#clojure – 2015-09-15

2015-09-15

02:10	neoncontrails	,(doc list*)
02:10	clojurebot	"([args] [a args] [a b args] [a b c args] [a b c d & ...]); Creates a new list containing the items prepended to the rest, the last of which will be treated as a sequence."
02:10	neoncontrails	When is this preferable to list?
02:15	jeaye	neoncontrails: When you're consing multiple items onto a list.
02:15	jeaye	,(list 1 2 (list 3 4))
02:15	clojurebot	(1 2 (3 4))
02:15	jeaye	,(list* 1 2 (list 3 4))
02:15	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
02:21	neoncontrails	jeaye: That makes sense. Thanks!
02:23	jeaye	Sure.
03:26	instilled	the documentation of defrecord states that metadata is supported. Unfortunately I fail to access the metadata on a defrecord. How is this done?
03:53	mavbozo	instilled, (-> (Point. 3 4) (with-meta {:foo :bar}) meta)
03:53	mavbozo	instilled, ;= {:foo :bar}
05:05	iwo	hey, this is a really stupid question but... is there any better way to write: (do (side-effect-fn) nil)
05:06	iwo	kind of like dorun (returns nil) but not for seqs
05:07	mavbozo	iwo, rather than (do (println "foo") nil), you can just write (println "foo")
05:08	mavbozo	println is side-effecting function
05:08	iwo	I have a function that does something like: (if (...) (something) (do (increment-failure-metric) nil))
05:09	iwo	mavbozo: in this case, increment-failure-metric returns something :(
05:09	mavbozo	iwo, and you don't want the return value from increment-failure-metric?
05:09	iwo	so I end up having to explicitly add nil as the return value. I know it's probably stupid to try to find a function to do that, it just feels like there should be one :)
05:10	luma	why do you need to specifically return nil?
05:10	iwo	one option I was trying to find: a function that takes any arguments and always returns nil
05:11	iwo	luma: because the return value of my fn is obviously something completely different, and has nothing to do with metrics
05:11	talios	mmm mutation - something smells there
05:11	iwo	I guess the answer here is that I should move the metrics out of this function
05:11	iwo	basically I want: do-nil :)
05:15	TMA	now you have it: (defn do-nil [& _] nil)
05:15	talios	:)
05:15	luma	(def do-nil (constantly nil))
05:16	TMA	,((constantly nil) 1 2 3)
05:16	clojurebot	nil
05:16	talios	TMA - mmm, doesn't iwo want it to RUN what he passes in, THEN return nil. that just returns will only
05:17	mavbozo	,((constantly nil) (do (println "foo") :done))
05:17	clojurebot	foo\n
05:17	mavbozo	#((constantly nil) (do (println "foo") :done))
05:17	TMA	,((constantly nil) (println "foo"))
05:17	clojurebot	foo\n
05:17	noncom	you should not be concerned with the return value if you disregard it in any case
05:18	TMA	,((fn [& _] nil) (println "foo"))
05:18	clojurebot	foo\n
05:18	talios	I guess the bigger question is what does (something) return
05:18	noncom	for example, (swap!) is a very common operation and it always returns a value (most often not nil). it is used in so many places that treating it as a special case is unfeasible
05:18	TMA	talios: clojure does not seem to be lazy
05:19	talios	TMA - whats laziness got to do with it?
05:20	TMA	talios: arguments are evaluated even if they are unused; therefore any side effects are performed
05:20	TEttinger	TMA: ,((fn [& _] nil) (println "foo")) is calling that fn with nil
05:20	TEttinger	println returns nil
05:22	talios	TMA - him, I thought (if) was a special form, assumed it handled that case. easy enough to macro up a lazy (if~ ) or something tho
05:22	mungojelly	yeah clojure has laziness as a prominent strategy but not a basis is my impression
05:23	talios	it's probably one of the main things I dislike about clojure ( over tooling, and lack of types ) is the inconsistency in strictness
05:24	TMA	TEttinger: the whole invocation returns nil (regardless of the return value of any provided parameter forms); it first evaluates the arguments to (fn [& _] nil); during the evaluation any side effects are performed (in other words the argument forms are RUN); the values are then passed onto (fn [& _] nil) which ignores them and returns nil
05:26	mungojelly	the feeling seems to be, here we are on the jvm, we're going to play with all these messy toys here, so we're also going to have a functional laziness and keep it in a box and negotiate in various ways between that and the mess
05:26	mjg	messy toys?
05:27	mungojelly	things that are practically useful but hugely effectual or stateful or otherwise not ideal
05:27	TEttinger	TMA: I'm curious what the alternative here is. would you want to do a compile-time analysis of the whole program path to see where values produced by side-effecting functions are used, and not run the side effects if the values aren't used?
05:28	TMA	However, if clojure were lazy (in the Haskell style), the arguments would not be evaluated, because they were not used (you'd need to resort to some monad trickery to force them to be evaluated; but then Haskell is pure, there are no monadfree sideeffects)
05:29	mungojelly	yeah that sounds like real laziness, if it's never used it just doesn't happen in the first place, the eventual use is always what triggers everything behind it
05:30	iwo	I think what I'm after is: (defmacro do-nil [& body] `(do ~@body nil)) :)
05:30	TEttinger	also I suspect it would make the already slow clojure AOT compile process even slower
05:31	TEttinger	iwo, yep
05:31	talios	TEttinger - frege seems quite snappy to compile :)
05:31	talios	I've not done anything large in it yet tho
05:31	TEttinger	don't know it
05:31	TEttinger	lazybot takes about 2 minutes to uberjar the relatively large program
05:31	talios	haskell for the jvm :)
05:32	TEttinger	that sounds kinda awful... isn't one of the biggest advantages of haskell the guarantees they have by their own type system and ecosystem in general?
05:33	talios	and that type system carries across. the FFI to java is rather controlled, and lifts nulls into Maybe's, and wrapps impure things into ST
05:34	talios	TEttinger - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7w-RSC_1A - from this weekends FregeDay mini conf
05:34	mjg	Could one, as an experiment, write a macro which wrapped every form in (delay...) to simulate haskellesque laziness?
05:37	TEttinger	mjg: it would also need to deref the values before they're used, but it seems possible
05:42	mjg	That's a pretty steep overhead, right? But if it were implemented as a new reference type which was automatically forced on-demand, then it seems pretty similar to what haskell is doing.
05:42	mjg	just as an alternative to compile-time analysis, not suggesting you actually do this.
06:01	cydork	talios: frege is coming along nicely..
06:03	talios	cydork - yep, seems to getting more and more interest. esp. now theres the maven plugin, the lein plugin, the gradle plugin, and some experimental stuff I'm toying with with hazel. Now we just need libraries to build an ecosystem
06:04	cydork	talios: yep. just saw some article about the benchmarks.. which were on par with ghc
06:05	talios	cydork - oh? got a link, I wonder if that in relation to the performance talk given at FregeDay
06:06	talios	( also next to that video I posted above )
06:06	cydork	talios: https://gist.github.com/vsts/57565f5b7d11df39541c
06:06	talios	could be interesting running some things thru JMH
06:06	cydork	talios: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3igird/frege_faster_than_haskell_ghc/
06:06	talios	ah yes that post.
