#clojure – 2016-01-06

2016-01-06

00:15	sdegutis	Do any of yall use components for /everything/ in your system?
02:59	BRODUS	anyone ever use the functions in cider-client.el? trying to understand why 'cider-nrepl-request:eval' only contains a session id in the callback...
03:21	owlbird	which web server has a better performance, I tried ring-jetty-adapter, but it was worse than Tomcat/Java.
03:42	kungi	owlbird: there is a clojure web server benchmark here: https://github.com/ptaoussanis/clojure-web-server-benchmarks
03:49	qsys	about transitioning from Java to Clojure: most, if not all, books and tutorials about Clojure spent a great deal about data structures, immutability, ... rather early. Java interop, classes, reification and such all come later. That scares Java devs quite often. So well, just an idea, wouldn't it be useful to have a book/tutorial/manual that starts with making classes etc in Clojure, and building up to data structures later?
03:50	qsys	Start from 'do it the Java-way in Clojure' and simplify it by introducing clojure concepts step by step?
03:50	TEttinger	qsys, good in principle, but bad for making good clojure code
03:51	TEttinger	you can use amap in place of map when using arrays instead of vectors, but... it will be uglier
03:51	TEttinger	clojure the clojure way tends to be vastly shorter than clojure the java way or java the java way
03:51	qsys	Yeah, it's true it's not good clojure code, but it's about learning.
03:52	TEttinger	but... learning bad ways is not good
03:52	qsys	allright... better than not learning at all?
03:53	owlbird	For my experience (a Java programmer) to learn Clojure, should get used to write little method, combining them with 'apply/map/reduce/filter...'
03:53	qsys	right - bad Java code is kind a commonplace (and accepted)
03:54	qsys	the thing is: if it's very different from what people know, most of them don't have the courage to continue the 'learning process'
03:54	TEttinger	I'd rather have java people program in java using clojure-like libs. https://github.com/rschmitt/dynamic-object and https://github.com/rschmitt/collider for example
03:55	qsys	Starting from what people know might help some people out
03:55	BRODUS	the clojure way kind of expects you to keep the java interop to a minimum.
03:55	TEttinger	those two libs might be a good starting point to introduce clojure syntax etc
03:56	owlbird	But Clojure is a little slower than java, and the tech leader has no reason to choose a worse performance language
03:57	TEttinger	it depends, it can be drastically faster to write
03:57	qsys	so, rather than starting 'java code in clojure', starting coding like clojure in java :p. Might be fun :)
03:58	BRODUS	i may be wrong but I think scala kind of expects you to use both scala and java
03:58	mpenet	owlbird: by that logic we'd all be doing assembly
03:58	qsys	well, little slower, don't know about that... might be, sometimes. I don't worry about that: bad java code might be much slower/less stable than good clojure code
03:58	owlbird	I saw a lot of performance comparison, if a Java programmer want a better language, why don't choose Scala or Nginx/luajit
03:58	TEttinger	because nginx isn't a language
03:58	owlbird	which is more practical
03:58	mpenet	owlbird: if it makes his team 10x more productive for 5% perfs hit (random value) he'd jump ship
03:59	owlbird	Nginx is not, bug openresty does
03:59	owlbird	but
03:59	qsys	I only know: I don't have the instability/performance problems many of my collegues have
04:00	qsys	I use clojure code (although I shouldn't, 'cause it's not allowed, since it's not Java, but so far, I could defend myself by saying I'm using 'Java technology', since it runs on the JVM)
04:01	qsys	Some wanted to learn clojure, but the moment I start talking about data structures, immutability, etc, most of them just see the point anymore - it's just too far from what they know to be 'true'
04:03	qsys	so I was planning to make a kind of crash course, but well, I can't jump in clojure like that... it should be 'from what they know up to clojure'
04:04	noncom\|2	BRODUS: no, scala does not actually... it can replace java
04:04	qsys	scala can replace Java, like Ceylon, or like Kotlin (which even has a 'java to kotlin converter' built-in)
04:04	algernon	qsys: I'd like to disagree. I held a two-day clojure crash course for C# developers last year, and started with data structures, clojure benefits, etc. So not with what they already knew and were familiar with. First day we did stuff the Clojure way only. Second day, we had some idiomatic C# -> idiomatic Clojure exercises.
04:05	algernon	qsys: it was a huge success, despite half of the team being very scpetic about clojure, lisp and the JVM up front.
04:06	qsys	allright... maybe it works in a crash course. I only know it doesn't work when I just have to explain 'on-the-fly'. So, well, I probably just have to try :p
04:06	algernon	qsys: if your developers are open to new ideas, starting at idiomatic clojure works suprisingly well. if they're not, well, it won't work either way :P
04:06	algernon	qsys: yeah, on the fly explanation is hard. never managed to sell clojure that way, either
04:07	qsys	well... there's a condition there :p. It's not only the devs - let's say about half of them is open to new ideas - but it's even more about tech leads, architects and well, managers, that are extremely afraid of 'new ideas'
04:08	mpenet	from my exp. they need to dig into a new project 100% in clojure, and build from there, trying to mix things up at the beginning is hard.
04:08	powered	java developers don't see the point of immutability?
04:09	qsys	Anyway, just giving it a try and jump right into clojure in a crash course might work. I'm curious how this will be...
04:09	mpenet	I mentored a team in a large company doing critical stuff (satellite related), they were producing quite good code after a dozen days or so, and were very impressed with the language.
04:09	algernon	perhaps I'm lucky, but I never found that to be a problem. showing big names recruiting clojure programmers convinced all managers I had to deal with. tech leads listened to reason, and to devs saying "we want to go with these stuff"
04:09	qsys	powered: well, some do, some don't, some others don't really know what you talk about. That's the bad thing these days: they learn 'frameworks', not coding, or paradigms, or ...
04:10	algernon	(that = tech leads, architects, managers)
04:10	noncom\|2	powered: it's not about immutability.. there comes the whole "another language" thing with "oh my it's lisp" thing
04:11	noncom\|2	and most programmers that i worked with were so brainwashed by oop that immutability was an almost unexisting concept for them
04:11	noncom\|2	coz objects have state, you know..
04:11	qsys	true...
04:11	powered	the string type is immutable in java, so they should at least be familiar with the concept
04:11	qsys	noncom\|2: that's the thing: they call Java oop, no mather how non-oop they are doing :p
04:12	noncom\|2	oh yeah :) and when trying to solve oop shortcommings, they just apply more oop
04:12	mpenet	functional programming/immutability isn't hard really. You just manage state differently but it's way easier to learn that how to do OOP in a not awful way
04:12	mpenet	base concepts are very simple
04:12	powered	it's all about applying them in the right way
04:13	qsys	mpenet: true, not difficult, but it is for people that are brainwashed. They only know 1 paradigm... and that is the only true one, for them.
04:13	noncom\|2	mpenet: it is, scientifically, but real world programmers are not always about science..
04:15	mpenet	I am not sure, yes, it's different and requires to let some experience behind, but knowing oop doesn't make it much harder really. Programming is about knowing algos/ds and so on, not much about how to code in [insert language].
04:16	noncom\|2	theoretically yes. in practice it comes down to neuroplasticity, bias, age, self, and other biological factors
04:16	mpenet	some people are a bit frustrated at the beginning because they're used to do it another way, but (from my exp), they get over it quickly
04:17	noncom\|2	well those are lucky who are open-minded :)
04:18	qsys	lucky, and well, sometimes unlucky ;)
04:21	abunuwas	~@i-blis
04:21	clojurebot	Huh?
04:23	qsys	mpenet: to me, programming is about knowing as much paradigms as possible. The more you know, the better you can solve problems, the cleaner you right code... I personally don't care about language, or features.
04:25	qsys	anyway, I take it as a challenge to jump right into clojure for a clojure crash course :p
04:28	owlbird	programming is about earning money, which depends on business mostly, and a couple of languages, Java is more easy to learn and to hire a newbee ;)
04:28	owlbird	It's not fancy, but it works well
04:30	noncom\|2	yeah, to me commercial programming is often like coal mining
04:32	qsys	lol
04:32	BRODUS	noncom\|2: you should say that to a coal miner
04:34	qsys	owlbird: I don't consider 'good' Java easy to learn, and even harder to learn to good clojure... probably because of all the Java-junk on the web, in books etc. But true, it's easy to hire a brainless Java-code-monkey, who lets his ide vomit code that's very susceptible to bad performance and instability :).
