#clojure – 2015-11-28

2015-11-28

00:05	justin_smith	the version that is exactly like lambda x:x is (fn [x] x)
00:05	clojurebot	Roger.
00:05	justin_smith	dork
00:06	justin_smith	~the version that is exactly like lambda x:x
00:06	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
00:06	justin_smith	~the version that
00:06	clojurebot	the version that is exactly like lambda x:x is (fn [x] x)
00:06	justin_smith	numbskull
00:23	pontiki	n00b question - is (identity x) different from (fn [x] x) ?
00:25	justin_smith	pontiki: it's not an identical object, but it does the same thing
00:26	pontiki	is the x returned in each case the same x as sent in?
00:28	justin_smith	yes
00:28	justin_smith	,(let [o (Object.)] (= o (identity o) ((fn [x] x) o))
00:28	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
00:28	justin_smith	,(let [o (Object.)] (= o (identity o) ((fn [x] x) o)))
00:28	clojurebot	true
00:28	pontiki	good to know. background: in the bridge class, i wrote the latter form during an exercise, and the TA mentioned the identity function
00:29	justin_smith	yes, it's clever to come up with the identity function, it's a useful one, but clojure does have it built in
00:29	justin_smith	one more bit of info for the code above:
00:29	justin_smith	,(= (Object.) (Object.))
00:29	clojurebot	false
00:29	pontiki	yes, that i get
00:30	justin_smith	no two objects are the same, so we know o, (identity o) and ((fn [x] x) o) all return the same object
00:30	justin_smith	,(= identity (fn [x] x)) ; clojure doesn't have value identity for functions
00:30	clojurebot	false
01:12	akkad	clojure compiles to java byte code?
01:13	akkad	pondering if a static java bytecode analysis tool for security would be of any use for a clojure jar
01:15	justin_smith	akkad: I doubt the analysis would be useful - consider the fact that you can't run clojure without the compiler, and at runtime a clojure program could easily eg. load a string of data from a client, compile it, and run it
01:16	justin_smith	and if that can happen, the static analyzer can't tell you anything useful...
02:19	beaky	hello
02:21	beaky	i am beaky
02:21	beaky	oops wrong channel
03:08	Seraf	Hello everyone, I'm new to clojure, coming from a python world. This langage is very nice but I've some difficulties about manipulating datastructures. I'm trying to create an om component which will draw a menu by exploring a map. Here is my "code snippet", the result I want and the data structure I have : http://pastebin.com/f0MDaLHF does someone can help me please ?
03:09	Seraf	If there's a way to avoid the double for and do this in a more elegant way, I take all advice :)
03:30	tomjack	Seraf: (for [[account playbooks] deployment playbook (:results playbooks)] ...) ?
03:31	tomjack	hmm, well, that will not have an <li> for accounts with no playbooks
03:35	Seraf	tomjack, "deployment playbook" => where it come from ? my structure is in (:deployment app)
03:35	tomjack	sorry, I meant (:deployment app) for deployment
03:36	tomjack	anyway, :results is a key in playbooks there, which is a map. so you are getting :results out of the wrong things
03:37	tomjack	I think if you used map destructuring like (for [[account {:keys [results]}] (:deployment app)] ...) you'd be a bit closer
03:38	tomjack	(or just use (:results playbooks))
03:40	tomjack	it should be possible to avoid flatten. flatten is more useful when you don't know exactly how your data is nested. but your data's nesting is very known
03:42	Seraf	ok. Is there a problem to chain "for" ? I mean I need to iterate from accounts, then iterate from results. I tried what you gave me but it didn't handle my structure well.
