#clojure – 2008-11-25

2008-11-25

00:16	arohner	did anyone check out my expectation test post today? Since nobody responded I'm wondering if I'm off base by proposing it in a functional language
00:29	fyuryu	arohner: I think it's pretty cool. I hope it gets added to contrib
00:30	fyuryu	arohner: (unless you want it remain its own thing)
00:30	arohner	no, I was hoping it would be useful
01:43	_Jordan_	My stupid question for today: Why aren't ((fn [] 42)) and (#(42)) equivalent?
01:46	notallama	#(42) is the same as (fn [] (42))
01:47	_Jordan_	notallama: Thanks! As an aside, is there a shortcut for a function that just returns 42?
01:49	albino	Isn't (fn [] 42) a shortcut?
01:49	albino	_Jordan_: you trying to get rid of the argument vector?
01:49	_Jordan_	yeah, but I was pretty sure I saw a shorter way used in a snippet on here once
02:11	hiredman	#(identity 42)
02:14	_Jordan_	hiredman: thanks, that does read better
02:32	Pupeno	Good morning.
02:32	Pupeno	How would you iterate over the keys and values of a map?
02:34	hiredman	map?
02:34	_Jordan_	:)
02:35	hiredman	(seq ...) on a hash map gives you a seq of [key val] vectors
02:35	hiredman	most sequence functions call seq on what you pass in first
02:36	hiredman	so if you (map ...) on a hashmap, the function you map with sees a vector
02:36	_Jordan_	hiredman: I thought you were making a joke about using (map ...) to iterate over a map
02:37	hiredman	I am pretty hilarious
02:37	_Jordan_	lol
02:56	Pupeno	Thanks.
03:08	_Jordan_	in (take-while (complement #{some-value}) coll), is a new set created for every iteration of take-while? (e.g. if some-value never changes, is it better to do (let [v #{some-value}] and call (complement v)?)
03:21	hiredman	uh
03:33	Pupeno	Is there a simple way to concatenate a list of strings?
03:35	Pupeno	ah, (reduce str ...)
03:42	fyuryu	I compile a lib, no exceptions thrown, I see #{my.lib} in the repl, but no files are saved in the classes dir
03:55	fyuryu	1. create dirs: /test and /test/classes, 2. in /test create /test/my/lib.clj. 3 put (ns my.lib) in it 4. enter a directory with existing project and classes directory (eg. /som/proj/classes). 5. run java -cp /test;/test/classes;clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl 6. invoke (compile 'my.lib).
03:56	fyuryu	and class files appear in /some/proj/classes/
04:01	fyuryu	binding compile-path to /test/classes does the job, but why did it work in the first place? /some/proj is not even in the classpath
05:05	Lau_of_DK	Hi guys =)
05:07	danlei`	Top of the morning, Mr. Lau
05:55	Lau_of_DK	Good morning rhickey. I had a question which I almost posted for the group yesterday, but you might have the deciding insight. I made an ant simulator, in many ways similar to yours. One difference was that mine read its sleep times from globals refs (yours used static values). When I profiled the app, I saw that all agents had 2 tasks, getTask() and runTask(). getTask() usually took 80-90% of the available 100% for each thread, causing
05:55	Lau_of_DK	a great performance drop. Even before the first call to render, each thread averaged with 1000 calls to getTask(). Do you have any idea how I can get around this?
05:57	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: sounds like you have a bug
05:59	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: What should I be looking for?
06:01	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: I ask because, it must be that I somehow am not using the STM correctly.
07:59	aperotte	hello all!
08:01	aperotte	I had a quick question. I was trying to define several things in a loop and do it by generating symbols like this (def (symbol (str "test" "123")) (+ 1 1))
08:02	aperotte	which I thought would create a new mapping in the environment for test123 to 2
08:03	Chousuke	I think you need a macro for that.
08:03	aperotte	ok
08:03	aperotte	I created a macro
08:04	aperotte	but then I got an InstantiationError
08:04	Chousuke	though def'ing a lot of generated symbols like that sounds a bit fishy.
08:04	aperotte	ok
08:04	Chousuke	what are you trying to accomplish with it?
08:05	aperotte	I was using a 3d library to create many instances of a sphere
08:05	aperotte	and wanted to name each object in the environment
08:06	aperotte	hmm ... now that I think about it, I could probably use a hashmap
08:07	aperotte	I'd still be generating keys though
08:14	aperotte	Using keywords worked fine
08:14	aperotte	I'm still a little confused as to why using def didn't work though
08:15	rhickey_	aperotte: def is a special operator, not a function
08:18	aperotte	I wanted to be able to do something like this (dotimes i 20 (def (symbol (str "sphere" i)) ("Sphere constructor")))
08:18	rhickey_	aperotte: you could make a macro that emitted defs in a do
08:20	aperotte	rhickey_: It seemed like the problem was that def required that the first thing be a symbol, and not a list that evaluates to a symbol
08:21	aperotte	I wrote this macro:
08:21	aperotte	(defmacro def-sym [sym & body]
08:21	aperotte	(if (symbol? sym)
08:21	aperotte	`(def ~sym ~@body)
08:21	aperotte	`(def ~(eval sym) ~@body)))
08:21	rhickey_	hmm... eval
08:24	aperotte	after defining a ref named spheres containing the empty list
08:24	aperotte	code that looked like this:
08:24	aperotte	(defmacro def-sym [sym & body]
08:24	aperotte	(if (symbol? sym)
08:24	aperotte	`(def ~sym ~@body)
08:24	aperotte	`(def ~(eval sym) ~@body)))
08:24	aperotte	oops, that wasn't corrent
08:24	aperotte	correct
08:25	aperotte	like this:
08:25	aperotte	(dotimes i 20
08:25	aperotte	(dosync
08:25	aperotte	(ref-set spheres
08:25	aperotte	(conj @spheres
08:25	aperotte	(def-sym (symbol (str "sphere" i))
08:25	aperotte	("Sphere Constructor here")))))
08:25	aperotte	gave me an InstantiationError
08:31	Chousuke	aperotte: any reason you need a separate symbol for each sphere?
08:31	Chousuke	aperotte: you could just have a vector of spheres
08:32	aperotte	eventually I am going to have more unique names for each sphere (not indexed) and would like to be able to refer to them by name
08:33	aperotte	the hashmap did work without giving me an InstantiationException
08:33	Chousuke	(def spheres (ref [])) (dotimes [i 20] (dosync (ref-set spheres (conj @spheres (new-sphere i)))))
08:33	aperotte	I just didn't understand why I was getting the exception in the first place
08:33	Chousuke	or just use a map with strings as keys
08:34	rhickey_	aperotte: using do like this is not the way to build up data structures - use map or reduce
08:34	aperotte	ahh, ok
08:35	rhickey_	you won't need a ref
08:36	aperotte	but if I want to be able to add and remove elements later, I would need a ref, no?
