#clojure – 2008-12-23

2008-12-23

00:08	replaca	Q: Is there a way to call clojure functions from Java without :gen-class?
02:40	bOR_	24th on the mud connector really isn't bad =)
02:41	bOR_	geas, for example, is also a small mud.
02:41	bOR_	with fanatical players :)
02:41	bOR_	and that's 16th
02:41	bOR_	we should be able to get to sub20's as well
02:46	bOR_	eek.
02:46	bOR_	wrong channel. sorry!
03:59	hml	does clojure have opengl bindings?
03:59	hml	on ubuntu linux amd64
04:18	hoeck	hml: you would use the bindings from https://jogl.dev.java.net/
05:25	bOR_	downloaded the cvs version, but when i try to ant it, I run into the following error
05:25	bOR_	[javac] Compliance level '1.4' is incompatible with target level '1.5'. A compliance level '1.5' or better is required
05:26	bOR_	the internets are a bit vague about it. they suggest either to change some things in the build.xml (but that just generates a new error), or do something different with eclipse
05:26	bOR_	which I'm not using.
05:26	bOR_	any ideas? :)
05:33	hoeck	bOR_: an old java version??
05:34	bOR_	1.6.0_11
05:34	bOR_	not sure if that is old, actually.
05:35	bOR_	ah. that seems to be the latest version
06:14	hoeck	bOR_: and ant -diagnostics points to the right java version??
06:16	bOR_	hah. thanks, will check.
06:16	bOR_	(also busy with lunch)
06:16	leafw	bOR_: echo $JAVA_HOME ... may be set to somewhere else.
06:17	bOR_	that seems to be the problem indeed.
06:17	bOR_	java.runtime.version : 1.4.2
06:17	bOR_	it's pointing to that.
06:19	bOR_	no explicit java_home set.
06:20	kogu	hi, is there a limit to memoize caching?
06:22	kogu	memoize does not seem to be working if argument is a list
06:24	dhaya	kogu: No restrictions as far as I can see. what does the error say?
06:24	kogu	there is no error, but there is no speed improvement
06:25	kogu	i have a function which accept a list argument, the list has 216 diffrent possibilites,
06:25	kogu	and that function will be called a lot, but with only with those 216 diffrent possibilites
06:25	kogu	ofcourse the list is created everytime
06:27	hoeck	kogu: can you paste your code to lisppaste?
06:27	kogu	sure thing
06:28	lisppaste8	kogu pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72562
06:28	dhaya	order is important for lists. if you try sets as arguments it might work like you expect.
06:29	kogu	in the code, im creating a new list with 3 items, each of them ranging from 0-5, so total possible combinations is 666
06:29	kogu	from (0 0 0) -> (5 5 5)
06:37	kogu	do the refs have to be same?
06:37	dhaya	Well, memoize does work on lists. I tried by adding a (Thread/sleep 2000) in one of the return values in the function. It could be that difference in memoized speed is not noticeable in your case?
06:39	kogu	hmmm, perhaps
06:40	kogu	ty for your time
06:40	dhaya	np
06:41	kogu	:)
06:47	hoeck	it seems that eval-roll just isn't expensive enough to be worth memoized
06:54	kogu	yep, seems that way
06:54	kogu	i need to find something else then
06:54	dhaya	anybody has any experience using redshank? does it work with clojure-mode?
06:58	dhaya	well, i am not even sure if i want that. seems too specific to CL.
07:19	bOR_	nice. got ant compiling the latest version of clojure, after adding a path and a java_home to my .cshrc
07:20	bOR_	time to simulate :)
07:21	rhickey	bOR_: when you get a chance, could you run your original, repeatably failing code, with svn 1181?
07:22	bOR_	just about to do so.
07:23	rhickey	great - it sure looks like you were just hitting the 32-bit limit
07:23	bOR_	thanks for the help there indeed.
07:23	bOR_	was there any way I could have avoided hitting that limit?
07:24	bOR_	Timothy is after it.
07:24	bOR_	reading his post now.
07:25	rhickey	It shouldn't have been AtomicInteger - all variables for timestamps are longs. It was left over from some old testing of Terracotta, which at the time supported AtomicInteger but not AtomicLong
07:25	bOR_	my atypical use of keeping track of a years.
07:28	bOR_	nice to have contributed in some way to clojure :).
07:37	Chousuke	rhickey: did you notice Meikel's revised patch for the with-open binding issue?
07:38	rhickey	Chousuke: not yet
08:26	gnuvince	Good morning
08:29	rhickey	hi
08:29	gnuvince	Last day before vacations
08:29	gnuvince	I'm gonna need to find something to do
08:36	gnuvince	I was asking yesterday, is there a Java library to unpack binary data? Similar to Python's struct.unpack?
08:40	bOR_	http://code.google.com/p/javastruct/
08:40	bOR_	that one?
08:42	gnuvince	Seems like it could work.
08:42	bOR_	no experience with it, just a google.
08:42	bOR_	but it does have an unpack in it.
08:42	gnuvince	yeah
08:45	bOR_	good luck with it :)
08:53	leafw	rhickey: a few months back you added float/vmean etc for numeric primitives. Where are they now?
08:54	rhickey	leafw: in svn history, replaced by more generic primitive support, areduce/amap
08:55	leafw	rhickey: thanks.
08:58	leafw	rhickey: by the way, the clojure book by Stu is freakin' great. If there is currently an explosion of beginners, it's bound to get exacerbated.
09:27	Chouser	leafw: hopefully after reading the book, they'll be well-informed beginners
09:27	rhickey	where is clojurebot? relying on it to broadcast commits here
09:30	RSchulz	,(println "Who, me worry?")
09:30	Chousuke	rhickey: hiredman said the computer hosting clojurebot had a HD crash
09:30	RSchulz	Ouch.
09:31	RSchulz	I guess we'll find out if he keeps good backups...
09:31	duck1123	didn't he say that was on slicehost?
09:35	RSchulz	I don't know what that is. A Java hosting service?
09:36	duck1123	I know he said clojurebot was running on his webserver, and I think he said he was using slicehost to host webpages.
09:37	duck1123	I assume they would keep backups,
09:43	RSchulz	If it's running on a commercial hosting service, how did a drive failure bring it down? Surely they have redundancy as well as backups?
09:49	duck1123	I don't understand why, if memory is so cheap, that heap space for jvm application hosting should be so expensive.
09:52	Chouser	SVN 1182: with-open accepts multiple bindings, patch from Meikel Brandmeyer
09:53	Chouser	nice.
10:04	Chousuke	it accepted them before too; it just never closed them :)
10:05	duck1123	Would that perform better than simply nesting with-open forms?
10:06	duck1123	or is it just that it looks better?
10:07	Chouser	looking at the patch, it appears to expand to identical (or nearly) code as nested with-open forms.
10:07	lisppaste8	drewr pasted "i/o in a transaction" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72568
10:08	drewr	This might be a stupid thing to do, but I don't understand this error.