03:47	tomjack	no problem. I guess you want (map :name (:results playbooks))
03:48	tomjack	yeah, what I gave you was garbage :(
03:56	Seraf	thanks tomjack it worked :)
03:57	Seraf	also, I have a problem with the key. when I display "account", it returns me : cycloidcycloid21537751054096 and I don't know where it come from as my key is only "cycloid"
04:00	tomjack	when you do (for [[account playbooks] (:deployment app)] ...), you are iterating over the key/value pairs in the :deployment map
04:01	tomjack	not sure, but maybe what you're seeing is an artifact of the implementation of keywords in cljs
04:01	tomjack	because account is then a keyword like :cycloid or :customer
04:02	tomjack	you can convert a keyword to a string like (name :cycloid)
04:02	tomjack	assuming you don't care about the keyword's namespace, or that it doesn't have a namespace
04:03	Seraf	ok, thanks for the help :)
04:12	rmrfchik	Hi
04:13	rmrfchik	how can I pass java method as clojure function? like (my-func .getName)
04:13	ARM9	you'll need to wrap it in a fn
04:13	ARM9	(my-func #(.getname %))
04:13	ARM9	since java functions don't implement the interface clojure needs for higher order functions
04:15	rmrfchik	yep, came to the same
04:15	rmrfchik	thanks
04:15	ARM9	I don't know if/how you can avoid reflection doing that
04:15	rmrfchik	wrap is ok
04:15	ARM9	which sucks
04:19	scottj_	,((memfn floatValue) 1)
04:19	clojurebot	1.0
04:25	ARM9	does memfn resolve all reflection?
04:25	ARM9	or do I manually have to typehint all the things
08:00	rmrfchik	i want to log my lazy list like this: (log/info (format "files are: %s" (doall (map #(.getName %) flist))))
08:01	rmrfchik	despite doall, i got 'files are: clojure.lang.LazySeq@13a11'
08:01	rmrfchik	what i miss here?
08:07	beaky	hello
08:08	beaky	does clojrue have sum types
08:12	ane	no
08:12	ane	typed clojure has them
08:24	rmrfchik	what about lazy map?
08:24	rmrfchik	drives me crazy
08:32	TEttinger	rmrfchik: like a lazy hash-map?
08:32	TEttinger	without order does that even make sense?
08:37	rmrfchik	TEttinger: it does
08:37	rmrfchik	just want to quick look to sequence
08:37	rmrfchik	mapv did the trick, but wtf...
08:38	TEttinger	I thought you meant you wanted an equivalent to lazyseqs that was associative by key
08:40	rmrfchik	TEttinger: I want to (format "%s" (map inc [1 2 3]))
08:42	TEttinger	ah.
08:42	TEttinger	yeah mapv is good for that
08:42	TEttinger	(format "%s" (pr-str (map inc [1 2 3])))
08:42	TEttinger	,(format "%s" (pr-str (map inc [1 2 3])))
08:43	clojurebot	"(2 3 4)"
08:46	rmrfchik	i wonder why format didn't look into seq
08:53	TEttinger	,(format "%s" (range))
08:53	clojurebot	"(0 1 2 3 4 ...)"
08:53	TEttinger	it appears to here
08:53	TEttinger	,(format "%s" (map inc [1 2 3]))
08:53	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@7c42"
08:54	TEttinger	hm
08:54	TEttinger	that's weird
08:54	TEttinger	,(class (range))
08:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Iterate
08:54	TEttinger	,(class (map inc [1 2 3]))
08:54	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
08:54	TEttinger	ah
09:00	rmrfchik	TEttinger: so, any ideas?
09:00	TEttinger	pr-str is my best shot
09:01	TEttinger	keep in mind though
09:01	TEttinger	,(format "%s" (pr-str (range)))
09:01	clojurebot	"(0 1 2 3 4 ...)"