08:37	Chousuke	if the set of spheres is to be shared, yes.
08:38	aperotte	if it weren't going to be shared, I would use a var?
08:38	rhickey_	aperotte: It's a bit hard to understand what you are trying to do - why put names into a namespace with def - what code could reference them?
08:39	Chousuke	aperotte: you don't really "add" or "remove" anything though. the sets of spheres you have never change, the ref will only point to different sets over time :)
08:39	aperotte	rhickey_: I apologize, I realize now that using a hashmap is the appropriate thing to do, but I was just trying to understand the exception
08:41	aperotte	Chousuke: haha, yes, I remembered that but I should probably force myself into using the right vocabulary
08:41	rhickey_	ok, so if you are going to have a map as a runtime environment, that will be modified over time, you would put that in a ref, but still would keep you 'modification' logic (creating a changed map), separate from storing it into the ref after change, don't use the ref inside a loop/reduce/map
08:45	aperotte	rhickey: ok, I'll do that, thanks!
08:45	aperotte	Chousuke: Thanks!
08:58	lisppaste8	SnowBuddy pasted "Re-binding in recur" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71016
09:00	SnowBuddy	Quick question. I thought that bindings in recur were done sequentially, but the paste suggests otherwise. The reduce seems to work on the unfiltered sequence rather than the other way around. What am I missing?
09:02	rhickey_	SnowBuddy: nope, parallel: http://clojure.org/special_forms#recur
09:07	SnowBuddy	So what would be a good way to have one binding depend on a previous binding? I know I can do it by restructuring so that it's not done in the recur, but that doesn't feel as clean.
09:09	rhickey_	SnowBuddy: you'll have to use let
09:10	rhickey_	Trampolines for tails calls added: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/3addf875319c5c10
09:19	Chouser	ifn? sounds like some corrupt offspring of defn and if
09:20	rhickey_	Chouser: get your alternative in before it becomes legacy :)
09:21	cemerick	callable?
09:21	Chouser	heh, yeah, I'm useless.
09:21	rhickey_	cemerick: the problem with callable? is Callable
09:21	Chouser	cemerick: not bad, except isn't Callable a Java interface name?
09:21	Chouser	runnable?
09:21	rhickey_	Runnable
09:21	Chouser	:-P
09:21	Chouser	funnable
09:22	rhickey_	argh
09:23	cemerick	rhickey_: the struct mismatch issue is proving very thorny. You had an idea to avoid that, but I'll take a shot if it's not really on your radar.
09:23	rhickey_	Actually, I'm quite happy to leave it out, only there for legacy conversion
09:23	Chouser	and it has to be shorter than (instance? IFn x) to justify its existance.
09:25	rhickey_	cemerick: the hash technique can't be on the fast path, as it could still be wrong. Could do interned concat of field names
09:25	rhickey_	patch welcome
09:26	cemerick	rhickey_: what do you think of interning Defs to begin with (using a thorough .equals), so object identity can continue to be used?
09:27	rhickey_	just include a symbol-illegal separator, like comma, so foo bar and foob ar are different
09:27	rhickey_	with interned strings it's still an identity compare
09:27	rhickey_	just of the strings, not the Defs
09:28	rhickey_	cemerick: interning Defs means another intern table and all of the MT and GC complexity of that
09:29	rhickey_	the string goes in the Def, still space efficient
09:30	cemerick	rhickey_: sure. Q: you threw out the idea of struct-maps becoming classes with the def-ed keys becoming instance fields. Are you really planning on that? If so, I'll wait for it; otherwise, I'll put together a patch.
09:31	rhickey_	I have not thrown that out, just haven't gotten to it - proxy is next up for AOT special handling
09:32	cemerick	by "thrown out", I meant "casually suggested"
09:33	rhickey_	I understood, and I have to say that what's pending is really thinking about it, not simply doing it, so I can't commit that it will happen
09:34	rhickey_	I imagine the concat-of-names will be a very small patch if you are stuck
09:35	cemerick	yeah, it should be cake. I didn't think you would go for that approach, is all.
09:36	cemerick	I'm not stuck, but struct mismatches are happen every 5 minutes when I'm plugging away at running code through a remote REPL.
09:36	rhickey_	of course, it changes the semantics to structural 'type' equality - you might want to ask on the group if anyone is relying on identity type equality for structs
09:38	cemerick	that'd be a little hard to do unless you explicitly carry the def in a slot of your map. PSM doesn't offer a way to obtain its Def.
09:38	rhickey_	could fix by including the struct name in the string, but that isn't passed in right now
09:38	rhickey_	cemerick: right, it's just the error protection semantics that change
09:40	rhickey_	accessor mismatch
09:41	rhickey_	probably a non-problem
09:41	blackdog_away	i just had an error in my user.clj but message was simply that it could not initialise clojure.lang.RT, it would be good to get a more specific error there
09:50	cemerick	rhickey_: is the name at all relevant, anyway? A struct is defined by its keys. The fact that a unique Def is returned by create-struct each time is entirely an implementation detail right now, right?
09:52	cemerick	put another way, I'd expect that two structs with the same set of keys would be interchangeable in every circumstance
10:00	sethtrain	wilkes: should that error handling middleware also handle 404 errors?
10:00	sethtrain	i just built it for 500 but could continue with 404 if needed
10:58	Chouser	Well, I give up. 'ifn?' is fine unless it's sufficient to by default bring in the clojure.lang.I* interfaces, so you could just say (instance? IFn)
10:59	Chouser	I'd suggest allowing (inst? IFn) for brevity, but the only options would be a rename (a breaking change) which isn't worth the trouble, or an alias (both 'inst?' and 'instance?' would work) but I very much dislike aliases.
11:00	Chouser	of that sort, anyway.
11:00	Chouser	So. :-P
11:09	danlarkin	poor rich
11:09	rhickey	:)
11:10	gnuvince	trampoline? The technique to get TCO?
11:10	rhickey	gnuvince: manual tco
11:18	cemerick	rhickey: don't be sad. The fact that the biggest topics are typically bikeshed discussions about naming means that everyone's pretty thrilled with the meat of it all. :-)
11:19	cemerick	The same thing happened with isa?; meanwhile, the multimethod impl is killer.
