#clojure – 2016-12-08

2016-12-08

09:04	chouser	Hello, friends.
09:05	hyPiRion	hi there
09:09	Rovanion	About the named keys/associative arguments discussion yesterday: Ended up converting my named args to an options map being passed in to the function which I then destructured in the declaration of the function. Became much easier to proxy functions after that so thank you all!
09:10	Rovanion	So for todays question: Is there a function like map but which maps f to on all the leaves of a nested map?
09:11	Rovanion	So that (leafmap inc {:a 5 :b {:c 3}} would return {:a 6 :b {:c 4}}.
09:13	Rovanion	What I want to do is to truncate all numbers in: http://paste.debian.net/901209/ so that they're just integers.
09:13	ridcully_	postwalk?
09:14	ridcully_	,(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (number? %) (inc %) %) {:a 5 :b {:c 3}})
09:14	clojurebot	{:a 6, :b {:c 4}}
09:15	chouser	ridcully_: That's exactly what's in my repl. I mean _exactly_.
09:15	Rovanion	Hahaha you're all adorable!
09:15	ridcully_	chouser: it was in my repl too. magic ;)
09:16	chouser	Hm, I mean -- I wrote the same thing at the same time.
09:16	chouser	But maybe you understood that already, hence the ";)"
09:16	ridcully_	yeah. i meant, that it wrote it out in my repl first (too) and not just here
09:17	ridcully_	s/it/i/
09:17	chouser	ah, yes, of course.
09:17	chouser	The thing before it in my repl is the docs for postwalk :-)
09:17	Rovanion	So if % is a number return %+1, else return %. Cool!
09:18	chouser	Rovanion: Note that operates on keys as well as values.
09:18	chouser	...and will descend into vectors, as well, etc.
09:18	Rovanion	Hence the need to check if the arg is a number.
09:18	ridcully_	was using that way to often recently - so i had it memorized
09:20	chouser	,(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (number? %) (inc %) %) {[1 1] :a, :b {1 1, 2 [2 2]}})
09:20	clojurebot	{[2 2] :a, :b {2 2, 3 [3 3]}}
09:21	chouser	Thus even with the 'number?' check, it may do more than you want in some cases. Depends on what you want of course.
09:21	Rovanion	Yeah, will screw up any map with numbers for keys.
09:21	Rovanion	Unless that's what you want.
09:24	chouser	,((fn inc-leaf [m] (if (map? m) (zipmap (keys m) (map inc-leaf (vals m))) (inc m))) {:a 5 :b {2 3}})
09:25	clojurebot	{:a 6, :b {2 4}}
10:50	neoncont_	Trying to find a recipe to attach a watch to a js variable, is there a way?
10:51	dysfun	MutationObserver ?
10:52	dysfun	oh no, that only does DOM
10:53	neoncont_	d'oh
10:53	neoncont_	I suppose I could attach it, but I was hoping I could bind to localstorage
10:55	dysfun	it does awful things with state
11:26	dysfun	hello
11:26	dysfun	are you stealth osfameron?
11:27	osfabibisi	I'm work osfameron, yeah
11:27	dysfun	welcome to our beautiful channel
11:28	osfabibisi	I love what you've done with the place ;-)
11:29	dysfun	so you're having a good look at clojure now?
11:30	osfabibisi	we're deploying a sample microservice with it, to see if we want to use it as a team
11:30	osfabibisi	instead of our current Python stuff
11:30	dysfun	ah
11:30	osfabibisi	the other serious alternative would be Scala, which $boss hates ;-)
11:30	dysfun	must say, i'm quite fond of clojure
11:31	osfabibisi	I'm quite enjoying so far, I have to say
11:31	dysfun	i'm not at all fond of scala though, despite liking haskell
11:31	osfabibisi	scala looks like "a better Java"
11:31	dysfun	pretty much
11:31	osfabibisi	(ah yes, the other serious option is Java itself, which I'm not very keen on)
11:31	dysfun	if you want to use java, clojure is the best language to do it from
11:32	dysfun	but while you're here, we have a bunch of nice libraries too
11:33	dysfun	and if you're using postgres, we have some very nice things
11:33	osfabibisi	nope, no postgres
11:34	dysfun	pity, i work on several postgres projects
11:34	osfabibisi	HTTP calls, Kafka, Consul
11:34	osfabibisi	(and MarkLogic as DB, but we interact with that via http)
11:34	dysfun	if you want a high performing http client, i recommend aleph (has a pool)
11:35	osfabibisi	ah, we just went for the popular one, clj-http or some such
11:35	dysfun	yeah, clj-http is slightly more featureful at the minute
11:36	dysfun	the main blocker aleph has for client use is multipart post at the minute
11:39	deadghost	dysfun, I've been thinking of making my project more cljs heavy
11:40	deadghost	make my pages static
11:40	deadghost	keep clojure on the backend for api calls from the pages
11:41	dysfun	client i'm working on today has a clojure site, one page template rendered through selmer and the backend is a single page rum app with server side rendering
11:43	deadghost	dysfun, I don't see too many arguments against rendering clientside
11:43	dysfun	well it's not strictly necessary in this case
11:43	ridcully_	is it intentional, that clojure.inspector/inspect-tree show the same element in a vector only once and leaves gaps for the dups before?
