#clojure – 2009-01-06

2009-01-06

00:40	zakwilson	Slime is evaluating expressions from a file (via C-x C-e and C-c C-c) in the user namespace instead of the file's namespace. I've eval'd the ns form and set the ns in the repl. Am I missing something obvious?
00:43	dhaya	zakwilson: are you sure it is evaluating in the user namespace? try evaluating ns and see what that returns.
00:44	zakwilson	I did. It returns #<Namespace user>
00:47	zakwilson	dhaya: it only returns the correct ns in the repl.
00:50	dhaya	strange. i don't seem to have that problem.
00:54	zakwilson	And now that I've updaded everything to the bleeding edge, the repl doesn't come up properly - just the inferior-lisp buffer.
00:54	dhaya	any error messages?
00:56	zakwilson	Yes: Exception in thread "Call-on-write Stream" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: sleep for class java.lang.Class
00:56	dhaya	did you update swank clojure? IIRC that was fixed a while back.
00:56	zakwilson	Though I seem to remember seeing an exception when Slime started before, as well as some discussion to the effect that it isn't a problem.
00:57	zakwilson	Yes. I just now updated it - it didn't do that until I did.
01:05	dhaya	FWIW, I am on the bleeding edge now and I don't have any trouble starting slime/swank.
01:07	zakwilson	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: clojure (swank.clj:11)
01:08	zakwilson	Though I don't see where it's getting that, looking at the file.
01:08	danlarkin	yeah you're probably pulling in an old swank-clojure, since clojure hasn't been a namespace for a while
01:13	zakwilson	danlarkin: It looks like it might be pointing to an old file I forgot was there. Working on it.
01:17	zakwilson	I've eliminated any references to old files that don't work anymore, but I'm still not getting a repl.
01:17	zakwilson	No more exceptions though.
01:18	danlarkin	I'm also on bleeding edge and everything is working okay for me
01:18	danlarkin	but now I'm off to bed
01:18	danlarkin	goodnight all
01:28	durka	i'm working on a program to help with missing imports
01:28	durka	=> (lookup "Ref")
01:28	durka	["java.sql.Ref" "sun.misc.Ref" "com.sun.xml.internal.bind.v2.model.core.Ref" "com.sun.xml.internal.bind.v2.runtime.reflect.opt.Ref" "com.sun.xml.internal.xsom.impl.Ref" "clojure.lang.Ref"]
01:28	durka	this only works after a time-consuming scan of the classpath
02:49	fffej	if I apply map to a hash-map, what should be the structure I return so as to keep the returned collection working with assoc / get etc?
02:53	cmvkk	map just returns a list i guess
02:54	fffej	is there a way I can return that list that is easily converted back into a hash-map?
02:54	cmvkk	yeah, if you use pairs in vectors
02:54	cmvkk	(into {} '([:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3])) will return a map as you expect
02:55	fffej	sweet - pairs in vectors was the magic I was looking for, thanks!
03:12	fmeza	quit
03:12	fmeza	exit
03:58	Lau_of_DK	Ola 'el Kota'
03:59	kotarak	Hola, se�or.
05:05	AWizzArd	Moin
05:07	AWizzArd	How can I make POST requests in Clojure?
05:12	kotarak	AWizzArd: HttpURLConnection has a setRequestMethod....
05:17	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: Theres a http-client in Contrib which handles that stuff very nicely
05:20	AWizzArd	yes, and I wanted to use this http-client in the past for get requests and got the suggestion to better use duck-streams reader.
05:20	AWizzArd	And is there already something for xml-rpc in Clojure?
05:21	Lau_of_DK	Check out lazy-xml in contrib :)
05:21	Lau_of_DK	That might be it
05:46	knapr	how do I break a line in a string without adding a \n or \r ?
05:52	AWizzArd	knapr: inside the quotes press enter
05:53	AWizzArd	Lau_of_DK: I think lazy-xml is more for parsing than doing xml-rpc requests via http post.
07:20	AWizzArd	If I have a directory with 10 .jar files, is there then a way to add them all to the classpath by specifying a placeholder or something like that? "classpath=/home/user/lib/*"
07:21	Lau_of_DK	java -cp .
07:21	Lau_of_DK	will add all files in current directory to cp
07:26	AWizzArd	oki, I will try the dot as placeholder instead of the star for the windows env var
07:32	StartsWithK	AWizzArd: There is no wildcard substitution for -cp
07:32	StartsWithK	what you can do is write small shell script, like: CP=lib/* java -cp $CP ...
07:33	StartsWithK	and bash will expand lib/* for you
07:33	Lau_of_DK	StartsWithK: I heard people say that, but wildcards work fine here
07:33	StartsWithK	Lau_of_DK: Is that only a windows thing then?
07:34	Lau_of_DK	Might be, Im on Linux
07:34	StartsWithK	java -cp lib/* clojure.lang.Repl
07:34	AWizzArd	StartsWithK: I want to put the 10-20 .jars into the environment variable in Windows.
07:35	StartsWithK	this will fail
07:35	StartsWithK	java -cp "lib/*" clojure.lang.Repl
07:35	StartsWithK	this will work
07:35	StartsWithK	form prompt
07:35	StartsWithK	from*
07:35	StartsWithK	AWizzArd: maybe this quoted form will work? "lib/*"
07:36	AWizzArd	I will try some variations
07:36	Lau_of_DK	ah thats right K, its got to be quoted
07:36	StartsWithK	it works for me on linux
07:36	Lau_of_DK	but I think everything needs to be quoted in Windows anyway
07:36	Lau_of_DK	/clojure$ java -cp "./*" clojure.lang.Repl
07:36	Lau_of_DK	Clojure
07:36	Lau_of_DK	user=> (+ 2 2)
07:36	Lau_of_DK	4
07:36	Lau_of_DK
07:38	StartsWithK	i always used small launcher script so didn't even notice this quoted form
07:38	StartsWithK	can it be used like "lib/*/.jar"?
07:48	knapr	can I say "select avg(cast(grade as double)) from reviews for customerid in customers"?
07:48	knapr	sql that is
07:48	knapr	something like that
07:48	knapr	I have a bunch fo moviereviews and want to find the highest average reviewers and lowest
07:48	knapr	I have 3 tables, customers(:customerid), reviews(:customerid, :grade, :review-date, :movieid) and movies(:title, :releasedate, :movieid)
07:52	knapr	group by?
07:57	knapr	how do I set primary key with contrib/sql?
08:01	AWizzArd	How do you want to "set" a primary key?
08:01	AWizzArd	When you insert you just specify a value...
08:02	AWizzArd	Or in the case of mysqls auto-increment even that is not needed.
08:08	knapr	(query "select avg(cast(reviews.grade as double)), customers.customerid
08:08	knapr	from reviews join customers on reviews.customerid = customers.customerid
08:08	knapr	group by customerid")
08:08	knapr	java.sql.SQLSyntaxErrorException: Column name 'CUSTOMERID' is in more than one table in the FROM list. (db.clj:0)
08:08	knapr	user=>
08:08	knapr	uh?
08:10	StartsWithK	group by reviews.customerid
08:12	knapr	ah
08:29	knapr	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98246/
08:30	knapr	^^ anyone can help me with tis fairly complex sql-statement
08:30	knapr	code and sql error ^^
08:31	Lau_of_DK	:) Well, I could, if you used a proper lib :)
08:34	knapr	ok
08:34	knapr	im pulling uit
08:38	cgrand	knapr, try replacing customers.customerid by reviews.customerid
08:38	Lau_of_DK	Ok, review the demos, ask me or kota tonight if you need help, im at work, he's offline I believe. the run macro will feed you a resultset-seq, you can cast values on their way out of that
08:38	knapr	yeah wait
08:39	knapr	why am i even joining lol?
08:40	knapr	(query "select avg(cast(grade as double)), customerid
08:40	knapr	from reviews group by customerid")
08:40	knapr	but does this calc the average grade for all customers?
08:45	knapr	is defn like pythons _thisisprivate_ ?
08:46	knapr	is defn- like pythons _thisisprivate_ ?
08:46	knapr	not enforced privacy, just "dont touch this t is internal k thanks"
08:50	knapr	how do I require clojure-ql?
08:51	lisppaste8	gnuvince pasted "defn-" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73180
08:51	gnuvince_	knapr: see this link
08:54	knapr	thanks
08:57	knapr	where is condp Lau?
08:58	knapr	is condp in a new clojure-version? im using december
09:03	Chousuke	knapr: I think condp is SVN-only right now.
09:05	Lau_of_DK	knapr: Its in the latest SVN, you must update
09:08	knapr	what does condp do?
09:08	Lau_of_DK	Its a clever way of nesting cond's
09:08	Lau_of_DK	(doc condp)
09:08	clojurebot	No entiendo
09:08	Lau_of_DK	its similar to a switch statement
09:10	knapr	ah
09:10	Chousuke	wow, condp is pretty complex.
09:10	Chousuke	:>> seems pretty useful though
09:52	knapr	anyone doing the netflix prize?
09:55	gnuvince_	When I use SLIME at work (no GUI), I can start slime just fine, but I just get the inferior lisp buffer, not the clojure repl one where typing a function name displays the arguments in the mini buffer. Anyone had this problem before?
