#clojure – 2015-08-24

2015-08-24

02:31	amalloy	TEttinger: j.u.regex.Pattern/quote
02:31	TEttinger	(inc amalloy)
02:31	lazybot	⇒ 294
02:44	Kneiva	Yay, lazybot is back.
03:24	deg	What is an idiomatic/efficient way to generate, e.g. (1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, ...) from (0, 3, 4, 9, ...)? That is: my input is a sequence of integers, unbounded but sorted, representing the positions that should be 1 in my output.
03:29	oddcully	,(let [there? #{0 3 9}] (map there? (range 10))
03:29	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
03:29	oddcully	oho
03:30	oddcully	,(let [there? #{0 3 9}] (map there? (range 10)))
03:30	clojurebot	(0 nil nil 3 nil ...)
03:30	opqdonut	nice
03:32	deg	But, my input is potentially infinite.
03:33	opqdonut	then you need to type out the recursive lazy-seq definition yourself
03:34	deg	I'm not sure what you mean.
03:35	deg	I think I need to take advantage of the fact that the list is sorted. Naively, in an imperative language, I would iterate the integers, and check if each one matched the head of the input list. If not, continue; if yes, output the value and pop the head of the input list. But, I'm not sure how to write that elegantly in Clojure.
03:36	opqdonut	(defn f [ind inds] (if (= ind (first inds)) (cons 1 (lazy-seq (f (inc ind) (rest inds)))) (cons 0 (lazy-seq (f (inc ind) inds)))))
03:36	opqdonut	you recursively define a lazy seqnence
03:36	opqdonut	with that definition, for example (take 20 (f 0 [0 3 4 9])) evaluates to (1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
03:37	opqdonut	in general the functional equivalent of a loop that has variables x, y, z is a recursive function with arguments x, y, z
03:37	deg	Thanks. I need to wrap my head around that for a minute, but it looks good.
03:37	opqdonut	and returning a lazy sequence corresponds to an imperative generator (e.g. using python's yield)
03:38	opqdonut	just indent the code nicely and it should be fairly obvious
03:38	opqdonut	"inds" is the list of indexes for 1s, "ind" is the current index we're at
03:38	gilliard	opqdonut: nice.
03:39	opqdonut	I just banged out that function in one go, it's quite natural once you've done this sort of thing a couple of times
03:40	opqdonut	code would probably be more efficient if one used repeat and concat instead of cons
03:41	deg	Yup, I see it now. By, using repeat, you mean to look at the size of the gap, rather than iterating over all the intermediate values?
03:41	opqdonut	yep
03:42	opqdonut	hmm
03:42	deg	Yup. For my purposes, that extra efficiency is not needed, and would probably make the code less readable. But, point taken.
03:44	opqdonut	btw here's one more approach:
03:44	opqdonut	,(let [inds [0 3 4 9] intervals (map - (rest inds) inds)] (mapcat #(cons 1 (repeat (dec %) 0)) intervals))
03:44	clojurebot	(1 0 0 1 1 ...)
03:45	opqdonut	needs some additional code to take care of the position of the first 1
03:47	deg	Not bad! A little bit harder for me to grok than the first one, but still understandable. The difference is that (at my current level of experience) your first version is immediately readable; the second would require me to add some comments in order to understand it later.
03:49	opqdonut	yeah, I find it that for non-trivial tasks it's clearer to write out the recursion instead of gluing together sequence functions
03:50	deg	Yup. I'm not used to lazy seqs today, because I'm coming back to Clojure after nearly a year away. But, in general, I always have trouble scanning complicated combinations of sequence functions.
03:51	deg	What would you say is the community consensus for which approach is more idiomatic?
04:54	ely-se	do people actually use core.typed?
05:08	vijaykiran	ely-se: I didn't see enough usage in the wild
05:12	ely-se	"Type Error (saftcof/fridge.clj:24:4) Unannotated var clojure.core/update"
05:12	ely-se	bleh
05:15	TEttinger	ely-se: is it updated to clojure 1.7?
05:15	ely-se	update-in gives a similar error anyway :p
05:18	ely-se	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/wiki/clojure.core-Annotations
05:19	ely-se	yes, rewriting it to use assoc works
05:22	ely-se	ugly but worth it
05:33	ely-se	it already caught a bug I just wrote :p
05:51	newpm	Hello
05:57	newpm	I've recently taken over a team that develops SaaS apps in java and flex. I haven't coded in about 10 years, but even when I did, it was simple stuff like implementing quicksort in C etc. Given that I'm going to be working with a whole bunch of devs and testers, I'd like to learn a new programming language - one that helps me understand programming
05:57	newpm	, but from a non C/Java POV (so I can have the pleasure of relearning programming as well). Do you gurus have any recommendations for me?
05:57	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: but in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: but in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: but in this conte...
05:59	TEttinger	newpm: clojure's a good very-different kind of language
06:00	newpm	Yes. I've been fascinated by functional programming paradigms - I've heard people say great things about it, esp from a foundational perspective.
06:00	TEttinger	other choices that might be useful in a similar way to Clojure would be haskell, possibly erlang, or maybe in a different functional approach, one of the newer science-y languages like Julia
06:00	newpm	I just don't want it to be TOO removed from what my team does and thinks in terms of programming philosophy
06:00	TEttinger	yeah if you're on the JVM, Clojure has great integration
06:01	newpm	I am posing the same questions in those two other channels, TEttinger. Ideally, I'd spend a month on each language and decide for myself but I don't know if I have that time
06:01	tdammers	if you're looking for an easier transition, I hear people use Scala with some success
06:01	TEttinger	,(doto (java.util.TreeMap.) (.put "a" 1) (.put 8 "b"))
06:01	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Long"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Long"\n :at [java.lang.Long compareTo "Long.java" 50]}]\n :trace\n [[java.lang.Long compareTo "Long.java" 50]\n [java.util.TreeMap put "TreeMap.java" 560]\n [sandbox$eval48 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eva...
06:01	tdammers	it's not as nice from a FP point of view, but the transition can be a little less painful
06:02	TEttinger	,(doto (java.util.TreeMap.) (.put "a" 1) (.put "b" 8))
06:02	clojurebot	{"a" 1, "b" 8}
06:02	TEttinger	huh, it is statically typed even with erasure
06:02	TEttinger	I'm not a huge fan of scala
06:03	tdammers	me neither, but I've heard success stories of people getting it into shops that were previously deeply rooted in Java
06:03	gilliard	TEttinger: Because the treemap is trying to sort its keys and long.compareTo(string) doesn't work.
06:03	tdammers	something like clojure or, gasp, Haskell, wouldn't have flown
06:04	TEttinger	it seems like you either go all-in on the functional stuff and have to deal with a mountain of complex APIs, or you go to the simpler OOP stuff and basically have slightly slower java with worse IDE integration
06:04	TEttinger	(in scala)
06:04	tdammers	in all fairness, if you want IDE integration, it's near impossible to beat Java
06:05	TEttinger	did you mean C#, the language that is borderline unusable without VS? :P
06:05	jeaye	Who says so?
06:05	TEttinger	there is XS and monodevelop now
06:05	TEttinger	but it's such a huge difference working with large files in VS
06:06	TEttinger	jeaye: if you wanted to find all usages in a C# project in vim?
06:06	TEttinger	all usages of a particular method overload
06:06	jeaye	Yup, can do.
06:06	TEttinger	how?
06:06	tdammers	back when I was still using C#, I settled for using VS for most stuff, and hooking vim into it for mass edits
06:06	clojurebot	with style and grace
06:07	TEttinger	in VS that's ctrl-k r
06:07	newpm	That is another additional overhead i would like to ideally avoid - learning ohw to use vim or emacs :)
06:08	TEttinger	clojure works well with IntelliJ IDEA's Cursive plugin
06:08	TEttinger	your team may want to use Eclipse or IntelliJ
06:08	jeaye	TEttinger: You're familiar with vim, I hope; it has a _very_ extensive plugin community with thousands of plugins across many languages.
06:09	jeaye	TEttinger: Aside from project-based completion (including external references, etc), there is functionality for the whole suite of refactoring tricks, snippets, etc. All you'd want.
06:09	TEttinger	I don't know what those plugins do or if any will, say, erase my file if I press the wrong key
06:09	jeaye	hah
06:09	jeaye	Well, if you're not a vim user, you'd likely think that way. Still, my point isn't to get you to use vim/emacs/whatever. My point is just that your claims about the state of editing C# are uninformed.
06:10	jeaye	Or misinformed, anyway.
06:10	ely-se	I already love core.typed.
06:10	TEttinger	does it have breakpoint debugging for C#?
06:10	TEttinger	does it have breakpoint debugging for Clojure?
06:10	ely-se	I hope it won't turn out to be a disaster.
06:10	oddcully	TEttinger: who say, that cursive is not raining nukes on some country while you type?
06:11	TEttinger	as long as it's like murderer alley, sure cursive go right ahead
06:11	ely-se	TEttinger: can it handle Unix line endings?
06:12	TEttinger	I think VS can. I've never encountered issues with that outside of the stupidest programs like notepad
06:13	jeaye	TEttinger: Not sure about either since 1) I don't need the first; 2) I'm too new to clojure to've needed the second. Vim has a slime-like plugin, slimv, which is certainly usable (not gonna compare it to emacs, the proper lisp editor).
06:14	jeaye	I've enjoyed using it for CL work, anyway.
06:14	TEttinger	ah ok
06:14	newpm	thanks everyone!
06:48	cfleming	oddcully: TEttinger: As far as I'm aware, Cursive does not rain nukes on any country while you're typing. If you believe this to be the case, please file an issue in the tracker.
06:56	oddcully	cfleming: that was a joke and not aimed at cursive. each and every piece of software has the potential of wrecking havoc on your computer. intellij plugins are not more or less safe than vim/emacs/... plugins
06:56	cfleming	oddcully: I know, my response was a joke too :-)
06:58	cfleming	If Cursive actually were raining nukes, I'm not sure an issue in the tracker would be an appropriate response level, especially given how long it takes me to fix issues.
06:58	oddcully	what if the server with the issue tracker is the target of the nuke?
07:01	cfleming	That would be sneaky. I'm not sure if Github issues are adequately distributed.
07:07	pseudonymous	While technically working in a repl, I have a question (maybe even a few) - after much experimentation, I've found that (require 'path.to.clj-file)(in-ns 'path.to.clj-file) at least allows me to refer to the functions defined within. However, now I can't access general (core?) functions such as doc. Is there a tutorial or something which covers working with the repl, namespaces & such ?
07:19	kwladyka	pseudonymous, use (require 'namespace :reload-all)
07:19	kwladyka	pseudonymous, and (namespace/foo ...) or (use namespace) if you preffer
07:31	the-kenny	There is no support for :pre and :post in `defprotocol', right?
07:31	the-kenny	I would like to add some constraints to protocol functions, applying to all implementations.
08:00	pseudonymous	kwladyka: Also found out that ns points to my current namespace and by going back to the initial NS via in-ns all is well :)
08:04	SigmundL	hmm slack group too? lot's of messaging apps now :-)
08:09	kwladyka	I wrote http://clojure.wladyka.eu/posts/2015-08-24-how-to-improve-algorithm-speed.html connected with https://github.com/kwladyka/chess-challenge about how to improve algorithm speed in Clojure. I am sharing that with you and i will be very grateful if you can give me feedback about article.
08:09	kwladyka	Anyway where can i share article like this about Clojure?
08:10	kwladyka	pseudonymous, for me my solution is much more comfortable, but i also started with in-ns at first day in REPL ;)
08:10	kwladyka	especially intellij remember history of commands and you can easy run them again when you open your project. It is much more usability then.
08:24	shrayasr	Hello everyone
08:24	shrayasr	I'm having a little problem understanding and taming timestamps
08:24	shrayasr	is anyone around to help?
08:24	shrayasr	(i'm using clj-time)
08:25	oddcully	~ask
08:25	clojurebot	The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
08:27	shrayasr	the server i'm hosting on is in the GMT timezone.
08:27	shrayasr	but I want to store timestamps in another timezone (Say X)
08:27	shrayasr	I'm able to get the string representation of the timestamp in the "X" timezone
08:28	shrayasr	But to insert into the DB (regular jdbc)
08:28	shrayasr	I need it to be in the "timestamp" type
08:29	shrayasr	which I can get via the clj-time.coerce/to-sql-time function
08:29	shrayasr	But then the coerce/to-sql-time function doesn't take the time zone into consideration
08:29	shrayasr	Sooooo. I'm stuck
08:30	the-kenny	Let me check how I handled it
08:30	shrayasr	Sounds great, thanks @the-kenny
08:32	shrayasr	I see that we can start the JVM with a specified timezone, Any reason I shouldn't be doing this?
08:32	shrayasr	I assume if I do this, then it is straightforward for me
08:33	the-kenny	shrayasr: Hm, my code just extends jdbc/ISQLValue and calls `clj-time.coerce/to-timestamp'. That doesn't seem to handle timezones either
08:34	the-kenny	I'm quite sure I have a snippet which does some more (by manually creating the value with `ISQLParameter')
08:35	the-kenny	That might have been postgres-specific though
08:39	the-kenny	shrayasr: By extending ISQLParameter for org.joda.time.DateTime (or some other class/record) you should be able to set the type of the PGobject to 'TIMESTAMP WITH TIME ZONE' and the value to some string lile: "2004-10-19 10:23:54+02"
08:40	the-kenny	as seen here: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/datatype-datetime.html#AEN5777
08:44	en590	clojure!
08:50	gfrederi`	clojure!
