK	1) Get spans, 2) get <b>CODE</b>, 3) get all content of <nobr></nobr>
06:42	Lau_of_DK	That would work
06:55	cgrand1	I encounter troubles with the input string being multiline. On one line, the following regex seems to work: #"(?m)<span[^>]>((?:(?!</span>).))</span>"
06:55	Chousuke	eh. :P
06:59	Lau_of_DK	eh...
06:59	cgrand1	well the (?m) is not required since it does not work (it is intended tow switch the regx to multiline mode)
07:00	cgrand1	are you sure you can't use a proper html or xhtml parser?
07:00	Lau_of_DK	No I think they would work - But when I thought out the above strategy, it seemed very simple
07:02	Lau_of_DK	cgrand1: Do you know of a Java tool that I could use to wrap this up in a hurry, Ive wasted too much time on it
07:03	cgrand1	use tagsoup it's an html sax parser
07:07	cgrand1	if you can store the whole document in memory, use tagsoupe + clojure.xml + chouser's zip-filter
07:10	Lau_of_DK	I can... I'll look into it, thanks alot
08:13	AWizzArd	How can I dynamically instatiate objects of a given class? (defn foo [class] (new class)) ==> java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: class
08:13	AWizzArd	This could be nice for a Swing app, where I want to have one Clojure function (show-frame FrameClass).
08:16	cgrand1	(.newInstance class)
08:37	AWizzArd	ws�
08:37	AWizzArd	oops...
08:37	AWizzArd	thx cgrand1
08:43	Chouser	cgrand1: enlive is an interesting idea.
08:46	Chouser	the replacement part of each deftemplate pair can be either a string or a seq of whatever 'at' returns?
08:50	cgrand1	chouser: thanks
08:52	cgrand1	each replacement site (a node matched by a selector) is replaced by a form which, at runtime, yields a string or a seq of strings
08:54	cgrand1	'at denotes a sub-template (the definition of deftemplate uses 'at)
08:56	Chouser	ok
09:20	gnuvince	Did you guys read the blog post by Brian Carper? I thought it was very good
09:22	rhickey	cgrand1: did you see this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/73823
09:23	rhickey	my take on the LFEs, still no map, but early termination and (potentially) chaining. I think the model is still difficult for extenders (if not consumers) though
09:23	rhickey	no multi-source map
09:23	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: I didnt understand, what are the great advantages of LFE ?
09:24	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: it is one way to manage resource scope (scope and when-scope discussed yesterday are another), and it is purely functional
09:25	Lau_of_DK	Oh ok - And what alternatives are there?
09:25	cgrand1	rhickey: ok, looking at it
09:26	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: scopes handle resources: http://paste.lisp.org/display/73838
09:26	rhickey	so, scopes + seqs are enough
09:27	Lau_of_DK	Ok
09:27	rhickey	But I have been working on 'safe' streams
09:27	Chousuke	I wish I'd understand how that LFE stuff actually works so I could see if I could use monads to implement it
09:28	rhickey	Chousuke: if you want a description in terms of monads: http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/Iteratee/DEFUN08-talk-notes.pdf
09:29	Chousuke	I'm really bad at reading haskell though :p
09:29	rhickey	monads do nothing to simplify the inherent model, which involves handling: source termination, consumer termination, leftover source items, horizontal and vertical combination and errors
09:31	rhickey	cgrand1: I don't have your vote on fully-lazy seqs vs nil punning either
09:32	Lau_of_DK	cgrand1: You really liked the idea of fully-lazy seqs right? :)
09:33	cgrand1	rhickey: I wrote a similar implementation (fn returning either a fn or [value] or [value remaining]) after reading thoses slides (some days after my initial experiment with LFE)
09:35	rhickey	cgrand1: I'd hate to have to explain how to write a correct enumerator or iteratee though
09:36	cgrand1	I agree: right now it's an interesting formal exercise
09:40	cgrand1	About nil punning, I like it but I also understand that fully lazy seq would get us rid of a whole family of subtle and nasty bugs. I haven't make my mind yet.
09:55	cgrand1	Las time I thought about it I ended up thinking that I would prefer to have map and filter always return fully-lazy-seqs but to have thess fully lazy seqs treated like another collection type: calling seq on them would return an usual seq.
10:04	Chouser	gnuvince: I thought that blog post was good too. His commenters were brutal, though.
10:05	gnuvince	Chouser: that's to be expected from people who hang on c.l.l
10:06	gnuvince	Clojure seems to get a lot of flak there for being a more practical Lisp.
10:07	gnuvince	People complain about the JVM, lack of TCO (and ignore the mentions of recur and trampolines), that the Java libs are not Lispy enough, and a bunch of other stuff.
10:07	gnuvince	But the reality is, I've had pretty much the same experience as Brian's had: getting something working in Clojure is just easier and faster.
10:08	Chouser	yep, me too.
10:11	rhickey	the problem is inherently X vs Y - while it should always be ok to say - I had a better experience with X, saying X is better than Y will always rankle fans of Y
10:11	rhickey	how they behave when rankled is another matter :)
10:12	Lau_of_DK	Where can I observe this rankling? :)
10:13	rhickey	http://briancarper.net/2009/01/19/clojure-1-common-lisp-0/
10:13	Lau_of_DK	Thanks
10:16	Chouser	rhickey: too true, though even "fans of Y" suggests an unhelpful emotional connection, especially when Y is programming language.
10:17	Chouser	I wouldn't deny such a connection with Clojure personally, but I'll admit it can be unhelpful. :-)
10:17	gnuvince	Although there was a bit of "mini trash talk" against CL, I think that most of his argument were based on reasonable points.
10:18	gnuvince	Using dates and times within Clojure is easier than in CL
10:18	gnuvince	It doesn't mean that it couldn't be easy in CL
10:18	gnuvince	Just that at the moment, Clojure has an advantage there.
