#clojure – 2008-12-12

2008-12-12

04:14	AWizzArd	Moin moin
04:17	Lau_of_DK	Hola Senior
04:25	AWizzArd	que tal?
04:57	Bracki	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map
04:57	Bracki	So how do I get a Map from {}?
05:08	Chousuke	Bracki: are you running the release version of clojure?
05:09	Chousuke	Bracki: you'll have to use a more recent version
05:11	Bracki	yeah running svn this very moment
07:12	Kerris7	http://blog.rubyenrails.nl/articles/2008/12/12/calling-clojure-from-jruby
07:12	Kerris7	Clojure + jRuby :o
07:40	Lau_of_DK	Kerris7: Calling Clojure FROM Ruby? Thats gotta give some overhead
07:40	Kerris7	jRuby
07:41	Lau_of_DK	Same
07:42	Chousuke	well, jruby already runs on the jvm so the overhead should be minimal
07:47	Lau_of_DK	I doubt it
07:47	Lau_of_DK	Ruby is grade F material
07:48	Lau_of_DK	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all
07:51	blackdog	well to give ruby it's due it at least showed "enterprise" developers that they'd been duped by complexity for too long
07:55	blackdog	as does clojure
07:58	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: I thought you meant the overhead of combining ruby and clojure :)
07:59	Chousuke	if they'd just get 2.0 out the rubyists might actually save themselves
07:59	Chousuke	1.8 is just meh.
08:00	Lau_of_DK	I might be wrong, but to me it looks like all Ruby is released under the slogan "For noobs, by noobs", like Python
08:07	rhickey	Should be an interesting day in the blogosphere: http://tapestryjava.blogspot.com/2008/12/clojure-hundred-year-language.html
08:09	leafw	rhickey: clojure is becomming what arc was designed for. But I don't think PG cares at all.
08:12	rhickey	I don't think so either. It's quite flattering, but I'm always concerned about not overstating things for Clojure
08:13	Chouser	I think that attitude, as well as standing well clear of general language bashing, have been wise and served Clojure well.
08:14	leafw	as the saying goes: be so good that, even when hated, nobody can afford to ignore you.
08:16	blackdog	i think you're well covered rhickey , as for example ruby backlash is on scalability, you i can't imagine a lot of complaints on the language itself
08:16	blackdog	clojure that is
08:19	octe	what does "#" mean in clojure? i'm looking at the built-in and-macro..
08:20	rhickey	octe: # is a dispatching reader macro, whose meaning is determined by the next character, documented here: http://clojure.org/reader
08:22	octe	thanks, i was looking for a reference for the macro characters :)
08:26	thoughtpolice	apparently android's dx tool does not like the clojure.jar file :(
08:29	thoughtpolice	and i finally got the AOT compiler to work and compile my stuff against android.jar, at least.
08:30	rhickey	thoughtpolice: I only got to try it for a few minutes (dex), and saw one bytecode thing its verify didn't like (but Java's does, as Clojure bytecode does verify). Have you got a specific problem?
08:31	AWizzArd	# can also be a postfix reader macro, as shortcut for gensym.
08:37	AWizzArd	rhickey: yesterday we discussed static typing for some moments. In that regard, do you think that it could make sense one day to have no automatic (empty) implementation for checked exceptions?
08:38	rhickey	AWizzArd: I don't understand
08:39	AWizzArd	As I understand it, in Java there are so called checked exceptions. You are not forced to put a division every time you want to use it into a try/catch block. But with checkey exceptions you have to.
08:39	AWizzArd	checked
08:40	AWizzArd	In Clojure you never have to put anything into a try/catch block I think.
08:40	AWizzArd	Even when you do something that would require such a try/catch block in Java.
08:41	AWizzArd	Or is my understand not correct?
08:41	rhickey	you want checked exceptions for Clojure?
08:42	gnuvince	God no!
08:42	AWizzArd	I don't know, but I would like to hear your opinion (as you have much more Java experience than I have). Could that make sense? Would that help programmers?
08:42	rhickey	Checked exceptions are a horrible misfeature of Java
08:43	AWizzArd	oh, I see
08:45	gnuvince	AWizzArd: it makes no sense to force people to handle exceptions if they don't know how they should handle them; you just end up rethrowing them.
08:46	AWizzArd	Hmm I see. At a first glance it sounded as if this could improve the program safety. The programmer would have to think about her program would continue in an exceptional situation.
08:46	Chousuke	you just end up adding the same boilerplate code every time :(
08:46	AWizzArd	+how
08:46	AWizzArd	I see, didn't know that.
08:47	Chousuke	I'm glad I have strong hair, otherwise I might already be bald from all the hair-ripping I've done when dealing with java exception handling. :)
08:47	thoughtpolice	rhickey: seems to be something like that - http://paste.lisp.org/display/72026
08:47	AWizzArd	The intentions of Sun were good, but practice showed they were wrong.
08:50	thoughtpolice	rhickey: but no real specific question; I was trying to learn clojure so I decided to look around for some java related stuff I could harness from it; might go back to hadoop or something since android no workee :(
08:55	rhickey	thoughtpolice: android is an eventual target, but anything involving bytecode transformation might need work, since many of these tools are looking for the output of javac
08:56	rhickey	thoughtpolice: ok - that's the same thing I saw, will look into it when I get time
08:56	Chouser	wouldn't the dynamic loader that gives applets fits similarly be a problem for android?
09:30	jdz	I think assert macro should accept a message argument so that a message with runtime values (instead of test form) could be generated. something along the lines of this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72027
09:31	jdz	could be used like: (let [n 42] (assert (odd? n) "number should be odd: " n))
09:33	jdz	the addition is too small i don't want to bother the mailing list...
09:33	jdz	somebody with commit rights could commit it; or tell me to bugger off :)
09:33	jdz	(in which case i'd go to mailing list, anyway :)
09:34	Chouser	only rhickey has commit rights
09:34	jdz	fair enough
09:34	jdz	then i send him an email if i don't get flamed too much
09:35	jdz	and if he does not see it here
09:40	RSchulz	jdz: You can do this: (let [n 42] (if-not (odd? n) (throw (new Exception (str "number should be odd: " n)))))
09:40	RSchulz	Not as concise, of course.
09:40	RSchulz	Or you could just write your own "assert2" or some such.
09:41	jdz	and i can have my own extended version of assert, too.
09:41	jdz	but there is a good reason why i think it should be in the clojure.
09:41	jdz	and it's backward compatible.
09:42	jdz	the only question is about the message formatting.
09:42	RSchulz	Like Chouser said, propose it. Rich won't flame you.
09:42	RSchulz	But not here, naturally. On the list.
09:43	jdz	yes, looks like the list is the right place to go after all.
09:44	jdz	no change is small enough not to deserve an extended discussion :)
09:52	hiredman	clojurebot: rhickey?
09:52	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
09:53	hiredman	clojurebot: rhickey is a T-1000 sent from the future
09:53	clojurebot	c'est bon!
09:57	RSchulz	hiredman: You need to teach clojurebot some critical thinking skills...
09:58	hiredman	?
09:58	RSchulz	clojurebot: hiredman is a three-toed sloth
09:58	clojurebot	Roger.
09:58	RSchulz	It's a bit gullible, no?
09:59	hiredman	damn it, you just overwrote the two previous entries for hiredman
09:59	RSchulz	What were they?
09:59	drewr	clojurebot doesn't version?
09:59	AWizzArd	We'll never find out...
09:59	hiredman	clojurebot: hiredman is also slightly retarded
09:59	clojurebot	c'est bon!
10:00	RSchulz	That's an idea. You could give it a syntax (maybe a leading +) that causes it to add to an existing entry.
10:00	hiredman	if you use also, it adds multiple entries to something, and then randomly picks one
10:01	hiredman	clojurebot: hiredman?
10:01	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
10:01	RSchulz	If "also" appears anywhere in the statement?
10:01	hiredman	if also appears after is
10:01	hiredman	is also
10:01	RSchulz	Ah. But your "is also" displaced the previous record.
10:02	hiredman	do
10:02	hiredman	no
10:02	hiredman	is also turn the record into a vector containing multiple records
10:02	hiredman	turned
10:02	hiredman	at lookup one record is randomly chosen from the vector
10:02	danlarkin	clojurebot: hiredman?
10:02	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
10:03	danlarkin	clojurebot: hiredman?
10:03	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
10:03	danlarkin	:o
10:03	RSchulz	clojurebot: braindump
10:03	clojurebot	Titim gan �ir� ort.
10:03	RSchulz	clojurebot: braindump?
10:03	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
10:03	hiredman	spaces
10:03	RSchulz	clojurebot: brain dump?
10:03	clojurebot	brain dump is http://clj.thelastcitadel.com/clojurebot
10:03	RSchulz	Service Temporarily Unavailable
10:03	hiredman	oh
10:03	RSchulz	The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later.
10:04	RSchulz	Damn computers. Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
10:04	hiredman	should be good now
10:04	RSchulz	Still STU
10:04	hiredman	server lost power last night
10:04	RSchulz	There we go.
10:05	hiredman	hmmm
10:05	RSchulz	So the brain dump shows the keys but not the associated answers?
10:05	hiredman	click on the keys
10:05	hiredman	it still shows the old entries
10:05	RSchulz	Slick.
10:05	RSchulz	It looks like plain text, but it's actually super-fancy AJAX...
10:06	RSchulz	The entry you added for rhickey doesn't seem to be there
10:07	hiredman	refresh
10:07	RSchulz	Weird. It's there now.