06:31	seye	Hi. Am I correcting in thinking that it isn't possible to deref or ensure multiple refs at the exact same 'snapshot time'?
06:32	tomshacham	please could i have a nice example of a macro? something beyond "infix" that just allows (1 + 1)
06:33	sobel	seye: sounds like you might want to use a transaction
06:35	seye	this is within a transaction
06:36	gilliard	tomshacham: there's a lot of macros in clojure itself - look in core.clj
06:37	sobel	seye: you should be good. refs are connsistent inside transactions.
06:37	sobel	seye: are you familiar with the MVCC model?
06:37	seye	yes
06:38	sobel	that is the STM model for transactions
06:38	seye	i know :)
06:38	seye	however
06:39	seye	if i deref two refs within a transaction, it is possible for another transaction to commit between the two derefs, so the second ref may have a value different to the one that it had when i derefed the first one.
06:40	tomshacham	gilliard: thanks
06:40	sobel	your transaction shouldn't see that
06:42	sobel	are you concerned that the ref could be altered before your transaction ensures it?
06:50	seye	You are correct sobel, i'm relieved to say! I ran a test that made it look like it was failing, but it was actually retrying the transaction to keep if consistent and the output confused my slow brain!
06:51	sobel	whew!
06:54	seye	http://pastebin.com/6s5TuPNN
07:05	ane	I edited the Clojure wikipedia page a bit, can anyone check if the edits make sense? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clojure&type=revision&diff=681133095&oldid=680279119
08:43	chouser	ane: It's great to have all those citations. The word "force" might be a bit too strong since uncoordinated mutation is still available.
08:43	chouser	ane: perhaps "encourage" instead of "enforcing" and "forces"?
08:47	ane	yes!
08:48	ane	i need to find citations for the second paragraph of the history section, but can't
08:48	ane	i know he mentioned it in some video but i don't remember which one it was
09:03	dumbintel	Can someone explain atom's to me? Living Clojure's explanation is a bit abstract. Are they like pointers and refs like references?
09:04	chouser	atoms and refs and agents are all like pointers, but with semantics to control how they're updated
09:04	snowell	I found this answer to be helpful: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9132346/clojure-differences-between-ref-var-agent-atom-with-examples
09:04	chouser	The semantics differ, which is why there are three different types.
09:05	chouser	snowell: Nice.
09:05	chouser	I would also recomment "The Joy of Clojure" ;-)
09:05	dumbintel	I think I get wrapped around state as a new idea. I'll start with that article.
09:07	mavbozo	chouser, will the 3rd edition contains core.async and transducers? :)
09:09	chouser	mavbozo: I suppose it should, shouldn't it.
09:09	noncom	dumbintel: atoms just store mutable state that is guaranteed to cause no concurrency issues on change, no order is guaranteed, they block thread until state change is successful. refs contain state and allow to change several refs in a particular order, providing all safety of atoms, they block too. agents are same as atoms but do not block, use for spin-off or long-term calculations
09:10	noncom	vars are used for programmatic entities, like functions, variables, not for data
09:11	noncom	dumbintel: i think it is safe to say that in over 90% of cases it is almost certain all your data can be handled with atoms.
09:14	noncom	mavbozo: heh, transducers.. let alone transducers, i'm still waiting for an example of a real world complexity UI built with core async.
09:16	dumbintel	Also, would you guys recommend a web front end or a swing front end for a game with chess-like elements meant to study A.I.
09:18	dumbintel	The interface would be static for the most part where dynamic elements are pieces, but even those are just simple images coming in and out of view.
09:40	noncom	wheres lazybot?
09:49	tmarble	I'm getting compilation errors (ClassAdapter.java) when building clojure from master... anyone seen this?
10:17	justin_smith	noncom: atoms do not block, they retry
10:17	justin_smith	noncom: they are a non-locking optimistic concurrency mechanism
10:17	justin_smith	noncom: refs also retry
10:17	justin_smith	noncom: agents lock rather than retry
10:18	noncom	justin_smith: hmmmmm, well, in my practice, if i swap an atom, the thread stops until the swapping is successful
10:18	justin_smith	noncom: this is important, because side effects inside swap!, or a mutable object inside an atom, can cause serious bugs because of retries
10:18	tolu	hi
10:18	justin_smith	noncom: that's because it blocks your thread until a retry succeeds
10:18	justin_smith	noncom: that is not the same as locking the atom
10:19	justin_smith	noncom: it blocks the caller, it does not lock the data
10:19	noncom	hmmmm... this is interesting, apparently there are subtleties for the terms
10:19	noncom	ah yes, blocks the caller, sure, but data is available. well, it blocks the calling thread.. that's what i meant..
10:19	noncom	tolu: hi
10:19	noncom	tmarble: maybe you're using an unstable branch?
10:20	noncom	tmarble: ah, master, quite probable
10:20	tolu	please I would like to add a value into a particular column of a vector without replacing the previous value. I did this (assoc [1 2 3 4] 1 8) ;;=> [1 8 3 4] but I want [1 8 2 3 4]
10:20	justin_smith	noncom: right, the important thing is to remember that it doesn't lock the data, it will retry, and that is why side effects inside a swap! call, or mutable objects inside an atom, will cause bugs
10:20	tmarble	noncom: I've even tried JDK 6 and the args used in the latest Hudson build http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure/lastBuild/console
10:21	tmarble	the only difference is that I'm using maven 3 (could be a showstopper?)
10:21	tolu	I did this (assoc [1 2 3 4] 1 8 ) ;;=> [1 8 3 4] but I want [1 8 2 3 4]
10:21	justin_smith	tolu: vectors don't support that directly, you'll likely need to coerce to a sequence, do sequence ops, then create a vector again
10:21	justin_smith	or you can use something like a finger-tree that can do that directly
10:21	noncom	yeah, this i know. probably had to mention also, but the reply was getting big already. however, what i said, does not contradict what you're saying. what you're saying is an expansion of my saying, so i think, that will not break the space-time continuum this time :D and when he learns more, he'll also accomodate the wisdom you're mentioning! :)
10:22	noncom	tolu: simplest solution in one line would be something like (concat (take N col) [8] (drop N+1 col))
10:22	noncom	tolu: or fingertrees, yeah, they're cool
10:23	tolu	noncom: and justin_smith: thanks
10:23	justin_smith	,(let [v [1 2 3 4]] (apply conj (subvec v 0 1) 8 (subvec v 1))) ; another way
10:23	noncom	ah, it should be (drop N col) i guess
10:23	clojurebot	[1 8 2 3 4]
10:23	noncom	subvec is faster on vectors, right?
10:23	justin_smith	I forgot about subvec!