10:20	rhickey	I think Brian was fair, and did qualify "better language for the job", but most people stop at "better"
10:30	gnuvince	On reddit, the longest comment thread is about Emacs and SLIME
10:30	gnuvince	That's sort of missing the point of the article
10:30	Chouser	and it's pain you can import directly to Clojure!
10:31	arbscht_	gnuvince: standard reddit fare, then :)
10:37	gnuvince	arbscht_: yeah
10:37	gnuvince	Reddit:
10:37	gnuvince	Haskell story: Monads are hard
10:37	gnuvince	Java story: JVM is bloated, Yahoo toolbar!
10:37	gnuvince	etc.
10:50	schluete	why does (defn addone-plain [x] (lazy-cons x (addone (+ 1 x))))
10:50	schluete	work as expected while (defn addone-recur [x] (lazy-cons x (addone (+ 1 x))))
10:50	schluete	doesn't do anything at all?
10:51	schluete	I thought I understood the way recur works...
10:52	edw	The only differene I see between those two functions is their names.
10:53	schluete	hmm... sorry, cut'copy'paste... the second example should have been
10:53	schluete	(defn addone-recur [x] (lazy-cons x (recur (+ 1 x))))
10:54	schluete	I tried to use recur instead of the function name for the recursion, but when calling (take 10 (addone-recur 1)) clojure just stalled.
10:55	danlarkin	schluete: you don't want recur there, you want addone-recur
10:56	schluete	but addone-recur would call the method itself, eventually exhausting the stack because of the missing tail call optimisation in clojure
10:56	schluete	I always thought that this was the rational for the recur form...
10:58	danlarkin	except that you're using lazy-cons
10:58	edw	This is an interesting question.
10:58	danlarkin	change lazy-cons to cons and yep, you blow the stack
10:59	edw	`lazy-cons' leads to...something happening.
10:59	danlarkin	but look at the doc for lazy-cons
10:59	danlarkin	(doc lazy-cons)
10:59	clojurebot	Expands to code which produces a seq object whose first is first-expr and whose rest is rest-expr, neither of which is evaluated until first/rest is called. Each expr will be evaluated at most once per step in the sequence, e.g. calling first/rest repeatedly on the same node of the seq evaluates first/rest-expr once - the values they yield are cached.; arglists ([first-expr & rest-expr])
11:00	schluete	danlarkin: but lazy-cons IMHO only delays the execution but doesn't change the way the recursion works?
11:01	edw	So the `recur' is calling some dynamic var, not a captured reference to the `addone-recur' function?
11:01	schluete	either way, what's the explanation for clojure just stalling with 100% cpu on the "recur" version? a bug?
11:02	edw	Some `most-recently-encountered-recursion-point' sort of dynamic variable?
11:02	edw	That makes sense...but is nasty.
11:02	danlarkin	to be honest I don't really know
11:02	edw	But that makes total sense.
11:04	schluete	edw: IMHO recur it meant to replace the recursion you would normally have by a jump, preventing the stack from blowing on deep recursion levels. This is because the JVM doesn't support proper TCO
11:04	Chouser	when the compiler sees a 'loop' or 'fn', it pushes its location onto a stack (I think), so that when it sees a 'recur' it essentially puts in a goto to the item at the top of that stack.
11:04	schluete	but obviously I'm using recur the wrong way... and I don't understand why
11:06	Chouser	so using a self-call in the 'rest' part of a lazy-cons does not endanger the stack.
11:08	schluete	Chouser: could you elaborate this a little more? what does the usage of lazy-cons vs. cons change in terms of stack behaviour?
11:08	Chouser	lazy-cons returns an object with its 'first' and 'rest' args each in a closure.
11:09	Chouser	the key to our discussion being "returns"
11:09	Chouser	so the stack shrinks by one frame.
11:09	Chouser	when you call 'rest' on that object, only then does it execute that closure
11:10	edw	If something like this is happening, you never know what context that `rest' is going to be evaluated, so a delayed evaluation for should set the recurison point to something that throws an exception.
11:10	Chouser	in the self-call case, this calls your functions again (consuming a stack frame) which then returns a new lazy-cons object (giving back that stack frame). Net stack usage is none.
11:10	edw	"...so a delayed evaluation FORM..."
11:11	schluete	Chouser: thanks, this makes sense.
11:12	Chouser	in the case of calling 'recur' from the "rest" clause, as soon as you call 'rest' on the seq, it'll go into an unterminated loop. 'first' works fine though.
11:13	Chouser	edw: you're right about not know the context where 'rest' is called, but what do you mean by a "delayed evaluation form"?
11:13	edw	So let's get this out there: the recursion point for a lazily evaluated expression should be something like #(throw "no sensical recursion point").
11:14	Chouser	'recur' is used in places where you're not creating a lazy seq, but still want to avoid consuming the stack. For an example like this, along with 'recur' you'd want 'cons' instead of 'lazy-cons', and you'd want to add a termination case.
11:14	Chouser	the recursion point for 'recur' is lexical, not dynamic.
11:15	edw	Right, but can you see my point? Clojure should not explode -- or implode or whatever -- when someone does that.
11:16	edw	Actually, isn't it dynamic? Because it's about what's on the stack right now, in the dynamic context of the running program.
11:17	Chouser	I'm not sure clojure can know what you meant for it to do. I don't see why 'recur' in a lazy-cons 'rest' would always be wrong.
11:17	edw	How could it ever be correct?
11:18	Chouser	'recur' is always in danger of becoming an infinite loop, just while "while" in any imperative language.
11:18	Chouser	anytime you see a 'recur' you should look for how you're going to escape the loop.
11:18	edw	What function is being invoked in that `addone-recur' when I type (first (rest (addone-recur 1)))?
11:19	edw	When I type that at the REPL?
11:19	edw	Chouser, yes, I am familiar with the concept. I've written tens of thousands of lines of Scheme code.
11:24	rhickey	lazy-cons wraps the rest-expr in a fn, so if you use recur there that wrapping fn is the target of the recur, if you haven't used loop in your rest-expr
11:24	Chouser	ok, I see your point. The lexical recur point for both a lazy-cons' first and rest clause is a fn created by lazy-cons.