08:59	dstockton	clojure!
08:59	snowell	clojure?
08:59	clojurebot	clojure is a language to use if you want to up your game
08:59	en590	well that's exactly what I want to do
09:00	en590	i've found two books that look good to learn it, 'living clojure' and 'clojure in action 2nd edition'
09:00	en590	are these good
09:02	pseudonymous	So I finally came to a point where I need to reload something. While (require '[<my namespace> :as <short-hand>] :reload-all) doesn't yield any error, I still can't access anything from the NS (not even the old functions). I see references to "clojure.tools.namespace.repl" but including it fails (Could not locate.....) - what do people do ? Reopning the REPL constantly sucks
09:05	en590_	sorry i d/c
09:17	en590_	I'm on linux what environment do you all use to develop in?
09:17	en590_	like ide or whatever
09:18	akabander	I've been using IntelliJ with the Cursive plugin. I'm normally an Emacs/command-line coder, but IntelliJ has some nice features.
09:19	schmir	en590_: I'm using emacs, but that may be a bit too hard when you're learning clojure at the same time.
09:19	schmir	emacs with cider
09:20	akabander	I'm on Linux and OS X, our target platform is Linux-y though.
09:31	kwladyka	en590_, i also recommend intellij
09:31	kwladyka	with own shortcuts i super great
09:31	snowell	I use Light Table, FWIW
09:32	kwladyka	light table is crap unfortunately, it has so big potential but if i know author abandon project to care about new one
09:32	kwladyka	and for today light table doesn't work enough good for me
09:34	snowell	I tried getting IntelliJ/Cursive set up once and hit problems
09:35	snowell	I'm not against trying it again...
09:35	cfleming	snowell: Let me know if you have problems, I'm always interested in trying to make it easier.
09:36	akabander	The only issue I had with Cursive was that it didn't seem to be able to create keymappings for the structural editing commands, I had to create them manually.
09:37	cfleming	akabander: You should be able to - not sure when you tried it, but that's been in there for a while now (https://cursiveclojure.com/userguide/keybindings.html)
09:38	akabander	cfleming: I gather you work on Cursive? The pages are pretty coy about who the author(s) are.
09:38	cfleming	akabander: I do - I'm the only developer.
09:39	akabander	Oh, well... Thanks for your efforts, it's a terrific plugin and makes my days pretty pleasant!
09:39	cfleming	Thanks! That's always good to hear.
09:43	kwladyka	snowell, what kind of problems?
09:44	snowell	I don't really remember. I'm actually trying it again atm
09:45	cfleming	snowell: Cool, I'll be around for a couple of hours if you're having issues.
09:46	snowell	It may have been as dumb as Light Table's rainbow parens were brighter
09:46	snowell	I am a fickle man :)
09:47	cfleming	Fortunately I recently changed Cursive's rainbow parens to be quite garish :-)
09:48	snowell	It doesn't seem to want to read my project.clj. This could be because it starts with a let instead of defproject
09:48	cfleming	That shouldn't be a problem, but it is a problem if you're doing things like slurping a version.txt file or something like that?
09:49	kwladyka	if you want use intellij cursive i strongly recommend shortcut for slurp forward and barf forwards
09:50	akabander	I get weird looks when I ask people if their editor can slurp and barf.
09:50	snowell	I'm unfamiliar with barf
09:50	snowell	I thought it was spit
09:50	akabander	I think it's the same thing but harder to confuse with split
09:51	cfleming	They're two different things. Slurp/Barf refer to paredit (structural editing) and slurp/spit are functions for reading/creating files.
09:51	akabander	#dadjokefail
09:51	cfleming	Ba-doom-tschhh
09:57	snowell	Yeah, cfleming, it must have been me being stupid about colors. Looks like it's working OK outside of yelling at me that it can't load my project.clj
09:58	snowell	I'll keep using it and report back on its awesomeness
09:58	cfleming	I also accept reports on non-awesomeness :)
09:58	cfleming	Are you able to show me your project.clj?
09:58	snowell	Probably not, though I did just submit a report through the IDE
09:59	snowell	It's just (let [blah blah] (defproject normal "stuff"))
09:59	cfleming	Weird, that should work. I'll see if I can reproduce with a simple case.
10:01	snowell	At the base, it seems to be a NPE
10:01	cfleming	Are you using lein-sub?
10:02	shrayasr	the-kenny: Had to go AFK. Sorry about that.
10:03	snowell	No?
10:04	cfleming	snowell: Can you paste the stacktrace to refheap?
10:07	en590_	i love function programing so much
10:09	snowell	cfleming, You know what, I might actually be able to see what it's NPE'ing on
10:09	en590_	have you guys completed most of 4clojure? this site is amazing
10:10	wasamasa	feels like a third to me
10:14	en590_	could anyone reccomend a resource for learning about functional programming in general?
10:15	shrayasr	en590_: I found this 3 part series to be a lovely intro to FP: http://miles.no/blogg/why-care-about-functional-programming-part-1-immutability
10:18	en590_	ok neat thank you
10:18	en590_	clojure is 1 of the most beautiful languages ive seen
10:18	en590_	i guess thats true for all the lisps
10:19	snowell	cfleming: Looks like the problem is with a :repositories key in defproject
10:20	cfleming	snowell: That should work - lots of Cursive users are using custom repos
10:20	cfleming	Is it a problem with GPG or something similar?
10:23	shrayasr	en590_: No problem. Enjoy :)
10:24	kwladyka	What questions did you have on clojure interview?
10:26	en590_	wait there are real clojure jobs?
10:26	jeaye	hah
10:26	jeaye	Quite a few.
10:26	justin_smith	yes, I'm a full time clojure dev, there are many others around here
10:27	justin_smith	dozens, there are dozens of us!
10:27	akabander	I'm a professional Clojure dev -- convinced my boss that my piece of the project should use Clojure...
10:27	snowell	I do clojure at work despite the efforts of many of our clients :)
10:27	en590_	dang the world is a great place
10:28	akabander	And at some point I'll probably need a minion or two, or somone at my level.
10:29	jeaye	akabander: May I PM you?
10:29	snowell	cfleming: https://www.refheap.com/108673
10:30	snowell	Sorry about the delay, had to clean it up / anonymize it :D
10:30	rsenior	en590_: job market is good for Clojure folks
10:31	en590_	yah i believe it the language is just a joy
10:32	arkh	if compiling clojurescript with leiningen + cljsbuild works with all :optimzations except for :none, what could I be doing wrong? I've tried including a <script> reference to goog/base.js as well as taking everything made in target/cljsbuild-compiler-0/ and putting it in the webservers js folder so relative link references would be happy. Looks like the
10:32	arkh	browser is just loading my js, base.js and deps.js only so far
10:33	snowell	cfleming: Grr. The NPE should have been obvious, as I recently deleted JARS_HOME. I feel very bad that I'm getting paid to code and can't see that
10:33	cfleming	snowell: Ah :-)
10:34	snowell	Of course fixing that led to a different error: https://www.refheap.com/108674
10:34	cfleming	Sometimes it's hard to see the wood for the trees, for sure.
10:34	kwladyka	do you know good video (prefer) / article about how to use macros? But not about how to use it technically, how to use it to write super code :)
10:34	cfleming	snowell: Is JARS_HOME an absolute path?
10:35	snowell	Yeah, it was. And I deleted that folder
10:36	en590_	I'm a linux noob trying to install leiningen. it says Place it on your $PATH where your shell can find it (eg. ~/bin)
10:36	en590_	how do I do this? I downloaded the lein script to my desktop
10:36	cfleming	snowell: So Cursive currently has an issue (to be fixed shortly) where it runs lein in-process, so CWD is always set to somewhere in the IntelliJ bin directory
10:36	en590_	do i do 'sudo copy lein.txt ~/bin'
10:37	gilliard	en590_: you don't need sudo
10:37	cfleming	If you're slurping or calling File. or something similar, it won't work properly because the CWD is bad.
10:37	snowell	Well it's not a relative path
10:37	gilliard	en590_: make sure there is a directory ~/bin first, then "mv ~/Downloads/lein ~/bin". ~ is just shorthand for your home dir.
10:37	en590_	i'm confused what does the ~ stand for
10:37	cfleming	I suspect there's something like that going on, but I can't see it from your project file. I've never seen that negative bytes error before.
10:38	gilliard	en590_: You can do "ls ~" etc
10:38	kwladyka	ok i found, it looks good enough http://www.lispcast.com/when-to-use-a-macro
10:38	snowell	It might be that some of the jars I need only existed in JARS_HOME
10:38	en590_	I don't see a /bin in my home folder
10:38	en590_	there is one in the root folder
10:38	cfleming	I'd expect a FileNotFound or similar in that case, though.
10:39	gilliard	en590_: There often isn't one on a new install. "mkdir ~/bin" will create one.
10:40	snowell	Well I'm getting that error just doing `lein deps` on the CLI. So I don't think it's a cursive problem
10:40	en590_	ok got it working
10:40	en590_	thank you
10:40	cfleming	snowell: Googling around, that message does seem to be a glorified FNF
10:40	en590_	linux is very cool
10:42	cfleming	snowell: Thinking about it, you're likely to have a problem in Cursive since you won't be able to set env vars where lein can see them.
10:42	cfleming	When it's run in-process, I mean.
10:42	cfleming	I'll add that to my list of things to fix - I'm actually planning a major lein update to fix all this sort of thing soon.
10:46	snowell	Well, something must have just been screwy in my local env. I reverted the changes, updated jars-home to exist, and now it works :/
10:47	snowell	Thanks for at least making me look critically at it though, and for the willingness to help out :D
10:47	cfleming	No worries, glad it's working!
10:47	cfleming	I'm going to get all those lein fixes in in probably the release after next - perhaps a month or so.
12:11	en590	is (conj '(1 2) 3) equally efficient as (cons '(1 2) 3)
12:11	justin_smith	en590: it's (cons 3 '(1 2)), the second arg to cons must be sequential
12:12	justin_smith	en590: cons is what conj ends up invoking for lists (you'll notice that conj on vectors behaves differently)
12:14	justin_smith	en590: depending on your use case, you might want a vector rather than list (which is part of why it is good to use conj rather than cons, so that remains flexible)
12:14	justin_smith	but yes, conj on a list and cons on a list should be the same in perf
12:26	en590	hey i have a problem in my irc client whenever my internet craps out for a few seconds then returns, the irc doesnt connect again
12:26	en590	this has happened in hexchat and also quassel irc
12:27	philth-irssi	en590, probably a client setting.
12:27	philth-irssi	iirc, x-chat had a "Number of reconnet attempts" option.
12:28	philth-irssi	don't know about hexchat or quassel tho'
12:31	en590	ok idisabled ping timeout stuff
12:31	en590	maybe it works
12:32	en590	why is (= 1 1.0) false but (== 1 1.0) true
12:33	oddcully	(doc ==)
12:33	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the equivalent value (type-independent), otherwise false"
12:33	snowell	en590: because == is type-independent
12:34	en590	yeah makes sense just seems like the two should be switched
12:34	en590	i expected opposite behavior
12:35	ely-se	please no :(
12:35	ely-se	IMO = on different types should even fail with an exception
12:36	rhg135	, (= '(1) [1])
12:36	clojurebot	true
12:37	ely-se	:'(
12:37	philth-irssi	, (= 1 1.0)
12:37	clojurebot	false
12:37	rhg135	Sad indeed
12:37	philth-irssi	, (= [1] '(1))
12:37	clojurebot	true
12:37	philth-irssi	wtf?
12:38	akabander	Because they are equivalent seq's?
12:38	philth-irssi	, (== [1] '(1))
12:38	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :at [clojure.lang.Numbers equiv "Numbers.java" 208]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Numbers equiv "Numbers.java" 208]\n [sandbox$eval141 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval14...
12:39	oddcully	(= 1N 1)
12:39	oddcully	erm
12:39	oddcully	,(= 1N 1)
12:39	clojurebot	true
12:39	philth-irssi	Stop this madness.
12:39	oddcully	,(= 1M 1)
12:39	clojurebot	false
12:39	philth-irssi	bigints are ints?
12:40	philth-irssi	, (type 1M)
12:40	clojurebot	java.math.BigDecimal
12:40	philth-irssi	Ooh
12:41	philth-irssi	(= (type 1) (type 1N))
12:41	philth-irssi	,(= (type 1) (type 1N))
12:41	clojurebot	false
12:42	agarman	is it appropriate to ask datomic questions here?
12:43	snowell	You'd probably have better luck in #datomic :)
12:44	agarman	snowell: good call...it's a mix of Clojure + datomic, but I'll ask there first.
12:47	en590	i'm in the repl and when i tried to do (clojure.set/union #{:a} #{:b})
12:47	en590	i got the error ClassNotFoundException clojure.set java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:366)
12:47	en590	do i have to load in this module
12:48	philth-irssi	(require 'clojure.set)
12:48	oddcully	en590: yes require it
12:48	philth-irssi	,(require 'clojure.set)
12:48	clojurebot	nil
12:48	philth-irssi	,(require 'clojure.set) (union #{a} #{b})
12:48	clojurebot	nil
12:48	philth-irssi	,(do (require 'clojure.set) (union #{a} #{b}) )
12:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: union in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: union in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: union in this...
12:49	en590	neat thank you
12:49	philth-irssi	,(do (require 'clojure.set) (clojure.set/union #{a} #{b}) )
12:49	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context"\n ...
12:49	philth-irssi	ffs
12:49	philth-irssi	anyways it works in real repl.
