#clojure – 2016-03-16

2016-03-16

00:11	rhg135	maybe deep down you knew
00:38	sdegutis	Perhaps.
00:38	sdegutis	Why is all the code I've ever written in my past terrible?
00:39	rhg135	has anyone else besides you said that? We're our worst critics.
00:39	sdegutis	It's almost as if (is-code-good? code) is implemented as (.before (:date-written code) (java.util.Date.))
00:39	sdegutis	Or perhaps (constantly false).
00:40	sdegutis	Hmm. Nobody has seen my code, so nobody can say that.
00:40	sdegutis	Oops that should be .after not .before
00:40	sdegutis	Also it's cleaner looking this way (. (:date-written code) after (java.util.Date.)) but I don't know if that's valid syntax.
00:40	sdegutis	,(. (java.util.Date.) before (java.util.Date.))
00:41	rhg135	(constantly false) sounds right
00:41	clojurebot	false
00:42	rhg135	,(. (java.util.Date.) (before (java.util.Date)))
00:42	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval49 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval49 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval49 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 692...
00:42	rhg135	,(.. (java.util.Date.) (before (java.util.Date))) ; yay
00:42	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval73 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval73 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval73 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 692...
00:42	rhg135	aww
00:43	rhg135	,(.. (java.util.Date.) (before (java.util.Date.))) ; heh
00:43	clojurebot	false
00:44	rhg135	you just need to squint a bit at that exception
01:04	sdegutis	wait, what?
01:04	sdegutis	Oh, missing period.
01:04	sdegutis	Heh.
01:04	sdegutis	,(. (java.util.Date.) (before (java.util.Date.)))
01:04	clojurebot	false
01:04	sdegutis	clojurebot: YOU SUCK
01:04	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
01:04	sdegutis	exactly.
01:06	rhg135	Don't be mean to her!
01:20	sdegutis	You.. you gave it a /name/ ???
01:23	sdegutis	Goodnight rhg135
01:24	rhg135	You must be in Europe
01:24	rhg135	Those timezones
01:25	sdegutis	Haha.
01:26	sdegutis	,(java.util.Date.)
01:26	clojurebot	#inst "2016-03-16T05:26:17.092-00:00"
01:26	sdegutis	Hmm, yeah that's about 5 hours off.
01:26	sdegutis	Good night.
04:59	zipper	How can I find out how to identify the library I want from clojars? For example all I know is that I want to use `Thread/sleep`
05:01	ben_vulpes	that'd be a java call, zipper
05:01	ben_vulpes	,(.sleep Thread 50)
05:01	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching method found: sleep for class java.lang.Class"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching method found: sleep for class java.lang.Class"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 53]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 53]\n [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeInstanceMe...
05:01	ben_vulpes	or something like that
05:02	ben_vulpes	,(sleep Thread. 50)
05:02	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: sleep in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: sleep in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6688]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: sleep in this...
05:02	zipper	ben_vulpes: Let me google how to make a java call from clojure
05:02	qsys	'(Thread/sleep 50)
05:02	qsys	,(Thread/sleep 50)
05:02	clojurebot	nil
05:02	qsys	sleep is a static of class 'Thread'
05:03	qsys	so you call it with (Thread/sleep xx)
05:03	qsys	http://clojure.org/reference/java_interop
05:07	zipper	I get a null pointer exception on `((Thread/sleep 1000) (println "hi"))`
05:07	zipper	Even though it does delay and prints as expected.
05:07	zipper	Then the exception comes later.
05:08	qsys	Thread/sleep returns nil
05:09	luma	you're calling the return value of Thread/sleep as a function
05:09	qsys	so your expression evaluates, if I'm right, to (nil (println "hi"))
05:09	luma	it returns nil (and so does println), so you're actually calling (nil nil)
05:09	luma	,(nil nil)
05:09	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Can't call nil, form: (nil nil)"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, form: (nil nil), compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6875]}\n {:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Can't call nil, form: (nil nil)"\n :at [clojure.la...