11:24	rhickey	Chouser: right
11:25	Chouser	in which case it might be useful to have some sort of flag to tell 'recur' that this fn may not be used as a recur point.
11:25	edw	I was trying to write a `safe-lazy-cons' macro but getting that to work would take a bit thinking.
11:26	edw	(set! recur-point #(throw "no cookie for you"))
11:26	Chouser	but it's not dynamic. I still don't see how a var is going to help.
11:27	edw	How is it not dynamic? The recur point is the top of stack, no?
11:27	Chouser	at compile time
11:28	edw	`Let' is just an evaled lambda: (let [x 1] (+ x 1)) => ((lambda (x) (+ x 1)) 1).
11:28	rhickey	edw:not true
11:28	Chouser	at runtime, the call stack has no knowledge of recur points. That's kinda the idea, to avoid using the Java stack so that we don't use it up.
11:29	edw	Am I thinking too schemely?
11:29	rhickey	edw: in Clojure let is not lambda
11:29	rhickey	let is sequential
11:29	rhickey	binding-wise
11:30	edw	Err, how about: `Loop' is just an evaled lambda?
11:30	rhickey	also not true in Clojure
11:30	edw	Are you referring to `let' being "really" `let*'?
11:31	rhickey	edw: it is more like let*, but also is not defined in terms of lambda, ditto loop
11:32	rhickey	In Scheme, lamba has properties that allow its use for looping with the same guarantees as loop, in Clojure it doesn't, so loop is not defined in terms of it
11:32	rhickey	lambda
11:32	rhickey	fn
11:33	rhickey	so Clojure has more primitive ops let/loop and fn
11:34	Chouser	I hadn't thought about how the fact that Clojure (and code written in it) doesn't assume the VM has TCO will help get it into more VMs -- javascript, android, CLR, etc.
11:35	Chouser	even if/when JVM gets TCO, these others might not.
11:35	edw	rhickey: Can you think of a use for `recur' inside a delayed expression without an enclosing, recursion point-defining form? Alternatively, do you think it makes sense to throw an exception if you try to `recur' without an explicit enclosing form in a delayed expression?
11:36	edw	And if not, is there a way to get out of an infinite loop in SLIME without blowing up the inferior Lisp process? ;)
11:36	rhickey	edw: there is no use without an enclosing fn/loop
11:38	rhickey	not sure what it would take to throw an exception in that case, but adding runtime overhead to loop is a non-option
11:38	edw	I hear you. I was thinking of overhead inside lazy-cons and friends.
11:39	rhickey	edw: an unfortunately, you'll find the JVM far less tolerant of infinite loops than your typical CL/Scheme :(
11:39	rhickey	and thus Clojure too
11:39	edw	When in doubt, trace?
11:40	Chouser	(defmacro no-recur [& body] `(loop [x# 'x#] (assert (= x# 'x#)) ~@body))
11:40	rhickey	edw: in a debugger, you'd have break options
11:40	Chouser	but that's an extra compare per iteration
11:41	edw	Using a Java IDE is something I promised my mother I'd never do again.
11:41	rhickey	Chouser: yeah, any runtime overhead here is bad
11:41	rhickey	edw: you can use Clojure with JSwat and leave the IDE out of it
11:41	Chouser	right, you don't use 'recur' generally, unless you're in a tight inner loop. Otherwise you'd probably be using seqs.
11:42	rhickey	this problem might best be solved with enhanced documentation
11:42	rhickey	I don't consider it a common problem
11:48	Chouser	the fn produced by lazy-cons could take 8 or 9 args instead of 0 or 1. That would catch most attempts at using 'recur'.
11:50	hiredman	Chouser: heh
11:55	rhickey	Chouser: actually just switching first to one arg, rest to zero would catch a bunch, as recur most likely in rest and with value
11:55	kotarak	Would it be possible to include a trivial patch, to make :source in Var meta data a classpath relative/full pathname?
11:55	lisppaste8	kotarak pasted "trivial patch to help IDEs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73866
11:55	kotarak	Just the basename of the file is ambiguous....
11:56	rhickey	kotarak: you have CA?
11:56	kotarak	Yes. Meikel Brandmeyer. Shall I open a ticket on gc?
11:57	rhickey	kotarak: sure, thanks
11:57	kotarak	ok.
12:04	danlarkin	rhickey: with regard to the CA, do I /need/ to provide my mailing address, phone number? My mailing address will be changing soon so it won't be applicable for much longer
12:05	scottj	Should {:foo 1\n:bar 2} be indented with the : in :foo and :bar lined up, or with :bar one character to the right of :foo? I feel like clojure mode in emacs often indents incorrectly.
12:06	rhickey	danlarkin: you should supply whatever is current
12:07	rhickey	scottj: :foo and :bar should line up
12:07	danlarkin	rhickey: will you send me a present? :)
12:07	rhickey	danlarkin: unlikely :)
12:07	scottj	rhickey: that's how I felt, but I don't think that's the default behavior of the clojure emacs mode
12:07	rhickey	scottj: seems to be how it works for me
12:08	hiredman	clojure.vim often does some wonky indents too, like pulling :bar out so it lines up with {
12:08	hiredman	(btw)
12:08	danlarkin	FWIW I updated clojure-mode yesterday and my indenting still works as you'd expect
12:09	kotarak	hiredman: huh? Could you give me an example? I try very hard to indent correctly....
12:10	scottj	ok, I'll look at it. thanks!
12:11	hiredman	kotarak: you never know, could be something else I have installed fighting with clojure.vim
12:12	hiredman	I just opened up test.clj and type "{:a 1\n:b 2}" and the :b lined up with the curly brace
12:12	kotarak	hiredman: the indent works for more in 95% of the cases. There are some edges which are round yet, but "often" should definitively be not the word you have to use...
12:12	kotarak	Let me check.
12:12	scottj	rhickey: do you have any indent settings beyond the clojure-mode defaults?