04:38	owlbird	qsys: There were too many java courses and frameworks, Spring / Play, even a people who don't know much about programming can do the works by watching samples. Yes, the performance is awful some times, but business is changing too fast.
04:40	mpenet	people were saying the same about c/c++ when java came out :)
04:40	owlbird	Sometimes, I think nginx, luajit is more suitable to build a prototype, which is also fast to develop and run. by building code into a yum package, it's also to maintain different versions.
04:41	qsys	yes, and that's the problem: when someting changes, it takes 'ages' to adopt. Real-life example: A few years ago, I got a request from another team to change something in their code. It was a translation into french, 1 sentence had to change somewhere in a properties file. The programmer that had to do that, estimated that it would take 1 day to do that.
04:41	mpenet	(or asp/php/perl for web thingies)
04:43	qsys	It took me about 1 hour to import the project, 25 seconds to change the sentence, 30 minutes to take out a few errors in the code and 25 minutes to rebuild the project :p - and it took another 3 weeks before it was released, due to the 'release cycle'. That's, sadly, the way things are programmed very often...
04:43	qsys	and that's the only truth for many.
04:45	qsys	... but that's not about clojure, and since this is channel #clojure and not #whining, I'd better stop whining about it :p.
04:46	powered	25 minutes to rebuild because it's so much code, or because people push code with compiler errors in it?
04:47	qsys	more about too much code: too much useless code, no errors, loads of warnings etc.
04:48	owlbird	I have seen enough stupid codes from another team, and the programmers are struggling everyday.... but their business is growing 300% every year, how can you blame them " What a stupid code"? TAT
04:51	qsys	owlbird: I agree with you... if they grow 300%/year, it's fine with me. I don't blame them (although I wouldn't be satisfied if the code is instable and not performant, but that's personnal). However, if they grow 300%, they might be able to grow 400%/year if the code would be less messy?
04:52	mpenet	It's all theorical bs really, I have seen "capable" outsourced teams of java devs kill a well funded project over time.
04:53	mpenet	it's very dependant on the context and many other factors
04:56	mpenet	Growing toxic code is never good. Can win you some time at the beginning but you almost always end up paying a high price
04:59	schmir	dammit. I've got 400k lines of toxic RosiSQL code that should be reimplemented. my life sucks.
05:03	qsys	schmir: ;)
06:25	ridcully_	schmir: that's a whole lotta rosi
06:41	t0by	ridcully_ wins one internets
06:43	schmir	ridcully_: yes, but at least I'm using clojure for the new implementation
08:22	juanjo	yesterday i was able to compile clojure, thanks!
08:22	juanjo	how can i run the compiled version of it instead the system installed one?
08:24	juanjo	java -cp clojure-${VERSION}.jar clojure.main
08:24	juanjo	sorry, it was in the readme :/
09:26	jsabeaudry	Can this be written better https://www.refheap.com/113414 ?
09:34	vijaykiran	jsabeaudry: what does sub return ?
09:37	jsabeaudry	vijaykiran, my guess would be the publication, let me check
09:39	jsabeaudry	vijaykiran, I was wrong, it returns the channel that was just subscribed
10:10	sdegutis_	Hallo.
10:18	hiron	I'm having issues using with clojure.tools.namespace.repl/refresh. If I add a defn to my core.clj file and call refresh in my cider-repl, the new function is not available at the previously required namespace. Any thoughts?
10:21	sdegutis_	justin_smith: how heavily are you using component?
10:23	favetelinguis	i have Java 8, latest stable clojure and leningen installed on my arch linux system but when im trying to use incanter charts only empty windows open up, what library do i need to install to get the plots working with incanter?
10:24	ridcully_	that _could_ be a problem with your window manager
10:26	favetelinguis	i use xmonad
10:27	ridcully_	have a websearch about "non reparenting wm java swing" - if this brings nothing up, i can put my script up on refheap
10:27	sdegutis_	Lately I want to use i3, but that's probably because I'm just so dang tired of the plain-jane OS X UI...
10:28	ridcully_	it basically to lie about the familiy of window manager you are using to make java render anything
10:29	Bronsa	ridcully_: FYI refheap is shutting down
10:29	Bronsa	might be read-only already
10:29	ridcully_	yeah, heard about it here. thanks for the info
10:29	sdegutis_	Bronsa: why?
10:29	sdegutis_	Bronsa: I thought it was really cool
10:31	Bronsa	sdegutis_: people started uploading stolen credit card infos or something like that and Raynes doesn't have the time to deal with that IIRC
10:31	sdegutis_	ahh yeah that'll do it
10:48	favetelinguis	ridcully_: seems to be a known issue with xmonad, thanks for the pointer
10:51	ridcully_	favetelinguis: no only with xmonad. you found the workarounds?
10:53	favetelinguis	might, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/30742662/java-swing-gui-not-displaying-in-xmonad
10:53	engblom	ridcully_: Try 'export SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN=gen' before using your JVM apps
10:54	engblom	ridcully_: Since adding that to my configuration I have never had any problem with xmonad
10:55	ridcully_	engblom: i dont run xmonad - i use some script where the source is maybe burried in my git log. most likely wmname
11:28	TimMc	Bronsa: I talked with him and he said that it's not being taken down, just made read-only, which is great.
11:28	jsabeaudry	So if I understand correctly I can never put nil on a channel because consumer will think the channel is closed?
11:29	Bronsa	TimMc: ah, good
11:35	ridcully_	jsabeaudry: yes. documented e.g. here https://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/put!
11:39	jsabeaudry	ridcully_, ah, yes indeed! thanks!
11:53	domgetter	what's the reverse of mapcat? What will take a sequence and turn it into a sequence of subsequences?
11:53	justin_smith	domgetter: partition? partition-all? split-with?
11:53	domgetter	I'm trying to take a list of words and shove them into subsequences that represent rows of words when displayed
11:54	domgetter	I'll look into those three, thank you :)
11:55	domgetter	are any of those stateful with respect to the currect accumulating subsequence?
11:55	justin_smith	no
11:56	justin_smith	you can use reduce or loop for that though
11:56	domgetter	okay I'll just build my own then, thank you
12:10	domgetter	justin_smith: thanks for the advice. I got it up and running: https://gist.github.com/domgetter/2939fd3f5c45fd082a25
12:11	justin_smith	domgetter: cool - it might be easier / more efficient if instead of repeatedly pop/conj acc if it's not full, you have a two collection accumulator
12:11	justin_smith	(defn rows [[full pending] word] ...)
12:12	justin_smith	so instead of of pop at each step, you can just conj to pending / or conj to full and pass [] as pending
12:12	domgetter	okay I think I understand. I'll go ruminate on it and see if I can come up with a result
12:13	justin_smith	domgetter: also, you use (last acc) and (pop acc) - if it's a vector always use pop, last is O(n), peek is much faster
12:13	justin_smith	err, always use peek too, that is
12:13	justin_smith	,(peek [1 2 3])
12:13	clojurebot	3
12:14	domgetter	ah okay. got it. obligatory "why don't they just make last efficient for vectors?" :P
12:15	justin_smith	domgetter: yeah, last uses the seq interface rather than having it's own interface
12:15	justin_smith	it would need its own interface for that to work
12:17	domgetter	Hmm, for the destructuring to work, "full" would have to be all the rows up to the last one, and pending would always be the last one. Is there a way to do a rest parameter that would work like butlast ?
12:17	justin_smith	domgetter: nope, that's why I suggested splitting it in two parts like that
12:17	domgetter	oh you mean maintaining it in that structure til the end manually?
12:18	domgetter	or did you mean have "pending" be its own vector just chilling until I shove it into full?
12:18	domgetter	that makes a lot more sense
12:20	justin_smith	(defn rows [[full pending] word] (if (> (apply + (count word) (map count pending)) 35) [(conj full pending) [word]] [full (conj pending word)]))
12:21	justin_smith	domgetter: right, maintaining that structure for every step - which means you need to do a conj at the end after reduce is done, or (apply conj (reduce ...))