09:01	TEttinger	oh print-length is set
09:02	TEttinger	if it isn't that might try to print an infinite strinh
09:05	beaky	hello
09:06	beaky	how do i do dijskstras algorihtm in clojure
09:15	TEttinger	beaky: do you care about the performance of the algorithm much? dijkstra called on large graphs with a straightforward implementation can be rather slow
09:15	beaky	ah
09:16	beaky	probably wont matter its just for rogueliek :D
09:16	TEttinger	there are less straightforward versions of dijkstra that are faster
09:17	TEttinger	(my personal recommendation is to use squidlib, which is in java and has dijkstra and A* implemented already. but the next release should be rather soon)
09:17	douglarek	I opend lein repl not in some clojure project, and cider-connect it in Emacs, but how can I switch repl namespace to some specific project
09:18	TEttinger	(I'm the primary committer to squidlib)
09:18	beaky	wow ill try squidlib then
09:18	beaky	how do i include it in lein
09:18	TEttinger	https://github.com/SquidPony/SquidLib
09:18	TEttinger	maven deps are similar hang on
09:19	TEttinger	[com.squidpony/squidlib-util "3.0.0-b1"]
09:22	beaky	https://github.com/SquidPony/SquidLib/blob/master/squidlib-util/src/main/java/squidpony/squidai/DijkstraMap.java wow im glad i dont have to implement all this myself now :D
09:22	beaky	this is perfect
09:23	beaky	btw how does lein know where to pull your lib
09:24	TEttinger	I put it on maven central. lein pulls from there and clojars
09:24	beaky	ah
09:24	TEttinger	maven central is a pain to get going properly
09:24	TEttinger	clojars is...better
09:25	beaky	is maven like the npm of clojure
09:25	TEttinger	maven is like one of the NPMs for java
09:25	TEttinger	and clojure can use it
09:25	beaky	ah
09:25	TEttinger	lein is a nice way to use maven without uh
09:25	TEttinger	badness
09:26	beaky	never used maven (or java much) im guess im glad i've got lein then :D
09:26	TEttinger	you have these horrid pom.xml files https://github.com/SquidPony/SquidLib/blob/master/pom.xml
09:27	TEttinger	tell me if you hit any stumbling blocks for that dijkstra in clojure
09:28	TEttinger	3.0.0 final should be fairly soon. api should be similar, i've added to dijkstramap but not removed and not changed anything
09:28	TEttinger	oh!
09:29	TEttinger	any Coord stuff you hit may be tricky. use (Coord/get 3 4) to get the point at x=3, y=4 . if there's a ... argument, it's really an array (this is true in java too)
09:29	beaky	ah
09:30	TEttinger	I'm trying to remember how to make a Coord array in clojure
09:32	TEttinger	(into-array [(Coord/get 1 2) (Coord/get 3 4)])
09:32	beaky	I love the coord thing going on even supports 3d type of roguelike worlds
09:32	TEttinger	not as well
09:32	beaky	(wonder how dijkstra works in 3d tho :D)
09:33	TEttinger	Coord is really really much better with 2D. it is immutable, which plays nice with clojure
09:33	beaky	ye my game stick with 2d type coords for now
09:33	TEttinger	limited to the range from -3 to 255 for x and y IIRC
09:33	TEttinger	(efficiently)
09:34	TEttinger	there's a way to make bigger Coord caches if needed, but dijkstra is dog-slow on 1000x1000 maps
09:37	TEttinger	beaky: I'm most curious about how the dungeon gen algos are consumable from clojure, since I'll be doing the same soon
09:37	TEttinger	squidgrid.mapping sort of package/ns
09:38	beaky	right will try out squidlib dungeon gen too (my crappy game still uses static maps haha)
09:38	TEttinger	https://github.com/SquidPony/SquidLib/blob/v3.0.0-b1/squidlib-util/src/main/java/squidpony/squidgrid/mapping/DungeonGenerator.java
09:39	TEttinger	the problem as I see it is that amap and other clojure builtins like dealing with 1d arrays
09:39	TEttinger	and all of these use 2d char arrays
09:39	luxbock	beaky: sticking to the standard Clojure data structures is usually a good idea
09:39	TEttinger	for dijkstra?
