#clojure – 2008-11-24

2008-11-24

00:01	hiredman	a, uh, �thunk?
00:03	timothypratley	Ok I have an example of a null pointer user error:
00:03	timothypratley	(defn new-listener [port]
00:03	timothypratley	(try (java.net.ServerSocket. port)
00:03	timothypratley	(println "Listening on " port)
00:03	timothypratley	(catch Exception e
00:03	timothypratley	(println "Failed to listen on port " port ": " (.getMessage e)))))
00:03	timothypratley	(println "Server started")
00:03	timothypratley	(let [listener (new-listener 8888)]
00:04	timothypratley	(.accept listener))
00:04	timothypratley	new-listener is incorrectly defined
00:04	timothypratley	so throwing a null pointer exception is the correct action
00:04	timothypratley	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException (test.clj:0)
00:05	timothypratley	but there are no clues as to where the error occured.
01:36	timothypratley	if i had a set, and wanted to call a function on all members for side-effects... what should I use?
01:36	notallama	doseq?
01:37	albino	but I just learned about it 10 minutes ago :)
01:38	timothypratley	great! thanks
01:38	hiredman	(doc doseq)
01:38	clojurebot	Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by "for". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil.
01:40	albino	hiredman: did you write clojurebot?
01:56	hiredman	albino: yes
01:56	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you?
01:56	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
01:57	hiredman	clojurebot: where are you is <reply>#who: I am at http://gist.github.com/27733 or there abouts
01:57	clojurebot	Ok.
02:21	replaca	anyone active?
02:21	replaca	I have an 'ns' question
02:22	replaca	I don't see a good source of documentation on the ns macro
02:22	timothypratley	I'm here, but unlikely to be able to help :)
02:22	timothypratley	you can but ask...
02:23	replaca	but in the api doc, they say to prefer ":as" with ns to using refer to make aliases
02:23	replaca	but I don't see the syntax for add anywhere
02:24	replaca	*add -> :as
02:24	replaca	I would guess that it fits into (ns (:use ...)) somehow
02:24	replaca	ideas? pointers?
02:25	replaca	timothypratley: are you a noob too?
02:25	timothypratley	(doc require)
02:25	clojurebot	Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents define a library of
02:25	timothypratley	Recognized options: :as :as takes a symbol as its argument and makes that symbol an alias to the lib's namespace in the current namespace.
02:26	timothypratley	I think that means (require something :as somethingelse)
02:26	timothypratley	yup indeed!
02:26	replaca	yeah, but I thought that require was now mostly deprecated in favor of using ns
02:26	timothypratley	what exactly are you trying to do...?
02:27	replaca	or am I misreading things?
02:27	replaca	So, I'm making a port of the CL format function
02:27	replaca	but that conflicts with clojure.core
02:27	replaca	so I call it cl-format
02:28	replaca	but I'm using test ode from the examples in CLtL and they all call it
02:28	replaca	format
02:28	replaca	so I wanted to alias it back so the tests look like the book
02:28	replaca	(and just to show that it could be done :-))
02:30	replaca	ahh, but now I see that :as aliases namespaces and not symbols
02:30	replaca	maybe I just need def...
02:31	replaca	hmmm
02:31	replaca	timothypratley: how long have you been clojuring?
02:34	timothypratley	groovey :) yes you are beyond my help sorry... you want to 'hide' the clojure core in favour of your own functions I take it
02:35	timothypratley	about a month, not very heavily and I don't know Lisp or Java that great so I'm a bit of a battler :P
02:47	replaca	yup, it turns out I was just thinking too hard
02:48	replaca	after hiding format with (:refer-clojure :exclude [format])
02:48	replaca	I was able to do (def format cl-format) and everything works
02:49	replaca	yeah, that is a little bit of a battle :-)
02:49	replaca	I'm a newbie, but I come knowing lisp, java and some haskell so
02:49	replaca	I know most of the concepts
02:53	Zephtar	Good morning
03:07	Pupeno	Hello.
06:16	yonatan	hello channel, anybody know how i can get a list of all currently defined symbols?
06:18	blackdog_	http://clj-doc.s3.amazonaws.com/tmp/doc-1116/index.html
06:18	yonatan	i mean dynamically
06:19	yonatan	at runtime, get a list of anything that's been def'ed
06:22	blackdog_	yonatan, this file is from enclojure it grabs symbols
06:23	yonatan	cool, thanks. i'll just see how i get this DCC thing to work
06:23	blackdog_	actually i;ll paste it hang on
06:24	blackdog_	http://paste.lisp.org/display/70949
06:25	yonatan	thanks, blackdog_
06:43	lau`	Hey heey :)
07:29	Pupeno-G	Hello.
08:09	gnuvince	Is there a Clojure or Java library to generate XML? Specifically, RSS.
08:11	duck1123	there are tons of java libs
08:12	gnuvince	duck1123: any one in particular? A very simple one would be ideal
08:12	duck1123	There's a really good one, I'm just trying to remember the name. one sec
08:13	rhickey	gnuvince: there is clojure.xml, which pulls xml into Clojure data structures, and has a simple emit function
08:15	gnuvince	I'll check it out.
08:18	duck1123	gnuvince: are you more interested in rss or atom
08:18	duck1123	you might want to check out Apache Abdera
08:21	gnuvince	duck1123: it's for my mini tutorial
08:21	duck1123	then Abdera is way too much for you
08:21	gnuvince	My need is so trivial that if there's no good lib, I'll just println the tags
08:21	duck1123	go with rhickey's suggestion
08:24	gnuvince	Trying to figure out clojure.xml/emit right now
08:33	duck1123	I would hate to have to program much of this clojure.xml format by hand
08:35	rhickey	gnuvince: try this:
08:35	rhickey	(require 'clojure.xml)
08:35	rhickey	(def x (clojure.xml/parse "http://arstechnica.com/journals.rssx"))
08:35	rhickey	x
08:35	rhickey	(clojure.xml/emit x)
08:36	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: wouldnt it be a good idea to include Chousers zip-filter routines in that namespace?
08:37	duck1123	Lau_of_DK: zip-filter has other uses though
08:38	Lau_of_DK	Isnt zip-filter the one where he put (xml-> x :element) and all that in ?
08:38	duck1123	actually, I think I'm thinking of something else
08:38	duck1123	have a link?
08:39	Lau_of_DK	Its in contrib
08:39	rhickey	duck1123: yes, the preferred by-hand format is [tag {:maybe attrs} maybe-child ...], but I haven't switched clojure.xml to produce it
08:39	duck1123	ok, clj-doc hasn't indexed that one yet
08:40	duck1123	rhickey: will that handle namespaced tags?