12:21	domgetter	awesome, thanks for the insight :)
12:21	justin_smith	domgetter: also see how I was able to combine your two sums into one apply +
12:21	sdegutis_	What's the benefit of using type hints? What's the downside of not using them? When should they be used?
12:22	domgetter	yea I saw that, that makes more sense. I was being a lot more procedural
12:22	justin_smith	sdegutis_: 100x perf difference when they are needed is not unheard of
12:22	sdegutis_	I've mostly been putting them in places to satisfy `lein check` but it feels a bit random and ad-hoc.
12:22	sdegutis_	justin_smith: wow...
12:22	justin_smith	sdegutis_: clojure knows when compiling whether it's outputting expensive runtime reflection ops
12:23	justin_smith	sdegutis_: that's why lein check can warn you - it's a hook that tells you when that happens
12:23	justin_smith	sdegutis_: and the reflection is very expensive
12:24	justin_smith	sdegutis_: I've even seen differences more like 1000x (in cases that involve not only reflection but also numeric boxing...)
12:26	domgetter	justin_smith: the only "downside" is that I have to do a final conjoin after the reduce since I have a trailing pending vector
12:26	justin_smith	domgetter: right, like I said, (apply conj (reduce ...))
12:26	domgetter	oh, you were one step ahead
12:27	justin_smith	domgetter: I've done this before :)
12:30	sdegutis_	justin_smith: oh wow, then I'll definitely look for hot code paths in `lein check` and fix those
12:31	domgetter	justin_smith: much better! https://gist.github.com/domgetter/2939fd3f5c45fd082a25
12:31	justin_smith	sdegutis_: best value is probably a combination of lein check to see where the reflection is happening, and a profiler so you know what the hot path is
12:31	sdegutis_	justin_smith: hmm interesting concept
12:32	Bronsa	setting unchecked-math to :warn-on-boxed is also really useful
12:32	justin_smith	definitely
12:33	sdegutis_	Nice, only 33 reflection warnings. And none of them in hot code paths.
12:33	sdegutis_	Bronsa: whoa, definitely gonna set that one
12:33	Bronsa	although it doesn't catch all the boxing cases
12:34	justin_smith	Bronsa: is there a good guide to finding numeric boxing that unchecked-math :warn-on-boxed would not catch?
12:34	Bronsa	justin_smith: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1585 this is the only case I'm aware of
12:35	Bronsa	I really dislike how clojure does automatic boxing/unboxing, I wish it didn't
12:35	Bronsa	I'd rather use (Integer. x) and (int x)
12:36	Bronsa	also sometimes type hints work for unboxing, sometimes they don't. I think they should never and the only way to unbox should be using the casting functions
12:36	Bronsa	but it's probably way too late to even propose such a change
12:39	sdegutis_	It's never too late!
12:40	justin_smith	sdegutis_: clojure values back-compatibility, having to use (Integer. x) / (int x) explicitly would break so much code...
12:44	Bronsa	yeah like, 80% of code that uses interop
12:45	justin_smith	but oxlang could totally go that route
12:46	sdegutis_	oxlang!?
12:47	sdegutis_	arrdem: that looks fricken cool
12:47	sdegutis_	arrdem: do you use it in production yet?
13:04	sdegutis_	Why does clojure.data.csv take a writer rather than just returning a string? Or at least why doesn't it have a variant that just returns a string?
13:05	justin_smith	sdegutis_: returning a writer rather than a string is one of those marks of distinction that differentiates a gentleman api dev from the hoi paloi
13:06	justin_smith	sdegutis_: j/k I have no idea honestly
13:06	sdegutis_	:D
13:07	justin_smith	sdegutis_: (java.io.StringWriter.) is simple enough to make at least, maybe they don't want to force the intermediate string form for csv's that are bigger than RAM
13:07	justin_smith	sdegutis_: actually, now that I think about it, it must be that case: a writer can handle a csv bigger than RAM, generating a string breaks well before RAM is even full
13:07	justin_smith	there's a max string size
13:08	sdegutis_	Sure, but now I have a 3 line function in my codebase in its own util namespace whereas I could delete it if this lib came with the 3 line function itself.
13:12	justin_smith	sdegutis: something like (let [s (java.io.StringWriter.)] (read-csv file s) (str s)) ?
13:12	sdegutis	yeah that's what I have
13:13	sdegutis	well, close: (defn csv-to-string [csv & opts] (let [out (java.io.StringWriter.)] (apply write-csv out csv opts) (str out)))
13:13	sdegutis	the apply is cuz it takes pseudo-mappified opts
14:22	catern	how would I get an atomic set datastructure?
14:22	catern	just put it in an atom?
14:22	mikerod	catern: (atom #{})
14:22	mikerod	I guess I don't know what you mean actually
14:23	mikerod	#{} is thread safe
14:23	mikerod	every modification just returns a new one, you don't affect the original
14:23	mikerod	if you want one though that multiple things refer to, then yes (atom {})
14:23	mikerod	(atom #{})
14:24	mikerod	with atomic update
14:24	catern	hmm
14:25	catern	what i really want is, I have some threads handling incoming data, and they check if a tag in the data is in a seen-set, and if it isn't in the seen-set they add it and start a new thread to start doing a thing
14:25	catern	is there a better way to do that than an atomic set?
14:26	catern	an (atom #{})
14:28	justin_smith	catern: note that if you want only one thread to take the action, you can't just deref and swap as separate actions
14:29	mikerod	justin_smith: yes, I was thinking of that
14:29	mikerod	but if you are just conjoining some value to a set
14:29	justin_smith	catern: and swap! retries, which means you probably don't want to put the launch of that action into the swapping function
14:29	mikerod	and you aren't concerned about it being conjoined more than once
14:29	justin_smith	mikerod: sure
14:30	justin_smith	catern: how big a problem is it if accidentally more than one thread gets started?
14:30	mikerod	if you want to be able to see the set and conj to it atomically, you'd use some transaction based construcdt I guess
14:30	justin_smith	mikerod: or use something like an agent that synchronizes on its value (but runs async)
14:30	justin_smith	and thus does not swap
14:30	justin_smith	s/swap/retry
14:31	mikerod	sure, I really don't have a ton of real-world experience with these things - so I'm learning at this point on what is best for these situations
14:32	mikerod	I think the the (atom #{}) solution is nice if you aren't concerned with retries and don't mind if you are conj'ing a value that was already conj'ed there after you derefed it
14:32	catern	justin_smith: well, what will actually happen if it's not in the seen-set is a websocket will be opened corresponding to that tag, and then the data that comes in on that websocket will be put in a datastructure somewhere
14:32	catern	justin_smith: so I don't want to open that websocket twice or create that datastructure twice
14:33	justin_smith	catern: right
14:33	mikerod	now I think the (atom #{}) way isn't good then
14:33	justin_smith	catern: since agents don't retry, it might make sense to use an agent and send-off, then await the agent and see if you need to start your thread or not
14:34	justin_smith	or spawn the thread from inside the send-off actually (that would be best I think)
14:34	mikerod	it is weird to me you'd need to do something async for this
14:34	mikerod	not to say I know the best/better way
14:35	neoncontrails	I just realized, I still haven't contributed to an open source project yet. (Other than my own.)
14:35	neoncontrails	Is there a bulletin board somewhere of Clojure projects seeking volunteers?
14:35	catern	i have too much incoming data to do it synchronously
14:35	neoncontrails	Or is Git my best bet?
14:35	catern	the "threads handling incoming data and opening websockets" are actually polling an API, and each request is too slow for me to wait for it to complete before sending the next request
14:36	justin_smith	mikerod: it has to do with the semantics for atoms vs. agents - agent operations are async, atom operations are synchronous - I don't have a good summary for the reasons handy atm but there are good reasons
14:36	mikerod	justin_smith: I know that part
14:36	justin_smith	oh, OK
14:37	mikerod	I just thought there was something synchronous that allowed you to view a value + do something based on it + update it in one lock
14:37	mikerod	if that makes sense
14:37	catern	(oh, when you said do something async you were talking about the agent way rather than the atom way. nvm)
14:37	mikerod	catern: yes, sorry
14:37	justin_smith	mikerod: not without retries
14:38	mikerod	justin_smith: yeah, I meant to mention that one
14:38	mikerod	"do something side-effecty"
14:38	justin_smith	yeah
14:38	BRODUS	neoncontrails: i normally contribute to stuff organically. I end up using open source libraries or read open-source code while doing my projects and when I find something I can fix I do it.