10:09	Chouser	but as Chousuke said, it silently closing only the first.
10:09	drewr	"foo" gets written to the log, so w is obviously the right type when the macro is expanded.
10:09	Chouser	it WAS silently closing only the first. now it's all better.
10:09	drewr	But then (.close <String>) happens?
10:09	Chousuke	drewr: all bindings in with-open have to be closeable
10:09	Chousuke	drewr: use let for normal bindings.
10:09	drewr	Ah, the timestamp is the issue here?
10:09	Chousuke	yeah
10:10	drewr	Did that change with the patch you guys were just talking about?
10:10	Chouser	drewr: heh,yeah.
10:11	Chouser	I really hadn't thought of it as a breaking change.
10:11	drewr	I updated clojure this morning, made a change to my code, then got the error. :-)
10:11	drewr	Wrong order there.
10:11	Chousuke	you're supposed to use with-open only to bind closeable stuff.
10:12	Chouser	and now that's enforced.
10:12	Chousuke	code like that worked just fine with the old version, but it still is a bug
10:13	rhickey	if you were calling with-open in the past with more than one name and init, your program had a bug
10:13	drewr	Good to know.
10:13	rhickey	this is not a breaking change
10:14	rhickey	this might be a broken code revealing change :)
10:14	bOR_	Chouser - about send vs send-off. the latter is for potentially blocking events.. I guess that anyplace where I alter a ref needs a send-off then.
10:15	drewr	bOR_: How right you are. Learned that the hard way yesterday.
10:15	Chouser	bOR_: nope, altering a ref doesn't block
10:15	Chouser	hm
10:15	drewr	I wasn't agreeing with the ref part necessarily, but the "potentially blocking" part, yes.
10:16	Chouser	oh, ok.
10:16	bOR_	I got different results when using send vs send-off where each agent was an event + location -> (send (agent nil) (birth 23))
10:16	drewr	I changed some sends to send-offs yesterday with my socket code, and poof, things started working.
10:16	bOR_	vs (send-off ...)
10:16	bOR_	hmm.
10:16	bOR_	fun thing about this is that I can change the whole mode of concurrency without touching 90% of my code. It's just the way I invoke it.
10:17	drewr	I still don't understand why they behave differently though.
10:17	bOR_	I'll put a note to myself to look into send vs send-off again.
10:17	Chousuke	drewr: that append-file in dosync looks suspicious. aren't transactions supposed to be side-effect free?
10:18	Chouser	drewr's case makes sense to me, because if all of the send-pools threads are busy blocked on IO, another 'send' will just queue up and may never exectue.
10:18	drewr	Chousuke: Good point.. they might be retried.
10:18	Chousuke	though I guess that particular transaction should never get restarted.
10:18	Chousuke	since all it does is read the value once.
10:19	drewr	It might be moot to put it in a transaction anyway since the file is opened, written, and closed in one function.
10:19	Chouser	didn't notice that -- yeah, there's no need for dosync in that log function at all.
10:19	Chouser	oh!
10:19	Chouser	gah, sorry.
10:19	drewr	I just didn't know how atomic that was and whether threads could ever block because of it.
10:20	drewr	Chouser: Yeah, that was the change I was playing with when the with-open semantics side-tracked me :-)
10:20	drewr	I couldn't figure out how adding dosync now messed up my bindings.
10:20	Chouser	ok, it would be fine with no dosync -- do a flying read on logfile, and you should be fine.
10:21	gnuvince	~later tell Gonzo http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6320/1229995264818rm4.png
10:21	gnuvince	oops
10:21	gnuvince	wrong channel, sorry
10:22	Chousuke	you might still have multiple threads calling log simultaneously though
10:22	Chouser	if you wanted to update the value of logfile to indicate what had been written, then you might need a dosync.
10:22	Chouser	Chousuke: but a dosync wouldn't prevent that.
10:22	Chousuke	true
10:22	Chousuke	an agent could be useful
10:24	Chousuke	send all log requests to an agent and let it take care of opening and closing the file.
10:24	drewr	Interesting.
10:27	Chouser	Chousuke: that's perfect. I'd pondered a similar loggin problem before, and using an agent hadn't occured to me.
10:29	bOR_	ah. that's because a single agent just has a queue of tasks that it works through, right?
10:29	bOR_	nice.
10:34	drewr	Sweet fancy moses, that works like a charm!
10:35	drewr	Nothing is blocking now. Ah, glory.
10:36	Chouser	drewr: are you opening the file each time you have something new to log?
10:37	drewr	Chouser: Yep. (defn log [s] ... (send-off (agent logfile) append-file s)), where append-file does (with-open ... (.write ...)).
10:38	drewr	Those threads could probably pile up on a busy server though.
10:39	drewr	But maybe not any worse than logging on a busy server anyways.
10:41	bOR_	is there any way from within the repl to see what version of clojure I am using?
10:41	Chouser	bOR_: no
10:42	Chouser	drewr: that's not right -- you're creating multiple agents -- they could open the file at the same time, and then ... havoc. :-)
10:42	bOR_	either I by accident used the old version of clojure, or the AtomicLong didn't stop the problem.
10:42	drewr	Chouser: Hm.
10:43	Chouser	drewr: I think you want logfile to be an agent instead of a ref
10:43	drewr	(It's not a ref anymore, btw, just a string.)
10:43	drewr	It was only a ref while I played with dosync.
10:44	drewr	(def logger (agent logfile)) ... (defn log ... (send-off logger ...)) ?
10:45	rhickey	bOR_: what version did you think you were running?
10:46	bOR_	I've the last release and the svg installed.
10:46	bOR_	svn
10:46	bOR_	when the bug came back, I wanted to make sure that I am running the svn version
10:46	bOR_	and not by accident the old version.
10:47	bOR_	not sure if my run-lisp in emacs caught the new version, or called the old version.
10:47	rhickey	what was the old version?
10:47	bOR_	clojure_20081217.zip
10:48	rhickey	so, wouldn't have had condp - you can check for that at the repl
10:48	bOR_	'k
10:48	bOR_	good call
10:49	bOR_	(doc condp) should work then?
10:49	rhickey	yup
10:49	bOR_	(it doesn't)
10:49	bOR_	ok.
10:50	bOR_	so then it's just me making a silly mistake.
10:50	bOR_	next update in a few hours :)
10:51	drewr	Chouser: That doesn't work.
10:52	drewr	Multiple calls to log get hung somehow.
10:53	drewr	The new-agent-per-write method works great though. I'm not sure how they would clobber each other in that scenario.
10:53	drewr	Things get logged out of order sometimes, but that happens anyway.
10:55	Chouser	drewr: I'm afraid if two things try to log at the same time, one might get lost entirely.
10:55	rhickey	drewr: why don't you send-off an agent to read from a blocking queue?
10:56	drewr	rhickey: Yeah, I could mimic the way I'm interacting with the socket.
10:57	drewr	Makes sense too since it's all i/o.
10:57	Chouser	or use 'send' to append to the agent string, and 'send-off' on a timer to flush it do disk.
