#clojure – 2009-01-05

2009-01-05

01:37	darkdescendant	Is there a lookup function for maps similar to what assoc-in does (i.e. traverses a nested map given a list of keys)?
01:37	dhaya	darkdescendant: get-in
01:38	darkdescendant	thanks.
04:21	Lau_of_DK	Ola kotarak :)
05:30	AWizzArd	clojurebot: max people
05:30	clojurebot	max people is 116
05:44	nibbs	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/sql/DatabaseMetaData.html#getTables(java.lang.String,%20java.lang.String,%20java.lang.String,%20java.lang.String[])
05:45	nibbs	im trying to figure out how to get the metadata from an sql db
05:45	nibbs	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98052/
05:46	nibbs	so it shouldnt be 4 nils
05:46	nibbs	but...
05:46	nibbs	?
05:47	nibbs	when using resultset-seq
05:47	nibbs	ava.sql.SQLException: No current connection.
05:47	nibbs	user=> #<EmbedResultSet40 org.apache.derby.impl.jdbc.EmbedResultSet40@22fe09>
05:47	nibbs	u
05:47	nibbs	get shtat befoe though
06:02	nibbs	what loginname and password does clojure.contrib.sql use or connectin to databasea?
06:04	AWizzArd	I would think that you have to provide l/p for the db.
06:05	nibbs	l/p?
06:05	nibbs	ah lol
06:05	nibbs	but when(def db {:classname "org.apache.derby.jdbc.EmbeddedDriver"
06:05	nibbs	:subprotocol "derby"
06:05	nibbs	:subname "C:/clojure/progs/netflix/moviereviews.db"
06:05	nibbs	:create true})
06:05	nibbs	that is what is provided
06:14	AWizzArd	put :user "nibbs", :password "secret" into that map
06:14	nibbs	ok
06:14	nibbs	but since it is created already how can i access it, what pw does it already use? none?
06:16	AWizzArd	No idea. db was just set to this hash map.
06:16	nibbs	and should :create always be true? now the db is created...
06:17	nibbs	40 user=>
06:18	nibbs	java.sql.SQLException: No current connection.
06:18	nibbs	(user=>
06:18	nibbs	still
06:18	nibbs	well maybe it should
06:18	nibbs	problem is i dont understand what parameters to proive
06:18	nibbs	provide
06:20	nibbs	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98055/
06:20	nibbs	works htough
06:25	nibbs	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98056/
06:25	nibbs	weird
06:25	nibbs	sometimes it returns the correct answer and fo other operations i get sql-exception
06:25	nibbs	no connection
06:44	knapr	is i only me? im trying to learn Java (know python and C since before) along with Clojure. every text I read about Java, every design-ebook etc, they just strike me as bullshit and pseudo-science. it's like they couldnt solve a real problem so they created Java instead, in a lot of ways worse than was already. then all these shortcomings somehow got accedpted and there is a whole religion built around how to work with it and noone is aqski
08:23	knapr	how can I set foreign key and primary key with contrib.sql?
09:53	StartsWithK	how do i implement overloaded methods with genclass?
09:54	StartsWithK	like (defn -method [#^String a] ...) (defn -method [#^String a #^String b] ...)
09:54	StartsWithK	or (defn -method ([#^String a] ..) ([#^String a #^String b] ...))
09:54	StartsWithK	what if they have same arity but different signatures?
09:55	hiredman	(doc defmulti)
09:55	clojurebot	Creates a new multimethod with the associated dispatch function. If default-dispatch-val is supplied it becomes the default dispatch value of the multimethod, otherwise the default dispatch value is :default.; arglists ([name dispatch-fn] [name dispatch-fn default-val])
09:55	StartsWithK	(i know 'this' has to be a first argument)
09:55	hiredman	actually
09:56	hiredman	I've never tried defmulti with genclass
09:56	RSchulz	Aren't they for entirely different purposes?
09:56	StartsWithK	yes
09:56	StartsWithK	multimethod don't have anything to do with genclass
09:56	cgrand	StartsWithK: -method-String and -method-String-String (at least that was working like this before AOT)
09:56	RSchulz	I mean, there's no real interaction between Clojure multimethods and Java overloaded methods, is there?
09:57	hiredman	RSchulz: it would look more or less the same from java
09:57	Chouser	cgrand: I believe that still works.
09:57	RSchulz	But the multimethod mechanisms are unrelated to Java dispatch.
09:57	StartsWithK	none, multimethods (last time i looked) are implemented using hash-map
09:58	StartsWithK	more or less..
09:58	StartsWithK	will try this -method-String-String
09:58	StartsWithK	then i don't have to prvide type hints at all?
09:58	StartsWithK	like (def -method [this #^String a] ..)
09:58	Chouser	StartsWithK: I think you also have the option of accepting the appropriate arity and then doing a runtime check on the arg type to determine what to do.
09:58	StartsWithK	just 'a'?
09:59	Chouser	StartsWithK: I don't think the arg type hints are used by gen-class at all. ...though now that you mention it, I wonder why not.
09:59	hiredman	RSchulz: but multimethod dispatch can behave the same way java dispatch does
09:59	StartsWithK	while im at genclass
09:59	rhickey	Chouser: right, that's the default - all methods of same arity route to same fn
09:59	RSchulz	But how does that help you with gen-class?
09:59	Chouser	oh, they are hints and wouldn't be sufficient to differentiate the fn names.
09:59	StartsWithK	how do i put annotations?
09:59	rhickey	StartsWithK: no annotation supprt at present
09:59	RSchulz	It's conceptually a more general mechanism, but it just doesn't intersect with or interoperate with Java method dispatch or class generation, does it?
09:59	StartsWithK	is it in metadata? like {#^annotation}?
09:59	StartsWithK	i see
10:00	StartsWithK	could i add them somehow manually?
10:00	StartsWithK	with introspection or something
10:00	StartsWithK	just asking, not needing it for now
10:00	RSchulz	rhickey: Does genclass create all methods with Object arguments only?
10:00	rhickey	RSchulz: you can implement a Java method using a Clojure multimethod with the right name
10:01	RSchulz	Really? I didn't realize that.
10:01	Chouser	rhickey: good morning! If there are threads on the g.group with errors and/or patches (that haven't been shot down by the community), but which you've never commented on, would it be appropriate to post them on the issues page?
10:01	rhickey	gen-class generates stubs that map Java methods to Clojure fns
10:01	RSchulz	But the methods have to have specific argument signatures in their bytecode. That's what I'm asking about. Are they all Object?
10:02	rhickey	Chouser: yes please, all patches in issues from now on. I sometimes only get to read the group in chunks when I don't have time to do triage, so having issues is the key to things not getting lost
10:02	StartsWithK	there will be (ns foo.bas "doc string"), will it also be posible to add something like (ns foo.bas "docstring" {:author "blah" :license ".."}) ?
10:02	rhickey	RSchulz: no, the methods have the specific types, the translation to/from Object happens in the stub
10:03	rhickey	StartsWithK: I'd prefer (:meta {:author "blah" ...})
10:03	StartsWithK	that would be cool too
10:03	StartsWithK	and also, there is (comment) in clojure.core
10:04	StartsWithK	maybe it should inserti itself in :comment metadata
10:04	StartsWithK	for namespace, for doc generation or something
10:04	Chouser	that sounds kinda icky
10:05	rhickey	comment != doc
10:05	Chouser	I'd be pretty surprised to find all my comments loaded up as strings in the runtime
10:05	RSchulz	Happily surprised??
10:05	Chouser	RSchulz: heh. no. :-_)
10:06	Chouser	:-)
10:06	StartsWithK	not comments, i mean (comment) macro only, many libs put examples there
10:06	Chouser	StartsWithK: with the ns/:doc support, perhaps those should be moved there.
10:07	Chouser	Or perhaps they should be put in :test or :example metadata (perhaps compiled into a fn?) on the ns.
10:08	RSchulz	I think Clojure has arrived. The list has a thread on how to pronounce it...
10:09	StartsWithK	and maybe (:use ns :hint [fn1 fn2 ..]) so you can see from where function is imported?
10:10	StartsWithK	ignored by (ns) macro, and used only for humans
10:10	hiredman	use require then
10:10	Chouser	StartsWithK: why not (:use [that-ns :only (fn1 fn2)]), and have it be checked by the computer?
10:10	hiredman	so when you call the function, you can see where it is from
10:10	hiredman	or do what Chouser said
10:11	StartsWithK	sometimes i use all function from namespace
10:11	StartsWithK	like in my 'core'
10:11	StartsWithK	it would be only optional hint
10:12	drewr	RSchulz: In the old days we watched rhickey's screencasts and found out implicitly how to pronounce it. It's unfortunate that people are apparently passing them up now.
10:13	RSchulz	Too bad. I'm about to give them (some of them, anyway) a second viewing.
10:17	Chouser	I think it's important for proposed changes that have been rejected to be documented as such. Does everyone think its sufficient to make sure the conclusion is included in the g.group thread?
10:21	rhickey	Chouser: good question
10:21	rhickey	g.group had 2001 messages in December!
10:21	RSchulz	Yeah, it's really ramping up. I'm going to need monthly archive folders from here on.
10:22	RSchulz	Are you ready for fame and fortune?
10:22	Chouser	its usefulness as a source of documentation (which was never particularly strong) is dwindeling.
10:22	StartsWithK	wiki page with descriptive title and irc paste of why something was rejected?