14:40	neoncontrails	BRODUS: Hmm. There must be some resource besides git though, no? Or a way to browse git for repos actively seeking contributors?
14:41	BRODUS	neoncontrails: there was a link on HN recently you might like, i'll try and find it
14:42	neoncontrails	BRODUS: I do love HN. Thanks
14:42	catern	justin_smith: i'm worried about the send-off being delayed, though
14:42	catern	i want to create the websocket ASAP because data is being dropped on the floor as long as I don't have it open
14:42	justin_smith	neoncontrails: lein has issues that are marked as specifically good for newcomers to work on, and is very open to contributions
14:42	catern	(this is for a programming game)
14:43	BRODUS	neoncontrails: ah it was this http://up-for-grabs.net/#/ , no clojure projects though
14:43	justin_smith	catern: it will be delayed if another send-off is still running
14:43	neoncontrails	justin_smith: oh, wow. lein itself, eh? I'll look into it
14:43	catern	justin_smith: i mean, those are implementation details though
14:43	catern	it's not necessarily that I want to do it synchronously
14:43	catern	i just want to do it fast
14:44	justin_smith	neoncontrails: there's also crossclj.info that lets you see which projects are most visible/used by other projects, which has links to source etc. might be helpful for finding where to jump in
14:44	catern	scheduled immediately
14:44	catern	(in practice I'm sure it's fine for my application to just let it be scheduled "whenever" since "whenever" is probably very soon, but...)
14:44	justin_smith	catern: sure, then if your other send-off actions are things that return quickly it will be fine. All it does is check a key, conditionally conj and start a thread, right?
14:45	neoncontrails	BRODUS: still a nice list, thanks for sharing
14:45	justin_smith	catern: other than indeterminacy that would be the same as that effecting any new thread already, the only issue is other send-off events, and you have 100% control of how quickly those return
14:45	neoncontrails	justin_smith: also a great suggestion. Thanks for the help
14:46	justin_smith	catern: in fact you should only have one kind of send-off event, run as often as needed: check for key, if not present spawn thread and conj
14:46	justin_smith	if that sequence of actions is a bottleneck of any sort, you are writing some amazing high performance code I tell you hwat
14:47	catern	heh
14:47	catern	well, creating/opening the websocket might take a bit of time...
14:47	justin_smith	catern: right, do that in a new thread
14:47	justin_smith	not in the agent
14:48	catern	btw
14:48	catern	what should I use to make async HTTP requests in Clojure? and async websockets?
14:48	justin_smith	catern: I use http-kit, and the sente lib which maps websockets to core.async
14:49	catern	just clientside btw
14:49	justin_smith	I haven't tried http-kit for client-side websockets though
14:49	justin_smith	but iirc that exists, if not aleph can do it
14:52	catern	aleph? why not use sente?
14:52	justin_smith	catern: sente uses aleph or http-kit
14:53	justin_smith	aleph and http-kit do the websocket part, sente hooks it up nicely to core.async
14:54	justin_smith	ztellman has an alternative called manifold that does similar to sente (connecting websockets, vanilla tcp, input-streams, core.async in various configurations to one another)
14:57	catern	hmm, sente appears to assume you control both ends?
14:57	catern	server and client
14:57	justin_smith	catern: yeah, it's kind of frameworky
14:57	justin_smith	manifold is more flexible
14:58	catern	but aleph would be the part actually doing the websocket part
14:58	catern	afaics http-kit doesn't have websocket client support
14:59	justin_smith	'k
15:00	justin_smith	yeah, looks like it only has server support, and lately I don't think it's as well maintained as aleph either
15:01	catern	aleph has http too
15:01	catern	so I guess I'll just use that for everything
15:01	catern	normal http*
15:05	catern	so, wait, I can't really tell
15:05	catern	http://ideolalia.com/aleph/literate.html#aleph.examples.http
15:05	catern	how do I get callback-style thing?
15:05	catern	get a*
15:07	justin_smith	catern: if you go down to the http/get examples, instead of specifying a callback, you chain operations on the dereferenced result
15:07	justin_smith	hmm... maybe there is a way to do a callback too though
15:07	catern	yeah, I saw that, but that's not what I want, I think
15:08	catern	since, well, right now my architecture is to fire off HTTP a bunch of requests every fraction of a second
15:08	catern	fire off a bunch of HTTP requests
15:09	justin_smith	catern: did you get down to the aleph.examples.websocket stuff at the bottom?
15:09	catern	i don't want to have to wait for any or all of them to complete before firing off the next
15:10	catern	justin_smith: yeah, I can't really grasp what's going on, but I can only assume that I can register some callbacks maybe
15:11	justin_smith	catern: I think bus/subscribe is the thing you want there, from skimming that code
15:11	justin_smith	catern: I'm interested myself as I may want to upgrade from http-kit/sente to aleph/manifold...
15:16	catern	this is quite complex
15:17	justin_smith	catern: might be easier to just use the direct socket with socket i/o, then upgrade if you need the features
15:17	justin_smith	catern: the more I work on my websocket connected app the more sense those features make...
15:20	catern	the direct websocket or TCP socket?
15:20	justin_smith	websocket
15:21	catern	i can't even tell what the features are here
15:22	catern	this doesn't look any better than wrapping synchronous actions in some async thing
15:22	catern	anyway, operating on the direct socket would be synchronous, right?
15:23	lokien	Hey, I'm processing a string with recursion. Each time I process a letter, I have to update a vector, based on that letter and last item on the vector. How do I do that? I'm struggling with immutability here
15:23	justin_smith	catern: depends, you could use nio
15:23	justin_smith	lokien: are you processing a sequence of some sort start to end?
15:24	lokien	justin_smith: yeah
15:24	justin_smith	if so, reduce
15:24	lokien	let me show you what'd be my input and desired output
15:24	justin_smith	,(reduce (fn [letters letter] (update letters letter (fnil inc 0))) {} "hello")
15:24	clojurebot	{\h 1, \e 1, \l 2, \o 1}
15:24	lokien	"next prev next next" -> [0 1 0 1 2]
15:25	lokien	(vector is 0 initially)
15:25	lokien	"" -> [0]
15:26	catern	justin_smith: wait so is this websocket support all just borrowed from some java library?
15:26	ridcully_	,(frequencies "hello")
15:26	clojurebot	{\h 1, \e 1, \l 2, \o 1}
15:27	justin_smith	ridcully_: right :) just showing the general idea of how to do that with reduce
15:27	lokien	ridcully_: I know, but.. how does that help?
15:28	ridcully_	lokien: that was to make justin_smith smile
15:28	lokien	ridcully_: oh, well, you're a nice person
15:29	TimMc	lokien: If I give you an accumulator [0 1] and an operation "next", how would you write (fn [accum operation] ...) to give me back [0 1 2]?
15:29	TimMc	besides (constantly [0 1 2]) ;-)
15:29	justin_smith	,,(reduce (fn [moves word] (conj moves (({"next" inc "prev" dec} word) (peek moves)))) [0] (clojure.string/split "next prev next next" #" "))
15:29	clojurebot	[0 1 0 1 2]
15:31	justin_smith	,(reductions (fn [move word] (({"next" inc "prev" dec} word) move)) 0 (clojure.string/split "next prev next next" #" "))
15:31	clojurebot	(0 1 0 1 2)
15:31	justin_smith	simpler, I think
15:32	lokien	I tried to do it with "loop"
15:32	lokien	but it was a nightmare
15:33	justin_smith	lokien: yeah - that's why my first question was "are you visiting items in order from some source" - reduce / reductions handle the defaults for that nicely
15:34	justin_smith	and unlike map / for, they carry state you can use at future steps
15:34	lokien	justin_smith: idiomatic clojure is so good, my clojure is awful tho
15:34	justin_smith	lokien: the solution is to write more clojure - and share your code with other clojure folks
15:35	sdegutis	the level of indirection in duct is really confusing me... https://github.com/weavejester/duct/blob/master/duct/src/duct/component/endpoint.clj
15:35	justin_smith	my clojure was terrible when I started, it's maybe acceptable now
15:35	lokien	justin_smith: primarily with you, I guess
15:35	lokien	acceptable?