12:49	philth-irssi	,(do (require 'clojure.set) (clojure.set/union #{"a"} #{"b"}) )
12:49	clojurebot	#{"a" "b"}
12:49	philth-irssi	Ah-ha!
12:53	iwo	hey, anyone here familiar with prismatic schema? I'd like to define a schema that says a value must be a function, I can't seem to find a way to do this
12:54	iwo	I was imagining just something like: {:f s/Fn}
12:54	iwo	(i.e. map must have a key :f with a value that's a function)
12:54	rhg135	(s/=>...)
12:55	rhg135	There's a => function to make function schemas
12:56	iwo	ah okay, so I need to define the arity of the expected fn?
12:57	rhg135	I think so
12:57	akabander	,(doc =>)
12:57	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
12:57	iwo	thanks!
12:58	iwo	looks good.
12:58	rhg135	Np
12:58	ely-se	clojurebot: in that case I want my money back.
12:58	clojurebot	No entiendo
12:58	ely-se	D:
12:58	rhg135	clojurebot is lacking
12:59	snowell	clojurebot: Don't listen to him
12:59	clojurebot	Excuse me?
12:59	rhg135	Did you try turning off and on again?
13:00	en590	,(+ 1 1)
13:00	clojurebot	2
13:00	ely-se	,(System/exit 0)
13:00	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "denied"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.SecurityException\n :message "denied"\n :at [clojurebot.sandbox$enable_security_manager$fn__849 invoke "sandbox.clj" 69]}]\n :trace\n [[clojurebot.sandbox$enable_security_manager$fn__849 invoke "sandbox.clj" 69]\n [clojurebot.sandbox.proxy$java.lang.SecurityManager$Door$f500ea40 checkExit nil -1]\n [java.lang.Runtime exit "Runtime.java" 1...
13:00	ely-se	rhg135: I tried but failed.
13:00	en590	,"clojurebot is a good bot"
13:00	clojurebot	"clojurebot is a good bot"
13:01	philth-irssi	Aw
13:01	ely-se	her :p
13:01	rhg135	I'm a he :-P
13:02	rhg135	Ambiguity
13:02	philth-irssi	What do they sandbox clojurebot with?
13:03	rhg135	Jvm sandboxing iirc
13:03	ely-se	oooh
13:04	ely-se	I see. :p
13:04	ely-se	philth-irssi: the JDK has facilities for that.
13:04	rhg135	The pronoun has two possible targets
13:04	rhg135	Because English
13:05	philth-irssi	rhg135, ely-se, Ah, thanks!
13:06	ely-se	who is Ah?
13:06	rhg135	It may also use something else. You can check the source.
13:06	philth-irssi	rhg135, ely-se, "Ah, thanks!"
13:06	philth-irssi	ambiguity :P
13:06	rhg135	English!
13:06	philth-irssi	Yea, I just found the github.
13:06	ely-se	the misinterpretation was intentional :p
13:07	rhg135	We should just speak lisp with English words
13:07	ely-se	(ok)
13:07	rhg135	It's a midway point
13:08	philth-irssi	you mean lithp
13:08	ely-se	(= :cool rhg135)
13:08	rhg135	(not (take-off this))
13:13	ely-se	I want to implement a data structure that wraps a set together with a collection of (function, map) pairs that can be used to find elements in the set quickly (like RDBMS indices)
13:18	justin_smith	ely-se: that sounds a lot like a hash-map
13:18	ely-se	no, it's different
13:18	wasamasa	if your hashmap doesn't allow to find elements quickly, URDOINITRONG
13:18	ely-se	wait, I'll implement it
13:19	justin_smith	ely-se: typically the right way to do pairs with quick lookup in clojure is a hash-map
13:19	justin_smith	not to say that's the entirety of what would be implemented... but it should be the core of it
13:20	ely-se	yes, I know, but that's not what I'm looking for
13:21	ely-se	a hashmap has only a single index
13:21	ely-se	and you have to make sure you consistently manage the keys
13:21	justin_smith	what does "consistently manage the keys" mean?
13:22	wasamasa	sounds like something a programmer shouldn't be bothered with
13:22	wasamasa	most likely staying with one data type for the keys
13:23	justin_smith	ely-se: I'm thinking most of us don't actually understand what you are trying to do here
13:23	ely-se	again, let me implement it
13:26	wasamasa	a quick search indicates that using more than one index on a database can be problematic with regards to performance
13:26	wasamasa	because the way they usually go at it is looking for all matches for the first index, looking for all matches for the second index, then combining these and returning the results
13:27	tcrayford____	Query planners though
13:29	hiredman	,(doc clojure.set/index)
13:29	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:29	hiredman	jerk
13:30	hiredman	anyway, clojure.set/index exists, and even if you don't use it, a read through the source should be useful
13:30	philth-irssi	,(do (require 'clojure.set) (doc clojure.set/index))
13:30	clojurebot	"([xrel ks]); Returns a map of the distinct values of ks in the xrel mapped to a set of the maps in xrel with the corresponding values of ks."
13:30	philth-irssi	Ta-da
13:32	hiredman	clojure.set/index can build single key and multi key indices, and you can generally keep all the indices in a single map
13:34	en590	in a 'let' expression why are the bindings done in a vector and not a map?
13:34	justin_smith	en590: they are ordered and can refer to previous bindings
13:34	justin_smith	en590: also maps only allow keys to happen once, let bindings allow re-binding that shadows a previous key
13:35	justin_smith	,(let [a 0 b (inc a) b (inc b)] b)
13:35	clojurebot	2
13:35	justin_smith	there's two reasons that would not work with a hash-map
13:36	en590	ok very neat thank you
13:36	oddcully	,(inc justin_smith)
13:36	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: justin_smith in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: justin_smith in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol:...
13:36	oddcully	omg
13:36	justin_smith	without the ,
13:36	oddcully	i am so used to that not working...
13:36	oddcully	(inc justin_smith)
13:36	lazybot	⇒ 287
13:37	oddcully	yeah i knew, then i forgot
13:37	oddcully	now i unforgot
13:37	en590	(inc justin_smith)
13:37	lazybot	⇒ 288
13:38	en590	i love the inc function it is very explicit
13:39	rhg135	Gasp, you passed him
13:39	en590	but yeah justin that was an intense answer it was like perfect
13:40	en590	my mind just expanded
13:40	ely-se	justin_smith: https://ideone.com/c4FGGC
13:40	justin_smith	ely-se: I hope you saw hiredman 's remarks above
13:41	ely-se	oh
13:41	ely-se	hiredman: cool I'll look at it
13:41	ely-se	that has no insertion, though
13:43	hiredman	they are clojure datastructures
13:43	ely-se	you can use arbitrary functions as keys, add and remove elements, etc
13:43	hiredman	insertion is indexing a single record or records, and then merge-with into the existing db
13:43	ely-se	s/keys/indices/
13:44	ely-se	brb; dinner
13:44	hiredman	as written, no, you cannot use arbitrary functions as keys
13:47	en590	How much clojure do I need to get hired as a junior clojure dev?
13:48	en590	and what kind of project would be good to show I know the language decently
13:49	sdegutis	How does reader macros like #db/id[:db.part/db] work?
13:49	sdegutis	Do they expand at compile time?
13:50	justin_smith	sdegutis: get ready to have your mind blown
13:50	sdegutis	I noticed that putting #db/id[:db.part/db] in a loop always resolves to the exact same constant at every interval in the loop.
13:50	justin_smith	sdegutis: they are expanded when reading
13:50	sdegutis	justin_smith: no that can't be it it's too simple and makes too much sense
13:50	rhg135	Lol
13:51	sdegutis	justin_smith++
13:53	en590	how long have you all been clojuring i want to be amazing at this language
13:53	justin_smith	three or four years I think
13:53	sdegutis	en590: You will be amazing at it in 10 years by definition.
13:53	sdegutis	en590: There's a law of physics that says it takes 10 years to be amazing at a thing.
13:53	en590	there is just so much cool stuff I feel like I learn so much with a lisp language
13:54	sdegutis	Also I've probably been doing it 1 day short of justin_smith's duration, I think I started the day after him.
13:54	sdegutis	Which means by definition I'll always know 1 less fact about Clojure than justin_smith.
13:54	en590	What kind of projects did you work on starting out?
13:54	en590	I'm reading a book about the basics but I can't think of anything to actually make
13:54	sdegutis	en590: don't worry the high fades and then you sober up and realize Lisp is really just JavaScript all along.
13:54	justin_smith	en590: I got hired to work on a rapid application development web platform
13:54	sdegutis	justin_smith: wait just like me?
13:55	justin_smith	I guess so? must have been something going around back in 2012 or so?
13:55	sdegutis	justin_smith: does this.. does this mean we're twins?
13:55	justin_smith	soul-mates, surely
13:55	sdegutis	justin_smith: ok so what's our bank PIN btw
13:56	justin_smith	hunter2
13:56	justin_smith	don't tell anyone
13:56	sdegutis	don't worry it just shows up as ******* to everyone else
13:57	sdegutis	only I can see it cuz soulmates
13:57	rhg135	I thought it'd be justin
13:57	sdegutis	Ah crap, I didn't realize the reader-macro thing means I can't use it in a helper function.
13:57	rhg135	Or your bod
13:57	rhg135	Dob*
13:57	sdegutis	rhg135: its from a website that had quotes from IRC, its before your time, see IRC was Slack back before there was Slack
13:58	rhg135	sdegutis: tempid is a function
13:58	sdegutis	ah right then I'll just keep using (tempid)
13:58	sdegutis	thanks
13:58	rhg135	Np
13:59	sdegutis	Datomic has changed so much in the last 2.5 years, I need to restructure all my code now to take full advantage of all the new awesomeness.
14:00	sdegutis	Most (if not all) of my helper functions are completely obsoleted by new Datomic features.
14:00	sdegutis	(Although not really "new" anymore.)
14:00	rhg135	I didn't use datomic till last year
14:01	rhg135	I feel like I wasted my mind's db budget
14:06	en590	,(def a (fn [] (str "hey"))
14:06	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
14:07	en590	,((fn [] ("hi")))
14:07	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval47$fn__48 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval47$fn__48 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval47 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval47 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE...
14:07	en590	why does this not work and I have to put str before the "hi" ?
14:07	en590	is it trying to use "hi" as the function
14:07	akabander	Because there's no function named "hi"
14:08	en590	what if I just wanted to return "hi"
14:08	philth-irssi	remove the parens
14:08	philth-irssi	,((fn [] "hi"))
14:08	clojurebot	"hi"
14:08	philth-irssi	you can't call a string.
14:09	philth-irssi	str is a function you can call, with the arg "hi".
14:09	philth-irssi	which return "hi"
14:09	en590	yeah thank you
14:09	justin_smith	en590: the misunderstanding here might have been what parens do
14:09	justin_smith	in most languages they group things, in clojure they invoke things
14:09	en590	yah i get it know i think, first element in parens is the function
14:09	justin_smith	right
14:09	philth-irssi	(inc justin_smith)
14:09	lazybot	⇒ 289
14:10	justin_smith	or a macro, or special form - something you can invoke at least
14:10	snowell	lazybot is back!
14:10	spieden	is there a command line nrepl client with fast startup? (non-jvm)
14:11	spieden	thought maybe that's how gretch worked but now i can't find it -- maybe spelling wrong
14:11	justin_smith	spieden: grench
14:11	spieden	ah!
14:11	spieden	gratsi
14:11	justin_smith	np
14:15	en590	clojure is like a dream language
14:15	en590	u dont even had to do math you just inc stuff
14:16	en590	,(inc (inc 0))
14:16	clojurebot	2
14:16	justin_smith	,(nth (iterate inc 0) 1000000)
14:16	clojurebot	1000000
14:17	luxbock	I'm writing a library that wraps a native library via JNA, and to safeguard myself from segfaults I'm keeping track of the state of the native library in an atom, so that my functions can throw if they get passed arguments that are in conflict with the state
14:17	en590	is that lazy iteration or whatever?
14:17	luxbock	now stylistically, I'm wondering if I should create a record for the library, where the field points to the atom
14:17	justin_smith	en590: iterate generates a lazy seq of repeated calls to the first arg, with the second arg as the first input
14:18	luxbock	or if my CLJ side API functions should just be referring to the atom itself
14:18	en590	,(nth (iterate dec 0) 100)
14:18	clojurebot	-100
14:18	luxbock	like on one hand it feels right that functions that need to make calls to the library should take something (i.e. the record) as their arguments
14:18	luxbock	but on the other hand it feels a bit silly to have a record that can only ever be instantiated once
14:19	en590	,(iterate dec 0)
14:19	clojurebot	(0 -1 -2 -3 -4 ...)
14:19	en590	ok i get it
14:20	en590	(iterate count (iterate inc 0))
14:20	en590	,(iterate count (iterate inc 0))
14:20	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
14:20	en590	haha get heaped java
14:20	justin_smith	en590: a fun example from the other day ##(iterate #(apply map list %) '((a b)(c d)(e f)))
14:20	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
14:20	justin_smith	hrm
14:21	justin_smith	,(iterate #(apply map list %) '((a b)(c d)(e f)))
14:21	clojurebot	(((a b) (c d) (e f)) ((a c e) (b d f)) ((a b) (c d) (e f)) ((a c e) (b d f)) ((a b) (c d) (e f)) ...)
14:23	en590	wow apply and map in the same function
14:23	en590	i cant handle that
14:24	rhg135	You soon will
14:25	bja	(partial apply ....) is another good one
14:25	en590	so i'm applying a mapping of the list of the argument in the code above?