09:39	TEttinger	I have a version that sticks with them
09:40	luxbock	I have never actually used dijkstra for anything, so I was just making a more general point
09:43	TEttinger	http://ideone.com/YnhoF3 lines 97 to 140 are a (unoptimized) dijkstra map using immutable clojure data structures
09:43	TEttinger	you get better performance with transients on clojure data or by using arrays
09:45	TEttinger	thid used both http://ideone.com/27YYx3
09:47	TEttinger	beaky: sorry to recommend and run, but I have a plane back home to catch!
10:30	gfredericks	,(reduce #(assoc %1 %2 %1) nil [:foo :bar :baz :bang :haloooo])
10:30	clojurebot	{:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}, :baz {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}}, :bang {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}, :baz {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}}}, :haloooo {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}, :baz {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}}, :bang {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}, :baz {:foo nil, :bar {:foo nil}}}}}
10:30	gfredericks	that turned out more interesting than I expected
10:32	justin_smith	,(reduce #(assoc %1 %2 %1) nil "abcde")
10:32	clojurebot	{\a nil, \b {\a nil}, \c {\a nil, \b {\a nil}}, \d {\a nil, \b {\a nil}, \c {\a nil, \b {\a nil}}}, \e {\a nil, \b {\a nil}, \c {\a nil, \b {\a nil}}, \d {\a nil, \b {\a nil}, \c {\a nil, \b {\a nil}}}}}
10:34	gfredericks	,(reduce #(assoc %1 %2 %1) nil (range 5))
10:34	clojurebot	{0 nil, 1 {0 nil}, 2 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}}, 3 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}, 2 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}}}, 4 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}, 2 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}}, 3 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}, 2 {0 nil, 1 {0 nil}}}}}
10:34	gfredericks	it's a bit like the set-theoretic definition of an integer as the set of smaller integers
10:35	gfredericks	,(defn set-int [n] (set (map set-int (range n))))
10:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/set-int
10:35	gfredericks	,(set-int 5)
10:35	clojurebot	#{#{#{} #{#{} #{#{}}} #{#{}}} #{} #{#{#{} #{#{} #{#{}}} #{#{}}} #{} #{#{} #{#{}}} #{#{}}} #{#{} #{#{}}} #{#{}}}
10:35	gfredericks	s/integer/natural number/
10:39	justin_smith	gfredericks: I always thought it would be a funny experiment to make Number act as IFn as in the peano numbers, so that (6 5) would return 30
10:39	justin_smith	while we're doing overloads that hide common errors anyway, why not one more
10:55	gfredericks	church numerals
10:58	justin_smith	gfredericks: in that case (6 f) would be the equivalent of (nth (iterate f f) 6) right?
10:59	justin_smith	or would that be (apply comp (repeat 6 f))
11:00	gfredericks	it's been a while since I church numerals
11:04	gfredericks	you could make a pretty simple interactive lambda calculus thing by just doing a thin mapping from ascii strings to "lists" of church numerals, for some suitable lambda calc implementation of a list
11:05	gfredericks	justin_smith: looks like it is nth+iterate: http://briancarper.net/blog/479.html
11:07	justin_smith	gfredericks: oh, nth + iterate, except the initial arg is not f, it's more like #(nth (iterate f %) N)
11:09	gfredericks	yeah
11:25	Glenjamin	,(get {'get 123, :a 1} :a)
11:25	clojurebot	1
11:25	Glenjamin	,('get {'get 123, :a 1} :a)
11:25	clojurebot	123
11:25	Glenjamin	on the subject of possibly error-hiding IFn implementations
11:43	Glenjamin	,(let [get 'get] (get {a: 1} 2))
11:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: a:>
11:43	Glenjamin	,(let [get 'get] (get {:a 1} 2))
11:43	clojurebot	2
13:58	hlolli	How can I get just (list + 2 2) out of...
13:58	hlolli	,(eval `(let [a# 1 b# 2] (list + a# a#)))
13:58	clojurebot	(#object[clojure.core$_PLUS_ 0x1a145a4e "clojure.core$_PLUS_@1a145a4e"] 1 1)
13:59	hlolli	,(eval `(let [a# 1 b# 2] '(list '+ ~a# ~a#)))
13:59	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: a# in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a# in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: a# in this context"...