05:09	qsys	and than 'nil' is a 'function call'
05:09	qsys	thx luma :p
05:09	zipper	I see
05:10	i-blis	qsys: wrap in a do
05:10	luma	,(do (Thread/sleep 1000) (println "hi"))
05:10	clojurebot	hi\n
05:10	i-blis	,(do (Thread/sleep 3000) :value)
05:10	clojurebot	:value
05:41	zipper	Hey why would this require be failing on me https://www.refheap.com/4ecaf595303df887e0cad70e5
05:42	hiredman	there is no namespace core.async
05:43	ridcully_	is :gen-class a thing in cljs?
05:43	hiredman	nope
05:43	ridcully_	guessed so
05:44	zipper	I'm not using cljs
05:45	zipper	It seems that I am though. I am currently just simulating uploads.
05:45	ridcully_	but require-macro/include-macros is cljs only (right?)
05:45	zipper	Here's a better one then https://www.refheap.com/2bb002a66f61f1c2641410321
05:46	zipper	Improved and the error has reduced.
05:46	zipper	ridcully_: I am learning so much in parallel it's confusing.
05:47	zipper	FilenotFoundException hmmm maybe it hasn't downloaded the lib
05:52	zipper	How can I see the return values of `ret-num` in the repl?
05:54	AndreasO	Draw multiple objects on seesaw canvas, not knowing amount or places beforehand?
07:24	aurelian	hi there... I need to collect some data by doing some api calls, but now I have to add another data source, another service that will basically return same kind of data.
07:24	aurelian	now, I've been trying to figure out what's the best way to do that, should I use defprotocol or definterface or just stick with simple fn and not overthink this thing?
08:31	adam2	Hi there !
08:34	adam2	I have a bit of a hard time finding good doc about macros in clojurescript
09:15	iMadper	Hi. I have following code to read logs into list from a file. (println "loading file done in: " (time (def lines (str/split-lines (slurp "log2"))))) However it runs extermely slow. (~3000ms) (compare to golang or Crystal-lang in 100ms) May I know what's the correct way? :-)
09:16	iMadper	The log2 is about 300MB
09:18	iMadper	oops, it should be read as "(~13000ms)"
09:20	opqdonut	you could write your own loop that uses BufferedReader.readLine
09:20	opqdonut	and you could also profile slurp and split-lines separately
09:20	dysfun	slurp is really meant for reading small files
09:21	iMadper	opqdonut: Thanks a lot. I will give it a try.
09:21	dysfun	and split-lines is probably not horrifically efficient
09:21	iMadper	opqdonut: slurp is slow as well..
09:21	opqdonut	it seems split-lines just calls java's String.split
09:21	dysfun	if you need high performance IO, the java reader stuff is worth looking into
09:21	opqdonut	but still, if you have lots of lines it doesn't make sese to read the file into a huge string and then split
09:22	iMadper	dysfun: Yeah you are right. Slurp is slow for a big file.
09:22	opqdonut	https://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.java.io-api.html lots of useful stuff here
09:22	dysfun	slurp is more a convenience for when you're in the repl and want to play with some data
09:22	iMadper	I see. Thanks you all.
09:22	opqdonut	e.g. (input-stream "filename") should give you something you can call .readLine on
09:22	iMadper	I'll try some other api. :-)
09:23	opqdonut	sorry, (reader "filename")
09:26	dysfun	bufferedreader is good because it will read in large chunks
09:27	dysfun	so you're trying to parse a logfile?
09:27	iMadper	dysfun: yes.
09:27	dysfun	is it a widely used format?
09:27	iMadper	dysfun: No.
09:27	dysfun	ah
09:28	dysfun	do you have to read a lot of them?
09:28	dysfun	as in is performance a hard requirement here?
09:28	iMadper	dysfun: not a hard requirement. I just want to know why my program is so slow...
09:29	dysfun	ah right. well if you don't have strong performance requirements, you might find something like parse-ez quite helpful
09:29	dysfun	but you'll have to google it because i don't have a browser installed yet on this machine :)
09:30	iMadper	dysfun: Yeah, I can google it even if I'm in China. lol
09:30	dysfun	oh is google forbidden at the minute?
09:30	iMadper	yes.
09:30	dysfun	and baidu has been serving malware in its ads
09:30	dysfun	quality
09:31	iMadper	Sometimes you just won't get the correct answer by using Baidu...