11:20	rhickey	I'm really happy at how clean a transformation is, just prepend #s on tails and add trampoline to the top-level call
11:21	cemerick	Yeah -- and that's the point. People like to provide feedback, but when the impl is so clean and obviously useful, that energy is channeled to the first obvious point of friction.
11:22	cooldude127	ok what the hell does this error mean: arg literal not in #()
11:22	cooldude127	it's an illegalstateexception
11:22	cemerick	cooldude127: it means you're using '%' outside of an anonymous fn
11:22	cooldude127	oh
11:22	Chouser	cooldude127: you've got a % where you shouldn't
11:23	Chouser	rhickey: I snipe because I care. :-)
11:23	cooldude127	i see, i used a % in a macro name, i guess that's not cool
11:23	cooldude127	which makes sense now that i think about it
11:23	cemerick	yeah, it's reserved by the reader
11:23	cooldude127	i forgot about stuff like %1 and such
11:38	cooldude127	well fuck
11:38	cooldude127	Chouser: i finally tried to port the continuation macros
11:39	cooldude127	i was not lucky
11:39	cooldude127	Can't use qualified name as parameter: clojure.contrib.onlisp/cont
11:40	Chouser	cooldude127: in your macros, use ~'cont
11:40	cooldude127	it looks like clojure is more restrictive on parameters than cl
11:40	cooldude127	well, let's give it a try
11:42	cooldude127	ok that fixed basic functions, i need to try some crazier examples.
11:44	Chouser	nice
11:50	cooldude127	ahh this is not working
11:51	cooldude127	also why do we not have a clojure macroexpand that will do subforms?
11:53	cemerick	cooldude127: macroexpand should fully expand a macro. macroexpand-1 only does the top level
11:54	cooldude127	neither one works on any subforms
11:54	cooldude127	macros inside macros
11:54	cooldude127	for example: (let [f (fn= [n] (add1 n))] (bind= [y] (call= f 9) (return= (str "9 + 1 = " y))))
11:54	cooldude127	everything that ends in = is a macro
11:54	cooldude127	but macroexpand only handles the let
11:54	cooldude127	it stops after that
11:55	cooldude127	we need a macroexpand that actually walks the tree
11:55	cemerick	huh: (doc macroexpand) => "... Note neither macroexpand-1 nor macroexpand expand macros in subforms."
11:55	cooldude127	yeah wtf?
11:55	cooldude127	macroexpand just keeps going until the first element of the form is no longer a macro
11:56	cemerick	There might be a deep macroexpand -- I haven't needed one as of yet.
11:56	cooldude127	i've got so much going on there, a deep one would help me, maybe i'm the only one
11:58	mmcgrana	there is one on the group
11:59	mmcgrana	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/bba604cee3b232d9/28837d55525306d8?lnk=gst&q=recursive+macroexpand#28837d55525306d8
12:09	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gents
12:11	Lau_of_DK	brb
12:16	mibu	hmm, someone tagged the wikipedia article of clojure for deletion last week because it looked like spamcruft. maybe it's time to beef up the entry...
12:35	duck1123	rhickey: Have you thought about getting in touch with Leo Laporte and Randal Schwartz to do FLOSS Weekly?
12:35	duck1123	Clojure is on the list of projects they would like to talk about
12:36	duck1123	http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pYAJMbVobYCTro_z4LGo3ZQ
12:44	gnuvince	duck1123: that would be cool
12:46	danlarkin	aye it would be
12:46	danlarkin	<3 leo
13:38	flonk	anyone good with java.swing?
13:39	flonk	im foing a simple gui and i want a layout like: row1: play stop next prev; row2: text-area the length of 3 buttons, find-button
13:39	flonk	how do i set individual button-sizes?
13:58	Lau_of_DK	Gooooood evening gents :)
14:00	AWizzArd	Hello
14:12	flonk	GridBayLayout might e it
14:12	flonk	but it seems i have to do quite a lot to make it work as i want, is there no really simple way?
14:12	Lau_of_DK	Do what?
14:13	jedediah	flonk: I think you could nest gridlayouts
14:13	flonk	im foing a simple gui and i want a layout like: row1: play stop next prev; row2: text-area the length of 3 buttons, find-button
14:13	flonk	row3: results
14:14	Lau_of_DK	flonk, sounds like a simple job with mig layout?
14:15	Lau_of_DK	(doto panel (.add results "wrap") (.add text-area "span 3, wrap") (.add button1) (.add button2) (.add button3))
14:16	Lau_of_DK	I think if you check out miglayout.com, you'll find a get-started .pdf which has examples just like that
14:16	blackdog_	there's a miglayout lib in clojure.contrib
14:18	AWizzArd	Anyone of you know an easy to use web development framework for Java, that should be straightforward to use from Clojure, ready for commercial development? Rife?
14:18	Lau_of_DK	If such a thing exists, Blackdog will know about it :)
14:19	AWizzArd	something like AllegroServe, but for Clojure
14:28	Lau_of_DK	Has anyone here made any interesting findings, when profiling the STM ?
14:29	cooldude127	wow i can't believe i had never seen MIG layout before
14:31	Lau_of_DK	Miglayout is descent for GUIs, but in my oppinion still a few light years behind qtDesigner
14:35	cooldude127	i have never used qtdesigner before
14:36	cooldude127	what's good about it?
14:38	Lau_of_DK	Which OS are you on ?
14:39	Lau_of_DK	Mr. Dude ?
14:39	flonk	Lau: thanks
14:40	Lau_of_DK	flonk: np
14:42	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: i'm on os x
14:43	cooldude127	sorry i keep irc on a different desktop, i sometimes forget about it lol
14:43	Lau_of_DK	Emacs, you should integrate it into Emacs, keeps things very simple. 4 split window. 1x code, 1x repl, 1x irc, 1x mail :)
14:44	Lau_of_DK	Anyway, if you were on *nix you would already have the designer installed and you could try it out. Its actually about the same quality as Visual Studios GUI editor
14:44	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: i do. i keep emacs on its own desktop full screen
14:44	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: i was browsing the interwebs
14:44	Lau_of_DK	oh... :)
14:45	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: i know that in experience with java gui designers, they usually suck because they generate code, and the generated code is not always good
14:45	cooldude127	is qtdesigner protected from this problem?
14:46	Lau_of_DK	Yes, QtDesigner outputs xml
14:49	AWizzArd	what is the easiest way in Clojure to connect to a (mysql) db?