08:41	duck1123	we have to be careful not to mess up <foo:bar/>
08:42	rhickey	duck1123: there's an old conversation about ns tags, they can be supported explicitly, i.e. :foo:bar is an ok keyword - the trick is implicit namespace contexts
08:43	duck1123	I haven't gotten around to doing any of the xml stuff with my project yet
08:44	duck1123	which is surpising considering the previous incarnation was written in xquery
08:50	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: wouldnt it be a good idea to include Chousers zip-filter
08:50	Lau_of_DK	routines in that namespace? (Im thinking of xml-> and all that)
08:51	rhickey	Lau_of_DK: please don't ask the same question twice, if I'm not answering it's because I'm trying to work here
08:52	Lau_of_DK	rhickey: Please accept my appologies. I thought that it was probably easy to miss messages in the middle of a discussion. Wont happen again.
09:19	abrooks	Lau_of_DK: The Google Group is a good way to ask a more persistent question. It's less ephemeral, is more obvious when a question hasn't been directly addressed (because of threading) and has a larger audience. I know I personally have a gravity to IRC since it's much more interactive so I have to remind my self to consider what things should be sent to IRC and what should be sent to the group.
09:21	Lau_of_DK	abrooks: Very good point indeed. I've been too lazy with the group
10:19	wlr	mattrepl: i notice you've retracted clj-cont. are you willing to say why?
10:21	mattrepl	because it was awful. I'm also not convinced that conversion to CPS is the way to go. it may be better to build support for higher-level constructs using built-in features (e.g., coroutines via agents)
10:24	mattrepl	wlr: you're welcome to have the source, although it was my first Clojure project and it was a port of CL code. starting fresh and using idiomatic Clojure is the way to go.
10:30	wlr	mattrepl: thx. i made a local clone early on but it's still sitting unused. i agree about using idiomatic clojure. i was curious to see if you would gradually transform the original into idiomatic clojure.
10:33	mattrepl	wlr: that was the plan, but no longer need continuations. it'd be a fun project though, it's one of those things that's easy to hand wave but anyone who hasn't done it before (like myself) will end up learning something
10:39	wlr	mattrepl: well, i have a pie-in-the-sky hope of trying to do lispy version of Constraint-Based Local Search (van Hentenryck and Michel). They use and swear by continuations for their purposes.
10:58	blackdog_	danlarkin, with your json lib, is it possible to add new methods to decode objects like Timestamps from a db?
10:59	blackdog_	i don;t think it is right now as you arn't using multimethods
10:59	danlarkin	blackdog_: I've given thought to that but I couldn't figure out a good way to add in a good way, but I'd like for it to be possible
11:00	blackdog_	ok, i guess the encode-helper is a good candidate for a multimethod ?
11:00	blackdog_	then one could plug in new helpers as required
11:00	danlarkin	well there's two issues with that
11:00	blackdog_	that's my understnading
11:00	blackdog_	ok
11:01	danlarkin	one is that in my testing I found multimethods to be slightly slower than the cond, which would be OK if it indeed provided extra flexibility,
11:01	danlarkin	but I'm thinking that the :else could just call a multimethod that dispatches on type?
11:02	blackdog_	not sure, sounds reasonable
11:02	blackdog_	not a biggie right now just thought i'd mention it
11:02	danlarkin	that's the other problem... the multimethod dispatch function has to be defined by me
11:03	danlarkin	that is, the library, not the user of the library
11:03	blackdog_	i look at it very much like the print-method i guess, which is on type too
11:04	blackdog_	actually i'd like to vote for the json encoder/decoder in core
11:05	danlarkin	yeah maybe dispatching on type isn't horrible
11:05	blackdog_	i think it's a good hook for a lot of peeps
11:07	danlarkin	I think rich aims for clojure to have a small core
11:07	blackdog_	well true, but there is a vote right now as to what may be good to be included in core
11:08	Chousuke	I think a json encoder would be just fine in contrib
11:08	Chousuke	contrib is kind of semi-official anyway.
11:08	rhickey	blackdog_: I think at some point Clojure will ship with contrib, so libs like that will be included in the download and jar
11:09	blackdog_	ah cool, that my other thought
11:09	blackdog_	batteries included - good plan
11:11	Chousuke	and I don't know how your json encoder/decoder works, but couldn't you take a dispatch function as a parameter when you create the decoder/encoder object?
11:12	Chousuke	maybe that's too flexible :/
11:13	Chousuke	or rather, instead of a dispatch function you could just take a multimethod parameter :/
11:15	danlarkin	I think I might like just dispatching on type better
11:16	danlarkin	I wanted custom dispatch for a while but after thinking about it for a while and trying a whole bunch of options I think it's too complicated and unnecessary
11:24	flonk	(take 100 (repeatedly (rand))), shouldnt that work?
11:24	abrooks	flonk: (take 100 (repeatedly rand))
11:25	danlarkin	blackdog_: are you using a Java decoding right now, or don't you have a need for decoding?
11:26	abrooks	flonk: Repetedly takes an IFn (a function). By wrapping "rand" in ()s you've invoked it and now have a Double. Does that make sense?
11:27	flonk	(Integer. 5.5)
11:27	flonk	shoulnt that worj?
11:28	flonk	abrooks: yes
11:29	flonk	i want to round down anyway, so not Math/round
11:29	hiredman	flonk: (int 5.5)
11:29	abrooks	flonk: No. Integer doesn't have a constructor that takes a Double. It takes an int or a string. You want (int 5.5)
11:29	abrooks	flonk: See http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html
11:30	flonk	is there some automatic unittestin builtin?
11:32	abrooks	flonk: Since 5.5 is a double, you'd have to call one of its methods (if "int" wasn't available or sufficient) : (.intValue 5.5)
11:34	flonk	ok
11:35	flonk	hmm i doing a google-interview quesion/puzzle
11:35	flonk	given a funcion that returna random number between 1 and 5(int, not loat)
11:35	flonk	write a function that returns a number between 1 and 7
11:36	flonk	at least i got it is a return ing ints
11:36	flonk	first it seemed rather simple but ov it wasnt, my rand5 * 7 / 5 didnt return any 3 and 6s i think it was
11:38	flonk	and it doesnt give arnsaom distributiona t all
11:38	flonk	(0.7142857142857143 0.8333333333333334 1.0 1.25 1.6666666666666667 2.5 5.0)
11:38	flonk	anyways
11:39	flonk	any CS-students out there?
11:39	flonk	that can point a poor little HS-student on his way?
11:39	flonk	wait
11:39	flonk	it does
11:40	flonk	got something
11:50	Chouser	anybody have a more succint solution for: (filter identity (map #(when-not % %2) [nil nil 1 nil 1 nil] (iterate inc 0)))
11:55	bradbev	can an un-patched Clojure create standalone "executables" now? Ie, java mypackage.jar -> runs Clojure code. If yes, are there docs/message posts?
11:56	isido	Probably a stupid question: when I have a list and want to convert it to vector, what is the best way to do it? (into [] lst) or something else?