09:56	gnuvince_	The config file is the same than the one at home and so are the versions of Clojure, slime and swank-clojure.
09:58	gnuvince_	Ah, I caught billc's message about breaking changes
09:58	Lau_of_DK	:)
10:00	gnuvince_	That's sad :(
10:01	Chousuke	sad?
10:01	gnuvince_	Yeah
10:02	Chousuke	in the new slime you just need to enable the fancy repl manually
10:02	Chousuke	it's pretty easy.
10:04	gnuvince_	How is that done?
10:04	gnuvince_	(slime-setup '(fancy-repl)?
10:05	Chousuke	http://github.com/Chousuke/dotfiles/tree/master/Aquamacs-customizations.el#L59
10:06	knapr	when using drop-table from contrib.sql doesnt that delete the table forever?
10:06	Chousuke	yes.
10:06	Chousuke	well, drop table usually dpes that :P
10:06	Chousuke	does*
10:07	gnuvince_	great
10:07	gnuvince_	thanks
10:07	gnuvince_	Chousuke++
10:11	gnuvince_	hmmm
10:11	gnuvince_	it worked before I restarted Emacs...
10:13	Chouser	I enjoy having an environment that doesn't break when I upgrade things.
10:14	Chousuke	gnuvince_: is your clojure-swank also recent? :/
10:15	gnuvince_	yes
10:15	gnuvince_	It's a git submodule
10:15	gnuvince_	I seem to have it...
10:15	Chousuke	submodules are one feature of git I have no clue about :/
10:15	gnuvince_	I'm clueless about most git features
10:16	gnuvince_	I dislike it
10:16	Chousuke	I would probably like most of the DVCS systems.
10:17	Chousuke	but I'm familiar with git so obviously I like it the best.
10:17	gnuvince_	argh...
10:17	gnuvince_	stupid submodules...
10:17	gnuvince_	they're the cause of my problem
10:18	Chousuke	one thing is certain though. I will never again use SVN for any of my projects :P
10:18	Chousuke	it's too... restrictive.
10:19	gnuvince_	I like Mercurial myself. It makes a whole lot of sense, but it seems that git is poised to become the de facto DVCS for open source projects, so I make an effort to use and learn it.
10:19	Chousuke	mercurial and git are probably not too different.
10:20	Chousuke	I wonder if there's a hg equivalent to the "git magic" tutorial :/
10:21	gnuvince_	Dunno what that is.
10:21	gnuvince_	But Hg feels less disparate than git
10:23	Chousuke	git magic is this: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~blynn/gitmagic/
10:23	Chousuke	clojurebot: git?
10:23	clojurebot	git is http://www.github.com
10:23	Chousuke	hm
10:27	gnuvince_	Fuck this sucks...
10:27	gnuvince_	I do git submodule update and slime breaks
10:54	triddell	In case anyone is interested, I just posted (to the google group) a pretty print function for xml/xhtml which uses the javax.xml classes in the JDK.
11:17	Chouser	pretty print is marked as done on the clojure todo, but I'm not aware of any complete (non-xml) pretty printer. Did I miss it somewhere?
11:27	danlarkin	news to me
11:36	triddell	Chouser: so was there a clojure-based pretty print for xml that I missed before writing this function? I asked on here and searched yesterday but didn't find one.
11:40	Chouser	triddell: not really. clojure.xml/emit adds newlines, but doesn't indent
11:44	triddell	Chouser: ok, well the function I wrote is a big hammer for this problem but solved the issue for me for now
11:44	Chouser	sure, thanks for sharing it.
11:45	AWizzArd	Does anyone here use the xml-rpc lib from http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/ from time to time? I am having a problem when I say (def client (XmlRpcClient.))
11:46	AWizzArd	This throws a NoClassDefFound exception for org.apache.xmlrpc.common.TypeFactoryImpl.
11:46	rhickey	Chouser: pprint is done as far as the todo list - moved to issues - http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=16
11:46	rhickey	todo list is soon to be no more
11:46	AWizzArd	But when I type org.apache.xmlrpc.common.TypeFactoryImpl into the repl it returns the class. So, the class is in the classpath.
11:47	Chouser	rhickey: ah! very good.
11:53	triddell	AWizzArd: I haven't seen any issues with importing classes and name resolution
11:57	AWizzArd	I also didn't have this problem before.
12:54	sulo_	hi folks... can anyone tell me.. is there a clojure tutorial or something like that around? on the webpage i couldn't find anything
13:00	vogelrn	tutorial as in how to use it or how to install it?
13:00	meredydd	What happened to clojure.contrib.def? Specifically, how do I get 'defvar- back, or something like it?
13:01	technomancy	sulo_: the book is definitely the best resource for that. there's not anything else that's well-organized and canonical.
13:01	technomancy	although you could try the wikibook
13:01	technomancy	clojurebot: wikibook?
13:01	clojurebot	I don't understand.
13:01	danlarkin	clojurebot: wiki
13:01	clojurebot	wiki is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming
13:10	danlarkin	sulo_: I will still recommend the videos at http://clojure.blip.tv
13:14	zargon_	how can I (take ) n values from a seq and later take another n values from the now "shortened" seq?
13:14	technomancy	the videos are great for getting excited. not sure if they're so good for coding though.
13:16	danlarkin	(doc drop)
13:16	clojurebot	Returns a lazy seq of all but the first n items in coll.; arglists ([n coll])
13:16	danlarkin	zargon_: ^
13:16	hoeck	zargon_: maybe look at split-at
13:16	hoeck	too
13:16	danlarkin	(doc partition)
13:16	clojurebot	Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap.; arglists ([n coll] [n step coll])
13:16	Chousuke	or partition
13:16	Chousuke	right
13:17	zargon_	aha, ok
13:20	zargon_	I guess (drop n) on a seq is O(n), right? So dropping in a loop is a bad idea ...
13:21	danlarkin	if you tell us what you're trying to achieve perhaps we can help suggest a good way to accomplish it
13:22	zargon_	I just wondered how to consecutively take n values from a seq without too much of a performance hit, but i think (partition ) would be the solution
13:23	danlarkin	just be careful of the following:
13:23	danlarkin	(take 2 [1 2 3 4 5])
13:23	danlarkin	,(take 2 [1 2 3 4 5])
13:23	clojurebot	(1 2)
13:23	danlarkin	err
13:23	danlarkin	well my point is that 5 is left dangling
13:24	zargon_	?
13:24	danlarkin	,(partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5])
13:24	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4))
13:24	danlarkin	sorry, that is what I meant to write
13:24	zargon_	ok i see
13:37	knapr	how can I set primary key and foreign key in contrib.sql?
13:37	knapr	(defn create-reviews-table [] (sql/create-table :reviews [:customerid :int]
13:37	Lau_of_DK	knapr: May I recommend to you, the Google Group, for those question that do not get answered here, even after posting them 5+ times
13:37	knapr	[:foreignkey =?
14:03	duck1123	Lau_of_DK: would you recommend ClojureQL for use yet, or is it still unstable?
14:04	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: It depends on the scope I'd say. The function that are currently implemented, are all stable as far as we have been able to test, but admittedly, we have not tested it sufficiently
14:04	Lau_of_DK	For common use (select, insert, update) I wouldnt hestitate to use it myself
14:07	duck1123	I was looking at it last night when I was getting frustrated at using format to create queries. It still needs a bit more documentation. I would have to play with it a bit before trying to replace c.contrib.sql
14:08	Lau_of_DK	Point taken, we do need to invest some time documentating the features, however if you review the demo files included in the repo, you should be able to catch on pretty quickly
14:08	Lau_of_DK	And if you have questions, shoot
14:10	duck1123	quick question, do the results come back as a struct or a hash-map, or other?
14:11	Lau_of_DK	Currently all queries return as resultset-seq's, which are available while the connection is open only, they are sort of lazy
14:12	Lau_of_DK	@ duck1123
14:12	technomancy	is the SQL lib in contrib lazy?
14:12	Lau_of_DK	dunno
14:12	Lau_of_DK	I think so
14:13	technomancy	so the main advantage is decent syntax rather than constructing SQL strings
14:14	Lau_of_DK	technomancy: Its more than just syntax, the queries themselves become qualitifed for standard clojure set operations like union, intersect, concat and so on, so you can perform clojure-code on them
14:14	duck1123	Lau_of_DK: contrib requires the connection to be open as well, so that's no big deal
14:14	technomancy	cool
14:15	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: I didnt say it was, you just asked how the results were returned
14:16	duck1123	I ran into an issue last night when trying to dissoc the results from a contrib.sql query, so I was wondering if the same would apply with clojureql
14:17	kotarak	duck1123: what do you mean by dissoc?
14:17	Chouser	if each result row is a structmap, you can't dissoc any basis key
14:18	Chouser	you can set the value to nil, but not dissoc
14:18	duck1123	I was trying to remove a key-val from the results of a query, but since it's a struct, you can't dissoc the base keys
14:18	Chouser	you could copy into a new map, though, and dissoc from that.
14:18	kotarak	Ah. Ok. For now we also use struct-maps.