10:23	rhickey	Chouser: I wonder, with a small amount of editorial, it could still be really useful, given the linkability. For instance a wiki/faq entry could point to a discussion
10:23	RSchulz	But its utility as the community forum is more important. The tone and quality of answers to the kinds of questions that will continually show up there will provide the first impression to newcomers.
10:23	Chouser	rhickey: true
10:24	rhickey	but yes, raw searching could be tough
10:24	rhickey	I'm still trying to get a feel for how the issue threads will connect to the group discussions
10:26	RSchulz	Many other large projects (Grails and Groovy, each, Scala) have multiple lists, one for its developers, one for casual questions, one for debating new directions, etc.
10:26	Chouser	I've got a list of group threads from the last week or two that I want to make sure aren't lost. Some are candidates for becoming issues, but I feel like I'd need to link both directsion (from issue to source discussion, and from group discussion to the new issue)
10:28	rhickey	Chouser: I've dropped issue links in the discussion threads, but haven't done the other, and probably should
10:30	Chouser	it seems like an "escalation" to take a disucssion to the issues page. I'd hate to see any further discussion split -- I wonder if it'd be worth encouraging any further discussion to happen in the issue thread.
10:34	drewr	rhickey: I started looking at two or three of the issues to submit patches and they were already completed in recent commits. Do you need some assistance moderating the issue queue?
10:34	rhickey	Chouser: it's so hard to define policy before practice... - I've added prompts to the issue entry forms to supply links to the group discussions
10:34	Chouser	rhickey: ok
10:34	rhickey	drewr: things I did?
10:34	drewr	rhickey: Yes, unless I'm mistaken.
10:35	rhickey	Chouser: I'd like to think that by the time it's an issue, discussion moves to implementation details of any patches
10:36	rhickey	drewr: I think it was just :validator for refs/agents, I marked as fixed today
10:36	drewr	rhickey: Like, :validator and :meta. It looks like you've since closed it.
10:36	drewr	Er, yeah. :-)
10:36	drewr	I guess I just happened to catch it in flux.
10:37	rhickey	my bad, I should have marked on commit
10:38	Chousuke	rhickey: has my CA arrived yet? I sent one before christmas (forgot to put my name on the envelope, though.)
10:39	rhickey	anyone made progress on android apps?
10:39	rhickey	Chousuke: checking PO box on today's todo list...
10:39	Chousuke	okay.
10:40	Chouser	I saw a screenshot of a clojure hello-world on the android emulator
10:40	rhickey	I got that running myself - was wondering if anyone went any further
10:40	rhickey	esp, any other issues
10:41	Chouser	someone said they ran it on an actual device, but that's the most I've heard.
10:41	rhickey	me too
10:44	rhickey	everyone doing ok with the clojure.main stuff?
10:47	rhickey	Chouser: did some thinking on your notify-when-done scenario. I'm not sure it's a job for watchers. You could just send a second action which updates your counter, leaving first action purely functional.
10:49	drewr	What became of the listener/reactor/interested-third-party discussion?
10:49	Chouser	drewr: they're called watchers
10:49	rhickey	still experimental, name too :)
10:50	drewr	:-0
10:50	drewr	)
10:51	rhickey	Chouser: the problem with notify on all actions is that it would be impossible to have terminating loops, as it is now, loops terminate when state stabilizes
10:52	rhickey	of course there could be another flag for notify-when
10:52	Chouser	now when my watcher sends actions to its neighbors, the action it sends includes a call to the functional fn, plus code to update counters
10:52	rhickey	Chouser: right, I'm advocating sending 2 actions
10:53	rhickey	first a pure fn of state, second an identity fn of state with side-effect of notification
10:54	rhickey	i.e. the agent queue already provides a serialization mechanism capable of expressing - done
10:54	Chouser	ok, I understand.
10:55	Chouser	so still use a watcher
10:56	rhickey	no
10:56	Chouser	hm, maybe I don't understand. :-)
10:56	rhickey	or maybe I don't :)
10:56	Chouser	well, let me try it. that always helps me.
10:56	rhickey	you were sending action, and using watcher which updated some counter
10:57	rhickey	but when action is no-op on state, watcher (now) doesn't run
10:57	Chouser	my watcher both updated a counter and on changed state sent actions to other agents
10:57	rhickey	so replace watcher with second action which updates counter
10:58	rhickey	ok, so I'm only talking about the counter-decrement-on-done part
11:04	knapr	java.lang.Exception: transaction rolled back: Syntax error: Encountered ")" at line 1, column 30. (parsing.clj:0)
11:04	knapr	this eeror message makes no sense
11:04	knapr	line 0 in my file?
11:04	knapr	is it in the database or in my program tha the error is?
11:05	Chouser	if I have two actions i and j queued on an agent, and i triggers a watcher, there's no way to force that watcher's action to complete before j is started, right?
11:06	rhickey	Chouser: right'
11:06	Chouser	knapr: try looking at the rest of the stack trace, it's likely to help you figure out what's going on.
11:06	rhickey	biab
11:07	Chouser	ok, I was relying on that ability in the old watch impl. in order to succinctly avoid a race condition.
11:08	knapr	how do I turn on full stacktraces?
11:08	Chouser	knapr: you can print the more recent exception's stack using (.printStackTrace *e)
11:09	Chouser	or a new stack pretty-printer in contrib that I haven't tried yet.
11:11	knapr	Caused by: ERROR 42X01: Syntax error: Encountered ")" at line 1, column 30.
11:11	knapr	at org.apache.derby.iapi.error.StandardException.newException(Unknown Source)
11:11	knapr	but it seems it is an error in the sql
11:11	knapr	but i odnt see how
11:11	knapr	i checked all the vectrs and they dont contain a parenthseis
11:35	durka	is there anywhere java looks for classes other than System/getProperty java.class.path, java.ext.dirs, java.endorsed.dirs?
11:40	duck1123	Can anyone think of a situation where you would want to add a url to your classpath that doesn't actually exist?
11:41	duck1123	I've been thinking of adding a version of add-classpath that verifies the url's existence and returns that url or nil
11:45	Chouser	duck1123: sounds like a good idea, if you're into the habit of using add-classpath
11:46	duck1123	I only very infrequently use it, but whenever I do, it bothers me that it only returns nil
11:52	leafw	is there any built-in fn to check if a symbol exists?
11:52	leafw	i.e. (exists? 'clojure.core/defn)
11:52	leafw	or similar
11:52	drewr	,(find-var 'clojure.core/defn)
11:52	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/defn
11:52	drewr	,(find-var 'clojure.core/defn-does-not-exist)
11:52	RSchulz	leafw: Symbols exist if you use them. In other words, symbols are not to be equated with variables or functions or anything else.
11:53	RSchulz	Probably you're asking if there is a definintion for a symbol.
11:53	drewr	clojurebot: Why didn't you give me nil?
11:53	clojurebot	why not?
11:53	leafw	RSchulz: right, a def.
11:54	Chousuke	hmm...
11:55	Chousuke	,(clojure.core/require 'hiredman.clojurebot-core)
11:55	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:55	hiredman	,(str nil)
11:55	Chousuke	I guess it ignores empty output. :/
11:55	hiredman	it does
12:06	RSchulz	hiredman: Did you get the suggestion from StartsWithK about making Clojurebot "respond with NOTICE" He posted it on the 3rd: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-01-03.html
12:09	leafw	if I have a variable #'my.space/that, how can one resolve to what it points to, without evaluating it? ns-resolve needs a symbol, and a symbol can't be constructed from #'... alone.
12:09	hiredman	shrug I have seen many bots use NOTICE for particular things, but most just use normal messages, e.g. lambdabot and javabot
12:09	Chouser	(.get '#foo), but there may be a better way.
12:10	leafw	Chouser: I hope so
12:10	Chouser	@'#foo
12:10	Chouser	is that better?
12:10	leafw	interesting
12:10	leafw	yes, at least that is not java -- and thus not liable to change soon
12:11	leafw	thanks
12:11	durka	now that does look like perl
12:11	durka	also, i would argue that at present clojure is more volatile than java
12:11	durka	and less afraid of breaking backwards compatibility
12:11	leafw	durka: I was referring to the java implementation of clojure.
12:12	duck1123	I tend to think that clojure has more in common with Ruby than Perl, IMO
12:13	duck1123	Ruby stole a lot of stuff from perl. At least as far as the funny syntax is concerned
12:14	RSchulz	hiredman: I don't know what it's all about, just that it was suggested and you weren't around at the time.
12:14	Chousuke	'#foo?
12:14	Chousuke	isn't that #'foo?
12:15	Chousuke	hm
12:20	rhickey	(deref (var foo))
12:24	triddell	what paste bin are people currently using? paste.lisp.org doesn't seem to be working.
12:26	RSchulz	What is Clojure trying to tell me here (the code in question hasn't been changed since the last time I worked on it, but this didn't happen then):
12:26	RSchulz	user=> (use 'tau.run.tle)
12:26	RSchulz	java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't embed object in code, maybe print-dup not defined: clojure.lang.LispReader$UnquoteSplicing@1f48262 (cli_helpers.clj:64)
12:27	RSchulz	Line 64 of cli_helpers.clj is a short macro definition
12:27	RSchulz	I'm running the latest SVN of Clojure Core and Contrib
12:28	triddell	I've got an issue that I'd appreciate a quick look at. I just pasted some sample working code that generates valid html here:
12:28	triddell	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98096/
12:29	triddell	But if I copy out the vector above the second for like this:
12:29	triddell	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/98097/
12:30	triddell	I don't get valid html. I'm missing something basic here about what is getting returned from these functions and the nested vector syntax of the compojure html function.