10:08	hiredman	compojure is running in a different jvm then clojurebot, so it slurps up the clojurebot.is file, that clojurebot writes every, I dunno, maybe ten minutes, or whenever I manually run (dumpdicts) like I just did
10:09	RSchulz	"It's always something."
10:09	rfgpfeiffer	is there a powerset function for sets?
10:10	cemerick	rhickey: this is an interesting development: http://www.bitbucket.org/stefanrusek/xronos/wiki/Home
10:11	RSchulz	rfgpfeiffer: I don't think so. In Clojure Contrib there are some simple set utilities, but I don't see a powerset there.
10:11	RSchulz	rfgpfeiffer: Is there a canonical FP algorithm for computing powersets?
10:12	gnuvince	You can use the binary trick
10:12	gnuvince	that works best with collections with O(1) access time
10:12	rfgpfeiffer	RSchulz: when the set implements seq, then yes
10:13	rhickey	cemerick: I've seen that - no copyright/license etc, still considering a response
10:13	RSchulz	gnuvince: What's "the binary trick?"
10:13	Chouser	rhickey: it claims BSD license
10:13	RSchulz	cemerick: I know what CLR is. What's DLR?
10:14	cemerick	RSchulz: Dynamic Runtime Library, I believe
10:14	rhickey	Chouser: but is it free of Clojure-copyrighted material?
10:14	RSchulz	Which itself runs on the CLR?
10:14	cemerick	yeah
10:14	blackdog	it's what ironpython is based on - an extension to clr
10:14	cemerick	an established way for dynamic languages to hook into the platform, APIs, etc
10:14	Chousuke	RSchulz: dynamic language runtime
10:14	Chousuke	I think :P
10:14	cemerick	ugh, yes, runtime.
10:15	cemerick	Still tired, I guess -- mixing up my R's and L's :-P
10:15	gnuvince	RSchulz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerset#Representing_subsets_as_functions
10:15	RSchulz	gnuvince: Thanks.
10:16	gnuvince	RSchulz: I have a small implementation
10:16	gnuvince	I'll paste it
10:16	cemerick	rhickey: I actually didn't notice the licensing on the Xronos bit -- it's an acceptable usage of clojure, assuming he dots the i's with the license and copyright, yes?
10:16	RSchulz	Great.
10:17	rhickey	cemerick: he can't relicense Clojure as BSD nor leave off copyright notices
10:17	RSchulz	I have Java code for the four basic set algorithms.
10:17	RSchulz	...operations...
10:17	gnuvince	Hmmm
10:17	cemerick	rhickey: sure, that's definitely a no-no
10:17	gnuvince	is paste.lisp having problems?
10:17	blackdog	is it still clojure though? i suppose that'll be the argument
10:17	rhickey	cemerick: that's what it looks like right now
10:17	Chouser	rhickey: spot check on his PHM, looks hand-written and perhaps not even directly translated from Clojure
10:17	danlarkin	blackdog: it only has to be based on clojure
10:17	danlarkin	blackdog: to be a derivative work
10:18	blackdog	ok
10:18	drewolson	hey all, i'm trying to write a lazy prime seive and i thought this was it: http://gist.github.com/35146
10:18	drewolson	but i get a heap exception if i do (nth (primes) 10000)
10:18	gnuvince	RSchulz: http://pastebin.ca/1283606
10:18	drewolson	where do i lose the laziness?
10:18	RSchulz	Thanks.
10:18	RSchulz	How many of these "paste" sites are there??
10:19	cemerick	I'm guessing he's just not aware of the issues around the license and copyright notices, etc. Otherwise, he wouldn't have even specified that it was a derivative of clojure.
10:19	Chouser	rhickey: for example his PHM.seq() appears to copy the entire think into a List.
10:19	Chouser	thing
10:19	RSchulz	gnuvince: Wouldn't it be possible to collaps those two (for ...) forms into one?
10:20	gnuvince	RSchulz: probably; I was still a wet-behind-the-ears Clojurist when I wrote that.
10:20	RSchulz	Anyway, that's cute. Thanks again.
10:20	Chouser	drewolson: http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf
10:21	RSchulz	'Cept where are the individual sets comprising the powerset created?
10:21	drewolson	Chouser: thanks...is the gist of the paper that i haven't actually implemented the "true" algorithm?
10:22	Chouser	drewolson: it's that what you're implementing is much slower than a sieve.
10:22	drewolson	i see
10:22	Chouser	drewolson: just like mine and everyone else's lazy prime sequence.
10:22	RSchulz	Well, it works. I'll have to figure out how. (Don't tell me!)
10:22	drewolson	:)
10:22	drewolson	but i still don't understand how it's not lazy
10:23	drewolson	i guess that's my main question
10:23	Chouser	the paper has an algorithm (in haskell :-P) for a fast lazy prime seq.
10:23	drewolson	oh man, haskell is very foreign to me
10:23	drewolson	i'll give it a shot
10:24	gnuvince	drewolson: get Real World Haskell
10:24	mfredrickson	drewolson: i have a version in scheme if you want it
10:24	Chouser	yeah, I meant to try, but the haskell is pretty impenetrable for me.
10:24	gnuvince	drewolson: http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read
10:25	drewolson	i'm actually less interested in the "true" implementation than why this implementation is not lazy
10:25	drewolson	where did i lose laziness?
10:25	RSchulz	gnuvince: One last thing: It would probably be better if the empty subset that's part of every powerset were '(), not nil, wouldn't it?
10:25	AWizzArd	Chouser: F# is maybe the easier step after Clojure, and only then Haskell.
10:25	Chousuke	RSchulz: do you mean #{}? :)
10:25	drewolson	gnuvince: thanks, i'll check that out
10:25	RSchulz	Well it doesn't return sets, it returns lists.
10:26	RSchulz	user=> (powerset ['a 'b 'c])
10:26	RSchulz	(nil (a) (b) (a b) (c) (a c) (b c) (a b c))
10:26	Chousuke	hm
10:26	Chouser	drewolson: as to why yours is blowing the heap, cgrand just taught me this a couple days ago. I'll find the link...
10:26	Chousuke	are you sure those are lists and not just sequences?
10:26	drewolson	Chouser: great, thanks :)
10:26	RSchulz	user=> (map class (powerset ['a 'b 'c]))
10:26	RSchulz	(nil clojure.lang.LazyCons clojure.lang.LazyCons clojure.lang.LazyCons clojure.lang.LazyCons clojure.lang.LazyCons clojure.lang.LazyCons clojure.lang.LazyCons)
10:27	gnuvince	RSchulz: they're lazy cons
10:27	gnuvince	I guess you just saw that )
10:27	gnuvince	:)
10:28	Chousuke	they should be sets, but that would destroy the laziness I guess :/
10:28	Chouser	drewolson: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/5a543d1a75c5fa28 -- but reading it again, it's a little harder to understand than I remember. feel free to ask more questions. :-)
10:28	RSchulz	The "binary trick" (as implemented, anyway) relies on them being indexable collections.
10:28	drewolson	Chouser: i'm sure i will
10:28	kyleburton	could someone assist me with trying the compile example from: http://clojure.org/compilation?
10:29	kyleburton	when I attempt to call (compile 'app.hello) I get: java.io.IOException: No such file or directory (hello.clj:2)
10:29	kyleburton	though a (require 'app.hello) succeeds (results in nil)
10:30	kyleburton	which I think implies that the classpath is right
10:30	gnuvince	RSchulz: yes.
10:31	gnuvince	RSchulz: there is another recursive way to do it, but I never got my head around it.
10:31	jdz	kyleburton: not really. make sure the [created] 'classes' folder is in classpath, too.
10:31	kyleburton	jdz: will try, thank you
10:31	drewolson	Chouser: wow, that is confusing...sees counter-intuative that storing the result in a let would keep the laziness
10:32	jdz	kyleburton: make sure it is in classpath and exists before compiling.
10:32	jdz	before launching clojure that is
10:32	RSchulz	If I was doing it in Java, I'd probably dump an arbitrary set into an array do the binary trick from there. I'd probably also generate the resulting (sub-)sets on an as-needed basis in the contains(...) and iterator methods. Assuming that would work for the full complement of the Set interface.
10:32	Chousuke	rhickey: about that Xronos thing... the clojure licence is compatible with BSD, isn't it? So providing they add the CPL copyright/licence notices, they could still mix the BSD-licenced code with clojure's CPL code, right?
10:33	kyleburton	jdz: that got me to another error: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: app.hello$_main__1316 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
10:33	jdz	kyleburton: read what i wrote after.
10:33	kyleburton	jdz: it exists, tho I my have neglected to add-classpath...thanks
10:34	jdz	i think Clojure should warn if the classes folder is not in classpath...
10:34	kyleburton	jdz: thank you, it compiled
10:34	rfgpfeiffer	powerset for seqs: http://gist.github.com/35157
10:35	rhickey	Chousuke: anything derived from Clojure must be CPL, it can be combined with anything (except GPL, but that's GPL's choice)
10:35	Chouser	Chousuke: that may be, but the page implies that all of Xronos is BSD, which can only be true if there's nothing clojure-derived in it.
10:36	AWizzArd	aha, that's how it works
10:36	RSchulz	rfgpfeiffer: I didn't realize let's destructuring allowed optional elements via &! That's very cool.
10:37	Chousuke	Chouser: I suppose that need to be investigated.