10:58	rhickey	wait, you just want async, in-order, non-overlapping logging?
10:58	rhickey	just send-off agt log
10:58	drewr	rhickey: Essentially, yes. I want the stuff to show up in the file at some point and not block anything.
10:58	rhickey	to the same agt
10:59	drewr	That's what Chouser suggested, but I can only get it to work by creating a new agent each write.
10:59	rhickey	why?
10:59	drewr	I'm not sure. :-)
11:00	drewr	Option 1: (send-off (agent "/tmp/foo.log") append-file _str)
11:00	drewr	Option 2: (def logger (agent "/tmp/foo.log")) .. (send-off logger append-file _str)
11:01	drewr	For me, 1 writes, 2 doesn't.
11:01	rhickey	drewr: does append-file return "/tmp/foo.log"
11:02	drewr	Well, 2 writes, but only the first time.
11:02	rhickey	right, becuae your action trashes your agent state
11:02	rhickey	must return new state
11:02	rhickey	(can be same as old)
11:02	drewr	Ahhhh, yes. I had left the string as the return state.
11:02	drewr	Much better. :-)
11:05	rhickey	Chouser: svn 1184: ~x not in syntax-quote yields (clojure.core/unquote x)
11:05	rhickey	clojure.core/unquote has no root binding
11:07	Chouser	rhickey: cool
11:07	Chouser	now when someone gets around to writing a nice sql-query builder, they can have a tidy syntax for it.
11:09	rhickey	Chouser: did you ever need it for your xml stuff?
11:11	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/list
11:11	Chouser	I haven't yet, no. zip-filter ended up not even needing any macros, much to my surprise.
11:14	duck1123	I wonder if unquote will prove to be useful in the SPARQL DSL that's being discussed.
11:15	Chouser	duck1123: I think it came up there.
11:15	RSchulz	duck1123: What's unquote?
11:16	rhickey	unquote is undefined
11:16	RSchulz	This is the stuff about "quasiquote"
11:16	rhickey	http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/detail?r=1184
11:17	RSchulz	Sounds dangerously close to a read-time hook...
11:18	RSchulz	(I like it.)
11:18	duck1123	RSchulz: I still don't see why you think clojure keywords would work so badly in sparql. The sparql variable, afaik, is a fairly simple thing. Unless there are some edge cases I don't know about.
11:18	duck1123	It's been a while since I read the spec
11:19	RSchulz	I think one aspect is that keywords should not be invented dynamically, but rather be defined in Clojure source code.
11:19	RSchulz	Also, I'm not sure what problem they solve for this particular use case.
11:28	RSchulz	Is the intention that the programmer supplies a definition of clojure.core/unquote to control what happens when unquoted forms appear outside of a syntax-quote?
11:30	duck1123	hmm... can you bind a fn to a var in a different namespace inside a let?
11:31	duck1123	you would only want clojure.core/unquote to mean something inside your macro (or whatever)
11:34	RSchulz	I read the entire "A quasiquote for Clojure?" thread, but I don't think I get the utility of this change. In particular, I don't see how it achieves the results he suggests for his (then impossible) example from SQL and scsh.
11:36	Chouser	if you want your own meaning for ~ outside of ` you can either use binding or a macro.
11:38	Chouser	the idea is that I could write a sql-building macro now that would be called like: (let [x 55] (select a, b (from tblc) (where (= a ~x))))
11:39	Chouser	before 1184 there would be no way to make this work.
11:39	Chouser	even better (where (= (+ a 1) ~(- x 1)))
11:40	Chouser	...clearly indicate which expressions should be translated to SQL and sent over, and which should be evaluated as Clojure code locally instead.
11:41	RSchulz	But the burden remains upon the macro writer to do something (eval, in these examples?) things wrapped in (clojure.core/unquote ...)?
11:42	duck1123	right
11:42	Chouser	RSchulz: yes, but now it's possible. previously it generated an error at read time, before the macro writer could do anything with it.
11:42	RSchulz	Right.
11:44	duck1123	It's a runtime error if ~ is used a c.c/unquote is not defined?
11:44	RSchulz	But the Scheme quasiquote that Meikel described would just eval those forms unconditionally in the global environment? Or did it preserve control of their dispensation, too?
11:45	Chouser	duck1123: yes, now it's a runtime error
11:46	Chouser	it's interesting to me that rhickey bound c.c/unquote at all, allowing the use of 'binding' to define it.
11:46	Chouser	not bound, but interned I guess.
11:47	RSchulz	It's just a (def unquote) in clojure/core.clj
11:47	RSchulz	(Plus minor changes in LispReader.java)
11:47	Chouser	without the (def unquote) it could still be used by macros, but would generate a compile-time error if used incorrectly
11:48	Chouser	...and 'binding' wouldn't be an option.
11:52	RSchulz	So if you wanted to support the Scheme behavior in one of your macros, you could wrap its expansion in (binding clojure.core/unquote #(eval %) ...) ???
11:52	Chouser	I don't know how Scheme behaves.
11:53	Chousuke	RSchulz: #(eval %) == eval :)
11:53	RSchulz	Let's say it does what I suggested / asked above: Evaluates in the global env.
11:53	RSchulz	Chousuke: Right (D'Oh!)
11:54	Chouser	(binding [unquote inc] ~5)
11:55	Chousuke	that's just evil
11:55	RSchulz	Let me guess... 6? ... OK. I cheated and evaluated it...
11:55	Chouser	yes. don't do it.
11:55	RSchulz	Ah, yes. And I see you have to use (binding ...) correctly. So many rules...
11:55	Chousuke	but at least it's explicitly evil
11:56	Chouser	hm, is it? as I said, I'm a bit surprised it's allowed.
11:56	RSchulz	You could use it composing inc and dec to ensure that you got a number. That would be implicitly evil, rigth?
11:56	Chouser	it may be a really pleasant way to write some non-evil functionality, but I'm not sure.
11:57	Chousuke	I mean, it requires teh (binding) form
11:57	Chouser	yeah, but 'binding' is not explicitly evil.
11:57	Chouser	though I guess it does stand out a bit.
11:57	RSchulz	Consider the shell case (I wrote some stuff like that as an excersize and for its mild utility). In this context, they become like $foo shell variables.
11:57	Chousuke	though I suppose it's easy to hide all that inside a macro.
11:58	RSchulz	(given the (binding [unquote eval] ...) interpretation.
11:59	Chousuke	but clojure already gives more than enough abusable tools. I don't think being able to rebind unquote will make much of a difference.
11:59	rhickey	Chouser: being a var is irrelevant, if not, (let [unquote inc] ~5)
11:59	RSchulz	I'm sure people will find creative uses and abuses of it.
11:59	Chousuke	at least it'll always work as expected inside a ` form
11:59	Chouser	rhickey: ah! of course.
11:59	Chouser	Chousuke: heh. yes.
12:00	rhickey	actually, not true, if I use clojure.core/unquote
12:00	Chouser	Chousuke: my point is that for a macro, 'binding' probably wouldn't be used at all.
