#clojure – 2009-01-14

2009-01-14

01:16	lisppaste8	durka annotated #73563 with "trivial: i reinvented a small wheel (number?)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73563#2
01:24	lisppaste8	durka annotated #73563 with "use peek in rpn-repl so that stack can truly be any type of seq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73563#3
01:25	durka	at this point i will cease and desist using lisppaste as a VCS
01:30	sleven	without reader-macros does Clojure really support syntactic abstraction? or "merely" evaluation-control?
02:21	burkelibbey	Hmm, looks like now I need to go learn Haskell so I can figure out clojure.contrib.monads... :/
02:24	burkelibbey	oh cool, I didn't notice the examples directory before.
02:24	Raynes	Learn Haskell anyways. It rocks.
02:25	burkelibbey	It's definitely on my todo list. I want to get a better grip on clojure first.
02:25	burkelibbey	I think haskell is next though
02:26	burkelibbey	How is it? I leafed through it once, but didn't take a very good look
02:26	Raynes	It's avery good book.
02:26	Raynes	a very*
02:27	burkelibbey	Hmm, maybe I'll order a copy then.
02:28	Raynes	You can read it online for free. I don't require a dead tree version.
02:29	burkelibbey	Oh right, I remember hearing that. Thanks
02:29	Raynes	book.realworldhaskell.org/read
02:30	burkelibbey	Heh, if only I could just do this stuff instead of my boring Java OO courses :P
03:54	AWizzArd	Moin
04:06	Kerris7	yay Clojure book update
04:07	Kerris7	Morning AWizzArd :)
08:11	duck1123	It would be fun to have a program that could "compile" clojure forms into java source files. The generated code would be ugly as hell, but it would be cool to play with "because you can"
08:12	duck1123	That way, burkelibbey could do his assignments in clojure, convert to java, and the teacher would be none the wiser. :)
08:12	Chousuke	he'd get bad marks for ugly code though.
08:13	duck1123	If you could keep the generated code clean and logical enough, you could convert, say clojure-contrib, then run javadoc on it
08:21	leafw	duck1123: does not sound so difficult ... nice weekend project
08:22	leafw	to render the code reasable, one would have to handle gensym-generated forms a bit better, checking for local overlaps within the java file, if any.
08:23	duck1123	I have a feeling it would prove to be more difficult than it sounds, but you would probably find something in the core code that makes it that much easier
08:23	rhickey	duck1123: the early Clojure compiler was a CL app that generated Java and C# source.
08:24	duck1123	that's cool
08:24	rhickey	readability was a non-objective :)
08:24	leafw	rhickey: one would say that macroexpand-1 inherits from those days, ehem ehem
08:25	Fib	If I have an s-expression containing arbitrary symbols and a map of symbols to values, can I evaluate that expression in a contaxt that will resolve those symbols to values in the map? Do I need to write my own eval?
08:25	duck1123	I bet it would be an interesting way to debug a tricky bit of code. Compile it to java, look through it, see what the compiler is doing and see what you need to change.
08:25	Fib	e.g. I have '(+ x 1) and {'x 1} and want to get the result 2.
08:26	duck1123	rhickey: btw, have you received my CA yet?
08:26	duck1123	Daniel E. Renfer
08:28	Chousuke	,(let [mymap {'x 2 'y 3}] (map #(get mymap % %) '(+ 1 x y)))
08:28	clojurebot	(+ 1 2 3)
08:28	Chousuke	Fib: like that
08:29	rhickey	duck1123: no, but I only check the box once a week or so
08:29	Chousuke	Fib: of course, the result will be a list. if you want to compute it, you'll need eval
08:30	duck1123	ok, my stamps were kinda old, but they said first class. Wasn't sure if they were still good, so I put 2 on.
08:31	rhickey	Linj attempted to produce readable Java from a Lisp-like language
08:31	rhickey	duck1123: sent when?
08:32	duck1123	thursday? I dropped it in the outgoing mailbox at work, so I'm conserned about that as well
08:32	Fib	Chousuke: hm, okay. That doesn't handle nested s-expressions though, and if it's modified to do so it will still miss let-bound symbols...
08:32	duck1123	I'm sure it's there
08:32	Fib	So I guess I'd have to walk the expression keeping track of rebindings on the way down
08:33	AWizzArd	When I start a fresh repl in slime and type (def fc (new javax.swing.JFileChooser)) then my Clojure hangs. As if the thread would be busy with something. Does that work for you?
09:14	StartsWithK	Fib: http://is.gd/fQGf
09:15	StartsWithK	Fib: but notice the comment: gross - please don't write code like this!!!
09:18	Fib	Haha, thanks :)
09:40	StartsWithK	AWizzArd: JFilleChooser works fine for me in standard repl, maybe a slime issue
09:41	AWizzArd	oki, I will try it from the shell
09:43	AWizzArd	yes, in the shell it works fine
09:43	AWizzArd	must be a slime issue... very strange though
09:44	AWizzArd	Anyone here who knows Swing as if he wrote it himself? ;-)
09:46	asbjxrn	I've written some code I know as well as I know swing...
09:47	Chouser	hehe
09:51	AWizzArd	Do you see a way to get out of an instance of a JFileChooser the combo box which shows directories (indented and with symbols)?
09:55	asbjxrn	Sorry, I hardly know Swing at all.
09:55	mattrepl	AWizzArd: there are problems with Swing on Windows and Emacs/Slime. don't recall if there was a workaround, may want to search the list
09:58	leafw	AWizzArd: JFileChooser is likely a Container:just inspect throgh its hierarchy of Containers and Components
10:01	AWizzArd	leafw: yes, I am doing this right now in the repl. Is there an easier way to do this? Maybe in NetBeans somehow?
10:01	asbjxrn	how do you inspect?
10:01	AWizzArd	I call (.getComponents fc) where fc is a JFileChooser
10:02	Chouser	I bet you could add a little defmethod to inspector for that, and have a nice graphical explorer of the container tree
10:04	asbjxrn	I got to learn about the inspector.
10:04	AWizzArd	I don't understand why Sun does not give users full control to anything in those ready dialogs, with easy access through some methods
10:04	asbjxrn	That is one of the things I miss from CL.
10:04	AWizzArd	asbjxrn: there is no "the inspector"
10:04	Chouser	clojure.inspector
10:05	AWizzArd	ah ok
10:05	AWizzArd	asbjxrn: yes, in CL I would (inspect fc)
10:05	asbjxrn	AWizzArd: That was my reaction about 2 minutes ago :)
10:07	asbjxrn	Also, being able to expand the backtrace when a condition happen to see local variables etc. is nice. Clojure exceptions makes me feel lost compared to that.
10:07	Chouser	hah, sweet, it works. Dunno if it's useful, though.
10:09	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "inspect swing tree" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73577
10:10	Chouser	oh, I left out the (use 'clojure.inspector)
10:11	AWizzArd	yes, nice
10:12	sleven	its not until I really learned Clojure that I saw what a big inelegant mess my Jav,C++ and Python programs were.
10:12	Chouser	sleven: I'm right there with you.
10:14	Chousuke	Well, as the saying goes, even if you never use it for real, learning lisp makes you a better programmer for the rest of your days.
10:15	Chousuke	I guess that applies to functional programming in general too
10:23	lisppaste8	asbjxrn pasted "Performance challenge, how much can you improve this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73578
10:24	asbjxrn	(Thought I'd submit this to the performance thread in the clojure group, do anyone see any improvements first.)