10:37	Chouser	RSchulz: the one thing named after & is bound to a seq
10:37	AWizzArd	I think you can binding and destructuring is everywhere the same, in defn, fn, let, binding, with the exception of def
10:37	danlarkin	It could just be a clean room re-implementation of clojure
10:38	AWizzArd	RSchulz: Like &rest in Common Lisp.
10:38	RSchulz	Yes. It makes perfect sense, but I don't think I've seen it before or thought of it. It's good to know, obviously.
10:38	Chouser	binding does not support destructuring
10:38	RSchulz	Right. But does CL allow arbitray lamba lists in its let forms?
10:38	AWizzArd	ok, so binding and def are special in that regard then
10:38	drewolson	rfgpfeiffer: my brain hurts, but very cool
10:38	jdz	RSchulz: there is destructuring-bind
10:39	AWizzArd	RSchulz: CL does not do implicit destructuring if you mean this. There is.. what jdz said.
10:39	RSchulz	In CL, you mean. I think I remember that, now.
10:40	rhickey	danlarkin: this doesn't seem clean room: http://www.bitbucket.org/stefanrusek/xronos/src/tip/System.Xronos/Language/
10:41	blackdog	quite up to date though with atom and swap!
10:41	Chouser	rhickey: I'm not sure. The contents of the files seem very weakly informed by Clojure, if at all.
10:41	rhickey	Chouser: I agree, to the point of missing the point of persistent data structures in many cases
10:42	Chouser	yes
10:42	gnuvince	What does a right arrow -> indicate in maths? Implies?
10:42	danlarkin	gnuvince: if
10:42	rhickey	At some point there may be a proper targeting of the CLR from Clojure officially, making that effort moot
10:43	Chouser	rhickey: such that your objection, if any, should be over the mis-use of the name Clojure more than the mis-use of CPL code.
10:43	RSchulz	rhickey: How much attention have you paid to making a CLR-based Clojure possible?
10:43	Chouser	s/should/could almost/
10:44	Chouser	RSchulz: early versions of Clojure targetted both JVM and CLR
10:44	Chousuke	RSchulz: if you look at the SVN history, there once was one :p
10:44	RSchulz	Just like Scala, yes?
10:44	RSchulz	(In that one regard!)
10:47	AWizzArd	maybe in 1-2 years someone will start a Clojure version for .net
10:48	rhickey	RSchulz: a CLR version is definitely possible, sans generics
10:49	Chouser	this looks less clean room: http://www.bitbucket.org/stefanrusek/xronos/src/tip/System.Xronos/Reader.cs
10:49	rhickey	heck, Chouser's got it running in JavaScript!
10:49	RSchulz	I guess that's a good thing. Did targeting the intersection of the two virtual machines impose any extra constraints on the language design?
10:49	Chouser	for example, see line 19 and compare to line 44 of LispReader.java
10:50	rhickey	RSchulz: the object models are almost identical
10:50	RSchulz	That's trippy. Maybe when Chrome, with its supposedly super-fast VM, is mature, we can run Clojure directly in the browser.
10:50	RSchulz	Actually, that's extremely cool.
10:51	blackdog	RSchulz, all major browsers except IE have the same performance characteristics in the latest betas
10:51	blackdog	in fact webkit is fastest right now i believe
10:51	RSchulz	So Bill C's claim that CL is the Borg of languages will have to be supplanted by Clojure being the Borg of all languages. The one, true, universal programming language. All hail Clojure!
10:51	rfgpfeiffer	RSchulz: my browser has a java plugin
10:52	RSchulz	Given that JS VMs are only getting started, one can expect considerable improvement over the next few years. All very good.
10:52	blackdog	and Chouser's version compresses to 20K or so, so it's looking good
10:52	RSchulz	Yeah, but the impedance mismatch of the Java browser plug-in makes it far from a good solution for most BBIs.
10:54	rfgpfeiffer	is it possible to make applets with clojure now?
10:54	Chouser	rfgpfeiffer: almost. :-)
10:56	rfgpfeiffer	is the applet class loader the problem?
10:57	AWizzArd	Maybe when applets work one can also write JavaFX apps.
10:57	Chouser	I think the problem is the security restrictions preventing Clojure from creating its own classloader.
10:58	rhickey	http://richhickey.backpackit.com/pub/1597914
10:59	rhickey	clojurebot: todo?
10:59	clojurebot	todo is http://richhickey.backpackit.com/pub/1597914
10:59	rhickey	Version 1.0 punch list there too
11:01	RSchulz	rhickey: Does the isa? implementation use a fast subtype hierarchy test? Or does it traverse the inheritance DAG?
11:02	rhickey	RSchulz: it caches lookups
11:02	rhickey	so fast
11:03	RSchulz	Does it cache both positive and negative results on a argument-pair (per hierarchy) basis?
11:04	stuarthalloway	morning all
11:04	gnuvince	Hi stu
11:04	RSchulz	Hi stuarthalloway. Shouldn't you be writing something??
11:04	rhickey	RSchulz: see MultiFn.java
11:04	RSchulz	rhickey: OK.
11:05	stuarthalloway	not working on the book today -- I am porting the macro chapters of "On Lisp" into Clojure
11:05	danm_	nifty
11:05	stuarthalloway	and I have hit a snag :-)
11:05	Chouser	stuarthalloway: others have started on that -- not sure how far they've gotten.
11:05	stuarthalloway	when learning, it is ok to reinvent the wheel
11:06	Chouser	indeed
11:06	stuarthalloway	but here is my question
11:06	stuarthalloway	pg has a variant of when-let that does not introduce a genysm for the bound symbol
11:06	stuarthalloway	Clojure
11:07	stuarthalloway	introduces a symbol (temp#) presumably to prevent double-evaluation
11:07	mchurch	I've got a question about the Clojure runtime. I know that SBCL's reader interns a symbol when it encounters it. Clojure seems not to do this; am I correct?
11:07	RSchulz	How come every question I ask here is answered five minutes later as I listen to rhickey's Clojure for Lisp Programmer's talk?
11:08	rhickey	mchurch: kind of a trick question as CL's symbols are more like Clojure's vars, but yes, no interning by the Clojure reader
11:08	stuarthalloway	but I cannot craft a scenario where this can possibly happen, because the destructuring kicks out anything that isn't a literal (line 2283 of core.clj)
11:09	stuarthalloway	RSchulz: and I double-dare you to find the video where rhickey has already answered my question :-)
11:09	Chouser	stuarthalloway: you're talking about his 'when-bind' ?
11:09	stuarthalloway	Chouser; yes
11:09	rhickey	paste please
11:09	stuarthalloway	rhickey: me?
11:10	rhickey	stuarthalloway: yes please
11:10	mchurch	rhickey: Ok, great. The reason I am asking is that I'm writing an RPC engine in multiple languages, and on the Lisp side, I have to serve out a package so as to avoid interning a bunch of garbage symbols.
11:10	Chouser	stuarthalloway: his doesn't double-evaluate -- do you need the capturing effect or something?
11:11	mchurch	Which would, over the long term, have the effect of a memory leak. So you're saying that there's no need to worry about that with keywords/symbols, because an uninterned symbol will stay uninterned?
11:12	stuarthalloway	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72036
11:12	rhickey	mchurch: there's no such thing as an interned symbol, per se
11:13	Chouser	rhickey: are keywords not interened somewhere?
11:13	stuarthalloway	sorry so slow -- when I tried to choose #clojure at paste.lisp.org something went sideways
11:13	stuarthalloway	Chouser: pg
11:13	stuarthalloway	(damn fat fingers) pg version expands ,var twice
11:14	stuarthalloway	Clojure version avoids this, but I cannot see when it would be a problem
11:14	rhickey	Chouser: yes, keywords are, but not in a package. In CL, if you read (a b c) in 10 different packages you'd have 30 interned symbols, in Clojure 3 interned strings (the names of symbols are interned) and no lingering symbols
11:15	Chouser	but that's just then name. Clojure uses temp# I think for destructuring.
11:15	Chouser	rhickey: ok.
11:15	stuarthalloway	Chouser: convince me with a scenario where temp# is needed
11:15	mchurch	rhickey: So if the RPC engine gets hit with garbage keywords, there will be memory bloat?
11:16	Chouser	stuarthalloway: (defn foo [x] (when-let [[a b] x] (list a b)))
11:16	rhickey	mchurch: they'll hang around, yes
11:17	mchurch	rhickey: Ok, got it. Is there any way to get rid of them to trim the memory footprint?
11:20	Chouser	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72038 -- pg's when-bind
11:20	mchurch	I'm thinking about an engine with a lifespan of years, receiving many calls, so there's a lot of time for garbage to accumulate in the event of error.
11:22	rhickey	mchurch: it would probably require some kind of weak references on my end, would have to think about that
11:25	stuarthalloway	Chouser: why not http://paste.lisp.org/display/72038#1? No temp#
11:28	stuarthalloway	My contention is that the temp# if only needed if you can make the name side of the binding form have side effects
11:28	stuarthalloway	which my simple efforts have failed to accomplish because line 2283 of core.clj throws out any form that could possibly make trouble
11:29	Chouser	stuarthalloway: very good -- you've proved my example was insufficient. :-)
11:29	Chouser	Try this: (when-bind [[a & b] [1 2]] (list a b))
11:30	Chouser	so not a side-effect, but an expression that's a valid binding form but not a valid evaluation form.
11:30	stuarthalloway	Chouser: terrific, thanks!