11:56	Chousuke	(vec lst) perhaps
11:57	isido	Chosuke, yes, that's probably better. Thanks!
12:04	flonk	wait im stuck, anyone good with random number generating?
12:05	flonk	rand5 -> (random nbr from 1 to 5)
12:05	flonk	how to write rand7?
12:05	flonk	(random nbr from 1 to 7)
12:05	flonk	given only rand5
12:05	blackdog_	(rand-int 7)
12:06	duck1123	clojurebot: executable jar?
12:06	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:07	duck1123	clojurebot: executable jar is http://etherplex.org/archives/50
12:07	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
12:10	Chousuke	that looks like outdated info
12:10	duck1123	hmm, it was just the first relevant google hit
12:12	duck1123	what about? http://rpdillon.googlepages.com/creatingexecutablejarswithclojure
12:14	Chousuke	that's the same thing isn't it.
12:14	Chousuke	it uses gen-and-save-class which is deprecated
12:14	duck1123	well I guess it is.
12:14	Chousuke	I just can't find the announcement for main methods in the group
12:18	duck1123	clojurebot: forget executable jar
12:18	clojurebot	Excuse me?
12:22	duck1123	clojurebot: clojure box?
12:22	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:22	duck1123	clojurebot: clojure box is http://clojure.bighugh.com/
12:22	clojurebot	Ok.
12:25	Chousuke	right.
12:26	Chousuke	to get a "standalone" clojure app you just need to defn a "-main" function in your namespace
12:26	albino	is clojurebox like lispbox or readylisp?
12:26	duck1123	that's the idea
12:27	Chousuke	after that just compile the namespace and you can run java -cp clojure.jar:.classes/ your.namespace
12:27	Chousuke	and the -main fn will be run
12:27	cooldude127	wooooo
12:27	Chousuke	need a recent clojure though.
12:28	Chousuke	I still couldn't find the google group message telling more about that but I figured out this much with a bit of experimentation
12:28	hiredman	I think in the example it is "defn- -main" does -main have to use defn-?
12:28	Chousuke	hiredman: no idea.
12:29	Chousuke	probably not.
12:29	Chousuke	I didn't.
12:29	Chousuke	and it worked.
12:29	hiredman	good enough for me
12:29	cooldude127	no that just affects whether other clojure code works
12:29	duck1123	clojurebot: executable jar is <reply>to get a "standalone" clojure app you just need to defn a "-main" function in your namespace. after that just compile the namespace and you can run java -cp clojure.jar:.classes/ your.namespace and the -main fn will be run
12:29	clojurebot	Ok.
12:29	hiredman	clojurebot: executable jar?
12:29	clojurebot	to get a "standalone" clojure app you just need to defn a "-main" function in your namespace. after that just compile the namespace and you can run java -cp clojure.jar:.classes/ your.namespace and the -main fn will be run
12:30	duck1123	that works
12:30	Chousuke	the -main fn will be run with (apply -main command-line-args) too
12:30	cooldude127	AWESOME
12:30	Chousuke	so if you want all command line args in a list, just (defn -main [& args])
12:31	Chousuke	whoops, that explanation is missing a slash
12:31	Chousuke	hm
12:32	Chousuke	I'll just go an write something in the wiki about this.
12:32	duck1123	that'll be easier to point to
12:32	Chousuke	Who's the person responsible for approving edits to the wiki?
12:32	duck1123	is there one?
12:33	Chousuke	apparently.
12:33	cooldude127	clojurebot: executable jar is to get a "standalone" clojure app you just need to defn a "-main" function in your namespace. after that just compile the namespace and you can run java -cp clojure.jar:.classes/ your.namespace and the -main fn will be run
12:33	clojurebot	Roger.
12:33	cooldude127	shit!
12:33	cooldude127	i meant to make the edit first
12:33	cooldude127	clojurebot: executable jar is to get a "standalone" clojure app you just need to defn a "-main" function in your namespace. after that just compile the namespace and you can run java -cp clojure.jar:./classes/ your.namespace and the -main fn will be run
12:33	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
12:34	cooldude127	clojurebot: executable jar?
12:34	clojurebot	executable jar is to get a "standalone" clojure app you just need to defn a "-main" function in your namespace. after that just compile the namespace and you can run java -cp clojure.jar:./classes/ your.namespace and the -main fn will be run
12:34	cooldude127	yay
12:34	duck1123	clojurebot: botsnack
12:34	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
12:34	Chousuke	it has 8 edits pending since saturday :/
12:34	cooldude127	botsnack? really? lol
12:36	shoover	albino: Clojure Box is inspired by the Lispbox from gigamonkeys.com. Something for new users to fire up a REPL and edit code.
12:36	cooldude127	yummy
12:36	cooldude127	is clojurebox in clojure or is it like lispbox where it packages up emacs and slime?
12:36	hiredman	(+ 1 5)
12:36	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
12:37	duck1123	cooldude127: the latter
12:37	shoover	clojurebox is emacs and slime. Didn't mean to get anyone's hopes up :)
12:37	cooldude127	i actually would rather it be emacs and slime
12:37	cooldude127	emacs is my best friend
12:38	cooldude127	so i'm pleased
12:38	duck1123	I haven't gotten a chance to try it out since I'm on a linux machine. I will probably try it when I get to school later tonight
12:39	hiredman	clojurebot: vim is <reply>watxh out, #who, or emacs will get you!
12:39	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
12:39	cooldude127	clojurebot: vim?
12:39	clojurebot	watch out, cooldude127, or emacs will get you!
12:39	cooldude127	lol
12:39	cooldude127	who the hell wrote this thing?
12:40	hiredman	clojurebot: creator?
12:40	clojurebot	hiredman: I'll tell you who my creator is if your tell me who your creator is
12:40	cooldude127	damnit
12:40	cooldude127	clojurebot: author?
12:40	clojurebot	Huh?
12:40	cooldude127	clojurebot: tell me who made you
12:40	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:41	hiredman	I do it
12:41	hiredman	er
12:41	hiredman	I did it
12:41	cooldude127	lol
12:41	cooldude127	it's hilarious
12:41	duck1123	it's too bad it doesn't have an AIML interpreter
12:42	Chousuke	the groups are really hard to search :/
12:42	Chousuke	I can't find the post that introducer the main method support.
12:43	Chousuke	documentation is something I hope will be in gear before 1.0 ;(
12:48	duck1123	Chousuke: I couldn't find it either. I searched my mail, and all I saw was the AOT thread, and the thread about using "/"
12:48	Chousuke	but I really wonder who is the "authorised user" approving changes to the book
12:49	Chousuke	I don't like how it is at the moment.
12:50	Chousuke	But the book should really be split into multiple pages
12:53	hiredman	there was a thread on the ml about wikibooks being bad
12:54	Chouser	I'm not sure the AOT -main stuff was announced on the group. It may have been just here.
12:55	Chouser	clojurebot: main?