14:26	bja	you're taking in a sequence of things you want to turn into a sequence of lists
14:27	bja	map is will take from multiple sequences at a higher arity
14:27	en590	so map does the (a b)(c d)(e f) part and apply does the(a c e)(b d f) part?
14:28	bja	so stuff like `(map list (range 3) (range 3))` => '((0 0) (1 1) (2 2))
14:28	bja	yeah
14:28	en590	,(map '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
14:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
14:29	en590	,(map list( '(1 2 3) ) '(1 2 3))
14:29	bja	(map f [a1 b1] [a2 b2] [c1 c2]) gives you '((f a1 b1 c1) (f a2 b2 c2))
14:29	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval49 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval49 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval49 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler ...
14:29	justin_smith	en590: you almost had it, too many parens though
14:29	bja	,(map list (range 3) (range 3))
14:29	clojurebot	((0 0) (1 1) (2 2))
14:30	justin_smith	,(map list '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) ; en590
14:30	clojurebot	((1 1) (2 2) (3 3))
14:30	en590	oh map takes its first argument as another function without any parens ok neat
14:31	en590	,(apply list '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
14:31	clojurebot	((1 2 3) 1 2 3)
14:31	bja	yeah, map just takes a fn, either one that already exists on one that you specify inline via (fn ...) or #(...)
14:31	sdegutis	rhg135: datomic is excessively cool
14:32	sdegutis	en590: the fundamental rule of all lisp syntax is dead simple: a(b,c,d) = (a b c d), that's it
14:32	sdegutis	en590: now you fully understand all of lisp.
14:32	sdegutis	everything else about lisp is identical to javascript.
14:33	en590	,(inc 1)
14:33	clojurebot	2
14:33	en590	,(inc(1))
14:33	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval169 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval169 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval169 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 69...
14:34	sdegutis	en590: (1) is the same as 1() in another language, which makes no sense
14:34	sdegutis	en590: do you understand that?
14:34	akabander	Trying to invoke a literal again?
14:34	en590	yes i get it now
14:34	sdegutis	awesome
14:34	sdegutis	im not joking, thats literally all there is to understanding lisp
14:34	akabander	(map inc '(1 2 3))
14:35	akabander	,(map inc '(1 2 3))
14:35	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
14:35	en590	,(map list '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) ;ok i dont quite get this one
14:35	clojurebot	((1 1) (2 2) (3 3))
14:36	en590	i understand map with one function argument and one data argument
14:36	en590	but not with one function argument and two data arguments
14:36	justin_smith	en590: with two or more lists, the function will get two or more args
14:36	akabander	With multiple collections, map invokes fn with each element of each list as arguments.
14:36	sdegutis	en590: two data arguments acts like a list-comprehension in python/haskell
14:36	sdegutis	en590: it'll do (list 1 1) then (list 2 2) etc
14:36	akabander	,(map vec '(1 2 3 4) '("a" "b" "c" "d"))
14:36	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/vec>
14:36	sdegutis	,(map vector [1 2 3] [:a :b :c])
14:36	clojurebot	([1 :a] [2 :b] [3 :c])
14:37	akabander	Yeah, thanks
14:37	sdegutis	that should demonstrate it a little clearer
14:37	akabander	That's what I was going for :)
14:37	sdegutis	akabander: oh sorry I didn't mean clearer than what you said
14:37	sdegutis	I meant clearer than '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)
14:37	akabander	Clearer or not, yours ran :)
14:37	sdegutis	:P
14:38	sdegutis	I often get vec and vector mixed up in #clojure
14:38	akabander	We were both shooting for the same thing, you just aimed better.
14:38	sdegutis	Because in production code I more often use (->> ... (vec))
14:38	en590	,(map + '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
14:38	clojurebot	(2 4 6)
14:38	sdegutis	So it's a habit to go for that one.
14:38	akabander	(Is it too obvious I'm American? :)
14:38	sdegutis	akabander: haha is it that I am?
14:38	en590	,(apply vector [1 2 3] [:a :b :c])
14:38	clojurebot	[[1 2 3] :a :b :c]
14:38	sdegutis	hold on let me finish my red bull then ill ask again
14:38	sdegutis	en590: apply is different, I try to avoid it as much as possible
14:38	akabander	Next I'll use a football metaphor
14:39	en590	so apply does the entire first argument to the entire second ?
14:39	sdegutis	I wonder...
14:39	akabander	Yeah, I think of apply as "unlisting" the arguments
14:39	justin_smith	en590: apply takes any number of args and the last must be a collection
14:39	sdegutis	,(reduce str ["this " "is " "a " "sentence."])
14:39	clojurebot	"this is a sentence."
14:39	sdegutis	haha!
14:39	justin_smith	en590: the first arg is used as a function, the rest are taken as args, with every element of the final collection appended
14:40	sdegutis	The only time I've ever needed apply in production code is for (apply = [...])
14:40	sdegutis	Which is totally cheating but meh.
14:40	justin_smith	,(apply str "hello" [", " "world"])
14:40	clojurebot	"hello, world"
14:40	sdegutis	(I consider any Clojure code that can't be done just as simply in Haskell to be cheating.)
14:40	justin_smith	sdegutis: I use apply when I know what the first arg will be, and want to build a collection for the rest of the args
14:41	sdegutis	justin_smith: got concrete example?
14:41	irctc	hello everyone!
14:41	justin_smith	generalize "first" to "first N" actually
14:41	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:41	sdegutis	I've used (apply concat ...) a few times, sadly.
14:41	irctc	i have an issue and i was wondering if anyone had a few minutes to help?
14:41	oddcully	irctc: please go ahead
14:41	en590	,(apply + "one plus one is " (+ 1 1))
14:41	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long"\n :at [clojure.lang.RT seqFrom "RT.java" 535]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT seqFrom "RT.java" 535]\n [clojure.lang.RT seq "RT.java" 516]\n [clojure.lang.RT cons "RT.java" 655]\n [clojure.core$cons__4090 in...
14:41	sdegutis	irctc: you'd have way better chances if you just ask without asking to ask
14:41	sdegutis	irctc: otherwise we're likely to say "no" or something, when otherwise we would have just answered
14:42	justin_smith	sdegutis: anywhere where I would otherwise use partial, but it's an operation I am only doing once, so I just use apply instead
14:42	sdegutis	justin_smith: ahh interesting
14:42	irctc	thank you! so im having an issue compiling uberjars using leiningen v 2.5.1
14:42	justin_smith	en590: + does not work on strings in clojure
14:42	sdegutis	Hmm. I'm using Lein 2.5.2
14:42	sdegutis	Works fine for me. Upgrade I guess.
14:42	sdegutis	Also try `lein clean`.
14:42	irctc	for some reason, when i am using the 'lein run' command, all my dependancies are included properly
14:42	oddcully	also the last argument is no seq
14:42	justin_smith	en590: also the last arg to apply must be a collection
14:43	en590	is there a reason for that?
14:43	akabander	,(apply str "one plus one is " (+ 1 1))
14:43	irctc	i have both profiles :debug and :uberjar the exact same
14:43	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long"\n :at [clojure.lang.RT seqFrom "RT.java" 535]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT seqFrom "RT.java" 535]\n [clojure.lang.RT seq "RT.java" 516]\n [clojure.lang.RT cons "RT.java" 655]\n [clojure.core$cons__4090 in...
14:43	sdegutis	justin_smith: also, technically (apply str ...) is faster than (reduce str ...) because of magic.
14:43	sdegutis	I think amalloy_ taught me that.
14:43	justin_smith	sdegutis: not magic, StringBuilder :)
14:43	irctc	There are some external jars that im including in my project that i suspect arent being added to the project
14:43	sdegutis	justin_smith: that's technically magic, i.e. hidden optimizations
14:44	en590	,(str "hi " (str 5))
14:44	clojurebot	"hi 5"
14:44	justin_smith	en590: that's fine, but the last arg of apply must be a collection
14:44	oddcully	,(str "hi" 5)
14:44	clojurebot	"hi5"
14:44	sdegutis	,"hi5"
14:44	clojurebot	"hi5"
14:44	sdegutis	mines shortest what i do i win
14:44	justin_smith	,(apply str "one plus one is" [(+ 1 1)]) ; en590
14:44	clojurebot	"one plus one is2"
14:44	TEttinger	,'hi5
14:44	clojurebot	hi5
14:44	irctc	but anywho, when i attempt to compile an uberjar and run the jar that was created, i get an ExceitionInInInitializerError
14:44	irctc	and its from a ClassNotFoundExceitpion
14:45	irctc	a class that im attempting to use
14:45	irctc	but if i use a normal 'lein run' it works perfect
14:45	TEttinger	irctc: interesting.
14:45	TEttinger	what's your project.clj like? can you put it on refheap?
14:45	irctc	or a 'lein with-profile uberjar run' it works as well
14:45	justin_smith	irctc: also, what is the specific class, that might be helpful as a clue
14:46	irctc	yea one moment
14:46	en590	,(apply + '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
14:46	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :at [clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]\n [clojure.core$_PLUS_ invokeStatic "core.clj" 962]\n [clojure.core$_PLUS_ do...
14:46	en590	whoops
14:46	TEttinger	,map + '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
14:46	clojurebot	#object[clojure.core$map 0x57622de3 "clojure.core$map@57622de3"]
14:46	en590	,(apply + '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)))
14:46	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :at [clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]\n [clojure.core$_PLUS_ invokeStatic "core.clj" 962]\n [clojure.core$_PLUS_ do...
14:46	TEttinger	,(map + '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
14:46	clojurebot	(2 4 6)
14:46	justin_smith	en590: you can't use + on a list directly
14:46	irctc	https://www.refheap.com/108683
14:46	TEttinger	apply takes only one collection too.
14:47	sdegutis	Pop quiz. Given {:nums [1 1] :words {1 "one", 2 "two"}} derive the string "one plus one is two".
14:47	en590	,(apply + 5 '(1 2 3)))
14:47	clojurebot	11
14:47	justin_smith	,(apply map + [[1 2 3] [1 2 3]]) ; en590 compare this to what TEttinger did
14:47	clojurebot	(2 4 6)
14:47	irctc	So its the RTAClient.jar that isnt getting added
14:47	oddcully	or ,(apply + 1 '(2 3 4))
14:47	TEttinger	irctc: and this jar isn't available on clojars or maven central I imagine?
14:47	irctc	but if i run the project using 'lein run' there are no issues and the libraries classes are accessable and do what they were designed to do
14:48	irctc	TEttinger: no its in house
14:48	justin_smith	irctc: I am suspicious about explicitly putting a jar on the classpath via :resource-paths - is this something you generally have success with in uberjars?
14:49	irctc	also i found this, someone else seems to have had the same problem.
14:49	irctc	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31197792/leiningen-bug-in-producing-uberjars-or-misunderstanding
14:49	en590	,(apply map + [[1 2 3] [1 2 3]]) ;could you explain the steps this takes to work?
14:49	clojurebot	(2 4 6)
14:49	justin_smith	irctc: I think the best fix is to use maven or lein to "install" the jars to your local .m2 cache and then add to :dependencies
14:50	irctc	justin_smith: It has worked so far. Im relatively new to clojure. Is there another way i should be including it?
14:50	justin_smith	irctc: the issue is combining this technique with uberjar, I am not confident that it's compatible
14:51	irctc	justin_smith: So there is some technique within leiningen that allows you to "install" a jar into some directory that will allow you to have it be accessable across the entire system? If so, how would i go about doing that?
14:52	TEttinger	yep, that would be mvn install IIRC
14:52	TEttinger	err, jar hm.
14:52	justin_smith	irctc: yeah, lein-localrepo plugin does it
14:52	justin_smith	irctc: there is also a mvn command that will do it
14:52	TEttinger	https://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html
14:52	akabander	en590: I think (apply map + [[1 2 3] [1 2 3]]) is equivalent to (map + [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
14:53	irctc	justin_smith: Thank you so much! ill give it a shot and if it doesnt work ill head back here and let you know how it goes.
14:53	irctc	TEttinger: thank you as well! ill look into this.
14:53	TEttinger	^ that's the mvn command btw, no problem
14:53	akabander	But I'm probably over-simplifying in my naivate
14:53	justin_smith	akabander: it is definitely 100% the same
14:54	akabander	Yay I got one! :)
14:54	en590	so whenever i apply a map i remove the outer layer of vector?
14:54	TEttinger	akabander: they're very similar. one has one more step it does of course, since it calls apply. but behavior is identical
14:54	justin_smith	the only missing part is that (apply map + [1 2 3] [[1 2 3]]) is also the same - apply allows extra args preceding the final coll
14:55	akabander	Ah yes that detail is important, otherwise more complex things could be confusing!
14:56	en590	(reduce + '(1 2))
14:56	TEttinger	en590: apply takes a function and turns the last argument, which should be some kind of collection, from a collection to potentially multiple arguments to the function. like justin_smith is saying, you can have other args before the last one that also get passed to the function, unaltered
14:56	en590	,(reduce + '(1 2))
14:56	clojurebot	3
14:56	oddcully	en590: for beginners it might be easer to grok the std case: (apply f [1 2 3]) - this does (f 1 2 3)
14:57	TEttinger	,(*)
14:57	clojurebot	1
14:57	TEttinger	,(apply * [])
14:57	clojurebot	1
14:57	ely-se	I should find a nice usecase for Clojure.
14:57	ely-se	Writing software applications for tracking contents of fridges is boring.
