#clojure – 2016-01-22

2016-01-22

00:14	rhg135	I'm an idiot; I had slf4j misconfigured and hence did not log the exception in my transducer...
00:36	baritonehands	justin_smith: Continuation from yesterday, https://github.com/baritonehands/avalon/blob/master/src/clj/avalon/models/crud.clj
00:36	baritonehands	https://github.com/baritonehands/avalon/blob/master/src/clj/avalon/models/memdb.clj
00:36	baritonehands	Still not sure what to do with sate
00:36	baritonehands	state
02:13	WickedShell	post upgrade to clj 1.8.0 I periodically get error messages that disappear after doing a lein clean; lein repl again. (lein version 2.5.3) It appears that lein isn't reliably rebuilding files based on dependencies. Is this expected or related to turning on direct linking?
04:43	marianoguerra	hi! I'm building an uberjar with lein uberjar but I want to have the ability to add some jars from the classpath at run time (jdbc drivers) by printing the classpath I can't get it to add another classpath than the current jar, any hint on how to do it?
05:01	Glenjamin	marianoguerra: that's a limitation of `java -jar`, you have to add the uberjar to the classpath and specify the main class
05:05	marianoguerra	Glenjamin: you mean I have to run the non standalone jar, add the standalone jar in the classpath and specify the main class?
05:06	Glenjamin	yep: java -cp somejar.jar:uberjar.jar your.main.Class
05:07	marianoguerra	Glenjamin: it worked, thanks!
05:07	Glenjamin	i ran into that exact issue last week :)
05:08	marianoguerra	Glenjamin: I was googling for the last half hour, many false positives with terms like lein uberjar and classpath :/
11:38	tangled_z	hi! I was wondering if anyone tried to combine using typed clojure with re-frame?
11:41	tangled_z	because re-frame puts all of its content into a single app-db elemement, and I have no idea how that would be typed.
11:42	tangled_z	by "content" i meant "state".
11:49	dnolen	tangled_z: I think you mean Typed ClojureScript?
11:49	dnolen	if so, Typed ClojureScript has been maintained in a couple of years
11:51	Glenjamin	did you mean to say has?
12:16	dnolen	er yeah I mean "hasn't"
12:48	tangled_z	dnolen: thanks for the reply! yeah, that's what i meant.
12:48	tangled_z	Hmm, that's a shame.
12:48	tangled_z	I guess I'll use prismatic/schema then
12:52	rcassidy	anyone use paredit.vim? it seems to be mucking with being able to yank and delete to registers
13:14	bja	rcassidy: I was using vim-sexp and tpope's mappings for it
13:14	bja	https://github.com/tpope/vim-sexp-mappings-for-regular-people
13:15	bja	I had no such problems with it messing with my registers
13:27	rcassidy	bja: thanks, i'll check this out.
13:28	rcassidy	i've been used to the paredit mappings though, these are way different.... taking over the word movement operators seems both a great and awful idea.
13:29	rcassidy	oh man even the normal vim-sexp mappings are also pretty different. gah, muscle memory
13:32	ridcully	yep paredit messes with a lot of things (., block edits, registers...). yet i prefer it as it makes a good job on keeping the file intact
16:04	WorldsEndless	Trying to get some interop code to work, java has "Text.class" but it doesn't seem to have the same result as (class Text)
16:06	ridcully	,(= (class String) (.getClass String))
16:06	clojurebot	true
16:06	WorldsEndless	Ok
16:08	luma	,(class String)
16:08	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
16:09	ridcully	,String
16:09	clojurebot	java.lang.String
16:19	justin_smith	WorldsEndless: java's Text.class is the same as clojure's Text (in case that is not clear here)
16:43	xyh	If I have (ns interpreter.buffer) in 'interpreter/buffer.clj' how do I use it in 'interpreter/core.clj' ?
16:43	justin_smith	(ns interpreter.core (:require [interpreter.buffer :as buffer])) (buffer/foo ...)
16:45	justin_smith	you can put anything after :as but the convention is just to grab the last part of the ns
16:46	xyh	repl says :: FileNotFoundException Could not locate interpreter/buffer__init.class or interpreter/buffer.clj on classpath.
16:46	justin_smith	so if you did [interpreter.buffer :as b] you could call (b/foo ...)
16:46	justin_smith	xyh: was there an error in interpreter.buffer when you first tried to load it?
16:47	justin_smith	oh wait, no
16:47	justin_smith	xyh: are you using leiningen?