12:55	clojurebot	Titim gan ?ir? ort.
12:55	Chouser	clojurebot: main is http://paste.lisp.org/display/7
12:55	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
12:56	Chouser	clojurebot: main is http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665 and http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
12:56	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
12:56	Chouser	main?
12:56	Chouser	clojurebot: main?
12:56	clojurebot	main is http://paste.lisp.org/display/70665 and http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-11-18.html#14:19
12:56	hiredman	ugh
12:56	Chouser	oh, that's all the AOT gen-class stuff.
12:56	hiredman	unicode mangling
12:57	Chouser	I guess 'main' is in there too.
13:13	hiredman	http://paste.lisp.org/display/7
13:14	hiredman	http://paste.lisp.org/display/7
13:15	Chousuke	-main doesn't need gen-class though.
13:26	Lau_of_DK	Good evening gentlemen
13:31	danlarkin	oh herro
13:38	technomancy	is there any function that will partition a sequence by a predicate function instead of just partitioning it into N parts?
13:41	danlarkin	technomancy: it's yours to write
13:41	Chousuke	there was something like partition-with in contrib I think
13:41	hiredman	like split-with?
13:41	Chousuke	not sure though.
13:42	hiredman	(doc split-with)
13:42	clojurebot	Returns a vector of [(take-while pred coll) (drop-while pred coll)]
13:42	danlarkin	that'd do it
13:42	technomancy	cool.
13:42	technomancy	thanks
13:44	technomancy	hiredman: looks like clojurebot would be more helpful if it showed the parameter list
13:46	hiredman	yeah
13:46	hiredman	there are formating issues
13:46	hiredman	the ircbot java library I am using eats anything with a newline
13:47	hiredman	:\
13:47	Chousuke	if there are any people interested in fixing the wikibook here, please do what you can
13:47	walters	irritatingly BufferedReader's readLine method does that
13:47	Chousuke	it's in horrible state right now.
13:48	Lau_of_DK	Can somebody please bring me up to speed, on what the low-level difference between alter and commute is? I remember Rich mentioning some performance gain by using Commute
13:48	hiredman	shit
13:48	hiredman	did not mean to do that
13:50	danlarkin	all of our ises! :'(
13:50	Chousuke	Lau_of_DK: commute seems to require that the function is commutative so it can avoid (b)locking more than alter does.
13:51	kid_meier	Lau_of_DK: If you alter a ref in transaction A, and transaction B then alters the same ref, transaction A will retry
13:51	kid_meier	If you use commute in both, the STM knows that the function being applied is commutative, and so neither transaction will retry.
13:51	Lau_of_DK	oh
13:51	kid_meier	but its up to you to ensure that your function truly is commutative :)... or deal with the consequences :P
13:52	Lau_of_DK	Ah I got it, thanks
13:52	Lau_of_DK	I simply misunderstood the word commute - I thought it meant to travel from A to B. But Google informs me that it means independant of order :)
13:53	kid_meier	haha :) ya, not sure where the "commuter" phrase comes from
13:54	Lau_of_DK	Did any of you see the post in the Google Group today regarding a chat server terminal ?
13:54	hiredman	danlarkin: most of them are saved
13:54	Lau_of_DK	The author uses this function for the listner (forever (new-client (.accept listener))) where is forever defined?
13:55	danlarkin	hiredman: phew
13:56	hiredman	hmmm
13:58	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
13:58	clojurebot	I know 0 things
13:58	kid_meier	(doc forever)
13:58	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:59	kid_meier	hiredman: Is that the exception handler?
13:59	Lau_of_DK	(doc map)
13:59	clojurebot	Returns a lazy seq consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments.
13:59	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: arg list?
13:59	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:59	Lau_of_DK	Youre excused
14:01	hiredman	fuck
14:01	hiredman	remember how I said "most of them are saved"?
14:01	hiredman	that was a lie
14:02	Chouser	heh
14:02	Lau_of_DK	hiredman: your welcome to direct your emotional outbursts to #emotionaloutburst :)
14:02	hiredman	typo in the load-dicts function
14:02	hiredman	opened a writer instead of a reader
14:02	hiredman	poof
14:02	technomancy	ouch. =\
14:03	technomancy	all that knowledge... gone forever!
14:03	danlarkin	ack
14:03	hiredman	he knew 30 things
14:03	Chouser	it's all in the irc log, in tidy "<foo> clojurebot: x is y" format
14:03	hiredman	!
14:05	Lau_of_DK	Have you guys experienced, when you do (time (map #(func) large-seq)) that the time returns after 60ms, yet the map runs for x minutes, making the result useless?
14:05	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: yes. map is lazy.
14:06	danlarkin	stick it in a dorun
14:06	hiredman	clojurebot: map is <reply>map is LAZY
14:06	clojurebot	Ok.
14:06	Lau_of_DK	Oh thats right Mr. Houser, thanks :)
14:07	technomancy	is compojure the most-used web framework for clojure, or are there other big ones?
14:08	Chouser	technomancy: there is also webjure
14:09	technomancy	they get really creative with those names, don't they. =)
14:11	hiredman	clojurebot: map?
14:11	clojurebot	map is LAZY
14:14	hiredman	how much do you know?
14:14	hiredman	uh oh
14:15	Chouser	clojurebot: how much do you know?
14:15	clojurebot	I know 19 things
14:15	hiredman	duh
14:15	Chouser	:-)
14:15	hiredman	clojurebot: hiredman is slightly retarded
14:15	clojurebot	Roger.
14:15	Chouser	clojurebot: hiredman is an evil genius.
14:15	clojurebot	Roger.
14:16	hiredman	so many features, so little time
14:20	technomancy	do you have "is also" yet?
14:20	kid_meier	clojurebot: hiredman?
14:20	clojurebot	hiredman is an evil genius.
14:20	kid_meier	neat
14:21	Lau_of_DK	clojurebot: (doseq [i (range 10)] (println i))
14:21	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:21	Lau_of_DK	:(
14:21	Chouser	(+ 1 2)
14:21	clojurebot	3
14:21	Chouser	(rem 10 3)
14:22	Lau_of_DK	thats kinda cool
14:22	Chouser	(/ 10 3)
14:22	clojurebot	10/3
14:22	Lau_of_DK	(/ 10 0)
14:22	Lau_of_DK	:D
14:22	Chouser	(int 10.5)
14:22	Lau_of_DK	Killed by DivisionByZero! Muhahaha :)
14:22	Chouser	(/ 9 8 7 6)
14:22	clojurebot	3/112
14:22	danlarkin	clojurebot: where are you?
14:22	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/27733
14:23	Lau_of_DK	Guys I wondered about that ants.clj that Rich made. It uses an 80x80 grid if I remember correctly, and about 50 agents are running simultaneously doing simple operations. And the performance seems absolutely horrible even with 2 cores fully loaded... why?