09:32	dysfun	i remember at my college (a top 20 college in britain, thus very attractive for rich chinese parents to send their kids off to get educated)
09:33	dysfun	we were having an 'everyone in the year' presentation sort of thing and the woman on the stage said "be sure to google tiananmen square while you're here"
09:33	iMadper	lol~
09:34	rks	lol
09:35	rks	did anyone heard about shenlanguage
09:35	rks	?
09:35	rks	i just visited their website
09:35	dysfun	no, what's their USP?
09:36	rks	you can visit their website http://shenlanguage.org/
09:37	wink	was that the one with the license kerfuffle?
09:37	rks	a lisp dialect that have types, pattermatching like prolog
09:37	dysfun	hrm, interesting
09:37	dysfun	probably not interesting enough for me to bother learning, but interesting enough to look at
09:38	rks	it grew some interest on me
09:38	dysfun	i'm sceptical that lisps with type systems work terribly well
09:39	rks	i see
09:39	dysfun	i like haskell's type system, i like clojure, but the intersection of them is a bit weird
09:39	rks	in clojure in have schema / typeclojure
09:39	dysfun	and syntax for type annotations is universally awful
09:39	rks	*it
09:40	rks	i agree
09:40	rks	made in china :)
10:10	sdegutis	Is there some nifty way to replace nils with zero when adding?
10:10	sdegutis	fnil comes to mind, but I don't remember why it's there
10:11	sdegutis	,(+ ((fnil + 0) nil))
10:11	clojurebot	0
10:21	sdegutis	Never mind.
10:27	pyr	hola
10:38	faxmodem	que tal?
10:38	oracle123	I have some code as data in a file, but how to read it out as code?
10:38	oracle123	(read-string (slurp "my.ini" :encoding "utf-8"))
10:39	oracle123	I use that code, but it doesn't work
10:39	oracle123	The content of the file is {:accounts 1 :bidding? false :start-webdriver? true}
10:39	oracle123	But the result of read-string is empty
10:40	opqdonut	does the slurp work on its own?
10:40	opqdonut	because that does look correct
10:40	oracle123	it works for (slurp "my.ini" :encoding "utf-8")
10:40	opqdonut	what's the result of that?
10:40	oracle123	it should show the good result
10:41	wink	(:accounts (read-string (slurp "my.ini" :encoding "utf-8"))) -> 1
10:41	wink	works for me
10:41	oracle123	If I println , then the result of slurp is {:accounts 1 :bidding? false :start-webdriver? true}
10:41	oracle123
10:41	wink	maybe your file contents is different from what you pasted
10:41	oracle123	not sure whether the encoding is the problem
10:42	oracle123	Original it works on my linux, but when I share it with my friend who are on windows, then it failed
10:42	oracle123	So I save it in UTF-8 in notepad on windows and copy to linux
10:43	opqdonut	you could use (seq (slurp "my.ini" :encoding "utf-8")) to see what characters the file contains
10:43	opqdonut	in case there is something weird there
10:44	wink	maybe try a clojure.string/trim around slurp as well
10:46	oracle123	I tried trim, still doesn't work
10:46	opqdonut	what did seq give?
10:46	oracle123	if use seq, I could see \return \newline
10:47	oracle123	is that the problem?
10:47	wink	should not if you use trim
10:47	opqdonut	that's not a problem anwyay
10:47	oracle123
10:47	oracle123	(println (seq (load-config "/home/oracle/clojure/lein/page_scan_controller/config_test_no_chinese.ini")))
10:47	opqdonut	,(read-string "{:hello 1}\r\n")
10:47	clojurebot	{:hello 1}
10:47	oracle123	( { : a c c o u n t s 1 : b i d d i n g ? f a l s e : s t a r t - w e b d r i v e r ? t r u e }
10:47	oracle123
10:48	opqdonut	no don't println it
10:48	opqdonut	just run it and show what you see in the repl
10:48	opqdonut	or if you're not in a repl use prn
10:49	opqdonut	prn is what you should use when debugging, it doesn't hide stuff
10:49	oracle123	(\ \{ \: \a \c \c \o \u \n \t \s \space \1 \space \: \b \i \d \d \i \n \g \? \space \f \a \l \s \e \space \: \s \t \a \r \t \- \w \e \b \d \r \i \v \e \r \? \space \t \r \u \e \} \return \newline)
10:49	oracle123
10:49	oracle123	that's the prn
10:49	opqdonut	yeah that looks ok
10:50	oracle123	then why read-string return nothing?