14:00	justin_smith	hlolli: eval doesn't use locals
14:00	nornagon	Is it just me or is there no transducer that produces a sliding-window over a collection a la (partition-all n 1 coll)?
14:01	nornagon	,(partition-all 2 1 [1 2 3 4])
14:01	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4))
14:01	hlolli	ok, Im having a problem that Im in a macro and want to return unevaluated list, but it keeps evaluating.
14:01	hlolli	Of course I evaluate the macra since Im calling it.
14:02	justin_smith	hlolli: a macro should return the code it wants to be run - if you want to return the data unevaluated you should probably wrap the whole thing in quote
14:03	hlolli	ok, let me show you this macro.. wait
14:03	gfredericks	,(defmacro put-this-code-in-a-list [& args] (list 'quote args))
14:03	justin_smith	should be as simple as (cons 'quote current-body-of-your-macro)
14:03	clojurebot	#'sandbox/put-this-code-in-a-list
14:03	gfredericks	,(put-this-code-in-a-list foo (inc 41))
14:03	clojurebot	(foo (inc 41))
14:04	justin_smith	oh yeah, list quote, not cons quote, right
14:04	hlolli	https://www.refheap.com/112165
14:04	gfredericks	that macro is probably way too big
14:04	justin_smith	that macro is bad and you should feel bad
14:05	gfredericks	what is it that makes this need to be a macro?
14:05	hlolli	Well, I really need this to be a macro.
14:05	gfredericks	oh it's creating more macros
14:05	hlolli	I cant evaluate immeadiately.
14:05	gfredericks	but isn't it expanding to a bunch of defmacro calls? what's wrong with evaluating those immediately?
14:05	hlolli	It has to connect pieces togeather before a function inside this macro can be evaluated, works fine.
14:05	justin_smith	hlolli: as gfredericks was suggesting, if you changed that do to quote at the top, that would quote the whole damned thing
14:06	hlolli	Im a macro cowboy, sure :)
14:06	hlolli	ok, I try that.
14:06	justin_smith	or wait, wrap the do in (list 'quote ...)
14:06	justin_smith	because you have more than one thing in that do blcok, my bad
14:07	justin_smith	hlolli: if you look at core.async, they have a very nice way of making larger macros - instead of putting all of it in one macro, they make constituent parts, using functions that return lists
14:07	hlolli	ok, so to be more percise. Everywhere this macro works fine except in :load part of it, the only place ev-conc-ref# wants to evaluate prematurely
14:07	justin_smith	it makes something like that much more intelligible
14:08	hlolli	ok, I'll look into that. Originally this was suppose to be a small macro that I just got crazy on.
14:09	justin_smith	my rule of thumb is that macros are for defining a syntax, and the semantics (the logic implemented) is not the macros job and should be defined using functions
14:09	justin_smith	and, if the syntax part gets complex, you can use functions that do list transforms to decompose it
14:10	hlolli	yes that could ease this a alot, doing the logic elsewhere.
14:14	hlolli	but isn't it expanding to a bunch of defmacro calls? what's
14:14	hlolli	wrong with evaluating those immediately? ....... goodpoint gfredericks
14:14	hlolli	but one thing I was not able to debug was that by not having this as a macro (function) I was not able to define symbols outside on my namespace.
14:16	justin_smith	you can bind symbols to any namespace using intern
14:17	justin_smith	it will be a macro if it's a function and you add the metadata :macro true to the metadata of the symbol you bind
14:17	justin_smith	(and you need to insert two extra args at the beginning, that you will likely ignore)
14:17	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:18	hlolli	ok, there's way too little info on interns on the clojure docs website
14:18	hlolli	or anywhere, I do use interns but slightly and not for macros.