10:25	asbjxrn	This is one step in this fluid dynamics solver: http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/people/stam/reality/Research/pdf/GDC03.pdf
10:26	asbjxrn	It gets called 3 times for each frame, and is presented as if it is to be used for games, so I suspect they need a reasonable framerate.
10:28	Chousuke	asbjxrn: I get an exception trying to run that.
10:28	Chousuke	I wonder if it's slime's fault :/
10:28	asbjxrn	Oops.
10:31	asbjxrn	(def foo (make-grid)) should be (def foo (ref (make-grid)))
10:32	Chousuke	I wonder why the classcast exception just says "[F" though
10:32	Chousuke	not very helpful
10:33	asbjxrn	I think it's the start of the name of the array, see the return value from the function.
10:34	asbjxrn	It tried to cast it to a ref
10:36	karmazilla	I think [F is the classname for a primitive array of floats. Could be wrong about the floats part though
10:36	asbjxrn	I think you're right.
10:37	Chousuke	why is it a ref though?
10:40	asbjxrn	A little bit cleaner I thought. After the diffusion is done, the result needs to be copied into the grid array again. It was either using a ref of looping through an copy.
10:43	asbjxrn	The ref is only dereferenced once, so the overhead is minimal. I was a bit worried about creating a new array for each time the function is called as well. But that seems quick as well.
10:45	asbjxrn	The original algorithm avoids that, of course. It allocates two arrays and swaps the pointers to them. I think of refs as pointers, so..
10:47	Chousuke	as far as I can see, you don't do anything useful with that ref :/
10:52	gnuvince	Guys, I'm getting some weird results when reading from urandom from Clojure
10:52	gnuvince	> (let [buf (reader "/dev/urandom")] (for [_ (range 20)] (.read buf)))
10:52	gnuvince	(65533 65533 120 16 84 71 60 36 65533 65533 29 72 65533 14 65533 17 64 65533 65533 65533)
10:52	gnuvince	If I try the same code with Haskell or Python, I don't get any 65533
10:54	asbjxrn	Chousuke: This is just part of the algorithm. But a time critical part so any improvements here makes a big difference.
10:55	Chousuke	gnuvince: try with java?
10:55	gnuvince	Chousuke: I probably should
10:56	gnuvince	Chousuke: it was just easier with languages where it was a single line and in a REPL
10:56	Chousuke	also, definline seems broken :/
10:59	Chousuke	I wanted to make a gget helper to get rid of the (aget diffused-grid ...) repetition but making a local fn raises the execution time by an order of magnitute
10:59	Chousuke	magnitude*
11:00	Chousuke	even though the jvm really should be autoinlining it, it seems like it's not even trying. :p
11:02	asbjxrn	Hmm. Maybe I should check if it's the calculations or the array lookups that take time.
11:03	karmazilla	calls on interface types are harder to optimize, methinks
11:05	Chousuke	I wish there were a way to define local inline fns :/
11:05	Chousuke	sort of minimacros
11:06	asbjxrn	Shouldn't a array lookup be pretty fast anyway? Almost like a ref/pointer?
11:07	Chousuke	the lookup is probably as fast as it can be
11:07	Chouser	Chousuke: I think that's called 'macrolet' and is on Rich's wishlist.
11:08	Chouser	definline is used in core.clj. How broken could it be?
11:09	gnuvince	Chousuke: found my problem. I switched to a FileInputStream and it fixed the problem.
11:10	asbjxrn	Hmm, 50% of the time is in the aset, it seems. But then, maybe the JIT optimizes more if the value isn't used for anything.
11:10	Chousuke	Chouser: maybe I don't understand how it's used
11:10	Chousuke	user=> (definline foo [] (+ 1 1))
11:10	Chousuke	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
11:10	gnuvince	> (let [stream (java.io.FileInputStream. "/dev/urandom")] (for [_ (range 20)] (.read stream)))
11:10	gnuvince	(168 64 2 210 238 108 10 128 156 41 65 167 79 218 213 10 205 175 169 239)
11:10	Chouser	gnuvince: It was being read as UTF-8.
11:10	asbjxrn	(sorry, 30%, not 50%)
11:11	gnuvince	Chouser: yeah, someone explained to me that Streams read bytes and Readers read characters.
11:12	StartsWithK	will something brake if i move from rev1132 to rev1194 or rev1207? I looked but didn't find anything that looks like it will break code that worked with rev1132
11:12	StartsWithK	is rev1207 'safe', i see there is new stream stuff in there, will that break any old behaviour?
11:13	Chouser	StartsWithK: you can always got back if the new version breaks something.
11:13	Chouser	if there's any stream stuff in trunk, it's non-breaking changes.
11:14	StartsWithK	i know, just asking, i would like to get watcher for refs and condp, they look realy good
11:15	karmazilla	asbjxrn: the JIT can make your code do nothing a trillion times in no time at all :)
11:19	Chouser	Chousuke: definline works more like a macro
11:20	Chouser	hm, though I can't get that to work either.
11:21	StartsWithK	for what sould unquote be used?
11:21	StartsWithK	is there any example?
11:22	Chousuke	it's there for the occasion that you want to assign your own semantics to ~foo
11:22	Chouser	StartsWithK: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/62437f3b96835b58
11:23	Chouser	I think ClojureQL is actually using it for real now.
11:24	Chouser	using the definline examples directly from core.clj at my repl still break. How can that be?
11:25	Chouser	maybe they have to be compiled now?
11:27	StartsWithK	Chouser: thanks, will look in ClojureQL for more examples
11:29	ccmtaylor	hi all, quick newbie question: i'm writing a macro and want to conditionally include some stuff in a form, if it's non-nil...
11:30	StartsWithK	and are there maybe any examples of using watcher for refs to create similar effect to the one in http://is.gd/fRKs
11:31	ccmtaylor	`(stuff ~@(when conditional-stuff [conditional-stuff]) more-stuff)
11:31	ccmtaylor	works, but seems un-pretty. does anyone have a better solution?
11:32	Chouser	ccmtaylor: Off the top of my head, I think that's about as pretty as you're going to get.
11:32	StartsWithK	ccmtaylor: is 'stuff' ok to accept nil for its first argument?
11:32	Chouser	StartsWithK: the only watcher example I know of is one I wrote for watching agents.
11:33	Chouser	But I know a much smaller percentage of what's going on in the Clojure world than I used to. ...getting hard to keep up.
11:34	ccmtaylor	StartsWithK: no, it needs to be completely not-there
11:35	Chouser	ccmtaylor: I think the only other route is to cons up the form, which is not likely to be prettier than what you've got.
11:35	ccmtaylor	ok, thanks!
11:36	StartsWithK	yes, you'll have to have two routes to that `(stuff ...) expansion then
11:36	Chouser	hm, you could filter the list after you've made it.
11:37	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Its a shame you dont have enough time to keep up anymore, do you want to tips on some Clojure/SQL implementations?
11:37	Chouser	ccmtaylor: (defn f [x] (remove nil? `(stuff ~(when (odd? x) x) 2 3)))
11:37	Chouser	seems a bit dangerous though. I think ~@( ... [foo]) is fine
11:38	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: give tips? get tips?
11:38	Lau_of_DK	s/to/some :)
11:38	Lau_of_DK	Oh, you want more money?