11:34	RSchulz	I thought you weren't writing today?
11:35	stuarthalloway	RSchulz: have absorbed more info from Chouser, must make changes :-)
11:36	stuarthalloway	actually I am going to have to draw a line somewhere. Does the issue we were just discussing really belong in a 225-250 page intro book?
11:37	RSchulz	What's the page limit you're operating under?
11:37	Chouser	you're not going to make it in under 250 pages, are you?
11:37	stuarthalloway	much past 250 would change details for the publisher
11:37	RSchulz	I think you should try to beat the Programming Scala book. It's 736 pages...
11:37	stuarthalloway	they're agile, they can deal, but they'll need to hear the voice of readers
11:37	Chouser	By my count, 211 pages with 5 chapters to go.
11:38	danm_	736.. haha
11:38	RSchulz	I kid you not!
11:38	stuarthalloway	like beloved reviewers clearly saying "book must have more coverage of X, Y, Z...." :-)
11:38	blackdog	but clojure is succinct :P
11:39	acieroid	Hi
11:39	hiredman	RSchulz: but how much of that is just the type system?
11:39	stuarthalloway	I can't believe how inept I felt at Scala after reading those 736 pages. So ... much ... stuff ... I hope readers of the Clojure book won't feel that way.
11:39	RSchulz	Yeah. That Scala... It's rococo
11:39	Chouser	stuarthalloway: to answer your question, I don't know that it does.
11:39	acieroid	what's the equivalent of lisp's append function with clojure ?
11:40	RSchulz	acieroid: into
11:40	RSchulz	(doc into)
11:40	clojurebot	Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined.; arglists ([to from])
11:40	acieroid	thanks
11:40	acieroid	nice bot :D
11:40	RSchulz	Keep in mind that depending on kind of collection given, the position of the added entries will vary.
11:40	RSchulz	Thank hiredman for that.
11:40	RSchulz	clojurebot: hiredman?
11:40	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
11:41	duck1123	clojurebot: botsnack
11:41	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
11:41	RSchulz	I still think we're spoiling clojurebot.
11:41	Chouser	stuarthalloway: for it to matter, you'd need to (a) be writing a macro that (b) binds a form that is (c) user-supplied that (d) uses destructuring.
11:41	hiredman	clojurebot: could you explain the nature of your creator?
11:41	clojurebot	excusez-moi
11:41	hiredman	hmmm
11:42	Chouser	stuarthalloway: and having lept those hurdles, you get a relatively clear "Unable to resolve symbol: &" error which can be resolved with one extra 'let'
11:43	Chouser	stuarthalloway: but clearly the book must have more coverage of seque. :-)
11:44	rhickey	seque?
11:44	Chouser	(doc seque)
11:44	clojurebot	Creates a queued seq on another (presumably lazy) seq s. The queued seq will produce a concrete seq in the background, and can get up to n items ahead of the consumer. n-or-q can be an integer n buffer size, or an instance of java.util.concurrent BlockingQueue. Note that reading from a seque can block if the reader gets ahead of the producer.; arglists ([s] [n-or-q s])
11:44	RSchulz	Those funky "human transporters."
11:44	Chouser	rhickey?
11:44	rhickey	Chouser: I know what it does, just questioning its inclusion
11:45	rhickey	is it really in there?
11:45	rhickey	in the book?
11:45	Chouser	oh! just a joke. Having no coverage of seque is entirely appropriate.
11:45	rhickey	right
11:45	rhickey	whew!
11:45	Chouser	:-)
11:46	rhickey	just skimmed the macro section - I'd rather implement macros than explain them
11:46	Chouser	I carefully used exactly the same working as stuarthalloway's earlier commend about "beloved reviewers" and also added a smiley.
11:47	Chouser	yes! my blog post on 'doseq' was torture for me -- probably for readers as well. :-P
11:49	rfgpfeiffer	rhickey: should the datalog from your todo be implemented in clojure
11:50	rhickey	rfgpfeiffer: wrapper on http://iris-reasoner.org/ would be interesting too
11:52	rfgpfeiffer	seque would make writing a parallel prolog solver in clojure very easy
11:52	RSchulz	Does IRIS use a sound unifier?
11:53	clojurebot	svn rev 1155; check for static field in classname/fieldname
11:54	gp	is eval the actual cloujure-interpreter? im doing genetic programming in both clojure and python and pythons eval seems somewhat limited, i cant def functions for example
11:55	gp	why does: (eval '((defn sq [x] (* x x)) (sq 12))) return 20736 (=12^4)?
11:55	Chouser	gp: there is no clojure interpreter.
11:55	gp	compiler?
11:55	gp	i thought interactive == interpreted
11:55	Chouser	yes, eval will compile and evaluate the expression.
11:56	mehrheit	gp: you call the function two times there
11:56	Chouser	I know, it's cool, right? Each thing you type at the repl is complied to bytecode on the spot and handed off to the JVM to run.
11:57	mehrheit	gp: (F ...) is a function call, defn returns the defined function (the var more exactly, but the behavior is the same in this case) which occurs in the function position of the list you pass to eval
11:57	mehrheit	gp: so you get (sq (sq 12))
11:57	gp	ah i see (eval '((defn sq [x] (* x x)) 12))
11:58	mehrheit	gp: it should probably be (do (defn sq ...) (seq 12)), since do sequences operations
11:58	mehrheit	err, s/seq/sq
11:58	hiredman	or use fn instead of defn
12:05	gp	hmm i cane val anything it seems so it is more complete than pythons eval
12:05	Chouser	gp: python splits expressions and statements. Clojure does not.
12:08	Chouser	gp: to work with python statements you'd have to use compile() and have to specify 'exec', 'eval', or 'single'
12:09	rfgpfeiffer	gp: eval is a function that evaluates expressions, so it can be used in another expression
12:09	rfgpfeiffer	gp: exec is a statement
12:12	gp	i see
12:13	gp	single?
12:21	gp	i found out
12:21	gp	well it seems Python complicates that part a lot. I did genetic algorithm in python but seems for genetic programming lisp is the sh*t
12:36	Pupeno	Hello.
12:37	Pupeno	what do we have in terms of unit-testing frameworks?
12:42	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno: Kotarak is working on something, check the GoogleGroup
12:45	Chouser	there's clojure.contrib.test-is
12:47	stuarthalloway	Pupeno: I have been playing with Fact today: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72042
12:47	stuarthalloway	Description of Fact: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/193023afbf87698d
12:47	stuarthalloway	I hope to post a blog entry later explaining that example
12:49	mchurch	Does Clojure have a TRACE facility?
13:06	danlarkin	mchurch: there's one in contrib and IIRC there was one posted to the group recently too
13:11	danlarkin	Pupeno: I like clojure.contrib.test-is
13:12	durka	mchurch: clojure.contrib.trace
13:12	durka	defn --> deftrace
13:17	notyouravgjoel	Am I doing anything wrong by running "java -cp jline-0.9.94.jar:clojure.jar jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.lang.Repl"? the current directory has bothy jline-0.9.94.jar and clojure.jar
13:22	notyouravgjoel	ughhhh
13:22	notyouravgjoel	nm
13:34	RSchulz	notyouravgjoel: What platform do you use?
13:35	notyouravgjoel	got it fixed =)
13:35	notyouravgjoel	but, for reference, I'm on windows right now
13:35	RSchulz	OK. But if you're on Linux (or maybe Mac, too), I recommend rlwrap over jLine.
13:35	RSchulz	Probably rlwrap works on Cygwin, too, but I don't really know.
13:57	AWizzArd	In there something like CLs integer-length in Clojure/Java?
13:57	AWizzArd	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
14:02	rfgpfeiffer	logarithms?
14:02	rfgpfeiffer	base 2
14:03	AWizzArd	There is an example implementation in the HS.
14:04	AWizzArd	But maybe Java already has something like that.
14:13	acieroid	hum
14:13	acieroid	with other lisps than clojure, when there is an error on the evaluation, slime put the error buffer on the screen
14:13	acieroid	but not with clojure
14:14	acieroid	so I have to C-x b every time :x
14:15	drewr	That might not be implemented yet.
14:15	acieroid	ok
14:18	acieroid	what's the default namespace ?
14:18	drewr	There isn't really one. I suppose user is the closest thing.
14:19	acieroid	but, if I use in-ns, and then try to use a simple function like +, it doesn't work
14:19	hiredman	acieroid: you need to refer clojure.core
14:19	acieroid	ah
14:19	acieroid	I tried clojure, not clojure.core
14:20	hiredman	(clojure.core/refer 'clojure.core)
14:20	hiredman	it got renamed
14:20	acieroid	yes, thanks
14:20	drewr	Ah, yes. The clojure namespace. :-)
14:23	acieroid	clojure is very nice btw, I really like it :)
14:28	drewr	acieroid: I do too.
14:34	gp	clojure is the shiznit
14:51	gp	if i wrap loops will the vars be reassaisned then?
14:53	gp	or i have to recur back to the oute rloop hmm
14:59	stuarthalloway	On Lisp -> Clojure, chapter 7: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/12/12/on-lisp-clojure-chapter-7
14:59	stuarthalloway	feedback welcomes
15:00	stuarthalloway	JavaScript library that syntax-colors Clojure correctly would also be very welcome
15:01	Chousuke	well there's one used on clojure.org ... I remember seeing the config for that somewhere :/
15:01	Chousuke	unfortunately I don't remember WHERE.