10:23	justin_smith	yeah
10:23	justin_smith	*almost forgot
10:24	tolu	cool
10:24	mungojelly	whatever topic you ask about on freenode you get an answer that's too specific and too detailed and too picky and too particular, it's a great place to learn things :)
10:24	justin_smith	heh
10:25	justin_smith	mungojelly: it's because someone can come back and say "you said atoms locked and thanks to retries I bought 100 porsche's from amazon.com when I was only supposed to buy 1"
10:26	justin_smith	mungojelly: you have to answer with not only the current situation in mind, but others your answer will likely be extended to
10:26	noncom	tmarble: well, sometimes master branch of a repo can contain something that does not compile... although i did not look into clojure repo and can't say more
10:26	mungojelly	those are the beneficent reasons, and then there's that it gets boring explaining the same thing over and over so you look for more interesting perspectives on them :D
10:27	noncom	yeah :D
10:27	noncom	sounds like we can make a library for that
10:28	mungojelly	isn't there a doubly linked list around here you should ask for if you want cheap inserts. i don't know how to ask for it i just remember rich hickey or someone saying doubly-linked lists are something we get.
10:29	justin_smith	,(defn vinsert [e index v] (apply conj (subvec v 0 index) e (subvec v index)))
10:29	clojurebot	#'sandbox/vinsert
10:29	justin_smith	,(vinsert 8 1 [1 2 3 4])
10:29	clojurebot	[1 8 2 3 4]
10:29	justin_smith	sweet!
10:30	justin_smith	mungojelly: sounds like finger trees
10:30	mungojelly	ok fine i will google finger trees
10:30	justin_smith	that vinsert works, but is O(n) with the size of (count v) - index
10:31	justin_smith	where fingertrees are log or something
10:34	noncom	justin_smith: please remind me, you were saying it is possible to lay effects on sampled instruments in overtone... is that by re-routing the synth output through a fx and into the output
10:34	noncom	?
10:34	justin_smith	yes
10:34	mungojelly	ok i think i sorta understand what a finger tree is now, but i'm not entirely grokking how that lets you make a persistent double-list
10:35	mungojelly	this overtone thing sounds fun maybe i should move that up my list of things to look at
10:35	noncom	cool, sounds as straight as any DAW, not sure why I was thinking too much about it
10:36	noncom	mungojelly: sure, it's pretty awesome actually
10:36	sobel	overtone is somewhat powerful but there are some areas you're totally on your own
10:37	justin_smith	noncom: in my experience it takes a while for all the routing and stuff to be intuitive, especially when you don't have a pretty antialiased rendered picture of the "wires" and "processing units" as if they were physical objects in a studio
10:37	justin_smith	noncom: and then there's a log of people who still have problems even with the logic of routing the physical objects...
10:37	justin_smith	but it's basically just plumbing
10:37	justin_smith	s/log/lot
10:38	justin_smith	noncom: true story - functional program first appealed to me because it follows the same cause and effect rules that audio processing gear does
10:39	justin_smith	noncom: that is, good code is only effected by its input, and you should be able to reason about what any subgraph does independently of the chain
10:39	noncom	yes, this is so true. actually, sound making in this way is functional programming in disguise!
10:40	mungojelly	i think we talk a lot about these things as pure ideal concepts but really they're more aesthetic
10:40	justin_smith	except for reverb - you have to cheat a little bit for things like reverb :P
10:41	mungojelly	like around here there's lots of talk about being functional, oh we should be functional, what do the functions do, they advance the state of The Thing, oh what's in the thing, a bunch of states sending messages to one another, objects. but at least you can rewind them when they fall over the same as usual. ;)
10:41	justin_smith	mungojelly: it's not just aesthetic - it's a set of rules for abstractions that compose well for the pragmatic reason that you want your code to be easy to think about
10:41	noncom	well, delay then too needs some cheating, but i think this can well be tied with functional programming
10:41	justin_smith	and it turns out that there is an aesthetics to things that follow that logic, sure
10:42	justin_smith	noncom: yeah, I mean really even filters have a phase (time) shift, but yeah, big picture it's functional or something very close to it
10:42	mungojelly	but what i mean is that things can so easily be put inside of one another in these systems, that you can only know the style of something by looking at the style of all of its details
10:43	noncom	yeah
10:43	justin_smith	mungojelly: ideally you shouldn't put state inside something funcitonal - it's OO where you hide the details on the inside
10:43	xtrntr	hi, trying to copy this code and make it work
10:43	xtrntr	http://programming-enchiladas.destructuring-bind.org/rm-hull/6857333
10:43	justin_smith	haha, funcitonal
10:44	xtrntr	i'm not sure how does the web server render the canvas
10:44	xtrntr	document-ready?
10:44	justin_smith	xtrntr: the server does not render anything
10:44	justin_smith	the browser renders the canvas
10:44	mungojelly	there's that old saying about how every system that's not lisp ends up having a poorly implemented poorly documented lisp in it, but also i think it goes the other way around, the pure functional programs all write imperativeness into themselves somewhere in order to do that.
10:44	xtrntr	justin_smith: ah
10:44	justin_smith	mungojelly: as long as it's real imperative and not OO, you're fine
10:45	xtrntr	xtrntr: sorry, i'm not very familiar with web programming, which function is the link between clojurescript and the browser?
10:45	noncom	xtrntr: clojurescript is translated into javascript and executed as a plain web page script
10:45	justin_smith	mungojelly: and it's more nuanced than that. Ideally functional code should not contain state, and stateful objects should be at the top level, connected to each other by functional plumbing
10:46	xtrntr	it must be document-ready right? i found it in the jquery docs
10:46	justin_smith	mungojelly: of course in order to compute anything at all, state is going on in registers and such, but the idea is that you can have an effectively stateless interface despite that
10:46	noncom	i find that in the real world, when you go through the levels of the system, it oscillates between OO and FP, morphing
10:46	xtrntr	now i have to link the js or cljs file in my index.html file?
10:46	noncom	xtrntr: iirc document-ready means that all page data was received by your broewser and it is ready to be rendered
10:47	justin_smith	xtrntr: the generated js should be linked, yes
10:47	justin_smith	xtrntr: the cljs compiler will arrange for your -main to be called when the page loads iirc
10:47	justin_smith	xtrntr: you might be able to get more detailed answers from #clojurescript
10:48	noncom	xtrntr: still, why did not you try luminus? :) it would already be clear to you if you've simply examined the code generated by the template
10:48	xtrntr	ah, sorry to bother you guys
10:48	xtrntr	i actually copied the code into luminus, but as a newbie everything seems very strange and unfamiliar
10:48	noncom	a game drawn on a canvas is little more than a simple page script
10:48	xtrntr	i'm ok with lisp syntax, but never did web programming
10:48	xtrntr	into a limunus created project*
10:48	noncom	web creeps me out a little too :)
10:49	noncom	so, then you could simply copy the scripts into the project and let them draw on a canvas that you create
10:50	xtrntr	ah
10:50	xtrntr	i'm not very sure what that means
10:50	xtrntr	so the scripts are located in my src directory, but how do they get loaded into the browser?