16:49	xyh	I am using the REPL in emacs (but not cider.el)
16:49	justin_smith	xyh: what kind of repl? clojure.jar, lein?
16:49	xyh	clojure.jar
16:50	justin_smith	xyh: start the repl like this: java -cp clojure.jar:path/to/code/ clojure.main
16:50	justin_smith	where path/to/code is the path leading to the directory containing the interpreter/ directory
16:51	xyh	oh, this path is included in classpath then ?
16:51	justin_smith	xyh: the deal is that when you use require, clojure looks for the code on the classpath, so the code has to be findable on that path
16:51	justin_smith	xyh: that's what -cp does, yeah
16:51	xyh	thx
16:52	justin_smith	xyh: also, once you start using other people's libs, you'll find it much easier to use lein or boot, but for starting I think it's great to use clojure.jar (and know when it's simpler to just use that)
17:07	domgetter	leiningen says "WARNING: You're currently running as root; probably by accident." but I'm not logged in as root, just an account with sudoer access. Is this something I should worry about or should I make an account that doesn't make lein say that?
17:08	justin_smith	domgetter: huh, I have sudoer access and lein never tells me this...
17:08	justin_smith	(unless I'm root that is)
17:08	domgetter	hmm
17:09	domgetter	oh I'm a dummy. I ran sudo ./lein
17:39	kwladyka	i want solve my old topic... i am looking solution to manage architecture in Clojure: 1) Change how functions work inside in any moment of project. For example function for save/read in DB. Or integration with ERP. 2) Change how functions work depend on configuration file. For example use another DB engine or another ERP system. 3) Do not pass nested injection dependency from function on level 1 to function on level 10 through level
17:39	kwladyka	2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 if only level 10 needs it. 4) I could change how system work in configuration file and it should be use in one main file to inject into system. One place to control dependency.
17:40	kwladyka	In that moment i am thinking about defprotocol, Monads,Stuart Sierra compontent - somebody can say something clever in topic? :)
17:41	ridcully	have you looked into component, mount, ...
17:42	ridcully	also imho a _massive_ change like this does not happen to often in a project. it _could_ take away valuable dev time for nothing. or just take the time to pick the "
17:42	kwladyka	ridcully yes and i am even more confuse :
17:42	kwladyka	:)
17:43	ridcully	right" db in the beginning
17:43	kwladyka	ofcourse but db is a good example
17:43	kwladyka	it could be ERP system
17:43	kwladyka	but it is easier to think about DB because everybody know how it works
17:44	kwladyka	so.... in your experience which of these are the best for my point 1,2,3,4 ?
17:46	ridcully	try them out and see what fits your needs. there is no "best"
17:47	ridcully	if there would be a best we all would be using it it and nothing else would exist
17:49	kwladyka	ok so i will reverse the question. Can definitely say some of this methods don't meet the conditions?
17:50	justin_smith	kwladyka: all conventional clojure approaches fail your criteria
17:50	kwladyka	justin_smith why?
17:51	justin_smith	kwladyka: because clojure doesn't have mainstream options for config based DI
17:54	kwladyka	justin_smith so what do you use when you want have good flexible architecture? What is your opinion? Business is changing and need from time to time change part of system from definition. For example we can imagine we want change ERP system and another system with integrations should be ready for that. Just change way of communication and all should works.
17:55	justin_smith	kwladyka: I define an interface, my code is all written in terms of using that interface, and then I change the implementation of that interface (or which one we realize) in the apropriate place in the code
17:55	justin_smith	well, usually a protocol, but same concept
17:56	justin_smith	the problem with doing this via the config is then everyone has to agree on a config system, and the magic by which the config system controls the code, and unless everyone decides on the same one it will be worse than not having one
17:57	kwladyka	justin_smith so don't you use monads, Stuart Sierra components or similar solutions?
17:57	justin_smith	kwladyka: I absolutely do use components, but they have nothing to do with what we were just talking about
17:57	justin_smith	stuartsierra's component is about managing lifecycles of stateful resources
17:58	justin_smith	I mean yeah you could also use it to pass implementations of some protocol to clients, but that's not special about his system, you could do that via regular functions or data atached to ring requests or magic top level vars or whatever
18:01	justin_smith	kwladyka: also, when you mention passing some object from a to b, and from b to c, c to d, d to e, all the way down but only e needs it, every namespace level var is an extra arg passed to every function in your codebase, at least in the former case you can pick which things you are passing
18:01	kwladyka	so the conclusion is.... defprotocol is probably the best
18:02	justin_smith	That's what I'd use at least. And yeah, really clojure doesn't have the thing you are describing.