14:49	cooldude127	Lau_of_DK: oh nice. kind of like interface builder uses nibs
14:53	hoeck	AWizzArd: there is clojure.contrib.sql which uses (shows how to use) jdbc
14:54	Lau_of_DK	hoeck: are you working on anything exciting in clojure these days?
14:55	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: no, not really, except relational algebra
14:56	AWizzArd	danke
14:56	Lau_of_DK	hoeck: whatever that is :)
14:57	Pupeno	Hello.
14:57	hoeck	Lau_of_DK: at least a little bit of fun :)
14:58	Pupeno	> 1
14:58	cooldude127	Pupeno: hello to you as well
14:58	Pupeno	Is there a Clojure REPL on the channel?
14:58	cooldude127	just for some basic math
14:58	cooldude127	(+ 1 2)
14:58	clojurebot	3
14:58	Lau_of_DK	hoeck: good, I'll look it up later :)
14:58	cooldude127	and documentation
14:58	cooldude127	(doc doc)
14:58	clojurebot	Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name; arglists ([name])
14:58	Pupeno	ah, ok.
14:59	Lau_of_DK	(doc map)
14:59	clojurebot	Returns a lazy seq consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments.; arglists ([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls])
14:59	Pupeno	How are the Clojurist doing?
15:00	Pupeno	cooldude127, Lau_of_DK: oh, ok... :/
15:01	Lau_of_DK	Pupeno: ?
15:03	cemerick	hrm, does it try to evaluate any parenthetical form?
15:03	Pupeno	nevermind.
15:03	cemerick	(fooey 5)
15:03	Pupeno	(+ + +)
15:03	cemerick	guess not
15:03	Pupeno	(+)
15:03	Pupeno	(+ 1)
15:03	clojurebot	1
15:03	cemerick	(apply + (range 5))
15:03	Pupeno	(- 4)
15:04	cemerick	odd. where does clojurebot come from?
15:04	cemerick	clojurebot: help
15:04	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:04	cemerick	clojurebot: (apply + (range 5))
15:04	clojurebot	728=8B5?
15:04	cemerick	clojurebot: "fooey"
15:04	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:04	cemerick	clojurebot: 34
15:04	clojurebot	No entiendo
15:04	cooldude127	wtf happened with the apply one
15:04	cemerick	nothing, I guess
15:05	cemerick	clojurebot: #(identity %)
15:05	clojurebot	Huh?
15:05	technomancy	cemerick: hiredman created clojurebot
15:06	duck1123	clojurebot: how much do you know?
15:06	clojurebot	I know 28 things
15:07	Pupeno	hehe.
15:07	cooldude127	clojurebot: what do you know?
15:07	clojurebot	Huh?
15:07	cooldude127	dumbass
15:07	Pupeno	clojurebot: about
15:07	clojurebot	No entiendo
15:07	Pupeno	clojurebot: who are you?
15:07	clojurebot	Titim gan ?ir? ort.
15:07	cooldude127	how many languages does it know?
15:07	Pupeno	clojurebot: who created you?
15:07	clojurebot	Titim gan ?ir? ort.
15:08	cemerick	looks like it's wired for doing math, doc lookups, and a few other things: http://gist.github.com/raw/27733/fdfe3db932a7c95809af00f5147ede4cb2817e67
15:10	Pupeno	Ahg, a spurious parenthesis that accidentally gets balanced can be hard to find on Lisp. I need that Emacs mode that highlight forms. Does it work with Clojure?
15:10	technomancy	Pupeno: yeah, it works fine.
15:10	technomancy	clojurebot: clojure-mode?
15:10	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:11	Pupeno	technomancy: I'm using clojure-mode already3
15:11	technomancy	clojurebot: clojure-mode is an Emacs mode for Clojure, found at git://github.com/jochu/clojure-mode.git
15:11	clojurebot	Alles klar
15:12	technomancy	Pupeno: oh, gotcha. (show-paren-mode 1) ;; <= is that what you want?
15:12	technomancy	(no idea why that's not enabled by default...)
15:13	Pupeno	technomancy: I have that enabled as well, let me find what I mean.
15:13	duck1123	I wonder if it would be worth it to replace dashes with spaces when doing pattern matching
15:13	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
15:13	clojurebot	I know 29 things
15:13	technomancy	Pupeno: oh, like it highlights the whole form when you have the point on the paren or something?
15:14	Pupeno	technomancy: it highlights the whole form when you are in the form, and the sorounding forms with other colors, very handy. lisppaste does that.
15:14	technomancy	Pupeno: paredit is supposed to provide a number of handy paren-matching features, but I haven't used it myself.
15:14	technomancy	oooh... yeah, the stuff that lisppaste does is awesome. never seen that in Emacs, but I'm sure it's possible
15:14	flonk	im trying to use miglayout from contrib
15:14	flonk	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.miginfocom.swing.MigLayout (miglayout.clj:0)
15:15	mehrheit	Pupeno: show-paren-mode has whole form highlighting as a custom option
15:15	Lau_of_DK	flonk: (import '(net.miginfocom.swing MigLayout))
15:15	mehrheit	Pupeno: ant there's hl-paren which colors parenthesis based on their depth relative to point
15:16	Pupeno	mehrheit: interesting.
15:17	Lau_of_DK	flonk: retraction. Thats how you import when using the miglayout-swing.jar, Ive never used the one in contrib, its probably (use clojure.contrib.sql)
15:20	Pupeno	mehrheit: can't find the options, I suppose they can only be set with elisp?
15:22	mehrheit	Pupeno: M-x customize-variable show-paren-style
15:27	flonk	(ns clojure.contrib.miglayout.test
15:27	flonk	(:import (javax.swing JButton JFrame JLabel JList JPanel
15:27	flonk	JScrollPane JTabbedPane JTextField JSeparator))
15:27	flonk	(:use clojure.contrib.miglayout))
15:28	flonk	adding (import '(net.miginfocom.swing MigLayout)) diesnt help
15:29	mehrheit	flonk: if the class is not found, it's apparently not in the classpath
15:29	flonk	well how do i add it then?
15:29	Chousuke	how do you run clojure?
15:29	flonk	i thought clojure-box automatically fixed that for me?
15:29	Chousuke	flonk: clojure-box doesn't automatically add things to your classpath
15:30	flonk	downloaded clojurebox, start it with M-x slime
15:30	mehrheit	flonk: it only adds clojure to the classpath
15:30	flonk	ok, how do i add o classpath(on windows) then?
15:30	AWizzArd	(add-classpath "/file/here.jar")
15:30	Chousuke	hm :/
15:30	flonk	C:/?
15:30	flonk	in the repl?