11:43	dysfun	but i do want to understand how to do fully progressive react apps with rum
11:43	deadghost	not really necessary in my case either
11:44	deadghost	it's just easier/nicer for me
11:44	dysfun	but this is just an admin panel
11:44	dysfun	future things i do want it to work for
11:44	deadghost	I guess clientside rendering might slow load times
11:44	deadghost	and that might impact seo or whatever
11:44	dysfun	and my client hasn't complained too loudly about my slackness in doing it, so i get to try things
11:45	dysfun	if i can't browse your website in elinks, it's broken
11:45	deadghost	what is an elink even
11:45	dysfun	elinks is a terminal browser
11:45	TimMc	deadghost: If your site won't display anything without JS, I often just won't come back.
11:45	deadghost	I'm not catering to nerds though
11:45	TimMc	I don't see why I have to run arbitrary programs from you in a VM in order to see your FAQ.
11:46	dysfun	are you catering to people who work in banks stuck on ie8 with scripting restrictions?
11:47	deadghost	no
11:47	dysfun	how about people on slow connections?
11:47	TimMc	or when your JS breaks because a shitware browser extension installed by one of your non-nerd clientele screws with the page
11:47	deadghost	for now, no
11:47	TimMc	You see the most amazing thigns in CSP reports.
11:47	deadghost	hmm TimMc does that happen?
11:48	TimMc	hahahaha yes
11:48	dysfun	i got banned from skyscanner for using ghostery this week
11:48	scriptor	how often
11:48	deadghost	I use pentadactyl and it messes with stuff sometimes
11:48	TimMc	Sometimes the malware will even try to mess with the CSP headers to make itself allowed
11:48	scriptor	deadghost: what kind of app is this
11:48	TimMc	or heck, even antivirus software will do these things
11:48	TimMc	JS is fragile, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
11:49	dysfun	anyway, i think we've established that i don't want to use whatever site deadghost is building
11:49	deadghost	scriptor, makes websites for franchisees of a specific franchise
11:49	scriptor	deadghost: what are the pros to clientside rendering
11:50	TimMc	As long as you use static pages for the basics, I'd still use it. :-)
11:50	deadghost	hmmm
11:50	justin_smith	I make an application, for the most part the fact that it runs in a web browser is an implementation detail - we have no "basics"
11:50	TimMc	There's a chat site I frequent that is all built in React and whatnot, but the home page and etc. are all static.
11:50	justin_smith	I mean there's a home page in wordpress or somesuch, but that's not something I ever touch
11:51	scriptor	I'm fine with actual applications using js rendering. Chat apps, editors, etc.
11:51	TimMc	right
11:51	scriptor	but I'm sick of sites that are just supposed to display text pretending they're an SPA
11:52	dysfun	TimMc: i'm trying to make a react app that decomposes to a useful static stie
11:52	TimMc	but I get the impression these are currently static pages, not an app
11:52	TimMc	dysfun: Yeah, I feel like we're continually just 1-2 years away from websites that can fluently render both clietn and server side.
11:53	dysfun	well, the react team has pulled off server side rendering now
11:53	TimMc	A coworker pointed out that the hard part is the intermediate states of user interactions.