12:13	kotarak	hiredman: nope. Works for me. :a and :b are lined up.
12:13	rhickey	scottj: nope, just clojure-mode
12:15	hiredman	kotarak: shrug
12:15	hiredman	once I line :a and :b up, :c lines up correctly
12:16	kotarak	Hmm... Ominous....
12:33	drewr	http://is.gd/gt4s/clojure/search/
12:57	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs is also <reply>"Learning Emacs and SLIME was just about the most painful computer experience I've ever been through."
12:57	clojurebot	Ok.
13:00	danlarkin	clojurebot: how many things do you know?
13:00	clojurebot	Pardon?
13:00	danlarkin	jerk!
13:01	technomancy	that's funny; you'd think a bot written in Lisp would have an easier time learning how to use a lisp machine.
13:04	hiredman	131
13:05	danlarkin	Ooo lots
13:09	Lau_of_DK	Good evening all
13:09	technomancy	hi Lau
13:10	danlarkin	Afternoon
13:13	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: I read through that blog/comparison of CL and Clojure you posted earlier today. Two interesting things come-up. 1) The blogger would probably have enjoyed it even more if we picked up ClojureQL, and 2) The guy "Lars" in the comment was actually the guy who got me into Lisp way back when :)
13:13	technomancy	Lau_of_DK: link?
13:14	Lau_of_DK	http://briancarper.net/2009/01/19/clojure-1-common-lisp-0/
13:14	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: I am reading the comment thread on reddit for that right now
13:14	technomancy	Lau_of_DK: I like it already. =)
13:14	Lau_of_DK	hehe :)
13:14	hiredman	man those CL people are militant
13:15	hiredman	which, uh, I guess I can understand, but wow
13:15	Lau_of_DK	No its just Lars :)
13:15	Lau_of_DK	The rest are peaceful, when I first met him, his words and arguments didnt do alot for me, but his code sure did
13:16	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: I am looking at the comments on reddit, not the blog itsself
13:17	Lau_of_DK	k
13:17	Lau_of_DK	I referred to the comments directly on the Blog
13:18	hiredman	"I don't find most of these criticisms particularly valid. It sounds like the author just didn't bother to understand CL, and then his lack of understanding bit him."
13:18	Lau_of_DK	I think he makes valid points
13:19	gnuvince	Who? The author or the commenter?
13:19	Lau_of_DK	author
13:19	gnuvince	Yes he does.
13:20	gnuvince	That's a second success story in 2 weeks
13:20	Lau_of_DK	The first being?
13:21	hiredman	well, uh, his gallery is not up, so I dunno about calling it a success
13:21	gnuvince	The Veterinarian Hspital
13:21	gnuvince	hiredman: it was up.
13:21	hiredman	503's
13:22	gnuvince	Reddit effect must have brought it down.
13:22	hiredman	yeah
13:22	gnuvince	I was able to view it earlier this morning.
13:22	gnuvince	Nothing amazing per se, but it's a cute site written quickly in Clojure
13:23	technomancy	do you think there'd be a good market for a commercial hour-long screencast on Clojure?
13:23	hiredman	ugh, I hate the web
13:23	mattrepl	would be interesting to see server stats and an autopsy to identify what failed
13:33	gnuvince	technomancy: peepcode?
13:35	technomancy	gnuvince: yeah. thinking about putting one together.
13:35	gnuvince	technomancy: If it's the same quality as the Emacs one, I'd definitely be in.
13:35	gnuvince	I wonder however how much you can cover in one hour
13:35	technomancy	it's a small market, but since there's hardly any docs out there, I think there's a chance it could sell well.
13:36	technomancy	gnuvince: that's the problem, it would be very beginner-level; you personally might not learn much you don't already know.
13:36	gnuvince	Yeah
13:36	gnuvince	Unlike the Emacs screencast where I learned about a bunch of packages.
13:36	technomancy	gnuvince: I haven't been using Clojure for as long as I've been using Emacs, (actually... no one has!) but I think it could turn out pretty well. =)
13:38	technomancy	I'm playing with writing a simple MUD as an example project to step through for the video. fun stuff.
13:38	technomancy	seems like a pretty fun, approachable project that still involves a fair amount of concurrency code.
13:40	hiredman	hmmmmm
13:41	hiredman	ring seems to be breaking my unicode
13:41	technomancy	gnuvince: if I act fast I could get it out before the book, which would make it the first published commercial documentation for Clojure.
13:46	gnuvince	I need some assistance with compiling Java code: there's one file in a Java project that I want to compile and use from Clojure. I did javac File.java to create the class files. Now what? Do I need to jar them together?
13:46	danlarkin	hiredman: mmcgrana/ring? I haven't tried it with any unicode inputs yet
13:48	rhickey	gnuvince: the .class files just need to be in your classpath, in dir structure corresponding to package
13:48	hiredman	clojurebot has some unicode in its factoids
13:49	hiredman	clojurebot: pcl -> clojure?
13:49	clojurebot	pcl -> clojure is http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/09/16/pcl-clojure
13:49	gnuvince	rhickey: that's it?
13:49	hiredman	I have a webpage dumping clojurebot's brain, and the -> shows up as ?
13:49	hiredman	damn it
13:49	hiredman	wrong character encoding in the browser
13:50	gnuvince	Ah, cool. Thanks rhickey
13:50	danlarkin	hiredman: :-o
13:52	blbrown	have any of you considered working with your existing spring mvc app or you wouldn'
13:52	blbrown	want to mix the two?
13:52	hiredman	still no unicode love
13:52	hiredman	I wonder why that would be
13:53	hiredman	maybe the font the browser is using doesn't have this glyph
13:54	danlarkin	clojurebot: brain dump
13:54	clojurebot	brain dump is http://clj.thelastcitadel.com/clojurebot
13:54	danlarkin	shows up as ? for me too
13:54	danlarkin	it's literally "?" in the HTML
13:55	hiredman	:(
13:55	technomancy	should probably be encoded as HTML entities anyway
13:55	danlarkin	so yeah, coding problem somewhere in the line
13:55	technomancy	clojurebot: seattle?