15:35	lokien	writing code for entire irc?
15:35	lokien	are you serious? :D
15:35	justin_smith	heh, that's just one-liner examples, building real stuff is different
15:36	lokien	even more demanding? ygh
15:37	sdegutis	lol justin_smith "maybe acceptable"
15:37	justin_smith	lokien: the one liners and examples here are kind of like that forms in a martial art, or scales in music - they can help you understand something, but aren't much on their own, there's the actual craft side of it too, and I have far to go
15:38	lokien	even sdegutis says you're beyond "acceptable"!
15:38	justin_smith	like, I still have yet to hit the "build a useful lib that has nothing in it I am embarrassed of" landmark
15:38	sdegutis	lokien: "even sdegutis" lol
15:38	sdegutis	justin_smith: that goal is literally impossible due to the 6-months rule
15:39	lokien	justin_smith: for how long have you been in clojure family?
15:39	lokien	sdegutis: welp, you're good too
15:39	justin_smith	lokien: I've been using clojure for ... about 4 years?
15:39	sdegutis	hey me too!
15:39	justin_smith	sdegutis: OIC http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0865561/
15:39	lokien	sdegutis: I saw you on hacker news, is paladin usable now?
15:39	sdegutis	lokien: wha?
15:40	sdegutis	lokien: i was on HN?
15:40	lokien	sdegutis: you were commenting
15:40	sdegutis	oh
15:41	lokien	justin_smith: that's not 20 years!
15:41	lokien	I mean, you don't have to have a killer app/lib yet
15:41	sdegutis	lokien: haha no paladin probably wont be usable until 2017 at this rate.. this is my first attempt at writing a bytecode-based vm and bytecode compiler
15:41	lokien	sdegutis: damn, I wanted to try it
15:42	sdegutis	lokien: haha get in line ;)
15:42	sdegutis	(aka: i wanna try it too!)
15:43	lokien	sdegutis: only if I could help
15:43	lokien	justin_smith: where would I use "loop" form then?
15:44	TEttinger	sdegutis: making a language eh? clojuresque?
15:44	justin_smith	lokien: where speed is your top priority, it can be faster
15:45	sdegutis	TEttinger: heh i wouldnt go so far as to say "making".. more like "dreaming of" at this rate lol
15:45	justin_smith	lokien: especially when your source of data is not a sequence, but maybe a channel or a socket etc.
15:45	justin_smith	sdegutis: you should just do a fork of oxcart
15:45	TEttinger	is that arrdem's?
15:45	sdegutis	TEttinger: but yeah im seein if i can make a bytecode based compiler and vm written in pure & portable c that has only immutable clojure-like values and clojure-like sytnax
15:45	justin_smith	yeah
15:46	lokien	justin_smith: thanks
15:46	TEttinger	ha, portable C
15:46	justin_smith	sdegutis: how many years do you have set aside to do hash-maps?
15:46	TEttinger	that one always makes me chuckle
15:46	sdegutis	justin_smith: haha wait i dont get it
15:47	justin_smith	sdegutis: I mean, do you plan to take 2 years implementing hash-maps, maybe 4 or 5?
15:47	TEttinger	"portable if you have a windows, mac, linux 32-bit, and linux 64-bit computer to compile on"
15:47	sdegutis	justin_smith: heh yeah i thought hash maps were simple until i started reading about how clojure implements them
15:47	sdegutis	justin_smith: so i guess 2017 is reasonable to have "efficient" hashmaps by :D
15:47	justin_smith	especially since you are also writing your own gc last I heard
15:47	TEttinger	there are HAMT implementations in C
15:48	TEttinger	CHAMP is optimized for the JVM
15:48	sdegutis	justin_smith: oh yeah the gc is the easy part afaiui
15:48	TEttinger	tell that to google
15:48	sdegutis	i didnt say efficient/fast gc lol
15:48	TEttinger	dalvik's GC is awful compared to hotspt
15:49	sdegutis	im not aiming to compete with the jvm, im just trying to get something that would be cool for command line scripts.. something like lua
15:49	TEttinger	ah cool
15:49	sdegutis	(in terms of performance)
15:49	TEttinger	yeah I had a similar goal with my attempt at a language
15:49	sdegutis	how did it go?
15:49	sdegutis	did you finish it?
15:49	TEttinger	it went pretty well, I did not finish it, luajit is a kickass thing to target
15:50	TEttinger	the bad parts were that I was doing a lot of stuff in a dumb way, so it lost a lot of potential improvement
15:50	lokien	eh, guys here are implementing languages
15:50	lokien	and I'm just sitting here, struggling with advent of code
15:51	TEttinger	I was trying to make a clojure-like lisp that, like yours, could start up quickly and run simple things
15:52	TEttinger	if I started over I would use https://github.com/franko/luajit-lang-toolkit , which is a bit heavy-duty but should result in damn good opts
15:52	sdegutis	lokien: youd be surprised how graspable implementing a basic language is, as long as you do it inefficiently :D
15:52	sdegutis	TEttinger: hmm interesting.. yeah for something that would compete with ruby&rails, luajit looks like a good vm to target
15:53	sdegutis	TEttinger: i think ruby rather shines at command line stuff, small programs that arent intended to be long-lived
15:53	lokien	sdegutis: I dream of a project like this :(
15:53	sdegutis	lokien: lol haha
15:54	TEttinger	ok, back to space filling curves...
15:54	lokien	sdegutis: I open up my vim, sit there staring at screen for like 20 minutes, and then go eat something
15:55	sdegutis	well theres your problem
15:55	lokien	sdegutis: and then I forget about clojure for the rest of the day
15:55	sdegutis	you're using vim!
15:55	sdegutis	haha
15:55	lokien	with emacs it was even worse
15:55	lokien	like "shit, how do I close this buffer? pkill emacs welp, all is gone, screw this"
15:55	engblom	I also prefer vim. fireplace is really making clojure development under vim pleasant
15:56	lokien	I can't connect to my repl with fireplace
15:56	lokien	few days ago, only :Console wasn't working
15:56	lokien	now I can't connect at all
15:56	lokien	:(
15:57	sdegutis	editor wars are, like, over, maaan.. the /true/ editor is whatever is in your heart
15:58	lokien	what if my heart is a cold place filled with void?
15:59	ridcully_	have you changed anything? any plugins got autoupdated etc?
15:59	sdegutis	then the true editor for you is (void)0;
15:59	lokien	ridcully_: nothing!
16:00	ridcully_	e.g. cider-nrepl was updated recently, or am i just sitting on an old version?
16:00	lokien	sdegutis: let's write it in clojure :^)
16:00	sdegutis	hahahhaa
16:00	sdegutis	(do nil)
16:00	sdegutis	done
16:00	sdegutis	,(do nil)
16:00	lokien	Next Big Thing
16:00	clojurebot	nil
16:01	ridcully_	lokien: are you using a pinned version for cider/cider-nrepl?
16:01	lokien	ridcully_: I'm using vim, darn
16:01	ridcully_	me too
16:02	lokien	with cider?
16:02	ridcully_	yet i have cider-nrepl for fireplace installed
16:02	lokien	I'm using vanilla fireplace
16:02	lokien	and salve
16:02	lokien	and things for highlighting
16:13	amandabb	hi
16:14	amandabb	so hash tables dont have guaranteed order, but assuming they dont change will accessing items by random index at least be consistently random?
16:14	sdegutis	oh right i forgot cider 0.10 was released woo time to upgrade
16:15	sobel	amandabb: i wouldn't count on it
16:15	amandabb	like if i have a hash table of 10 items and access by random index instead of key
16:15	amandabb	will any item be relatively equal likely to show itself given a large enough amount of attempts
16:16	amandabb	or will some items be more likely to keep reappearing
16:16	sobel	how do you index a hash table
16:17	amandabb	can you not?