12:00	rhickey	would get Can't let qualified name
12:02	rhickey	It's certainly not my intention that binding be used, you just get unbound error instead of no var error, and would be harder for macros to get at unquote with namespaces, since no corresponding var
12:03	Chouser	you mean you'd need the whole symbol name since it wouldn't resolve the namespace for you?
12:03	rhickey	user=> clojure.core/bogus
12:03	rhickey	java.lang.Exception: No such var: clojure.core/bogus (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:03	rhickey	user=> clojure.core/unquote
12:03	rhickey	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var clojure.core/unquote is unbound. (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
12:03	rhickey	user=> `bogus
12:03	rhickey	user/bogus
12:03	rhickey	user=> `unquote
12:03	rhickey	clojure.core/unquote
12:04	Chousuke	couldn't you for example bind unquote to some custom function so that all forms passed to the macro with unquotes in them would become calls to that function.
12:06	rhickey	Chousuke: I'm interested to see if people could do that usefully, certainly easier than tree-walking for substitution, but either is possible right now
12:09	rhickey	so, for now I'm not trying to disallow it, nor require it (binding)
12:17	duck1123	would it be possible to make mention of compile-files on the compilation page? I had a hard time trying to remember what it was called. (had to go to clj-doc then to the email thread)
12:23	rhickey	duck1123: http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/detail?id=9 - patch welcome
12:26	duck1123	does documentation enhancements require a CA? (bringing the form home tonight so I can finally send it in)
12:28	rhickey	duck1123: documentation for vars will go into the code
12:34	lisppaste8	Chouser pasted "example of using ~ in macro calls" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72572
12:35	rhickey	neat
12:37	Chouser	you have to choose your test expressions very carefully to maintain the illusion that 'where' produces valid SQL. :-)
13:01	lisppaste8	RSchulz pasted "Broken use of "unquote"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72574
13:01	RSchulz	Howdy. What's wrong with this ^^^
13:02	RSchulz	The "shf" function to which these macros delegate works, as does the "sh" macro.
13:03	lisppaste8	RSchulz annotated #72574 with "Explanation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72574#1
13:13	hoeck	RSchulz: there is no unqote function
13:14	RSchulz	I'm running SVN 1184
13:17	hoeck	im on 1160 but i suspect that unquoting implementation has changed
13:17	RSchulz	This is about http://code.google.com/p/clojure/source/detail?r=1184
13:18	hoeck	ah, guess i have to update and look before making more noise
13:21	Chouser	RSchulz: http://localhost/proj/clojure-log/macro.html
13:21	RSchulz	Localhost??
13:21	Chouser	oh, sorry
13:21	RSchulz	hoeck: It started here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/6d0c5f7e37909055
13:22	Chouser	RSchulz: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/macro.html
13:22	RSchulz	You can't tell my looking at the (defmacro ...) for shq I pasted? It's self-contained.
13:23	Chouser	RSchulz: did you try macroexpand?
13:23	RSchulz	Yes.
13:23	RSchulz	Shall I annotate my paste with the result?
13:24	lisppaste8	RSchulz annotated #72574 with "Example expansion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72574#2
13:24	Chouser	clojure.core/unquote appears within a (quote ...), so it gets passed literally to shf
13:24	RSchulz	What's that phrase? ... Oh, yeah: D'Oh!
13:25	Chouser	:-)
13:25	Chouser	it's hardly proof, but may be an indication that 'binding' isn't a useful way to use unquote
13:26	bOR_	while we're on the topic of D'Ohs, there must be a hundred simpler ways to get the number of different letters between two strings than the one I made now.
13:26	bOR_	(count (filter #(= (count (set %)) 1) (seq (zipmap (vec string1) (vec string2)))))
13:26	bOR_	I sort of grabbed whatever function brought me closer to the end-goal.
13:27	bOR_	but as I still only know a fraction of the functions that clojure has, I am probably missing something simple.
13:27	RSchulz	Chouser: Perhapsibly. I'll keep poking at it to see if I can come up with an elegant way to achieve that effect.
13:29	Chouser	(count (filter true? (map = string1 string2))) ?
13:30	Chouser	hm, that's not quite the same
13:31	Chouser	bOR_: well, at the very least I don't think 'vec' is buying you anything
13:32	bOR_	ah. right.
13:33	bOR_	thanks :).
13:34	bOR_	I tried to do something like #(= %1 %2), but that didnt work.
13:35	Chouser	do you really want different answers for ["abb" "abc"] than for ["abc" "abb"] ?
13:35	bOR_	hmm? no.
13:35	Chouser	I get 1 for the first, 2 for the second.
13:36	bOR_	I just want abcdefg aaadefg to report a difference of 2.
13:36	Chouser	oh, ok. then what I posted above should work.
13:36	bOR_	ah. great :). I'll go and learn to understand it.
13:36	Chouser	the problem is zipmap is not commutative
13:38	bOR_	the problem is that I think I know how map works, based on ruby, and then see it do marvellous things in clojure.
13:38	bOR_	;)
13:38	Chouser	yeah, clojure's map has this magical multiple-collection feature.
13:41	RSchulz	I don't think it'll ever work to try to get unquote to selectively add a level of evaluation in a syntax-quoted form in one-shot style, since the syntax quoting happens at the outside, and once you eval that outer syntax-quote away, you _then_ must get the unquote to act as eval, but that means everything around it will get eval'ed, too.
13:42	hoeck	RSchulz: thanks for the pointer to the unquote post, the list really too big to keep an eye on all posts
13:42	RSchulz	In other words, I think a tree-traversal with selective treatment of (unquote ...) -ed sub-forms will always be required.
13:42	RSchulz	Has someone concocted "tree-map" yet? Presumably it could be built upon the Zipper in a straightforward manner.
13:42	Chouser	RSchulz: excellent -- that's a useful position. Thanks for reaching it.
13:42	rhickey	:)
13:45	rhickey	props to Chouser for his help on the docs: http://clojure.org/space/changes - hope everyone's been refreshing and reading
13:47	bOR_	noticed a lot of the changes :). Thanks Chouser!
13:48	Chouser	I'm getting mixed reviews on the no-longer-inline function docs.
13:48	rhickey	Chouser: they simply can't be maintained
13:49	bOR_	we can't get like world of warcraft - hovering descriptions?
13:49	rhickey	When I get time I'll add more prose and examples
13:49	Chouser	bOR_ suggests an option I'd considered.
13:49	bOR_	http://www.wowdb.com/search.aspx?search_text=sword#items
13:49	Chouser	I could probably cobble together some javascript to provide that.
13:50	Chouser	rhickey: we also might want to find a way to deal with currently un-linkable function names.
13:50	rhickey	Chouser: as long as derived from API page, sure
13:51	rhickey	as far as unlinkables, would just be mod to that wikigen script I pasted, with some munging convention right?
13:51	Chouser	script tags can be added to the wiki template or something? I wasn't sure.