13:55	clojurebot	seattle is have the coldest temps since the 1950's
13:56	hiredman	oh, which reminds me
14:20	Lau_of_DK	Poll: If ClojureQL was totally DB-agnostic, EXCEPT for adding FOREIGN keys in Create-table (which would break on Oracle), would that be good enough?
14:21	technomancy	as long as it doesn't require code modification to switch DBs, it should be fine.
14:21	hiredman	sounds good enough to me, but I've never used Oracle
14:21	technomancy	(so just don't do the FK stuff; simply warn instead of making folks go in and disable FK-related code.)
14:22	Lau_of_DK	technomancy: You never specify which DB youre working on with ClojureQL technomancy , it always works it out on its own
14:24	technomancy	sure
14:24	Lau_of_DK	The only thing it would mean in practice, was that if you know about this, you can actually modify the create string manually when writing it up
14:25	Lau_of_DK	But standard (create-table foo [id "int" name "varchar"] :foreign-key (id bar)) would break on Oracle
14:26	technomancy	see I would prefer if it simply discarded the incompatible bits with a warning but continued to work without modification
14:26	karmazilla	Oracle supports foreign keys, doesn't it?
14:26	technomancy	... but I'm not ever going to use Oracle, so whatever. =)
14:28	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: so the issue is that you can make clojureql work for all DBs on all operations /except/ CREATE TABLE on Oracle?
14:34	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: More specifically. ClojureQL works on all major SQL implementations, with every single operation without knowing which DB its interfacing with, with 1 single exceptions: Create-table with a foreign key constraint on Oracle
14:34	Lau_of_DK	karmazilla: It sure does, but has a bad way of declaring them
14:36	danlarkin	Add check for oracle in there, I'd say. Always better to let the library encapsulate ugly code than force it on the user
14:38	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: Its not possible to add a check, because the statements never realize which DB theyre working on. I think the best path would then be in the docs to specificy, that in this unique case, supply a key like :oracle)
14:39	danlarkin	:-/ I'll never use oracle so this doesn't bother me practically, but bothers me in principle
14:39	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: I like how Django's ORM does it: common operations (selecting, inserting, updating) are DB agnostic, but it is possible to drop down to raw SQL to use some of the DB-specific features.
14:40	danlarkin	When creating a connection to the database could you allow a parameter for database type? that would be the correct place for :oracle to go
14:41	danlarkin	and then it would let you scale when you find other idiosyncrasies for other RDBMS'
14:41	Lau_of_DK	True, but the backend works very simply like (run conn-info (query foo bar baz)). Its the query construct that needs to conform to any specific syntax, not the backend bit
14:42	danlarkin	perhaps the backend could pass its db-type parameter in to query?
14:42	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: have you tried any tables or columns with mixed upper/lower case?
14:43	danlarkin	I haven't spent much time with the source of clojureql, sorry if my suggestions don't really jive with how it works
14:43	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Tried with Capital firsts
14:43	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: Its always nice to have feedback, disregarding the depths of your understanding
14:44	Chouser	hm. I'm really surprised this is the only time you've had to know which dbms you're producing SQL for.
14:45	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Its quite an impressive piece of work
14:45	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: you forgot to feign modesty :)
14:45	Lau_of_DK	Yea, I dont use that very often
14:46	hiredman	clojurebot: clojureql is also a quite impressive piece of work
14:46	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
14:46	Lau_of_DK	Chouser, if you consider this
14:46	Lau_of_DK	(create-table table1 [id "int" name "varchar(100)"] :primary id :auto-inc id)
14:47	Lau_of_DK	This will need to be written directly to either Oracle, Mysql, or Sqllite, theyre all different
14:47	Lau_of_DK	Instead we do this
14:47	Lau_of_DK	dk.bestinclass.clojureql> (vb (create-table table1 [id "int" name "varchar(100)"] :primary id :auto-inc id))
14:47	Lau_of_DK	(primary key)
14:47	Lau_of_DK	CREATE TABLE table1 ( id int,name varchar(100) )
14:47	Lau_of_DK	ALTER TABLE table1 add primary key (id)
14:47	Lau_of_DK	ALTER TABLE table1 change id id int AUTO_INCREMENT
14:47	Lau_of_DK
14:47	Lau_of_DK	(vb= View batch)
14:47	Lau_of_DK	That works on all dbms's
14:47	technomancy	sqlite supports foreign keys?
14:49	Lau_of_DK	kotarak ?
14:49	kotarak	here?
14:49	Lau_of_DK	sqllite + foreign keys?
14:50	kotarak	It seems, it is supported.
14:50	danlarkin	I definitely think eventually you're going to need to produce custom SQL for different RDBMS'. It's impressive you've gone this far without having to
14:50	technomancy	cool! guess I haven't really looked into it in a while.
14:50	Chouser	a column named FooBar requires double-quotes in psql, but mysql interprets double-quotes as a string, and requires back-quotes instead.
14:51	kotarak	This alter table was a good idea. Chapeau
14:53	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: doesn't work with postgresql
14:54	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: Post is next on my test list, most cases should work fine with it
14:54	hiredman	well, the create-table example you just gave does not
14:54	Lau_of_DK	I'll look into it
14:58	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: A little odd, since it matches what their docs specificies.. I'll have to install to check it out
14:59	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: actually I looked at it before, and from what I recall, you need the word "set" in there somewhere
14:59	Lau_of_DK	http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.4/interactive/sql-altertable.html
15:00	Lau_of_DK	If you find the ADD PRIMARY KEY example, and check your batch, you'll see its the same
15:00	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: that is not where it fails
15:00	hiredman	it fails on the auto inc bit
15:00	Lau_of_DK	"The ADD COLUMN form conforms with the SQL standard, with the exception that it does not support defaults and not-null constraints, as explained above. The ALTER COLUMN form is in full conformance. "
15:03	danlarkin	AFAIK postgres uses sequences for auto incrementing behavior
15:03	danlarkin	not int AUTO INCREMENT
15:04	Lau_of_DK	How do you mean ?