10:50	justin_smith	oh man I have so many layers right now - cljs in the browser, interacting with 3.js in the same browser (and sometimes those interactions are a bit odd) then clojure on the server, talking via kafka to another set of clojure servers running onyx to balance tasks, then other clojure servers doing REST style http queries...
10:50	xtrntr	i'm trying to understand how the pieces fit together
10:51	justin_smith	xtrntr: the clojurescript compiler takes your clojure code and turns it into js file(s)
10:51	noncom	justin_smith: wow
10:51	justin_smith	xtrntr: then that js file is loaded into an html page which is served to the client, and the client runs the js
10:51	noncom	xtrntr: also, if you're following luminus template, your source should be under src-cljs
10:51	justin_smith	noncom: yeah, it's kind of wacky
10:52	noncom	justin_smith: i wish i had a job like that...
10:52	justin_smith	noncom it's fun until the deadlines loom...
10:52	noncom	oh deadlines...
10:53	justin_smith	and also, when things break in a system that distributed, figuring out how it broke is like a game of clue
10:53	justin_smith	"It was a reagent component, in the browser, with the websocket!"
10:53	justin_smith	"no, it was the onyx task, in the amazon cloud, with the core.async channel!"
10:54	noncom	actually, that's pretty fascinating
10:54	noncom	then you start thinking if some greater structure can be imposed on things...
10:54	justin_smith	noncom: bugs that I would sort out in a minute or two locally can turn into a thirty minute sleuth job of resuscitating and replaying events from the kafka log...
10:55	noncom	sure, they get lost in the sea of changes
10:55	justin_smith	and of course I as the backend / infrastructure guy am trying to prove the frontend cljs code is broken, and the frontend folks are trying to prove my infrastructure fucked up...
10:55	xtrntr	justin_smith: should i include the document-ready in the same script where the -main function is called?
10:56	justin_smith	noncom: well, the cool thing is that with kafka all messages are stored for a while (and are fully readable as edn data in our usage) so we really can replay and recreate bugs
10:56	justin_smith	xtrntr: why do you need document-ready?
10:56	noncom	interesting
10:56	xtrntr	to draw the maze and stuff
10:56	justin_smith	noncom: kafka is like a hybrid of a logging system and a message queue
10:56	noncom	xtrntr: yeah, document-ready is used if you're programming very bare javascript...
10:57	noncom	xtrntr: if you look at core.cljs, provided to you by luminus, you will see, that it is far simpler
10:57	tmarble	noncom: had crufty *.java files in the tree! Now builds with JDK 6 + mvn2 and JDK 8 + mvn3
10:58	justin_smith	well, that maze example is using document-ready so maybe it has something to do with that design...
10:58	dm3	is there a way to edit and eval source of project's dependencies in Emacs with CIDER? I found how to navigate to a read-only buffer with cider-find-ns...
10:58	xtrntr	do you mean core.clj?
10:58	xtrntr	sorry, i'm trying to learn by copying and pasting
10:59	xtrntr	i'll work backwards from a working example
10:59	noncom	xtrntr: if you're so unfamiliar with web, why don't start small? there's really tonns of web-specific stull to know when coming from non-web world...
10:59	justin_smith	xtrntr: for starters, make sure you have a project that is set up to run the clojurescript compiler
10:59	xtrntr	i thought copying and pasting is the lowest rung there is?
10:59	justin_smith	xtrntr: as dnolen mentioned in #clojurescript, you should probably start with some of the basic clojurescript docs
11:00	noncom	xtrntr: maybe you should try first creating a simple web page and get it rendered, then add some cljs to breathe some life into it. there are innumerable example out there, under 100 loc
11:00	justin_smith	xtrntr: copying and pasting won't help if you aren't even running the right compiler
11:01	xtrntr	you mean the options in my project.clj when you say compiler?
11:01	xtrntr	alright i'll read some stuff before i get back here
11:01	dnolen	xtrntr: working backwards is a huge waste of time IMO. Just read the Quick Start and get the fundamentals down first.
11:01	justin_smith	(inc dnolen)
11:09	xtrntr	i get this error when i try to compile
11:09	xtrntr	Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate monet/canvas__init.class or monet/canvas.clj on classpath.
11:09	xtrntr	but i've included the monet dependency in project.clj
11:10	xtrntr	and the example on the github page uses it no problem
11:10	xtrntr	https://github.com/rm-hull/monet
11:20	oddcully	xtrntr: monet is cljs - the error looks like one from clj?
11:21	xtrntr	ahhh
11:21	xtrntr	sorry that was it
11:21	xtrntr	i was using cljs code in a clj file ...
11:21	xtrntr	._.
11:21	xtrntr	i hope i'm not the first one to make such a mistake
11:22	justin_smith	xtrntr: I think if you slow down and look at some of the basic cljs docs this stuff will be much easier
11:22	xtrntr	okay :)
11:31	mungojelly	yes everything stateful is all bunched up nicely on to a top coordination layer and everything's beautiful-- which is just what makes that stateful layer so effective as a library for the next thing to build on and we're off to the races again :/
11:57	joefromct	if i def a variable in a repl session in a function, can i delete it and try again?
11:57	justin_smith	joefromct: you can just use def again
11:57	joefromct	basically i have a function that tests if a varibale is nil, and if not it def's it
11:57	joefromct	i'm sure there is a more functional way to do this
11:57	sobel	defonce
11:58	sobel	slightly different but may be what you intend
11:58	lodin_	joefromct: Why do you want to do that?
11:58	joefromct	sobel: ah, thanks. I'll look into it.
11:58	joefromct	well, i can't define a spark context into sc twice
11:58	justin_smith	yeah, use defonce for that
11:58	joefromct	a spark context is i guess the session on a cluster, and i'm testing my program "bootstrapping" i guess
11:59	joefromct	ok thank you
11:59	justin_smith	joefromct: well, either defonce, or don't put it in a def at all, and use a proper system building lib like stuartsierra/component
12:00	joefromct	justin_smith: yeah, baby steps, but i'll put that on the research/to-do list.
12:00	joefromct	not sure i totally understand what a system building lib is at the moment.
12:00	sobel	it's so easy to try out libs with clojure. i don't even hesitate if i get a good recommendation here.
12:01	justin_smith	joefromct: the idea is that if you have stateful resources, instead of defining them at compilation time as defs, you can initialize them in a system startup procedure, then pass them to the code that needs to use them via the same startup
12:01	joefromct	justin_smith: simple enough, and makes perfect sense. thanks i'll look into it.
12:01	joefromct	justin_smith: sounds like something a scheme person would love.
12:02	joefromct	or i guess any lisper
12:02	justin_smith	joefromct: among other advantages, you would avoid the problem where if you try to make an uberjar, your top level spark connection will run while compiling the code (which might not be something you want)
12:02	justin_smith	joefromct: pretty much :)
12:03	joefromct	so, i just yanked the text from this irc chat into org-capture and put component as an org-task based on justin_smith's recommendation.