15:06	billc	stuarthalloway: Have a look at the Clojure site's one: http://clojure.org/file/list (clojure.js, code_highlighter.js, et al)
15:06	stuarthalloway	billc: thanks, will do
15:06	clojurebot	svn rev 1156; fixed tagToClass for chars
15:54	danm_	is merge the appropriate way to update a map?
15:55	drewr	danm_: It's how I do it. You can use conj too.
15:55	danm_	to associate a key with a different value?
15:56	drewr	Sure.
15:56	drewr	user> (conj {:foo 1} {:foo 2})
15:56	drewr	{:foo 2}
15:56	danm_	ok
15:56	danm_	thanks
15:56	danm_	I suppose I could have typed that at the repl
15:56	drewr	;-)
15:57	danm_	I'm trying to create an in memory database, and I can't help but feel as though I'm fighting the current, so to speak
15:57	danm_	side effects, oh my
15:58	drewr	Paste some code and maybe we can help.
15:59	drewr	http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure
16:00	danm_	thanks
16:03	danm_	hmm, goes to http://paste.lisp.org/submit and it's a blank screen
16:03	danm_	no actibity
16:03	danm_	activity :P
16:03	Chouser	yeah, sometimes the channel-assignment thing breaks. go back and choose "none"
16:03	danm_	ok
16:03	Chouser	then post the url here manually
16:04	danm_	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72062
16:04	danm_	thanks
16:06	danm_	dq is a structmap
16:06	danm_	emacs gets really slow when I run that function 2230times ;)
16:07	Chouser	you can use 'alter' there, instead of 'ref-set', or probably even 'commute'
16:08	danm_	obviously, have a few things to learn about refs and such
16:08	danm_	thanks
16:08	drewr	You can also use (dq :date). Maps are funcallable.
16:10	Chousuke	or (:date dq) ;)
16:11	danm_	drewr: ahh, sweet
16:11	danm_	(apply list (line-seq buf))
16:12	danm_	where buf is a buffered reader reading an input stream from a url
16:12	danm_	is there something braindead about doing it that way?
16:12	Chouser	no, but why stick it in a list?
16:12	drewr	line-seq already returns a seq, which means you can do all sorts of things that listy.
16:13	drewr	that are
16:13	danm_	well, because when the function returns the stream gets closed
16:13	danm_	with-open
16:14	drewr	Hm. I had that issue with a ResultSet macro the other day.
16:14	drewr	I ended up doing (into {} (resultset-seq ...)) to accomplish the same thing.
16:15	danm_	thanks for the help
16:16	triddell	Is there a library/approach in clojure for creating xml? Groovy has a builder syntax which make is very easy to generate xml/xhtml and I wanted to port some of this to clojure.
16:18	clojurebot	svn rev 1155; check for static field in classname/fieldname
16:18	clojurebot	svn rev 1156; fixed tagToClass for chars
16:18	hiredman	grrr
16:18	gp	One thing I find annoying with dynamic languages is that I find a need to dicument types. like I might want a descriptive name but to really describe what should be passed then I need ridiculous names for variables like all-vars-all-values-vector-map
16:19	drewr	gp: metadata.
16:19	Chouser	or comments
16:19	Chouser	or doc strings
16:19	hiredman	"pass in whatever works"
16:19	drewr	Or DWIM. :-)
16:20	triddell	also, to clarify, when I said "port", I meant port existing code that used this Groovy feature to clojure, not port this functionality to clojure (if something like it doesn't exist)
16:21	gp	(defn f "docstring" [args] ...) right? where do i stash metadata?
16:22	drewr	triddell: There's no xml-generating code yet that I know of. I've made my own around javax.xml.
16:22	drewr	It'd be great to have something functional that's standard.
16:23	gp	is there a way to have default/optional arguments? like in python def f(x,y=10): ...
16:24	triddell	drewr: thanks, I hadn't seen anything yet (in irc or on the list) but I also wasn't really looking until now
16:24	drewr	gp: Look at http://clojure.org/special_forms
16:25	drewr	gp: For the metadata, not for default args.
16:25	drewr	(defn foo #^{:bar :baz} :quux)
16:26	mfredrickson	clojurebot: keyword arguments?
16:26	clojurebot	keyword arguments is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/51bb53ca077154f8
16:26	mfredrickson	gp: see clojurebot
16:27	mfredrickson	others can confirm, but clojure maintains Java's function call interface, so no keywords/defaults
16:28	mfredrickson	you could roll your own ruby style by passing in a hash as the last argument by convention
16:31	Chouser	triddell: there are a few ideas mentioned here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/ab7a6a7a14575a96/55565925939312b3
16:31	Chouser	triddell: here's one http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-html/tree/master
16:32	Chouser	there are other ones around... one in webjure, another in compojure.
16:33	Chouser	the thing is, it's pretty easy to write a simple, slow, weakly-featured template library in Clojure, so many of us have done just that. :-/
16:33	triddell	I'll check those out. thx
16:36	AWizzArd	Chouser: this posted example uses a template engine that went wrong, like so many others.
16:37	AWizzArd	Because it allows you to put code into the template.
16:37	AWizzArd	This means that people will do it.
16:38	hiredman	I really like compojure's html generating dingus
16:38	Chouser	AWizzArd: The only way to avoid that is with a new non-clojure language, right?
16:38	AWizzArd	Rifes engine for example has really no logic at all embedded, not even presentation logic, which is a fine thing imo.
16:39	hiredman	you make vectors and (html ...) turns it into html
16:39	AWizzArd	that would all be done in Clojure, presentation logic and business logic
16:40	AWizzArd	hiredman: that would be okay, to have s-expressions instead of the html stuf
16:40	AWizzArd	although s-expressions are only a subset of what html can do. But usually for most cases this should be okay.
16:41	AWizzArd	Chouser: well, html already is something different than Clojure. I just mean I want not a single bit of logic inside the templates, which should be... templates.
16:43	hiredman	you could do that with compojure's (html ...)
16:44	AWizzArd	when writing strings you mean?
16:44	hiredman	make a function returns a template with a bunch of vars in it, and wrap it in a binding
16:44	AWizzArd	oh I see
16:44	hiredman	AWizzArd: html == strings
16:44	hiredman	what are you talking about?
16:45	AWizzArd	I first thought you were talking about s-expressions being a subset of, dunno, "html-expressions"
16:45	AWizzArd	but that would still not be the right thing, because then template stuff would be in the code
16:45	AWizzArd	in the function that emits templates
16:45	hiredman	...
16:46	AWizzArd	No template stuff in the code, no html in the code ever, no logic in the templates. I think this is the most clean way to do it.
16:47	hiredman	it will, infact, emit html
16:47	hiredman	not templates
16:47	hiredman	compojure's (html ...) takes a vector and emits html (also there is (xml ...))
16:47	gp	if i ant toloop over a range and for each loop conj somethig to a vector, which construct do you use then? loop-recur or reduce?
16:48	AWizzArd	hiredman: I don't say that this is a bad thing. I just think this is not the best way to do it. The Pretty Home Page language (php) started off like that. It was their killer feature to be able to have code in the html. Soon this made things more and more complicated, and frameworks like smarty (and others) were developed, to go away from this direction.
16:49	hiredman	AWizzArd: oh, compojure is not like at all
16:49	hiredman	there is no code in the html
16:49	hiredman	there is not html, until you run (html ...) on a vector
16:49	hiredman	then you just have this string of html
16:49	AWizzArd	I see
16:50	AWizzArd	although you can't compose all valid html strings with it
16:50	hiredman	(defn tpl [] (html [:html [:head] [:body foo]]))
16:51	hiredman	then (binding [foo "something"] (tpl))
16:51	AWizzArd	yes, nicer than pure html for many things
16:51	hiredman	for just about everything
16:51	hiredman	html bites
16:51	triddell	I just looked at the html library in compojure and I think that will do what I need. I don't need templates... just need to code generate xhtml/xml dynamically from existing data.
16:52	AWizzArd	hiredman: could it also do something like <B>Hello <I>people from</B> New York</I> city.
16:52	mehrheit	isn't that invalid?
16:52	AWizzArd	for xml invalid
16:52	AWizzArd	for html it's okay
16:53	mehrheit	weeh
16:53	hiredman	AWizzArd: but you can get the samething by doing it sanely
16:53	AWizzArd	yes
16:53	AWizzArd	and it's rare
16:53	hiredman	so what is the point of the garbage?
16:54	AWizzArd	Just an example that html can express more than s-expressions.
16:54	AWizzArd	In 99% of the cases it's tons of boilerplate code, to explicitly have this closing tag. But for rare cases it allows some more expressivity.
16:55	hiredman	...
16:55	hiredman	how?
16:55	AWizzArd	As in the example that I gave above.
16:55	hiredman	how is doing it that way more "expressive" then doing it the sane way?
16:55	AWizzArd	How is Clojure more expressive than coding assembler?
16:56	AWizzArd	of course, they all can produce equivalent results
16:56	mehrheit	in one way, by imposing certain rules, so that you cant express insane things
16:57	hiredman	anyway
16:57	mehrheit	and therefore have more space for useful things
16:57	hiredman	good lick with that
16:57	hiredman	luck
16:58	hiredman	ugh
17:02	AWizzArd	Do you mean space as in number of chars?
17:02	AWizzArd	length of lines?
17:03	mehrheit	basically, yes
17:06	AWizzArd	Well, in that aspect Lisps traditionally also don't shine. The s-expression style needs lots of whitespace in front of where the code usually starts. The strength is really the code=data part.