15:06	danlarkin	so I have table auth_user with "id serial NOT NULL"
15:07	danlarkin	and then I have an auth_user_id_seq sequence
15:07	hiredman	http://pointbeing.net/weblog/2008/03/mysql-versus-postgresql-adding-an-auto-increment-column-to-a-table.html
15:09	danlarkin	the first comment makes it seem not too bad to deal with
15:10	Lau_of_DK	haha
15:10	Lau_of_DK	Nice omment
15:10	Lau_of_DK	comment
16:37	durka42	i can't figure out how to formulate this with lazy-cons
16:38	durka42	the server returns 100 results at a time, and i want a lazy seq of results
16:38	durka42	if you have 100 elements, you don't know whether there is another page
16:38	durka42	if there isn't, the server throws a 404 and i get a FileNotFoundException
16:39	durka42	i've been trying things with flatten and lazy-cons, but lazy-cons seems to freeze when an exception is thrown inside it
16:39	hiredman	durka42: you can put a (try (catch)) in the rest part of the lazy-cons
16:40	durka42	i did... maybe i'm catching the wrong exception
16:40	Chouser	you want a lazy seq of more than 100?
16:40	durka42	is that a bad idea?
16:40	hiredman	wait
16:41	Chouser	no, I'm just trying to understand.
16:42	Chouser	I think I need a more concrete example. Like some code. But in general one might produce a lazy seq out of several others seqs by using 'concat'
16:42	durka42	the idea is that an http request occurs when you ask for the 100n+1'th element
16:42	durka42	right, the problem is knowing where to end it
16:43	hiredman	sounds kind of icky
16:43	durka42	i need my "rest" to either call lazy-cons again or swallow an exception and return nil
16:43	durka42	or i need to rethink this function
16:43	Chouser	ah!
16:43	durka42	i'll paste what did, except i know it can't work because recur isn't allowed across try
16:43	Chouser	lazy-cons isn't going to swallow any exception by itself, nor will it "freeze"
16:44	durka42	the freeze could be in gorilla somewhere
16:44	lisppaste8	durka pasted "broken lazy seq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73888
16:45	hiredman	you have a recur in your lazy-cons
16:45	Chouser	he knows
16:45	hiredman	that is pretty much a no-no
16:46	durka42	i guess i don't really understand how to use lazy-cons
16:46	hiredman	Chouser: you can never be sure
16:46	Chouser	durka42: I think you're close
16:52	durka42	i meant to recur to the fetch fn, because i need the offset variable as state
16:54	Chousuke	OT, but did you see this already? I'm laughing, but I think I shouldn't be. http://blog.uncool.in/2009/01/19/computer-science-fail-higher-education-in-india/
16:55	durka42	yeah that's pretty bad
16:56	Chousuke	I'd classify that as antieducation
16:56	Chousuke	better remain ignorant than be taught by someone with that level of knowledge.
16:56	danlarkin	those poor students
16:56	Lau_of_DK	Thats impressive, imagine in a general introduction stateting "to compile code hit ALT-F9"
16:57	Lau_of_DK	:)
16:57	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #73888 with "maybe more like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73888#1
16:57	Chousuke	At that point I'd probably contact the administration and request they check the professor's qualifications.
16:57	Lau_of_DK	That might be the way to go
16:59	durka42	Chouser: but, there may be an indefinite number of pages
17:00	Chouser	durka42: yes, the 'rest' part should be recursive. I didn't quite understand what the two different arg-overloaded bodies of that function were doing.
17:03	durka42	hmm, what if the second overload swallows the exception itself, and then lazy-cons will stop at nil...
17:04	durka42	i have to go, but we'll see what happens to the s-exps floating around in my head
17:04	Chouser	oh, is the one that takes 'offset' essentially just internal? never called from outside the fn?
17:04	durka42	yes
17:05	durka42	i mean, maybe if you wanted the third page -- but i kind of want the fact that it's broken up to be an implementation detail
17:05	durka42	especially because offset is only allowed to be multiples of 100
17:15	lisppaste8	Chouser annotated #73888 with "tell me if I'm getting warmer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73888#2
17:16	durka42	ooh, i like that one
17:17	durka42	so in (at 200), (request ...) dies with a FNFE, lazy-cat never gets called, and the lazy-cat from (at 100) gets a nil
17:19	Chouser	are you saying it works? this is the sort of thing you could run through seque to let it do the fetching a little ahead-of-time in another thread.
17:20	durka42	it works with a one-page query
17:20	durka42	let me try to find a two-page query
17:23	durka42	yeah, that works
17:24	durka42	thanks chouser
17:24	durka42	and thanks for the pointer to seque
17:31	Chouser	you're welcome
17:34	Chouser	it'd be pretty easy to allow for an initial offset without fetching early pages unnecessarily.
17:35	durka42	yeah, although the new york times only allows multiples of 100
17:38	technomancy	so if I accidentally def a symbol in a namespace and then realize that I actually want that symbol to refer to another namespace, how do I unset it?
17:39	hiredman	,(doc unmap)
17:39	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: unmap in this context
17:39	hiredman	,(doc ns-unmap)
17:39	clojurebot	"([ns sym]); Removes the mappings for the symbol from the namespace."
17:39	technomancy	thanks!
17:40	karmazilla	newsflash: textjure* grows new arms: undo-redo (chunking still pending), toggle/configurable word-wrap in editor and - dun-dudun - closing files! :)
17:41	hiredman	nice
17:41	danlarkin	yesss closing files!!! the killer feature!!!
17:41	danlarkin	:)
17:42	karmazilla	survey concludes: all users agree; newest feature is "the killer"
17:43	clows	wouldn't that have to be "delete files"?
17:43	Chouser	durka42: ok, but if you wanted the 104th item, right now you'd have to fetch the first 100 and throw them away.