14:20	jsabeaudry_	When trying to setup datomic, I feel like a complete retard
14:20	justin_smith	hlolli: no, not ns-interns - that lists things
14:20	justin_smith	intern, that adds a binding
14:20	hlolli	yesyes, I mean that
14:21	hlolli	it's just a (intern ns symbol body)
14:21	justin_smith	,(intern 'clojure.core 'foo "FOO")
14:21	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/foo
14:21	justin_smith	hlolli: yeah, that's all it is
14:21	justin_smith	,foo
14:21	clojurebot	"FOO"
14:21	justin_smith	,'foo
14:21	clojurebot	foo
14:21	justin_smith	,#'foo
14:21	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/foo
14:21	justin_smith	see, I just defined something in clojure.core, easy
14:21	hlolli	but how can you tell the body to be a macro
14:22	justin_smith	,(intern 'clojure.coo ' ^:macro bar (fn [nil nil x] x))
14:22	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unsupported binding form: "\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.Exception: Unsupported binding form: , compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6891]}\n {:type java.lang.Exception\n :message "Unsupported binding form: "\n :at [clojure.core$destructure$pb__4924 invoke "core.clj" 429...
14:22	justin_smith	ergh
14:22	justin_smith	one moment :)
14:22	hlolli	ok I see where you are going with this
14:24	justin_smith	,(intern 'clojure.core ' ^:macro bar (fn [_ _ x] x))
14:24	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/bar
14:24	justin_smith	,(refer-clojure)
14:24	clojurebot	nil
14:24	justin_smith	,(bar 42)
14:24	clojurebot	42
14:24	justin_smith	,#'bar
14:24	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/bar
14:24	justin_smith	see, working macro
14:25	justin_smith	a stupid macro, but it's a macro
14:25	hlolli	ok ok
14:25	hlolli	maybe this will do it
14:25	justin_smith	hlolli: that stuff is slightly weird, but I think it's simpler than macro generating macro generating macros
14:26	hlolli	yes, what I want is not really to solve this by solving it. As this is set up now, I only need to require one namespace and I can start to make music. Similar to overtone, I want to keep it that way.
14:54	hlolli	Ok, I just found out that the reason it evaluated is because the dosync returns the last item in the list.... so I guess I stick to this uglieness here and be wiser next time.
15:07	n3wb	I have a beginner question. When you use packages from others, how do you usually go about getting to know the available namespaces and functions? I often find myself trying to reverse engineer whatever map + special keys I need to pass, thinking there must be a better way...
15:08	justin_smith	n3wb: I usually end up reading the source. But there is also the doc function for seeing doc strings, and ns-publics for seeing all the functions in an ns
15:09	Frozenlock	n3wb: the function doc and the readme.
15:10	Frozenlock	Which makes me 'not liking' libraries without function docs.
15:14	jonathanj	can anyone recommend a logging library?
15:19	nornagon	i think clojurebot has something to say about java logging
15:53	codahale	jonathanj: clojure.tools.logging and then unilog to actually set things up
15:55	rhg135	~logging
15:55	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:55	rhg135	~java
15:55	clojurebot	java is a mutable basket case
15:55	rhg135	Ok
16:17	jonathanj	codahale: what's the opinion of timbre?
16:17	jonathanj	(it seems really complicated, at first glance)
16:18	codahale	jonathanj: I’d generally recommend against using things that don’t play nicely with SLF4J
16:18	codahale	Adding yet another logging backend into the mix seems unwise
16:19	jonathanj	codahale: why is that?
16:19	jonathanj	codahale: recommending against those things, i mean
16:19	codahale	It’s rare to work on a JVM-hosted project and not have a dependency which requires an SLF4J backend
16:22	kenrestivo	aye, the joy of silent failures. :compnent-will-mount doesn't execute. wonder why? :)
16:24	splunk	FWIW we've been on timbre in prod for two years, no problems. We also have Datomic (and possibly others) using SLF4J but at least with a little bit of fiddling it has not conflicted.
16:26	splunk	Although that being said we don't do a ton of work like, unifying logging settings / levels / whatever across the systems. It all just goes to stdout/stderr and then gets picked up by external processes.