17:07	AWizzArd	hiredman: this small description already explains more or less all there is about templates in Rife. The logic can hopefully soon be implemented completely in Clojure: http://rifers.org/wiki/display/RIFE/GuideTemplates
17:08	mehrheit	then keypresses would fit better; with a good editor indentation is zero keypresses
17:10	AWizzArd	Yes, that's right. I just mean that it gives us a lot of weakly used space.
17:11	mehrheit	I don't think thats a lot of space
17:12	AWizzArd	okay, that's an opinion
17:14	gp	anyone know a good place where you can host your webapss for free?
17:14	gp	just a small one, dont need any space tos tore stuff, just want show a demo.
17:24	Chouser	my gen'ed class that extends Applet includes this method for no reason that I can find: public void net.n01se.Tree.applyCompoundShape(sun.java2d.pipe.Region)
17:24	Chouser	I can't find it in any of the supers of my class
17:25	Chouser	a web search finds it in docs for java.awt.Window, but java.awt.Window's not in my supers and doesn't appear to actually have that method.
17:44	clojurebot	svn rev 1157; removed sharing in registerConstant
17:51	RSchulz	Chouser: Which JDK version are you using?
17:52	Chouser	java version "1.6.0_0"
17:53	Chouser	I think it may be picking up that method from ComponentPeer, somehwo
17:53	Chouser	somehow
17:53	RSchulz	Applet's got a pretty deep inheritance hierarchy.
17:53	Chouser	yeah, but I searched it.
17:53	RSchulz	I was thinking it might be an implementation-specific thing, like something that comes from a browser tie-in.
17:54	Chouser	(map (fn [c] (filter #(= (.getName %) "applyCompoundShape") (.getMethods c))) (supers net.n01se.Tree))
17:54	Chouser	(nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil)
17:55	Chouser	anyway, I added an :excludes option to genclass and that seems to get me past the security warnings for appletviewer.
17:55	Chouser	...now it just does nothing at all. :-P
17:55	RSchulz	Oddly enough, IDEA's symbol lookup can't find apployCompoundShape (or applyCompound*) anywhere in my 1.6.0_11 JDK.
17:55	RSchulz	(Or even the properly spelled name...)
17:56	RSchulz	Did you really mean 1.6.0_0 ??
17:57	Chouser	java version "1.6.0_0"
17:57	Chouser	OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_0-b11)
17:57	Chouser	OpenJDK Server VM (build 1.6.0_0-b11, mixed mode)
17:57	Chouser	hm... openjdk maybe?
17:58	RSchulz	Do you recall a post you made to the Clojure list in late July, subect "gen-class patch" net.n01se shows up there.
17:58	RSchulz	And here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68406
17:58	Chouser	sure -- that's a domain I use.
17:58	RSchulz	Are you sure this isn't some cruft that's specific to your setup?
17:59	RSchulz	OK. So a red herring then?
17:59	Chouser	ah. yeah, pretty sure.
17:59	RSchulz	But the thing is, that applyCompoundshape would appear to belong to one of your classes, then.
18:01	Chouser	well, gen-class is adding that method to my class, yes. The question is why?
18:01	RSchulz	Perspicacity?
18:01	RSchulz	Or is it perspicuousness?
18:01	RSchulz	The second one.
18:02	gp	rhickey: cant you add sum (reduce + coll) and enumerate(enumerate ["a" "b" "c"] -> [["a" 0"] ["b" 1] ["c" 2]]) to Clojure? i would guess a lot of people have it in their user.clj...
18:02	RSchulz	No. The first one.
18:02	Chouser	gp: enumerate is called clojure.contrib.seq-utils/indexed
18:04	gp	Chouser: cool
18:22	gp	anyone can point to the link with monads in clojure?
18:24	acieroid	hmm, is there a function like lisp's format, to do some showing operations on lists (like (format t "~{~a ~}" '(some list))) ?
18:25	acieroid	(and that can be applied to vectors)
18:27	Chousuke	I think someone was working on an implentation.
18:28	acieroid	m'kay
18:29	Chousuke	http://github.com/tomfaulhaber/cl-format/tree/master here's one
18:30	acieroid	thanks
18:37	ben1	i know a little scheme, but no java; where's the best place to learn clojure?
18:38	acieroid	http://writingcoding.blogspot.com/2008/06/clojure-series-table-of-contents.html is a nice example
18:38	hiredman	you don't have to learn too much java, but you need to learn to read javadoc
18:39	ben1	acieroid: looks good
18:39	ben1	ok, i'll try
18:39	ben1	thanks
18:39	hiredman	http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html
18:40	hiredman	but, uh, you will need some java to read javadocs
18:43	ben1	hmm, for some reason (re-seq #"\\w+" "This string contains some tokens. Yipee!") outputs nil for me
18:43	zakwilson	ben1: I'm a Lisper with no real Java experience and I've been able to pick it up reading the Clojure and Java documentation.
18:43	Chouser	ben1: #"" rules have changed. for recent clojure, don't double-backslash
18:44	ben1	ah i see, thanks
18:45	gp	lol im writing imperative in clojure: (let (let (let (let (let ...
18:46	hiredman	:(
18:46	hiredman	you could most likely move that all into a single let
18:48	karmazilla	can a single macro expand into two defs? my goal is easily defining functions that execute only once regardless of how many times they're called
18:48	hiredman	karmazilla: yes
18:48	Chouser	karmazilla: sure -- wrap a (do ...) around them
18:48	hiredman	^-
18:50	karmazilla	super! thanks
18:50	RSchulz	karmazilla: That, or get Stuart Halloway's Programming Clojure book, where this precise example is covered in detail.
18:51	RSchulz	That book is in pre-release and available in PDF form.
18:51	RSchulz	From Pragmatic Programmers.
18:52	karmazilla	do you remember what the example is called?
18:53	zakwilson	karmazilla: see also the memoization example in the documentation for atoms.
18:53	RSchulz	It is the runonce feature needed for his Lancet (Ant driver) program.
18:54	RSchulz	Section 6.4: "Making Lancet Targets Run Only Once" (page 141 in beta4 of the PDF)
18:56	ben1	why doesn't (map .toLowerCase '("This" "IS" "my" "name")) work?
18:57	RSchulz	.toLowerCase isn't a Clojure function
18:57	RSchulz	Try this: (map .toLowerCase '("This" "IS" "my" "name"))
18:57	RSchulz	Woops!
18:57	RSchulz	Hang on.
18:57	ben1	but (.toLowerCase "fOo") works
18:57	RSchulz	(map #(.toLowerCase %) '("This" "IS" "my" "name"))
18:58	ben1	ok that works
18:58	hiredman	. does some special reader magic
18:58	ben1	so how do i know when i can use ".toLowerCase"?
18:59	RSchulz	.JavaFieldOrMethod is a special form.
18:59	RSchulz	Actually, that's only true of ., not of .stuff
18:59	hiredman	mostly in (.f a) or in any place that turns .f into (.f a)
19:00	hiredman	so you can use .f in ->
19:00	hiredman	maybe the new doto, I don't recall
19:00	RSchulz	What's that? Iget only a missing-glyph symbol.
19:00	hiredman	grrr
19:00	hiredman	an irssi auto replace run amok
19:00	hiredman	->
19:00	hiredman	gah
19:01	hiredman	the arrow deal
19:01	RSchulz	Is that the same thing that turn my less-than into <
19:01	Chousuke	ben1: .foo can only appear as the operator in a form right now.
19:01	RSchulz	Eh? Sometimes I get < when I paste <
19:01	ben1	Chousuke: ok thanks
19:01	Chousuke	ben1: of course, there are macros that make that appear untrue
19:01	hiredman	like (->)
19:01	Chousuke	or doto
19:03	RSchulz	Or ..??
19:03	RSchulz	(..)
19:03	Chousuke	.. is meh.
19:03	Chousuke	-> is better
19:04	Chousuke	though I remember rhickey mentioning that he might implement "auto-memfn" for .forms, so you might eventually be able to use map etc directly with java methods.
19:05	Chousuke	for now, just use #(.foo %) or (memfn foo)
19:13	karmazilla	how do people normally build (as in compile + test + package) clojure programs?
19:15	danlarkin	Hm this is confusing me... javadoc for an object says it should have a method... method is listed when I use (show obj) but when I try (.method obj) it says no matching method found
19:17	Chouser	danlarkin: that error is also used if the arity or arg types don't match.
19:18	danlarkin	Chouser: it has arity zero, http://jparsec.codehaus.org/jparsec2/api/org/codehaus/jparsec/Terminals.html#tokenizer()
19:19	Chouser	hm. Have you tried my 'show' function?
19:21	Chouser	or (filter #(= (.getName %) "tokenizer") (.getMethods (identity org.codehaus.jparsec.Terminals)))
19:23	danlarkin	http://dpaste.com/98647/
19:23	Chouser	wow
19:23	RSchulz	Show is fab!
19:24	danlarkin	confusing right?
19:25	Chouser	(.isBridge (show operators 18))
19:26	danlarkin	false
19:28	Chouser	well, I'm stumped. :-)
19:29	danlarkin	rhickey: care to weigh in?
19:30	jonafan	does clojure have a unit testing framework?
19:31	jonafan	probably a dumb question
19:31	danlarkin	jonafan: clojure-contrib does
19:31	jonafan	cool
19:31	jonafan	i'm trying to decide what language to learn in 2009
19:31	danlarkin	jonafan: clojure :)
19:32	gnuvince_	jonafan: what's on your list?