17:43	edw	A question, karmazilla: How do you start textjure
17:43	edw	?
17:44	karmazilla	clj textjure.clj
17:44	karmazilla	where "clj" is your favority Clojure shell script
17:44	Chouser	you might need to give it a filename to open.
17:44	durka42	Chouser: yes. I added an initial-offset version, so the 104th item is (nth (donor-search "president" 2008 {...} 1) 4)
17:48	durka42	by the way, this project is bindings for http://developer.nytimes.com/docs/campaign_finance_api
17:48	edw	karmazilla: Thanks.
17:50	ecret	anyone know when clojure-dev(eclipse plugin) will be released?
17:54	edw	karmazilla: Where does textjure live? The github code looks a month old.
17:55	karmazilla	edw: my fork: http://github.com/karmazilla/textjure/tree/master
17:55	edw	Thanks.
17:59	technomancy	sweet; server-sockets.clj just got checked into contrib
18:15	technomancy	since keywords are functions of maps, is this something you should always take advantage of?
18:15	technomancy	in other words, when is it idiomatic to have the keyword first vs the map first?
18:16	danlarkin	IMO it's just preference
18:17	danlarkin	although I am trying to put the hash as the first arg
18:17	danlarkin	because I have a lot of cases where the keys are not keywords
18:18	danlarkin	so it's nice to always use the same order for lookups
18:19	Chouser	I aim for putting keywords first iff it's a literal keyword
18:19	hiredman	^-
18:20	Chouser	Dunno if that's good or correct or anything, just the rule I'm following for now. When I think of it.
18:20	technomancy	Chouser: that's what I've been doing; yeah
18:20	danlarkin	I will admit that (:keyword map) looks better than (map :keyword) to me, at least... visually
18:20	technomancy	because it's easy to tell at a glance that it's a lookup
18:21	technomancy	but when :keyword is a variable that's bound to a keyword, you don't have the colors to tell you what's going on right away, so it's better to put the map first
18:21	technomancy	am I right in supposing that the problem with this code is that it calls remove with the args in the wrong order? (dosync (alter (ref [1 2 3]) remove #(= 2 %)))
18:22	maacl	Complete newb here - Can anybody explain why I can't get the practical-cl-clojure examples at http://github.com/stuarthalloway/practical-cl-clojure/tree/master to run - I get a lot of complaints about "No such namespace: clojure"
18:22	hiredman	maacl: old code
18:22	hiredman	the clojure namespace is now clojure.core
18:23	hiredman	,(doc remove)
18:23	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns false. pred must be free of side-effects."
18:23	maacl	ok
18:24	technomancy	hiredman: but alter will try to call remove with the collection first?
18:25	hiredman	,(doc alter)
18:25	clojurebot	"([ref fun & args]); Must be called in a transaction. Sets the in-transaction-value of ref to: (apply fun in-transaction-value-of-ref args) and returns the in-transaction-value of ref."
18:25	technomancy	looks like it then.
18:25	hiredman	(apply remove [1 2 3] #(= 2 %))
18:26	hiredman	you could use partial,
18:26	technomancy	yeah, embed the call to remove inside an fn then?
18:26	hiredman	,(alter (ref [1 2 3]) (partial remove #(= 2 %)))
18:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: No transaction running
18:26	technomancy	huh
18:26	maacl	hiredman: any idea how to update it ? has this at the top:(clojure.core/in-ns 'pcl.chap_03)
18:26	maacl	(clojure.core/refer 'clojure)
18:26	maacl	(use 'clojure.core.contrib.duck-streams)
18:26	hiredman	,(dosync (alter (ref [1 2 3]) (partial remove #(= 2 %))))
18:27	clojurebot	(1 3)
18:27	technomancy	sweet.
18:27	hiredman	maacl: looks like a bug, the (clojure.core/refer 'clojure) only got halfway updated
18:27	technomancy	hiredman: what's the benefit of partial over just constructing an fn there? easier for the compiler to optimize?
18:27	hiredman	should be (clojure.core/refer 'clojure.core)
18:27	hiredman	technomancy: no idea
18:28	hiredman	it lets use a #()
18:28	technomancy	ok, will check it out; thanks
18:28	hiredman	and you cannot nest #()
18:28	Chousuke	technomancy: I think it just looks nicer. :p
18:29	hiredman	it is very functional
18:29	hiredman	partially applying functions
18:29	hiredman	I would use it way more often if I did have to type 'partial' each time
18:29	technomancy	yeah. to me the fn approach looks more recognizable, but that's just because I didn't know about partial until now I guess. =)
18:30	maacl	hiredman: thanks - that got me some of the way - now have to figure out how to get contrib working
18:30	hiredman	maacl: I think you just need a copy of the contrib jar in your classpath
21:24	gnuvince_	Is there a reason I can refer to a class by its FQDN, but cannot import it?
21:25	durka42	that seems a little strange
21:25	durka42	was the class compiled by a JVM newer than the one you are running?
21:25	Chouser	what does your attempt to import it look like?
21:25	gnuvince_	user> hu.belicza.andras.bwhf.control.BinReplayUnpacker
21:25	gnuvince_	hu.belicza.andras.bwhf.control.BinReplayUnpacker
21:25	gnuvince_	user> (import '(hu.belicza.andras.bwhf.control BinReplayUnpacker))
21:25	gnuvince_	; Evaluation aborted.
21:26	gnuvince_	Just trying to play around with the class
21:26	gnuvince_	durka42: I just compiled it now
21:29	gnuvince_	I did add the path with add-classpath
21:31	gnuvince_	Yeah, it works with -cp directly
21:49	djkthx	is this a recent change?
21:49	djkthx	user=> (clojure.contrib.str-utils/str-join "." [127 0 0 1])
21:49	djkthx	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.str-utils (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
21:49	djkthx	user=> (use 'clojure.contrib.str-utils)
21:49	djkthx	nil
21:49	djkthx	user=> (str-join "." [127 0 0 1])
21:49	djkthx	"127.0.0.1"
21:51	Chouser	you have to use 'require' or 'use' before you can call a function
21:51	Chouser	from another namespace
21:51	djkthx	even if i give the full qualified namespace?