14:18	Chouser	I think struct-maps are probably the right solution
14:19	duck1123	Chouser: I tried that, but I don't think I was getting the syntax right.
14:19	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: For what purpose did you want to filter data ?
14:19	Chouser	(dissoc (into {} result-row) :col-to-remove)
14:20	Chouser	seems like an odd use-case, those. I don't think I'd warp an API to support it any better than that.
14:20	duck1123	Chouser: thanks. That was not what I was trying. Much better
14:20	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: If there are features you want in result-handling, now's the time to make your case
14:21	duck1123	Lau_of_DK: I am joining tables, and I was trying to convert the last column into a vector of maps of the values of the second table
14:22	duck1123	There's probably a much better sollution, but it was late when I was working on this
14:25	Lau_of_DK	duck1123: Yea there might be a better way to construct that query, but I'll think it over. Im not bent on the resultset-seq solution, but for what we support now it makes a very good fit
14:25	duck1123	I'm trying to produce something like: {:id 1, :name "duck1123", :identities [{:url "http://duck1123.myopenid.com/", :primary false}, {:url "http://kronkltd.net/", :primary true}]}
14:25	whidden	Are there any examples of clojure.contrib.Monad laying around? If so a gentle pointer to their locaction would be nice.
14:26	Chouser	whidden: did you search the google group?
14:27	whidden	nope.. not yet... just saw the new checkins, did a google search on Monad, and got a bucket full of Haskel.
14:27	Chouser	heh
14:27	whidden	i don't grok haskel, not sure if this is good or bad at the moment.
14:27	kotarak	duck1123: (let-query [result1 (query ...) result2 (query ...)] (do-something-arbitrary with result1 and result2) ; should return a seq)
14:28	Chouser	there are a couple threads on monads in the group. I'm not sure, but I think the contrib is based on one of those, and there may be examples in the discussion.
14:28	kotarak	duck1123: The return value of let-query is again a query, which can be passed to run or whatever.
14:29	duck1123	kotarak: thanks. I think I'll play with clojureql when I get home tonight
14:29	kotarak	duck1123: be warned! docs? nope stable? nope
14:30	duck1123	Then it'll fit in nicely with the rest of my site. :)
14:30	kotarak	hehe :)
14:31	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: Why do you say not stable?
14:32	duck1123	Lau_of_DK: so I wouldn't be disappointed if I find a problem
14:32	kotarak	well. we are not a rekease,yet. So maybe something may change in the interface. Or maybe not. But one should not rely on it for now.
14:32	Lau_of_DK	You shouldnt be, you should report the bug. But I just havent come across anything that was buggy yet in the current form
14:32	Lau_of_DK	Though, that form may change in the next couple of hours :)
14:33	kotarak	There are specialities how to use it, which are not documented, yet.
14:38	Chousuke	it's kind of confusing that even though rng is a function, in the domonad syntax in one of your examples, there are no parens around rng, so it looks like you're simply taking its value :/
14:43	whidden	ok back from reading about monads in google groups.. not a lot, saw the parser, will play with that tonight and see how my groking goes. Thanks for the pointer.
14:46	Chousuke	kotarak: what's the status of your parser btw?
14:47	Chousuke	kotarak: your page on it is outdated at least. In your example, you have a #(.isLetter Character %) which is no longer valid :)
14:47	kotarak	Chousuke: Currently fiddling around with my multimethod monads. I spent some time on the monad transformer part, but I can't say, that I understand this.
14:47	kotarak	Chousuke: yes it's very outdaten.
14:48	kotarak	Chousuke: Have to bring it up-to-date, but Lau interrupted me with ClojureQL. ;)
14:52	danlarkin	oh speaking of parser
14:53	danlarkin	http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/tree/master
14:54	kotarak	danlarkin: yeah. I'm still unsure on how to represent the parser result.
14:54	hiredman	oooo
14:56	danlarkin	it's not a parser combinator, but it's definitely interesting work
14:57	kotarak	danlarkin: yeah, definitively. There so much going on around Clojure at the moment! :) Nice pointer. :D
14:57	duck1123	see, this is why we need an EBNF for Clojure. We'll be able to parse Clojure in Clojure. :)
14:58	danlarkin	duck1123: I see what you did there...
14:59	gnuvince_	Is it not possible to give meta data to a function? (def y (with-meta (fn [] :y) {:foo :bar}))
14:59	gnuvince_	?
15:00	kotarak	No.
15:00	Lau_of_DK	kotarak: sure? I think something changed in that regard in one of the recent revisions
15:00	gnuvince_	Is there a way to carry around additional information about a function then?
15:01	kotarak	Namespaces have know meta-data.
15:01	kotarak	s/know/now/
15:03	gnuvince_	Ok
15:03	gnuvince_	Weird thing
15:03	gnuvince_	This works: (defn #^{:foo :bar} y [] :y)
15:03	mfredrickson	Lau_of_DK: is this what you want?
15:03	mfredrickson	http://gist.github.com/43965
15:03	kotarak	gnuvince_: that attaches the metadata to y, the symbol.
15:03	Chousuke	gnuvince_: that attaches the metadata into the var.
15:04	Chousuke	hm? was it the symbol?
15:04	kotarak	#^ works on follows, that is the symbol y. From there it's probably transferred to the Var by def.
15:05	Chousuke	nope, you need to do (meta #'y)
15:05	gnuvince_	This doesn't work however: (defmacro x [] (let [name 'y] `(defn #^{:foo :bar} ~name [] :y)))
15:06	Lau_of_DK	mfredrickson: gnuvince_ wants :)
15:06	kotarak	Chousuke: it is attached to the Var, but #^ is a reader macro. At that moment there is no Var. So it is attached to the Symbol y. From there it's transferred to the meta-data of the Var.
15:07	mfredrickson	i must admit I still don't have a great understanding of the Var vs. Symbol difference in clj
15:07	mfredrickson	vs. keywords
15:07	Chousuke	vars hold values
15:07	kotarak	gnuvince_: (defmacro x [] (let [name 'y] `(defn ~(with-meta name {:foo :bar}) [] :y)))
15:08	technomancy	a symbol is a name; nothing more
15:08	technomancy	all code is made up of symbols
15:08	Chousuke	mfredrickson: keywords are symbols that resolve to themselves
15:08	Chousuke	mfredrickson: symbols normally resolve to vars.
15:08	technomancy	Chousuke: keywords are mostly like in CL right? except for additionally being functions?
15:09	technomancy	and the colon isn't used to mean "no package"
15:09	Chousuke	I'm not sure what they are like in CL
15:09	Chousuke	well, single-colon keywords have no namespace .)
15:09	mfredrickson	,(macroexpand-1 #'foo)
15:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: foo in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:09	kotarak	:foo/bar
15:10	Chousuke	except wehn like that yeah
15:10	technomancy	in CL you use the notation package-name:symbol to refer to a symbol in a different package in a way that evals to itself. leaving out package-name becomes just :symbol, which IIRC is like being in a null package
15:10	mfredrickson	,(macroexpand-1#'+)
15:10	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: macroexpand-1# in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
15:10	mfredrickson	,(macroexpand-1 #'+)
15:10	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
15:10	Chousuke	mfredrickson: I don't think macroexpand works with reader macros.
15:11	Chousuke	,(macroexpand-1 '#'+)
15:11	clojurebot	(var +)
15:11	mfredrickson	Chousuke: i think you are correct
15:11	Chousuke	ah, they do.
15:11	Chousuke	:P
15:12	mfredrickson	interesting
15:12	mfredrickson	,(meta (var +))
15:12	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), :file "core.clj", :doc "Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0.", :line 546, :inline #<core$fn__2956 clojure.core$fn__2956@1e21f52>, :inline-arities #{2}}
15:13	knapr	anyone good with statistics and math? i need to calculate rmse(root mean square error). but i dont get form wikipedia exactly how i do it. lets say a simple example is. correct is 4 3 3 and I guess 4 2 3, what would the rmse be then? sq(sqrt((4-4)+(3-2)+(3-3)) / 3) ?
15:13	knapr	and is the closer to 1 the better=?
15:18	mfredrickson	knapr: take the difference of all predictions with observed. square them. sum them. take the square root
15:20	mfredrickson	oops: finally divide by the square root of the number of pairs
15:21	whidden	knapr: and the closer to zero better.
15:21	wlr	whidden, monads.clj in the Google Group's Files section is a monolithic file with examples included
15:22	whidden	that would mean your predictions and results matched perfectly.
15:22	whidden	wlr: thanks.. I'll look at that.
15:24	Chouser	(/ (apply + (map #(* % %) (map - obs prd))) (Math/sqrt (count obs)))
15:24	Chouser	based on mfredrickson's description
15:24	whidden	wlr: I did not realize there was a files section for groups.. Thanks for the pointer.
15:27	rhickey	Chouser: thanks for comments patch!
15:28	whidden	Chouser: wouldn't it be (Math/sqrt (/ (apply + (map #(* % %)(map - obs prd))) (count obs))?
15:28	mfredrickson	whidden: yes.