12:04	joefromct	emacs is amazing. i don't need a computer anymore just an emacs machine.
12:04	joefromct	and cider.
12:04	justin_smith	heh
12:24	mungojelly	i just learned defonce yesterday, i'd seen it a few times in the days before that, and i misread it as de-fonce, i was wondering what foncing was and how it removed it, i noticed it was coded defensively so i thought maybe it was a pun on defence
12:25	ane	lol
12:27	joefromct	does anyone have any experience with flambo vs sparkling? What the trade offs are between them?
12:29	sdegutis	Is it common to get the initialized fields of a defrecord all map-like using their keyworded names?
12:30	sdegutis	Like, (:bar (Foo. "this is the bar field"))
12:39	mavbozo	sdegutis, it's common in my usage
12:39	sdegutis	Thanks. Anyone else can add to this?
12:45	eLobato	hi there channel. I was wondering if there are any best practices on how to use clojure.test to test read/write to a file? I'm trying to find some expectations/mock framework but I didn't find anything conclusive, help?
12:54	lodin_	sdegutis: Yes, it is common. But if you use a record you probably have a reason, and you might consider providing a functional API for it via protocols, including stuff that happens to be stored directly in the record. That makes you free to adjust the implementation accordingly, and extend other data that is equivalent in content but not in structure to the protocol.
12:55	sdegutis	lodin_: in this case I'm using defrecord to switch between a live implementation and an in-memory implementation for when running tests
12:56	sdegutis	lodin_: they both conform to an abstract defprotocol which my code uses as if it were the thing itself
12:57	lodin_	sdegutis: Then for "private" code that knows it is working on a particular record, then I think it's perfectly fine.
12:57	sdegutis	Okay that makes sense.
12:57	sdegutis	Since not every record will have that same key.
12:58	lodin_	Right.
12:58	sdegutis	If I want to make it public, I should make a getter for it.. like (uri [this] uri)
12:58	sdegutis	As ugly as it is, that's the right way.
12:58	lodin_	sdegutis: I believe so. Others might disagree.
12:59	lodin_	sdegutis: In practice I often only access record fields in protocols implementations, and then I don't need to use keyword access. To update the record I of course use keywords with assoc etc.
13:00	lodin_	Inside the protocol implementations, that is.
13:00	sdegutis	Thanks.
13:01	lodin_	sdegutis: It great that Clojure lets you start with a map and then transition to a record. That way you don't have to model everything up front, as long as you realize that your old code only works with your "first" record that you then created a protocol for.
13:05	sdegutis	:)
13:10	mavbozo	speaking of defrecord, I just read defrecord docstring again and stumbled on few paragraphs. But currently I am interested in this paragraph: "Two constructors will be defined, one taking the designated fields followed by a metadata map (nil for none) and an extension field map (nil for none), and one taking only the fields (using nil for meta and extension fields). Note that the field names __meta and __extmap are currently reserved and should not be us
13:10	mavbozo	ed when defining your own records."
13:11	mavbozo	what is the example of 1 constructor that is "taking the designated fields followed by a metadata map" ?
13:14	justin_smith	mavbozo: (->Foo 1 2)
13:14	mavbozo	what confuses me again is the next paragraph that describe the factory functions ->TypeName and map->TypeName
13:14	justin_smith	mavbozo: that's what that is describing
13:15	justin_smith	->TypeName is the one that takes the designated fields
13:15	mavbozo	justin_smith, so the "constructor" and "factory function" terms refer to the same thing?
13:16	justin_smith	afaik yes
13:16	justin_smith	well, the constructor is the one that refers to it as a class directly, I thought
13:17	lodin_	justin_smith: What about the metadata map?
13:17	justin_smith	(TypeName. x y)
13:17	justin_smith	lodin_: not sure about that part, is it an optional arg?
13:18	mavbozo	trying (Foo. 1 2 ^{:name :foo}) in the repl throws Unmatched delimiter RuntimeException
13:19	justin_smith	what about without ^
13:19	mavbozo	no matching ctor found for class user.Foo
13:19	mavbozo	IllegalArgumentException
13:22	rhg135	,(do (defrecord Foo []) (Foo. {} nil))
13:22	clojurebot	#sandbox.Foo{}
13:23	rhg135	,(do (defrecord Foo []) (meta (Foo. {:i-has-meta true} nil)))
13:23	clojurebot	{:i-has-meta true}
13:26	rhg135	also takes an extmap, which can be nil
13:27	lodin_	What's in the extmap?
13:28	Bronsa	the extra fields you assoc to a record that weren't declared
13:28	Bronsa	,(defrecord x [a])
13:28	clojurebot	sandbox.x
13:28	Bronsa	,(.__extmap (map->x {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}))
13:28	clojurebot	{:b 2, :c 3}
13:29	rhg135	yup, they are usually hidden
13:30	lodin_	Ah. So map->x looks up what's a field and what's not and effectively splits the map?
13:31	rhg135	theoretically
13:31	rhg135	idk the implementation
13:32	Bronsa	yes
13:32	Bronsa	it actually dissocs the known fields from the map
13:33	mavbozo	ah, so i misunderstood the paragraph. my first try should be (Foo. 1 2 {:name :foo} nil) ;; remove the caret ^ and add nil
13:34	rhg135	yup
13:34	mavbozo	rhg135, Bronsa thank you
13:34	Bronsa	yeah you basically get Record(declared-args) and Record(declared-args, meta, extmap)
13:36	phaseNi	Hello, how do I access member classes from a java class?
13:36	rhg135	Parent$Child
13:37	phaseNi	I must be doing something super wrong, because that isn't working
13:37	phaseNi	(new Parent$Child) should work, correct?
13:37	lodin_	I guess this is here just for the implementation, and that assoc etc make use of it? In user code you can just do (-> (->Foo ...) (with-meta metamap) (into extmap)), right?
13:38	Bronsa	lodin_: yes
13:38	Bronsa	phaseNi: is Parent a fully qualified classname?
13:39	rhg135	java.util.Map$Entry
13:39	rhg135	,java.util.Map$Entry
13:39	clojurebot	java.util.Map$Entry
13:39	phaseNi	Bronsa: BAM! Thanks :)
13:40	Bronsa	phaseNi: importing foo.Bar doesn't import foo.Bar$Baz
13:40	Bronsa	if you want to write Bar$Baz instead of foo.Bar$Baz you'll have to import it
13:41	rhg135	they're essentally different classes alltogether
13:42	phaseNi	Yeah I figured
13:42	rhg135	for naming
13:42	phaseNi	It was $ that I was really missing all this time
13:43	phaseNi	thank you rhg135 and Bronsa
13:43	rhg135	is there better docs for this now
13:44	rhg135	I recall tripping on this
13:44	phaseNi	Actually I found nothing of help
13:45	rhg135	what a bummer
13:45	phaseNi	The interop doc doesn't even mention import
13:45	rhg135	I know
13:46	rhg135	I gess you could read the code
13:46	phaseNi	:P
13:46	phaseNi	now to figure out proxy...