18:04	kwladyka	just looking the way to do really good architecture and i am doing loop in my head all the time about how it should work. I get lost somewhere in my head :)
18:07	kwladyka	but i learned more about how it shouldn't work ;) it is always something ;)
18:08	justin_smith	kwladyka: one comparison that I like to make is that a var, a dynamic threadbound var, a value in a config atom, and an argument passed explicitly to your function are all ways to get the right value to the place it is needed. It turns out that if you write the base level stuff in terms of explicitly passing an arg, you can use that to implement all of the others (and more). The others are not as flexible, and trying to use them other ways is a total
18:09	justin_smith	kwladyka: so on an app architecture level - when tying it all together - use whatever makes sense / whatever is simplest without hindering you
18:09	justin_smith	kwladyka: but in terms of putting together the parts that make up the whole, write it in terms of values explicitly passed in. That's 100% flexible and will be compatible with any system structure you ever decide to use.
18:10	justin_smith	so do all the details with explicitly passed in args, because it is easier, and then use whatever you want at the top level
18:14	kwladyka	justin_smith i have one problem with that. I don't want situation where something from function on level 1 is pass to function on level2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 to use that in function on level 10. It makes a mess after some time. But maybe it has to be like that.
18:16	justin_smith	kwladyka: that's the price yes, but even that is simpler than what you would need to do if the code expects the thing to be a global and you need to bind it locally or use a different value in a specific context.
18:17	justin_smith	and it's not hard to write a wrapper that lets the higher level code just set a global or something, which the wrapper code passes in as args.
18:26	amalloy	think of the way ring handlers and middlewares work. there's all kinds of junk at the top level that is needed by stuff at the bottom level, and it all gets passed through by hand, but you don't "notice" because it's in one giant map
18:27	amalloy	as long as you make the thing your level-10 function needs be part of the big ol' "configuration" object that every layer is passing through anyway, it's no big hassle to add more stuff to that
18:27	amalloy	ie, it only hurts once
18:28	justin_smith	"clojure: it only hurts once"
18:29	ridcully	and ideas like "lets replace the db-url in config", pass it down and everything magically works, are pipe dreams
18:29	justin_smith	ridcully: so that's never actually worked?
18:30	justin_smith	ridcully: but remember he's not even talking about db-url, he's talking about which implementation of the db storage interface
18:30	ridcully	have you ever tested your stuff against h2 and the actualy production db is something "real"?
18:30	kwladyka	justin_smith bigger problem is after some time it make a mess in code. Imagine somebody change function 10 to not use some data passed into all this levels. And add something else. After some time when new person will see this code he wouldn't have any idea this parts of code/data are necessary and why it is that. Something deeper need this or somebody didn't remove it.
18:30	kwladyka	It is what i want to avoid.
18:31	kwladyka	and mess on higher function pass to function below and after few function, few programmers and time....
18:31	justin_smith	kwladyka: do you delete random fields from classes because you don't know what they are for? why would you do this with function arguments?
18:31	amalloy	kwladyka: that's why i'm saying you want one big parameter, instead of a lot of small ones, so that the intermediate functions don't need to know the details of what's being passed except the part they care about
18:31	ridcully	justin_smith: it (might) work on the level you suggested. domain-model. swap out "create customer" withing something else.
18:32	kwladyka	justin_smith because code after some time is unnecessary complex and hard to understand.
18:33	kwladyka	is has to be clean from time to time, but when you change something on the bottom you don't clean everything higher all the time.
18:33	justin_smith	kwladyka: right, and exactly the same thing happens with methods on objects, and fields on objects, and entire interfaces - when people lose track of the design, things stick around because nobody knows what is needed and what isn't
18:34	kwladyka	amalloy it can be some kind of solution
18:34	justin_smith	there's nothing special about using explicit args to pass values that is more likely to have that problem than any other factor of design
18:34	justin_smith	hell, I regularly find namespaces that just have no reason to exist any more
18:36	kwladyka	amalloy but from other hand you don't know what to pass then if there is only one big argument
18:36	justin_smith	kwladyka: sure you do - you pass that argument
18:37	justin_smith	kwladyka: what amalloy describes assumes that every function does this, all the way down to where you actually care about the values and pull them out of the map and use them
18:38	justin_smith	it leads to all of your "top level" functions that introduce major functionality always taking this one arg, and passing it along
18:38	kwladyka	justin_smith but if function on level 10 has arg called one-big-arg you don't what what this function really expect there.