11:38	Lau_of_DK	fine...
11:39	ccmtaylor	Chouser: nice idea, but it won;t work in my case since there might be more nils in the form. Guess, i'll leave it like it is.
11:39	ccmtaylor	won't
11:41	Chouser	you could use some other sentinel besides nil
11:41	Chouser	I'm not really arguing for this, just trying to drum up options.
11:42	Chouser	(defn f [x] (remove #{:skipit} `(stuff ~(if (odd? x) x :skipit) 2 nil)))
11:59	_hrrld	Ratios are so awesome, and Java floats are so lame in comparison. It's really paining me calling Math/sin and Math/toRadians on my beautiful ratios. Is there any way to preserve ratios while calculating sine/cosine?
12:01	_hrrld	(Math/sin 52163/16604) ;le cry.
12:06	Chouser	_hrrld: I suppose you'd have to write your own, or try to convert back to a ratio after calling Math/sin
12:24	drewr	Does dispatching to defmethods occur in any particular order?
12:25	drewr	Since methodTable is a PersistentHashMap in MultiFn, I'm guessing not.
12:44	Lau_of_DK	Is there a clojure-func to upper-case a string?
12:45	danlarkin	yes
12:45	danlarkin	(.toUpperCase "foo")
12:45	danlarkin	:)
12:45	danlarkin	or, if you prefer, #(.toUpperCase %)
12:47	Lau_of_DK	Gotcha
12:47	Lau_of_DK	Thanks
12:54	lisppaste8	durka pasted "is there a way to do this without the ~' ugliness?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73582
12:57	Chouser	durka: are you willing to let the caller pass in the name to be used, instead of always capturing 'get-value'?
12:58	durka	i'd rather not...
12:58	durka	this is related to the RPN thing i was playing with yesterday
12:59	durka	where quasiquote wants to resolve things at macroexpansion time but i'd like it to wait
12:59	durka	(is it called quasiquote?)
12:59	Chouser	if you want to capture a name, ~' is the way to do it.
12:59	durka	ok
13:00	Chousuke	it serves as a hint that capturing names is ugly :)
13:08	durka	fair enough
13:49	Lau_of_DK	Anyone here, whos strong on the SQL statement Alter ?
13:51	gnuvince	Is it possible to get the address of an object in clojure? Something like id() in Python
13:52	Lau_of_DK	For what purpose would you need that gnuvince ?
13:52	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: I would like to show to someone that structures share data and are not copied
13:52	gnuvince	But he's got a Thomas syndrome
13:53	Lau_of_DK	hmmm
13:54	Lau_of_DK	http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t145498-how-to-get-address-of-a-java-object.html
13:54	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: Theres a discussion which ends with the conclusion that its not possible
13:55	gnuvince	hmmm
13:55	gnuvince	I could probably use identical? then
13:56	Lau_of_DK	Couldnt you make a specific example and then refer to the clojure source code?
13:56	gnuvince	I think I can manage with identical?
13:56	Chouser	gnuvince: you may be able to use .hashCode
13:58	Chouser	,(let [a '(3 2 1) b (cons 4 a)] (map #(.hashCode %) [a b (rest b)]))
13:58	clojurebot	(1800990793 -467838107 1800990793)
13:59	gnuvince	,(.hashCode "hi")
13:59	clojurebot	3329
13:59	gnuvince	,(.hashCode "hi")
13:59	clojurebot	3329
13:59	Lau_of_DK	Chouser, doesnt your example show that the structure is shared?
14:00	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: that was the idea, wasn't it?
14:00	Lau_of_DK	I was under the impression that no structure was ever shared, because if you modified one, an entire new collection would be formed
14:01	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: no, a major advantage of immutable collections is that you can share structure safely, since none of it can be changed.
14:01	karmazilla	there's System/identityHashCode - closest thing to python's id() I think
14:02	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: yes of course, youre right
14:02	Lau_of_DK	I didnt have my thinking cap on :(
14:02	Chouser	karmazilla: that appears to be the same as .hashCode
14:03	Chouser	karmazilla: no, you're right. identityHashCode is what you want.
14:03	karmazilla	that depends on the object.. but Object.hashcode calls identityHashCode
14:04	gnuvince	,(let [x1 (list "one" "two" "three") x2 (conj x1 "zero")] (every? #(apply identical %) (map vector x1 (rest x2)))
14:04	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
14:04	Chouser	,(let [a {} b (dissoc {:c 1} :c)] (map #(vector (.hashCode %) (System/identityHashCode %)) [a b]))
14:04	clojurebot	([0 16638032] [0 26336541])
14:04	gnuvince	,(let [x1 (list "one" "two" "three") x2 (conj x1 "zero")] (every? #(apply identical? %) (map vector x1 (rest x2)))
14:04	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
14:05	gnuvince	wth?
14:05	Chouser	one more )
14:05	gnuvince	damn
14:05	gnuvince	,(let [x1 (list "one" "two" "three") x2 (conj x1 "zero")] (every? #(apply identical? %) (map vector x1 (rest x2))))
14:05	clojurebot	true
14:05	gnuvince	there
14:06	gnuvince	Writing Lisp code without paren-match is pretty hard
14:07	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince: you mean, you dont chat in emacs?
14:07	gnuvince	Lau_of_DK: irssi
14:07	gnuvince	I used to before with rcirc
14:07	Lau_of_DK	oh.. switch to emacs, then you can enable paredit on irc if you like :)
14:07	Lau_of_DK	:(
14:07	gnuvince	Yeah
14:07	Lau_of_DK	rcirc was really lacking if you ask me. ERC is cool though
14:07	gnuvince	There are some real advantages to using Emacs for IRC
14:07	gnuvince	paren matching, auto completion of words other than nicks, searching backwards
14:08	gnuvince	I think I lost my ERC config a few years ago
14:08	Lau_of_DK	Yea, and especially, you can send all of Chousers tips straight to the REPL
14:08	gnuvince	That too
14:11	Chousuke	I'm not that much of a lisper that I would give up irssi
14:13	erohtar	.
14:13	replaca	I've become kind of addicted to irssi + screen. I can lurk from wherever I sit down (I've even had conversations on the subway)
14:13	erohtar	danlarkin: thanks for your time yesterday on helping me with clojure-json
14:13	erohtar	danlarkin: it was a problem of the incoming json string being escaped twice -
14:14	danlarkin	erohtar: no problem. good to hear you solved it
14:34	Chouser	not yet halfway through January, and the group already has twice as many posts as all of September.
14:35	danlarkin	I can't keep up anymore :-/
14:36	Chouser	there have been a couple attempts at summarizing the "important" threads, but I think the volume has overwhelmed those who were attempting it.
14:37	rhickey	Chouser: it does test the limits of all apps I try to manage it with
14:39	Chouser	gmail is hanging on for me, but I had to change tack a bit today -- we'll see if this holds up.
14:41	Lau_of_DK	Chouser: Tried thunderbird + digests ?
14:41	Chouser	nope
14:41	Lau_of_DK	I suspects its easier to keep up with, but I still cant keep up
14:42	Chouser	I really don't think digests would work for me, unless I wanted to stop posting and just read.
14:42	Chouser	Which come to think of it might be better for everyone.