14:58	justin_smith	,(apply * nil)
14:58	clojurebot	1
14:58	en590	,(apply + '(1 2 3))
14:58	clojurebot	6
14:59	en590	,(map + '(1 2 3))
14:59	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
14:59	oddcully	,(+ 3)
14:59	clojurebot	3
14:59	TEttinger	ely-se: probably something that would benefit from, say, futures, lots of data operations at once, maybe java interop too
14:59	en590	cool thank you oddcully
14:59	en590	and justin_smith
14:59	en590	and akabander
15:00	en590	and TEttinger
15:00	snowell	en590: apply will give you a value. map will give you a collection
15:00	TEttinger	map, apply, filter, and reduce are pretty central to daily clojure
15:00	snowell	,(map inc '(1 2 3))
15:00	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
15:01	akabander	I am learning too; helping you teaches me. :)
15:01	en590	ah oddcully I see so mapping + to '(1 2 3) is just like list((+ 1) (+ 2) (+ 3))
15:02	en590	but the inc actually does something to each one
15:02	justin_smith	en590: move one paren over, but sure :)
15:02	snowell	Well the + does something too. It adds the value to nil ;)
15:02	ely-se	TEttinger: I'd use Go or Erlang or Haskell if I wanted to do concurrency.
15:02	en590	,(list (+ 1) (+ 2) (+ 3))
15:02	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
15:03	oddcully	,(+)
15:03	clojurebot	0
15:03	oddcully	,(+ 1)
15:03	clojurebot	1
15:03	oddcully	,(+ 1 2)
15:03	clojurebot	3
15:03	en590	(* nil nil)
15:03	en590	,(* nil nil)
15:03	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause nil\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.NullPointerException\n :message nil\n :at [clojure.lang.Numbers ops "Numbers.java" 1013]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Numbers ops "Numbers.java" 1013]\n [clojure.lang.Numbers multiply "Numbers.java" 148]\n [sandbox$eval145 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval145 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.j...
15:03	justin_smith	snowell: it doesn't add to nil though
15:03	en590	,(+ 1 nil)
15:03	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause nil\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.NullPointerException\n :message nil\n :at [clojure.lang.Numbers ops "Numbers.java" 1013]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Numbers ops "Numbers.java" 1013]\n [clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]\n [clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 3640]\n [sandbox$eval169 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval169 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -...
15:03	justin_smith	it's just the arity of + for one arg
15:03	snowell	I thought I might get called on that
15:03	justin_smith	heh
15:03	justin_smith	,(+ :a)
15:03	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Cannot cast clojure.lang.Keyword to java.lang.Number"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "Cannot cast clojure.lang.Keyword to java.lang.Number"\n :at [java.lang.Class cast "Class.java" 3176]}]\n :trace\n [[java.lang.Class cast "Class.java" 3176]\n [clojure.core$cast invokeStatic "core.clj" 338]\n [clojure.core$_PLUS_ invokeStatic "core.clj" 952]\n [c...
15:03	justin_smith	:P
15:04	snowell	,(* 6)
15:04	clojurebot	6
15:04	akabander	Ely-se but what if you want good concurrency support and interop with other JVM languages? Please don't say "Scala".
15:04	en590	that multiplies 6 by 1
15:04	oddcully	,(*)
15:04	clojurebot	1
15:05	en590	1 is the idempotentiaionary value of the * operation
15:05	justin_smith	,(/ 6)
15:05	clojurebot	1/6
15:05	justin_smith	divides 1 by 6
15:05	snowell	My brain exploded when I saw that word. If that's a real word I'm using it every day from now on
15:05	philth-irssi	,(+)
15:05	clojurebot	0
15:05	akabander	Specifically 1 is the identity cofactor of the multiplication operation
15:05	philth-irssi	,(*)
15:05	clojurebot	1
15:05	philth-irssi	:D
15:06	akabander	And 0 is the identity cofactor of the addition operation.
15:06	en590	(+ (+) () ())
15:06	en590	,(+ (+) () ())
15:06	clojurebot	2
15:06	justin_smith	,(> 0)
15:06	clojurebot	true
15:06	en590	lol
15:07	akabander	,(< 0)
15:07	clojurebot	true
15:07	justin_smith	en590: it answers the existential question "is 0 greater than?"
15:07	oddcully	(> 666)
15:07	oddcully	,(> 666)
15:07	clojurebot	true
15:07	justin_smith	,(> :not-even-a-number)
15:07	clojurebot	true
15:08	justin_smith	silliness
15:08	akabander	"(> 0)"... "I'll take late 80s movies for $100, Alex"
15:08	akabander	"(< 0)"... "I'll take late 80s movies for $100, Alex"
15:08	akabander	darn, whiffed it
15:08	oddcully	,(= 42)
15:08	clojurebot	true
15:08	en590	what the shit
15:08	akabander	,(== 42)
15:08	clojurebot	true
15:09	en590	unconsionable
15:09	philth-irssi	Whoa
15:09	TEttinger	,(= Double/NaN)
15:09	clojurebot	true
15:09	TEttinger	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN)
15:09	clojurebot	false
15:09	akabander	,(source =)
15:09	clojurebot	Source not found\n
15:09	oddcully	oh yeah! NaNs arviing. this will be fun
15:10	akabander	But if you look, the definition includes ([x] true)
15:10	akabander	So arity one is always true
15:11	en590	how do you prounounce arity irl
15:11	en590	air ity or are ity
15:11	akabander	Rhymes with parity
15:11	TEttinger	,(let [nan (/ 0.0 0.0)] [(= nan nan) (= nan (/ 0.0 0.0))])
15:11	clojurebot	[false false]
15:11	philth	air-it-tee
15:11	TEttinger	,(let [nan Double/NaN] [(= nan nan) (= nan (/ 0.0 0.0))])
15:11	clojurebot	[false false]
15:11	TEttinger	,(let [nan (identity Double/NaN)] [(= nan nan) (= nan (/ 0.0 0.0))])
15:11	clojurebot	[true false]
15:12	TEttinger	who put that true here?
15:12	akabander	Because a always equals a... Read your Ayn Rand.
15:13	opqdonut	TEttinger: I'm intrigued
15:14	TEttinger	opqdonut: it's a quirk of = and NaN's non-equality-to-self
15:14	TEttinger	= does reference equality for objects, and identity returns a Double in this case
15:15	TEttinger	,(let [nan (identity Double/NaN)] [(= nan nan) (= nan (/ 0.0 0.0)) (== nan nan)])
15:15	clojurebot	[true false false]
15:15	en590	So clojure converts to java then runs in the jvm?
15:15	en590	is that why the error messages are so crazy
15:15	TEttinger	en590, not quite. it does run on the JVM
15:15	TEttinger	it generates the same format that java compiles to
15:15	TEttinger	.class files, what .jar files use
15:16	akabander	,(= Double/NaN Double/NaN)
15:16	clojurebot	false
15:16	akabander	,(let [nan Double/NaN] (= nan nan)
15:16	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
15:16	akabander	,(let [nan Double/NaN] (= nan nan))
15:16	clojurebot	false
15:16	en590	why do the error messages mention java.lang.Number and stuff
15:17	TEttinger	the error messages are so crazy because yes, it's running between java-library-land, clojure-library-land, and your-clojure-code-land
15:17	TEttinger	,(type "hello!")
15:17	clojurebot	java.lang.String
15:17	TEttinger	strings are java strings and can be passed off to java no problem
15:17	en590	will they ever fix it so there are no more crazy java stuff
15:17	TEttinger	that's clojurescript :)
15:17	TEttinger	it has crazy JS stuff instead
15:18	en590	yah was about to ask lol
15:18	en590	i much prefer javascript
15:18	en590	it is a much much smaller language right
15:18	TEttinger	...sorta
15:18	en590	mostly b/c java has tons of libraries ?
15:18	TEttinger	javascript has a lot more oddities at the language level and cross-browser problems
15:18	akabander	But you're better of doing (map? my-thing) than (= (type {}) my-thing)
15:19	en590	yeah i like the javascript oddities
15:19	oddcully	you are the first one then
15:19	TEttinger	yep, if you know javascript you'd find clojurescript rather easy
15:19	en590	it's endearing
15:19	en590	javascript is like little brother who has to support entire internet
15:20	TEttinger	oddcully: heh I like the lua oddities myself. "aww how cute you don't have regexes you have your own little thing that thinks its a regex"
15:20	oddcully	TEttinger: array start with index 1, because that is how we count!
15:20	en590	is clojurescript the exact same syntax as clojure?
15:20	opqdonut	TEttinger: ah, yeah
15:21	snowell	en590: It's not exact, but it's very similar
15:21	en590	it is a superset of clojure for dom stuff?
15:21	TEttinger	there's a subset that works on both, that's cljx right?
15:22	TEttinger	it's sorta its own language, since it has a different runtime. I wouldn't say it's a superset or subset of JVM clojure
15:22	snowell	en590: Clojure: (println "foo"), Cljs: (.log js/console "Foo")
15:22	snowell	It also introduces the wonderful mutability of native JS objects if you want it to
15:22	snowell	Spoiler alert: You really don't want it to
15:22	TEttinger	,(.println System/out "foo")
15:23	clojurebot	nil
15:23	en590	what do you mean mutablity of objects? cant you change them in vanilla js already?
15:23	TEttinger	,(.println System/err "foo")
15:23	clojurebot	nil
15:23	TEttinger	hm
15:23	snowell	TEttinger: I'm sure it's working; you're just getting the return values
15:23	TEttinger	en590: introduces to clojure. clojure has mutable Java objects
15:24	oddcully	,(doto (java.util.HashMap.) (.put "a" 1))
15:24	clojurebot	{"a" 1}
15:24	en590	why does clojure still allow java crap to be used?
15:24	TEttinger	they're harder to access unintentionally in JVM clojure I think
15:25	TEttinger	because there are a ton of java libs
15:25	TEttinger	and java still performs better on certain tasks by a large margin
15:25	TEttinger	(for loops on multi-dimensional arrays come to mind)
15:25	en590	oh so kind of like using c in certain parts of python programs?
15:26	TEttinger	yeah, if C had a library for pretty much everything
15:26	en590	haha
15:26	snowell	en590: Being able to interact with java systems is not a small thing
15:26	TEttinger	pdfs? there are several java pdf libs, just call into one of those like you're writing java or use/make a wrapper
15:26	akabander	If it wasn't for the easy Java interop, I wouldn't have been able to justify Clojure to management.
15:27	snowell	+1 on that, akabander
15:27	snowell	Same with Clojurescript and JS interop
15:27	TEttinger	writing a pdf lib is not a small task, that's something you reallllllly want a lib for if you need it!
15:27	en590_	sorry i d/c
15:28	TEttinger	hey again
15:28	TEttinger	the main reason you want java interop or JS interop is to avoid rewriting non-trivial existing code
15:29	wasamasa	practicality trumps idealism
15:29	TEttinger	we're coders, we need to be practical to get stuff done :)
15:29	akabander	You can always write "pure clojure" if you really want to.
15:32	en590_	yes this makes perfect sense
15:33	en590_	it also allows portions of existing java code to slowly be ported to clojure?
15:33	en590_	or is a complete rewrite generally done
15:33	TEttinger	more commonly, you write a wrapper
15:33	TEttinger	like seesaw is a good example
15:34	en590_	what is a wrapper
15:34	TEttinger	Swing is a massive part of the java standard lib. it's unpleasant to use from java, much less clojure. https://github.com/daveray/seesaw Seesaw makes it very nice to use from clojure, all the hard work is done
15:35	sdegutis	justin_smith: thanks 4 all ur help in here btw all these years
15:36	TEttinger	seesaw makes it so you don't need the crazy anonymous inner class stuff that the java lib expects for things like event handling. you pass a clojure function and it turns it into what the java expects
15:36	TEttinger	it also adds features that swing doesn't have, like selectors to access classes like they're HTML divs with ids and classes
15:36	TEttinger	*to access widgets
15:36	sdegutis	Speaking of which, how is tbaldridge's port of Clojure going?
15:37	TEttinger	pixie? I think it's past the port stage :)
15:38	en590_	ok thanks for the explanation TEttinger
15:38	sdegutis	TEttinger: meaning it's stable or it's nothing like clojure?
15:40	TEttinger	sdegutis: I don't think it's considered stable yet but is definitely starting to move away from direct port stuff (lib is built around transducers from the start, IIRC)
15:40	sdegutis	oh nice
15:40	sdegutis	i'd love to use that for scripting since fast startup
15:41	TEttinger	I should really get back to my Lua Clojure-like idea
15:42	akabander	Anyone have experience creating "isomorphic" libs for Clojure/Clojurescript?
15:43	TEttinger	there's only a handful of properties that I wish clojure had now and doesn't, and "lightning fast startup time" is totally something that should be feasible on a scripting language VM
15:43	wasamasa	what would that even mean?
15:43	wasamasa	cljc?
15:43	TEttinger	cljx?
15:43	akabander	I don't know what it would look like, I think I saw a project that claims to be a module that can be used by both Clojure and Clojurescript transparently.
15:44	TEttinger	yeah, that's one of the things that's become easier with 1.7
15:44	wasamasa	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Reader+Conditionals
15:44	en590_	shouldn't cljs be the exact same as clojure but minus the java stuff and plus the javascript stuff?
15:44	wasamasa	in an ideal world
15:44	oddcully	TEttinger: there is (was) cljsscript-lua - i tried that some time ago and it did not work
15:45	oddcully	TEttinger: something salvageable there?