15:29	wlr	whidden, np
15:31	gnuvince_	I have another question about metadata (sorry)
15:32	gnuvince_	If I have this function:
15:32	gnuvince_	(defn #^{:foo :bar} f [] :f)
15:33	Lau_of_DK	gnuvince_: If we have to start appologizing for asking questions, I have a big backlog :(
15:33	Chouser	rhickey_: heh. sure.
15:33	gnuvince_	is it possible to "copy" the meta-data to another instance?
15:33	gnuvince_	For instance:
15:33	gnuvince_	(let [x f] (:foo (meta x))
15:34	Chouser	gnuvince_: the metadata from your defn is on the Var named f, not it's value (which is a fn)
15:34	kotarak	(defn f (meta #'g) [] :f) like that?
15:35	gnuvince_	Chouser: so if I pass f as a parameter to another function, I don't have access to the meta-data, right?
15:35	Chouser	gnuvince_: so the moment you say (let [x f] ...), the Var f gets dereferenced to its current value (the fn) which is then bound to the local x. There's no way to get to f's metadata from x.
15:35	Chouser	gnuvince_: right.
15:35	gnuvince_	meh
15:35	Chouser	you could choose to pass the Var
15:36	gnuvince_	That would be ugly for the user
15:36	gnuvince_	I'll have to think of something else.
15:37	Chouser	I do think it'd be nice to be able to put metadata on fns, but I think there's something about what they really are in the JVM that makes that a bit tricky to do.
15:43	gnuvince_	There we go
15:44	gnuvince_	I used a map instead. {:fn (fn [] ...), :the-meta-data-i-want [foo, bar]}
15:45	knapr	mfredrickson: [4 3 4] and [4 2 2] -> ((4-4)^2 + (3-2)^2 + (4-2)^2) / (sqrt 3) ?
15:45	knapr	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98364/
15:45	stuarthalloway	what should a function that alters multiple refs return?
15:46	stuarthalloway	there is something dissatisfying about returning the last modified thing, when conceptually everything happens at once
15:46	mfredrickson	knapr: see whidden's version -- take the sqrt of (/ (sum diff) (count diff))
15:46	stuarthalloway	but on the other hand it seems ridiculous to write extra code when nobody is expected to look at the return value
15:53	Chouser	stuarthalloway: this is a function with a dosync in it? Or one that is expected to be used in a dosync?
15:53	stuarthalloway	reset-game from snake
15:53	pao	is anyone using vim for clojure?
15:53	pao	is it viable?
15:53	stuarthalloway	it has a dosync in it
15:53	stuarthalloway	it updates two things
15:53	kotarak	pao: yep
15:54	stuarthalloway	and returns (coincidentally) the last thing listed
15:54	Chouser	pao: absolutely
15:54	pao	kotarak: thx
15:54	durka_	pao: yes
15:54	stuarthalloway	I find myself wanting to add a "nil" form at the end
15:54	durka	thanks largely to kotarak
15:54	stuarthalloway	vim is as viable for Clojure as for anything :-)
15:54	kotarak	pao: http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html
15:54	pao	what reading list would you suggest for a completely lisp ignorant (I'm familiar with python/haskell)
15:55	pao	kotarak: thanks
15:55	pao	stuarthalloway: vim rocks... :-)
15:55	stuarthalloway	pao: practical common lisp by Seibel
15:55	red_fish	pao: http://books.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
15:55	pao	stuarthalloway: I'm inclined to abandon a language if it's not "vim friendly" ;-)
15:55	knapr	oops: finally divide by the square root of the number of pairs
15:55	kotarak	+ stuarthalloway's blog about practical common lisp -> clojure
15:55	red_fish	i am reading it now
15:55	knapr	just so there is no misconception, ^^ that staement was wrong?
15:56	Chouser	stuarthalloway: I would leave it alone -- let dosync return what it does. I suppose you could wrap [] around the ref-set's, but it hardly seems worth it.
15:56	stuarthalloway	seibel book is all online: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
15:56	stuarthalloway	Chouser: my concern is leaking implementation detail
15:56	knapr	it is square root of the average?
15:56	stuarthalloway	or possibly having a consumer of the code, not looking at the source, think that the return value is meaningful
15:56	Chouser	stuarthalloway: oh, then maybe explicitly return nil?
15:56	stuarthalloway	right
15:56	Chouser	that's not too terrible
15:57	stuarthalloway	I hate the extra work
15:57	stuarthalloway	was thinking about writing a macro around dosync that returns nil
15:57	Chouser	there are a couple places in clojure code where you end up with a separate return value at the end of a 'do' block of some sort
15:57	Chouser	like agent action functions that are meant for side-effects and want to return their first arg unchanged.
15:58	pao	stuarthalloway: kotarak: thanks for the help
15:58	Chouser	pao: my only real lisp knowledge pre-clojure was from PG's "on lisp"
15:59	kotarak	pao: no problem
15:59	pao	Chouser: PG?
15:59	kotarak	Paul Graham
15:59	Chouser	http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html
15:59	pao	kotarak: ops... ashamed
16:00	stuarthalloway	pao: PG is terrific
16:00	stuarthalloway	but I think Seibel is better suited for hands-on tutorial
16:00	pao	stuarthalloway: is a good sense I suppose :-)
16:00	pao	*in
16:00	stuarthalloway	the real right answer is to read both of them
16:01	pao	stuarthalloway: PG + siebel, right?
16:01	stuarthalloway	pao: yes, plus Norvig, Dybvig, and Friedman/Felleisen :-)
16:02	pao	stuarthalloway: wack! :-)
16:03	pao	stuarthalloway: that doesn't sound like lisp in 24 h ;-)
16:03	stuarthalloway	Chouser: I posted the return value question on the mailing list
16:03	stuarthalloway	pao: http://norvig.com/21-days.html
16:03	kotarak	pao: though it's a bit old and for Scheme: "Teach yourself Scheme in Fixnum days" might also help
16:04	stuarthalloway	and while I am posting random "Norvig rocks" links: http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/making.html
16:06	lisppaste8	gnuvince pasted "lame quickcheck attempt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73202
16:07	pao	is it reasonable to use clojure for trying out material from siebel&PG or is better to stick to clisp?
16:07	gnuvince_	pao: better stick to clisp
16:08	pao	gnuvince_: thanx
16:08	Chousuke	there are translations of some of the examples to clojure though.
16:09	gnuvince_	Anyone got comments on that quickcheck thing?
16:10	kotarak	gnuvince_: you could use classes for the arbitrary methods. (arbitrary Integer)
16:10	pao	is it difficult to migrate from clisp to clojure?
16:10	stuarthalloway	gnuvince_: have you looked at Fact?
16:11	gnuvince_	stuarthalloway: I have not. Link?
16:11	stuarthalloway	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/193023afbf87698d
16:12	stuarthalloway	gnuvince_: Fact is also embedded in Compojure, which uses it for its tests: http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master
16:12	gnuvince_	Hmmm
16:12	gnuvince_	That's pretty cute
16:12	gnuvince_	Oh well
16:13	gnuvince_	at least I got to learn a little about metadata and symbols and macros :)
16:13	Chousuke	pao: well, immutability kind of forces you to rethink some algorithms :)
16:13	kotarak	gnuvince_: then there clojurecheck. But I have a hard time at the moment to work on it.
16:14	stuarthalloway	kotarak: I was just looking for a link to that
16:14	gnuvince_	I think I saw that
16:14	kotarak	I haven't put up a site, yet. But the repo is online.
16:14	gnuvince_	stuarthalloway: didn't you actually write that?
16:15	gnuvince_	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/2cfdd49dace71125
16:15	stuarthalloway	gnuvince: I wrote a few suggestions, but kotarak ran with it
16:15	gnuvince_	ok
16:15	stuarthalloway	I have to keep reminding myself that my day job is writing prose, not code, at least for a few more weeks
16:15	gnuvince_	;)
16:16	gnuvince_	How's the book coming?
16:18	kotarak	gnuvince_: if you are interested: http://www.bitbucket.org/kotarak/clojurecheck/overview/, but Fact and the others are probably farther down the road...
16:18	gnuvince_	I like how Fact is looking
16:18	gnuvince_	I'll look at clojurecheck
16:19	gnuvince_	Although you have extra points for using Mercurial ;)
16:19	kotarak	hehe :)
16:20	danlarkin	I was sighing at bitbucket :)
16:21	gnuvince_	danlarkin: why?
16:24	danlarkin	Mmmm
16:25	durka	i thought all of the #= were supposed to be gone from the repl?
16:25	stuarthalloway	gnuvince_: slow but steady. The Snake example will complete the "tour of libraries" chapter
16:25	danlarkin	it's a lot like github, but some of the ways it differs I do not like
16:25	stuarthalloway	which I have been thinking about renaming "Pandora's box" Having all of Java to choose from is a mixed bag
16:27	gnuvince_	danlarkin: so what if it's similar?
16:27	gnuvince_	stuarthalloway: I'll probably buy it when it comes out. I got enough stuff to read these days, I don't want to have a beta book as well ;)
16:31	knapr	Im noobish to a lot of CS-stuff. are there general parsing packages where you could define a few attributes to a parser and then it would construct one for you?