14:44	rhickey	Mail.app is so much better than GMail at letting you walk through what's new - gmail's threaded-only viewing is fail
14:44	rhickey	for me
14:46	danlarkin	I appreciate that I can navigate with the keyboard only. Expand a thread with the right arrow, View next message with up arrow, close the thread with left, etc
14:47	Chouser	I use vi keybindings in gmail. :-)
14:47	danlarkin	mind boggled
14:47	hiredman	hit the escape key alot while trying to write emails in gmail
14:48	hiredman	I
14:48	Chousuke	does it delete all text? :)
14:48	Chouser	I edit emails in vim. Esc is ok.
14:48	hiredman	nope
14:48	Lau_of_DK	Also, you can get the mails directly in Emacs if you like
14:48	hiredman	it does nothing
14:49	hiredman	actually, I hit "<esc>:w<enter>"
14:49	Chousuke	I have vim keybindings for my browser... really nice. Though some sites suck for keyboard browsing
14:50	hiredman	clojurebot: mock?
14:50	clojurebot	Your mock object is a joke; that object is mocking you. For needing it. -- rhicky
14:50	Lau_of_DK	name mispelled :)
14:52	Lau_of_DK	http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/14/1312210
14:52	Lau_of_DK	Qt goes LGPL
15:13	hiredman	being able to roll everything into a jar file and ship it out is so nice
15:34	Lau_of_DK	Kota and I had planned to have an RC at January 15, and it looks like we're very close. If some of you who are knowledable in SQL could have a look through http://github.com/Lau-of-DK/clojureql/tree/master I'd be very grateful for your feedback. Especially if you find features missing that we havent yet implemented, but you badly want.
15:37	rhickey	asbjxrn: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/967ebe3133aa25ec
15:58	red_fish	someone can explain to me
15:58	red_fish	(defn add-points [& pts]
15:58	red_fish	(vec (apply map + pts)))
15:58	red_fish	(add-points [10 10] [-1 0])
15:59	red_fish	I don't understand (apply map + pts)
15:59	danlarkin	do you understand map and apply?
15:59	red_fish	yep
15:59	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: I dont think he does, no
15:59	red_fish	what is the order of evaluation?
15:59	danlarkin	red_fish: well then it's just applying map + to pts
16:00	kotarak	(apply map + pts) <=> (apply map + (list [10 10] [-1 0])) <=> (map + [10 10] [-1 0]) <=> (list (+ 10 -1) (+ 10 0))
16:03	red_fish	kotarak: (apply #(map + %1 %2) (list [10 10] [-1 0]))
16:03	red_fish	kotarak: is it the same?
16:03	red_fish	how can apply know infer that "map +" is the function?
16:03	hiredman	,(apply #(map + %1 %2) (list [10 10] [-1 0]))
16:03	clojurebot	(9 10)
16:04	hiredman	map + is not the function
16:04	hiredman	map is the function
16:04	hiredman	+ is just another argument
16:04	hiredman	(that happens to be a function)
16:04	kotarak	and takes + as argument
16:04	kotarak	right
16:05	kotarak	(apply func arg1 ... argn arglist) (where arglist is something seqable)
16:05	hiredman	ring is a nice, but I think I like compojure's vector -> html stuff better than clj-html's
16:05	danlarkin	red_fish: sorry if what I said confused you. I guess I should have said it's applying map to pts, where map is also taking + as an arg
16:05	red_fish	kotarak: is this equivalent (apply map (list + [10 10] [-1 0]))?
16:06	kotarak	I think so.
16:06	hiredman	,(apply map (list + [10 10] [-1 0]))
16:06	clojurebot	(9 10)
16:06	red_fish	,(apply map (list + [10 10] [-1 0]))
16:06	clojurebot	(9 10)
16:06	red_fish	cool
16:06	kotarak	,(apply map + [10 10] [[-1 0]])
16:06	clojurebot	(9 10)
16:07	red_fish	thank you very much
16:07	kotarak	np
16:07	red_fish	I think i wanna see the source of "apply"
16:07	Chousuke	hiredman: clj-html is faster though.
16:07	kotarak	src/clj/clojure/core.clj
16:07	hiredman	Chousuke: I see
16:07	red_fish	kotarak: thx
16:09	Chouser	red_fish: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/browse/trunk/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#367
16:10	danlarkin	and let me assure you, apply _is_ lazy :-D
16:10	hiredman	danlarkin: what?
16:11	hiredman	madness
16:11	danlarkin	:o
16:18	karmazilla	madness? this is Clojure!
16:21	Chouser	I love lazy apply. Another one of those features where my first reaction was simply to assume it was impossible.
16:21	Chouser	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (take 3 r)]) (iterate inc 0))
16:21	clojurebot	[0 1 (2 3 4)]
16:25	gnuvince	neat<
16:27	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: I know something I'd really like to see in clojureql: postgres support
16:29	kotarak	danlarkin: Ideally you just load the postgres JDBC driver and it "should work". For some definition of should and work. I have no experience with the different databases, but MySQL and SQLite work at the moment.
16:29	Chousuke	hmm
16:30	Chousuke	,(apply (fn [a b] (list a b)) (iterate inc 0))
16:30	clojurebot	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space
16:30	Chousuke	I guess the infinite seq goes to a in that case?
16:31	red_fish	(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (apply identity (take 3 r))]) (iterate inc 0))
16:32	red_fish	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (apply identity (take 3 r))]) (iterate inc 0))
16:32	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: core$identity
16:32	red_fish	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (apply map identity (take 3 r))]) (iterate inc 0))
16:32	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
16:33	Chouser	Chousuke: odd -- you should have gotten a "Wrong number of args"
16:34	red_fish	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (take 3 r)]) (iterate inc 0))
16:34	clojurebot	[0 1 (2 3 4)]
16:35	Chouser	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (map identity (take 3 r))]) (iterate inc 0)) ; red_fish: looking for this?
16:35	clojurebot	[0 1 (2 3 4)]
16:35	red_fish	Chouser: yes
16:36	Chouser	of course since 'map' is also lazy, you can move the 'map' to inside the 'take
16:36	red_fish	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (appy map identity (take 3 r))]) (iterate inc 0))
16:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: appy in this context
16:37	red_fish	,(apply (fn [a b & r] [a b (apply map identity (take 3 r))]) (iterate inc 0))
16:37	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: Integer
16:46	burkelibbey	Does clojure have a function like cons, but with a reversed signature? Is (defn revcons [coll x] (cons x coll)) the best way to do it?
16:46	kotarak	(doc conj)
16:46	clojurebot	conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type.; arglists ([coll x] [coll x & xs])
16:46	rhickey	burkelibbey: conj works that way, for all collections
16:47	burkelibbey	Ah, I thought conj added to the end of a collection, but apparently I was using a vector without really realizing :P. Thanks.
16:48	red_fish	(doc conj)
16:48	clojurebot	conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type.; arglists ([coll x] [coll x & xs])
16:53	red_fish	can I use ctags with clojure?
16:54	kotarak	red_fish: I write a simple cljtags.
16:54	red_fish	cool
16:54	kotarak	red_fish: http://bitbucket.org/kotarak/cljtags/ there is only a repo at the moment, but it has download link
17:15	gnuvince_	Hmmm
17:15	gnuvince_	Somebody ought to reply to Slava on reddit to point out that Clojure is not like the Lisp he mentions
17:16	rhickey	link?
17:16	gnuvince_	Me again?
17:17	gnuvince_	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7pohw/why_haskell_is_beyond_ready_for_prime_time/c071i7o
17:18	rhickey	Not sure there's a point to arguing with Slava about this, he doesn't think it benefits Clojure much to have access to Java libs
17:20	gnuvince_	Really?