10:51	opqdonut	are you certain it returns nothing? does nothing mean it returns nil?
10:52	prohobo	NOTHING
10:52	oracle123	in cider, it shows nothing, but when check it's type, it's clojure.lang.Symbol
10:53	opqdonut	hmm
10:53	oracle123	I can't see anything if run the read-string
10:53	oracle123	but if use (type (read-string (load-config "/home/oracle/clojure/lein/page_scan_controller/config_test_no_chinese.ini")))
10:54	opqdonut	maybe the first empty character in that string is some sort of weird non-breaking whitespace
10:54	opqdonut	which gets read as a symbol
10:54	oracle123	ok, let me delete the leading invisible char
10:55	opqdonut	,(read-string "\u00A0{:hello 1}")
10:55	clojurebot
10:55	opqdonut	something like that
10:55	opqdonut	my repl shows a ? character instead of an empty line
10:56	opqdonut	it might be the utf-8 byte order mark, created by notepad
10:56	opqdonut	,(read-string "\uFEFF{:hello 1}")
10:56	clojurebot
10:56	opqdonut	no idea why it shows up as "\ " and not \uFEFF or something
10:57	oracle123	yes, must because of the notepad, since when I work on linux native file, it works well
10:58	oracle123	but faield when work on the file coped from window notepad
10:58	oracle123	any workaround?
10:59	oracle123	In windows the repl show ?, in linux it show nothing
10:59	opqdonut	don't have BOMs in files
10:59	opqdonut	is the best solution
11:00	oracle123	so don't use notepad?
11:00	opqdonut	yeah
11:00	oracle123	then use what editor? the custome is not IT guys
11:00	oracle123	and I need to give them a tool to edit the file
11:00	oracle123	I have put the configuratoin in the file,
11:01	opqdonut	well you can ask them to save as ascii
11:01	opqdonut	or perhaps you can remove the BOM when reading
11:01	oracle123	But I have Chinese in the data
11:01	opqdonut	oh ok
11:01	oracle123	then how to remove BOM?
11:02	opqdonut	clojure.string/replace
11:02	opqdonut	for instance
11:02	opqdonut	,(clojure.string/replace "\uFEFF{:hello 1}" #"\uFEFF" "")
11:02	clojurebot	"{:hello 1}"
11:02	oracle123	great, let me try :)
11:05	opqdonut	googling reveals lots of problems with BOMs in clojure, it's kinda dumb that the reader doesn't support it
11:08	oracle123	yeap, it works, thanks very much
11:08	dysfun	opqdonut: that should probably be anchored to the start of string. the string is otherwise invalid
11:08	opqdonut	I don't think the BOM can occur anywhere else
11:08	dysfun	not and be valid, yes
11:08	opqdonut	but sure, why not
11:09	opqdonut	oracle123: you can use #"^\uFEFF" as the replacement regex for added safety
11:09	dysfun	if you can't trust a tool not to put a BOM except at the beginning of the string, you can't trust it to spit out unicode, period
11:09	opqdonut	would also give performance in case the string is long
11:09	dysfun	that was the main reason i suggested it, yeah :)
11:09	opqdonut	"if you can't trust a programming language to hand BOM you can't trust it to handle unicode, period"?
11:09	opqdonut	*handle
11:10	dysfun	clojure handles utf-8 absolutely fine
11:10	oracle123	should it be a bug? of just as design?
11:10	dysfun	well, i do think it is a bug, but i don't know whether reporting it would result in it being fixed
11:10	opqdonut	I think it's a bug, but opinions may vary
11:11	dysfun	there is an argument that you should be decoding the string, for example
12:57	amalloy	the BOM should be handled when reading the file, not when processing the string
12:57	amalloy	whatever file-reading mechanism load-config is using
12:58	amalloy	it should already be gone by the time you call read-string
12:59	dysfun	it should, but also clojure should be quite capable of skipping over a BOM
13:46	adam1	Hey there, any expert to generously give me a hint about macros in clojurescript ?
13:48	rhg135	They have to be in. .clj files that you require-macros in
13:48	adam1	Yes, but i get a "Could not locate pro/macro__init.class or pro/macro.clj on classpath" error and I'm not sure why
13:49	adam1	I've got a macro.clj file in the same directory as my *.cljs file, have specified the right namespace...