13:47	rhg135	it's not bad
13:47	Bronsa	phaseNi: if you don't need to extend a concrete class you'd rather be using reify than proxy
13:47	rhg135	^!!!
13:48	phaseNi	ohhh
13:48	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:48	phaseNi	nifty
13:48	phaseNi	thanks
13:48	mavbozo	rhg135, clojure-doc.org mentioned it http://clojure-doc.org/articles/language/interop.html#imports
13:48	Bronsa	it has better syntax and better performances
13:49	mavbozo	kudos to clojure-doc.org contributors
13:49	phaseNi	Yeah, I was reading http://clojure.org/java_interop
13:49	phaseNi	it is indeed in the other doc
13:49	rhg135	,(reify Object (toString [_] "a"))
13:49	clojurebot	#object[sandbox$eval25$reify__26 0x116ce57d "a"]
13:51	rhg135	won't anyone think of the performance
13:53	rhg135	I've seen proxy too often in the wild
13:53	Bronsa	really?
13:54	rhg135	ppl new to clojure
13:56	mungojelly	earmuffs means you might change the value of something?
13:56	rhg135	yes, usually dynamic
14:01	justin_smith	mungojelly: specifically that a var can be dynamic in scope
14:03	rhg135	it's just a convention though, right
14:03	mungojelly	yes what i'm reading is a style guide, it wouldn't have to tell you you had to if you had to
14:04	mungojelly	should i really say io! around i/o
14:04	justin_smith	mungojelly: if it would be erroneous to send the same io repeatedly
14:04	justin_smith	or to read more than once for one input
14:04	mungojelly	that makes sense and yet i don't think i've read "io!" in any code yet? maybe i wasn't looking for it yet
14:05	rhg135	but if you don't ppl will be very dissapointed in you to say the least
14:06	rhg135	not use stuff
14:07	mungojelly	i'm glad clojure uses earmuffs for something they're pretty
14:09	rhg135	clojure is aesthetically pleasing
14:10	fantazo	clojure is a lisp. so it must be aesthetically not pleasing. this is the unwritten rule of bullshittery, it must be true!
14:10	justin_smith	fantazo: also, parenthesis cause cancer
14:11	fantazo	justin_smith, and small penises too.
14:11	rhg135	along with c++ is da best
14:12	mungojelly	clojure takes away all those ugly parentheses and instead you get some pretty -> and ->> and way too much knowledge of which things take arguments in which places
14:13	mungojelly	i've heard a lot of "but sequence arguments should go at the end! then it's great!" which is clearly just blaming the victim :p
14:13	rhg135	wrap it all in maps!
14:13	justin_smith	mungojelly: the arg placement order is predictable for sequential and associative args (sadly it is not consistent with string/regex)
14:15	rhg135	knowing the api is nice
14:16	rhg135	makes you more productive in any language
14:20	nooga	ah, that's why I wanted flip-args function
14:20	mungojelly	ok so i was trying to decide between {:grid {[0 0] :a} :tiles {:a {:quality "value"}}} or just {[0 0] {:name :a :quality "value"}} that is whether to put a level of indirection, i guess i'm leaning towards the latter, maybe "make this tile a copy of this other one" would be a better efficiency hack anyway if it needs that
14:21	mungojelly	i think -<><:p seems useful! it seems to be like a joke, but i think that's because you don't realize all the stuff you're used to is just as weird :p
14:25	rhg135	premature optimization
14:36	mungojelly	well i also thought it might be a premature optimization to bother to reduce the datatype to a finished model like that, maybe it should just be a sinkhole of tile insertions
14:37	mungojelly	then i wouldn't have to check anything when you insert tiles or add grids or anything, just i'd have to sort through the updates for the latest news
14:41	rhg135	indirection usually adds power, but lowers performance
14:41	mungojelly	is there a better way to say (filter #(= (first %) [0 0]) coll)?
14:54	mungojelly	so which data structure do i want if i just want to toss a bunch of things shaped like {:xy-grid-pos [0 0] :tile-name "happy tile" :hex-color-string "#00FF00" :time-inserted 987298472938749} into it and then later i want to ask for all the ones where :xy-grid-pos is [0 0]
14:56	rhg135	I'd use a pair of a stack and a lookup table
14:57	rhg135	But I'm not that experienced
14:57	mungojelly	is a stack something we get here that works differently than a vector?
14:58	rhg135	you can use a vector
14:58	rhg135	,(pop [1])
14:58	clojurebot	[]
15:00	rhg135	,( [] (conj 1) (pop) (conj 2 3) (peek))
15:00	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/pop"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/pop"\n :at [clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]\n [clojure.lang.AFn invoke "AFn.java" 28]\n [sandbox$eval49 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval49 invo...
15:00	rhg135	,(-> [] (conj 1) (pop) (conj 2 3) (peek))
15:00	clojurebot	3
15:00	mungojelly	ok yay now i know (peek)
15:01	mungojelly	how many words do you think you need to learn to speak clojure
15:01	rhg135	alor works with lists
15:01	mungojelly	i'm guessing a few thousand
15:01	rhg135	~100ish maybe
15:01	clojurebot	Huh?
15:02	rhg135	imo
15:02	mungojelly	there's something reasonable like that in the core, but then you have to know some libraries to understand the idiom around here, you need to know java even to understand lots of things
15:03	mungojelly	but we live in a world where java is mandatory, so i do know enough of that bull to get by
15:06	rhg135	do you mean words as in english?
15:06	mungojelly	i just mean as in like the human capacity for language
15:06	rhg135	ah
15:06	rhg135	a lot
15:07	mungojelly	sometimes if there's multiple arities of something it only counts as one word because you can understand the pattern and it's not an extra burden, but sometimes it's two ideas and you learn them separately
15:08	rhg135	ideas, more than you should
15:15	sobel	i would not be too hasty in comparing programming languages to spoken languages
15:16	mungojelly	well i have a unique perspective on it as one of the only fluent speakers of lojban, which is the only language in a vast otherwise empty space between
15:16	sobel	no you don't
15:17	sobel	i know several long-time lojban speakers and one of theme is a PhD-EE and we've kinda gone there about languages
15:17	mungojelly	programming languages aren't really computer lanugages they're human languages for talking about computation, so like in terms of number of symbols for instance they're closer to our preferences than a computers
15:17	sobel	i'm open to new ideas but fairly skeptical that there are any in this topic
15:18	sobel	i disagree strongly with your characterization that they are not really computer languages
15:18	mungojelly	there's a general shortage of new ideas on every topic, for a few more years, i'm sure we'll feel very nostalgic about it
15:18	sobel	they do not talk about computation, they represent computation in somewhat human-readable symbols, but the orientation is computing not human communication. that's a fundamental divergence.