21:51	djkthx	hmm
21:51	djkthx	weird, alright
21:51	djkthx	thanks :)
21:52	danlarkin	djkthx: weird? I've never seen a language that doesn't require such a thing
21:52	Chouser	well, you can refer to a class without ever loading it in any way
21:52	djkthx	well, weird because the beta version of the clojure book i have seems to imply you can/coule at some point
21:53	djkthx	could just be an old version
21:54	Chouser	no
21:55	Chouser	beta 4 of the book? what page?
21:55	djkthx	53
21:55	djkthx	b4
21:57	durka42	are you looking at the ellipsize example?
21:58	Chouser	intro to namespaces
21:59	durka42	oh
21:59	durka42	yes, it does say you can do that
21:59	Chouser	looks like an oversight in the prose
22:03	djkthx	hmm
22:03	djkthx	well, good to know i'm not crazy
22:08	yangsx	what are possible reasons to prefer structmap to map besides giving a name to the map for the compiler to check?
22:09	Chouser	more space efficient
22:11	yangsx	Chouser: I see.
22:11	Chouser	actually, I think that's just about it. access can be made a bit faster
22:12	devinus	what does java -server do?
22:13	Chouser	as i understand it, that causes it to use a completely different VM implementation
22:14	hiredman	the hotspot vm
22:14	Chouser	the -server vm does takes a bigger CPU hit early to do more long-term optimization
22:15	devinus	nice
22:15	devinus	is there a script that packages jLine and clojure into an easy to use unix command?
22:24	durka42	there's a pretty simplistic one here http://clojure.org/getting_started
22:24	durka42	you'd probably want to add things to the classpath, at least
22:24	durka42	also, clojure.lang.Repl has been replaced by clojure.main
22:25	hiredman	I still use Repl
22:26	hiredman	I could not figure out how to load a script and launch a Repl at the same time with clojure.main
22:26	Cark	hum
22:26	Chouser	hiredman: I asked about that on the group.
22:27	Cark	that may be why i didn't manage to make the new clojure work with slime !
22:33	Chouser	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/ea51b0fb25dbb402
22:35	hiredman	ugh
22:35	Chouser	what?
22:35	hiredman	Nothing.
22:41	hiredman	interesting
22:44	Chouser	djkthx: in the beta5 version of the book, the previous page has a call to 'use' to load str-utils and and refer str-join
22:56	djkthx	ah
22:57	djkthx	gotcha
23:24	djkthx	im curious why a LOOP macro hasn't been written for clojure
23:24	djkthx	is there anything similar?
23:24	djkthx	(like the CL macro)
23:25	Chouser	there are 'for' and 'doseq' which are vaguely related
23:25	technomancy	hrm... I updated my swank-clojure and slime, and now my slime-repl buffer doesn't show up anymore.
23:25	Chouser	LOOP is far more powerful, of corse, as well as much more complicated.
23:26	technomancy	is there a fix, or should I roll back to a known good version?
23:26	technomancy	otherwise I'm stuck with the repl I've got and have to be veeeeery careful not to quit this one session that's working. =)
23:26	Chouser	heh
23:27	Cark	technomancy : i have the same problem, i'm now using clojure-mode + a repl in inferior-lisp
23:27	Chouser	slime must be pretty great to be worth so much pain
23:27	technomancy	it is!
23:27	djkthx	slime is quite nice
23:27	technomancy	Cark: you didn't happen to notice the SHA of the last good rev, did you?
23:28	djkthx	technomancy: i had similar issues because (require 'slime-fancy) didn't work before
23:28	Cark	nope, sorry
23:28	djkthx	so i did some weirdass workaround
23:28	djkthx	if you did the same thing, switch it out for just (require 'slime-fancy) and you should be fine
23:28	technomancy	Cark: inferior-lisp is probably OK as long as C-c C-l works
23:28	technomancy	djkthx: what's slime-fancy?
23:28	djkthx	it just loads a bunch of extra stuff
23:28	djkthx	doc info, autocomplete, etc.
23:29	Cark	technomancy : ah i had to edit the source code of clojure mode to make it work
23:29	djkthx	it's a feature you add to your ~/.emacs
23:44	technomancy	yeah, inf- is pretty reasonable; doesn't look like you miss too much without rep
23:46	apage43	slime is alright...
23:46	apage43	gorilla is good enough for me =P
23:47	technomancy	http://github.com/technomancy/mire/tree/master <= my simple MUD
23:48	technomancy	server-socket is really nice; gets you what you need without a lot of java.io.fuss
23:50	Cark	hey if you have 2 players and one takes the key for instance
23:51	Cark	what happens when he is disconnected ?
23:51	technomancy	it's gone!
23:51	technomancy	forever
23:51	Cark	=)
23:51	technomancy	but it's not too big of a deal since the key isn't good for anything anyway
23:51	technomancy	the bunny, on the other hand...
23:53	technomancy	I was pretty excited just to get to the "player 1 took the key, now player 2 doesn't see it any more" stage. =)
23:54	Cark	yep pretty nice already
23:54	Cark	and very readable
23:54	technomancy	next step is to make it so players can see each other
23:55	technomancy	the logic should be very similar to take/drop of items though
23:55	Cark	and most importantly, fight the bunny !
23:55	technomancy	oh man... I should base it on Dwemthy's Array
23:55	Cark	what is it ?
23:56	technomancy	(http://poignantguide.net/dwemthy/)
23:56	technomancy	"These are the living, breathing monstrosities of Dwemthy's Array. I don't know how they got there. No one knows. Actually, I'm guessing the IntrepidDecomposedCyclist rode his ten-speed. But the others: NO ONE knows."
23:57	Cark	bleh better do your own stuff
23:58	technomancy	I don't do enough drugs to really pull something like that off