13:50	rhg135	Does that file actually load? Look at the cause there
13:51	rhg135	Squint at it
13:53	adam1	Hmmm
13:54	rhg135	You can probably get better information trying to require it in a clj repl. Keep in mind the expansions will not work
13:55	adam1	Not quite sure what you mean by "squint", my english is pretty decent nonetheless :p
13:57	adam1	But I can require the macro file from the repl
13:57	rhg135	I mean those traces sometimes require you to look at them differently
13:58	rhg135	That's strange, maybe there's more people that actually use cljs
13:59	adam1	I'll try to figure it out, quite weird indeed
14:16	adam1	Well, kinda works now
14:19	justin_smith	ben_vulpes: do you want Thread/currentThread ?
14:19	justin_smith	ugh, n/m, scrollback, sorry
14:52	sdegutis	My muscle memory suddenly went blank, I can't remember how to jump to the definition of a symbol, or what that's even called in Cider. Anyone remember?
14:53	amalloy	M-.
14:53	sdegutis	Oh right, C-u M-.
14:53	sdegutis	Thanks amalloy.
14:54	sdegutis	amalloy: we may not see eye to eye on everything, but you're a swell chap and a mighty fine Clojurian at that
14:54	amalloy	C-u? what does it do without that prefix?
14:54	sdegutis	amalloy: I think it asks you to specify what symbol without the prefix.
14:54	sdegutis	amalloy: with the prefix, it just jumps to the symbol under your cursor.
14:54	amalloy	lame. it should be the opposite imo
14:54	sdegutis	For sure.
14:55	amalloy	it's the opposite in slime
14:55	sdegutis	Isn't that a predecessor of Cider? I vaguely remember that name.
14:56	sdegutis	Oh right, it's the CL thing.
14:56	sdegutis	Haha, "Common Lisp".
14:56	justin_smith	and alos a cider precessor
14:56	amalloy	"precessor": it was a cesspool before cider was?
14:56	sdegutis	Haha. "Cesspool."
14:56	justin_smith	oops, heh
14:57	amalloy	ps i don't feel that strongly about cider. just an opportune pun
14:57	justin_smith	amalloy: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/precessor
14:57	justin_smith	:P
14:57	justin_smith	amalloy: I read a novel from the 18th century recently, I think it did damage
14:57	sdegutis	Good day, gentlemen.
14:57	amalloy	"obsolete" in 1913. rip
14:57	justin_smith	like I said, it's all 18th century literature's fault
14:58	amalloy	almost as outdated as slime
15:01	sdegutis	Hmm, seems the chatter died down in here. Welp, back to being productive for me I guess.
15:38	rhg135	justin_smith: that's not a unfortunate thing. now we have things like anyways, ain't, and bad meaning good
15:39	RedNifre	Heya. I first installed Clojure from the Ubuntu repository and got an outdated version but I could start .clj files with "clojure bla.clj". I got rid of that version and used leiningen instead. Does the leiningen repl only work for projects or can I start a single file with it?
15:39	RedNifre	When I try "lein run somefile.clj" it looks for a namespace in a missing project file.
15:40	RedNifre	Also, is it possible to write a shebang and execute clj files like "./somefile.clj"?
15:40	rhg135	I want to say yes, but that will only help if you have no deps
15:40	justin_smith	RedNifre: on linux a jar file is executable, so you can do ./clojure-1.8.jar somefile.clj
15:40	rhg135	and yes to shebang
15:41	justin_smith	oh, yeah #!/path/to/clojure.jar on the first line of the file
15:41	hiredman	it is
15:42	hiredman	how to do that is kind of complicated, because it turns out that how the shebang line is handled isn't entirely standard on different unix like systems
15:42	rhg135	if you have deps, just make a project
15:42	hiredman	osx is kind of the easiest to make work, linux takes more work
15:42	rhg135	or inlein I guess
15:42	justin_smith	there's that new thing hyPiRion did, is that inlein?
15:42	hiredman	osx is easy to make work because it handles multiple arguments to the program in the shebang line like you would expect
15:43	rhg135	yeah that thing
15:43	rhg135	I've never used it, but it should work here
15:44	RedNifre	Hm, sounds like I couldn't just hand a .clj script to somebody else though. I guess making a jar is more reliable, huh?