15:30	Chousuke	that works, but only use it from the repl
15:31	Chousuke	it's only supported as a quick hack kind of thing :P
15:32	hoeck	flonk: or M-x customize-group swank-clojure
15:32	flonk	do i only need the contrib.jar, does that collect them all?
15:32	Chousuke	no
15:32	mehrheit	clojurebox should probably have some simple configuration tool for the classpath
15:32	mehrheit	flonk: you need miglayout's jar. it's separate from clojure-contrib.
15:32	Chousuke	flonk: the miglayout thing is probably a completely separate jar that you'll need to get from somewhere.
15:32	Chousuke	probably :P
15:33	flonk	there is no miglayout.jar
15:33	flonk	just .clj-files
15:33	mehrheit	flonk: clojure.contrib.miglayout is just a clojurier binding for the java library
15:34	flonk	so i need to download the lib separately? couldnt it get shipped with clojurebox?
15:34	pwade	Chouser: Where is your reflection helper code?
15:34	mehrheit	flonk: clojurebox ships clojure, emacs and swank. miglayout is a java library
15:35	Chousuke	flonk: that'd just be an unnecessary dependency for most people.
15:35	mehrheit	s/swank/slime
15:35	Chousuke	http://www.migcalendar.com/miglayout/versions/3.6/
15:35	Chousuke	you probably want miglayout-3.6-swing.jar
15:37	Pupeno	Is there any shorter version to (not (nil? x))?
15:38	Chousuke	x
15:38	Chousuke	:)
15:40	Chousuke	(nil? foo) is generally nonidiomatic. you can usually just use "foo" or (not foo)
15:40	Chouser	pwade: you mean 'show' for at the REPL?
15:40	Chouser	Pupeno: or (seq x) is x is a container
15:41	mehrheit	Chousuke: unless you want to test only for nil and not for false
15:41	Chousuke	you really need nil? only if you need to make a distinction between false and nil I guess.
15:41	pwade	Chouser: yes
15:42	mehrheit	hivemind
15:45	cooldude127	for clojure-contrib, what's the most up-to-date repository?
15:50	hoeck	cooldude127: the one from sourceforge
15:50	cooldude127	ok
15:58	Chouser	pwade: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/96ed91f823305f02
15:59	Chouser	clojurebot: show is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/96ed91f823305f02
15:59	clojurebot	Roger.
16:03	flonk	http://www.migcalendar.com/miglayout/versions/3.6/
16:03	flonk	which of those do i need?
16:04	flonk	oh you said already
16:07	pwade	Chouser: thank you
16:08	flonk	java.net.MalformedURLException: unknown protocol: c (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:08	flonk	when
16:08	flonk	user> (add-classpath "C:/Program Files/Clojure Box/libjars/miglayout-3.6-swing.jar")
16:09	mehrheit	flonk: add-classpath expects an URL; prepend the string with file://
16:10	flonk	can you show exactly how?
16:10	flonk	user> (add-classpath "://C:/Program Files/Clojure Box/libjars/miglayout-3.6-swing.jar") doesnt work
16:10	mehrheit	(add-classpath "file://C:/Program Files/Clojure
16:10	mehrheit	Box/libjars/miglayout-3.6-swing.jar")
16:14	flonk	hmm import works now thanks
16:14	flonk	still program crashes, oh well first prison breka then back to coding
16:21	flonk	ok the import retusn nil, but so does it if i mess up the path
16:21	flonk	couldnt that be changed, silent errors is the worst thing i know
16:33	Lau_of_DK	flonk: I dont get silent errors when I import something thats not there
16:36	hiredman	flonk: what is the exact import form you are using?
16:37	hiredman	there are import forms that, infact, do nothing, so no errors are ever thrown
16:37	hiredman	hiredman.clojurebot=> (import '(does.not.exist))
16:37	hiredman	nil
16:38	hiredman	you need to import specific names from the class
16:39	hiredman	hiredman.clojurebot=> (import '(does.not.exist something))
16:39	hiredman	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: does.not.exist.something (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
16:41	shoover	mehrheit: good point about clojurebox and the classpath. I will fix it to at least pick up jars in ~/.clojure
16:51	shoover	flonk: when you're done watching tv, you might also try add-classpath with file:///c:/... note the third slash
16:56	Lau_of_DK	flonk: you still havent got miglayout working?
17:08	traskan	(add-classpath "file:///C:/Program Files/Clojure Box/libjars/miglayout-3.6-swing.jar")
17:08	traskan	same again
17:08	traskan	Lau: no it is not working
17:08	traskan	i downloaded the lib you said and placed it ^^
17:09	Lau_of_DK	And youre on windows?
17:12	traskan	yes
17:12	traskan	sometime i have to do Progra~1
17:13	traskan	but it doenst seem to work either
17:13	hiredman	traskan: how do you know the add-classpath is not working?
17:13	hoeck	traskan: on my win2k machine add-classpath works with "file:/c:/program ..." (don't know why)
17:13	Lau_of_DK	Ok, traskan, just as an experiment, can you open a cmd, and move to the directory wherein you have miglayout-swing.jar ?
17:13	Lau_of_DK	(ex. "cd c:\test"
17:14	traskan	i am there
17:14	Lau_of_DK	Can you copy clojure.jar to the same dir ?
17:16	traskan	done
17:16	Lau_of_DK	then try "java -cp . clojure.lang.Repl"
17:17	Lau_of_DK	If that gives you a repl, try "(import '(net.miginfocom.swing Miglayout))" which should return nil
17:17	traskan	exception in thread main
17:17	Lau_of_DK	Which one?
17:17	traskan	java -cp . clojure.lang.Repl
17:17	Lau_of_DK	Which exception?
17:18	traskan	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/Repl
17:18	traskan	Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.Repl
17:18	Lau_of_DK	oh thats right, Windows has got a different syntax for cp
17:19	Lau_of_DK	Maybe "java -cp "." clojure.lang.Repl" ?
17:19	traskan	huh?
17:19	Lau_of_DK	?
17:19	traskan	two parts?
17:19	Lau_of_DK	sorry
17:20	Lau_of_DK	'java -cp "." clojure.lang.Repl'
17:20	traskan	same
17:20	Lau_of_DK	I seem to remember that Windows wants quote, so that it doesnt mess up the command line
17:20	Lau_of_DK	oh
17:20	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: he needs to name the jar in the cp
17:20	hiredman	just having a . does not work
17:20	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: on windows?