16:33	hiredman	danlarkin just pointed out http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/tree/master
16:33	zakwilson	knapr: the short answer is yes.
16:36	Chouser	that looks nice
16:36	Chousuke	clojurebot: parser?
16:36	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:36	Chousuke	clojurebot: parser is http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse/tree/master
16:36	clojurebot	Ok.
16:36	durka	that makes sense...
16:36	durka	the major version of class files in java 1.5 is 49
16:42	kotarak	clojurebot: #()
16:42	clojurebot	#() is not a replacement for fn
16:43	hiredman	clojurebot: monads?
16:43	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:43	hiredman	clojurebot: monad?
16:43	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:43	hiredman	clojurebot: monads is http://www.bolour.com/papers/monads-through-pictures.html
16:43	clojurebot	Ok.
16:43	RSchulz	No one does.
16:44	RSchulz	(Understand monads, that is)
16:44	technomancy	kotarak: it's not a replacement for fn just because it has the implied parens?
16:45	kotarak	yes and because the doc says so.
16:45	danlarkin	technomancy: it's not a replacement because it has a subset of the functionality
16:45	kotarak	and it can't be nested.
16:45	Chousuke	RSchulz: After much meditation I finally feel like I understand them enough to see why they're useful.
16:45	RSchulz	Congratulations!
16:45	Chousuke	many of the details still escape me though.
16:45	RSchulz	I'm still working on it.
16:47	technomancy	I always felt like lambdas in other lisps were just a bit too verbose after being spoiled by Ruby's {} block syntax, but clojure's #() is even more succinct
16:48	Chousuke	arc has pretty nice shorthand too
16:48	Chousuke	that is, []
16:48	Chousuke	with _ for the arg IIRC :/
16:49	Chousuke	#() is just as nice though. saves the brackets for something even more useful :)
16:56	zakwilson	The Clojure version also allows for multiple args - Arc's bracket syntax does not.
16:58	Chousuke	zakwilson: IIRC it was expanded in anarki to support multiple args though
17:01	zakwilson	Chousuke: that may be.
17:01	zakwilson	I really wanted to like Arc, and I didn't want to like Clojure.
17:02	Chouser	I wanted to like Arc too.
17:02	hiredman	clojurebot: arc?
17:02	clojurebot	Huh?
17:02	Chouser	exactly
17:03	hiredman	clojurebot: Paul Graham?
17:03	clojurebot	Paul Graham is the creator of the other new lisp
17:04	zakwilson	Even if it had taken off like Clojure did, I don't like the feel of it as much.
17:04	ehird	ew, arc
17:09	technomancy	I think enough time has passed that "heh, arc" is an appropriate response
17:09	technomancy	or "heh; remember arc?"
17:10	ehird	arc is now an adjective
17:10	ehird	"Clojure is totally unarc."
17:18	pjb3	So I was at a haskell meeting yesterday, saw something that was pretty cool, so I'm going to discuss it in here :)
17:18	pjb3	In #haskell, and in the other room we were in, #novalang, they have a lambdabot
17:18	knapr	the whole idea of a 100-year language seems very self-masturbating and somewhat ridiculous
17:19	knapr	clojure wins heavily on being awesome now
17:19	knapr	best language + best platform
17:19	pjb3	lambdabot is pretty cool, it does a bunch of stuff, but the best is that it can eval haskell expressions
17:19	hiredman	,(println "lambdabot envy")
17:19	clojurebot	nil
17:19	clojurebot	lambdabot envy
17:19	hiredman	hmmmm
17:19	Raynes	#Scala has a lambdabot.
17:19	pjb3	clojurebot: You can eval expressions?
17:19	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:19	pjb3	,(+ 2 3)
17:19	clojurebot	5
17:20	hiredman	lambdabot is in #freebsd too for some reason
17:20	pjb3	Hey!
17:20	pjb3	So, ok, I'll be the asshole, how do you deal with this:
17:20	gnuvince	pjb3: some might consider that a feature of lambdabot: access to IO is completely restricted
17:20	pjb3	,(System/exit 0)
17:20	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission exitVM.0) (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:20	pjb3	AH!
17:20	pjb3	very cool
17:21	technomancy	hiredman: did you have to do much to sandbox stuff like that, or are there built-in mechanisms for it?
17:21	pjb3	That was part of the discussion, saying how haskell is awesome because as long as the expression gets evaled outside of a monad, you know it can't do anything malicious
17:21	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox?
17:21	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
17:21	hiredman	is the main thing
17:21	technomancy	cool
17:22	hiredman	and I use tree-seq to weed out certain expressions
17:22	hiredman	,(def a nil)
17:22	clojurebot	DENIED
17:23	pjb3	What happens if I do (iterate inc 1)
17:23	hiredman	,(interate inc 1)
17:23	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: interate in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:23	hiredman	,(iterate inc 1)
17:23	hiredman	only one way to find out
17:24	pjb3	Hey, you did it, not me :)
17:24	pjb3	clojurebot: still there?
17:24	hiredman	sigh
17:24	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
17:24	pjb3	so don't ask clojurebot to eval an infinite lazy sequence
17:24	pjb3	clojurebot: you're back?
17:24	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:24	hiredman	anyway, after ten seconds the thread the expression is eval'ed in gets killed
17:25	pjb3	ah
17:26	gnuvince	,(.toUpper "j�r�me")
17:26	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: toUpper for class java.lang.String (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
17:26	gnuvince	,(.toUpperCase "j�r�me")
17:26	clojurebot	J�R�ME
17:26	technomancy	nice i10n, clojurebot!
17:26	technomancy	or is it i18n?
17:27	pjb3	I think it;s i18n and l10n
17:27	hiredman	it's unicode
17:27	Chousuke	hmm
17:28	gnuvince	i18n is internationalization: translating an app
17:28	Chousuke	wonder what toupper does to something that has no such operation defined.
17:28	Chousuke	probably leaves it as is.
17:28	gnuvince	Chousuke: yes
17:28	gnuvince	,(.toUpperCase "33")
17:28	clojurebot	33
17:29	Chousuke	,(.toUpperCase "???")
17:29	clojurebot	???
17:29	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:29	Chousuke	:D
17:29	Chousuke	it does not understand japanese.
17:29	gnuvince	Is there such a thing as uppercase in japanese?
17:30	Chousuke	nah.
17:30	hiredman	well, I was just mucking with the sandbox
17:30	Chousuke	hiredman: does the sandbox kill things launched in subthreads now too?
17:30	hiredman	and I broke something and fixed it, so you may have hit a broken window
17:30	hiredman	Chousuke: nope
17:30	hiredman	,(throwsome and exception)
17:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: throwsome in this context
17:30	Chousuke	so I can still run an infinite loop in a new thread, right?
17:30	gnuvince	,(.toUpperCase "?
17:30	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading string
17:30	gnuvince	,(.toUpperCase "?")
17:30	clojurebot	?
17:31	Chousuke	cool.
17:31	hiredman	Chousuke: yes (sshhh)
17:31	danlarkin	to late! secret's out! bahhah
17:31	RSchulz	So why are we using this (fn ...) business when we could use a real lambda??
17:31	hiredman	no ? key
17:32	hiredman	,(let [x ?] x)
17:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: ? in this context
17:32	hiredman	,(let [x '?] x)
17:32	clojurebot	?
17:32	Chousuke	,(clojure.core/def ? fn)
17:32	danlarkin	RSchulz: the fortress channel is thataway ------->
17:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: clojure.core/def
17:32	Chousuke	oh. hmm
17:32	technomancy	RSchulz: I have Emacs render (fn as (?
17:32	RSchulz	Eh?
17:32	technomancy	it's pretty nice
17:32	technomancy	but rendering javascript's "function" as "?" saves a lot more chars
17:32	Chousuke	,(eval '(def ? fn))
17:32	clojurebot	DENIED
17:33	Chousuke	,(eval '((symbol "def") ? fn))
17:33	clojurebot	DENIED
17:33	Chousuke	gah
17:33	RSchulz	I sense the presence of Mac-o-philes...
17:33	danlarkin	I love "DENIED"
17:33	RSchulz	Anybody ever use MPW?
17:33	Chouser	RSchulz: in what way is fn not a "real lambda"?
17:33	RSchulz	I loved that thing.
17:33	RSchulz	I mean the letter. The glyph.
17:33	Chousuke	Chouser: it's not ?
17:33	technomancy	Chouser: I think he meant typographically
17:33	Chouser	oh! sorry. My IRC client renders all these as ?
17:33	hiredman	Chousuke: btw java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/fn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
17:34	Chouser	I suppose I should try to fix that.
17:34	knapr	cant i just (alter a (fn [x] 100)) to set the ref a to 100? i get "no transaction running"
17:34	Chouser	knapr: wrap (dosync ...) around it
17:34	RSchulz	Then you can get the snowman glyph, too.
17:34	knapr	dosync
17:34	knapr	ah
17:35	Chousuke	,(clojure.core/defmacro mydef [& rest] `(~(symbol "def") ~@rest))
17:35	clojurebot	nil
17:36	Chousuke	,(mydef x 1)
17:36	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
17:36	Chousuke	hooray.
17:36	RSchulz	Security Schmecurity.