15:44	rhg135	yeah
15:44	hiredman	yeah
15:44	rhg135	windows...
15:45	rhg135	also, deps
15:46	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/a8fb63ec64704ecb967f this style shebang works on osx
15:48	hiredman	on linux I've done stuff like https://gist.github.com/hiredman/0ecf33119a470339c89e so the file ends up valid shell and valid clojure
15:48	rhg135	yay for hardwiring paths, but I didn't know linux didn't habdle arguments
15:48	hiredman	(with the actually clojure code following that)
15:50	hiredman	you can actually avoid all that, by putting the java -jar clojure.jar bits in a shell script, and using that as the shebang line, but there is no standard way to do that
15:52	rhg135	maybe I only dreamt it worked
15:52	RedNifre	Hm, could I just put #!clojure at the beginning of the file and tell people to make sure they alias clojure="path/to/the/clojure.jar" ?
15:52	rhg135	I could have sworn I tried the former and it ran fine
15:52	justin_smith	I don't think a shebang will check aliases for the first line
15:52	hiredman	I am not sure aliases work for that, and you need the whole java bit, not just the clojure jar
15:52	RedNifre	jar it is then.
15:53	hiredman	the jar is easier to deal with dependencies too
15:53	rhg135	plus it's pretty easy to run still
15:54	rhg135	java -jar ...
15:54	RedNifre	Different topic, I have a problem about namespaces. I think I might kinda understand namespaces, not sure. To learn clojure I thought it might be fun to write a tiny text adventure. What I have right now is a dictionary from commands to functions, i.e. { "look" (fn [gamestate] ...) "take" (fn [gamestate] ...)} etc. Would it be a good idea to somehow turn that into a command namespace and replace it with (defn look [gamestate] ...) (defn t
15:54	RedNifre	ake [gamestate] ...) etc.?
15:55	justin_smith	RedNifre: having an explicit map from string to action is a nice way to isolate your implementation from the text UI
15:56	rhg135	I think either would work, but being explicit is nice
15:56	justin_smith	rather than some scheme which ends up being essentially "take user input, automated transform, then eval", which is much messier
15:56	justin_smith	rhg135: my concern is the code that ends up mapping from the user input to the functions - if you don't have a hash-map with the mapping, you end up just giving the user a weird repl
15:57	justin_smith	which I mean hey, a repl is a UI too I guess, but might as well give them a real one if that's what it is
15:57	rhg135	not really if you limit it to just ns-resolve
15:58	RedNifre	But if I had the commands in a namespace I could have language based mappings so it would still be clean i.e. (def EN {"look" look}) (def DE {"schau" look}) etc. Or would that be (def EN {"look" command/look})? Hm.
15:58	justin_smith	,(ns-resolve ns 'eval) rhg135: nope
15:58	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/eval
15:58	justin_smith	it's jut a weird repl, even with ns-resolve
15:59	rhg135	you could tag your vars, but it is messy as you say
15:59	RedNifre	Okay, so I'll keep the {"string" (fn..)} thing. What would be a good use for namespaces then?
15:59	justin_smith	now you could make an explicit hash-map lookup in the definitions of that ns alone, but the real hash-map in the file has the advantage of being more explicit
15:59	rhg135	look it up in ns-publics too
16:00	rhg135	indeed
16:01	justin_smith	RedNifre: namespaces are for making collections of functions that combine to provide some kind of domain of functionality, where your project is easier to understand, maintain, and use if the functions are grouped in that way
16:01	justin_smith	functions plus a few constant values too I guess
16:01	RedNifre	But doesn't that sound EXACTLY like "bunch of game commands"?
16:01	justin_smith	RedNifre: absolutely not
16:02	justin_smith	RedNifre: I would make that hash map from command names to functions in one ns, and define the individual functions in namespaces separated by theme or type of action
16:02	justin_smith	start with oen or two, split them as they become messy
16:03	RedNifre	Alright, I'll keep it as is and see where I'll end up.
16:03	RedNifre	Thanks for the feedback.
16:48	ben_vulpes	anyone ever get "NoClassDefFoundError org/apache/http/conn/ManagedHttpClientConnection com.amazonaws.http.protocol.SdkHttpRequestExecutor.doSendRequest " when using amazonica?