18:39	amalloy	kwladyka: compare this to, eg, clojure.java.jdb
18:39	justin_smith	kwladyka: welcome to shitty design
18:39	amalloy	jdbc
18:39	amalloy	all its interesting functions take as the first argument something called db
18:39	amalloy	and you know they all take a database
18:40	amalloy	what's in a database? you don't even really need to know. i certainly don't. it's something that you produce by calling (connect) or whatever, and passing it the args describing how to find a db
18:40	amalloy	then later on, in its internal functions, it looks inside the db argument and finds whatever it needs
18:42	kwladyka	amalloy i am not sure it is the same. In this case db is generated by function from the same module to use in functions in the same module. But when you glue more things it is not so easy. It is not so compatible.
18:43	justin_smith	kwladyka: like I've been saying, there's nothing that will save you from bad design. But passing args explicitly solves a lot of problems caused by the other alternatives.
18:43	kwladyka	and still you pass only db connection there, it is one domain language and one part of something.
18:44	kwladyka	justin_smith it could be true. By "explicity" you mean more smaller arguments? Not one big?
18:45	ridcully	but isn't the same true in the upper levels? e.g. take some "create-order" fn, that takes a customer to create the order for. the customer there most likely is some map with internal stuff, that allows that
18:45	justin_smith	kwladyka: by explicitly I mean using arguments and not using anything global or implicit
18:45	justin_smith	kwladyka: whether it's one arg or a bunch in a hash-map doesn't matter
18:46	teepark	I'm going through @aphyr's "clojure from the ground up" and working on prblem 5 from https://aphyr.com/posts/305-clojure-from-the-ground-up-macros. this is where I am: https://gist.github.com/teepark/320c547d7fbd86ff8a8a
18:46	teepark	I'm pretty sure my exactify is working the way I want
18:46	teepark	but can't figure out how to alias those operators
18:47	justin_smith	and all these objections about losing track of what the args are for apply equally to interfaces, classes, methods, namespaces, literally every aspect of code - if you have a bad design and forget what things are for, every single one of these is capable of being a mess, I don't know why you are picking on function arguments specifically
18:48	kwladyka	justin_smith i am thinking more about rotation in project and people how don't have any idea what people before did an especially why they wrote something
18:48	teepark	the macroexpansion tries to "(let [clojure.core/+ ...]" but I think I need it to not expand to the qualified name in the binding
18:48	kwladyka	so many misspells... sorry for that
18:48	justin_smith	kwladyka: name one thing, one abstraction concept or level of organization that wouldn't have that problem
18:49	justin_smith	teepark: ` always fully qualifies symbols
18:50	justin_smith	teepark: you can avoid this by not using ` or by escaping the symbols to prevent ` from qualifying them
18:51	tomjack	hmm, when I remove a couple dependencies, the startup time for `LEIN_OFFLINE=1 lein trampoline repl :headless` goes from absolutely fucking ridiculous to normal...
18:53	justin_smith	,(macroexpand `(let [~'+ -] (~'+ 1 1)))
18:53	clojurebot	(let* [+ clojure.core/-] (+ 1 1))
18:53	amalloy	tomjack: what about LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE=1? afaik that's still not a default option, although there was some talk of it
18:53	amalloy	of course that doesn't address your implicit question about why these deps slow things down, but maybe that speeds stuff up enough that it's fine
18:53	justin_smith	,(eval `(let [~'+ -] (~'+ 1 1)))
18:53	clojurebot	0
18:53	tomjack	oh, hmm, I didn't think to ablate trampoline
18:54	justin_smith	tomjack: I've found heavy macro usage can make a difference - the difference in startup with and without core.async is noticible for example
18:54	teepark	justin_smith: thanks. the ~'+ quoting was what I was missing
18:55	justin_smith	teepark: yup - the reason ` does that qualifying thing is this kind of macro is considered messy and is historically a huge source of bugs
18:55	teepark	yeah I'd expect so
18:55	justin_smith	spooky action at a distance, code on the outside can change what code inside it means
18:55	teepark	not something I'd expect to do outside of an exercise
18:55	justin_smith	:)
18:56	tomjack	LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE does not appear to help, and `lein repl` appears to have the same problem. guess I will do the obvious thing and slap yourkit on it
18:56	justin_smith	tomjack: if fast trampoline doesn't help it's not the dep resolution that is the time sink
18:57	justin_smith	after that I would suspect deep dep trees pulling up huge amounts of code to compile, or crazy macros that demand a lot from the compiler
18:57	justin_smith	but yeah, yourkit will probably help
18:57	tomjack	I don't understand 'code to compile' or 'crazy macros'
18:58	tomjack	I've just got deps, I'm not loading any of the code in them, afaik
18:58	justin_smith	tomjack: oh, your repl starts in user?