14:24	Chouser	can you defined 'horrible'?
14:24	Lau_of_DK	lagging, 20 fps, cpu drowned... its just slow
14:25	Lau_of_DK	I expected a nice smooth ant colony marching around
14:28	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: the animation is pegged at 10 fps
14:28	triddell	Lau_of_DK: does the performance have to do with the sleep time built into the program?
14:28	Chousuke	hiredman: did you make a list of functions to allow? :/
14:28	Chouser	Lau_of_DK: on my dual-core laptop, the cpu runs at about 30%
14:29	Chousuke	(defn foo [x] (+ 1 x))
14:29	Lau_of_DK	really...
14:29	Chousuke	(foo 4)
14:29	Chousuke	hm, no worky :(
14:31	triddell	Lau_of_DK: on second thought, sleep time wouldn't effect ants since you're not timing the completion of anything
14:34	Lau_of_DK	triddell: Im not quite sure of all the implications of the sleep. If only the agents dont update less than the animator, it should be the animators intervals that reflects fps
14:35	hiredman	Chousuke: just + - / *
14:49	hiredman	clojurebot: one?
14:49	clojurebot	one is B
14:49	technomancy	why are docstrings placed before the arg list instead of after?
14:49	hiredman	clojurebot: one?
14:49	clojurebot	one is A
14:50	hiredman	clojurebot: hiredman is also slightly retarded
14:50	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
14:51	hiredman	technomancy: strings are valid literals in function bodies
14:51	Chouser	technomancy: because functions can have only one docstring, but can have multiple arg lists (each with its own function body)
14:51	hiredman	(defn a [] "foo")
14:51	Chouser	oh. that too.
14:52	hiredman	is that a docstring? a return?
14:52	technomancy	Chouser: ah; I haven't seen that notation yet.
14:52	hiredman	clojurebot: do you know?
14:53	danlarkin	(+ (- (+ 1 5) 3))
14:53	danlarkin	(+ (- (+ 1 5) 3) 5)
14:53	danlarkin	clojurebot: :(
14:54	hiredman	no next expressions
14:54	Chousuke	technomancy: (defn foo "docstring" ([x] x) ([x & y] (+ x (apply foo y))))
14:54	hiredman	and, uh, I would not do anything that adds up to more than 4
14:55	Chousuke	extra paren there ;/
14:55	Chousuke	I always miscount them
14:56	technomancy	Chousuke: wouldn't have that problem if you used an Emacs-based IRC client. =)
14:56	technomancy	(that last smiley paren matched danlarkin's sad-face)
14:56	technomancy	Chousuke: thanks.
14:57	Chousuke	technomancy: yeah I tried erc once but it's no match for irssi.
14:57	technomancy	I guess if you like perl better than lisp. =)
14:57	Chousuke	nah
14:57	Chousuke	I don't write irssi scripts.
14:58	Chousuke	irssi does most things I need out of the box, and the few things it doesn't, I have already solved by downloading scripts made by others.
14:58	flonk	is unittesting builtin?
14:58	cooldude127	flonk: to clojure? no
14:59	flonk	like with python?
14:59	flonk	ok
14:59	cooldude127	i suppose you could use junit
14:59	flonk	ok
14:59	cooldude127	it wouldn't be pretty
14:59	technomancy	it's in contrib or something though, right?
14:59	cooldude127	is it?
14:59	cooldude127	i have no idea
14:59	Chousuke	there's some testing stuff in contrib, yes
14:59	hiredman	there seem to be a lot of testing frameworks popping up on the ml
14:59	Chouser	yeah, there's much testing work going on in contrib.
14:59	Chouser	test-is
14:59	cooldude127	sweet
14:59	flonk	anyway i have clojure-box installed now, its great. since it has clojure-contrib can I use databases right away or do I have to install something extra?
15:00	hiredman	some kind of rspec sort of thing
15:00	technomancy	that stuff belongs in core though; it makes me sad if people aren't encouraged to write tests by default. =\
15:00	Chousuke	flonk: well clojure-contrib has the sql library
15:00	Chousuke	flonk: you'll still need an actual database though.
15:02	Chousuke	doesn't the core include some testing support too?
15:02	cooldude127	i don't think so
15:03	hiredman	there is (test ...)
15:03	hiredman	(doc test)
15:03	clojurebot	test [v] finds fn at key :test in var metadata and calls it, presuming failure will throw exception
15:03	technomancy	there's no literal syntax for string interpolation, is there?
15:04	Chousuke	interpolation?
15:04	technomancy	for instance, ruby allows "two and two is #{2 + 2}"
15:04	Chousuke	right. well.
15:04	technomancy	just use format?
15:04	Chousuke	unless java.util.Formatter allows something like that, no.
15:05	abrooks	(str "two and two is " (+ 2 2) " don't you know...")
15:06	technomancy	abrooks: that works; thanks
15:06	Chousuke	using 'format would be more flexible though.
15:06	abrooks	technomancy: Subtitute println if you actually want to print it.
15:07	abrooks	technomancy: Oh, and remove the spaces...
15:07	abrooks	(println "two and two is" (+ 2 2) "don't you know...")
15:18	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
15:18	clojurebot	I know 19 things
15:19	cooldude127	is one of those things how much you know?
15:19	cooldude127	lol
15:21	Chouser	he actually knows lots more than that
15:21	Chouser	(doc count)
15:21	clojurebot	Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps
15:21	cooldude127	WOW
15:21	cooldude127	awesome
15:21	cooldude127	(+ 1 2)
15:21	clojurebot	3
15:22	cooldude127	oh that is too much fun
15:22	hiredman	well, yeah
15:22	kid_meier	(prn "hello, world")
15:22	kid_meier	where does out go?
15:22	cooldude127	kid_meier: apparently /dev/null
15:22	hiredman	ok, I got the "save what you know so you do not forget it" thread running
15:23	hiredman	kid_meier: only simple math
15:23	kid_meier	I suppose thats to prevent spamming?
15:23	hiredman	(+ 2 3)
15:23	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
15:23	hiredman	hmmm
15:23	cooldude127	what's suffusion of yellow mean?
15:23	hiredman	hard to say...
15:29	hiredman	(doc prn)
15:29	clojurebot	Same as pr followed by (newline). Observes flush-on-newline
15:38	AWizzArd	Which is the "best" jvm debugger, in which I can set break points and step through my Clojure code, line by line?
15:39	AWizzArd	I found JSwat so far.
15:58	Lau_of_DK	AWizzArd: JSwat seems to be it
15:58	kid_meier	AWizzArd: I have not found anything that really works properly. I have not tested JSwat but clearly I need to get on that
15:59	kid_meier	Awhile back Rich was working on generating debug info that was similar to regular .java debug info so that vanilla java debuggers can work with clojure code.
16:00	kid_meier	So... in theory other debuggers should work better than they did, but I haven't tried in awhile so I'm not sure.