16:49	amalloy	probably a dependency-version conflict
16:49	hiredman	^-
17:03	ben_vulpes	exciting!
17:05	ben_vulpes	amalloy: shall i just start snipping libs out until i find the conflicting one?
17:06	amalloy	see what `lein deps :tree` thinks
17:06	amalloy	it'll point out conflicts
17:06	amalloy	(you probably have a lot of conflicts that are just lurking, and then this one that's actually doing damage)
17:09	ben_vulpes	amalloy: good grief
17:09	ben_vulpes	been doing this long? :P
17:09	amalloy	doing what long?
17:11	ben_vulpes	working with clojure, answering questions in irc
17:13	amalloy	yes
17:14	ben_vulpes	it shows
17:14	ben_vulpes	(thank you)
18:18	kellytk	Is there a channel for lisp web dev? I found noone in #om
18:19	rhg135	I don't think there is any I know of
18:20	kellytk	Oh, thank you rhg135
18:21	rhg135	here is usually pretty useful
18:21	TEttinger	yep
18:25	rhg135	#clojurescript can be nice too, but dnolen is also here ;)
19:34	gfredericks	is there a clojure-flavored lisp somewhere that aims at purity & simplicity and a formal spec?
19:35	amalloy	dang gfredericks, you are complecting '&' and 'and'
19:35	rhg135	purity? as in haskell with ()
19:35	amalloy	you are forbidden from participating in this simple lisp
19:35	amalloy	rhg135: what does () have to do with it?
19:36	rhg135	it doesn't really
19:36	rhg135	you can have lists without ()
19:36	gfredericks	oh I also forgot to say that I was imagining not a full general-purpose language
19:36	gfredericks	so IO not strictly necessary
19:37	amalloy	gfredericks: lambda calculus
19:37	gfredericks	you could say what I'm imagining is more of an edn-processing subset of clojure
19:38	gfredericks	but that isn't afraid to break compatibility to eradicate edge cases
19:38	gfredericks	or to simplify things
19:38	gfredericks	e.g., only one integer type
19:39	gfredericks	no vars
19:39	hiredman	have you heard of klambda?
19:39	rhg135	lambda calculus has only one type
19:39	gfredericks	nope
19:41	gfredericks	something to do with shen?
19:41	hiredman	it is the langauge for bootstrapping shen, I guess
19:41	gfredericks	aah
19:42	hiredman	I tend to think of those sorts of things as urlisps
19:43	hiredman	they are sort of like ir languages in compilers, or bytecodes in runtimes
19:43	gfredericks	I think I keep imagining it as a language that could be used to describe business logic in a sterile and easy-to-analyze environment
19:43	gfredericks	and especially could be implemented in any clojure dialect fairly easily, following a spec so as to give identical behavior
19:43	hiredman	clojure without '.'
19:44	gfredericks	'.' meaning interop?
19:44	hiredman	yeah
19:44	gfredericks	yeah that'd be a big part of it
19:44	gilch	Maybe implement edn in Scheme?
19:44	rhg135	specs, pfft. C has done fine so far without those
19:45	hiredman	there is so overlap with this with sandboxing
19:45	gfredericks	yes absolutely
19:45	hiredman	which I have spent time thinking about re clojurebot
19:45	gfredericks	executing untrusted code is another use case
19:46	gfredericks	AWS lambda etc
19:46	gilch	WISP is Clojure-like.
19:47	gfredericks	looks JS oriented?
19:47	hiredman	for sandboxing at various times I have looked at adding hooks to the compiler so you could take control over how it compiles special forms and writing an interpreter for clojure
19:49	hiredman	but it sounds like the difference is, while for sandboxing I largely wanted clojure semantics, with some extra control points
19:50	gfredericks	yeah definitely
19:50	hiredman	while you want a total subset of clojure
19:50	gfredericks	except the parts I don't like :)
19:50	gfredericks	I figured a first pass impl could either be an interpreter or naive compile to clojure forms
19:51	hiredman	you would like to be able to specify transforms over datastructures
19:51	gfredericks	for the spec part you mean?
19:51	gfredericks	or the compiler?