17:37	kotarak	maybe we need (ns #^{:read-only true} sandbox), now that we can have metadata with namespaces?
17:37	Chousuke	,(clojure.core/defmacro ? [& rest] `(~(symbol "clojure.core" "fn") ~@rest))
17:37	clojurebot	nil
17:37	Chousuke	there we go.
17:37	hiredman	oooo
17:38	technomancy	,((? [x] (+ 2 x)) 8)
17:38	clojurebot	10
17:38	technomancy	clojurebot: high-five!
17:38	hiredman	:(
17:38	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:40	Chousuke	I don't think defn and defmacro are that dangerous in the sandbox though.
17:40	Chousuke	or hmm
17:40	Chousuke	(mydef clojure.core/+ -)
17:40	Chousuke	,(mydef clojure.core/+ -)
17:40	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't create defs outside of current ns
17:41	Chousuke	,(clojure.core/require 'hiredman.clojurebot-core)
17:41	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:41	Chousuke	no access outside :(
17:43	hiredman	Chousuke: you can use def to make new names for things, and use that to get around checks for stuff that breaks Thread.stop
17:44	hiredman	specifically (catch ...)
17:44	Chousuke	well, yeah
17:44	Chousuke	the blacklist is rather ineffective.
17:44	Chousuke	but blacklists always are.
17:44	Chousuke	need to figure out something different.
17:45	Chousuke	wonder if it's possible to modify the clojure.core namespace so that those operations are nops
17:45	gnuvince	Maybe we could have a data structure into which we could wrap IO stuff to prevent bad thigns from happening. We could call those "Gonads"
17:45	hiredman	you can do stuff like (binding [defn nil] stuff)
17:46	hiredman	but all the cool stuffs are special forms
17:46	hiredman	so binding doesn't work
17:46	Chousuke	yeah
17:46	Chousuke	so it'd need reader hackery :/
17:47	hiredman	or delving more into the jvm security stuff
17:47	Chousuke	I don't think it can help us anymore.
17:47	Chousuke	the default sandbox is a minimum permission sandbox :/
17:47	hiredman	no
17:47	Chousuke	as far as I know anyway
17:48	hiredman	the default is the applet permission set
17:49	knapr	bah i must be stupid today, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98383/, isnt there a very simple way to parse that? i included some of the file, it is a complete example
17:49	knapr	i mean completely representative
17:49	hiredman	clojurebot: sandbox
17:49	clojurebot	sandbox is http://calumleslie.blogspot.com/2008/06/simple-jvm-sandboxing.html
18:09	hiredman	,(java.security.AccessController/getContext)
18:09	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlContext@eed4d3
18:10	hiredman	,(bean (java.security.AccessController/getContext))
18:10	clojurebot	{:class java.security.AccessControlContext, :domainCombiner nil}
18:10	hiredman	pfft
18:10	hiredman	useless
18:13	knapr	bah i must be stupid today, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98383/, isnt there a very simple way to parse that? i included some of the file, it is a completely representative example. anyone could simplify it?
18:13	Chouser	what are you trying to produce? {1 (30878 ...), 10 (1952305 ..)} ?
18:18	Chouser	knapr: (second (reduce (fn [[k m] [_ n c]] (let [i (Integer. n), k (if c i k)] [k (if c (assoc m k []) (assoc m k (conj (m k) i)))])) [nil {}] (re-seq #"(\d+)(:)?\s+" x)))
18:21	hiredman	how evil is it to make an object whose hashCode method always returns 1?
18:22	technomancy	I'd rate that at a Mugabe-level evil.
18:23	danlarkin	that's pretty high up!
18:23	technomancy	less than Hitler-level or Cthulu-level, but worse than anyone should have to deal with on a regular basis.
18:26	hiredman	ugh
18:30	powr-toc	Hi all, does Stuart Halloway frequent here often? :-)
18:30	durka	yes
18:30	durka	not at present apparently, but his username is surprisingly stuarthalloway
18:32	powr-toc	durka: ok... was just wondering if he was in... A clojure example on his blog doesn't appear to work with the latest version... I've got a trivial fix for him, but his blog comments are closed.
18:35	knapr	clojurebot: is_rhickey_a_minor_god?
18:35	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:35	knapr	clojurebot: is_rhickey_is_a_minor_god? is yes
18:35	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
18:35	knapr	clojurebot: is_rhickey_a_minor_god?
18:35	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:36	knapr	why doesnt that work?
18:36	durka	clojurebot: rhickey?
18:36	clojurebot	he works hard so you don't have to
18:36	durka	clojurebot: is_rhickey_a_minor_god is yes
18:36	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
18:37	durka	clojurebot: is_rhickey_a_minor_god?
18:37	clojurebot	is_rhickey_a_minor_god is yes
18:38	dreish	,'#=(eval (def x-ploit "myvalueforx"))
18:38	billc1	Is yes
18:38	dreish	,#=(eval 'x)
18:39	dreish	Hmm. I wonder how they prevent that.
18:39	dreish	,(+ 1 2)
18:39	clojurebot	3
18:39	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
18:39	clojurebot	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
18:39	dreish	Ah, you're here.
18:40	dreish	So, did you think of that one already, or did I screw something up?
18:40	hiredman	,(identity #=(eval 'x))
18:40	clojurebot	1
18:40	dreish	I read the code earlier today and couldn't see anything ...
18:40	hiredman	,(identity #=(eval x))
18:40	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context
18:40	hiredman	dreish: magic I guess
18:41	hiredman	it throws away anything that does not start with a (
18:41	dreish	Oh, duh.
18:41	hiredman	which I explicit coded in, then removed, but it still does it for some reason
18:41	dreish	,(identity #=(eval (def x-test "test2")))
18:41	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/x-test
18:41	dreish	Hmm.
18:41	hiredman	:(
18:41	dreish	So it does have that problem.
18:41	hiredman	yeah
18:41	dreish	I think the fix is easy, though: just scan the string for "#="
18:42	dreish	Not much else you can do, unless you want to implement a special reader.
18:42	hiredman	I really wish I could make sense of the jvm security stuff
18:48	dreish	It might be worth having a LispReader.readWithoutEval().
18:49	dreish	,(identity #=(eval (def plea-to-rhickey "Can we have a LispReader.readWithoutEval()?")))
18:49	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/plea-to-rhickey
18:50	rhickey	dreish: this for security?
18:50	dreish	Yeah. Is it a lost cause?
18:50	rhickey	not at all - planned
18:50	rhickey	necessary
18:50	dreish	Awesome, thanks.
18:50	rhickey	will be some sort of flag
18:50	dreish	Right.
18:51	danlarkin	oh that will open up a lot of neat possibilities
18:52	rhickey	dreish: might as well call it read-eval a la CL, want to make an enhancement request in the issue system?
18:52	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/list
18:52	dreish	rhickey: Okay, but it'll mean learning two things in one day.
18:52	knapr	how an for what do I use with-open?
18:53	hiredman	rhickey: I dunno how plausable this would be, because catch is special, but it would be nice if I could thread local bind catch to nil somehow
18:53	hiredman	knapr: anything with a .close method
18:54	hiredman	(with-open [file (java.io.FileWriter "foo")] (.write file "bar"))
18:54	knapr	i see now, it worked
19:00	dreish	Would read-eval be binding-able?
19:01	dreish	I guess it would have to be.
19:16	ole3	hello
19:16	ole3	can i ask some questions about packages
19:16	ole3	ok, i simply ask
19:17	rhickey	dreish: yes, that's how it would work - defaults to true
19:17	ole3	how do i define a package, or where can i get info about how to do it
19:17	Chousuke	clojurebot: namespace?
19:17	clojurebot	Huh?
19:17	Chousuke	hm
19:18	Chousuke	ole3: anyway: you need to define a namespace, using the (ns) macro
19:18	dreish	clojure.contrib has several examples.
19:18	ole3	ok, i look it up
19:18	Chousuke	ole3: the name of a namespace must match the layout of files in a certain way similar to java.
19:19	Chousuke	examples are best I suppose. :)
19:19	ole3	thank you, i found the ns macro
19:20	ole3	i got no idea about the java files layout
19:23	Chousuke	ole3: well, if you have ~/mycode/ in your classpath, and want a namespace net.ole.myprog, the ns declaration must be in the file ~/mycode/net/ole/myprog.clj
19:23	ole3	Chousuke: that means i have a directory structure like /src/main/resources etc. ?
19:23	powr-toc	ole3: I think Chousuke is referring to how in Java classes are organised into packages e.g. foo.bar.BazClass and tend to be stored in a matching directory tree e.g. /foo/bar/BazClass.(java\|class)
19:24	ole3	ok, thank you
19:25	technomancy	my co-worker jokes about how he gets paid by the directory for writing Java
19:25	Chousuke	ole3: there's one catch with the naming though: if you have dashes ("-") in the namespace name, the corresponding file must have an underscore, due to a java limitation :/
19:25	walters	i wonder if that one is fixed in jdk7
19:25	technomancy	Chousuke: that's weird; I haven't run into that problem
19:25	walters	jrose did a blog about symbolic freedom
19:26	technomancy	I have a test-models.clj file that works fine
19:26	technomancy	oh... nm; the namespace doesn't match up for that and I load it only via slime
19:27	ole3	ok, i have a file named project.clj, which includes a ns definition that says (:require foo bar)
19:28	walters	http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/symbolic_freedom_in_the_vm
19:28	ole3	means that that i need to have a dir named foo with a file named bar.clj ?