19:32	jonafan	hehe
19:32	Chouser	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-12-12.html#12:36 -- unit test question
19:32	jonafan	forgive me if i consider your answer some what biased
19:32	jonafan	clojure, erlang, haskell, forth, smalltalk
19:32	gnuvince_	Good choices
19:32	gnuvince_	(though I'd change Forth for Factor)
19:33	jonafan	maybe
19:33	danlarkin	for all the hype that smalltalk gets I really dislike it
19:33	Chouser	jonafan: I started on Scala this year, but that only lasted a couple months. I'll be on clojure for a while...
19:33	gnuvince_	Factor, Clojure and Haskell would be my recommentations.
19:33	gnuvince_	Not necessarily in that order
19:33	gp	how Is Factor interesting?
19:33	gp	Depending on where you come form I think Haskell is the most mindexpanding.
19:34	jonafan	in 2008 i learned ocaml
19:34	Chouser	It'd be useful to be able to read Haskell.
19:34	gnuvince_	gp: many ways: it's a very minimal and powerful language, the implementation is getting extremely good, and it can teach you to think in terms of stacks.
19:34	jonafan	haskell is stricter and has monads, but they are pretty similar languages
19:34	gnuvince_	Haskell is lazier
19:34	jonafan	okay, haskell is lazier
19:34	jonafan	i meant in terms of purity
19:35	gnuvince_	jonafan: in any case, your list is a very good one.
19:35	kib2	no one for Rebol ? it's awesome, really.
19:35	Chouser	jonafan: have you done any lisp before?
19:35	gnuvince_	Any one of those languages is gonna be better than another newbie learning PHP or C.
19:35	jonafan	i had scheme in college
19:35	Chouser	jonafan: Clojure won't take you a year. :-)
19:35	gnuvince_	Clojure would therefore bring something new.
19:35	jonafan	i loved it
19:36	gnuvince_	Try Clojure
19:36	gnuvince_	It's fun :)
19:36	jonafan	yeah, but i don't want to learn it and not use it for anything
19:36	zakwilson	Clojure would be my pick of those for getting things done.
19:36	jonafan	i want to learn it and use it for whatever i feel like coding during the year
19:36	zakwilson	Factor or Haskell would probably twist your mind around more.
19:36	zakwilson	Though that depends on your background.
19:37	gnuvince_	jonafan: Clojure with the huge Java lib would definitely allow you to do things
19:37	jonafan	coming from ocaml, i don't feel like doing haskell yet
19:37	zakwilson	jonafan: Do you have experience with Java?
19:37	jonafan	yeah
19:37	gnuvince_	Go for Clojure ;)
19:38	zakwilson	Yeah, what gnuvince_ said.
19:38	jonafan	i definitely feel like clojure is cooler than erlang
19:38	gnuvince_	Oh definitely
19:38	Chouser	you can probably getenough clojure under your belt by June to be able to dismiss the rest by the end of the year.
19:38	zakwilson	What you already know about the Java lib, classpaths, jars and the like will carry over.
19:39	Chousuke	clojure is probably somewhat a gentler introduction to FP than haskell
19:39	gnuvince_	I don't think he needs an intro
19:39	gnuvince_	he knows OCaml
19:39	jonafan	and scheme
19:39	Chousuke	ah, well that'll do
19:39	zakwilson	If you know OCaml, Scheme and Java, it should be very easy to pick up Clojure and start making useful things.
19:39	gnuvince_	jonafan: have you seen my (still incomplete) tutorial?
19:40	jonafan	not yet
19:40	jonafan	i watched a presentation rhickey did and ran some related code
19:40	jonafan	involving some ants finding a path to food
19:41	Chousuke	make sure to use a recent SVN checkout instead of the release version though.
19:41	gnuvince_	yeah
19:41	jonafan	i don't know, i'm still deciding
19:41	gnuvince_	jonafan: his presentations are awesome
19:41	gnuvince_	Anyway, what's the worst that could happen?
19:42	jonafan	the only thing i am concerned about is the relative immaturity of the language
19:42	jonafan	maybe it is fine, but there is no doubt that the other languages are more mature
19:42	gnuvince_	Fear not, it's progressing along very nicely and the implementation keeps getting better at a very fast pace.
19:42	zakwilson	There is that, and breaking changes do happen.
19:43	zakwilson	On the other hand, the Java library is very stable.
19:43	gnuvince_	I can tell you that the Smalltalk experience is somewhat... lacking
19:43	Chousuke	I think most of the breaking changes have already been done
19:43	gnuvince_	Squeak isn't too hot, VisualWorks either
19:43	Chousuke	AOT and gen-class
19:43	gnuvince_	Erlang still has no unicode support.
19:43	jonafan	smalltalk is a language that i have always felt like i should learn
19:43	rhickey	danlarkin: looks like something is lying, probably the JavaDoc? as notice: org.codehaus.jparsec.Lexicon.tokenizer(), but javadoc says derived from Object, no interfaces
19:44	gnuvince_	I don't think Clojure is behind the pack.
19:44	gp	is there no infintiy in Clojure?
19:44	rhickey	danlarkin: i.e. tokenizer is not declared in Terminals
19:44	jonafan	anyway, i'm going home
19:44	gnuvince_	gp: (/ (float 1) (float 0))
19:45	gp	I tried Smalltalk/Squeak once and started ona tutoria but I never really got anywhere, the whole this-language-is-also-an-OS wasn't my thing. Not that I gave it that much time.
19:45	RSchulz	Or, more directly (Float/POSITIVE_INFINITY)
19:45	RSchulz	Likewise for Double
19:46	RSchulz	And NEGATIVE_INFINITY
19:46	gp	I find Clojure to be very mature for its age. When is 1.0 planned anyway?
19:47	zakwilson	Why is (/ 1.0 0.0) not the same as (/ (float 1) (float 0))?
19:47	Chousuke	zakwilson: 1.0 and 0.0 are Doubles
19:47	gnuvince_	What he said
19:47	danlarkin	rhickey: I see
19:47	RSchulz	I agree. Considering its chronological age, Clojure is quite advanced. That's because of Rich's diligence and the platform support provided by the JVM.
19:48	danlarkin	rhickey: but (filter #(= (.getName %) "tokenizer") (.getMethods (identity org.codehaus.jparsec.Terminals))) does return a Method
19:49	mfredrickson	RSchulz: I also think (and this is entirely my opinion) Clojure has _greatly_ benefits from learning from the mistakes of others (CL and Scheme specifically). This is entirely to rhickey and other contributors credit, but let us not forget those that have gone before. :-)
19:49	rhickey	danlarkin: but it is coming from a superclass and it's callability is dependent upon that, if nothing else for troubleshooting I'd need to know the access level of that class/interface etc
19:50	mfredrickson	from my position, Clojure fixes all the little irritations I have with Scheme without being too heavy handed
19:50	mfredrickson	not that I wouldn't like continuations and TCO again.
19:51	Chousuke	heh
19:51	Chousuke	maybe we'll have all that cool stuff in clojure 2.0 someday :P
19:51	mfredrickson	i'm in no hurry
19:51	Chousuke	a lot depends on the JVM too
19:51	mfredrickson	i like the design to choice to leave out broken features
19:52	mfredrickson	Chousuke: my understanding as well
19:53	Chousuke	JVM quirks seem to be the cause of some "warts" in clojure, but I think the benefits are worth a few compromises.
19:54	danlarkin	rhickey: is that information I can provide you? not sure what the access level is/means
19:55	mfredrickson	Chousuke: I think that is basically the value proposition of clojure: a lisp that is willing to make compromises. worse is better while still being better, if you get my drift
19:55	mfredrickson	i realize that could describe a lot of lisps. I need to refine that
19:57	Chouser	gah, Java is frustrating. Staring at the docs to a class, and still don't have any clue how to create one.
19:59	replaca	/win 1
20:00	Chousuke	hmh, maybe clojure is a functional programming language not just in the mathematical sense :)
20:03	mfredrickson	let's see what clojure bot has to say on the matter
20:03	mfredrickson	clojurebot: clojure?
20:03	clojurebot	clojure is a very attractive hammer with a nice heft to it
20:03	mfredrickson	there you are
20:04	gp	Chouser: ol often have the same problem, Java is so ridic bloated. Funny thing it is so well documented and still it is hard to figure out how to do simple stuff like just calling a class.
20:10	Chouser	danlarkin: well, Terminals inherits tokenizer from Lexicon, but that doesn't help me see what's failing.
20:12	Chousuke	gp: I find the problem to be often that while the information is there, it's usually in bits and pieces all over, because when you need to use a class to do something, that class uses other classes, and those use yet again other classes, et cetera
20:12	Chousuke	so you end up having to dig through a lot of documentation.
20:17	rhickey	Chouser: is Lexicon public? Is there JavaDoc?
20:18	gp	Chousuke: yes that was "head on the nail" or how you say it.
20:24	Chouser	I don't see any javadoc for it.
20:25	rhickey	Chouser: how are you looking into this?
20:27	Chouser	what I know about Lexicon: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72076
20:28	Chouser	so clearly the javadoc is lying at least about "extends"
20:29	rhickey	(.getModifiers (identity Lexicon))
20:31	Chouser	0
20:33	rhickey	Chouser: !?