15:45	wasamasa	en590_: in reality there's a number of differences
15:45	TEttinger	maybe! I was going to try using LuaJIT-lang-toolkit
15:45	wasamasa	en590_: like, it not really having a character type
15:45	TEttinger	https://github.com/franko/luajit-lang-toolkit/
15:45	akabander	wasamasa: I think that's where I should start looking, thanks
15:46	wasamasa	akabander: cljx is a community project, cljc files are the official variant supported in newer clojure releases
15:46	TEttinger	oddcully: this one? https://github.com/raph-amiard/clojurescript-lua
15:47	TEttinger	ah, thanks wasamasa I wasn't clear
15:47	oddcully	TEttinger: i ask, because in some (long time not touched sadly) game stuff i have lua used alot. and the only "repl"-like fealing i had then was beeing able to have glsl shaders to reload
15:47	akabander	cljc yields some interesting results... Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is probably not what I'm looking for.
15:47	wasamasa	akabander: it is shown in the page I've linked
15:47	oddcully	TEttinger: yet seeing the e.g. the grimrock editor had my hopes up, that reloading lua stuff would work too quite reasonable
15:47	akabander	I saw it, just looking around and got a chuckle from the results.
15:48	TEttinger	oddcully: huh, I actually didn't get to the repl part when I worked on my stuff in lua, I could eval lisp strings from lua
15:49	TEttinger	it was uh fast with luajit, despite a really bad interpreter that I screwed up all by myself :)
15:57	bearjack	,(try (+ "1 2 3") (catch Exception e (.getMessage e)))
15:57	clojurebot	bearjack: I don't understand.
15:57	bearjack	Is anyone up on the magic behind catch?
15:58	bearjack	I'm just working through simple cases, but when I try to catch an exception for casting one type to another, no problem.
15:58	kwladyka	bearjack, http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/catch ?
15:59	kwladyka	i mean what is your problem exactly?
16:00	bearjack	I'm trying to send emails. And I'm testing the exception catching on a machine with no sendmail. So I'm getting a nullpointerexception, but no message returned.
16:00	bearjack	Even though when I do it in the repl there's a message
16:00	bearjack	NullPointerException java.lang.ProcessBuilder.start (ProcessBuilder.java:1010)
16:00	bearjack	I'm just confused by what gets caught and what doesn't.
16:01	kwladyka	bearjack, *testing - do you mean clojure.test or manual try use it?
16:01	bearjack	kwladyka, manually trying to use it in the repl
16:03	kwladyka	bearjack, .getMessage is from Java ( http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Throwable.html ) so it works the same like in Java
16:03	kwladyka	i am not it is helping you :)
16:04	irctc	hello again!
16:04	bearjack	I don't know much about java, I was hoping to avoid it. oh well, thanks :)
16:06	irctc	once you have used 'lein localrepo' to create a new entry with the jars you want included, how do you tell leiningen to search your local maven? it seems to only be search ing on central and clojuars
16:07	bearjack	irctc, did you use install? that should put it in your local .m2
16:07	irctc	if i run a 'lein localrepo list' i can see that the items have been added
16:07	akabander	exit
16:07	irctc	bearjack: yes i did
16:07	bearjack	what are you trying to achieve?
16:08	justin_smith	irctc: it will always check your local cache first
16:09	irctc	bearjack: i have some local jars that i need to include into my project. before when i added them within :resource-paths, my application worked properly when i did a 'lein run' but when i attempted to create an uberjar, it would state that some dependancies were missing.
16:09	irctc	heres what my project.clj looks like now
16:09	irctc	https://www.refheap.com/108686
16:10	irctc	i added RTAClient, log4j, and spread using 'lein localrepo install'
16:12	irctc	justin_smith: any ideas? im getting an error that states "could not find artifiact in"
16:13	irctc	justin_smith: is there some particular directory i should be running the install within? i did it from within my project root.
16:15	justin_smith	irctc: you just need to make sure the install can see the jar you want installed
16:16	irctc	justin_smith: what do you mean by the install? and how can i go about doing that?
16:16	justin_smith	irctc: the command that puts it in your local repo
16:17	justin_smith	whether that's lein localrepo or mvn install or whatever
16:17	irctc	so i did that
16:17	irctc	but its saying that it cant be found
16:17	justin_smith	irctc: if you follow a file path mirroring your group/artifact do you find the jar?
16:18	irctc	can i print out the path somehow using localrepo?
16:18	justin_smith	irctc: yes, but it's also a simple transform
16:18	irctc	justin_smith: no idea how to go about doing that
16:19	justin_smith	eg. clojure1.7.jar gets put in .m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.7/clojure-1.7.jar
16:19	justin_smith	since the org/artifact is org.clojure/clojure
16:20	irctc	does .m2 live within the project root repo?
16:20	irctc	or within ~/.lein?
16:20	justin_smith	it is in ~
16:20	kwladyka	somebody know any really good example of using macro? example from real world
16:21	kwladyka	i am talking about practical use not technical side
16:22	irctc	yes it is! figured it out though. i guess it was a simple spelling error -_-
16:22	irctc	now its time to test if an uberjar gets compiled properly
16:22	bearjack	irctc, good show! that's how I solve all my problems
16:23	irctc	YES
16:23	irctc	killed it
16:23	irctc	thank you justin_smith. you are a bro
16:24	snowell	(inc justin_smith) ; Being a bro
16:24	lazybot	⇒ 290
16:26	kwladyka	snowell, in that way i should do something like (def justin_smith (+ 100 justin_smith)) ;)
16:27	snowell	Most of the times he's helped me lazybot has been dead, so I owe him a few myself
16:29	w33t	just btw, this is irctc. gonna stick around for a little while.
16:31	TEttinger	w33t: heh, I guessed it was you from the github username in your project.clj
16:32	TEttinger	kwladyka: a good one is when you have ugly interop and don't want to write it by hand.
16:33	w33t	TEttinger: Yea i really need to get better at hiding my identity. And the user im logged into as on this machine gives you my full name too... im really bad at this whole anonymous thing.
16:34	TEttinger	kwladyka: https://github.com/daveray/seesaw/blob/develop/src/seesaw/event.clj#L30-L32
16:44	kwladyka	TEttinger, so when i want use mix of Java and Clojure and it looks like a monster? :)
16:49	TEttinger	kwladyka, that's a definite improvement when you use it though
16:50	TEttinger	the mapcat in the highlighted section and the ~@ before it means you just saved a ton of manual typing :)
16:55	sdegutis	git is one of those things that does its job and does it well and just keeps silently getting better in the background
17:27	sh10151	Any enlive users here? I'm trying to learn it and I can't figure out how to simplify this repetitive code: http://pastebin.com/edFbc4FH
17:27	sh10151	Basically I have an html "data-key" attribute that I want to match a key in a Clojure map supplying the dynamic data to render
17:28	sh10151	Seems like there should be a way to generate selector/transformation pairs and apply them all at once without hardcoding specific html attribute names
17:43	en590	hi what is the difference between ["a" "b" "c"] and [:a :b :c] ?
17:44	oddcully	"a" is a string, :a is a keyword
17:44	sdegutis	,(:a 2)
17:44	clojurebot	nil
17:44	sdegutis	haha silly clojure
17:44	en590	what are keywords used for in vectors or lists
17:44	oddcully	,(name :a)
17:44	clojurebot	"a"
17:44	hiredman	http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-Keywords
17:45	sdegutis	,({:a 2} (:a 2))
17:45	clojurebot	nil
17:45	oddcully	keywords are used as keywords. using it in a vector like this has no relevance
17:45	oddcully	but keywords can be applied like functions on maps ,(:a {:a 1})
17:46	en590	ok thank you
18:01	sdegutis	,((:a 2) {:a 2} (:a 2))
18:01	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause nil\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.NullPointerException\n :message nil\n :at [sandbox$eval25 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval25 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval25 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 6943]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 6906]\n [clojure.core$eval invokeStatic "core...
18:01	sdegutis	wait what
18:03	sdegutis	,(:a {:b 2} 3)
18:03	clojurebot	3
18:03	sdegutis	,(:a {:b 2} nil)
18:03	clojurebot	nil
18:03	sdegutis	,(nil {:b 2} nil)
18:03	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Can't call nil"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6891]}\n {:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Can't call nil"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6876]}]\n :t...
18:03	sdegutis	what??
18:03	sdegutis	,(nil {:b 2})
18:03	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Can't call nil"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6891]}\n {:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Can't call nil"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6876]}]\n :t...
18:03	sdegutis	oh
18:03	sdegutis	hahahahaha
18:04	lazybot	sdegutis: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
18:04	sdegutis	lazybot: LAZYBOT< YOURE ALIVE!!!
18:04	sdegutis	ITS REALLY YOU!!
18:07	dxlr8r	man, back to python for scripting some stuff. feels like going back to the stone age :/
18:16	uptown	their stupid tricks are worse than our stupid tricks
18:21	justin_smith	uptown: the real question is which programming community has the best stupid tricks - my bet is on assembler
18:22	justin_smith	the difference is, when you are programming assembler, "stupid tricks" are also known as "programming"
18:22	xemdetia	flat memory model! tricks your boss will /hate/!
18:22	justin_smith	haha
18:25	uptown	of course, but it's messy down there by definition
18:26	eriktjacobsen	or extremely clean :) Always know where every byte of memory is and exactly what instructions are running. Higher level is way messier in that respect. Simple loop might end up invoking thousands of objects and silly subroutines
18:27	eriktjacobsen	There is some comfort in having basically 100% confidence (assuming you understand your system calls) of whats going on
18:29	sdegutis	We are now fully upgraded for Datomic in Production and get to use all the fun new features <3
18:30	xemdetia	eriktjacobsen, I think my favourite thing is going through java trace files
18:31	xemdetia	or finding a jvm stacktrace cut off after 200 lines with 160 trimmed
18:32	uptown	eriktjacobsen: sure, but you only use that perfect knowledge to start abstracting away messy details so you can write in peace
19:12	{blake}	What controls which lein profile is used?
19:13	{blake}	Ooh. lein/default, huh...
19:17	en590	Hi is it correct to think about maps and sets as unordered, and vectors and lists as ordered?
19:17	jsonp__	unless you're using an ordered set ;)
19:17	{blake}	en590: Yes. Although there are ordered versions of set.
19:20	en590	thank you
19:31	en590	what does \a mean for example
19:31	amalloy	&(class \a)
19:31	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Character
19:31	justin_smith	,(set "hello")
19:31	clojurebot	#{\e \h \l \o}
19:32	en590	neat
19:32	en590	,(hash-map "hello")
19:32	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No value supplied for key: hello"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No value supplied for key: hello"\n :at [clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap create "PersistentHashMap.java" 77]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap create "PersistentHashMap.java" 77]\n [clojure.core$hash_map invokeStatic "core.clj" 374]\n [clojure.core$hash_map doInvoke...
19:32	en590	,(hash-map "hello" "ok")
19:32	clojurebot	{"hello" "ok"}
19:33	en590	,("hello" {"hello" "ok"})
19:33	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval97 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval97 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval97 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 6...
19:33	en590	,(:hello {:hello "ok"})
19:33	clojurebot	"ok"
19:33	justin_smith	en590: the special syntax where :key can act as a function is a special thing about :keywords
19:34	justin_smith	en590: the compiler always starts with what's in the calling position to figure out what to do - so even though the arg is a hash-map that doesn't make the string do a lookup
19:34	justin_smith	,(ifn? :OK)
19:34	clojurebot	true
19:34	justin_smith	,(ifn? "OK")
19:34	clojurebot	false
19:35	justin_smith	that's the difference - one follows the function interface, the other does not
19:35	en590	,(let [:a #(+ 1 1)] (:a)
19:35	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:35	en590	,(let [:a #(+ 1 1)] (:a))
19:35	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.Exception\n :message "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :at [clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]\n [clojure.core$let invokeStatic "core.clj" 4312]\n [clojure.core$let doInvoke "core.clj" -1]\n [clojure.lang.RestFn invoke "RestFn.jav...
19:36	en590	,(let [:a (#(+ 1 1))] (:a))
19:36	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.Exception\n :message "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :at [clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]\n [clojure.core$let invokeStatic "core.clj" 4312]\n [clojure.core$let doInvoke "core.clj" -1]\n [clojure.lang.RestFn invoke "RestFn.jav...
19:37	en590	,(let [:a 2] (:a))
19:37	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.Exception\n :message "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :at [clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]\n [clojure.core$let invokeStatic "core.clj" 4312]\n [clojure.core$let doInvoke "core.clj" -1]\n [clojure.lang.RestFn invoke "RestFn.jav...
19:38	en590	,(let ["a" 2] (:a))
19:38	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unsupported binding form: a"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.Exception\n :message "Unsupported binding form: a"\n :at [clojure.core$destructure$pb__4924 invoke "core.clj" 4291]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.core$destructure$pb__4924 invoke "core.clj" 4291]\n [clojure.core$destructure$process_entry__4940 invoke "core.clj" 4297]\n [clojure.core$reduce1 invokeStatic "core.clj" 912]\n [c...
19:38	en590	,(let [a 2] (:a))
19:38	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :a"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :a"\n :at [clojure.lang.Keyword throwArity "Keyword.java" 97]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Keyword throwArity "Keyword.java" 97]\n [clojure.lang.Keyword invoke "Keyword.java" 110]\n [sandbox$eval303 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE"...
19:38	en590	,(let [a 2] a)
19:38	clojurebot	2
19:38	en590	yay
19:39	en590	,(let [:a 2] :a)
19:39	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.Exception\n :message "Unsupported binding key: :a"\n :at [clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.core$destructure invokeStatic "core.clj" 4300]\n [clojure.core$let invokeStatic "core.clj" 4312]\n [clojure.core$let doInvoke "core.clj" -1]\n [clojure.lang.RestFn invoke "RestFn.jav...