11:53	dysfun	i get it for free through rum
11:53	dysfun	TimMc: yeah, animations and such
11:53	scriptor	it's kind of funny that "server side rendering" is a thing now
11:53	TimMc	heh
11:53	scriptor	like, that was the default 10 years ago
11:53	dysfun	yeah, but it's improved
11:53	dysfun	cause i can build it with reusable components
11:54	justin_smith	"the whole page is a gif, just send the next frame of the animation from the server"
11:54	scriptor	I thought it was more about reusing the front-end code to also generate html on the backend
11:54	TimMc	deadghost: I don't have numbers on how often browser-invading monsters from another world muck with the page, sorry. It's not super uncommon, though.
11:54	scriptor	hence react
11:54	TimMc	justin_smith: oh shit
11:54	TimMc	and make it an imagemap
11:54	justin_smith	exactly!
11:54	justin_smith	total freedom
11:54	ystael	congratulations you have built runescape
11:54	deadghost	I've seen a few sites that display text as gif
11:54	TimMc	please someone make this and then shoot it
11:55	TimMc	ystael: Run, escape!
11:55	dysfun	scriptor: well the point to me is that i just want to write the code once and use it from both contexts. the name is just an artifact of the way react was born in the frontend imo
11:55	ridcully_	justin_smith: and pixel accurate layouts!
11:56	TimMc	(I can't read it any other way.)
11:56	TimMc	dysfun: If rendering react on the server means less XSS, I'm all for it just for that.
11:56	Bronsa	si`
11:56	Bronsa	(welp, wrong window)
11:57	justin_smith	si`
11:57	dysfun	ah yes, and it caught some bad input because it forced me to "do it properly" instead of essentially concatenating strings with a template language
11:58	dysfun	overall, quite happy with "server side rendering"
11:58	dysfun	although that said, i'm using the rum 'static' render, not the react copy the data over one
12:01	deadghost	hmm yeah I think I'll eventually move stuff that can be rendered serverside to the back
12:01	deadghost	I really can't come up with convincing reasons for me to render simple pages clientside
12:01	deadghost	other than it's already written + lazy
12:02	lok[m]	Who can spare 2 hours to settle my tablet?
12:06	TimMc	lazy is good
12:06	deadghost	arguments against clientside rendering isn't strong enough for me to immediately get to it
12:06	MJB47	pretty sure he means lazy as in "cant be bothered to set up server side rendering"
12:07	dysfun	i'd get server side rendering set up early if you want to use the integrated stuff
12:07	dysfun	because it's impossible to debug when it goes wrong
12:07	deadghost	dysfun, integrated?
12:08	dysfun	the native react server side rendering
12:08	deadghost	and you're using node for your server yeah?
12:08	dysfun	it embeds a checksum and such
12:08	dysfun	i'm not using it because something went wrong and i didn't do it early enough i can just mess around in git
12:08	dysfun	so i changed to rum's static rendering instead and the only difference i notice is that react stops barking at me
12:09	deadghost	dysfun, I also get things for free via reagent yeah?
12:09	dysfun	don't think reagent has server side rendering support
12:10	MJB47	it kind of does
12:10	dysfun	and the react server side rendering support is js
12:10	MJB47	https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent-cookbook/tree/master/recipes/reagent-server-rendering
12:10	dysfun	oh ok
12:10	MJB47	in the same way that react does
12:10	dysfun	oh, nashorn
12:10	dysfun	fuck that
12:10	MJB47	well, this is one way to do it
12:10	Bronsa	was gonna say that
12:10	Bronsa	using nashonrn to do server side rendering is a terrible idea
12:11	dysfun	rum can do it without nashorn
12:12	deadghost	ehh maybe I'll think about porting to rum
12:12	deadghost	really my app can be architected much better
12:12	deadghost	but you know
12:12	deadghost	whatever works
12:12	dysfun	gotta say, i was pretty anti-react, but rum swayed me
12:13	MJB47	you dont need to use nashorn for reagent
12:13	dysfun	"you can use rhino too"?
12:13	Frozenlock	dysfun: FYI, some people are looking to replace React in Reagent https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent/issues/271#issuecomment-265795936
12:14	MJB47	https://yogthos.net/posts/2015-11-24-Serverside-Reagent.html
12:14	dysfun	oooh
12:14	MJB47	heres a guide compiling to hiccup
12:14	MJB47	but you can also use node or w/e
12:14	deadghost	what's preact
12:14	deadghost	I can't keep up with all this js
12:14	deadghost	changes every half week
12:15	dysfun	"Fast 3kB alternative to React with the same ES6 API."