16:29	jonathanj	splunk: i don't plan on doing anything complicated either, but using timbre seems more complicated than tools.logging (at least reading the examples)
16:31	splunk	timbre should only be (ns foo (:require [taoensso.timbre :as t])) (t/info "hello world")
16:32	splunk	+ the add in project.clj
16:32	splunk	so...should be reasonably cheap to try out and see what you like
16:44	eseg	hi, does anyone know of clojure programming projects I can join?
16:47	justin_smith	kenrestivo: yeah, I've found if I want to reliably know what went wrong in starting components, I need to wrap the start method in a try/catch
16:48	justin_smith	splunk: the problem is that timbre is not compatible with any logging done by any java lib you might use, so then you have a minimum of two logging systems to configure and use
16:48	justin_smith	it would be different if I could make the java libs use timbre, but you can't
16:58	codahale	tools.logging + unilog also has the virtue of making it very easy to have a single, JSON-formatted log stream
16:59	eseg	i guess i should ust come up with my own project to work on
16:59	eseg	just*
16:59	codahale	And then puppetlabs/structured-logging makes it easy to log structured data which plays nicely with said log stream
16:59	justin_smith	eseg: leiningen has many issues marked as being contributions that should be easy for a newcomer
19:59	gfredericks	https://github.com/gfredericks/schema-bijections/blob/master/test/com/gfredericks/schema_bijections_test.clj
20:57	justin_smith	gfredericks: what does it mean to biject a schema?
20:59	amalloy	dang, i drop in for just a few minutes and apparently into the middle of a grand existential debate about schemas
21:02	amalloy	justin_smith: i would guess, given two compatible schemas, a way to convert from one to the other and back losslessly
21:51	blackdice	ever since I started growing a beard I've really liked programming a lot more for some reason
21:53	pontiki	ROFL
22:03	gfredericks	amalloy_: justin_smith: more or less yeah
22:04	gfredericks	though the idea in this case is to only have to write one schema, and other equivalent schemas get generated for you, along with conversion functions
22:05	justin_smith	gfredericks: so do you use prismatic/schema extensively at work?
22:06	gfredericks	lately yeah
22:06	justin_smith	I've become the annoying guy who won't shut up about how we would have a lot less of these problems if we had unit tests and used prismatic/schema at system boundaries
22:07	justin_smith	at work, that is
22:07	gfredericks	"these problems" ≟ the problems you have
22:08	justin_smith	gfredericks: "these problems" being rare bugs that only happen occasionally at runtime, with no leads toward what makes them happen, any significant change to the implementation involving a long session of tracking down everything you just broke through trial and error, and fixing it
22:08	justin_smith	people having to spend 10 minutes running the app through its paces before they are sure their change is good
22:09	gfredericks	oh manually?
22:09	justin_smith	right, manually
22:09	justin_smith	point and click
22:10	gfredericks	~that is not how george washington meant for us to test software
22:10	clojurebot	Roger.
22:10	justin_smith	haha
22:10	gfredericks	~that
22:11	clojurebot	that is http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3000000/Arrowed-teen-girl-squad-3099521-570-420.jpg
22:11	gfredericks	clojurebot: that?
22:12	clojurebot	that is highly unlikely
22:12	gfredericks	quite the lag
22:12	justin_smith	gfredericks: little known fact, the "arrows" in that illustration are the category theory kind, that comic is about monads
22:12	gfredericks	I'm trying to make a homestarrunner joke out of this but I don't know how
22:14	justin_smith	"something something strongbad functor something"
22:29	kenrestivo	is there a library function that does basically (apply disj (-> new-map keys set) (keys old-map))
22:40	justin_smith	kenrestivo: not quite - for some reason that vaguely reminds me of data.diff, but it looks at more than keys
22:49	kenrestivo	changed-keys, i named it. another item for the utilty library
23:45	virmundi	hello. Is the right place to discuss clojure/clojurescript related project design?