19:39	en590	hmm why doesn't this work?
19:42	amalloy	en590: only symbols can be bound to values
19:42	amalloy	it's like (let [5 2] 5) - 5 is a value, not a name
19:43	amalloy	likewise :a
19:43	en590	how are keywords values and not names?
19:44	amalloy	well. most stuff in clojure is values
19:45	amalloy	symbols are values too, but constructs like let and fn allow you to use them as names for locals
19:46	en590	ok neat thank you
21:13	neoncontrails	I'm curious... why is set/union so much slower than brute force in this case? http://pastebin.com/NEZ94hsY
21:13	en590	Hi how do I use seq to check if array is not empty?
21:13	en590	,(every? seq '(1 2 3))
21:14	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long"\n :at [clojure.lang.RT seqFrom "RT.java" 535]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT seqFrom "RT.java" 535]\n [clojure.lang.RT seq "RT.java" 516]\n [clojure.core$seq__4116 invokeStatic "core.clj" 137]\n [clojure.co...
21:15	merl1n	,(seq '(1 2 3))
21:15	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
21:15	merl1n	,(seq '())
21:15	clojurebot	nil
21:15	merl1n	(I have no idea what I am doing btw)
21:15	neoncontrails	(some? (seq? '(1 2 3)))
21:15	neoncontrails	,(some? (seq? '(1 2 3)))
21:15	clojurebot	true
21:15	en590	I read that seq is how you test if collection is not empty
21:17	neoncontrails	whoops, I made a typo
21:17	neoncontrails	,(some? (seq '(1 2 3))
21:17	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:17	neoncontrails	,(some? (seq '(1 2 3)))
21:17	clojurebot	true
21:18	justin_smith	,(some? :anything)
21:18	clojurebot	true
21:18	justin_smith	,(some? even (range))
21:18	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: even in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: even in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: even in this co...
21:18	justin_smith	,(some? even? (range))
21:18	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/some?"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message "Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core/some?"\n :at [clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]\n [clojure.lang.AFn invoke "AFn.java" 36]\n [sandbox$eval214 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval21...
21:18	justin_smith	never mind
21:18	justin_smith	,(some even? (range))
21:18	clojurebot	true
21:19	justin_smith	that's what I had it confused with
21:22	neoncontrails	Still curious why brute force is significantly more efficient than set/union here... can anyone explain? http://pastebin.com/NEZ94hsY
21:22	en590	how do i check if collection is not empty?
21:22	justin_smith	,(boolean (not-empty ""))
21:22	clojurebot	false
21:22	justin_smith	,(boolean (not-empty "a"))
21:22	clojurebot	true
21:22	neoncontrails	also (some? [coll])
21:23	surtn	,(seq "")
21:23	clojurebot	nil
21:23	surtn	,(seq {})
21:23	clojurebot	nil
21:24	en590	ah so if i convert anything that's not empty or nil into boolean value...it comes back true?
21:24	en590	,(boolean 5)
21:24	clojurebot	true
21:24	en590	,(boolean '())
21:24	clojurebot	true
21:24	en590	=(
21:24	justin_smith	en590: that's why I used not-empty
21:24	justin_smith	,(boolean (not-empty ()))
21:24	clojurebot	false
21:25	en590	(not-empty '())
21:25	en590	,(not-empty '())
21:25	clojurebot	nil
21:26	surtn	you genearally don't need to force things to booleans - lots of those functions (like not-empty or seq), return nil or truthy values
21:26	neoncontrails	@en590 I'm just a clojure n00b, but I think (some? [coll]) is a better predicate for that
21:26	neoncontrails	,(some? '())
21:26	clojurebot	true
21:26	justin_smith	,(some? ())
21:26	clojurebot	true
21:26	neoncontrails	oh wait
21:26	justin_smith	neoncontrails: which is not what you want :)
21:26	neoncontrails	no, nevermind, that's terrible
21:26	neoncontrails	haha yes. Good call ;)
21:26	en590	,(true? '())
21:26	clojurebot	false
21:26	justin_smith	,(some? [])
21:26	clojurebot	true
21:26	en590	,(false? '())
21:26	clojurebot	false
21:27	justin_smith	so you definitely want not-empty, and maybe the explicit boolean cast too
21:27	neoncontrails	TIL. Thanks!
21:27	justin_smith	seq has the same consequences, but if what I am testing for is non-emptiness I find that not-empty is quite explicit about that
21:27	en590	,(boolean (boolean( not-empty ( '())))
21:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:28	en590	,(boolean (boolean( not-empty ( '()))))
21:28	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval263 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval263 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval263 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n ...
21:28	justin_smith	en590: too many () on that
21:28	justin_smith	,(boolean (not-empty ()))
21:28	clojurebot	false
21:28	en590	,(boolean (true))
21:28	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval311 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval311 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval311 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.ja...
21:28	justin_smith	en590: remember () is not for grouping!
21:28	justin_smith	and true is not a function
21:29	en590	(boolean true)
21:29	en590	,(boolean true)
21:29	clojurebot	true
21:29	neoncontrails	So wait. Follow up question: why (not-empty [seq]) instead of (empty? [seq])
21:29	en590	oh yeah thats right
21:29	neoncontrails	,(empty? '())
21:29	clojurebot	true
21:29	justin_smith	neoncontrails: well if you wanted to test for the opposite condition, sure
21:29	neoncontrails	It seems like the explicit boolean cast would be useful usually, wouldn't it?
21:30	justin_smith	though I guess (not (empty? x)) might be better then (boolean (not-empty x))
21:30	en590	,(not-empty [1 2 3])
21:30	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
21:30	neoncontrails	(and closer to idiomatic scheme/lisp too in my experience, for what it's worth)
21:30	en590	according to the website it says use seq for the opposite of empty?
21:31	en590	but that isn't explicit and seems like shit
21:31	en590	'Please use the idiom (seq x) rather than (not (empty? x))'
21:32	en590	,(seq [1 2 3])
21:32	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
21:32	neoncontrails	That's extremely interesting. There must be a reason why (seq x) is preferred, but I don't see one
21:32	merl1n	,(not (empty? [1 2 3]))
21:32	clojurebot	true
21:33	en590	why isn't there a not-empty?
21:33	merl1n	hmm, how is that the same?
21:33	merl1n	(empty? [1 2 3])
21:33	merl1n	,(empty? [1 2 3])
21:33	clojurebot	false
21:34	surtn	neoncontrails: it's so you can use it once you determine it's not empty
21:34	surtn	,(when-let [stuff [1 2 3]] (reduce + stuff))
21:34	clojurebot	6
21:34	surtn	,(when-let [stuff []] (reduce + stuff))
21:34	clojurebot	0
21:34	merl1n	how is seq opposite of empty when it doesn't return boolean
21:35	neoncontrails	I think this might be a lispy thing. You don't really need the opposite of a boolean predicate, you just (if [pred? seq] #true-case #false-case) to dispatch on the false case
21:36	surtn	seq isn't the opposite of empty? it's just you can use it for that type of thing. Idiom, for sure. There's more than one way to do it.
21:36	neoncontrails	(if (seq '()) 1 2))
21:37	neoncontrails	,(if (seq '()) 1 2))
21:37	clojurebot	2
21:37	merl1n	(not (empty? ..)) seems more readable though
21:37	surtn	depends what you're used to, I suppose
21:37	en590	sorryi dc
21:38	surtn	(not (empty? c)) will just return a boolean though - not very useful
21:38	merl1n	it is useful if that is what you need
21:38	surtn	ok, sure, say you were writing a predicate function
21:39	surtn	why do you check a collection for emptiness though? often it's to do something with that collection.
21:40	en590	,(if (seq '()) "is true/not empty" "is false/empty, because seq returned nil")
21:40	clojurebot	"is false/empty, because seq returned nil"
21:41	merl1n	,(filter (comp not empty?) [[1 2] [] [3 4]])
21:41	clojurebot	([1 2] [3 4])
21:41	en590	,(if (seq '(1 2 3)) "is true/not empty" "is false/empty, because seq returned nil")
21:41	clojurebot	"is true/not empty"
21:42	TEttinger	,(filter seq [[1 2] [] [3 4]])
21:42	clojurebot	([1 2] [3 4])
21:43	merl1n	I think (comp not empty) conveys the intent better
21:43	TEttinger	,(filter seq [[1 2] 0 [3 4]]) ; fails too
21:43	jeaye	Agreed
21:43	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
21:43	TEttinger	,(filter (comp not emoty?) [[1 2] 0 [3 4]]) ; fails too
21:43	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: emoty? in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: emoty? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: emoty? in t...
21:43	neoncontrails	en590: okay got it. Contrast the following:
21:44	TEttinger	,(filter (comp not empty?) [[1 2] 0 [3 4]])
21:44	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
21:44	TEttinger	hm
21:44	neoncontrails	,((fn [x] (if (empty? x) (reduce + x))) [1 2 3])
21:44	clojurebot	nil
21:44	neoncontrails	,((fn [x] (if (empty? x) (reduce + x))) [])
21:44	clojurebot	0
21:44	TEttinger	interesting
21:44	neoncontrails	,((fn [y] add1 [x] (if (seq x) (reduce + x))) [1 2 3])
21:45	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: add1 in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: add1 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: add1 in this co...
21:45	TEttinger	,((fn [x] (if (empty? x) (reduce #(* %1 %2) x))) [])
21:45	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox/eval51/fn--52/fn--53"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox/eval51/fn--52/fn--53"\n :at [clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]\n [clojure.lang.AFn invoke "AFn.java" 28]\n [clojure.lang.PersistentVector r...
21:45	TEttinger	need parens around arg grounds, neoncontrails
21:45	TEttinger	arg groups
21:45	neoncontrails	Sorry, this is more confusing. I'll just give you the two defs and you can play with them
21:45	neoncontrails	(defn add1 [x] (if (empty? x) (reduce + x)))
21:46	TEttinger	,(defn add1 [x] (if (empty? x) (reduce + x)))
21:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/add1
21:46	TEttinger	you can def here :)
21:46	TEttinger	it lasts 10 minutes or so
21:46	neoncontrails	,(defn add1-good [x] (if (seq x) (reduce + x)))
21:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/add1-good
21:46	TEttinger	and you may have wanted not empty?
21:46	neoncontrails	,(defn add1-bad [x] (if (empty? x) (reduce + x)))
21:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/add1-bad
21:46	neoncontrails	(add1-bad [])
21:47	TEttinger	,(add1-bad [])
21:47	clojurebot	0
21:47	TEttinger	,(add1-good [])
21:47	clojurebot	nil
21:47	justin_smith	,(reduce + nil)
21:47	clojurebot	0
21:47	justin_smith	,(reduce * nil)
21:47	clojurebot	1
21:47	jeaye	seq and empty? are negated here, neoncontrails
21:47	merl1n	is there a comp equivalent that composes functions in reverse?
21:47	en590	mann you guys are so smart
21:47	neoncontrails	jeaye: pardon, can you elaborate?
21:47	en590	i am copy pasting all this code to look over tomorrow morning lol
21:48	TEttinger	,(defn pmoc [& args] (apply comp (reverse args)))
21:48	clojurebot	#'sandbox/pmoc
21:48	surtn	en590: you shouldn't confuse smart with familiar :)
21:48	TEttinger	,(filter (pmoc empty? not) [1 2 3])
21:48	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
21:48	TEttinger	,(filter (pmoc empty? not) [[1 2 3]])
21:48	clojurebot	([1 2 3])
21:49	TEttinger	I think I screwed up somehwere
21:49	TEttinger	,(filter (pmoc empty? not) [[1 2 3] [] [1 2]])
21:49	clojurebot	([1 2 3] [1 2])
21:49	neoncontrails	TEttinger: what's the English translation of 'pmoc'?
21:50	jeaye	comp reversed
21:50	neoncontrails	Okay I don't normally LOL, but... LOL. :)
21:50	neoncontrails	Good one, Rich
21:53	TEttinger	I think PMOC is likely one of the many perl-related acronyms, like CPAN
21:53	TEttinger	or perl 6's current GLR (great list refactoring)
21:53	justin_smith	TEttinger: pmoc is for mocking in drug testing scenarios (employee is on drugs? substitute this clean mock)
21:53	neoncontrails	That wouldn't surprise me. Larry Wall is weirdly hilarious
21:54	TEttinger	I think it's kinda entertaining that perl 6 code interleaves normal-looking perl code with stuff like .WHAT and .HOW
21:55	justin_smith	TEttinger: much code .WOW
21:55	TEttinger	but there's some serious brilliance/madness in the unicode handling. that stuff is impressive.
21:55	TEttinger	\c[SIGN OF THE HORNS] is the same as typing in a literal unicode emoji introduced in Unicode standard 8.0. Java 9 will be on Unicode 7.0 next year.
21:57	TEttinger	\c[APOSTROPHE] is the same as an escaped ' but behaves correctly even in misbehaving syntax highlighters
21:57	TEttinger	then again... Visual Studio 2015 is literally incapable of compiling one of the unicode data files that this implementation of perl 6 needs. it stack overflows in the parser.
21:59	neoncontrails	My favorite morsel of perl trivia is this poem
21:59	neoncontrails	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Perl
21:59	TEttinger	oh and did you all know that openjdk 9 actually isn't that hard to compile anymore, even on windows?