18:58	tomjack	the dep trees are crazy though
18:58	tomjack	yeah
18:58	amalloy	IME running yourkit while clojure starts up will not give you anything very useful
18:58	amalloy	what are the deps that slow stuff down?
18:58	justin_smith	most people have their repls set to start up loading their main ns
18:58	amalloy	i dunno about "most people"
18:58	tomjack	deps into projects in my company's java monorepo
18:59	tomjack	maybe lein takes linear time in the craziness of my dep tree, and it's just the dep tree which is absolutely fucking ridiculous
19:01	justin_smith	tomjack: but with FAST_TRAMPOLINE it isn't recalculating your deps
19:01	justin_smith	it just uses the cached deps after the first time
19:02	justin_smith	it literally puts classpath in a file, and if your project.clj has not changed since the last startup, it reuses that classpath from the file
19:03	justin_smith	unless you do something that would slow down lein in the process of even deciding if your project has changed, but that seems super weird...
19:03	justin_smith	tomjack: so to be clear did you run LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE=truthy lein trampoline repl at least twice in a row before deciding it was starting slowly?
19:04	justin_smith	because if repl boots to user, that should start about as fast as a simple clojure.jar startup
19:04	kwladyka	Thank you all guys for good discussion. It is 1 am so i am going sleep. Goodnight!
19:07	tomjack	ah, twice, no
19:07	tomjack	thanks, I didn't wait for the first time to finish...
19:07	tomjack	(never heard of LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE)
19:10	justin_smith	tomjack: yeah, it basically sets up a cache for classpath, it works
19:11	justin_smith	tomjack: the one gotcha to "lein trampoline repl" is I've seen startup errors from initial namespace load (when my repl loads up to my namespace) fall through the cracks - the repl says it is in my namespace but my code isn't loaded with no error message
19:11	justin_smith	but if you expect to use user as your init ns, I can't think of a reason to ever not use trampoline
20:12	Kamuela	What's the preferred way to install Clojure on a Mac?
20:14	justin_smith	Kamuela: put leiningen in your ~/bin/lein
20:14	justin_smith	Kamuela: leiningen is a dependency manager and it will take care of everything else (it's a shell script)
20:15	justin_smith	Kamuela: you can also just download clojure.jar and run that via java (any jvm 1.6 or newer works)
20:16	pilne	after using lein, everything else just feels uncivilized >.< (well... rust, go, and stack (for haskell) actually feel pretty good too >.<)
20:17	justin_smith	yeah, lein is pretty amazing, pity about the startup time
20:17	justin_smith	but usually the startup time is worth it
20:17	justin_smith	pilne: fun fact, people complain about clojure startup time a lot, but usually they don't realize most of that startup time is just leiningen
20:18	pilne	yeah, but unlike the rest (i think) of the jvm langs, startup time is really only a "once per coding session" thing for clojure (:
20:18	justin_smith	it's true, clojure does dynamism pretty well
20:19	pilne	it's funny, every time i'm thrown a programming problem now, 9/10 times there's already a "good way" to do it in clojure, and if there isn't, someone far more capable than I is "almost there" lol
20:19	pilne	i feel like clojure is extremely pragmatic, like.. ridiculously so (:
20:20	justin_smith	a very special mix of pragmatic while being unafraid to be unconventional (if there is an unconventional solution that is simpler than the normal thing)
20:20	xyh	why when I copy my code into the REPL it runs fine,
20:20	xyh	but when I use 'lein run' to run it, or use 'clojure <file>' to run it,
20:20	xyh	it says 'StackOverflowError'
20:20	justin_smith	so you might need to spend some time learning some new concepts, but there's always a payoff
20:21	xyh	how is this possible ...
20:21	justin_smith	xyh: interesting, I'm wondering if maybe realizing things early due to printing in the repl might be preventing a concat bomb
20:21	pilne	eh, for me at least, lisp/scheme just felt like coming home, i've been mentally fighting OOP stuff in c++/java/python for years (as in, struggling to compose things elegantly in those langauges)
20:21	justin_smith	xyh: when nested concat calls get deep enough, it can blow the stack when you first read the value
20:22	justin_smith	xyh: but in a repl, it's common to realize things due to printing values
20:22	justin_smith	xyh: this might not be it, but it's the first thing I think of that would be different in a repl and lein run and cause a stack overflow
20:22	pilne	is there a way to tweak my default jvm (or the one for any clojure repl) to have massive stack/heap, just for... science?