12:15	deadghost	what's wrong with react
12:15	dysfun	it's big
12:15	MJB47	its react without all the stuff that makes react usable for production code
12:15	MJB47	so its smaller
12:15	dysfun	what do they remove?
12:15	osfabibisi	dysfun: eeek, HTML in code :-(
12:16	MJB47	i dont remember, i just remember looking into it last month or so
12:16	dysfun	osfabibisi: html as data!
12:16	MJB47	and thinking "well yeah if react dropped support for ie10 it would be smaller too"
12:16	Bronsa	MJB47: that approach won't work for components using react.core/create-class
12:17	osfabibisi	dysfun: as data that your designers can't read! yay!
12:17	MJB47	idk about you but ive never had a designer go in and edit an html template
12:17	MJB47	css rarely
12:17	dysfun	osfabibisi: i've concluded that it doesn't matter
12:17	Frozenlock	Bronsa: that's a bummer, I've used that quite often. :-/
12:17	deadghost	osfabibisi, I'd like to believe designers can understand <p>text</p> == [:p "text"]
12:18	justin_smith	TFW the designer breaks the code with smartquotes
12:18	TimMc	D-:
12:18	dysfun	if you're doing something where react makes sense, you've already jumped the complexity shark and your designer won't keep up anyway
12:18	justin_smith	TimMc: the worst thing is my console font at the time didn't really display the smartquotes differently than normal '"
12:18	TimMc	I want a complexity shark.
12:19	osfabibisi	dysfun: hmm, that's an interesting perspective. I still thought that a more "template animation" approach (like HTML::Zoom) would work with React or similar though
12:19	justin_smith	TimMc: with fricken O(1) lasers
12:19	osfabibisi	I was more interested in cycle.js, but again the devs seem to focus on programmatic code, and I can't get over the strong gag reflex
12:19	osfabibisi	er, programmatic html
12:19	dysfun	HTML::Zoom would be utterly trivial to port to clojure. i was doing the work necessary for it the other week
12:19	deadghost	we like composable data yes
12:20	justin_smith	maybe O(n^n) lasers are better
12:20	dysfun	however, i've long since thought of it as the right answer
12:20	TimMc	http://www.bluebird-electric.net/artificial_intelligence_autonomous_robotics/insectronics_robotics_pictures_animatronic_soldiers/shark-robot-drawings.jpg
12:20	dysfun	rum is very very nice
12:20	osfabibisi	yeah, I keep meaning to port it to Haskell, as I haven't found a templating library I like there
12:20	dysfun	if the cost of that is we need to teach html people a little, so be it
12:20	deadghost	dysfun, how do you have your server set up?
12:21	dysfun	no, i haven't found a haskell templating library i like either
12:21	osfabibisi	you need to teach them to build and run clojure code ... that's arguably not "a little"
12:21	deadghost	do you have nginx reverse proxy to your node server or what?
12:21	dysfun	i haven't deployed any nodejs yet
12:21	deadghost	I've never significantly worked with node servers
12:21	dysfun	the site is currently clojure deployed as an uberjar with aleph behind nginx
12:22	dysfun	or i might have switched it over to apache, i forget
12:22	justin_smith	osfabibisi: if you do it right it should be your version control, plus lein, plus maybe 2 or 3 lein commands
12:23	dysfun	osfabibisi: have you seen figwheel in action? it's super sweet
12:23	dysfun	and you get that with one command from a git checkout
12:23	deadghost	dysfun, when/how do you render your rum stuff?
12:23	justin_smith	trufax
12:23	dysfun	deadghost: i use render-static-html on the server and mount it on the client over the top
12:24	deadghost	is render-static-html a rum fn?
12:24	deadghost	oh rum is clj too
12:24	deadghost	that's neat
12:24	dysfun	yes, rum is very neat
12:25	deadghost	so you're actually using rum from clj
12:25	dysfun	yes
12:25	dysfun	temporarily
12:25	deadghost	hmm?