16:00	Lau_of_DK	JSwat works quite OK, supports breakpoints and stepping. Can be quite helpful
16:00	Lau_of_DK	If youre into more advanced debugging, I have no clue
16:00	smee	hiredman: I'm playing with your sources of clojurebot, nice work!
16:01	hiredman	smee: thank you
16:02	smee	hiredman: did you change the pircbot implementation? I can't call .changeNick as is is declared as final and seems to be not available in the proxy?
16:02	hiredman	smee: I there maybe bugs around
16:03	hiredman	I change stuff in the repl and only change it in the code later
16:03	hiredman	(bad bad bad)
16:03	smee	:)
16:03	hiredman	I seem to recall in the file I forgot the bot object in the changeNick call
16:03	hiredman	(.changeNick bot "foo")
16:04	smee	no, no fix needed. the call doesn't seem to have any effect in my setup :(
16:04	hiredman	hrm
16:05	hiredman	are you connected to a server?
16:05	hiredman	I think changeNick only works once you have connected
16:06	smee	mmh, I'll just keep experimenting... thanks
16:12	hiredman	latest clojurebot checked into the gist
16:13	hiredman	includes changes support for stuff like
16:13	hiredman	clojurebot: one?
16:13	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:13	hiredman	clojurebot: one is A
16:13	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
16:13	hiredman	clojurebot: one is also B
16:13	clojurebot	Alles klar
16:13	hiredman	clojurebot: one?
16:13	clojurebot	one is B
16:13	hiredman	clojurebot: one?
16:13	clojurebot	one is B
16:13	hiredman	uh
16:13	hiredman	maybe I should not spam the channel with this
16:27	danlarkin	so no adding docstrings to a defmulti? :'(
16:30	Chouser	danlarkin: sure
16:31	Chouser	(defmulti #^{:doc "docs for foo"} foo class)
16:31	hiredman	hmmm
16:32	Chouser	clojurebot: defmulti doc is (defmulti #^{:doc "docs for foo"} foo class)
16:32	clojurebot	In Ordnung
16:33	danlarkin	but I can't use the pretty syntax for it
16:33	Chouser	danlarkin: indeed.
16:33	hiredman	clojurebot: defmulti doc is also ugly
16:33	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:34	danlarkin	haha
16:34	Chouser	I imagine there's a decent chance that rhickey would accept a patch that adds nice syntax for defmulti doc
16:35	tWip	what language is clojurebot speaking?
16:36	hiredman	that was German then, I think Dutch
16:37	tWip	wouldn't english be the most accepted language on this channel?
16:37	hiredman	clojurebot: English is the Official Language of the Universe
16:37	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
16:38	cooldude127	it was speaking english earlier
16:38	cooldude127	clojurebot: defmulti doc?
16:38	clojurebot	defmulti doc is ugly
16:38	cooldude127	how do i get to the next part
16:38	cooldude127	or previous
16:38	hiredman	cooldude127: it is random
16:38	cooldude127	clojurebot: defmulti doc?
16:38	clojurebot	defmulti doc is (defmulti #^{:doc "docs for foo"} foo class)
16:38	cooldude127	oh
17:00	larrytheliquid_	is there a naming convention for functions that shadow their macro counterparts?
17:01	Chouser	larrytheliquid_: I've not see one. I've used foo-fn for foo a couple times. shrug
17:02	larrytheliquid_	Chouser: thx
17:16	danlarkin	blackdog_: I committed a custom-encode multimethod
17:27	duck1123	hiredman: have you thought about giving clojurebot the "tell" functionality
17:27	duck1123	phenny, in #swig has that and it's quite useful
17:29	hiredman	yeah, I think it's not so useful
17:42	blackdog_	danlarkin, thanks i'll give it a shot
17:43	Flox	Good evening.
17:46	Flox	Does anybody have any experience with JEdit plugins/modes for Clojure yet? I have tried to keep up with the channel log for a couple of weeks now (though it's getting harder), but information on this has been scarce.
17:47	blackdog_	i have some stuff i worked on but it's in bad shape right now
17:48	blackdog_	i have syntax hilighting repl that's throwing exceptions and a ripped of namespace tree from enclojure
17:48	blackdog_	if you want to work on it, i'll give you a copy :)
17:48	blackdog_	i started using emacs
17:49	Flox	Yes, I have seen your announcements on the channel and on the group - and have just seen that there are some others mentioned (since Nov 5).
17:49	blackdog_	if you're interested to make it better, i'll send you what i have
17:50	blackdog_	actually I'll upload what I have right now to google groups
17:50	blackdog_	i've been meaning to
17:51	Flox	Thanks! That's what I just wanted to ask for...
17:51	hiredman	clojurebot: vim?
17:51	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:51	hiredman	touche
17:52	Hun	emacs already features that (besides being small)
17:52	Hun	and... why do you need highlighting for a lisp?
17:52	Chouser	blackdog_: that's written in Java, riht?
17:52	blackdog_	jedit yes
17:52	Flox	I'd really like to go for a pure Java solution.
17:52	blackdog_	it's very good actually
17:53	blackdog_	generally
17:53	blackdog_	i did quite a lot on it, i just can't countenance 60mb for an editor image
17:55	blackdog_	but the good thing it's a heck of a lot simpler than netbeans
17:56	Flox	I tried chimp/gorilla (since I am more of a vim guy), but the combination is not light weight enough for me - you cannot just put it into a single directory - or even a jar file and be happy...
17:58	blackdog_	clj-edit.tar.gz is uploaded,
17:58	hiredman	clojurebot: anonymous functions is <reply>anonymous functions are functions with no names
17:58	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:58	Flox	:-)
18:00	Hun	i always found it weird to think this way... i mean, named functions are more special cases of anonymous functions than the other way round
18:01	hiredman	Yes
18:01	cooldude127	mhm
18:01	cooldude127	we're too keen on naming everything
18:01	Hun	but the notion of functions as named thingies seems so inbound that one can only talk in this backwards way to explain it
18:02	hiredman	this haskell guy on the ml, asks if clojure can do anonymous functions, then in his haskell example proceeds to name the function
18:02	cooldude127	hiredman: link?
18:02	hiredman	clojurebot: group?
18:02	clojurebot	Huh?
18:02	hiredman	damn it
18:02	hiredman	didn't I fix you?
18:02	cooldude127	lol
18:03	cooldude127	is clojurebot written in clojure?
18:03	hiredman	yes
18:03	technomancy	cooldude127: of course!
18:03	cooldude127	yay
18:03	hiredman	clojurebot: how much do you know?
18:03	clojurebot	I know 24 things
18:03	technomancy	hiredman: why are you always using the <reply> syntax when teaching clojurebot?
18:03	hiredman	clojurebot: group is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/
18:03	clojurebot	Roger.