16:17	amandabb	i just assumed you could
16:17	justin_smith	amandabb: (rand-nth (vals m))
16:17	amandabb	sometimes i want to access by key but other times i just want a random item
16:17	amandabb	ooo
16:17	amandabb	thank you
16:17	justin_smith	amandabb: if you want key and value, (rand-nth (seq m))
16:17	justin_smith	that will give you k/v as a two element vector
16:17	amandabb	gotcha thanks this is perfect
16:23	ridcully_	lokien_: fired up a container, empty vim + pathogen + the four deps salve wants + lein. ran in tmux and ran :Console. cpp/Eval works
16:24	lokien_	ridcully_: yeah, I'm hearing it for the second time
16:24	lokien_	I guess my laptop is.. Special
16:25	lokien_	sdegutis: do you use emacs? ;-;
16:25	sdegutis	lokien_: yep
16:26	lokien_	sdegutis: with.. Emacs bindings?
16:26	sdegutis	lokien_: yep
16:26	ridcully_	i added cider-nrepl for some reason (maybe mentioned in a ticket). so i wanted to see, if its important - but seems not
16:26	sdegutis	lokien_: well, kinda
16:26	ridcully_	what errors do you get?
16:26	lokien_	sdegutis: I'm telling your mother
16:27	sdegutis	lokien_: hahaha good luck
16:28	StevensMother	Hello sdegutis
16:29	StevensMother	I'm worried about your pinkies going sore from these bindings you're using
16:29	noncom\|2	did anyone use lein-externs ( https://github.com/ejlo/lein-externs ) for clojurescript to generate externs ?
16:30	sdegutis	lokien hah
16:30	StevensMother	It's your mom here
16:30	StevensMother	Please, please stop
16:30	sdegutis	op plz
16:30	sdegutis	haha lol
16:30	sdegutis	StevensMother: no this is patrick
16:31	StevensMother	Oh, you're no fun. :^(
16:31	ridcully_	used some online service last time (most likely linked in the cljs wiki) last time i had to do it
16:31	sdegutis	lokien_: YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS
16:31	ridcully_	noncom\|2: but the js was very simple
16:31	noncom\|2	ridcully_: yeah, i remember you gave link to the service
16:31	sdegutis	lokien_: sorry i never learned how to interact with people on a normal level this is the best i can do
16:31	artosis	sdegutis: no I don't
16:32	sdegutis	hahah apparently neither have you, alright high five!
16:32	artosis	high five of social awkwardness
16:32	sdegutis	lokien so you learnin clojure as part of a high school course or just for fun on the side or what?
16:33	lokien_	I'm in high school, it sucks, it's all hardware
16:33	lokien_	I just want to write programs, they make me happy
16:36	lokien_	sdegutis: also, I don't want to go to college, it sucks even more
16:36	sdegutis	lokien_: heh dont know what to tell ya bud sorry
16:36	sdegutis	bbl
16:37	lokien_	sdegutis: why sorry?
16:39	lokien_	sdegutis: going to sleep now, so.. have a nice day and everything :)
16:51	amandabb	hi can someone take a quick look at this go-block (couple lines) and explain why i'm getting the listed error? http://pastebin.com/j3W8xM3j
16:51	amandabb	tried using do blocks, doall, doseq.. hmm not sure why it's not working
16:54	neoncontrails	Alright I give up. Asking this n00b question. Using this library:
16:54	neoncontrails	https://github.com/wiseman/clj-pronouncing
16:54	neoncontrails	Very straightforward. Included the library under :dependencies in my project.clj
16:54	neoncontrails	Included the require statement.
16:55	neoncontrails	Cursive still can't find the library. What else is required?
16:56	neoncontrails	I rebooted the project as JDK1.6, juuust in case it was a versioning issue. No dice.
16:56	neoncontrails	I'm out of ideas.
16:58	cfleming	neoncontrails: Do you see the lib under External Libraries in the project view?
16:58	ridcully_	mind to share that project.clj? or is this a cursive-only problem?
16:59	neoncontrails	cfleming: good question. I don't see it, no.
16:59	neoncontrails	ridculy_: it's dull I promise, but sure. One sec
16:59	cfleming	neoncontrails: Ok, open View->Tool Windows->Leiningen
16:59	cfleming	And hit the refresh button.
17:00	cfleming	That'll sync your dependencies from your project.clj to your Cursive project
17:01	neoncontrails	Got it. Trying now
17:01	neoncontrails	ridcully_: http://pastebin.com/X1kzkufG
17:02	noncom\|2	amandabb: something is undefined
17:02	amandabb	hmmmm
17:02	noncom\|2	it's clojurescript, so that means you are doing undefined.someMethod in js
17:02	amandabb	nothing is undefined in there though
17:03	amandabb	(def game-chan (chan)) is above it
17:03	amandabb	what other vars are there? when i remove that block of code it runs fine
17:03	noncom\|2	amandabb: are you sure? what if you console.log all of them: go, timeout, <!, >!, game-chan
17:03	amandabb	ooooooo
17:03	amandabb	it's not just vars
17:04	amandabb	i forgot about require
17:04	amandabb	thats probably it
17:04	noncom\|2	these are functions, right, but they should print out
17:04	amandabb	yeah didnt import timeout
17:04	amandabb	good call thanks
17:04	noncom\|2	ah, ok
17:04	neoncontrails	cfleming: so that worked great for loading the library into the current project. Now It's giving me a different error about unspecified modules when I try to run, but I may be able to tackle that one
17:05	neoncontrails	cfleming: appreciate it. I just upgraded from community edition, I don't recall these hoops
17:07	cfleming	neoncontrails: No worries, I have plans to make that easier/more intuitive
17:07	cfleming	(i.e. starting with actually telling you when you need to do it)
17:08	noncom\|2	amandabb: oh and as a second thought: all these: <!, >!, go, and other stuff are actually vars. it's one of the core features of a lisp - homoiconicity :)
17:08	amandabb	o right
17:15	neoncontrails	cfleming: hmm. I know that the 'module not specified' error is related, but I'm having trouble deciphering what the error means. It's not... really a module, is it? A module would be like a .jar?
17:16	cfleming	neoncontrails: Did you just upgrade IntelliJ?
17:16	neoncontrails	I did, yes
17:16	cfleming	Ok, there's a migration to the run configs which doesn't always work, and I haven't figured out why.
17:17	cfleming	Open your run config using Run->Edit Configurations
17:17	cfleming	Check that the specified module looks ok - you might need to re-select it and hit apply.
17:18	neoncontrails	Bingo! Man, I am glad you were here.
17:19	neoncontrails	I'm not sure I would've stumbled on the solution to that.
17:26	devth	how to get lein to output just the project version?
17:31	devth	looks like i'm gonna have to use lein-exec
17:36	justin_smith	devth_: hack way to do it (nth (read-string (slurp "project.clj")) 2)
17:36	justin_smith	if it's there on disk
17:36	justin_smith	I'm sure there's a right way that isn't that though
17:37	devth_	ah, yeah
17:37	devth_	could use that in combination with lein-exec
17:38	justin_smith	devth_: the good way to do it would be to make a simple lein plugin that gets that data from the project
17:38	justin_smith	that would be a very simple plugin
17:38	devth_	true
17:38	devth_	wonder if someone already has
17:39	devth_	there's one that sets version :)
17:39	justin_smith	devth_: https://github.com/taoeffect/slothcfg
17:39	justin_smith	runtime access to project.clj data?
17:43	devth_	hm, so i don't think lein-exec and another plugin can work together
17:43	devth_	plugins run in a separate jvm or smth?
17:43	devth_	tried: lein exec -e "(use 'cfg.current) (println (:version project))"
17:44	devth_	but it can't find cfg.current
17:45	devth	ah, need -ep to eval in-project
17:46	devth	lein exec -ep "(use 'cfg.current) (println (:version @project))"
17:47	devth	lol. a bit heavy handed
18:04	justin_smith	(defn 😈 [& args] ...) <- what should go in there?
18:08	ystael	justin_smith: i dunno but it should probably consume all available file descriptors
18:08	MJB47	(mapv #(println "i hate bytes") (range))
18:09	justin_smith	MJB47: making them signed is the icing on the cake
18:32	yenda	Hi guys, do you have a better way to refactor cljs code than manual work ?