12:25	dysfun	i'm going to take the clojure out back and shoot it next week to replace it with nodejs
12:25	deadghost	what's the upside
12:26	justin_smith	dysfun: deploy it to a great big server out in the country with lots and lots of ram
12:26	dysfun	haha
12:26	dysfun	deadghost: memory. it's a one page site, the jvm is a little overkill
12:27	deadghost	hmm yeah that's been a great annoyance
12:27	deadghost	when would the jvm > nodejs server
12:27	dysfun	depends what you're doing
12:28	dysfun	if all you are is a frontend to a database, quite possibly never
12:28	dysfun	if you're doing actual transactional logic, then the jvm is a good candidate
12:29	deadghost	dysfun, is that another way of saying heavy computing
12:29	dysfun	sure
12:30	dysfun	in general, "heavyweight" = jvm, "lightweight" = not jvm
12:30	osfabibisi	justin_smith: dysfun: "plus lein" isn't free. It took a pair of devs here a half-day to get `boot repl` running this week...
12:30	justin_smith	that's boot not lein though
12:30	dysfun	also wut?
12:30	dysfun	boot just works here
12:31	justin_smith	I've never had issues getting lein running (unless the project itself is broken, and that's up to the devs)
12:31	osfabibisi	we have a corporate proxy, + installing the right version of java, I think were the issues
12:31	TimMc	ouch
12:31	dysfun	"right version of java"
12:32	dysfun	that should be whatever your distro offers you
12:32	osfabibisi	workaround for proxy was connecting to a different network, which then required reconfiguring email, irc, ssh proxies, etc. (so you can imagine how long we spent trying to configure whatever Java needed to speak to outside world before we gave up ;-)
12:33	sobel	Welp, i just grepped a couple codebases for 'raynes' to be sure. Yup, I'd call that a legacy.
12:33	osfabibisi	yeah, that was fine on my new mac, but caused some fun on $colleague's linux machine
12:34	TimMc	So this is a proxy that you have to configure software for to talk to the outside world?
12:34	osfabibisi	anyway, that busywork is all fine if you're actually writing clojure, skeptical about adding to an HTML designer's workload (+ a dev to handhold them)
12:35	deadghost	dysfun, I'm also considering a migration to cljs only but it sounds like I'd get most of the benefits if I just port my reagent code over to rum
12:35	dysfun	pretty much
12:35	dysfun	and a seamless upgrade path
12:35	osfabibisi	TimMc: it's just a corporate socks proxy. We have e.g. .curlrc and browsers configured to speak to it as part of our onboarding setup. But couldn't figure out getting boot to talk to it
12:35	dysfun	osfabibisi: i've never had to deal with it behind a corporate network, i think this is the difficulty
12:36	deadghost	dysfun, I'm concerned about stuff not quite working cljs only
12:36	deadghost	like datomic
12:37	dysfun	well no, datomic won't work without something clojure
12:37	osfabibisi	dysfun: I guess if we were a JVM dev team already we'd have had the local knowledge too
12:37	dysfun	they have a new model where you can proxy, but you'd still need something to run that
12:38	dysfun	osfabibisi: hrm, i'd say there's a distinct skew in people in here towards people moving from java
12:38	dysfun	perhaps this explains why - only java people pass the jumping through hoops test
12:38	sobel	i used to use squid as a transparent proxy, just redirecting port 80 through it. it was only a slightly special squid config to make it work in transparent mode rather than regular proxy mode, IIRC.
12:39	sobel	if you're building in a container, you might be an iptables statement away from doing the same
12:39	technomancy	dysfun: you mean moving from java-the-language or moving off java-the-platform?
12:40	dysfun	java the language
12:40	sobel	i find it's not that i want to be off java the language or the platform, so much as i want to be able to use other platforms or at least their languages
12:40	TimMc	technomancy: It's nice to see you around here again!
12:41	sobel	clojure has done a pretty interesting job of bridging language gaps and interoperability needs
12:41	technomancy	TimMc: thanks; likewise =)
12:41	sobel	imo
12:41	technomancy	sobel: you mean bridging different languages on the same runtime or bridging different runtimes?
12:42	sobel	technomancy: yes to both
12:43	technomancy	I dunno; whenever I read anything about cljs it's completely baffling to me
12:43	technomancy	IMO it's much easier to change languages than to change runtimes
12:44	dysfun	technomancy: dunno about that, i'm moving over to nodejs pretty easily at the minute
12:44	TimMc	Langauges are easy to learn, ecosystems are hard.
12:44	TimMc	(libraries, build tools, etc.)