13:52	Chouser	yeah -- munging convention of the anchor itself, but I think there may still be problems with the visible text.
13:53	Chouser	I guess this might be acceptible: [[api#not_EQUAL_\|not]]=
13:54	rhickey	some is just wiki problems, for instance http://clojure.org/api#instance? works
13:54	rhickey	but that link didn't in the wiki markup
13:54	danlarkin	what about the clojure naming scheme itself... not= can be not_EQ___
13:55	danlarkin	or something like that
13:55	danlarkin	swap! == swap_BANG
13:55	rhickey	user=> (clojure.lang.Compiler/munge "not=")
13:55	rhickey	"not_EQ_"
13:56	rhickey	user=> (clojure.lang.Compiler/munge "swap!")
13:56	rhickey	"swap_BANG_"
13:56	rhickey	user=> (clojure.lang.Compiler/munge "instance?")
13:56	rhickey	"instance_QMARK_"
13:56	rhickey	solved problem
13:56	danlarkin	there we go, that's got my vote
13:59	bOR_	rhickey 127000 living: 888 infected: 865
13:59	bOR_	ok. sim now happily runs past 126600
13:59	rhickey	woo hoo
13:59	bOR_	you nicely spotted the problem from my description
14:00	rhickey	:)
14:05	RSchulz	http://clojure.org/other_functions page led me to (partial ...) ... So, how is partial application different from currying? Where might one learn such things? Google's not helping...
14:07	Lau_of_DK	Has anyone made a really easy script for updating clojure+clojure-mode+swank-mode all in one?
14:08	danlarkin	cd clojure-dir && svn up && cd clojure-mode-dir && svn up...
14:08	danlarkin	:-)
14:10	Chouser	RSchulz: my (weak) understanding of currying is such that 'partial' provides explicit currying.
14:15	RSchulz	Chouser: Thanks. Does that suggest that Clojure's (partial ...) is a misnomer? Or that Clojure as a language negates the distinction between the two concepts?
14:17	Chouser	are the concepts distinct?
14:17	RSchulz	Folks in the Haskell world seem to think so.
14:18	Chouser	ok, I think I'm my lack of knowledge about currying is showing.
14:18	RSchulz	http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2266 for example.
14:19	RSchulz	But I doubt I know more than you about this stuff.
14:19	Chouser	with a bit of reading it looks like if you curry a function, you get a new one that can take some args but if it's not complete you get a new function instead of the final result.
14:21	gnuvince	From my understanding, currying is when all functions take just one argument and multi-arg functions are actually a function that returns a function that returns a function...
14:22	RSchulz	OK. I guess I can see the distinction there.
14:23	RSchulz	I was thinking, one is about function composition, the other about a kind of "placeholder" function that keeps and supplies a fixed set of arguments. I guess that's consistent.
14:23	Chouser	man. Python resolutely refuses to evaluate my clojure forms.
14:23	gnuvince	How surprising
14:25	Chouser	if my understanding of currying is correct (now), then for curry to work it has to know how many arguments the real function wants, while 'partial' doesn't.
14:25	gnuvince	Currying knows how many arguments a function wants: one.
14:26	gnuvince	take 3 [1,2,3] in Haskell is interpreted as (take 3) [1,2,3] where (take 3) returns a function that takes one argument
14:27	gnuvince	So if a Haskell function takes "4" arguments, it will accept to be passed none, one, two, three or four arguments.
14:27	rhickey	a curried function is one that, when called with fewer than ll of its args, returns a partially applied version of itself, i.e. if + were curried: ((+ 1) 2) == 3
14:28	rhickey	partial is not currying, in that it doesn't curry a function
14:29	rhickey	if Clojure had curry, then (((curry +) 1) 2) == 3
14:30	RSchulz	So currying applies to functions per se and in isolation, while partial application applies to functions and (some of) their arguments.
14:30	rhickey	but variadics mess with currying pretty bad
14:30	Chouser	and in that case, 'curry' would have to use knowledge of how many args + wants, in order to know when to return a partial function vs. when to call +
14:30	rhickey	the above presumes binary +
14:30	RSchulz	Do what prolog does, and tack on the arity as an implicit name suffix.
14:30	Chouser	gak
14:30	RSchulz	So there aren't any variadic functions.
14:30	RSchulz	In reality.
14:31	RSchulz	Just a punning scheme.
14:31	Chouser	RSchulz: probably doesn't handle infinite lazy args, though, eh?
14:31	RSchulz	Probably not...
14:32	RSchulz	OK. Well, thanks for the information. Some of the fog has cleared.
14:32	rhickey	svn 1185 - added release-pending-sends
14:33	rhickey	(just call me clojurebot)
14:33	RSchulz	Has anyone heard from hiredman today?
14:34	duck1123	rhickey: botsnack
14:34	rhickey	crunch
16:14	duck1123	Does anyone know if that compile-path bug could also possibly cause classpath issues where a class is compiled, jarred, then moved to a different location?
16:15	duck1123	I'm getting a class not found error on a class that's in another jar in the same directory as this jar. $CATALINA_BASE/lib
16:21	Lau_of_DK	I just upgraded to the latest REV of Clojure, and upon starting the Repl, I get this error, then the Repl proceeds
16:21	Lau_of_DK	user=> Exception in thread "Call-on-write Stream" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: sleep for class java.lang.Class
16:21	Lau_of_DK	at clojure.lang.AFn.run(AFn.java:42)
16:21	Lau_of_DK	at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)
16:21	Lau_of_DK	Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: sleep for class java.lang.Class
16:32	karmazilla	Lau_of_DK: the repl started from clojure.main seems to work
16:32	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: your're using slime??
16:33	Lau_of_DK	Yes sir
16:33	hoeck	had the same error a few days ago, they are calling (.sleep Thread) instead of (Thread/sleep)
16:33	Lau_of_DK	oh ok
16:34	hoeck	don't worry, this happens upon startup, maybe to wait for slow emacsens
16:34	Lau_of_DK	Ok, I'll leave it then
16:34	hoeck	or pull a new swank clojure version
16:34	Lau_of_DK	I just did, its all brand new
16:36	hoeck	aha, well, i fixed it myself to ged rid of this errormessage
16:36	Lau_of_DK	I'll just leave it, it causes no trouble
17:04	lisppaste8	drewr pasted "str -> var" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72589
17:05	drewr	How can I eliminate having to specify this-ns here?
17:06	Lau_of_DK	You're asking how to query the name of the currently used namespace ?
17:06	hiredman	ns
17:07	drewr	What if you call str->var from foo.quux?
17:08	drewr	Lau_of_DK: Yes, but the one the fn is bound in.
17:09	hiredman	I not 100% (no clojure repl running) but I think namespace stuff is included in the metadata
17:09	hiredman	I am not
17:10	Lau_of_DK	drewr: Using a macro you can toggle it with ~
17:10	Lau_of_DK	So using ~ it will also be bound in the namespace where first call, w/o it will be dynamic, if I understood that operator correctly
17:10	Lau_of_DK	That is, if you call your macro from some defined function
17:11	hiredman	(def kludge)
17:11	hiredman	(:namespace (meta #'kludge))
17:11	hiredman	er
17:11	hiredman	(:ns (meta #'kludge))
17:12	drewr	Is it really this obscure to call a function from a string?