17:27	Nafai	I think Slava has sufficiently demonstrated that he has no interest in the Java language or platform
17:28	Chouser	I do think there's remarkably little scolding here
17:29	albino	they're talking about that thread in #concatenative right now, you could join them and make it real time
17:30	rhickey	Chouser: yes, I'm extremely pleased with this irc and the google group for general pleasantness, helpfulness and respectfulness
17:30	Lau_of_DK	Funny argument Slava puts forth, he's not entirely wrong
17:32	karmazilla	something is wrong with swing :(
17:35	Chouser	karmazilla: seems likely :-)
17:35	Nafai	:)
17:37	karmazilla	a JList and a TextField... KeyEvents to the text field will modify the ListModel for the jlist, but the damn thing only figures out that it needs to redraw after I make a second event happen, so the contents of the displayed list is always one keystroke behind... who the hell thought that up?
17:46	karmazilla	ohh... a little animal of mythical origin shared with me the arcane secrets of SwingUtilities.invokeLater. I'm a now bewildered by its magic
17:46	Chouser	karmazilla: there's a macro for that in textjure.clj
17:48	karmazilla	yeah, that might have been the animal, but I am still prototyping with netbeans and its gui builder from the land of control
17:49	karmazilla	it's the document-switcher-slash-file-opener for textjure that I'm trying to build :)
18:03	meredydd	Hey all. Is there a convention for calling out of a sub-namespace?
18:03	meredydd	Say I have two components X and Y that each need to send events to the other
18:04	meredydd	If I define them as 'com.xxx.X and 'com.xxx.Y, then (:require) them both from 'com.xxx, I have a forward-definitions problem.
18:04	meredydd	Is there a conventional way of handling this situation?
18:06	hiredman	meredydd: have them require each other?
18:06	meredydd	hiredman: That didn't work last time I tried it
18:06	meredydd	Can't remember the failure mode now - might just be an infinite loop of interpreter-ness
18:10	meredydd	hiredman: Yeah, there we go. "No such var: com.xxx.x/var"
18:11	durka	isn't this was declare is for?
18:11	hiredman	meredydd: a.a requires a.a.a requires a.a.b requires a.a.a
18:11	meredydd	declare? Fee fi fo fum, I smell a new keyword.
18:11	durka	(doc declare)
18:11	clojurebot	defs the supplied var names with no bindings, useful for making forward declarations.; arglists ([& names])
18:12	Chousuke	can you declare vars in other namespaces? :/
18:12	hiredman	durka: declare would not work across namespaces I don't think
18:12	durka	yes
18:12	meredydd	Chousuke: Nope.
18:12	hiredman	,(declare 'foo/fum)
18:12	clojurebot	DENIED
18:12	Chousuke	so your problem is that a.a.b and a.a.a call each other directly.
18:12	hiredman	clojurebot: thanks man
18:12	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:12	Chousuke	add indirection!
18:12	durka	(binding [ns ns] (in-ns 'other) (def a b))
18:13	meredydd	durka: Yep, but then you've got to break up your (ns) and do all your definitions before your use/require/etc statements
18:13	durka	seems like there should be a better way to do this
18:13	meredydd	durka: ...or you've got to do something unpleasant like that.
18:13	meredydd	(which is what I've been doing so far. But it's frankly ugly.)
18:13	durka	how does java handle it?
18:14	hiredman	meredydd: what I said should work
18:14	hiredman	I just tried it
18:14	meredydd	hiredman: Try referring to a var in a.a.a from a.a.b
18:14	meredydd	and vice versa
18:14	meredydd	that'll break it.
18:15	meredydd	durka: javac copes with mutual references between classes supplied in the same invocation.
18:15	meredydd	durka: It's a regular problem when spanning different languages (eg one class in Groovy, one in Java - there's no simple way of having each of them refer to the other)
18:16	durka	i see
18:17	hiredman	meredydd: what I said works fine here
18:17	meredydd	Where's the local pastebin?
18:17	hiredman	lisppaste8: url?
18:17	meredydd	clojurebot: paste
18:17	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:17	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:18	meredydd	Oh, well - worth a shot :)
18:18	hiredman	clojurebot: paste is http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure
18:18	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
18:18	walters	meredydd: groovy actually has a joint compiler, so it can do that
18:18	meredydd	walters: That was a later development, explicitly developed to solve that problem.
18:19	walters	meredydd: http://groovy.codehaus.org/The+groovyc+Ant+Task
18:19	meredydd	(I first tried Groovy before that was introduced, when it was still a publicised "gotcha", and haven't gone back to it since; my apologies for being out of date)
18:19	walters	yeah, it's relatively recent
18:20	meredydd	(My point was that it requires explicit compiler smarts.)
18:20	walters	yeah...ideally there would be a way for a language to plug into javac, so it sees ".clj" -> hand off to clojure.Compiler etc
18:20	lisppaste8	meredydd pasted "reference problems" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73606
18:21	erohtar	hey - does anyone know if dynamic variables set via binding are visible through agents?
18:21	meredydd	hiredman: That breaks, with the error message I pasted.
18:21	walters	there's some sort of compiler API now, but I don't know whether it helps with this at all
18:22	meredydd	erohtar: Give an example? Generally not - dynamic bindings are thread-local, and agents run in a separate thread.
18:22	hiredman	meredydd: you are correct, I did not have enough references between namespaces to check everything
18:22	erohtar	meredydd: ah, i see - makes sense
18:22	meredydd	hiredman: That's why I said "[23:17:19] <meredydd> hiredman: Try referring to a var in a.a.a from a.a.b, and vice versa"
18:23	erohtar	meredydd: so if I need to do something from an agent that involves changing a dynamic variable, i should do it from the function i use in the send?
18:24	meredydd	erohtar: No; the function you send will run in the agent's thread(pool), and won't see the dynamic binding either.
18:24	erohtar	meredydd: right - ok... so can i change the dynamic binding within that function, then?
18:24	meredydd	erohtar: Generally speaking, if it's a value you want to change, you should be using Refs. Think of (binding)s as "temporarily set this variable to this value"
18:25	meredydd	Refs are "this is a value that can change over time"
18:25	erohtar	meredydd: well, in my case, im using a dynamic variable to hold database config information, which I want to set at call time
18:26	rhickey	meredydd: hm?
18:26	meredydd	rhickey: How do I cope with mutual references between two namespaces?
18:26	meredydd	eg, I have com.xxx.x and com.xxx.y and they both want to talk to each other.
18:27	meredydd	(say, each wants to call a funciton in the other)
18:27	rhickey	meredydd: don't do it
18:27	meredydd	And if the answer is "that's the wrong question, you're doing it wrong", what patterns should I be using instead?
18:27	meredydd	Thought that would be the answer :)
18:27	meredydd	So what should I be doing instead?
18:28	hiredman	meredydd: if they are subname spaces of another name space, maybe they a can just assume they are both there and leave out the require
18:28	meredydd	It's not easy to write, say, a message queue in the parent namespace that the the two can use to communicate
18:28	meredydd	(because the (:require) and (:use) clauses of the parent's (ns) macro come before any of the parent's (def)s)
18:29	meredydd	and by "not easy" I don't mean "insurmountably hard", I mean "it's breaking the expected usage of the (ns) macro, therefore probably isn't the right way to be going about things"
18:35	hiredman	I think it may be time to re-examine your purpose in creating such a namespace arrangement
18:39	meredydd	That's quite possible; nay, probable.