19:52	hiredman	I am restating what I think your goal is, so you can tell me I am wrong
19:52	hiredman	:)
19:53	gfredericks	oh you mean the purpose of the language then?
19:53	hiredman	yeah
19:54	gfredericks	yeah that's totally fair
19:54	gfredericks	another use case would be implementing something like jq but for edn
19:54	gfredericks	on that note if I took this seriously I might have to fork edn
19:54	hiredman	have you seen specter?
19:54	gfredericks	the marz thing?
19:54	hiredman	I haven't used it, but it seems like that
19:54	hiredman	yeah
19:54	gfredericks	not in detail
19:54	gfredericks	presumably I'll see it a month from now
19:54	gilch	pixie is also Clojure-like
19:54	hiredman	indeed
19:55	gfredericks	if I could get away with a subset of edn I could name it ed
19:58	TEttinger	then someone forks that, ned
19:58	TEttinger	nicely extensible data
19:59	rhg135	then someon forks that, yay oss
19:59	hiredman	so specter has you specify a path (sort of like update-in, but more powerful) then you can either select out whatever is there or transform whatever is there
19:59	hiredman	so sort of like a more powerful version of get-in or update-in
20:00	hiredman	the transform of course can be an arbitrary clojure function, which may not be what you want
20:00	hiredman	but I dunno, I am not sure some restricted form of clojure is the best way to express a restricted set of changes
20:01	gfredericks	portability and exactness and simplicity are a big motivation for me
20:01	hiredman	there are lots of dsls for this kind of (jq, xslt, sql, etc)
20:02	gfredericks	sure
20:02	hiredman	(specter)
20:03	hiredman	there are, I think, regexes style libraries for clojure datastructures, that you could use to build some kind of sed for clojure data structures
20:04	hiredman	also hello haskell and lens and prisms and traversals oh my
20:07	hiredman	given lenses, I think you can model something like jq as pushing and popping lenses on a stack, which is actually kind of similar to zippers
20:09	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/hiredman/acf9d25ec013d694e2bb
20:09	hiredman	very zipper like
20:12	gfredericks	I'm still fixated on something that smells like a general purpose language
20:12	hiredman	well, so clojure is a general purpose language, why not use that?
20:14	hiredman	(this is like the fourth or fifth macro I've written named flense that does something relective on a class, but the end result is entirely different)
20:14	gfredericks	because I also want something a lot less messy than clojure
20:15	gfredericks	both w.r.t. platform stuff, other weird edge cases, and impurity
20:16	hiredman	is this subset going to ship with its own std library?
20:18	gfredericks	hiredman: yeah, though maybe heavily backed by clojure where appropriate; I'd want it to be logically untied to clojure
20:21	hiredman	so you are thinking a real language, that you would write a program in (as opposed to a fragment of a program I guess?) where you would define functions that could be reused in other parts of the program?
20:23	gfredericks	hiredman: yeah I think that and the related question of libs are the biggest thing I'm not sure about
20:24	gfredericks	and probably like 20 other thorny issues I haven't even thought of yet
20:26	hiredman	there is a design space between clojure and more declarative data dsls (like sql, specter, etc), but I have a heard time imagining something in that design space being particular useful
20:26	gfredericks	yeah :/
20:28	rhg135	specter itself leans on clojure to actually manipulate data
20:33	gfredericks	I've just got this soft spot for perfect ideal abstractions without messy host/perf-based edge cases
20:35	gfredericks	ugh and I'd have to have opinions about exception handling too, this would be the biggest yak...
20:36	amalloy	just declare your language unexceptional
20:36	gfredericks	nothing can crash
20:37	gfredericks	you could take the haskell approach and say you can throw errors but not catch them
20:37	gfredericks	oh geez and what about laziness I hate everything
20:38	amalloy	you can catch them in haskell though
20:38	amalloy	it's just discouraged
20:38	gfredericks	only in IO right?
20:38	amalloy	well, in the monad that your errors live in. so you can catch IO exceptions in IO, or Either exceptions in Either...
20:39	gfredericks	I was talking about (head []) in particular
20:40	rhg135	division by zero too
20:40	gfredericks	right
20:43	amalloy	right, those are IO exceptions
20:44	gfredericks	and the others don't apply because gfrlang doesn't have monads
20:44	rhg135	I guess technically moving electrons qualifies as io