20:23	justin_smith	pilne: yes, when you start the jvm you can tell it how big the stack and heap should go
20:23	justin_smith	pilne: :jvm-opts in a leiningen project.clj will be passed along
20:23	pilne	beautiful, tyvm
20:23	pilne	i should probably google more honestly though
20:23	justin_smith	:)
20:24	pilne	this nightcode/nightmode standalone clojure ide looks like something i should throw on a puppylinux usb stick... you know... again for science (:
20:25	Kamuela	pilne: I’m using that
20:26	Kamuela	and yeah I think I did do that lein thing, only problem is I think I used brew
20:26	Kamuela	Maybe I shouldn’t?
20:26	Kamuela	Only reason I ask is because I think clojure is still 1.6.0 for me and I’ve been trying to figure out how to upgrade
20:26	justin_smith	Kamuela: brew is good too, it's just newer and lein has more users
20:26	justin_smith	Kamuela: in each project you can decide what clojure version it uses
20:26	justin_smith	this is true if you use lein, boot, or even just clojure.jar
20:27	Kamuela	interesting, so 1.6.0 is probably just a target in a config file then
20:27	justin_smith	right
20:27	xyh	would you please try this :: https://www.refheap.com/113972
20:27	xyh	it should print the following two lines :
20:27	pilne	since it seems like i'm starting a collection of clojures, how far back should one go (i've got 1.7 and 1.8 now)
20:27	xyh	16
20:27	xyh	bye bye ^-^/
20:28	xyh	try copy (1) into REPL (2) run by 'clojure <file>'
20:28	xyh	* try (1) copy into REPL (2) run by 'clojure <file>'
20:30	Kamuela	ah i see, dependencies
20:31	justin_smith	xyh: it's getting a stack overflow error while compiling
20:32	xyh	ah!~
20:32	justin_smith	oh right, because it calls that thing at the top level, never mind
20:32	justin_smith	xyh: it says "compiling" but it is really in that bottom line
20:32	xyh	yes maybe due to JIT
20:33	justin_smith	no, there's no JIT here
20:33	justin_smith	xyh: it's true, if I run clojure.jar and give it that file, it blows up, but if I start a clojure.jar repl, then paste in the contents of the file into the terminal, it is fine
20:33	xyh	oh! have you tryed copy the code into REPL ?
20:33	xyh	yes
20:34	justin_smith	right, it works if you paste into a repl, and breaks when loading from the file
20:34	justin_smith	but it is definitely not a laziness issue
20:34	justin_smith	because you are not doing anything lazy here
20:36	justin_smith	xyh: one thing I am very suspicious of is your call to (recur) on line 67 - there is literally nothing other than an exception that will make that thing stop looping, right?
20:36	xyh	yes
20:37	xyh	because it is an interpreter
20:37	justin_smith	so that's your interpreter loop?
20:38	xyh	yes, one can view it this loop as 'return-stack interpreter'
20:38	xyh	* view this loop
20:43	justin_smith	xyh: change map tomapv on line 108 and it works
20:43	justin_smith	*to mapv
20:45	justin_smith	xyh: map is lazy, if you do not use the result it does not calculate a result, in a repl its result is getting realized as a side effect, when running the file directly the side effect does not happen, the laziness is not forced, and thus you have a lazy-bomb where you have too many layers of lazy ops to realize at once and your blow the stack
20:45	xyh	thank you justin_smith
20:45	justin_smith	xyh: mapv is not lazy, and thus you do some of the work ahead of time and don't blow the stack
20:45	justin_smith	xyh: np, laziness is weird and hard
20:46	justin_smith	xyh: it took a while to find your problem - that's seemingly the only place you are using laziness in the entire codebase, if you had used lazy functions in two places I wouldn't even know which one was the problem
20:46	justin_smith	haha
20:47	xyh	I will go learn more about map and mapv in the doc
20:48	justin_smith	xyh: it's not specific to map at all
20:48	justin_smith	xyh: it's about how lazy-seq works
20:49	xyh	oh my ... not in the doc ?
20:49	justin_smith	it is in the doc! the doc for lazy-seq
20:49	xyh	ok
20:49	justin_smith	but the specific issue is explained well in a blog from stuartsierra
20:49	justin_smith	one moment...