18:41	meredydd	I have a suspicion that there is such a thing as a legitimate need for two components to talk to one another, rather than forcing one to be effectively a library called by the other
18:43	meredydd	In this particular case, there are ways I can make one a library of the other, and pass in function pointers for the callouts, but I still feel slightly unpleasant.
18:43	meredydd	That said, last time I was convinced I was right and Rich was wrong....well, you can guess the result :)
18:43	danlarkin	is it too complicated for an summary of what each does?
18:44	Chousuke	if they're interlocked libraries, is there a reason they aren't in the same namespace?
18:44	hiredman	^-
18:47	meredydd	danlarkin: Okay...
18:47	meredydd	Chousuke: Essentially, because they're too big to put the whole hairball in one file; I'd like to destructure it a little.
18:48	grosours	Hi everybody
18:48	meredydd	danlarkin: A chat system that falls back to email.
18:48	Chousuke	meredydd: well, you can put some code in another file and just (load) it, can't you=
18:49	meredydd	The webchat system is a hairy MVC beast that definitely wants to live in its own namespace.
18:49	Chousuke	hmm :/
18:49	meredydd	The mail system is also moderately hairy, and I don't want to go blending it with anything else.
18:49	danlarkin	Hmmmm
18:50	meredydd	Depending on whether there's a chat session open (ie internal state of chat system), mails need to be intercepted and diverted to chat
18:50	danlarkin	can you do something like have a 3rd file with a function like send-chat-or-email ?
18:50	meredydd	And when a chat session times out, unseen messages get dispatched via the email system.
18:51	meredydd	danlarkin: How would that work? That function sounds like it would want to refer to functions in both the chat and email systems...and yet both the chat and email systems would want to refer to it.
18:51	danlarkin	nah
18:52	danlarkin	it'd call try-to-send-chat and if that fails it calls try-to-send-email
18:52	danlarkin	or whatever
18:52	danlarkin	oh
18:52	meredydd	Okay. Now, in what namespace is 'try-to-send-chat located?
18:53	meredydd	(I take it that "oh" was you getting the problem)
18:53	danlarkin	haha
18:53	danlarkin	...maybe :)
18:54	meredydd	Now, this kind of thing happens all the time at the within-namespace level, and we solve the problem with forward declarations (empty (def)s, or nowadays the (declare) macro)
18:54	Chousuke	maybe you need to abstract away the message handling somehow
18:55	meredydd	I'm just curious as to why rhickey is so certain that such a thing is illegitimate between two namespaces when it's legitimate between two functions
18:55	hiredman	shrug
18:55	Chousuke	mail system receives message, notifies some message center, message center sees chat system is interested, forwards to it
18:55	Chousuke	hmm
18:56	meredydd	aand once again, we have the mail system needing to refer to the message center, but the message center needing to refer to the mail system, and...
18:57	Chousuke	the message center doesn't need to directly know about the mail system. the mail system could just tell the message center that it produces messages of type "mail"
18:58	meredydd	yep, and then pass in a handler function for messages of type "mail", and chat does the same thing...
18:58	hiredman	you could leave out the require and have a fourth file that requires all three
18:58	meredydd	But now we're reinventing something that smells distinctly like Enterprise Java, just to try to dance around the fact that we have a circular reference. (Which we still do, because the string "mail" will be hard-coded into the chat system)
18:58	meredydd	hiredman: How does that work?
19:00	hiredman	actually
19:01	hiredman	you may want a look at the clojurebot code
19:01	meredydd	?
19:01	hiredman	(the ns and callback stuff is Chousuke's)
19:02	meredydd	Oh, yes. If you want to do it with callbacks, that's all very well.
19:02	hiredman	yeah
19:02	hiredman	it is very well
19:02	meredydd	You create both halves as libraries with empty callbacks for "send mail" and "intercept-message?"
19:03	meredydd	(with specific signatures designed to match their one and only implementation...)
19:03	hiredman	meredydd: the control center has a place where message handlers can latch on to
19:03	Chouser	I find I have to use 'declare' only very rarely in well-organized files.
19:03	meredydd	then write a separate NS which just wires them together by plugging one's functions into the other's callbacks
19:04	meredydd	Chouser: Oh, I agree. In fact, in this example, I want to use it all of once. (Maybe twice.)
19:05	hiredman	meredydd: you can have the ns plug themselves into the callbacks
19:05	meredydd	hiredman: How? By referencing which common component?
19:06	hiredman	meredydd: http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/369ceedc238d8fe1539e0bca3b087d89827523ca/hiredman/clojurebot/svn.clj
19:06	hiredman	line 85
19:06	hiredman	when the ns is loaded
19:07	hiredman	it calls that function, which hooks it in to the dispatching function in hiredman.clojurebot.core
19:07	meredydd	(And if this common component is anything like the "message center" referred to earlier, which dispatches to functions or handlers based on strings, we've just "solved" the syntactic issue by implementing exactly the same dependency, at great length, in a value domain less suited for the job (identifying functions with strings rather than function pointers))
19:08	meredydd	Aha. You're dispatching on regexp there?
19:09	hiredman	meredydd: you big long message there does not make sense to me, so we must be talking across each other, so maybe I should stop talking if it is just noise
19:10	Chousuke	it's not a very clean solution though. it lacks priorities so the first dispatch that matches gets called :P
19:10	hiredman	:P
19:11	hiredman	I am not suggesting he take it verbatim
19:11	hiredman	I am suggesting a similar model could be used
19:11	meredydd	hiredman: I guess all I was trying to say was that building a full dispatch mechanism is overkill when all I ever want to do here is have component A call component B, and B call A.
19:12	hiredman	meredydd: you can do that, just leave out the requires and load the files
19:13	meredydd	Yeah, I guess. I'd just prefer not to have to sacrifice the internal namespace structures of A and B to do this.
19:14	meredydd	Anyway, you're right here; I think this is a round-in-circles maneuver.
19:15	meredydd	I guess I'll do it the hacky way, with forward declarations, and if one day someone clever comes along and shows me how I should have done this more simply then I'll change it.
19:53	erohtar	can anyone tell me how agents die? i see that the thead count is increasing (under Activity Monitor)...
19:54	durka	you mean how to forcibly kill them?
20:03	erohtar	durka: no, do they (the associated thread) die when the function sent to them is over?
20:04	durka	i don't think so, not necessarily
20:04	Chouser	an agent is not a thread. When the action is complete, the thread returns to the pool.
20:05	durka	even with send-off?
20:05	Chouser	The agent stays around as long as something is referencing it, after that it can be GC'd
20:05	erohtar	chouser: ok understood, then why does the thead-count increase?
20:05	erohtar	chouser: also - is there a limit to the size of the thread-pool?
20:05	Chouser	durka: yes, even with send-off.
20:06	Chouser	send's use a pool that's capped based on the number of CPUs. send-off's pool will grow as needed, but when the action is done the thread can hang around for a later send-off to another (or the same) agent.
20:07	erohtar	chouser: ok thanks
20:08	Chouser	I don't think the send-off pool should ever have more threads than the maximum number of actions being processed at one time.