17:13	hiredman	yes
17:13	drewr	Then why does every other dynamic language I've worked with make it trivial?
17:14	Lau_of_DK	Get Rich on the line, he'll have to explain himself
17:14	danlarkin	drewr: how is it any easier in python
17:15	danlarkin	getattr(module,'function_name')()
17:15	danlarkin	that's basically equivalent to what was pasted
17:15	drewr	danlarkin: I can dispatch getattr without having to know the name of the module or class.
17:17	danlarkin	how do you need to know that here?
17:17	drewr	That's my question. How do I do it otherwise?
17:17	hiredman	danlarkin: he wants the strings to call functions from a specific namespace
17:18	drewr	Why can't find-var search the enclosing ns first?
17:18	danlarkin	(defn getattr [ns, name] (find-var (symbol (format "%s/%s" ns name))))
17:18	danlarkin	oops ignore that comma, was thinking in python
17:18	drewr	danlarkin: How do I know what to pass in for ns?
17:18	drewr	Clojure doesn't care. :-)
17:19	drewr	(about the comma)
17:19	danlarkin	but in python how do you know what to pass for the first arg of getattr?
17:19	hiredman	I think you two are having a failure to communicate
17:20	drewr	danlarkin: I can pass in self, for example.
17:20	hiredman	it is kind if funny to watch
17:20	danlarkin	probably my fault, I will admit
17:20	drewr	I don't have to care that self is an instance of Foo.
17:21	danlarkin	drewr: so you would like a getter function that works on namespaces and java classes, is that it?
17:21	hiredman	he has a name space "foo" and would like his function to call functions in the namespace "foo" even if it is called in another namespace
17:22	hiredman	drewr: does that sound correct?
17:22	drewr	hiredman: Yep.
17:23	hiredman	so you could just hard code the namespace part, bacause you hardcode the namespace in the top of the file anyway
17:23	hiredman	or you could do the kludge thing I mentioned
17:23	danlarkin	ah, and ns will be user (for instance) and not org.drewr.foo
17:23	drewr	danlarkin: Yes.
17:24	hiredman	(def kludge) (:ns (meta #'kludge))
17:24	hiredman	it maybe be more idiomatic these days to use something like (declare ...) for that
17:26	drewr	hiredman: OK, now I see what you mean.
17:26	drewr	Of course, now I have to duplicate the name of #'kludge :-)
17:27	hiredman	mazal tov
17:34	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: Are you planning to implement a seen? function in the bot? So I could say seen chouser? And I'd say Chouser was last active 5 hours ago
17:34	Lau_of_DK	Or seen rhickey? and It'd say Rich was last online 2 hours ago, something like that?
17:34	hiredman	that would be nice
17:36	hiredman	there are many features the bot needs
17:38	danlarkin	hiredman: have you made it a proper github project yet?
17:38	hiredman	no
17:38	hiredman	lazy lazy man that I am
17:39	danlarkin	clojurebot: hiredman?
17:39	danlarkin	<clojurebot> hiredman has too much free time
17:41	hiredman	the machine that runs clojurebot is in pieces on the floor
17:41	hiredman	a hard drive died so I need to rebuild it
17:41	Lau_of_DK	rebuild it = ?
17:42	hiredman	got the new drives last night
17:42	hiredman	well the data drive is fine
17:42	hiredman	the drive with the OS on it is toast
17:43	danlarkin	ah I was wondering where clojurebot ran from
17:44	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: I think keeping /home on a seperate partition/drive saves alot of headaches when having to 'rebuild', then it only takes ~10 minuz
17:46	hiredman	it runs on a webserver that I thought was in southern washington, but when it died I found it was here in seattle somewhere
17:48	danlarkin	but now is on your floor?
17:48	hiredman	at home :P
17:52	karmazilla	so... clojurebot is built on a solid foundation of wooden planks?
17:54	hiredman	cement covered some kind of padding with carpet on top, I believe
17:55	hiredman	there are wooden planks around, but not in, on, or constrituting the floor
18:03	Chousuke	can't you use resolve to find a var?
18:05	Chousuke	you could use (resolve (symbol string)) and if the string is unqualified it'll find the var using the normal resolution rules; and same as find-var for qualified symbols
18:09	hiredman	yeah, but he wants his function (call it A) to call functions in the namepsace that A is defined in
18:09	hiredman	not the namespace A is called from
18:09	hiredman	well
18:10	hiredman	wait
18:10	hiredman	I dunno
18:10	hiredman	and no repl
18:10	hiredman	sigh
18:12	Chousuke	that happens by default, doesn't it.
18:13	Chousuke	I guess if you want to look up fns by strings you might get the wrong functions :/
18:13	hiredman	yes, but function A actually takes a string and creates a new symbol
18:16	danlarkin	I like the #'kludge method
18:16	danlarkin	it's a kludge for sure, but a pretty good one
18:16	hiredman	I need to start using the word "kludge" more often
18:17	yldop	hmm is jdbc an ORM?
18:17	hiredman	No.
18:17	Lau_of_DK	What is kludge?
18:17	yldop	but it abstracts away the specifics of the database you use...
18:17	hiredman	a navy term from what I hear
18:18	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kludge
18:18	danlarkin	http://www.ccil.org/jargon/jargon_26.html#TAG1000
18:18	yldop	if i write a wrapper for jdbc like: (defn make-table [name & vars]...), is that an orm?
18:18	hiredman	ugh
18:18	hiredman	I was just going to say "I am sure it must be in the jargon file"
18:19	Lau_of_DK	Is it clojure-mode which handles highlighting in emacs or are there other modes infererring?
18:19	hiredman	yldop: ORM -> Objec Relational Mapping
18:20	hiredman	unless you are mapping objects to a relational database, you are just muddying an already muddied term
18:20	yldop	lol
18:21	yldop	so is there some fancy term for wrapping sql-queries in a langauge
18:21	RSchulz	LINQ?
18:21	hiredman	database abstraction
18:22	Lau_of_DK	yldop: You and I are working on the same project essentially
18:22	hiredman	"glazing over shit"
18:22	yldop	Lau_of_DK: are you working on the contrib-sql?
18:22	hiredman	not that I would call sql shit mind you
18:23	Lau_of_DK	yldop: No, Kotarak and I started our own ClojureQL on Github, which is Sql queries as higher order functions, seamlessly integrated in your lisp code
18:23	yldop	i made/make my own simple wrapper over derby/jdbc
18:23	Lau_of_DK	cool, got it posted anywhere public?
18:23	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: url?
18:23	yldop	lau: address?