20:50	justin_smith	xyh: this is why I mentioned concat at first - it's the same problem, it's a thing about lazy-seq, but it's most commonly seen with usage of concat http://stuartsierra.com/2015/04/26/clojure-donts-concat
20:51	xyh	great :)
20:52	justin_smith	xyh: stuartsierra explains how concat causes this problem via lazy-seq, but map also uses lazy-seq so it's the same issue you saw, really
20:53	xyh	this is what I am doing, by the way :: https://github.com/cicada-language/threaded-code-interpreter
20:53	xyh	I have a clojure version now :: https://github.com/cicada-language/threaded-code-interpreter/tree/master/native-array-memory/clojure/interpreter
20:54	justin_smith	cool
20:54	justin_smith	I hope you enjoyed playing with clojure and got some hint of what you could learn from it
20:55	xyh	is there an OO framework in clojure ?
20:55	justin_smith	xyh: clojure compiles every function to jvm bytecode and you can directly access the jvm
20:56	justin_smith	also, yes, you can use OO features in clojure code (eg. defrecord, defprotocol)
20:56	justin_smith	but clojure stays pretty close to the features of the vm itself, which is implicitly OO
20:56	pilne	was the patch discussed in one of the links on that concat page ever implemented into core? or was it shrugged off?
20:56	justin_smith	xyh: I definitely understand your code much better when I read the OCaml version
20:57	xyh	yes, I like type system too
20:57	justin_smith	pilne: no idea, but as he mentions, any usage of lazy-seq can hit this problem
20:57	justin_smith	xyh: yeah, ml family is the platonic ideal of the type system for sure :)
20:59	pilne	true justin_smith, i guess it is just smarter to explicitly not mix a lazy-seq into an eager context
20:59	justin_smith	xyh: you use hash tables in the OCaml version, but don't use them in clojure where we even have a syntax literal for them
21:00	justin_smith	pilne: well, we at least have to be smart about the eager / lazy boundary, yes.
21:00	xyh	you mean primitive-function-record ?
21:01	justin_smith	xyh: in_host_name_record is the hash table in the OCaml version
21:01	Kamuela	the reason I’m liking clojure is because it’s so incredibly consistent with its syntax
21:02	xyh	justin_smith: in clojure it is (def name-jo-map (atom (hash-map)))
21:02	justin_smith	ahh, - the idiomatic version of (hash-map) is just {}
21:02	justin_smith	,(= (hash-map) {})
21:02	clojurebot	true
21:03	justin_smith	xyh: the hash-map function is only really used when the keys and vals are all in order in a collection and are not yet partitioned into two-element vectors
21:03	justin_smith	then we do (apply hash-map coll)
21:04	justin_smith	otherwise there is pretty much always a more straightforward alternative to calling hash-map
21:04	devn	im spacing out: is there a built-in for getting the value of the max key (assume keys are numbers) in a map?
21:04	xyh	I see
21:05	justin_smith	devn: (max-key key m)
21:05	justin_smith	,(apply max-key key {1 0 3 2 22 7})
21:05	clojurebot	[22 7]
21:05	justin_smith	well, clearly I forgot apply the first itme there
21:06	devn	justin_smith: lol, i think it's time i step away from the keyword
21:06	devn	keyboard* (see?)
21:06	devn	I was messing with max/min-key, and that usage pattern totally escaped me
21:06	devn	didn't think to use clojure.core/key
21:07	justin_smith	devn: now I want to find some useful one-line that uses max-key, key, and max
21:07	justin_smith	haha
21:07	justin_smith	,(apply max (apply max-key key {1 0 3 2 22 7}))
21:07	clojurebot	22
21:07	devn	justin_smith: yeah, it feels i dunno, weird
21:08	justin_smith	,(apply max (apply max-key key {1 0 3 2 22 420}))
21:08	clojurebot	420
21:08	justin_smith	lol, time to go home
21:08	devn	i think you might be able to make it worse...
21:09	pilne	Kamuela:: that is because of the whole "code is data" concept it brought from the lisp world, the syntax has to be consistent to enable easy parsing to make the magics happen (:
21:09	justin_smith	devn: hmm, how many clojure.core functions have the form x-y where x and y are also core functions?
21:10	devn	justin_smith: probably easy enough to discover with ns-publics
21:11	Kamuela	pilne: it’s great and my first lisp, the closest to functional I’ve experienced is JS with the new immutable/functional popular paradigms
21:13	justin_smith	,(->> 'clojure.core ns-publics keys (map name) (map #(clojure.string/split % #"-")) (filter #(> (count %) 1)) (filter #(every? (comp resolve symbol) (remove empty? %))))
21:13	clojurebot	(["chunk" "first"] ["when" "first"] ["find" "ns"] ["take" "last"] ["take" "nth"] ...)