12:44	dysfun	and nodejs is vastly improved by the addition of the clojurescript compiler
12:44	sobel	runtimes/ecosystems are an investment. i like being able to harnes those investments under programming languages.
12:45	sobel	i like that the language is flexible enough handle this case without me developing a rich abstraction over my problem space
12:46	dysfun	java and javascript both have libraries for everything you could ever need
12:46	dysfun	and you never know all the libraries you need for a project anyway
12:46	dysfun	and even if you did you'd have to go check the docs to make sure
12:46	justin_smith	there's a few rough edges, like the package/dependency/namespace triad
12:48	sobel	there'll always be things keeping real programmers in work
12:48	sobel	but there's a solid opportunity to share healthy amounts of server code with your client that wasn't there before, and that's kinda cool to me
12:50	TimMc	Certainly if it means not having to reimplement e.g. URL parsing I am so down with that.
12:55	sobel	talking with a peer earlier, we id'd a number of basic data structure transforms that were easily applicable on the server as the client. stuff like menu pruning, message templating/localization/i18n, its entire data edit/cache layer
12:56	sobel	i'd love to sell my team on isolating the server from the database the same way we isolate the client from the database (REST) and that we could do it using the exact same code
13:02	TimMc	sobel: Hmm, time for a business logic layer? :-)
13:03	tdammers	microservices are clearly more webscale than plain old REST
13:03	sobel	https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNELF1GCUAExynU.png
13:05	justin_smith	haha
13:05	sobel	realistically, we have a decade of technical debt and it's not that crazy to refactor it as microservices. there's a concurrent business case that makes it more attractive than it might seem from what i've mentioned so far.
13:06	sobel	namely, opportunities to make smaller sales with relatively more focused products
13:07	sobel	the sad part is i think selling clojure here would be the deal killer. "we'll never get our team using a functional language, we'll never be able to hire that skillset"
13:08	dysfun	so call it an enterprise language then
13:08	sobel	i'm backdooring it through the star engineers (civil engineers, we're not overtly a software co)
13:09	sobel	hehe
13:09	dysfun	"you might think that but i couldn't possibly comment"
13:13	TimMc	sobel: "We'll never be able to hire any of those people who are incredibly eager to get a job using a functional programming language."
13:15	TimMc	(OK, OK, a lot of said people are pretty junior, but when has that stopped people from hiring anyhow...)
13:15	TimMc	Anyway, just call it a Java library. ;-)
13:15	justin_smith	TimMc: framework, surely
13:15	xemdetia	abstract framework factory, surely
13:15	TimMc	That might sell it better, yes.
13:16	TimMc	a list processing framework, if you will
13:16	justin_smith	"it's a framework that injects code dependencies via static data files describing algorithms and updates the classloader to access new native code generated at runtime - cutting edge stuff"
13:17	tdammers	a framework is a library that has forgotten what it set out to do in the first place
13:17	TimMc	A framework is a library with control issues.
13:18	sobel	TimMc: funny, i didn't even ask to use clojure the first time, i just added it to the maven deps and started committing code.
13:18	sobel	because it is exactly a java library
13:18	sobel	i think i'm just going to start saying it's a Thneed
13:18	sobel	(which is a wonderful thing which everyone needs)
13:19	sobel	TimMc: can i quote you on that re: frameworks? :)
13:19	justin_smith	s/clojure/monorail/g
13:20	tdammers	TIL angular insists on having a module system of its own that is both mandatory and incompatible with the existing JS module systems that everyone else uses
13:20	xemdetia	maybe I can get around clojure as a dep if I just call it a JCL
13:22	TimMc	sobel: Sure, but I probably stole it from someone else. :-P
13:23	sobel	fair!
13:32	tdammers	sneaking in technologies behind your stakeholders' back can backfire badly
13:33	tdammers	if you have to do it, start with a small low-stakes project with a very limited scope
13:33	tdammers	use that to show what you can do with this tech
13:33	tdammers	makes it much easier to get management buy-in
13:33	technomancy	or be content to find a new job if it backfires; handy in a last-ditch situation where you already want to leave =)
13:33	tdammers	or that, yes
13:35	tdammers	but assuming that you actually want to keep your job, the ideal situation would be that you build a prototype in, say, clojure, and make it such that you finish it way ahead of the deadline, exceed the expectations, and go crazy on maintainability & readability
13:35	sobel	tdammers: it went through code review by all the eyes who might care. they aren't entirely cutoff from the world of other languages on the jvm; we already have jython and groovy in the mix.