20:11	Chouser	,(.getPoolSize clojure.lang.Agent/pooledExecutor)
20:11	clojurebot	0
20:11	Chouser	,(.getPoolSize clojure.lang.Agent/soloExecutor)
20:11	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: clojure.lang.Agent
20:13	Chouser	,(send (agent 1) inc)
20:13	clojurebot	#<Agent clojure.lang.Agent@1e881b6>
20:13	Chouser	,(.getPoolSize clojure.lang.Agent/pooledExecutor)
20:13	clojurebot	1
20:13	Chouser	so that's the 'send' thread pool
20:13	Chouser	,(send (agent 1) inc)
20:13	clojurebot	#<Agent clojure.lang.Agent@94310b>
20:13	Chouser	,(.getPoolSize clojure.lang.Agent/pooledExecutor)
20:13	clojurebot	2
20:14	Chouser	,(dotimes [_ 100] (send (agent 1) #(do (Thread/sleep 1000)))
20:14	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
20:14	Chouser	,(dotimes [_ 100] (send (agent 1) #(do (Thread/sleep 1000))))
20:14	clojurebot	nil
20:14	Chouser	,(.getPoolSize clojure.lang.Agent/pooledExecutor)
20:14	clojurebot	3
20:14	Chouser	capped out at 3
20:15	Chouser	looks like the send-off pool is no longer public, so I can't see its thread count anymore
20:24	Chouser	ok, I coulda sworn there was a verion of Clojure where I could get at both pools. But i can't find it now.
20:30	erohtar	wow - i didnt even know about clojurebot
20:30	erohtar	amazing
20:31	erohtar	chouser: why was the threadpool capped at 3?
20:42	Chouser	Apparently clojurebot's running on a single-CPU machine. the 'send' pool uses CPU count plus 2.
20:43	hiredman	yep
20:45	danlarkin	leaking implementation details!!!111oneonewon
20:48	RSchulz	Hey, danlarkin! I'm not gone, just otherwise occupied. I upgraded my primary development system to openSUSE 11.1, and there were... complications.
20:48	RSchulz	All is well, now, though.
20:48	RSchulz	345 unread messages in the Clojure list!
20:48	hiredman	heh
20:49	RSchulz	What have I missed??
20:49	danlarkin	:)
20:49	hiredman	the internet is over
20:49	hiredman	clojure won
20:49	danlarkin	glad to see you're still alive
20:49	RSchulz	The tubes are terminally clogged?
20:49	RSchulz	(Couldn't think of a good word beginning with 't')
20:50	durka	no, it's not that
20:50	durka	they caught tuberculosis
20:50	RSchulz	Ah. Good one!
20:50	durka	this is unrelated to last year's bout of tubercuilosis
20:51	RSchulz	Anyway, almost 100% of my old stuff is restored and much is better than it was. Now I can run, among other things, VimClojure.
20:51	RSchulz	And the various Git programs. It seems inevitable...
20:55	durka	let's use reflection to break Agent's encapsulation
20:55	durka	,(.. (agent nil) getClass (getDeclaredField "soloExecutor") (get (agent nil)) getPoolSize)
20:55	clojurebot	2
20:55	durka	(send-off (agent 1) inc)
20:55	durka	,(send-off (agent 1) inc)
20:55	clojurebot	#<Agent clojure.lang.Agent@130671e>
20:55	durka	,(.. (agent nil) getClass (getDeclaredField "soloExecutor") (get (agent nil)) getPoolSize)
20:55	clojurebot	3
20:55	hiredman	I was poking around nautilus a few days ago, and last night when I turned on my laptop, all my *.clj files had the clojure icon
20:56	durka	really? what put it there?
20:56	RSchulz	hiredman: You use Windows?
20:56	hiredman	nope
20:57	durka	i don't think nautilus has been ported to windows yet
20:57	RSchulz	Which Nautilus are we talking about?
20:57	hiredman	I was messing with gnome's mimetype database trying to get the clojure icon has the icon for clojure files, but it did not seem to work
20:57	hiredman	but I guess it did
20:57	RSchulz	I think that's more likely the explanation.
20:58	hiredman	I poked a lot of places, so I am note sure what did it
20:58	RSchulz	And... What's with using Gnome? ... Real Programmers (TM) use KDE!
20:58	hiredman	RSchulz: I will refrain from bring a flame war into to #clojure (but KDE is junk, and I hate it)
20:58	hiredman	bringing
20:58	RSchulz	You're thinking of KDE 4.x
20:59	hiredman	KDE.
20:59	RSchulz	Control freaks prefer KDE 3.5.
20:59	hiredman	well, thats just like, your opinion man.
21:00	RSchulz	The only wrong opinion is "meh. don't care."
21:00	RSchulz	(I've known that type...)
21:02	RSchulz	Let's try another tack... Which distro do you use??
21:02	hiredman	I don't use linux
21:04	RSchulz	Eh? You use Gnome but not on a Linux or Windows?
21:05	RSchulz	OSX?
21:05	hiredman	fbsd
21:06	RSchulz	Ah. A real minority.
21:06	hiredman	not in ##freebsd
21:07	albino	heh
21:07	RSchulz	The long tail.
21:07	albino	we welcome all minorities, don't we?
21:08	RSchulz	One would hope.
21:10	albino	hiredman: what do you like about freebsd? If you don't mind me being curious
21:10	hiredman	it is very together
21:11	RSchulz	What's the latest FreeBSD version?
21:11	hiredman	uh, the latest release was 7 something
21:11	hiredman	7.1
21:11	albino	I need to try it out sometime
21:11	albino	my only expereince with it was when someone else installed it and I was floored that tab completion wasn't there by default
21:12	hiredman	someone recommended it to me, about ten years ago, I tried it, and have not switched back
21:12	hiredman	well, I also use zsh not bash
21:12	RSchulz	You dare bash BASH?
21:13	albino	but zsh has tab completion by default, doesn't it?
21:13	hiredman	yes
21:13	RSchulz	You are quite the heretic!
21:13	RSchulz	Commendible!
21:13	albino	all the real smarties use zsh
21:13	RSchulz	But where do you you go from zsh? There aren't any more letters...
21:13	hiredman	freebsd 's /bin/sh is not bash and nothing like bash or zsh, if you want those with those features you can install them
21:14	RSchulz	Ooh. Zsh has a new-user configurator / wizard!
21:15	RSchulz	(I have so run it before)
21:15	albino	hiredman: so do you hack for a living?
21:16	hiredman	no, actaully
21:16	RSchulz	"Will hack for food."
21:16	Nafai	I used to run zsh
21:16	Nafai	But I never really used the specific features of it
21:16	RSchulz	hiredman is a Software Engineer. No hacking allowed.
21:16	Nafai	And when I installed my OS on a new machine, I never got around to installing zsh, so I just use bash
21:17	hiredman	I am the junior estimator at a commercial painting company
21:18	RSchulz	Well, that doesn't admit much in the way of bon mots...
21:19	albino	hiredman: sounds kind of interesting
21:20	hiredman	nah, just stare at plans all day
21:21	RSchulz	Lots of Excel, I suppose.
21:21	hiredman	Yes.
21:21	albino	hiredman: well it's kind of interesting that you hack on clojure stuff on the side, I would expect most people here aren't in painting businesses
21:21	RSchulz	Spreadsheets are pretty cool. A Clojure-oriented spreadsheet could be interesting.
21:22	RSchulz	Hmmm. I mowed lawns, painted houses, shovelled snow and fried donuts when I was young.