20:33	Chouser	http://paste.lisp.org/display/72076#1
20:34	rhickey	I believe you :), just confused
20:34	danlarkin	0 for me also
20:34	Chousuke	Chouser: is show in contrib or just floating on the web somewhere?
20:34	rhickey	not public, protected or private - must be package?
20:36	rhickey	is the source for this somewhere?
20:36	Chouser	Chousuke: I guess I should put it in contrib.
20:36	Chouser	back in a bit
20:36	danlarkin	rhickey: http://jparsec.codehaus.org/Downloads
20:38	Chousuke	oh crap
20:38	Chouser	clojurebot: show?
20:38	clojurebot	show is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/96ed91f823305f02
20:38	Chousuke	I hope I have backups...
20:38	Chousuke	time machine is a bit quirky sometimes :)
20:38	RSchulz	Why this:
20:38	RSchulz	user=> (.getModifiers java.lang.String)
20:38	RSchulz	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: getModifiers (repl-1:21)
20:39	RSchulz	And this:
20:39	RSchulz	user=> (.getModifiers (identity java.lang.String))
20:39	RSchulz	17
20:40	Chousuke	RSchulz: the former tries to call java.lang.String.getModifiers
20:40	Chousuke	the latter calls .getModifiers on the Class object
20:40	RSchulz	Ah.
20:40	Chousuke	but, hooray, I had backups.
20:41	RSchulz	Still, given what (identity) does, it's perhaps justified that one is surprised by this result...
20:41	Chousuke	well, identity just works around the fact that (.foo Classname) assumes you're calling a static method rather than a method with the Class as the argument
20:42	RSchulz	Yes. But since (identity ...) "does nothing", it's still a bit perplexing.
20:42	rhickey	clojurebot: faq #1?
20:42	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:43	rhickey	clojurebot: faq?
20:43	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:43	danlarkin	clojurebot: FAQ #1
20:43	clojurebot	FAQ #1 is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/8fc6f0e9a5800e4b
20:43	rhickey	RSchulz: ^^
20:43	RSchulz	clojurebot's case-sensitivity is a dubious feature...
20:44	RSchulz	OK. Got it. But it just emphasizes the precariousness of syntactic sugar.
20:47	RSchulz	Clarify, if you will: Does the interpretation of dot / (. ...) depend on whether there's any white-space after it?
20:48	RSchulz	For example, is (. foo could be bar) different than (.foo could be bar)?
20:48	danlarkin	(.method obj) is equivalent to (. obj method)
20:49	Chousuke	so (. foo could be bar) is (.could foo be bar)
20:49	RSchulz	OK. That's one of the more tortured syntactic sugarings, no?
20:49	Chousuke	. should go away ;(
20:50	rhickey	RSchulz: only when you choose meaningless names
20:50	RSchulz	Seriously?
20:50	rhickey	how is it tortured?
20:50	RSchulz	Hmmm....
20:51	rhickey	(. target method arg)
20:51	rhickey	(.method target arg)
20:51	RSchulz	Order matters. A single period and a single space necessitates an alteration of the order of the arguments (punctuation aside)?
20:52	RSchulz	Actually, just the space...
20:52	rhickey	RSchulz: necessitates is pejorative, this is a feature - lispy method call start with the verb
20:52	rhickey	.blah is one symbol
20:53	RSchulz	I certainly don't mean "necessitates" to be perjorative, but it's ... fragile? (That seems more perjorative.)
20:53	Chouser	spaces matter in almost all languages. this really doesn't bother me.
20:53	RSchulz	(But I can't help mention that Clojure has a non-white-space white-space symbol...)
20:54	Chousuke	heh
20:54	rhickey	RSchulz: it's easiest to understand as macrology, .blah is inherently a macro:
20:54	rhickey	user=> (macroexpand '(.getMethods String))
20:54	rhickey	(. String getMethods)
20:54	Chousuke	(.,I,can,mess-you,up)
20:54	RSchulz	Which is to say that . followed immediately (no white-space) by a symbol is a metalinguistic schema.
20:55	rhickey	RSchulz: no, .blah is one symbol
20:55	rhickey	a regular symbol
20:55	RSchulz	Exactly! "I can mess you up." would still be understood as the same as "I,would,mess,you,up"
20:55	RSchulz	I understand, but visual comprehension matters, too.
20:56	Chousuke	so does the reader work so that it reads ".read" and passes the symbol to the reader-macro-magic that transforms it?
20:56	RSchulz	And when a single space combined with a swapping of adjacent symbols yields the same thing, that's a bit ... unexpected.
20:56	rhickey	t u v and tuv are different, big deal
20:57	rhickey	same as all lisps, whitespace delimited
20:57	Chousuke	RSchulz: don't forget about the third dot :)
20:57	RSchulz	How many times have you seen a spurious space before a comma or a period. Did it make you misinterpret the sentence?
20:57	Chousuke	(String.) :P
20:57	Chouser	RSchulz: just don't use (. obj method) format. It's unnecessary.
20:57	RSchulz	I'm inclined to go with that, Chouser
20:58	RSchulz	As long as my cat doesn't hit the space bar while I'm not looking.
20:58	Chousuke	and for static calls/fields, use / :)
20:58	RSchulz	Division?
20:58	Chousuke	no, as in Math/PI
20:58	RSchulz	... That was meant as humor...
20:59	Chousuke	sorry, it's late :p
20:59	rhickey	Cl-USER 6 : 1 > (length '(a.b))
20:59	rhickey	1
20:59	rhickey	CL-USER 7 : 1 > (length '(a . b))
20:59	rhickey	Error: In a call to LENGTH of (A . B), tail B is not a LIST.
20:59	Chousuke	or actually, it's almost morning ;(
20:59	RSchulz	Overloading symbology is necessary / inevitable. And a perpetual source of problems. What can we do?
20:59	RSchulz	Subtex?
20:59	RSchulz	Subtext
20:59	RSchulz	As in http://www.subtextual.org/
20:59	Chousuke	humans are pretty good at handling overloaded meanings though.
21:00	RSchulz	Except when they're not...
21:00	Chousuke	or rather, 1 symbol -> n meanings
21:00	RSchulz	But then, what would life be without puns and double-entendres?
21:01	Chousuke	Most like the majority of words you use have at least two meanings
21:01	Chouser	well, I've got a an applet loading, but I can't get it to draw anything.
21:01	Chousuke	most likely*
21:01	RSchulz	OK, rhickey: Now lets talk about no dotted lists...
21:01	rhickey	RSchulz: I'm not talking about dots anymore tonight
21:01	RSchulz	Just kidding, of course.
21:02	RSchulz	Did you consider talking to SVJUG when you're out here for Java-One? I'm sure they'd welcome you.
21:03	rhickey	I'm putting together my proposals this weekend, will propose for Conference One as well, a free conference on the preceding day
21:03	RSchulz	Free? What? Where? When?
21:03	rhickey	Same venue I think, day before Java One, SF
21:04	RSchulz	But free you say?
21:04	RSchulz	(I have _very_ limited resources.)
21:06	Chousuke	gah
21:07	Chousuke	why is sourceforge not letting me clone clojure-contrib
21:07	rhickey	http://developers.sun.com/events/communityone/
21:07	Chousuke	maybe it thinks all the checkouts are a DoS attempt :P
21:08	RSchulz	$200 doesn't equate to free for me...
21:26	mfredrickson	show of hands: academics using clojure?
21:27	mfredrickson	(I thinking of putting together a conference -- or tagging along on something)
21:35	rhickey	user=> (macroexpand '(.getMethods String))
21:35	rhickey	(. (clojure.core/identity String) getMethods)
21:41	Chouser	hm!
21:42	mmcgrana	nice
21:43	clojurebot	svn rev 1158; force instance member interpretation of (.method ClassName), e.g. (.getMethods String) works
21:44	danlarkin	no more FAQ #1?!
21:45	rhickey	danlarkin: maybe:
21:45	rhickey	user=> (. String getMethods)
21:45	rhickey	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: getMethods (NO_SOURCE_FILE:8)
21:45	Chouser	won't be #1 anymore though
21:46	rhickey	but if people use the preferred .member for instance and class/member for static there should be no confusion
22:04	Chouser	clojurebot: show is clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show
22:04	clojurebot	Ok.
22:12	Chouser	and that's got a 'source' that works better.
22:14	danlarkin	Chouser: woo hoo
22:15	mmcgrana	Chouser: very nice, thanks
22:17	hiredman	one of these days I'll have to grab contrib
22:18	Chouser	hiredman: or you can just write all that code again yourself.
22:18	danlarkin	hiredman: I use it all the time for checking on usage
22:18	hiredman	I have show.clj
22:18	hiredman	from the ml
22:19	danlarkin	conspire takes an ISeq
22:20	danlarkin	WOW what a good joke
22:21	Chouser	heh
22:42	gp	can I use gnuplot with clojure?
22:42	gp	matlab?
22:45	hiredman	I am sure there must be java bindings for both of those
23:18	gp	what is the dfference between #^{:doc... and (defn f "doccing" ?
23:20	Chouser	no diff
23:20	gp	and can :test be used for automatic unit-testing?
23:21	gp	how do I call that?
23:21	Chouser	(doc test)
23:21	clojurebot	test [v] finds fn at key :test in var metadata and calls it, presuming failure will throw exception; arglists ([v])
23:49	gp	the test example on special forms doesnt seem to be working
23:49	gp	i get :no-test
23:49	gp	when doing (test mymax)
23:51	Chouser	(test #'mymax)