19:28	hiredman	(doc require)
19:28	clojurebot	Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents define a library of
19:29	hiredman	ole3: generally . is used as a directory seperator
19:30	hiredman	I think (:require foo bar) would require foo.clj and bar.clj, but that would not work because namespaces need at least two segments
19:30	hiredman	so (:require foo.bar foo.baz)
19:31	hiredman	which would need foo/bar.clj and foo/baz.clj to be in the classpath
19:31	ole3	ok, so namespace = path + filename
19:31	ole3	thank you
19:31	ole3	i will try
19:33	ole3	ah, i find the doc
19:34	ole3	last question: is there a way to perform an operation after a lib has been loaded?
19:34	blbrown	does anyone have tips for this question. http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/88d7f7b706ebf62f?hl=en
19:34	ole3	like cl asdf:oos :after?
19:37	ole3	hiredman: thanks for your help, sometimes i can't thing straight
19:37	ole3	good night
19:44	technomancy	but I guess html generation is pretty much the same in any lisp. =)
19:44	technomancy	just used to some really ugly stuff in Ruby
19:48	Nafai	technomancy: Is it basically just some sexp representation of the html?
19:48	technomancy	yeah, in vectors
19:48	Nafai	Cool
19:48	technomancy	at the bottom: http://github.com/weavejester/compojure/tree/master
19:49	Nafai	Nice
19:56	Chouser	blbrown: It'll be a lot of work to allow a config.clj to set some things and not others if you're trying to block malicious intent.
19:56	Chouser	but if you want to have it default to 'def'ing vars in a particular namespace (like my-app.config), that shouldn't be too hard.
19:57	blbrown	Chouser, that is goal. I don't like java properties files, I wanted something a little bit more customizable
19:59	Chouser	(binding [ns (create-ns 'my-app.config)] (load-file "/tmp/config.clj"))
20:00	amagee	hey if i have a list, say '(\a \b \c), how can i convert it to a string "abc"?
20:00	Chousuke	I think (str yourlist) should do
20:01	amagee	no that gives "(\\a \\b \\c)"
20:01	Chousuke	,(apply str '(\a \b \c))
20:01	clojurebot	abc
20:01	Chousuke	right, apply to the rescue
20:01	amagee	ah cool
20:02	amagee	how come that is different?
20:02	Chouser	,(str \a \b \c)
20:02	clojurebot	abc
20:02	Chousuke	apply expands the seq(s) to be the arglist of the function
20:02	amagee	ah i see
20:02	amagee	thanks
20:03	ole3	is there an argument limit to apply?
20:03	Chousuke	I don't know.
20:03	Chouser	ole3: no
20:03	ole3	wow
20:03	Chouser	infinite seqs are ok
20:04	Chousuke	... how does that work?
20:04	ole3	infinite ...?
20:04	Chousuke	is the function required to treat its argument as infinite?
20:04	Chousuke	possibly infinite*
20:04	Chousuke	I think I might be asking stupid questions.
20:05	Chouser	,(apply (fn [& args] (take 3 args)) 1 (iterate inc 10))
20:05	clojurebot	(1 10 11)
20:05	ole3	,(* 123 123)
20:05	clojurebot	15129
20:05	ole3	ah
20:05	Chousuke	ole3: infinite seqs like (iterate inc 1)
20:06	Chouser	Chousuke: sorta -- you'd have to have a & rest part to take advantage of it.
20:06	Chouser	kinda hard to provide an infinite number of named args. :-)
20:06	Chousuke	heh
20:06	ole3	so i do not evaluate the whole seq
20:06	Chousuke	wasn't there some limit to named args though?
20:06	Chousuke	20 or something.
20:07	ole3	in cl, yes, in bash, yes, in clojure, who knows
20:07	Chousuke	more than enough in any case
20:07	Chousuke	if you have a function that takes even 10 args, it's getting too big :P
20:07	Chousuke	10 named args that is.
20:08	ole3	and & body args?
20:08	ole3	do they not count as named?
20:08	Chousuke	I think so.
20:09	Chousuke	doesn't really matter to me.
20:09	Chouser	java.lang.Exception: Can't specify more than 20 params
20:09	Chousuke	20 was the number of overloads rhickey bothered to write I guess :)
20:10	ole3	:)
20:14	ole3	i did start to write a little toy webserver to learn clojure and java, if someone is interested to join, please contact me oruppert@googlemail.com, project page http://code.google.com/p/clojure-web/, thanks
20:15	ole3	good night
20:23	knapr	what time-complexity does "select grade from reviews where movieid = 12 and customerid = 100" have?
20:23	knapr	if the primary key is over customerid and movieid
20:24	Chousuke	rather fast.
20:24	Chousuke	the exact complexity depends on the DBMS I guess.
20:26	danlarkin	knapr: what does time-complexity mean?
20:27	Chousuke	in any case, a query like that is not something you should worry about, on any system :)
20:32	knapr	yes it is already slow for 500 movies and 300K users
20:32	knapr	and in the end i have 17770 movies and 500K users...
20:40	vogelrn	select should be linear
20:41	vogelrn	given a large enough N, however, that doesn't mean it will be fast :P
20:41	Chousuke	you're using something that doesn't automatically index by primary keys? :/
20:58	falconair	When I instantiate an object from a third party jar like such: (SGRectangle.) (or (new SGRectangle)), I get the following result:
20:58	falconair	#<SGRectangle null com.sun.scenario.scenegraph.SGRectangle@b76fa>
20:59	falconair	note the "null" ... when I try to use this object, I get a null pointer error...object is clearly found by clojre, howcome instantiation returns null?
20:59	falconair	In java I can instantiate it as "new SGRectangle()" and it works fine
21:00	MarkVolkmann	What does this error message mean?
21:00	MarkVolkmann	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var my-function-name is unbound
21:01	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: you have no function named my-function-name :/
21:01	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: that is, someplace where you're trying to use it.
21:02	MarkVolkmann	I do have a function with that name before any calls to it. However, it's a function that takes either 1 or 4 parameters.
21:02	MarkVolkmann	The 1 parameter part calls the part that takes 4.
21:02	MarkVolkmann	I verified that all calls to it pass either 1 or 4 arguments.
21:03	arbscht	can you paste a snippet somewhere?
21:05	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: has the defn actually been evaled?
21:05	Chousuke	MarkVolkmann: for example, if you're doing this in emacs or something.
21:05	MarkVolkmann	I'm running it as a script from a Terminal window.
21:06	MarkVolkmann	I'll try to simplify things to isolate the problem. Thanks for the tips!
21:08	dreish	,(time (count (range 1000000)))
21:08	clojurebot	1000000
21:08	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 156.434 msecs"
21:08	dreish	,(time (count (range 999999 -1 -1)))
21:08	clojurebot	1000000
21:08	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 6667.267 msecs"
21:08	dreish	Isn't that odd?
21:09	Chousuke	somewhat.
21:09	dreish	I'd take longer to count backwards too, but I'm not a computer.
21:10	dreish	Oh, I see. With 1 arg or 2, it uses a clojure.lang.Range, and with 3 args it calls iterate, which uses lazy-cons.
21:10	falconair	any idea why my instantiation is returning a null?
21:13	arohner	dreish: so then does (time (count (range 1 1000000 1))) take the same amount of time?
21:13	dreish	Same as the -1, yes.
21:14	Chousuke	sounds like Range should be extended to support a step /:
21:14	dreish	Maybe someday.
21:15	Chousuke	did you already post an issue?
21:15	dreish	I think it might also be nice to have ASeq implement an nthRest() method, to speed up nth on seqs on randomly-accessible data structures.
21:16	dreish	I posted one issue today, yes. :)
21:16	Chousuke	sounds like another thing worthy of an issue
21:16	dreish	I don't really need it myself.
21:17	rhickey	issues is not a wish list
21:17	Chousuke	they're easy to discard, but as long as you post them there's a single place for people to look for ideas and such :)
21:17	Chousuke	hm
21:17	Chousuke	then there should be a wish list :/
21:17	dreish	Where's the wish list?
21:17	rhickey	there's a user wiki
21:25	yangsx	hi, do you agree it's a but that (merge-with '({:a 1, :b 2})) returns nil instead of the single map?
21:25	yangsx	bug
21:34	dreish	No, because the first arg is supposed to be a combining function.
21:35	falconair	...so...any one have a clue what this message means: #<SGRectangle null com.sun.scenario.scenegraph.SGRectangle@b76fa> ? it seems to find the object, but null is returned
21:40	Chouser	you're not getting a null, you're getting a SGRectangle instance with id (or at memory location?) b76fa
21:40	Chouser	The 'null' is most like a datamember, but I'm not quite sure yet.
21:40	Chouser	most likely
21:43	falconair	hm...i guess if it actuall was null, clojure would call it "nil" correct?