17:20	hiredman	every where
17:20	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: It works fine on Linux
17:20	traskan	i must have in .emacs in my "real" emacs, wait
17:21	Lau_of_DK	traskan: We can solve this in a way that takes a little longer, but will give you the best result. Browse to www.ubuntu.org and follow the installation guide, report here when ready for step #2
17:21	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: It may apear to work that way on linux, but I really doubt it does
17:21	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: it does
17:21	traskan	Lau: ok done
17:21	hiredman	Lau_of_DK: I doubt it
17:21	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: dont doubt, it works
17:21	hiredman	traskan: how do you know the add-classpath is not working?
17:22	traskan	i have ubuntu installed
17:22	traskan	hiredman: i dont but the program doesnt start
17:22	hiredman	traskan: which program?
17:22	traskan	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.miginfocom.swing.MigLayout (miglayout.clj:0)
17:22	traskan	[Thrown class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException]
17:22	traskan	contrib miglayout test.clj
17:22	Lau_of_DK	traskan: in ubuntu 'java -cp /path/to/clojure.jar:/path/to/miglayout-swing.jar clojure.lang.Repl
17:22	Lau_of_DK	'
17:23	Chouser	For me, on ubuntu, this works: java -cp ~/build/clojure/clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl
17:23	traskan	giot the rrepl
17:23	Chouser	This fails: java -cp ~/build/clojure/ clojure.lang.Repl
17:23	traskan	java -cp clojure.jar clojure.lang.Repl
17:23	hiredman	Chouser: word
17:25	traskan	i try to import and get classnotfoundexception there too
17:26	traskan	Lau: im not intereste din Ubuntu anyway, I run it on vmware and it is to slow
17:28	traskan	lol did i offedn anone? i didnt trahs ubuntu just saying im not gonna use it for this. probably will make a real install one day though
17:29	hiredman	traskan: good, tell him to take is ubango and shove it
17:29	traskan	youre what, a Suse guy?
17:29	hiredman	no
17:29	traskan	archlinux?
17:29	traskan	fedora?
17:29	traskan	debian?
17:30	hiredman	the idea of suggesting that you install a whole new OS as part of trouble shooting this issue is outragous
17:30	hiredman	traskan: what does it matter what my personal choice is?
17:30	traskan	yes but he as just joking i think
17:30	traskan	just asking
17:31	hiredman	FreeBSD actually
17:31	traskan	im fairly new to linux an im not blown away,
17:31	traskan	ok
17:31	traskan	it is better than windows ina lot of ways but some not
17:31	hiredman	uh, in my personal opinion, just about anything is better then windows in everyway
17:32	hiredman	but I am evangelical about it
17:32	traskan	lol, is freebsd easy to use?
17:32	hiredman	I find it easy to use
17:33	hiredman	but I have been using it for about eight years
17:33	traskan	i jsut want something easy to use that is superstable and fast and good for programming. and youtube and stuff works..
17:33	danlei	it's very well documented
17:33	traskan	ok
17:33	traskan	anyway back to clojure
17:33	traskan	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.miginfocom.swing.MigLayout (miglayout.clj:0)
17:33	traskan	[Thrown class clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException]
17:33	traskan	so i need to get Miglayout in my classpath
17:33	hiredman	so what exactly are you doing to get that error?
17:34	traskan	and i never get the friggin java classpath
17:34	traskan	uim running miglayout/test.clj in clojure-contrib
17:34	traskan	im
17:34	hiredman	how are you running it?
17:34	traskan	C-c C-l
17:34	hiredman	I see
17:34	traskan	clojure-box
17:35	mehrheit	traskan: add-classpath may not work for some java libraries
17:35	traskan	ok
17:35	hiredman	rhicky has stated that add-classpath was a mistake
17:35	hiredman	and may be removed
17:35	blackdog_	it's only for the repl
17:36	traskan	but now i have decided to put all my jars in ~pathto/clojure box/libjars/
17:36	blackdog_	he said yesterday
17:36	danlei	mehrheit: why might it not work?
17:36	traskan	how do i permanently add that to my classpath?
17:36	mehrheit	danlei: I don't know exactly; it doesn't work for Qt-Jambi, I think
17:36	hiredman	traskan: I think you have to right click on my computer
17:36	hiredman	traskan: go to the advacned tab
17:36	danlei	mehrheit: hm, good to know
17:37	hiredman	traskan: click environment variables button near the bottom
17:37	hiredman	and one of the variables is CLASSPATH
17:37	hiredman	but add the directory the jars are in to the classpath is not enough
17:37	hiredman	each jar file needs to be explicitly in the cp
17:38	traskan	ok i see
17:38	traskan	retarded but ok
17:38	hiredman	shrug
17:38	traskan	windonks + java -> uberclusterfuck
17:38	danlei	rhickey wrote 2 days ago, i think, a way to set a directory up, so that you would just have to put your jars in that directory
17:38	AWizzArd	why? :-)
17:39	hiredman	there are trade offs
17:39	hiredman	as always
17:39	hiredman	I rather like jar files myself, so tiddy
17:39	blackdog_	-Djava.ext.dirs=$LIBS
17:39	danlei	blackdog_: yes, that's what i meant
17:39	hiredman	clojurebot: jar directory is -Djava.ext.dirs=$LIBS
17:39	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:39	danlei	huh
17:40	blackdog_	onto your java command to get at all the jars in $LIBS
17:40	hiredman	good to know
17:40	danlei	der schwaetzt deutsch?
17:40	AWizzArd	danlei: yes :-)
17:40	danlei	=)
17:40	AWizzArd	but you will now wonder much more how in the world I could answer so fast
17:40	hiredman	clojurebot: der schwaetzt deutsch is <reply>#who: dah!
17:40	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
17:42	hiredman	clojurebot: der schwaetzt deutsch is <reply>#who: Jah!
17:42	clojurebot	Ok.
17:42	hiredman	cough
17:42	danlei	clojurebot: schwaetzt du deutsch is <reply>aber sicher, #who!
17:42	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:43	danlei	clojurebot: schwaetzt du deutsch?
17:43	clojurebot	aber sicher, danlei!
17:43	danlei	clojurebot: botsnack
17:43	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
17:47	traskan	still the same error after adding to classpath
17:47	hiredman	clojurebot: halting problem is <reply>not a problem, the average bid for it on getacoder is $821.00
17:47	clojurebot	c'est bon!
17:48	traskan	can i apt-get clojure-box on ubuntu?
17:48	Chouser	Isn't clojure-box only for Windows?
17:48	AWizzArd	Anyone here who has used Rife in either Java or Clojure?