12:31	triddell	I don't want an element at the "thing" level but I can't figure out how to not have a vector at that level.
12:31	rhickey	RSchulz: you have ~@ outside of syntax-quote
12:31	triddell	I meant "comment out above"
12:31	RSchulz	That's definintely not the case. Let me put up a paste.
12:31	RSchulz	What's the preferred paste site?
12:32	RSchulz	Or a decent one, anyway?
12:32	triddell	I just used pocoo.org
12:32	triddell	which formats for clojure even
12:32	triddell	but doesn't post to the irc
12:32	rhickey	Rschulz: paste.lisp.org
12:32	RSchulz	Thanks.
12:33	triddell	RSchultz: paste.lisp.org wasn't working for me a few minutes ago
12:34	rhickey	when the lisppaste bot isn't logged in here, then just paste without a channel
12:34	triddell	ok, I was getting a blank page after the paste so I thought there may have been a bigger issue
12:35	rhickey	triddell: maybe so, I know the channel is a problem when no bot here
12:35	duck1123	ahh... so that's what the issue was. I got that the other day and concluded the same thing
12:35	RSchulz	Is there a paste site that's more reliable than paste.lisp.org? 'Cause it tends to eat my pastes and then do nothing.
12:35	hiredman	gist is way cool
12:36	duck1123	gist.github.com has clojure highlighting
12:36	Chousuke	is there any way to "group" gists?
12:36	RSchulz	It's kind of sluggish, but if it works well, I'll be patient.
12:36	Chousuke	so we could have some clojure group
12:36	hiredman	gist even has stuffs for emacs and vim to post buffers or selected text
12:37	triddell	If I paste there will someone look at my last paste above :-) This maybe basic issue has been killing me.
12:37	RSchulz	OK. This is the defmacro that elicits the "Can't embed object in code" exception: http://gist.github.com/43468
12:39	RSchulz	The diagnostic refences line 64, which is the line with "(defmacro sh" (the first line in the paste).
12:39	Chouser	RSchulz: what args do you pass it to get the error?
12:39	RSchulz	I get the error when I (use ...) a file that uses the one containing this macro, not when I invoke it.
12:40	rhickey	RSchulz: please paste complete things people can try
12:40	rhickey	that reproduce your problem
12:40	RSchulz	That's not really feasible, I don't think.
12:40	RSchulz	There's too much stuff.
12:40	rhickey	So we should figure out a small test case instead of you?
12:41	leafw	RSchulz: the "can't embed object in code" I have come across many times ... every time is a different error, so far.
12:41	rhickey	Is this what you intend the macr oto expand into?
12:41	rhickey	user=> (macroexpand '(sh 42))
12:41	rhickey	(user/shf (quote (42)))
12:41	RSchulz	What changed recently that could point me in the direction? As I said, without me changing any code, this broke in the past few days.
12:42	abrooks	RSchulz: If you use the git Clojure mirror, you can use git bisect to find the version pretty quickly.
12:43	RSchulz	I know nothing of Git other than it's yet another VC system.
12:43	triddell	It sounds like most of you are deep into another issue but here is an example of my issue at paste.lisp.org: http://paste.lisp.org/display/73126
12:43	RSchulz	If I evaluate that defmacro directly in the REPL, there's no complaint.
12:43	hiredman	triddell: (apply vectory :root {:version 1.0}
12:43	hiredman	(for ...
12:43	abrooks	RSchulz: The git Clojure mirror is here: http://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure/tree/master
12:43	RSchulz	Has anything changed w.r.t. to the :use clause of an (ns ...) form?
12:43	hiredman	vector not vectory
12:44	RSchulz	That's how I'm pulling in the file for which the diagnostic is produced.
12:44	hiredman	will put every thing in the same level vector
12:44	abrooks	RSchulz: Or you can manually bisect the revision history in Subversion...
12:44	RSchulz	I don't know what you're talking about, actually.
12:45	hiredman	,(apply vector :root {:version 1.0} '(:a :b))
12:45	clojurebot	[:root {:version 1.0} :a :b]
12:45	RSchulz	Gack. That's _not_ the macro on line 64. Sheesh...
12:46	cmvkk	heh
12:46	RSchulz	You're right. I commented out the syntax quote (for reasons I no longer remember).
12:46	RSchulz	Apologies.
12:46	triddell	hiredman: Thank you! That seems to do it.
12:48	Chouser	rhickey: I don't see how I can use a pair of sends in my case. http://paste.lisp.org/display/73127
12:56	rhickey	Chouser: when you send work action to fred, follow up with decrement action to fred
12:56	rhickey	e.g. ethel sends out 5 units of work, 5 decrements
12:57	Chouser	but I can't allow fred's decrement to happen before fred's watcher does its increment
12:58	rhickey	I don't fully understand what your code is doing, but it seems like ethel's watcher is creating new work for others, and increments remaining by the count of those others
12:58	rhickey	then decrements remaining by same amount?
12:59	rhickey	(old code I'm talking about here)
13:00	technomancy	I think I now understand the reason why the CLI launcher for clojure is so lousy; slime is so good that nobody launches it from the shell. =)
13:00	duck1123	you can launch clojure from the shell?
13:00	rhickey	what's a shell?
13:01	rhickey	:)
13:01	duck1123	M-x eshell
13:01	technomancy	duck1123: heh; you beat me to it.
13:01	Chouser	remaining starts at 1. fred sees he has one neighber ethel, incs remaining by 1 (to 2), decs remaining for himself (to 1), and is done.
13:01	hiredman	I launch it from the shell all the time
13:01	leafw	same here: ./fiji --main-class jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.lang.Repl
13:02	hiredman	but ^R Repl brings up the whole long command and I just hit enter
13:02	Chouser	watcher on ethel fires, checks min-sum, sees no change, decs remaining for herself (to 0), see the zero and signals done
13:18	rhickey	Chouser: so basically it would work fine if you didn't need to know when you were done? :)
13:19	Chouser	exactly!
13:19	rhickey	can't you just wait patiently?
13:20	Chouser	hm, the answer hasn't changed in a few seconds -- maybe it's close enough?
13:20	Chouser	I just added an example of the race condition: http://paste.lisp.org/display/73127#1
13:20	rhickey	Chouser: I understand the race
13:21	Chouser	good. I barely do.
13:21	Chouser	this is definitely stretching me.
13:21	mchurch	Curious question: What version of Clojure do you use, the Sept. 2008 release, or the SVN version?
13:21	rhickey	but it seems like this is a general problem of work-generation
13:21	Chouser	rhickey: yes, it seems likely to me.
13:21	rhickey	imagine it was distributed, that remaining counter would be bad
13:21	Chousuke	mchurch: the september release is ancient. there is a newer release. (I use SVN though)
13:22	Chouser	mchurch: is that a poll, or are you asking someone in particular? SVN here.
13:22	mchurch	It's a general poll.
13:22	rhickey	pre-svn here
13:22	vogelrn	svn
13:22	leafw	is there anything like a def-, or one has to set the flag manually in the meta?
13:22	mchurch	Chouser: you use SVN? I was using 09/08 but I am planning on moving over to the SVN version.
13:22	mchurch	rhickey: for what reason?
13:23	Chouser	rhickey: but agents are not actors partially because they aren't meant for distributed, right?
13:23	rhickey	mchurch: first I write it, then it goes in svn
13:23	technomancy	mchurch: it's pretty safe to use SVN; I haven't seen any breakage
13:23	Chousuke	mchurch: at least move to the newer release
13:23	rhickey	Chouser: sure, but the counter is still an icky part of what you're having to do
13:23	mchurch	rhickey: Oh. I get it. I'm slow today. :)
13:23	rhickey	trying to think of a more general solution
13:24	Chouser	rhickey: I agree! You have a better solution?
13:24	mchurch	drewr: is 'svn head' the newest SVN?
13:24	rhickey	since everyone doing something similar (generative work) will have the same issues
13:24	mchurch	drewr: I don't know anything about SVN. I'm emerging it right now (on a gentoo system).
13:24	mchurch	drewr: Halloway's book recommends 1146, but I think I'll go with the newest.
13:24	Chouser	mchurch: oh, might I recommend git-svn? Hm, maybe it's not worth it.
13:25	Chousuke	mchurch: HEAD refers to the latest commit in a branch
13:25	mchurch	Chousuke: What's git-svn? I'm slightly familiar with Git, though definitely not an expert.
13:25	Chousuke	git-svn is a way to use git as an SVN client.
13:25	Chouser	mchurch: git comes with an svn commend that works great for fetching from an SVN server.
13:25	Chouser	command
13:25	Chousuke	It's better than svn at it :P
13:26	Chouser	(modulo initial checkout workload)
13:26	mchurch	Chouser: Oh, cool.
13:26	technomancy	yeah, git-svn is definitely the best way to use svn
13:26	rhickey	Chouser: I imagine most solutions are like fork-join and the original non-pure version - the action creates the next action(s)
13:27	mchurch	Chouser: I was just going to use Halloway's SVN commands in his Clojure book, but if git-svn is better, then I'll use that.
13:27	technomancy	mchurch: or you could grab it straight from the github clone, which gets synced with SVN automatically
13:27	technomancy	clojurebot: github?
13:27	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:27	technomancy	clojurebot: git?