15:19	mungojelly	for instance if you say the same thing in clojure we can write various compilers to express that idea in various concrete forms to various virtual machines
15:20	sobel	gotta go
15:20	mungojelly	but the essential thing is its meaning to us, the computation we think it represents, if it turns out it doesn't do what we think it should in an edge case we'll "fix" what the computer understands from it whenever that's practical
15:24	mungojelly	oh ok i was confused, i don't have to choose which data structure i'm talking about, i can write to the sequence interface or the collection interface or whatever and it works with a variety of data structures from clients
16:00	lodin_	justin_smith: Regarding your question about using lenses in Clojure. I just wrote a piece of code where a lens would've been sweet.
16:06	rhg135	what's the recommended way to store state in clojure? (atom huge-structure), {:part-a (ref substructure)}, or else?
16:07	rhg135	the first is convenient but it limits concurrency, the second is I'm not sure
16:32	mungojelly	,(defn latest-tile [grid x y] (->> grid (filter #(and (= (:x %) x) (= (:y %) y))) (sort-by :time) (last)))
16:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/latest-tile
16:32	mungojelly	i feel like i'm saying it wrong when i say "#(and (=" is that wrong?
16:33	lodin_	mungojelly: What would be wrong with it?
16:34	mungojelly	lodin_: i feel like there should be one word that means "filter for where these keys are that"
16:38	lodin_	mungojelly: Write your own contains-map?. :-)
16:38	lodin_	,(defn contains-map [a b] (= (select-keys a (keys b)) b))
16:38	clojurebot	#'sandbox/contains-map
16:39	lodin_	,(defn contains-map? [a b] (= (select-keys a (keys b)) b))
16:39	clojurebot	#'sandbox/contains-map?
16:39	lodin_	Now, #(contains-map? % {:x x :y y}).
16:40	mungojelly	lodin_: i'm just trying to be idiomatic, it's polite and also there are many sensible pretty idioms around here :)
16:41	mungojelly	thanks for the example of select-keys that's just what i've been playing with now
16:43	lodin_	Could use clojure.set/superset? as well.
16:43	lodin_	thinks, were
16:44	dbasch	mungojelly: it sounds like you have the wrong data structure for what you’re trying to do, if you have to do a linear scan and then a sort to find the latest tile
16:45	mungojelly	dbasch: sure well "wrong" as in imperfect, what would you use?
16:45	dbasch	mungojelly: if you’re doing lookups based on coordinates, a map of maps
16:48	dbasch	mungojelly: the point being, if you’re doing this all the time for a large number of things why not have constant-time access to your items
16:51	mungojelly	dbasch: map of maps like {0 {0 {:color "#00ff00"} 1 {:color "#009900"}} 1 {0 {:color "#009933"} 1 {:color "#00ff33"}}}?
16:52	dbasch	mungojelly: yes, where you have constant-time access to color (x, y) instead of having to search
16:53	mungojelly	but then i want it to be like {0 {0 #{{:color "#00ff00" :time 9837487} {:color "#009900" :time 873874}}}} hmm
16:53	lodin_	I have a bunch of delays that can take quite some time to realize. I want to print all realized delays and for that I can use realized? but I also want to wait for those that have been triggered. How would I do that best? (I do not want to trigger any delays unnecessarily.)
16:55	mungojelly	the question is whether the constant time access is worth breaking it up so it's unreadable. but i guess with a tiling system the number of tiles the user wants is, more tiles, mooooooooooooore. so i shouldn't be intentionally slow.
16:59	mungojelly	i don't know the answer to your question but thanks for teaching me "realized?" that's awesome
17:01	rhg135	,(into {} (map (comp (juxt :name :doc) meta)) (ns-publics (the-ns 'clojure.core)))
17:01	clojurebot	{nil nil}
17:01	rhg135	meh!
17:01	dbasch	mungojelly: you may want the set to be a sequence ordered by time, unless you’re going to be mostly checking for contains?
17:02	rhg135	,(into {} (map (comp (juxt :name :doc) meta)) (vals (ns-publics (the-ns 'clojure.core))))
17:02	clojurebot	{primitives-classnames nil, +' "Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Supports arbitrary precision.\n See also: +", decimal? "Returns true if n is a BigDecimal", restart-agent "When an agent is failed, changes the agent state to new-state and\n then un-fails the agent so that sends are allowed again. If\n a :clear-actions true option is given, any actions queued on the\n agent that were bei...
17:03	mungojelly	dbasch: i'm not trying to tune it to be performant in any way, it's mostly supposed to be easy to handle, the use case i'm targeting is the beginner who's about to write (* cell-size x) for the zillionth time, my toy gives you the tiles so you can play on top of the tiles
17:03	rhg135	it helped to read it thouroughly for me
17:12	lodin_	I guess I want future-done? except delay-done?.
17:12	hiredman	delays don't do that
17:13	hiredman	a delay only runs when it is forced, and forcing a delay blocks until it is done
17:13	lodin_	hiredman: Hence the problem. :-)
17:13	hiredman	a future and future-done? is exactly what you want
17:13	lodin_	hiredman: future runs it, even if no one wants it.
17:13	hiredman	so you should be using futures and not delays
17:14	lodin_	Nope. I don't want to run anything until requested.
17:14	hiredman	05:13 < lodin_> hiredman: future runs it, even if no one wants it.
17:14	hiredman	oh, I misread that
17:15	lodin_	So the point of delay is precisely to only run what is requested, and cache the result.
17:15	ZimaBlue	future inside a function? "start working in another thread but only when someone asks you to". If multiple derefs possible, make the future memoize?
17:15	hiredman	lodin_: my take on this is, your situation is extremely unlikely to be unique, so if the functionality doesn't seem to match up with what you are doing, everyone else is solving it a different a way
17:16	lodin_	ZimaBlue: I don't follow.
17:17	hiredman	ZimaBlue: you could put a future in a delay
17:17	lodin_	But how would I query the future inside the delay ...?
17:17	hiredman	deref the delay
17:17	ZimaBlue	disclaimer I'm new to clojure and haven't been here for the whole conversation, but it sounds like you want to have the behaviour of "run in another thread and don't block, but only when someone specifically asks you to"
17:17	ZimaBlue	and I thought a future inside a function would do that
17:18	ZimaBlue	maybe it's inside a delay =/
17:18	lodin_	hiredman: Oh, you mean that I do two derefs.
17:18	hiredman	well you do a single deref to get the future, and then you can check to see if the future is done
17:18	lodin_	The delay creates the future and returns it. Then I deref again. If I want to query I deref the delay, and query the future.
17:18	lodin_	That works.
17:52	phorse	Does anyone have experience converting large sql tables into excel docs? I'm using docjure and on a table with ~150,000 rows it hits the GC threshold and chokes.
17:58	noncom\|2	phorse: maybe you can first dump it into csv with korma?
17:59	noncom\|2	justin_smith: hi, are you here?
17:59	noncom\|2	phorse: if even korma will choke, then maybe do it in chunks, like, by the id or sorts
18:02	phorse	I'm using yesql at the moment - does korma have csv conversion built in?