18:04	hiredman	technomancy: <reply> means leave out the is
18:04	hiredman	clojurebot: group?
18:04	clojurebot	group is http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/
18:04	technomancy	hiredman: right, but you did stuff like map is <reply>map is LAZY.
18:04	hiredman	and #who gets replaced with the nick of whoever is speaking to the bot
18:04	hiredman	uh
18:04	hiredman	my mistake?
18:05	hiredman	shrug
18:05	technomancy	oh, right; heh.
18:05	hiredman	cooldude127: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/3ccb40bcb1a0f797
18:05	cooldude127	hiredman: yeah i found it
18:05	cooldude127	i'm gonna reply
18:08	Chousuke	oh meh, you beat me to it. :p
18:09	technomancy	I can't be the only one having trouble keeping Chousuke and Chouser apart, can I?
18:09	Chousuke	no.
18:09	danlarkin	nope
18:10	technomancy	I guess I can't complain since I hang out in a channel with a guy called technoweenie... I know how it is. Tab completion causes mistakes...
18:10	Chousuke	well
18:10	hiredman	irssi has given both of them the same color nicks
18:10	hiredman	not helping
18:11	Chousuke	at least we're not as bad as drewc and drewr-`
18:11	technomancy	that's pretty bad
18:11	technomancy	hiredman: see, if you were using Emacs, you could rewrite the nick coloring function in Lisp to pick very distinct colors for similar-looking nicks. =)
18:11	Chousuka	better?
18:12	cooldude127	wow that haskell dude got a barrage of the same damn posts
18:12	Chousuke	no :(
18:12	Chousuke	heh
18:12	drewc	:)
18:13	hiredman	technomancy: well, the nickcolor thing is a script add on for irssi, so I could rewrite it
18:13	hiredman	but it is in perl, so, uh, no?
18:13	technomancy	hiredman: exactly. =)
18:13	larrytheliquid_	is there a way to get the "name" of a struct map instance?
18:13	hiredman	cause elisp is so much better then perl
18:13	technomancy	though maybe once you get used to Clojure, writing elisp is just as bad
18:13	technomancy	doh
18:14	Chouser	larrytheliquid_: no
18:14	hiredman	larrytheliquid_: sounds like you want a type, and all structmaps are of the structmap type, so you are going to need to use type tags
18:14	Chouser	larrytheliquid_: that's sort of an 'implementation detail'
18:15	Chouser	well, either a type tag (which usually implies meta-data) or just another key in your structmap, :type
18:19	hiredman	lisppaste8: url
18:19	lisppaste8	To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/clojure and enter your paste.
18:19	hiredman	(((partial comp (partial + 1)) (partial + 2) (partial + 3))) <- my poor head
18:22	Chousuke	heh
18:23	Chousuke	does that return 6?
18:23	hiredman	yes
18:23	Chousuke	pretty evil though.
18:23	hiredman	I think some was asking about accumulators last night
18:24	cooldude127	that's just brutal
18:24	hiredman	clojurebot: accumulator is (((partial comp (partial + 1)) (partial + 2) (partial + 3)))
18:24	clojurebot	Ok.
18:24	hiredman	well you just wrap it in a macro or something
18:24	hiredman	but yeah
18:24	hiredman	ouch
18:28	hiredman	clojurebot: accumulator is (((partial (partial comp (partial + 1)) (partial + 2)) (partial + 3))
18:28	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
18:28	hiredman	yeah I do
18:58	technomancy	I'm reading a tutorial that says there's no function in clojure to download the contents of a URL and return a string. is this still true?
18:59	AWizzArd	technomancy: yes, because that is not needed, as this functionality is already available in the jvm
19:00	whotheheckami_	AWizzArd: and that method call would be...?
19:00	AWizzArd	xlightweb.sourceforge.net
19:01	technomancy	AWizzArd: he builds such a function in the tutorial by calling Java code, it just seems like an obvious candidate for inclusion in clojure
19:02	technomancy	and using a third-party library for something as simple as this is a bit silly
19:06	AWizzArd	technomancy: what is also missing is a counter part for slurp, which reads the contents of a file.
19:07	AWizzArd	at least I am not aware of such a function
19:08	Chousuke	spit exists in contrib
19:08	AWizzArd	I see
19:09	Chousuke	also, contrib has duck-streams which can be used to download URLs
19:09	Chousuke	as far as I know, anyway
19:27	technomancy	cool, thanks
19:30	technomancy	so contrib is kind of a "proving ground" for libraries that may or may not be needed in core?
19:38	mtrimpe	Does anyone here have experience with using Clojure for (purely) functional reactive programming where you basically keep a record of all the events coming in and build the UI etc. up from there so that you can replay your interaction with the system?
19:38	Chousuke	technomancy: not quite.
19:40	Chousuke	technomancy: some things from contrib can be included in core, but it also has libraries that will never be in core.
19:42	Chousuke	that doesn't mean those libraries are bad or anything though. They're just not "essential"
19:42	technomancy	I see.
19:42	technomancy	does everything in core get loaded every time clojure is invoked?
19:43	Chousuke	no. core actually has several namespaces.
19:43	Chousuke	one of them is clojure.core :P
19:44	Chousuke	(only that is loaded by default)
19:45	powr-toc	more of a java question this, but presumably proxies are slower than java objects with real native classes/
19:46	powr-toc	?
19:46	Chousuke	hmmh
19:46	Chousuke	proxies are real native classes. :p
19:46	powr-toc	well the proxy is... but... you know what I mean :-)
19:47	Chousuke	well, there's just a tiny bit of indirection. all the proxy does is forward the invocation to the appropriate clojure fn :)
19:48	Chousuke	that's my understanding anyway..
19:49	rhickey	Chousuke: yes, there is an indirection. In return you get the ability to fix/modify methods of running objects
19:50	Chousuke	I wonder if the JVM can optimise the indirection away if there are lots of calls to the proxy :/
19:51	Chousuke	I don't know what kind of tricks Hotspot is capable of, exactly. Only that it's got lots of them :)
19:52	technomancy	that 20GB/s story from the JVM summit was pretty amazing
19:56	powr-toc	technomancy: which story's that?
19:57	technomancy	powr-toc: from the "clojure for lisp programmers" video
19:57	technomancy	rich talks about meeting a guy who has a 600-core machine optimized for the JVM
19:58	technomancy	he started running a sloppy-ish clojure program on it; it generated 20GB of garbage a second, and the GC only took up 7% of the total CPU
19:58	technomancy	I think that was the point at which I decided to stop worrying about the JVM. =)
19:59	blackdog_	if you have a look at the slides off this page has more info http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2008/09/jvm-language-su.html
19:59	powr-toc	technomancy: damn... that's amazing!!!! I always knew the JVM was an awesome piece of kit, but that's incredible...
20:00	powr-toc	not sure what's better... the JVM or that 600-core machine... seriously, what was that?!