17:48	hiredman	traskan: do you still have the miglayout jar and the clojure jar together in a directory somewhere?
17:49	traskan	yes
17:50	hiredman	java -cp clojure.jar;miglayout.jar clojure.lang.Repl
17:50	hiredman	miglayout.jar replaced with the name of the jar
17:50	hiredman	actually
17:51	hiredman	java -cp clojure.jar;miglayout.jar clojure.lang.Repl c:\where\ever\miglayout\test.clj
17:51	hiredman	ugh, but that will throw an exception about not finding clojure.contrib
17:53	traskan	java -cp clojure.jar;miglayout.jar clojure.lang.Repl
17:53	traskan	lol that didnt complaing
17:53	hiredman	yeah
17:53	traskan	when it should right?
17:53	hiredman	well, type in net.miginfocom.swing.MigLayout
17:53	hiredman	no quotes, no parens, see what it does
17:54	traskan	works
17:54	traskan	or returns what iw rote
17:54	hiredman	ok
17:55	hiredman	so that means that somehow miglayout.jar has just not been in your classpath this whole time
17:55	traskan	yes
17:55	traskan	but it still doesnt seem to work from clojurebox
17:55	hiredman	yeah
17:56	hiredman	what kind of settings knobs does clojurebox have?
17:57	mehrheit	traskan: C-h v swank-clojure-binary
17:57	mehrheit	what is the value of this variable?
17:58	traskan	swank-clojure-binary is a variable defined in `c:/Program Files/Clojure Box/swank-clojure/swank-clojure.el'.
17:58	traskan	Its value is nil
18:02	mehrheit	traskan: M-: (setq swank-clojure-extra-classpaths (list "C:/path/to/miglayout.jar"))
18:02	mehrheit	then you should restart slime
18:03	mehrheit	or, better, insert that form into your .emacs and restart clojurebox, but I don't know where .emacs is found on windows
18:05	traskan	i do
18:05	traskan	but i dont know where lcojurbeox is reading it from because it isnt the normal place
18:05	traskan	still the same though
18:05	traskan	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: net.miginfocom.swing.MigLayout (miglayout.clj:0)
18:06	mehrheit	traskan: did you restart slime?
18:06	traskan	no
18:06	traskan	how?
18:06	traskan	the whole clojure-box?
18:06	hiredman	heh
18:06	mehrheit	you should only the whole box in case you put the change into .emacs
18:07	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs?
18:07	clojurebot	uggada buggada
18:07	mehrheit	,sayoonara in slime-repl, M-x slime
18:07	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs is also <reply>emacs is hard, lets go shopping!
18:07	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
18:07	mehrheit	actually, maybe (add-to-list 'swank-clojure-extra-classpaths "C:/path/to/miglayout.jar") would be better, since that wouldn't remove the contribs
18:09	traskan	stillt he same
18:09	mehrheit	don't know then. try posting in the google group's clojurebox thread
18:09	mehrheit	clojurebot: group?
18:09	clojurebot	group is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/
18:20	traskan	(ns clojure.contrib.miglayout.test
18:20	traskan	(:import (javax.swing JButton JFrame JLabel JList JPanel
18:20	traskan	JScrollPane JTabbedPane JTextField JSeparator))
18:20	traskan	(:use clojure.contrib.miglayout))
18:20	traskan	when i eval that i get error too
18:20	traskan	(ns clojure.contrib.miglayout.test
18:20	traskan	(:import (javax.swing JButton JFrame JLabel JList JPanel
18:20	traskan	JScrollPane JTabbedPane JTextField JSeparator))) works though
18:20	traskan	so the problem is :use clojure.contrib.miglayout
18:21	hiredman	you may have clobbered the clojure.contrib entry in classpath
18:21	traskan	uh oh
18:22	traskan	i dont have it in my classpath red face
18:22	hiredman	(.get (System/getProperties) "java.class.path")
18:22	traskan	"c:/Program Files/Clojure Box/clojure/clojure.jar;c:/Program Files/Clojure Box/clojure-contrib/clojure-contrib.jar"
18:22	traskan	oh
18:22	hiredman	hmmmm
18:23	hiredman	still no miglayout
18:23	traskan	nope
18:23	traskan	ah
18:23	traskan	it should be there?
18:23	danlei	hm,
18:23	hiredman	from my understanding of the swank stuff mehrheit spoke of, yes
18:24	danlei	yesterday, someone mentioned, that (System/getProperty "java.class.path") doesn't get updated
18:24	traskan	but where is that
18:24	hiredman	danlei: if you use add-classpath
18:24	traskan	i didnt
18:24	danlei	hiredman: yes
18:24	hiredman	yeah
18:24	traskan	i add do CLASSPATH in windows
18:24	traskan	.;C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.6.0_07\lib\ext\QTJava.zip;C:/Program Files/Clojure Box/libjars/miglayout-3.6-swing.jar;C:/Program Files/ImageJ/ij.jar
18:24	hiredman	hmmm
18:25	hiredman	swank must be ignoreing that
18:25	traskan	hmm why si a zip int he path?
18:25	hiredman	jars are zips
18:25	traskan	ok
18:25	danlei	as far as i know (not sure), the CLASSPATH won't be used, if java is called with the -cp option
18:25	hiredman	danlei: yeah
18:25	hiredman	which swank does
18:26	hiredman	the swank in clojurebox will add all the jars in ~/.clojure to the classpath
18:26	hiredman	but where ~/.clojure is on windows is, uh, unkown to me
18:26	traskan	so i place it there?
18:26	traskan	ok
18:26	hiredman	yeah
18:26	hiredman	if you can figure out where it is
18:29	hoeck	traskan: or try M-x customize-variable swank-clojure-extra-classpaths and append the path, sth like "c:\\bla\\bar"
18:29	traskan	who created clojure-box?
18:31	traskan	i can in nornal emacs do $home to get to .emacs
18:31	traskan	isnt there a way to find out where .clojure is ?
18:31	traskan	like that?
18:31	hoeck	traskan: dot-paths are sometimes under c:\ (eg my .xemacs) and normally in the documents'n'settings\username\
18:33	hiredman	traskan: try and edit ~/foo in emacs, and see where it is
18:35	traskan	~/foo ?
18:35	hiredman	uh
18:35	traskan	how do i get that?