21:41	drewolson	how can i get access to command line arguments?
21:42	Chouser	command-line-args
21:42	Chouser	,command-line-args
21:42	Chouser	,(prn command-line-args)
21:42	drewolson	thanks :)
21:42	clojurebot	nil
21:42	Chouser	heh, sure.
21:43	drewolson	i've been messing with a toy program to create fractals with clojure...but i can't seem to find a java turtle graphics lib that _works_
21:43	Chouser	I wrote a toy program to draw fractals in clojure.
21:44	drewolson	damn you for beating me to it :)
21:44	drewolson	do you have the source somewhere?
21:44	Chouser	hm, I know I posted an older version.
21:45	Chouser	http://blog.n01se.net/?p=35
21:47	drewolson	that looks cool
21:47	Chouser	I've got a more flexible version somewhere...
21:48	Chouser	:-) thanks. It proved more difficult for me than I expected.
21:48	drewolson	http://github.com/drewolson/dragon/tree/master
21:48	drewolson	this is my feeble attempt so far
21:48	drewolson	trying to draw the dragon fractal
21:48	drewolson	i swear it's right, but the turtle graphics programing isn't working as expected
21:50	rhickey	Many patches applied - thanks all! http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/list
21:53	Chouser	drewolson: ah, here's a commented more fleixble version: http://gist.github.com/44584
21:53	Chouser	that one is an applet
21:53	drewolson	ah, thanks
21:54	Chouser	page with embedded applet: http://chouser.n01se.net/misc/tree.html
21:54	Chouser	durka: it does not :-)
21:55	Chouser	durka: but the last version I asked you to try was, I thought, compiled using java 1.5, and I now think it wasn't.
21:57	drewolson	i think it's probably because i'm still getting used to it, but it takes me much longer to read clojure code than, say ruby. it feels much more "dense"...not it a bad way. just lots of info per line
21:57	Chouser	it is definitely more dense
21:58	Chouser	I've heard different people specifically call that out as bad or good.
21:58	drewolson	it can't decide if that's a good thing
21:58	drewolson	i find myself thinking that my clojure code is "clever" in a somewhat bad way
21:58	drewolson	terse but very dense
21:58	drewolson	i suppose like anything else it gets better with practice
21:59	Chouser	I guess I come down on the side of it being good. Why would I want to spend more space, more lines, more words, saying the same thing?
21:59	Chouser	But yes, it takes practice and especially at first a certain amount of persistence to dig in.
22:00	drewolson	specifically concurrency has been a hurdle for me. never really touched it before.
22:00	Chouser	One "trick" I tend to forget and have to rediscover occasionally is that if a block I'm reading is just too impenetrable, to try reading it from the inside out.
22:00	drewolson	yes, totally agree
22:01	Chouser	I guess this is especially for the more deeply nested structures.
22:02	Chouser	oh, you're trying to read the Tree code, aren't you. I'm afraid there's a couple things in there that kinda obfuscate what's going on.
22:02	Chouser	that 'branch' macro is -- substantial.
22:03	drewolson	It's interesting though, worth looking at. I'm going to have to scurry off and figure out what's going on with the agents
22:04	drewolson	you're mapping across a range of ints to start the agent pool, right?
22:05	Chouser	yes, just to create a batch of agents
22:05	drewolson	and then you create another agent to monitor them
22:05	drewolson	?
22:06	Chouser	each agent just computes a random point in fractal, draws it, and then loops around to do it again. The agents are completely independent of each other.
22:06	Chouser	yes, that's just for debugging.
22:06	drewolson	i see
22:06	Chouser	if an agent's action function throws an exception, the agent quits working but you may never know about it.
22:06	drewolson	ah, i see
22:07	Chouser	so I made a monitor agent to occasionally check all the other agents for any errors and print them to stdout
22:07	Chouser	of course if the monitor agent has an error....
22:08	drewolson	metamonitoring? heh
22:08	Chouser	but it was the code for the other agents I was changing a lot, experimenting with different shapes and such, so that's where errors were likely to occur.
22:12	drewolson	i took a quick look at the agents section on clojure.org, but i'm not groking the reduce in run
22:14	Chouser	sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
22:16	drewolson	there's some example code on clojure.org under the agents section. in the run function, there is a reduce function called to build the ring of agents. i can't quite parse it.
22:16	Chouser	ah, yeah. talk about dense...
22:18	Chouser	ok, reduce there has 3 args, a fn, an initial value, and a seq
22:18	drewolson	sure
22:19	drewolson	oh i get it
22:19	drewolson	:)
22:19	drewolson	next is the last agent
22:19	Chouser	so the first time the fn is called, it's 'next' is the :report-queue agent and it's 'i' is 0
22:19	drewolson	which becomes part of the state of the current agent
22:19	drewolson	which is returned
22:19	drewolson	and then used for the next agent
22:19	drewolson	and so on
22:19	drewolson	yes?
22:19	Chouser	well, if you get it, then can I stop trying? :-)
22:19	drewolson	haha
22:20	drewolson	i'm still slightly confused how the range is involved
22:20	drewolson	is that just providing something to iterate over?
22:20	Chouser	yes, the value of 'i' isn't used
22:20	drewolson	gotcha
22:20	drewolson	is there an idiom in clojure to use, say _ when a param will not be used?
22:20	Chouser	yes
22:20	drewolson	gotcha
22:21	Chouser	there, fixed.
22:22	drewolson	cool :)
22:23	Chouser	surely Halloway's examples are easier to follow?
22:23	drewolson	well, they are more gradual
22:23	drewolson	however i love to ponder these more real examples
22:24	drewolson	when you finally get them it's quite gratifying
22:24	Chouser	ah, true.
22:27	freddy_d	hi all
22:27	Chouser	hello
22:27	freddy_d	anyone using Clojure in the workplace?
22:28	Chouser	there was a interesting post to the group recently about a Clojure deployment.
22:28	drewr	freddy_d: Almost every day.
22:29	freddy_d	drewr: interesting. what kind of applications?
22:29	drewolson	drewr: lucky. and nice name.
22:29	drewr	drewolson: :-)
22:30	drewr	freddy_d: Mostly back-end, data-mining types of things.
22:30	freddy_d	drewr: cool.
22:31	drewolson	Chouser: in the given agent example, how can we bet sure that all messages have reached the final agent. we aren't blocking anywhere waiting for them, correct?
22:33	drewolson	ah, nvm. java.util.concurrent.SynchronousQueue is a blocking queue
22:33	drewolson	tricky, very tricky
22:33	Chouser	good eye -- I hadn't spotted that yet.
22:34	drewolson	ok, this all makes sense now. very interesting example.
22:40	drewolson	thanks for the help, night all
23:17	danlarkin	JEEEEEZ it's cold outside
23:32	arohner	danlarkin: I know! It's like 50 outside!
23:32	arohner	:-p
23:35	pjb3	I was just looking through some of the code in contrib/sql and I
23:35	pjb3	have a question
23:36	pjb3	in do-commans
23:36	pjb3	do-commands
23:36	pjb3	it has this: (with-open [stmt (.createStatement (connection))]
23:36	pjb3	that means that connection must be a function that is being called, right?
23:36	pjb3	where does connection come from?
23:37	pjb3	ah, internal
23:37	pjb3	nevermind, didn't see that
23:39	pjb3	I suppose this was written before the introduction of defn- into the language?