13:27	clojurebot	git is http://www.github.com
13:27	technomancy	heh.
13:27	Chouser	rhickey: are you thinking some new mechanism? perhaps an agent pool that triggers something when its workload hits zero?
13:27	mchurch	technomancy: Is the general consensus that Git is the pwn sauce compared to other VC systems?
13:27	technomancy	clojurebot: github is git://github.com/kevinoneill/clojure.git
13:27	clojurebot	Alles klar
13:28	Chouser	mchurch: I wouldn't assume everyone has that opinion.
13:28	Nafai	I'm pretty happy with git myself
13:28	rhickey	Chouser: that will have a similar problem, but at least could timeout with an answer
13:28	technomancy	mchurch: compared to centralized systems, no question. compared to other distributed systems, git has more momentum and a slightly more powerful internal model, but it's not head and shoulders better.
13:29	ehird	ooh, vcs wars
13:29	rhickey	Chouser: you may have to be willing to have some sort of (short) timeout with unknown work
13:29	ehird	so, uh, emacs or vi?
13:29	technomancy	ehird: lisp or vimscript? =)
13:29	ehird	:-)
13:29	rhickey	Chouser: waiting for quiescence
13:30	Chouser	technomancy: elisp or vimscript. fairer fight.
13:31	Chousuke	I don't know vimscript, but elisp wins :p
13:31	technomancy	Chouser: fair enough. still... =)
13:31	hiredman	vimscript is pretty horrid
13:32	gnuvince_	vimscript sucks ass
13:32	shoover	wow, search for clojure on github. there are pages of interesting projects
13:32	shoover	(2 pages)
13:33	leafw	how one does set doc string to defmulti?
13:34	leafw	i.e. any sugar way like defn or defmacro have?
13:35	technomancy	shoover: it's only the 24th-most-popular language though... we've got some work to do.
13:35	mchurch	technomancy: Where do you get the 24. from?
13:36	technomancy	mchurch: http://github.com/languages/Clojure
13:36	mchurch	technomancy: Being 24. within a year is awesome, IMO.
13:36	technomancy	definitely
13:36	Chouser	slightly over a year
13:36	technomancy	scheme and CL are 19th and 20th... just wait till we beat them. =)
13:37	mchurch	Ocaml is 23d, Haskell is 17., Java is 8.
13:38	technomancy	wouldn't have expected haskell to beat scheme
13:38	Nafai	technomancy: Why not?
13:39	mchurch	I wonder if the Ruby / Python bias signifies that version control systems (in general) are a bit intimidating to people without strong Sysadmit backgrounds (although I find Git pretty easy to use, much easier than previous VC systems).
13:39	technomancy	Nafai: I just only hear about haskell in the context of learning rather than actually building things.
13:39	Nafai	technomancy: I admit I don't hear much about Scheme at all
13:39	technomancy	well I've written a scheme; so maybe I'm biased
13:39	Nafai	technomancy: Perhaps because I pay attention to the Haskell community, but I would say the opposite
13:40	sh10151	I don't think Ruby and Python programmers are more likely to be systems administrators
13:40	sh10151	Perl programmers, yes
13:40	mchurch	(Ruby is 1st with 37% share, JavaScript is 2d with 25% share, and Python's 3d with 6% share)
13:40	Chousuke	ruby's rather big :/
13:40	Nafai	We use Python for nearly all of our system administration tasks here
13:40	technomancy	mchurch: I think it has more to do with the fact that github is built on rails and is the official host of rails.
13:40	Chousuke	I would have expected it to be about equal with python.
13:40	mchurch	technocracy: A friend of mine is building something pretty big (a statically-typed, ML/Haskell-inspired concurrency language) in Haskell
13:41	Nafai	Chousuke: I think that's merely a consequence of the Rails people jumping on the git wagon
13:41	Chousuke	Nafai: might be.
13:41	Nafai	Chousuke: The ruby community seems to follow rails
13:41	Chousuke	heh.
13:41	sh10151	Python has two DVCS systems -- Mercurial and Bazaar -- that would take away from someone using Git
13:41	mfredrickson	Rails developers cargo-cult?! I never! (says a former Rails dev)
13:41	Nafai	mfredrickson: :)
13:41	sh10151	They're implemented in Python so Python programmers will be more inclined to use them
13:42	Chousuke	cargo... rails... too many opportunities to make puns.
13:42	Nafai	sh10151: Unfortunately, it's not enough for me (being a programmer that uses Python). I find git more compelling
13:42	mchurch	sh10151: What's Git implemented in?
13:42	Nafai	mchurch: Primarily C
13:42	gnuvince_	C
13:42	mchurch	Chousuke: I prefer pwns, myself.
13:42	mfredrickson	I should joint "cp -r"hub.
13:42	technomancy	mchurch: a bit of perl
13:42	technomancy	mfredrickson: http://svnhub.com
13:43	technomancy	sh10151: that makes lots of sense
13:43	sh10151	I like Mercurial myself
13:43	mfredrickson	technomancy: lol
13:43	sh10151	but at work it's subversion
13:43	gnuvince_	I like Mercurial, but Git just has too much momentum to ignore it.
13:44	sh10151	Bazaar isn't bad either
13:44	sh10151	I don't really care about momentum, they all work more or less the same way
13:44	sh10151	it's like worrying about bash vs. tcsh vs
13:44	sh10151	ksh93 or whatever
13:45	technomancy	sh10151: yeah, but if you use bash and your collaborators use tcsh, you can still work together easily.
13:45	ehird	not really
13:45	ehird	you don't share your shell with other people.
13:45	technomancy	that's what I mean
13:46	technomancy	bzr looks nice, but the only project I've tried to use it on is Emacs, which is so big that it's basically unusable.
13:46	Chousuke	git has few weaknesses, and it's very famous.
13:46	Chousuke	technomancy: "big"? repo size?
13:47	technomancy	Chousuke: I don't have a bzr checkout here, but the .git directory is 204 MB
13:47	sh10151	it's the history that kills the Emacs bzr repo, I think
13:47	Chousuke	technomancy: mine is a bit larger.
13:47	technomancy	sh10151: definitely... but that's non-negotiable
13:49	technomancy	but for most projects I don't imagine it would be an issue
13:49	Chousuke	emacs' history goes back to time before my birth
13:49	Chousuke	and the git repo holds it all very nicely :P
13:49	mchurch	Chousuke: How old is emacs?
13:49	duck1123	still only 195 MB
13:49	mchurch	Chousuke: VC history wise, that is.
13:49	Chousuke	mchurch: Date: Thu Apr 18 00:48:29 1985 +0000
13:49	sh10151	but bazaar is GNU software so Bazaar will eventually replace CVS
13:49	sh10151	so let it be written
13:49	sh10151	so let it be done
13:50	sh10151	Chousuke: you're a young whippersnapper ain't ya
13:50	mchurch	Chousuke: Nice! Yeah, I was 1 then. I didn't think they had version control back in '85.
13:50	Chousuke	CVS getting replaced is only a good thing.
13:50	hiredman	clojurebot: rms?
13:50	clojurebot	Pardon?
13:50	sh10151	mchurch: They've had SCCS and RCS for a good long while
13:50	Chousuke	mchurch: well, there was RCS.
13:50	sh10151	also arch
13:51	mchurch	I've heard of CVS but not the others.
13:51	sh10151	I think arch is younger now that I think of it
13:51	danlarkin	we used RCS in college :-o
13:51	Chouser	CVS is built on RCS
13:51	Chouser	actually uses it internally
13:51	Chousuke	I did use RCS a bit at school too.
13:51	Chousuke	they taught it to us.
13:52	danlarkin	Chousuke: same
13:52	sh10151	I still use RCS for my own projects since it's generally already installed everywhere and Emacs plays nicely with it
13:52	Chousuke	later, with bigger school projects, they actually offered SVN access.
13:52	sh10151	"my own projects" being .emacs files and the like
13:52	Chousuke	I use git for those :)
13:52	technomancy	sh10151: emacs' VC interface is uniform no matter what backend you use with it.
13:53	Chousuke	since I have git installed in most places and setting up a git repo is easy and fast
13:53	grosours	hell
13:53	grosours	o
13:53	grosours	:D
13:53	technomancy	sh10151: that said, if you're used to commiting a single file at a time, it might be more effort to rework your habits.
13:53	sh10151	technomancy: yes but unless you use emacs 23 you have the wonderful choices of rcs, cvs, and sccs out of the box
13:53	danlarkin	grosours: greetings!
13:54	danlarkin	C-c v v
13:54	sh10151	danlarkin: C-x v v
13:54	danlarkin	burned into my muscle memory
13:54	technomancy	sh10151: oh? I didn't realize that; I thought 22 supported at least SVN.
13:54	danlarkin	sh10151: whoops!
13:54	technomancy	been running 23 too long, I guess. =)
13:54	sh10151	technomancy: there's some addon I think
13:54	sh10151	technomancy: psvn.el
13:54	sh10151	I just now installed 23
13:54	sh10151	haven't configured it the way I like it
13:55	technomancy	I've yet to see any UI nicer than magit.
13:55	duck1123	I try to build emacs from git every few days or so.
13:56	duck1123	mr update is great when you have a lot of projects you are tracking
13:56	sh10151	duck1123: I like a little more stability
13:57	duck1123	I only had one day when something broke on me from doing that. It's only been a couple of months though
13:58	technomancy	but there are internal changes, sure
13:58	sh10151	I run emacs with a crapton of add-ons
13:58	sh10151	slime, cedet, jde
13:58	sh10151	sometimes changes to emacs breaks those
13:59	duck1123	sh10151: have you gotten jde working with clojure?