18:38	neoncontrails	yenda: I've had great results with IntelliJ/Clojure's refactor tool. I think emacs also has a respectable one, but it's a bit tricky to use
18:39	neoncontrails	yenda: if you decide to go with intelliJ though, make sure to get IDEA 14 (not 15, the most recent). Cursive, the Clojure plugin, hasn't been updated yet
18:40	BRODUS	neoncontrails: what refactoring tool do you use for emacs?
18:40	cfleming	neoncontrails: Cursive does work with v15
18:40	BRODUS	i didn't know there waso ne
18:40	cfleming	BRODUS: clj-refactor
18:40	cfleming	(I don't use it, but that's what you want)
18:40	neoncontrails	cfleming: it does? Yess! I might get that right now then
18:41	BRODUS	ooo, thanks
18:41	noncom\|2	but it won't refactor clojurescript because it relies on a running jvm, no?
18:41	neoncontrails	BRODUS: uhh... I'll look up the name. It was the scary tool none of us understood at all in SICP
18:41	cfleming	@noncom\|2 I believe that's the case, yes
18:42	BRODUS	there was emacs in SICP ?
18:42	cfleming	Cursive's does work with CLJS, but is currently more limited than clj-refactor
18:42	noncom\|2	cfleming: that might be interesting for yenda then
18:42	zms	I'm trting to launch a cljs repl with boot using cljs-repl task. I get "Implicit target dir is deprecated, please use the target task instead. Set BOOT_EMIT_TARGET=no to disable implicit target dir.
18:42	neoncontrails	yup. My university really threw us in the deep end of the pool there
18:43	BRODUS	yeah it took me 2-3 attempts over a couple years before I took to emacs, can't imagine having to learn it with an actual workload
18:45	zms	running with "BOOT_EMIT_TARGET=no boot cljs-repl" seems to indicate that an nrepl server was started but there's no repl."
18:45	neoncontrails	It wasn't pretty. I still managed to fall kind of in love with Scheme, but it definitely left a Pavlovian aversion in me to emacs itself
18:47	zms	Emacs CIDER also fails to connect to the reported port of the nrepl server.. :-( Any hints/guidance appreciated.
18:48	justin_smith	zms: is the cljs repl provided via a browser, or node, or?
18:51	turbofail	huh. i learned to love emacs in order to deal with my workload
18:51	zms	justin_smith: hmm, good point. i'm using https://github.com/adzerk-oss/boot-cljs-repl with weasel and piggieback.. so i guess it should be provided by browser. however, i want to use node.
18:53	justin_smith	zms: so you get a clojure repl, then eventually you call (start-repl) ?
18:54	justin_smith	(once the node process is running with that half of the piggieback/weasel stuff?)
18:58	zms	justin_smith: i guess i'm all confused. must have faulty mental model.. :-( what i would like: Emacs CIDER to be connected to a repl provided by node.
18:58	pilne	hrm... clojure + actors for a concurrent game engine....
18:59	yenda	cfleming: clj-refactor doesn't work with cljs
19:00	justin_smith	zms: the way it works is that you have a clojure repl on a jvm, and you have a clojurescript process with a websocket. The websocket connection is used to send your compiled cljs and run it, and the results come back to your repl (which is still on top of the jvm)
19:00	justin_smith	you need the jvm because you are compiling new clojurescript code as you go in order to run the repl
19:00	yenda	neoncontrails: thanks, I prefer emacs though :/
19:00	neoncontrails	turbofail: yeah that's one way of looking at it. I just remember one time being on a tight deadline, and hitting the wrong key combo, and suddenly everything I typed was wingbats
19:01	turbofail	lol
19:01	justin_smith	zms: so you need cljs code that opens up the websocket and is ready to eval your code, and then you bootstrap (piggyback) that on top of a regular clj nrepl process
19:01	neoncontrails	and I distinctly remember figuring out 10 minutes later that I was stuck in something called 'cuneiform mode' and kind of rage sobbing
19:03	neoncontrails	yenda: you are a much braver soul than I. :) Glad you found something
19:03	yenda	neoncontrails: for me the hardest par was not getting myself stucked in configuration mode, where I would end up configuring emacs for days
19:03	yenda	then I discovered spacemacs and barely felt the need to configure anything
19:05	zms	justin_smith: so i need 1) clojure repl on jvm (using boot repl), 2) clojurescript process with a websocket (using cljs-repl?), 3) CIDER connects to nrepl (which passes the code to cljs). did i get it right?
19:05	neoncontrails	yenda: yeah you make a good point though. I've been rocking Vim a bit lately, when constrained to a headless server, and I think it can be pretty tough to learn the keystrokes if you haven't directly participated in their making
19:06	justin_smith	zms: I'm not sure about "cljs-repl" but the rest sounds exactly right
19:06	justin_smith	the cljs process will be node loading the js that your cljsbuild outputs
19:06	justin_smith	and that js should make it open a websocket that talks to your repl, etc.
19:07	yenda	neoncontrails: that's why spacemacs is so awesome, it has all the nice tools to help you learn the keystrokes as you go
19:07	zms	justin_smith: so the missing piece is something that will start a process that will link node and clj repl over a websocket, right?
19:07	justin_smith	zms: yeah, this is what piggieback and weasel do together
19:07	justin_smith	their readme files should show you what to do
19:08	neoncontrails	yenda: yeah? Hmm. I'll keep that in mind. I will gladly accept offers of handholding when it comes to emacs config
19:08	zms	justin_smith: thank you for the clarity. be back in a few. :)
19:08	justin_smith	zms: I use figwheel via lein, which automates all this (but I still ended up needing to know the details because abstractions leak, of course)
19:09	yenda	neoncontrails: apparently there is no refactoring tool for cljs yet though :(
19:09	neoncontrails	Gotta say. I've never felt more like an old man than I have the past few weeks on Vim
19:10	zms	justin_smith: figwheel with browser or node?
19:10	neoncontrails	At first, I mean, it was understandable. I was just picking it up. I was just getting started.
19:10	justin_smith	zms: with browser, but with node wouldn't be a huge difference - either way they load up the js and try to connect to a websocket
19:10	zms	justin_smith: honestly, lein has me frustarted.. it seems magical. boot seems conceptually something i can understand.
19:11	justin_smith	zms: yeah, the classic declarative vs. procedural split
19:12	neoncontrails	Then a week went by. Then another week. and I'm still terrified to move the cursor, lest I lose my 300th ordinal position in whatever line I'm on
19:12	zms	justin_smith: which is which? :)
19:13	justin_smith	zms: lein is declarative (you use a data structure that describes your outcome and parameters), boot is procedural (code that does the steps you want performed)
19:14	BRODUS	im using cider to dynamically refer a namespaces vars in another if it isn't already. is there a way to check what has been required in the namespace?
19:16	justin_smith	BRODUS: ns-aliases shows you what has been aliased
19:16	amandabb	hmmmm
19:16	justin_smith	ns-refers shows you what has been used / referred
19:16	justin_smith	BRODUS: but really, running require twice is not an error, and without the :reload arg it doesn't do anything the second time
19:17	justin_smith	BRODUS: calling refer again isn't an error either, if you want to do it at that level
19:17	justin_smith	,(doc refer)
19:17	clojurebot	"([ns-sym & filters]); refers to all public vars of ns, subject to filters. filters can include at most one each of: :exclude list-of-symbols :only list-of-symbols :rename map-of-fromsymbol-tosymbol For each public interned var in the namespace named by the symbol, adds a mapping from the name of the var to the var to the current namespace. Throws an exception if name is already mapped to somethin...
19:17	neoncontrails	three cheers for idempotency! cheers seven times
19:17	justin_smith	heh
19:20	justin_smith	,(refer 'clojure.core) ; no error!
19:20	clojurebot	nil
19:20	justin_smith	it only errors if the new refer conflicts
19:20	BRODUS	justin_smith: thanks, i didn't realize require did nothing second time around
19:20	zms	justin_smith: i read those documents several times (piggieback, weasel, and others) but it began to make sense only once you spelt it out. so thanks for that. i have enough homework for now. :)
19:22	yenda	neoncontrails: you can play vim-adventures to learn faster
19:24	neoncontrails	yenda: ooh! I was seriously thinking, just the other night, I need to either make a game or find one, because I think the only way I'm going to learn that many keybindings is if I'm playing like... Bop It! or something
19:25	neoncontrails	But that might be kind of fun, actually. Delete it! Find it! Yank it! Yank it!
19:26	BRODUS	i liked this one: http://www.openvim.com/
19:26	BRODUS	don't know if vim-adventures goes deeper without paying
19:28	neoncontrails	That's pretty cool too. I've talked myself into making Vim It! See ya, evening plans
19:37	BorisKourt	Does anyone use lentic here?
19:38	BorisKourt	(Better question might be, how do I search through all package commands in Spacemacs. It looks like the two commands Lentic uses are renamed.)
19:39	amandabb	is there any way to return a value from doseq?
19:40	amandabb	im trying to iterate through a 2d array and when two if's are true i want to return a value and exit out of the loop
19:40	amandabb	and then if it gets through both of them then to just return another value
19:40	turbofail	doseq never returns a value, it always returns nil
19:41	amandabb	so what else can i use?
19:41	amandabb	trying to do something like this: (doseq [x .. y ..] if#1 .. if #2 .. return a value! .. ... . . done looping through both so just return this value instead
19:42	devth	rewrite it using reduce
19:42	turbofail	maybe reduce
19:42	amandabb	nested reduces?
19:43	turbofail	you could do a nested reduce, or you could do (reduce (fn [[x y]] ...) (for [x ... y ...] [x y]))
19:45	amandabb	hmmm
19:45	amandabb	there's got to be a better way of doing this
19:45	amandabb	i guess ill just think on it for a while
19:45	turbofail	or actually you could do it without reduce just by using some
19:46	justin_smith	amandabb: you can use reduce with reduced
19:46	justin_smith	,(doc reduced)
19:46	clojurebot	"([x]); Wraps x in a way such that a reduce will terminate with the value x"
19:47	amandabb	ok
19:47	amandabb	ill look in to reduced and some
19:47	amandabb	thanks
19:47	justin_smith	,(reduce (fn [_ x] (when (even? x) (reduced x))) [1 3 5 8 1])
19:47	clojurebot	8
19:47	amandabb	yeah it sounds about right
19:47	justin_smith	amandabb: you can use reduce to walk the result of for, and for has the same syntax as doseq
19:48	amandabb	ok
19:49	amandabb	im just not sure if reduce is right though
19:49	amandabb	i dont really have an accumulator value per-se..
19:49	justin_smith	if all you are doing is checking for a specific value, use (some pred? (for ...))
19:50	amandabb	yeah that might be it
19:51	turbofail	actually (first (for [x ...y ... :when (pred x y)] (foo x y))) would do it to
19:51	turbofail	s/to/too/
19:51	justin_smith	oh yeah, :when is cool
19:51	amandabb	ohhh right first would cut it off right? thats a good point
19:51	turbofail	there's so many possibilities
19:51	amandabb	it wouldnt continue doing the calculation becuse it only needs one
19:51	turbofail	right
19:51	amandabb	ill look in to that too
19:51	justin_smith	first is not guaranteed to cut it off
19:52	amandabb	really?
19:52	justin_smith	if f has side effects that are important, don't do it that way
19:52	turbofail	well yeah there's like chunked sequences
19:52	justin_smith	amandabb: chunking
19:52	justin_smith	side effects and laziness are a bad mix
19:52	amandabb	theres no side effects in here
19:52	amandabb	im just checking for intersections in a grid
19:52	justin_smith	amandabb: I said "if f has side effects that are important"
19:52	justin_smith	amandabb: if it doesn't go right ahead and do it that way
19:53	amandabb	ok cool
19:53	justin_smith	,(first (map print [1 2 3 4 5 6])) ; amandabb - example of the gotcha
19:53	clojurebot	123456
19:53	justin_smith	it printed all of them because chunking
19:53	amandabb	i dont quite understand
19:54	justin_smith	amandabb: map is lazy, but it still processed all the items even though we only asked for the first one
19:54	amandabb	yeah im saying why does it process all of them if it knows we just need one
19:54	justin_smith	amandabb: it doesn't
19:54	justin_smith	first knows, map doesn't
19:55	justin_smith	chunking
19:55	justin_smith	amandabb: basically, for efficiency reasons it processes 32 items at a time
19:56	amandabb	so first only stops map from processing more elements when it can guarantee the map function is pure?
19:56	justin_smith	well, if it can guarantee the map function is pure, it doesn't matter whether it stops it or not
19:56	justin_smith	(except for cpu cost of course)
19:57	amandabb	i guess what im failing to understand is that i was under the impression when first is paired with lazy sequences that it doesnt process the entire list
19:57	amandabb	that it only does as much as it needs to and is thus efficient
19:57	justin_smith	amandabb: yeah, it's not that deterministic - chunking every time is faster than taking only one item at a time because you might not need them all
19:58	amandabb	ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
19:58	amandabb	i get it now
19:58	justin_smith	amandabb: stupid analogy "I need a soda" - it's faster to get a six pack than tear one can out
19:58	justin_smith	especially when it's "I need n sodas" and you don't know until runtime - default to grabbing some cases
19:58	amandabb	so if a list is less than a certain size (say 100) it just runs through the whole thing because that would be faster than trying to get speed improvements with laziness
19:59	justin_smith	right - it turns out it chunks by groups of 32 iirc
19:59	amandabb	gotcha
19:59	amandabb	ok thats neato
19:59	amandabb	i have to go now thanks for the help
19:59	justin_smith	np
20:12	zms	justin_smith: yay! finally everything works (with lein and figwheel). for reference, this is what i followed: https://libraries.io/clojars/nrepl-figwheel-node%2Flein-template
20:13	zms	justin_smith: good night!
20:16	justin_smith	zms: you too, glad you figured it out
22:04	domgetter	If you pass a partialed function to reduce, does it remake it every iteration? ex: https://gist.github.com/domgetter/bb41ebb4056aff7804d7
22:14	justin_smith	domgetter: reduce is not a macro, all its args including the function are evaluated when the form is compiled
22:14	justin_smith	domgetter: easy test...
22:14	domgetter	ah okay, and macros get evaluated at runtime?
22:14	justin_smith	,(reduce (partial str (println "test")) [1 2 3])
22:14	clojurebot	test\n"123"
22:15	domgetter	right, because that would've printed test three times if it was evaluating the partial every time
22:15	justin_smith	domgetter: macros can change how their args are evaluated - they can cause them to be evaluated at compile time, during some run-times, during every run-time, never....
22:15	justin_smith	right
22:15	domgetter	Okay I'll keep that in mind, thank you
22:20	domgetter	justin_smith: one more question. are these delays superfluous or will clojure try to evaluate the let bindings? https://gist.github.com/domgetter/02fbe16020dd8b481d83
22:21	domgetter	oh I guess I could do my own test with println
22:26	justin_smith	domgetter: yes, it will run all the clauses, so you can use delays if you want to only evaluate certain clauses
22:27	domgetter	yea, I just used the side-effect trick to convince myself that that's true :)
22:27	justin_smith	but here I think just the code is clearer than the delay / deref combo
22:29	justin_smith	yeah, println is a good way to test which things actually run
22:30	devth	println-driven-development
22:46	domgetter	println-driven-understanding
22:54	sdegutis	welp
22:58	justin_smith	sdegutis: whelps http://leerburg.com/Photos/whelp-1.jpg
22:58	sdegutis	haha lol
22:58	sdegutis	justin_smith: what new adventures in clojureland have you partaken in as of late old chap?
23:26	justin_smith	sdegutis: same old, working for a startup doing graph analysis
23:27	justin_smith	err, doing an app that does graph analysis
23:27	sdegutis	man that sounds so boring
23:27	sdegutis	is it fun?
23:27	justin_smith	it's actually pretty great, I've just been stuck with the generic stuff lately
23:27	justin_smith	the stuff that would just work out of the box with rails - login, settings, etc.
23:28	justin_smith	or at least the things I gather are much more cookie cutter there
23:31	sdegutis	hahaha yeah i know those feels