18:23	Lau_of_DK	http://github.com/Lau-of-DK/clojureql/
18:23	yldop	no mine is very small, not that much to it yet
18:24	yldop	maybe i better contribute to yours
18:24	Lau_of_DK	We are also just booting, but we have basic functionality working now, like (sql (query [developer id] table_developers (= id 15)))
18:24	Lau_of_DK	That will query as SELECT (developer, id) FROM table_developers WHERE id = 15
18:24	hiredman	cute
18:25	hiredman	take that, read table griefers
18:26	RSchulz	Never forget http://xkcd.com/327/
18:26	hoeck	hey, i have (select (project table-developer '(id developer)) (= id 15))
18:29	danlarkin	I bet you can make jdbc handle escaping for you
18:29	danlarkin	you want to parameterize your SQL queries, makes them (much) faster and safer too!
18:30	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: Can you give an example
18:31	RSchulz	Check out the XKCD!
18:31	Lau_of_DK	Alright already :)
18:31	RSchulz	"Little Bobby Tables" I still laugh every time I read that one.
18:31	Lau_of_DK	RSchulz: HAHAHAA
18:31	hoeck	xkcd rules :)
18:32	Lau_of_DK	Thats the funniest ever, naming your kid after an SQL injection
18:33	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: well for instance in python I can do cursor.execute("select * from users where name = 'dan'") or cursor.execute("select * from users where name = %s", ('dan',))
18:34	Lau_of_DK	Oh ok, thats what were going for, ultimately to use dynamic statements including math/clojure code
18:34	RSchulz	Is the notion of a Prepared Statement a JDBC thing or an SQL thing?
18:34	danlarkin	the second is a parameterized query, the database can say "Oh, I am going to get a lot of queries where only the %s will change so I can make this faster" versus having to parse the whole statement each time it gets the query
18:35	danlarkin	RSchulz: it's an SQL thing
18:35	danlarkin	RSchulz: that is to say, it's not part of the SQL specification or anything, but it isn't limited to JDBC
18:36	RSchulz	OK. So it's available in any decent SQL access library. I would never consider constructing queries by string synthesis.
18:37	danlarkin	RSchulz: right... not only is it much harder to guard against SQL injections that way but it's also way slower for hot queries
18:37	RSchulz	Win/Win vs. Lose/Lose. Isn't that what's called a "no-brainer?"
18:37	danlarkin	Jeff Atwood (I'm not a huge fan, but when he's right he's right) has a good short explanation, http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000275.html
18:38	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: I noticed one of the clojureql functions has a misspelled name. patch to fix: http://www.modeemi.fi/~oranenj/typo-fix.patch
18:38	Lau_of_DK	Thanks Chousuke
18:38	Lau_of_DK	My kinda guy
18:38	Lau_of_DK	:)
18:39	Chousuke	I kind of wanted to do my own fork of that thing and have you use git to merge my clone, but that would've been overkill :P
18:39	Lau_of_DK	hehe, yes it would :)
18:39	Chousuke	even though it would've taught me how to do such things with github
18:40	Lau_of_DK	Git has some great tutorials online
18:40	Chousuke	yeah, I've read through them
18:42	Lau_of_DK	hehe
18:42	Lau_of_DK	I hope people can see the fun in all that truth
18:44	RSchulz	You mean the spelling error?
18:44	RSchulz	(OK. Typo.)
18:45	Lau_of_DK	Arent language-wars encouraged anymore?
18:45	karmazilla	RSchulz: you mean the I CAN HASMAP ;p
18:46	RSchulz	Yes. That's the one.
18:46	Lau_of_DK	Hehe
18:48	karmazilla	Lau_of_DK: I thought language war => mock the VB people. Also, DataSource > DriverManager.
18:49	Lau_of_DK	Language wars are usually incredibly boring, but somehow making fun of the python-crowd just never gets old
18:49	danlarkin	I really like python :-/
18:50	Lau_of_DK	The language itself has some pros, but it just draws an unfortunate crowd, hence the IQ joke in the docs
18:50	bOR_	I liked ruby, but I grew out of it, it seems.
18:50	Lau_of_DK	Ive seen sooo many posts on various code-forums like "How can I best design this OOP structure in C++" and the first 3 replies will be something like "Well, you should code it in Python bla bla", and it just gets old real quick
18:51	bOR_	eventually, you head for a lisp-thing :)
18:52	Chousuke	lisp people will just mutter something about OOP and chuckle.
18:52	Lau_of_DK	maybe...
18:52	bOR_	at one point in time, the model that now is also in clojure was in ruby.. and was full of objects.
18:52	bOR_	dropping all the structure saved soo much time and code.
18:52	Lau_of_DK	I just see a real problem, when the #1 criteria for choosing a given language, is the fact that you cant figure out C and you think PHP is too complicated... But that might be a way too broad generalization :)
18:52	bOR_	the middle way was that I did leave the host class in there.
18:53	bOR_	but could just as well have done it with a single array being the host object ;).
18:54	bOR_	I don't think I want to figure out C anymore. Coded in it for my masters, partially ported the model to it during my phd before I lost the motivation to do so.
18:54	bOR_	hooked onto arc for half a year or something.
18:54	bOR_	didn't like the absent dictator thing,
18:55	bOR_	and headed for clojure :).
18:55	bOR_	it is sort of nice to work parttime by choice, so that you've time to muck around looking at other languages and things.
18:55	danlarkin	I feel bad for the poor programmers pg hooked on to arc with his lofty statements and failure to deliver
18:55	danlarkin	BURN
18:55	bOR_	nah.
18:55	bOR_	everybody has a free will.
18:56	Lau_of_DK	danlarkin: What is really that bad?
18:56	bOR_	at least, I spend some time coding another pet project in arc.
18:56	bOR_	Lau - this one was the bad thing for me.. lemme drag it up.
18:58	danlarkin	well it's just that if anyone else had "released" what he did they wouldn't have gained much attention at all
18:58	bOR_	can't find it.. don't want to read through the whole thing
18:58	danlarkin	but a lot of people respect and trust him so they tried to improve it
18:58	danlarkin	but then he kinda... gave up?
18:59	bOR_	sort of.. he just comments once every 2 months.
18:59	bOR_	and is just putting almost no effort into it.
18:59	bOR_	people try to improve on the language, but get no feedback.
18:59	Lau_of_DK	Sounds sad
18:59	Lau_of_DK	What he planning to deliver a boat load of libs himself ?
18:59	bOR_	that's the post I'm trying to recover.
19:00	bOR_	he's planning to have a decent language in about 10 years or so.
19:00	bOR_	so he's not in a hurry.
19:00	danlarkin	his "100 year language" thing is what gets me
19:00	danlarkin	to me it's just an excuse to shrug off the difficult thing about building a new language
19:01	Chousuke	a language can and should be an evolving entity
19:02	Lau_of_DK	Im kinda glad I jumped from SBCL to Clojure :)
19:02	Lau_of_DK	(taking the good advice of a Python guru)
19:02	bOR_	clojure pops up on a lot of forums as an interesting thing.