14:00	sh10151	duck1123: You mean for documentation or something? I haven't bothered yet
14:00	duck1123	I installed it with the intention of trying that out, but never got around to it
14:00	sh10151	I use JDE for Java
14:00	sh10151	every time I try Eclipse I get burned
14:00	sh10151	or end up using Emacs anyway for shell scripts and SQL
14:01	sh10151	I think that adding Java stuff to slime contribs is a better way to go for Clojure
14:02	sh10151	a lot of what JDE does is based on syntactic analysis of Java
14:02	sh10151	and swank seems to have a much more principled design as far as using a subprocess is concerned
14:03	duck1123	I was hoping to use it only for the debugger integration, but don't know how well that'll work
14:04	sh10151	I think it might be superfluous
14:06	sh10151	not to be down on JDE but it is a complex beast of a program
14:08	Nafai	It just seemed too much effort to get JDE working, and there was too much advantage to the Java IDEs
14:09	sh10151	Nafai: I thought that too until Eclipse crashed on me
14:09	sh10151	Nafai: for the tenth time
14:09	sh10151	I actually only have five or six lines in my .emacs for JDE
14:10	sh10151	the main thing is making sure the dependencies are there, and I guess Emacs 23 might include both CEDET and elib
14:10	sh10151	of course the downside there is that they change names and APIs to include it in the emacs distribution
14:10	sh10151	thanks Richard. :)
14:29	mchurch	It appears the dotimes syntax has changed. What's the new syntax, and why was it changed?
14:30	mchurch	Edit: never mind. I can see why it was changed.
14:30	Chouser	mchurch: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/55213f2eb203ca39/9261c58c381f89b2
14:50	mchurch	How do I convert a var (as returned by resolve) to the value it contains?
14:51	Chouser	deref
14:51	Chouser	or the @ reader macro
14:52	mchurch	Chouser: Works beautifully. Thanks.
14:52	mchurch	Chouser: So are Vars similar to Refs, then? I guess this makes a lot of sense.
14:52	Chouser	Vars and Refs are two of the 4 reference types Clojure supports.
14:52	Chouser	The others are Agents and Atoms.
14:54	mchurch	Chouser: Ok, so what does (def x 5) do under the hood? Place #'user/x on an intern table somewhere, mapping to 5, right?
14:55	Chouser	mchurch: creates var with a root binding of 5, puts that in the 'user namespace under 'x
14:56	Chouser	documented here: http://clojure.org/vars
14:57	Chouser	'def' also attaches a bunch of metadata to the var
15:05	kotarak	Is there some interest in being able to use custom hierarchies in a multimethod? Currently the multimethods can only use the global hierarchy. I submitted a patch, which turns the default dispatch value in a :keyword arg. (defmulti name dispatch-fn :default dispatch-value). Similar one could now easily add a custom hierarchy: (defmulti name dispatch-fn :default dispatch-value :hierarchy my-hierarchy).
15:07	Chouser	kotarak: you saw http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=8 ?
15:08	Chouser	kotarak: that item is on the todo, bottom of "hot": http://richhickey.backpackit.com/pub/1597914
15:08	kotarak	Chouser: That's where I attached the patch for the default dispatch value.
15:09	technomancy	oh wow; only 2 things left on the list for a 1.0 release.
15:09	Chouser	ah, couldn't tell if that was you.
15:09	technomancy	they don't seem like tons of work either
15:10	kotarak	Ah. Ok. the per-defmulti hierarchies.
15:10	kotarak	That's something I'd really like to have.
15:11	technomancy	I thought Eclipse was the one that needed warming up. =)
15:11	kotarak	hehe
15:12	Chouser	kotarak: so though I've never felt the need for a non-default heirarchy, you've got a decent chance of getting it in.
15:13	technomancy	what's "ClojureScript" on the TODO? Clojure that compiles to JS?
15:13	Chouser	technomancy: yes
15:14	technomancy	that would be great.
15:14	hiredman	clojurebot: clojurescript?
15:14	clojurebot	clojurescript is Chouser's baby
15:14	kotarak	Chouser: I found it sometimes practical. And it's also some hygienic thing. I have somehow a bad feeling about messing around in the global hierarchy, although the keywords and symbols are qualified.
15:15	duck1123	Chouser: have you written any tutorials yet on how to use clojurescript?
15:15	technomancy	Chouser: I'm assuming you have taken a look at parenscript?
15:15	kotarak	Chouser: And I had some contorted use case where I would like one thing to derive from another in one defmulti but not in the other.
15:15	Chouser	duck1123: no, I'm stalling a bit on any kind of grand announcement or docs. It still requires a patch to Clojure to work properly.
15:15	Chouser	kotarak: ah, ok.
15:16	Chouser	technomancy: I have, though not recently.
15:17	technomancy	Chouser: it sounds like the goals are similar... I guess the main difference would just be immutability?
15:18	Chouser	yes, plus clojure-style host-language integration, and possibly the ability to port code between browser and server platforms more easily.
15:18	Chouser	not sure how often that last one would come up in reality, though.
15:18	technomancy	are you porting the STM then? that sounds like tons of work.
15:18	Chouser	no, JS is single-threaded, so no need or ability, really.
15:18	technomancy	oh, right.
15:19	Chouser	Vars work enough for normal def and binding usage
15:19	Chouser	but no agents, atoms, or refs currently.
15:19	technomancy	sure. that's pretty slick.
15:19	Chousuke	do you have defmacro working yet?
15:20	Chouser	it might need a stub implementation of ref and dosync for compatibility, not sure yet.
15:20	technomancy	what kinds of changes did you need to make to clojure?
15:20	Chouser	Chousuke: yeah, all of clojure.core just loads right up (not counting bits related to unsupported features)
15:21	Chouser	technomancy: mostly moving assumptions about running on Java out of core.clj and into RT.js
15:21	Chouser	sorry, into RT.java
15:21	technomancy	RT being runtime?
15:22	Chouser	so that I can put similar assumptions into rt.js
15:22	technomancy	you could build a really great "learn clojure" web site with a clojure that could run in-browser.
15:22	Chouser	technomancy: I assume so. src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java
15:22	kotarak	What would be better: capturing a hierarchy directly or capturing the Var of the hierarchy? The former wouldn't need a Var but would be closed. The latter would require a Var but would allow to add further derivations....
15:23	Chouser	kotarak: latter, I would think. The default heirarchy is a Var, right?
15:23	kotarak	Yes.
15:23	kotarak	That would be may preference as well.
15:23	kotarak	s/may/my
15:24	Chouser	technomancy: clojurescript depends on the .java implementation of the clojure reader and half the compiler.
15:24	Chouser	technomancy: so clojure code on the server can be translated to JS, but in order to get a repl in the browser it has to send strings to a JVM somewhere and get JS back.
15:25	kotarak	So maybe hierarchies could be required to be a Var? That would also simplify the use of derive. Currently non-standard hierarchies are returned by derive and one has to take care where to put them.
15:25	technomancy	Chouser: ah; I see.
15:27	technomancy	I don't feel like I have a very good grasp of the best way to organize code into namespaces. The way they work is pretty clear, but the why and how is eluding my grasp... is there any good reading material on this?
15:28	Chouser	I suppose once we can do clojure applets it could all be done client-side. Use JS to eval stuff (because it lets us load new JS code without special permission) and use Java for the compiling to JS.
15:28	mchurch	I believe I may have found a Clojure bug. Is this familiar to anyone? (= (symbol "/") "/") => false .
15:29	mchurch	Sorry. I mean (= (symbol "/") '/) => false
15:29	mchurch	Even though (symbol "/") seems to be '/ .
15:29	kotarak	I think / is special, no?
15:29	hiredman	,(= (symbol "/") /)
15:29	clojurebot	false
15:29	mchurch	It is. Unfortuantely, it's also a function (division).
15:30	mchurch	,(= (symbol "+") '+)
15:30	clojurebot	true
15:30	mchurch	,(= (symbol "/")
15:30	clojurebot	Eval-in-box threw an exception:EOF while reading
15:30	Chouser	mchurch: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=13
15:31	hiredman	ugh, that error message is way to friendly
15:31	technomancy	what's wrong with this? (.encode (java.net.URLEncoder.) "hey there")
15:32	technomancy	it says no matching ctor found
15:32	technomancy	clojurebot: ctor?
15:32	clojurebot	jar directory is -Djava.ext.dirs=$LIBS
15:32	mchurch	So I take it that '/ is not a valid symbol?
15:32	mchurch	,/
15:32	mchurch	,(apply / '(1 2))
15:32	clojurebot	1/2
15:32	Chouser	mchurch: sure it is, it's used for division
15:33	Chouser	,(= '/ (symbol nil "/"))
15:33	clojurebot	true
15:33	hiredman	technomancy: uh, static method?
15:33	hiredman	maybe
15:33	mchurch	Chouser: Ah. I guess it sees the '/' and tries to turn it into a package-qualified symbol?
15:33	technomancy	hiredman: oh, so it's a class-level thing rather than instance-level?
15:34	Chouser	technomancy: (java.net.URLEncoder/encode "hey there")
15:34	hiredman	,(java.net.URLEncoder/encode "Hey there")
15:34	clojurebot	Hey+there
15:34	technomancy	aha
15:34	Chouser	mchurch: I think that's right
15:34	technomancy	why doesn't (.encode java.net.URLEncoder "hey there") work?