13:35	sobel	it was a small, low-stakes project of limited scope. in fact.
13:35	tdammers	in that case, ignore what I said
13:36	sobel	i mean, i didn't run it up to the director for permission, but i can't operate in a vacuum even if i try
13:36	sobel	the 'sneaking' is that 98% of the other code is java and there's no official line about language use, except the obvious one of getting pushback if it's not in the JVM ecosystem
13:45	pepijndevos	:'(
13:47	TimMc	pepijndevos: ?
13:48	pepijndevos	Raynes. TBH it hit me harder than a friend of my parents passing away last week.
13:49	sobel	pepijndevos: same, it's made me reconsider who my real community is.
13:51	pepijndevos	On really awkward question from a non-native speaker though: What is meant with "bringing him home"?
13:52	deadghost	pepijndevos, they're shipping his body back to his home state
13:55	pepijndevos	Oh ok
13:59	TimMc	I was really happy to see how quickly people raised the money for that.
13:59	TimMc	and more
15:58	{blake}	bringing
15:59	{blake}	Deployment! How does it work? Is there any particular issue with using ring?
15:59	technomancy	nah, ring is great
16:00	justin_smith	if you use 'lein ring server' to run during dev, 'lein ring uberwar' will make a war file you can run in a container and 'lein ring uberjar' will make a standalone jar you can run with a jvm and nothing else
16:01	justin_smith	if you don't use lein ring, 'lein uberjar' will make a standalone you can run with a jvm
16:18	jonathanj	what is a war?
16:19	justin_smith	web archive
16:19	justin_smith	something a servlet container can run
16:19	jonathanj	how do you use it?
16:19	justin_smith	by giving it to tomcat
16:19	technomancy	if you don't already know, you probably don't want to =)
16:19	jonathanj	okay
16:19	justin_smith	or jetty, or wildfly, or whatever
16:19	jonathanj	technomancy: that's more or less what i figured
16:20	justin_smith	jonathanj: the most common way to have it come up is that beanstalk from amazone is pretty easy to use and deploy, and it needs wars (it uses beanstalk)
16:20	jonathanj	justin_smith: thanks!
16:20	justin_smith	err, tomcat
16:20	jonathanj	i'm too poor to deploy stuff on aws
16:21	justin_smith	heh, well, beanstalk spins up easily once it's set up, which is nice, and it needs war files. But just using java with an uberjar is easy enough usually.
16:22	jonathanj	the latter is how i've deployed my ring apps in the past
16:22	jonathanj	what's the advantage of using beanstalk though
16:23	justin_smith	beanstalk is good for like "OK I only need one server but if I get on HN I'll have two minutes notice to have 20 servers running"
16:23	justin_smith	it just generally makes it easy to point-and-click spin up as much as you need, and shut them all down when you're done
16:25	jonathanj	hmm, seems pretty interesting, i don't have any spare money to burn on an experiment but i have a few random uberjar deployments lying around on various machines, i wonder how much it would cost to run them on beanstalk
16:25	justin_smith	along with being able to see all your logs from one place and auto-restart if things crash and easy rolling upgrades and nice things like that
16:25	justin_smith	jonathanj: also, one beanstalk can run more than one app from different routes on one host
16:26	justin_smith	(which is one reason people like the whole container thing)
16:26	jonathanj	what does the word "route" mean in this context?
16:26	justin_smith	jonathanj: http://foo/bar is one route, http://foo/baz is another route
16:26	jonathanj	okay
16:27	justin_smith	each one can be served by a different jar (each one things it is serving /)
16:27	jonathanj	that's prett cool
16:27	jonathanj	how do you configure your applications?
16:27	justin_smith	it's a nice workaround for the heaviness of the vm (as long as the box can handle it all of course)
16:27	justin_smith	there's container level config that decides how routes map to war files (aka jars but with some special config)
16:28	justin_smith	the config for the war tells it how to handle things from inside a container
16:28	jonathanj	how do you configure your application's settings though?
16:28	justin_smith	and then there's some classloader stuff that keeps the apps segregated
16:28	jonathanj	i guess if they're containers there's some way to set up the external environment or something?
16:28	justin_smith	that's also set up in the war and the container (different settings go on each side)
16:29	jonathanj	do you use elastic beanstalk?