20:00	technomancy	he didn't say much about the box
20:01	blackdog_	check out that link to azul systems
20:05	powr-toc	Looks pretty sweet... does it run on Sun's VM or a custom one?
20:05	powr-toc	ok, it's the AVM... I wonder how bespoke that is...
23:25	falconair	hi folks, i'm the one spamming the group with jms/reactive/cells related posts
23:25	falconair	just thought i'd introduce my self
23:26	cooldude127	sup falconair
23:26	cooldude127	i don't know shit about that stuff but hi :)
23:26	falconair	it cool stuff dude
23:27	cooldude127	enlighten me
23:27	cooldude127	(side note) i'm getting too dependent on tab completion. i just tried to tab complete the word enlighten. how the hell will erc know what i'm trying to say?
23:28	hiredman	you can get dictionary tab completion stuff for irssi
23:28	cooldude127	lol i could probably get it here too
23:29	cooldude127	i just haven't figured out how yet
23:29	falconair	well...perhaps the simplest (but not exact) way is to think in terms of a spreadsheet (Excel)...cell A has 1, cell B has 2 and cell C has an expression (+ A B) ... C will have the sum of A and B ... if A or B changes, C will get updated
23:29	cooldude127	falconair: that actually is pretty cool
23:29	cooldude127	you have proven yourself to not be a liar
23:29	cooldude127	:)
23:29	notallama	i find myself mashing tab on msn/aim. maybe i'll have to look into actually making it do something.
23:31	notallama	having tab cycle through possible completions without moving the cursor is what would be good, i think.
23:31	cooldude127	yeah
23:32	falconair	say I have a clojure expression in a string like "(+ 1 2)" ... how do I evaluate this expression? Using the "read" function? Another way to ask is the simplest way to build my own REPL?
23:33	cooldude127	falconair: eval is what evaluates expressions i think
23:33	Chouser	falconair: load-string
23:33	Chouser	(doc load-string)
23:33	clojurebot	Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the string; arglists ([s])
23:33	cooldude127	(doc eval)
23:33	clojurebot	Evaluates the form data structure (not text!) and returns the result.; arglists ([form])
23:33	falconair	yup, works!
23:34	cooldude127	repl basically equates to (print (eval (read "(+ 1 2)")))
23:34	cooldude127	but ya know with prompts and stuff
23:34	falconair	cooldude127, so how does that differ from load-string? is load-string the primitive or eval?
23:34	cooldude127	eval is the primitive
23:35	hiredman	(doc load-string)
23:35	clojurebot	Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the string; arglists ([s])
23:35	hiredman	huh
23:35	cooldude127	with one s-expr they seem to be the same
23:35	Chouser	load-string calls read and eval for you, among other things.
23:35	cooldude127	oh
23:35	cooldude127	yeah
23:35	falconair	so read returns a datastructure (not text right?) and eval evaluates that data structure?
23:35	cooldude127	(load-string "(+ 1 2)") roughly equals (eval '(+ 1 2))
23:36	cooldude127	aka (eval (read "(+ 1 2)"))
23:37	Chouser	falconair: yes
23:38	cooldude127	that is exactly how it goes
23:38	falconair	ok, so does it make sense to wire up a JTable where each cell has a clojure expression...blah blah blah...turn it into a spreadsheet?
23:39	falconair	(i'll fill in the blah if required)
23:39	hiredman	huh
23:39	cooldude127	falconair: that could probably work
23:39	cooldude127	basically a spreadsheet where clojure is the language for formulas?
23:40	falconair	exactly...but better than normal spreadsheets...because you can define your own functions, work on more complex data structures...and not be bound by the grid
23:40	hiredman	uh
23:40	cooldude127	i think that's pretty cool actually
23:40	falconair	hiredman: don't like the idea?
23:41	hiredman	I don't know that anyone would use it
23:41	hiredman	spreadsheet junkies have a lot invested in excel and excel style formulas, vba, etc
23:41	hiredman	and programers can just use clojure
23:42	cooldude127	hiredman has a point
23:43	hiredman	wait
23:43	hiredman	vba sucks
23:43	hiredman	do it!
23:43	cooldude127	lol yes VBA does suck
23:43	falconair	ok, here is my spreadsheet defence :) : the 'spreadsheet' programming model has some extremely interesting things to offer even elitest of language designers--if the goal of a good programming language is productivity:
23:43	cooldude127	athough I started programming in VBA
23:44	cooldude127	falconair: i think it's cool
23:44	falconair	I'm going to present my excel point of view any way...since clojure has greatest potential in this area:
23:44	hiredman	clojurebot: emacs is <reply> uggada buggada
23:44	clojurebot	In Ordnung
23:46	falconair	enthusiasts of REPL based languages sing the virtues of exploratory programming...the ability to test small snippets of programs as the programs grows is one of the only ways to stay sane...spreadsheets take that to the next level by allowing
23:46	falconair	programmers to edit their code AS it is running!
23:47	falconair	Unlike most languages or programming environments, spreadsheets are not just programs, but also user interfaces
23:47	hiredman	urm
23:47	falconair	uh...I had more than two points but I'm forgetting them now
23:47	notallama	you can't define a function in a spreadsheet?
23:47	falconair	by the way, for me, spreadsheets don't mean VBA, I mean purely cell based programming
23:48	falconair	now, the bad parts are that you can't define a function in a spreadsheet :)
23:48	falconair	also that there is one giant grid (or several giant grids)
23:48	falconair	with something like clojure...function definition is not a problem (obviously)...
23:49	notallama	i figured you would be able to. (although that function would be named by its coordinates) i have not used a preadsheet, though.
23:49	falconair	instead of a giant grid, we can provide a bunch of floating text fields (or whatever layout works better)
23:50	falconair	Apple's new spread sheet has a concept of 'painting a grid' on the screen...having a bunch of them float next to each other...as opposed to a giant grid
23:51	falconair	that's my defense of spreadsheets and (partial) motivation behind why clojure is more interesting in this respect that almost any other language (with the exception of small talk languages)
23:51	falconair	meant to put a :), to clarify that I am not insane
23:52	notallama	i played a game. mindrover. it let you program robots by dragging wires between different components/functions. same idea? (you're directing the function's i/o basically?)
23:52	falconair	well, connecting comonents by wires doesn't seem to scale very much...a few connections and you find yourself in a huge mess
23:54	falconair	i think such programming is most relevant when programmers have to deal with streaming data...i personally deal with stock prices...this would be incredibly useful
23:54	hiredman	hah
23:54	hiredman	you are talking about yahoo pipes for clojure
23:55	falconair	pipes still go back to "boxes and arrows" style of programming that notallama mentioned...but they are very similar...
23:56	falconair	I think the only difference is that expressions should be definable syntactically rather than just through click and drag
23:57	hiredman	(doc ->)
23:57	clojurebot	Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc.; arglists ([x form] [x form & more])