15:34	hiredman	that is no longer accepted syntax
15:35	technomancy	oh... because classes aren't really objects in Java, are they...
15:35	Chouser	.foo is only for instance members, ClassName/foo is only for static members
15:36	ehird	why the separation?
15:36	technomancy	I keep expecting Java to be object-oriented... silly me. =)
15:36	Chouser	clojurebot: FAQ #1
15:36	clojurebot	FAQ #1 is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/8fc6f0e9a5800e4b
15:36	technomancy	ehird: because the designers of Java never heard of Smalltalk?
15:36	ehird	i mean, in clojure syntax
15:37	Chouser	ehird, technomancy: see FAQ #1 :-)
15:37	ehird	technomancy: perhaps they just have a weird sense of humour
15:38	hiredman	svn rev 1158;
15:38	technomancy	ehird: like deciding that "static" for some reason means "class-level"?
15:38	technomancy	"you keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means."
15:38	ehird	technomancy: :D
15:39	drewr	technomancy: ctor is constructor.
15:39	ehird	technomancy: maybe it's an analogy to electricity
15:39	technomancy	drewr: ah; thanks.
15:39	ehird	like... like... classes are parts of programs
15:39	ehird	which run on computers, which use electricity
15:41	hiredman	my jvm is a series of interconnected water wheels
15:41	danlarkin	ditto
15:41	danlarkin	omish 4 lyfe
15:41	hiredman	amish
15:41	danlarkin	sorry, perhaps that was mean
15:42	danlarkin	doh
15:42	technomancy	ok... I read that faq three times and it's not sinking in. I'll just let it slide for now and come back to it when I've done more with clojure.
15:42	hiredman	damn bucket overflow errors
15:44	Chousuke	hiredman: is clojurebot at github in sync with your local changes?
15:45	hiredman	Chousuke: it was until I stuck my finger in it a minute ago
15:45	hiredman	svn rev 1158
15:45	clojurebot	svn rev 1158; force instance member interpretation of (.method ClassName), e.g. (.getMethods String) works
15:45	hiredman	ah
15:46	hiredman	weird
15:46	technomancy	hiredman: is there any clojurebot shorthand for "what is %" (shorter than "clojurebot: %")
15:46	Chousuke	the code could use some cleanup I think
15:46	hiredman	very much so
15:46	Chousuke	there are some arguments name "strang" and _string and whatnot
15:47	technomancy	doc add-classpath
15:47	hiredman	technomancy: no
15:47	Chousuke	string is perfectly valid, isn't it? it doesn't collide with anything.
15:47	technomancy	hiredman: might be nice to come up with another prefix for lookups like you're using , for eval
15:47	Chouser	I sometimes use the word 'text' to get something succinct that is not 'str'
15:48	hiredman	Chousuke: I think I typed string, but vim highlighted it different?
15:49	Chousuke	that would be a bug in the vim clojure mode, right?
15:49	Chousuke	String is reserved, string is not.
15:49	hiredman	I am not sure if that was it or not
15:49	hiredman	but it seems like a likely reason why I would go with strang
15:54	kotarak	What was highlighted incorrectly?
15:55	hiredman	I dunno
15:55	hiredman	I am not saying it was
15:55	Chousuke	it's just fine in my vim though.
15:55	hiredman	fine it wasn't that
15:55	Chousuke	However I have an ancient version of vim-clojure
15:55	Chousuke	so it might have changed.
15:56	hiredman	clojurebot: apologize for me is <reply>mea culpa!
15:56	clojurebot	Ok.
15:56	kotarak	It should not have changed, but I might introduce random typos... So it might happen...
15:56	hiredman	clojurebot: apologize for me!
15:56	clojurebot	mea culpa!
15:57	mchurch	Does the clojurebot have Eliza-esque AI enabled?
15:57	mchurch	clojurebot: What is your name?
15:57	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:58	mchurch	clojurebot: What is the difference between a symbol and a keyword?
15:58	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:58	mchurch	(I actually know it, of course. Just wanted to see if the bot did.)
16:00	hiredman	clojurebot: what is the difference between java and clojure?
16:00	clojurebot	?
16:01	mchurch	clojurebot: Does P = NP?
16:01	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:01	mchurch	,(= p np)
16:01	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: p in this context (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:01	mchurch	,(= 'p 'np)
16:01	clojurebot	false
16:01	mchurch	We have a verdict!
16:02	technomancy	good to know
16:03	mchurch	,(let [p (rand-int 2) np (rand-int 2)] (= p np))
16:03	clojurebot	true
16:03	mchurch	A more rigorous approach...
16:03	kotarak	So much fuzz about P = NP, and then all you have to do is to ask Deep Thought - eh - clojurebot to get the answer. (Which is false btw, and not 42!)
16:03	mchurch	,(* 6 9)
16:03	clojurebot	54
16:04	mchurch	clojurebot: You're doing it wrong!
16:04	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc�al?
16:29	duck1123	nobody writes jokes in base 13
16:30	kotarak	or binary for that matter. :)
16:32	gnuvince_	duck1123: it's be hard; "There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand base 13, those who don't, those who don't are either way, people who don't believe in numbers, the Poles, ..."
16:32	gnuvince_	it'd*
16:32	gnuvince_	don't care*
16:49	triddell	What does this data structure mean? (([:title Foo] [:title bar]) ([:title Fiz] [:title buz])) .. a list containing two lists which each contain two vectors?
16:50	Chousuke	yeah.
16:51	Chouser	though it's likey it's a seq of 2 seqs, each containing two MapEntry's
16:51	triddell	I need to add another vector to this but to do so I also need to put it in list (like the other vectors.) I'm not sure how to do this...
16:52	Chousuke	that depends where you need to add it to.
16:53	triddell	these nested vectors get turned into html by compojure, but if I put in a vector which is not in a list the nested vectors get returned in their lists
16:54	triddell	I think at the top level like this: (([:title Foo] [:title bar]) ([:title Fiz] [:title buz]) ([:new vector))
16:54	Chousuke	I don't know how compojure works and I have no clue what you're trinyg to accomplish :/
16:54	Chousuke	... trying*
16:55	triddell	I tried conj but I can't seem to get it in a list as well
16:55	Chouser	lists and seqs grow on the left side, not the right. you're sure you need it added on the right side?
16:56	Chousuke	it looks like you should be looking at some other way to generate that structure than simply conj'ing :/
16:56	Chousuke	looking for*
16:58	triddell	yes, I think that is part of my issue... it works if I put it on the left... but these vectors create the xml... [:title "Foo"] creates <title>Foo</title>... and I'm generated j2ee xml deployment descriptors (which are picky :-)
17:10	kotarak	What happens if I don't hold on to an SQL Statement, while processing the result set? Might the Statement be gc'd closing the result set under my fingers?
17:10	hiredman	uh
17:15	Chouser	kotarak: generally if you've got a seq going over an underlying collection, the seq will keep a reference to the collection, thus preventing GC
17:20	kotarak	Chouser: I'm thinking about the following flow: (-> (.prepareStatement conn sql) set-parameters .executeQuery resultset-seq) The seq holds on to the result set, but not the Statement. When the Statement is .close'd it also closes the ResulSet.
17:20	kotarak	Hmm... But it's seems that the latter also holds a reference to the Statement.
17:28	triddell	Chousuke and Chouser: I was able to use (first) on the initial collection along with an appropriate conj. thanks for the help
17:32	danlarkin	I understand why I can't use a sorted-map with keys of different types, but can I count on hash-map behaving like sorted-map in that case?
17:33	danlarkin	I am assuming I can't
17:35	triddell	Do we have a pretty print library for formatting xml? I remember it coming up but I just search the irc log and the board but didn't find anything conclusive.
17:35	danlarkin	and if I do want the properties of a sorted-map but have keys of different types what are my options? (loop) with (apply hash-map (take 2 lst))?
17:40	RSchulz	danlarkin: You can supply the comparator when you create the sorted map. Then it's up to you to define a total ordering on the key values.
17:41	RSchulz	(doc sorted-map-by)
17:41	clojurebot	keyval => key val Returns a new sorted map with supplied mappings, using the supplied comparator.; arglists ([comparator & keyvals])
17:42	danlarkin	RSchulz: d'oh!
17:42	danlarkin	RSchulz: thanks :)
17:43	RSchulz	No problem.
17:43	RSchulz	I'm trying to find the pretty-printer I use. That is, find where I got it from (I didn't write it).
17:48	RSchulz	Looks like it came from here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/79d07b898b2a0fde/
17:48	RSchulz	The second post in that thread has an attachment, pprint.clj
17:49	RSchulz	Yeah. That's the one I'm using.
17:52	rapido	what's clojure's conflict resolution with transactions?: how does it decide which transaction to roll-back when there is a conflict?
17:53	rhickey	rapido: older transaction wins
17:53	rhickey	that's just a simple first-cut heuristic
17:54	rapido	older <- using a logical clock?
17:54	triddell	RSchultz: thanks, that one looks like it's for clojure code though... I'm looking for one for xml... Looks like I might be able to do it using the jdk (http://faq.javaranch.com/java/HowToPrettyPrintXmlWithJava) but I was hoping simple library function was available from contrib or something
17:55	rhickey	rapido: yes, logical timestamps drive the transaction system
17:55	rapido	is it possible to allow user code to decide which transactions wins? allowing more sophisticated consensus algorithms?
17:55	RSchulz	triddell: If you misspell my nick, I don't get chimed when it appears... Does your IRC client have tab-completion of nicks?
17:55	rhickey	rapido: not right now. And probably not until I see a demonstrated need
17:55	RSchulz	Ah. Sorry. First of all, sorty for confusing your request with dan larkin's
17:56	RSchulz	Secondly, sorry for not reading carefully enough to see the actual question!
17:59	rapido	rhickey: the use case for a sophisticated consensus algorithms is managing source code
17:59	triddell	RSchulz: ah, it does... but I didn't know it... didn't do much irc before clojure gave me a reason... I'm using Pidgin and it probably does all kinds of cool things I'm oblivious of.
17:59	rhickey	rapido: I don't see how that relates to in-memory STM
18:01	rapido	rhickey: yeah, we don't need multi-core to edit our source code :)
18:02	rapido	rhickey: i've got a serious use case: what about smooth transaction 'degration'?
18:02	rapido	not all or nothing
18:03	rapido	but 'try to get all the resources' - but smoothly degrade when there are less
18:04	rapido	change 10000's of items in one transaction
18:04	rapido	if the transaction manager says: 'i can do that for 9000 items' - go for that.
18:05	rhickey	rapido: I don't see that as viable
18:05	rhickey	if it truly doesn't matter to the app, they can put a knob on the number of items
18:05	rhickey	an admin setting
18:06	rhickey	at the application level
18:06	rapido	rhickey: but what about runtime interactions - you can't know everything statically
18:07	rhickey	it will be just like any other tunable thing - you try it with your workload
18:07	rhickey	but dropping some items from a transaction destroys the meaning of transaction
18:08	technomancy	clojurebot: classpath
18:08	clojurebot	classpath is (get (System/getProperties) "java.class.path")
18:08	rhickey	there's no way a TM can understand what is important and what not
18:08	rapido	rhickey: there is a chance then that your long running transaction will rollback indefinitely (starvation)
18:08	technomancy	,(doc add-classpath)
18:09	rapido	i've seen that happen in production environments
18:09	clojurebot	------------------------- clojure.core/add-classpath ([url]) Adds the url (String or URL object) to the classpath per URLClassLoader.addURL
18:09	rhickey	(System/getProperty "java.class.path") is simpler
18:09	technomancy	clojurebot: classpath is (System/getProperty "java.class.path")
18:09	clojurebot	Alles klar
18:09	Chousuke	technomancy: use just (doc foo), not ,(doc foo)
18:09	technomancy	why would add-classpath be a no-op in slime when it works from clojure.lang.Script?
18:09	Chousuke	better formatting that way
18:10	technomancy	Chousuke: ah; nice
18:11	rapido	rhickey: what if the STM throws an exception with the exact conflicts - giving you a chance to retry?
18:12	rhickey	rapido: these are just theoretical situations, I don't see a real need for this
18:13	rapido	rhickey: i believe highly concurrent systems will surface the need - but we have to wait for +10000 cores probably :)
18:13	technomancy	shouldn't add-classpath throw an exception or something if it's unable to add something to the classpath?
18:15	rapido	i have had too many encounters with 'strange' sybase runtime performance
18:15	rapido	i want more control
18:15	rapido	or at least
18:16	rhickey	rapido: why don't you wait until you have a real problem to solve?
18:16	rapido	deterministic transaction behaviour
18:17	rhickey	deterministic transaction behavior sounds impossible
18:18	rapido	rhickey: sure it sound impossible - but the current databases api's should give me more control than they are giving me now
18:19	rapido	i guess i'm more fanatic than you are :)
18:19	hiredman	technomancy: I am pretty sure stuff you add with add-classpath does not get added to the class path system property
18:20	technomancy	hiredman: does that mean there's more than one classpath?
18:20	hiredman	so if you are using that to judge if the add fails or not, that is not conclusive
18:20	rhickey	rapido: people can always manage memory/records/locks themselves, and there will always be a tradeoff choosing a general-purpose GC/DB/STM
18:20	technomancy	hiredman: I'm also using java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError to determine if it failed. =)
18:20	technomancy	that is, I see that error when I require something that I know I've added to the classpath
18:21	hiredman	ok, carry on then
18:21	technomancy	hiredman: but that's good to know. I'm finding a lot of stuff about the classpath confusing; can your recommend somewhere I can read up about it?
18:21	Chouser	technomancy: the javadoc for classloader is a good start
18:22	technomancy	so anyway, the System/getProperty method of determining the classpath is incorrect?
18:22	rapido	rhickey: i've got a different idea of how to do transactions more deterministic
18:22	technomancy	or correct in a way that's useless?
18:22	rhickey	rapido: go for it!
18:22	technomancy	how do you find the real classpath?
18:22	hiredman	I know nothing about classpath
18:22	rapido	rhickey: i've already done it :)
18:22	rapido	not in clojure, yet.. :(
18:23	rapido	of course - the concept of 'deterministic transactions' is language agnostic
18:25	rapido	however, i've created my own dsl that targeted to allow it.
18:25	rapido	that <- that is
18:26	Nafai	rapido: New language? :)
18:28	rapido	Nafai: you wouldn't say from looking at enchilada at first sight, but it is especially crafted to allow for distributed deterministic mvcc
18:29	Nafai	rapido: nods Makes sense
18:29	Nafai	rapido: I meant new language for implementation :)
18:29	technomancy	so do you have to use swank-clojure-extra-classpaths rather than add-classpath when you're using slime?
18:30	rapido	Nafia: i have to confess, i would have probably have chosen clojure as enchilada's backend, if i would knew about it 1.5 years ago
18:30	Nafai	clojure is pretty nice, the big I've been exposed to it
18:30	rapido	still, the scala implementation is pretty satisfactory
18:30	Nafai	scala seems too complicated :)
18:31	rapido	Nafai: it is- but i got spoiled by haskell's typing ;)
18:32	Chouser	I think it's interesting to condier that transactions aren't built very deeply into clojure. provide your own ref, agent, and dosync, and you have have native-quality api for you own semantics.
18:32	rapido	i do believe typing should be a macro
18:33	rapido	of course, code should be a first-class object
18:33	Nafai	Yes
18:35	rapido	Chouser: immutability helps a lot
18:37	rapido	Chouser: i do think that it is sheer genius that rhickey has married STM with immutability - STM is orthogonal to immutability
18:39	rapido	got to go - it's late here in the netherlands
18:39	Nafai	rapido: Good to see you again
18:40	Chousuke	technomancy: add-classpath works
18:41	technomancy	Chousuke: I haven't been able to isolate when it works and when it breaks.
18:41	Chousuke	it has always worked for me though :/
18:42	technomancy	how do you check it if you can't trust System/getProperty?
18:42	technomancy	just require something and see if it blows up?
18:43	Chousuke	probably.
18:43	hiredman	the answer is: stop using add-classpath
18:43	technomancy	hiredman: and?
18:43	hiredman	clojurebot: ext?
18:43	clojurebot	context is the essence of humor
18:43	Chousuke	hiredman: it's fine in the repl.
18:43	hiredman	clojurebot: ext dir?
18:43	clojurebot	Huh?
18:44	hiredman	clojurebot: jar directory?
18:44	clojurebot	jar directory is -Djava.ext.dirs=$LIBS
18:45	technomancy	hiredman: so adding to the classpath at runtime is verboten?
18:45	Chousuke	nah. just not good for anything but experimentation, really.
18:45	technomancy	I want to be able to specify my classpath in one place.
18:45	technomancy	if I can't do it at runtime, then I have to maintain two separate lists, one for launching my server from the command-line, and one for slime.
18:47	hiredman	technomancy: I believe slime auto adds jars from ~/.clojure to the class path
18:47	Chousuke	I wonder if there is some way to globally set properties for JVMs
18:47	hiredman	so just add ~/.clojure to java.ext.dirs
18:47	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, but I have to keep the jars bundled with my source repo, or that's one more thing that I have to manually synchronize
18:48	hiredman	ln -s sourcerepo/some.jar ~/.clojure/
18:48	technomancy	I guess I could just make slime a prerequisite to running my code, but that's kind of sad.
18:48	hiredman	oh
18:48	hiredman	I see
18:51	hiredman	you are a programmer, there are N+1 ways to solve this, pick one
18:51	technomancy	hiredman: it seems like launching things from the shell is just not worth the trouble.
18:51	technomancy	I really don't understand why add-classpath is so bad/unreliable though.
18:52	technomancy	is it just a limitation of the JVM?
18:52	technomancy	I guess I could provide a shell script that just launches Emacs. =)
18:52	technomancy	bundle a copy of slime with the checkout...
19:29	technomancy	wow, nice graph of the mailing list traffic: http://hughw.blogspot.com/2009/01/clojure-uptick.html
19:31	vogelrn	I think that standard keeps moving forward as it gets more popular :P
19:32	technomancy	probably true.
19:32	technomancy	"before the book comes out" is probably good enough for me.
19:41	sulo	hi, is there a tutorial vor clojure around? on the webpage i couldn't find one
19:41	sulo	s/vor/for/
19:41	achim_p	hi all!
19:42	achim_p	is there an easy way to automatically namespace-qualify a data structure that's read?
19:42	achim_p	i'd like to do some source code processing and read clojure code like "(ns foo) bar ::baz myspace/bar (in-ns 'foo2) bar ..." and i'd like to have "(ns foo) foo/bar :foo/baz myspace/bar (in-ns 'foo2) foo2/bar" in the end
19:44	danlarkin	sulo: rich has produced some great videos
19:44	achim_p	sulo: there are some people posting tutorials to their blogs
19:44	achim_p	http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/16/pcl-clojure
19:44	achim_p	http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/12/12/on-lisp-clojure
19:44	danlarkin	sulo: blip.tv
19:44	danlarkin	sulo: errr clojure.bliip.tv I mean
19:44	aking	sulo: There's the book (in beta): http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure and wikibooks: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming
19:45	danlarkin	well apparently I can't type tonight, but you get the idea
19:48	duck1123	does anyone know if clojureql is usable yet? I'd ask Lau if he were around
19:48	technomancy	is that the one that gives lazy seqs from SQL?
19:49	duck1123	I'm getting sick of hacking together queries with format
19:49	duck1123	it's the one that constructs queries in clojure, don't know what else it does
19:56	duck1123	I think I'm going to hold off for a bit longer
20:42	danlarkin	ok so I'm a bit confused, this code: http://dpaste.com/105800/ fails, but if I change resolved-pats on line 14 to initialize to a vector then it works fine
20:44	hiredman	urm
20:44	hiredman	try '(#"^list/$" "list")
20:45	hiredman	or (list #"^list/$" "list")
20:45	hiredman	hmmm
20:45	hiredman	no its a macro
20:46	hiredman	what does "fails" mean?
20:46	Chouser	nobody ever answers all the questions on the macro-help form.
20:48	danlarkin	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: LazilyPersistentVector
20:49	hiredman	,([0] 1 1)
20:49	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to: LazilyPersistentVector (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:50	hiredman	,([0] 1)
20:50	clojurebot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
20:51	danlarkin	Hmm
20:52	danlarkin	so somewhere it's getting evaluated
20:52	hiredman	must be the ordered map function
20:53	danlarkin	changing it to hash-map gives the same error
20:53	hiredman	I would sprinkle around some debuginging prinlns
21:00	danlarkin	well if I the patterns macro to a function and then call it with vectors instead of lists then it all works out
21:01	danlarkin	I suppose I should just do that, anyway, since it's idiomatic to use literal vectors for this type of thing in clojure?
21:01	hiredman	shrug
21:03	danlarkin	thanks for helping though
21:17	wwmorgan	I want to call a function that blocks, waits for a message from another thread, and then returns that message in the calling thread. What's the best way to do that?
21:40	Chouser	I'd look at java.util.concurrent -- perhaps a semaphore
21:47	danlarkin	got another puzzle! http://paste.lisp.org/display/73155
21:48	duck1123	can it be assumed that any code that works with map should work with filter? (aside from having vastly different results)
21:52	cmvkk	there's not a quick and easy way to spin off some looping function into its own thread, is there?
21:52	cmvkk	besides, for example, send-offing the function to an agent?
21:54	hiredman	there are
21:55	lambda	cmvkk: functions implement runnable so you can create your own thread, set timers with functions
21:55	hiredman	etc
21:56	cmvkk	i was hoping for something that didn't involve messing with java interop but oh well :)
21:56	hiredman	java interop is very simple and natural with clojure
21:57	cmvkk	oh i know, and i could do this
21:57	duck1123	java api's, however, are not
21:57	cmvkk	actually i don't know much java so that's a problem
21:57	cmvkk	"wait, i need to make a what object? is this an interface i have to implement?"
21:57	danlarkin	So is this a bug, or am I doing something wrong: (:name (sorted-map-by (comparator <) :name "Dan")) throws java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword
21:58	hiredman	danlarkin: < expects numbers
21:59	hiredman	clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
21:59	hiredman	^-
21:59	vogelrn	probably use like
21:59	danlarkin	gasp
21:59	danlarkin	ok how about this: (:name (sorted-map-by (comparator =) :name 5)) returns nil
21:59	vogelrn	whatever java string compare is on the name function that acts on keywords
22:02	lambda	has anyone here used terracotta with clojure?
22:03	vogelrn	actually danlarkin: shouldn't you just be able to use regular sorted-map for that?
22:03	danlarkin	vogelrn: yes, it was just a simplified example though
22:04	danlarkin	ok, well ((sorted-map-by (comparator <) 4 5) 4) returns 5 so it's probably user error
22:05	hiredman	woa
22:05	hiredman	here is a trip
22:06	hiredman	,(::name (sorted-map-by (comparator =) :name 5))
22:06	clojurebot	5
22:06	hiredman	,(:name (sorted-map-by (comparator =) :name 5))
22:06	hiredman	^- nil, which clojurebot doesn't send
22:10	danlarkin	yeahhhh ...what?
22:12	hiredman	danlarkin: it works with ::name but not :name
22:13	danlarkin	hiredman: yeah that's what I'm whatting about
22:13	hiredman	I did not see the "it works with ::name" bit
22:13	Chouser	,((comparator =) :name :name)
22:13	clojurebot	-1
22:14	duck1123	it must be the night for odd clojure behavior. I have a fn that was throwing an error, but if I pull part of it out into it's own fn, the error goes away
22:15	hiredman	,((comparator =) ::name :name)
22:15	clojurebot	0
22:15	cmvkk	,((comparator =) ::name ::name)
22:15	clojurebot	-1
22:15	danlarkin	mind is boggled
22:16	hiredman	Chouser: explain!
22:16	cmvkk	what does comparator do anyway? the api doc is less than helpful
22:20	vogelrn	from what I understand,
22:20	Chouser	comparator wants predicate that defines order, like < or >
22:20	vogelrn	comparator takes a function that returns true/false and returns a java comparator
22:20	Chouser	vogelrn: jinx
22:20	Chouser	:-
22:20	Chouser	:-)
22:21	cmvkk	so is this backwards from what it's supposed to be or what?
22:21	cmvkk	(comparator =) returns -1 where = returns true, and 0 where = returns false.
22:22	Chouser	= isn't defining order. it's silly to use with comparator
22:22	vogelrn	yeah
22:22	cmvkk	heh, well there's that too
22:22	vogelrn	like this
22:22	hiredman	,((comparator (fn [& _] true)) 1 1)
22:22	clojurebot	-1
22:22	hiredman	,((comparator (fn [& _] true)) 1 0)
22:22	clojurebot	-1
22:23	hiredman	,(::name (sorted-map-by (comparator (fn [& _] true)) :name 5))
22:23	cmvkk	I see what's going on. if you use it with > or < you want instances of true to represent inequality.
22:23	vogelrn	this might be backwards
22:23	vogelrn	,(. (comparator #(pos? (. %1 compareTo %2))) compare "blah" "abah")
22:23	clojurebot	-1
22:23	hiredman	,(:name (sorted-map-by (comparator (fn [& _] true)) :name 5))
22:24	danlarkin	,(:name (sorted-map-by (fn [& _] true) :name 5))
22:29	vogelrn	yeah, to sort, say, strings you would use
22:29	vogelrn	,(sort (comparator #(neg? (. %1 compareTo %2))) '("blah" "abah" "aasdf" "fasdgs"))
22:29	clojurebot	("aasdf" "abah" "blah" "fasdgs")
22:31	danlarkin	So I wonder, is it possible to write a comparator that will just preserve insertion order, but also allow (get)ing on the map
22:32	vogelrn	hmmm
22:32	Chouser	by the way, all functions support Comparator directly now, so you can just say: (sort #(neg? (. %1 compareTo %2)) '("blah" "abah" "aasdf" "fasdgs"))
22:32	Chouser	,(sort #(neg? (. %1 compareTo %2)) '("blah" "abah" "aasdf" "fasdgs"))
22:32	clojurebot	("aasdf" "abah" "blah" "fasdgs")
22:32	vogelrn	ah, cool
22:33	Chouser	which I think means 'comparator' is completely useless. :-)
22:33	duck1123	if dissoc returns a new copy, why would I get the error: Can't remove struct key
22:33	vogelrn	well, you might want the comparator for your own uses
22:34	vogelrn	for java interop, since I doubt that would work with java methods :P
22:34	Chouser	,(instance? java.util.Comparator (fn [a b]))
22:34	clojurebot	true
22:35	hiredman	,(identity nil)
22:35	clojurebot	nil
22:35	hiredman	excellent
22:36	vogelrn	hmmm, so it assumes all functions are comparators then?
22:36	Chouser	all Clojure functions are Comparators.
22:37	vogelrn	yeah, because of nil/non-nil
22:38	danlarkin	vogelrn: because java.util.Comparator is a java Interface, and clojure functions implement that interface
22:38	vogelrn	yeah I know but I was saying why it's right to do that
22:39	danlarkin	oh, sorry :-o
22:39	vogelrn	I think...
22:39	hiredman	man, git is freaky
23:43	danlarkin	aw java.util.regex doesn't support named groups? :'(
23:47	durka	apparently not http://softwaredevscott.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A9E939F7373F3B7!543.entry
23:48	arohner	slightly offtopic, but does anyone know how to make git produce an svn-compatible diff?
23:48	arohner	it's on topic because I want to submit a patch for clojure :-)
23:49	danlarkin	arohner: I think there's a git-svn diff or something, isn't there?
23:49	arohner	yes, but I'm using the git mirror on github.com
23:49	danlarkin	Ohhh :-/
23:50	hiredman	svn rev 1195
23:50	clojurebot	svn rev 1195; fixed typo in add-watcher docs, explained var watchers