21:13	justin_smith	devn: ^ answering my own question, lol
21:13	devn	you sonofa
21:13	devn	i was just about there
21:14	devn	im not peeking!
21:14	justin_smith	lol
21:14	devn	i might be way off, but i got 268
21:14	justin_smith	devn: I looked only in clojure.core, and only for things that had hyphens in them in the first place
21:14	devn	forgot to go distinct
21:15	devn	94
21:15	justin_smith	devn: in just clojure.core?
21:15	devn	yar
21:15	pilne	clojure wasn't the first language that really caught my eye when i got back into programming, but it is the one i keep coming back to, it and haskell have really caught my eye (although this startup little jvm language "lux" seems to be tempting me with the best of both those worlds >.<)
21:16	justin_smith	devn: my favorite ["cond" ">"] - I never read cond-> as two clojure functions separated by a hyphen before
21:18	devn	justin_smith: what about -> :D
21:18	justin_smith	haha
21:18	justin_smith	"" is not a clojure function
21:18	devn	my solution was so much more roundabout than yours
21:18	devn	it's making me ill
21:20	justin_smith	devn: it's OK, I'm about to go home and get really stoned and my code will be terrible
21:20	pilne	nah man
21:20	devn	,(let [split-up (group-by #(.contains % "-") (map (comp str first) (ns-publics 'clojure.core))) [with-hyphens without-hyphens] (map #(get split-up %) [true false])] (for [x with-hyphens :let [fs (clojure.string/split x #"-")] f fs :when (some #{f} without-hyphens)] [x f]))
21:20	clojurebot	(["restart-agent" "agent"] ["sort-by" "sort"] ["chunk-first" "chunk"] ["chunk-first" "first"] ["tree-seq" "seq"] ...)
21:20	pilne	it will just be really really really abstract
21:21	pilne	i feel like clojure offers me a lot of what i really like about haskell without the handcuffs of forced purity.
21:21	justin_smith	pilne: s/handcuffs/helmet
21:22	pilne	lol
21:22	justin_smith	(I say this as someone who never wears a helmet when riding his bicycle)
21:22	pilne	my first through was "hugging jacket"
21:22	justin_smith	but really, haskell is protecting you from somethign there
21:22	pilne	i agree it is protecting oneself, but it is also not trivial to fully grasp/apply how to "get around that protection in a safe way" (at least for me)
21:22	devn	I totally abuse clojure.core/for (for [x xs :let [ys (get x :ys)] y ys :when (some #{y} #{:a :b :c})] [x y])
21:23	devn	haskell is pretty rad. it's not my cup'o tea though, i'm afraid
21:24	pilne	same, i enjoy haskell like i enjoy theoretical physics, from an armchair with a bong and a beer...
21:24	devn	well, one of them is closer to actual science
21:25	devn	philip waddler in his talk at strangeloop last year said: "real sciences don't have to put 'science' in their names"
21:25	pilne	lol
21:25	justin_smith	haha, nice
21:25	devn	i've been having a lot of conversations with some knowledgable static typing enthusiasts these past few months. i've even seen a couple clojure people start to be drawn into the light
21:26	justin_smith	OK, actually leaving the office now
21:26	devn	justin_smith: come on back :)
21:28	pilne	eh, i'm more for dynamic with the option to static (via annotation or whatnot, as long as that annotation actually does some good at the compiler end...)
21:29	pilne	but with ghci and haskell, i don't mind the static requirement on types, just the whole mutable-monad-magic stuff still twists my noggin
21:49	stapler	hi! on clojars.org I don't see any spot for me to put my public key
21:49	stapler	and lein wants me to do that so i can throw stuff on clojars
22:36	justin_smith	stapler: have you created your account?
22:44	stapler	justin_smith: yes
22:50	justin_smith	stapler: wow, I can't find the public key upload in the current code...
22:50	justin_smith	*current site
22:50	stapler	bit broken, i know
22:55	justin_smith	stapler: yeah, looks like either a documentation bug or a functionality bug
23:30	TimMc	I wonder if that feature was disabled...
23:31	justin_smith	TimMc: they try to sign jars, so you'd think they would also host a copy of the public key that goes with it
23:33	zimablue	hey, does anyone know a good working example of boot with both a clojure backend and figwheel/browser repl?
23:34	zimablue	tenzing works for me but I don't know how to connect a backend to it