21:59	TEttinger	it's kinda shocked me
21:59	en590	hey just for fun is there a clearer way to increment all the values of a collection than this:
22:00	en590	,(map #(inc %) [1 2 3])
22:00	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
22:00	TEttinger	,(map inc [1 2 3])
22:00	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
22:00	en590	shit lol thank you
22:01	TEttinger	I have several versions of a probably now-outdated openjdk 9 for windows x86 and x64, and yes, it actually does start up faster than java 8
22:01	TEttinger	they're... they're actually doing something good with core java. I'm as stunned as you are.
22:01	TEttinger	after like 5 years on java 6... I had lost all hope
22:03	en590	dang function programming is amazing
22:03	justin_smith	sure is
22:03	en590	after seeing solution to problem it usually seems obvious and in my face lol
22:03	justin_smith	that could mean you are learning
22:03	neoncontrails	That's a really common feeling in FP
22:04	en590	if i can just learn all the core functions i will be unstoppable
22:05	justin_smith	en590: have you looked at http://conj.io ?
22:05	justin_smith	en590: if you can learn that page, and a few libs for your domain... you're going to be pretty much set
22:06	neoncontrails	That's a little easier said than done, I think. Mastery of FP primitives lies in figuring out how to compose them, which takes a helluvalot of practice
22:06	neoncontrails	(this is my own personal opinion)
22:07	en590	i like this page it has a good ui
22:07	en590	thank u justin_smith
22:08	justin_smith	en590: the page was made by our friend arrdem
22:08	justin_smith	(inc arrdem)
22:08	lazybot	⇒ 46
22:09	neoncontrails	heh
22:09	neoncontrails	(arrdem)
22:09	neoncontrails	,(arrdem)
22:09	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: arrdem in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: arrdem in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: arrdem in t...
22:09	neoncontrails	,arrdem
22:09	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: arrdem in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: arrdem in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: arrdem in t...
22:10	justin_smith	neoncontrails: it's a pseudo-syntax for lazybot
22:10	justin_smith	(identity arrdem)
22:10	lazybot	arrdem has karma 46.
22:10	justin_smith	(identity justin_smith)
22:10	lazybot	justin_smith has karma 290.
22:10	justin_smith	(identity amalloy)
22:10	lazybot	amalloy has karma 294.
22:10	en590	(identify en590)
22:10	neoncontrails	Haha, I'm liking this community more and more.
22:10	justin_smith	en590: it's identity
22:11	en590	(identity eno789)
22:11	lazybot	eno789 has karma 0.
22:11	neoncontrails	(inc eno789)
22:11	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:12	en590	(inc eno789)
22:12	lazybot	⇒ 2
22:14	en590	all is right in the world now ok thank you everyone cya
22:16	justin_smith	arrdem: we were admiring your work
22:16	arrdem	yes yes but you were admiring the WRONG WORK
22:16	justin_smith	is this a thing we can all use?
22:16	arrdem	if you want to deal with skummet
22:17	arrdem	I need to start my own clojure fork with just that change
22:17	neoncontrails	arrdem: what's the case for using a strictly-tagged subset of Clojure versus, say, Haskell?
22:18	arrdem	neoncontrails: strictly tagged clojure is just a compilation mode for better interop performance, it isn't a real type system like Haskell.
22:19	neoncontrails	Ooh, that makes sense. Got it.
22:19	justin_smith	arrdem: so tl;dr I can use strictly tagged clojure and that would mean writing less of my perf-critical code in java?
22:19	arrdem	justin_smith: that was the idea
22:19	justin_smith	v. cool
22:23	TEttinger	I personally don't mind writing perf-critical code in java. it gives me a chance to be stupid and still program
22:23	neoncontrails	Random question, is there a Clojure analog of Java's abstract classes? (e.g. "abstract class Foo { ... }")
22:24	TEttinger	"hm, I could rewrite this ridiculous loop to use multiple functions... nah, labeled break/continue should be fine and this 200 line loop should do A-OK"
22:24	neoncontrails	I learned Java immediately after SICP, and I could never figure out how abstract classes related to anything I was familiar with from Scheme
22:25	TEttinger	there's protocols, which correspond to interfaces I suppose
22:25	TEttinger	I have never honestly written a protocol
22:25	arrdem	protocols are pretty neat
22:34	arrdem	A little late, but wrt writing Java for perf, Clojure interop is already practically Java in sexprs so I don't personally see a compelling reason to use a different tool when we have all the same type information available
22:37	TEttinger	arrdem: I'm not entirely sure why, but some of the algorithms that I have written in both clojure and java seem to have significant perf differences. the type of algorithm is 2d-array-based, using primitive doubles
22:37	TEttinger	it's possible clojure has caught up now
22:38	TEttinger	(it's still kinda annoying to need type hints everywhere and need to avoid local assignment to avoid boxing)
22:38	arrdem	TEttinger: with amalloy and my strictly tagged changes, strictly hinted Clojure code should almost be byte for byte the same as Java implementations.
22:38	TEttinger	badass.
22:39	TEttinger	is it planned for 1.8 in however many years?
22:39	arrdem	well 1.8 is supposed to be this fall or something
22:39	arrdem	but no we've gotten no "this is release candidate material" or otherwise feedback.
22:40	neoncontrails	Speaking of efficiency/imperative interop
22:40	neoncontrails	(defn answer2 [maxrange]
22:40	neoncontrails	(reduce + (filter #(or (zero? (mod % 3))
22:40	neoncontrails	(zero? (mod % 5)))
22:40	neoncontrails	(range maxrange))))
22:40	neoncontrails	err
22:40	arrdem	neoncontrails: STOP PASTING USE REFHEEAP
22:41	arrdem	*refheap.com
22:41	neoncontrails	OKAY SORRY
22:41	arrdem	sorry for caps, wanted to catch you before you retried :P
22:41	arrdem	we have an ad-hoc one line paste limit around here
22:41	scriptor	fizzbuzz?
22:41	neoncontrails	https://www.refheap.com/108694
22:42	neoncontrails	Ehh, kinda. Project Euler #1
22:42	neoncontrails	Which is basically fizzbuzz, but with an added reduce() step
22:43	neoncontrails	I'm curious, did I goof something in my answer3 defn, or is set/union actually a lot slower than brute forcing it?
22:46	TEttinger	,(let [maxrange 100] (reduce + (distinct (concat (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:46	clojurebot	2318
22:46	neoncontrails	Anecdotally, I've noticed set/union in Python is approximately an order of magnitude faster than reducing a filtered generator
22:47	TEttinger	,(let [maxrange 1000] (reduce + (distinct (concat (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:47	clojurebot	233168
22:47	neoncontrails	Oh wow, that's costly
22:48	neoncontrails	,(time (let [maxrange 1000] (reduce + (distinct (concat (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5))))))
22:48	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 23.881238 msecs"\n233168
22:48	TEttinger	,(let [maxrange 1000] (reduce + (distinct (into [] (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.LongRange cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.LongRange cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [clojure.core$transduce invokeStatic "core.clj" 6575]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.core$transduce invokeStatic "core.clj" 6575]\n [clojure.core$into invokeStatic "core.clj" 6591]\n [clojure.core$into...
22:48	TEttinger	,(let [maxrange 1000] (reduce + (distinct (into (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:48	clojurebot	233168
22:48	TEttinger	,(time (let [maxrange 1000] (reduce + (distinct (into (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5))))))
22:48	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 24.208726 msecs"\n233168
22:48	neoncontrails	,(defn answer3 [maxrange] (reduce + (cs/union (set (range 3 maxrange 3)) (set (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No such namespace: cs"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: cs, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6704]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "No such namespace: cs"\n :at [clojure.lang.Util runtimeException "Util.java" 221]}]\n :tr...
22:48	TEttinger	ha slower
22:49	TEttinger	need to type it out or require here, not sure if require works
22:49	neoncontrails	,(defn answer3 [maxrange] (reduce + (clojure.set/union (set (range 3 maxrange 3)) (set (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:49	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.set"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6891]}\n {:type java.lang.ClassNotFoundException\n :message "clojure.set"\n :at [java.net.URLClassLoader$1 run "URLClassLoader.java" 366]}]\n :trace\n [[ja...
22:49	neoncontrails	nevermind, I'll REPL it
22:50	TEttinger	,(require 'clojure.set)
22:50	clojurebot	nil
22:50	TEttinger	,(defn answer3 [maxrange] (reduce + (clojure.set/union (set (range 3 maxrange 3)) (set (range 5 maxrange 5)))))
22:50	clojurebot	#'sandbox/answer3
22:50	TEttinger	,(answer3 1000)
22:50	clojurebot	233168
22:50	TEttinger	,(time (answer3 1000))
22:50	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 3.914105 msecs"\n233168
22:50	TEttinger	woah
22:50	neoncontrails	Okay yeah, wow
22:50	TEttinger	this also depends on the JIT
22:51	TEttinger	which is very hard to measure
22:51	TEttinger	we've definitely hit the JIT compiler limit for some of range's internal stuff
22:51	neoncontrails	My local test says it's about an order of magnitude slower (4.29ms vs. 0.49ms)
22:51	TEttinger	it's possible the range just is getting JITed now
22:52	TEttinger	,(time (let [maxrange 1000] (reduce + (distinct (into (range 3 maxrange 3) (range 5 maxrange 5))))))
22:52	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 13.266595 msecs"\n233168
22:52	TEttinger	yep
22:52	TEttinger	remember that was 24 earlier?
22:52	TEttinger	welcome to JVM benchmarking crazyland
22:52	neoncontrails	Interesting
22:53	neoncontrails	The question in my mind remains, so, this appears to be comparable to the brute-force solution, efficiency-wise
22:53	TEttinger	the JIT is top-notch for long-running functions, but microbenchmarks are very hard to predict
22:53	neoncontrails	why is it not faster?
22:57	camm_v222	Hi guys, I want to create an app on Clojure for Android, but I have a few problems trying to download Android SDK (for Fedora GNU/Linux). I can't download the SDK!!! I know it sounds silly but I just get on a loop trying to download it from here ( https://developer.android.com/intl/zh-cn/sdk/installing/index.html?pkg=tools ). May you help me, please?
23:02	TEttinger	camm_v222: just curious, are you intentionally downloading the chinese version, and could there be uh blockage issues?
23:04	TEttinger	camm_v222: there's some link confusion on their site. https://developer.android.com/intl/zh-cn/sdk/index.html#Other
23:08	camm_v222	TEttinger Yeah, I see, and I don't know what to do. It's the only official page that I've found to download the Android SDK.
23:09	TEttinger	I wonder if Fedora has it in a non-free repo
23:09	TEttinger	or even a free repo
23:10	camm_v222	Well, I'm going to search a repo for Fedora, it's my last chance. Thanks TEttinger.
23:11	TEttinger	hm not quite actually
23:11	TEttinger	I'm downloading it and I think I may be able to host the (large) archive somewhere, like mega or some other large-file host
23:14	arrdem	would be happy to host shasums or something else
23:46	andyf	I'm using some low-level library that shows details of memory layout inside of Java objects, and can also return the current address of a Java object. I know Java objects can be moved during garbage collection, but I'm seeing evidence that either (a) when you use the -XX:+PrintGCDetails command line option to Oracle's JVM, it doesn't print every time a GC occurs, or (b) objects can move even when no GC has occurred. Anyone have an
23:47	andyf	That is really a more Java-specific rather than Clojure-specific question, but the context is that I'm working on some utilities in Clojure to help calculate the size in memory of data structures.
23:49	TEttinger	your question cut off, andyf
23:49	TEttinger	...no GC has occurred. Anyone have an <cut off>
23:49	TEttinger	andyf, this sounds very useful btw
23:50	andyf	Sorry, that was long. Ending was "Anyone have any knowledge of this?"
23:51	justin_smith	andyf: is hotspot allowed to move data around?
23:51	andyf	It scratches an itch of mine. Path-copying in immutable data structures is useful, but it is nice to be able to quantify "how much sharing usually happens between x and (conj x y), or between my-map and (assoc my-map x y)?"
23:52	andyf	justin_smith: Any time there is a compacting garbage collector involved, data can move during a collection. And that is the default for most JVMs, I think.
23:52	andyf	It is invisible to any program running on the JVM, as long as you don't use some unsafe method to peek at the addresses.
23:52	justin_smith	andyf: I mean the optimization process, aside from gc
23:53	justin_smith	I understand the concept of compacting gc, yes
23:53	andyf	justin_smith: Not sure I understand your question, then. Do you mean: is hotspot allowed to reformat the internals of instances of a particular class while it is running?
23:54	justin_smith	andyf: I could imagine an optimizer that says "these things in the heap will be used near each other, we can help cache performance by putting them near each other"
23:54	justin_smith	andyf: this would move things while gc is not occuring, is why I ask
23:55	andyf	justin_smith: I'm not aware of anything like that done intentionally by any existing GCs. Compacting collectors may end up doing that by accident, or by the fact that objects allocated near each other in time might be more likely to have references to each other.
23:55	justin_smith	andyf: I am not talking about the gc, I am talking about the hotspot optimizer
23:56	justin_smith	andyf: you said "things moved when gc did not occur"
23:56	justin_smith	I suggested another reason a thing might move in the heap (hypothetically)
23:57	andyf	justin_smith: Got your meaning now. I've not heard of such a feature.
23:58	justin_smith	andyf: OK. IIRC this is one of the big optimization features OCaml uses. I find OCaml interesting because their optimizations are powerful while not being very clever (contrast Haskell)
23:59	TEttinger	might also be useful to check every java version you can to see how they perform differently, once you get this working