16:29	justin_smith	ideally to run in a container you should not be relying on external environment much, and if you do need environment / os tooling then beanstalk might not be a good pick
16:29	justin_smith	I used it extensively in the past
16:29	justin_smith	but not with my current app
16:30	jonathanj	i was mostly wondering how you'd work command line arguments or config files
16:30	justin_smith	oh, yeah, that stuff is all set up by the container
16:31	justin_smith	but really it isn't a "command line argument" any more, rather it's the strings passed to -main (with a well designed app that difference should not matter of course)
16:32	justin_smith	it becomes much easier to rely on resource files on the classpath and jvm system properties, all else being equal
16:36	justin_smith	that's part of what makes environ useful actually, it makes switching the source of that config easy
16:45	{blake}	technomancy, justin_smith thanks
16:45	{blake}	I'm actually deploying to Amazon.
16:46	{blake}	I've got an EC2 but I suspect they'll push me into Beanstalk.
16:57	{blake}	Is there a "search in sorted list" for Clojure?
16:58	justin_smith	{blake}: there's sorted-set and contains?
17:00	{blake}	Sure, but don't those manipulate the existing structure?
17:00	{blake}	Well, I mean, "sorted-set".
17:01	justin_smith	sorted-set is a data type, it's sorted and supports contains?
17:01	justin_smith	it's the closest thing I know of to what you asked about (for clojure built in things at least)
17:04	{blake}	OK, so if I have a list '("apples", "bananas", "cherries", "dates") and want to get back '(2) when I search for "cherries", but exploiting the sorted nature of the list, I think I build my own?
17:04	{blake}	And if I have '("apples", "bananas", "cherries", "cherries", "dates") and want to get back '(2 3)--
17:04	{blake}	Those are the two situations.
17:05	justin_smith	yeah, I don't think clojure has anything built in that would do that
17:05	technomancy	how does sorting a list help if access is still O(n)?
17:06	justin_smith	technomancy: yeah, I would assume it would have to be both sorted and associative (so more of a sorted vector I guess)
17:08	{blake}	The list is already sorted.
17:08	justin_smith	{blake}: the point is that in clojure lists are not associative, getting the nth item takes n steps
17:08	hiredman	but clojure lists don't have random access
17:09	{blake}	Oh, I see. Well, that's what I'm trying to get around. =)
17:09	{blake}	So I should just stay away from lists.
17:10	{blake}	What I really have is an array.
17:10	{blake}	And I'm just trying to get to it from Clojure. I thought I might be able to use lazy-sequences to optimize.
17:11	justin_smith	{blake}: with an array, you can use Arrays/binarySearch
17:12	justin_smith	,(java.util.Arrays/binarySearch (into-array [:a :b :c :d]) :b)
17:12	clojurebot	1
17:12	justin_smith	if it's actually an array, at least
17:12	justin_smith	,(java.util.Arrays/binarySearch (into-array [:a :c :d :b]) :b) ; fails if the array is not sorted
17:12	clojurebot	-2
17:45	neoncontrails	Any suggestions for a sexy, real-world example of Specter in action?
17:46	ridcully_	the author did a nice example with ballancing bank accounts on a conference. thats you yt
17:46	neoncontrails	The impression I'm getting from the docs is that a certain map structure is required in order to get optimal use out of it
17:49	justin_smith	how so?
17:53	neoncontrails	I could be wrong. Lots of the examples involve numerical predicates on indices, and nested arrays
18:00	neoncontrails	justin_smith: say you have a somewhat nested collection of components whose values and sequence doesn't really change, but accessing the appropriate datum is awfully longwinded in the base cljs syntax. Is Specter a good fit? Is Om/cursors possibly a better fit?
18:02	neoncontrails	I do see that Specter has primitives for declaring paths, but it seems like this is mainly for mapping functions and operations over trees
18:12	markmarkmark	neoncontrails: it looks like you can use the select family of functions/macros to just get things from a collection using a path
18:39	libertytrader	hola
18:40	markmarkmark	o/
20:43	tianshu	Hey, guys, it's possible to have some sounds when grep command have any output?
20:44	tianshu	is it possible? or easy to implement?
22:17	danneu	you could pipe grep into a script that does it
22:35	Kenai	Hey folks. Is there a UI builder out there for Reagent?