19:02	Chousuke	and I think gradual evolution is especially easy if you have something simple and flexible like a lisp. the only problem setting the initial direction.
19:02	danlarkin	Lau_of_DK: who?
19:03	Lau_of_DK	Davy Wybiral
19:03	Lau_of_DK	Davvy
19:03	Lau_of_DK	Quite a character, he actually wrote a Lisp wrapper for Python. Slow, but quite nice
19:04	Chousuke	because once you have momentum changes are going to take time; that's why it's pretty difficult to affect common lisp or scheme anymore
19:04	Lau_of_DK	Chousuke: Lisp is ever so simple in its construct, the deal-breaker is the libraries I think
19:05	Chousuke	in the short term, yeah
19:05	danlarkin	I think having a strong leader does a lot for a language, see Python/Ruby/C# versus Scheme/CL/C++
19:06	Chousuke	right.
19:07	danlarkin	and of course Rich
19:07	danlarkin	clojure, I mean
19:07	Lau_of_DK	netsplit?
19:08	karmazilla	only you
19:08	Lau_of_DK	bad enough
19:22	Lau_of_DK	has try/catch been changed in the latest rev?
19:23	Chousuke	the SVN log doesn't say anything about that. so no?
19:23	Lau_of_DK	but my code broke
19:24	Chousuke	using with-open?
19:24	Lau_of_DK	yes
19:24	Chousuke	some broken code may have been further broken by a certain with-open change.
19:24	Chousuke	namely, it now works with multiple bindings.
19:25	Chousuke	earlier it accepted them, but didn't work right :/
19:25	Lau_of_DK	hmm
19:25	Lau_of_DK	How do I need to rework my code?
19:25	Chousuke	well, my crystal ball is an old model, so it would help if you'd paste the code that breaks :)
19:28	Lau_of_DK	hehe, so nasty
19:29	Lau_of_DK	(try
19:29	Lau_of_DK	(with-open [con# (DriverManager/getConnection jdbc-url#
19:29	Lau_of_DK	~(:username @connection)
19:29	Lau_of_DK	~(:password @connection))]
19:29	Lau_of_DK	~@body
19:29	Lau_of_DK	(catch SQLException exceptionSql#
19:29	Lau_of_DK	(println exceptionSql#)))))))
19:29	Chousuke	use lisppaste, please
19:29	Chousuke	but hm
19:30	Chousuke	that looks like it should work
19:33	Lau_of_DK	I'd say so
19:33	Lau_of_DK	But it crashes with "catch is uknown bla bla"
19:34	Chousuke	is that from clojureql?
19:34	Lau_of_DK	yes
19:35	Chousuke	is it in the github version?
19:36	Lau_of_DK	Im not sure
19:36	Chousuke	can't find it
19:36	Lau_of_DK	And Im not in a position to push atm, so we can have a look tomorrow, Ive got to get some shuteye
19:36	Lau_of_DK	Then its a local thing, sorry
19:37	Lau_of_DK	I got, syntax error on my part, appologies for the noise
21:29	joha1	what is the standard clojure way of doing a switch-case structure, something like (case ...) in CL?
21:32	Chouser	there's cond, condp (brand new), and clojure.contrib.fcase
21:34	joha1	thanks
22:48	hiredman	so, if I want to deny access to a function, for example 'println', I can (binding [println nil] dowhatever) but what about for "primitives" or whatever like 'def'?
22:50	gnuvince_	(defmacro def [])
22:50	gnuvince_	wait, that doesn't work
22:53	hiredman	def is not a macro
22:53	hiredman	def is magic
22:53	hiredman	:(
22:53	Chouser	yes
22:53	Chouser	you're not going to get around it like that.
22:53	hiredman	sigh
22:54	Chouser	you do 'read' and then 'eval', right?
22:54	hiredman	any suggestions?
22:54	hiredman	yes
22:54	hiredman	well, this is entirely theoretical :P
22:54	Chouser	you could search the tree returned by 'read' and just disallow it if any list starts with a symbols whose name starts with 'def'
22:55	gnuvince_	hiredman: what are you working on? an eval IRC bot?
22:55	hiredman	hmm
22:55	hiredman	yeah, for clojurebot
22:55	hiredman	it has it
22:56	hiredman	but it should be better
22:56	hiredman	and someone was able to break it using try/catch so I need to disallow those
22:56	gnuvince_	I guess you'll have to check all the cars (sorry, firsts) and reject the expression if there is a special form, macro or function that you don't want to allow
22:58	hiredman	I disallowed try/catch by just filtering out strings that contained them, but he started trying stuff with (symbol (str "ca" "tch")) don't know if that would work though
22:58	hiredman	of course I also blocked input from him by nick :P
22:58	hiredman	but he TRIED it
23:01	hiredman	if I disallow eval that doesn't seem to work
23:04	gnuvince_	Is it just me or is tree-seq really awkward to use?
23:12	danlarkin	hiredman: I'm not sure it's possible, you'd have to hook in at the compiler level or something...
23:13	danlarkin	because you can't just check firsts
23:14	Chouser	danlarkin: oh?
23:16	danlarkin	right? because of stuff like (symbol (str "ca" "tch"))?
23:16	danlarkin	and apply, map
23:26	Chouser	hm, that's a good point.
23:26	Chouser	but macros and special forms can't be passed to apply or map
23:27	Chouser	and after you've built a symbol named 'catch' what will you do with it? you'd have to define it as a macro or pass it through eval, I think.
23:27	danlarkin	but #(def % "foo") can be passed to map
23:27	Chouser	defmacro and eval would both have to go first
23:28	Chouser	'def' is the first of a list there.
23:28	hiredman	whoops
23:28	hiredman	sorry, stopped paying attentio
23:28	hiredman	n
23:28	danlarkin	I don't think #() forms are iterable
23:28	danlarkin	er ISeq I mean
23:30	Chouser	it expands at read time to (fn [...] (def ...))
23:30	danlarkin	although '#(def % "foo") returns (fn* [p1__287] (def p1__287 "foo"))
23:30	hiredman	(-> "#(def % foo)" java.io.StringReader. java.io.PushbackReader. read)
23:30	danlarkin	so perhaps you can check firsts
23:30	hiredman	^- very instructive
23:31	hiredman	I can check the data structure returned by read
23:36	arbscht_	Chouser: do you mind if I publish your edition of snake.clj in place of the old one?
23:37	Chouser	arbscht_: go right ahead. I'm not sure it's better.
23:38	Chouser	I replaced your nice readable :x and :y map with a vector -- sometimes that makes programs smaller, but it didn't really here
23:38	Chouser	rather less readable with a vector
23:38	arbscht_	dropped by 1 line, by my count :)
23:39	Chouser	heh
23:41	hiredman	danlarkin: I can run tree-seq on the output of read before I send it to eval
23:46	Chouser	I bet this has been researched for other lisps
23:46	hiredman	of course it has
23:47	hiredman	man, I wish just turning on java's sandbox stuff made it all ok
23:47	hiredman	but people can still pee in the sandbox