18:35	hiredman	I dunno emacs
18:35	hiredman	but vim :e ~/foo
18:35	hiredman	or maybe on windows :e ~\foo
18:35	traskan	well how do then get where that is
18:36	traskan	i know what u mean to do
18:36	traskan	i did now
18:36	traskan	but when i do C-c C-f again i only get ~/ as apth anyway
18:36	hiredman	well
18:36	hiredman	look around for the file :P
18:36	hiredman	Docs and settings\username
18:36	traskan	the slime-history.eld is there
18:36	hiredman	all the usual places
18:37	hiredman	look in the clojurebox dir
18:37	hiredman	c:\program files\clojurebox
18:48	traskan	is last expensive?
18:48	traskan	or O(1)?
18:49	traskan	linear time it says
18:49	traskan	for both lists and vectors?
18:51	hiredman	traskan: O(n) I believe
18:52	hiredman	O(1) is constant time
18:56	traskan	out of memory error, java heap space
18:57	traskan	summing over 10K elem list abd building a list(scanl for you who know haskell), can i do something about that?
18:57	hiredman	clojurebot: out of memory error, java heap space is <reply>hmm... sounds like your out of heap space
18:57	clojurebot	Roger.
18:57	Chousuke	traskan: building a list of what?
18:57	hiredman	traskan: my guess is you did this recursively?
18:58	traskan	loop-recur
18:58	Chousuke	can you show the code you have?
18:58	traskan	yes last is very slow
18:59	lisppaste8	trasken pasted "scanl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71049
19:04	Chousuke	hmm :/
19:05	Chousuke	I can't see anything wrong with the looping versin
19:05	Chousuke	version*
19:08	Chousuke	the default maximum heap size for java appears to be 64MB. maybe your million items just can't fit in that :/
19:09	traskan	yeah
19:09	hiredman	H4ns said something many moons ago about scanl
19:09	traskan	anyway could loop [fun f] be faster than not having the f in the loop?
19:09	traskan	i not declaring it again?
19:09	traskan	i emans till using it obv
19:09	traskan	(loop [fun f
19:09	traskan	i init
19:09	traskan	[x & xs] coll
19:09	traskan	acc []]
19:09	traskan	(loop [i init
19:09	traskan	[x & xs] coll
19:09	traskan	acc []]
19:09	traskan	seems it shouldnt matter
19:10	traskan	but the result differs slightly, maybe just coincidence
19:10	Chousuke	shouldn't matter that much.
19:10	hiredman	hmmm
19:11	hiredman	lose the loop and maybe recur to the function frame?
19:11	traskan	how?
19:11	traskan	recur scnal?
19:11	hiredman	(recur ...) can target the function body
19:12	hiredman	so you just take all the bindings in (loop [ ...] and but them in the function args list
19:12	hiredman	it can making calling the function a little messier
19:13	hiredman	I think that might not make a difference
19:13	hiredman	I am unsure
19:17	Chousuke	it shouldn't matter
19:18	traskan	uh
19:19	traskan	i did foldl(reduce) with and without loop
19:19	traskan	and no loop was twice as fast
19:19	traskan	how come?
19:19	traskan	is it the destructuring?
19:20	traskan	yeah seems like it
19:20	traskan	doing first and rest is a lot faster than [x & xs]
19:57	traskan	this feels like premature optimization but i investigaed the above and it seems by my naive profiling(just using time ) that having 2 functions(nested ones) and binding recur to the fucntion instead of loop and not using destructuring spees it up
20:01	Chousuke	hmm :/
20:02	Chousuke	I wonder why having two functions would be faster than loop
20:02	Chousuke	destructuring is understandable I guess.
20:15	rhickey	1000th member on the Google Group!
20:16	mmcgrana	nice
20:30	abrooks	rhickey: Congrats!
20:36	danlarkin	traskan: indeed, I have found destructuring to be slower than not, so for inner loops it makes sense to avoid it, but elsewhere the convenience can outweigh the (small) efficiency loss
20:37	traskan	yes that sounds reasonable, felt like i was doing pointless optimizations but you have a good point, could be used for inner loops
20:59	mattrepl	argh, having a difficult time pulling up examples of new class definition. anyone have a link handy?
21:15	mattrepl	that wasn't very clear, I was referring to the new Java class creation format that replaced the gen-class-*
22:04	Chouser	clojurebot: main?
22:04	clojurebot	728=8B5?
22:04	Chouser	clojurebot: AOT main?
22:04	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:06	Chouser	clojurebot: AOT genclass is http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665 and http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
22:06	clojurebot	Roger.
22:06	Chouser	mattrepl: ^^
22:06	mattrepl	Chouser: thank you
22:33	mmcgrana	is anyone else having problems with clojure.contrib.except/throwf on recent versions of clojure and contrib - I'm getting the dreaded "ClassCastException" error
22:34	lisppaste8	mmcgrana pasted "throwf problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71056
23:18	flonk	it really is awesome
23:18	flonk	git
23:19	flonk	why doesnt clojure siwtch to git and github entirely?
23:25	r2q2	What is a good way to learn clojure? The lectures by Hitchey?
23:26	Chouser	r2q2: yeah, that's probably the best until the book comes out
23:27	Chouser	Probably seqs and concurrency, and then read through the topic pages on the web site
23:31	pjb3	r2q2: I'd say buy the beta book now
23:31	pjb3	There's plenty of useful stuff in there, especially for getting you started
23:32	pjb3	After that, you pretty much learn by doing, looking stuff up from the docs
23:32	Chouser	clojurebot: book?
23:32	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:33	Chouser	clojurebot: book is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
23:33	clojurebot	c'est bon!
23:34	r2q2	clojurebot: yow
23:34	clojurebot	I don't understand.
23:34	r2q2	clojurebot: help
23:34	clojurebot	728=8B5?
23:34	pjb3	wtf is clojurebot?
23:34	pjb3	clojurebot: book?
23:34	clojurebot	book is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
23:34	pjb3	fancy
23:34	r2q2	I think I will buy the book after my christmas money comes in.
23:35	pjb3	There's a 25% sale on friday: http://pragprog.com/frequently-asked-questions/black-friday
23:35	pjb3	So the beta book will only cost you $15.25
23:36	pjb3	clojurebot: AOT?
23:36	clojurebot	No entiendo
23:36	pjb3	clojurebot: AOT genclass?
23:36	clojurebot	AOT genclass is http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665 and http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
23:54	notallama	clojurebot: compile?
23:54	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:54	notallama	clojurebot: AOT compilation?
23:54	clojurebot	No entiendo
23:54	notallama	clojurebot: tell me your secrets?
23:54	clojurebot	I don't understand.
23:55	notallama	curses. foiled again.
23:56	notallama	so. for (compile [lib]), what's lib? and what does compile do?
23:57	notallama	or probably a better question: how do i compile into .class files?