21:51	yangsx	dreish: I know the first arg is to be a function, but (apply merge-with list-of-maps) works exactly as I'd expect: add up the values of same keys in all maps, like magic
21:51	yangsx	and a map is a function
21:52	Chouser	falconair: yes
21:53	yangsx	so I guess if the test (when (some identity maps) ...) can be changed to just return the first arg if it's a map
21:53	yangsx	if the test fails
21:53	Chouser	,(apply merge-with '({:a 1} {:b 2}))
21:54	clojurebot	{:b 2}
21:54	Chouser	perhaps you want just 'merge'?
21:54	cmvkk	something interesting: when I run 'count' on a large enough seq it will generate a StackOverflowError...is this known/normal?
21:55	Chouser	cmvkk: what kind of seq were you trying it on?
21:56	cmvkk	hard to say...when i print it it looks like a list of maps but it's supposed to be a vector?
21:56	Chouser	falconair: try running (.toString foo) where foo is your SGRectangle object.
21:56	cmvkk	if you run cons on a vector will the result still be a vector?
21:57	Chouser	cmvkk: the function(s) that are producing the seq may be overflowing the stack.
21:57	Chouser	cmvkk: no
21:57	Chouser	cmvkk: cons operates on seqs, so you'll get back a seq
21:57	cmvkk	it's a list then. anyway i can print the seq out (although it goes beyond my scroll capabilities)
21:57	yangsx	Chouser: you're right, I didn't noticed merge-with discard key-value pairs in the first map, but work correctly with the rest maps
21:57	cmvkk	but trying to (count) it gives a stack overflow.
21:58	Chouser	yangsx: it doesn't discard the first arg, it uses it to resolve conflicts in keys of the following maps.
21:58	yangsx	,(apply merge-with '({:a 1} {:b 2} {:a 2 :b1}))
21:58	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:No value supplied for key: :b1
21:58	Chouser	cmvkk: when you print it, it prints to the end of the seq?
21:58	cmvkk	if i run (take ## foo) where ## is some number much larger than the size of the seq, well, that I can count.
21:58	cmvkk	yes, it prints to the end of the seq.
21:58	yangsx	,(apply merge-with '({:a 1} {:b 2} {:a 2 :b 1}))
21:58	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 1}
22:00	Chouser	cmvkk: can you paste the code that errors out?
22:00	Chouser	lisppaste8: url
22:00	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
22:00	cmvkk	not feasable with the current code, which is 400 lines long or so and requires jumping through some hoops...let me see if i can't come up with a small test case first.
22:01	Chouser	cmvkk: great
22:02	Chouser	cmvkk: It's not more than a million items?
22:02	Chouser	,(count (map identity (range 1000000)))
22:03	clojurebot	1000000
22:03	cmvkk	the problem with using range is that it's a lazy seq, right?
22:03	cmvkk	my example case is one line long, can i just write it in here?
22:03	Chouser	cmvkk: if long is < 256 or so chars
22:04	cmvkk	(count (loop [c 0 x [0]] (if (< c 4601) (recur (inc c) (cons 0 x)) x)))
22:04	Chouser	cmvkk: laziness isn't the issue. range by itself knows its length and would return instantly. by running it through 'map' it loses knowledge of its length, and 'count' has to walk it.
22:04	cmvkk	hmm, okay.
22:05	cmvkk	anyway, my code above only generates a list that's 4601 elements long...
22:05	cmvkk	but it errors for me... it might take a larger number for someone else?
22:05	cmvkk	note that if you do (count (take 10000 (loop ...))) that works
22:06	Chouser	cmvkk: I'm reproducting the error here. interesting.
22:06	falconair	Chouser: running toString returns "null com.sun.scenario.scenegraph.SGRectangle@c26ede" ... so I think I'm not getting a null object back, the prob is somewhere else
22:06	falconair	thanks!
22:07	Chouser	falconair: you're welcome.
22:07	Chouser	cmvkk: Cons.count() is recursive
22:09	Chouser	that's the problem.
22:09	cmvkk	i see.
22:12	Chouser	I'm not sure how best to solve it.
22:13	cmvkk	other than changing how count works?
22:13	cmvkk	as far as a workaround goes, this doesn't affect anything i'm doing anyway, i just thought it was interesting
22:14	Chouser	cmvkk: it is interesting, thanks.
22:16	Chouser	oh! Range objects do not know their length
22:19	Chouser	but PersistentList objects do.
22:22	gnuvince	Ranges don't know their lengths?
22:22	gnuvince	Can't you call count on them?
22:23	Chouser	(count (range n)) is O(n) not O(1)
22:23	gnuvince	ah
22:23	gnuvince	that's weird...
22:23	cmvkk	yeah, that's definitely the case
22:23	Chouser	heh, yeah.
22:23	cmvkk	but it won't overflow the stack either
22:23	Chouser	but this works fine: (count (reduce #(cons %2 %) '(0) (range 4601)))
22:23	gnuvince	It seems it would be a pretty simple arithmetic thing to find it with the start, end and step
22:24	cmvkk	what, what's the difference between that and my example?
22:24	Chouser	'(0) vs [0]
22:25	Chouser	in the former, it's cons'ing onto a PersistentList, creating new PersistentLists for which 'count' is O(1)
22:26	Chouser	in the latter, it's cons'ing on (seq [0]), so you're getting back Cons objects, for which 'count' is O(n) and blows the stack
22:27	cmvkk	I see. on a semi-related note, what i was basically doing was creating stack behavior, and using 'cons', 'first' and 'rest' to accomplish this, starting with an empty vector []. is it better to do it some other way?
22:28	Chouser	cmvkk: start with an empty list ()
22:28	cmvkk	okay
22:39	Chouser	(count (cons :a big-vector)) ; nearly constant time
22:40	Chouser	Cons.count() being recursive allows it to go from linear (for counting the Cons chain) to constant time for the vector seq.
22:43	cmvkk	but the price is that you have to handle conses in a different way than for a list?
22:45	Chouser	well, each class can provide it's own class() method
22:45	Chouser	count() I mean
22:46	Chouser	Cons delegates to the "rest" object, whatever it is.
22:47	arohner	I have a CA. how do I get commit access to contrib?
22:47	arohner	(or do I?)
22:48	Chouser	arohner: I guess you ask rhickey_ -- he's the only one who can grant commit privs, I think.
22:51	arohner	Chouser: thanks
22:59	jacky	what is the best source to see some idiomatic clojure code? Most of the real life code that I have seen seems to be rehash of java in clojure
23:01	Chouser	jacky: there's a book on the way -- the examples are available for free
23:01	jacky	chouser: do you mean stuart H's book?
23:01	Chouser	jacky: clojure-contrib is good, and the projecteuler wiki isn't bad.
23:01	Chouser	jacky: yes
23:02	jacky	projecteuler has clojure code?
23:02	Chouser	no, there's a wiki of clojure solutions to their problems.
23:02	Chouser	clojurebot: project euloer
23:02	clojurebot	excusez-moi
23:02	Chouser	clojurebot: project euler
23:02	clojurebot	project euler is http://ProjectEuler.net
23:02	Chouser	clojurebot: projecteuler
23:02	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:02	Chouser	hmph.
23:03	Chouser	jacky: http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
23:03	jacky	Cool. The best one that I have seen so far is the context free art thingy
23:05	jacky	chouser: clojure-euler looks cool. Thanks.
23:06	Chouser	jacky: If you have the time, I'd recommend trying to solve them yourself, then checking your work against the wiki
23:06	Chouser	it's more fun that way 'round.
23:07	jacky	sure, that is what I plan to do.. I basically want to know the best way to express ideas in clojure
23:08	Chouser	sure. I have no better advice than practice, and projecteuler is good for that
23:17	cmvkk	is there a way to use 'apply' with a static class method?
23:17	cmvkk	i.e. (apply java.lang.Math/hypot some-list)
23:18	cmvkk	oh wait, i guess i can just wrap it in an fn
23:18	Chouser	not directly.
23:18	Chouser	right
23:18	Chouser	(apply #(Math/hypot %1 %2) some-list)
23:21	cmvkk	how come you can't use numbers to index into a list?
23:22	cmvkk	i.e. (get '(1 2) 0)
23:22	cmvkk	i'm full of questions this evening
23:22	Chouser	because 'get' promises O(1), and lists can't deliver
23:22	cmvkk	I see.
23:22	Chouser	you can use 'nth'
23:22	cmvkk	aha.
23:29	Chouser	cmvkk: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/a24abca88ae1af1e
23:30	cmvkk	ooh, neat.
23:30	Chouser	:-)
23:36	Chouser	and thus I've avoided for another evening doing what I ought to do, by doing Clojure instead.
23:36	Chouser	g'night, all.
23:37	cmvkk	goodnight!
23:44	arohner	do ref validators take the ref, or the deref'd new state?
23:45	cmvkk	i believe they take the state.
23:45	cmvkk	"will be passed the intended new state on any state change" from the api
23:46	arohner	that's what I thought, but it's blowing up for me, saying 'invalid state', and I can't figure out why
23:46	arohner	passing the @ref to the validator fn manually works fine
23:48	arohner	nm, returning nil is not acceptable