18:04	justin_smith	noncom\|2: hello
18:04	noncom\|2	phorse: i doubt it has csv built-in, but wo knows
18:05	phorse	Ok, so csv is basically a long string, as opposed to writing a long xml file.
18:05	noncom\|2	justin_smith: hi! have you worked with secretary + reagent.session ?
18:05	phorse	Theoretically then, I don't need to hold the whole thing in memory at once, right?
18:05	noncom\|2	phorse: yes
18:06	justin_smith	noncom\|2: I used secretary but ended up replacing it with a home-brewed router
18:06	justin_smith	noncom\|2: I don't think I have used reagent.session
18:06	phorse	Thanks, I'll play with that for a bit and see what I can see.
18:06	justin_smith	even xml can be streamed, if you try hard and believe in yourself, it's just trickier
18:07	noncom\|2	justin_smith: alright, then another little question, do you have an idea, in a single-page app, if i have a subpage to view an entity and i want to let user view several entities, i suppose i should let him open several pages or will it go against single-page?
18:07	noncom\|2	if, of course, this question makes any sense to you :)
18:08	justin_smith	noncom\|2: I would make that "page" just be a component that can be sucked into a [:div] for reagent in a for loop
18:08	justin_smith	or are you thinking multiple tabs
18:08	noncom\|2	well, the for loop will make a list and multiple tabs just require to render them to tab components, right?
18:09	justin_smith	right, generate a tab in each iteration of the for comprehension
18:09	noncom\|2	very cool
18:11	noncom\|2	thank you :)
18:19	lodin_	hiredman: I just found out that realized? block on delays if realization has begun, which makes sense I guess. I don't actually want that behavior, so the future in delay solution works well.
18:24	lodin_	justin_smith: Did you see my lens comment above? I rewrote it to use megakorre/glasses (even though glasses is a snapshot release), and it was indeed pretty.
18:25	justin_smith	lodin_: no, I missed that
18:26	lodin_	justin_smith: You asked me the other day if I thought lenses were useful in Clojure, and just a moment ago I wrote some code that would benefit from a lens.
18:28	noncom\|2	lenses are cool when you can put them into use
18:50	pseudonymous	Is there a way to disable leiningen's auto-update mania ? I would've thought that once all plugins were stored in ~/.m2 it wouldn't try to re-download everything
18:50	justin_smith	pseudonymous: are you using snapshots?
18:51	justin_smith	nothing that isn't a snapshot should be changing versions on you without your help
18:52	pseudonymous	Nope. I'm not. I've tried to package the entire program up into a docker container where 'lein deps' was run prior - so the deps do reside inside the container itself.
18:53	justin_smith	could it be a profile difference looked for different deps?
18:56	pseudonymous	justin_smith: shouldn't think so, until recently I only had a single profile (:dev) -- I'm in the very early stages of packaging this thing up
18:57	justin_smith	are you using a plugin like lein-ring that adds dependencies?
19:00	pseudonymous	justin_smith: Yup, I am, 3 plugins of which lein-ring is one of them. But lein-ring etc are fetched when I build the docker container (at which point I run 'lein deps' inside it)
19:03	pseudonymous	Interestingly it does add a few additional things, but nowhere the number which it tells me it's fetching (of which quite a few were libraries I've seen it download during the container build process)
19:19	pseudonymous	justin_smith: do you perchance have a lein project.clj which has a production and a dev profile which you use ? I think I must be mkaing a mistake somewhere (launching with 'lein with-profile prod ring server' - yet dev-only dependencies are fetched)
19:22	justin_smith	pseudonymous: the reaosn I ask is that lein-ring has different deps duiring jar creation
19:26	pseudonymous	justin_smith: I'm admittedly a bit lost there - I was naively hoping that by using lein I could be blissfully unaware of anything related to jars (very much why I'm not attempting the überjar method)
19:32	justin_smith	pseudonymous: lein-ring introduces deps, so if you do a different task with lein-ring it might just pull in different deps (other plugins do this too)
19:33	justin_smith	pseudonymous: the reason to do uberjar is that way you don't have to worry about whether lein goes and looks for more deps at runtime - because at runtime there is no lein, just the jvm and your uberjar, the deps are already there
19:34	pseudonymous	justin_smith: just another point of variation I would've loved to avoid. 2x because I've been in jar-hell many a times in years back when dealing with Java. Jars to me are like RPM dependency hell of the mid-nineties ^^
19:35	justin_smith	pseudonymous: you are using the jvm, there will be jars. Uberjar creation is more predictable than using lein in production is.
19:35	pseudonymous	But OK, I guess I'll need to take a deep breath, and figure out how in the world I can accomplish an überjar. I'm definitely too sleepy for that right now.
19:35	justin_smith	pseudonymous: "lein uberjar"
19:35	justin_smith	that's it
19:36	justin_smith	then java -jar your.uber.jar
19:36	pseudonymous	Well.. there must be a reason for the lein-ring plugin, right ? In the absence of that, I'll need to setup an entrypoint of some sort
19:36	justin_smith	lein ring uberjar
19:36	amalloy	lein ring fabricates an entry point for you
19:37	justin_smith	or lein ring uberwar if you want to run in a container
19:37	pseudonymous	Oh god, more JVM lingo. The beast rears its head
19:38	pseudonymous	I'll give it a whirl tomorrow :) I'm thankful for the suggestions (and patience!)
19:38	amalloy	~justin_smith is an agent of the beast
19:38	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
19:38	sobel	oh noes, jvm lingo
19:39	sobel	i gotta say, kudos to whomever decided it wise to overload the basic zip file for the jar spec
19:39	sobel	and basically knock off the tar cli
19:40	sobel	for all the gripes people have had creating and managing jars, they have no clue what hell they've been saved from by jars
19:42	justin_smith	~justin_smith
19:42	clojurebot	justin_smith is sitting on a throne of flies.
19:42	justin_smith	haha
19:43	pseudonymous	sobel: you might say that, but 80% of my time programming servlet, JSP and whatever else we were dragged through during university was actually spent feeding the beast various jar files and seeing version differences among our group crash whatever example app of the week we were toiling away at. It's by far the least pleasurable environment I've ever come across (npm, pip, gem etc comes to mind)
19:53	justin_smith	pseudonymous: yeah, putting multiple people's projects into one runtime and expecting deps to be a sane thing is probably futile. But if it's a single project with lein managing things, in my experience that can work out pretty well.
19:54	pseudonymous	justin_smith: Seems do-able. The Luminus project's extensive documentation make it seem pretty easy (They really nailed it documentation-wise, superb job!)
20:06	creese	Has anyone got instrumentation working with New Relic?
20:51	kavkaz	What's up everyone
20:54	justin_smith	fixin some distributed systems
20:57	kavkaz	Just going to continue on my project now. Trying to find the right music for me to listen to... I've been kind of down and it's hard to find the music that's gonna fit me right
20:59	kavkaz	I may have found it (: