#clojure – 2016-04-11

2016-04-11

00:00	amalloy	(reverse []) => (nil)
00:00	justin_smith	amalloy: good point
00:00	justin_smith	,(def myrev (partial into ()))
00:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/myrev
00:00	justin_smith	,(myrev (range 10))
00:00	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: myrev in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: myrev in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6688]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: myrev in this...
00:00	justin_smith	,(def myrev (partial into ()))
00:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/myrev
00:00	justin_smith	,(myrev (range 10))
00:00	clojurebot	(9 8 7 6 5 ...)
00:00	justin_smith	not lazy though
00:02	amalloy	reverse never is
00:02	lewis	,(first (sorted-set 5 7 2 7))
00:02	clojurebot	2
00:03	mmercer	sorted-set is a binary tree, and set is?
00:04	lewis	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentTreeSet
00:05	amalloy	you asked this 8 hours ago, mmercer. what was unsatisfying about the answer?
00:06	lewis	amalloy: justin_smith: my reserve do not work on sets
00:06	lewis	s/reserve/reverse*
00:06	justin_smith	lewis: call seq before destructuring
00:06	justin_smith	or use first/rest instead of destructuring
00:07	sdegutis	So, the past few years, there's been songs that I liked and I was like "Wait a second! This is a guitar song!! I CAN PLAY THIS!!!" But then I looked up the chords and it was non-standard tuning, and I didn't trust my crappy old guitar to be able to be tuned back.
00:07	sdegutis	But now, I have a semi-okay guitar, and a tuner thing on it, so I realized I can play things like Bon Iver's Skinny Love now, stuff with alternative tunings!
00:07	sdegutis	Which is cool... except I can't remember ANY of those songs from the past that had alternative tunings.
00:07	justin_smith	sdegutis: one guitar for each song
00:08	sdegutis	And I didn't keep track of them either.
00:08	sdegutis	So I like have no idea what songs those were which I want to play which have alternative tunings.
00:08	sdegutis	And I'm just sort of hoping I eventually come across them, even though I can't remember how I came across them before (none of the songs in my iTunes library fit the bill).
00:11	lewis	justin_smith: thanks
00:12	lewis	justin_smith: following my example, im reading other solutions
00:12	lewis	reduce #(conj %1 %2) () - i understand this
00:12	lewis	reduce conj () - I dont understand this
00:13	amalloy	#(conj %1 %2) is just conj
00:13	justin_smith	lewis: what is the difference between #(conj %1 %2) and conj?
00:13	justin_smith	ahh, sniped :)
00:13	amalloy	yours was in the form of a quetion though, so you win
00:13	amalloy	socrates had it right
00:13	sdegutis	amalloy: that's not true, conj can take more than 2 arguments
00:14	justin_smith	amalloy: it's defensive, that way I learn something if they are onto something I missed
00:14	troydm	I have an transient vector, and I want to drop last element from it, how do I do that without converting it to persistant and back?
00:14	sdegutis	justin_smith: mark this day, the first time amalloy has been wrong about something in clojure
00:14	justin_smith	sdegutis: in a reduce there's no difference though, because reduce always gives you two args
00:14	sdegutis	correct
00:16	amalloy	can anyone think of an exception to "reduce always gives you two args"?
00:16	lewis	conj is the function without arguments, justin_smith: so reduce pass the arg by default
00:16	justin_smith	not me
00:16	tolstoy	reduce-kv?
00:16	justin_smith	lewis: what does "the function without arguments" mean?
00:17	amalloy	,(reduce #(conj %1 %2) ())
00:17	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox/eval27/fn--28"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox/eval27/fn--28"\n :at [clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]\n [clojure.lang.AFn invoke "AFn.java" 28]\n [clojure.core.protocols$iter_reduce invokeStat...
00:17	lewis	,(reduce #(conj %1 %2) () [ 1 2 3 4])
00:17	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1)
00:17	lewis	,(reduce conj () [ 1 2 3 4])
00:17	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1)
00:18	lewis	justin_smith: it means the operator
00:18	justin_smith	what?
00:18	clojurebot	what is seq
00:18	lewis	(operator operand1 operand2)
00:18	justin_smith	lewis: a function is a function
00:19	justin_smith	lewis: I have no idea what you mean by "function with no args" in this context - conj always needs args
00:19	lewis	i meant without operands*
00:19	justin_smith	do you mean a bound function rather than a literal?
00:19	justin_smith	what? it has operands
00:19	justin_smith	it just doesn't have a literal inline notation
00:20	justin_smith	because it's a definition and not a function literal
00:20	lewis	without explicit operands then
00:20	justin_smith	lewis: conj is conj, conj called with two args and #(conj %1 %2) always do the same thing
00:20	justin_smith	(if called with the same two args)
00:22	justin_smith	#(conj %1 %2) is a sugar for (fn [x y] (conj x y)) which is just an elaborate way of calling conj, and can usually be replaced by conj itself (unless you are trying to be stricter about argument count or something)
00:22	sdegutis	oh man
00:23	sdegutis	Are there any more big surprises in store for Clojure?
00:23	sdegutis	All sorts of cool things were happening, things like destructuring were invented.
00:23	sdegutis	Now it's, like, "we're adding a socket config to make things a little easier"
00:23	tolstoy	You mean, what would a Clojure 2.0 be?
00:24	sdegutis	Well I dunno, versions these days are weird.
00:24	sdegutis	I just mean, compare Clojure 1.0 to Clojure 1.5, big changes happened. Now look at Clojure 1.5 compared to Clojure 1.8, not a whole lot in comparison. Mostly transducers.
00:24	lewis	justin_smith: I see/ i got confused
00:26	sdegutis	(doc fold)
00:26	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
00:26	sdegutis	clojurebot: just print the damn doc please
00:26	clojurebot	Excuse me?
00:26	sdegutis	,(doc foldcat)
00:27	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
00:27	sdegutis	clojurebot: you're a real jerk
00:27	tolstoy	For some reason I think the defprotocol in 1.2 was the biggest deal, but just subjectice.
00:27	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
00:27	sdegutis	tolstoy: also destructure was around then
00:27	sdegutis	tolstoy: before then there was literally no destructuring anywhere
00:27	justin_smith	,(require 'clojure.core.reducers)
00:28	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Could not locate clojure/core/reducers__init.class or clojure/core/reducers.clj on classpath."\n :via\n [{:type java.io.FileNotFoundException\n :message "Could not locate clojure/core/reducers__init.class or clojure/core/reducers.clj on classpath."\n :at [clojure.lang.RT load "RT.java" 456]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT load "RT.java" 456]\n [clojure.lang.RT load "RT.java"...
00:28	justin_smith	sdegutis: fold is in reducers, I dunno why clojurebot doesn't know about reducers?
00:28	sdegutis	yeah weird
00:29	tolstoy	sdegutis: The reason I was thinking protocols were a big deal was that it made (or was a step) toward making clojure-in-clojure possible.
00:29	justin_smith	tolstoy: sure, but there's no rush to make clojure-in-clojure happen
00:30	sdegutis	tolstoy: oh i see
00:30	tolstoy	justin_smith: Right. But (subjectively) that 1.2 release seemed significant because of that new abstraction.
00:30	sdegutis	tolstoy: only the compiler could be rewritten in clojure, not the runtime, which isnt super useful for any particular reason
00:30	tolstoy	Although "starts-with?" and "ends-with?" in clojure.string hit me where I live most of the time. ;)
00:31	sdegutis	I'd much sooner prefer to have a Clojure in C, with a small compiler and runtime similar to Lua's -- which I was trying to work on but I don't get paid to do it and have no actual use for it so I put it on indefinite hold
00:31	sdegutis	... but it would be cool as heck.
00:31	tolstoy	There's pixielang. Sorta close.
00:32	rhg135	if by close you mean in the same universe :P
00:33	justin_smith	rhg135: I can't think of a language more similar to clojure that is not a fork of clojure
00:33	rhg135	A while ago I had to embed in a C app
00:33	rhg135	it was scary
00:33	tolstoy	I think pixielang has a nice FFI to C, no?
00:34	rhg135	does it?
00:34	justin_smith	I've seen nicer, but I've seen worse too
00:34	rhg135	that's nice
00:34	rhg135	FFI from C though...
00:34	tolstoy	Okay, I mean, it has one.
00:35	tolstoy	I once tweeted "I hope someone does a Clojure on top of Swift." Baldridge responded, "I'm tempted." I'm still hoping.
00:35	sdegutis	tolstoy: kinda sorta
00:36	sdegutis	tolstoy: the whole fun of writing a language that bridges to C though is that you then have access (assuming you build a decent FFI) to way tons of cool libs
00:36	sdegutis	tolstoy: thats not true with swift
00:36	tolstoy	Well, okay. But Swift boils down to LLVM. Is there no interop with C?
00:37	sdegutis	tolstoy: its kind of there but its 1-way and terrible
00:37	justin_smith	sdegutis: on one side it's very easy to interact with c, but you inherit all of c's problems, on the other side, you don't deal with c's bs, but it's hard to interoperate (or at least computationally expensive with all the boxing/unboxing and manual tracking of which values c keeps track of and which your language does)
00:38	justin_smith	there's a lot of room in the middle, but the best spot is subjective (but langs that can parse .h files are handy)
00:38	sdegutis	heh
00:38	sdegutis	justin_smith: until you start dealing with C macros and # includes etc
00:39	sdegutis	and include-guards
00:39	sdegutis	oh man
00:39	ben_vulpes	sdegutis: stahp
00:39	sdegutis	you're basically writing the CPreP
00:39	ben_vulpes	plz no bully
00:39	ben_vulpes	there's also clasp if one wants a llvlisp
00:39	sdegutis	man i just wanna find those songs
00:39	justin_smith	sdegutis: there's langs that find ways to do it, and it makes using c much easier.
00:39	sdegutis	justin_smith: i kind of admire lua's approach but hated it as an end user
00:40	sdegutis	they're just like "we dont care"
00:40	sdegutis	"about anything. at all."
00:40	ben_vulpes	"hey man"
00:40	ben_vulpes	"programming's just strings"
00:40	sdegutis	haha
00:40	sdegutis	stringly typed
00:40	sdegutis	oh yah that reminds me i came up with a good solution to stringly typed map keys
00:40	ben_vulpes	"just concatenate your calls together at runtime and eval 'em"
00:40	ben_vulpes	#yolo
00:40	sdegutis	(defaccessor foo)
00:41	sdegutis	it expand to (def foo :foo)
00:41	sdegutis	:D
00:41	sdegutis	im not joking, i literally did this for work last week.
00:41	sdegutis	its there in production right now.
00:42	ben_vulpes	sdegutis: b-but why
00:42	justin_smith	(defmacro defidentity [sym] `(def ~'sym ~sym))
00:43	sdegutis	i just kept feeling anxious every time I typed (:videos-service env) and was wondering if it was plural or singular
00:43	justin_smith	it's a layer of error-checking you don't get for keywords, yeah
00:43	justin_smith	maybe someone will even find a valid usecase for defidentity
00:43	sdegutis	justin_smith: your version is broken
00:43	justin_smith	it's something different
00:43	sdegutis	,(defmacro defidentity [sym] `(def ~'sym ~sym))
00:43	justin_smith	sdegutis: given foo, it should define foo to be foo
00:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/defidentity
00:43	sdegutis	,(defidentity foo)
00:44	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6688]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this conte...
00:44	justin_smith	sdegutis: foo has to exist
00:44	justin_smith	,(def foo 1)
00:44	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
00:44	justin_smith	,(defidentity foo)
00:44	clojurebot	#'sandbox/sym
00:44	sdegutis	,(defidentity foo)
00:44	clojurebot	#'sandbox/sym
00:44	justin_smith	oh, that's broken
00:44	sdegutis	see thats what i said
00:44	sdegutis	i use the ~' trick often
00:44	sdegutis	so i know it when i see it
00:45	sdegutis	and yes i know its a literally terrible practice and amalloy would have a heart attack if he ever saw code like it
00:45	sdegutis	but it works
00:45	sdegutis	,sym
00:45	clojurebot	1
00:46	sdegutis	justin_smith: what were you actually going for tho?
00:46	sdegutis	i cant even imagine what the code was sposta be
00:46	justin_smith	sdegutis: (definidentity foo) should become (def foo foo)
00:46	sdegutis	that sounds 110% useless
00:46	justin_smith	it was meant to be
00:46	ben_vulpes	,(defidentity :h)
00:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/sym
00:46	sdegutis	,sym
00:46	clojurebot	:h
00:46	justin_smith	yeah, it's broken
00:47	sdegutis	,(defmacro defidentity [sym] `(def ~sym ~sym))
00:47	clojurebot	#'sandbox/defidentity
00:47	sdegutis	(defidentity foo)
00:47	sdegutis	,(defidentity foo)
00:47	justin_smith	yeah, that's the right definition
00:47	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
00:47	sdegutis	,foo
00:47	clojurebot	1
00:47	sdegutis	,(defidentity :g)
00:47	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "First argument to def must be a Symbol"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: First argument to def must be a Symbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6875]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "First argument to def must be a Symbol"\n :at [cloju...
00:47	sdegutis	hahaha def sucks
00:48	justin_smith	sdegutis: oh! not totally useless - it replaces the previously useful metadata with new misleading metadata
00:48	justin_smith	sdegutis: eg. the source line etc.
00:48	sdegutis	hahaha
00:48	justin_smith	also probably eliminates a docstring
00:48	sdegutis	defobfuscate
00:48	sdegutis	,(defidentity map)
00:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "denied"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6875]}\n {:type java.lang.SecurityException\n :message "denied"\n :at [clojurebot.sandbox$enable_security_manager$fn__835 invoke "sandbox.clj" 69]}]\n :trace\n [[clojureb...
00:48	sdegutis	haha jerk clojurebot
00:49	tolstoy	Maybe use the name "definitely"?
00:49	sdegutis	;D
00:51	justin_smith	sdegutis: re-reify
00:53	tolstoy	re-iffy
00:59	rhg135	,(defn obfuscate [v] (alter-meta! v (constantly {:macro (:macro (meta v))}))
00:59	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
00:59	rhg135	,(defn obfuscate [v] (alter-meta! v (constantly {:macro (:macro (meta v))}))
00:59	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
01:02	bmuk	I'm trying to write a function which, given a seq of directories, returns a flat collection of all the files below those directories. Obviously this calls for recursion, and my insinct is to use cond, check the base case (seq is empty), and reduce the results. As I understand it, the JVM performs poorly with this kind of recursion. What is the best and most idiomatic way to do this?
01:02	clojurebot	I don't understand.
01:03	rhg135	,(meta #'map) ; I think I broke clojurebot
01:03	clojurebot	{:macro nil}
01:04	tolstoy	bmuk Have you tried file-seq?
01:06	tolstoy	Oh. Hm. Doesn't answer the question, I guess.
01:06	bmuk	tolstoy: I wasn't aware of it but it looks promising
01:06	tolstoy	(mapcat #(file-seq %) [dir1 dir2])? Something like that?
01:08	rhg135	self-calls in lazy-seqs are ok iirc
01:08	bmuk	that looks like exactly what I need
01:08	mmercer	clojure newb.. is there a difference between #(file-seq %) and just file-seq?
01:09	bmuk	mmercer++, exactly what I was about to ask. Or 'file-seq or something. Ran into that issue when trying to (map .getPath '(file1 file2))
01:09	rhg135	yes, one takes only one arg (but I think file-seq does anyway) and that first fn has different metadata
01:09	tolstoy	(mapcat #(file-seq (java.io.File. %)) ["bin" "Desktop"])
01:10	rhg135	#() expands to (fn [] ()) which creates a new function
01:10	bmuk	rhg135 I know that, but why can't I just pass map the .getPath function?
01:10	tolstoy	Yeah, I always to the #() thing until I all of a sudden see it's not necessary.
01:10	rhg135	by new function I mean a clojure.lang.IFN object
01:11	rhg135	methods aren't objects, bmuk
01:11	bmuk	ahh. My java knowledge is limited. .NET dev by day
01:12	bmuk	not even sure if C# methods are objects
01:12	rhg135	(.method x) is sugar for (. x (method)) and in the jvm you can't pass around methods, just objects
01:13	rhg135	so you can pass around an IFn object that calls the method, but not the method itself
01:13	rhg135	(doc memfn)
01:13	dysfun	methods are just too attached to objects, you can't separate them as such
01:13	clojurebot	"([name & args]); Expands into code that creates a fn that expects to be passed an object and any args and calls the named instance method on the object passing the args. Use when you want to treat a Java method as a first-class fn. name may be type-hinted with the method receiver's type in order to avoid reflective calls."
01:14	rhg135	,(memfn toString) ; thusly
01:14	clojurebot	#object[sandbox$eval48$fn__49 0x5743a3c1 "sandbox$eval48$fn__49@5743a3c1"]
01:14	rhg135	,(macroexpand-1 '(memfn toString)) ; rather
01:14	dysfun	rhg135: hrm, didn't know about memfn, neat!
01:14	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [target76] (. target76 (toString)))
01:15	bmuk	yeah, this is really good info, thank you
01:15	rhg135	it's a very nice thing
01:15	bmuk	I had heard before that clojure could compile to CLR as well, is that still a thing?
01:16	dysfun	we've had a few discussions about that recently actually
01:16	dysfun	it's not what i'd call 'actively maintained'
01:16	dysfun	it still sees the occasional commit, but it's more a labour of love than something i'd deploy to production at this point
01:17	dysfun	however if in particular you wish to make games, arcadia is a clojure wrapper for unity
01:18	bmuk	well we're thinking about using clojure where it makes sense for us in production, if that ever means we could benefit from that I'd be happy to submit PRs for any bugs I find
01:18	bmuk	at this point CLR interop isn't something I really need since I'm calling a json api anyway
01:19	dysfun	well personally i'd love to see the CLR clojure get some more weight behind it :)
01:20	dysfun	scala abandoned their effort at .NET a few years ago, so clojure is basically the only JVM lang that also supports .NET basically in any fashion at all right now
01:20	rhg135	now that the CLR is OSS I can possibly work on it
01:20	dysfun	or the only one anyone has ever heard of, anyway
01:20	bmuk	that's what I was about to bring up
01:21	rhg135	before thenI'd have to sell a bit of my soul to MS
01:22	bmuk	although you only get the benefit of OSS CLR if you upgrade your project to the latest .net, which has a lot of changes so it's an undertaking
01:22	bmuk	lol yeah
01:22	dysfun	i considered it too, then i realised that the JVM is really very good and that .NET isn't offering me anything over that
01:22	bmuk	dysfun, I think the utility is really more for MS shops that would like to incorporate clojure
01:22	dysfun	yes, absolutely
01:23	rhg135	also before then the only way to use it was to pay MS for windows, or hope mono has no bugs besides those in CLR (lmao)
01:23	dysfun	and sounds like you're one of those
01:23	dysfun	i thought mono was a bug?
01:23	bmuk	haha
01:23	rhg135	hence the lmao
01:24	dysfun	i think mono is a major reason why i don't like a standard linux desktop
01:24	rhg135	or even better, hope wine has no bugs (lmao-er)
01:24	dysfun	KDE is fugly and every GNOME distro either ships banshee (GTK#) or something ancient and shit for music
01:24	rhg135	I don't use mono except for writing C#
01:25	rhg135	KDE doesn't even use mono iirc
01:25	bmuk	I'm a minimalist so I pretty much only use emacs, firefox, and terminal applications when in linux lol
01:25	rhg135	I just use an xterm with vim...
01:26	dysfun	well, right now, i've got a terminal, emacs and firefox open...
01:26	rhg135	heh
01:26	rhg135	same here actually
01:26	bmuk	there's actually a pretty good music program for emacs
01:27	rhg135	except for the vim inside the remote connection in my terminal
01:27	dysfun	i haven't even plugged in my amp yet so no music on my desktop
01:27	rhg135	I had to fix a bug in my remote cloudbot
01:27	rhg135	because hot-reloading python is a great idea
01:28	dysfun	don't go there :)
01:28	dysfun	naw, for real OOM action you need a JVM
01:28	bmuk	dysfun: for when you plug in your amp: https://github.com/dbrock/bongo
01:28	ben_vulpes	i want my next computer to completely eschew audio
01:28	dysfun	bmuk: ta!
01:28	rhg135	I'm running this on a rpi model 1; any leak = OOM
01:29	ben_vulpes	aren't there consumer electronics for that?
01:29	dysfun	ben_vulpes: for playing music? yes, i have a mac laptop here
01:29	bmuk	rhg135: what is the feasibility of running clojure on an rpi?
01:29	dysfun	although itunes has started to suck since Steve Jobs died
01:29	ben_vulpes	i was thinking about the handheld devices...
01:30	ben_vulpes	dysfun: iTunes was rotting on the vine five years ago.
01:30	ben_vulpes	if not seven.
01:30	rhg135	bmuk: very feasible. It runs fine
01:30	dysfun	no, it was ok a few years ago
01:30	dysfun	recently they just change everything for the sake of change
01:30	ben_vulpes	much like winamp, it achieved adequacy at its task and was bloated beyond recognition by user experience experts.
01:30	dysfun	and i'm finally going to finish writing my media organisation tool because i'm annoyed with it
01:30	ben_vulpes	dysfun: you don't say!
01:30	rhg135	just be careful with the ram, bmuk
01:31	bmuk	I still have winamp installed solely for milkdrop
01:31	rhg135	no leaks
01:31	ben_vulpes	i just started a project out of rage at itunes and friends
01:31	rhg135	rage projects are nice
01:31	dysfun	bmuk: did you know milkdrop was created by some nutjob evangelical who wanted to stop people doing drugs by giving them pretty pictures without hallucinogens?
01:31	bmuk	rhg135: that's what I was worried about. Probably a noob question but would running cljs under node alleviate some of that (v8 mem performance vs JVM)?
01:31	rhg135	that's why com.rhg135/killslack exists
01:32	dysfun	bmuk: if i were deploying to raspi, i'd use cljs
01:32	rhg135	you know, bmuk, I dislike cljs
01:32	ben_vulpes	> pretty pictures
01:32	bmuk	dysfun: I did not know that lmao
01:32	rhg135	it's a neutered clj imo
01:32	ben_vulpes	> hallucinogens
01:33	ben_vulpes	myeah because /that's/ what that's about.
01:33	dysfun	i dislike using a binary oracle jvm just to get acceptable performance of my clojure :)
01:33	ben_vulpes	webstack
01:33	ben_vulpes	best tech is proprietary
01:33	ben_vulpes	> jvm
01:33	ben_vulpes	> datomic
01:33	dysfun	bmuk: i don't think he anticipated that immediately everyone seeing milkdrop thinks "cool, wish i was on acid"
01:33	dysfun	the jvm is not proprietary
01:34	bmuk	I think that's called the barbra streisand effect
01:34	dysfun	slightly different thing, but yes
01:34	tolstoy	Is the Oracle JVM faster then OpenJDK?
01:34	dysfun	on ARM, yes.
01:34	bmuk	cljs is useful because it runs client-side. I have no alternative client-side language with hot reloading and meta programming capabilities
01:35	dysfun	bmuk: much as i'm loathe to admit it, javascript fits that bill
01:35	bmuk	I guess it would have to lol
01:35	ben_vulpes	hey
01:35	ben_vulpes	hey
01:35	dysfun	not that i'm saying you should use js. nobody wants to
01:35	ben_vulpes	why not put the jvm in the browser
01:36	tolstoy	heh.
01:36	dysfun	because it would be a security nightmare. so glad they NEVER DID THAT.
01:36	ben_vulpes	no it'll be fiiine!
01:36	ben_vulpes	hahaha
01:36	rhg135	meta-programming in cljs? only at compile time
01:37	bmuk	meanwhile the captive portal at my old college was a java web app. NBD lol
01:37	dysfun	i can top that
01:37	dysfun	when i was over at nokia, we had to use this thing that was an activex control
01:37	dysfun	and on top of that it was completely shit
01:37	bmuk	rhg135: I guess since I don't know it that well I'm assuming it has feature parity with clj
01:37	rhg135	keep the delusion, man
01:38	rhg135	you'll be happier
01:38	dysfun	rhg135: er, well since cljs is self-bootstrapping, it's not out of the question...
01:38	ben_vulpes	javascript is an amazingly flexible language
01:38	rhg135	to be fair, people can get far with it
01:38	tolstoy	I worked at a place that went from Java Applet -> Perl webforms -> emailed Excel spreadsheets for procurement
01:38	bmuk	haha well no matter how behind it is I think I'd prefer writing cljs over Razor code
01:39	ben_vulpes	my boss once made me implement a full delegate pattern in javascript
01:39	rhg135	dysfun: true, but even then it isn't now
01:39	rhg135	I mean noreified namespaces pfft
01:39	dysfun	heh, i was reading the gang of four this weekend ("Design Patterns"). I don't miss thinking in OO terms.
01:40	jeaye	Using clojure clr, I can say (.name (first foo)) but I can't say (map .name foo), since .name ends up not being found.
01:40	jeaye	How can I do it?
01:40	dysfun	#(.name %)
01:40	jeaye	Ah, dirty
01:40	jeaye	Works, thanks.
01:40	rhg135	js is a lisp in algol clothes more or less
01:40	dysfun	or memfn
01:41	bmuk	for a while when I started this job it was really hard for me to make my brain grok OOP again
01:41	rhg135	one of those mutable-happy ones
01:41	dysfun	rhg135: it's really not. lisp is all about the values
01:41	rhg135	js has values
01:41	ben_vulpes	> js is a lisp
01:41	ben_vulpes	OHOHOHO
01:41	ben_vulpes	HAW HAW HAW
01:41	tolstoy	JavaScript Isn't Scheme: http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/
01:41	ben_vulpes	man i don't know shit about shinola and even i find that entertaining
01:42	rhg135	it's the closest to in the mainstream rather
01:42	ben_vulpes	sure
01:42	dysfun	would just like to point this out at this point. McCarthy is pretty much the expert on lisp http://www.defmacro.de/?p=13
01:42	ben_vulpes	just like "american cheese" is the closest to tillamook aged white cheddar
01:42	ben_vulpes	doesn't make it fucking /cheddar/
01:42	rhg135	that stuff is disgusting
01:43	tolstoy	But it's yellow-orange.
01:43	ben_vulpes	but hey
01:43	ben_vulpes	it's "cheese"
01:43	rhg135	"american cheese"
01:43	ben_vulpes	like js is "lisp"
01:43	rhg135	"cheese"
01:43	bmuk	what happened to the lisp machines? Why would anyone ever move from having all the benefits of lisp all the way down to not having them?
01:44	rhg135	performance? maybe
01:44	rhg135	but lol
01:44	dysfun	bmuk: that's a surprisingly long story. suffice to say that in the end, efficiency won out
01:44	ben_vulpes	very long story, but the long and short of it was that usg dole ran out.
01:45	ben_vulpes	i can play the unsubstantiated historical claims game too, dysfun !
01:45	dysfun	and these days we can have whatever environment we like, so long as we build it in software
01:45	bmuk	do you see us returning there at some point or does that even matter in our post-virtualization era
01:45	ben_vulpes	> whatever environment we like
01:46	bmuk	exactly ^
01:46	ben_vulpes	categorically untrue.
01:46	dysfun	ben_vulpes: but it's such a dull story. you really don't want me to
01:46	ben_vulpes	show me a language that doesn't need bounds-checking.
01:46	dysfun	agda
01:46	ben_vulpes	(or perform it under the hood!)
01:46	dysfun	assembler
01:46	bmuk	just because an environment doesn't exist doesn't mean it cannot be done
01:47	bmuk	theoretically software can do anything
01:47	dysfun	anything 'technically feasible', yes
01:47	ben_vulpes	except for halt the processor, a la lisp machines.
01:47	dysfun	oh, you want to bring back the HCF instruction?
01:47	ben_vulpes	just the H part
01:47	tolstoy	I think the era of an environment vs a collection of specialzed tools is over, alas.
01:47	ben_vulpes	chip could motherfucking loop in place
01:48	dysfun	you do realise that the lisp machines weren't exactly fast, don't you?
01:48	dysfun	i can emulate one in software hundreds of times faster than they ran
01:48	ben_vulpes	ofc
01:48	ben_vulpes	i have done some amount of research dysfun
01:48	ben_vulpes	doubtless not as much as you
01:48	dysfun	hardware design is hard. ultimately we had to make computers dumber and more flexible
01:48	ben_vulpes	you might even have been so lucky as to have worked with them!
01:49	ben_vulpes	nah, cheap micros for the masses one out.
01:49	dysfun	i have not worked with a lisp machine, but i've been doing lisp for a looong time ;)
01:49	rhg135	computers are rather fast these days to the point that I prefer working code
01:49	ben_vulpes	we didn't "had to" anything.
01:49	dysfun	we really did
01:49	dysfun	society demanded we have more computational power, and it needed to be provided
01:50	ben_vulpes	what "society" what "demand"
01:50	ben_vulpes	Yours,
01:50	ben_vulpes	Society
01:50	ben_vulpes	"a million chickens"?
01:50	dysfun	there was a market for computational power. the demand increased and so people provided
01:50	dysfun	and the lispms weren't very good at it
01:50	ben_vulpes	goodness, no
01:51	dysfun	and you could not have had a 2GHz lisp machine even if they'd kept plugging away at it
01:51	ben_vulpes	nor were gothic cathedrals frequently defensible castles.
01:51	tolstoy	Ah, come on. The demise was part hardware, sure, but also no one really wanted a Big Environment (like Smalltalk, etc).
01:51	dysfun	you're like my flatmate. he has a huge pile of antiquated hardware and goes on about how great it was. meanwhile i just want to get my work done
01:51	tolstoy	IMHO, Lisp Machine/Smalltalk --> Excel.
01:52	ben_vulpes	dysfun: you use vim, iirc?
01:52	dysfun	tolstoy: forth was the start of that
01:52	dysfun	ben_vulpes: emacs.
01:52	ben_vulpes	huh i wonder who i was thinking of
01:52	dysfun	i think justin moved to vim recently
01:52	ben_vulpes	dysfun: i don't object to the getting of work done!
01:53	dysfun	no, i mean i'm a pragmatist
01:53	ben_vulpes	heck, i work in clojure and don't crucify myself on cl or haskell or something.
01:53	dysfun	i have a lovely laptop, but it's not up to developing clojure, so i stole my flatmate's desktop
01:53	ben_vulpes	it's just hard to live on the c machine with sockets and what have you and read about how the lisp machines would let you talk directly to the nic
01:53	dysfun	haha, most of my work is in clojure, but the last week i've been doing a lot of haskell
01:54	ben_vulpes	or the wonders of the symbolics typesetter, or the distributed lisp persistence layers they built...
01:54	ben_vulpes	and i see...mysql. postgresql. mongo.
01:54	dysfun	have you looked at what they did for smalltalk?
01:54	ben_vulpes	fucking indesign
01:54	ben_vulpes	nah, symbolics depressed me enough
01:54	ben_vulpes	i know a guy who still works in smalltalk!
01:54	ben_vulpes	loves it. works on his own.
01:54	dysfun	smalltalk had many good object databases
01:55	dysfun	probably still does
01:55	dysfun	there are still smalltalk implementations that cost money
01:56	ben_vulpes	but the root of my gripe with compute is the end user development environment
01:56	dysfun	yup, it's terrible. but a lot of people are working on fixing it
01:56	dysfun	and clojure fares better than most
01:56	ben_vulpes	dunno about "fix"
01:56	ben_vulpes	seems rather unmendable from this novice viewpoint.
01:57	dysfun	i don't believe that to be the case
01:57	ben_vulpes	but hey, clojure's a decent set of tentacles with which to wrassle the beast.
01:57	ben_vulpes	dysfun: but it's a matter of /belief/
01:57	ben_vulpes	neither of us are going to stake the next 20 years on making it happen, i don't think.
01:57	dysfun	yeah, but i've been programming for 16 years. i know what's possible by now
01:58	dysfun	and i put an enormous amount of time into open source work with one of the goals being to improve the development experience
01:58	ben_vulpes	likely just a failure of imagination on my part.
01:58	dysfun	it's just something that comes with time
01:58	dysfun	and learning a lot of languages
01:58	ben_vulpes	dysfun: how've you been driving it forwards?
01:59	ben_vulpes	more languages
01:59	tolstoy	Were Lisp Machines (etc) really about "software development", or were they just super sophisticated shells for people who needed to get other stuff done?
01:59	ben_vulpes	dysfun: ^^ ?
01:59	tolstoy	Scientists, etc?
01:59	ben_vulpes	(i always imagined the latter)
01:59	dysfun	well for a start, i've been working on a clojure llvm backend that has full tracing of what optimisation does to the code
01:59	ben_vulpes	wooooooooee
02:00	dysfun	tolstoy: they saw the beauty in what mccarthy did and thought "hey, this is a great why to think about code". but all code was academic back then really
02:00	tolstoy	Yeah. So I think Excel is the spiritual successor, more than OSX, Windows, etc.
02:01	dysfun	i don't think there is a spiritual successor
02:01	dysfun	the one thing we have truly lost is everything being a function
02:01	tolstoy	But that's from a dev perspective, I'm talking a user/customer perspective.
02:01	dysfun	imagine if all applications were split into screens, android-style and each one was a function call away
02:02	dysfun	now pretend you've made the UI over functions much easier, and suddenly the user can do a lot more
02:02	tolstoy	Spiritual successor != better, just that it lest people do all the calculations, graphing, etc, etc, they want without "programming" with text files.
02:02	ben_vulpes	imagine if you could get into the guts of eg solidworks
02:02	dysfun	we make enormous mistakes assuming that people who use excel are not good with technology. you'd be amazed what users do
02:03	ben_vulpes	hand-cranked asm too
02:03	dysfun	tolstoy: right, but the closest i can come up with is 'office'
02:03	dysfun	if anything, emacs is more of a spiritual successor
02:04	dysfun	btw, if you want to know how good your software is, try and teach someone who is a non-programmer how to use it and then watch how they use it
02:04	dysfun	(for end user facing things)
02:05	tolstoy	I think that's a little bit what Brett Victor is after. Not better programming tools for programmers, but more appropriate idioms for getting work done that are, kinda, programming in the way Excel sorta is.
02:06	dysfun	hrm, i hadn't come across him, but i'm now reading his website. thanks :)
02:06	tolstoy	I remember trying to help someone get started with Java (back in the Ant days) and after hearing myself speak, I realized it was bat-sh*t insane. ;)
02:07	dysfun	i think it was feynman who said "if you can't explain it to a child, you don't understand it"
02:07	tolstoy	He's the guy that inspired some of the early LightTable work, before it went all traditional.
02:07	dysfun	before it became a bit disappointing? yes.
02:08	tolstoy	I could explain it, I just realized that Java had so many, "Download this, okay, create a dir like that, okay, type this and this and this, then whatever.xml and, a couple of hours from now, you should be able to print hello."
02:08	bmuk	what is the benefit of LightTable over emacs? Is it just that it sets everything up for you?
02:08	rhg135	Speaking of which, what happened to the author?
02:08	dysfun	bmuk: emacs is more powerful by far. lighttable is 'easy'. some people prefer it.
02:08	tolstoy	Of LightTable? Chris Granger (ibdknox) has a startup working on a new way for "regular people" to interact with data. Called Eve, or something like that.
02:09	dysfun	eve is disappointing too
02:09	rhg135	Yeah, but that was years ago
02:09	dysfun	i appreciate they've made a pragmatic decision that will allow them to get to market quicker, but they shouldn't have
02:09	rhg135	I'd not be surprised if he rage quit
02:10	dysfun	his blog has been stagnant since Eve 0
02:11	rhg135	Indeed
02:11	bmuk	I've often thought of emacs as the best interactive environment for text, but why do you think we still use text for programs? Is editing a string of characters really the most intuitive way to tell the computer what you want it to do?
02:11	tolstoy	He tweets about it ever now and then.
02:11	dysfun	bmuk: no, but every time someone has tried graphical programming (i'm trying too!) it's come out shit
02:12	tolstoy	I bet non-text programming is really something that should be tuned to domains, rather than general purpose. Like that Brett Victor dynamic design language for circuits.
02:13	dysfun	yes, that's the area i'm heading in at the minute
02:13	bmuk	I like the lego/puzzle approach that scratch has, but I've never actually used it
02:13	dysfun	i don't know how it's going to work for clojure, but for example in C++ you might have a "create new" > "Observer Pattern"
02:13	dysfun	yeah, the scratch blocks are a nice refinement. i've stolen them of course
02:14	dysfun	but i also decided mutable variables had to go
02:14	bmuk	tolstoy that sounds more feasible, I just think of all the times people are going to have to create interactive environments for each domain and I cringe. Repeating work bothers me
02:14	bmuk	I think that's what drew me to macros, sometimes I can't really abstract this away with a function, I need something more powerful
02:15	dysfun	macros are where graphical programming really falls apart for me
02:15	rhg135	You could have a core to build them with
02:15	rhg135	Sharing code ftw
02:15	tolstoy	It seems much more difficult to "draw" a while loop, but using something to drag/drop to create music, better.
02:15	bmuk	a DSL for making interactive graphical DSLs
02:16	rhg135	Exactly
02:16	rhg135	That's not confusing at all
02:16	bmuk	clojure seems like you could have a map -> filter -> reduce pattern that is graphically represented somehow
02:16	dysfun	one of the things that's pissed me off doing this actually has been that GUI libraries fucking suck.
02:17	dysfun	it's very difficult to experiment when the libraries are so tedious to use
02:17	bmuk	dysfun: why use GTK/QT at all, use HTML+CSS
02:17	dysfun	well, that's what lighttable did
02:17	dysfun	but i don't want to be tied to a browser
02:18	tolstoy	OSX has some sort of graphical thing you can use to hook up elements here to there ... quartz composer? Is that it?
02:18	dysfun	otherwise i wouldn't be doing an llvm backend for clojure
02:18	bmuk	what do you mean "tied to a browser"?
02:18	tolstoy	Kind of a neat visual language: (not that I understand it).
02:18	dysfun	tolstoy: are you thinking of automator?
02:18	dysfun	quartz composer is for building special effects
02:19	tolstoy	dysfun That too, but I was thinking the graphical thing.
02:19	tolstoy	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_Composer#/media/File:QuartzComposerSnowLeopard.png
02:19	tolstoy	Just an example of a specialized visual language, not general purpose, of course.
02:20	dysfun	oh there are many langs like that
02:20	dysfun	if you look on the code golf stack exchange, you'll see a few crop up on random questions
02:20	bmuk	dysfun: wouldn't something like react-native divorce you from the browser?
02:21	dysfun	bmuk: i really haven't played with it
02:21	bmuk	unrelated, where is mapcar? I'm getting unable to resolve symbol
02:21	dysfun	for $startup, i'm encapsulating the bulk of the logic into a library and building a GUI for each supported platform separately
02:22	dysfun	there isn't a mapcar in the standard library that i'm aware of
02:23	bmuk	I'm an idiot. I meant mapcat, but I typed mapcar XD
02:23	dysfun	if you're using it to 'stripe' multiple lists, map supports that natively
02:23	dysfun	oh heh
02:25	dysfun	you may also like http://conj.io/
02:25	bmuk	that's awesome, thank you
02:25	bmuk	I've been using https://clojuredocs.org
02:26	dysfun	i tend to use ctrl-f rather than grimoire search though
02:26	dysfun	the clojure cheatsheet is my fallback if arrdem breaks grimoire
02:27	bmuk	I'm pretty sure I have grimoire in my editor already. Not sure how to use it though
02:28	bmuk	https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/tree/master/layers/%2Blang/clojure
02:28	bmuk	cider grimoire. I had no idea what it did until now
02:28	dysfun	cool :)
02:29	dysfun	i keep putting off changes to my emacs config because it sucks programming an inferior lisp
02:29	bmuk	I used to make my own config by hand, but spacemacs does everything I want it to do. My config now consists only of enabling modes
02:30	ben_vulpes	imagine my surprise when i discovered that "superior lisp interaction mode" did not mean "a mode for interacting with a superior lisp"
02:30	bmuk	But I'm the weird variety that loves modal editing
02:31	ben_vulpes	bmuk: were evil-mode a little better, and were i to spend more time in non-lisps...
02:31	dysfun	don't most vim-using lisp programmers spend 50% of their time bouncing on the % key?
02:32	bmuk	maybe it's because I don't use enough of vim's features, but evil-mode is more than sufficient for me. I'm comparing it to Visual Studio's vim plugin though
02:32	bmuk	dysfun: you can still use emacs chords in normal mode
02:32	dysfun	vim plugin is a comparatively easy proposition. an emacs plugin is basically impossible
02:33	bmuk	plus there is a lisp-mode where you can structurally edit
02:33	dysfun	paredit?
02:33	clojurebot	paredit is not for everyone, but what you need to understand ís how to become the kind of person that paredit ís for.
02:34	dysfun	paredit would be for me, but i can't be bothered to learn it
02:34	bmuk	https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/blob/master/doc/DOCUMENTATION.org#editing-lisp-code
02:35	dysfun	tbh a lot of internal emacs stuff needs overhauling a lot
02:35	tolstoy	I enabled paredit, then eventually learned on of the commands, and, centuries later, a second command. Still seems worth it just for the paren matching.
02:35	bmuk	true. Isn't someone writing it in clojure?
02:35	dysfun	DEUCE? Yeah, but he wasn't getting anywhere last i checked
02:35	ben_vulpes	bmuk: lol
02:36	bmuk	there's also yi
02:36	dysfun	problem he figured out is "if you can't run elisp, it isn't emacs". so he's spent a lot of effort there
02:36	tolstoy	Aren't the making progress converting the underlying interpreter to Guile Scheme?
02:36	prohobo	atom is the new emacs
02:36	prohobo	except slow
02:36	prohobo	and buggy
02:36	tolstoy	shudder
02:36	dysfun	and browser-bound
02:37	prohobo	but it IS genuinely nicer
02:37	dysfun	(yes, it's still a browser if your app is a single-purpose browser)
02:37	prohobo	the UI is worth it imo
02:37	bmuk	even if you also provide a terminal interaction mode?
02:37	prohobo	just, dear god, dont do any remote work
02:37	bmuk	(not saying atom does this)
02:37	ben_vulpes	prohobo: single threaded?
02:38	dysfun	bmuk: you know, terminals are better at that
02:38	prohobo	ben_vulpes: i think so, but it has these git extensions that require practically a full FS refresh on filesave
02:38	bmuk	no, I mean you can use the GUI mode (single purpose browser), or the cli app
02:38	prohobo	so its easy to lock up your entire editor when saving something remotely
02:38	bmuk	which both connect to a server running locally
02:39	bmuk	think emacsclient
02:39	dysfun	it's definitely about time that emacs became concurrent
02:39	dysfun	and got PCRE support
02:39	prohobo	i could never get minimap to work properly on emacs -_-
02:39	dysfun	even still, all those libraries wouldn't get ported
02:40	ben_vulpes	it's pretty easy to lock emacs up too, fwiw
02:40	prohobo	hehehe, u said "even still"
02:40	prohobo	like an italian mobster
02:40	dysfun	it's honestly a case of someone is going to have to quietly build a better thing and port the libraries themselves and then release it upon the world
02:40	dysfun	but that's an impossible ask
02:40	dysfun	so we'll just keep using broken emacs
02:40	bmuk	why quietly?
02:40	prohobo	use broken atom, maybe it will outpace emacs
02:41	dysfun	because it's a problem that needs hammock time
02:41	dysfun	and you can't have hammock time once it's unleashed upon the world
02:41	dysfun	well, if it is actually better, anyway
02:41	bmuk	I'm suggesting develop it OSS so you have help
02:42	VapeNaysh	so i wrote a function that uses re-seq to convert matches into a new datastructure and do things to them
02:42	VapeNaysh	my test is comparing the result of this to another known value
02:42	bmuk	hammock time -> document strategy -> github -> profit?
02:42	VapeNaysh	and it appears to be failing because the first value is a lazy sequence still
02:42	VapeNaysh	which is confusing
02:42	dysfun	bmuk: basically the plan, yes
02:43	dysfun	for everything i do
02:43	VapeNaysh	the returned value looks good except its apparently wrapped in a lazy seq
02:43	dysfun	well, i add "make it usable" to that list before github usually
02:43	dysfun	VapeNaysh: code?
02:44	VapeNaysh	one sec
02:44	VapeNaysh	https://gist.github.com/hderms/0429d709f6e511fc0ce8435088c284dd
02:44	VapeNaysh	this is some of it
02:44	dysfun	bmuk: i like to demonstrate the feasibility of something with some useful code before i publish
02:45	dysfun	VapeNaysh: you're comparing a set to a seq
02:45	bmuk	makes sense. Before I had a job I just used github like my private git server that just happened to be public
02:45	VapeNaysh	yeah i'd like to return a set instead of the seq
02:45	VapeNaysh	expected: (= (str->pieces "Q2") #{[2 100] [2 101] [3 100] [3 101]}) actual: (not (= (#{[2 100] [2 101] [3 100] [3 101]}) #{[2 100] [2 101] [3 100] [3 101]}))
02:45	dysfun	(into #{} ...)
02:46	VapeNaysh	ahh ok
02:46	VapeNaysh	great
02:46	VapeNaysh	clojure is very elegant just challenging to learn idioms
02:46	bmuk	so file-seq doesn't appear to be traversing child directories?
02:47	bmuk	wait maybe I didn't reload my repl
02:48	VapeNaysh	so (into #{} (str->pieces ...)
02:48	VapeNaysh	right?
02:48	clojurebot	right is not wrong
02:48	dysfun	bmuk: try this http://raynes.github.io/fs/me.raynes.fs.html#var-iterate-dir
02:48	dysfun	VapeNaysh: yes
02:48	VapeNaysh	it doesnt appear to be working
02:48	VapeNaysh	its wrapping it with another set now
02:49	VapeNaysh	actual: (not (= #{#{[2 100] [2 101] [3 100] [3 101]}} #{[2 100] [2 101] [3 100] [3 101]}))
02:49	bmuk	dysfun: I was using an old name for my function that was still left around in my repl
02:49	bmuk	I'm pretty sure this works
02:49	dysfun	repaste the code. you've probably gotten the arrow positioning wrong
02:49	VapeNaysh	HERE WE GO
02:49	VapeNaysh	oops
02:49	VapeNaysh	i think i needed to apply
02:50	dysfun	i commented a suggestion on your post
02:51	dysfun	oh wow. i forgot the markdown syntax
02:52	VapeNaysh	dysfun: replacing (into #{}) in your example with (apply set)
02:52	VapeNaysh	worked
02:52	dysfun	cool
02:52	VapeNaysh	thanks though
02:53	VapeNaysh	is that code relatively idiomatic though or does it look bad
02:53	VapeNaysh	like threading macro, etc...
02:53	VapeNaysh	using maps and anonymous functions
02:53	dysfun	well, i'd write it differently, but i'd need to see make-piece's code to give good advice
02:54	dysfun	the art of good example code is giving something runnable so we can play with it in a repl
02:54	VapeNaysh	what kind of changes woud you make
02:54	dysfun	well for a start i'd abstract out that function in the middle
02:55	bmuk	how does this look so far: https://gist.github.com/bmuk/5899d95b6d510441f35993ab771ae6e2
02:56	dysfun	bmuk: well i'd rip out half of that code and use the 'fs' library i linked you to earlier, otherwise good
02:57	dysfun	exists? and directory? are already written for you and expand is subsumed by another function
02:58	bmuk	the library you linked to earlier?
02:58	dysfun	> bmuk: try this http://raynes.github.io/fs/me.raynes.fs.html#var-iterate-dir
02:58	bmuk	exists? and directory? are already in the standard library?
02:58	bmuk	http://clojure-doc.org/articles/cookbooks/files_and_directories.html
02:58	dysfun	no, they're in this library 'fs'
02:59	bmuk	ahh ok
02:59	ben_vulpes	https://github.com/Raynes/fs
02:59	ben_vulpes	?
02:59	dysfun	yes
02:59	ben_vulpes	https://github.com/Raynes/fs/blob/master/src/me/raynes/fs.clj#L148 << classy
03:00	ben_vulpes	welp tooling day is complete
03:00	ben_vulpes	i have independent jvms for cljs and clj
03:01	ben_vulpes	there is even a figwheel for normals
03:01	ben_vulpes	MY WORK HERE IS DONE
03:01	ben_vulpes	... for tonight.
03:03	bmuk	noob question, I can just :require [me.raynes.fs :as fs] after putting it in my project.clj? (I guess my real question is do you always remove the /)
03:03	dysfun	in this case, yes
03:03	ben_vulpes	[me.raynes/fs "1.4.6"]
03:03	ben_vulpes	wat
03:04	dysfun	however, there is not necessarily a mapping between the artifact name and the namespace
03:04	dysfun	ben_vulpes: group-id/artifact-id
03:04	ben_vulpes	https://github.com/Raynes/fs/blob/master/README.markdown#the-most-recent-release
03:04	bmuk	where is the namespace documented? Usually the README has had some example that I get it from but there was none in this case
03:04	ben_vulpes	bmuk: just start reading through fs.clj
03:05	dysfun	either the README or the source files
03:05	ben_vulpes	or http://raynes.github.io/fs/
03:05	dysfun	the README links to the API docs. i linked you earlier too
03:05	dysfun	the api docs tell you what ns something is in
03:06	ben_vulpes	semi relatedly, is it not possible to get a line link to a markdown file in github?
03:06	dysfun	i've always assumed it wasn't, but if you find out it is, let me know :)
03:06	ben_vulpes	a brief investigation indicates that it is not
03:07	ben_vulpes	thanks obama
03:07	bmuk	ah okay. I know there has to be a way to automatically reload and require everything in cider on save, I'm getting tired of typing (require 'doc-generator.core :reload)
03:07	dysfun	hooks?
03:08	ben_vulpes	bmuk: if you're using cider, why not C-c C-k to load the file
03:08	bmuk	I'm only familiar with mode-hooks but I guess there's probably a save hook as well
03:08	dysfun	bmuk: what is this json you're generating docs from btw? i'm curious (since i've got a docgen tool on the go)
03:11	bmuk	I'm experimenting with the idea of rewriting our web app in cljs (since it's already a separate project from the core web service anyway), but our api is undocumented. So I added a finally block in the ExecuteOperation method (called for every api operation) that converts the request and response objects to json and logs them to a file
03:11	bmuk	with some other meta data that will probably evolve as this doc-generator does
03:12	bmuk	I wanted to just start in on the cljs but proxying IIS from a VM to my macbook and sending incorrect json over and over again just to hit some breakpoints to see what was even going on was a nightmare lol
03:13	bmuk	it wouldn't have been that big of a deal if our request and response objects were simple and flat, but they're pretty complicated
04:08	ridcully	dysfun: paredit and that sexp-somethingsomething plugin help to don't have to fall back to crude %
04:14	dysfun	:)
05:10	qsys	must be easy: how to go from [2 3 5 7] to [2 5 10 17] (each time: get next and add it to the result so far)
05:11	luma	,(reductions + [2 3 5 7])
05:11	clojurebot	(2 5 10 17)
05:12	qsys	lol, easy it is :p
08:56	russellw	What is the recommended way to write parsers in clojure?
08:59	kwladyka	russellw do not write, use something what was done :)
09:01	russellw	kwladyka, well, if existing ones don't do what I need :)
09:02	luma	https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse
09:03	Glenjamin	what is it you want to parse?
09:04	russellw	Glenjamin, dimacs, tptp, smt-lib
09:05	Glenjamin	i expect using the existing java parsers as a base will be the best bet there
09:07	russellw	From a quick skim thus far, the dimacs parsers seem to be unmaintained, dimacs and smt-lib are syntactically simple enough that it's not worth incurring a tricky dependency for, the tptp parser doesn't seem to be currently maintained either and is missing some features and is written with a Java parser library, so a one-shot effort of just writing a TPTP parser in clojure seems likely to pay
09:07	russellw	off better than dealing with that on an ongoing basis
09:08	Glenjamin	what does it mean to maintain a parser for something like that?
09:08	Glenjamin	do the formats change?
09:08	russellw	tptp certainly does
09:09	Glenjamin	that seems a bit silly
09:09	russellw	Not disagreeing about that, but it's not up to me
09:09	Glenjamin	mm
09:09	Glenjamin	i'd have assumed enough people were interacting with such things via java that you'd at least to be able to get some classes representing the data :(
09:10	russellw	You can for some input files but not for ones that use language features the parser doesn't support
09:12	russellw	luma, thanks, that looks interesting. If I understand correctly, for a nontrivial language, you write the grammar in a text file - presumably lein can package a text file into an uberjar? instaparse wants to read the text file at runtime, but hopefully that only takes a few milliseconds, no significant performance impact?
09:12	luma	yep
09:13	russellw	Cool, I'll try it out, then
09:13	luma	if you already have your language in EBNF, you should be able to plug it directly into instaparse
09:23	irctc	How to do the equivalent of int i = (int)l where l is a long in Clojure?
09:24	Glenjamin	,(int 100)
09:24	clojurebot	100
09:24	Glenjamin	(doc int)
09:24	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to int"
09:25	irctc	,(int Long/MAX_VALUE)
09:25	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Value out of range for int: 9223372036854775807"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Value out of range for int: 9223372036854775807"\n :at [clojure.lang.RT intCast "RT.java" 1205]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT intCast "RT.java" 1205]\n [sandbox$eval71 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval71 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.la...
09:25	irctc	So, it's not the same
09:26	Glenjamin	what does int cast do in java?
09:26	Glenjamin	(doc unchecked-int) you probably want this then?
09:26	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to int. Subject to rounding or truncation."
09:26	Lewix	,(int64 100)
09:26	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: int64 in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: int64 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6688]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: int64 in this...
09:27	Lewix	,(long 100)
09:27	clojurebot	100
09:27	Lewix	,(long Long/MAX_VALUE)
09:27	clojurebot	9223372036854775807
09:27	Lewix	irctc: hew you go
09:27	irctc	I want the bottom 32 bits
09:30	irctc	yes, unchecked may be working
09:31	Glenjamin	looks like it: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L1451
09:31	irctc	yep -- thanks!
09:32	Lewix	,(bit-shift-left LONG/MAX_VALUE 15)
09:32	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No such namespace: LONG"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: LONG, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6688]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "No such namespace: LONG"\n :at [clojure.lang.Util runtimeException "Util.java" 221]}]...
09:33	Lewix	,(bit-shift-left Long/MAX_VALUE 15)
09:33	clojurebot	-32768
09:33	Lewix	,(bit-shift-left Long/MAX_VALUE 14)
09:33	clojurebot	-16384
09:33	Lewix	,(bit-shift-right Long/MAX_VALUE 14)
09:33	clojurebot	562949953421311
10:22	melipone	Hiya! I have an incanter question
10:25	melipone	I am getting an error with incanter 1.9 on the principal-components with the Iris dataset as in the example given in the documentation
11:16	clgv	hello, how exactly do you tell leiningen to work with metadependencies where maven central contains only a pom file with information about the other needed artifacts?
11:18	TimMc	You just include the coordinates of that metadependency, yeah?
11:20	clgv	TimMc: well, it did not fetch anything but complained "Could not find artifact org.uma.jmetal:jmetal:jar:5.0 in central"
11:21	clgv	TimMc: providing [org.uma.jmetal/jmetal "5.0" :extension "pom"] just makes Leiningen happy enough to not complain, but none of the artifacts is fetched
11:22	TimMc	Interesting.
11:30	TimMc	Can reproduce with 2.6.1
11:51	TimMc	clgv: Looks like half of this is discussed at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1451
11:51	clgv	TimMc: ah thank you
11:52	TimMc	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1866 is linked from that, might be the same issue or different
11:52	TimMc	I think different.
11:53	clgv	well, manual deps then...
11:53	clgv	luckily there are only 4 of them ;)
12:00	Glenjamin	why would they do that?
12:00	Glenjamin	(have a pom-only thing)
12:31	bsima	Does anyone know of any custom core.async buffer types? I'm thinking about creating a buffer that interfaces with kafka logs, thus creating an immutable channel
12:31	bsima	this is the only one I've found so far https://github.com/steveyen/ago/blob/master/src/ago/core.cljs#L102-L147
12:36	dysfun	umm, why would it be a buffer?
12:36	dysfun	the purpose of a buffer is to... buffer
12:37	dysfun	if you wanted to treat kafka as a queue, you would instead connect a kafka client to a channel
12:37	dysfun	so that each time you became aware there was something for the taking, it placed it onto the channel
12:39	dysfun	and for publishing, you would publish to a channel and the kafka client would transmit it
13:00	bsima	dysfun: If I can mimic the core.async api, then I can reuse a lot of code
13:01	bsima	in development I use channels to pass maps between components, but in prod I want this data to be stored in kafka
13:02	bsima	yeah its kinda blurring the lines between "queue" and "channel" and "log", but I don't think thats a problem
13:09	tolstoy	Maybe make a super set abstraction with core.async and kafka implementations?
13:19	sdegutis	Good evening.
13:20	sdegutis	How is it?
13:23	dysfun	bsima: it's not an idiomatic way of modelling it
13:23	dysfun	the idea of channels is to disconnect the sender from the receiver. that you happen to put another process is a non-event. your application code remains otherwise the same
13:31	sdegutis	What is Up?
13:31	dysfun	the sky?
13:31	dysfun	the opposite of down?
13:32	Glenjamin	bsima: dysfun one of the best explanations of the difference I've heard was that channels cannot fail
13:32	Glenjamin	but as soon as you put a network in there, you have problems you now need to deal with
13:32	russellw	For a function that takes a filename as input, parses the contents of the file and returns a syntax tree, what's the typical/idiomatic name for the function? load-foo, parse-foo, read-foo, something else?
13:33	dysfun	Glenjamin: i'm not going to pretend the picture is perfect, but better to deal with that in one place
13:33	Glenjamin	(foo/parse) perhaps?
13:33	sdegutis	dysfun: no its a movie
13:33	Glenjamin	dysfun: i guess that depends on whether you plan to make every component optionally in another process
13:33	sdegutis	One which I will not say whether it is good or bad, because I refuse to pass judgement on such a crappy movie.
13:34	russellw	Glenjamin, ah, so use the fully qualified name and let the module name be the root? That makes sense, thanks
13:34	dysfun	Glenjamin: we're not erlang
13:34	dysfun	sdegutis: how many litres of beer does it take to make it watchable?
13:35	sdegutis	dysfun: nobody counts in litres anymore, its the 90s man
13:35	dysfun	litres are a much better unit than pints. they're a lot bigger for a start
13:35	sdegutis	get with the times dude
13:35	sdegutis	nobody counts in pints anymore, what is this medieval yourup?
13:35	dysfun	are you drunk again?
13:35	sdegutis	Good evening. How are you all doing this fine day?
13:36	sdegutis	dysfun: i dignify to refuse that with an answer
13:36	dysfun	hard day at work, was it?
13:37	sdegutis	Our CEO and I just had a nice long meeting.
13:38	sdegutis	Afterwards I sent an email suggesting we may want to make use of more agile ways of communication, to increase productivity in development and other areas of our respective tasks.
13:39	sdegutis	Agile is big here, so he agreed and we're going to move forward with this, and benefit from it all around.
13:39	sdegutis	So yeah, it's been a productive day.
13:39	sdegutis	I'm about to start programming in a minute.
14:10	uto	How I merge two maps while preserving the order? Basically (merge {:a 1 :c 2} {:d 3 :b 4}) returns {:a 1 :b 4 :c 2 :d 3} but I want {:a 1 :c 2 :d 3 :b 4}
14:10	opqdonut	maps don't have order
14:11	opqdonut	though there is sorted-map
14:11	opqdonut	if you care about order you should probably use a sequence of pairs
14:12	rhg135	ordered-map too
14:13	opqdonut	rhg135: where is that?
14:14	rhg135	I don't remember exactly
14:16	tolstoy	https://github.com/amalloy/ordered
14:16	opqdonut	right
14:19	tolstoy	Good code there to help figure out what you have to do to implement something that satisfies map.
14:20	russellw	How do you get instaparse to ignore whitespace between tokens?
14:22	sdegutis	uto: or you can turn a map into a sequence of map-entries
14:22	sdegutis	,(map-entry? (first {:a 1}))
14:22	clojurebot	true
14:22	sdegutis	,(map type {:a 1})
14:22	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry)
14:23	sdegutis	,(map type {:a 1, :b 2})
14:23	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry)
14:23	sdegutis	uto: you'd probably turn them into a coll of map-entries by sorting it
14:23	sdegutis	,(->> {:a 3 :b 2 :c 1} (sort-by val) (map type))
14:23	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry clojure.lang.MapEntry)
14:24	sdegutis	,(->> {:a 3 :b 2 :c 1} (sort-by val) (map (juxt identity type)))
14:24	clojurebot	([[:c 1] clojure.lang.MapEntry] [[:b 2] clojure.lang.MapEntry] [[:a 3] clojure.lang.MapEntry])
14:24	sdegutis	There there.
14:32	sdegutis	(doc val)
14:32	clojurebot	"([e]); Returns the value in the map entry."
14:32	sdegutis	(doc key)
14:32	clojurebot	"([e]); Returns the key of the map entry."
14:38	lokien_	Heyy guys, is there any list of functions/macros everyone should know? Like "top 100 functions" or something?
14:39	russellw	lokien, http://clojure.org/api/cheatsheet
14:41	lokien_	russellw: that's like "every function"
14:41	lokien_	but probably I'm wrong
14:41	russellw	I don't think it's quite every function, though it is impressively comprehensive for such a compact document
14:43	lokien_	I'd like something different, but thanks, still
15:06	kwladyka	I wrote article when use vars, atoms, agents, refs and async. I share it with you http://clojure.wladyka.eu/posts-output/2016-04-06-concurrency.html Please give me feedback if all is clear. Maybe i can improve something? It is very complex topic and i want stay with short text. What do you think about flowchart? Do you agree with it? Any idea how can i do it better?
15:09	kwladyka	I feel i can do it better but i need some feedback :)
15:14	Glenjamin	kwladyka: i'd say the var example, while it works, isn't very representative
15:15	kwladyka	Glenjamin do you prefer example with binding or what kind of example?
15:15	Glenjamin	generally vars are only used at the top level, and are there to make late binding work when evalling stuff at a repl
15:15	Glenjamin	in practice, they don't really change at runtime i'd expect
15:17	kwladyka	generally this article don't explain all possibilities and power of them. As i mentioned on the beginning. It is more to which one should i choose for me, then about how to use it in most powerfull way. I guess then i can write separate topic for each of them. But from other side maybe i should give more examples...
15:18	Glenjamin	the examples you have are fine, i just think the vars example is showing something that no-one really does
15:20	kwladyka	yes, but it showing technical aspect how it is working. Can you propose better example?
15:20	Glenjamin	i wouldn't categorise a var as a concurrency construct at all actually
15:21	Glenjamin	your flow chart is correct that if the data ever changes, you shouldn't use a var
15:21	kwladyka	but what i saw people ask what to use and also include varts to the question
15:22	Glenjamin	my usual advice is: use an atom until it doesn't work
15:22	amalloy	the ref example is bad, because (println "read, foo:" @foo "bar:" @bar) isn't enclosed in a dosync
15:22	kwladyka	haha ;)
15:22	amalloy	so you might read inconsistent values
15:23	kwladyka	amalloy but alter is in dosync. How can i get inconsistent values then?
15:23	amalloy	you can read foo, then a commit happens, then you read bar
15:23	kwladyka	it is exactly to show that alter will commit when dosync end
15:24	amalloy	try throwing a (Thread/sleep 5000) in between those two derefs
15:24	kwladyka	amalloy it is exactly about that it can't happen
15:24	kwladyka	it is why to use refs
15:24	amalloy	then it is exactly wrong
15:24	kwladyka	did you read text?
15:25	kwladyka	what is wrong there
15:25	kwladyka	?
15:25	amalloy	did you try my suggestion?
15:25	kwladyka	hang a sec
15:27	kwladyka	amalloy between which one? In println?
15:27	amalloy	yes
15:27	amalloy	in the "read", not "updated", thread. the one that's not in dosync
15:28	amalloy	dosync/alter guarantee that if you take a snapshot of the world at any time, all refs will be in a coordinated state. but you don't do that: you take two isolated snapshots, with your two derefs
15:28	amalloy	how can the runtime possibly know you intend those two to be coordinated
15:29	kwladyka	oh because println don't read them in the same time, it is very small chance for that, but it is. Thanks for suggestion.
15:29	kwladyka	of course not in this example, because alter run longer, but generally i can do better example
15:30	kwladyka	thx
16:25	kwladyka	I just did new version http://clojure.wladyka.eu with some improvements
16:31	kwladyka	What do you think now about flowchart?
16:35	lokien_	kwladyka: as a still learning person, thank you for that
16:36	kwladyka	lokien_ nice to hear that :)
16:38	TimMc	kwladyka: You might talk about how it is unsafe to modify vars from more than one thread at once, and modifying them at all is generally not something to rely on.
16:38	lokien_	kwladyka: can you make more posts like this in the future? I feel like they're needed in the community, as we don't have anything like that yet
16:39	kwladyka	TimMc it is good idea, but i am not sure it will be still in the topic
16:39	kwladyka	lokien_ i am trying but it consumes so much energy and time :)
16:40	lokien_	kwladyka: keep going, I believe in you :)
16:40	kwladyka	lokien_ i can recommend also read article how to improve algorithm speed, that was my mile stone in clojure.
16:40	TimMc	kwladyka: As it is, it looks like you are putting vars on the same level with constructs that are used as data structures, and that might mislead someone into trying to use set! to bash on vars
16:40	lokien_	kwladyka: 4 boring classes tomorrow, I'm sure I'll read that :D
16:41	TimMc	Oh good, you do cover that in the flowchart.
16:41	kwladyka	TimMc is good or bad? :)
16:42	kwladyka	TimMc can you propose better example for vars?
16:42	TimMc	That's good, I think it would be better to include a very short statement in the vars section about how vars are not generally intended for modification.
16:43	TimMc	In the flowchart, I don't think the non-idempotent functions branch should lead to refs.
16:43	TimMc	Same for the long-running functions branch. Refs can have contention, just like atoms.
16:43	TimMc	(Well, differently than atoms, actually.)
16:46	kwladyka	maybe i should add additional condition but not sure what should be the question
16:47	kwladyka	TimMc what i now refs retry when read the same ref more then one time if it was alter on that ref during that. Any other cases?
16:48	kwladyka	but generally read the same ref in dosync more then once is not something common
16:48	kwladyka	i don't know other cases when ref retry
16:51	TimMc	kwladyka: Refs are modified optimistically. If two threads try to modify the same ref during concurrent transacations, one backs out and retries.
16:52	TimMc	If there were side-effecting calls during the transaction, you might get in trouble.
16:52	TimMc	You might also want to draw a distinction between idempotency and side-effects.
16:53	sdegutis	Hey amalloy.
16:55	kwladyka	TimMc not if you call side-effect after alter :P But yes you have right. I should do additional question in flowchart, but not sure how to do it clear.
16:57	WorldsEndless	What library is recommended for making API requests (get, post, the others)?
16:57	TimMc	HTTP calls?
16:57	WorldsEndless	Yeah
16:57	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: I use clj.http-lite or whatever it's called
16:57	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: it's got minimal dependencies and does all the things i need
16:58	kwladyka	WorldsEndless Clojure or ClojureScript?
16:58	TimMc	https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http is pretty nice
16:58	WorldsEndless	kwladyka: Just Clojure
16:59	sdegutis	TimMc: yeah thats the one that links to the one i use
16:59	WorldsEndless	TimMc: Looks like the one that http-lite thinks is too heavy
16:59	kwladyka	WorldsEndless so like TimMc wrote
16:59	sdegutis	https://github.com/hiredman/clj-http-lite
16:59	WorldsEndless	Any major reasons to go with http instead of http-lite?
16:59	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: look at "Differences from clj-http" on my link
16:59	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: if you need any of those then go with http-fat
17:00	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: i did not need any of those things so i went with http-light
17:00	WorldsEndless	Got it. I don't think I need any of those things, either, unless I end up needing the JSON decoding
17:01	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: it doesnt do automatic json decoding, but you can still decode your own json from the :body key
17:01	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: i use clojure.data.json to decode the :body key into a json thing along with http-skinny
17:01	kwladyka	WorldsEndless light has last update a year ago
17:01	sdegutis	kwladyka: when a thing is done, its done.
17:01	WorldsEndless	lol
17:01	sdegutis	if it aint broke, dont fix it
17:02	WorldsEndless	sdegutis: Said like an emacs user?
17:02	kwladyka	generally i most of cases it means something
17:02	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: i use 'choose'
17:02	kwladyka	but in that one of course it can be ok
17:02	sdegutis	https://github.com/sdegutis/choose/commits/master
17:02	sdegutis	last real-world commit was march 2015
17:02	sdegutis	i mean real-stuff commit
17:02	sdegutis	and hey it still works 13 months later
17:03	kwladyka	last time of commit is my personal decisive factor. Software is never done :)
17:04	sdegutis	kwladyka: i used to think that way too.
17:04	sdegutis	kwladyka: sometimes inactive software is actually just done though.
17:05	kwladyka	in the readme i can read "No support for insecure HTTPS connection (yet" and last commit is a year ago
17:05	kwladyka	It is enough for me to choose http-clj
17:05	sdegutis	like, 'choose' does one job but does it well. the only time ill ever need to update it is if Apple changes some API and deprecates any of the ones this uses on like OS X 10.15 or whatever
17:05	sdegutis	kwladyka: then choose http-big
17:06	kwladyka	but still it is my personal decisive factor form my experience. Find you own way :)
17:07	WorldsEndless	Yeah, the "supported" factor is a big one, given that this app should have longevity and maintainability
17:09	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: thats a hard thing to predict
17:10	sdegutis	WorldsEndless: for example predicting dommy vs domina was hard
17:11	sdegutis	and if you looked at their commits, they're both relatively inactive about the same amount
17:12	kwladyka	TimMc I am thinking about flowchart and what you said... but when somebody use not idempotent functions and need synchronise access there is nothing better then refs. Isn't it?
17:54	sdegutis	TIFU by using some? on a value that had a boolean value returned.
17:55	sdegutis	I mean some? is great but I need to be more careful about these things.
18:00	parenjitsu	I'm curious, is there any consensus about the best libraries for spinning up a convention-over-configuration API server with Clojure?
18:01	amalloy	shell out to rails
18:01	parenjitsu	Pretty much just authentication, and then a thin serialization layer between http and the database
18:01	parenjitsu	amalloy: I hadn't considered that
18:02	amalloy	well it's not really good advice, so much as a claim that clojure doesn't really do "convention over configuration"
18:02	Glenjamin	(inc amalloy) that made me chuckle
18:02	amalloy	if that's an important feature for you, try rails or python
18:02	parenjitsu	Yeah, that's kind of a community thing
18:03	parenjitsu	cultural thing
18:03	parenjitsu	a clojure version of Rails API would be awesome
18:04	parenjitsu	maybe a good lost weekend project
18:04	Glenjamin	what would it do that rails api doesnt?
18:04	parenjitsu	I guess what I would get out of it would be:
18:04	Glenjamin	there is compojure-api and liberator, but afaik they don't attempt to deal with either auth or databases
18:05	parenjitsu	1. I could spin up a database, api-server and clojurescript frontend boilerplate in a couple minutes
18:06	parenjitsu	2. If the API layer needs to get smarter, I can write it in clojure, instead of ruby
18:08	patchwork	parenjitsu: You can pretty much do this with luminus, last I checked
18:08	parenjitsu	patchwork: I'll give it another look, thanks
18:08	parenjitsu	Hadn't seen compojure-api before either. The swagger integration looks great.
18:09	parenjitsu	(been away from clojure for a few years, trying to get back up to speed)
18:13	{blake}	Ever-changing-poorly-documented-fragile-convention Over Configuration!
18:14	{blake}	That said: I'm using straight JDBC for a web app and now I want to allow the user to page through results of a select. Opinions?
18:14	Glenjamin	LIMIT?
18:14	Glenjamin	:D
18:15	{blake}	Brilliant! A series of calls using "Limit 1" should produce just what I need!
18:15	Glenjamin	which bit did you want an opinion on?
18:15	{blake}	Heh. Paging isn't really a big issue here. The database isn't so big that I =shouldn't= be able to load it all into memory.
18:16	Glenjamin	i'd normally do a count, and then render page links with offset=x&pagesize=y
18:16	{blake}	It's a one-at-a-time viewer.
18:16	parenjitsu	{blake}: usually the client would pass in a page parameter and that would transformed into OFFSET and LIMIT to get the appropriate results
18:16	Glenjamin	oh, then y=1 and it's easier
18:16	parenjitsu	lol
18:16	{blake}	parenjitsu: Oh, so I really can do "Limit 1" if I combine with "Offset"! Ha!
18:17	{blake}	I can't believe Codd & Date would approve somehow.
18:18	Glenjamin	one thing you want to watch out for, is new items getting added during paging
18:20	{blake}	Or deleted, I presume. Shouldn't be an issue here.
18:20	{blake}	I'm mostly trying to figure out if it's worth it to switch from straight JDBC.
18:20	{blake}	To any of the multitude of SQL libs.
18:20	Glenjamin	unlikely, i don't think they'd help here
18:21	{blake}	I'm only suspicious because that's the answer I want.
18:22	Glenjamin	they mostly help you write SQL, although I do quite like yesql
18:24	{blake}	They all look okay, but I feel like they all would take time to get up to speed. Maybe not much, but I'm...behind. =P
18:37	srruby	loop/recur - Can I use let to define local variables ?
18:38	justin_smith	srruby: locals of what scope?
18:38	srruby	local to the "invocation of the loop".
18:38	justin_smith	srruby: within one iteration, definitely, if each iteration might modify the binding, it goes in the loop binding vector instead
18:38	srruby	Thanks.
18:44	sdegutis	right
18:48	tolstoy	If I want to have a little "storage" data structure that I persist to disk on change, would it make sense to have it implement the IAtom protocol or the IPersistentMap protocol rather than come up with something custom?
18:49	tolstoy	Seems like (assoc storage :key "value") implies immutable values, while (swap! storage assoc :key "value") at least suggests it's mutable.
18:49	amalloy	tolstoy: my first step would be to do none of that, but instead research the thousands of other attempts people have made to implement this exact feature
18:49	amalloy	there is probably one that meets your needs
18:50	justin_smith	tolstoy: I would attach a single thread to a queue, and put the modifications to that data structure on the queue. This could be expressed as a function that sends an action to an agent, a core.async go block looping on a chan, or a java concurrent queue with a thread polling it
18:50	Glenjamin	add-watch -> spit
18:51	tolstoy	amalloy: Good idea, I'll do that.
18:51	tolstoy	justin_smith: That's implementation, I'm talking about the interface.
18:52	Glenjamin	i do like how lots of clojure libs start their README with a picture of something
18:52	amalloy	you're going to have a hard time making something that's truly atomic in the face of multiple threads when you involve the disk
18:52	amalloy	so you'll have to decide what kind of contract you want to support
18:53	amalloy	then you can start looking at things like justin_smith's and Glenjamin's suggestions, which each do some rather surprising things in the case of concurrent modification
18:53	tolstoy	But is it just a bad idea to implement those existing Clojure interfaces, all that other taken of?
18:53	Glenjamin	i mostly suggested mine as a contrast to demonstrate the range of possibile answers
18:53	amalloy	implementing IAtom might be fine
18:54	ben_vulpes	does anyone know how to get the string that clojure.java.shell/sh tried to evaluate back out of it?
18:54	amalloy	implementing IPM would be evil imo
18:54	amalloy	"tried to evaluate"?
18:54	hiredman	implementing IAtom for something that only wraps a map seems really weird
18:54	hiredman	and you would need to do really weird stuff to implement (swap! … assoc k v)
18:54	hiredman	since assoc works on maps
18:55	ben_vulpes	"tried to evaluate" -> "passed to Runtime.exec()
18:55	ben_vulpes	"
18:55	Glenjamin	having assoc write to disk seems weirder though
18:55	asdf12z_	what is the symbol ^ mean?
18:55	hiredman	implementing IPM for something that isn't a value is terrible
18:55	asdf12z_	does*
18:55	ben_vulpes	amalloy: ^^
18:55	Glenjamin	asdf12z_: metadata
18:55	amalloy	ben_vulpes: that's the arguments you passed to shell yourself
18:55	amalloy	just look at them before you call shell
18:55	hiredman	asdf12z_: http://clojure.org/reference/reader#_metadata
18:56	amalloy	hiredman: does it only wrap a map? i was imagining since he's just going to use pr-str/spit/read-string/slurp, it would work for other non-map things
18:56	Glenjamin	ben_vulpes: you could trace it perhaps
18:57	hiredman	amalloy: could be, but if that is the plan, why the heck would tolstoy be talking about implementing IPM?
18:57	amalloy	over-focus on the current situation, where what he's thinking of persisting happens to be a map
18:59	hiredman	anyway, either way, do neither
18:59	hiredman	either using a map or a map in an atom
18:59	hiredman	don't implement anything
18:59	tolstoy	Heh. Well, that's the safe route.
19:00	ben_vulpes	Glenjamin: nah i just thought really hard for a half second
19:00	Glenjamin	usually a good bed
19:00	Glenjamin	bet
19:00	Glenjamin	eugh
19:02	hiredman	whatever you do, don't decide the transient interfaces make more sense, then implement them for a mutable store that obviously doesn't have transient semantics then submit it to lobsters so everyone can see how cool it is
19:02	Glenjamin	yeah, submit to r/clojure instead
19:03	ben_vulpes	AA
19:03	ben_vulpes	AAAAAA
19:03	ben_vulpes	AAAAA
19:03	ben_vulpes	hiredman: scary.
19:04	hiredman	and then sits on the lobsters frontpage for a while, which tells you how much of a grain of salt to apply to that sort of thing
19:05	amalloy	i hadn't heard of lobsters till now
19:06	hiredman	it is a thing
19:06	tolstoy	It's somehow ... better ... than hacker news, right?
19:06	amalloy	"better"
19:08	hiredman	slightly less startup stuff, which is nice, trends slightly more technical
19:09	tolstoy	I don't see a lot of "persist / cache a data structure to disk" things out there. Must not know the right keywords.
19:09	tolstoy	I'm not worried about implementing it myself. Just was curious about using some Clojure interfaces for a basic key/value thingy.
19:09	amalloy	https://github.com/alandipert/enduro is the first one i found
19:09	hiredman	tolstoy: atoms that use watchers to read and write to disk are a common thing people do
19:09	hiredman	I would recommend using apacha derby
19:10	tolstoy	Derby seems too heavyweight for two or four keys. (I'd use h2, probs.)
19:10	amalloy	it has plenty of problems in the face of concurrency
19:11	hiredman	lobsters big, I dunno, claim to fame?, is the user tree, to get an account you need an invite, and you can go look at the tree of invites https://lobste.rs/u
19:11	amalloy	tolstoy: if you want more reading, searching for `clojure persistent durable atom` works pretty well
19:11	tolstoy	Okay. I just found konserve.
19:11	amalloy	Lobsters 'R' U
19:11	Glenjamin	tolstoy: what is your wider context here?
19:11	tolstoy	App needs to generate a couple of UUIDs that need to persist across restarts. No persistence other than that.
19:12	Glenjamin	how much do you care about data loss?
19:12	tolstoy	BUT, I might like to make a component out of it. And maybe store some additional stuff when running in simulator mode.
19:13	tolstoy	Glenjamin Reasonably concerned, but if a sysadmin comes along and kills the file, well, shrug.
19:13	Glenjamin	i was thinking more along the lines of synchronous vs asychronous write
19:13	tolstoy	This is code running on a device shipped to customers. It does connect to the "cload". IMHO, a better solution is that it calls home with a hostname and gets back an ID. ;)
19:14	Glenjamin	do said uuids change?
19:14	tolstoy	Oh, well, I wrote my own fatom before and used core.async, I think. Maybe locking.
19:14	tolstoy	They shouldn't.
19:14	Glenjamin	you could just write text to disk on first start i suspect
19:14	tolstoy	Yes.
19:15	tolstoy	And never change it ever after. That works.
19:16	tolstoy	Anyway, it sounds like if someone had a good reason to write a file-backed "thing" such that adding or removing stuff from it was reflected on disk, implementing IAtom is sketchy, and IPersistentMap is misleading (at best).
19:18	tolstoy	Then again, enduro does that.
19:20	Glenjamin	why do I keep reading HN :(
19:44	rhg135	implementing IPM for a file write, that's wow
19:51	tolstoy	Lay it on me, buddy.
20:05	rhg135	I'm sure in certain languages that'd be great
20:06	rhg135	along with 1 = '1'
20:07	tolstoy	Well, I didn't think it was a good idea, so I won't defend the unmitigated temerity it took to publicly suggest it. ;)
20:14	rhg135	the sad part is I know there's people who think it's a good idea
20:38	VapeNaysh	hey so using loop/recur. If I want to like start the bound values with defaults would I wrap the (loop ...) form with some kind of (let..) binding
20:39	VapeNaysh	like first iteration it starts with let bound values but every further iteration will loop rebind them and shadow over the let binding?
20:42	VapeNaysh	is this the right way to do something like that
20:45	VapeNaysh	nvm im stupid
20:45	tolstoy	If you do (let [xs (foo x)] (loop [xs xs] .... (recur (rest xs)))) ... (foo x) is only called once. ;) Okay. ;)
20:47	VapeNaysh	yeah i saw that loop has bindings
21:45	asdf12z_	uh when i run lein repl, it's not installing my dependencies? lein deps :tree looks ok
21:46	asdf12z_	oh nevermind
21:57	bendlas	do ^:unsynchronized-mutable deftype fields still work?
21:59	sdegutis	Good morning.
22:02	sdegutis	justin_smith: I have a race condition, help.
22:42	asdf12z_	so if i wanted to make a constant, but local to a function, how would i do that? just use let? is there a performance issue over using def ?
22:46	machinewar	https://gist.github.com/AlexWheeler/84503e2fe46c37f2f2dcd31a294e49f8 having trouble with basic reduce function, when I call (even-or-odd [1 2 3 4 5]) I get (5)
22:47	machinewar	expecting {:evens [2 4] :odd [1 3 5]}
23:10	hiredman	it would be illuminating for you to print the arguments to your reducing function
23:10	hiredman	also maybe print out what the function returns every time it is run
23:12	hiredman	or just, sort of step through it in your head, what are the arguments the reducing function will get the first time it is called, what will be returned from it
23:20	TEttinger	reductions can be handy too.
23:20	TEttinger	,(reduce + [10 20 30 40])
23:20	TEttinger	,(reductions + [10 20 30 40])
23:21	clojurebot	100
23:21	clojurebot	(10 30 60 100)